Weekend Open Thread

Something on your mind? Chat about it here.

I am definitely feeling that itch for spring that one gets after too many gray days — so a bright, sunny day is on my wish list right now! I haven’t browsed Topshop’s sunglasses selection before, but they have a bunch of cute ones! These yellow hexagonal ones look so cute — love the unusual color and shape, and the purple lens. They’re $50 at Topshop. Yellow Oversize Hexagon Sunglasses By Squint Topshop

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  1. Woods-comma-Elle :

    I’m so glad it’s the weekend! Hopefully no working this weekend, v frustrating couple of days at work where I’ve been quiet until late afternoon and then had to stay late on something coming in. The last two hours I was just waiting for someone to agree a two page document but now finally the weekend is here!

    Enjoy, everyone!

  2. I am seething with anger reading about Limbaugh’s comments toward Sandra Fluke. Discourse like this makes me grateful for the Corporette community, where differences of opinion do not turn into personal attacks.

    • SF Bay Associate :

      +1. I caught his rant on Good Morning America today and my jaw just hit the floor. Flames… flames…on the sides of my face…

      • Why is GMA even giving him and airtime? Shouldn’t he stick to Fox News?

        • SF Bay Associate :

          GMA aired a couple choice Limbaugh clips as set up/background for the Georgetown law student’s testimony, and then her response when she was interviewed on some news magazine last night (probably an ABC news magazine).

      • Goosebumpy :

        Love Clue. Loathe Rush.

      • I agree. Why should MEN think they are ANY better then us? After all if there is sex requireing contraception, there are 2 people involved and the other is a MAN!

        FOOEY on men who want to tell us we are bad when they are involved alot in this process! DOUBLE FOOEY on Rush Limbouw!

      • There’s safety in numbers, my dear.

    • I can’t understand why anyone even listens to him anymore. Sometimes I think he’s secretly a liberal who deliberately is trying to undermine the conservative agenda with his ridiculous comments.

      • I said something along these lines today. I mean, there must be a lot of conservatives that are like, “WHAT?! No! Don’t say THAT. We don’t think THAT! AAAARRRRGGGGG…you are undermining everything.”

        [I mean, I hope that conservatives are saying that, otherwise y’all are just cray-cray ;)]

    • He’s become such a freaking parody of himself that I can’t even be outraged anymore. He’s just spiraled off into complete absurdity. One thing that is really nice is that EVERYONE seems to think he’s gone too far this time.

    • Kinda love that he doesn’t understand the difference between condoms and birth control though.. yes Rush I have to consume whole packs of pills everyday because I’m boinking so much.

    • Agreed. I just read them, and my jaw hit the floor. I cannot even begin to imagine how someone could be so hateful.

    • He’s intentionally inflammatory. He’s there to make money, and when he says things, like this or whatever else, he knows it will increase his listening audience. I believe he believes what he says, but he intentionally says in a way that will draw attention.

      FWIW, I listen to him regularly.

      • manomanon :

        the response from Georgetown’s president is pretty impressive- calling on the students to not fall to that level etc.


      • I’m honestly curious–what do you get out of listening to him regularly? Does his willingness to call a woman a pr*stitute and sl*t, and encourage her to post p*rnographic images online, not at all affect how you think of him?

        • No, it doesn’t. For the very reason I mention above. It’s intentionally inflammatory, and at the heart of it, I agree with what he’s saying (in this insistance, I agree w.r.t not subsidizing BC, not that she’s a sl*t because she has s*x). I guess I look at it like this, presumably those of you who watch the Daily Show, Colbert Report, or any of their ilk, agree at the premise with their politics, but ultimately the shows themselves are satire. I don’t consider Rush to be satire, but for the most part, I agree with his politics, and consider his show to be entertainment. You may or may not have noticed, but there isn’t a lot of options on TV or the radio for conservatives…

          • I lean right, but I don’t find that entertainment. If Colbert said something like that about a conservative, I would not watch again.

            I don’t care for Fluke’s testimony, and I don’t care for her general personality/attitude, but a private citizen has the right to testify to issues of importance to them without a nationally known man sexually degrading her. And Rush’s comments, demanding payment in the form of sexual videos, is sexually degrading to all women. If colbert made a sexually degrading comment like that about a student, I would hope that dems would be appalled to, even if he was sarcastic.

            Fluke just got a call from Obama . Hopefully that is what she will take out of the whole experience.

          • I don’t listen to him but I agree with what you are saying. I agree with some of Rush’s politics but I DO NOT condone the radical things he says on his shows and I really hate that his outburts are used to paint all conservatives with a broad brush, so to speak. I actually stopped listening to him because he is so hateful it is distracting from his underlying message.

          • I don’t understand the logic…Medicaid currently pays for abortion…how is it wrong then to subsidize birth control (a much better way to avoid unwanted pregnancy)! Where has the collective common sense gone???????

          • It applies to taxpayers and employers alike…everyone pays when there is an unwanted child whose parents can not or will not provide for their needs.

          • @anone – Medicaid is a government entitlement program for the very poor. Obama’s mandate would force private employers to pay for certain medical treatments for women who have employer-provided insurance. There’s an enormous difference between the two.

          • @anone the Hyde Amendment only allows medicaid to cover abortion in the cases of incest, rape or if the life of the mother is endangered. So the government very rarely covers abortion, and often cannot even fund a procedure if it would kill the mother.

          • The biggest issue with that reasoning in this instance is that I’ve never known the Colbert or Stewart to degrade a private citizen. While I disagree with Rush’s politics and therefore can’t see it through that lens, I cannot understand how listening to someone degrade college aged woman for being a sl*t can in any decent sense be seen as “entertainment.”

            Even with public officials he and his beyond “entertainment.” He’s crude, and lacks basic human decency. That is what I find so offensive about him, not his politics, despite the fact that I am firmly on the opposite end of the spectrum.

    • He’s a turd. As a matter of policy I don’t read, listen to, or really pay attention to anything related to him (unless they make fun of him on the Daily Show). So honestly I don’t even know what he said.

      Saves me some ulcer issues I think. :-P

      • Note: TCFKAG’s appropriate use of the word turd.

        • Which reminds me of the Santorum….um….issue.

          Sorry, I just had to go there. Google Santorum and Dan Savage if you don’t know about it, but not at work.

          • OK, making poop jokes about Santorum because they disagree with his politics are no better than calling someone a slut because they disagree with hers. I really can’t believe that there are adults that think that Savage thing is anything less than embarassing.

          • Yuck!

          • You don’t really think that making poop jokes is “no better” than calling a woman who uses birth control a slut? Really? I mean, the santorum thing is crude, but what Rush said about that woman is on a whole different level.

            As a supposedly educated woman, you must understand that.

    • WOW. Just watched the clip and I can’t even understand how someone like Rush could end up on a show. They fired Howard Stern from a radio station for his offensive comments about a minority group, and yet Rush can attack a respectable law student and women in general and still keep his job? I have to say, Fluke held it together much better than I would have. And I agree with cfm and AnonInfinity that the comments on too much s*x to afford BC… what? The amount of s*x you have and the BC that a lot of women use is largely unrelated! And then suggesting that they post videos to “repay” the cost of BC?!? WHAT?!?!

    • I know I may get flamed for this, but I’m just gonna go out on a limb here and state that (while his choice of rhetoric was inflammatory and disturbing), he and other members of the conservative media do have a point. Why should birth control be free? Why should taxpayers bear the burden of providing her contraception of choice? Why is this a “right” that the gov’t should have to provide?
      If she didn’t like the insurance plan at Georgetown, she could get her own insurance. That’s what I did during my 2L and 3L years because I didn’t like my school’s policy. I paid out the nose for it – but it was my choice. If that’s not an option, try your student health center (if your campus has one, the local health department, or Planned Parenthood. During my 1L year when I didn’t have insurance that covered prevantative care, I got my BC prescription at Planned Parenthood for ~$20 a month. Granted, I’ve never lived in DC but I have an incredibly hard time believing that a woman in that city couldn’t get contraception for less than $1K a year. And if BC is really costing you that much (and assuming you don’t have a medical need for it), go to CVS and just buy a box of condoms.

      • locomotive :

        It’s (this is to the best of my understanding) cheaper than the taxpayers footing the bill for raising a child. You might have been aware and savvy enough to get your own insurance, but not everyone realizes how that system works and how they can have access to birth control. Also, not everyone lives near a Planned Parenthood or an organization like that that can provide similar services. Birth control is WAY cheaper than putting a child through the foster system if it is a child that the parents did not desire and choose to give up.

        • I was just getting ready to type that, but will add: what about low-income women who end up having high-risk, unwanted pregnancies? That happened to a family acquaintance and his wife: they already had three kids, but ended up pregnant with triplets who stayed in the NICU for months after they were born. My tax dollars subsidized their hundreds of thousands of dollars of medical bills. Way cheaper to make sure women can access birth control.

          • Also, [smacks forehead]. I told myself I wouldn’t end up in any more political discussions on Corporette. But I can’t seem to resist.

          • Not sure if this is your strongest argument, since very poor women usually do not have health insurance (and therefore would not get the contraceptive benefit).

          • People realize this is really not about taxpayers right?

          • Yes a. thank you for engaging. When people have lost their damned minds it’s hard to avoid the discussion.

        • “People realize this is really not about taxpayers right?”


          • Can you clarify what you mean by this? Are you saying that the Catholic Church doesn’t pay taxes? I can read about 10 meanings into that and just want to be sure I understand what you’re saying. :)

        • “Can you clarify what you mean by this? Are you saying that the Catholic Church doesn’t pay taxes? I can read about 10 meanings into that and just want to be sure I understand what you’re saying. :)”

          Its about controlling women’s bodies and choices. Its about putting women who want to have control over their bodies, their sex life, their families, their lives in their place. It is about men exerting control over women.

          • (I used the quotes because I wasn’t sure that it would show up in the right place). It came out looking mimicky.

          • Okay, that was one of the meanings I took from it. Ha ha.

          • I would just like to hear one politician say “I don’t want to pay for your birth control, so men, keep your dick in your pants.” But instead, it has to be all about women keeping their legs closed.

      • It is just good public policy to subsidize birth control. It is hard to understand how anyone believes that a woman should not be allowed to have an abortion would not want to subsidize birth control. It is cheaper in the long run to avoid abortions, abused children, and children in foster care, and eventually prison. I just cannot think of good reasons not to subsidize birth control.

        • This, this, this, this. If you don’t like the idea of abortions (and I can’t imagine who does whether they are pro choice or pro life), then please think hard about supporting ready, cheap access to birth control.

        • Second!

      • DallasSkirt Envy :

        “If that’s not an option, try your student health center (if your campus has one, the local health department, or Planned Parenthood. During my 1L year when I didn’t have insurance that covered prevantative care, I got my BC prescription at Planned Parenthood for ~$20 a month. ”

        Planned Parenthood, Health Departments, and university campuses fund their birth control programs through Federal funding.

        • Is it federal funding, or it that the employer has to pay for the cost of health insurance premiums, some of which can be used to pay for contraceptives?

          My understanding is that under the new health insurance plan, contraceptives must be offered at “no cost” to insureds. However, the term “no cost” is misleading because the insurance company pays for the oral contraceptive and the insured (or insureds’ employer) pays for the insurance premiums. The debate is that religious employers do not want to cover the cost of the health insurance premiums that go towards oral contraceptives. Am I incorrect that this is the issue?

          What I was thinking about today is how far this could go. I consider the portion of my health insurance premiums that my employer covers part of my salary. My employer doesn’t have the ability to dictate what I spend my paycheck on. But, in this scenerio, an employer wants to dictate how the portion of health insurance premiums that they pay are spent. They want to be able to say: you can have this medical care, but not this. Now, I suppose when the employer picks any health insurance plan, they are, to some degree picking what medical care you can and cannot have (if an employer picks a plan that does not cover a certain kind of surgury, then they have essentially made that decision for you). Its a lot to consider.

          • DallasSkirt Envy :

            I was trying to say she was contradicting herself. If the premise is the Feds shouldn’t be subsidizing birth control, providing direction to PP, Student Centers, etc, defeats the premise.

          • I understood your response, but her original question: “Why should taxpayers bear the burden of providing her contraception of choice? Why is this a “right” that the gov’t should have to provide?” misstates the debate. The debate is why should a Catholic employer be forced to subsidize oral contraceptives. Not why should the government (taxpayers) subsidize?

      • I think the debate about whether the government should pay for it/it should be free is an entirely separate issue that merits rational discussion. My issue is that Limbaugh’s comments do not represent rational discussion, but rather name-calling and being intentionally inflammatory. I don’t think anyone would flame you for wanting to have a civil discussion about whether it’s the responsibility of the government or employers to pay for BC, but the outrage is more that the concept of any woman having s*x makes her a sl*t and a pr*stit*te. I generally tend to say that it’s not someone else’s responsibility to pay for any choice I make, but I also don’t think that someone should be so hateful toward my choices either. There’s plenty of people (like you, in my personal opinion) making reasonable arguments about the cost and responsibility of BC that throwing slurs is just inciting anger.

      • Well, first, this is not necessarily about “the taxpayers” but mainly about health insurance provided by private employers or other private entities such as colleges, which is how most Americans get their coverage. For all of the reasons mentioned by the other posters, BC is an essential part of health care for many women. (And, in addition to the physical and mental health implications of unplanned pregnancies, some women need hormonal BC for medical reasons unrelated to preventing pregnancy; those who wish to eliminate BC coverage make no exception for such cases.)

        The suggestion that everyone should just go buy a box of condoms is not very realistic and, frankly, a bit naive. For one thing, it assumes that a woman’s partner is willing to use condoms and to take responsbility for contraception, which is by no means a given for a lot of women out there. Also, although I am no expert, it’s my understanding that condoms have some of the lowest rates of effectiveness for preventing pregnancy. For some women, the best method of BC is one of the more expensive, such as IUDs or some of the patches or shots. There was a letter in the NYT within the last week from an ob-gyn who serves a low-income population that discussed this in more detail. His point was that his patients need to afford the BC method that is best for them.

        It is great that you could buy better health coverage when you were in school, even if it was expensive. But many women — students and workers –simply can’t afford that. Imagine a housekeeper employed in a Catholic hospital in a small city making $10 or $12 an hour. She probably is lucky if she can afford to pay her share of the premiums for the group plan. Believe me, there are plenty of working people who don’t have insurance because they can’t afford to pay even the employee share. Such a woman certainly could not pay the full cost of outside, individual coverage. And if she doesn’t live in a large metropolitan area, she’s unlikely to have access to Planned Parenthood or another similar program to obtain affordable BC outside of insurance. (And, of course, Rush Limbaugh and others who have been vocal about this issue are even more vociferous in their cries against PP and would shut it down if they could.)

        All of us naturally look at this and any other issue through the prism of our own experience and circumstances, but I think this question calls for some empathy and understanding for women who don’t have the many resources with which most of us on this particular site are blessed — financial resources, education, the services and amenities of cities, partners who are educated and supportive. For women who lack some of these things, the availability of affordable BC through health insurance is essential in their lives.

        • Ugh. I really didn’t want to be all political, but I feel like I have to respond to some of this. This is obviously just my opinion, and I’m not intending to be argumentative (even though I know that arguing is exactly what I’m doing…), I just want to make a case for the other side.

          1) If a woman’s partner won’t use c*ndoms, then she shouldn’t sleep with him. It’s not just for contraception. If it’s a one night stand, then she NEEDS to protect herself. If it’s a relationship, then he’s selfish, and she should realize that and get out. I don’t think an unwillingness to use c*ndoms is a good reason to force tax payers to foot the bill or religious institutions to go against their beliefs.

          2) As to the cleaning lady in a Catholic hospital, that’s an unfortunate scenario, but again, a few isolated examples should not trump religious freedom. I realize the economy is terrible and it is hard to find employment, but nothing is holding her to a Catholic institution.

          Now, having said all that, I do think your point about BC being necessary for reasons other than contraception is a good argument, and one I hadn’t previously considered. It’s something new for me to think about. Ultimately, I still don’t think Catholic hospitals and universities should be forced to provide BC, but I don’t know what the answer is in that circumstance.

          • Thank you! I agree. The argument keeps moving towards “conservatives want to stop people from having s*x” but in my view, it’s about religious freedom. Period. I personally use BC, as have and do most of my friends and family, so I don’t agree with the Catholic institutions’ decision, but I think they should be able to make that decision.

          • But the problem is that conservatives DO want to stop women from having sex — or at least punish them with the consequences. They just couch it in the language of religious freedom when it benefits them, because they know they lose people when they say what they really think (note — I’m not saying ALL conservatives think that way — but I think many do…they think the real problem with BC is that it allows sl*ts to have sex. Just like we shouldn’t give little girls the HPV vaccine because they might have sex. Or whatever).

          • Who are you to say that that’s what conservatives want? Ugh. I say, “people are misconstruing the argument,” and you say, “no, we’re not misconstruing, that’s really what people like you think.” I am telling you, that’s not what I think. I care about religious liberties. I certainly understand how we can disagree, but I am so tired of people not listening to words and saying, “I know what you *really* mean” when listening to conservatives on this issue.

          • anon for this :

            Re #1: A major problem with this is the reality of domestic violence and how abusers use s*x and pregnancy to control women, not to mention the fact that the most dangerous time in an abusive relationship is when the woman tries to leave. In a nonabusive relationship, your thining applies, but in an abusive one, it is not so simple.

          • No b23, I’m not saying that people like YOU believe that — I don’t know you. I can’t judge what YOU believe.

            But I can judge what people like Rick Santorum really think when he says things like: : “One of the things I will talk about, that no president has talked about before, is I think the dangers of contraception in this country.” And also, “Many of the Christian faith have said, well, that’s okay, contraception is okay. It’s not okay. It’s a license to do things in a sexual realm that is counter to how things are supposed to be.”

            And I know what the Catholic Church really thinks about birth control because I’ve sat in the pew and been told the birth control breeds lasciviousness. And that sex before marriage is a sign of the moral degradation of our country. And all that jazz.

            So as much as they play up this particular part of this particular bill as being about “religious liberty” — I know that the Catholic Church’s end goal if they could have everything would for BC to be illegal again. And that’s what Rick Santorum would have if he got his way and what a lot of Republican’s in Congress would get if they got their way. So yes I’m worried and yes I’m vigilant.

            (And I say all this as a catholic who attends church — I just think they’re dead wrong on this issue and they went the wrong way completely when they issued Humanae Vitae.)

          • I agree: that’s what the Catholic Church thinks. They want BC to be illegal. No argument there. That’s the *point* of religious liberty. They have their views, and I respect them. I respect their ability to live out those views, because this is America. The problem is that you’re saying conservatives want to make it illegal to stop people from having s*x, and I’m saying, as a conservative, that that’s not true. That’s why *Catholics* don’t want to offer it; not why conservatives agree.

            * By the way, I’m pretty sure that a very large percentage of the Catholic Church votes with the Democratic Party.

          • Okay. I really hate internet arguments for this reason, because they are imprecise. I don’t think they want to make them illegal. I think there is a substantial, and scarily powerful socially conservative branch of the republican party that would like, if they had their way, to make all non-procreative sex very dangerous and/or burdensome for women and men (but mostly women because we share the greatest burden).

            Also — I know many Catholics vote democratic, but the political arm of the Catholic church is largely conservative. And I’m done…I’m going to go comment on pantyhose or something. :-P

          • EmpLawyer :

            If the Catholic Church wants religious freedom, they should get out of the business of employing people. I have no problem with them denying birth control to priests, monks, and nuns.

          • I find the Catholic bishops religious freedom argument against requiring insurance companies to cover birth control to be patronizing. Yes, the Catholic Church is allowed (I guess) to make its (wrong) determination about their stance on birth control. But objecting to providing insurance coverage to provided subsidized birth control makes me feel like they don’t trust their faithful to follow the edicts of the Church and so they must MAKE their employees follow them. Nevermind that the Venn diagram for Catholics and their employees don’t necessarily match. Just because you provide coverage for birth control doesn’t mean you are making those covered take it. Ugh.

            The whole idea that a bunch of celibate men telling me that I shouldn’t have access to medication (that my doctor might deem medically necessary – uses unrelated to pregnancy prevention) because it impairs THEIR religious freedom makes me bristle. And I realized that the argument is a little more complicated than that – but I have a hard time getting past the bristling.

          • I have to point out the irony that the Catholic church is opposed to fertility treatments like IVF.

          • Re #1: Even if a woman is not in an obviously abusive relationship, she might depend on a man for protection or resources. In addition, there may be so many imprisoned or unemployed men in her dating pool that those who aren’t can easily set the terms of relationships because of the power imbalance caused by the numbers discrepancy.

        • anon for this :

          I think this issue also gets blown out of proportion as “h*rn* college kids wanting to be irresponsible”, but that’s not that case. I’m a happily married woman, but I don’t desire to be pregnant right now. I’m in a monogamous relationship, and quite frankly, c*ndoms are a pain and decrease my enjoyment with my husband, within my marriage! (so, to Rush, it’s not just sl*ts that want to enjoy s*x!) We are also a high income couple, so we can afford BC without insurance if necessary, so I understand my view is biased. I think a lot of people are frustrated that many women can afford cigarettes, alcohol, cell phones, manicures, etc. etc., but then complain about the cost of BC. On the other side of that, sometimes BC is prescribed to treat illness, not prevent pregnancy, so to deny all BC claims for any reason means that some women (single/celibate/within marriage so it’s not an issue of trying to “be irresponsible” for free) can’t get the necessary medication. It’s such a complex issue, so painting it with such a broad brush, particularly based on one woman’s testimony, is a fruitless way to engage in discussion.

      • Agree. If you are capable of going to law school you are capable of figuring out how to get contraception.

        • Seriously. Normally I don’t get into this. But while I was in law school I had serious medical problems that made all oral contraception (basically all hormonal contraception) unusable. It meant basically the only safe BC for me, other than just relying on condoms which were not great for other reasons, was an IUD, which is horrendously expensive. In addition — those same very serious medical conditions would have made pregnancy very, very dangerous and painful for me.

          Now, I know that the catholic church’s answer for all this is for me to just keep my legs crossed and be happy for my lot in life. But your condescension that “being in law school” somehow makes all financial and health problems easy to fix (because presumably YOU haven’t had them) is obnoxious.

          • karenpadi :

            This. Thank you Anony. I’m avoiding posting in this discussion because it makes. me. so. angry.

            Anon, you may have never had an issue with getting birth control. I’m happy that you are so fortunate. Many people (including law students) don’t have the same luxury.

        • Anon for this :

          Of course, because stupid or poor women don’t “deserve” contraceptives. *sigh*

          I know that this site is Corporette… that most women here make bank, and have excellent employers and access to wonderful health care, but I never thought that access to BC is something that other women would find controversial.

          It’s not about religious freedom.
          It’s about those in power exerting control over those who aren’t, namely women. Controlling a woman’s sexuality, along with her right to choose when and how to become pregnant is a very efficient way of controlling her future.
          It’s about demeaning women who speak out (not matter how well or poorly they speak) by calling them sl*ts, and adding to our country’s r*pe culture by implying that s*x is something that women OWE men.
          Hello misogyny, meet the GOP.

          It makes me SO ANGRY that Rush Limbaugh gets his disgusting quote on almost every news outlet, but not a single woman spoke at the House hearing earlier this month.

      • Today, We Are All Sandra Fluke :

        I object to the fact that the Republicans want every employer, regardless of size or religious affiliation (or lack thereof), to be able to refuse to provide insurance for any thing or procedure that it finds morally unconscionable. In such a world, when looking for a job, in addition to asking for and considering information from potential employers about title, job duties, salary and promotion opportunities, every job seeker will have to ask: do you offer insurance that covers cervical cancer screening? Birth control? vaccinations? HIV screening?

        But no man would have to ask whether it covers Viagra. Which is how I know it is about controlling women, not about religion or morals.

        In response to the poster who said it is cheaper to pay for birth control than raising a kid in foster care, the Guttmacher Institute has demonstrated that for every dollar spent on contraception, we save the taxpayers $3.74 in government spending on prenatal care, childbirth, and healthcare during the infant’s first year. That doesn’t even address housing, clothing, educating or providing healthcare until the kid is 18 (or more).

        • I object to the fact that the Democrats misconstrue the Republicans’ arguments.

          I have never heard any Republican say that, and I listen to a lot of Fox News and talk radio. You’ve just successfully knocked down a straw man.

          • I meant the part where any employer ever can refuse to provide insurance. I think the part about the cost is a reasonable argument.

          • Today, We Are All Sandra Fluke :

            Here is the relevant text from the Blunt Amendment that gives any employer (not just a religious affiliated one) the right to refuse coverage for anything it deems morally (not just religiously) unconscionable:

            (1) IN GENERAL.–Section 1302(b) of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (Public Law 111-148; 42 U.S.C. 18022(b)) is amended by adding at the end the following new paragraph:


            “(A) FOR HEALTH PLANS.–A health plan shall not be considered to have failed to provide the essential health benefits package described in subsection (a) (or preventive health services described in section 2713 of the Public Health Service Act), to fail to be a qualified health plan, or to fail to fulfill any other requirement under this title on the basis that it declines to provide coverage of specific items or services because–

            “(i) providing coverage (or, in the case of a sponsor of a group health plan, paying for coverage) of such specific items or services is contrary to the religious beliefs or moral convictions of the sponsor, issuer, or other entity offering the plan; or

            “(ii) such coverage (in the case of individual coverage) is contrary to the religious beliefs or moral convictions of the purchaser or beneficiary of the coverage.

        • Absolutely agree with this comment. I am sick and tired of how it is totally acceptable to control women’s life and send her back to the kitchen barefoot and pregnant. And I don’t want to hear “oh just don’t have s*x, keep your legs closed or put an asprin between your knees”. I wanna get laid just like a man and still reach out for all my dreams (reach the c-level jobs, make multi-million $ etc etc) and don’t give a dam* to what some one else’s religion says. Religious freedom is absolute crap here, no one ever questions viagara coverage in insurance, it is all about keeping woman as second class citizen. Where is the gloria steinem of our generation? Can’t believe we are so content and passive.

          • I hate how this is all put on women and all the sex we must be having. What about the men we are having it with? Since we don’t need contraception if we are only having sex with women…

          • m–Thank you. I had a boyfriend who was a lawyer and, trust me, I was not the first girlfriend of his who was on the pill. He was shocked! Shocked! when he went to the drug store to pick up my prescription with me and discovered I had a $25 copay on my generic meds. Yep. He “thought” all this time that the pill was free.

        • I am an employment lawyer, one issue I’ve been dealing with way too much is rising health care costs both for the entities I represent and their employees who have to pay the employee portion. The insurance company who insures the vast majority of my clients recently had an information session. The representative informed us that the plan does not cover birth control but that viagra and similar is the number one drug cost in the plan and that something like 70% of the men in the plan have prescriptions and fill them regularly. Free. I’m sorry but that’s just wrong.

          • So, the insurance company will pay for men to have sex, but don’t extend the same courtesy to women. That’s what I’m reading from this policy. Argh.

          • Bingo, thanks for sharing this from your actual experience with insurance co. So all the conservatives are ok with insurance subsidizing men to get it up (with viagra) for free but somehow go ape-sh*t like Rush if women get free BC? Goes to show so called “religious liberty” is total crap, it is all about controlling women’s choices in life, relegating them to the status of persistent “baby incubator”.

            Free viagra = totally ok, sacred, no questions raised
            Free BC=Rush response/blunt amendment/state’s right to ban contraceptive acceptable for santorum?

          • witness protection program :

            Welcome to 2012, where men’s orgasms are still more important than women’s reproductive autonomy.

            And let’s just keep ignoring the fact that most hetero men outsource contraceptive responsibilities to their female partners.


          • I am strongly liberal but the one straight faced argument I can make, if I was forced to play devil’s advocate, is that Viagra and other ED medications fix what should occur naturally while BC stops what should occur naturally.

      • Anon for this :

        Your privilege is showing.
        While I can see where you’re coming from, some people don’t have the option of opting out of school insurance plans.
        I can’t afford my own health insurance, except the one that my graduate school offers. I WISH they would cover my BC pills. I pay $55 a month for a regular unpainful period and a safer sex life.
        (and when I was dating my ex-GIRLFRIEND, I still took BC for the regular period-effect, so you can take your box of condoms and shove it.)

        • witness protection program :

          Amen. The number of people who would deprive women access to contraception without realizing the multitude of reasons women use hormonal birth control is appalling.

      • Not taxpayers. Private employers. Why should private employers be required by the government to pay for any one medication?

        People who get taxpayer funded insurance such as Medicaid already have contraceptive coverage. This is about the government commanding the private sector to pay for it.

        • Well then, why should private employers be required to follow any federal employment laws? I am seriously trying to figure out why federal rules about health insurance are different from federal laws about, say, nondiscriminatory hiring, minimum wage, hours worked, etc. If providing birth control is part of the ACA law (I am not a lawyer and don’t know all the specifics of this law), then why is it so reprehensible that employers should have to follow it?

          And if the Catholic church runs entities that take federal money, which universities do by way of student laws and hospitals do by way of Medicare/Medicaid payments, why should they be exempt from following federal laws? My grantees who receive federal money can’t even pop a bottle of champagne in their lab to celebrate getting a grant because consumption of alcohol is forbidden on properties that receive federal funds.

      • I take the pill because I get migraines 3 days before my flow starts without it. I am virgin, and HATE that my medication is up for a discussion. I thought conservatives were against the government getting in between a patient and a doctor! Should people with endometriosis, PCOS, PID, debilitating cramps, cysts and tons of other issues have to suffer? Any insurer, including the government and churches would happily pay for medicine to cover up my pain, but they won’t allow me to prevent it?!

        You should check out the birth control expense calculator, it’s eyeopening. I’ll post the link in another comment to avoid moderation.

        • http://motherjones.com/politics/2012/02/calculator-birth-control-expensive-really-cost?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=tweet&utm_campaign=calculator&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=post&utm_campaign=costs –Calculator: How Expensive Is Birth Control?
          I will be paying $57,566 over the course of my childbearing years for the pill. And I may have to stay on it longer since it’s for migraines not contraception for me.

          • Today, We Are All Sandra Fluke :

            True dat. Did you see the article by Bob Cesca suggesting that people send their medical bills for contraceptives to the Santorum campaign because Santorum said it’s not that expensive? (Google: “Bob Cesca” Santorum “medical bills.”) I sent him redacted copies of all the bills for my last two IUDs. A few thousand dollars.

        • harriet chalmers :

          The Catholic or any other church should have the right to decide certain benefits based on moral grounds IF and only IF they are truly private and not receiving special federal benefits, like tax exemptions. Be private – truly self sufficient – or suck up rules. Don’t expect to have your cake and eat it too.

          • This. And, polling Catholics (the people practicing the religion), the majority are not against hormonal contraception, and would like it covered by their insurance. How does one reconcile what people who identify as Catholics want versus what their leadership want?

          • “How does one reconcile what people who identify as Catholics want versus what their leadership want?”

            Catholic most of my life, birth control most of my sexually mature life – the reconciliation is that it’s not about birth control, it’s about force and freedom and mandates. Like most Catholics, I do want birth control, but I don’t want the church to be *forced* to pay for it (round about as their payments may be) any more than I would want PETA to be forced to buy it’s employees hamburgers. Freedom and choices.

          • But, PETA is forced to buy its employees whatever they want to buy because they pay them a salary. They cannot dictate what an employee can have for lunch. If I, as a PETA employee, use my salary to buy a hamburger, PETA has “paid” for it. They are requried, by law, to pay me a wage.

        • witness protection program :

          Not to mention all the other medications known to cause birth defects–from Accutane to anti-seizure meds–that would be unavailable to women if their access to birth control were restricted.

      • I have some degree of sympathy with JessC’s comment, altho I am an ardent proponent of birth control, mainly because population is spinning out of control and people are starving in many parts of the world. The sufficiency of the food supply is in doubt.

        When I was young and could not afford birth conrol, I used Planned Parenthood. Later I had very generous health insurance which paid for this, although the cost of my birth control (first diaphragm then IUD) was so very little. I paid for my own Ortho jelly.

        Today in a sense contraception costs even less. So many alternatives are out there.

        On some level this is a social issue, not a women’s health issue. It is a more a children’s health issue in several different ways. There is sort of a slippery slope involved here.

      • The whole point is that yes, while anyone can opt-out of democracy (See John Locke), everyone has a right to state their views and take action on their views (vote) (See Thomas Jefferson for much stronger examples) without being forced to opt-out. So saying, “She can opt-out so we shouldn’t have to listen to her views” defeats the entire point of democracy in the first place.

        Also, in some cities, Planned Parenthood is no longer able to provide contraceptive services (due to people voting Republican). So this woman does not have the same options that you had – those options have been taken away from her by people like Limbaugh.

        Also, if you truly believe in a free-market (like Republican’s say that they do), then this woman has every right to buy with her own money the insurance services she wants! As an economist, I say “Let the market clear!” By passing this restrictive bill, Republicans are saying – “We don’t believe in the free market – we believe in regulating people’s choices so that they can’t vote with their pocketbook.”

        • Whoa, now, the Republicans aren’t the ones who brought up this issue. It’s the Dems who are trying to mandate it, not the Republicans.

        • This is my problem with uninformed people are. Churches have always had this right. Dems passed a bill taking it away. The religious arent trying to get a new rright, they are trying to keep one they have always had

      • Today, We Are All Sandra Fluke :

        I read recently that Rick Santorum believes that liberals are morally bankrupt because they believe they can buy themselves out of the consequences of their choices about sex. (Don’t want to get pregnant? Use BC. Oops, got pregnant and don’t want a child? Abortion. Don’t want to catch a disease but still want to have sex? Condoms.) While it is true that, to a certain extent (keeping in mind limitations like TCFKAG’s issue below and the like), money can protect you from a lot of consequences, that doesn’t make someone morally bankrupt for doing so.

        Also, I wonder, if the only good sex is procreative sex within a marriage, does that mean that once I get married, every time I have sex I am risking losing a year of my life to pregnancy and maternity leave and risking adding another dependent to my family? What if I want a career and so want to time my pregnancies or limit my number of dependents? The need for family planning doesn’t vanish just because I am married. Unless you think that I shouldn’t have any purpose in life except to reproduce. And then your bias and desire to control me starts to show.

      • Anonymous :

        Got it! So if I don’t go to college, but I do have a job and that job pays for my health insurance, my employer has the right to refuse to pay for my birth control even if I need it for a medical issues that does not involve preventing birth it is okay for them to refuse that?

        Because that’s what this is about. Not “how do you get birth control pills,” (which can be anywhere from easy to nearly impossible in this country), but whether or not companies can restrict your health care choices via health insurance. This is an issues, not about sex, not about birth control (even though it has somehow become one?!), but about workplace rights.

        If I work for a Muslim owned company and need treatment for an alcohol addiction, alcohol related physical abuse or trauma from being raised by an alcoholic parent can they refuse to allow the insurance to cover that because they don’t believe in consuming alcohol?

        Which is more important, the rights of a company or the rights of a worker?

        If I’m Hindu or Jewish or Mormon and work for a company run by Catholics can they deny me birth control because that is their belief system? Which is more important, the rights of the worker or of the company?

        If I worked for a company run by Pentecostals and was injured falling down on a dance floor, could they refuse to pay my health insurance coverage because they don’t believe in dancing? Which is more important, the rights of the worker or of the company?

        Birth control is all sexy sex about sex. But the underlying (and actually important part of the question) is not about sex. It’s about whether the government stands up against employers on behalf of employees.

        But sex and religion make for headlines and screaming Rush Limbaugh, whereas the dancing and alcohol examples I used above would make people laugh. Of course a company has to pay for your health insurance if you’re in a car accident: even if it’s your fault because you were drinking! That’s the way insurance works, no matter what your employer believes about alcohol.

        Or we could just argue about sex. And taxpayers, who I don’t think are actually involved in this one at all.

    • Limbaugh’s comments were way out of line, from what I heard on GMA, but did you listen to Fluke’s testimony? She seriously sounded like an idiot, with a strong sense of entitlement. If she’s representative of Georgetown law students, I fear for the future of that school.

      • DallasSkirt Envy :

        Agreed on Limbaugh’s comments being out of line, and also agreed- she sounded entitled and hard to relate to. If they had a women of low income who was married with three children, she would have been easier to relate to for the general populous and get to the same point.

      • I agree. I graduated from GULC several years ago, and the students there having been whining for years about the school’s health care insurance plan not covering birth control. When I was there, they even got the student council to approve a protest groups’s formation as a “student activities group” and got funding from the school for their protests. Professors there supported and encouraged this along with the protests of the JAG corps recruiting because of DADT. I wondered why, if they wanted a plan that covered birth control, they didn’t just BUY A DIFFERENT HEALTH INSURANCE PLAN.

        • I just checked out of curiosity and saw that tuition for three years at GULC will now set you back over $140k.

        • Have you ever tried to buy individual insurance if you say, have a pre-existing condition? Leaving aside everything else, if you are a GULC student and have a pre-existing condition and aren’t married, you probably have NO other option other than the school’s group plan.

          And just because the school costs so much doesn’t mean you have that kind of money.

          • Well you are either paying for it yourself or your using loan money. Sure you want to use as little loan money as possible, but that goes for all the choices you make with your money. You can afford out of pocket insurance if you go to gtown. (I did, with loan money) It just means I spent a lot less on food/alcohol. I want bc to be subsidized because its better for me, but what medications do we have an inherent right to? All medications? The money has to come from some where. I don’t think this argument is as black and white as the fluke side says it is.

            Religious groups always had the option of not providing bc. Obama changed that two weeks ago. The religious groups aren’t trying to take something away, they are trying to get back the right they always had before.

          • Prior to Health Care Reform, aka Obamacare, I could not purchase my own private health insurance plan even if I had 5 million dollars in the bank. I have Crohn’s disease and the only insurance company in my state (yes, my prior state had a total of 1, anti-trust be d@mned) determined that I was uninsurable due to my pre-existing condition. They would not insure me for any amount of my money. Now, that is illegal but w/o the Affordable Care Act, I could not have paid for another plan that would cover my birth control (that I am on for medical reasons).

          • Just to clarify, I could get group plan (my employer’s) insurance so long as I never had a gap in coverage, I just could not purchase an individual plan. I couldn’t go to law school until after I was married so that I could be insured on my husband’s plan. The high deductible student plan would not have covered my Crohn’s medications. I had to take a job out of state because my former employer’s cafeteria plan was not a group plan and would not insure me should my husband leave me, die, or lose his job. When I got my out of state job, I almost had to live apart from my husband until my new plan kicked in so that he could stay employed in old state, so I could stay on his health plan and not have a gap in coverage. Luckily, he found a job with the gov that allowed me instant coverage and was able to move with me. He had to turn down his preferred job because I couldn’t be insured on their non group plan.

          • Also, I got into Georgetown twice, for undergrad and law school. Yes, I knew it was Catholic. No, I had no idea that meant no birth control. The school marketed itself to me as an excellent college, not as a center of catholic faith, and I think that’s a problem. More like Boston university than BYU. And apparently that’s not true

          • For what it’s worth, I am a faculty member at one of the other Jesuit universities (there are 28 of them) and our health insurance covers birth control. But, from what I understand, they do not provide any kind of birth control through student health services.

          • health care anon :

            Another sad fact is that prior to the new health care reform, patients who tested HIV+ could be kicked off their health insurance plan, because you could never prove when you contracted the disease, per se. These medications can cost thousands of dollars a month, so the only option for many sick patients would be to enroll in clinical trials where even the control group would get the current approved therapy, as there can be no true control group when a disease that is certain to cause death is involved.

            The thing that depresses me is that the implications for repealing this go far beyond birth control.

    • Has anyone else noticed the BC is the only topic that can — without fail — get us all riled up. That and whether Dobby deserved to die in Harry Potter. We’re an odd bunch.

      • Those two plus nude pantyhose.

        Odd bunch indeed.

      • Don’t forget peeptoe shoes.

      • The Missus J :

        Add the SAHM vs. Working Mom debate! There were so many hundreds of personal attacks on that thread that I stopped reading Corporette for over a year. I was beyond pleased to see that the community had changed for the better since that horrible debacle.

      • Alanna of Trebond :

        Incidentally, I don’t think there were any personal attacks in this discussion.

        • I know. I’m kind of proud of us. We are all clearly passionate on the topic and care deeply, but we all managed to get through it without calling each other sl*tty lustful, flouncy fornicators. Take that Limbaugh!

      • Anonymous :

        I remember a few woman saying the it was gross to breastfeed in public. If I were Kat, I would have deleted any woman who was against breastfeeding as being clearly too stupid and uneducated to be on Corporette! :)

        • Oh good! there is the personal attack! and we went all thread without one. If you believe in one sided arguments, Kat should delete you for being so stupid and horrible. smiley face!

  3. I have been waiting for open thread all week! I would absolutely love some advice on changing jobs.

    I am a fifth year associate currently practicing in a small law firm in a specialized area (by small, I mean the only two practicing attorneys are myself and my boss). For a multitude of reasons, I personally believe that working at such a small firm has stunted my professional growth. I was fortunate enough to recently receive (and accept!) an offer to move to a larger firm (80-90 attorneys). I am thrilled beyond belief, but I am also exceptionally nervous to deliver the news to my boss, which I am waiting to do until I have an official start date.

    Has anyone done anything similar during their career? I would love some advice on how to make the break with my current boss as professional as possible. Knowing the kind of person he is, he is going to take it very hard–in fact, I think he will be straight up angry with me (he IS losing one half of his office). I would also love to hear any advice on the big changes I should be expecting, moving from a small office to a much larger one.

    Thank you so much!

    • Mrs. Piggle Wiggle :

      While your boss may be upset (and angry with you), he has no real reason to be. A female judge that I know once told me that the reason women are less successful than men is because women refuse to take promotions or refuse to take opportunities, which would better themselves, because they have a deep ingrained sense of loyalty. Men, on the other hand, have less of that, and for that reason, will jump at a chance to go to another job, which offers them more in opportunities (and salary). This is just her opinion, but I do think there is something to it. We as women constantly feel guilty for so many different things – families, children, not having children, jobs. While your boss has done great things for you, you have an obligation to yourself — an obligation to further your career and your happiness. (*ok, I will get off my soapbox now*).

      I would tell him that while you’ve absolutely loved working with him these past few years, and you will always looks to him as your mentor and colleague, that a new opportunity has arisen that will allow you to further advance your career, and it was something you just couldn’t turn down.

      While I have never gone froma small firm to a big firm, in terms of transitioning, I think you will be surprised at how much more accomplished you are than the other associates. You have had to do so much on your own, that you will likely be more efficient with your time and resources.

      Good luck and congratulations!

      • karenpadi :

        This. As a word of warning, when I made a similar move as a third year, I actually started tearing up. My mentor followed me a year later, and she told me that she started tearing up too when she had the “I’m quitting” conversation with our boss.

    • As soon as you’ve left, send him a handwritten note that says something along the lines of, “I learned a tremendous amount while working with you. I deeply respect you both professionally and personally, and I’ll always appreciate the opportunities you gave me. I hope our paths cross again in the future.”

    • As someone on the other end of this issue — a partner in a small firm where an associate left several years ago with 2 weeks notice — I would suggest that you give as much notice as you reasonably can. Handling the transition professionally means giving your boss time to begin to look for someone else, time for you to wrap up your cases or bring him up to speed, etc.

    • I am in a similarly sized firm and have been wondering how I would have this conversation when the day comes… thanks for posting.

    • In-House Europe :

      When I left my small firm to go in-house I made it clear that I completely respected my boss and appreciated the time that I worked there, but that I didn’t feel I could pass up the opportunity. Now years later we still keep in touch – I think he realized that I could be a good business contact for him down the road. Good luck!

  4. My kids are off to stay with grandparents this weekend and my CPA husband will be working, working, working (tax season). My plan for tomorrow afternoon is to watch some movies on Netflix and check out some new blogs (preferably while lounging in bed in my sweatpants). It’s been that kind of week.

    So my question to all of you is: What are some movies (available on Netflix streaming) that you think I should watch and what are some blogs you think I should check out during my afternoon of laziness?

    • If you like period drama, North and South! That’s the only one I can think of off the top of my head.

    • Merabella :

      Downton Abbey! The first season is on Netflix and amazing if you haven’t seen it. Sliding Doors was mentioned the other day as well, and is one of my favorites. It was on Netflix streaming the last time I checked.

      • Oh, I didn’t see the mention of Sliding Doors the other day. I love that movie! So underrated; I’m pretty sure I’ve never met anyone in real life who has actually seen it. So glad to see it getting props!

        • Favorite movie ever. Once when I was a summer at Big Law we played “name your top three movies” at a happy hour and it was in my and another girls top three. I was so happy. :-)

        • Barrister in the Bayou :

          I thought sliding doors was an awesome movie… might just watch it tonight if it is on instant.

        • Lets be honest, James is my dream man. I just want a man who can quote Monty Python to me. Is that so much to ask (and I love my husband very much, but his monty python quoting and scottish accent is sorely lacking).

          • Oh, you and me both, TCFKAG.

            “If we took the bones out, it wouldn’t be crunchy, would it?”

            Hee hee.

          • No one expects the Spanish Inquisition! Our chief weapon is surprise, fear and surprise; two chief weapons, fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency! Er, among our chief weapons are: fear, surprise, ruthless efficiency, and near fanatical devotion to the Pope! Um, I’ll come in again…

            And of course…don’t forget the fluffy pillows.

          • My dh is James & he quotes Monty Python to me on occasion, although not with an accent. I think I need to see this movie!

      • Oh, that’s weird. I was just talking with colleagues about Sliding Doors. I think it’s in the zeitgeist because there’s that new series (Awake?) with a similar idea.

        • if you’re watching shows, Parenthood is wonderful (and doesn’t require you to be a parent to enjoy it)!

          • We live in Berkeley and watch Parenthood mainly so we can be, all, “WHAT?? That is SO not Berkeley! As if!!!”

      • Former Litigator :

        “Sliding Doors” makes the economic concept of the “but for” world of damages come to life.

    • Set up a Pinterest and browse! It’s basically the pinnacle of the internet, with pins from all over. You can pin something political then a picture of a cat in a laundry basket, so it’s everything.

      Netflix Instant always seems to have better TV show selection than movies, so I must recommend Breaking Bad, Battlestar Galactica, Parks and Rec, Gossip Girl and Mad Men. And Downton if you haven’t gotten around to watching it yet!

    • Blog Obsessed :

      The latest blog that I’m following is Filing Jointly . . . Finally. I found it via The Bloggess. Both are humor blogs in which the writers recount what’s happening in their lives. I recommend both!



    • Downton Abbey. Revenge on ABC player.

      • also, I don’t have netflix, but for been out for a while movies, there’s Love Actually and Bridget Jones always makes me giggle.

      • Ooh yes, Revenge! It is so soapy and wonderful. I try to work in “I WILL DESTROY YOU.” into as many conversations as possible.

    • Blogs: if you don’t know it already, GoFugYourself dot com is truly fantastic fun.

      Netflix: not a movie, but if you haven’t seen it, I would recommend streaming the first season of Downton Abbey. I actually wish I hadn’t already watched it so I could watch it all over again. Also: Charade with Audrey Hepburn, Office Space, Heathers, Helvetica (the documentary), Edward Scissorhands and Harold & Maude.

      • Yay GOFugYourself. If you happen to like Hart of Dixie (as it is well documented I do) you have to read their “F*g the show” reviews. Its soooo funny.

      • icanhascheezburger dot com – kittens!
        And it has a bunch of other thematic sites that are lots of fun.

    • Thanks all! I have definitely seen both seasons of Downton Abbey, but may have to re-watch season one.

      • Oh, and I do have a Pinterest account … I spend WAY too much time on there so I’ve been trying to limit my time. I fear if I spent a whole afternoon pinning all the good work I’ve recently done would go right out the window. ;)

      • If you are open to TV series, I always point everyone I know towards Veronica Mars. It’s my all-time favorite TV show.

        • Netflix doesn’t stream it. Makes me so freaking sad. I own the DVDs but I’ve managed to lose random ones from the sets, so I can’t even use Netflix to bridge the gaps. Total devastation. And I love that the actor who played Logan Echolls has had a storyline on Ringer.

          • LOGAN is on Ringer? I love Logan? Sometimes I just watch the 4-5 episodes leading up to Weapons of Mass Destruction in the first season of V.Mars so I can see LoVe’s first kiss over and over again.

            Oh god. My freak flag is flying.

          • I own the dvds, too.

          • Oh man – I loved VM. I wished they had gotten the “Veronica goes the FBI” thing approved. I would have totally watched that show.

        • I watched it all a few years ago, and am rewatching it again. Love it so much. It’s the perfect series for a girl who adored Nancy Drew as much as I did.

      • I don’t think Veronica Mars is on streaming anymore. :-( But the first season of V. MArs is, I think without a doubt, the best season of television ever made. (I’ll fight anyone who argues with me…bring it on). When I made my husband watch it a couple years ago, he looked at me and said…so…this is where you get all your verbal mannerisms from. :-P

        • I dunno…. My vote is a tie between Freaks & Geeks and any season of Arrested Development.

          Which, btw GRA, if either of those shows are streaming you should watch. Streaming Arrested Development got me through the h*ll of studying for my TnE final.

          • I will fight you…I will fight you so hard. :-P

          • I love Freaks & Geeks. I was one of the 7 (10?) people who actually watched it when it originally aired on NBC. If you like that, try Life as we know it – another good (not as good) teen show that was sadly also cancelled too soon.

            I just watched the Unusuals on Netflix, if you like cop shows. Amazing cast and interesting story lines – I wish it had more time to develop. Include Jeremy Renner before he was the new It boy in Hollywood, Amber Tamblyn (who I adore – anyone see the Jezebel story on her rapping? – plus her dad was in Seven Brides for Seven Brothers, which is my favorite movie of all time and makes her cool by association), and a host of other people you’d probably recognize.

            I also sometimes like watching older shows that I was too young to watch when they actually aired – old episodes of Taxi with Christopher Lloyd and Danny DeVito, Cheers, etc.

            Also, if you haven’t watched BBC’s Sherlock, watch that. Love that.

        • I’m with you. I was seriously brokenhearted when it was cancelled.

        • I am right there with you on re-watching that kiss scene.

        • TCFKAG, I will fight the detractors side by side with you! Love Veronica Mars, didn’t manage to see the last season on Netflix before it got removed!

    • If you like period drama, papal intrigue, some lustful fornicatin’, and pretty dresses, I recommend the series Borgia. Not the Showtime series, though (it’s good, but not streaming), the European one.

      This one’s a bit rando, but a couple weekends ago I stumbled upon a really sweet Bollywood rom-com streaming on Netflix – Rab Ne Bana Di Jodi (roughly translates to A Match Made in Heaven). Cute story, great song and dance numbers – I ended up downloading the soundtrack. Note though, that the age difference between the main characters is not as extreme as the description makes it sound. It’s kind of there, but not a big deal.

      • I just remembered a bunch more!

        Documentaries: Bill Cunningham New York (about the NYT fashion photographer); Ballerina (about 5 Russian dancers at different stages of their career with the Kirov)

        Blogs: Awkward Family Photos; Cute Overload; Cake Wrecks; Autocorrect Fail; garfield minus garfield

        • If you’re at all into dancing and/or photography, I’d also check out the Dancers Among Us Blog. His work is amazing and his blog is actually really fun!

          Also second North South if you liked Downton Abby!

          • I didn’t know this was a blog! I read an article about this guy a couple months ago and it had some photos – totally awesome.

          • I have three of his prints and I love his work more than anything. You should also like him on Facebook! He’s awesome! Jordan Matter Photography is him.

            The blog is here: http://blog.jordanmatter.com/

            (There’s also a mailing list, btw, where he sends out occasional alerts. Like he’s writing a book!)

        • Sconnie, Cake Wrecks has totally made my afternoon.

          I’ve procrastinated and laughed to my heart’s content today!

      • OMG Sconnie, seconded re the Borgias. I totally can’t wait for the next season. I more or less watched it in real time when it was originally on TV but now I want to stream it one episode after another. Amazing.

        • I know, right?! I studied art history in college, specializing in Italian Renaissance. This stuff is like crack to me.

          Yowsers I am all over this thread! How obvious is it that a) the hubs travels a lot for work and 2) I do not have kids. Yep, I pretty much work, exercise, and d*ck around on my laptop.

    • If you haven’t seen Sarah’s Key … it was a good movie. I heard the book was better but I didn’t read it.

      I also second the pinterest thing.. but you better sign up today or you won’t get your login in time. I could live on Pinterest for hours. I also enjoy the WallStreet Journal’s Blog.. The Juggle.

      • Kristin Scott Thomas can do no wrong in my book. She was awesome in “Sarah’s Key” (as well as “I’ve Loved You So Long”).

    • Prodigal Sons is one of my favorite documentaries

    • Are you a dog person? I have been watching Dogtown (Nat Geo show) on Netflix streaming. I’m also starting United States of Tara. (Sorry, I know these aren’t movies!)

    • If I had a day at home to just watch movies, I’d probably watch as many of the following as possible:

      Pride and Prejudice 6-parter with Colin Firth
      Devil Wears Prada
      Intolerable Cruelty (George Clooney, Catherine ZJ, Cohen bros)
      and whatever random chick flick was on pay per view

      Those are my favorites to watch over and over if it’s just me & my husband isn’t around to make fun of me. (Though he does like Intolerable Cruelty, he knows I’m just watching it for the George Clooney as Cary Grant element.)

      • I had to buy the Colin First Pride and Prejudice because it wasn’t on Netflix Streaming. But it was on the sale rack at Target one day — it was glorious. Just for the part when he comes out of the lake all wet and shirtless. Oh yeah.

    • Downton Abbey season 1 is on streaming

      • Netflix:
        TV shows: I have to second Breaking Bad and add Shameless (UK series) and Weeds. Documentaries: exit through the gift shop and that Joan Rivers documentary.
        Movies: the girl with the dragon tattoo series.

    • I’m watching Homeland right now. I’m getting Showtime free for 3 months so I’m focusing on it for now. I’m pretty sure it’s not available on Netflix until next season, though.

      But because Claire Danes is in it, I’ve been thinking about My So-Called Life. Maybe you could watch that on Netflix. And, if you’re gonna be watching 80’s shows, you could also download 21 Jump Street. I still think that was Johnny Depp’s best work.

    • Have you watched Luther? Not sure if its streaming, but it’s a BBC series with Idris Elba (Stringer Bell from the Wire, so. HOT). and it’s really good. Also, The Wire? Love love love it (as much as I love Downton Abbey; evidently my tastes are broad.)

  5. Internal interview :

    Any advice on what to wear to an interview for an internal position? Interview is with a director on my current team, and on jeans day. A suit would stick out like a sore thumb.

    • I don’t know what industry you’re in, but I’m a lawyer and I would actually wear a suit. I know that at my company, which is normally pretty casual, several internal candidates have lost points because they didn’t wear a suit to interview. At the very least, I’d wear a jacket.

      • Internal interview :

        Not law. I’m in Finance at a Fortune 500. It’s a new position in my current department so I’ll be interviewing with my current boss and one of his peers.

        • I’d think the same rules would apply for finance as in law – at least wear a jacket.

    • Wear a suit to the interview and take the jacket off during the rest of your day. If you wear a casual enough top underneath, no one will think much about your pants/skirt and top combo when you take off your jacket.

  6. I’m wearing this dress in chocolate brown to a wedding in late March at a Florida winery. I need flats or wedges since the ceremony will be outside on grass. I cannot find any shoes that are formal enough. Corporettes with shopping acumen, please help!


  7. PharmaGirl :

    How does everyone keep up with corporette comments? I often forget to come back and check responses but don’t want to click the “followup comments” button. I opted in to receive followup comments on a weekend open thread once and boy did I regret it.

    Any tips from the ‘rette vets?

    • AnonInfinity :

      My strategy is to hit the refresh button every few minutes for a “mental health break.”

    • If I want to just follow-up on things I’ve commented for, I’ll do a control find for my user-name. Or else I just scroll past things that aren’t wildly interesting to me (sorry!).

      But yeah, its physically impossible to be interested in everything!

      • PharmaGirl :

        Now that I comment more often, the Ctrl+F is a good option but I still feel like I’m missing out on something!

      • This. If I was watching a thread but didn’t comment, I might control-F a keyword or something, instead of control-F-ing for “a.”, but mostly I just skim over everything.

    • Here’s what I don’t recommend:

      Don’t open an Etsy shop in addition to your Grown Up Fancy Lawyer Day Job. Or if you do, don’t find your Etsy shop so vastly more fun, motivating, and rewarding that you spend more time on it than your Grown Up Fancy Lawyer Day Job for which, let’s be honest, your enthusiasm has been slipping for the last few years anyway. Don’t spend most of the day working on your content and Etsy shop, promoting it on your blog, and tabbing between your favorite blogs to keep up with all the articles you want to read and comments by your internet friends.

      You will find yourself working every weekend because you’re not getting the work done during your Grown Up Fancy Lawyer Day Job hours.

      Hypothetically speaking.

    • The follow up comments are easy to follow via email with gmail because they come as one email and each comment is a separate part of the “conversation.” Just works well with gmail.

      • Gmail is great on my laptop, but it floods the email on my phone with hundreds of emails.

        • Interesting! Mine treats it the same way on both. Maybe because I have an Android phone?

        • Maybe dedicate a separate email account for Corporette threads that isn’t hooked up to your phone. Or you could filter Corporette emails so that they’re archived unread.

  8. “posting too quickly” error. Ugh, I haven’t tried posting in months, but that error is why I’ve stopped coming here. So irritating.

    • I have never gotten that error. And I post a lot? What browser do you use?

    • Happening to me tons today and I’ve barely posted. Karma. Also, I posted here about 10 minutes ago and my post never posted. I tried to copy and re-submit, but it said I’d duplicated a post. Eh. Sometimes things are just buggy. I’m using Firefox on a Mac.

      • I had never had a problem until yesterday. Wrote a post about carrying a purse that’s not a shoulder bag (response to someone) with a link to one I’m thinking about and poof! disappeared when I clicked Submit.

      • It happens when two people try to post a comment at the same time, I think.

        • I agree Bluejay. I usually only get the error when commenting on a “hot” active thread.

      • It’s also been happening to me, and I’m using Firefox on a PC… maybe it’s a Firefox issue?

        • Kept happening one day (Firefox) then settled down. Never happened before or since.

    • I use Firefox and have gotten it more recently (like since other people were having issues with the stack overflow (?) error a few weeks back). It doesn’t happen every time, but it has definitely happened more often.

      Like just now, in the 3 times I tried to post this comment.

    • Woods-comma-Elle :

      Just keep refreshing when you get that message and eventually the comment will go through without having to redo it.

  9. I am sick and tired of my limp, frizzy hair. It looks borderline unprofessional. I enjoy wearing it back, but a ponytail just won’t cut it. Can anyone recommend a website or series of videos for tips on how to wear your hair back at the office?

    • I think that instead of videos, you need to go to a stylist and have them help you with styles and products. Or just try a bunch of products on your own.

      Its expensive, but I tried a bunch of products until finding one that worked for me. Right now, I am using Loreal EverSleek conditioner and Pureology Pure Volume Blow Dry Amplifier. Its not perfect, but right now it keeping my fly-aways under control. (My hair is somewhat wavy and fine. I get lots of fly-aways, but not frizziness). My best friend had good luck with some sort of hot oil treatment she bought at the grocery store.

    • I was going to reply with something similar. My hair is thin and fine and hard to style. I find that I have to be really careful about products and I have to keep styling to a minimum because the more I do with my hair, the worse it looks. Anything that weighs down my hair is out. I keep it short and use Rusk Thick spray to keep down the flyaways and Brocato Cloud 9 style creme to keep the front of my hair from getting damaged by the blow dryer. If it’s not too warm or humid, I can use a flatiron to smooth out the ends, but if it’s too warm in the house, it makes my hair go completely flat. Try working with a good stylist and talk about products.

      • gibson roll tutorial posted on corporette last few months. my new favorite thing to look polished. did it yesterday, takes a minute.

    • Divaliscious11 :

      Agreed with the above. Go to sites like naturallycurly dot com and first learn how to embrace your curls. Then you’ll need to do some product sampling to figure out what works on your hair, and then you probably need a cut that works for your hair.

  10. I realize I am probably way, way behind the ball on this . . . but I just started using eyeshadow primer, and WOW. A friend gifted me one of the Urban Decay N*ked sets, and it comes with primer . . . I had always discarded the idea, thinking, “surely the eyeshadow scientists make the product well enough, and a pile-on product is money down the drain.” No. I have used it the last two days, and my eyeshadow (while neutral – n*ked, even) is so much richer in color and stays all day.

    • DallasSkirt Envy :

      Ok, totally stupid here. I got some free when I last bought eyeshadow and through it aside. How exactly is it used? Mine came in what looks like a tiny hand lotion tube.

      • DallasSkirt Envy :

        make that “threw”

      • Merabella :

        I usually put the primer on from lash to brow bone. Make sure you rub it in evenly, and then apply eyeshadow as usual. It is AMAZING! I always get more compliments on my eyeshadow when I use primer.

      • The primer that I have is used just like cream for your face, except in a much smaller quantity. I normally put the tiniest little drop on my finger and run it gently over my entire eyelid. Then, just apply the eye shadow like you normally would. I make sure the primer is dry so that it doesn’t make clumps while I’m trying to apply the eye shadow. It’s kind of like chapstick for the eyes :)

    • RussiaRepeat :

      It’s almost too good–I have trouble blending my eye shadow when I wear it. But yeah, no racoon eyes where my shadow has sloughed off onto my lower lids. The n*ked pallette is almost all I need for work eye make-up (and the sparkly ones are nice for nights out), though I did buy a separate matte grey.

    • And now you made me realize that I forgot to bring makeup to work to prep for a 6:00 p.m. date. Darn it.

      • Do you have a sephora nearby? Or really any cosmetics counter. I’ve done that before when I’m at the store buying something and realized I forgot mascara or whatever. Pop it on and then I’ve tried a new product too!

  11. DallasSkirt Envy :

    Lets talk about shoe care! Recently I started a job where I wear heels every day. I have invested in several good pairs of Cole Haan and similar quality shoes but find myself not knowing how to care for them. I’m not sure how to know when they need to be resoled, reheeled, etc. Is there a tutorial out there for this?

    • Anonymous :

      My 200 dollar Cole Haans were 100 dollars more than I ever paid for shoes. Before I even wore them I had an extra sole put on so they would last longer.

    • I have most of my heels rubberized before I wear them, and get them resoled when I start to notice a lot of wear (especially if it’s in/around the same area). Other than that, the best thing I’ve found–both for my shoes and my feet–is rotating my lineup so I never wear the same pair of shoes two days in a row.

      • Goosebumpy :

        I put rubber soles on all my shoes now, too. (I’ve got an adorable and ancient Italian cobbler who’s just a block away.) I wish I would’ve known about that trick a whole lot earlier.

    • AnotherLadyLawyer :

      No idea about a tutorial, but for me the sad heel is the kicker. NYC flat out destroys heels or maybe it’s me? Down the road, take a look at them every couple of months to make sure there’s still some heel left. Once you can fully see (and hear the metallic click click click of) whatever it is under where the heel should be, it may be too late! FWIW, I’m a Cole Haan Nike Air girl and I probably have my go-to pairs re-heeled once or twice a year, but I’ve never had them re-soled. I also had my favorite and significantly cheaper pair of pumps re-heeled and re-soled last year as a last ditch effort to save them. Alas, they died (so sad!). My only other tips are to resist the urge to chuck them all under your desk — nothing scuffs my shoes more than living in the shoe graveyard under my desk. (I’m now the proud owner of an in-office, under-desk shoe rack).

    • With pointy toed shoes, I have toe taps put on right away to lessen scuffing. Otherwise, I just replace the heel tips when the nail starts peeking out.

    • I drive a good distance to/from work, so all my right shoes are scuffed in the back-right side, where they touch the floormat. While blacks and browns can be helped by polish, shoes in more exotic colors look really sad. Does anyone know how to remedy or prevent this, short of keeping driving shoes in the car?

    • Marie Curie :

      Thanks to fashion blogs I learned about cobblers and what amazing things they can do (I honestly had no idea you could stretch out shoes). Now I take shoes in to have a protective rubber sole added before I even wear them. However, because I don’t have that much money I only do this for shoes that “need it”, i.e. when they have a flat leather sole without any profile that I can just see getting scratched and ruined the first time I wear them. I haven’t yet reached a point where shoes need to be resoled or reheeled but maybe I should check my collection. Like I said, I had no idea cobblers could do this and so never paid any attention to the sole or heels. My ex also taught me about how to use shoe polish for my black suede boots, but I admit I’m a bit lazy about it and only brush off the dirt after wearing them. I have shoes stretched when needed and it’s made such a difference. And I use rain protection spray on all of my suede shoes.

      • Marie Curie :

        Ok, other comment ended in moderation because of link, so here it is again: A video where a blogger talks about her shoe care.
        www dot iamstyle-ish dot com and search for “shoe care”

  12. Do people like their jobs? How can so many of you work so much? I think I’m in the wrong industry, but I don’t know where to go from here. I’m in public accounting and I know I don’t work as much as many of you ladies, but this is our busy time and I am so sick of working. I can’t even make myself work anymore. I want to leave, but I don’t know where to go. I honestly sometimes wish I could just be a homemaker and sit at home all day with my dog and volunteer and read and travel. I find myself jealous of my rich clients’ wives!

    Growing up I always thought I was smart and ambitious and a hard worker, but I want to give up. I want to sleep more than six hours a night and I want to have time to myself and not spend all my time working and worrying about billable goals and my clients’ demands and I want to go to the gym and I want a job where I get in at 8 and leave at 5 and don’t think about it when I’m not there. I want time and energy to go out and meet people and have a boyfriend and more than two friends. But I also want to be able to pay the bills and not feel like a failure.

    Seriously, how do all of you women do it? I’m only five years into my career but I’m ready to retire!

    • SpaceMountain :

      I’d love to hear the answers, too, but because I’m thinking of trying to educate my middle-school daughter to some future career options. My husband and I are both lawyers so she knows all about that (and does NOT want to do it), so I’m curious about some other careers that you all have, and how you like it.

      • I’m in marketing, and I really enjoy the field itself. My current organization can be frustrating because sometimes it takes a while to get things approved, but I think red tape is present in a lot of organizations.

        I enjoy marketing because it allows me to be creative and deal with people. I also like that my duties change every day, from ad design, to tradeshow logistics, to strategy, and dealing with vendors/clients. If your daughter is interested in learning about a marketing career, my blog is linked to my name, and I write about a lot of different marketing observations.

        • I am also in marketing at a Fortune 500 company. The hours are great 8-5 and employer is extremely flexible. I work out of the home whenever I feel I need to and many people work a few hours extra a night and take everyother Friday off. Some travel, but not much and it is almost never last minute.

          I tell my friends I basically get paid to come up with ideas. The work is challenging and creative. The pay is not as good as law or medicine but there is good potential. I actually have been considering leaving because of the pay! :(

          • There’s no non-shameful way to say this, anon, but I would love to network with you! I’m doing well in my current position, but networking with other marketers is difficult because I’m so busy. So, if you’re not opposed to nerding out with another marketer, we should talk :)

      • Anonymous :

        Y’know I wish middle schools focused on getting kids out and (pseudo)-interning in the real world. I think I only really understood a handful of jobs at that point in my life (lawyer, teacher, doctor, construction worker). I really didn’t get things like R&D, Project Management or Sales. (I mean I understood sales at the level of, we buy things at Wal-Mart or the grocery store, not Sales like how does the buying and selling of commercials work, or of wholesale deals, etc.) But I made decisions about high-school and college based on really incomplete information about careers. So I really understand your concerns.

        Honestly, if I were helping a middle schooler out I would make it a summer project, get her a notebook and help her put together a career portfolio type thing where she goes and interviews people about how they got their job and what they actually do and what they like best and least about it. Use your network and see if you can get her five or so interviews and have her ask each interviewer who the person they know with the most interesting job. You’ll teach her so much! Not just about jobs, but how to act in professional settings, how networking works, how working people really spend their days, how to follow through, how to break down big projects. She could turn it into a blog or into an extra credit when she gets back to school (English teachers always loved to give extra credit for projects I brought them).

        I know a lot of people who are really happy in various forms of hospital work (administrators, planners, assistants). They work reasonable hours, have good health insurance and feel like their jobs help people instead of just enriching stock holders and CEOs. I think if I had to do it all again I’d do hospital administration or Organizational Psychology.

        Of course, I don’t feel a compelling need to make money or buy shoes or anything like that. Which are legitimate priorities to consider when thinking about jobs. You should definitely talk to your daughter about what her priorities and values are, since our jobs tend to shape how we live every aspect of our lives.

        Good luck!

    • I hate my job/career (five years in as well), but I do it because I don’t know what else I’d do and at this point, I’m not up for a major overhaul of everything. All the things you are saying are the same for me.

      I just suck it up and work. I know that sounds terrible, but I fill my non-work time with fun things (or not fun things, but things I enjoy) and when I’m at work, I try my hardest to pay attention to what I’m doing and do a good job (despite my posting on this website all day). I don’t think I’ll ever love my job the way other people love their jobs, but I can love other things so I just concentrate on loving those things.

      I will say that I don’t have any kids yet, but I definitely wonder how that will change things…

      • Feet in two boats :

        Advice on retirements accounts for non-residents? I’ve been thinking of opening a Roth IRA for almost 6 months now. I’ve been here for 7 years now but mostly as a student. By the time I get permanent residency (if that), it would be another six years. I can’t decide if I should sink the money in and forget about it. What happens if DH and I have to leave and return to our country? This is the last year (2011) we can open a Roth as I will be starting a much higher paying job later in the year. Anyone know someone in the same situation?

        • I don’t have much advice but I am a non- perm resident/non citizen too, came here as a student, not married yet. I no longer qualify for roth IRA. I just put enough money in my employer sponsored 401K to get the maximum match and tax benefit. Don’t know if I will stay in this country long enough to retire here, so I am not putting anything beyond the minimum in 401 (k) and only started doing it recently because now I am fully vested in my employer’s 100% match. Not doing it would mean throwing away free money. I haven’t bought a house or condo either given uncertainty over the long green card process even though I could easily afford it. I am basically living way below my means and build up my savings for who knows what the future holds.

          • You can still do a Roth IRA. You just put the money into a regular IRA, then convert it really quickly, before there is any gain in the IRA. That’s what I do (biglaw, so salary this year will be $170K + bonus). The IRA is a money-market, and I roll it into a Roth within a day or two of depositing in the IRA.

          • Feet in two boats :

            I hear you – that’s pretty much what we’re doing…I wish we had more certainty, would make long term decisions a tad bit easier to take.

      • Do you think you’d enjoy teaching? Smaller colleges often hire accounting profs with master’s level degrees vs needing the PhD; the pay is less, but there’s so much flexibility. Plus you get to talk about all those things you do love about your field.

        • I don’t actually have a master’s degree, so I wouldn’t be able to teach. But honestly, I don’t think that I’d make a very good teacher. Talking in front of groups of people for a living sounds like my idea of torture!

    • Anonymous :

      MY SO is in public accounting and is currently working 7 days a week with 4 hours of sleep each day during busy season. He’s thinking about moving to internal audit after he’s more established at the big 4. Not really advice, but kudos to you for grinding it out this far.

    • I could have written this. Especially your second paragraph. Sadly, I have no good advice (since I’m the same boat) but I just wanted to let you know you’re not the only one!

      – A fellow number cruncher

    • Woods-comma-Elle :

      I’ve recently felt a bit like this. I don’t mind the late hours now and then, but weekends are sacred. I’d rather stay at work late in the week than work during the weekend, but last week I had to and it made me so pissed off. I realised tonight that I haven’t done anything social on a Friday night since before Christmas… I don’t hate my job as such, but having had a prolonged period of long hours has started to get to me.

    • Anon for this :

      Wait! I could almost imagine writing the same thing, except that I’ve only been at my career for about a year and a half.

      I don’t think I’m cut out for my line of work and it is sad that it took me 90K in loans to figure that out.

    • I have a love/hate relationship with my job. Sometimes I am burning to quit. Other times, I’m really happy here and truly grateful to do what I do. I’ve learned that things can be awful, but they also can get so much better. There is hope! I think you just have to learn how to assert yourself to meet your own needs and let go of what you can’t control and stop obsessing over it. Recognize and accept the crappy parts of your job (assuming they can’t be changed) so that you won’t be disappointed each time they pop up. Focus on the good things in your life and make more of them happen. Even small steps like making yourself healthy lunches to enjoy at work or going for a run in the evening can help you feel so much better. I think when you’re in a situation that drains you, you have to make a conscious effort to fill yourself back up. Find spaces in the day where you can do that.

      • Another Sarah :

        I feel the same way. My direct co-manager and I have very different working styles and we often frustrate each other – him needing more structure from me, me needing more flexibility from him. And we communicate differently – he expects me to update him, I expect him to tell me what he needs. It’s incredibly frustrating. But overall, I enjoy what I do and my co-workers, so I’ll keep going in!

      • I also have a love/hate relationship with my job.
        I am in a small market and have multiple functions (3 job titles).
        It is beyond frustrating how people assume that I am 100% available for their important project, when I am in fact struggling to solve a major business issue.
        I had many insecurities and thought of quitting several times. But to be honest, I am very grateful for my job and the pay is amazing.
        After a very tough year, I had several major disappointments.
        I started doing like you did Viv and enjoying little things. Went back to working out whenever I can, did some retail therapy, started to network in my field.
        I am aware that life is not all pink (as we say in French “La vie n’est pas toute rose”) but I try to see and enjoy the little wins as much as possible

    • Whenever I’m feeling truly awful about my job, I read this thread. It’s so honest and true to life and also kind of depressing and hilarious at the same time in a black humor kind of way. It makes me feel better.


    • No real advice to share, but I’m in the same situation as you and completely understand what you’re going through. I did actually leave temporarily for a 8-6 job (internal audit for an IB) and loved the hours and the pay, but hated the nature of the work and the backstabby unsupportive culture and wound up pretty depressed as a result. I was so relieved to go back to doing something that I actually enjoy, with people I like working with, and made giving up my whole life for it much easier because I didn’t have that fantasy of the dream 9-5 job.

      How long have you been there? After 5 years at a big 4 you can jump out and earn a lot more money with fewer hours and less stress quite easily.

      In any take-over-your-life job being super organised and prioritising is key, and you have to be okay with the fact that you are going to have to sacrifice a lot to make this work. You can’t do everything you want outside of work, but pick something that is important for you and stick to it. In my group it’s normal for everyone to have one night with a scheduled activity (sport training or a class) that they HAVE to get out by 7pm for, even if they continue to work from home afterwards. I also take full advantage of the freedom and control that this job gives me. I will take a two hour lunch to catch up with a friend on slower days, and if I’m feeling particularly over it I will go home at 3pm, nap or laze around for a couple of hours until I feel energised again. (Note that I can do this because I have a history of delivering, it takes a few years to earn this!). If I need sleep, I get it. It’s not brain surgery, nobody is going to die if you take a couple of hours to look after yourself, and it makes me feel like I’m doing this because I want to, not because I have to.

    • Former public accountant here – I transitioned out of public practice into industry almost 2 years ago, trading tax season (6 weeks straight) for month end (1-2 late nights per month), and I love it. The pay is better, there are more perks, more interesting people, and I still get to be an accountant, which I love.

      If you enjoy accounting, but tax season is burning you out (which I completely sympathize with) have you considered going industry? I was initially worried about making the transition because I wasn’t sure my skills would transfer very well, but luckily I was hired by someone who was also formerly in public practice and recognized the skill set I gained while in public practice would serve me well in industry and she was right. The other concern I had was getting bored – I didn’t want to do data entry. I got hired by a large oil & gas services company and because of my designation (CGA in Canada) and my experience I am at a high enough level (operations controller now after starting as senior accountant) that I do very little data entry, and every day is different.

      Seriously, the best career move I ever made.

      • I am considering industry. I was actively looking for jobs last spring, but ended up settling for another firm to make sure that I was not at my old firm when busy season (for the 9/15 deadline) started. My biggest worry though is with my experience I will only be able to get a job where I do the same thing every day and I will either be stuck in the same position forever or have to move to a new company to move up. Although, I suppose at the moment being stuck in a boring job sounds better than where I am now.

        Thanks for telling me about your experience. I’m glad to hear that it has worked out well for some people! Most of the people that I started with either are still in public or have gone on to boring jobs, so it makes me feel better that there are some success stories out there.

    • Thank you everyone who has written something. It’s nice to know that I’m not alone. I wanted to add a couple more things to what I’ve wrote above, in case someone has some advice.

      First, while I am in public accounting, I’m not at a Big 4 firm, nor am I in audit. Like most people who go into public accounting I only imagined I’d be here a 2-3 years, but I’ve found it’s harder to get out with a tax background and without the Big 4 name on my resume. I actually changed firms over the summer and while my new firm is considerably better than where I was before, I know it’s the nature of the work that I really dislike. I’ve met with several recruiters over the years, but not much has come out of it. I went on one non-public accounting interview last summer, but I knew after about 10 minutes in that the job was a bad fit for me (and according to the recruiter, so did they).

      I also feel a little guilty trying to find a new job, since I’ve been here now less than a year and the people here are so awesome. The partner I work with the most is what I would consider the ultimate Corporette – incredibly bright, fast worker, new mom that has managed to stay in shape and always looks well put together at work, always has my back with the clients, takes time to go over any questions I have, is always calm, funny in meeting, and I have never walked out of her office feeling worse than when I went in. Oh, and uses her time off to take exotic vacations with her family. I have never had a better professional role model.

      My parents are pressuring me to go to business school, which I imagine I’d love for the two years that I was there, but I’m not sure what I would do when I got out. Plus, I have no idea who I would even ask for a recommendation letter, since I wouldn’t want my current employers to know I was applying and quite frankly I’m not sure who I could ask at my former firm.

      I try to do things that I enjoy when I’m not at work, but honestly most days I just want to go home and sit by myself. I try to never bring work home, which works well for me, but it also means that I usually don’t get home until 10 or so most nights during the week. Which is doable for a week or two, but I’m a month in with one and a half left and I’m miserable.

      Wow, that was long. If anyone read it, thanks. It’s clearly Friday and I don’t want to do any more work, even though I need to bill at least 10-15 more hours this week. UGG.

      • Unless you have someone that will pay for it I wouldn’t suggest going to business school. DO you have your CPA? Most states require 150+ credits. If you would need to go back to take the exam then I would suggest getting an MBA. You will have more options later.

        I’m a CPA with my MBA, in public accounting, and specializing in audits of government, nonprofits, and healthcare providers. I have 2 busy seasons a year b/c my clients are 12/31 and 6/30 year-ends. The job security and salary keep me coming to work. Otherwise I am miserable :)

        I am at work today for about 10 hours and tomorrow probably another 5.

        • I do have my CPA license, I was able to get my 150 hours while I was in undergraduate. The idea of getting an MBA would really be to move out of public accounting, I just have no idea where I want to move to. My parents have offered to help me pay for part of the MBA, but they already paid for all of my undergraduate schooling and they are now retired, so I would feel bad taking their money.

          Job security and salary are what keep me here too, but sometimes I just wish that they’d fire me.

    • I love this question because I love my job! After 2 years as a marketing account manager, I basically fell into a nonprofit advancement position (also known as development or fundraising) and have never looked back. I’m now in my 7th year in this field and have had a couple of different jobs at different orgs; change usually came about because of big life stuff (i.e. I moved when I got married, I took a job that entailed less travel when I had a baby). I now work in a private secondary school and oversee a staff of 7. Every single day is different, which is awesome.

      While many people see fundraisers as the nonprofit equivalent of used car salesmen, my job is more about making people feel appreciated and determining ways to help connect them with dreams they want to make happen. Philanthropy is so freaking cool and I feel fortunate every day to be a part of this world…AND to get paid for doing it!

      Upside: flexible job, flexible workplace cultures (usually), because night/weekend work isn’t uncommon. Downside: you’re NEVER done raising money. Ever ever ever. But it’s a great, professional job that typically allows for good work-life balance (even though I do check work email on a smartphone and have a four-hour meeting scheduled for this weekend, I rarely work past 5 pm if not earlier).

      Rereading this, I realize I sound like a cheerleader on speed. No really — I do love my job that much.

    • seltzer pop :

      No advice, just sympathy – though I’m not an accountant, I recently started out in a pretty similar job (actuary at a consulting/audit company). I’ve started too recently to be burned out just yet, but I’m wondering how anybody ever has time to build a life outside of work – it seems like all I do is work/sleep/study for exams…sigh. Looking forward to hearing about how all of yall uber Corporettes do it!

      • I see it as the unfortunate reality of choices in professional USA. Not that there aren’t exceptions, but by and large our balance is out of whack. We don’t have enough time of in our jobs to be refreshed and thus happy. I don’t have a solution, because I like having a career I enjoy despite being tired, and a good paycheck. And while there are those rare super flexy part time gigs out there, I don’t see how I could be effective/compete in those roles. My hopes: maybe I will do a stint for my company in EU someday, where I’d be entitled to local leave. Maybe the millenials, and even my mid-30’s types, will assert ourselves as the boomers retire and change things (hard to picture a sea change moving fast, but the young’uns don’t seem to put up with it well). Maybe I will take breaks or something. But yes, I agree with you it is exhausting and doesn’t seem right. I also agree with the person who said to do little things. After working 10-14 hr days the past few months while pregnant, I had a flexible day this week, and my teamate and I went shopping at 2pm for an hour. And I had a long lunch. Twice. I felt cheery afterwards. And I left at 3:40 yesterday with no explanation when boss asked where I was headed. As a whole, we need to deftly, professionally voice these concerns in the right ways to our employers over time if we ever see it want to change. I do.

    • I completed an internship in public accounting and then used a move as an excuse to get out of there! One thing to keep in mind- once you leave public, is it nearly impossible to get back in without dropping your pay considerably. It also sounds like you’re in tax and those positions can be rare in-house. I currently work for a mega-conglomerate and while we have analysts and accountants on the ground at every location, all of our tax accountants are holed up in HQ.
      But… every recruiter I’ve ever worked with prefers somebody with at least a year or two of public on their resume, particularly Big 4 or big players in the city. In my case, it didn’t matter that I mainly did individual taxes; they just liked to see the name there. If you’re willing to come over to the financial reporting or audit side of life, you may find a lot more opportunity once you put in a year or two in. You may have to move departments/divisions/companies every few years (3-10, depending on your industry) to keep the raises going. That’s just the reality of private industry.
      Also, if you have your CPA and the desire to set your own hours, have you considered setting out on your own? If I was finished with my CPA, that’s what I’d be doing right now.

  13. Another career question — I’m a 3L and have a two-year clerkship lined up after graduation, so I’m not looking for a job in the short term, but I’ve recently realized that I’ve gotten through 2.75 years of law school without thinking enough about what my long-term career will be. After pondering for a while, I’ve realized I don’t even know that much about what lawyers do outside of the jobs you hear about in law school — big law firm litigator, public defender or prosecutor, legal aid lawyer, professor, the mysterious “transactional lawyer” and “in-house counsel,” etc.

    So… if you have a law degree and don’t do one of those jobs (or if you do one of the mysterious jobs, or have comments about one of the non-mysterious jobs, or if you have a friend or family member with a cool legal job), I’d love to hear a couple sentences about what you do and whether you like it. Recommendations for helpful books on legal careers would also be much appreciated. Many thanks!

    • Woods-comma-Elle :

      I’m a transactional lawyer – in a geeky way I quite like being referred to as ‘mysterious’

      • My friend went on a first date with a transactional attny last week. She asked me “what EXACTLY does he do?” and I just scratched my head. What EXACTLY do you do day to day?

        • I’m a transactional lawyer, and my answer to this question is: (a) manage people, and (b) make lots of lists.

        • another woman of mystery here – draft agreements, spend hours on phone with other side negotiating agreements, re-write accordingly.

        • Woods-comma-Elle :

          All of the above. Basically it works like this:

          1. Get a new deal in
          2. Advice on the structure
          3. Draft the contracts
          4. Negotiate the contracts
          5. Prep all the ancillary documents and organise them
          6. Get the contracts signed/close the deal
          7. Drink champagne/sleep
          8. Repeat steps 1-7

          When I write it out like that it sounds really dull, but I actually find it really interesting, it moves a lot quicker, a deal usually closes in about 3-4 months, sometimes longer, sometimes shorter, as opposed to litigation which can go on for years. And everybody (mostly) wants the same thing, so people are nicer :-)

      • Divaliscious11 :

        Me too, I am a transactional in-house lawyer! I feel like I need a veil! lol

    • I’m so glad you asked this because I’m facing the end of my two year clerkship, and I still have no idea what I’m going to do. I would love to hear suggestions of jobs other than those anon 3L listed because I would much rather do a non-traditional job instead of litigating, etc.

    • sigh. i’m a big boring biglaw litigator. wish i was mysterious.

    • So happy you posted this! I’ll be reading the responses.

    • In House Counsel :

      Not sure if in-house counsel is mysterious or not:) but I went in-house about a year ago as a 4th yr. Work at a large publishing company and support several of the [product specific] business units with their daily commercial transactions (a lot of licensing agreement, sales — both traditional and subscription based as well as reseller, joint venture etc., technology IT agreements, some privacy work etc.). Also do general trademark and advertising/promotions support across the company. Prior to this I was an IP attorney at a law firm on the transactional side.

      Friends joke i’m one of the few attys they know who LOVES their job. for me the key has been the variety of work and being able as in-house counsel to really understand the business which has helped me understand how the work i do (drafting contracts or advising a business unit on next steps in a developing a product) fits into the larger picture. also the hours are much better here and my boss is actually NICE and compliments my work (rare occurence at the firm!).

      • My dream job is to work as in house counsel for a publishing company. Would you mind telling a little bit more about what qualifications/background someone with your job needs?

        • InHouse Counsel :


          Just saw this. Our department is a mix of folks. Depending on the responsibilities, the mix of skill sets includes M&A, labor/employment and IP/IT transactional. I’d say the majority of us have a strong IP background prior to moving into this role. Most of us are also primarily transactional though a couple of my colleagues who handle litigation obviously came from an IP/commercial litigation background

    • AnotherLadyLawyer :

      As one of those run of the mill big firm litigators, I’d love to see responses to this. My inclination, however, is that most of the mysteriously cool non-listed jobs only come after years of doing the not-so-mysterious, not-so-cool jobs you already know about. Definitely works that way with in-house counsel jobs for the most part, so I assume that it works that way with jobs that bridge legal/business worlds and quasi-legal jobs that seem like way more fun than mine!

    • I guess I’m a “typical” small firm litigator? I LOVE it (80% of the time). I’m in court every day, I’m in constant contact with my adversaries and clients (good and bad thing), I do more substantive work than my biglaw litigation friends, and my office is small so while I’m still working 10-14 hrs/day, if I need to leave early or take a day off I can. Sorry if it sounds like I’m gloating, but aside from not making 180k+, I’m really happy with my post-law school life.

      • Ok just realized you totally didn’t ask for any small firm litigator responses. Anyway, something to just keep in mind as you’re rounding out school and looking into your near-distant future: opportunities may arise in areas you never thought of, and those opportunities may lead to happiness and fulfillment that you had never anticipated. Never rule out any possibilities.

    • GVT Lawyer :

      There are a lot of gvt jobs in a lot of different areas at local, state, and federal levels and depending on the job you get decent hours and much more responsibility right out of the gate.

    • NGO Worker :

      I work for an international NGO – like one of the ones that’s been in the news lately with the trial in Egypt. In the big picture, I advise governmental institutions on how to comply with international law. In the day to day, I either stare at a computer screen and go to meetings, or I fly to another country where I stare at a computer screen and go to meetings. I don’t really want to be more specific. I do like my job, very much. There are lots of jobs for lawyers in similar NGOs, although you’ll need the right resume to get one.

      • This sounds exactly like the kind of work I would like to do in the long run. I’m still in school and am having a hard time finding opportunities that I think could put me on the right track. Do you have any advice/can I pick your brain, please?

        • NGO Worker :

          Sure. I gave some advice below, but feel free to ask questions – I’ll check back.

          Since you’re still a student, try to do an international internship, and take some international relations or policy courses. Join clubs related to international affairs. For example, I’m a lawyer, and I and many other colleagues judge an international moot court contest every year – it is a great way for the students who participate to meet practitioners, and occasionally they land an internship or job because of it.

          • Thanks! I’ve got some international experience, but would really like to get more. With regard to the moot court point, I hope to do Jessup next year, but am also considering doing a full time externship with a development organization and can’t do both. I’m trying to get in as many international law classes as possible, and am also taking some out of department classes on international relations. I don’t want to out myself too much online, but if I could ask you more questions and let you know a little bit more about me privately I would really appreciate it! My email is lfgttb at gmail dot com.

          • NGO Worker :

            @anon – do the externship. I will email you.

      • Anonymous NYer :

        What qualifies as the “right resume”? This type of job has always intrigued me, and while I’m sure I don’t have that magical right resume, I’d like to know what one looks like.

        • NGO Worker :

          A combination of previous experience in developing countries, a degree (or at least a lot of coursework) in a related field, really good grades, and the sort of intangible quality that
          I can best describe as the ability to take care of yourself/handle difficult situations. If you’re already out of school, try to do some international volunteer work to make up for the lack of previous experience and a related degree. Also, most development jobs for US citizen employees are partially or entirely program management positions, so gaining previous experience as a project manager of some sort will transfer well. If you’re a lawyer, there are often opportunities to work in other countries in specific areas of law, so pick a practice area that will translate well (anti-corruption and environmental/natural resources law come to mind right of the top of my head).

    • I’m an employment lawyer, I represent school districts with employee management, student management, contracts, bargaining, etc… I’ve just started, but there’s supposed to be a lot more bargaining in my future. (I hope!)

      Before that I worked for a firm that represented police and firefighter unions (boy am I outed if anyone on here actually knows me irl!) basically whenever a cop did something or was accused of doing something wrong, I would attend the interrogation with internal affairs, then represent the client through a pre-disciplinary appeal and a post-disciplinary appeal (usually arbitration) then, if we felt there was something wrong with the verdict, we could go to superior court, and ultimately the court of appeals. (Never happened for me but one of my coworkers got to.) I also drafted agreements and acted as the union’s corporate counsel with regards to bylaws, dealing with management, and brown act issues, etc…

    • Diana Barry :

      I do trusts and estates. It is cool! No emergencies, you deal with people instead of companies, get to do research (if clients need weird trust/tax advice), and you can usually set your own hours, even at bigger firms. :)

      • Diana Barry :

        Oh, and no fighting in court (I hate confrontation). If you do go to court it is boring and uncontested 99% of the time.

      • Is it possible to get into T&E if you didn’t take those courses in law school?

    • anon for this :

      I’m a lawyer employed by a municipality (i.e. a city or county law dept) to represent the municipality’s social services department. Mostly that means representing the child protective services social workers in court when they want to remove a child from home due to abuse/neglect/some other safety concern. Sometimes we have more voluntary arrangements when a child has severe disabilities that exceed the parent’s financial and other resources. So I do a ton of juvenile court litigation, some related family court stuff, and mediations etc. We get to do adoptions when kids are adopted out of foster care, which is always like the happiest day at work. There is a bit of general counsel-type work as well in terms of advising the dept on new laws/policies or representing them if they get sued in some other capacity (hasn’t happened yet, since I’ve been there.).

      This is absolutely not something I ever wanted to do when I was in law school, but the opportunity came up at a good location for me and I decided to give it a try. I’m so glad I did. I really love it most of the time. I’ve only been there about a year.

      I think its important to focus more on the qualities of the job than the intellectual subject area of law you would practice (which it sounds like you’re doing, from asking this question). My jobs suits me very well because it has the following things that are important for my own job satisfaction: reasonable hours (9-5, comp time if I go over that during a trial and no prob taking time off as long as I schedule my docket accordingly), good benefits, decent pay- though not on par with most private practice attorneys (I make in the 60-70k range), tons of responsibility early on- I’ve already questioned witnesses in court/done openings and closings etc, enough craziness to keep me from being bored ever, and some level of moral/deeper satisfaction because I help social workers get kids out of dangerous situations and sometimes to get them adopted.

      My job would be a bad fit for someone who needs prestige, wants to make more than 100k anytime soon, is uncomfortable in crisis situations or with lots of responsibility. Also, you have to find humor in crappy situations and have a high tolerance for discussing the nitty gritty of sex abuse, drug abuse, physical abuse, other kinds of debauchery.

      I second whoever said to keep an open mind because you might find yourself happily working somewhere you never would have expected.

    • I have done some of those (transactional and litigation) and now much happier I work in a large company doing global policy and strategy in a subject matter area that is a passion for me. It is by far the best job I’ve had. It took the decade plus years of putting in dues in other roles though to get it- no way would someone get hired for my role without the history, as no way could they be effective without the stripes- hard to explain, but you have to learn to execute, deal with people properly, have a technical skill to leverage, have contacts, etc.

      I like the advice phrase ‘play the hand you are dealt’- whatever you end up doing, learn it, work hard, map out pathways to transition to the next better thing using what you have done.

    • Thank you all very much for these answers, both the specific career descriptions and the general advice. I do agree with the people who have said that it’s important to be open to unexpected opportunities, but I also think I’m less likely to get stuck in a position out of sheer inertia if I have a long-term goal, even if that goal is very much subject to change. Lots to think about! Thanks again for sharing your cool jobs.

      • Anonymous :

        anon 3L, if you’re still reading here, check out Kimm Walton’s book “America’s Greatest Places to Work with a Law Degree.” Don’t read it for detailed salary information and addresses, etc. — it was written in 1998 so it’s very much out of date in that respect. Read it as a way to get ideas about what else you could do as a lawyer besides be a litigator in BigLaw.

    • I’m transactional–not a lawyer, just a sr. paralegal. I do a lot of IPOs (I’m in Silicon Valley and that’s been the thing for about a year now), a lot of venture financings, and a lot of M&A. I also do general public company work and a quite a lot of later-stage private company rep work too. Basically, I work in a really broad corporate practice and that’s what I like about it. As soon as I am tired of preparing one more overhang analysis or disclosure schedule or board consent or dealing with a signing/closing, it’s on to another type of deal and another client. My timesheets can reflect work for five or more clients per day, and while I am not an ADD-type in that I can concentrate fine, I do think the variety keeps me fresh and focused. I do like my job, most of the time…

      Also, I would say that there are ups and downs in terms of tiredness…and I go through phases where I’m exhausted. That’s the nature of the biglaw transactional beast, particularly when a deal (or three) is (are) in a really heated phase.

  14. Accountress :

    Thanks to everyone who suggested hair care products for my silver-haired mom. We ended up getting her the L’Oreal blonde & grey shampoo and conditioner (after a great hassle- she wanted to get the $8 bottle that she didn’t like the smell of, just because it was the cheapest.)

    She has been alternating using it and her normal shampoo/conditioner for about 2 weeks now- she likes how smooth her hair feels after using the new stuff, and has seen the yellowing start to disappear.

    I do attribute part of the differences she’s seen to the fact that she is no longer washing her hair every day- she argued strenuously that it was fine to wash it every day, but I convinced her to give it two weeks, and see how her hair improved. She now agrees that every other day is better for her.

    Now if only she’ll agree to hire painters to paint when she moves into her & Dad’s new condo…

  15. momentsofabsurdity :

    I’ve just taken a significant pay raise and am looking at moving out of my (crappy crappy crappy mice infested – leaky roof – basement level) current apartment to a nicer one closer into the city (and cut my commute in half) when my lease is up. Unfortunately, most of my friends are still at lower paygrades and won’t be able to come with into a nicer place/area. However, I’d still like to have roommates, mostly because even with the pay raise, I can’t afford a better-located apartment without roommates and plus, I like having people to hang with when I come home. The cost of a 1 bedroom around where I live would still be more than the cost of a room in a roommate situation much closer into town, so it just makes sense to me to move closer in and add roommates.

    Any suggestions for finding roommates? I’ve been looking at Craigslist and no luck thus far. I still have a few months (hoping to sign a lease in May/June for Sep. move in). What I’d love is to find someone who wants to go looking to find a great place together. I’ve been putting out feelers to friends/friends of friends/asking my current roommates, but I went to a touchy-feely small liberal arts college, and most of my friends in the area are in nonprofit work and are barely getting by with the $500-700/mo rent they’re paying now. Is there a resource I’m missing?

  16. Feet in two boats :

    I’m reposting this as it got submitted as a reply to a previous comment:

    Advice on retirements accounts for non-residents? I’ve been thinking of opening a Roth IRA for almost 6 months now. I’ve been here for 7 years now but mostly as a student. By the time I get permanent residency (if that), it would be another six years. I can’t decide if I should sink the money in and forget about it. What happens if DH and I have to leave and return to our country? This is the last year (2011) we can open a Roth as I will be starting a much higher paying job later in the year. Anyone know someone in the same situation?

  17. I’m with Kat – I have early Spring Fever! I took a vacation day off today for mental health and bought yellow paint for my dining room and took a long walk with the dogs. So glad it’s the weekend!

  18. Trash talker :

    Anyone work with a person who spends most of his/her time trash talking other coworkers to management while simultaneously not doing much of any work him/herself? I work with a person like this and most of us are at our wit’s end with her. We mostly just try to ignore her, but everyone’s workload has been increased because of her inability to do anything. Any advice in dealing with this?

    • No, but I’ve noticed in situations like that, I find myself asking, “Does no one else realize how awful she is????” And the answer is usually yes, they do.

    • Trash talker and management are both at fault, IMO. I don’t have any experience, but I know it happens. I’d just make sure you document all your work and your contributions to each project; not just what you did, but what were the results? “Implemented x initiative with projected annual savings of $25k.” Or whatever is considered results in your industry. If trash talker isn’t doing work, she isn’t producing results (and if she says she is, she’s lying). Do you submit weekly/monthly status reports? Are roles, responsibilities, and deadlines clearly defined through e-mail or staff meetings? “Bob will do x (bob head nods), Jane will do this (Jane head nods)…” If not and you are in a meeting/e-mail thread, you could always pipe up if there is ambiguity and say “I’m a little confused on this one piece of work” or say “Just to recap for my notes, Bob is doing this, Jane is doing that, and I’m responsible for x task. Is this correct?”

      Also, if management doesn’t curb this, try to unemotionally bring up this issue with your supervisor or consider a new job/transfer because of the toxic culture.

  19. springtime :

    I just wanted to update the hive on my situation from the past weekend. I wrote a post on being sad about losing another prospect when I asked “do you see some sort of dating potential” question.

    I haven’t heard from the other guy (not shocking). I had my third date with the other guy I was seeing last night. AMAZING. Night and day from the other guy. I feel no need to ask him how things are going because he makes it clear by calling, taking me to fun places, being respectful, and also by having amazing chemistry that he is into me and wants to see me again.

    Just thought I would post for the ladies out there struggling to find a nice guy- when you find a good one, it’s so easy, and I am not self-conscious/worried he will stop talking to me at all because he’s shown that he cares.

    Here’s hoping I didn’t jinx it hehehe.

    • Aww, yay you (and new guy, too)! Enjoy yourselves :)

    • Yay! It’s all about the connection, if it works, it works. Enjoy!

    • This is exactly how it was when I first started dating DH. My entire experience with dating prior to him was wondering what was going on with the other person — was he going to call? does he like me? what’s going on? And then I met DH and it all clicked. He asked me out for a second date before our first date was even over, and after that he was always in touch via email, text, calling, whatever. I never once had to guess what was going on with him. SO refreshing!

  20. springtime :

    *sorry- too many ‘other guy’ comments in there. There are two men I’m talking about, if it isn’t clear!

  21. We’ve had some conversations about this recently, but wanted to ask. I bought a Kate Spade tote with handles that are too short to go over the shoulder this winter. I love how it looks and especially love how it’s organized, with the center zip pocket, but feel like I’ve been slowly adjusting to not having a shoulder bag. Thinking about buying the portola valley quinn for spring/summer from the sale section of the Kate Spade site. Any thoughts? It looks like it’s about the size of the one I have. Has anyone seen it in person? I might check at the Kate Spade store in Boston this weekend.

    • This is a total tangent, but I have to share. It cracks me up that Kate Spade has named a fancy handbag after the town of Portola, CA. It is clear that no one from KS actually visited it as it is a tiny, impoverished, dying timber town. The bag is gorgeous (I have had my eye on it too) but the fact that its so inaccurately named makes me laugh.

      • I have also wondered where they get those names. My current tote is the Fox Chapel Shari. Fox Chapel is a suburb of Pittsburgh. Strange. Weird about Portola. If I actually lay hands/eyes on the bag tomorrow, I’ll report back!

        • I have to assume the bag is named after Portola *Valley*, CA – a very wealthy suburb in the Bay Area near Palo Alto.

      • That’s because she named it after Portola Valley, which is a super-tony town in Silicon Valley, just next to Palo Alto, Los Altos Hills and Woodside. It’s all multimillion dollar houses on windy roads, many canyons, beautiful oak trees. It was no mistake.

      • Just got back from Newbury St. I stopped in at the Kate Spade store. They said they had never gotten the Quinn but they showed me one that’s very similar and it was a great style. The only problem with it was that it had narrow flat handles that I think would be uncomfortable. They said that the Quinn has the more tubular handles like mine. Might have to order it…

  22. I was just turned down for a really fantastic job. It was a question of experience, as I am very young and was very flattered that they considered me as seriously as they did (I didn’t think I would be even applying for this level of position for at least 5 more years). I think that the person I interviewed with (multiple times) could be a really wonderful contact going forward, either as a mentor or as a contact for future positions. Is it possible to build that connection, and if so, how? Would it be weird if I sent a request on linkedin with a note expressing my appreciation for being considered for the position? If I let it go for now I expect I will run into several of the people I met while interviewing at conferences in the next year or so, so this won’t be my only opportunity to foster the connection.

    • go for it! :

      I think LinkedIn is appropriate. I just went through a similar situation, and got the feeling that if they are looking for another person in my field in another year, they would give me a call. So, I would definitely connect with them via LinkedIn, and maybe send them a note before the conferences to say that you’ll see them there/drop by the panel/booth, maybe try to grab drinks while you’re all in town together, etc.

    • Absolutely, connect with him/her on LinkedIn. I know in these threads there are occasionally naysayers who say you should only connect with people you’d endorse or know really well or gave birth to on LinkedIn, but I think for most of us LinkedIn is like our rolodex – just professional contacts and nothing more.

    • LinkedIn is a great way to followup. Definitely indicate your appreciation and something along the lines that you’d be interested in similar opportunities and would appreciate any suggestions for getting x experience.

  23. For those of you who were posting about Anne of Green Gables in this morning’s thread:

    Could you please post a link to the specific DVD or DVD set you like? There are lots of choices on amazon. It seems like something my 11 year old daughter would really like to watch with me, but I’ve never seen or read it, so I would appreciate your recommendations.


    • same as Merabella, below. The ones I watched had Colleen Dewhurst in them http://tinyurl.com/8x75g8m Now we can start using Anne-isms….”depths of despair” “kindred spirits”… I could go on!

      • Thank you- that’s the one I was looking at but Amazon’s description doesn’t say PBS, 1995 or 1997. I’m glad to know this is the one!

        My daughter is going to be really excited. :)

      • Ha! I have always used those phrases (got them from my mom!) but somehow I never read Anne of Green Gables as a child. She finally unearthed her copy and gave it to me – so funny to know that’s where she picked them up!

      • I love “depths of despair.” Also, “my life is a perfect graveyard of buried hopes.” It makes me so happy that there are other Anne enthusiasts here :)

    • The CBC / PBS miniseries. Anne of GG from 1985 and the sequel Anne of Avonlea from 1987.

      • My middle school best friend and I watched my parents’ video of this so much that the tape wore out. We had it memorized and would often recite entire scenes. We had arguments about who got to play Anne.

        Mind you, that was also about the time we dressed up as Tommy and Tuppence for Hallowe’en. No-one knew who we were.

      • FYI for nit-pickers – the Anne of Avonlea movie is not true to the book. It’s kind of a mash-up of several later books in the series. That’s not to say that it’s not good – just if you are looking for a really faithful adaptation of the one book, this is not it.

    • manomanon :

      That set is fabulous!!
      Can we say tragical too? I still say that all the time and it drives my dad batty!

    • So… are you guys all gleeful that there will be a new 11 year old inducted into the Anne club?

      That’s how I would be, or rather that’s how I AM when I turn people onto things like Downton Abbey (three so far.)

      • YES!!! And we can all be bosom buddies!

      • goirishkj :

        YES! My alternate life job is as a children’s librarian. My husband insists that it would be a let down since I couldn’t just give everyone the Anne books. I disagree :)

        • My dad is a librarian — he spends a lot of his time signing people into and out of the computers, FYI. And you have to get an additional master’s degree. :-P

          • anon for this :

            And there could be librarians lurking here on Corporette! Except we’re nothing like children’s librarians.

          • Leslie Knope :

            Anon for this, there totally *are* librarians lurking here! I’m in my second-to-last semester of my MLIS and work in an academic library :)

          • anon for this :

            That’s great! I’m an academic library administrator.

          • Oh I know, I don’t want to go back to school :) It is one of those fantasies I have, like working at a tiki bar on a beach or something like that.

      • In House Counsel :

        LOVE IT! Hope your daughter enjoys it Mamabear!

        Funny backstory–> I was assigned to read the book in 5th grade — hated it and basically read 1/4 of the book and wrote a shitty book report. End of the year our English teacher showed us this movie (Colleen Dewhurst version) and I was captivated. Then went back and read the AofGG book that summer, then the rest of the series and finally branched out into other LLM books:) Now I am hoping to have a little girl someday so I can share this series (and the Betsy-Tacy series) with her!

        • That’s so funny because it’s exactly how I got into them. I hated it the first time I picked it up (I got lost somewhere halfway in Anne’s monologue when Matthew drives her to Green Gables from the train station for the first time). But then I read an excerpt in a middle school anthology about Anne cracking her slate over Gilbert’s head and had to go back and read the entire thing. :) At this point, almost 20 years later, I’ve gone through at least five copies of the book. I remember up until I finished completely with school (college, law school, the whole thing) — which wasn’t that long ago at all — I used to read the chapter about when Anne finally returns back to school after her brief hiatus. Used to make me look forward to the coming school year.

        • Love the Betsy-Tacy series! So glad to see someone else here has read it!

          • Lynnet–love, love. And they just reissued a full set of paperbacks…check out Bas Bleu (a reader’s mail-order catalog of fab books, which also has a website) for more details.

  24. My old cheap-o laptop bag has finally seen the last of its days. Anyone have any recs for a tote-style, cute but professional bag under $150? Preferably one whose straps aren’t going to give out when I’m carrying 10 lbs. of stuff.

    • I am a banana. :

      I think Kat featured Lo and Sons on here a while back (I don’t know where else I would have heard of them). I bought the OMG bag recently and I really love it.

      • I am a banana. :

        (They frequently have coupons and discounts, so if you follow them for a while it will be in your price range.)

    • Lo & Sons!!! Kat has plugged them here a few times, but I have the one that fits a 13″ laptop. I bought it on sale and I love it! I’d killed the handles on both a $30 Target tote and a $300 Hobo tote before I bought this one, and it’s going strong, looks great, etc. Plus, they have great customer service and are a little mom and sons shop, which is cute.

      • It is rather late in the day, to be commenting on this, but just wanted to say I fell in love with the T&T (which fits my 13″ laptop) and had a friend carry one down on her way home from the US. I love, love love it.

        Its easily the most expensive bag I own, but incredible. And it was a present to myself for something work related!

  25. Merabella :

    Anne of Green Gables (1985) and Anne of Avonlea (1987) are the ones we watched when I was a kid. There is a black and white one that isn’t bad, and is only like 80 minutes, but the 2 miniseries are about 3 hours or so each. I love love love them, and my sister and I used to play dress up and watch them.

    • Merabella :

      Sorry that was a reply to Mamabear

      • Thanks! Are Anne of Green Gables and Anne of Avonlea sequential, then?

        • Merabella :

          Yes. Anne of Avonlea picks up about a year after the end of Anne of Green Gables. Gilbert Blythe by the way was my celebrity crush for about a decade (and may still be secretly).

          • How did I forget about Gilbert Blythe until just this moment?

            I loved the books and the miniseries so much (and am happy and proud that my puff sleeved shirt comment spurred this discussion today)

          • I may or may not have married my husband solely because he reminds me of Gilbert Blythe. And it’s working out for me so far.

  26. To “cc” and “communications failure” — I responded in yesterday morning’s thread.

  27. I really love those sunglasses. I’ve never bought sunglasses online nor have I bought from that website. Thoughts on their return policy?

  28. Barrister in the Bayou :

    I don’t have anyone else to share this joy with me: I just got an email confirming the shipment of my Hunger Games nail polishes! I may have gone a little overboard, but I purchased the entire set!!!

    I cannot wait until they get here and will be giving myself a fancy a$$ manicure when they get here!

    FWIW, I am not 13 years old!

    • I bought my tickets the day they went on sale…

      I volunteer!

    • Newly nail-obsessed :

      I share your glee!

      In fact, I am wearing “Foie Gras” today (thank you, Hot Topic pre-order) – I put it on as soon as I got it last night. All day today, it has made me irrationally happy. :)

    • …and now I have something new to Google. Way more fun than working.

    • Okay — Hunger Games nail polish? Isn’t that book about kids fighting to the death? Is the nail polish colors like blood red and mucus yellow and stuff? :-)

      • Barrister in the Bayou :

        Okay TCFKAG, I think we’re definitely going to be pals! The colors are supposed to be inspired by the Capitol. However, true geeks will really know that the colors are really inspired by the characters!

    • AnonInfinity :

      OMG! I’ve been swooning and dying to try some of those in person. Let us know your favs!

    • You must WEAR ALL THE COLORS at one time in true Corporette style.

    • West Coast 3L :

      So jealous! Where did you order from? I haven’t been able to find them online yet.

      • They’ve been on Hot Topic (pre-order) for a while, but they’re on Ulta.com now.

      • Barrister in the Bayou :


        I’ll post a review once I receive them.

    • Anonymous :

      I have riveting and luxe and lush on my toes and Argo on my fingers… I’m interviewing interns tomorrow but couldn’t resist…

  29. Does anyone know a good resource for learning Access?

    • Ha. A friendly person who is a whizz. Went to a 3-day course once, still found it mysterious and frustrating.

  30. Frustrated Academic :

    Hey Maine Corporettes–any suggestios for a band for my wedding reception this fall (just learned that The Bob Charest Band is booked!!)? Thanks!!

  31. *Bunkster*, the Crayola hair stuff — did you buy it in a store? My niece’s 9th birthday is on Sunday and she would love that. Also for those without kids, apparently Shoulder Buddies are popular with that age group.

    • Yup. I bought the original set at RiteAid.

      • Thank you!

      • Just googled. It looks like you can get it at Walmart, too.

        • Thank you for googling that for me. I might have to head out to the walmarts…

          PS – drugstores have the most random, cool things sometimes.

          • Agree. I love to walk all the aisles of a big drugstore. That’s where I buy all my stocking stuffers at Christmas, too.

  32. Definitely cannot wait til Spring too. I love the shades! Can’t wait to wear shades again.

    – xoxo

  33. Apartment girl :

    I just signed a lease on my first “real” apartment :)

  34. Ladies, I need help with a weird anxiety of mine. My student comment is about to be published in my journal and I don’t feel confident in its quality. The writing and research is fine, but I’m not confident in the broader argument I made in the piece. I can’t pull out now and it’s too late to change anything major. Maybe I’m crazy and its fine, maybe it isn’t, I don’t know. My adviser turned out to know very little about the topic and was not very helpful. My journal is not the school’s main journal, so hopefully no one will read it. But it’s on a topic connected to what I will be doing after graduation, so I’m afraid someone will unearth it five years from now and think (realize?) that I’m an idiot. Sigh.

    Does anyone have wisdom to share?

    • If your article is interesting enough that a busy attorney will read it, consider it a success :-)

      More seriously, I think most people realize that opinions can change over time and that an argument in a comment from law school does not define a person. I’d give points to anyone who had shown serious interest in the field while in law school. If you are interviewing for a position one day and you’ve decided that you disagree with your former self, prepare an answer about how your post-law school experiences informed your new opinion.

    • Oh dear. If you google me diligently enough, you can still find (a) a few essays I wrote for a college class and (b) an essay I wrote for a scholarship as a senior in high school that then got published in the paper (I knew it as asinine even when I was 17…)

      I realize this is slightly higher stakes, but seriously, unless you run for Congress or are nominated to a Court the chances of someone unearthing a random note you wrote as a student (and worst caring about it) is slim to none.

      • This. I don’t know anyone outside of academia who would actually read one of those. Although I do remember mercilessly mocking a random douche-canoe of an attorney who quoted his own note in a letter he wrote to one of the attorneys in my firm. Man, I wish I had saved that, it was comedy gold (for us law-yuh nerds anyway!)

    • THANK YOU! That’s what I need to hear. Everyone within the bubble of law school makes such a Big Deal about getting published. Thanks for the dose of reality!!

      • 3L, congratulations on getting published! As someone about to enter academia, let me tell you that the feeling you describe never goes away, at least for those of us who are prone to self-doubt. I still feel anxious about anything that’s going to be in print. But at the same time, few things are as rewarding to me as getting the re-prints of my article (I don’t open them though, after I spotted two errors when glancing at a re-print of my first article for about a second– I’m not kidding!).

        So if your article isn’t final yet, do what you can do to make sure it is the best work you can write at this time within the confines of a student note. Then, let it go, and be proud of what you have accomplished!

      • I should add: when I was in practice, partners liked that I had published in the field I was working in (and one partner even sent re-prints to clients and others in the field). I don’t think any of them actually read my note in any amount of detail. Even in interviews for academic positions, few people care about my student note as by now it’s been a few years.

        This said, I once worked on a case where opposing counsel had basically argued our position in an article ten years earlier. The argument was somewhat creative, and during oral argument, he said that it was a great proposal but that the law was not on our side.

    • I wrote about a topic in my field and no one, I mean no one has ever (and I think will ever) read it.

    • Anonymous :

      If it’s any consolation, I was a Note/Comment editor on the ed board of my law review, and there are plenty of things that get through where the argument is pretty debatable.

    • Ekaterin Nile :

      I published an article in 2005 in the field in which I practice. It has never come up in my practice. I would absolutely not worry about it unless you get nominated to a federal judgeship and you took some incredibly controversial position in your article that could be used against you. :-)

  35. petite atty :

    First time commenter, longtime reader.

    How much time (if any) do you spend with co-workers outside the office? I find that my co-workers tend to be social outside of work. Personally, I prefer work-social life separation. I have people I am friendly with at work, but for me, non-working hours are confined to “real life” friends and family. I am starting to worry that I am being seen as anti-social and that it’s hurting my reputation at work. I’d love any advice you all have about how to navigate this.

    • My office is the opposite, I wish it was a little more social. I think you need to be in the middle. When you say you prefer work-social life seperation (and put real life in quotes), you are drawing a line in the sand that no one can cross, and that does come off as anti-social. It is possible that someone in your work could be a real true life friend to you. It is also possible that no one will be, but when you draw a line like that, yeah it is a little anti-social. Because your saying, no thanks, I don’t even want to take the chance.

      So I’d aim to see them sometimes but not all the time. If they go once a week, try to go to a 6-8 happy hour about once every 1.5 months or so. It is not that much time and its worth it to send the right message

    • Woods-comma-Elle :

      Hardly any, to be honest. Know your office, of course, but some are more social than others.

      I’m in a small team in a large department and my team is sometimes social with the occasional after work drink, but it tends to be ad hoc. The associates who are not in my team do stuff quite a lot (not all, but there is a ‘core group’). Apparently I’m not one of the ‘popular kids’ and find out afterwards that everyone went out together and nobody thought to invite me.

      Recently, a large group of the other associates in the department went on some mysterious dinner and when someone was like ‘oh I’m going to dinner with… some people’ in an awkward way, the cause of which was later confirmed to be that I had not been invited to said dinner, at first my reaction was ‘Oh man, everyone hates me’ but then I moved on to ‘Wow, are we 13 years old?’ and eventually I realised it doesn’t matter. I’m not good friends with any of them, and I don’t think I would outside of work be friends with the types of people who behave in this manner in a professional setting.

      This is not to say there isn’t a time and a place for socialising with colleagues and it’s important for team bonding and internal networking and stuff and for raising your profile, so I make a point to go to firm/department drinks events etc. when I can. I get on really well with the people in my team and have a good reputation among the partners (I can’t speak for the other associates). However, I only have two people I would class as friends at work (500+ firm). These are people whom I see regularly during scheduled social events outside of work. Quality over quantity, in this case.

      Personally, this works for me, but different offices would vary, I’m sure, on how much importance is placed on this. You don’t want to be the person who never goes to anything, but in most workplaces, I don’t think it’s necessary to be the person who always goes to everything, either.

      Ok, now I’ve re-read that, I wonder if I should be worried…

      • Elle, whenever I read your posts I think that I used to work for the same firm as you in London. Of course there are probably lots of firms there that share a variety of characteristics, but…

        • Woods-comma-Elle :

          Oh it’s possible, I would tell you if it didn’t involve potentially outing myself to the entire Corporette community…

          I’m a few years older than the people in my year and many of the people a few years ahead, so maybe I never got the memo that BigLaw is just like high school…

    • locomotive :

      About what age range are your co-workers in? This probably changes it a lot. I am in a very young trading firm where people socialize a lot outside of work and the line between ‘friend’ and ‘co-worker’ seems pretty blurry to me sometimes. This is also probably because we spend so much time at work that I honestly haven’t been able to make any friends elsewhere. Sad, but true.

      Perhaps you could choose some key socializing events to show up to? Make your appearance ‘time-efficient’ by limiting how long you chat with people and making sure you chat with a certain number. Maybe have a goal of 1 event per two weeks or three weeks – I’m not sure what kind of frequency your co-workers socialize with. This might sound kind of ridiculous but it’s what I do for networking because networking makes me really nervous! I set a goal for how many people I’ll talk to and try to work towards it.

    • It really depends. I’m with cc on this one, I wish my office was a little more social. My other office fluctuated because it was such a revolving door I think I was one of Woods-comma-Elle’s “cool kids” just because I was always the one trying to get stuff going. But I invited everyone!! But there were a lot of people around my age. As they started getting married, having kids, the social time dropped dramatically and then there were little cliques. Now, everyone here is so different, in ages, where they live, experience, etc… There so far have not really been any social events other than a monthly lunch potluck. Ahh well.

    • Another Zumba Fan :

      I don’t want to see my co-workers outside of work, so I don’t. I keep work and personal life separate. I don’t see it as being anti-social and don’t care if they do.

    • My co-workers are only semi-social. Most people eat lunch alone. We do big group events every couple of months such as happy hours or games of volleyball etc, and I attend most of those events in an effort to get to know people. I’m glad I have. It’s nice to be friendly with people. I invited a co-worker to dinner and a panel discussion about our industry and it was a delightful experience. She really opened up outside the office, and it made me realize we could actually become legit friends beyond the office. I read recently that people who have a close friend at work are seven times more likely to be happy at their job. So I think I’m going to be even more open-minded about befriending people rather than holding them at a distance or worrying about drama that might pop up.

    • I love the weekend thread. I have a group of co-workers (4-5) and we regularly go out for Friday happy hour drinks. In fact, one of the guys circles by our desk around 4:30 pm checking who wants to join and that basically marks start of the weekend. We are all the same age group (25-30) and about same level in the organization though we work for different groups. There is no pressure to come out every time, but weekends when I have no particular plan it helps to unwind with familiar people. I won’t say they are my very close friends but I do enjoy/tolerate their company after a long week at work. They are all guys and one other female, so I do like not having to deal with complex female friends drama. Our group is tight knit, composed of people we know have the same attitude/level of skepticism towards their jobs and like to have a good time. So I think it is possible to be social with co-workers outside work, but it really depends on the group/people and whether they “click”. Otherwise, I will keep it to once every 1.5 month, stay for 1-2 rounds and take off early.

    • lucy stone :

      I work for a local government and about 15-20 of us have starting hanging out one night a month outside of work. Last month we went for pizza and this month we’re going bowling. I never judge anyone who doesn’t come – people have families and other commitments.

    • Anonymous :

      I am an alcoholic so I don’t go out with my co-workers except maybe once every six months. I will go out for an hour to celebrate a big win, or to say good-bye to a co-worker. However, we also tend to travel a lot and we can be out of town together for a week or more. One of our colleagues NEVER ate dinner with the group and that was a problem because she missed out on work and strategy discussions. That is my two cents.

  36. This is kind of a carry-over from the previous news thread on caphillstyle’s suggestion about talking to younger women about their dress code by praising her and doing it in a non-threatening fashion- does anyone have a boss that employs the same style of discussion all the time when trying to make a suggestion? Whenever my supervisor tells me I made a mistake, it’s always prefaced by some long-winded reassurance that it isn’t a big deal, as if I am just going to burst into tears at any second.

    By the time she actually reaches discussing the problem, she will often gloss over it. The last time she did this, I had no clue why what I did was wrong. Luckily I met with a friend shortly thereafter who had recently made the same mistake and could explain it to me. It was actually something that was very important for me to learn. I asked other coworkers if they knew about it and they didn’t know either. It just seems strange to me that someone would worry so much about hurting a person’s feelings that they’d rather her make the same mistake again with more dire consequences.

    • MelD, maybe your supervisor is new at this? I’ve been in a law firm for a few years, and I still struggle with telling paralegals or my assistant that they made a mistake. I try to be straightforward and direct, but it is not something that comes naturally to me–especially when the mistake is repeated and I thought I had been clear on it the first time. I really struggle with how to tell people above me when they have made a mistake, but I’m working on that.

  37. needing wardrobe assistance please… on 3/12, I am attending a small evening benefit (200 people max) for a theater company but it’s a group I’ve worked with for a while wherein one of the co-founders and I share a birthday that is only a few days after so that may come up and where they know I’m leaving soon after which will come up as well… so it’s a benefit/birthday/going away shindig full of folks I know and where the attire, according to the invitation, is “festive.” As most of you know, my budget is limited and I don’t really own much to just throw on as if I don’t have a care in the world lol

    • Where is the event being held?

    • Also, what size are you?

      • event being held at a restaurant/grille, I’m a very pear shaped size 8

        • Maybe something like this http://www.target.com/p/Merona-Womens-Trapunto-Dress-Assorted-Colors/-/A-13931481#?lnk=sc_qi_detaillink which is a little shiny and you can dress it up with a bolero and heels (and any shiny accessories you have) but it will also serve you in your new life in Miami and it’s easy to pack :)

          • I think this is perfect! Unless you are going to a benefit for the Roundabout or The Public, chances are there will be a wide range of styles at the event, and much of it casual. Most theatre folks don’t have any money to spend on clothes (I can say it cause I’ve lived it.) People tend to wear all black at these things (even just a black t-shirt and pants) or unique thrift store dresses picked up on the cheap.

          • Betts and K, I have that dress in black, and it is a workhorse! Works on every occasion, and it has served me well in Miami, too :)

        • What about this dress or something else from Bluefly:

          Bluefly is having huge sales right now.

          • Ok, now I just looked at Bunkster’s choice and I love that, too. What an amazing price for a timeless LBD! Why not do it up for your big night by wearing that and pairing it with some fun bright colored tights? Fuchsia would be my choice! That would make the look more festive and add flair to match the crowd.

          • Pretty but I think K has said in past conversations that she can’t wear shift dresses. She may need something with a fuller skirt. But wow, what a great price!

          • have yet to find a shift dress that fits right for someone pretty majorly pearshaped but will browse their sales and see what’s there… :) (PS NOLA, your memory is amazing!)

          • It’s amazing that I have such a great memory for some things but none at all when it comes to remembering that thing that was supposed to go on my shopping list (think of it in the shower – gone by the time I get out).

            Macy’s is having a one-day sale tomorrow. I looked at their website and they actually have some party dresses for under $50. Might take some trying on to find something that doesn’t look too young, but it’d be worth a try.

          • There is also a bluefly living social (or groupon? i think living social) right now – that’s how i scored the best deals. I feel like the retail version of extreme couponing sometimes, but oh well.

  38. MD/DC observer :

    (Kat and everyone else, Enormous apologies if this ends up posting twice. I hit “submit” the first time around but nothing seemed to happen. –MD/DC observer

    A small bit of advice and a lot of sympathy because I’ve also had times of being really discouraged on the job. (FYI I’m neither an accountant nor a lawyer.)

    You sound burned out. For now, you may have to grit your teeth and suck it up through the rest of tax season. Take care of yourself as well as you can and don’t beat yourself up if you have cereal and an apple for dinner or your only exercise comes from parking in the furthest corner of the company or commuter lot/garage. Find joy in the little things—a flowering plant in your windowsill, the sight of children on a playground—and tell yourself that this is just one phase of your life journey.

    Once you’re no longer feeling as though your shock absorbers have been permanently smashed, start making a plan to change your life in ways that will make you happier. The best and worst parts about this are the same thing, that only you can really define which things to change: Same profession, different setting? Different profession? Different city? Etc. Other accountants have suggested moving into industry, which could be very interesting. Or, what about moving to a (financially solid) nonprofit organization? They come in all flavors, from matter-of-fact trade associations to specialized medical support groups to supercharged political/policy advocates. Pick one that’s a good fit for you.

    The good news is that you’ve already proved that you know how to study, work hard, and accomplish your goals. You also have a steady job—admittedly, the reason for your current unhappiness but also, especially in this economy, a source of financial stability while you plan your next steps. Try to enjoy the process of absorbing new information and ideas. Volunteer for a cause that interests you, go to a professional meeting in your field or a field you’d like to explore, read about any fields that interest you, network, or just chat with random friendly strangers. (I’m not saying to strike up a conversation regardless of your personal safety, but I’m a Midwesterner by birth and thus usually happy to chat with friendly-looking strangers on the Metro or the sidewalk. I’m also middle-aged, a bit overweight, sigh, and gray-haired so it should be clear that I’m not hitting on anyone! ;-) )

    Good luck, and please keep the hive posted when you find some of your answers. We all learn from each other here.

  39. Shoeless Gal :

    Can anyone recommend a really great pair of commuting shoes? I walk approximately 3 miles roundtrip every day, and walking into my firm wearing sneakers is kind of embarrassing.

  40. Big Law Windy City :

    Can anyone weigh in on the look of an untucked button down with a suit?

    I’m in big law on the business services side and had always tucked. But this evening at Brooks Brothers the sales person said I’m doing it wrong and should let it hang out.


    • My only thought is, no. My reference point is San Francisco biglaw.

      • Agree. It’s hard to picture this not looking sloppy. I find this advice especially odd in light of how blousy all of my BB button downs are; maybe this look would work with something really slim and tidy but if I saw it I would probably think the shirt came untucked by accident.

    • I would not leave a shirt untucked with a suit. Maybe a more casual outfit, but even then, it depends on the type of hem. Full disclosure, I am a tucker and come from a long line of tuckers!

    • I think it depends on the particular button down. Some (the kind that are curved in front and back and shorter on the side) are designed to be tucked; others (usually straight across on front and back and maybe with a small slit on the sides) are designed to be untucked. I think it looks sloppy when people wear the former untucked, and I also think it looks sloppy if the untucked shirt is longer than the jacket.

    • SALit-a-gator :

      I almost always tuck a button-down with a suit, and my rule of thumb is this: if the jacket is shorter the the shirt un-tucked, then I’m tucking. I think the shirt should not be longer than the jacket (sounds easy, but there are lots of cropped jackets around now). Point of reference: southern mid-law.

  41. An older man who was acting as something of a professional mentor to me crossed a line a few weeks ago. The possibility exists that his actions were innocently intended (he didn’t proposition me or anything that direct); however, he put my reputation in jeopardy and upset me immensely. As a result, I’ve cut all contact with him.

    The catch: I was in the process of seeking a position with his organization when all of this happened. He recently forwarded the contact information for someone else inside the organization who has indicated that he’d be willing to meet with me to discuss the position (at my former contact’s request). On one hand, I feel icky using anything connected with this man; on the other, it seems silly to pass up an opportunity to get a (rare) inside look at the position. I’m undecided on the position for a variety of reasons, not all of which are connected to the ickiness. I feel stuck.

    I’m not entirely sure what sort of advice I’m seeking here, so any and all is welcome :) Thanks, ladies.

    • Without more details, its almost impossible to give good advice here. For example, it probably depends on the nature of the line crossed by the mentor. It would also depend on the size of the organization, what role the person you’d be talking with is in in relation to the former mentor, and whether the former mentor would be your supervisor at the new position.

      But, without any of those details, my only advice would be this — you should look out for YOU. If this position would be good for you, then you should go after it. You shouldn’t let the inappropriate actions of mentor-man keep you from pursuing that.

    • OK, I’ve had something like this happen to me.

      I say pursue the Contact (someone else whose contact information you do have). Drop Creep’s name when you contact Contact. Creep might have a reputation for being a Creep. Don’t let that stop you. When Contact asks how you know Creep, be honest but not overly forthcoming. If Contact asks you about Creep’s recent activities, say “You know, I actually haven’t been in contact with him lately.” And leave it at that.

      If Creep contacts you by phone, don’t pick up. If Creep visits you in person, that’s just creepy but be sure to put physical distance between you, have a witness, etc. If Creep emails you, don’t respond. If it’s something you need to respond to, give a minimal, yet professional, response.

      Start putting distance between yourself and Creep. Deal directly with Contact.

      Most of all, don’t blame yourself for Creep’s behavior. Yes, you might have unintentionally encouraged him but, as the more senior person, it was Creep’s duty to not be creepy.

      • Thanks TCFKAG and karenpadi, both for the advice and the reassurance that this isn’t my fault. (And my apologies for the vaugeness.)

        The whole thing has left me pretty gun-shy about male mentors (which are, unfortunately, given my field and track, pretty much the only people available as mentors), but it’s time to get back to thinking about my career and not worrying that anyone I speak to is going to follow up by hitting on me. My feelings about this job are…complicated, but knowing that it’s okay to talk to Contact helps. Thanks again, ladies!

  42. unhappy lawyer :

    Dear Corporettes, I desperately need some advice. I work in a two-person law firm that consists of my boss and myself. Over the last few months, I’ve come to realize that my boss is a miserable being. Her mood of the day/hour depends on how her relationship with her beau is going. I find her to be extremely unapproachable and just not a nice person to be around. If I make a mistake, instead of construction criticism, I get documents thrown on my desk and a comment on how I need to “figure out what the problem is and fix it.”

    I get paid approx $12/hour to do the majority of the work while she’s out shopping and getting her nails done. But at the same time, she limits what she teaches me (I think out of fear that I’d learn too much and go out and start my own practice). Now I realize I didn’t have to take the job, but with the state of the job market, I felt I had no choice.

    Does anyone have any suggestions on how to deal with this? I dread going to work every day… I want to cry as soon as I get out of the office. I breathe a sigh of relief if she steps out for lunch because I can relax and actually get work done. I live in constant fear of making even a small typo because I know the reaction I’ll get. The bizarre thing is… she thinks we are friends and constantly confides in me about personal issues… a lot of times, I can’t even concentrate on my work because she’s going on about some personal issue. But then five minutes later, it is back to the superior boss/lowly employee dynamic. I honestly don’t know what to do. I dream about resigning and walking out but cannot financially do it. Although, at this rate, waitressing and working retail sound like better options than continuing here. Please help me.

    • I also work at a two-attorney firm. Although I do not have the same problems as you, I also sometimes feel like you do. I stuck it out with my boss for three years before I started looking for a new job, and now I am starting my new job next month (unfortunately, it took me almost 10 months to find another job). I completely understand the lowly employee/superior boss dynamic. My boss has made negative comments about young attorneys in my presence; called us lazy as a group; for the last four years he has beckoned me into his office by calling me loudly from his (regardless if I’m on the phone, etc.). I finally couldn’t take it any more. I don’t know how long you’ve been at your job, but once you have some experience under your belt (at least a year), it will be easier to find another one. It never hurts to put your resume out there and see what happens!

    • It sounds like it’s a vicious cycle with your boss. You never know which personality you’re going to get — one second she is sweet and the other second she’s mean (like that sour patch kids commercial). And then she confides in you about personal stuff like you are buds; seems like that’s her way of trying to control/manipulate you (and from your post, she is like that in her personal relationship with her boyfriend). Make sure you are getting some sunlight (wearing SPF of course), get some exercise or do something to boost your heart rate, take a daily multivitamin/vitamin supplements, get good sleep, get a pedicure/manicure or whatever is relaxing to you, and cuddle with a puppy. Oh, watch some trashy TV (it makes me feel better about myself – ha!). Network the heck out of your contacts — don’t be shy! E-mail them, set up lunch dates for this week/month, join some industry groups (even if it’s like a Women in Technology sort of thing – they take non-techie people). You probably wouldn’t do this, but don’t badmouth your boss – just say “it’s not the opportunity I thought it would be. I’d hoped to be doing more of x, y, and z and I’d like to get more experience in my field.”

  43. Professor? :

    Any college professors out there? I’m a 3rd year in regional biglaw, experiencing all the typical burn-out issues (if you read this blog, I’m sure you’re already familiar with the symtoms). I have an opportunity to be college prof at the local university–not a law prof, but a prof in the field that I practice in (a mix of engineering and business). It would initially be a large pay cut, and I’d be giving up the uncertain but potentially large future payoff of one day becoming an equity partner in my big regional firm. I’d be taking the job for quality-of-life reasons, not the money. And I don’t think it would be easy to go back to my firm or another “peer firm” if I change my mind in a few years.

    I’m curious to hear from any college professors out there—is the job as good as it sounds, lifestyle wise? I’d hate to take a job for lifestyle reasons only to find myself in another stressful situation, but not as well-compensated for it. FYI, my position would be 3/4 of the year and have no research requirements.

    Also, I know some of my professors in undergrad and law school had consulting practices on the side–are there any corporette profs out there who consult on the side? How does that add to your stress levels?

    • I think it largely depends on the institution… and you. My SO is a college professor and he is one of the most dedicated, hard-working people I know. It would be relatively easy for him to “phone it in”, particularly with class prep for courses he’s taught before, and exam grading (i.e., he could easily do more multiple choice/fill-in-the-blank, etc.), but he regularly puts in 60-80 hour weeks because he is passionate about what he does. That said, he loves what he does. When I was putting in those hours (and more) at a biglaw firm… I was pretty miserable. So more than what anyone else can tell you, I think this is largely a “know yourself” type of situation. That said, it sounds like a great opportunity, and as someone who took a greater than 50% paycut for lifestyle reasons (and to work someplace where I actually care about the mission), I say go for it :-)

    • I’m not in a law-related area, but I am a college professor. I agree with the above comment that it’s a field where you might end up working a fair number of hours, but those hours are often dictated by your own desire to put that time in. Aside from needing to be there for my classes (9-12 hrs/week) and office hours (5 hrs/week) and committee work (varies, but maybe a couple of hours/week, on average), I just need to have a presence on campus. This means I’m in the office doing course prep or writing, but I decide my own schedule. Some days I’m done with classes at 11am and I can leave and take care of errands without running the idea by anyone. There aren’t any timesheets. However, I often end up working on weekends because I’ll get a great idea and not want to wait until Monday to follow through on it. I LOVE my job, so much. I love that everyone I work with is interested in learning more about the world, and that we get to share that.

      Having a 9 month contract is also pretty sweet. It’s true that you still end up working all through the year, but honestly, working from home in your pajamas, or planning a course while at the beach beats having to fight for your 2 weeks of vacation. Plus there’s spring break, fall break, holiday break, etc.

    • Not a lawyer, but a professor.

      I LOVE my job! As I was reading the stories of burn out upthread, I was feeling especially fortunate. Granted, I am at my computer on a sunny, balmy Sat. afternoon – but I’m working on a book chapter on a topic I find fascinating, based on my own research. I’d rather work extra hours doing what *I* want to do any day, over long hours to fulfill someone else’s designated task list.

      There’s certainly stress in academia: pressure to publish, heavy courseloads, inane service committees. But so much of the work can be scheduled to one’s own preferences (the joke is “you get to choose which ~60 (or more, in science)~ hours a week you work”). With no research requirements, you might not be as time pressed as some.

      I consulted some (not law or biz) in grad school, but found that I couldn’t continue during my early years as a prof. I suspect that once my teaching gets rolling smoothly and I have more pubs in the pipeline, I will be on the lookout for applied opportunities that will also add to the household bottomline. Or, maybe not. I’m a big fan of quality of life over compensation (as long as it’s above a living wage), and might just relish extra time to do things I love.

    • dancinglonghorn :

      I am a professor (in business). There are two types of “professors”:

      Tenure-track professors who have intense pressure to publish and get paid tons of money – this is me. We are treated like the all-star’s of the faculty, because we bring prestige and visibility to the school. They are what people think of as professors – they have offices, set their own hours, think about interesting questions all day.

      Then there are non-tenure track, lecturer positions. I’m guessing this is the type of job you have been offered, as tenure-track faculty positions are only available to those with a PhD at top-tier research schools (I don’t know anything about trade schools/community colleges/small, local universities – although my mom teaches night classes for paralegals at a trade school). Non-tenure track lecturers are second-class citizens. They get the crappiest teaching assignments – the worst students, the worst times, summer classes, the least-pleasant classes to teach. I teach 1 class – 2 sections per year. Lecturer’s teach 4 classes per semester. Lecturers are basically just higher-paid high school teachers. They are the first to get laid-off. They are treated as disposable by administrators. It will be initially a large pay cut for you – the pay will never increase if you become a lecturer (at least, I’ve never heard of it increasing). They only get pay cuts – never pay increases. They don’t get any of the sweet consulting or textbook deals either – you need a PhD for that.

      BUT although they are not the hot-shots of the university world, the lifestyle may still be better than the one you have now. I know many lecturers who have retired from the corporate world who are not dependent on the income and love the job of teaching. Also, most lecturers I know are not stressed out at all.

      I love my job. I love teaching. I am just laying it all out there so that you know what you are getting yourself into. At my top 20 university, the business lecturers are generally spouses of hot-shot tenured faculty.

      I don’t know anything about law consulting, only business consulting. Also, it will not be high-stress if you do not have a PhD/do research. You will only be teaching. Plus, no one will put stress on you because if you don’t perform, you will be easily replaced. So I don’t think that for lecturers, the stress is very high. (Certainly, its nowhere near as high as for tenure-track faculty)

      I really hope that this post will at least help you navigate the academic world a little bit and figure out if the position aligns with your expectations. I really think its a great lifestyle but most people don’t understand the differences between the two different types of “professors.”

      (FYI I’m a tenure track business faculty at a top 20 school who teaches MBA’s so my advice is really geared towards large universities. My understanding is that at small, regional schools, all the professors are lecturers, so I’m sure that the treatment is different.)

      • dancinglonghorn :

        Oh yeah, I generally work about 80 hours on a good week.

      • Smaller colleges also have tenure-track positions, where the emphasis is on teaching skill vs publications (and research with students). They are in no way all lecturers. Also larger R1 universities have started adding the occasional tenure-track non-research position, to deal with the issue of so many adjunct and TA taught classes. These positions don’t get the worst classes, but they do get the same ones over and over, and more general education ones.

    • Professor? – You didn’t indicate if this is a visiting professor position, a tenure-track position or some other type of contract. This is something that you should find out before you take the job.

      DancingLongHorn is talking about a whole different ball-game than your question but you need to know about the tenure-track system before taking a job in academe. Obviously, you don’t have a PhD but it is possible to be tenure-track or permanent without having a PhD. In some instances, a JD is considered equivalent to a PhD or it allows you to be considered to be “professionally qualified” by some accrediting agencies and/or schools.

      Generally, if you are going to be an “adjunct” you will have no career stability or long-term potential.

      In addition, you’ll need to find out if you’ll be expected to serve on committees like curriculum development: I doubt that will be the case but it’s possible. If you are not researching and publishing then yes, I do think you could consult on the side and it might be a nice compliment. As others said, you may end up working a lot of hours but you have more control over when and where you do that work. But be sure to find out if the school has a “face time” requirement, which would be unfortunate.

      A good place to ask these questions is the Forum of the Chronicle for Higher Ed www dot chronicle dot com / forums

      Good luck!

    • Professor? :

      OP here–thanks to all the folks who replied with imput. It’s nice to hear from folks who do the job to understand more about the day-to-day.

      To answer some of the questions above, it is a non-tenure track position, but it is also not an adjunct position (I already teach one class there for half the year as an adjunct prof, which is how I got considered for this FT position). I’d be hired in as an assistant professor, and then there’s promotions to assoc. and full professor after so many years, although the pay raises that go along with that are definitely not the kind you get, say, for making partner. The non-tenure track professors sit on all the same committees, have the same voting rights, etc. as the tenure track faculty. I’d have the same access to funding to attend conferences, etc. as the tenure track folks. Literally the only differences are 1) no tenure and 2) no research requirement. The position is in a small department in a very large state university. As I understand it, the program was docked points in some review because they were relying on too many adjunct profs to teach classes because the dept was so small–so they decided to create this position and get someone who can focus full-time on teaching several classes.

      The more I learn about the job the more I think it sounds right for me. Whether I take the job or not will probably come down to how much of a pay cut I can swallow! I will keep you posted…

  44. Skinny jeans for people with poochy tummies? I’ve never had a flat stomach, even when I was in marathon shape, and now I’m two years post-partum…blagh.

    I have some from Lands’ End Canvas that I like all right, but I saw raves on a previous comment thread for skinny jeans from Old Navy and I can’t remember whether people loved the Sweetheart or the Rock Star model. Trying not to spend a mint (less than $50) but am open to other brands. Thanks, ladies.

    • Not your daughters jeans denim leggings. Size down.

      • Anonymous NYer :

        Sweetheart fit has been great for me. I tend to be larger in the thigh/hip area than the waist though, so it may vary for you. I have a pair of michael kors skinnys I got from Macys (skinny in shape, but not tight, which is sometimes annoying for tighter boots) that fit remarkably well when I don’t wear tighter boots with them (they look great with flats). They seem to have a higher waist/rise, which it seems may be beneficial for you.

    • I have a poochy tummy and the sweatheart fit are great for me. Old Navy jeans vary greatly so make sure you actually try them on; often two identical pairs of jeans in the same size do not fit the same.

    • Sweetheart x100.

    • I have a similar body type and I have the JCrew Matchstick.

    • I have a poochy tummy and the Rock Star’s work well for me in the dark denim color. Tried them in the colored denim and the fabric was stiff and the fit not so good.

  45. jhbsunshine :

    Canadian ‘rettes! There’s a report in the Globe this morning that Nordstrom’s might take some stores Sears is closing…

    • Equity's Darling :

      That will be a ridiculous jump in quality….though apparently they’re only closing the “big” Sears stores (e.g. the one a Chinook in Calgary), which is prime real estate, so Nordstroms would probably be happy with the locations.

      My finglers are crossed.

    • Here’s hoping!

    • Oh, I am so excited about this. The only good thing about Sears these days is the Kenmore brand. Other than that, the Vancouver Sears can become a Nordstrom tomorrow as far as I am concerned (please please please)….

  46. I posted yesterday about my employee who quit with no notice and wanted to provide an update for TechAnon and the others who asked. First, I wanted to say – as always – you all are the best! It seems no matter what question I have where I think “I am certainly the only person in the world who has ever gone through this,” no, someone here has. So thank you. (I should have taken it as a sign when the first thing my SO said was “Did you ask Corporette what they think?”)

    I don’t want to go into too much detail, but this employee had been unhappy since reviews, didn’t like the direction things were going, and that morning we’d had a rather contentious project review that ended with this employee yelling “F**k this!” and storming out of the room. And the next thing I knew, I heard from HR there’d been an exit interview and termination paperwork had been signed. I’ve had some interesting employee exits, but never one where the last words are “F**k this!” I thought that only happened in tv shows! As far as addressing it with my team, it seems to be (1) a kick in the pants to everyone and (2) a new start that’s giving some of my other employees a chance to step up. So I think it will end up being a good thing – I’m just trying to separate out my professional feelings from my personal hurt feelings that this is someone I worked closely with for years and we went to each others’ weddings, etc, who couldn’t even face me to say “I quit.” I guess, much like my divorce, there are some questions that will never be answered!

    • You know, just because he left on bad terms with the company doesn’t mean you can’t shoot him a card or email and express some kind sentiments. I’d send him an email and tell him you’ve been thinking of him and hope everything is ok.

    • Anon for this :

      Is your organization going through major changes right now? I just ask because my employer is making some huge policy shifts in the midst of trying to complete a huge reorganization.

      Many people are extremely uncomfortable with the way things are going and one manager who spoke out about it last year got the axe. It was made clear that dissent was not acceptable. Since that time, you’re more likely to see people suddenly quitting because they can’t take it anymore, or speaking out and then resigning effective immediately. Most of these people are in managerial positions and have been with my employer for a long time. While I seriously doubt any of them went so far as your employee did, I think many people want to. People just feel so frustrated and helpless that they just can’t take it anymore.

    • Wow! Sounds like he is a person with poor boundaries and immature social skills. I understand why you’re feeling hurt. It’s really a sad situation for him, actually. Walking off a job in a big snit is kind of a Hollywood-fueled fantasy, but real life goes on after the credits roll. He’s now unemployed in a down economy, with a big bridge burned behind him. Unwise.

      I’ve seen several comment threads here that counsel unhappy ladies ready to walk off their jobs that they need to give reasonable notice, shake hands and smile, and NOT tell the truth during the exit interview. That’s how wise adults leave miserable jobs.

      (Not that working with you is miserable, but clearly he was unhappy!)

      I’m glad you think it will end up being a good thing for the office, though. Sometimes one miserably unhappy person can poison the well. Thanks for following up.

  47. Another Sarah :

    I need a bit of advice from the hive…

    So I was told at work that I need to take more of a “project management” approach to my assignments because I’m losing the bigger picture and micromanaging. I disagree (especially on the micromanaging part), but I’m willing to take a meaningful stab at it. As it was explained to me, there are some things that I do already and some things I honestly think would benefit me. But other parts seem completely inefficient, inflexible, and a waste of time (part of this is due to our office dynamics and how a “15 min. framing meeting” turns into a “90-min-hammer-out-the-details-now” meeting, which are the bains of my existence). Is there anything I can do to change my mindset? Any success stories with using this system?

    As background, I’m an attorney doing reg. affairs and marketing in an international corp (with crazy diva personalities, which is another post for another day). Any attorneys that take a project management approach or system that they like?

    • No ideas, but I hear stuff like this too. Me also attorney by background doing policy/strategy in big MNC. They always want more ‘integrated approach, progress to plan demonstrations, charts, tracking,’ etc.. no matter how much of that I are others try to do. I think it’s about visibility and demonstrating value to higher ups so preserve all of us. Also they are engineers by background, so to them phrases like ‘the data will set you free’ are the equivalent of a large piece of chocolate cake to 6-mo pregnant me. We recently had a dramatic reorg threatened then reversed, with these type of ideas being the stated reason. So, I have asked for more specifics and incorporated that feedback into my performance goals for this year. Still not sure what it all means but hey they are in charge and I know that.

      On PM, I have taken PM classes and if you haven’t, that will clue you into the very real methods they might be referring to- like legal terms of art, there’s a whole system of PM out there. But it doesn’t all apply well to the stuff we do, my view.

      In terms of the meetings culture, that’s a huge problem at my company too in its own ways- just too many of them with spotty attendance because there are too many. But some of this must be accepted as there is only so much you can do to challlenge/change it- you are one person in a huge org. But it sure makes it hard to do your actual job- the work of advocacy and executing strategic objectives for the company- when your days get sucked into this internal churn. So you aren’t alone in your frustration.

    • Ugh. That’s vague. I’m a PMP and while I don’t know anything about legal project management, I know this approach is fairly new to a large part of the legal community and there is some confusion (which you are experiencing). I had a quick look at PMI’s website for you to see if there is anything that might be of help to you. While not as active as other communities of interest, there is a Legal Community of Practice which seeks to apply project management to the community of law and there are a bunch of resources (webinars, blogs, papers, etc.). http://legalpm.vc.pmi.org/Public/Home.aspx

      Some webinar topics:
      – Predicting the Future: Predictive Coding in eDiscovery
      – Brainstorm with Mind Maps to create a WBS for Legal Projects
      – Implementing Legal Project Management
      – Eight key issues in legal project management
      – Avoiding Redundant PM Costs in Electronic-Discovery
      – An Introduction to Legal Project Management

      “Legal Project Management” by Stephen Levy
      “Legal Project Management” by Barbara Boake and Rick Kathuria
      “Legal Project Management Quick Reference Guide” by Jim Hassett

      Hopefully that will point you in a direction that helps answer some of your questions.

    • Divaliscious11 :

      Sounds like they want you to look at issues from less of a “the lawyer” approach versus a business partner who owns the legal portion of the project part. Are you focusing only on the legal issues you deal with, or are you examining the business issues for legal implications? It probably sounds like splicing hairs, but it is different and success in-house requires figuring out that difference for your organization. Part of the way to do this to be in the meetings, participate in the business side of the deal, not wait for the “here is what we need etc…”

      • Another Sarah :

        It’s not really anything legal; I’m not “in-house,” but I’m the only attorney in the office, and so I’m de facto in-house sometimes. So I’m always looking at legal issues, but I don’t really deal with them except to make them not a problem in the immediate term. For my marketing work, I manage big projects. I already do some project management, but it was in my own way with my system that (I thought) worked. The system my co-manager proposed, and the one I’m going to try out, seems very rigid to me. So I guess we’ll see? :-)

    • Hi Another Sarah,

      I actually worked in a very similar role at a SF-based bank. I was in legal, doing intermational corporate/regulatory work, and managing the global transition of a huge, huge merger. It was _all_ project management, and that involved defining scope, identifying appropriate resources, determining deliverables and setting timelines. I know this might make you sound crazy, but it’s OK to have planning meetings to delegate–that’s a lot of what PM entails when you work in a big MNC–there are resources that can do or find or take care of your project. Think about checklists, gantt charts and the like. They are immensely helpful.

      Do a lot of issue spotting, delegating, checking in on progress, and supervising. A huge part of PM is trusting your team and letting them do their work. Also, if you’re from a biglaw background, try hard to imagine a partner or senior associate would staff things and +100 on the comment above regarding looking at things from a business perspective. Which deliverables or assignments would a partner trust are ” largely correct”, as prepared by underlings, and which would they really hone in on, to check line-by-line?

    • Another Sarah :

      Thanks all for the replies! I appreciate it!

      As clarification, the PM part would come in for the marketing projects I’m managing (I’m also the marketing department), so it’s more project-management-oriented. I suppose, because I’m conditioned to spot issues, that I can tell exactly when the “system” that was proposed to me will crumble – it works well for our web-IT-specialist, but he doesn’t need to be as flexible as I do. And I can see how frustrated he is that his system isn’t working with our company culture, whereas my outlook is much different, which doesn’t help things. There are some things that I should be doing – figuring out our business goals and forecasting in a more formal way- that the system will help me to do, which is good. Otherwise, I don’t have much faith. Any pointers? :-)

  48. I don’t know if you have ever had an article about this, but my position requires a lot of skype calls and I need to look professional. What are some dos and don’ts about what works on video. I know some of my black/grey suits make me look washed out. And some of my patterned blouses/funky boucle jackets look too busy. Anyone have any thoughts about what to wear? I definitely have to wear suits/blouses with dressy cardigans. Ideas for colors/styles greatly welcomed.

  49. AnonInfinity :

    LinkedIn question — I’m looking through Friend A’s contacts and see Friend C that I want to connect to, so I push “connect.” I’m later looking through Friend B’s contacts and see Friend C again, so I push “connect” again.

    Does Friend C receive 2 LinkedIn invitations or just one? Assume Friend C has not had time to reject the original request.

    • Not sure, but if I was Friend C and I received 2 emails, I’d probably assume it was a duplicate e-mails sent from LinkedIn (presuming it was the same we know each other/did business together e-mail).

  50. For those in/used to be in biglaw, how much did you save each month (excluding 401k)? Want to get a sense of how much I should be saving outside of my 401k.

    • Jacqueline :

      Not in biglaw, but I’m curious about percentages saved outside of retirement, too. I try to max out my Roth, but beyond that, I feel like I either scrimp and save too much and don’t enjoy the extra or fight the urge to indulge.

    • Happy to share my experience. To put the numbers in context, I began in biglaw partway through 2011, I don’t have any student loans, and my living expenses are relatively low (about $700/month; in LTR with high earner; we are DINKs).

      In 2011, I earned about $115K pretax and saved $45K (via Roth IRA, Roth 401(k), savings account, and mutual fund).

      I don’t exactly have a savings schedule. I just try to max out my IRA as early in the year as possible, and then whatever cash I have lying around in my checking account (above, say, $2K or $3K, unless I know there will be a big expense coming up), I start transferring to my mutual fund. This year, I suspect I will save less, proportionally, because DH and I have a lot of weddings to go to/gifts to give/hotels and travel to pay for, plus some home renovations. I also decided to start scheduling in charitable giving, as opposed to doing it ad-hoc, so some of my savings will instead go to that. At the end of the year, I will figure out how much I’ve saved, and if it seems like way less than 2011, then I will tighten my shopping/travel budget for 2013.

  51. MeliaraofTlanth :

    I’m trying to come up with ideas for my boyfriend on something to get me for my birthday, and I was thinking maybe a nice business card holder, as I don’t have one. I really like this one from the Met Museum store:


    Question: Given that I’m turning 27 and therefore still a young professional who needs help for people to take me seriously, is that one too pretty/girly and should I go with something more serious-business?

    • No I think that one is really nice -not too girly at all. Besides, not many people besides you will see it.

  52. Ladies, I’m sick with bronchitis and not leaving the couch. I think this was discussed recently but I can’t find the discussion. Any suggestions of movies or TV shows I can watch streaming on Hulu or Amazon? I find myself totally unaccustomed to having time to watch TV.

    • Anonymous :

      Once upon a time!

    • Bluejay, if you didn’t find it, it’s on the first page of this thread (3:46pm); OP asked for Netflix, but there’s probably a lot of crossover. I hope you feel better soon (and try to stay away from watching anything that will make you laugh).

      • Of course it was on today’s thread :). I searched every thread from this week except this one. Thanks!

  53. I’ve been working for about 6 months (biglaw associate) and have my first performance review soon. My feedback is really, really bad, both about my work product and about general project management type skills. I’m terrified I’m going to get fired. I’ve heard people are generally not fired in biglaw for performance reasons until 1-2 years in (which, while not ideal, would be way better for my future job options than getting fired after 6 months). My hours have been good the last few months (they were low the first couple months but I understand that’s normal) and my team is really busy. Thoughts?

    • MissJackson :

      Work really, really, really hard to fix everything immediately. Ask for feedback after every single project from here on out. Are they going to re-review you in… 3 months?… 6 months? Or are you a year away from your next review? Start keeping track of what you’re doing to fix the problems that came up in your review. The good news is that it’s probably not too late if you try to fix things immediately.

      It used to be that no one got fired from BigLaw for performance reasons in the first couple years, but that’s not entirely the case any more (although I think it’s still somewhat rare). I don’t want to freak you out, but I think that it would be prudent to brush off your resume and add a cushion to your savings just in case. Better safe than sorry.

  54. How do you combat loneliness?

    I don’t know if I’m expecting too much, but I’ve been at law school for six months now with no real confidants or best friends. I try to socialize with people in groups but it doesn’t seem like any ‘real’ friendships are forming. It seems like other people aren’t having trouble with this.

    Part of me wants to not do anything, because it’s almost exam time and time to buckle down. But another part of me just wants some damn company – to feel heard, laughed with, listened to, not judged.

    I hate the social aspects of law school, it’s very isolating. I find them incredibly difficult to navigate somehow, and it feels like I’m the only one.

    • I had a similar experience in grad school – I socialized with my classmates, but had a hard time forming real connections. First of all – *hugs* – it’s hard to be in a new situation, and then to feel lonely and isolated on top of it.

      Is there any way you can get involved with a group completely unconnected to law school? A community of faith, or maybe a community sports team? I know law school is a ton of work, especially as a 1L, but carving out a slice of time each week to talk to people who don’t care what you said in class this week and who aren’t competing with you, can be very beneficial.

    • Dear 1L, I was very lonely in law school. You’re definitely not alone.

      Focus on your courses and exams in the next two months. But go to a corporette meetup if there is one where you live. ;-) This summer, really make an effort to have a nice time socially. Catch up with old friends, go to lots of events, etc. Next year, try to sign up for things (journal, student club — and do consider something that has nothing to do with law like an outdoors or yoga or wine tasting group) that will get you to work on projects with other students and maybe hang out with them. Things may be better in 2L year. I should warn you, though, that law school never turned into a great social experience for me. So much seems to depend on what your class happens to be like and whom you encounter in the first few months.

      One thing that has helped me in law school and also at the firm, is to not limit myself to those environments. At this point, almost none of my friends are in the law. I totally agree with Anya that getting a different perspective and talking about things other than exams or firm politics is nice. I am lucky in that I have an intensive hobby that gives me a natural community of people who share that interest, but if you don’t have that, there are still plenty of activities you could do, it might just take a bit longer before you meet people with whom you really hit it off.

      Hang in there!

    • You’re not the only one at all. I was absolutely miserable the first part of 1L year and didn’t start to really make friends until after around spring break. I found that there were other people with similar issues, but of course it’s not like anyone is going to come straight out and tell you about it. That said, I am not sure I really have any confidantes/best friends from law school of the same time I made when I was younger. I think it is good to have friends outside of law school who can help you keep things in perspective.

    • First of all, you’re not the only one. I was deeply miserable for all three years of law school, for a variety of reasons. One thing that really helped me was staying involved in my community outside of law school. Being an athlete for those three years probably wasn’t the best thing for my academics, but it definitely improved my mental health to spend a few hours at practice every day at travel to NCAA tournaments during our competition season. Are there any non-law-school clubs, sports, music groups, etc. you could get involved in?

      Also think about your living situation: are you on your own, and does that deepen the sense of solitude? Do you have roommates or housemates? Is a house-sharing opportunity available to you? Sometimes sharing space with others isn’t ideal, but if you’re really suffering from a lack of community, coming home to a house full of other people can be a really positive thing.

      Now something you may not want to hear, and this is coming from a textbook introvert: you really owe it to yourself to make an effort to participate in those “social aspects of law school,” to the extent you can face them. I hated them, too, for the most part, but I wish I’d taken advantage of them more. Knowing your classmates, professors, school administrators, etc. really can help with networking in the years to come.

    • Tired Squared :

      It’s not just you — I had similar issues during law school, especially in the beginning when I didn’t know anyone.

      Where are you located? Perhaps you can join non-law school things, like a local choir or volunteer group. I volunteered with an animal shelter for most of law school and it was great to be away from the legal stress … plus I got to play with adorable puppies!

    • I also was miserable throughout all 3 years of law school – first year was definitely the worst. Might I suggest work on finding at least one person in your section who you find barely tolerable and build your friends circle from there? You may find, as I did, that law students aren’t nearly as offensive as they seem, and that it might take a beer or two (or ten) to bring out their finer qualities. Hang in there!

    • What type of social activities have you done with classmates? In 1L we went around with the same 30 or so classmates all year so it was much easier to make friends than in the last two year of law school when everyone was taking different classes. For me, socializing revolved around going to the local bar for drinks on Fridays and studying together on the weekends and going out at night. Do you have a study group? You mentioned that finals are coming up so it might be a great way to make some friends and then after finals you can suggest going out to celebrate being done with your first year of law school! I know it is difficult, but seriously take it from me, making friends 1L is so much easier than later on in law school. I transferred after 1L and have absolutely no friends at my new school, but still speak to my friends from my previous one.

  55. Hopes to leave law :

    I am another biglaw (corporate) attorney who does not love her job. To be honest, the job is great in a lot of ways, but it is not for me in the long run. I am hoping to leave my job in the near future for a job outside of law, and I could use some suggestions as to jobs I should look into. I am good with numbers and interested in business (but do not find finance particularly fascinating). I am not terribly concerned with prestige or money, and I would not mind starting at a relatively low level. I also would love to enter a career that does not require years of 80+ hour weeks…

    Non-law exit opportunities from biglaw? I’d appreciate any advice/thoughts/data points!

  56. Any lawyers out there who also have a 2nd job to pay off their debt? If so, what kind of job? I’m looking for something I could do from home, TIA!

    • lucy stone :

      I work as an adjunct at our local technical college, teaching paralegals one night a week. A lot of my classmates are doing the same. You could potentially do this at an online college…

      • Great idea! Do you mind sharing how you find out about this position?

        • Online or on-the-ground adjunct teaching positions can be found in a few ways. You might try your local community college or junior college or technical college first. Here are my tips: 1) Call the relevant dean/department head or drop in to see them. (Some of these positions are filled at the last minute so being in the right place at the right time is sometimes the way to get that first position.) Or find out via LinkedIn if you have any connections that know someone, and get a referral. 2) Do a search at higheredjobs dot com or set up a profile and then the site will email you when jobs come in that match your criteria. 3) Ask some of your law school professors if they have any leads. You could also be a guest lecturer to get some experience.

          Online teaching is still growing albeit at a lower rate than a few years ago. I really like teaching online, and it’s great not to physically have to go to class after a long work-day. Many community, technical and junior colleges have online classes

          For JDs, look into teaching paralegal classes, business law for undergrads and depending on your expertise Real Estate Law or even personal finance.

          Online teaching is still growing albeit at a lower rate than a few years ago. I really like teaching online, and it’s great not to physically have to go to class after a long work-day.

          For JDs, look into teaching paralegal classes, business law for undergrads and depending on your expertise Real Estate Law or even personal finance.

          Good luck!

  57. My manager tends to get quite anxious when I go on vacation, even if it’s just for a few days. It doesn’t help that she never goes on vacation. Any tips on dealing with this? I don’t think the sky will fall if I am out for a few days (and still working and monitoring email), so her reactions are aggravating me slightly.

    • Do you do anything to prepare for your time out of the office? For example, what about drafting a detailed memo for your manager that:
      – explains the current status of all your projects
      – lists any changes or movement that might take place while you are out
      – provides a backup/contact person to handle any urgent needs
      – reassures your manager that you have alerted the appropriate people (clients, vendors, colleagues) about your absence

      It may seem like overkill for a brief vacation, but if she is anxiety-prone, it might go a long way if she feels like you have covered all the bases.

  58. All right ladies, let’s go to work on my spring wardrobe. I’m new-ish to corporate and through your excellent guidance have recently purchased “the” skirt in storm and a pair of cole haan air violets that rock my world! Now… its time for business. I want to spend about $1000 on a spring business wardrobe. I’m a size 14/16 post-babies, so all of my pretty things from springs past are out of the picture. I work in a moderately formal office setting where I’m expected to dress like a corporate banker half the time (when I meet with corporate bakers) and a more accessible public-servant the other half (when I’m working with the public).

    What to get???

  59. BrokeBridesmaid :

    I’m in a wedding in the spring and spent about $150 on the engagement party gift and $200 on the shower gift. Is it okay to give about the same for the wedding? I’m thinking $200 for my b/f and I.

    • It’s completely ok! if it were me, I’d probably give a little less- you’ve already donated $350 to their cause .

    • wow – you are a generous bridesmaid! Definitely $200 is enough – although if you’re already spending plenty on dress, travel, etc. I wouldn’t feel bad about “scaling down” for the wedding gift itself (despite having already spent what you did on the “pre”-presents).

    • Yeah for sure I already think you’ve gone way over. Usually you don’t give gifts for the engagement party, I usually give something like a nice bottle of wine. For shower I usually go 35-70 and the wedding around 150.

    • Holy crapola! You’ve already spent more than I’ve ever spent on a single wedding! Considering you’re presumably also spending money on a dress, shoes, and travel — you’re doing way more than is required.

    • SALit-a-gator :

      I think that is more than enough! I got married last June and frankly didn’t expect presents from those in the wedding party – they already had so many other expenses (dress, hotel, shoes, etc).

    • BrokeBridesmaid :

      Thanks for all the responses! I guess I don’t have to feel bad about it.

    • anon again :

      At this point, I’d do something handmade or similar for the wedding

  60. Massage vs. facial?

    I was gifted either a massage or facial at a local salon (Tommi’s in Philly, if any local ladies have an opinion). I have never had either, and would definitely benefit from both – although I have generally cooperative skin, it’s looking a little winter-dull and in need of a deep cleaning. Also, being scrunched up in a desk chair typing all day means a massage would feel delightful. But I have no clue what type I’d want, or what oil, or the general massage etiquette. Guidance??

    • Equity's Darling :

      I’d pick massage.

      It’s totally possible to give yourself a passable massage, just spend more time opening up your pores, do a good exfoliation, etc. It’s impossible to give yourself a good massage.

      • Equity's Darling :

        Sorry, it’s possible to give yourself a passable facial, but not a massage. I said massage twice.

    • Tired Squared :

      Massage for sure! As for what type/oil/etiquette, your masseuse will help you! Tell them where you’d like them to focus, and communicate with them during the massage so they know whether you’re happy with the pressure/oil/whatever else.

    • phillygirlruns :

      no experience with tommi’s, but you cannot go wrong with a basic swedish massage. if your gift certificate permits it, i’d include some type of special treatment – maybe hot stones, since those can work wonders for a knotted-up back.

  61. Are there maid service companies that would clean just your floors? I have these old vinyl tile kitchen floors that I’d love to have professionally cleaned but don’t want to spend a lot on

    • Leslie Knope :

      I’ve heard of people getting tile floors steam-cleaned, because usually the grout is the gross part and steam works well on that. A steam-cleaning company would probably be more open to a one-spot-only job than a maid service.

  62. Looking for some advice on negotiations. My office is moving, doubling my commute time to over an hour each way (not fun). I’m going to be asking for additional compensation for this, but I don’t know where to start, or what’s the best practice in this type of situation. I’m a mid-level business type for a tech company. Any advice?

    • I think it’s going to be a hard sell since everyone else in the company will also be affected. Is your office flexible about scheduling? Could you come in 7:30-4:30 or 9:30-6:30 to avoid rush hour commute, work 4 days a week, or work from home a few days a week? Sometimes just switching your schedule forward or backward by 30 minutes can cut your commute time down by half.

  63. karenpadi :

    For the women out there who are online dating. I have a dilemma:

    On eHarmony, one of my matches was a guy I’d be interested in (professional, no horrible spelling or grammar errors, has interests beyond geekery). But, when I looked at his pictures, I realized that he’s the head of the IP department at one of my main clients. I usually interact with his minions but I have meet him at client events and working lunches.

    Normally, when I see an acquaintance on a dating site, I drop a message to say hi and wish him well. Should I do the same for a professional contact? Or should I just ignore him?

  64. Help, Corporettes! I have a Shelli Segal Laundry coat that I love…but the zipper has broken. Any ideas where I could get a replacement zipper? I have someone who can repair it, if I find the zipper. Thanks!

    • You should be able to find them at any fabric/sewing store like Joann or Hancock. Walmart has also enlarged many of its sewing sections as well to include fabric and more notions, but you’ll probably want to call the store ahead of time because it’s not every store.

    • Jacqueline :

      You have my sympathy! I also have a Shelli Segal Laundry coat that I love, and when the zipper broke, I was devastated. The shoe repair guy in my neighborhood was able to fix it and provided his own zipper that looked a lot like the original — if you can’t find one on your own, see if there’s someone like that (a tailor or shoe repair person) who might be able to provide one. Good luck!

    • Thanks, MelD and Jacqueline! I’ve been trying to find one online, and it hasn’t been going well. I’ll check out the fabric stores. Jacqueline, if I remember correctly you are in Chicago? If so, would you be willing to share the name of your shoe repair guy if I don’t have any luck finding a zipper on my own?

      • Jacqueline :

        Plan B, I went to the shoe repair guy at on Damen just south of Lawrence — he’s great. I can’t remember the name of the shop, but it’s the only one on that corner. I also love the place on Broadway just south of Belmont (although I’ve only gone there for shoe repairs, but I still have a feeling they might be able to help). Good luck!