We got a fascinating reader email from an eighth year attorney on the partnership track…
I am actively trying to build my client base, including going to lunches with local CEOs of start-up companies, etc. Today I went on a lunch with a 50ish CEO that I met at a seminar my firm hosted. During this lunch meeting at a local restaurant, he proceeded to make a comment about how attractive I was five different times during an hour long conversation. Whenever he would do it, I would just quickly move on to another topic and not acknowledge the statement. By the time I got back to the office, I was livid. I can’t imagine any of my male colleagues having to experience a situation even remotely similar to this. Here, I am trying to build a client base for myself and my firm and in doing so, I’m reminded that I’m looked at as an attractive women first and a lawyer second. Any thoughts/comments on how I can deal with this issue in the future? Thanks in advance!
Eeeeesh. We’ll say it again: eeesh. We’re curious to hear what the readers are going to have to say about this one. (Pictured: probably what your would-be client is hoping you’ll say…) First, we would say that you have two goals at these kinds of meetings. The first goal: get the guy as a client. The second goal: not ruin your relationship with whoever introduced you to this guy. And it’s okay if you decide halfway through lunch that you do not WANT to work with this guy, and just want to get out of there without dropkicking him. After all, the kind of politeness and interest you might show to a potential client will not be the same you show to “business acquaintance of a friend.” For example, after about the third time he mentioned that you were attractive, we might say something very calm such as, “let’s stick to the topic, please.” If he still persisted, we’d lean back and start to show disinterest, or use a break in the conversation to perhaps say something like, “Oh, this reminds me of the time __” and rattle off a few of your professional accomplishments. After about the fifth time, we might invent an emergency (preferably one showing how desperately you’re needed at the office by another client) to get the heck out of there. You have to know your own tolerance for these kinds of jerks, and how much aggravation you’re willing to put up with for a potential client.
That said, you should be very mindful of your body language and other triggers that might send someone the wrong idea that it’s a date. For example, be very clear with him at the start of it about why you’re at lunch. Second, there can be overlap between “I’m a professional who’s interested” body language and “I’m a woman who’s interested” body language, such as leaning forward to show interest. For women who are interested in flirting, there are a number of other things to do to convey interest — touching your hair and body, mimicking his behavior (to suggest that you’re on the same wavelength), turning your body towards his, exposing your wrists — try to gauge yourself for how many of these things you’re doing unconsciously, because you could be sending out “I’m flirting” signals without even realizing it.
Readers, what are your tips for dealing with this kind of situation?
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It seems to me the best way to deal with most of these situations is just to not take them too seriously. (The judge who ignores you after you turned down his date is another issue. I don’t have a good suggestion for that one except to find a more seasoned female lawyer who’s gone before him and see what she says.) So what a guy says you’re pretty? He’s an ass and probably socially awkward (if we’re talking about lawyers, he definitely is). If it’s a power thing, he just made himself less powerful by showing that he can’t be a professional. If someone makes a mistake and thinks you want a date date not a business lunch, well isn’t he the fool. I’m wondering where everyone lives. I live and work in D.C. and I just haven’t had these situations. I’m not unattractive and get hit on in social situations, but never in professional settings (at least, not when it was unwelcome). I don’t want to blame the victim, but I wonder if it’s demeanor. If you seem timid or flirty (and I know a lot of women whose main form of interaction with men is flirty even if they don’t realize it) it might be taken the wrong way. What might be part of it, and isn’t fair, is that I’m very tall and so just don’t come across as little the way some women do.
I agree that one wouldn’t want to blame the victim. While there may be steps to make your lack of interest absolutely clear, I hope no one thinks it’s their own fault for not taking those steps. It’s unfortunate that we have to put in extra effort to deter the unprofessional among us, but making that effort might help.
I completely agree that he’s shown himself unprofessional, so you should feel good about your own superior professionalism and move on.
With guys like that, it might help to be blunt and say something like, “Thank you. I’m also an excellent attorney. I invited you to lunch today to discuss…,” and bring it back to business. Hopefully, it will occur to him that you are only interested in exploring a professional relationship. Somehow, you have to find a way to be blunt about your intentions without bruising his ego.
I think there’s guys who don’t know how to relate to a woman other than to compliment her attractiveness, but mean nothing more by it than a compliment. I don’t mind those guys and I say thank you and move on with business. I’m in my late 30s and I find some younger women are already so defensive coming into a male dominated field (litigation) that any compliment is seen by them as sexist. I’m not threatened or insulted when one of my senior male attorneys says I look great in a new suit, because they also give me wonderful cases to work up and try and exceptional face time with their clients. Anyway, I don’t think assuming every compliment is a come on is the right response and it’ll kill your career because the men in power (and they are still in power in most firms) will be scared to death of you.
However (I’m a lawyer, I have to use “however”), there are the sleazy guys that hit you up at conferences by calling your hotel room at 1 in the morning even though you’re married. Yeah, it’s happened. Those deserve whatever snarky remark or cold shoulder you can throw at them no matter who they are. You don’t want a guy like that to be your partner, your boss or your client. They’re simply trouble and not to be trusted.
Really, just decide where your personal line in the sand is at and stick to it. You’ll get a reputation in your business and social groups (good or bad) and you’ll find most men will come to respect (or fear) your boundaries and leave you alone. Men gossip just like the ladies, good or bad, it’ll get around.
It seems like the women who have trouble addressing being asked out or dealing with remarks about their appearance by a supervisor or a client are also women who don’t tend to have a lot of experience dealing with unwanted advances in the ordinary course and outside of a professional environment. Maybe the skill-set that these individuals need to develop isn’t a work skill… it’s more of a life skill? Or to be more blunt and also assert a more cynical view: in my experience at a nyc BigLaw firm, vociferous complaints about inappropriate comments are thinly veiled reminders by the complainant that someone found her attractive. Put differently, when a woman raises this problem, especially for the first time after eight years working eight years on a partnership track, she isn’t seeking relief for an ongoing problem — either she’s bragging, or she’s never been told she’s pretty before.
Thicker skin, ladies. Thicker skin.
Jennifer, it bothers me when people constantly hit on me in a professional setting and I’ve been told I’m pretty my whole life, almost to my detriment. (I’ve been getting the, “you don’t need to work/you’ll never need to work” comments since I was seriously, 6.) And no, I am not bragging. I’ve actually found that the women who complain about these things deal with unnecessary comments about their appearance on a much more regular basis and the comments finally accumulate and one particularly persistent person can push them over the edge, so to speak.
Also, I wonder if these differences in attitude have to do with whether or not a woman lives in a big city and how much she walks from place to place. (Hear me out on this one.) I know, for me, when I lived in a much smaller city (a suburb of Cleveland) and drove nearly everywhere, comments from men about my appearance, etc. in a professional setting didn’t bother me nearly as much as they do now that I live in D.C., where I am harassed by random men on the street every single day. Again, I think there’s a bit of a cumulative effect.
Jennifer – I don’t agree. No amount of thick skin is going to make these kinds of comments from potential clients, bosses and coworkers less hurtful to one’s career. Getting clients is a skill that every lawyer needs to develop. If most of the clients are male and female lawyer gets hit on when trying to develop clients this is a big problem for women lawyers. My old boss was a successful female lawyer (happily married with kids) who was great at getting clients but she had this problem all the time. At one point she dropped her firm’s biggest client because he was chasing her around the desk. She wasn’t bragging. It was a sad fact (and btw this was not an attractive guy! Why would anyone brag about being hit on by a guy who looks like a cane toad?)
Or! Men could just be professional and keep it strictly business.
A “lunch date” that is misinterpreted as a “lunch date date” (ie, romantic) is NOT the woman’s fault. A woman can carry herself with appeal, charm, and charisma and should not be accused of “sending the wrong message.” Men use charisma daily to get what they want (as they should!), and a woman who does the same is labeled as “flirtatious.” As a woman’s corporate blog, I would think you would see the difference. I love this blog, but c’mon!
I’m late to the discussion but my 80 year old grandmother is sitting across from me right now and as she was something of a pioneer – a working mother in the 1960s in a management position – I asked her about her experiences. Turns out that not much has changed on this front in the pat 50 years. Her method back then was to be firm but direct (“No, we shouldn’t discuss x over a drink, we will discuss it here” was her example) – seemed to work.
My go-to phrase when someone compliments me in an “I’m hitting on you” fashion is to say, “thanks, my husband thinks so too” and move on. Works for all but the skeeviest, and those I am happy to be rude to. :)
As gross her experience was, its come with the territory. I think she’s doing a fantastic job by moving on from his remarks. He will eventually get the hint, and if he doesn’t then move on to the next client. Its one thing to land a client because you’re qualified its another thing if he just wants to mount you. I had a girlfriend who went the wrong route about this and decided to gain weight so men wouldn’t find her so attractive. She quickly became partner at her firm because they were so focused on her work and weren’t distracted by her sexy figure. It may have worked for her but I don’t recommend it. Just be your smart self and the right clients will come along.
I find it very disturbing how so many posters say that we live in a sexist society or that men are dogs or some other insulting word. I believe that in general, our society is not sexist, but rude, and this is just one way it is manifesting. I think there are many fabulous men out there and that by making these sweeping statements, it is rude. While there are definitely men who act inappropriately, it still does not warrant insulting the entire gender.
Secondly, I think that we have to look at ourselves as women (after all, the only person you can change is yourself). I’m not saying that women are asking for it, or anything like that, but look at the way the media portrays women. Pick up any women’s magazine and its about how to please him or keep him or something along those lines. We have bought into this notion that men are better than women.
I do not believe that men are better than women, or that women are better than men. Nor are men and women equal. We are different, and by trying to be anything but women, we are doing a disservice to ourselves, and the men in our lives.
Talking about how sexism continues to be a major problem in society and in the workplace is not the same thing as targeting or “insulting” men. However, I often see men say and do disgustingly sexist things, both in the workplace and elsewhere. It’s not all men who do it and I don’t think all men are scum because of it, but it is a problem that needs to be addressed. I find such sexist actions insulting to WOMEN and believe that we can’t just let this behavior slide. I believe that it is a disservice to women to pass of such behavior as merely rude rather than recognize it for what it truly is – sexist, discriminatory, and demeaning. And it is certainly not rude for women to call men out on sexist behavior and demand that it stop, just as it would not be rude to demand that a colleague stop making racist or homophobic remarks. THEY are the ones who are being sexist and inappropriate, and WE have a right to tell them to stop.
The inappropriate comments and come-ons that previous posters have recounted are indicative of a major social problem – that society teaches men that women’s bodies exist solely for male enjoyment. Look at the mainstream media – men are taught that they are entitled to use us as sex objects, and that even the least attractive, least personable man is entitled to sleep with women who look like porn stars. Look at the stories in this thread – men are taught to think that our bodies exist for them to look at and comment on, and that they are entitled to voice their opinion about a woman’s appearance, no matter how unwelcome or inappropriate their opinion is.
I believe that the last paragraph of your comment illustrates just how deeply ingrained sexism is in our society. No, men and women are not exactly the same. But it is extremely offensive to suggest that we merely sit back and accept being “different,” because here different is code for inferior. Women ARE equal to men in the way that matters – equal as human beings. We are entitled to equal treatment, equal respect, equal pay, and all of the other equalities that we have historically been denied. When I go to work, I have the right to expect that I will be able to focus on my work and not have to worry about unwanted advances or inappropriate comments about my appearance by a male colleague. Standing up for yourself is never wrong, nor is coming together as a community to discuss problems of sexism and discrimination that women face in the workplace.
Different is NOT code for inferior. Please DO NOT put words in my mouth. I also never said it was wrong for women to stand up for themselves. If anyone is treated rudely(whether it be a comment on one’s physical appearance or being cut while waiting in line) , he or she should, of course, stand up for him/herself.
I am by no means defending the action of rude men, simply pointing out that I believe it is part of an overarching problem in society.
I also do not understand how by saying we are different, you interpret it to mean we “sit back and accept being different”. I was just stating (and it is a biological fact) that men and women are different. And I think its a good thing. Women are capable of so many incredible things that men are not capable of. I think embracing these differences (which does not include lower pay, lower tier jobs etc) is a wonderful thing. Nothing about that is sitting back.
This has happened to me many times… I was more upset with myself for not stopping it the first time- in a way I felt guilty for not standing up for myself. As little girls, we’re taught to be nice and receive compliments with a smile and as women, we’re quick to be branded a variety of things other than nice- One day- one guy caught me in a “bad” mood and he complimented me once, I thanked him and another comment soon rolled out. My response (with direct eye contact): “Yes, you’ve made that point but I’m really interested in knowing more about the business we were discussing. Let’s move on…are you open to that? And I waited for an answer… after he picked his jaw up off the table- we moved on, I felt a surge of courage swim up my backbone and it was over. I’ve learned by asking a question and waiting for an answer it often brings men back into reality and out of my blouse!
Not sure if anyone would actually see or be able to respond to this but I have a situation on my hands where my female client has just let me know that she has feelings for me outside of our professional relationship.
Despite knowing that I have a girlfriend, she emailed me after attending a dinner party at her house, saying that she’s felt this way for the last 6 months.
She also happens to be one of my biggest clients and as a freelancer, losing their work would be a big hit to my business.
How do I respond? What can I say to 1. not hurt her feelings and 2. maintain our professional relationship? Is #2 even possible?!
Help!
I don’t think anyone will see this here, Annon — it’s a great Q and I suggest you post it in the post that’s up today, or wait for the Coffee Break post in an hour or so… Good luck!
I, too, am southern and have dealt with advances in professional settings different ways throughout the years. In recent years, when a client, for instance, says something I believe is inappropriate to me, I usually will pat him on the arm (yes, I know what many of you will say about this) and say, “Please don’t ever say that to me again. It’s just not appropriate.” And then I move on with the discussion. I’ve found this has been most successful so far, but I’m enjoying hearing what others have to say.
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