Splurge Monday’s TPS Report: Kacie Jacket

Our daily TPS reports suggest one piece of work-appropriate attire in a range of prices.

 Kate Spade New York Kacie Jacket Happy Monday! I love this Kate Spade v-neck top. It reminds me of a really structured blouse more than a jacket, but technically it is a jacket.  I’d wear this one year-round, with a thin cotton tank beneath it in warmer months and a thin cotton crewneck or turtleneck beneath it in cooler months.  It’s $378 at Zappos CoutureKate Spade New York Kacie Jacket

Update: Link fixed. D’oh.

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Comments

  1. One of these day’s I will be abel to afford Splurge Monday’s! But for now, and at least until I am a partner or MARRIED, I perfer fruegal Friday’s. Yay!!

    Myrna and I were up in Ulster County (upstate NY) where she was biking, swimming and running. She even swam in the Hudson River! The onley thing funny is that when she was swimming, some boat that was parked in the water let out some feceal matter, and it floated right by where she was swimming! FOOEY! She complained to the race co-ordeneator that it made her swim around it, but she did NOT get any extra time put back on her score. They said it is legal to flush the toilet on boat’s in the open water, so there is NOTHING they could do. DOUBEL FOOEY!

    I wonder how many times I have been swimming and feceal matter went by. Not alot, dad say’s b/c we mainley go to the pool’s and in the ocean, he said the fish eat it up b/f it EVER get’s to the beach! YAY!

    Dad says he is NOT interested in goieng to SF this summer, so it is goeing to either be me alone, or mabye Myrna. She did NOT want to discuss it b/c she was focussed on getting into a hot shower yesterday. I will bring it up again with her this week! YAY!!!!

    • Ellen, we are having a Bay Area Meet-up on July 27th. Come and visit us! We’d love to meet you.

  2. re-posting from the weekend thread: I LOVE the silk Talbots tanktop that Kat posted on Friday. Ideas on talbots sizing? I am narrow-shouldered, between a petite and a regular. I wear a size 4P or 2R in J Crew jackets, either a S or XS in gap tshirts. Looks like a great basic top I’d buy/ wear in a lot of colors.

    • My impression is that Talbot’s sizing runs big compared to J. Crew.

    • I’d suggest going petite, either the 2P or 4P. Talbots does run about a size larger than J Crew or banana on me.

    • With Talbots, I size down and switch to petite.

  3. This style of top always reminds me of those short-sleeved blazers that they (used to?) sell at juniors’ stores like Wet Seal. I can’t get on board the short-sleeved jacket train.

    • Olivia Pope :

      I won’t accept short sleeved jackets either. I would, however, like a top with this general cut.

      Kat: When I clicked on the links to this jacket, I see a [this site] page not found instead of the intended website.

      • Sydney Bristow :

        How about something like this? http://tinyurl.com/lccefx6. I wanted to order it myself yesterday, but they didn’t have my size in black.

    • I had a light gray jacket like this one when I was an intern.
      While I could still pull it off in my business casual office, I cannot get myself to wear a short-sleeve jacket or cropped pants to work.

    • I totally have two different short sleeved jackets that I wear as suiting separates when I have business trips in DC in the middle of the summer. They look very tailored and professional to me over a pencil skirt or pants, and so much cooler, I hope I’m not being judged too harshly. :o(

  4. Lovely!

    And now for a totally random question in the hopes someone here might be able to figure this out because I am stumped. I have a ring that I wore constantly for a few years. A couple of months ago it started to leave a sort of rash on my finger (red, kinda blotchy, dry), so I took it off and after a week or two, rash went away. Put the ring back on and rash started to come back after a few days. Took it off, it went away again. Now, I am basically at a point where I can wear it for about 2-3 days and then the rash starts to come back. The ring is white, rose, and yellow gold. I don’t think it’s a gold allergy because I wear gold all the time, and am wearing a different rose gold ring right now with no problems. Any ideas on what’s causing this?? I really love this old ring and would love to be able to continue wearing it daily… Sorry for the randomness but really hoping to figure this one out and so far it’s not going well.

    • It probably has some alloys or other metals mixed in and you’re reacting to those.

      • PS You might be able to “seal in” the allergenic materials with clear nail polish – I did this with some earrings that make my ears ooze.

    • Anne Shirley :

      My first guess would be that the white gold plating is wearing off and somehow irritating you. I might take it into a jeweler and see if they can replate it (not sure how feasible this would be with a mixed metal ring)

      • Famouscait :

        The inside only of my yellow gold wedding set is sealed with white gold because after a few years of marriage – and with no prior warning – my finger started acting up and I essentially became allergic to my wedding ring. Read into that what you will…. ;)

        A good jeweler can fix this for you easily.

      • This was my first instinct too.

    • It might not be the ring. Have they changed the hand soap where you work? I used to have this issue when they switched from industrial green to pink soap at the office. Residue from the pink soap trapped under my ring gave me contact dermatitis. Try cleaning your ring and making sure to rinse well under your ring when you wash your hands. Some cortisone cream may help clear up the rash.

      • Soap was my first thought, too — or lotion. I use a different lotion in the summer time, and last year found out that my usual summer brand had a “new formula” that irritated my skin. So if you switched lotions at all, that could cause a problem.

    • S in Chicago :

      One other thought: Have you gained any weight? My wedding ring started to do this when I put on a few more pounds than desired. I think it was the skin rubbing whenever I had swelling or perhaps the added tightness was trapping water under it when I was washing my hands or something. At any rate, I stopped wearing it for awhile (worked from home quite a bit) and recently lost about 30 pounds. When I started wearing it again recently, I noticed it hasn’t caused the same irritation. Just mentioning in case perhaps getting it adjusted a little bigger might do the trick.

      • All good ideas, I knew I came to the right place! I don’t think it’s weight related though maybe the summer heat is making it worse because my rings are definitely a bit looser in the winter months. I haven’t thought about the soap irritation, but might need to look into that. I hope it’s not the alloys in the white gold because I’m not sure how to fix that problem. My other thought was that it was friction related because the ring is actually three interlocking rings and I play with it a lot, but I feel like that would have been an issue before since I’ve always done this and it would have irritated me earlier… But maybe it is just a combination of that & some irritant. Thanks for all the ideas!

        • The soap thing was my first thought. If I use more harsh antibacterial soaps, I get contact dermatitis around my rings. That’s why I don’t mind purchasing nicer soap for the work bathroom. I buy only the moisturizing antibacterial soap at Bath & Body Works and in scents that don’t irritate me. Small price to pay.

          • A Nonny Moose :

            Unless you work in a setting where you really need antibacterial soap (hospital, e.g.) please please reconsider using antibacterial. It’s not any more effective than regular hand soap and comes with a lot of nasty side effects, from resistant bacteria to environmental effects.
            http://www.nrdc.org/media/2010/100408.asp

        • This happened to me with interlocking rings, like you after I had worn them for awhile. It is partly, for me at least, that I wasn’t getting my finger completely dry after washing my hands, and I think partly that the rings needed to be cleaned. I clean mine with just gentle soap and a airline provided mini-toothbrush (they are sterling silver and enamel). Also now after I wash my hands I get back to my office and take them off for a few minutes while I apply hand lotion, then let my hands and rings fully dry before putting them back on. This seems to have solved the problem.

          • @Polgara

            Nothing to add w.r.t. rings, but love your username. I read those books so long ago, but they were really fun. Nostalgia!

    • Do you have any other skin issues? When my eczema flares I will get it under my wedding ring, but not my others.

      • This happens to me too during a flare. I switch to a looser plain gold band until it calms down.

    • This happened to me last year. It wasn’t anything with the ring, but there must have been some bacteria or other irritant trapped underneath. I let the ring sit overnight in a mixture of 1/4 cup white vinegar and 1/4 cup hydrogen peroxide, then used an old tooth brush to scrub it, and put it into boiling water for 5 minutes. The rash went away after that.

      • Interesting! Is that safe?

        • I think so. (Nerd alert) The reaction between the hydrogen peroxide and vinegar creates peracetic acid, which is an oxidizing agent that kills bacteria. Peracetic acid isn’t good when stored at high temperatures, so I wouldn’t store the mixture in a bottle, especially in a warm location. I also wouldn’t drink it, obviously (or let children or pets near it). But if it’s in an open container, away from where small hands or paws can get to it, it should be fine.

  5. momentsofabsurdity :

    Reporting back on the Warrior Dash – so fun!

    You definitely did not need to be that in shape to do it. I wore long leggings made of some kind of polyester blend and a team tshirt. I cut the collar off my shirt and this was *such a good decision*. Not only was it not bugging me during the race, seeing my teammates struggling to pull the shirts off after the race and not end up covering their hair in mud made me glad I had done it. Not much stuck to my leggings, which were $15 from Forever 21 and I think might actually be salveagable.

    Our heat was later in the day, so slept in a bit, I went to boot camp (where my instructor really nicely just led me through what he called a “warrior dash warmup”) and then we headed over there. Looked like rain but luckily the skies stayed clear.

    The course was so. muddy. Like… mud up to my knees/calves, probably 1/3 of the course. Not as an obstacle, but as part of the course. I knew it would be a mud run but I don’t know if I expected there would be that much mud, outside of the actual obstacles. That much mud meant that for a good portion of the course, we couldn’t run at all – it was more like wading through. Part of the extreme mud could have been related to the fact that we were a late in the day wave, and the course may have been better earlier on. I was a little disappointed at that part, as I was looking forward to pushing myself to get a good time, and at the end of the race, we ended up just over 40min — not terrible, but not super respectable either.

    The obstacles were not even close to as hard as I was imagining. In fact, all of them were pretty easy (though some of them were kind of scary). The only one that was tough was the first one – running up a 45 degree angle wall. I think, again, that was probably easier earlier in the day, before that ramp was slicked with mud. I had to basically be hoisted over by a kind stranger, while flapping around like a dying penguin. There rest of the obstacles were pretty simple – tire run, climbing over haybales, across a (wide) balance beam over a mud pit, a rope climb, etc. The second to last obstacle was a chest deep mud pit under barbed wire which is how I got completely covered – before that I had just been mud from the knees down and a few healthy splashes everywhere else. The last one was the scariest for me – the jumping over fire. It wasn’t hard or anything, I was just freaked out that I was going to trip and land in the flames.

    I threw out my shoes and shirt afterward, but everything else seems okay now that it’s rinsed out. There were hoses for us afterward to clean up and then I changed clothes, which helped a lot. Next time, I would bring a huge towel to change under, since there was really no place to do that without just stripping down in the field. The best thing we brought was baby wipes – definitely helped to clean ourselves off once the mud had dried a bit. We didn’t even need seat covers for the car on the way home!

    Overall – such a fun experience! I’m in okay shape, but I’m not extraordinarily strong or anything, and I found the obstacles completely doable. I was tired afterward but there was no point in the race where I was actually thinking to myself, “Oh god, I’m going to die and I can’t do this.” We got some great before/after pictures and I am definitely signing up for another mud run/obstacle dash – maybe even the one in Fenway!

  6. Has anyone here made the shift from an urban area to the suburbs? DH and I have been looking to buy a place in NYC and we realize that we cannot afford anything nice and that anything we buy will be a downgrade from our current tiny (but awesomely located) rental. I love living in t city and the suburbs freak me out. I’m wondering if I should give the burbs another serious chance. Any ladies here make the move from NYC to a commutable burb? How was the transition? Is it better or worse than you expected? If it helps, we are having a baby next year, so we will need some more space.

    • marketingchic :

      I’m not in NYC, but i moved from another city to the burbs when my oldest was 2. 5 years later, do I miss the city? In many ways, yes. But, we live differently post kids and don’t go out nearly as much. Having a a comfortable house that we enjoy being in becomes much more important when you spend so much time in it. School district was also a factor for us. We’ll probably move back to the city when our kids are out of the house, but for now this is the best thing for us.

      When you’re looking, consider your childcare plan when thinking about your commute. A lot of daycare centers require that you pick up by 6:00.

    • Not in NYC, but considering the same move, for the same reaons, and feeling the same sense of trepidation. Will be following comments with interest.

    • Suburban lady :

      We moved from NYC to the burb where we grew up. I love it here, but I think I’m a suburban girl at heart. My husband, however took some convincing. One huge thing that made it easier to transition was living in shot walking distance to a great downtown. This place will never be NYC but its wonderful to walk to a nice dinner or to a concert or to brunch. My husband commutes via railroad and we have one car. Our home is older and without much property so we have more of a small town vibe than the classic suburban vibe of the hood where I grew up where all the houses looked alike and were far apart (which my husband always found isolating) . I would definitely seek out vibrant walkable towns in your search! Good luck!

    • Anon in NYC :

      Have you considered Hoboken or Jersey City. I don’t think the public schools are that good (I could be wrong), but depending on your location it’s a quick commute into the city via the PATH or bus. You’ll get more space for your money, and I think the areas are becoming more child-friendly (more daycares, etc.). I’m assuming that you’ve also considered Brooklyn / easily accessible Queens (like Kew Gardens, Astoria, LIC, Forest Hills)?

      DH and I considered buying a house in the suburbs shortly after we got married (had a serious nesting moment) and backed out at the last minute because we were so freaked out about leaving the city.

    • hellskitchen :

      In the same boat as you. Looked for a place in Manhattan for a few months because we did not want a long commute but after seeing the options in our budget we are increasingly attracted to Jersey as we can get a lot more space for the money and still have some semblance of an urban life if we go to Hoboken or something.

    • Have you been looking in just Manhattan or the other boroughs? Queens and Brooklyn are more affordable and some sections have nice commutes. I recommend looking North as opposed to long Island if the boroughs don’t work, simply because the Lirr is a nightmare.

    • Haven’t made the move and don’t want to for the same reasons you mention but I feel like there are a LOT of options between full-on suburbs and “NYC” (which I am guessing actually means central Manhattan and downtown Brooklyn)…. There are lots of places where you can have more space and bang for your buck without going full on suburban. Depending on where you work, some might make more sense than others. But, from people I know some have looked at/moved to Hoboken, Riverdale, Forest Hills, etc. One of the motivating factors in making my friends choose these places over more suburban NJ/Long Island/CT was a shorter commute and the ability to take the subway (a friend who moved to Forest Hills gets to her midtown office in 25 min. and has no need for a car, another who works in Financial Dist. takes Path from Hoboken which is roughly same time as her commute was from UWS), the fact that it is still walkable, and, most important, the fact that most moms in these neighborhoods still work. This is one of the chief complaints I hear from people who move further out – that most of the moms don’t work and are a bit judgy about the working moms who don’t participate as much in school, etc., and that when you spend two hours plus a day commuting daily back and forth, it starts too become too hard and you question whether it’s worth it to stay at work. Obviously, this is all purely anecdotal but just throwing out my two cents of secondhand experience.

      • +1 on the part about paying attention to how many moms in the neighborhoods you’re considering still work. I think this is a big factor that really trips working moms up when they move to the ‘burbs. You think the big question is city vs. burbs, but then when you’ve made the decision to go to the burbs, people mostly look at how long the commute is, what they can get for their money, and how good the schools are. All important factors, to be sure, but don’t underestimate the importance of landing in a community where you won’t be viewed as an oddity for continuing to work. It makes a big difference in your ability to make meaningful friendships with the other parents at your kids’ school and in how the schools schedule parent-related events.

      • AIMS, as usual, speaks the truth. There are a lot of 5 borough options that are a good compromise between full-on suburbs and Manhattan below 96th street. I’ve lived in upper Manhattan for years, and it’s a great compromise – we have a huge (3-bedroom!) apartment for less rent than I was paying for a studio on the UWS. There are beautiful parks all around, but the express subway is a 5-minute walk from the apartment.

        There are additional cost of living factors you’ll need to consider in your city vs. suburbs equation. You’ll likely need two cars, and the attendant expenses (gas, insurance, maintenance). A longer commute means more time in child care, which may cost more. There are probably others.

        • Other issues to consider:

          If you move out to the burbs, you can easily rack up costs of yard maintenance. This is an issue if you’re busy. You can either blow what free time you have on taking care of the lawn yourself, or spend $$$ to get it maintained. Think very carefully whether this is worth it.

          If not, then a large condo or townhouse development where all of the yardcare is taken care of via fees to the homeowners/condo-owners association may be the solution, provided that they were not onerous. But the downside is the possibility of Crazy Condo / Townhouse people and crappy parking restrictions. In lots of suburban developments, the developers tried to squeeze as many housing units on the land as possible– which meant reducing parking and driving space in these actual cul-de-sacs and neighborhoods to the barest minimum, which meant almost no guest parking, or being SOL if you have 2 car that you don’t want to park in tandem.

          Other “hidden costs” – more in terms of time and inconvenience. If you live, say 45 minutes away from NYC in some CT, NY, or NJ suburb, and you work long hours, where would your primary care doctor or ob/gyn be?

          I’m not a parent, but isn’t it the case that if you’re currently pregnant, you have ob/gyn appointments fairly frequently? If you have a baby next year, what if your trusted ob/gyn who’s handled all your appointments is an NYC doctor with no admission privileges in CT? Pretend you move to the CT suburb 45 minutes out. And that’s where your water breaks. Do you really want to be scrambling to either drive back into the city to give birth where your doctor has admission privileges, or try your luck with whomever is at the nearest CT hospital?

          I would definitely not recommend anyone who’s pregnant or about to be pregnant make such a move. As others have said, babies aren’t aware of whether they’re in the city or in a grassy suburb. They won’t remember the first yr of their lives, so as long as you’re not tearing your hair out sharing an apartment with a (possibly screaming, possibly sleepy or quiet) baby, one option is to wait until the child is about to attend pre-school.

    • Killer Kitten Heels :

      What about taking a year to rent in the ‘burbs? Look around, figure out which general part of the tri-state area you want to move to (there are suburbs in NJ, Westchester, Long Island, and CT that are all commuting distance to NYC), and then rent a house or apartment in/near your target community for a year. If you hate it, you can move back to NYC with fewer repercussions than if you’d bought a home, and it’ll be a good home base from which to explore surrounding towns so you can find the one that’s truly the best fit if it turns out you are comfortable with the suburbs.

      • +1 renting is a much lower commitment to the idea of moving to the burbs. The moving costs (and energy involved) can be tiresome (esp, if you’re going to move again, either into a purchase, or back into the urban area), but possibly worth if it you have the heebie-jeebies about the burbs.

    • Moved from NYC to a suburb not adjacent to NYC, but agree that with kids, especially once they get past age 2 or so, it really adds to quality of life to be able to have more living space. I loved having babies in the city, but we just couldn’t afford enough space after the kids started walking and moving.

      In terms of suburbs, you might think of places that are more like small towns than suburbs. The little towns up along the Hudson River seem very attractive that way — easy MetroNorth access to the city, historic downtowns (albeit in need of some repair), lots of gorgeous nature, the Hudson River — if we’d stayed in or around NYC, we might have moved to Hastings-on-Hudson, Dobbs Ferry — somewhere up there.

    • My advice would be to keep renting in Manhattan and don’t think about buying until after you have your baby and have gone back to work for a little while. Unless one of you is planning to stay home with the baby, a shorter commute will make your lives so much easier, and it’s really hard to know how your life will change with a kid. You might decide you want to move halfway across the country to be closer to family; you or your husband might decide to switch career paths/trajectories to have more time with the kid. If you love the urban lifestyle, give yourself a chance to experience it with a kid. You might find it’s worth the trade off in space and expense to stay, or you might find that the ‘burbs/quasi-burbs are more appealing.

    • Olivia Pope :

      I’m childless in the Midwest, so I’m not the best resource. However, I just want to point out that you don’t necessarily need to move to a bigger place before baby comes. Your baby doesn’t truly need his/her own bedroom just yet. (But if you want to avoid the stress of moving with a baby, then by all means buy a place now!)

      Here’s a post I was reading earlier today about squeezing a nursery into a small apartment: http://babyandblog.com/2013/06/mommyhacker-how-i-squeezed-a-nursery-into-60-square-feet/

      • goldenhue :

        Ladies – thank you for all the input! I should have clarified that by NYC, I was referring to Queens, Brooklyn and Manhattan. The options are just very slim all around and even the not to nice properties go really quickly. It is comforting to know that others have faced this same decision – and have found good options in both places. I just feel pressure to buy soon before the baby gets here and before interest rates rise even further.

        • Suburban lady :

          Good luck to you! I’m hoping you’ll find a burb you love as much as we love ours!

  7. Sorry – need to rant a bit. Apparently, a friend of my ex-H’s saw my Dad’s obit in the local paper (where I grew up) and told ex-H. Rather than contacting me directly like a normal person would, ex-H’s wife called a mutual friend here to pump him for information. Mutual friend didn’t know much because we had just texted a couple of times in the past few weeks and I’ll see him in person this week. The wife was so drunk when she called my friend that she got the details wrong and I got this really weird email from ex-H saying that he had “heard” that my stepmother had had a heart attack! I really want to fire back at him and tell him that he and his wife are idiots and that I was clearly expecting too much that they would behave like adults. But I won’t. So I’m saying it here.

    • This is particularly annoying because he could have just looked up the obit online. My condolences.

    • Senior Attorney :

      That’s just gross. I’m sorry, NOLA. You didn’t need that.

    • Anon in NYC :

      Ugh. Hugs. It’s terrible that an already difficult time is made worse by foolishness.

    • Blonde Lawyer :

      That really frustrates me for you. I feel like there are times where everyone should just set aside their pasts and drama and just do the right thing. A death in the family is one of those times. Unless your break-up was the type he thought his condolences wouldn’t be welcome, he should have just called you, said he heard you had a loss in your family and offer his sympathies. At least you can have no doubts you are better off without him!

      • I think the awkwardness was more about his wife’s insecurities than anything to do with me. Or at least that’s what I suspect. He not only knew my Dad and stepmother well – we lived with them for 3 months after Hurricane Katrina. Just unbelievable. But, as I told a friend, I had to drink a lot when I was married to him, too.

        And yes, absolutely I am a hundred times better off without him.

        • “But, as I told a friend, I had to drink a lot when I was married to him, too.

          And yes, absolutely I am a hundred times better off without him.”

          LOL! +1

  8. Reposting from the weekend thread, because I’d love some advice…

    I’m wondering how you all keep up with your professional networks, particularly after you leave a job that you love and hope to return to down the road. Does anyone have a system that they use to keep track of contact info., where people work, what they do, etc.? An old school address book? LinkedIn? Filed emails? And then once you are keeping track of everyone, how do you make sure to keep those connections fresh? How often should you be trying to touch base with people?

    • Senior Attorney :

      I always keep the internal phone list from my old job. And although I am not an awesome keeper-in-toucher, I do try to email or call once in a while (a few times a year) and do lunches or after-work drinks with people.

    • A Nonny Moose :

      Take a look at Evernote Hello. I’ve only recently started playing with it but it looks like a great system for what you want to do.

    • I just keep all the contact information in my outlook contacts. But to me the hard question is how to remember to try to stay in touch with the people who you’d like to keep as part of your professional network. I heard a consultant talk once about creating a “drip list”, which is actually a concept taken from the email/direct marketing world, but you can use the same concept. Basically the idea is that you find a reason to contact these people a certain number of times a year (depending on the relationship, what you’re trying to accomplish, maybe it’s once a month, maybe it’s once a quarter). But you need to keep track of that, or your good intentions aren’t going to translate into action after some initial phase. I haven’t figured out the best way to keep track of this either, but I guess maybe just an excel spreadsheet would do it.

  9. The intern :

    Good morning ladies,

    I have a question for the hive. I am a law clerk this summer and am ashamed to say I just received a “talking to” about my attitude toward clerical assignments (copies, indexing, etc.). I am mortified, I’ve worked since I was old enough to drive myself to a job and I don’t consider myself to be one of the horror-story interns you read about on here. I’m obviously concerned about how to turn this around, when I didn’t realize I was doing it and was given no specific instance of it happening. Truthfully, I do get frustrated with clerical duties- partly because even though I follow directions, sometimes I get it wrong because it wasn’t fully explained, or I don’t know what questions to ask, but also partly because I’m not learning. I realize I need to suck it up on the last part and get over it, but any tips on how to get better at reading what my superiors want without them spelling it out? Please don’t crucify me- I’m genuinely trying to fix this and would appreciate good advice.

    • Sydney Bristow :

      Can you give an example of the type of assignment you’re talking about and what kind of mistakes you have made?

      I worked at a small firm my 2L summer and did work on some clerical things like Bates stamping, mailing, etc. One night I stayed late with my supervisor and we had to fax something out after everyone else had left for the day. She commented that she was so glad she had interned there because she knew where things were and how to use the machine. They may seem insignificant, but sometimes it becomes really important to know how to handle the clerical duties. Try to focus on that when you feel like you aren’t learning anything.

      • goldribbons :

        +1. You actually ARE learning skills when you do clerical duties. Fix that attitude. Sounds like otherwise, you’re doing great!

      • The Intern :

        Sidney, for example, I worked on exhibits the other day and was told to copy/sticker/etc. only the tabbed documents. I was told today that I supposed to also locate and copy attachments to some of the emails that were tabbed. I did not complete that assignment (they knew I wouldn’t have time, and an attorney took over it when I had to leave) and I was just told I basically humiliated them in front of opposing counsel. Feeling very small right now.

        • goldribbons :

          Sounds like you should try to make friends with paralegals/secretaries that can help you in the future. Also, you did not humiliate them — they failed to give you enough instructions to properly complete the task. Growing a thick skin isn’t fun but it starts now. You still have plenty of time in the summer to demonstrate your ability and good attitude!

          • Sydney Bristow :

            I second this entire comment. The next time you are asked to do something like that for the first time, run it by a paralegal or secretary to see if you’ve covered everything that needed to be done. They clearly didn’t give you complete instructions on that and should have looked it over before using it in front of opposing counsel, so it’s not your fault. Developing a good relationship with the paralegal and/or secretary who assists the person who gave you the assignment will be critical since I imagine that will not be the first time you are not given complete instructions. That attorney probably gives the paralegal or secretary that task and assumes he or she knows all the related components of the task that you’d have no way of knowing about to even get instruction on.

        • Anon in NYC :

          Yes, talk to paralegals, secretaries, or junior associates who probably do the same jobs as you to get a sense of what the more senior person is looking for. It’s not your fault that you didn’t know what you were doing, this time. But now you have to take that as a learning opportunity. The next time you are given an assignment like that and you see that there are 40 pages behind 1 flagged document, ask the attorney if they want you to copy all 40 pages rather than just the first page. Your job is to learn to ask questions that help you complete your assignment.

          While the copy job you were given is a basic task, exhibits to provide to opposing counsel are not insignificant. The attorney should have checked them. I always check what a more junior associate / summer associate does for me, because what is sent on implicitly has my affirmation.

          And, last, some attorneys (people) are just jerks. Shocker, I know. I work with one person in particular who sucks up to partners and treats all people more junior to him like dirt. Worse than dirt, actually. It would be completely normal for him to give vague instructions and then get mad when the finished product did not reflect what he envisioned in his head but never conveyed. It sucks, but you do have to learn how to shake it off.

        • Killer Kitten Heels :

          What do you mean by “had to leave?” Unless you were leaving to go to a truly un-put-off-able obligation, I’d say your mistake was leaving with the task undone. Part of being an intern is showing you’re a team player who will stay late and pitch in, even on the “boring” stuff like copying documents, and even when you’re not getting paid for the time or weren’t expecting to spend that much time in the office that day.

          Also, were the attachments immediately following the tabbed emails? If so, I can kind of see why the attorneys you work for would’ve thought that was a “no-brainer” – attachments to emails are clearly part of the email, at least to me. If the attachments were located elsewhere (meaning you would’ve had to hunt for them), then yes, they should’ve warned you about that, but if they handed you a stack of tabbed emails with attachments immediately following the tabbed pages, I can see their issue with the way you handled the task, especially given that you then left early and dropped the work on another person.

          • I somewhat disagree. It sounds like they knew she wasn’t going to be able to finish the task when they gave it to her. If she was an associate, she would have been expected to stay and finish it. But not if she’s an intern and they knew she was planning to leave (if they didn’t want her to leave, they should have said so). As for emails + attachments, totally obvious to anyone…who’s dealt with exhibits or the whole concept of what constitutes a “document” before. (I have had many, many arguments with opposing counsel about what a “document” is in this context.) If it’s not something you’ve ever had to consider before (and if you’re a law student, you probably haven’t) then it just wouldn’t cross your brain.

          • The Intern :

            Unfortunately, staying late is usually not an option (not my choice- some firms have budgets they need to keep in mind). The attachments were not part of the documents.

            I appreciate everyone’s advice and feedback. It’s really made me reconsider things and most of it has been very helpful. Thank you.

          • Killer Kitten Heels :

            TBK, I wasn’t saying I agreed with that line of thinking, I was just pointing out for the OP what the attorneys’ logic likely was, considering that this incident happened and then she got ripped for (a) doing it wrong and (b) having a bad attitude.

        • I am a banana. :

          The takeaway from this situation is that you need to learn what question to ask. Sometimes the documents attached to the e-mails might NOT be part of the exhibit. The only way you can know is to ask.

          You will make mistakes. That’s part of lawyering. It’s okay to feel bad about them, but don’t kill yourself over it. It’s much more important to learn how to avoid that mistake next time.

          Also, any attorney with the stones to tell YOU that you humiliated them in front of opposing counsel sounds like a toolbag to me. Lawyers are responsible for everything they sign and send. Sounds like you got to play the part of punching bag. Don’t beat yourself up over it since it sounds like they already did.

          • I agree to your entire last paragraph. Who the heck would tell an intern that?

    • If you get something wrong because it wasn’t fully explained, then make a note of that thing to ask the next time you get an assignment.

      Take a notebook and write things down, if you aren’t already. It can help you make a note of what you were asked previously and may jog your memory for questions to ask.

      You are only “not learning” if you aren’t paying attention. As much as internship is supposed to be educational, it’s not going to be spoonfed to you on a day to day basis. You likely won’t have reading assignments like you would in class, so you need to figure out what you want to know and the best way to find that out, without slacking on the assignments you are given or getting in anyone’s way.

      And sometimes its just going to be boring.

    • What kind of place are you clerking at? Are you being paid? Are there any clerical staff that help the attorneys, or is everyone supposed to do their own copying, etc.?

      I interned at a state attorney’s office after my 1L year, unpaid, and grew very tired of clerical tasks very fast. It was somewhat acceptable for me to do some of these tasks, because the office had very little support staff, the technology was from about 1990, and all the attorneys were expected to do a lot of it themselves. I did have to talk to them though when more than 60% of my day was spent copying, etc.; at that point I wasn’t learning anything and my time would have been better spent researching for a professor. They were fine with it, but if I had applied to work for the office post-grad it may have been an issue.

      If, however, you aren’t being paid and it seems like the office is using interns just to save on support staff costs, that’s totally not OK. You’re there to learn, not to be a secretary. I’d contact your career services office to figure out the best way to approach the issue. There might not be a way to get out of that situation without harming your resume, but it’s important to remember that in this case it’s really not your fault.

      Finally, if you are being paid, I think you have to suck it up and deal. Warn people in the class below you next year not to intern for the place!

      • I just realized I may have misread. Are you a law student, or an undergrad/post-undergrad law intern? If the latter, than ignore my advice and follow what the other posters said!

    • Anne Shirley :

      Think of your job as making things go smoothly. Clerical tasks are absolutely a learning opportunity- they’re all about attention to detail, which all lawyers need. If your problems are stemming from not paying enough attention, make checklists. If they’re because you don’t know what you’re doing-ask. There’s probably a secretary, courtroom deputy, career clerk or term clerk who knows what the judge is looking for.

      • +1

        Plus, usually it is a ‘test.’ You need to prove that you’re able to handle all aspects of a job before you get the harder, more obviously detailed, work.

    • On the part about not totally understanding what you’re supposed to do, you might try sending a follow up email after being given a task, just to say “based on our conversation, my understanding is that you need me to do X, Y, and Z, and to have it on your desk no later than CoB tomorrow.” That allows the assigning person to see it in writing and catch any errors, and gives you cover if they later say they wanted something different from what you did. Also, it could help you to show that, given the instructions, there was more than one way to understand what was expected of you.

      Good for you for wanting to improve on this! To really earn brownie points, I’d suggest you go back in a week or two to whoever talked to you and say that you’ve consciously made specific improvements and were wondering if you were on the right track.

    • Ask junior associates who work with the partner in question how they typically handle such things. Because junior associates, yep, also have to do this stuff. Most of the time, it IS techically something that an admin could handle, but they want someone who’s really invested in the deal to do it and to be detail-oriented to the point of exhaustion, because no one wants there to be a missing signature page from one party’s set of documents, or there to be a typo in some copies but not others because the person replacing the page in question wasn’t paying attention… um, and they can also then bill for all of the double checking etc.

      True, it’s not learning “the law,” but it is learning how to be a good junior associate.

    • During my clerkship summer, I found that my partner’s legal secretary was a huge help to me, both in terms of helping me with clerical tasks (telling me how to work the copier, not doing it for me) as well as telling me how the partners wanted things done and how to prioritize assignments and make the best use of my time. Hopefully there is someone at your office who can help show you the ropes without intimidating or judging you. Best of luck!

      • Just wanted to echo everbody elses’ comments.

        Figuring out what a partner means when they say “3 copies in binder of xyz docs” is part of the job.

        Also, knowing how things get done/work means that when you give directions to paras/secretaries, you can be clear about exactly what you want and not get blindsided/delayed later, or your butt chewed out for having the exhibits done incorrectly because “I didn’t personally do it” is not an excuse… when it’s your job to make sure all of it gets done correctly.

        I had a lot of errors in the beginning b/c I didn’t realize all the different variables/questions that should have been asked (not having been a paralegal) but thankfully, it wasn’t called an “attitude” problem but more that I simply didn’t know.. it sucks, but this too shall pass.

        Hang in there!

    • Killer Kitten Heels :

      First of all, I want to point out that, even with the clerical stuff, you ARE learning – you’re learning about how to put together a properly formatted document for whatever it is that you’re creating, you’re learning how to use the office equipment (which, as Sydney points out, is no small thing), and what’s required for filing/for clients/etc. I’ve been a law clerk to a judge, and I cannot tell you how many attorneys’ work product gets bounced or otherwise dinged for incorrect formatting/clerical errors – too many pages, failure to send the right number of copies, failure to serve opposing counsel with papers by the appropriate method, you name it. If your attitude is that you’re only “learning” when you’re doing substantive research and writing, you’re missing the boat on a pretty major portion of law practice. It matters if your exhibits are in the right order when attached to an affirmation, or if your schedules are in the right order when attached to a contract. It matters that there are enough copies of a document made to go around at a deposition, and that you have appropriately-packaged courtesy copies to provide to the court at a hearing. To me, the “the clerical stuff doesn’t matter” attitude is akin to the “why do I need to wear a suit, the court should only care about what I say, not how I dress” attitude – presentation matters in the law, and it sounds like that’s a lesson you could (and should) take away from this experience.

      As for how to get better at the execution – take your time! Just because a task is “clerical” in nature doesn’t mean you can just rush through it. Make sure things are collated properly. Make sure you made the right number of copies, and everything’s labeled the way it should be. If you’re proofreading or typing, triple-check your work. Typos are never okay. (I once worked for a partner who liked to “joke” that he’d charge us five cents for each typo – he never actually collected, but if you “owed” him more than a dime on a given assignment, it was a pretty big problem.) When given a clerical assignment, repeat it back to the person assigning it – make sure you understand what’s being asked of you before you leave the conversation. If, partway through, you realize you’ve missed something, go back and clarify. Finally, make friends with the support staff – they know where everything is and can be a good resource for questions you wouldn’t want to bother a partner with, like “how do I get the copy machine to print collated copies?” and other similar issues.

  10. Has anyone else received their Nordstrom Anniversary Sale catalogue yet? I got mine on Saturday.

    • Nordstrom Sale :

      I did, and i honestly wasn’t toooo thrilled. Usually, i stock up on basics and some of the stuff seemed kind of out there. Is the catalog inclusive of everything that will be on sale? anyone know?

      • I got the same impression. There were a lot of looks that looked great on the models and would not look good on ordinary people. Some of the handbags were hot, though. the catalogue is not usually inclusive of everything that will be on sale.

    • Yes and it appears that the skirt is coming back in petite sizing. Other than that, nothing really stood out to me.

    • I got mine on Thursday. I was “meh” – the catalog only showed a small portion of sale. Nothing from home dept was even shown. I’m going in today to see when I can pre-order some things.

    • My reaction was also a big fat meh. But usually Nordie’s puts only the fashion-y stuff in the catalog because it’s fun and exciting to look at I guess, and offers a lot more classic stuff that I actually might want to buy online, so I am hoping the same is true this year. Presale is online only for the first time this year, starts July 10.

  11. So I’ve achieved all of the financial goals I had set – I have 6 months of living expenses saved in a account that I can access easily, I’m maxing out my retirement fund at work, and I have a Roth IRA. Now I want to do something with the extra money I’m accruing rather than put it in a savings account. I was thinking that a mutual fund was a possibility, but I know very little about investing and I was reading up on it this morning, but am getting a little confused. Can anyone recommend any reading materials on investing? I’m overwhelmed with options. If you have other advice, please feel free to point it out.

    • Killer Kitten Heels :

      A friend of mine found herself in this boat recently and went to a financial planner for advice. I don’t know much about it, as I don’t myself have any financial planning to do other than “pay bills” at the moment, but she used someone who was independent (i.e. not tied to a particular investment firm) and felt she got good advice, which she took.

    • Diana Barry :

      Vanguard index funds! They have very low fees. I think you can open accounts on their website, also.

      I have “The Only Investment Guide You’ll Ever Need” and have also heard good things about Investing For Dummies. :)

      • +1 on Vanguard. Vanguard has some really good (free!) materials on their site explaining their investment “philosophy”.

        I took a personal finance class through the night school at my community center. The book we used was this:
        http://books.google.com/books/about/A_Woman_s_Guide_to_Investing.html?id=N7Ls_aPlvVYC

      • Anon in ATX :

        +1 to Vanguard

        They have lots of literature on their website to read as well. We have been investing a small sum each month for several years and it is as painless as possible.

    • Mary Ann Singleton :

      I put my extra money every month in Vanguard index funds (VFINX, which I just converted to VFIAX since I met the minimum for that class of shares, which have a lower cost), but I also plan to leave it there for a long time. If it’s money you’ll need in the short term (down payment on a house, etc.), you might be better off with savings accounts/CDs, but bear in mind that you’re likely losing money in those due to inflation.

    • Sydney Bristow :

      Congratulations!! I found the book I Will Teach You To Be Rich by Ramit Sethi to be super helpful on learning about investing.

  12. Life Insurance :

    [Reposting from weekend thread]

    For those of you with term life outside of that provided by work, how did you get it? Is there some neutral website that compares rates? (When I google, I get a lot of things that look like they are sponsored by insurance companies (i.e. not unbiased comprehensive rate calculators). If you used an insurance salesperson, how did you find out who provides unbiased information / best rates for you?

    And if your employer provides LTD, do you need to buy a policy beyond that?

    TIA so very very much.

    • Diana Barry :

      We (DH and I) have a friend who is an independent insurance agent. He got us quotes/rate comparisons and we each got a policy with the best rate (not from the same company, fwiw). We each have about $2M in insurance. This did require a medical exam for both of us.

      Don’t use Northwestern Mutual – they push their own products and are quite a bit more expensive (I have a few friends who have policies there).

      • Diana Barry :

        Oh, and we don’t have any LTD…haven’t really looked into it at all.

        • Senior Attorney :

          Please look into this as soon as possible! You are probably more likely to be disabled than to die, and LTD for both you and your DH is an important part of your family’s financial safety net!

    • OCAssociate :

      We recently used Intelliquote online – it gives you quotes from multiple carriers, for various types of policies, and gives you the carrier’s rating. We worked through them to get our policy.

      I took an insurance broker class once that recommended that you don’t get LTD insurance until age 40-50. They said that before then, the cost isn’t justified by the risk.

    • Sweetknee :

      The answer is YES (sorry for the Ellen caps), you do need LTD. Most employer sponsored plans go for 2 years, if you are disabled from your particular job, and after that, you have to be disabled from basically any gainful employment to continue on the benefits, which is a high hurdle for well educated people who generally have sedentary jobs.

      Also keep in mind that if you have a LTD plan on top of an employer sponsored plan, the benefits coordinate, meaning your employers plan will offset what you get from another carrier. Just to make the math simple, let’s say you are getting 1000/mo from your company’s LTD plan, and your supplemental plan is paying you 400/mo. As soon as you start getting that 400 per month, your company is going to reduce your benefits by $ 400. Just something to keep in mind. Most LTD plans pay 66% of your regular salary. Some take bonuses and commissions into account, some don’t.

  13. What is your favorite way to get over a guy and deal with the pain?

    • S in Chicago :

      Book up my schedule until I have so much going on that my interests naturally go elsewhere. Gym, class to learn something about X, drinks with friends, volunteering, shopping, hosting dinner party, visiting family, offering to write/speak for professional group I belong to, packing commute time with books on tape, getting nails done, etc. There is only one time in life when you get to focus on yourself this much. Do everything you can not to waste a moment of it.

    • Find a man with a super-hot body and sleep with him a few times. The s#x will probably be awful but his 6-pack and gorgeous body will make up for that. Use a c*nd*m.

    • Take it one day (hour, five minutes, two minutes, 30 seconds) at a time. Remind myself that, no matter how much it hurts now, it WILL get better with time.

      I also try to be kind to myself–see friends, eat ice cream, go running, whatever will make me feel better in the moment.

      Hugs. Sorry you’re going through this. It sucks universally.

    • AttiredAttorney :

      In addition to the usual superficial things working out like crazy to look super hot to make him jealous, I’ve found that the “break up processing” template on Jenny Blake’s Life After College blog to be very helpful. We link to it below.

    • Seattleite :

      Immerse myself in all the little compromises made while we we together. He’s not crazy about that one singer? Buy her new album and play it LOUD. (Bonus points if she’s coming to town.) Eat all the foods he hates. Wear my comfy granny panties. Everytime I walk into the bathroom, say aloud, in a voice of wonder and joy, “Hey, look at that, THE SEAT IS DOWN.” Sign up for an exercise class and prepay so that I’ll actually go.

      And, if you can possibly afford it, go out of town for a few days for a change of scenery. Eat at the counter at open-kitchen restaurants so you won’t feel self-conscious about being alone.

  14. Equity's Darling :

    Happy Canada Day to all my Canadians!

    • Happy Canada Day! Unfortunately, I am stuck in the house doing house stuff all day today. Ah, the joys of home-ownership…

  15. Up to here :

    I don’t know if I’m looking for advice or just to vent, but I just feel like I could scream. I went to a concert with a friend this weekend. During the concert, I had to get up to use the bathroom. On my way back from the bathroom, a man walking in the opposite direction from me reached out and grabbed and squeezed my breast. I turned around and screamed at him, but he was in a group of men in a crowded area and I couldn’t even tell for sure which one had grabbed me. No one even looked back when I yelled.

    I hate that I can’t even go to the bathroom and back by myself without being assaulted. I hate how many times something like this has happened to me before, and will happen to me again. I hate that so many other women had something like this or worse happen to them last weekend. I hate that some men think it’s cute or funny to put their hands on a stranger in a s*xual manner. I hate that I get labeled as a b!tch or a prude for having a problem with a strange man grabbing me. I hate how powerless I was to do anything about it. I hate that I feel unsafe going out to a bar or club or concert or anywhere with drunken idiot men because I know there is a high likelihood that I will be assaulted. I hate that I went on a date earlier that day and my date couldn’t understand why I wouldn’t want to go to a bar by myself, because he does it all the time, but he supposes he’s probably more outgoing than I am. I hate that I’m still so ragey about this incident today, and the guy who did it is probably going on with his life like nothing happened.

    • Ugh, I’m so sorry that happened to you. That’s awful and you have every right to be upset.

    • I’m sorry. You are right to be rage-y.

    • Sydney Bristow :

      That is horrible! I’m really sorry that happened to you. Someone posted an article here recently that was about the Everyday Sexism Project. The website is everydaysexism.com. This really is a huge issue that you are absolutely not alone in dealing with.

    • I think all of your anger is totally valid, and honestly I think anger isn’t welcome enough in discussions about s*xual assault. I have actually been told not to go to the bathroom by myself, as the conclusion to a story about a woman being raped in a bathroom, and my reaction was the same as yours–outrage that this is the reality and that so many people accept it. I don’t think you should be at all upset with yourself for having such a logical reaction to a totally horrendous situation and norm.

      IME many survivors and others who feel this way about assault find it rewarding to volunteer in crisis intervention, whether in person or on phone lines. You may not be in a position to do this, but it’s one productive outlet that may be available to you. Beyond that, in general I just don’t think you should be at all muted or apologetic in feeling this way. For example, I often explain to men that the reason I won’t go to X place on my own is that it’s well-documented to be unsafe for women (not that I’m not “outgoing” or whatever). It’s one form of creating awareness, I believe, because 99% of the time they had no idea and they have no argument. I also express disgust at harassment and assault where often I notice other people preferring not to rock the boat.

    • momentsofabsurdity :

      That is horrible, and it’s awful that it happened to you. I would be incredibly angry as well.

      • Diana Barry :

        +1

      • Same, sharing the commiseration and the rage.

        There have been some good, constructive suggestions here, too. I second the comment about the value of a self-defense class, not only for teaching potentially useful moves but also for helping you feel confident in labeling harassment and speaking out. I dealt with a lot of street harassment in my younger, urban days — although nothing as severe as the actual assault you suffered — and I felt more empowered when I could say to a guy or group of guys “that is harassment, women don’t like it and I don’t like it, stop it.”

    • I’m really sorry that this happened to you.

      When I walk through crowds (esp of the bar/concert/etc variety), I keep my arms up in front of me (like a lower boxing stance). My elbows are about hip level, and my hands are about b**b level. It provides an automatic barrier to someone trying to grab me, it means my hands are at-the-ready to push someone back if someone gets shoved into me, or to engage if I need to defend myself against some sort of an unprovoked attack, and, frankly, it looks stand-off-ish, which I find to be useful. I’m sure a lot of people think I look strange making my way through a crowd like this, but ask me if I care :) My safety is more important than a stranger’s judgment.

    • The same thing happened to me at a party at a bar in college, except instead of grabbing my b**b, someone shoved his fingers into my jeans-covered ladyparts while I was trying to inch through the crowd to the restroom. I also turned and screamed but there was a cluster of them together and they all played dumb/fake innocent and laughed at me. Even worse was that the party was for a friend of a friend’s birthday, so the evil man who assaulted me was socially connected to me in some way. When I told my friends what happened, it caused a split in the social group between people who believed me and those who didn’t believe me or thought it was no big deal, and the size of the group on my side was significantly smaller. I second everything you said about how you’re feeling and all of your frustration and anger. I still feel that way a decade later. I still hate crowded venues and avoid them whenever possible because, as I found out, I can’t protect myself from being assaulted. It’s a devastating feeling.

      • This happened to me too when I was squatting down to get something out of the bottom of my locker in HS. I was so embarrassed and I never said anything to anyone about it. I’ve also had men grab my butt at a country club where I was a golfing. It is disgusting and I always feel totally powerless to stop it because if you say anything they just laugh. I wish I was strong enough to punch them in face.

        • I’m so angry that most (all?) of us have similar stories like this. I think the best thing that comes with age is that I no longer feel like you did in high school, Anon – that you’re too embarrassed to say anything. I don’t care if they laugh. I don’t care if people say it’s nbd and I should “calm down” and “be cool.” I am MAD and I am going to SCREAM IN YOUR F*CKING FACE! But I will not throw my $12 craft beer at you, because craft beer is a precious thing, and it, and the time I spent standing in line to get it, is worth more to me than you are. A$$hat.

          • Anonymous :

            I swear you have got to be one of my friends, because that last line.

            You have every right to be mad as hell. Also, I hope that you (and all of us) when you can remember to say something to a staff member of club/bar/etc. I regularly will complain if I see/experience some sort of assault (minor to major). They may not take me seriously, but they’ll take the gigantic man who throws them and their friends out, seriously. If nothing else, it a) makes me feel a bit vindicated b) makes me hopeful that they realize they were being jerks and c) keeps them from doing it to someone else that night.

        • momentsofabsurdity :

          I think the feeling of embarrassment is really common and you shouldn’t beat yourself up for feeling it, even if it’s a technically “incorrect” emotion to have. I have a friend who was violated this way while at a dance, and ended up *apologizing* to the guy when the dance ended. I think in many ways, we are culturally conditioned as women to over apologize to things, or make things our fault when they really are not. It’s not wrong to feel that way, but I think it’s good to be conscious of it and try not to give into it.

          OP, I’m glad you feel like you have been able to limit that tendency with age. I feel like I still have to instruct myself not to assume everything is my fault and not to be the person apologizing when someone knocks me over.

          Also +1 to craft beer being worth way more than these jerks.

      • I had a similar experience with a friend-of-friend perpetrator, leading to a bunch of my “friends” defending his actions and saying I was making things up or overreacting. It’s an absolutely terrible feeling, and for me it’s been more than 10 years since it happened.

        • Hugs, Monday. You’re not alone, and thank you for sharing that I am not alone either.

    • I’m so sorry. The whole issue of violence against women and casual street harassment makes me feel both helpless and rage-y, and I totally understand your feelings.
      This is a little off topic, but I took a self-defense class in college that was one of the best things I did when a student. It covered different techniques to get out of an assailant’s grip, ways to fight back (e.g. if your arms are pinned at your sides, use ankle kicks, head butts) and most importantly, how to yell and how to escape if ever in a dangerous situation. The class included a practical session at the end. I strongly recommend this to anyone interested. Krav Maga seems to be built on similar lines, though I have no personal experience.
      Back on topic – hope you do something nice today to relax and distract yourself. Maybe post where you are so someone can take you out for coffee or a drink?

      • FYI this was a RAD class and may be offered at a school near you. Highly recommend.

      • Thanks, you’re sweet, and if I weren’t mid-TRO (which makes me even madder – I billed over 80 hours last week and this was my ONLY couple of hours off all week!) I would try to get a drink with someone, even though I don’t think there’s anyone on here from my small nowhere town haha. I think I might look into that class once I come up for air though.

    • Blonde Lawyer :

      Just want to chime in with another “you are not alone.” My most memorable incidents:

      – high school best friend’s brother routinely found reasons to grab inappropriate places on me. She didn’t think it was that big of a deal. Friendship didn’t survive college because of that. Brother is still a creeper. Went to her wedding a year ago and he found a way to say something skeezy to me the 2 seconds my husband went to the bathroom. Our parents are still close otherwise I wouldn’t have been there. I never told my parents.

      – college party, random guy grabbed my butt and random friend of mine clocked him. Very impressed.

      – studying abroad in spain. Drunk dudes on scooters swerved and tried to grab me as they drove by. I tripped jumping away and twisted my ankle.

      – first job out of college working with at risk kids in the community. Delivering turkeys to families on my case load on christmas eve. A mom’s drunk boyfriend grabbed my butt ass I left the apartment. Decided it wasn’t worth going to the police but really ruined my holiday.

      – out with husband’s coworkers at his first law enforcement job. One of them took a bunch of pictures down my v-neck shirt. The others took away his memory card and told him how inappropriate it was but still – gross.

    • It’s so overwhelming sometimes (all the time) to know that men feel entitled to violate the bodies of any and all women, and almost always get away with it. I am glad you yelled at him. I second everyone who says that it’s empowering, at least to me, to be the “crazy” woman who calls them out on it. You are not obligated to, but maybe the more women who scream in their faces and plaster their faces on the internet (check out local Hollabacks if you haven’t), they’ll finally listen up. Solidarity. Hope the rest of your week is much better!

      • My sympathies to the OP; just awful.

        I share in the ragey feeling on your behalf.

        Part of the problem is that these creeps (correctly) assume that even if there are witnesses, most will not say anything, or some of them would even blame the woman. So the creeps feel empowered to act with impunity. Sometimes, all it takes is a few people to call them out, and that will make the creeps back down or think twice.

        I do hope that some of the anti-bullying stuff that’s being taught in schools will extend to these types of situations, but I’m not holding my breath. There is so much casual sexism that’s just accepted here in this culture that it’s appalling.

    • Silvercurls :

      +1 to everyone else’s expressions of sympathy and outrage. Nobody needs that nonsense and nobody is entitled to dish it out! OP, if you can’t pay it backwards (by retaliating at the schm*ck who attached you and the other bozos who stood by doing _nothing_) maybe you can pay it forward by empowering yourself or others. A self-defense class is one idea. Another might be supporting an organization that teaches self-preservation & street savviness to younger women. If there’s a younger person in your life (relative? friend? child of friend?) pass on the empowerment to her: tell her she doesn’t need to take this cr*p and help her learn ways to avoid / deflect / resist it (besides staying home all the time or wearing a burka).

      Story about Golda Meir: During a time when Israeli women (in Jerusalem? not sure…) were being hassled when walking around at night, somebody suggested giving the women a curfew for their own protection. Meir replied that it would be more useful if MEN were placed under curfew.

  16. So sorry that happened to you OP. Like everyone who responded, I have my own list of such incidents, probably the highlight of which is when someone pinched my butt on a crowded street when I was 12 (thanks for officially ending my innocent childhood, random stranger!) Can I just say that I am also blown away by how articulately and completely you expressed your rage (which I share)? Absolute YES to everything you said.

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