Coffee Break – Loose Rib Knitted Snood

ASOS Loose Rib Knitted SnoodHmmn: I’m kind of loving the idea of a snood right now. It’s a scarf! It’s a really chunky necklace! It’s a cowl neck! It can even be pulled down and worn around your shoulders, a bit like a wrap/shrug. Asos has a nice looking one in a variety of fun colors, including a lovely dark green (pictured), a red, a bright yellow, a dark caramel, and a beige. Prices range from $14.38 to $21.56. ASOS Loose Rib Knitted Snood

(L-2)

Comments

  1. Westsidebee :

    Public Service Announcement! For everyone who has ever written up a long post and then lost it because you are posting too quickly, or lost in moderation, or your computer freezes, or whatever.

    I always do a quick control-c to copy my post before hitting submit. Then, if you lose it, it’s just a simple control-v to plop it right back in and submit again.

    It becomes habit after a while, it takes almost no time, and one day it will save that brilliant eloquent post that you can’t possibly re-write!

  2. SNOOOOOOOOD :

    I love snoods Cat. You rock.

  3. Didn’t Jo wear a snood? (That’s Jo of “Little Women” fame, to be clear)

    I think that’s the last time I saw that word in print.

    • This has actually started to bug me. A snood used to mean a decorative hairnet thing, common in the medieval ages, (and probably what Jo was wearing). I have no idea how that translated to a scarf.

      It totally irrational that the change in meaning bugs me, but it does…

    • agree, in Little Women it was sort of a hair net that kept your bun up, not any kind of scarf.

    • Equity's Darling :

      I’ve seen snood recently, but I thought it was those slouchy beanies. The current word for snood, I always think of as a circle-scarf….

      And I have like five of both what I think are snoods, and what I think are circle-scarves, so it’s not like I haven’t been shopping for them at least the past 18 months.

      Now I’m confused. What are the slouchy beanies called then?

      • A tam? (Google tam + women’s hat). I was made aware of a “tam” when I read All-of-a-Kind Family (anyone else remember those) and one of the sisters had a tam that she wore.

        • I loved those books!

          Of course, being neither Christian nor Jewish, at about 8 or 9, thought all the cool food and rituals they did were what all the non-Indian-American kids were doing (or did 100 years ago).

          • Little Lurker :

            LOL, and as a little Jew girl, I was just thrilled that for once a book I loved knew about Yom Kippur.

            I wanted Ella and Henny and Sarah and Charlotte and … Gertie? to be my sisters SO BADLY.

          • Yes, Gertie! And don’t forget the last sibling, Charlie. My favorite story by far is when Henny wears Ella’s white dress to a party and accidentally spills tea all over it . . . then she “fixes” it by dipping the entire thing in tea and dyeing it a lovely “ecru.” Those books taught me so much about clothes! For children’s books, they were also surprisingly poignant and heavy at times. Glad I’m not the only one to have read them!

    • And here I just think of Snood as a computer game I played a lot in law school. I had no idea it was an actual article of clothing — clearly I need to reread Little Women!

    • According to urban dictionary, a snood is also:
      An insult that typically has no meaning. Since the word is an insult, it is usually used in a negative context. OR A guy who had the chance to hook up with a girl twice, but fails.

    • I’ve seen the word fairly frequentlywhen shopping. I have an Italian greyhound and it’s common doggy winter wear for them (and their bigger greyhound cousins).

      For people, not so much.

    • Praxidike :

      Yes. I knit and what’s being shown here is not a snood, but a “cowl.” I’ve made a lot of them for friends, and everyone loves them. Better than a scarf because there are no ends to wrap, and you can wear it long for fashion or double-wrapped for warmth.

  4. Don’t know if I’ll get put in moderation for this link, but saw this today and thought it was awesome (and is on topic…yay scarfs).

    http://colorlines.com/archives/2011/11/25_ways_to_wear_scarves.html

  5. Is there a post on recommendations for art work in an office?

    Also, there are snoods in JCrew and I was like umm what’s a snood. Way to stay ahead of the curve Kat!

    • AnonInfinity :

      Yes: http://corporette.com/2010/10/12/livening-up-your-office-walls/

      There are also some threadjacks that discuss it a little.

      This is something I’m thinking about a lot lately because I don’t like having just my diplomas on the wall!

    • Equity's Darling :

      I’ve put up pictures from my travels, or art that I bought while travelling. It tends to inspire a lot of conversations.

      I don’t have my degrees up. I feel like the people who hired me know what I have, and I don’t ever have client’s in my office- we always use boardrooms. So, the people who come in my office, know that I’m an articling student, they’ll attend my bar call, and then know that I’m a lawyer.

      The degrees live in their boxes, framed and bubble-wrapped, for a day when I don’t work in a firm, and have to show people that I have relevant degrees.

      • AnonInfinity :

        One of my BFFs took a pic while we were in Venice of a gondolier under a bridge that is so good that it looks like a postcard. I have thought about getting a copy from her and putting that up, but it looks so much like a travel poster or something that I can’t decide if it looks cheesy in the end. I’m probably overanalyzing this…

        • Equity's Darling :

          Whatevs, do it.

          I have one that I took off the top of the Spanish Steps in Rome, with the sun setting over the Vatican, one that is looking up at the Colosseum with the sun shining directly beside it, one of the Lenin Wall, one of Schonbrunn, etc.

          Pretty much all of mine are artsy-looking photos that I took myself that could plausibly pass as postcards, but for the fact that I know I took them.

          Mine from Venice is me and a friend wearing these insanely ornate masks, and one of us wearing waders in the San Marco (since when we were there it was flooded…). I guess those two really don’t look like postcards, but they’re fun.

        • have her sign it!

        • My law school friend had a “picture a day” blog. I have two of his pictures framed and hanging in my office.

        • We’ve tried to make that our goal when we go on vacation now, to take a really cool, could be professional picture to frame and hang.

          We’ve got a bunch of them, but only one has actually made it out of the digital world and into a frame so far. :(

          • Always a NYer :

            I’m the same way. I have a few photos like that from my trip last summer and none of them have made it off my camera card yet. One day…

  6. Love the snood. Own several. They’re my favorite – no hat hair!

    Threadjack — does anyone own the Talbots “Faux Wrap” wool dress? I got one this weekend in black (on sale for $51) and I really love it, but can’t tell if it will be one of those lint magnet pieces or if it just got a bit rumpled on the clearance rack. I’m nervous to take the tags off. Also wondering if anyone has a non-black color as there is a green on sale online that I have my eye on, but I don’t want to get it if it doens’t wear well. Last Talbots sweater I got developed a mysterious hole after 2 wears. Fwiw – if you don’t mind the lint (or random hole) potential, the black is super flattering (imo) and incredibly comfy.

  7. New Associate Woes :

    Hi Corporettes!
    I am in desperate need of some advice. I am a new associate at a mid-size (about 75 attorneys in my office) in a larger mid-western city. I just started in September and am feeling completely lost, helpless, and plain unmotivated. I know this is normal, but I just honestly feel like I have no idea about what I am doing/supposed to be doing. I am so stressed about billing hours (which seems utterly impossible), and I have no time to do anything other than eat, work, sleep, and drive to and from work (I have an hour commute each way).

    I try to have a good attitude, but each day it seems to get worse. For example, I thought I was working hard and getting things done all day today, but when I went to turn my research into a partner, he told me he had just gone ahead and done it himself because he needed it faster. He never communicated to me about getting it done faster (even though I know it’s not a partner’s job to communicate to associates), and now I feel like I just 1.) wasted part of my day and 2.) let down one of the biggest partners by being too slow.
    I want to be motivated and do a great job at work, but I am finding this transition so difficult.

    Everyday I come to work I feel like I am doing everything wrong and will get fired and I have only been here less than 3 months!
    HELP!

    Read more: http://corporette.com/2011/11/21/coffee-break-loose-rib-knitted-snood/#ixzz1eNK9RJ8M

  8. I was just going to come in here and post about the term “snood” and ask when this thing changed from an infinity scarf or circle scarf to a snood. But, a bunch of you beat me to it.

    I don’t like them, but whatever name. Mostly because my favorite part about the scarf is the part that hangs and can be used as “filler” for the V part of a blazer, jacket or cardigan.

  9. anonymous :

    I thought a “snood” was a net worn to control a bun.

  10. snood hater :

    Whatever they are called, I think they look ridiculous and not at all professional. More like a hipster alternative to a scarf…but heck, what’s wrong with a scarf?

    • Equity's Darling :

      A circle-scarf won’t fall off my neck if I fail to tie it properly. And I don’t have to tie it at all, so it’s easy/fast to put on. And convenient if I forget my hat.

      That being said, I’m 24, and you may consider me a hipster, but I also legitimately like the circle scarves (and, I’m like 8 months away from being a lawyer, so, it’s not like I’m just a hipster perusing Corporette….)

      • You are “about” or “approximately” or just plain old 8 months away… but not “like” 8 months….
        I am not trying to be snotty- but you will thank me later.

        Young professional women must stop saying “like”– let’s not give the establishment yet another reason to doubt our authority or competence!

        • Equity's Darling :

          Just as an “FYI”, I generally use the informal version of things when I post here (e.g. see above where I use “whatevs”, which I don’t actually use in my professional life, but I do use with friends).

          Also I took latin throughout high school, and my latin teacher snapped her fingers every time I used it, which took the “like” right out of me.

          So don’t worry, I have the “like” on lock down when I talk to people at work. I just don’t feel the need to use the professional version of my language when on Corporette.

          And the “establishment” doesn’t doubt me, I promise. My accounting degree and law degree ensure that I’m am firmly ensconced as part of the establishment.

          • Love this exchange! I love how this site can stay non-confrontational when we’re trying to make each other more professional!
            Go ‘rettes!

          • Gross.

          • Not directed at you, 1L-1, but this chick who can’t seem to stop bragging about her pedigree.

        • While “the establishment” (and my dad!) may prefer that we express ourselves without the use of “like,” it’s interesting to note that its use in this context (called “quotative like” by linguists) is documented and valid. If you are a dork like me, see here for more: http://www.jstor.org/pss/455910.

          Of course, linguists are of the opinion that language is constantly evolving and take a descriptive view rather than a prescriptive one (i.e., we’ll observe you and describe how you use language without any judgment – we won’t lay down the law and say what are the right and wrong ways of speaking/writing.)

      • Except that using “like” is one of the ways we build common language and community with other young women…

    • I love them, and I am 42 and far from being able to pass even as hipster-adjacent. But I wouldn’t wear one to work. Something this chunky is weekend wear for me (or at most, weekday commuting wear).

  11. Gooseberry :

    Looking for some advice from the Hive. I’m in house and I (somewhat regularly) work with a partner at a reputable law firm. Prior to today, I have always been the “junior” party when I’ve been on phone calls with him, because we tend to use him in areas that more affect my boss’s projects than my own. Today, I called him for a question of my own, and naturally he asked all sorts of questions about what law school I went to, what year I graduated, etc. Personally, I always assume this is the “professional” way to ask someone their age, and it annoys the [avoiding moderation] out of me.

    Well, he made TWO comments about my age (31) after I told him when I graduated school. The first was a technology joke, which he noted I probably didn’t get since I grew up with computers. Sort of annoying, but OK, fine. The second was that when we were hanging up I said, “Nice to speak with you, [name].” And, he said….. “Goodbye, kid.”

    KID?? GOODBYE KID?? Seriously?

    So, should I have said something? I fear that defending that situation always proves the other person’s point somehow. But, seriously, how rude!

    Any thoughts?

    • Always a NYer :

      Assuming that he’s older than you (and could potentially be old enough to be your father), I don’t think he said any of that to tick you off. He’s probably just used to that sort of teasing/ribbing. Just laugh at the “kid” part and if you find that he is the type for friendly banter, maybe make an “old man” quip. But only do that if you’re certain he will find it funny.

      Btw, I was totally reminded of Stephanie Tanner’s trademark, “How rude!” with your last comment. Now I’m thinking about how hot Uncle Jesse was…

      • Mmmm, Uncle Jesse’s hotness. Did you see him on Glee, singing and dancing? It was quite pleasant.

        Oh, and also I was actually going to comment that I’m 31, too, and the talk about having grown up with computers always cracks me up. I guess we were just poor, but my family didn’t get a computer until I was in college.

        • I only grew up with a computer because my dad was a bit of computer geek. Definitely not the norm. Hell, I remember booting from DOS (no Windows), the introduction of the mouse as a peripheral, and when there wasn’t an internet. And I’m only 30.

          I do not, however, have any experience with the telephone party line.

          • AnonInfinity :

            We totally had a party line until I was about 10 (currently 29) because I lived way out in the country.

          • SF Bay Associate :

            I remember booting from DOS too, and am also 30. We had an Apple II back in the day.

          • We had a party line, too – out in Western Mass (population of 200 in the 70’s).

            My dad worked for Digital so I know all about old school computers.

      • Anonymous :

        At least he said “kid.” It’s kind of like “sport” or “champ” which I think is fine. “Dear,” “sweetie,” or “honey” from an older man can be bad. While there seems to be ageism in there, it could be worse to deal if there were sexism dripping from it too.

      • My boss is only 14 years older than me, and he always calls me and others “kiddo”. It’s just his style, and I imagine the same could be said of this lawyer in question.

    • Do you think he’s trying this in a misguided attempt to flirt with you? Sometimes dudes just don’t know how to do it.

      If you want to shut it down, you could tell him, “Hey, I know there’s an age difference, but I’m a very competent attorney and don’t really appreciate the comments about how young an inexperienced I am.” And then move on.

      • Gooseberry :

        Thanks, Hel-lo. The age difference is more along the lines that Always a NYer suggested — he’s definitely old enough to be my father (graduated law school before I was born).

        I’m nervous to come off as rude or unprofessional, or to look younger than I am because I’m “mad” about being called young. (I keep envisioning a seven year old red in the face trying to explain to someone that, no, she is actually SEVEN AND A HALF.) But, really, I think it’s kind of demeaning to call someone “kid” with whom you have no personal relationship.

        • Never mind the fact that you really can’t tell how old a person is by when s/he graduated from law school. I finished law school in my 30s, and I think about half my coworkers did as well. Some of these coworkers are in their 60s now.

      • You’re not seven and a half. You’re a professional. He shouldn’t be treating you like a child. I think sometimes people just don’t know what they’re doing.

        …Or he could be trying to strategically undermine you. If that’s true, don’t let it happen.

        This is the kind of thing I go back to Nice Girls Don’t Get the Corner Office for.

        • Gooseberry :

          Thanks so much Hel-lo. I need someone like you on my shoulder a bit more often. (And, THIS is why I love Corporette!)

          • Gooseberry, you sound really defensive, and Hel-lo’s advice is awful, urging you to be as uncharitable as possible in looking at people’s intentions. Good God, this guy’s not trying to undermine you. Why read so much into it? Just let it go.

        • I agree that the remark was inappropriate, but I would be inclined to let it slide. I’ve gotten comments like this before, but more often than not they don’t seem mean-spirited, but just a way for the older person to deal with some discomfort in interacting with someone his/her kid’s age. My mom said it was a shock to her when people my age started showing up at her Fortune 500 company (although she would never make such a remark). So, while I agree he shouldn’t have said it, I don’t think it warrants calling him out in an offended way. Probably once you interact with him a couple of times he’ll get used to it.

        • I was once walking with a 50-something male colleague. We were discussing work as we talked. We were approaching the elevators, and needed to get to an office 3 stories up. I suggested we take the stairs. Because he didn’t want to seem old, he agreed. We kept the conversation going on the stairs. By the top, he was panting. I was fine. He never disrespected my age again.

      • Anonymous :

        Actually I think he was trying NOT to sexualize the OP or flirt with her. “Kid” is so in the tiger, sport, champ, boy-o, old bean, universe. My guess is he wanted to express some amount of affection and was trying very hard not to flirt with her in any way.

        I’d find out how old his kids are. Would bet money they’re within 5 years of the OPs age.

        I’d let it slide if it’s just a one time thing. Otherwise, I’d call him Old Man the next time he calls you kid.

        • This. Call him “gramps” or “old man.” Next time. It makes your point without looking like you take yourself too seriously. It puts you on more equal ground. Also, it’s funny.

          Now, a tangent on looking young: a few weeks ago, a lady randomly approached me while we were waiting outside the courtroom and asked if I were really old enough to be a lawyer. I’m used to those comments by now (I hear something to that effect once a week, minimum), but it still bums me out when I’m wearing a suit, in the courthouse, with an id badge, and someone still has to point out that I look like a teenager. I laugh it off, but it’s certainly not a confidence booster. It’s also the main reason I rarely indulge in casual friday– in jeans, I seriously look all of 16. It’s like poor Alexis Bledel, who could still convincingly play a high school kid at age 30.

          • Alanna of Trebond :

            Not to nitpick anything else, but as a Gilmore Girls fan, she is NOW 30 years old, and was actually 19 when she began playing Rory. Which is not so much a stretch for high school.

            I think she only played a high schooler in that first Sisterhood Pants movie, but haven’t kept up with that.

          • @Alanna- yes, but I meant she still looks exactly the same. Google 2011 pics of her. And per imdb, she still gets a considerable number of rolls playing teenagers. I think it has hurt her career because she looks too young to convincingly play a woman age 25+.

            I saw that she was on Conan recently saying that she got hit on by a high school boy at the airport (who thought she was the same age).

    • Given the age difference, I would look on this as a term of, not endearment, but more mentor-relationship. I know several people who use the term “kiddo” to refer to younger people in an affectionate, encouraging way. I would not be offended.

      You’re 31, many years younger than him (and me) but old enough not to be offended but this type of comment. I sort of took it that he had been impressed enough by your prior contacts that he was a bit surprised at your age.

      Now, sweetie, dearie, or honey–those are words to get offended at!

      • I’ve been called “kid” by two people professionally – both were old enough to be my father and on the verge of grandfather. I had a very friendly relationship with both of them so I didn’t mind it. I don’t think “kid” is in the same camp as “sweetie,” which I would mind.

      • Gooseberry :

        Thanks very much, everyone. I really appreciate this community, and this was EXACTLY what I needed to hear.

        And, thanks for the perspective, “a lawyer.” Your comment was really helpful and shed a lot of light on what may have been (and, of course, I hope might be) the case.

    • This guy works for you. If you don’t like his attitude, use someone else in the future.

      • This! I’d let it slide if it happens only once, but if it happens again, I would just kindly ask him to call you by your name. You are his client, so you shouldn’t feel embarrassed asking for respect where it’s due.

    • I am 52 — but on good days, at least, look quite a bit younger. (This was hard when I was, say, 30 and heard all those comments about not being old enough to be an attorney; now I appreciate it). I work in an extremely male-dominated field (union-side labor) and have several clients — ranging from a few to maybe 15 years older than me — and even one regularly opposing counsel who STILL routinely call me “kiddo” and “young lady.” They are in other ways entirely respectful and I take the comments in the same way male attorneys might be called “buddy.”

      That said, I also often get called honey, sweetheart and the like, and my response depends on the source. Particularly when it’s someone I don’t know well — or who seems to be condescending, sexist or just creepy — I’ll point out reprovingly that the term is inappropriate or more jokingly that only my husband and father can call me that. With other men, particularly those with whom I’ve worked for years and who I know respect my abilities and advice, I take it as part of the culture and don’t take offense. I’ve worked for corporate clients who would never dream of calling me “baby” — but who always made it clear that the male senior attorney needed to back up everything I said and did. I’d rather have a client call me sweetheart and listen to my advice.

      I do recognize that the culture is different in different fields, and what I’ll take from a rough-around-the-edges union represenative is different from what is to be expected in the corporate world. I also distinguish between terms of endearment and inappropriate comments or harassment. In 19 years in this field, I’ve had perhaps three incidents of offensive jokes or inappropriate comments about my appearance; I’ve pointed out each time why the remark was inappropriate or offensive and the conduct has stopped.

  12. Little Lurker :

    I’m not getting into the whole snood thing, but rest assured, Orthodox Jewish married ladies have been rocking real snoods for years.

    Actual question:

    The female janitor in my office is going to be all alone for Thanksgiving this year. Her son isn’t coming home from college (I have the feeling it’s too expensive), and the rest of her family is in Mexico. I asked if she was planning to spend the day with friends and she said, “It’s a day of rest” [from her two jobs].

    Maybe I’m just even more homesick than usual (flying out on Thursday!), but that made me pretty sad. Is it out of line to bake her gingerbread turkey cookies? My family hasn’t done this since I was like 9, but it was super fun. I could bring some back on the plane when I return.

    Other thoughts on something small/caring?

    • Blonde Lawyer :

      I think that is awesome and you should totally do it. If God forbid, your flight gets cancelled, the two of you should get dinner out somewhere together. 1000 LL points for your kindness.

    • different perspective :

      If she’s originally from Mexico, then Thanksgiving probably doesn’t have the emotional resonance for her that it does for those born in the US. She probably feels sadder about working on days which are big holidays in Mexico.

    • I think it’s a great idea.

    • SF Bay Associate :

      The cookies are a really sweet idea, but it makes me think of what my former admins have always said and what’s in ATL today – the gift is lovely, but what I really need/want is time off and extra money. This lady’s working two jobs to make ends meet. Even if you do only cookies now, and again, it’s a really sweet idea, be sure to remember her when it comes to holiday gifts (i.e. gift cards) for your staff.

      • agree with this – but only when it comes to group gifts. singling her out with a one-on-one gift of money might be a bit presumptuous, unless you really feel like you have a personal relationship with her. your call.

    • I just think it would make her feel awkward. I’ve lived abroad before and most of the holidays they had there really had no meaning to me. I’d just use them as a time to relax or enjoy some downtime. I do not think I’d want someone feeling sorry for me because I wasn’t participating in the same way as people who find meaning in the holiday do.

      • Edited to add that my family is not really big on holidays. We are all very happy with this arrangement, but it makes me angry when people insist on feeling bad for me or telling me how sad they feel that my family doesn’t really celebrate. Sometimes I feel like people are so intent upon making sure that others celebrate the holiday like they do that they don’t really consider how others may like to celebrate their holidays (if at all).

        • Sometime a cookie is just a cookie. Even if Thanksgiving means nothing to her and she will only be relaxing on her off day, cookies mean that LL thought of her and went out of her way to show her a kindness. I doubt that anyone would feel badly about that.

          Kudos to you LL for a thoughtful gesture. Do it.

    • Little Lurker :

      Thanks all for the thoughtful responses!

      I’m too junior to have “my” staff and she and I have been pulling crazy overtime together lately on all the stuff going on.

      And yeah, I know Thanksgiving isn’t a big deal in Mexico. I’m definitely projecting here.

  13. Hi ladies,

    Turning to you for some shopping help: I’ve been looking for a pair of a lace up booties and just cannot find anything that meets my criteria. I’m looking for (preferably) a heel, not a wedge, 2-3 inches, and suede or fake sued. Would love grey, but flexible on color. Okay, it’s not an emergency or anything, but I just really, really want some. :) And I’d like to spend less than $150 since I’ll only where them in the winter and on weekends. Thanks in advance to anyone who has suggestions!

  14. Ugh. I was just in a football/BCS/playoff system discussion with two of my male colleagues. They would NOT let me get a word in edgewise, even though they both know that I follow college football really closely. I have a lot of thoughts on the issue and kept trying to respond to someone else’s comment or give my thoughts or facts that I know, etc., but you could really just tell it was an A & B conversation. I was in the conversation from the beginning, so one of the guys knew I like the bowl system. Anyway, once the other guy came, I probably tried seven times to say something and was cut off. So I just said, “I’d better get back to work,” probably in a somewhat irritated tone, and went back to my office. One of the guys just came into my office and said, “No hard feelings about the playoff system,” as if he thought I was offended because we disagreed about whether there should be playoffs! I swear, guys would rather talk to guys about sports, regardless of your knowledge of the issue or passion for it. It’s so irritating. And I can pretty much guarantee I know more about college football than guy #2.

    • I have not found this to be true at all. It sounds like the were just having a conversation, not edging you out because you are a woman.

      • I disagree (obviously :)). I think it is generally true that gender doesn’t matter, because I’ve had millions of these conversations over the years. Here, however, I was having the conversation with guy #1 first, and then guy #2 walked up about 10 minutes later, and they edged me out.

        • The part that really irritates me is that I was offended because they were being rude (regardless of gender) and then he assumed I was offended because I can’t have a substantive disagreement with someone.

          • isn’t it possible that they weren’t cutting you out due to your gender, but simply because they were intent on proving their point to the other guy, or proving him wrong (or whatever) and would have effectively cut out any 3rd party attempts to chime in, whether that 3rd party was a man or a woman? doesn’t matter if you were there first, or second, or third.

            sometimes 2 people just get really worked up about a particular issue – certainly in sports this happens a lot – and they’re just deaf to other voices. you don’t have to assume it was because you’re a woman …

          • I’m not generally one who is quick to blame things on my gender. But it was pretty clear that’s what happened. Guy #1 and I were disagreeing and having a pretty good debate. Guy #2 (who knows less about football than I do) walked up to join the conversation. Guy #2 agreed with me. Suddenly, Guy #1 and Guy #2 are having the debate that Guy #1 and I were originally having. I don’t see any other reason for me to be excluded.

          • Well if you are only going to look for sexism, you will probably always find it. To me it sounds like they were just arguing, and it sounds like you came off irritated so that’s why he apologized.

          • Conversely, if you refuse to ever see gender as an explanation, you will always find another reason. Doesn’t mean it’s not a factor though.

    • Been there and can sympathize. Sometimes it’s just two guys being rude and excluding a third person, male or female, from the conversation. Other times, I’ve noticed that a lot of guys can be intimidated if it seems like the woman they’re talking to knows more about whatever sport than they do.

      It’s frustrating, but eventually a lot of the guys I work with realized that I actually do know something of which I speak, and they actively include me on email chains, jokes, conversations about our chosen sports, etc. I’ve found that guys you’ll want to keep talking about these things will eventually come around. The guys that always exclude you from these conversations are (coincidentally?) the same types that I choose not to converse with extensively on ANY topic of conversation.

      (All of this advice is given with the caveat that the BCS system is terrible and we should have play-offs). :)

    • Barrister in the Bayou :

      Geaux Tigers! ;-)

      • Wooooooooo!!!! Pig Sooie!!!!!!!!!!

      • SF Bay Associate :

        I was in NoLa for a wedding during one of the bowls that LSU played at the Dome… against Alabama maybe??? I had never seen anything like it. There were cars everywhere with tiger tails on their tailpipes (possibly the most awesome fan gear I’ve ever seen) and flags clipped to their windows. There were grandmothers and babies and everyone in between with full tiger facepaint and matching clothing. An entire sea of purple and yellow people. It was amazing, incredible, scary, and fascinating all at once. I felt like I was in another country.

    • I think some people just get really into their conversations and can’t let anyone else get a word in. We had something similar last week at lunch when we were discussing gambling techniques. Everyone was just so heated about his view that it didn’t matter what anyone else had to say. I don’t think I was ignored just because I was female- it was more that the people arguing were stubborn.

    • I had a little gathering at my house this weekend, and two of the men ended up in a heated sports discussion, letting no one else in. Since I *don’t* follow sports, I was able to follow their conversation as an observer.

      It occurred to me in the moment that they were like male birds, puffing out their feathers to outdo each other. The conversation was not at all about hearing the other’s viewpoint, but rather about each showing off what he knew. With a captive audience.

      So, not to get all weird about your work relationships, because it probably wasn’t intentional, but it it possible that at some deep level, these two male birds were fanning their plumage to compete for you?

    • b23–Rightly or wrongly, I would have been annoyed and taken it personally as well. Others have points here, but I just know that in your shoes I would have had the same feeling. This has happened to me, though with finance rather than sports. I frequently feel edged out by men who know less than I do.

      FWIW, what I would have done: when one of them stopped by and said “no hard feelings about the playoff system” I would have said “no, I just couldn’t get a word in, that’s all.” When I do things like this I often get a surprised look, but then a much better result next time the same situation comes up. Next time the 3 of you are in the same place, one guy might say “b23 is annoyed that we didn’t listen to her last time!” and you’ll smile, but you will also have the floor to make your point(s).

      I know stuff like this seems trivial, but I don’t think it is.

    • Agreed completely. I work with six men, who cannot believe I know anything about sports. I actually do not like football but am a marathoner and know a lot about running. A couple get really bored in a hurry if I start talking about running, and they don’t bother to hide it. On the other hand, I am supposed to sit quietly during firm lunches while they waste time talking about football. I’ve learned to take my iphone and catch up on emails if it gets really unsufferable, and I don’t bother to hide THAT. (One plays with his ipad during lunch).

      In this situation, you will probably feel better if you do not make an effort to participate once it becomes clear you are not “invited” into the conversation. Just leave and go back to work at the beginning of the conversation instead of putting yourself through that kind of rudeness.

  15. New Associate Woes :

    Hi Corporettes!
    I am in desperate need of some advice. I I just started as a new associate in September and am feeling completely lost, helpless, and plain unmotivated. I know this is normal, but I just honestly feel like I have no idea about what I am doing/supposed to be doing. I am so stressed about billing hours (which seems utterly impossible), and I have no time to do anything other than eat, work, sleep, and drive to and from work (I have an hour commute each way).

    I try to have a good attitude, but each day it seems to get worse. For example, I thought I was working hard and getting things done all day today, but when I went to turn my research into a partner, he told me he had just gone ahead and done it himself because he needed it faster. He never communicated to me about getting it done faster (even though I know it’s not a partner’s job to communicate to associates), and now I feel like I just 1.) wasted part of my day and 2.) let down one of the biggest partners by being too slow.

    I want to be motivated and do a great job at work, but I am finding this transition so difficult. I’m at the point where I just don’t even care because it seems impossible to know what everyone wants me to be doing. I am trying to integrate myself into the practice group, but I feel that I am just stepping on everyone’s toes and interfering with their work.

    Everyday I come to work I feel like I am doing everything wrong and will get fired and I have only been here less than 3 months!
    HELP!

    • I can’t address the motivation per se though it will get better as you get more settled and more involved in cases, but I can give some general advice on integrating in.

      (1) You need to get a more experienced associate ally who you can bounce things off. It also helps to be able to talk about your concerns with someone in the department who can give you good advice and just commiserate.

      (2) When given a new assignment always ask the following things (a) when do you need this by, (b) how long do you want me to take on this (they should have a general idea of billable hours they want spent on a project), (c) what form do you want the project in, and (d) what’s the billing number (I always forgot this one!). This allows you to judge how extensive a project they want it to be and how detailed a response they want. It also allows you to manage expectations. If its a writing assignment, ask if they have a sample they like.

      (3) Follow-up with partners when you’ve done an assignment for them. See if they need anything else, or just ask what ended up happening with the brief or whatever. Also, if a project is large and multi-day, check back in with partners periodically. Tell them where you’re going with the project so they can tell you if you seem to be going in the right direction or if you’re veering off track.

      (4) Try to build a mentorship relationship early with a partner. You need to become a partner’s go-to person.

      And just repeat the mantra — everyone feels like this…everyone feels like this…everyone feels like this.

      • I’m a lawyer, but not in a firm. From what I’ve heard, many of my peers who went to firms felt the same way at first. Take a deep breath and learn from what went wrong- Next time, find out what they expect as TCFKAG suggested. Take that, and apply it to the next project. As long as you keep improving, you won’t be fired anytime soon. And don’t feel bad for asking questions. Ask your questions confidently, not apologetically, if that makes sense. You have every right to ask questions about what is expected of you, especially in the very beginning.**

        As a practical matter, almost all firms will give a new associate at least six months to a year before summarily firing them for performance reasons. Everyone expects you to have an adjustment period while you learn the ropes. For most big law firms (in the AmLaw sense), I believe, based on my friends’ experiences, that they don’t typically start firing associates for performance reasons until 2 years in.

        ** Disclaimer: I realized very early in my summer associateship that I was not suited for big law firm life, so I am not necessarily the best resource. I defer to the many ladies on here who have more experience in this area.

    • hey! not a lawyer, so I don’t have much to add other than stay strong. but I do think you’d get some more useful feedback if you posted this on something tomorrow morning.

    • I’m not a lawyer, so I don’t have law firm-specific advice… but one thing I thought of is: For each piece of work, can you ask when the person needs it done? That would help you schedule and also you’d have a better idea if you’re on track.

      Ugh, my first boss did the same thing to me: “I finally finished the task you gave me, here it is!” “Oh, yeah, I already finished that a while ago.” Grrrrr – why couldn’t he at least tell me right when he finished it, so I could stop working on it and do something else?!?

      Hang in there, Thanksgiving’s coming up and hopefully you’ll get a little rest :)

    • I actually smiled reading this post. Congratulations – you are having the quintessential first year experience. It gets better around year 2.5.

    • Fane Fairfax :

      Ah yes, the new associate blues. I wish that I could say that the feeling that you are doing everything wrong goes away entirely (unless maybe you are rock star partner, but I have not and may never reach that level) but it does get less and less frequent as you learn your job. That’s right, learn your job. Nobody (well no reasonable person anyway) actually expects a first year associate to know what they are doing. What they do expect however, is that you master the basics. By basics I mean: 1). What is the scope of the project? (i.e. how many hours are budgeted); 2). What sort work product is expected? (Ask for a sample. Collect a file of samples. You may want to organize your file by partner, they all have different preferences and some preferences will be completely arbitrary.); 3).When is it due? (This is the MOST important thing you need to find out, do not leave the assigning attorney’s office until you do. Then get the project done by the deadline. You could write the most brilliant memo ever written, if you turn it in late, no one will think it is brilliant, they will think it is late. If the partner/senior associate has to stay late, miss their golf game, whatever, because the most brilliant memo ever written was turned in late, they will not notice your brilliance, they will hold a grudge. If horror of horrors you realize that you will not meet the deadline (hey, it happens), let the partner/senior associate know. Nobody likes to be surprised and if they know ahead of time they can plan and will be less likely to hold a grudge. They may even give you some pointers that will help you meet the deadline.). Some partners and most senior associates will volunteer this information; otherwise it is your job to pry it out. Think of it as deposition training.
      Otherwise, take a deep breath and give yourself time to learn. You’ve been working less than 3 months. You have 40 years (give or take) to go before retirement.
      One of the most impressive rock star partners at my firm once told me that she didn’t really feel like she knew what she was doing most of the time until she had been practicing for five years.

    • I started not so long ago as well. I’d come off a fantastic deferral year and transitioning to law firm life almost made me implode. For the first few months, I was stressed out, exhausted, and nasty (to loved ones in my personal life, I’m embarrassed to say). I dreaded coming to work every single day. I remember being on my way to work and just being so, utterly miserable – to a point where I felt like it wasn’t normal and I should just quit. It didn’t help that I was racking up nearly 300 hours a month those first few months, so I’d get home in the evening or early morning and literally make a beeline for my bed. Anyway, I can’t pinpoint when, but at some point everything just starts to fall into place. You start to understand how to answer e-mails, how to interact with partners and senior associates, what is expected of you – and you begin to adjust your expectations so that the 30 minutes/1hour/2 hours/whatever it is of downtime you get each day is valued rather than resented because it seems like so little time. I still feel clueless and stressed at some point nearly everyday, but it’s nowhere as acute as it was several months ago. You just have to learn to take each small victory as it comes, even if it seems completely trivial (e.g., a client called with a quick question and I’m almost certain I didn’t sound like an idiot. Almost.) If you care enough to post on Corporette about this, then you care enough so that people notice you do. One senior associate told me once that the most helpful thing is knowing that the junior cares about whatever project that they’re working on, and about their work product — this is something you can always tell, and you’d be surprised at how many people really don’t, so I’d say you’re ahead of the game on this one. Good luck!

  16. Someone on a national email list I’m on sent out a link to this website, and I can’t stop lusting after the jewelery on it. I know the holidays are close, and I’ve already sent my family and boyfriend a list of what I want… but I want this stuff, too! (Especially because it is for a good cause.)

    Beaded bracelets: http://ohmymaya.org/shop/category/bracelets

    Multicolored necklace: http://ohmymaya.org/shop/colorful-5-strand-beaded-necklace

    Toursade necklaces: http://ohmymaya.org/shop/12-strand-beaded-necklaces-and-chokers

  17. I have a gorgeous red cashmere snood/infinity scarf. I just broke it out with my wool coat today. Oh, and age-wise I’m 41.

    A couple of people asked me to post my cranberry pie recipe in the morning thread. I totally stole it from The Pioneer Woman:
    http://thepioneerwoman.com/cooking/2010/11/nantucket-cranberry-pie/

    • OMG *drool*

      Thanks for posting it, Bunkster! I hope ELLEN sees this too, though she may be too stressed out from makeing her TURKEYE to BAKE too.

    • Did you ever read The Pioneer Woman’s story of how she got together with her handsome cowboy? It is on her blog in several installments and I could not stop reading it at work one day. I thought my CFO was going to come in and give me the axe, but I was riveted for hours.

  18. anon for this :

    can anyone tell me how taking a weekend vacation works in biglaw? I’m a new associate (<3 months in) and am hoping to go away for a weekend soon. I won't be taking anytime off during normal business hours (leaving fri. night, coming back sun. night) and i will have my blackberry with me and be within a couple hours drive of the office in case something comes up that requires me to actually come in. in these circumstances, is it necessary to give people the heads up in advance? based on what i've seen so far, the more senior assoicates are really judgy and kind of bitchy about people taking vacation, so to the extent i can keep it "on the down low" and just work from my hotel room if necessary, i would really prefer to do that. i might add that i have yet to actually go into the office over the weekend…i do regularly work from home.

  19. anon for this :

    can anyone tell me how taking a weekend vacation works in biglaw? I’m a new associate (<3 months in) and am hoping to go away for a weekend soon. I won't be taking anytime off during normal business hours (leaving fri. night, coming back sun. night) and i will have my blackberry with me and be within a couple hours drive of the office in case something comes up that requires me to actually come in. in these circumstances, is it necessary to give people the heads up in advance? based on what i've seen so far, the more senior assoicates are really judgy about people taking vacation, so to the extent i can keep it "on the down low" and just work from my hotel room if necessary, i would really prefer to do that. i might add that i have yet to actually go into the office over the weekend…i do regularly work from home.

    • This is soooo office specific. I work in biglaw, but unless I am expecting something to come in over the weekend, I don’t look at my blackberry from Friday 6 PM to Monday 7 AM. If someone really needs me, they’ll call (I keep the ringer on), but I don’t monitor my blackberry.

      On the other hand, there’s the famous Quinn Emmanuel email (google “check you blackberry” and you’ll find it), and another post I remember from ATL about a firm that required pre-approval of weekend vacations.

    • Agree with cbackson re office specific, but I would lean towards don’t ask permission. Like you said, you’re not going during business hours. It sets bad precedent to ask permission. Just go. Take your blackberry and, if you think you need to, your laptop. If you’ve been working from home regularly and have yet to make a weekend office appearance, nobody will be the wiser.

    • Kind of a know your office, know your workload situation, but I would lean toward keeping it on the DL until the topic of what everyone’s doing for the weekend comes up – i.e., “oh, we’re going to a wedding in X.” Just playing out best case worst case:

      You tell people in advance on your initiative, casually-
      best case they don’t care and you can go
      worst case they are annoyed and/or they think you don’t want additional assignments in case they interfere – is the trip worth it?

      You tell people in advance on your own initiative, but note that you could change your plans (in my office, this is what I would do, but in the context of “do you think these plans are relatively safe? I could push back departure depending on what happens Friday” – but I am a midlevel and have established myself as a hard worker, and am always able to work from home on the weekends/getaways)-
      best case again, they don’t care
      worst case, they are annoyed and/or take you up on the offer and you have to leave late or possibly cancel

      You don’t tell anyone-
      best case, you go and it doesn’t matter at all
      worst case, you have to cancel or delay (which you would have to do anyway even if you told in advance), or work from the location.

    • I agree with the “know your office” advice, but to me, it sounds like you have all of your bases covered. You intend to be on your blackberry and you can get back if you need to get back. I would bounce it off a junior associate (but only if you have one you trust!) just to double check, but I imagine that so long as you work from the hotel room if you need to, you’re ok and you don’t need to let anyone else know. I would temper this with the caveat that I don’t know your practice area. I do regulatory work, so it’s easy for me to work remotely, but my corporate friends have to be in the office to actually get their work done. Then again, if you’re a few hours away, I still think you’re ok.

      I would also add that you should be prepared for work to blow up while you’re gone (read: don’t drink too much!) because I’ve definitely had it happen to me (I get off the plane/out of the car and WHAMMO – work central … or worse, I finally sit down to lunch with family and order a glass of wine and then BOOM – the “where the heck is this doc” email arrives).

    • Kind of surprised at the responses. If nothing’s busy, I wouldn’t ask for “permission,” really, but I’d give at least all my teams a heads-up. I had tons of weddings this past summer and, in addition to me feeling better about being away and not like I was “sneaking” away, I feel like my teams also made an effort to not bother me as much, or take my plans into account. FWIW, my office may be different: I check my Blackberry on the weekends as often as I do during the weekdays and I get the impression that that’s a firm-wide expectation. I also normally check in on Friday evenings with my teams for deals that are active or semi-active just to let them know if there’s a specific chunk of time I’ll definitely be out of commission – e.g., I have dinner plans, I have family in town, etc. The times where I’ve been screwed is when I haven’t made it very clear I have a life outside the firm and I’ve set X amount of time to attend to it (otherwise, the assumption is that you’re available).

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