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Our daily workwear reports suggest one piece of work-appropriate attire in a range of prices.
It’s a Friday and spring is here, so I’m looking for T-shirts that are office-appropriate, but still comfy enough for weekends. This peplum tee from White House Black Market might be a little bit of a know-your-office situation because of the detailing around the bust, but I think the shape is gorgeous.
It comes in six colors, but I love this olive green as an unexpected neutral.
The top is $29, marked down from $56.50, at White House Black Market and comes in sizes XXS-XXL.
Sales of note for 8.30.24
- Nordstrom – Summer Sale, save up to 60%
- Ann Taylor – 30% off full-price purchase; $99 jackets, dresses & shoes; extra 50% off sale
- Banana Republic Factory – 50-70% off everything + extra 20% off
- Bergdorf Goodman – Final Days Designer Sale, up to 75% off; extra 20% off sale
- Boden – 20% off
- Brooks Brothers – Extra 25% off clearance
- Eloquii – Up to 60% off everything; extra 60% off all sale
- J.Crew – 40% off sitewide; extra 60% off sale styles
- J.Crew Factory – Extra 20% off orders $125+; extra 60% off clearance; 60%-70% off 100s of styles
- Lo & Sons – Summer sale, up to 50% off (ends 9/2)
- Madewell – Extra 40% off sale; extra 50% off select denim; 25% off fall essentials
- M.M.LaFleur – Save 25% sitewide
- Rothy's – End of season sale, up to 50% off
- Spanx – Lots of workwear in the big sale, some up to 70% off
- Talbots – 25% off regular-price purchase; 70% off clearance
- White House Black Market – Up to 70% off sale
Anon
This looks like the lining to some other garment.
Anon
+1
Anonymous
Agreed.
Anon
Yet I would wear it as a casual T. It’s interesting.
Anon
Where are we living bathing suits these days? I have some alarmingly durable pieces that are just not flattering in 2024: I’ve gone up a size and they cut across the midpoint of my monster hips (a higher leg opening looks so much better but pls no cheeky cuts). I tried a black one-piece from the LLB/Summersalt collection that is good to great but I have a short torso and it’s a bit baggy due to length. Open to high-waist 2-pieces and I need some bust shaping / padding.
Anon
LOVING. Need caffeine.
Anon
Following with interest.
My current go-to is an okayish Athleta one piece from two season ago. As a long torso pear with a small bust, I find it snug in the leg openings (although not cheeky) and a bit more loose up top than I like. If I could go up a size for the bottom half and down a size for the top, it would be perfect. I struggle finding one pieces that are long enough for my torso, big enough for my bottom half without being floppy on top.
Cat
FYI JCrew offers long torso in many (though not all) of their one piece styles. They aren’t quite as durable as some other brands but last me 2-3 summers of heavy rotation, which is good enough cost per wear IMHO since you can always find them on sale.
Anon
I swear by the Kona Sol line at Target. Now’s the best time to shop, when there’s a fair amount of stock in store and you can try on many styles/sizes. The quality is excellent.
Anon
I absolutely love the sporty styles at Nani, but the lack of sewn-in lining is a dealbreaker. Those stupid removable ones are unwieldy and never stay put. Anyone know of a similar brand with sewn in?
BeenThatGuy
I love my Nani bathing suits (probably because I hate sewn-in cups!). I’m also loving Kiava swimwear and Seafolly.
Anon
Well, I’d be fine without the sewn in cups if the fabric could prevent show through. I don’t need them for a boost in size, quite the opposite, but I hate really obvious show through.
Anonymous
I have a long torso and found Andie to be too short (and otherwise cute!), so they may work for you.
Anon
My Land’s End bathing suit won’t die. I actually want it to die so I can justify buying a new once, since I’ve had it for 10 years and I’m tired of it! But it just lasts and lasts.
Anon
Same but I am regretting the modest leg openings. It just isn’t flattering on me.
Cat
Girl, it’s been 10 years. You can buy a new swimsuit.
OP
LOL, I know, but I wear it once or twice a year at most so it doesn’t seem worth it.
Anonymous
If you don’t wear it often, honestly I’d just go to Target and find something you don’t mind that doesn’t cost much. Swim fabric with all the elastic bits inherently doesn’t hold up that well over time in many cases.
Anon
Same but with a JCrew suit from 2012! I’m getting a new one this year for sure
Anon
Athleta. I like the top linked below paired with a rashguard and a variety of their bottoms. I buy different patterns/colors and mix and match.
https://athleta.gap.com/browse/product.do?pid=530951002&cid=1132101&pcid=1031353&vid=1&nav=meganav%3ASwim%3ACATEGORIES%3AAll+Swim#pdp-page-contentAthleta. I like this top
Cat
Tommy Bahama does a nice job of being reasonable coverage but not dowdy. They have one pieces and tankinis.
Trixie
As a short person, I have had good luck getting swim suits tailored–really. Shortening straps, taking in the mid section, etc. really helps!
Anon
I was thinking that this was extra but hemming a tankini top would look so much better than a too-long one. On me at least.
Anonymous
If you had to make a drastic decision, would you sell a modest home with a mortgage payment lower than rent or drain retirement funds?
Anon
Drain retirement funds all day long. You can replace those, you can’t get your house situation back.
Flats Only
Use retirement funds. But first explore home equity loan on the modest home. It may be worth more than you think. If you remain employed, with the home you have a) a place to live, and b) a chance to save to rebuild the retirement fund since your mortgage is low. Need more details on the circumstances, but there might be other options too – negotiate the debt down, bankruptcy.
go for it
Drain the retirement
Anonymous
I swapped to swim shorts and tankinis three years ago and will never go back. I can bend, stretch, jump, chase kids, and feel comfortable going straight to a restaurant without packing a cover up. I love the Makani style from Athleta, Title Nine has a good variety, I’ve found them on Amazon for $20.
Senior Attorney
Swim shorts FTW! Also solves the “bikini line” problem.
Anonymous
I love both Andie and Summersalt, but the Andie suits are shorter in the torso. I like the Malibu style that snaps up the front and can adjust from modest to less so. The Andie cups are not sewn in and the suits dry slower than Summersalt (cups sewn in), but I like the Malibu style so much I have it in two colors. I take a medium in Andie and size 8 in Summersalt (5’4”, 138 lbs, pear shaped).
Lexi
Thanks for this. Have been on the fence re Andie because haven’t seen a lot of reviews. Will try it out!
anon
Andie suits are very high quality. I will say, though, that I have a long torso and even their long torso suits aren’t quiiite long enough. I probably should’ve sized up. Be aware that some of their styles are a bit cheeky. I love the Malibu style, though.
NaoNao
Boden! Their two piece I got 5+ years ago has not pilled one bit, is the only 2 piece I own that’s genuinely flattering, and as a bonus it’s super cute/full coverage. They have supportive br*-sized tops as well. I LOVE them.
Old Navy also makes some cheapie “just for one season” more trendy stuff, so for $25.00 or so you can splash out (heh) on trying out various colors/prints.
Housecounsel
I love the Conscious Crop top and high waisted bottoms from Athleta.
Anony
I’ve always had trouble finding non-frumpy suits that fit well, but lately I’ve had really good luck with Andie. They’re really great at high-waisted two piece styles.
Anonymous
I like Anne Cole, Gottex and Tommy Bahama. I look for past season sales at RueLaLa or the Rack.
Laura
Try the Kona Sol line at Target – I have multiple styles that I’m really happy with.
Anonymous
I like the Athleta full-coverage bottoms and the square br* or longline tops.
Anonymous
This may not be helpful, but I really try to minimize sun exposure and wear a swim shirt most of the day. With the swim shirt, I pick bikini pieces which are a lot easier to fit (and use the bathroom in!)
Josie P
Morning ladies – I picked up this jacket (or v similar) at T J X and am wondering whether I should keep it – how would you style it? I got it because it’s SHINY :) but not sure where I would wear it IRL.
Josie P
https://alcltd.com/products/davin-ii-jacket-disco-pink
Anon
My younger colleagues would wear this to the office with black Brooklyns, a white tank, and fashion sneakers.
Thistle whistle
I’d wear this with black, but if that seems a little too much (some people dont seem to like bright pink with black because of the sharp contrast), wear it with navy or even pale grey. I loved my bright pink, slightly sheeny pink jacket (when it fitted) and wore it with lot of black, grey or even plum work trousers.
Anon
I’d wear it with light blue denim and a white top.
Shelle
I love this! It screams “summer nights” which I am so ready for. I’d pair it with a mini skirt and strappy shoes because I love mixing a menswear inspired piece with something very feminine and flirty.
Anon
Olive green linen pants & a white tank; wide legged jeans; drapey gray or navy trousers for work….
Senior Attorney
OMG love!
I saw somebody wearing this to host/judge a cooking competition show on Netflix, so there’s that.
Also I would wear it out to dinner/show/drinks ALL THE TIME. I have a jacket this color but not shiny and I like it with white or black bottoms or denim. It’s also surprisingly good with olive.
Anonymous
I missed the thread yesterday about birth rates. I guess I just don’t understand the hysteria about dropping birth rates. Many issues in our society have to do with overpopulation: housing scarcity, environmental damage, lack of funding for social programs like education and healthcare, job obsolescence, the list goes on. Seems like fewer people in the world will be a huge positive for future generations. I understand fewer young people also means that there will be fewer resources to provide for older people as we have a rapidly expanding aging population, but I’ve been hearing about that issue since I was old enough to read a paper. Everyone has known for decades that the boomers would overwhelm social systems as they age. Surely we as a society, and individuals personally, have planned for this well-known eventuality? The plan hasn’t just been, let the younger generation deal with it?
Anon
Well, that has been the plan, just not a good one…
One thing some of those articles don’t touch on is mate selection. Women have only gotten more educated (and more rights) and aren’t settling for marriage and kids with horrible, abusive men due to lack of options. Many young men today aren’t attractive mates – bitter, under or unemployed, addicted to p*rn, living with their parents in greater numbers than ever, entitled. Decent men will continue to have no problem finding wives and having children, but there is no world in which women should settle for burgeoning incels. They need to fix themselves if they want to have children with willing partners.
Anonymous
Agree also, as someone who was married at 30 I’m really resentful of the idea that I should have gotten married earlier so as to have more kids or an easier time having them. There weren’t a ton of appropriate men itching to get married in their early and mid twenties. I feel like getting married young is such a privilege and people are really smug about it.
Anon
I think women who get married are lucky to have found someone they want to marry at that age but it could also be a huge mistake! I would never encourage someone to get married younger than 25. People change so much!
Anon
I was married in my mid 20s and remarried a decade later…and I was shocked at the number of mid to late 30s (single, never married) men I encountered on dating apps, who had no plans to ever marry or have kids! But yet, women are a convenient scapegoat…
Anon
Yes and also the early-mid 40s men who DID plan to marry and have kids “someday” but “not yet”. Then when??
Anon
Given that almost everyone who gets married, ends up marrying someone within about three years of their own age… I wish we would dispense with the idea that men don’t have a timeline, either. It’s sad to see men believe the lie that they can “just” get a 30 year old wife when they are 50.
And maybe have better conversations with young men about what a modern marriage looks like.
Anony
I totally agree, but I would also add: having a great partner is THE BEST, and to the extent that my age eventually contributed to my infertility (it didn’t cause it – it was very clearly a preexisting problem – but sure, it didn’t make it easier when we eventually ended up doing IVF), doing it with my husband and not the ex-boyfriends of my 20s was worth every shitty part.
Anonymous
Dropping birth rates is a very good thing in my view. However my day job is not in capitalism like 95% of posters here. We have too many humans consuming way too much and consuming especially harmful stuff. Fixing the world requires selflessness though so it’s not going to happen, much easier to do what you want, have babies, and dump the problems on them.
Anon
There was a WSJ article about WVA, where there is an aging and rural population. People die on a waitlist for in-home care because there aren’t enough workers. Over time, this will likely become many places. Can robots change adult diapers and cook meals? I hope so because I may likely need them.
Anon
Since the 1950s, people have moved away from small towns and rural America. It’s not just declining birth rates. There’s a huge rural brain drain. I saw this in my own family. Much of the rural midwest was populated by immigrants lured by free/cheap land. Now, their grandkids don’t want to live in tiny towns without job or educational opportunities. WV obviously has suffered from the decline of coal mining.
Seventh Sister
I joke that my relatives (Swiss German) were lured to rural America by the promise of flat land but were too stupid to ask follow-up questions like, is there water? Who used to live here? What’s a tornado?
A hundred years ago, all of my grandparents were kids living in rural KS, OK, or smallish towns in those states with large extended families. Now I have a handful of cousins who live in those states. The opportunities of the mid and late twentieth century were on the coasts.
Anon
Not just change diapers and cook meals: fix the plumbing when the toilet is clogged, repair the car used for the social outings, do the dishes, do the laundry, all that.
Anon
Immigrants have revitalized some dying towns. See Garden City, KS.
Seventh Sister
I think this kind of thing is fascinating, but I think it doesn’t get a lot of airtime because it isn’t a narrative that fits neatly into either a red or blue worldview. There are now three or four Mexican restaurants in the tiny rural town where my aunt taught school for 50 years. About a quarter of the residents are Latino. The economy isn’t great but the cost of living is cheap and it’s pretty safe out there.
NYNY
Immigration is really the answer to the WV problem. But the political climate of the states that need immigrant labor the most is so hostile to immigrants. I wish I knew how to fix that. In the long term, I think the red rural states will see some influx of immigrants and young Americans looking for lower cost of living, and it’s going to transform the politics of those states over time. But not quickly enough to save people there now in need of care.
anon
I tend to agree with this. Yeah, lower birth rates are bad for the economy. But I really think that continuing to grow the world’s population at the rate we have isn’t smart, either.
Anon
Yes… ultimately the economy is an easier fix than all the ramifications and fall out of continuing to grow the world’s population at this rate. We made up the economy and can make up a new one. We can’t multiply finite resources out of thin air.
anon
I think a lot of people don’t have babies BECAUSE they’re selfish. They don’t want to give up vacations and free time and disposable income. That’s true in my friend group anyway.
Anonymous
No having babies in a dying planet is selfish
anon
Eh think what you want but by many accounts the planet is healthier than it was in the 1970s.
If you want the human race to die out that’s fine, but I certainly hope you don’t need a human being to help you when you’re old!
Anon
Sound like a troll to me
Anon
Sounds like you have a very privileged friend group! My friend group is more likely to not be able to afford kids due to crippling student loan debt. I wonder which experience is more common in the US…
anon
Your friend group just doesn’t want kids then. Which is fine, but kids are honestly not as expensive as people make them out to be. I have 3.
Anonymous
I have 3 and find it’s even more expensive than I thought– and I have a high HHI
Anon
I’ve heard people who have $5M saved (and no other debt) by age 40 say they never had kids because they “couldn’t afford it.”
Anon
Amen. To an extent, kids are as expensive as you make them. They do not need “every opportunity” and if all those friends have college degrees and live somewhere with just two bedrooms and one bath, they have space and more resources than many who have kids! If they don’t want them, totally their prerogative. But this is largely a cop-out.
Anon
Most Americans don’t have $500 saved for an unexpected medical bill or car repair…
Anon
Anon at 11:58 am – I know and I agree! That’s why I find it so irksome.
Anon
I agree. It’s not the sole reason but certainly a factor.
Anonymous
I mean, I don’t have kids in part because I don’t want to give up those things (also because I just don’t want to be a mother), but I don’t think it makes me selfish to have a kid I don’t want. How am I being inconsiderate of a non-existent person?
Anonymous
*to not have
Anonymous
Not being able to access in-home care at the times you want is already the norm in most metropolitan areas, by the way.
Anon
Housing scarcity is IMHO due to not building enough housing where needed and also luxury zoning (eg only SF houses and not duplexes or quads).
Anon
Housing scarcity/price gouging is due to PE buying up almost half the housing stock.
There’s also been huge lifestyle creep; when the boomers were young, middle class houses were 3bd/1bth, many without a garage. Now many people would not consider such a small home.
Anonymous
True. When I told a partner at my law firm that I bought a 2/2, as a single woman with a dog, he visibly shuddered
Anon
I bought a 2/2 condo as a single woman in my VHCOL city (top 2 most expensive for housing in the US), and people were amazed I found a unit with more than 1 bath.
Anon
Re. the lifestyle creep, people keep referring to my 2bd/1bth home as a “starter home” or suggesting upgrades that would be “better investments.” I can see myself appreciating more space and a second bathroom, but sometimes I have to remind myself: it’s bigger than an apartment (we have an attic and a basement and a yard!), we’re only two people with no kids, we can pay the mortgage on the lower paying partner’s income (so maybe it’s not as good an investment, but it’s a secure one), and we live in an urban downtown with a lot of third spaces. I think this would be considered a pretty big space in a European downtown! Our quality of life is not bad! But there is definite pressure to grow up and get a grown up house.
Anon
There is plenty of luxe options if you have money and no one is building affordable workforce housing.
Anon
Fewer people means fewer workers; fewer workers means a declining economy. One of the reasons for the success of the American economy is the constant influx of immigrants (despite what you hear about the border). So yes, we can import workers to keep the economy afloat, if we don’t vote against that option.
anon
+1
This is the way.
Japan has been the model for decline of the economy due to a shift to fewer kids for many years now. Their xenophobia led to not enough young people to fill the gap.
Anon
If you plan to have social security benefits when you become disabled or retired, you need younger workers paying into the fund. What you have put in is not sitting there for you. It does not work that way. Today’s workers pay for today’s beneficiaries – and it has been that way since day one.
If you expect there to be workers to support the economy or to care for you in the hospital when you get older, we need younger workers.
One of the solutions is to allow more immigration but that’s a political third rail, a lot like social security altogether.
Anonymous
Exactly.
Anon
It’s bad for the economy. You also cannot really plan for a healthcare shortage when you’re old and need it, unless the plan is to take what you can get and suffer until you die.
Cat
super simplistic: what’s good for the environment and some other problems (like housing) is not good for the overall picture of the economy. of course it keeps growing if there are more and more people buying things.
Anon
You think Social Security and Medicare will be better funded with fewer young people???
Anon
Lots of people reference “economic decline,” but long term, that doesn’t just mean some abstract drop in GDP. It means labor shortages, which have various impacts depending on what sector is hit hardest. It means a smaller tax base, so governments start having to cut services. It means a less vibrant innovation sector, because most innovation is driven by the young. Now, if you can increase worker productivity, you can blunt some of these impacts and avoid a male hit to standard of living, but that’s a big if.
When the elderly begin to dominate a society, government services are also focused on serving their needs, not those of children and families, which in turn makes reinforces the difficulty of raising children in that society. You see this at a small scale in towns in places like Florida that are retiree dominated – investment in schools is low, there are very limited public programs/facilities for kids, etc. Even medical care becomes elderly focused (I was visiting my in laws in their retiree heavy Florida town, and the local CVS didn’t have prescription morning sickness medication on hand “we just doing really see pregnant women”).
Beyond the economy, I think a society that is heavily aging is less likely to be future oriented, especially as more of those aging people are childless. The knowledge that you are leaving the world to your descendants does motivate many people to care about what that future world is like.
Anon
*major hit to standard of living, not male hit
Anon
This exactly.
Anon
They keep saying AI will help with the labor shortages. It’s certainly taking jobs already. Will that not help?
It continues amaze to me that governments care so little about chronic illness and disability in the young if they’re relying on young people to meet the needs of the old. Young people who need caretaking themselves are not going to be able to help.
I’m not seeing the evidence that past generations who had lots of kids were motivated to care about what the future world looked like. They really kicked a lot of cans down the road, knowing what they were doing all the while! The attitude seems to have been “eh the kids will figure it out for themselves” in so many different arenas.
Anon
AI is great for labor shortages in the laptop class. AI is not able to unclog a toilet in a public school, replace a downed power line, or lift a sick person from her bed in a rehab facility and help her use the toilet and dress.
Anon
Right, but it frees up human beings with bodies to do those other things, right?
Anon
No. It seems to be outsourcing the least skilled workers and even with eldercare, you need a executive functioning and judgment and strength even if you don’t need much in the way of formal credentials. I don’t think it’s an easy swap.
anonshmanon
It could very hypothetically free me up from my job which is writing emails and making spreadsheets. We have not solved the question of whether I want to be a plumber instead or when a job caring for seniors will get compensation and recognition equivalent to my important-sounding desk job.
Anon
The judgment / ethics criterion has come up a lot for people I know (way too many caregivers who steal meds for just one example; this should not be something that comes up repeatedly in one person’s circle!).
Anon
AI isnt going to help with the jobs old people need doing. They need their food grown, trucked to the supermarket, put in shelves, and loaded into their cars; plumbers, mechanics, and electricians; surgeons and nurses; and cooks, house cleaners, etc.
So no, AI isn’t going to help an aging society when it creates a new song or makes a weird painting. I guess it might free up smart people to mop the floors, though….
Anecdata
AI isn’t just equal to “generative chatbots” though – a lot of those tasks (mopping floors, stocking shelves, helping you out of bed) are potentially helped with AI advances in robotics
Anon
Who is going to remind people to turn off the burner? Or to use the oven mitt when taking things out of the stove? Or stop them from driving on tires that are flat (b/c they haven’t driven in a year but now think that they need to drive to their childhood home to see their sister before she goes off to college, when the sister is now a grandmother and in a care home)? We gonna need some better robots, not some AI song.
Anon
Potentially helped. Potentially.
Are you willing to risk your well- being in your retirement years on that?
And who makes scientific advances? I thought it was generally younger people. Fewer younger people = radically reduced innovation.
You can’t just assume that innovation will continue at the same pace, despite the lack of innovators.
Anon
I think birth rates in the wealthy countries are generally declining and birth rates in developing countries are going up. So basically the planet has too many humans on the whole, but certain countries won’t have enough.
txatty
Which means developed countries are going to have to accept immigration and, hopefully, implement humane immigration policies.
Anon
Will those immigrants hold our values of equality, free speech, commitment to religious tolerance (including secularism), and the like?
Anonymous
I have found that many immigrants hold those values more strongly than many Americans, since they oftne come from countries that don’t have those things.
Anon
I have found that it goes both ways. Many think they value free speech, but they just mean “less draconian than our laws.” Same with equality or environmental protections or anything else.
Anon
Yes, they will appreciate civil rights probably more than Americans who take it for granted.
Naturalized Americans vote at higher rates than native born citizens.
It’s wild to think that people fleeing oppressive regimes / violence / crime will somehow become what they feared here.
Anon
Yes, they will appreciate civil rights probably more than Americans who take it for granted.
Naturalized Americans vote at higher rates than native born citizens.
It’s wild to think that people fleeing oppressive regimes / violence / crime will somehow become what they feared here.
Anon
Going up in very few Asian countries, eg Philippines. India has now fallen below replacement rate. Africa is still increasing.
Anonymous
Yes, the plan of the older generation is always to let the younger generation deal with it. I remember from my into poli sci course that in polls younger people support programs to help older people because they see that they will benefit someday, but older people do not support programs to help younger generations such as child care and education because they do not see the benefits for themselves. Humans are short-sighted and selfish. The design of our political and economic systems just reinforces this tendency.
Anon
If there’s more to go around, there’s more to go around… unless somebody’s hoarding it.
The economy we have originated in a time when caretaking was regarded as “women’s work” and therefore unpaid and taken for granted. Now it’s very poorly paid and an afterthought.
Anon
Yeah, a society where our entire childcare and elder care plan is “keep getting women to do it for free” was destined to run into problems.
Anon
Yes, exactly. I understand why a declining birth rate is a problem, but I’m a 38 (soon to be 39) year old woman who doesn’t have kids, and doesn’t plan on having them. I’m already on the hook for my parents’ care as they age, and while I could (now) afford children, I’d be making career sacrifices to be a mother when I have never felt compelled to have children.
To the posters who are saying not having children is selfish – so is having children. Both are decisions that people make because they think that it will make them happy/bring them enjoyment out of life.
Anonymous
“To the posters who are saying not having children is selfish – so is having children. Both are decisions that people make because they think that it will make them happy/bring them enjoyment out of life.“
Absolutely agree!
Anon
When you’re 80, my kid might be your surgeon. Your lack of kid isn’t going to be helping me.
anonshmanon
And my taxes are helping your kid get their medical degree. And I am happy to pay.
Anon
Your taxes don’t create human beings.
You aren’t up at 2 am with a puking toddler. You weren’t pregnant. You don’t worry at night about the well being of a small person. You aren’t researching the best schools or teaching handwriting or giving out hugs or reading endlessly.
Other people paid for you. My taxes also pay for my kid.
Anon
I’m the anon at 11:38, and anon at 11:58’s take is wild to me. Are your children just transactional to you? Because it sure seems like that may be the case. And that to me, sounds really, really sad for everyone involved. Or are just my hypothetical lack of children transactional to you? Because as others have noted – I’m contributing to systems that help support your kid (and I’m advocating for more of those systems).
Anon
Your kid may also end up needing more support that she or he will contribute to society. This is a straw man.
Anon
If you’re attacking me for pointing out that parenthood has external benefits, I can’t help you.
anonshmanon
I am just failing to understand what your goal is here. I think children are the future obviously, and good for you if you want them and can have them. I hope there is some joy between all that hard work that you list. I don’t know what unspoken attacks you are getting defensive against here but I guess your stance is not coming out of nowhere.
Your arguments seem to imply that your way of life is the only way to be valuable to society, and I find that view quite limiting. I have something to give to this world, and so will you after your childbearing years.
Anon
So domestically, falling birth rates are bad for our economy. Not just in a need for infinite capitalistic growth (which I hate – I’m a public servant and there’s a lot I hate about corporate greed), but as stated elsewhere on this thread – it will harm social safety nets, there will be labor shortages in key sectors, and it will harm innovation. In the US issues like housing shortages, people going hungry, and other quality of life issues are largely artificial; they could be fixed with the resources we have but they are not because it’s not profitable to do so.
Environmentally, population and consumption are major global issues. However, globally this is a tragedy of the commons. There are finite resources and humanity as a whole is incentivized to change our ways to protect the planet, but no one country is incentivized to do so (it’s expensive, politically unpopular, and will weaken that country in the short and medium term). The countries that are causing the most environmental issues (China, India) have no incentive to change their ways and so they won’t. Therefore, if the US encourages a dropping birth rate we just “lose” domestically and internationally without making a big enough dent in the larger global issue.
Geopolitically, the US is declining and countries like China will absolutely pounce on any additional weakness. If China continues to get stronger, and the US continues to get weaker, no one here will like the new world order. It’s likely inevitable anyway, but we all have a vested interest in preventing it as long as we can.
Autocratic countries (Russia, China) have no issue cutting off their nose to spite their face – the elites in those countries won’t suffer the implications of climate change the way that the rank and file will. Look at the war in Ukraine – Putin is not suffering the consequences the way that everyday Russians are so he dgaf.
As the US birthrate falls and our economy suffers we will fall behind these newly powerful countries and will sadly be worse off for it. For example, a smaller population with a weaker economy is a lot less powerful internationally – our military already had a huge recruiting problem (which is partially self imposed but that’s another discussion). As birth rate falls there are less eligible individuals of military age. The defense budget (which yes is generally considered to be bloated, but that high budget also acts as a deterrent) will drop as the tax base drops. Suddenly the US is no longer a powerful war machine but an “easy” target for a stronger China.
I recognize that China has had its own birth rate issues and is dealing with the fall out of its former one child policy, however, in an autocratic country the powerful can take much more drastic measures during a time of crisis than we can here.
Anon
I don’t know that the military problem is self-imposed. If anything, they can’t lower their standards fast enough, which I don’t think we want. And I don’t think we or the military wants a draft. Draftees did a fine job in Vietnam, but I think we prefer a military of people who want to be there.
But passing even a basic fitness test is a big recruiting problem (and likely a looming public health problem b/c medicare and medicaid will ultimately deal with much of this). I blame youth elite sports making it elite-$$$ or nothing as what the choice winds up being, along with screens just wrecking youth mentally and physically (actually all adults).
Anon
Self imposed in that there are serious quality of life issues in the military, especially among junior enlisted. For example, under a certain rank of you’re unmarried you have to live in barracks. Many instillations have barracks with mold issues that aren’t being fixed. Many bases don’t offer chow on weekends or offer it at such limited times / locations it’s really inconvenient.
The garrison op tempo is really high still and puts a huge strain on family life.
Childcare on bases is very limited and can be hard to get. Off base childcare doesn’t open early enough for servicemembers to drop off kids before early morning PT.
Junior enlisted salaried are paltry but also due to scheduling issues listed above and frequent PCSing it’s hard for a non-military spouse to work outside the home. The military is really still set up for one service member + a stay at home spouse. However, financially this isn’t practical. Also, socially things have changed. Service members are married to each other or civilian spouses may WANT to work but find it hard.
Previously many military brats joined the military themselves, however many are actively discouraged by their parents from joining or they look back to their childhoods and don’t want that life themselves (back to back to back deployments in an unwinable war?)
I 100% agree that the fact that many 18 year olds can’t pass the PT test or the ASVAB is an issue both for the military and the country as a whole. However, medical standards to join the military are woefully out of date. For example, it’s nearly impossible to join with a history of mental illness or ADHD. Now that mental illness is more commonly accepted and more commonly diagnosed, plenty of individuals who would be fine in the military and 15 years ago, would never have had a diagnosis and would’ve had no problems getting in, are now barred from service. Previously, recruiters would instruct potential recruits to lie about ADHD, for example. Now with electronic records, that is not possible.
Anon
Yes, I’m going to say the quiet part out loud, but you put it a lot better than I did: a declining birth rate is only “good” for the planet if it’s declining everywhere. If it’s only declining in wealthy, democratic countries…well that’s pretty bad.
Anon
When the birth rates decline in places that have robust environmental protections and planet-friendly innovation, but stay steady or rise in places that DGAF, it will not improve matters.
Anon
“Surely we as a society, and individuals personally, have planned for this well-known eventuality?”
Lololol. In my town the boomers still so strongly oppose any efforts by the local government to make this place more affordable for anyone not receiving a government pension. I don’t know who they think will wipe their butts when they’re all in the nursing home they voted to spend tax dollars on.
Anonymous
Lolol. In my town, all the progressive Gen X or whatever think that everyone else should pay for what they want instead of doing anything themselves.
Cerulean
Gen X and millennials are the bulk of people of working age now, so how is that possible?
Anon
There’s a lot of calls for subsidized childcare!
Cerulean
Subsidized childcare is for working parents. Not sure how that’s indicative of not doing anything themselves.
Anonymous
The “hysteria” is due to people don’t like change, articles sowing panic about population declines are popular, and most people suffer from a lack of imagination. It’s a fact that people in some countries continue to have fewer babies, and there seems to be a correlation between improved economics and population decline.
What we have is a tremendous opportunity to eventually lower overall population while creating a better life for everyone. For example, use of AI will reduce the number of fast food workers. This must be taken as an opportunity to deploy this human capital in other areas, preferably at least semi-skilled where they will earn more by providing necessary services. There are plenty of people who’d like to work but can’t due to discrimination — age, disability, etc. When labor is in short supply, companies suddenly find a way to hire these people.
The tricky part will be planning how we replace employer paid social security and Medicare tax. I firmly believe that companies should be required to pay these taxes for five years for every job they offshore. The same should be true for AI. I’m not a tax and policy expert, but we should demand this thinking of our elected leaders.
I find all the doom and gloom the out put of thinking that “thongs are this way, they’ve always been this way, and they always will be.” That’s simply not true.
Anonymous
The other piece is that due to better healthcare, at least in the Medicaid expansion states, workers in non physically demanding jobs willbe able to work longer.
Anonymous
The biggest causes of declining birth rates among educated American women are lack of suitable men and runaway COL including housing and college costs.
Anonymous
Please cite your sources for the “biggest causes.” It appears that the causes are many, and also interconnected. I hypothesize that sometimes people give “reasons” because it’s more acceptable than saying they just don’t want to.
Anon
I definitely think cost of living is a factor in declining birth rates. Pretty much everyone I know would be more open to additional kids if daycare and college weren’t so expensive. It doesn’t mean it’s the ultimate factor for everyone, but if nearly everyone is thinking about it, surely some people are basing their decisions on it.
Anonymous
This is a question I’ve pulled on my husband a few times. The conversation eventually devolves into me creating a hypothetical society where people after a certain age are… gone. Like in the Giver.
Anon
Wait, what?? Like that Zeke Emanuel essay?
anon88
How long do you expect your personal laptop to last? I’ve had my Macbook air since 2020 and it’s starting to crash all the time, and the battery dies when it’s at 20-30%. I’ve been considering upgrading and selling/trading in this one, but I don’t know how responsible of a financial decision it is…I use my laptop for writing/homework and internet browsing mostly, so nothing too taxing, but I really don’t want to lose any writing work (yes it is backed up). I do have the money for a new one, but of course $1000 is not nothing. Obviously very subjective, but what would you do?
Anon
I think they’re made crappy on purpose to only last a few years.
Cat
I am only on my third personal laptop since 2005, though am not a heavy user (emails, internet, photo storage with cloud backup, etc).
Anon
Honestly if you’re not using it for photo/media/design work I don’t understand why people use Macs. They are infamous for being buggy and having battery life and longevity issues.
I’d go with a thinkpad, whatever version consumer reports/tech blogs recommend. That’s what I’ve used for almost my entire career in consulting and they’re tanks that give you very few problems.
anon
Agree with you 100% on Macs. And honestly, I do some design work, and today’s PCs are much much better than they were 10, 15, and 20 years ago. You don’t NEED a Mac for design.
Anonymous
My experience has been the opposite. I switched to Macs at home and work after a long series of Windows machines from several manufacturers that had all sorts of odd hardware and software problems. When I worked in IT back in the aughts Windows was more reliable than MacOS but the hardware was about the same. These days Macs are much more reliable on both counts. I would expect to get 3-4 years out of any laptop, maybe more from a Mac that was properly maintained and not used for anything computationally or graphically intensive.
Anon
I’ve had the exact opposite experience. My Macs are trouble free and anything not Apple has been junk in a year or less.
AnonNL
+1. I was very resistant to Macbook for years as I didn’t want to pay the price tag for basically ‘just the logo’. However, I got one few years back and I am never going back to anything else. Boots fast, works fast, zero issues and I work with photo/video editing [not for work].
My previous work laptops don’t come anywhere close to Mac’s performance.
Anon
That logo is a status symbol and Apple is an extremely good at marketing. That’s about it.
Eliza
This has not been my experience. Over the years, the PCs in our family have failed at twice the rate of our Macs, even with similar use patterns. My last Mac was at least 8 years old when I replaced it with my current Mac, which is 5 years old and ticking right along without a hiccup.
Anon
This is the exact opposite of what they’re known for.
HSAL
I would take it in to have it checked out because that seems like a very short lifespan. My last MacBook Air lasted from 2014 to 2021.
Anon
Me too, I just replaced my 2011 Macbook Air because it was too slow. I did have to replace the battery several years ago, but it cost $80.
Anon
I also had my previous macbook air from 2012 to 2021. I did get the battery changed once. It worked great until Mac upgraded their OS and it wasn’t compatible and then everything crashed.
Anon.
I use my laptop for work and bought it in 2019. Once I replaced the battery, I’v had no issues at all.
Anecdata
On the crashing all the time – I’d make sure I have disk space, update OS and all my apps, and run an anti virus scan (low hanging software issues), and if that didn’t fix it, buy a new one. Hardware issues that cause crashing just get worse over time.
SMC- San DIego
You can get the battery replaced at the Apple store for not a lot of money. We did that with my daughter’s laptop and it bought us another two years.
anon88
Thanks y’all. I can get distracted by shiny new things, and my other macbooks have lasted a lot longer than this, so I think I’ll get the battery replaced and do some troubleshooting on the crashing issue. I’m thinking it might be a memory issue…
Anonymous
I would iron out the crashing before investing in a new battery. I’d start by looking for memory hog programs running in the background and ensuring that there is enough hard drive space for the swap files. A more drastic step is a clean install of MacOS.
And of course make sure all your files are backed up before you start tinkering.
anon88
good point, thank you!
Anon
I took mine to the genius bar and they were able to run a lot of diagnostics and talk to me honestly about whether the battery replacement would be worth it (it was!).
Anon
I’m on year 8 of a Lenovo, and zero problems. Expect at least another 2 with this laptop and in general would be very surprised by a personal laptop lasting less than 6 years. Never a Mac user so can’t speak to that.
Anon
+1, seven years and going strong with my Lenovo from Costco. Not a heavy user admittedly but it still works great.
Anon
We’ve had Macs last 10+ years, but I also have an Asus that was half the price that’s going strong at year 8. I’ll never buy a Mac again.
Anonymous
I expect 5.5 years, and consider anything beyond that a bonus.
Anon
I just bought a new MacBook to replace one I got in 2017 that’s finally bit the dust. I would expect longer than 4 years. You should take it to an Apple Store. If the problem is just the battery, it’s much cheaper (and greener) to replace that rather than get a brand new one.
Anon
I am typing this on a 2015 macbook, which aside from the battery still is in perfect shape.
Anon
I’ve had my MacBook Air since 2020 and it’s going strong. I use it for work – so pretty heavy use.
Anonymous
Well I’m typing along on my Macbook air from 2014 and just now thinking about getting a new one. I use it for standard personal stuff, not high level image editing or video games, etc. You might be able to buy a new battery and check if you’ve upgraded to the latest OS as first steps.
Anon
Random recommendation-I’m really happy with this top, especially in the teal color. Perfect to wear to work on days when I’d rather just wear a t-shirt.
https://bananarepublicfactory.gapfactory.com/browse/product.do?pid=887183011&vid=1&autosuggest=true&searchText=crewneck&position=0&results=6#pdp-page-content
anon
Really for work? Your work is very casual I assume…
anon
Well, that was a snotty response! It’s a nice-looking basic top and would be easy to dress up or down.
HSAL
+1
Anon
There have been lots of posts in the past here about ‘nice’ tshirts or shells to wear under toppers/3rd pieces. I can see this being totally fine under a blazer, with a vest, styled with a scarf or nice necklaces, etc.
Senior Attorney
If you can’t say anything nice…
I wore “nice tees” pretty much every day for my whole career and this looks like a good one.
Cat
Look past the styling; I can see this paired with an “office bottom” and accessorized to be business casual.
Anon
OP here-with dress pants and jewelry is definitely read as a work outfit (the slight sheen and sleeves make it more than a t-shirt.) But feel free to ignore if not relevant for your workplace. For social workers/school psychologists/teachers/et al. Our wardrobe needs are different and what’s out that has often been: cropped, puffy sleeves, otherwise I’ll-fitting, IMO.
Anon
*ill-fitting
Anonymous
It’s crepe. I don’t know many workplaces where it wouldn’t be appropriate
Anon
That doesn’t look super casual to me. Despite the name it doesn’t really seem like a classic t-shirt.
Anon
It would be completely fine in my law office on a non-court day. Compared to our youngest lawyers, one would be overdressed.
Anon
I have a silk top from Cuyana that looks almost the same that I wear to work all the time. If I could wear poly I would totally stock up on this top and wear it to work. My job is business/business formal.
towelie
I tend to be a hater of clothes posted here but even I think this is fine even for a business formal environment…it would look great with a blazer. my skin doesn’t like poly but I would totally wear a silk version of this.
Anonymous
I was just looking at this top online yesterday and thinking it seemed like something I could use in multiples for work. How sheer is it?
Anon
OP-I didn’t find it sheer at all, but did purchase it in somewhat darker colors (teal, sage green and black.) For reference I’m 5’0 and busty and an xs fit perfectly (sometimes I size down to an xxs but would’ve been too small in this top.)
Anon
I think this is cute. OP, does it fit TTS?
Anon
Yes. I usually wear an xxs or xs and an xs was perfect.
Anon
How are the arm holes? I’ve found that sometimes in tops like this, the openings are too narrow for me. I have a small bust but lift weights.
Anon
The sleeves feel on the flowier side/not constricting.
Anon
Not OP but I have several of these and they are workhorses. They are nicer than a tshirt but not formal. You can really adjust level of formality with accessories, etc. My workplace is a name brand type of place and these are totally appropriate. Love the teal color!
Anon
Thank you!! Ooh I love the teal
Runcible Spoon
Very nice, silky fabric, one-button keyhole back — it’s more of a “shell” than a knit T-shirt. Thank you!
Anon
Do you use a duffle bag for all of your gym needs? I am needing one to carry all of my supplies on the gym floor such as bands, gripps, etc. I don’t need something ginormous.
Please share which one you have and recommend with the name or a link if possible! Thanks in advance!
Anon
I use my original OG bag after getting a Seville for work.
Hollis
I love my OGIO Half Dome Duffle for the gym. I’m rough on my things but mine looks as good as new and the zipper is strong, too. Only thing I wish it had was a water bottle holder.
anon
I’ve had this bag for 10 years
https://shop.lululemon.com/en-ca/p/bags/Go-Getter-Bag-20/_/prod10370292?color=0001&sz=ONESIZE&cid=Google_SHOP_CA_NAT_EN_X_BrandShop_Incr-All_OMNI_GEN_Y24_ag-SHOP_G_US_EN_DM_X_GEN_NO_Accessories-Bags&gad_source=1&gbraid=0AAAAADL8AQ56P_w_7UqV6Mr2VyMEhRzXs&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIuq_xpZOGhgMVsUL_AR1jyApKEAQYBiABEgLVzfD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
Romanian Citzenship
Has anyone pursued Romanian citizenship by descent? If so, is there a company or lawyer you used?
AnonNY
Yesterday someone mentioned how being a mom to young kids in your 40s is a lot harder than in your 30s. Can others weigh in on whether this is a generally accepted finding? I’m 37.5 with 2 kids under 3.5 and still find myself thinking about having another… I just don’t know if that’s crazy given that I’d likely be 40 or close to it when/if I birth a 3rd child. I also am a biglaw partner so would likely need to cut back further on hours to have sufficient energy
Anon
I think everybody is very different. I know women in their 40s who say they feel 10 years younger and women in their 40s who say they are so damn tired they can’t catch a break ever. 35 and pregnant with my first and I’m sure I would have had a bit more energy a little younger, but it’s not the only factor when deciding on timing. I’m planning on mountain biking into my 70s or 80s. I’ve seen it happen many times and I want that for myself as well. I don’t want to think of getting older as being a miserable, awful time. I just read a book that said that if you have a gloomy outlook on aging, it actually literally ages you.
Housecounsel
I had babies at 27, 30, and 37 (oops) and was scattered and exhausted every time. t’s hard no matter when you do it. I am so grateful for my late baby. They’re all in their teens or 20s now and I am just not ready for an empty nest.
Anonymous
I am 47 and have more energy than I did when I was 37, probably because I don’t have little kids anymore.
Anon
I personally dont but I have a cousin who did and my MIL did too, though with a huge age gap and lots of help. I am personally too risk averse to roll the dice
Cat
40s is when things start to crunch more – like my in-laws are in their mid-late 70s and need a lot more time and energy with decisionmaking (like what medical advice to follow, understanding the financials associated with step-up retirement facilities, etc) than then did 10 years ago, and they are not in ill health! Also physically it just gets harder to have the same amount of energy and “spring-back” as you did a decade ago, even staying in reasonably good shape.
Anon
This is the biggest factor, imo. Your own parents typically need a lot more help when you’re in your 40s and it’s horrible to be squeezed at both ends. I had my only child at 32 and am glad I got through the little kid years before my parents needed significant help. Although if your parents had you young, it may not apply.
Anonymous
It’s not like at 40 a switch flips and you are suddenly a senior citizen. Aging is gradual. If you have another one now you will have about as much energy as you had for your last. I would honestly be thinking more about the idea of parenting a teen at nearly 60. I know someone who has one in college and a “surprise blessing” 4-year-old. I will be an empty nester this fall at 47, which feels a bit young but mostly right. She won’t be done with hands-on parenting until she is 60 and close to retirement. That is a long slog. I would also be worried about the time and energy cost of having three kids regardless of my age.
Anon
Sorry but that sounds crazy. Three kids makes your career impossible at the level you’re at, you will inevitably lack the resources to care for your kids and your own retirement. And I know a lot of people do it, but it’s not about being tired now, it’s about being able to retire and enjoy your senior years without worrying about funding college and retirement at the same time. You have two already. Why would you blow up what’s working for the inevitable chaos of a third. I would strongly recommend stopping. I’ve seen this go badly for too many people.
SMC- San Diego
Flip side I know many people who had a third (either on purpose or “oops”) and it has been wonderful. My sister had two in four years and then her youngest came along in her late 30s. And it was amazing, did not kill (or even really hurt) her professional career and the impact on her finances has been minimal, although all three kids know they need to either attend in-state schools or get a scholarship.
OP – this is too individual to crowdsource. Your finances, health, marriage, other family obligations, etc. are specific to you. At the end of the day, I would go with my gut.
AnonNY
10:13, that’s a fair perspective / criticism and I do try to remember how lucky I am for my current life. Luckily we already have a large nest egg (we could cash pay 3 kids college tuitions today and be close to retiring ourselves if we downsized our lifestyle and didn’t worry about the risk of unhinged inflation) so I’m not worried about the financial hit of a 3rd child
Anecdata
I definitely know people who have kids at age 40+ and feel fine about it – and also some women find pregnancy much harder at those ages. It varies so much — are there any women in your family (that you are biologically related to) with later pregnancies you could ask, since it seems to be at least partially genetic?
Separate from pregnancy & childbirth everyone who has had “3 under 5” describes that stage as really. really. hard. (even if they are ultimately happy they did it). What does your support system look like?
Anon
I’m the commenter below and agree that genetics seem to be a factor. I’m the third generation of women in my family to have kids in 40s – all conceived naturally, and all with healthy uncomplicated pregnancies and good parenting experiences. We just seem to have favorable genes for it.
Anon
I’m 43 and just had my second. I think this is very personal – I’m blessed with good health, and was in great shape going into having kids, so I feel like I’m just…normal tired, not unusually tired?
I left biglaw as a partner while I was pregnant with my first, and took an in-house job. My husband is still a partner. We also have two stepkids who are with us 50% of the time, so a very full house. It would not have been feasible for both of us to stay in biglaw, and I got an incredible opportunity in-house, so it was an easy decision to leave. I don’t think it’s about level of physical energy, it’s about the time availability you need to have and the incompatibility of that with the unpredictable nature of most biglaw practices. If your spouse is willing to be primary parent, it’s more doable.
We love kids, and would be open to having another but it took a long time to get pregnant the last time (I’m a non responder to IVF, so we just had to keep trying naturally), so it’s likely not in the cards for us.
AnonNY
This raises good questions about what level of availability I’d have with both kids. I’m lucky to have a firm culture that’s supportive of part time work arrangements and I think there’s a realistic chance of pulling it off myself. My husband stepped back his career thankfully!
A.n.o.n.
I have 2 (11 and 13) and I’m in my mid 40s now.
1) after hitting 40 my body (and my husband’s) have gotten less reliable. we’ve both had surgery and weeks/months long recovery to correct sports/use injuries, plus stuff like tennis elbow that requires OT and adjusting routines. I haven’t had the pleasure of recovering from birth in my 40s but imagine it may be different than it was in my early 30s.
2) not your age specific, but “span” is a big factor for me as to why we didn’t have 3. the further apart your oldest and youngest are, the more likely they’ll be at different schools/activities that conflict. with kids a couple years apart, I’m lucky that they are sometimes in the same activities so two parents aren’t running them in different directions.
*** it’s still a more personal decision about what’s right for YOUR family but things to keep in mind since you’re asking!
AnonNY
Span is a factor I hadn’t considered. Thanks!
Anonymous
I think a very wide age gap, like 8+ years, can actually make the logistics easier. The real crunch is when you have multiple kids in the 8-12 age range where they are all in travel sports or competitive dance or whatever 5x per week. They tend to drop these activities in favor of school activities in middle school or by freshman year of high school at the latest.
A.n.o.n.
I think that’s true when you have two kids and there’s a big gap – or maybe it’s all very big gaps – but 3 kids in 5-6 years strikes me as a high potential for conflicting events.
but like I said, I’ve got two closeish kids, and this is based on my secondhand observations of families with like 7th, 5th, and 1st graders.
Anon
I think it varies with health but also with healthcare. There is such a difference between having the healthcare support to catch any new issues (weight gain, sleep apnea, thyroid, blood sugar… whatever runs in the family) and address those issues promptly vs. being told it’s normal, just aging, wait and see if it gets worse, or encountering polypharmacy to chase symptoms without much investigation into what’s causing them. This is especially true for perimenopause where the difference can be between having a plan to manage it vs. disregarding it entirely. So with good healthcare access and a trusted team, I’d be more optimistic about aging in general.
Anon
I only had kids at 38 and 39. I was far enough in my career that I could set my own hours because I had my own clients (tax lawyer). More than anything else, that flexibility is why I’m still in the workforce. Earlier, that wouldn’t have been the case and maybe I could have been a permanent law clerk, but that was an in-person every day job back when I was a clerk (IDK if that changed with COVID or not).
Anonymous
I’m in Brooklyn with a 2 year old and at age 36 I’m on the younger side of most of my mom groups. . There are women in my mom group that are as old as 47 with a young toddler. I think if you live in a place where people predominantly have children young, it’s hard to imagine, but I see/meet/hang out with women in their early 40s running all over the place with their toddlers. And living here requires baseline a lot of energy for all the walking around, carrying groceries, running up and down subway stairs, carting kids around on public transportation, etc. I find caring for a child just brings some energy to the household and makes me feel young.
I hear the points about enjoying your retirement but sometimes you don’t get to choose when you have children! I got cancer, and then had to do a ton of fertility treatment, when all my friends were having kids. I did lots of traveling and fun things and career building while I was young so I don’t mind actively parenting into my mid to late 50s. Whether I can have a second is up to science and luck at this point but I am trying and it would likely not happen until I’m close to 40.
I think managing work and 3 kids is a bigger concern given that you are in BigLaw, but you know yourself/your spouse/your balance best.
Anonononon
Not a big law partner but in a “big” job that requires regular travel.
I had my first kid at 38, second at 40, and am now pregnant with my third at 42. Got married at 35 and started trying for kids immediately but we had issues at first.
I’m having a hard pregnancy but I don’t think it’s as much factor as age as it is already having two young kids so I can’t rest. I also do not enjoy being pregnant (but deeply love my kids) so it’s been mentally grueling spending so much time in this state.
I think you just need to be real about how much help you need. My spouse went part-time but we still have our kids in full-time care so he can be available to do all of those home tasks and be around to help his aging parents. We also hire babysitters to help with bedtime/mornings when I travel.
(also have cleanings person every other week, grocery delivery, a reliable handy person we call for things, a lawn service, and sometimes hire our babysitter for extra hours to help with laundry/tidying when we’re in a crunch.)
Maybe it would have been better if I could have met my spouse at 30 and had kids earlier, but that didn’t happen and there are no magic wands. You just have to live your life and make the best choices from the options you actually have.
AnonNY
Congratulations! I hear you on how tiring it is to be pregnant and also chasing after toddlers
Anon
Physically it’s harder (had my last at 38), and I am now the stereotype for 40 year old mom with aging parents and small children getting squeezed at both ends. I have 0 family help and my free time involves doing PT. That said, it’s totally doable. If you want a third go for it.
Anonymous
If the question is “should I?” Then the answer is yes!
If the question is “why don’t some people…l then I will say I had way more energy for kids in my late 20s/early 30s than I do now in my early 40s. Both DH and I are starting to have routine old people problems (largely related to doing lots of exercise), DH’s parents are in their 80s and have known my kids for 13 years. If I had kids now, at 42, they’d never have known those grandparents or their great grandparents. Deal breaker? No! But a consideration.
Also, all my kids will be out of college when I’m 55 (or on a different life path). If I’d wanted, I’d have teens in my mid 50s.
As a trade off, I spent my early 30s in the depths of toddlerhood. We had less money than peers that started kids at 35. I think it has evened out because my career has picked back up and some friends that had kids later have stepped down or out of their careers.
AnonNY
I totally understand why people decide to have kids earlier! It wasn’t in the cards for me unfortunately. I don’t *love* the idea of being an old mom but it beats not being a mom!
Anonymous
Will you be exhausted? Yes! But I have 3 and I had them younger and they still exhaust me. My third was by FAR the easiest. She’s 6 and still a snuggle monster and probably always will be. My older ones helped out even though they weren’t much older. I pulled back at work until they were in elem (about 3-4 total years). DH has chosen to stay in a more secure job because it’s flexible.
That said, you never know and you might have a high needs kid.
Good luck!
TelcoLadyJD
I had my first at 37 and my second at 39. Other than taking place after IVF and during Covid, my first pregnancy was easy. I had no complications, despite being told I’d have ALL of them due to being plus-sized. My second pregnancy was a nightmare – I don’t sleep when I’m pregnant, and I puked until 32 weeks. I also had polyhydramnios (too much amniotic fluid), gestational diabetes, and preeclampsia.
All of this to say – only two years separated these pregnancies. Sometimes….it’s just the luck of the draw. We want another, but a third pregnancy might actually kill me…and we’re already paying $4200 a month in daycare. Plus, my husband is five years older than I am….and we want to start traveling and going places other than the playground with our kids. I would say….we’re very tired. If we were even five years younger…I think we’d go for three.
DLC
I had kids at 34, 38, and 40 and I have to say my last kid was the easiest because by then I cared a whole lot less about things, so it felt less mentally draining. I knew that kids were resilient so i didn’t feel the need to hover or be anxious. It might be slightly physically harder, but I don’t feel the need to expend the energy like I used to. I think everyone is different, though.
Anon oldie with kids
Harder in terms of getting pregnant? My OBGYN told me the risk of multiples is what to consider, and not to worry about fertility as it is really not the issue. In terms of energy, yes that’s a huge factor and also consider that parenting a post covid child is really quite different from the before times. Schools are really struggling to retain good teachers, it’s really hard to get good quality childcare (so much harder to find au pairs for older kids), and the general behavior is very different between my 8-10 years old kids and my 3-6 years old kids. The younger two’s peers are a bit like those puppies who didn’t get socialised enough.
That said, if you can afford great childcare, good schooling and have good fitness, go for it! Just know it might be twins!
Seafinch
Very late to this but I am an older mother. I had my first at 32 and have had five kids in a little over 12 years, having my last at 45 (15 months ago). My later pregnancies were a bit easier than my first ones and I have found it no different managing the babies. I feel just as energetic. I am in good health and fit. I can’t say there is any difference all. (I said this all yesterday on the birth rates thread). I left private practice before I had kids and am a military lawyer so I don’t have to juggle Big Law. We have always had an Au Pair as our childcare. It’s cheaper than daycare and much more convenient and flexible for us but we’re Canadian so the system is different.
Anon
Au pairs are a god send. Super hard to get them since covid though…so many Brazilians and hard to find great drivers.
Seafinch
Covid was briefly tough for Canadians but it regulated quickly. It’s quite easy now and there are lots of options. But it is a very different system here. You don’t need to use an agency and they make minimum wage per hour. There isn’t a dedicated Au Pair programme in Canada.
Anonymous
My two quilts from Pottery Barn are two decades old now and looking a bit worn from regular laundering (I’m very greasy). Where are you buying quality textiles these days? I no longer buy PB: their sheets fell apart within weeks of purchase last time I bought them.
Anon
20 years is far outside the norm for expecting bedding to last.
Anon
+1!
Anon
I buy mine from West Elm, which is an offshoot of PB, so you may not want to buy from there. That said, I’ve had sheets, quilts, comforters/duvets, and duvet covers from them for 5 years and they are still going strong with no real signs of wear. I love their tencel collection.
anon88
About six months ago I bought a quilt from Schoolhouse that I LOVE. Obviously haven’t had it long enough to know for sure how it’ll stand up to wear, but I am really happy with it so far. https://www.schoolhouse.com/products/stillwater-floral-quilt
Anonymous
Garnet Hill has the best that I’ve found. I also check Brooklinen and Lands’ End to look for seasonal colors and so forth.
Anon
How important is s3xual attraction at the beginning of dating? I’m very casually starting to see a great guy who I both enjoy spending time with and am compatible with in many ways (we’ve been friends for years so I know a lot about him, his values, what he’s looking for, goals, interests, and the like already). I’m not unattracted to him, but I also don’t want to jump his bones.
We have both been unsuccessfully dating for years (we’re both 30). Part of me feels like I should wait until I find a guy I’m both compatible with and wildly attracted to and part of me feels like I’ve been dating for so long, who knows how long it’d take to find that person (if I ever find them). I don’t want to rush things or force them with the wrong person just to get married and have babies, but also marriage and children are things I really want and while the biological clock isn’t imminent, it is there. Being forever alone is definitely a very real fear I have. I also don’t want to lose out on the ability to have kids because I was too picky.
I generally have a low s3x drive, so it’s pretty rare for me to physically be super into someone. I also think in terms of a lifelong relationship there are more important things than physical chemistry – of course it’s important but I feel like quite a few of my friends are settling down with less than stellar guys with red flags on more important things (like chronic unemployment or deferring to their parents over their wife on everything).
Obviously my choice isn’t start dating my friend more seriously or be alone forever. I also know even if we start dating more seriously it doesn’t mean the relationship will workout. However I don’t want to give it a shot without thinking there’s a good chance it’ll workout – not only are we good friends but our friend group is really close so I just want to be careful.
Anon
If it’s not important to you, it’s usually important to the other person. If you don’t have physical chemistry at the start, it’s going to be a tough relationship longer term. Physical desire changes over time but it’s usually there at different points. I’d personally at least try f*cking him since everything else is great, a lot of times you can’t tell how attracted you are until you’re doing it.
anonshmanon
When you have sex, it should be enjoyable for both of you (couldn’t tell whether you’ve done it yet). There should be compatibility in how often you do it. For me, it’s not important to be constantly horny for each other. There is other physical contact (cuddling, hand holding, kisses), and sex is only one part of a relationship. Based on previous discussions here, others would declare my sex life tragic, but it works for us, 13 years and counting. If you give it a try, and occasionally check in whether you are happy and on the same page with him, those are the things that matter.
Sunshine
This is probably me too. I think DH is very physically attractive and I love him deeply. But I have a pretty low drive and probably wouldn’t care if we never gardened again. DH’s is also on the low side, so we are not mis-matched. If he initiates, I’m happy to participate. But I don’t think about it much otherwise. Others would declare our gardening life tragic. However, we are very physically affectionate throughout the day (we both work at home): lots of hugs, kisses, cuddling, etc. And that works for us. We have been married for 10 years. No kids by choice. It’s pretty much always been this way for us.
So to answer your question, I think only you and your boyfriend can decide if there is enough physical attraction. You said you’re low on drive, so it sounds like this guy probably meets your needs in terms of how attractive he is to you physically. But if he wants to garden every day and you’re not interested, then I think it will become a problem. If he’s like my DH, you’re probably good.
For some people, lack of gardening interest is a deal killer. And for others, it isn’t. You gotta figure out where both of you are on that topic.
Anonymous
For me, physical attraction can grow. It grows from closeness developed through things other than physical intimacy at first, and then from that. I wasn’t immediately into my current BF but eventually it kicked in and it hasn’t faded in 18 mos.
Anon
This was true for me too. I thought my boyfriend was attractive when we met, but like the OP I wasn’t wildly attracted to him. As I got to know him, he became more and more physically attractive to me.
We’re about 3.5 years in now, and I think he’s hotter than ever.
Anon
I don’t generally feel physical attraction until the emotional relationship has developed. I also tend to have responsive desire rather than spontaneous desire. I have a happy marriage of almost 10 years, and a great s*x life, so I don’t think having immediate s*xual attraction is necessary for a great long term relationship.
Anon
+1 that for me physical attraction comes after I’ve already developed a relationship with someone.
anon
Same here. OP, how you describe your friend is how I would’ve described my DH in the early days. Very attracted emotionally, and wasn’t UNattracted physically. However, the physical attraction came with time, and I think our solid start emotionally (and friend-wise) has been a huge part of our success as a couple over the years. We’ve been married 20 years and are both very attracted to each other and have a great gardening life.
Anonymous
was just popping in here to suggest that she look into demisexuality — that’s what you guys are describing, no physical attraction until an emotional relationship has developed.
Cat
for me, the physical attraction comes from the emotional connection as opposed to ‘omg I think he’s hot’ so it taking a little time to bloom makes 100% sense to me.
Anon
Not that anyone should settle in a relationship or marry someone that they’re not attracted to, but I do think too many people overlook the importance of a compatible life partner when choosing a spouse. You’re building a life and a family and a financial future with this person.
How many posts are there complaining about men not pulling their weight a home or insisting on golf over family time on a weekend or disagreeing and refusing to compromise on how to spend $$$ or bending over backwards to appease their parents while not supporting their wife? How many wives can’t trust their husbands to act appropriately in social situations (not even that they’d be inappropriate in a sexual way but that they monopolize a conversation or don’t understand the social norms or discuss something uncouth)
Anon
I think it’s fairly important.
NaoNao
I think there needs to be a base level of warmth. It doesn’t have to be rip your pants off fire hot. In fact, I think both women and men get distracted and make poor choices due to fire hot chemistry, which is only an indication of…chemistry!
I sometimes see posts online in various forums about how some woman has a husband who is perfect in every way AND he says she’s hot in her bathrobe and slippers with a runny nose AND she wants to jump his bones every minute of every day and they have 3 small kids and I think “Sure, Jan” is his name George Glass? Heh.
My opinion is that most people quietly accept a compromise in one way or another–NOT “settling” but just accepting that fire hot rip pants off isn’t likely to last past the honeymoon period anyway.
A great book about this is the fictional book “The Post-Birthday World” which explores two different paths a 42 year old takes–one where she stays with a warm but not fire hot chemistry guy and one where she follows her desire. Terrific book, I re-read it every few years.
OP
Wow referring it to compromise instead of settling is very helpful to me! I don’t believe in soul mates and I don’t think there’s someone out there who is 100% perfect for me so there will always be something to compromise on.
anon88
I think it’s more important that you’re both aligned in terms of drive and physical compatibility. I just left a marriage where the s3x was mediocre and as someone with a high drive, I’m realizing just how big of a deal it was for me personally.
My point being, if you have a low drive and aren’t as concerned with the physical part of the relationship, I think it’s more important that he’s on the same page than that you are more attracted to him.
OP
Thanks for these comments. We haven’t slept together – I tend to move very slow and usually only sleep with guys I’m dating. I’m very much not a casual s3x person – it takes a lot for me to be comfortable enough to sleep with someone. I also haven’t been in a relationship since college so I think I know my needs, but they could have changed. I also think we’ve both been single for so long that neither of us really know how much we’d want s3x in a relationship.
Despite having a low drive, I do really enjoy cuddling, hand holding, and kissing. I’ve enjoyed doing that with him thus far. Haven’t gone beyond making out yet.
I don’t think he’s super attractive but I don’t think he’s unattractive. He’s not really my “type” which is fine (idc if someone is my type or not) but does explain why I’m not super attracted to him. I find that how attractive I find him does definitely change on what he’s wearing / the setting which is a little concerning to me (if I’m into him shouldn’t I be into him regardless?).
I feel like I’d much rather be with someone I’m less into physically but I enjoy spending time with and have similar values and goals with than someone who is attractive to me but I don’t like as much. However, I also want to be fair to him (I know he finds me more attractive than I find him). I also don’t want to wake up one day in 20 years think I settled. But, I’d rather “settle” for someone I like and respect but don’t want to jump their bones than wait to find someone who “checks all the boxes” who never materialized and be alone in 20 years.
Things are naturally pretty slow moving (even aside from my inhibitions) because we’re not long distance but we’re not conveniently located either. We mostly hang out with friends and then sneak away to make out. He’s in Reston and I’m in Baltimore – a very manageable distance but not close enough to see each other all the time either. My job is hybrid, his is 95% remote so in the future closing the gap would be pretty easy but currently we’re not hanging out on a Wednesday just cause.
anonshmanon
A lot of this reminds me of my thinking when I first met my partner. Definitely not ‘my type’ compared to who I had crushes on in school or my favorite Hollywood stars. Definitely a lot of overthinking, like, are the ‘right’ boxes checked and is this what I ‘should’ be looking for when choosing a life partner? Being in the moment and realizing I was really excited to hang out with this person, regardless of what we were doing, and always wanted to spend more time when the weekend was over, helped me slowly let go of all the ‘shoulds’. Back then it felt like taking a leap of faith to commit (have the talk etc), because I had to trust my own gut over some little voice in my head. No regrets.
OP
Do funnily enough, I tried using the “do I enjoy spending time with him” question to help figure out my feelings. It was a yes, but then I remembered that we’re also friends – I’ve enjoyed spending time with him long before I was potentially interested in anything more. It’s hard when you’re friends to determine if you like hanging out as friends or something more!
Senior Attorney
When I was in grad school to be a therapist (didn’t finish but picked up a lot of interesting information), one of my professors did a study on what makes a successful marriage/romantic partnership, and the thing at the top of his list was “the quality of the friendship between the partners.” So I say go for it.
Anonymous
Since you’re asking about physical attraction, imagine what he would look like in 10 years, then take that out to 30 or 40 years. Factor in lifestyle behaviors like exercise, diet, smoking, alcohol etc.
Anyone can look good in their 20s and 30s, but aging well and self care means more in later years.
Anon
At least ask yourself whether any meds you take are a factor (absolutely has been a factor for me).
Anon
I think this is so person dependent. Have you found in the past your attraction has grown with time? Are you attracted to risky or elusive qualities?
For me, the answers to both questions are no- I know within 5 minutes of meeting someone if I’ll ever want to garden with them and if I don’t then I’m never going to want to. I’m attracted to a wide range of men, including emotionally mature ones. So, for me, personally, the answer is “very important”, but that doesn’t really matter for you!
Anonymous
I wasn’t going to weigh in but your situation is so similar. I’ve been married for 14 years. We were friends before. Granted, we were SO YOUNG, sometimes I’m amazed it worked out. I was attracted to him, but honestly it was more like I admired him than wanting to jump his bones. He was a man in a room full of boys. I also have a pretty low sex drive. It’s actually been a strain on our relationship. He wants to garden 4- 5 days a week. I want to garden 3 times a month. It took years of him telling me this was really important to him before I really “got it.” And you know what? 14 years in, we garden about 3 times a week and I’m more attracted to him than I was when we were 24. We have three kids and life is chaotic right now. It hasn’t been all puppies and rainbows. But the longer we’re together the more I admire him and that makes him attractive. Even if little things he does drive me nuts. But I also never ever felt like I was “settling” – for me it was him or nobody. I don’t know if this is helpful. I guess don’t write him off.
Anonymous
I commented elsewhere – definitely look into the aro/ace spectrum and demisexuality; it sounds like what you’re describing. i have a low sex drive (and my husband’s is even lower) so it hasn’t been super important during our marriage, but we definitely did want to jump each other’s bones about 400x more than usual for us now when we were in the first year or two of love.
if you kiss him, is it giving you an ick factor? sex? if he were into it, would the idea of turning him on turn you on? i think those are the questions i’d be asking myself.
Anonymous
I’m a childfree practice group chair at a medium size law firm (100 lawyers). I recently went to a panel presentation on law firm leadership. Multiple presenters said they didn’t realize how difficult it is to give care (infant, spouse, parent, etc.) until they were in that situation, and that they wished they had been more understanding and given more grace in their younger years to others in those roles. I would like to work on this myself. Example: the majority of the work I do for clients typically has 2-3 day turnarounds. I generally ask associates if they’re available before delegating work, but if they say yes, I don’t have a ton of wiggle room if they have sick kids on day 3 and are unable to finish. I’m trying to build in time on the ‘due date’ for me to scramble if needed, but this seems to happen a lot with parents of young kids. (I get why, but it sometimes is really hard to cover.) Also, some of them have very strict hours – that’s OK, but if a client calls at 4:30 and the associate needs to leave by 5, it seems to be this cruddy choice where they’re either not getting the client contact/full scope of the call or they’re risking running late. Looking for suggestions, not just about deadlines necessarily, but other ways to build in compassion and flexibility for caregivers. Not trying to sound blame-y – I have never dinged an associate on a review or to a client if something is late or they need to back out – genuinely seeking suggestions for how to be more supportive in a law firm environment. My firm has a long way to go, we just got paid parental leave 5 years ago for example, so I am open to hearing things that work well or you wish you had! If you’re a client, maybe you’ve seen things that work well, too!
Anon
IDK, but I’ve had this as a solo and I just bargain in the moment with my spouse, but I’ve never felt ever able to outright decline. If spousal bargaining doesn’t work (he may be in a meeting and unable to pick up or on travel or his car was in a wreck), I bargain back with the client and treat my kid’s mandatory pickup as a meeting: I’ve already got something at 5 but could we talk at 6 or 7 or 9 tomorrow? I always make a path for things to work out and generally one way or another it has. I wish I had the luxury of saying no like an associate can back to a partner.
Anonymous
Hahahahah what. Associates do not have the luxury of just saying no without consequences
Anon
You’d be surprised. They just learned how to ghost well during COVID and I’m surprised what we put up with, but until everyone decides to quiet fire them, they get to stay (year 4 for them). I don’t feel bad for them anymore. We made some rotten hires and we can’t backfill until we sack them.
Anonymous
When, oh when, is the law firm model of paying associates far more than they are worth in exchange for zero skills and constant availability going to collapse? These kids should be getting paid half or one-third of what they are making, working 40-50 hours a week, and getting actual mentoring and training. This whole “pay them a gazillion dollars to be in the office 80 hours a week to pretend to work whenever a partner says jump and then fire them when they haven’t magically developed skills” thing is ridiculous.
Anon
Agree with Anonymous at 11:28 am. (Also believe that if associates were paid $70k right out of school, law school tuition would come back down to earth. Fewer people would think “Of course I can go to a school that costs $80,000 a year – I’m going to make $200k at age 25.”)
Anonymous
I don’t know how this works in a law firm, but in my world the answer to the your first example is either redundancy (don’t have just one person who knows the project so that another person can step in and finish) or telling the client it’s just not going to happen that day. On the 4:30 call example, the associate should be able to say, “I can give you half an hour now or an hour at XYZ time.”
I think you are really framing the issue wrong. The problem isn’t associates with kids, it’s failure to manage expectations. What happens if a client calls at 4:30 and you have another client call scheduled at 5:00? You would have the same issue with having to put off one client or the other. Or what if you had a deadline and got sick yourself? Life and business happen to everyone, not just people with kids. Childless people are not work robots.
AnonNY
Yes this! I understand the need to service clients with quick responsiveness but there’s often a lot of wiggle room in setting client expectations Don’t over promise
Anon
Yes, as a parent at mid-senior level in financial services, the single biggest routine frustration I have is more senior people who accept client timing suggestions on short notice without at least trying to offer an alternative. Our clients often will send an email at ~3-4 PM saying “hey, can we connect? Would 5:30 work?”. The MDs and VPs I work with know that I can get coverage for that time as long as I know a day in advance or can make literally any time work except 5-6, but never ever will just reply saying “we’re busy at 5:30, could sometime 6 or after work?” (To be clear, we are in an industry where we’re responsive until ~11 or so in the evening so evening calls are not uncommon). I know our clients and their personalities and their working hours and this would truly not be a big deal for them but it never ever happens, in the name of “client services”.
Anon
I don’t plan to have kids but I do love it when my manager has kids. I know they will need to log off around 5 to do a daycare pickup and then they log back on after their kid goes to sleep. I can modify my schedule around theirs and go out to dinner or workout while they are also logged off. I’ve experienced this with both male and female managers. Also not law but similar field and client expectations.
Anonymous
Does the entire legal industry really operate with no contingency plans?
Anon
Yes because junior people are overpaid (wildly). We should cut their pay in half and hire twice as many (and then promote the good ones). Would solve a host of problems.
Anon
Law firms generally have a single point of failure whereas hospitals staff with fungibility and redundancy.
Anon
Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Umm, sorry, but that’s not true (regarding hospitals).
Anon
It is 1000% percent true at law firms.
In hospitals, my L&D nurses had a shift change in the middle of pushing.
TB
This is very kind of you, but you may be putting more responsibility on yourself than required. For example, I have two elementary aged kids and I preemptively put measures in place so that my caregiving responsibilities do not impact my ability to do my job. When they were little, I had back up sitters who could come with very little notice if they were sick. Now, I have babysitters who pick them up from school and watch them until the workday is done, and even later if I have something going on at night. My husband and I coordinate our schedules very closely to make sure we know who can make it to what far in advance, and I block my calendar off if I need to leave early or be out of the office. I’m a partner at a midsized firm now, and I would expect associates to do the same, while also being understanding if an emergency came up (because of course it will, just hopefully not very often with other measures in place), but I don’t think I would be super understanding of an associate who just had a general practice of leaving the office everyday at 5PM who couldn’t join a client call. And honestly, I would be pretty ticked if I put an attorney on a project and then they backed out or we missed a deadline because their kid was sick. Having a sick kid isn’t like the world stops – you can hire help, share time with your spouse, work while they’re sleeping, and I would expect a professional to figure out a way to make it happen if the deadline was something that couldn’t be moved. Obviously different story for less important timelines. Anyways, my point is – seems like you’re being really flexible, and that’s great, but you don’t have to bend over backwards.
Anonymous
Are you the partner who got mad at me when I took a call from my child’s hospital room but had to leave early because the doctor came in? Or perhaps you are my former boss who ran a meeting from her husband’s hospital room and made the entire team incredibly uncomfortable because we could overhear private medical information?
TB
No!! Not in the slightest. Did you skip over the part where I said I’m understanding when emergencies come up? And the examples you shared are horrifying and true emergencies and not at all what I was talking about.
Anonymous
She’s not being flexible at all. At all.
Anon
Similar, but I have my life worked out to leave well ahead of the rush so my kid is at home and I can take a call with minimal downtime. Tasks at 4 take 1/3 of the time they take at 5. No local family and I have to pay help on the books, which really limits people interested in PT work.
anon
For folks who don’t have kids, I just want to point out that whether one can find backup care for sick kids or someone to do daycare pickup is really variable depending on market. For my family, childcare beyond daycare/nanny hours was really on my spouse and me.
When I was in big law, I tried to find back up sitters for when my kids were sick and someone to pick up my kids from daycare. The firm even, in theory, had a benefit that would provide back up care. In practice, I couldn’t find any qualified person to take on days when my kids were too sick for daycare or someone reliable to do daycare pickup. The market where I live is incredibly tight for decent, reliable care. Even the excellent, expensive local nanny agencies couldn’t find qualified people for these kinds of jobs, even at tippy top of market rates.
My spouse could split these duties with me, but that wasn’t sufficient for my work and I left the practice of law, for this among other reasons.
Anonymous
This is very true. People always say that Big Law pays people enough money to hire out these aspects of parenting, but in many places it simply is not possible to hire it out. The real assumption is that you have a SAH spouse to do all this for you. This assumption holds for many men with Big Jobs but not usually for women, whose husbands also tend to have Big Jobs.
Anon
A-friggin-men. It is impossible for me to find actual true back up care. The only way to have this is to have a stay at home spouse and ideally local family too.
Anonymous
Attitudes like this are why non-parents resent parents in the workplace. The parents HAVE to say no to the 4:30 call because they have no choice–if they show up late to day care they will get fined or even have CPS called on them. This makes the non-parents think that the parents get special privileges. Instead, everyone should have enough leeway to accommodate illness or reasonable scheduling conflicts.
Anonymous
I’m not in law but also child free and cared for adults. I build in as much cushion as possible for my teams. If it’s a meeting I can’t make, I have someone else attend (would be same if they couldn’t attend). But the biggest value for me was asynchronous work time. That doesn’t help with meetings, but I just structured my other work when I could get it done. As others pointed out, that should be true for people in non-caregiving roles as well. Boundaries are important to set for everyone. So for instance, if I had a client that was in another time zone or needed work at 7 pm every week, I wouldn’t start my work day at 8 am because that’s not realistic for many employees. Again, not in law, but my philosophy is grace and flexibility where possible.
Anon
I work, but at a .7 FTE so that I can flex a bit if needed. Is it ideal? No. But, as Aaron Burr sings, I am the one think in life I can control and I’ve never been able to hire the help I’ve needed to work more, so I just accept less and enjoy the flexibility when I can. Everyone PT wants to work under the table, to the point where $35 an hour on the books still gets you no one reliable who isn’t really just wanting something FT or just for the college academic calendar (which helps, but I’m most busy at work b/w Thanksgiving and New Year’s Eve).
Sky
Looking at possibly changing jobs – how much of a benefit is a union? For added context, I developed a visible disability after starting here (it doesn’t impact my actual ability to do the job, but does need accommodations) and this field tends to discriminate against disabilities fairly heavily, this field is very rarely unionized, and the union got us guaranteed cost-of-living/inflation adjustments in a VHCOL area. I have family history that I think biases me more towards “stick with the unionized job no matter what” and just wanted a reality check.
Anon
Unions can be great at securing benefits and good annual COL raises. I’m very thankful for the benefits the union has fought for.
They can also be stupid, holding up negotiations for a year because they ask for a crazy raise number and then threaten to strike, while their industry is undergoing massive layoffs and restructuring (going through this now). Not great at reading the room.
Anon
A union is great if you’re a mediocre, middle of the road employee who isn’t great at holding a job. If you’re ambitious and tend to excel at work, it’s terrible. It’s a popular idea because many people are mediocre.
Anonymous
Right, if we didn’t have teacher’s unions, really fantastic teachers would get huge raises all the time.
Anon
I see really mediocre teachers not get counseled out. Or they get retained while other teachers can’t get hired even if they are preferred candidates. It stops principals from building the best schools that they can (but won’t get rid of a bad principal or employee). Good for the middle.
Anon
lol +1
Anon
I missed where the OP was talking about schools? I’m talking about a corporate workplace.
Cerulean
Meh, as a former teacher who had excellent reviews, I think our union was still a net positive for me. I seriously doubt I would have had much in the way of merit pay increases if we weren’t unionized. I had excellent benefits and we had things like class size caps and working conditions spelled out in our CBA. Friends I knew in non-union schools had far worse pay and working conditions.
Anonymous
My comment at 10:59 was sacrastic. I’m married to a teacher and deeply grateful for a powerful union.
Cerulean
I was replying to the comment at 10:50! I got your joke :)
Anonymous
Like with so many other things in this world: it depends. Ideally, no one would want a union (and its dues) because all employers would treat their employees with fairness and humanity. But some employers are unreasonable about wages or support abusive supervisors or laugh at the concepts of progressive discipline, just cause, and non-discrimination.
Some unions don’t do anything for their members.
Some unions protect awful employees.
Some unions frighten entire industries into using some of their beloved profits to pay a fair wage.
Some unions pop up and fight with real knowledge and skill every time a manager thinks he can get away with violating employment laws, since how likely is it that the employee knows the law let alone has the stamina to navigate it alone?
If you’ve got a great employer, you don’t need a union. But great employers don’t always stay great.
If you haven’t got a great employer, you need a union. But a bad union is worse than nothing.
Fun, huh?
Anon
I am a lawyer in unionized job. I don’t always agree with certain choices my union makes in terms of negotiations, but I will say that working conditions, salary, and benefits are much, much better at my workplace than at comparable non union workplaces. I think it’s a huge benefit.
Anon
I feel like unions are most needed in physically demanding or dangerous professions. When lawyers are unionized . . .
Anon
There’s a lot of lawyer jobs that are not highly paid and can be exploitative — mostly in government and public defense. Think about how many lawyers your local child welfare agency employs, their salaries and case loads.
Anonymous
This. Public defenders are massively overworked and underpaid and have no market power or political power.
anonshmanon
I’ve never understood this notion. Yes, unions historically came up in the blue collar sector, but improved compensation, benefits, conditions, due process etc is of interest to any employees I would think.
Anonymous
Unions are about equalizing bargaining power. People assume that “rich educated lawyers” or other white-collar workers automatically have more bargaining power than blue-collar workers. Which is not necessarily true.
anonshmanon
I think they are about combining bargaining power. You can go to your boss and demand a raise, or everyone in the company can demand a raise with legal protections. One is more powerful than the other. Obviously not every employee has identical wishes, so a union list of demands will be the smallest common denominator of what people want. Compromise in exchange for strength in numbers. That’s very theoretical of course.
In reality you can have a functional union, or a rather passive one, or even a bad one. Depends on the people that are involved. Kind of like a PTA or some volunteer organization.
Anon
My past immigration legal aid employer provided group therapy sessions. The work was highly charged, and secondary trauma is very real when you’re the advocate standing between someone being deported or remaining with their family.
Anon
I should add, deported to a country where they will be persecuted / violated / unalived. And that did happen to some of our clients.
Anon
I’ve worked in 2 unionized legal aid organizations, and I had a very positive experiene in both. Lots of PTO! Right now, I’m at a company with “unlimited PTO”, which is a scam. Most people take less than 1 week of PTO a year.
NYNY
Hey OP, you’re getting a lot of people’s personal/political opinions about unions here, but not a lot of answers to your question. Based on what you are saying about having a visible disability which requires accommodations and your field having a tendency to discriminate against disabilities, I think working in a collectively bargained shop is beneficial for you. In general, I think it’s easier to get accommodations in large organizations, especially if they have high regulatory exposure. So a hospital is good, but a smaller family-owned firm is more challenging.
Anon
I would say given your need for accommodation having a union would be priceless.
I’m in a union (but also I’m in government and legally can’t strike so) and am generally pro union, but in your case I’d DEFINITELY be pro union.
That being said, not all unions are created equal. My dad is a mail carrier and his union has been many headaches and few victories. My mom is a teacher and hers has been great.
Beans
Has anyone ever used one of the online narcissistic abuse recovery or high conflict divorce coaches or therapists? I have a traditional therapist but am dealing with a high conflict spouse and could use extra input from someone familiar with narcissistic personality disorder. It is exhausting dealing with an ex-spouse who is still attempting to control your life. We have 50/50 kids and have to interact some.
Anon
I would probably look for a different therapist sepcialized in that field versus adding another provider.
Anon
Rebecca Zung. Webinar was ok, Facebook group had a good divorce coach who got it.
Anon
Not everybody who hangs that kind of shingle will meet my standards. I’m defining high conflict couple or family therapists very specifically: a significant portion of their case load has been high conflict relationships or divorces for a good number of years. These folks definitely have specific skills and ability sets that run-of-the mill individual therapists or even trained family therapists are unlikely to develop. They are likely to be more expensive, but IMO you are also more likely to get your needs met in way fewer sessions — or discover that you need a divorce lawyer more than you need the therapist…
RiskedCredit
Oh welcome to the club. I hope your children are doing ok.
What has been helpful and effective is an excellent therapist. Mine has certifications and experience with trauma, family and sex. She spent 10 years working for CPS and 3 years at a women’s outreach program so has seen the really bad stuff.
I lucked out that she is through my insurance and has this experience. Her guidance has been nothing short of amazing.
Understand that this is abusive behavior and if you have children I highly recommend getting them into trauma based therapy if they are showing any signs of struggle.
If you aren’t already using a communication tool, I recommend talking parents over one family wizard. With talking parents the calls are recorded. My ex husband records every call anyway so talking parents just makes it official that I’m being recorded.
Housecounsel
Another random recommendation for the crowd: The Athleta Essential Midi dress is going to be my summer (non-work) uniform.
Anon
Do you think it would fit like a maxi dress on a 5’2 person?
Shelle
It comes in petite (hooray! I’m 5’1″ and this is why I love Athleta)
Anonymous
Ooo I’m jealous. Last I looked it was as back ordered until June so I didn’t pull the trigger. I might have to reconsider.
Anonymous
If you had to make a drastic financial decision, would you sell a house where the payment is less than rent or drain your retirement account?
Anonymous
Drain my retirement account. You have time to rebuild that.
Anon
Yes, also because the interest rates on new homes are a lot higher than yours is (probably).
Anonymous
You have no idea how old OP is or how much is in that account or how long it took to save that amount and the difference between the house payment and a reasonable place to rent.
Could also do some of both.
Anon
Drain retirement account. At least where I live, I bought in 2017 and would be completely priced out now and rents are high. I’ve been able to take out a HELOC to pay down higher debt.
Anonymous
A HELOC would be a good solution but capacity forrepayment is not certain.
Anon
I’d need more context (like what condition is the house in, is the owner able to maintain it, is this a short term issue, etc.), but for a younger person, I’d definitely drain retirement accounts. For an older person, I’d be more inclined to think about selling the house, but it still depends a lot on the specifics.
Anon
If you sell the home, would they have to rent a new place that would cost more than the mortgage? If so, that doesn’t seem to solve the issue.
It depends on what the financial issue is. Are there expenses just more than their income? Was there some kind of emergency, but they can cover their ongoing expenses? If it’s the later, I would see if I could get a home equity line of credit before draining my retirement account. If it’s the first, I would look into how to earn more money
Anon
A thought from a different Anon:
If rent exceeds your mortgage payment, could you look into getting a roommate? I know plenty of people who owned houses and rented space to a professional about their age.
If your mortgage is, say, $2,500 a month and rent is $3k a month, getting a roommate at $1,500 a month would be one solution.
Anonymous
Thanks. The house is too small for a roommate I am not sleeping with. That may be a solution soon, but it needs to happen organically and it wouldn’t solve the problem in the short term.
Anonymous
Thanks. It is an underemployment issue. I thought I had that well worked out and then had two offers where I had all but a start date pulled for different reasons unrelated to me. I think the runway to the next offer is pretty long so looking for a quick fix while I work on that.
Anon
That may be too late for you to see. With that additional info, I would try to get a HELOC. It pushes the issue down the road some. Draining your retirement accounts will result in a big tax bill, and is not great long term
Anon
A grumble about coasters – why do so many of them not absorb any liquid AT ALL?
Anon
I co-sign this grumble! I have some nice cork ones that are better than most. I’ve also thought about making some; I’m a quilter and could whip up a few out of quilting cotton and batting.
Anonymous
Buy felt or disposable. Everything else is a joke.
Anon
+1 to paper ones.
Anonymous
I rarely post but I love these coasters so much! Yes, they’re expensive for coasters, especially if you get the case, but they do the job well.
https://graflantz.com/pages/coaster-landing-page-2023
jane
it is an affiliate link. Would be appropriate to disclose that.
Anonymous
pretty sure Kat has software running that turns links from the comments into affiliate links.
anonshmanon
really? I had no idea!
Anonymous
i’m always worried that if i’m drinking i’m going to put my glass down only halfway on the coaster and then it’ll fall over and spill my drink everywhere and i’ll be without my martini or whiskey and possibly break one of my “good” glasses…
Anonymous
Get ThirstyStone coasters. Were a game changer!
Anon
Can anybody here comment on Charlotte Stone quality and sizing (specifically width)? They’re a little spendier than my usual shoes but they’re really tempting. My feet are on the wider side, but not so wide that I only buy wide width shoes.
Anon
Yes, they will appreciate civil rights probably more than Americans who take it for granted.
Naturalized Americans vote at higher rates than native born citizens.
It’s wild to think that people fleeing oppressive regimes / violence / crime will somehow become what they feared here.
Anon
nesting fail