Coffee Break: Murdle
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I've been enjoying Murdle, a puzzle book, this summer.
I originally got it for my father, from whom I inherited my love of Sudoku, and when he gave it a thumbs up I got a copy for myself. They're short, little puzzles — in the beginning they only take a minute or two, and the more complex ones at the end can take 10-15 minutes.
What are the puzzles like, you may ask? They're generally telling a (fairly lame) murder mystery, where there are multiple suspects, weapons, locations, and motives. Then you're given a series of facts like, “whoever had the bloody knife also had blue eyes.” Later on, in addition to this, you're given 3 truths and a lie — the liar is the murderer, but it takes a bit of deduction and elimination to figure out which is the lie. All in all, they kind of remind me of logic games from the LSAT, at least to the extent I remember those. (Apparently they just removed that section from the test!)
Anyway: I like the book, and I'm enjoying working my way through it — enough that I would pack it if we were going on a beach vacation. You can get the book for under $10 through Amazon and other booksellers.
Readers, what are your favorite puzzle books and logic games?
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I’m really upset right now and don’t know what to do. My husband just confessed to me that when our baby was a newborn, there were two instances where he put his finger over his mouth to make him stop his loud crying (the baby had reflux and colic). He didn’t block his breathing or nose (nor intend to), but says the crying was so loud that he sort of “lost it” and that this happened twice to lessen the volume. He feels terrible about it now and says he knows he wasn’t patient enough and that while he never wanted to harm the baby, he feels his behavior was “rough” in those moments. Other things I witnessed or that he admits to are picking the baby up with a frustrated sigh, putting him down suddenly and walking away to catch his breath, and things like that – nothing that looked or sounded out of the ordinary. I’ve never witnessed or feared shaking or hitting, and this confession isn’t feeling like confirmation of my suspicions or telling me something I already knew. It feels totally out of the blue and unexpected from what I’ve observed, which is a loving, dedicated parent. He was crying as he told me this and has no history of violence (we’ve been together almost 20 years).
What do I do? I’m questioning everything. Is this a parent losing frustration twice months ago or an imminent safety risk to our baby? I’m absolutely spiraling.
how old is your baby now?
Almost 9 months.
Putting the baby down suddenly and walking away, as long as it is not rough, is exactly what new parents are advised to do when they are overwhelmed. I think this is good!
Yup. Unless the baby is in an unsafe situation like a bathtub, this is fine and even optimal.
OP here and it wasn’t rough like throwing him down (and not close to that), and his head and neck were always handled with care, but it looked frustrated.
Why is that a problem? Parents are allowed to be frustrated
My husband himself said he feels bad about it and like it wasn’t right. It went beyond normal frustration for him and felt wrong. That part doesn’t bother me so much; it’s the finger over the mouth that does.
Your poor husband needs someone to relieve him of his guilt over perfectly normal feelings.
I cared for non-verbal high support needs kids with autism in a specialized daycare. The behaviors could be tough (vomitting, screaming, spitting, etc.). We were taught to make sure the child was in a safe space and then tap out and get another teacher if we needed to calm ourselves down at ANY time for ANY reason with zero guilt. A child can cry for a few minutes without long term damage and it is SO much better to step away then to shake or harm a child.
Everyone gets exhausted/overwhelmed/frustrated and the best thing for your child is a regulated caregiver. I honestly wish new parents were taught this before having children so they knew it would not make them bad parents if they just needed to take a minute.
Wouldn’t staff be fired for putting a finger over a baby’s mouth?
Are you determined to be mad about this? If yes, we can’t help you. Please see sense.
+1 to Anon at 3:11. OP it seems like you’ve made up your mind about this.
Parents are taught this — at least our pediatrician drilled it into my head pretty strongly that if I ever felt like I was losing control I should put the baby down in a safe space like a crib and walk away.
It “looked frustrated”?
Lady, people get frustrated with newborns! It’s how they handle it that matters.
And said he did not handle it well and felt bad about what happened, which everyone is ignoring in these responses. He didn’t say “hey it was no biggie, just got frustrated for a second.” All the information about what happened came from him, and he was concerned.
And he is suffering from depression, so he is not a reliable narrator
Does he need support for potential paternal postpartum depression?
Yes, I think so. He said remembering how much pain the baby was in from his GI issues still makes him upset and that he feels like he was a bad father for not being patient enough when he was in pain.
Stop this. Do you think the baby should go into foster care? Is that what you want? You husband could get therapy but he is really normal. You should show him this thread. And calling CPS is so wrong. Wait till your baby finds out you did that some day.
+1. you’re spiraling. end game questions: do you want to keep your baby? do you want to keep your husband, who sounds like a dedicated father and partner? move on.
it doesn’t mean that you can’t be on heightened alert for future potential issues, but honestly that is the most that i would grant myself.
if you can’t get over it i think you need counseling.
Newborn life is tough, and I think a lot of new parents do things that they regret later on because they don’t feel kind. Actions that seem more like you’re dealing with a thing instead of a person. If he’s upset about the finger over the mouth (which doesn’t sound that bad to me?) then I’d take it as a good sign that he’s reflecting and growing.
I think you might be in a position of treading water and everything feels like an emergency. This is not an emergency. This is another overwhelmed human. You two are being honest, going through it together, and nothing here is a problem worth this degree of distress.
Both of you will get through this, and it sounds like you’ll get through it by communicating and being honest with each other. Don’t punish him.
Nothing felt like an emergency until he told me this. Things got so much better once the baby outgrew colic (and my husband agrees). I thought everything was going great and that we made it through the toughest months without issue. Well, turns out there was a big effing issue.
Please describe the issue? It’s not just putting a finger over the baby’s mouth (that didn’t block breathing in any way, shape, or form.)
Isn’t that wrong to stop crying, though? I called my best friend already (who works in CPS in another state) because she has the experience to know what is and isn’t concerning and she said it “gave her pause” that it involved a finger over the mouth. It does for me too.
I thought the whole premise of Safe Sleep was that essentially everything blocks breathing in every way, shape, and form.
And honestly, you stepped out of marital bounds by talking to your friend about this. If anyone has cause to “pause”, it’s your husband.
You called child services already? You sound fully insane
I feel sorry for your husband.
You’re way more in the wrong here than your husband for calling a friend who works for CPS (!) about this.
What big issue?!?
It sounds like the OP is spiraling a bit. OP–you will get past this. Neither of you did anything wrong. You are both ok, and your baby has two loving parents and is also ok.
I am struggling to see the big effing issue?
You calling this a “big effing issue” and consulting your CPS friend is turning it into an emergency. You’re getting reassurance here from women who aren’t sleep deprived, anxious, or too close to the situation to think rationally. You have nothing to be concerned about, your husband isn’t a bad parent, and do not bring other friends or family members into this. Everything is okay and your child is okay!
this.
he didn’t put a hand over the baby’s mouth to stop it from breathing or try to keep the baby’s mouth closed. he didn’t stuff something in the baby’s mouth to try to keep it quiet like a pacifer or bottle. he put a finger over the baby’s mouth to make the sound less loud. presumably the baby was still wailing and screaming the whole time, full of breath.
That sounds like a completely normal thing to do? And many child care experts would say that when you’re frustrated putting the baby down is a great thing to do
And what about smothering the cries by covering baby’s mouth?
Based on your description, that’s not what happened. Smothering has a real definition: cover someone or something entirely
This.
Did he put his finger over the baby’s mouth sort of imitating if you would shush someone? I could see doing that and going, Shhhh, demon spawn. Or something along those lines.
And, even if it was less than perfectly gentle, if your husband realized that and instead started to put the baby down and walk away for a minute when feeling frustrated, I think that’s a good thing.
Also Gen X and was left unsecured on a dressing table while my dad went and barfed because he couldn’t handle gross diapers.
Smothering is if he covered baby’s airways, purposefully, with the goal of cutting off air supply. This, at least as you’ve described it, does not sound like he was ‘smothering’ the baby.
I say this gently – I think you need to discuss your anxiety with a professional as it very much sounds like you have PTSD from the colic (which very much can happen!).
OP here and that comment isn’t mine. I don’t think it was smothering and didn’t use that word.
I am super confused why OP (or anyone) thinks touching a finger to the baby’s lips in a shushing motion is a problem. How is that any different than a someone trying to get an infant to accept a pacifier when the baby wants nothing to do with their binky in the moment?
OP, you didn’t use the word smothering, but your characterization and reaction only seem proportionate to smothering. You’re reacting as if this was dangerous.
What about it? “Smothering” isn’t really what happened.
Where was the smothering? I don’t see any smothering and originally you said specifically he did not block breathing in any way
That comment wasn’t OP.
I mean this kindly, but I really do not understand why you are spiraling. Your baby is safe, your husband was frustrated with a crying baby (many parents have been there), it was months ago, and again, your baby is safe. I don’t know, it feels like “absolutely spiraling” is an overreaction here.
Yup this is a huge overreaction.
This seems hyperbolic on both parts. But I am Gen X and I got cursed at, spanked (by my own parents and those of others), slapped in the face, and threatened with a meat cleaver as a kid and live a decently productive life.
tbh, I think it’s a little unfair that your husband told you at this point. Like, the baby is ok, he clearly wants to treat baby well, and now he’s just offloading his guilt by fessing up to you 6-7 months later.
Setting baby down in a safe place to go “take a minute” is 100% fine, as is the occasional “omg what else could this kid possibly want?!” frustrated sigh!
I don’t necessarily agree it was unfair of him to tell OP. It sounds like he’s turning to his spouse for support, but it does sound like OP is incapable of giving any.
Exactly my read.
+2. He’s not the one who needs an evaluation; it’s OP.
I have a 7 month old and am approaching this from a place of compassion for you. I hear you and completely understand the concern you are expressing that you feel in this moment. I think there are a few pieces at play here, all of which warrant immediate attention:
– It sounds like you may have PPA. The degree of your reaction suggests this is possible. I strongly recommend you make an appointment ASAP to be evaluated for PPA.
– Your husband may have PPD. His strong reaction, on a delayed basis, suggests this is possible. I also strongly recommend he make an appointment ASAP to be evaluated for PPD.
– You both require additional support, in the form of therapy, and otherwise. If you are in a position to do so, consider bringing in additional help in the form of a nanny or mommy’s helper (I hate that term, but it is what is common parlance). Or, call on your families to help you more.
– Couples counseling may also be worthwhile. I suspect this may breed distrust between you and your husband in terms of his abilities as a parent. Best to address this in real time.
I am so sorry you’re feeling overwhelmed by this new information. I would feel similarly. I am also so sorry your husband is feeling as he is. The infancy stage is so, so hard. Being overwhelmed happens. Just be sure to utilize all the options at your disposal – primarily therapy and additional help with the baby. Remember that a lot of therapy happens remotely now, so it should be fairly easy to integrate into your routines. Finally, I would add that you should disclose to your husband what you told your friend about this. Particularly because that friend, given his/her job, may have an obligation to report your husband to child services in your state, if he/she deems it abuse. You and your husband need to be prepared for what happens next, if he/she proceeds in that way.
But it clearly isn’t abuse. You’re frantically escalating things
No, I absolutely am not. You’re right that I also don’t think this was abuse. But: The friend expressed it “gave her pause” + the friend has a job that requires, by law, she report = reason to consider what the friend may have to do. I’m not saying the friend would be right in thinking this is abuse, or in thinking he/she must report. But I can’t account for what the friend thinks or will do here. It is just something that needs to be considered, given the facts here.
Did the friend pause because she has to run through the reporting guidance in her head before answering? That’s what I would assume here. A flippant response would not have been appropriate; of course the question gave her pause.
Chiming in to say this. You and your husband are both spiraling. You and your husband need some mental health support. You can start by talking to your regular doctor, calling a therapist, talking to your Ob-gyn office (which very likely has a list of therapists for new parents).
I say this as someone who suffered from PPD and PPA but didn’t realize until after the fact. I’m recognizing a lot of that in these posts.
It sounds like you both need support. Parenting a baby is hard. But, gently, nothing bad happened here. Your DH has had two moments that he regrets deeply, but it does not sound like he actually hurt your child. He learned from this and seems to feel terrible about it, which tells me you probably don’t need to worry about him being abusive.
I am sure this is shocking to you, but I would implore you to not spiral into “questioning everything.” You, too, may someday have a parenting reaction that you’re ashamed of later, and you will want his grace and forgiveness.
Both of you may benefit from short-term counseling to work through the ups and downs of being new parents.
To answer your question: what do you do? You forgive your husband. He did something that was not great, but also not permanently harmful. He recognizes this. He feels terrible about it. I am here to tell you that you are going to do things to your child that harm them and that you will later deeply regret. They may be different sorts of things then this, like thoughtless comments, but you are going to make mistakes. You will want your husband to give you grace when that happens. In 10 years, this is not going to keep you up at night.
An underlying assumption I see in what you wrote, which I think is dangerous to your (or any) marriage, is the assumption that you alone are the best judge of what is and isn’t okay for your baby, and beyond that, that it is your responsibility to protect your baby from your husband. This is his child too, and you should assume he loves this child as much as you do. If you treat him as someone who cannot be trusted with the baby, that will likely be incredibly hurtful to him, and it may be hard for him to forgive. And I don’t think you have any evidence that he can’t be trusted.
Agree with all of this.
+2
You are judging him for picking the baby up with a frustrated sigh and for setting the baby down to take a moment when frustrated?!?!?
Are we reading the same post?
“Other things I witnessed or that he admits to are picking the baby up with a frustrated sigh, putting him down suddenly and walking away to catch his breath, and things like that – nothing that looked or sounded out of the ordinary.”
Explain how the quote you supplied is different than the post you’re replying to.
The quote says that those behaviors weren’t concerning, not that they were a call for further judgment.
This isn’t a confession of a crime; it’s an admission that he feels badly about perfectly normal human reactions to parenting challenges, which he seems to have handled safely. He was looking to you for reassurance.
Hey all, this thread is getting pretty derailed so I’ll probably just leave, but a few clarifications: my husband was the first to be concerned about his actions and did NOT feel that it was good or right to put a finger over the baby’s mouth. It didn’t feel like good management of a stressful situation to him and he confessed it while upset and saying he felt too impatient with the baby, that it felt like force. This shocked me and seemed completely out of character – I wasn’t sure (and am still not entirely sure) whether something worse could happen if there’s another trigger. I don’t know enough to know whether putting a finger over a mouth is “normal” for a frustrated parent or a sign of anger issues, which can obviously be very dangerous for babies. I told my husband I wanted to talk about this with best friend and he was fine with it (they are also close).
I don’t have PPA or PPD, but my husband does (he was the first to say it). He’s already getting some treatment but is open to talking to someone about the birth challenges specifically.
I won’t try to defend myself against accusations that I don’t want to support him – but I can only say that I’m not sure others would feel sanguine if they were in my shoes and got blindsided by this today. It’s very hard.
You’re not ready to accept that you’re wildly out of line.
I hear that it is very scary that he was acting in a way that he thinks was not okay. It sounds like he is scared that he was not comfortable with this. That has to be scary for you too especially if you don’t know where the line is and he’s not sure either, even if he didn’t cross a line yet. I’m glad he is getting support.
Exactly. He didn’t feel comfortable with using “force,” which is how it felt to him. This felt totally out of the blue to me today. It gave my best friend with ample experience in this area pause as well, but after talking to her more, she says it wouldn’t arise to the level of professional concern in her state, which is good to hear. She knows my husband very well too.
It’s not even close to rising to the level of professional concern. This is not an issue, and going to CPS about this is the wrong course of action, as it actually escalates things more.
To answer the direct question in your first post, this is just a parent feeling frustrated, not any kind of imminent danger to your baby.
I mean literally everyone agrees that you’re wildly off base. If you aren’t ready to hear that have fun trashing your marriage over nothing.
This continues to sound like a huge overreaction by you. Even your language is so hyperbolic – blindsided, big effing issue, absolutely spiraling, etc. Take a deep breath OP.
I said earlier I think you’re incapable of supporting him and I very deliberately didn’t say you don’t want to. Those are different things.
2 things:
1 – I think some of the disconnect in the comments is some people are picturing your husband placing a single finger over the baby’s mouth vertically, like you would if you were signing shush, but not fully covering the opening. And I think you mean he fully covered the baby’s mouth so sound could not come out of it. It didn’t stop the baby from breathing, but could have if his nose had been clogged. I can see why this is concerning to both you and your husband. The other behaviors you described I understand as additional context you are recalling to look for other signs of abuse. To be clear, I don’t see abuse in what you describe.
2 – Look, my husband jiggled our son to try to soothe him at least once more aggressively than I thought was okay, and it partly concerned me because it was clear he was frustrated. When our son had a sudden, unexplained loss of consciousness around 2 months old, I wondered if it could have been caused by shaken baby syndrome – I was looking for any explanation of why this happened. (It was not shaken baby but most likely related to reflux). So I truly understand where you are coming from. Babies crying is incredibly frustrating, and there are whole advocacy campaigns around helping parents cope with this without actively abusing their children. But I think what your husband did, and what many parents probably do, is not abuse – what is scary for your husband is probably seeing how it could have become abuse. But it didn’t. And the fact that he sees that and feels terrible is a great sign of his capacity to be a great father.
Thank you. This is exactly it.
Thank you for explaining the disconnect between the vertical finger (shush shush) vs. the horizontal finger that’s more consistent with the idea of “force.” I understand better now why the husband is freaked out that he did that twice and why he doesn’t want to enter into that frame of mind again.
Exactly
Respectfully, what I think you’re missing is that he is also a human being who is going to be overly anxious sometimes and his anxiety isn’t an objective indictment of his conduct. Just because he was concerned and disappointed in himself doesn’t mean you need to assume the worst, excoriate him and try to destroy your marriage. Getting frustrated with a newborn is normal, and feeling very anxious and guilty about not being a perfect parent is ALSO normal. Instead of spiraling with him (or against him), you need to try to rationally support him through this. Then he can do the same for you when you’re irrationally anxious about your own normal imperfections.
Respectfully, you’re way over reacting.
Aside from my child’s health and well being, the thing I value the most is a mutually supportive marriage.
You are not being fair to your husband right now and if you don’t reverse course this will tear your marriage apart.
+1.
It’s somewhat surprising that this thread is full of people saying it’s no big deal that, in husband’s own words, he “lost it” on a newborn. Do people think that what he described wasn’t actually losing it, that he himself is overreacting? It doesn’t sound great to me.
He’s clearly overreacting about a non-event. They both are. They need to call the grandparents in one weekend and get some sleep.
He is realizing that he wasn’t fully in control emotionally in those moments and is scared at what could have happened. But frankly, not being fully in control of your emotions happens a lot in parenthood – this is how parents end up yelling at their kids. We never mean to, but we do lose control on some level. Every loss of control doesn’t mean you are abusing your kids, although of course some people do. But most of us are probably still in control on some level.
Yeah, seems like an emotionally stunted dude is finally experiencing the full breadth of the human experience and doesn’t know how to handle it.
No, I would not say that at all. He’s never had a baby before, so of course he hasn’t experienced what that emotional roller coaster is like.
And yet the guy throwing a dog toy against the wall once a year was an abuser? This board will give you whiplash.
But I do agree with everyone that this sounds like a parent at his breaking point, and he made a not-ideal but not dangerous choice. I would reassure both of you that this can be gotten over, especially since it sounds like he’s found better ways to cope since then.
(And I am the commenter in the single parent by choice thread who mentioned needing to “tap out” immediately sometimes and no one seemed to know what I meant….this is what I mean! These times of intense stress when you hand the baby to your partner and take five.)
SUCH whiplash, lord.
Throwing things in a fit of rage is different from sighing in frustration, putting a baby down, or even putting a finger over the baby’s mouth momentarily. A finger over the mouth is not suffocation. Walking away is exactly the right thing to do.
Throwing things instead of walking away is erratic and frightening. You don’t know what they’re going to do next. It is intended to incite fear. It is intended to intimidate you into silence. None of those things are true of what OP’s husband did.
This is the exact opposite of how it seems to me. Outside of manipulative abuse contexts, to me throwing things is like what a toddler does. Unless I have some reason to think things will escalate, I just think that the person is dysregulated and will calm down momentarily. It’s not intimidating and I don’t think it’s intended to do anything. It can still be toxic to be around someone who is throwing tantrums all the time, but it’s not scary to me.
But silencing a baby by calculatedly placing a finger just over their mouth while making sure they’re otherwise breathing? That sends chills down my spine. And then doing it again? That’s different from somebody losing their cool or losing their temper, even if it’s another kind of losing it. I think it’s a good sign that OP’s husband is worried and seeking help, and I would guess he’ll be okay. But rational actions scare me more than tantrums.
Regardless of whether you’re overreacting or your husband’s behavior was genuinely alarming, you both need counseling stat. Toddlers and preschoolers are approximately 80 billion times more frustrating than infants. I never wanted to hit my kid until she was 3. (I didn’t hit her, to be clear. But the impulse was there and scary.)
Agree. I think counseling would help both of you and toddlers are super hard. FWIW, I’m a GenX and I got yelled at, hit, slapped, insulted, as a very small kid and I’m sure my dad was pretty shouty when I was an infant. I turned out OK enough.
Right. No one gets an optimal childhood.
Men can get postpartum depression also. I would encourage him to talk with a therapist or your pediatrician for advice. It’s a big life adjustment for both parents. The period of purple crying is a good resource and also telling him its ok to put baby in the crib and cry for a little if he needs a break, it’s better to do that and walk out the room for 10 minutes to be calm than to shake the baby in a moment of frustration. It’s a good sign he feels comfortable telling you. I would also take that as a sign he may be feeling very overwhelmed with adjusting to parenting.
A commenter on described dusty pink as what the mom is supposed to wear to a custody hearing. Which reminds me, my tiny postpartum wardrobe doesn’t have anything appropriate for my upcoming custody hearings. Suggestions welcome please! Specific pieces, outfits, vibes… I’m tall, long waisted, not overweight but soft and mom-shaped.
lol, that was me, and I was picturing a sort of Diane Keaton type ensemble of a dusty rose crewneck sweater over a blouse, tucked into sensible but flattering pants with flats. Like, someone who has her i$h together but in a maternal PTA way rather than a Big Career Woman way.
Ask your attorney!
Ask your attorney. Much of this is dependent upon your geographic area, income, level of education, case facts, and your judge.
I’m the poster in the custody case. I got lucky and my case wasn’t heard.
I asked my lawyer and he said I need to be screaming mom. I sent him the links and he said it was perfect. He also told me to practice taking a breath before answering any question, 2 if needed. He also said less words are better. Don’t babble at all, no slang or profanity and no raised voice.
That was Texas… other places will be different.
Gross question, but if you or loved ones have problems with ear wax, how do you deal? I feel like half the members of my family deal with this and Debrox does nothing. I wish there were like a salon you could go to and they could vacuum or flush your ears the way they do at the ENT.
Has the ENT actually had any specific recommendations?
If you wait for them to get bad, and then try to unclog, for some of us it never works. So many folks have to do regular maintenance weekly. Like using mineral oil weekly etc..
And some folks just have to go to the ENT on a routine basis for regular cleanings. My Dad had to go every 3 months! My clinic has the NP do the cleanings and appointments are easy to get and quick. Almost like a salon! Not as cheap though.
Genetics plays a role in this.
My doctor advised mineral oil or baby oil. I apply using a Q-tip (not great, I know, but I don’t put it deep into my ear) and that has helped me avoid blockages that have sent me to the doctor in the past.
OP, my ENT told me never to use the Q-tip. I just got a small syringe online and re-use it to drop a few drops of Mineral oil in each ear, and then a piece of cotton to hold it in the ear. Ideally, you do one side at a time and keep your head tilted for several minutes so it doesn’t just run out and has time to soften the wax. Then you do the other side.
I don’t actually flush the ears with water/saline after. Just softening the wax helps it mobilize naturally on its own, and move slowly out of the canal during showers etc..
Your family like has the “dry wax” common issue running in your genes.
CVS minute clinic will do it.
Your regular doctor can do it. You can also get those lighted wand things they use at the doctor if you’re not risk averse.
I know some folks here also play video games. Has anyone else played Clair Obscur: Expedition 33? I have been sick and just finished and I am not okay!
10/10 no notes
Was this rude? My friend from college is staying with my husband and I this week. It was my husband’s birthday over the weekend, and my parents took us out for dinner, including the college friend. At the dinner table, after we received the menu, my college friend leaned over to me and whispered in my ear (pretty obviously whispering), “Is your dad paying for this?”
My college friend makes quite a bit less money than me, but both her parents are doctors. She has been going out to eat on her own at restaurants this week, so it’s not financially infeasible for her, though this place was maybe $5 an entree more than the spots she’s been going. It left a bad taste in my mouth though – both the whispering in front of everyone, and the question itself.
Could you assume good intentions? Maybe on her own she would have ordered a more expensive meal along with apps or extras, but if someone else was paying, she was going to tone it down and not be presumptuous.
Unfortunately, I didn’t read it as that. I told her “I think so,” in response to if he was paying (I was 99% sure he was, but didn’t want to assume). She responded, “I mean, it’s okay either way…” in a way that suggested preference for him paying.
How else was she supposed to discern this information? It’s totally reasonable to want to know how the bill is being paid for in a large group (especially a birthday where there might be a bigger bill than usual).
agree I think assume good intentions unless the answer was “yes” and she ordered the most expensive thing on the menu. It’s reasonable to want to know if you’re on the hook for the bottle of wine the table is splitting or whatever. Could’ve been phrased better but I wouldn’t be upset days later..
+1. Do I think it was a little weird of her to ask you that? Yes. Do I think it warrants being upset with her? No.
That’s where I fall too. It was awkward on her part, but you’re making too big a deal of it.
She’s an old friend, right? She’s clearly there because she likes you guys. Talking about money can be weird but really, there’s no real reason that it should be a “bad” question to ask a close friend. Maybe she’d be anxious for the rest of the night, wondering how the bill would be split and doing arithmetic in her head.
Yikes. I hope she has some better friends she can start eating dinner with.
How is me finding it rude to whisper loudly in front of everyone, “Is your dad paying for this?” , interrupting the entire conversation, making me a bad dinner partner? She ordered well and he did pay for it, so I don’t understand how I’m the bad guy here.
maybe as people were starting to order, she wanted to know if it was expected that everyone would split the bill? so like if someone went for the $20 app and $30 main and cocktails, maybe she would have gone with the cheaper options to lower the average per person price?
Because you’re judgmental af.
I would ask because I am known for ordering something expensive if we are paying our own way but I’ll tone it down if we are sharing a bill. In this situation I would ask because I’d never order something expensive if a friends father was paying.
So she is lacking in grace. She might have been hangry!
No, this was not rude.
Not rude. You were rude for not giving expectations ahead of time. It’s not fair to make people wonder about the logistics of a shared evening.
Agree, she was not rude you should have told her ahead of time. I hate playing the dance of are we splitting the bill evenly, paying out own way etc. Just communicate!!!!
+1 It’s very uncomfortable to not know whether you’ve been invited as a guest, or if you’re expected to share in a bill. It was very generous of your parents to take you all out, but it was reasonable for her to be uncertain of the logistics. It would have been a lot smoother if the information was known beforehand, but it’s not a bad thing to try to whisper to a friend, even though this turned awkward for you.
I do think it’s rude to pass judgement on her other expenses throughout the week, though. She’s allowed to budget and spend money on food without being resented for being
uncertain in a situation where she most probably is a guest, but might not be. I
f she’s one of the “ask culture” people and you’re a “guess person” you do get a free pass. :)
In this situation I wouldn’t have asked or offered to pay unless multiple people were taking out their wallets at the end. Would you have found that rude, too?
As someone who had quite a bit less money than many of my peers, I would have wondered this too. I would have never been brave enough to ask.
Whispering loudly is awkward. But the question is not — it’s just practical. Don’t really see how it’s relevant that her parents are doctors.
Agree with this. Ideally she would have been more discreet, but it’s not rude to want to know if you’re being hosted or sharing a bill. I think it’s rude not to tell her upfront.
Following up on the morning thread about the husband not saying no, I am having a tiny bit of trouble with cultural differences between my husband and a friend who is visiting. My friend is very blunt and direct, whereas my husband is very sweet and people-pleasing. There have been a couple of situations during her visit where I feel like there’s been tension between her overwillingness to ask for things, and his trouble saying no or setting boundaries.
For example, my husband is Hindu, but not practicing. There was a recent music video that created a ton of backlash among Hindus, as it featured one of their goddesses in very degrading poses. My friend loves the artist who created the video, and wanted to show me the video on our TV. My husband said that he didn’t want to watch it, and seemed clearly uncomfortable about it – he’d seen the discourse online, and found the video disrespectful to the community. She said “oh okay, can I just show her on my phone then?” He said yes and left the room, but I felt uncomfortable about it, since I would have preferred we just drop it and not need to show me. I don’t think he loved that it was still being played (he would never say this), but I also felt like it was hard for me to say “No, don’t play it” to her, when she had asked again to play it.
There have been a couple of other examples like this, where I haven’t been sure how much to set boundaries based on my knowledge around what he may or may not feel comfortable with (like times going to sleep) versus what he is saying he is comfortable with (“yes, I’ll join to watch the movie”). I don’t want to be vocalizing on his behalf and trying to mindread, but I also kind of resent the friend pushing on boundaries in a way that makes me feel like I need to.
You need to learn to move on from your minor resentments or chill out. Your friend was not asking too much nor did she push the boundary of insisting on showing it on the television. She was trying to gauge the room and offered a solution.
Why didn’t you say no? And also, no I don’t want to see that it sounds offensive
Sounds like your husband did a great job asserting his boundaries—he didn’t want to watch. Why didn’t you also say no if you didn’t want to watch? Sounds like your problem, not your husband’s.
+10000
I agree. I generally don’t think you can set boundaries for another adult.
Blunt and direct people don’t always “hear” people who aren’t as blunt and direct as they are. She sounds a little inconsiderate of your husband in this interaction, and I think it would be okay to shut her down more bluntly. It’s okay to shut her down on your own behalf; if it’s your preference to just drop it and not watch the video, you can speak up. I also prefer not to create uncomfortable situations when they’re easily avoided. Maybe that counts as vocalizing on his behalf, but to me it would feel like vocalizing on my behalf to make the whole situation more comfortable for me.
You can’t manage everyone’s behavior so that nobody ever makes anyone uncomfortable in any way. That is the way to crazytown. Everyone is an adult and can speak for themselves. If your husband wants to go to bed early or not watch a movie, he’s an adult, right?
This speaks to what I was feeling when I read OPs post. She was trying to be way too controlling of the situation.
Ask him how he wants you to handle confrontations. He may want you to vocalize on his behalf, and having a code word or something to ask for that may be easier for him. He may also not, in which case you know better and can distract/change subject instead.
Also, your friend was a jerk and you would have been in your right to tell her to knock it off on your behalf alone.
Wow, you definitely should have said no to your friend playing the video.
Your friend is rude, and doesn’t know how to read a room.
This doesn’t seem to be an issue of your husband’s need to please, but rather yours. Your husband articulated that he didn’t want to watch the video and left the room. If you also didn’t want to watch, why not say so to the friend? It is a completely legitimate response.
in the video example I probably would have said “oh I’ll look it up another time” and then moved on. You can be quietly supportive (which tbh sound pretty justifiable to me and the video sounds gross) without making a big ‘I refuse’ scene.
As far as bedtime vs. staying up with your friend, yeah, just everyone use your words. Husband’s tired and happy to let you guys stay up and bond? Great!
OP here – thank you for all the feedback. I think the thing I was struggling with was maybe a bit not sure why my friend insisted on showing the video, and then feeling complicit afterwards in disrespecting my husband’s culture. I didn’t know what the video was (husband had seen the discourse, I had not). But it was basically a woman dressed up as a Hindu goddess and splayed out in various gardening poses (naked with a cross jammed inside of her, for example).
The video was wildly disrespectful to my husband’s religion and I’m not sure why she insisted on playing it in my house. Had I known what it was, I would’ve said “it’s okay, I don’t need to see it.” But she was so insistent she wanted me to watch it and hear my thoughts on it, so I felt like I had to say yes. While watching it, I just felt so tense and unsure of what to even say. She was defensive of the video and saying that the artist was very earnest in her expression, and that the backlash felt overblown. I said that it felt disrespectful to Hinduism and its people, and she kind of argued about it.
Well, I mean you were complicit. You should have said no. Don’t let your friend steamroll you.
+1
Glad you let her know how disrespectful it was and I might have apologized to my husband.
but your husband did say he didn’t want to watch it and told you why? and then you watched it on her phone?
He didn’t say why – just that he didn’t want to watch it. I thought it was that the artist was dressed in Indian clothing and jewelry (I.e., cultural appropriation but not degradation or disrespect). I didn’t know about the graphic gardening aspect.
So? They didn’t force her husband to watch it. And he was the only one who expressed reservations.
I was responding to the follow-up – OP said here she was clueless about the video, but above “My husband said that he didn’t want to watch it, and seemed clearly uncomfortable about it – he’d seen the discourse online, and found the video disrespectful to the community.”
If he’d provided that context beforehand, I think OP may have acted differently. As is, just an awkward situation, and everyone should move on.
Yikes to the video. I guess I would say that I would try not to internalize what was really the friend’s social misstep here. She could have given more of a head’s up at a minimum.
Honestly I would be asking myself whether she is somehow trying to start something by bringing the controversy into your house? But maybe I’m missing that she’s herself ex-Hindu or has some other connection of her own that is making her invested in debating this.
No, she’s not Hindu. She is white. She just loves this artist and wanted to talk about the video with.
What in the world did she want to “talk” about?
How old is she – 12?
Anyone want to weigh in on my ridiculous family drama?
My siblings’ and my last surviving parent, our mom, died early in the pandemic.
MAfter her heavily mortgaged home was sold and the remainder of her debts paid, each of my mom’s children (me and two siblings) got around $50k.
I opened a joint brokerage account with each of my then high school aged children, and invested $25k for each of them in low fee index funds.
At the time I didn’t know what my siblings did with their shares. My sister has since divulged privately to me that bought a new car using her share. I’m sure the car was substantially more than $50k because in her words, she bought ALL the upgrades. (Pretty sure it was the happiest day of the car salesman’s life.) She said she had never bought a car with a big red bow on it before and felt like other people got that and so she deserved it too. I do know she is still making payments on the car, because she complains about how broke they’re making her.
This sibling has five adult kids and clearly didn’t get any inheritance from their grandma.
Recent issue is that my daughter, who recently completed her masters degree program, bought a new-to-her used car with her share of the money, which she needed because her new professional job comes with a commute to a suburban office park with no reasonable public transit options.
Anyway, she posted a pic of her “new” car on social media, one of her cousins (one of the sister’s five kids) asked how she could afford it, having just graduated, and my daughter told her cousin she was grateful for “grandma’s help” buying it.
I know my daughter kind of blew it, as I had told her that I didn’t think ber cousins got anything, but she wasn’t thinking in the moment.
Now cousins AND my sister are claiming it was “unfair” that grandma’s meager estate wasn’t split equally between the grandchildren.
Of course my sister is lying through her teeth and not admitting to her own children that she spent the money and never considered giving it to them.
I know it’s all perfectly fair but what would you do in my shoes? How would you advise your daughter?
Your daughter can simply tell her cousins that the estate was split evenly between the children. You decided to give yours to your kids and their mom decided to use hers, as was her right. So yeah it was grandma’s help, but it was really your help because grandma never gave money to your kids directly.
yeah, that’s the only thing that is causing the confusion. “oh sorry, I was thanking Grandma because she’d given money to the three kids, and my mom set some of it aside for me to use – didn’t receive anything from her on my own. So revised caption – thanks Grandma and Mom!”
Yep, this.
+1. You don’t have to lie to cover up your sister’s money management. I wouldn’t make it a judgement thing just ‘the estate was split evenly between the direct descendents. I put my portion away for my two children, which is what daughter is referring to. Your mother also received an equal portion, you can ask her how it she decided to use it.’
The sister’s money management doesn’t really have anything to do with the situation, other than the op is really judgemental about it. When you inherit something, you’re under no obligation to give it away to your kids. It’s ok to spend money on yourself.
+1
Where and how are the cousins and the sister doing this claiming that it was unfair? Are they in conversations with your daughter? with you? Is this happening on social media? (Please tell me it’s not all happening on social media.)
If it’s in conversations, you / your daughter can be off hand about it: “Oh, I put my portion of Grandma’s $ into an account for the kids.” or “Mom decided to put her portion of Grandma’s $ into accounts for me and Joe, so I used it for the car.” No need to say anything about what your sister did with her $. The adult kids can either put two and two together and figure it out, or not.
FWIW: you’re the one adding that your sister “never considered giving it” to her kids. You don’t know that. Also, she had a right to spend the $ any way she liked, just like you did, and just like your daughter did after you gave the $ to her.
it is true that OP’s daughter could’ve chosen to spend the money anyway she wanted, but i’m guessing OP figured her kids would use it for something somewhat responsible. when my grandmother passed away, my dad did something similar. split his share between me and my sister bc he didnt need the money. i honestly didn’t using it for anything specific, just lumped it in with our other money.
OP you did nothing wrong at all. Your daughter can just say that it was from grandma via my mom
Yes, the sister can spend it any way she wanted to. However, having used her own free will to spend it one way, she should not be complaining that she doesn’t have extra money to spend a different way.
OP here – story of my life with this particular sibling!
At this point, the conversation has been taken off social media, thankfully! Just DMs and texts now.
Daughter has now fully explained how I put my share away for my kids, but she hasn’t commented (as I have advised) on what happened to my sister’s share. Hopefully the cousins will figure it out on their own, but of course it doesn’t help that my sister is telling her own children that it is all terribly unfair!
My other sibling is thankfully staying well out of it.
I didn’t get anything from either set of grandparents either. I can see the cousins being upset–your daughter, like the other commenter below noted, should be thanking YOU.
I agree with this. I didn’t get anything from one set of grandparents, and it would have hurt like hell if I had thought that bequests were made to other grandchildren but not to me.
Thing is, once the money was given to the OP, it was hers. She chose to give it away, but that doesn’t mean grandma gave it to the grandkids. Words matter.
I don’t think your daughter did anything wrong (or your sister for that matter). Did your daughter even know that you chose to share the money and she wasn’t in Grandma’s will?
When you gave her the money ideally you would’ve said “Grandma left some money to Siblings and me. I’m sharing it with you but I can’t say for certain what Siblings are doing with their inheritance.” And then let her use her best (adult) judgement when talking to the family.
Your sister is welcome to tell her own kids “Grandma left this money as a gift to me and I chose to spend it on myself. When I eventually pass you’re free to choose how to spend your inheritance.” It’s a fair statement. If your sister feels guilty then she can deal with the fallout of her choices.
The real issue here is that you should have told your children back when you gave them the money that you didn’t know how your siblings were spending their own shares of the inheritance so your children shouldn’t broadcast where the funds had come from. The fix now is for you (since you are the one who erred in the first place) to explain that the estate was split evenly among the children and that you gave your share to your own children.
We had a very similar situation, even down to the amount. My husband used his share for our daughter’s college tuition, but we have no idea how his siblings spent theirs and don’t plan to discuss it.
OP wrote that she had told her daughter that, but that her daughter momentarily forgot. her daughter is human, just like everyone else. daughter probably shouldn’t have posted it about it on social media but it doesnt seem like daughter had malicious intent or anything like that.
editing my own comment as i see cousin asked daughter how she could afford it – um, that is SO rude of the cousin.
Not really. My cousins/family/friends have no issue with this kind of questioning. If people are going to flaunt a purchase on social media they should be prepared for questions. There’s a reason that people who expect privacy have an obligation to not share so publicly.
Throw your sister under the bus and just tell the kids she spent all her half. Your daughter did nothing wrong.
I guess it’s not “wrong” to be tacky.
Lying about money and the actions of othets to gingerly protect the peace is tacky. Real adults engage in emotional regulation.
Point out that your sister used grandma’s money for a nicer ride than your daughter has, and to quit her yapping.
I think your daughter’s caption should say “thanks mom!” It was your money.
+1 yep. By the time the daughter received money, it was from mom, not from grandma.
Best advice – You let it blow over and don’t get involved. Your daughter is what, at least 24 – she can handle her cousins. You will never win the battle of the even allocation, no matter how much you try to explain. You also don’t know how much support your mom gave your sister over the years, and how it actually works out.
I love this idea! I’m planning a mostly chilling by the lake/pool vacation with a friend. Any other fun suggestions to bring? Mostly we will read and chat but might be nice to have a couple fun extras. Not pool floats though I don’t think they are allowed.
A deck of cards and an easy board game to play in groups. A puzzle (I always find these super relaxing on breaks). A portable speaker so you can play music outdoors. Maybe a cooler for drinks/snacks?
I went on a girls’ weekend not too long ago where we all got *very* invested in a jigsaw puzzle! Honestly underrated activity for hanging out and chatting.
The mystery-in-a-box games can be fun with a group. Read reviews carefully; some are poorly done. We really enjoyed a Nancy Drew one that included physical clues.
I’ve enjoyed everything from Hunt a Killer. I think they have a Nancy drew one, I wonder if that’s what yours was.
That’s the one!
My best friend and I like to color with nice markers and grown-up coloring books, sometimes with colorful language. It is nice because we can still chat unlike when we are reading. We both also like to do beginner embroidery (which I realize makes us sound so old haha we are early 40’s) and so we bring our projects when we hang out. They are small enough and easy enough to stop and start.
DH’s birthday is coming soon, and I have zero ideas for gifts. The man has plenty of grilling tools, bourbon, and gadgets already. He’s not into fancy upgrades (have tried that route before). None of his hobbies require new gear. The book I bought him for Christmas is still sitting on his nightstand, untouched.
Honestly, we’re at the stage in life where we should consider giving up gifts, but he insists on wanting to still give me stuff (that I usually have to pick out anyway).
Forgot the last bit. HOWEVER, if anyone has brilliant ideas, I am all ears.
we’ve switched to experiences. It’s an excuse to splurge on a show, or weekend away, or higher-$ restaurant. It’s not a day-of surprise, instead we brainstorm together and then the birthday person decides what to do.
A new wallet? I always consider men’s sweaters a gift of love, since (generalizing) many men only own sweaters given to them by others.
If he likes cocktails, maybe the ingredients to a nice one (to include the lemons, cloves, cinnamon sticks, fancy ice cube tray)
DH and I exchange a combination of funny-but-useful gifts and nicer gifts (usually experiences). I got him a couple of funny grilling shirts from Duluth – with burgers or whatever on them. They’re surprisingly good quality! And they prevent him from burning, because otherwise he’ll just grill shirtless. He’s very patriotic so I’ll usually pick up a red white and blue something for his early July birthday; Reefs came out with a red white and blue version of their beer opener flip flops this year.
I’ve been working through his shoe collection (“collection” is a big word for like 7 pairs of shoes) to fill gaps in his footwear – things that would never occur to him but he appreciates. He resisted getting those ubiquitous Cole Haan sneakers for a long time but I think they’re his favorites now.
I got him a whiskey subscription one year from Flaviar. He doesn’t do the subscription anymore but we get the advent calendar – and actually sales just opened for this year’s calendar if you don’t mind a delayed gift. It sells out.
You said no gadgets but the smoker box for c!cktails went over really well, especially for a bourbon lover. Smoked old fashioneds are DH’s favorite.
Not OP but another woman with a hard to buy for husband with a July birthday. Thanks to your post I just added the REEF sandals to my cart. Will go great with the beer of the month subscription. I’m getting him. Thank you!
I’m so glad it helped! DH has had his for 20 years, I hope the brand is still just as good as always!
Do you cook together? If so, how about upgrading a pan or knife? Otherwise, gift him a splurgy protein and make cocktails with his bourbon for dinner.
How about this time, you ask him what he wants?
If that’s essentially how he chooses your gifts.
Tickets to a concert or comedy show.
Something consumable. Food can be a great option, but also things like lotion, sunscreen, soap, razors, etc.