Weekend Open Thread

Something on your mind? Chat about it here.

The Outnet has a ton of jewel-toned garments on sale this weekend. I’m drooling over this Vanessa Bruno dress which, while it might work in an office would be lovely for evening outs as well. Love the pattern and asymmetric colla. It was $950, and is now marked to $285. Ikat-print silk-blend wrap dress

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  1. Favorite long-sleeved t-shirts/casual shirts?

    • They’re spendy, but I really like Be Present’s long-sleeved tees. I have several, and they’ve held up amazingly well.

      • Ann Taylor perfect tees hold up wonderfully. For lighter weight, good for layering, I love the cotton modal ones from Lands End. Both Lands End and AT come in petites.

    • old navy has some… they’re easy to layer as well and pretty cheap

      (this coming from a non-lawyer and thus a non-lawyer’s budget)

      • a passion for fashion :

        I have a lawyers budget and i still prefer the old navy ones. am wearing one right now.

        • I like the ON v-necks too. They are cheap (less than $10 on sale) and come in a bunch of different colors – I usually pick up a new one every month or so just to have a different color to work into the rotation.

      • I also like the Old Navy ones for layering, but do prefer the quality of Three Dots and LnA – nicer weight and drape.

      • I have a bunch of the old navy ones too. But I find they get stretched out and shapeless after awhile. Maybe this is unavoidable – I haven’t tried the more spendy options much.

        • This. I have a bunch and just don’t think the quality is so great. It’s worth it to me to splurge on a T-shirt (I like Three Dots myself) because it never goes out of style and I *will* wear it forever.

    • Land’s End canvas has comfortable, cheap, and cute ones for lazy weekends, errands, chores, etc.

    • Research, Not Law :

      I’ve been doing well with the Caslon brand ones at Nordstrom. It’s become my go-to for basics. Comfortable, durable, well-cut, and well-priced.

      I’ve been thinking about trying Lands End or LL Bean this fall. I’ve liked the random (not t-shirt) items I’ve tried so far.

    • Loft. I love how soft they are.

    • On a similar note, any great scoop neck (but not too low) plain, simple t-shirts? I feel in love with the ones from Loft, but now they are sold out.

      • Boden’s Perfect Tees have the perfect scoop neck. The only problem is that the style is too casual for work (the edge of the neckline is unfinished). Love them on the weekends, though. And the white tees are completely opaque, hallelujah.

        • H & M’s scoop necks! They are heavy enough weight to wear under a suit jacket and a not too low cut. I love them!

    • Elizabeth :

      It’s an odd brand, but Daisy Fuentes’ line at Kohl’s is just right. A nice substantial weight, and long enough for my 5’7″, long-waisted self.

    • Petit Bateau is my go-to. Their sizing is kind of weird. I’m 5’5″ and typically wear a size medium shirt, and I fit into their 18 ans (18 years – they do sizing by age for some reason! I WISH I had my 18yo body!). The material and stitching of their basic tees is very high quality. Nice thick fabric, and they last for years if you wash on delicate and air dry.

      • lostintranslation :

        Petit bataeu! Their tees are high-quality, hold their shape, and are nice and thick. As a bonus, a lot of their basic items are relatively short which is nice for the shortwaisted. Their only downside is the sizing. In most US stores, I wear an XS/S in tees, and at Petit Bateau feel most comfortable in 16a/18a (M/L).

  2. I know we have talked about Boden recently – not sure if anyone mentioned this dress? I have been eyeing it for a while. Any thoughts?


    • I’ve been curious as well, but haven’t taken the plunge. The reviews make it sound like the fit is a bit off. If it goes on sale I might have to try it, the prints are really beautiful!

    • That dress makes the mannequin look chubby. The model looks like she’s wearing a sack. I’d pass.

    • spacegeek :

      I have quite a few Boden dresses. Love the quality, cuts and fabric. They can run a bit large FWIW.

  3. re-posting the call for a Corporette Tumblr party. I want to follow you!

    wailingbeansidhe [dot] tumblr [dot] com

  4. Always a NYer :

    So sad, I completely forgot it was Friday until I saw this. Fail, off to get more coffee…

  5. SF Bay Associate :

    This Vanessa Bruno dress reminds me of the Trina Turk dress discussed a while ago – both are lovely looking as lounging robes to wear at home.

    Happy weekend all!

  6. Looks like a bathrobe to me….

  7. gift ideas :

    What is a good baby gift from an associate to a junior partner that you’ve worked for fulltime for 1-2 yrs and who is a friend and mentor also. They are a dual income, high earning couple living in Atlanta and this is their second child, so there is no registry, they are all set on basics, and the kinds of things that you give to help people out (diapers; grocery store gift cards etc.) will just look odd given the income level. I’d rather not pick out clothes as I don’t know the parents’ tastes or what they already have (large extended fams live nearby, multiple baby showers etc.), nor do I live in the area so things like a restaurant or spa gift certificate for whenever she can leave the house would involve me just randomly picking something close to their home. I was thinking of a keepsake gift, but as I’m hearing that it’s been a few rough nights in the hospital and at home — does she really care about a silver something or other right now? If it’s a gift card – where and how much given that she earns a LOT more than me and would not be comfortable if the amount was huge (and I wouldn’t be comfortable giving something too small). Ideas?

    • What about something for the first child? Often the baby gets more than enough, but it might be nice to include a note that you wanted to honor the older child’s experience of becoming a big brother/sister and give an age-appropriate gift.

      Or something for the parents? Gift card to the movies or something with a note that you hope they’ll be able to use the card for a relaxing night out in the future or before the baby arrives.

      • Always a NYer :

        I second getting something for the older child in addition to getting something for the new baby. It will mean more to the older child as he/she has probably seen all the new gifts for the new baby and probably feels somewhat sad that he/she has been forgotten about. You boss will also be grateful that you remembered she has two children.

        • Yes, I always get a gift for the sibling(s) as well.

          How about something less common and more sentimental? Did you have a favorite childhood book? See if you can find an early edition (ebay) and write a note inside the front cover.

          • Anonymous :

            This. Favorite childhood books. Fairy tales. Nursery Rhymes. Can be something to enjoy now, or maybe when baby is a little older. Plus it won’t add to the endlessly multiplying mountain of stuffed animals/baby blankets, etc.

      • You could do a few baby board books and then a book or two geared towards the older child’s age group.

      • I think it is so nice thinking of the older child.

    • Most people really like flowers. I can’t convince myself against flowers using any of your caveats above, so it just might work. Wait a few days and send a big pink or blue arrangement with a note of congratulations. If the flowers aren’t to her taste they will be dead in a week anyway, so it won’t matter.

      • a passion for fashion :

        This. I loved getting flowers both times. And it is especially nice to wait a few days/weeks so that they dont have a house full of flowers all at once, but rather a lovely bunch for a long time.

        And if you feel like you should send something else (I think some of the floral sending cos will do this) get a baby blanket or stuffed animal with the baby’s name/date of birth and a book or something for the older child.

    • Can you send food? Perhaps a fresh fruit delivery from somewhere like Harry & David?

    • It’s been suggested before but some books for the younger and older child would probably be welcome. They don’t take up a lot of space and new ones are always fun.

    • Fancy cigars for dad if he’s that type, fancy food basket for mom (or both mom and dad). Or you could do a gift card for meal delivery.

    • Research, Not Law :

      I hate picking gifts for people who make dramatically more than me… I find “thoughtful” to be the way to go.

      I’m currently pregnant with my second. I would love board books, as my daughter destroyed most of hers, especially if it was your childhood favorite. Easy to grab and eat food is always appreciated, so I second the edible arrangement idea. I don’t make anything close to a junior partner’s salary, so I would love gift cards for take-out meals or house cleaning. (I’m just dreaming now… back to your question…)

      I wouldn’t necessarily shy away from a sentimental keepsake if you feel like you found “the one.” I don’t have the time to fuss over things like that for this babe, so I would appreciate someone doing it for me if they knew my tastes. But I wouldn’t go there just to get *something*.

      Definitely get something for the older child. That will earn you big kudos from child and mom. It should be age appropriate, quiet, indoor, and primarily independent. Think books, coloring book and washable crayons, playdough, or toy cars for a toddler. Friendship bracelet or origami instruction book and supplies, tangram, or puzzle for older children.

      • Second book suggestion – I have found them to be well-received :)

      • gift ideas :

        Didn’t even think about older sib gifts until I saw all of these — thanks! My feeling was that if I got a nice (but simple) sentimental keepsake for mom, the older child (4) wouldn’t even care to look at some silver item. It’s not like I would buy toys or clothes for one and not the other bc I know the older D is feeling left out. How would you feel about a keepsake incorporating both kids’ names? If moms like that, I would totally do it, but I feel like it short-changes the second kid. Being from a large fam, I always found the first kid had way more “personalized” stuff with their name on it. That’s why I wanted to do it for the second one here bc I don’t think the new mom has the time and energy to do it.

        • Always a NYer :

          Go with something personalized for the second child and get a small toy or book for the older child. The two gifts don’t need to be extravagent or expensive but I do think you should get something for the older child as well.

        • Research, Not Law :

          Honestly, if you will be shipping the mom’s gift yourself, I would still include something small for the older child. But I wouldn’t worry about it if you will be sending something directly from a jewler or florist, etc.

          Not sure specifically what you’re thinking of as a sentimental gift for mom with both kids’ names. If it’s something like a necklace or bracelet where each would have its own stone or charm, then I think combining kids is good. If it’s something that typically would only have one name, like a rattle or Christmas tree ornament, then I would do one for just baby and a toy for older child. I hope that helps.

        • Are they Jewish? You can plant trees in Israel in each kid’s name.
          Www DOT JNF DOT org

          • Careful if you are are considering this. Many Jews would be offended by the assumption that religious affiliation means support for Israel. Lots of younger Jews are not knee-jerk pro-Israel.

          • gift ideas :

            They’re not Jewish. Nor am I getting into any gift ideas involving religion or culture, since I don’t have the same background as them.

    • Books are great. Perhaps a “read to me” big kid book and some baby books: Classics like Winnie the Pooh, Wind in the Willows, Beatrix Potter in a hardbound, annotated edition would be good.

      Also agree with the Harry & David fruit basket.

      If you do flowers, a flowering plant is nice. Many “new baby” themed flower arrangements are hideous.

    • PT lawyer :

      For a second child, I like the personalized name books from www dot iseeme dot com. The books spell out the child’s name with animals in the story and in rhyme, ie. A is for Aardvark that flies in the sky, N is for nutria that swims right by, etc. A little hard to explain but a nice, useful gift for a second child that is not going to gather dust.

    • One of my colleagues (who has two young children) said that the best gift she got when she had her first baby was a meal she could just heat up whenever they got around to eating. She said that someone had gotten her some kind of frozen chicken entrees from Omaha Steaks and they were wonderful.

      • gift ideas :

        The food ideas here have been really good. I thought about food but all the “baskets” I have seen are for cookies and other sweets, but I’d imagine “real” food is better for them than an empty sugar high. Keep the ideas coming if there are others — I didn’t even realize that personalized books, token jewelry for the mom with the kids’ names etc. were options. Obviously I’m only looking at the gifts that show up under the stores’ categorization of “new baby gifts.”

        • Someone gave me a basket of fruit and muffins, it was a great gift.

        • I love baskets with sausage, cheese, mustard, crackers, etc. I’ve gotten ones from Hickory Farms that were pretty yummy.

          • Food is the best gift. I had no time to cook when my kids were first born and buying food all the time can be tiring in addition to not being so healthy. I think it would be great to give new moms simple foods that they can freeze and heat up later like soups and stews (didn’t Kat put a blog a few days ago about this?). I also like curries and chili which are good to freeze.

      • I got so inspired by the freezing food post earlier this week that I made pesto, sundried tomato pesto and spaghetti sauce. I froze all of it and I’m going to bring it to my sister-in-law, whose baby is due on the 16th.

    • A nice book? Someone gave me a a big Beatrix Potter book that had all the Peter Rabbit stories in it, it was great for reading out loud when the baby was a little older.

    • I agree to get something for the older child too. For the baby, my go to gift is a baby sling, if they don’t already have one (the Ergo is a good bet). I also think something hand made is a good way to go – a piece of clothing, baby blanket, or toy. Good luck!

    • Diana Barry :

      Books or a Halo sleep sack. Hanna Andersson has nice patterns of the sleep sack, and for books I like any of the Busy books by Rebecca Finn.

      Always a good idea to get something for kid #1 too! Mine loved her baby doll that grandma got.

      • A monogrammed hooded bath towel is usually welcome. Or get each child an animal hooded towel. Kids love them.

  8. How do you handle cattiness from a jealous/intimidated colleague, especially when it’s not put in writing and when bosses are either unaware or favor the “cat?” (We’re talking intentional undermining-type stuff.)

    • Anonymous :

      Could you give us some examples?

      Also, I really don’t intend for this to sound mean, but I don’t always understand how people jump from rudeness or catiness to the other person being intimidated or jealous. There could be something completely different going on, including the person just being a jerk. I’m sure sometimes it is actually jealousness or intimidation, but when I hear someone say that, I almost automatically think that the person saying it is also part of the problem.

      • I tend to think that to, especially when it seems like no one else notices it. If they are truly intimiated, than there should be no problem right? I think I’ll need more info to try to give better advice

      • The new person just transferred from another department is underqualified and was made aware by the main office that I was up for the position as well but they thought my plate was already pretty full. She has no degree and I have a Master’s level of education and may go for more. She brings this up constantly (which is why I think this is intimidation or jealousy), that she doesn’t believe I am qualified regardless of how many “fancy” degrees I have, she makes comments to others about my wardrobe or my hair or whatever she can to be negative, none of which are anything more than her taste (I’m not breaking dresscode and comments are more about how she thinks the color of something is ugly). She also agrees to things in person and then, when I send the email confirming and cc the boss, she says she never stated this. I am doing all by email now to help watch my tukas. Our boss is located off-site and the staff on-site are known for never speaking up in situations among staff in the past, so the boss has no idea, she just thinks I’m suddenly hard to work with and such, based off the complains of this new transfer.

        I don’t want to hate my job, nor do I want the negativity to poison the agency or my staff.

        • Your boss doesn’t put two and two together? “she just thinks I’m suddenly hard to work with and such.”

        • Oh, I’m so sorry you are having to deal with this. I agree with the advice to stay above it and be professional, but I have to say I had a similar experience years ago when a long-time assistant got it in for me and made my life miserable for over a year. She only quit when the other secretaries/assistants finally spoke up and told her basically to cut it out.

          That did not stop her from undermining me with my lawyer-colleagues, however. She had been there from the beginning of the firm, and I was the young, new lawyer (after a federal clerkship and two years elsewhere). She had the ear of her boss, who still relies on her to an extraordinary degree, and I think that my relationship with him has been permanently tainted by things that occurred during all that drama. In retrospect, I think that I should have taken this up in a professional way with the two senior partners to let them know “my side of the story,” that the woman was back-stabbing me. She has now done it to enough other employees that the lawyers have all seen the picture, but I was the first new addition to the firm (ever), and unfortunately bore the brunt of it. Thankfully, she has mellowed over the years.

          The sort of comments she is making about your hair, clothes, etc. are so ridiculous, obviously personal, and unrelated to the job that I would hope in your situation that it is already obvious that the woman has a personal issue with you, and that it is her problem. If your boss is off-site, however, he may not be getting the picture. I know in my situation, none of the other staff wanted to get involved for fear of being the next victim, so no one said a word to the senior partners. As a result, the other lawyers went around hearing only the assistant’s complaints.

        • It never hurts to be extra friendly with your boss and colleagues if someone is targetting you. Letting them see you poised and professional reminds them of how petty her accusations are.

    • you ignore it. she/he is doing it to get to you, so don’t let it get to you. see it as her or his issue to deal with, behave in a professional and dignified manner, and move on with your work and life.

      IF it actually becomes a work issue – defined as something that actually threatens your work or your reputation – then you either approach her directly, or you talk to HR. but cross that bridge if and when you get to it.

      • Agree with this advice, but also couldn’t hurt to document specific work-related examples so you will have something to point to with HR. If you can minimize interaction or dependence on her work product, that would be ideal. In instances where you can’t, having a third person around to see when she agrees to an assignment could be useful (and don’t ‘cc the boss unless you have to–that may be part of what is triggering her). Eventually she’ll realize neither of you are going anywhere and hopefully knock it off/tone it down or find someone else to target. It’s important to continue to look like a team player–so don’t be tempted to dish it back. Usually these types are undone by their own actions and the reputations that result. Your colleagues probably see a lot of what is happening (and may even be experiencing some of it themselves). No one likes a bully.

        • This sounds incredibly frustrating! I sympathize. I wouldn’t assume that your boss thinks you are suddenly difficult to work with. Try not to get paranoid about what other people think of you. You don’t need to get all defensive about this. You aren’t doing anything wrong. The kind of comments this co-worker is making are red flags everyone would notice. While other people may not want to get involved, they probably are aware of what’s really going on and sympathize with you. I agree with S that this person is on the path of self-destruction. Don’t get too involved. Try to minimize contact and stay emotionally above it all (your new mantra can be “I won’t let this situation/person control how I feel”). Sometimes it might help to look at it with a dose of humor. Equate her behavior to something Dwight from The Office might do, and have a private chuckle with yoruslef. When she says something infuriating realize it’s just about her, not about you.

    • anonymous :

      What’s the point of an invite if you’re posting the time, date, and place?

      • I’m guessing the invite could include info like how to recognize the other corporettes, or provide a point of contact in case the plans change or someone is going to be late .. can’t make it .. gets lost .. etc.

      • The invite gives the person the opportunity to respond with alternative times or provide information regarding when they expect to arrive. Also, if I know how many people are coming, I can try to make a reservation.

      • So Bunkster doesn’t sit at a table by herself, holding a red rose and with a single tear rolling down her face.

      • tired of it :

        What’s the point of replying to her comment if you are just going to be rude?

    • Thanks for organizing this, Bunkster!

    • Blonde Lawyer :


      I sent you an email after you first posted the gmail address. I didn’t get a reply. I just want to make sure you got it. Thanks!

  9. Anonymous :

    I scored an interview for a public defender job in my ideal location. Any PDs out there? What’s the best thing you’ve said/heard in a PD intervew? What’s the worst?

    • Former PD here. When I interviewed to be a PD, one office made me, on the spot, stand up and give a “closing argument” for a fake case the facts of which they’d given me 2 minutes before (literally, no time to prepare). Another asked me about my political affiliations, then gave me a scenario that was completely unethical and asked how I’d handle it. When I replied that I’d alert the judge, as required by ethical rules, he flipped out and ended the interview. I wouldn’t have been a good fit for that office anyway.

      I never interviewed any candidates for PD positions – didn’t stick around that long – but most offices are looking for prior criminal defense work, like externships. Anything on your resume that indicates an activist (liberal) background, especially for criminal justice reform, will also help.

    • I am a PD and I have also done interviews for open positions in our department. I like to see someone who is passionate, yet not over the top. I like to see someone committed to public defense and the ideals in the constitution, and who is also smart. It is okay to talk about the “greater good” aspect of providing public defense, but also recognize that we work with real clients (many of whom are very difficult to work with.) Highlight situations were you have dealt with people during a difficult time in their life, that shows you understand the human side of all this.

      The worst thing I have seen are people who clearly are in it just for the court experience and make it clear they are going to bolt as soon as possible. I mean I recognize that part of my job is to train new lawyers, but at least show some committment and interest.

      Also, not everyone is a raging liberal. I work with a number of rather conservative republicans…

  10. So glad to see this thread! It means the day is almost over. First thing I did this morning when I got out of bed was to step into a pile of cat vomit. One would expect that the day could only get better after that. One would be wrong. Nothing is going right today, nothing works properly today. One of those days that make you wish it was acceptable to drink margaritas at lunch.

    • Research, Not Law :

      So, so sorry. Hopefully you’ll be able to put it all behind you soon – at least until Monday.

    • another anon :

      Oh, stepping in cat puke first thing in the morning is the worst. (Or almost the worst–I once went to get into bed in the dark and put my hand right into a pile of it. Thanks kitty.)

    • girl in the stix :

      Started by sending a news release about an upcoming (celebrity) speaker and getting his name wrong (spelled correctly, but inverted first and middle) in the subject line :-(. I’d rather step in cat vomit! The release itself is perfect, but I’ve had several e-mails about the mix-up. I IMMEDIATELY sent out an errata and an apology, but the deed is done.

      • Margaritas all around for all Corporettes who’ve stepped in things, made a mistake, or had unresponsive or otherwise unpleasant co-workers today!

      • Anonymous :

        Thanks for sharing :) I’ve made 3 stupid mistakes in the last week or so for a partner I recently began working with. I’m beginning to worry I won’t be asked to work with him again.

    • laughing (ruefully, with recognition) at the stepping in cat boke thing – and here’s hoping your weekend picks way up from there! Hope you’re into the margarita by now…

    • So…you’re saying it it NOT acceptable to drink margaritas at lunch? Who knew?

      • Clearly I’ve already had one.

      • Very tempting! My morning was so stressful I ended up hanging up on my boss because I was crying in the UPS store (…long story, but I’m sure she took it OK other than being worried about my sanity!) Ugh. Luckily, it is now the weekend, I am blowing off some work I should do before Monday but won’t, and am filling up my Kindle with new free library books!

      • It’s Mad-Men-O’Clock somewhere… :)

    • I have never had a cat (allergic), and all of the cat puke stories I have read on this blog are really educating me. I had no idea cats puke so much. Kind of like I didn’t realize kids puke so much until I had one.

      • The thing with some cats is that they do not know when they are full and they keep eating until it happens.
        I also have a cat at my parents’ house who would vomit each time he eats chicken bones.. would still cry and meow until he gets to eat chicken bones and puke them…
        Other than that he is extremely intelligent..
        I’ve had a kitten for nearly 2 months and so fat she didn’t puke.. we’ll see

  11. Anonymous :

    I’m curious about salaries. Not what people make, but about how much transparency there is. Do people share salary information with family, friends, colleagues, etc, or keep it private?

    • I will give a range if it pertains to something specific (ie: a close friend asking while interviewing for this same field in the same area), otherwise, I don’t. I’m not upset or ashamed, I just don’t feel it necessary to be judged. Also, I live in NYC so the money seems like a ton compared to what colleagues in smaller towns make yet it’s pretty comparable once cost of living is considered.

    • With my husband and my boss (and HR)? Public. With everyone else? Private.

    • I don’t generally discuss it with anyone but Mr. gov anon. But in some respects it’s sort of a moot point since anyone (including my siblings, my nosy neighbors, and total strangers) can go out on the Internet and, in theory, find out exactly what I make. In theory, because I’ve discovered that the State salary database isn’t entirely accurate. Close enough though for people to feel free to comment on it if they so desire.

      • Ruthy Sue :

        As a public employee, anyone can search and find my salary, along with any reimbursements, health care and any other money I received from my employer. While I understand the transparency since my salary is paid for by the public, it is uncomfortable when:
        1. my sister calls to ask for money because I “can’t possibly spend that all myself” and,
        2. when a guy brings it up on a first date (classy.)
        We are locked into a step system, so within the office everyone knows what everyone else is making. Otherwise, I try to keep it as private as I can.

        • –>when a guy brings it up on a first date (classy.)

          Well, at least you’d know whom not to spend time on.

          Only my mum and my frieds in similar jobs know. I’m a young proffesional so it’s nothing that would make anyone normal think they can ask for money.

      • FL gov't worker :

        Our database is entirely public, but I’ve seen some major mistakes. For a few weeks, we had a junior employee shown as making about $5K more than the direct of his department. Needless to say people were kind of curious as to what he did to deserve that much of a raise. Eventually it went back down to a more reasonable level.

        I think the database has caused a lot of tension in Florida workplaces and has really limited the ability to negotiate. People check the database regularly enough that they’ll know when you get a raise or if Joe with 3 years of experience makes more than Jane with 10 years of experience.

    • My parents know how much I make, roughly, because I usually squeal at them with excitement when I get a raise. A few of my good friends know the general range, because it comes up sometimes in discussions about job searches, student loans, etc. Among colleagues, I think transparency about salary ranges is good, but I don’t really know how much most individuals make. I have discussed it with junior colleagues once or twice when they were looking for a raise and wanted to know what was reasonable, and I also discussed with senior colleagues when I was looking for a raise myself.

    • Research, Not Law :

      Outside of my husband and our financial planner, no one knows my salary.

      I will share the range for my position with colleagues interested in potentially working for my employer, but that’s because it is already posted on job announcements, so I consider it public knowledge. I will share general information about the benefit package that is available to everyone.

      I don’t discuss salary with friends or family, period. I share only vague relative information, such as getting a pay increase with a new position or being underpaid at a former position. They do the same, if that.

      I share even less with coworkers. Nothing, really.

    • Cats Ahoy! :

      My husband and our accountant know what I make, but I don’t share that with anyone else. I have an IT job in a non-law field.

    • MeliaraofTlanth :

      I don’t share with friends. I would love to share with my colleagues of the same class year, though, if only so I could compare (I haven’t b/c I’m not close enough)–I’m at a non-lockstep firm and I can’t help but wonder if my salary is comparable or if some of us are getting the short end of the stick. I sort of miss the transparency of a government salary, though that obviously has it’s disadvantages.

    • I’m a lawyer, and I find most of us are pretty open about it with friends. Maybe it’s an outgrowth of lockstep? I don’t discuss it with colleagues, and I don’t discuss it with family (if only because my father really enjoys finding ways to help me spend my money. No, dad, I do not need to buy a time share in Puerto Rico, but thank you for sending me 10 e-mails on it.).

    • MaggieLizer :

      My mother knows, mostly because she’s super nosy and guilted me into telling her (“Is it so horrible that I want to make sure you’re OK financially? Why won’t you give your mother peace of mind??).

      The starting salary at my firm is public (on NALP) so most of my law-type friends know. It makes me super uncomfortable and quite frankly angry when my friends outside of Mid/BigLaw bring up how much I make. Between the student loans, being single and roommateless, and having to live close to the office because of my hours/availability expectations, I don’t see much more of my income than they do of theirs. Even if I *were* rich, why would you bring that up? Sigh, OK end rant.

    • I know this is the worlds most annoying answer, but…It depends. I don’t mind discussing finances/salaries with most people if we are having a frank conversation about life financial stuff/jobs generally and I feel like it’s not a sizing-you-up situation. However, with some people you just *know* that they will forever more make comments and be generally judgmental. Those people do not (and hopefully never will) know what I make.

      • I definitely do NOT tell my parents! I have in the past shared a range/suggestions with a few colleagues who were applying for other jobs. And then what M said, with friends–I have a lot who make less than me, but a few who make more. One friend was recently trying to negotiate a large raise due to job changes, and we were discussing benefits and bonuses and if he changed to my field (related) what he’d make, and so now we both know! But our other close friend (who was meeting us later) I know she probably makes a little more than me, from discussions we’ve had, but it could be 20% more or less…which is a pretty big range. Some of it is assumptions based on how friends live, which is so not indicative, really…but more to the point, in many ways.

      • I know people are uncomfortable talking Abiut money, and I find it interesting that a lot of people responded “no way no how”….it makes me wonder if they are uncomfortable about people knowing that they make a lot of money? The term “an obscene amount of money” comes to mind…i come from a working class background and I find that a lot of my friends are very open about how much they make. When you are making $10 – $20 an hour I guess there is nothing to hide. Maybe because I come from this background, a lot of the same friends were curious about how much I make because I have a professional job. I’m not ashamed of it so if someone asks or we are talking about finances, I will share. My parents know how much I make…I don’t know why I would hide it from them. Personally I am in favor of public databaseS on pay because it keeps us honest and makes it possible to evaluate, for example, if men and women are being paid the Sam for equal work.

    • Praxidike :

      I find all these responses interesting because I tell people my salary if they ask. I don’t particularly care if they know. I recently changed jobs and I asked a ton of my peers if the salary I was offered was similar to others in the same positions. I found out that the first salary was 20k low, and I got an additional 25k because of it. If I hadn’t, I might not have negotiated as hard for what I wanted.

      • This.

      • lostintranslation :

        I agree. Where I’m living/working, it’s extremely common (esp for new grads) to talk about how much they make. i.e. I’ve never heard anyone say, “I’d prefer not to say.” While this was initially somewhat odd for my American sensibilities, nothing bad happens when you talk about how much money you make. But I can’t shake my entire upbringing, so I don’t ever feel the need to ask how much other people make and just respond if asked.

  12. Sydney Bristow :

    NYC women, have you seen that some police in Brooklyn are aparently warning women to not wear skirts due to the multiple rapes that have happened in the Park Slope area? http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44733545/ns/local_news-new_york_ny/

    The entire situation is scary, but I’m not sure this is a way to help. It immediately reminded me of the sl*twalk that occurred awhile ago where I think women wore whatever clothing they wanted to make the point that she is not asking to be attacked by wearing scandalous clothes.

    • My dress is not the problem :

      I agree. I think it’s another example of conveniently blaming women for the problem. A more constructive response would have been for example, to educate everyone on basic self-defense techniques.

      There is another sl*utwalk happening in NYC tomorrow – I think in the Union Square area – if you’re interested.

    • had not seen that. a crappy situation in many ways.

      I don’t think policing women on their attire is helpful, either. Particularly if we’re talking about wearing an average skirt or dress to walk down a neighborhood street.

      As an aside, I would like to walk up to some of the young things I see at bars and clubs and on the subways these days and shake them and say “DO YOUR PARENTS KNOW YOU ARE WEARING THAT?” but that’s neither here nor there. I don’t like the sound of the sl*twalk you mention, either.

      • As an adult (someone old enough to get into clubs/bars), why is it any of someone’s parents’ business what they wear? If I walk out in lingerie, I should be free from rape or assault.

        Who are you (or anyone) to judge what someone else wears to want to “shake them” or to think someone’s parent has any say in what their adult child wears? Also, I don’t know if you’ve done any research on what a slutwalk is, but the only opposition is the belief that a woman CAN dress a certain way and be asking for assault/rape.

        • oh, it’s none of my business, i freely admit it. that’s why i don’t actually say anything, think whatever i think, and move on. if you’re the kind of person who has never had a private critical thought in your head about someone else, good for you, but i’m not that person.

          as for the slutwalk, which i had never heard of until now – i still don’t like the sound of it. why not take a self defense class? why not lobby for more police presence in the streets? or for better street lighting, for safer public spaces, for more public transportation, for tougher rape laws … etc? why does wearing lingerie (or whatever) in public and voluntary labelling yourself a slut seem more practical or more effective? is it supposed to be shock awareness? i just don’t get it.

          i mean no disrespect, and i guess we’ll never agree on this. i wouldn’t walk out on the street in lingerie, and nor would i venture down a dark alley at night by myself. it’s not about blame and personal rights. it’s about beating the odds.

          • Sydney Bristow :

            I think all of the things that you mentioned are also important. My understanding of sl*twalk is that they are trying to change people’s thinking. The NYPD is just the most recent example of people blaming women for being raped, when that is just not the case. The women who participate are trying to get people to change their thinking on the subject, which as far as I’m concerned is also important along with the other specific examples you provided.

          • The issue here is that people, including the police, believe that there are things a woman can wear that cause it to be her fault if she is assaulted or raped.

            The purpose of solidarity in this is that it is NEVER ok and it is NEVER the victim’s fault.

          • It was a protest in response to a police officer giving a lecture on a college campus and saying that if women don’t want to be raped, “they shouldn’t dress like sluts.”

            I don’t really understand why people think rapists are more or less likely to attack someone based on what they’re wearing. If you’re the type of person who is willing to rape someone, you’re not going to be deterred because your victim is modestly dressed in jeans and a sweatshirt. It’s about exerting power and control, not being overcome with irrepressible lust.

          • Agree, rape is about power and control, not uncontrollable lust.

            When creeps are choosing likely victims, though — say, scanning women at a bar for someone to start flirting with — i think they do rely on behavioral signals, and some of those behaviors can include how much a girl is drinking, how flirty she is with other patrons, and yes, how she’s dressed.

            I really wish it was possible to have a civil conversation about risks and safety without tipping over into the blame game. Is it ever OK to attack/rape a woman? No. Do you have a right to wear what you want and walk wear you like? Yes. But there are still ways to behave that can minimize risks. I don’t see why this has to be offensive to anybody.

          • To to Em – I’ll submit that if that happens (and is there really good evidence on that?), a large part of the reason why is because rapists know they’re more likely to get away with raping women who are dressed in a certain way. We can’t have a civil conversation about risks unless we’re also remembering that and trying to deconstruct it, because otherwise we’re just reinforcing the same narratives that lead to certain women being targeted for rape. (And I KNOW there is good evidence that poorer women and women of color are more likely to be raped and sexually assaulted – I think the same factors are at work, which is a travesty.)

            When it comes to things like self defense and safe drinking practices (like teaching young people not to abandon drunk friends in bars or parties and not to leave their drinks unattended), I’m all for it. But we can’t pretend that wearing a short skirt or being a friendly, flirty person is inherently linked to higher risk of sexual assault. IF there is evidence that it is, we need to look at the social factors that lead to that being true. S*utwalk is one way of addressing those social factors head-on and trying to counter them and make people think about their assumptions re women and dress.

        • Yep, women are free to walk around looking like sluts and should not get raped. But, people will judge you for it anyway, K. My pet peeve is women who dress very sexy and don’t own it. Example, I heard JLo pretend to be surprised by the reaction to the green dress with the neckline down to her navel. If you are rocking a short skirt, stop pulling it down. Ditto the cleavage: uncross those arms, sweetie! And, for the Love of God, do not act disgusted when men actually give you the attention that you are seeking!

    • They may have specific information that the suspect is targeting women wearing skirts and dresses, but don’t want to release that info for some reason. I don’t know anything about this particular case, but if they have specific information about a specific suspect, then they’re not really victim blaming but rather trying to keep women from being targeted.

      • Sydney Bristow :

        You may be right about that, but a woman in the article says she was confronted by a cop for wearing short shorts. If the focus was really on skirts, then that doesn’t make much sense to me.

      • Anonymous :

        I would like to warn men against wearing pants because 83% of male murder victims were targeted while wearing pants.

        • I completely agree – that said, I do remember taking a self-defense class in college and the police officer teaching it pointing out that skirts and heels are harder to run away in and advising us to ditch too-tall heels if that made a difference to get away. I wish I remembered what she had said about the skirt. I do remember her saying rape had nothing to do with what the victim wears, but that possibility of getting away can be affected by choice of attire.

      • When I first read this thread I thought perhaps they were advising women not to wear skirts because it is somehow “easier” for a man to rape a woman in a skirt versus if she’s wearing pants. But upon the reading the article, it is clear that the cops think women are inviting rapists by “showing skin” and that is just not acceptable.

  13. DC via Chicago :

    My best friend has asked that I take her for to buy “real” make up and has sensitive skin. I would also like to go somewhere the salesperson could teach her how to apply the makeup in a manner that’s non threatening to someone who’s not a girly-girl. My go to is Laura Mercier. Any thoughts?

    • LadyEnginerd :

      I’m no girly-girl and Laura Mercier is my go-to. I like that their brand’s specialty is the polished no-makeup makeup look, and that anything else can build on that simple polished base.

      Tightlining her eyes could be intimidating for her. For me it took lots of practice and cursing when I stabbed myself in the eye with the brush. On the other hand, the tightliners are a big part of why I like the brand so much.

      • Regular Tightliner :

        I tightline every day primarily because I am not a girly girl and this makes my eyes look bigger without looking done. So your friend might like tightlining if she doesn’t want to look as if she is wearing a lot of makeup.

        Re the stabbing yourself in the eye with a brush issue (always bad): I use Tarte Emphaseyes pencil in Charcoal. It is teeny tiny, so it fits just right into the base of my eyelashes from the underside. Also, so long as you apply the pigment along the base of the lashes, and not on the inner rim (where, when you blink, it will transfer to the lower rim, from which position it will drip down your cheek), it lasts all day.

        The Sephora brand twist pencils are also good for tightlining, but they are a littlewider than the Tarte one.

      • Tired Squared :

        What is tightlining?

    • SAlit-a-gator :

      I love Laura Mercier’s line. I was introduced to it by a friend with super-sensitive skin and it worked wonders for her. I also think this is a great line for a non-girly girl, as the focus is on looking like the best you, not some airbrushed concoction with neon blue eye shadow. Great choice!

    • Love Laura Mercier. I would also suggest that when choosing which stylist to help you that she likes the way the stylist has put on her make up. Otherwise, it may spell disaster.

    • I second the Laura Mercier. Also recommend calling a Bluemercury or Nordstrom store to see when the LM artists will be in for their event (they always have one in spring and fall) and see if you can get appointments.

    • Third for Laura Mercier and also suggest Bobbi Brown. I’ve used both of those for years and love how nothing Bobbi Brown makes is too over-the-top. It’s very beginner friendly.

    • I really like Laura Mercier too. I’d add that Giorgio Armani has some of the best foundation make-up that I’ve found, really light and doesn’t bother my sensitive skin.

    • I have extremely sensitive skin, and Clinique is pretty much the only brand I can manage. Also, mineral makeup is much less likely to cause irritation and breakouts than non-mineral makeup.

      • For those of you with very sensitive skin, I would recommend Dr Hauschka. They make natural remedies, skin care, and make up. It’s the only thing input on my face!

  14. Is there such thing as a professional bulliten board? I really want like a cork board for my office but it feels a little college-y

    • I have 2 in my office… 1 that’s a pushpin type and the other is from the 3M company and is sticky (sort of)… I make sure the information on it is work-related and isn’t tacked up over each other and it seems to avoid looking college or dorm room

      • anon prof :

        I have an entire wall of corkboard in my office and love it. I have a different section for each project and put things up so I can find them quickly, and then I file them away if the project is done or I won’t need it for a long time. It helps me remember projects that otherwise might slip by.

      • Pottery Barn has some nice ones as well, that don’t look too college-y

    • I could not do without my bulletin board. Ditto my whiteboard. Both of them are your standard, run-of-the-mill boards and my view is that they are there to fulfil a utilitarian purpose, so I am not concerned about how they look. They end up getting completely covered up anyway.

      I have a few inspirational quotes and photos I like on my bulletin board as well as work-related stuff. If I am sitting in my office all day, I might as well be surrounded by things that I like, law-related or not.

    • Maybe a magnetic board would be more your style? I have a magnetic whiteboard calendar at home that I love and would be lost without.

  15. One of my good guy friends was very unexpectedly laid off yesterday. He called me last night, and I let him talk for about a half hour and mostly listened. He’s a great guy, and though he feels shocked, upset and lost at the moment, I know he’ll be ok once he gets everything figured out. I want to be supportive, but I’ve never been in the situation personally, so I don’t know what kinds of things he needs to hear right now. We’re meeting up for a drink tonight, and I was hoping that I could get some advice on what to to say (or not to say?). Thanks!

    • He will want to be comforted, but be carful, b/c men like to drink and get drunk and then watch out.

      Be suportive, tell him he will get another job and tell him there are alot of other people who are out there, and not get to upset over this b/c this will pass.

    • Be a good listener and let him vent. You don’t need to agree with everything he says, but be willing to listen and empathize with the feelings of confusion and disappointment.

      Offer to help him in his job search, if and when he decides to start looking; send him contacts, headhunters, or postings, read his resume, do practice interviews, etc.

      Try not to disparage his company or his boss. You don’t know anything about what really happened, and it won’t help him to move on.

    • show up and say little… he needs to vent and to feel validated in his emotions. Remind him why he’s awesome and offer to help if he needs a hand proofreading his resume or whatnot.

      Don’t get into bashing others or “well someone else I knew did this….” stories… it’s about him and him getting it out so he can begin to move on

    • Research, Not Law :

      Ditto anon and K. During the recession, myself, my husband, and several friends have been laid off. Listen and support. Don’t bash. And as tempting as it is, don’t “solve” or point out the silver lining until they go there.

      FYI, sometimes people go through a high first, then crash. Others start low and get better.

    • I think it is fine to acknowledge that sometimes life stinks and is not fair. However, the best thing you can is help him develop a game plan- including networking, resume proofing, resume submitting, etc. You can help with the networking by introducing him to people he may not know in his industry or who could help him figure out what to do next.

    • I’ve been laid off twice. Let him vent and buy his drinks.

      He just needs to relax now. On Monday, he can get on Monster and Careerbuilder.

  16. Barrister in the Bayou :

    Recently discovered Pinterest and I am slowly becoming obsessed with it. Are any Corporettes on? If so, what do you think?

    For those not familiar with Pinterest… it is a website/app that allows you to attach images to pinboards that you organize by topic. So you can have boards board for books that you would recommend, things you would wear, things that look yummy, etc.

    Just another distraction ;-) But a fun one!

    • Oh, I love Pinterest! I can waste far, far too much time on that website, but it does me great style/decor/cooking inspiration.

    • totally obsessed & *love* it! but i’m in a creative field.

    • I love Pinterest!!!

    • Esquirette :

      I recently joined and I really love it. It reminds me that I used to be creative and there are lots of great things to look at. The only downside for me is the fact that it is a HUGE time sink.

  17. Jumping in early, and looking for a fabulous tailor in Philadelphia. Go!

    • Joseph’s at 20th and Walnut (slightly more expensive, but trusted for bridesmaid dress alterations and the like); Master Cleaners between 16th and 17th on Spruce (earned my trust for jobs of all sorts – from pants hemming t0 taking in only the top half of a knit dress to creating side slits in a tunic top b/c I’m a 0 in the waist and a 6 in the hips).

    • Anonymous :

      The dry cleaners on fifteenth and Samson. They are awesome. Totally redid a bridesmaid dress for me that I was forced into buying like four sizes too large and other tailors told me was impossible to tailor that much given the structure of the dress. Also my go to for tailoring shift dresses, etc. Really reasonable prices.

      A bonus is that the show repair place next door is excellent and really cheap too.

  18. Anon for this :

    Regular commenter – anon for this:

    Anyone have any experience with a parent (or ideally a S.O.’s parent) being unemployed for extended periods of time?

    My S.O.’s parent has been unemployed for about 2 years after a few decades of a very successful career. A potential new opportunity just recently fell through, and it’s hard on all parties. I’m not sure how best to support my S.O. and his parents through this (we aren’t married yet so I feel that changes things a bit). Any words of wisdom?

    • I think all you can do is to listen and be supportive/encouraging when possible. Also, when you get together with the person, suggest low-cost or free locations/options and try to talk about things not related to work so the person doesn’t feel left out.

      • Research, Not Law :

        Agree to all this. And be interested in whatever they are doing in the mean time, be it reading books, taking long afternoon walks, teaching their old dog new tricks, etc.

    • anon for this :

      Ugh, regular poster, but anon for this just in case. I have so been here. It’s definitely hard. I think it would be easier to not be the wife (i.e., to not yet be married) because it does take a lot of the money pressure out of it, but it’s definitely a hard position. My recommendation is to be really supportive of your SO and his feelings on the issue. My husband gets really frustrated at his parent for not working harder to find a job, for complaining about their situation, and for looking to him to fund all of our group activities. The hardest is the effect it has on holidays and other “family rituals.” You may find yourself and your SO having to take over some things for the good of the family (i.e., hosting or purchasing certain food for thanksgiving dinner). Just be there for your SO and allow him to vent. He obviously can’t vent to his parents and it’s probably not an issue he wants to talk to friends about. He’s probably going to want to talk and will need you.

  19. La Suisse :

    Bag ID Help! I have a beautiful black leather cross-body purse that I got at Filenes oh-so-long ago. The tag on the inside says “Arturo, New York Milan.” It has a zipper all the way along the top and gold detailing.

    I can’t find the brand anywhere else! I have searched everything I can think of online, and even taken it to Nordstrom and Bloomingdales to ask if they had ever seen the brand– no luck. This is a seriously awesome bag, and I would buy anything else by that brand in a heartbeat. Also, my secretary has oohed and ahed over it for a long time, and I was hoping to find it or something similar to get for her for a gift.

    Has anyone heard of this brand? Are there any other resources I can try? Thanks!

  20. I don’t need black or brown pumps at the moment, but can’t help loving Device by Nine West – they are so classic with the perfect heel height! Leather uppers, 39.99 at 6pm, and the taupe color is gorgeous.

  21. I’m wondering if there are any CFRE’s who read Corporette?

    • I’m not one now but am thinking of sitting for the exam next year. Very torn about it. You?

      • ANP – I am in the same boat. It is being encouraged by my VP that I move towards getting my CFRE but I’m just not sure. I’d love to touch base with some women who have the certification and/or women who thought about getting it but didn’t.

  22. Question for corporettes on weekend wear – after a couple of years of jeans and tall boots on weekends, I am entering a tights phase with boots phase and am looking for the elusive non-sweater-dress black casual dress – ideally i would like something soft but not sack-like, and definitely casual enough where tights + dress feels super comfortable. Sweater dresses could work if not itchy, but I always find them itchy. Any suggestions on brands to look at? Thank you!!!

  23. Would love suggestions for casual black dresses to wear with tall boots and fun tights. Thank you!

    • The Gemma wrap dress at Banana Republic can be both casual or dressy and looks great with boots and colored tights!

      • Thank you. I had not thought of wrap dresses (I own several I wear to work, including BR ones) but this one is just a bit shorter and more fun for the weekend! I was mainly thinking unstructured shift dresses, but everything I have looked at is a bit too unstructured.

  24. West Coast venter :

    Dear Peer For Whom I’ve Been Covering As A Favor:

    When I messaged you earlier and said “let me know either way” about details concerning our 1 PM deadline, that meant LET ME KNOW. When you replied “Okay,” I figured you would LET ME KNOW, not let me stew in radio silence expecting epic failure as the minutes ticked away.

    Fortunately for me, I’m going on vacation and I’m done with spending way more time trying to get information from you about which tasks we were sharing, than performing the actual tasks. So glad that when I return your office keys later today I’ll be talking to your assistant and not you.

    • Glad to see I’m not the only person having one of “those” days. Hope you can start your weekend soon, and that’s stress and problem free.

  25. Ekaterin Nile :

    I left work early today to avoid traffic for my Friday evening plans. Was thrilled to see a J. Crew box waiting on the front steps as I’ve been waiting for a package. Opened it up to find . . . my husband’s new pair of khakis. What a letdown!

    Then I remembered that the package I’m waiting for is from Nordstrom, not J. Crew.

    Oh well, at least DH got his new pants.

  26. Applying to Tuck b-school this fall and going to go up for the interview in a few weeks. I have looked at the on-line comments about the interview, but wanted to ask the hive if they have any suggestions for good questions to ask and what to check out in Hanover.
    also, fwiw, wearing ann taylor pant suit, black, with tbd color top.
    and heels!

  27. SAlit-a-gator :

    Job search question: I’ve read a lot about the importance of following up and I’ve done it before but only after the interview stage. Is following up also something that you should do after the initial application but before being contacted for an interview?

    I’m a 3rd year litigation associate in city A, applying to move to very competitive nearby job market B, where my husband works. I’ve sent out around 10 applications to firms who were looking for people with my exact credentials and haven’t heard anything back. Not sure if everybody is slow or if I should be following up pre-interview stage as well?

    • Anonymous :

      I’d call the contact to make sure they received your information and ask if you can provide anything additional probably about 2 weeks after you they received it.

  28. Anonforthis :

    Any good recommendations on minimizing bras? I used to love my chest back in college (I’m between a D and DD), but now I’m starting to wish it were just a bit smaller. I don’t want my boobs to be the focal point in my work clothes, and they make me look heavier than I am (not to mention, they don’t quite stand up on their own like they used to…). I have one minimizing strapless bra, to which I can add straps, but it leaves these awful marks on my skin and gets painful after a full day’s wear. My fingers are crossed for any suggestions you ladies might have! Hope you all have a great weekend :)

    • i had some good ones back in the day from maidenform and playtex, so maybe check those out.

      if it gets really bad .. i’m talking back pain, etc .. there is also surgery. but it sounds like you’re not at that point. good luck.

      • Anonforthis :

        Actually I’ve thought about surgery, but not seriously yet at this point. It would be nice, but it’s not a dire need or anything. But if anyone has tips/experiences with minimization surgery, I’d be grateful to hear those as well!

        • I’m anxious to hear the comments as well. My 17 year-old daughter is a DD. She is tall, beautiful and statuesque – think Minnie Driver. But buying clothes for her has been a heartbreaking experience for her to endure and for me to watch. She wants to dress her age, but the folks that make clothes for teenage girls must assume they haven’t reached puberty yet -flatchested with no hips. As a lifelong A-B cup, I can’t give her any advice on this.

          • I would recommend a professional bra fitting – if you are in NYC, Bratenders is great (my go-to when I lived there) and in DC Coup de Foudre is good (though honestly, my teenage self would have been less intimidated by Bratenders than Coup de Foudre). I was a C and small D as a teenager and that was hard enough to deal with – I could not imagine being that age and dealing with DD and F with the zero guidance I got my my own mom as a teenager.

          • Research, Not Law :

            I was a 30D and had the figure of a 25 year old by age 14, so I feel for your daughter (and you). I was fortunate to have a mother with a similar build who was full of advice (when I would listen!), which I still use today. The best: “When you have a knock-out figure, you don’t need to use the tricks that all the other girls use.” Something about the wording really worked with my teenage mind. When the fancy cuts, gathers, and pleats never worked on me, my mom reminded me that I was lucky to look great in a simple t-shirt. It’s true – and protected my fragile ego while keeping me from looking like a barfly.

            My mother was also an excellent seamstress and made many of my skirts, etc, so that I didn’t have to buy from the misses section. But a good tailor could probably do the same with items purchased to fit her largest measurement.

          • Research, Not Law :

            Oh, and ditto the bra fitting. I’m partial to Nordstroms. They do a good fitting and keep as good of a selection of cute large cup bras as is possible.

          • MaggieLizer :

            Get a Nordie’s personal shopper; they can help navigate the brands and price ranges that work for her body shape and your budget. I love Suzie Chin (361642 has been written up here before and looks FABULOUS with a belt), Jack & Ginger, and Halogen. Michael Stars t-shirts also look great on me; they don’t pull through the bust like other shirts can, and they look super cute with fun skirts.

          • No Longer a 3L :

            2nd the Nordstrom’s recs. (I really need to figure out a new moniker).

            I’d been reading about the bra fittings on here for a few years and finally managed to get me, my sister, and my mom all to Nordstrom yesterday to get fitted. We’ve each had difficulty (sister is tiny but busty, and my mom is a wee bit overweight but with smaller breasts) finding bras that were the right band/cup size. The shopper was SO helpful and professional.

            We came away with 3 new bras each that are so comfortable and in a completely different size than what we had been wearing.

    • anon for this too :

      i’m the same size as you & i *love* lilyette’s minimizers. they’re pretty cheap too – in the $30 range & macy’s has them.

      • Lilyettes are by far the best. I’ve been wearing them for the past decade. The only problem is that they discontinue styles every few years. I buy many duplicates when I like a certain style so I can get them to last a long time.

    • PirateLawyer :

      I don’t wear minimizers, but I’m quite busty and finding bras that fit well and are flattering is a chore — I’m a 32F. I found that a great fitting bra made a huge difference for me, in terms of how perky they looked, how thin I looked, and how my clothes fit. I always buy my bras at Nordstrom and while they are pricey, I can’t say enough good things about them!

      • Did you have someone at Nordstrom’s fit you?

        • Research, Not Law :

          I have, but don’t every time.

          I’m currently a DD and was a G while breastfeeding. I use well-fitting bras, but don’t have interest in a minimizer. It’s a drag finding clothes, but I like my shape and prefer to buy clothes to fit it. There was a post a while ago about clothing for large breasts and shapely figures you might find helpful: http://corporette.com/2011/04/21/curvy-and-competent-dressing-professionally-with-a-salma-hayek-body/

          • Thanks, all you curvacious responders! She did have the body of a 25-year old by the time she was 14. Buying a dress for the 8th grade dance was a nightmare, because she wanted to dress like a 14-year old. It’s like her body went directly from the children’s department to the misses dept. and skipped the junior dept. We ended up going to a high-end boutique and paying more than we should have for a great dress, but which she outgrew within a year. Since then we have found that better dept. stores have bigger selections of special occasion clothes on-line than in the stores.

          • Mary Ellen, just know that finding a dress that your 13/14 year old felt good in was probably worth the extra money. I remember being that age, with curves already. Everything seems like such. a. big. deal. at that age, and not feeling bad about her body was a lovely gift you gave her.

          • Mary Ellen, I agree with EC MC here. If you found something she loved and felt great in, you didn’t spend too much. I think that one of the greatest challenge for full-busted teens is that it costs more to look the way they want to, usually because (a) high quality D+ bras are more expensive than the smaller cup sizes that are readily available; and (b) alterations cost a lot. If you as the parent accept that it’s going to cost more, it’ll make things a lot easier for your daughter. She’ll grow up knowing she’s worth the expense.

            Clothing manufacturers use very average fit models and need to appeal to the lowest common denominator. It’s not your daughter’s fault that manufacturers need to go this route to make money, but it’s very easy to feel that your body is “wrong” and the clothes are “right”. If her clothing budget only allows for off-the-rack dressing, then it can get very frustrating and demoralizing.

      • Also recommend a bra fitting. I look so much thinner now. And I feel less Jessica Rabbit-y (I’m a 32F/G depending on brand)

      • PirateLawyer :

        I always have my bras fitted by the folks at Nordstrom — there is just enough variation between/within brands that I like to be sure the (probably expensive) bra I’m buying fits just right.

      • I don’t wear minimizers either, they are not flattering as they push the breast out to the sides and make them look as wide as my shoulders. I prefer the fit of Freya, firm and sleek. Sometimes I do wear a slimming vest over my bra. Mine are a 32H (size 12/14 below) but with the right clothes it all looks balanced. I like Pepperberry and Biubiu for my shape.

        When women look really big in the bust, to a distracting point, it is more likely to be an issue of badly fitting clothes. If I put on a 38F bra, I’d have 4 boobs and would be jiggling and bouncing all over the place. If I’d wear a gaping button down shirts, of course guys would try to sneek a peak. Buy clothes that fit you or buy a size larger and adjust it/have it tailored. You can look professional with your body type as long as your clothes fit and are modest.

    • I had the same problem :

      I’m similarly sized and the Simone Perele bras that I picked up at the Nordstrom Anniversary sale are amazing. They don’t minimize, but they provide a slimming shape and are comfy.

    • I like Olga Christina for this, usually get them at Macys

    • I have loved the Prima Donna Satin tee shirt bra for a long time. It isn’t a minimizer, but it has minimizing qualities. However, it can have a squashing effect when you look at yourself straight on . . . this is why lingerie stores recommend three-part cut and sew bras (seamed) for full-busted women. The side panel really brings you in. (I’ve recently discovered the Wacoal Alluring, and it is AMAZING.)

      So it depends how you want to minimize yourself–from the side or from the front? I used to hate seamed bras until I saw the difference from the front (I write about my epiphany at http://hourglassy.com/2010/10/it-takes-village-to-buy-bra/). Now I wear them whenever I can get away with seams beneath my tops (under woven fabrics and under colors or prints especially).

      One problem, however, is that when you wear a bra that doesn’t smash you in, it can be challenging to find a top that fits around your chest. So I understand the appeal of a minimizer. However, also be sure that you’re wearing the correct size. If you’re wearing too large a band and too small a cup, you’ll look even larger. It’s because the large band allows your breasts to just “hang there” instead of helping to keep everything in place.

      So make absolutely certain you are a D/DD. Many department stores don’t offer sizes above a DDD, leading many women to think they have larger band sizes. When I interview fit models for my Campbell & Kate shirts, almost every applicant tells me she’s some variation of a D. I’ve learned only to look at her numbers. I bring my own set of bras that I use just for fittings, take their measurements, run my calculations, and go from there. Just this Wednesday, an applicant told me she was a 38D when she turned out to be a 32F. She loved the bra I put her in, but she would have loved ANY bra that fit her perfectly like this one did.

      A correctly-fitting bra can be minimizing on its own. (I second the Simone Perele recommendation if it fits you correctly–the Andora is one of their most popular. I’ve also recently fallen in love with the Conturelle Avantgarde.)

      • Usually Lurks :

        Darlene, thank you for your thoughtful post. I was just fitted at Nordstrom and apparently I’m a D cup! But I look so much smaller in my new bras, and your post explains why.

      • My ribcage measurement is 33 inches and my bust at fullest point is 40.5 This is how I arrived at 40DD. I can sometimes cram myself into a 38C but not with most bras.

        • NotAnExpert :

          OK, I’m not an expert at this but your calculations make no sense. Your ribcage measurement should determine the band size, not your bust at the fullest point. According to a calculator I used online, you’re a 34G, not a 40DD. I don’t know how you could possibly wear a 40 band at that size!

    • Anonforthis :

      Thank you all so much for the very helpful and detailed suggestions! I’ll try some of these brands and see if I’m happy with something. I do have one bra that doesn’t minimize but lifts me correctly, and it definitely makes me look thinner. But I’m still hopefully I can find minimizing too, without a smushed look.

      • I would be interested in hearing from anyone who had successful breast reduction surgery. I am a 40DD and it is out of proportion to my size 10 body; I cannot buy most clothes in my size due to my breasts and can rarely wear any type of t shirt even in an XL. I am to the point where I hate my breasts because they ruin everyday as I look for something that fits and looks professional. DKNY makes a decent bra for me and that is the best I have found.
        I have researched surgery and looked at online forums such as real self but my issue is that I do not want to pay upwards of $7K and wind up as a 36C. I would just much rather be a B cup and wear tank tops braless for the rest of my life. Not to stereotype, but I fear a male plastic surgeon is going to be biased in what the product is …

        I have felt this way for about 5 years. Thanks for any advice, suggestions, insights.

        • I doubt you’re a 40DD at a size 10. Likely you’re a 32 or 34 G or larger.

          Get a proper bra fitting and then decide what you want to do. I thought I was a 34 DD and hated my chest a lot of the time. I learned I was a 32F or G. I’m more comfortable with them now.

          • anon for this :

            Seconding the recommendation to find proper fit first. And if you go ahead with reduction, think about what would fit with your body. I decided to have the reduction a few years ago, and am very happy with the results. Now a 28D and love how I am not constantly trying to dress around my chest.

        • My former fit model Tammy wrote about her decision to get a reduction and described the process. Click on “The Rack” if you visit Hourglassy. I third the commenters who say you’re probably not a 40DD.

        • Most women, especially professional women, wear bras with a tank top for “headlights” related reasons when they’re on the smaller end of the spectrum and ok w/ it (no padding, etc). However, if you’re referring to tank tops with a shelf bra, then yes, a smaller % of women wear a bra as well.

  29. Anononymous Lurker :

    I’d love to have the advice of the ladies on this board–I’m usually lurking, but have always admired the courteous and respectful nature of everyone’s comments and am hoping to get a less navel-gazing perspective than my own a work issue that’s been bothering me. I apologize in advance for the longish post.

    I am a seventh year associate in a mid-sized firm. I’ve worked at this firm for three years. There are two other associates, male and both very good, who are also seventh years. The three of us are up for partnership at the same time– at the end of 2012.

    Late last year, I had the opportunity to first chair a jury trial. We were expected to lose, but ended up winning a defense verdict. I was kind of thrown out there on my own and without much support (no paralegal or second chair, etc.) Shortly thereafer, I approached my mentor (who is also the managing partner and one of three female partners) and asked if there was a trial advocacy CLE she would recommend so I could try to polish my trial skills. She told me about the NITA trial college and that she would speak to the other partners about sending me. Needless to say, I was very excited about this.

    Fastforward two months and another partner comes into my office and says something along the lines of, “We try to send our associates to trial college. This year we will be sending male associate one and male associate two. If one of them can’t go, then you can fill in.” I was flabbergasted, explained my conversation with my mentor, and asked him the criteria the partnership used to decide who was attending. He told me it was an issue of seniority and that both male associates had been at the firm longer (about 5 and 6 years, respectively). I told him I was unaware of this criteria and was disappointed that I wouldn’t be going after all.

    I’ve tried to let this go, but I’m having difficulty, especially as my two colleagues just got their NITA packets and will be leaving in a couple weeks. I’m trying not to look at this as anything other than a business decision made by the partnership (as it is a pricey investment in an associate) and I’m trying to make myself believe that this was simply and solely a determination based on seniority, although I’m not aware of other associates of the same class being excluded in this way in the past. However, the more negative part of me feels like I’m getting a bad deal here. I’m also concerned that this is just a preview of what will happen when I’m up for partnership next year. And the pettier part of me is bothered because I’ve tried three cases to jury as a first chair (mostly by being very persistent in showing my interest in becoming a trial attorney) and neither of the other associates has ever tried a case or shown an interest in doing so.

    Am I overreacting? Do I need to just work harder on letting this go? Any recommendations for steps I can take to ensure I’m not excluded like this in the future?

    Thanks for reading!

    • I could see the fact that they’ve been with the firm longer being a factor, but you’re right that you’ve showed more of an interest in trial work. Perhaps they think you’re already covered in terms of what NITA could teach you because of that experience? Good luck!

    • I’m sorry this happened to you. I would be disappointed and feel stung, too. Selecting NITA attendees based on tenure with the firm rather than experience level seems odd. However, based on the fact that you have trial experience (good job, btw!!), I can see how the need to send these associates might have seemed greater.

      I know your partner said she would speak to others about sending you to NITA. At the end of the day, you’re responsible for your career development. It sounds like you know that, given that you’ve pushed for trial experience. Did you really push for this, too, beyond just expressing interest in one conversation to your partner? Even if you can’t attend this NITA seminar, push to attend another. They have the trial skills seminars multiple times a year. I don’t know what your fiscal year is, but if it’s 1/1-12/31, then push to go in early 2012. You may need to lobby more people than just the one partner you reference above.

      And finally, I hope you’ve been promoting yourself within the firm. I assume not all 3 of you will make partner next year? So get your name out there, and make sure the partnership knows you’ve successfully tried multiple cases with good results in less than ideal circumstances.

      Good luck.

      • Anonymous :

        I’d be upset too even if the seniority reason you were given is genuine. Now this may not be a popular opinion, but have you considered offering to share in some of the cost or enrolling on your own? From reading your post it just sounds like you have a vision of where you want to be/what you want to achieve in your career and that you’re eager to make it happen. So why wait until they decide they’ll make the investment in you when you can make the investment in you. If this is something you think will make you more marketable/competitive, it seems worth it. Then again, having to reach into your own pocket to pay for something you feel you deserve will likely only increase the feelings of loathing.

    • Another Senior Associate :

      I always thought that my junior associate years would be the hardest. Boy, was I wrong! This senior associate gig is pretty brutal! Sometimes I let myself get too distracted by politics relating to partnership progression and lose sight of being/becoming an excellent attorney. Then, I over-correct and get some consumed by my client work and business development opportunities that I end up a step behind on a good political move. Yikes! It’s so hard to cover all the bases.

      I clearly can’t give you an answer because I struggle with these same issues. However, I thought I’d pass along this advice that I received from my mentor – a senior partner in our large firm. She says that, although you should never allow yourself to be passed over or treated unfairly, you should also make sure that you are always coming across as self-confident.

      Applied to this situation, I would be careful that, when addressing the partners about this decision, you make it more of a conversation about your career advancement than a confrontation about this particular decision. Be sure to highlight your career commitment and the value that you bring to the firm. Highlight how your participation in this training would further your goals and the business objectives of the firm.

      But, be careful not to say anything negative about the other associates. No matter how careful you are – it’s likely to come across as competitive and petty. Also, be careful not to rely too heavily on the other partner’s promises. Partners don’t really like it when they feel that an associate is pitting them against each other to force an outcome.

      Instead, consider saying something along these lines: “I wanted to follow up with you regarding our conversation last week about the upcoming trial program. I have really enjoyed my experiences in the [describe recent trials]. Based on the outcomes in those cases, I think I’ve really found my niche as a trial attorney. I want to make sure that I’m doing everything I can to solidify my existing trial skills and to make sure that I’m developing into a well-seasoned litigator. I think this program would be a great way to do that and I would like you to re-consider your decision. If it doesn’t work for this year, I’d like you to commit to sending me next time the training is offered. Also, do you see other areas of development for me? Are there additional projects I can take on or programs I should attend to make sure I’m on the right path to achieving my career goals?”

      Good luck! Please let us know how things go. I’m definitely in similar situations and can use all the input I can get!

    • firm lawyer :

      my old firm really favored “homegrown” associates over “newcomers”. that took a lot of newcomers by surprise at partner election time as often they were more qualified or at least seemed to work harder. this sounds relatively minor in that I agree with the posters who said you probably need NITA less than others who haven’t been to trial (having been to NITA’s trial training, I don’t think you’re missing much), but it could also be a clue about where you stand at your firm. I’d keep your ear to the ground & prepare yourself a little for the possibility of not making partner if these other 2 are also up.

      • Anonymous Lurker :

        Thank you all for your input. I think the ultimate issue for me is whether this is somehow indicative of how partnership will be handled. The other two associates are very good and I consider them both friends. I’m as valuable and my reviews so far have included an acknowledgment from the partnership that I’m “on track” for partnership. Thst said, this incident has shaken my confidence and maybe rightfully so. I’ve always relied on my blue collar ethic of keeping my head down and producing good work. Unfortunately, the longer I do this job, the more I realize self-promotion is important to my future. Thanks again for the insights and perspective.

  30. I was intrigued by the eye lash extension post a few weeks back, but, like many others, was blown away by the costs. Well, Gilt City LA today has a deal that is 1 set of lash extensions + 11 fills (so 1 year) for $260, or 1 set and 5 fills for $165…. seems much more reasonable if you want to give it a try!

  31. Today, I saw a lady, a young lady, even, oh good grief, a woman in her mid-to-late 20’s, in my office complex today, dressed appropriately for casual Friday but I can’t remember what she wore because I was so riveted by her leopard print infinity scarf. I had the strongest urge to ask her if she read Corporette because I remember someone mentioning that they had one. I refrained from asking such an odd question, however, which is very good, as I look like a total dump today. Cannot wait to go home.

  32. I have a styling question for you fashion savvy ladies. I have a chocolate brown shirt dress that I want to re-style this year. I was thinking leggings, a long funky necklace, and a gold belt. The problem is that I cannot find leggings (other than black) anywhere. I have checked everywhere from Macy’s to Ann Taylor Loft to Target. Any tips on where I can find legging to coordinate with the brown or other styling advice? Thanks!

    • I’m not sure what you meant by leggings but I think tights would accomplish the look you’re going for. Or skinny jeans. Or jeggings. Try dark denim, cords, or just black, maroon, navy, a different brown, olive, or even a dark green. Or textured tights. All of the stores you mentioned have them. If you’re talking about leggings from the 90’s, I think only cheap discount stores would have them.

      If the belt is very bright, then don’t do a long necklace. You could always go for earrings, or bracelets, or a superfabulous ring. Vest if you didn’t feel like belting. If I were the type to wear tights as outerwear, I might even experiment with wearing an anklet on top of my tights. Hope this helps!

      • MaggieLizer :

        Always love your styling suggestions, Ru.

      • Ru, I’m a semi-recent muhajjabah, and I wish we were friends in real life so you could help me dress (well, and because you sound really nice and cool)!

    • American apparel has lots of colors – I have a few (red, slate, navy & black – want to acquire more in hunter green & eggplant) – got them for <$20 on amazon.

      They are cotton leggings – great with boots in winter, and loose, long t-shirts/tunics for summer.

      The quality is fine, though I'm on the fence about the CEO's practices…

    • Try Nordstrom Rack. There were a few pairs of inexpensive brown leggings there last weekend for $9.99. I have one pair that I really like, but unfortunately the brown was unavailable in my size.

      • I have also been able to get affordable leggings in various colors at places like Charlotte Russe – if I want to try a new color, I buy from CR and then switch up to a Hue once I am confident I like the color

    • DSW has a ton of leggings in their hosiery area (of all colors and textures, and discounted).

  33. Pink on Black :

    To SF Bay Associate:
    Let me know if you get this message. There’s a good Malaysian restaurant in Milpitas that does curry laksa: Banana Leaf. I haven’t tried their laksa, but the stuff I’ve tried there is pretty good in general. Apparantly there are places in the City that serve it too. You want to look for “curry laksa”, not “assam laksa”, which is different.

    • SF Bay Associate :

      Awesome!!! Thank you! I’m going to make a trip to Milpitas this month :).

  34. Anonymous :

    Weird question – the bones on my feet “knuckles” I guess, seem to be growing (you know, where your big toe meets your foot). Any way to keep this from happening? I think it’s because of heels and ballet flats that are tight there, but it’s not because my foot is too wide – I have a narrower foot than most. Any suggestions?

    • It’s called bunions. I’m a fellow sufferer. They are not just an old folks medical problem. My podiatrist says that they are genetic, and that sometimes teenagers get them so bad that they need them operated. I will be looking into getting mine operated this winter.

    • I think this could be something caused by poorly fitting / unsupportive shoes. Even if not, I think its probably something you should be getting seen professionally since it could get worse, and make your feet knobbly, or painful. I noticed something similar, which was really quite mild, that occurred when I started wearing higher heels than I was used to.

      • Ooo, I have one on my right foot that was painful when I wore heels in court everyday and I considered getting an operation. The surgery involves breaking your bones and putting them back together. Thankfully, I now wear flipflops to my sit down job so no longer have the problem. Now I am getting carpel tunnel from typing though. We can’t win!

    • Anonymousaswell :

      Definitely bunions. I’m 28 and they have gotten much worse this year for me (medical intern, on my feet all day, no real way to avoid it). Since I only wear heels on my one free weekend a month, I was puzzled why all my sensible low heels and flats were causing problems.

      I figured out I’d gone quietly gone up a half size in shoes, which has been a real pain since my budget did not extend to replacing all my work shoes. My podiatry resident friends suggest that if you are wearing shoes too tight across the bunion, go up another half size your normal and wear sole inserts so that your heel doesn’t fall out.

      None of those protectors, yoga toes, etc, have been shown to work as much as modifying footwear. Surgery is usually only considered when you have serious pain as the surgery is notorious for having a very long recovery. And yeah, there’s a very genetic component (thanks, Gran).

      PS — if anyone who is thinking of wearing Dansko/Sanita clogs regularly is reading this, don’t buy them if you think you are prone to bunions. I am pretty sure wearing them third year of medical school is when all this started as they are narrow across the toes. Have not worn them at all this year.

  35. Completely random question. I seem to remember an SNL skit in the 90s about a guy who would write polite but biting letters when crossed. Anyone remember what the skit was called?

  36. Anonymous :

    Ladies, I’d love to hear some realistic feedback from M&A attorneys. Has anyone successfully managed having children AND keeping up with the often grueling work hours? I’m curious to know what works/doesn’t, and whether you are in-house or at a law firm. Thanks!

    • I have worked in M&A for 8+ years (law and banking). I have NOT seen a woman successfully do this, and I don’t think it’s from lack of trying. It’s from men mommy-tracking the women or the women being the type that don’t want children anyway (not that there’s anything wrong with that). The hours that M&A demands (even for senior folks) for years on end, are very, very difficult. You really do have to have a superhuman ability not to sleep but to function at a high level as you work 90 hour weeks, the ability to function without friends (because you don’t have time for them and a key part of a deal is always coming up) and the ability to be OK with not seeing much of your family.

      FWIW, I have worked in London, NY and Silicon Valley at bulge bracket banks and white shoe law firms. Women always get out before men do, and then the men end up with the prize. Period. When I was a whippersnapper, I thought “that won’t be me–I can do it and I can set an example for the young ladies coming up.” But burnout is burnout, and I think that the tolerance for BS necessary in M&A is just higher for men. Honest–I do. The “Thrill of the Deal” is somehow more thrilling for men than women.

      I had friends from b-school who were hellbent on being awesome female senior bankers. And they too, after a few years, moved out to PWM, sales and trading or other capital markets-type roles that had slightly better hours. Very, very depressing.

      I think the place where I see it working best is in law in Silicon Valley, where there are many female senior associates/partners who do M&A as part of company rep work–so their practice is a mix of M&A and other. Thus, they don’t work the go-go-go hours of jumping from deal to deal like 100% dedicated M&A folks do.

      I would love for someone to jump in and tell me that they have a handful of examples where women rock at M&A and rock at being mothers too. Call me jaded, but I looked for those wonderful women to be my mentors, and I couldn’t find them at the firms where I worked, through my Ivy League alumni network, in the popular press, or anywhere. Those women are rare indeed. And it makes me really sad.

      • Anonymous :

        I remember you responding to my question when I asked about this career path — thanks again for the honest truth.

    • chicago assoc :

      Linda Myers at Kirkland. She’s in debt finance, but that is, in many ways, M&A.

      • Anonymous :

        When did it become ok to post personal information about third parties on this board? I’m sure this woman will just love it when this comment comes up in google searches.

  37. I’m looking for some general hive mind advice. A good friend of mine was induced to have her baby today. Her baby has had a lot of complications so far, and so they were very uncertain what was going to happen. The baby could either be pretty healthy, or have serious developmental and medical issues. There was also a very increased chance of the baby being stillborn.

    My friend is not the type to post what’s going on on facebook or send out a big email. I’m really concerned and want to make sure things are okay, but I’m not sure if I should call, as I can’t just assume congratulations on a healthy baby are in order. I might be catching her at a really great or a really terrible time.

    Have any of you been in this situation? Have any of you had a really uncertain pregnancy? Would you have appreciated calls from friends and family, or would you rather have your space and privacy in such an uncertain time? If something bad is happening, I don’t want to be the sort of friend who just disappears because she doesn’t know what to say, but I worry my friend won’t want to be taking a bunch of calls and telling everyone bad news right now.

    • Esquirette :

      This may sound odd but maybe a text message? Several of my friends who have had children recently were texting news and updates (to close friends/family). It’s likely that she has her phone. Something like “I’m thinking of you” . . . and maybe “Can I visit?” If things are well, you will likely get a response, and if they didn’t, you may get radio silence.

    • Things were very touch and go for my daughter when she was born. I didn’t want to talk to anyone. Can you call her mom/sister/best friend for an update instead?

    • Thanks for the advice – Anon, I was thinking maybe she wouldn’t be up to discussing whatever situation is going on if things were touch and go. I wanted to leave some sort of message that she could get to at her convenience and if she was feeling up to it. She is one of those people whose phone does not receive text messages, so I ended up calling straight to voicemail and leaving a message about how I was thinking of her and that I was available to talk or help or do anything she wanted or needed. It’s been radio silence so far, so I’m really really hoping that she and her husband are just busy with the baby and her medical needs, and not grieving.

  38. Maddie Ross :

    I’ve not been in this situation, but I can’t help but think that a text message of “Thinking of you today” would be appropriate. No matter the situation with the baby (and wow, my thoughts are with your friend, how scary!) the induction is hard on your friend and her body. A message of your thoughts and concern may be enough to start a conversation, if she’s willing and able.

    • I agree, just a simple “my thoughts (or prayers) are with you” hits the right note, IMO. Also, I would wait 48 hours or so to send your next message.

  39. recommended reading :

    I see NGDGTCO recommended over and over on this site. Any recommendations for similar books like this?

    • AnonInfinity :

      What field? If you’re in law, I just read “Swimming Lessons for Baby Sharks” and “The Curmudgeon’s Guide to Practicing Law.” I really enjoyed both. I am a baby shark, so I don’t know for sure that the advice I picked up will work, but it seems good so far.

    • “How to Say It for Women” – good communications book. You can find it on Amazon.

  40. Realtor Blues :

    Anon for this. I don’t know if there is any really good way out for my present situation but I’d appreciate any thoughts the hive might have — I am so upset and am at a loss. Sorry for the ramble–it’s epic–but my brain is too fried to organize it better.

    DH and I have tried to sell our house twice in the last several years and managed to list it when things were worst with the market. Circumstances are such that we really need to sell in the next 6 mo so third time’s the charm. We spent a ton of time & energy to get the house in fantastic, pristine shape–even got it staged–and listed it again 2 mo ago. We are on our third real estate agent — we adored the first one but was she more of a buyers agent than a sellers agent, and the second one had a great sales record in our region but turned out to be flakey and was really disorganized and unresponsive (we were going to list with her again but the last ignored email was too much). To be clear — we had good relationships with these agents — the fit just wasn’t right. We went with our current agent because she and her team seemed to be the perfect mix of our two prior agents. She was super chatty and talked to us about prepping the house, visited & showed us other listings as examples, and recommended her very good friend as a stager. Everything was perfect, and then we listed.

    We had a disagreement over the house listing, and I was “too aggressive” with her (as DH put it). I admit — this was likely a situation that needed sugar and sweetness, and I ended up going hardnosed. I had a few questions that I wanted to speak with our agent about, and she wouldn’t call me even though my emails would end with “please call me”. Instead, I kept getting emails from her assistant). She did a couple things that concerned me — e.g., insisting on including that the house was professionally staged in the listing (taking up prime character real estate) without explaining why after I pointed it out several times, and stamping “motivated sellers” in bright red letters on the listing on her website. When I finally got into an email exchange with her directly, she just didn’t address any of my questions or concerns and basically told me (sweetly) that she’d been doing this for >>> years and was trained by random expert >>>. My restraint gave, and I wrote her an email again noting my concerns and expressing some displeasure (omg the listing was so terrible! it made me think used car lot). The email was likely too . . . aggressive. I wasn’t unreasonable but I was very direct and didn’t pull any punches on reiterating my concerns. DH says I went “all lawyer on her”. She’s a Southern woman in her 50s-60s who is all sweet on the surface but you can tell there’s some bite underneath. Well, it appears I poked the rattlesnake. DH and I feel like, because I pissed her off, we are the forgotten listing. After my email to her, we had a couple emails from her assistant to finalize the listing and sending us one market update and that’s it. Worse, though, we haven’t had a *single* showing. None of the realtors on her “team” have shown it, and she hasn’t had the agency’s other realtors see it either. After reviewing the statistics for our area, we think the house might be priced a bit high but not enough so that NO ONE would come see it. DH finally sent her an email asking about the situation (I wasn’t going to contact her since I am obviously a terrible b*tch, and he couldn’t get her on the phone anyway) and he got an email back from her assistant with very brief responses to his questions. The realtor is supposed to call him tomorrow. Suddenly the agency’s other realtors are also going to be coming to see the house next week — prompted undoubtably by our email.

    I feel just sick over the whole thing. DH and I have been killing ourselves to get the house ready & have done everything that was suggested to us. Work is crazy for both of us, and his mom has been really ill for the last several months as well — this is just one more terrible thing. Both of these factors likely contributed to my just not letting go and letting her do whatever she wanted with the listing. We did everything we could to make things go as best as they possibly could and it’s just all gone to hell. Sure, we’ll drop the price of the house (bye bye down payment for the next one) but, if our realtor hates us, what good is it going to do? If we terminate the contract, it won’t help because there’s a clause in it that any sale of the house within 6 mo of termination would fall under the contract so we’d never get another realtor to help us. Honestly, I doubt anyone can suggest anything that could make things better but I don’t really have any other people I can ask for help from. :(

    • First, I will say, as you already have seem to have considered, it may be better to let the realtors–the experts in THEIR field–do their job. However, if you feel that they are not meeting their end of the contract, i.e., making their best efforts to sell your place, you could put them on notice that you consider their inaction to be a breach of hte contract and that you want to cancel. If things are as bad as you seem to think, it may be that they would be happy with that situation.

      Obviously, that is a last ditch stand. Remember, they do not get paid unless they sell the house, so it is really in their best interests to try. That may be why the other realtors are coming to see the house next week. I would wait and talk to them and try to mend things, as in, doing what they say and listening to their advice. Now is a BAD time to try to sell a house anywhere and what looks like a used car ad to you may be what is necessary to get anyone to look at your place.

      Good luck. I know how frustrating this situation is.

      • Oops. Did not mean to sound like Ellen :)

      • I think the problem here is it doesn’t sound like she’s that much of an expert in the real estate field. Why in the world would anyone want to put in the ad that it was professionally staged? That seems tacky to me, and would detract from how nice the house looks.

    • You’re not going to like this, but suck it up and apologize. Do it sincerely, explain all the stressors in your life, and reiterate your great respect for her.

      I know exactly how hard this is to do, because I have to do the same with my son’s pediatrician on Monday (gulp.)

    • Any chance you would consider selling it yourself? We did that for our house in 2009 and broke even. I understand that you’re extremely busy with work, so this probably isn’t an option, but you have a good idea of how to appeal to buyers and how to look out for yourselves. It’s clear this realtor isn’t giving you her best efforts. Even if you have been a difficult client, it’s unprofessional of her to go passive-aggressive on you.

      If you decide to look into this option, I recommend http://fsbo.com/. We used their Flat Fee MLS feature, which is how the broker for our ultimate buyer found us.

    • Does your real estate agent own the business or does she work for a firm/corporation? If she works for a brokerage, I would go up the chain and complain. Sure, maybe you’re demanding but you’re not a monster or the worst client ever. Ask around for recommendations at the same firm or drive around and look at agent’s names on “for sale” signs to see if there are other agents that might be suitable.

      If she runs her own agency (and thus complaining up the chain wouldn’t work) I would try (1) apologizing if you think that would work followed by (2) do as “a lawyer” says and put her on notice that her actions constitute a breach of contract. If necessary, contact a RE lawyer, preferably one who is “in” on the culture of your particular southern town.

      Good luck!

      • I respectfully disagree with going over her head. Sales people, at least the ones who are really good at it, are generally ego-driven delicate flowers underneath all of their bluster. Having her boss tell her that you complained or threatening her with legal action – while these things might be satisfying to your own ego, they will not cause her to be more dedicated to selling your listing.

        I still say you should apologize for the tone in which you conveyed the message – but technically not the actual message. But don’t make it one of those unapologetic apologies my sister gives, which boil down to, “I’m sorry I yelled at you, but it was because you are so very very wrong, and now I will repeat all of my points for the umpteenth time.”

        • I agree with Mama Bear – you recognize that you did not behave well, so do the mature thing and apologize. It may also have the effect of making the situation better, but it can’t make it worse.

          I read this post yesterday and then went on to finish my day but was still thinking about it last night – as I was reading I kept expecting to hear that this was the last straw with your husband and he was leaving; that you needed to sell to get money for a child’s stem cell transplant without which she would die – in other words, what was SO horrible that you would be this upset about it for SO long. I’m sure it’s frustrating to have been stuck in a house you’re trying to sell and to be contemplaing a financial loss, but even bankruptcy isn’t the end of the world. If you could take a wider view, maybe an apology would come easier. It also might prevent you from doing things in the future that actually harm your own interests, as this stress appears to have done.

        • Mamabear, perhaps apologizing would work. But if the woman isn’t returning phone calls, I don’t think it would help. Ego-driven flower she may be but my experience is that good salespeople are tack-sharp and pragmatists. If apologizing doesn’t work, what is the OP going to do- wait a year until the contract doesn’t hold any sway? OP is being held hostage by an immature ego-driven agent. Sure, maybe OP shouldn’t have compained or made the agent mad, but the OP is the customer! So if an apology doesn’t work, going up the chain and asking to be transferred to another agent may be a good option. Or getting out of the contract altogether. No really good answer here.

    • Realtor Blues :

      Thank you all for your input – I appreciate it. I didn’t go into the other stressors in my life that are culminating in this being a particularly stressful situation (this post was identifying enough) but, regardless, there are take home lessons for me. Also, I realized what I hadn’t made clear was that I felt like she was using our listing to promote her friend’s staging business, which I was not ok with (there was already a sign at the house for this). Anyway, DH/we will speak with her tomorrow and I’ll feel things out then. Maybe things aren’t as bad as they seem (Friday night’s are my low points) — I woke up this morning to a Facebook friend request from her. Of course, I’m sure she uses FB as a part of her business and it was likely her assistant that friended me — and the cynic in me thinks it’s possibly a way for her to get intel on us — but maybe it’s a positive sign. Though, it’s also awkward as I generally don’t friend people I’m not close to. Maybe I’ll friend her and then lock down what she can see. Sigh. Anyway, thank you all again.

  41. Hey ladies,
    Recently a link was posted for the “C by Bloomingdales Cashmere One-Button Blazer.” I *love* the idea of this but don’t have $200 (and don’t need it to be cashmere, obviously). I’ve tried searching around for alternatives but I’m not doing so well. Can anyone help out in the realm of sweater blazers? Thanks!!

  42. No Longer a 3L :

    Will first apologize for this rather wordy post.

    My thank you:
    I’m mostly a lurker but have commented maybe once or twice a year in the past (started reading when I started law school in 2008). Love reading the weekend open threads – I feel like it’s given me such a wealth of knowledge. My girlfriends are always amazed at the variety of lady/career/life topics I can give them “advice” or resources about (taken generously from these threads). So thank you to all you wonderful ladies for that. =)

    My situation:
    I just graduated from a tier 1 top 5 law school and am working as a “post-graduate fellow” at a state AG’s office (lucky to have a fellowship stipend “generously” provided by my law school so they may report to US World and News that I am “employed”) . The fellowship is for 6 months (ending mid-March) and I have the opportunity to do both litigation and transactional work in my Bureau.

    My question (for those more seasoned attys):
    What can I do to make myself a stronger job candidate? My eventual goal is to go in-house (want family/kids/care about lifestyle) and I have heard that it is easier to go in-house with a background in litigation. That being said – I will take ANY law job that’ll take me in 6 months. I’m not one of those women (not that there’s anything wrong with them) who is defined by her career or what she does. I have always seen law as long-term but transitional/a means for me. So, I honestly have very little preference for what my practice area is (this has been an obstacle in applying to jobs/trying to convince people why they should hire me) but I am absolutely willing to give any job my 110%. I am interested in non-profit/arts/institutional clients but will do any work I am assigned. I don’t have a particularly strong interest in govt/public interest and do have a fair deal of school loans – so a biglaw/firm job would be more practical.

    So, given my current opportunity to request/experience both litigation and transactional work – I’d love to hear suggestions for how I can make the most of this 6 month experience.

    Thanks (again) in advance for your/any help!

    • I have no idea how to position oneself in the market these days, especially for a new law grad. The only thing I would point out is that it is absolutely not my experience that one has an easier time going in-house from a litigation background. I am a litigator, as were most of my friends at my old firm. They struggled much more that our corporate peers trying to find in-house positions. My friends and coworkers who focused on transactional work were able to leave BigLaw sooner and had a variety of options in terms of the type of companies they could service.

      If in-house is your goal, I would do some research on the backgrounds of lawyers at the types of companies you might want to work for. Start looking at job postings for such companies now, even if that is a long term goal. I would not be surprised if a transactional background is more sought after.

      • Strongly agreed re: going in-house. My experience is that large corporations tend to outsource their litigation (with the exception of certain companies that by their nature have a lot of litigation work, like insurance companies), and that transactional skills are in greater demand.

        With regard to figuring out your career path, well…I’m unsurprised that that not caring about your practice area has been an obstacle to getting hired for you. As someone who interviews people, I would not be particularly interested in a candidate who came into my office and didn’t care what field of law she ended up in. Even though you say that you’d give 110% to any job, to an interviewer, that makes you look unfocused and disinterested, which aren’t good qualities for an attorney. In this economy, my (biglaw) firm now tends toward hiring to fill departmental needs, even at the entry level.

        Why did you go to law school in the first place? I went to a similar school (maybe even the same one, as mine did the same thing with regard to post-grad stipends), and it takes a lot of effort to get to, and then to get through, a top-five school. Obviously something motivated you to do it – I’d encourage you to think about that and try to tap into some vein of interest, or focus, or *something* that will allow you to avoid giving interviewers the impression that you’ll just be marking time.

        • This.

          I would not hire someone who gave the impression s/he was only going to be around for a few years. It takes a few years for an associate to be any good at what they do and to be any use to me. I can’t really tell you how to market yourself when you seem like you don’t care that much about your job long term and when there are tons of candidates who do care about establishing a career with a firm that hires them. Tough love, but you need to make some tough decisions. Either you need to adjust your attitude, adjust your expectations, or adjust your job focus. Or lie about any/all of these. I wouldn’t recommend lying b/c the legal world is much smaller than you realize when you’re new to it.

        • Working Girl :

          I could not agree more. I interview a lot of candidates, and someone who does not express passion and interest is not going to cut it.

          • No Longer a 3L :

            Sorry – I should clarify. It’s not that I don’t care so much as I haven’t found any practice areas to be more interesting/engaging than any other. Coming from a position where all legal work is equally interesting to me, I’m curious whether transactional or litigation skills would be more beneficial for my career.

            (And thanks to those who have replied!)

      • In-house lawyer :

        There are definitely more in-house opportunities on the transactional side than litigation. Check out ACC job postings and that will give you a sense. Hot in-house areas are contracts/transactional, employment law, IP.

    • Take a look at this August 12 WSJ blog post (with link to a more detailed article): http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2011/08/12/who-needs-law-firms/

      Perhaps there’s a chance you could go directly in-house?

      • Alanna of Trebond :

        I know that some of my friends at my top law school are interviewing directly in-house rather than going back to their 2L summers. Specifically, I know that HP is looking for some incoming attorneys, and I also know of a first year associate who left his firm to work at Google.

        • Alanna of Trebond :

          Oh I see that HP is mentioned in the article! Sorry for the repeat news about that.

  43. Threadjack: Does anyone know of / have any opinions of a firm called Kleinbard Bell & Brecker in Phila? Thanks.

  44. Would anyone be up for a Philly or Wilmington, DE meet up?

    • I would be up for Philly!

    • I’d be interested in either – though if you’re in DE, it’s likely we’ve either met already or have friends in common. Or both. :)

      (BTW, I’m a semi-regular poster here, but I’m staying anonymous because I don’t want to associate my location with my regular handle).

      • I would definitely be interested in a Philly meet up! I did lol at the poster above- I have family in DE and worked in Wilmington this summer, and I agree, the likelihood that you two already know each other is highly probable!

  45. Anyone been in this boat? In the past year I’ve cycled through multiple job prospects in my company where I was a very strong candidate and had the backing of key people – phrases like “shoe-in” and “perfect fit” were tossed around – but ultimately all fell apart/went to other people.

    I’m kind of one of those force of nature types in an office. I love to work, have big ideas , am known for getting things done other people can’t get done and am good at playing the system. Bosses like that I deliver results and can be trusted – but I can be pretty persistent and hard-charging in the process. That said, I’m told I’m also generally well-liked by my peers.

    But now I’m hearing rumblings that I may not have gotten those jobs in-part because of this – concern from the person doing the hiring that I’d try to end run around them, do too much, or step on their turf. Most of the potential bosses were men. One was a woman my age, but one step up in level.

    I’m up for another job there now where I’m starting to sense the same issue with the person doing the hiring this time. I’m well-liked by people at the top and they are pushing for me, but potential boss isn’t sold. I’m starting to worry that even if I get it, I’m headed for an unhealthy boss/employee situation. The catch – my current contact is up and the alternative is leaving my company, which is the best in my industry.

    Would you take it anyway if offered? Or walk away to pursue a spot at a less prestigious company where you have more latitude? Any lessons I should take from this/adjustments I should make – or is this just the cost of being a strong woman in the workplace?

    Hit me with your best advice and constructive criticism! I’m ready for it.

    • Hm. If top-level management likes you, and your peers like you, but your direct superiors don’t, I’d take the job (if it’s offered) and then spend some time actively trying to cultivate relationships with folks at that level. It may be that this is a gender issue; it may also be that you come off as disrespectful of their authority, as overestimating your own competence, or as not being a team player. It’s worth an investment of time to figure that out, because if the problem is mostly (or even partly) you, that’s a valuable thing to learn and it’s something you can fix.

    • Take a look at the book “What Got You Here Won’t Get You There” by Marshall Goldsmith and see if it applies to you.

  46. Anonymous :

    This article by a lawyer on his client may be more interesting to Canadian Corporettes, but it’s excellent and well written.


  47. I am looking for a perfect hot pink cardigan. It seems I have checked everywhere to no avail, so I figured I’d tap into everybody’s searching/shopping skills here and see what others could come up with.

    Ideally, the cardigan would be 3/4 length sleeves (but long would be fine), good quality fabric (so, merino, silk blend, cashmere, etc.), possibly with some sort of detail (like ruffle trim, jeweled buttons, a bow, etc.). I have some dresses and shells begging me for one of these, and I’m at my wit’s end that I can’t find one.

    • Lands End has several cardigan styles that come in about 20 colors, including several shades of pink. J. Crew might too. I saw one on Lands End Canvas called the Heritage cardigan that might be what you’re looking for. I also try Google shopping and Shopstyle searches when I’m looking for something specific.

    • is Lilly too bright? Even the cotton cardigans have held up well for me with laundry TLC (machine wash cold/gentle, lay flat to dry).

      • I’d second the Lilly Pulitzer suggestion. I have Lilly cardigans in both cotton and cashmere. They put new stock online every month or so, so you can probably find something you like sooner rather than later. And they usually always have a shade of pink.

      • I’ve not tried that site yet, but it’s one to look at in the future, especially if they stock often. I might just have to keep stalking, as ShopStyle and all my searching are pulling up nothing right now.

        • Lilly Lilly Lilly!! I have four different color pink cardigans from there…. I’m a Lilly girl through and through though I no longer work for them :(

          Go for either the classic Paley or one of their seasonal choices. You can usually get an embellished Paley too! There is nothing there with the embellishments you want right now but the Resort line usually goes up in late October and its their best (although most expensive) of the year

  48. Has anyone experienced a change in hair-texture related to perimenopause or menopause? I’m 42 and all kinds of interesting things seem to be happening to my body, including that my hair keeps getting curlier. Although unevenly so, with chunks of it remaining straight, just to mess with me…

    • Curlier with each baby for me – I’ve had three – and I’m 46. I would call myself a wavy girl now (if not quite a curly girl) and I had straight-as-straw hair as an adolescent and young woman. Much to my dismay, I might add, when I was trying to look like Farrah Fawcett in high school.

      And, yes, I have that one frustrating section that is still straight as straw.

    • According to my hairdresser this is typical.

  49. Advice, please: suit or business casual? Don’t want to get this wrong…

    Event: on-campus open house for prospective grad students in healthcare administration. 4 hours on a Friday afternoon in early October. “Top 5″ program located in central Virginia. Note that this is not a formal interview, just an info session for applicants.

    Me: early 30s, currently working in an entry-level healthcare administration job. First “career” was in higher ed, so my wardrobe is more academic frump than hospital CEO (and my clothing budget is minimal).

    TIA. Can’t tell you how badly I need Corporette in my life.

    • What about dress slacks, a nice sweater, a blouse, and some classic jewelry? I think of an outfit like that as business “semi-formal” and I think it would be perfect for an event like this. Not too stuffy, but still nice, and not too casual either.

    • Based on your description, definitely not a suit. I think Frump’s suggestion would work nicely. Or if you prefer dresses, maybe a nice sheath with a cardigan or non-matching blazer. Overall, think classic, clean lines, solid colors or very subtle prints — not saying stifle your personality, but I think professional, understated, and easy (i.e., not looking like you’re trying too hard) is probably the right tone to aim for for this event. And if “central Virginia” is Charlottesville, have fun! The weather should be gorgeous this time of year, and I love love love that town. So many fun things to do, so many great restaurants, and for a grad student there’s a wonderful quality of life.

    • Not in VA, but my go-to for any on campus recruiting has always been dressy bizc as, and Frump’s suggestion sounds perfect!

  50. I don’t know how many Corporettes there are in southern VA, but I just wanted to let y’all know that there’s a JCrew warehouse sale in Lynchburg this weekend. I cleaned up, it was amazing (two new jackets, 4 wool work dresses, and some other items all for under $200 all together). It was a bit of a madhouse and I had to hunt to find the good work clothes, but it was totally worth it and kinda fun! It’s going on all weekend!

    • Oh! Sad that I missed this. My sister in law lives in Lynchburg, but I guess it’s too late to pass this on to her now! Glad you got some good stuff!

  51. Springtime :

    Random question- what do people think about a lush faux fur jacket? Found one I love in chocolate brown, just below the hip. I was thinking it would e fun for going out and other non-business situations. Or it it too much?

  52. Esquirrel :

    I’m a first year associate at a law firm, and it’s that time for year end self-evaluations. I have to say I feel somewhat clueless about this. What makes a good self-review? Does anyone have advice about how to approach the process? I am not the type of person to toot my own horn, but I also don’t want to underestimate my abilities either. I would really appreciate hearing your insights!

    • Anonymous :

      Big firm? Then bragging is in order. You are likely being reviewed by a committee of partners from all different practice areas – with little or no knowledge of what you/your practice area/skillset is like. Refreshing honesty is not going to win you any attention or space in their memory. At the 1st year level they probably aren’t looking for a lot of client-generating activity. But generally, I’d name drop a bigger client and talk about how you hit it out of the park for the client (it = brief, hearing, deal, closing, whatever you do) and then talk up your civic/legal/other involvement (young lawyers association, political grp fundraising positions, alumni club, charity volunteer, team in training, whatever).

    • At my firm, we do NOT have self evalueations.

      That is b/c the manageing partner WANTS to give all evaluations, even for asociates that do not even work for him.

      I know that If I were to give me a self-evalueation, I would give me an A or a A+, b/c I work very hard and I have my own CLIENT base.

      After 3 years, I do ALL of my own EBT’s and depositions, and the manageing partner KNOWS that.

      So when it is BONUS time, I expect to get a real BONUS. Or it is FOOEY on the manageing partner.

  53. Hi, has anyone gone off the pill after years of being on if? If so, what was your experience? Related, have you tried the IUD or anything else you like instead?

    • I know this is a late response, but if you haven’t had a pregnancy, you might want to avoid the IUD. It was my experience (though others have not had problems) that my body basically rejected the IUD. It was painful and uncomfortable for over two months and I had to have it removed. I liked the NuvaRing and I like the DepoProvera shot. Both have worked well for me, though I long for a day when I can stop being on hormonal birth control altogether.

    • I have had both the copper IUD (paraguard) and the Mirena IUD. The copper one made my periods much heavier and the Mirena has pretty much stopped my period. I do feel like I am having a harder time losing weight with the Mirena, but that may not entirely be due to the IUD. Either way, they were both completely worth it to me since I am no good at remembering to take the pill and wanted birth control that I could just forget about.

    • helenshkie :

      I was on various, hormonal forms of birth control for about 15 years. When I finally came off the pill (after deciding to get pregnant), it was like a fog had lifted – I suddenly felt smarter, found it easier to focus, and could go the extra mile, analytically. So that was good.
      Now, post-baby, I have a copper IUD. I still feel clear-headed (sleep deprivation aside) and remarkably un-hormonised (not a word, I know), but my periods are very heavy (as in, fill a Diva cup 4-5x/day for the first 1-2 days). My daughter is 15 months old, so I think this is an IUD thing, rather than a just-had-a-baby thing.

      • I just wanted to chime in and say I felt exactly that way after going off the Pill, and I was so surprised! That is exactly why, after I was sure I didn’t want any more babies, I had a tubal ligation. Which I highly recommend, but obviously for when you’re sure you’re done!