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Frugal Friday’s Workwear Report: Smocked-Neck Blouse

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A woman wearing a black white long sleeve neck blouse top

Our daily workwear reports suggest one piece of work-appropriate attire in a range of prices.

I popped into my local Kohl’s for an Amazon return last week and found some great work basics as I wandered around. The Simply Vera Vera Wang line has some great sweaters and trousers, but I really liked this top, which comes in nine different colorways.

Layer it under a blazer or a sweater for a perfect business casual outfit. 

The top is $35.99 at Kohl’s and comes in XS-XXL. It also comes in plus sizes, but with fewer color options, unfortunately.

Sales of note for 12/12:

  • Nordstrom – Winter Savings Event, up to 33% off (and fragrance sets up to 15% off). Designer Clearance continues, up to 60% off.
  • Ann Taylor – 50% off almost everything
  • Banana Republic Factory – 50%-70% off everything + extra 20% off
  • Brooks Brothers – Lots of nice markdowns and clearance, including on suits, blouses, and more
  • Cuyana – Free shipping on orders of $95+ (readers love their totes!)
  • Express – $19+ Cyber steals + 25-70% off everything else
  • J.Crew – 30% off almost everything (including select cashmere)
  • J.Crew Factory – 40-70% off everything
  • Lo & Sons – Holiday sale, up to 50% off – Reader favorites include this laptop tote, this backpack, and this crossbody
  • M.M.LaFleur – 25-70% off the snuggliest styles of the season (this weekend only) Try code CORPORETTE15 for 15% off
  • Neiman Marcus – Spend $200, earn $50 gift card… up to $1000 spend, $200 gift card
  • Talbots – $19.50 HoliDeals, and 50% off your regular price purchase
  • Universal Standard – At least 40% off sitewide!

190 Comments

  1. Any good classic (or even business-casual) workwear finds this fall? If so, pls post links or how to find. My work closet is very 2019 and older and needs a refresh.

    1. This brand was stalking me on instagram and I bought a few of their mockneck dresses. I’ve been wearing them pretty regularly: https://oglmove.com/

      They bill out of Hong Kong but seem to ship domestically–I didn’t have any tariff issues.

        1. They’re ok! I re-ordered the dresses I liked in other colors. But I have to wear them with high waisted tights. They’d show too much lump/bump otherwise.

      2. I have ordered a few of their boatneck tops. I prefer the new longer length that can be tucked in. The fabric is warm and stretchy and they come with a built-in bra so that the boatneck isn’t disturbed by bra straps. I liked them so much I have reordered a couple times.
        I’m Canadian so no comment on US tariffs, sorry.

    2. Hue has great tight colors this year: dark green, burgundy, brown, etc. Talbots has Walnut colored accessories like belts, and some good brown work wear.

    3. easy swap- buy some wider-legged pants from whatever store has the best fit for you, hem them for your preferred shoe height, and tuck in the blouses you used to wear untucked with skinnies.

      1. Ha! This is what I’ve been doing since COVID. I do feel like I need some new dresses though. Not doing sheaths again.

    4. On the more expensive side but Vince’s fall collection was on point this fall for basic fall workwear. One word of warning, if you stalk it until it’s on sale – sizing on items is a bit all over the place since they are mixing more fitted and oversized looks. Would caution against buying anything final sale unless you tried it on first.

    5. I have been all about Jcrew this fall season. I needed to rebuild my personal and professional wardrobe after a nearly 100 lb weight loss and starting a fairly senior new job last month in a business casual environment. I’m trying hard to do a quasi-capsule wardrobe approach as I rebuild (current silhouettes, neutrals and filling in staples before venturing in to statement pieces) and Jcrew has been probably 80% of what I’ve kept from all the ordering/returning that’s happened (so very much….).

    6. If you search for Loft Ponte Wide Leg Pante, I got a very reasonably priced pair that is pretty comfortable and makes me look very current, even with my blouses and jardigans from pre covid.

  2. I am seeing a lot of friends kids post college acceptances (Texas, Duke). I thought kids didn’t even apply until November? I guess things have changed a lot since my time.

    1. even 25 years ago, early decision applications were due in early fall. This is about a month earlier than kids heard back then, but not crazy.

      1. I think common app opens by September so an ED person could submit early. But it’s not rolling admission at schools like Duke (others yes, so I know of kids hearing back from schools that accept most applicants), so maybe that is an athlete?

        1. This! DI athletic decisions usually come out in a batch right in late October.

          I was mortified in HS (I told only my best friend, who I swore to secrecy) that I was in to a very selective school with great athletics, as a DI athlete. We were at Knott’s Scary Farm (IYKYK) before Halloween, and my entire class kept coming up to me saying, “Is it true?” Thanks, best friend!!!

    2. The early action deadline to receive a faster response is tomorrow, so many students have been submitting applications for the past few weeks. My senior submitted the last of hers this week, but did several much earlier in October. Some schools release all of their decisions on a set date regardless, but others do rolling admissions and will issue acceptances sooner. My daughter has already received one acceptance from one of our state schools. I think some state schools have different approaches for in-state and out-of-state students too, so in-state students may be hearing back more quickly.

      1. This is the answer. When I applied in the late 90s, a small number of people did early decision but I’m not sure early action even existed? Now ED and early action (same idea but not binding) are MUCH more prevalent and used strategically for elite schools — on both the student and school side.

        1. Early action existed in the late 90s but was less prevalent. I did EA at one elite college and ED at another. I got rejected from the ED school and into the EA school, so I went there. If I’d been rejected at both I would have applied regular decision, which would have made my winter break pretty miserable.

      2. Yep. This. My senior has all his applications in. Now there’s early decision and early action (which are different). Also, the high school has an immediate decision day next week where a handful of colleges show up and make you an immediate offer. Times have changed!

    3. Early decision applications for Duke are due Nov. 3 this year, so it seems very unlikely that they’ve been accepted. But lots of state schools (not sure about Texas) have rolling admissions and notify students much earlier in the fall. Are they just talking about applications? Or are they recruited athletes?

    4. I graduated from high school in 25 years ago and had my college acceptance letter by October. Not early decision. I only applied to one school figuring that I had time to apply to others still if I was rejected. I only wanted to spend that application fee $$ once if I could help it.

    5. Are they athletes who got a “likely” letter? That’s the only way you would hear this early from a school like Duke I’m pretty sure.

      State Us have rolling admissions and start making offers in the fall but Duke etc doesn’t do that.

    7. When my daughter and her classmates were applying two years ago, we noticed that non-selective colleges would send admissions letters right away. Normal colleges sent early decision and early action letters in December and regular decision letters in early spring. One selective college sent my daughter a postcard in January or February to the effect of “we plan to admit you, so don’t commit anywhere else!” I thought this was a bit odd, like they were hedging their bets or something. If you want a kid to attend, you need to send an actual offer of admission and a financial aid letter.

      The only way I could see a kid’s being admitted to a school like Duke this early would be if they were a scholarship athlete.

      1. Yeah, these are called likely letters, and aren’t official acceptances, I believe because these schools have agreed to only make their official decisions at the same time in April, but they’re unlikely to change unless you really screw up. I got one from the Ivy I ultimately attended, and it probably did have a slightly positive impact on getting me to attend because I had a longer time where I knew I’d gotten in to think good things about the school and picture myself going there.

  3. Looking for a classic, simple, KNEE LENGTH sweater dress. I am 5’9″ so all the “midi” ones fall awkwardly below my knee but aren’t midi length so the proportions look off. Ideally work and church appropriate so not bodycon or tight. Does a unicorn exist? I’ve looked at Macys, JCPenney, Kohls in person.

    1. Talbots maybe? Check out And Other Stories — their stuff runs long and works for my kid who is 5-8. Have tried their sweater dresses but others have been long if labeled Midi.

    4. See Wool And — some of their items are heavier wool knit and Ponte and definitely some run long enough I have the button neck turtle neck dress and it is below the knee in me but I’m 5-4. Reviews are IMO very helpful.

    5. Try Gap and banana. They have some midi options which work for my daughter who is your height.

    6. My favorite knee length sweater dresses are from Anthropologie and Club Monaco, but I bought them used on Poshmark.

    8. Gap and Old Navy. If you use the code ADDON at Gap right now, you get an extra 20% off their 50% off sitewide.

    9. I’m 5’10 and almost all midis hit me at the knee or just below the knee. Might be where you’re looking.

  4. Looking for what feels like a unicorn at this point. A quarter/half zip sweatshirt that is not too heavy, not boxy and NOT cropped. I’ve struck out at Old Navy, Gap, Aritzia and Lulu. Any suggestions?

    3. do you want it to be heavy sweatshirt material or athleisure? Brands that come to mind are vineyard vines, Lilly (they do plain colors in addition to wild prints), JCrew, Tuckernuck.

    6. Peter Millar’s women’s line. I bought one from a hotel gift shop and it is delightful.

    7. I can personally recommend the LL Bean Quilted Sweatshirt 1/4 Zip Pullover Long Sleeve. I just got it in the Bright Sapphire color and I really really like it.

      1. Can also vouch for this sweatshirt. I have two – one from three seasons ago that is going strong in a forest green, and a new one in a light gray. Very comfy, some shape, full length.

      2. Wearing this now and agree! I have my eyes on a Vineyard Vines one as well when it goes on sale.

    9. I hate cropped- no one needs a cropped sweater or sweatshirt- and especially not kids!

      2. I have this and love the fabric. If you wash it in cold water then hang to dry it holds up well.

        1. It shouldn’t be necessary to hang a sweatshirt to dry in order to keep it looking nice. Why can’t companies go back to making sweatshirts and t-shirts out of cotton that can be washed and dried?

  6. My coworker is adopting a child whom he and his wife have fostered for a couple of years. It has been a long journey to get to this point so my coworker and his family have sent around formal invites to the courthouse and a casual reception at a nearby restaurant afterwards and I would like to attend. Is business casual wear okay or should I wear more formal clothes? There will be other kids there including at the courthouse so a suit seems weird. Also, is this a gift-giving occasion and if so, what would be appropriate and should the gift be to my coworker or to the child? The child is almost 3. Thank you so much.

    1. I would wear something more festive than business casual – just like a nice dress. What you would wear to a baby shower. And similar to the baby shower, I would give a gift. It’s like a shower/birthday

      1. +1 – I’d dress to celebrate not to go to court. And definitely a gift, I’d do cash for a savings account and something for the kid.

    2. Business casual is perfect. Yes, it’s in a court, but a family court, and you’ll see all manner of levels of formality.

    3. I would wear a nice dress, not necessarily a work dress, since this sounds more like a celebration/party. You definitely do not need to wear a suit.

    4. I would wear something like, what you’d wear for a baby shower at a nice restaurant or club, as opposed to business. Conservative but not “business.”

    5. Foster mom here! Family court is pretty casual and adoptions are a bright spot there. (I’ve seen the entire waiting room tear up when a toddler came in for his adoption in a shirt and tie that matched his dad.)

      I would say dress for the celebration. Wear what you would wear to a baby shower or a birthday lunch. For gifts, a contribution to the child’s savings account or a “family gift” (i.e., zoo membership, trampoline park gift card) would be fantastic.

    6. I always tell non-lawyers that they don’t need to (but can) wear a suit. Formality wise, aim for clothes that you would wear to a conservative or traditional church or synagogue (e.g., longer skirt, pants, and avoid any plunging necklines). Perfect occasion for a midi sweater dress if you are in a part of the country that is cold now.

    7. I’m a judge who does adoptions. People come in all sorts of wardrobe, so nothing is inappropriate, but I agree with folks who’ve said to dress as you would for a shower or birthday lunch. A gift is nice, but not necessary – don’t bring it to court (adoptive parents will be juggling a lot), but to the restaurant after. Congrats to the family – these really are joyful moments that remind us how much love and resilience are out there!

    8. I would wear a nice dress, but not business clothing. More like what I would wear to Easter Sunday service or a baby shower.

      As to presents, I would got a toy or book for the child and something sentimental for the parents . Maybe a nice photo frame?

    9. Assuming that adopted kiddo will now share a last name with the family, I’d do a gift with the kiddo’s full name, like a puzzle or a bookholder or even an embroidered stuffie, and a check for the kid’s savings. You could also do something sentimental like a Christmas ornament or photo frame of the entire family, if you’re close enough to have photos.

  7. Has anyone else seen the Inside Edition story on Holly Hill, the 30 y/o mom and teacher from Oklahoma? Over 2.5 years ago she was served a margarita at a Mexican restaurant that was laced with corrosive oven cleaner, resulting in 60+ procedures and her death recently. How tragic. Per the news articles, they settled a civil suit and the employee was terminated, and the family looking at criminal charges now. Who pays if the employee no longer works there and has minimal assets? Or is a criminal charge to get justice/jail time?

    I’m not a lawyer, FWIW.

    1. I just read a few news articles and I have so many questions. Was she poisoned on purpose? Was it an accident?

      1. After reading some comments on reddit it sounds like the restaurant had simple green concentrate in a food prep area and an employee thought it was margarita mix.

      2. I checked it out and someone on another site showed a big commercial size Margarita mix bottle and how *very similar* it looked to the chemical oven degreaser. That may be what happened–someone was busy, confused, didn’t read or know quite enough English to tell the difference and was going by shape and color (don’t want to stereotype but it was a Mexican restaurant and the grammar/word choice of the restaurant statement feels a bit ESL to me personally) and made a *terrible* mistake.

        1. I’m uncomfortable with the culture of “safe when used as directed” in general. It’s wild to me what dangerous products can be sold on the premise that the consumer is responsible to read and follow the product label. Landlords, landscapers, parents, etc. do not always read and follow the label instructions. A lot of people aren’t honestly literate enough to do that if they wanted to!

          Potentially unsafe products should at a minimum be packaged and labeled with scary images and colors so that people who can’t read at least know that they need to be careful.

          1. I think we should probably work on literacy and put childproof caps on dangerous chemicals.

          2. I think we should bring back more legal liability for the companies that profit off products they know are being misused.

            Lots of adults are trying to get through life with less than full cognitive capacities, especially in low paid jobs. We can’t expect everyone to have high literacy.

          3. We can expect everyone who works in food service to be capable of not poisoning patrons. We really can.

          4. We can expect every company that sells oven cleaner to put giant warning signs all over their packaging so it doesn’t look like margarita mix, even if making their product scary looking costs them some sales. We really can.

          5. I guarantee you there were labels on the package. It is reasonable to expect people to read them.

          6. It is not reasonable given literacy statistics. People often can’t read. People who can read often can’t read fine print.

            It’s CYA to put a warning label on there to absolve yourself of responsibility for products that harm people and then victim blame. It’s morally bankrupt to defend it.

          7. Some products have to be dangerous in order to fulfill their intended purpose. See, e.g., cars.

          8. The restaurant and/or the person who put the cleaning fluid in the glass is at fault here, not the company that made the cleaning fluid unless it was packaged to look like margarita mix.

          9. People who can’t identify cleaners vs margarita mix should not be working in food service, full stop. It is morally bankrupt to hold a job you cannot perform safely at the expense of someone else’s life.

          10. They also need to be able to read expiration dates for meats and ingredients for allergic patrons. They need to be able to identify what produce is subject to a listeria or ecoli recall.

            They are holding a job that could kill someone (and did here). Your position is beyond weird.

          11. Most people who can’t read have to work. This is a very dramatic example because someone was immediately and obviously affected. But you’re entirely out of touch if you think that people aren’t regularly being harmed because of product labeling aimed only at fully literate people with excellent vision. I’ve almost never had a landlord whose maintenance staff were trained or able to use pesticides, paints, finishing sprays, or cleaners appropriately. There are statistics on the harm done to disabled children and adults by products whose package design makes it look safe or edible.

          12. I’m not out of touch to expect that food handlers are able to handle food safely. That is a basic cornerstone of the industry. There are lots of jobs that do not involve serving food to humans.

          13. How do we reconcile that service jobs don’t pay a living wage yet could cause irreparable harm to someone?

          14. As a criminal defense lawyer, I can attest that we have a lot of people who are trying to make it in this world despite having an IQ of lower than 85 or have other brain damage or severe emotional or mental impairment but who are not eligible for disability. This perspective has given me more patience when shopping or dealing with any business with low wage employees. Life is hard. I am in the camp of holding business responsible for proper training and safe procedures.

          15. Those people should not be preparing food for others, so I guess I do agree that the restaurant should be held liable if it is putting someone who is not capable of the very basic skills necessary to prepare food safely for others in the position to do so. But also, people who can’t prepare food safely for others should be actively blocked from doing so.

            I can’t believe I have to say this. Do you guys think these folks should be hired by the medical field, too? Of course not. Do you think folks with untreated epilepsy should drive semitrucks? Of course not. Don’t do jobs you can’t safely do. Find a job you can safely do.

          16. Setting aside “should”, I can guarantee you those folks are being hired for min-wage jobs in the medical industry too.

          17. For me it’s less about patience than self-preservation.

            “But we put warning words in writing on a product label” should not be good enough, and there should be more liability for companies who sell products with ambiguous and misleading packaging. Nobody should die or be sent to the hospital because some marketing team decided a dangerous product would sell better if it didn’t look scary. Restaurants should also do the same thing we do at home and store edible and non-edible products in entirely different places. Lots of people can be at fault.

            But I’m realistic about the likelihood that a restaurant will serve allergen-free food. I’m realistic about the likelihood that a healthcare worker hasn’t mixed up my identity or meds with someone else’s. I’m realistic about whether a home care worker is going to wash their hands without being asked. People have jobs they’re not fully qualified for all of the time. Many people are struggling to get through their day. Most mistakes don’t send anyone to the hospital! But mistakes are happening. A lot of workplaces aren’t great places to work and don’t pay all that well, and so there’s understaffing and churn and underqualified workers. That’s the reality in my world anyway.

          18. Sure, there is always a gap between reality and ideals. This person seems to be arguing it’s totally cool for food service workers to lack the basic skills necessary to safely prepare foods — not to sometimes make mistakes, but to always lack the skill. It isn’t. That’s absurd. If you’re handling things that go into other people’s bodies, you need to have the skills necessary to do so. You might make mistakes, but that’s very different than just not even having the baseline competency at all.

          19. How do you propose to handle the thousands and thousands of products that are safe when used as instructed but potentially unsafe when used in a dangerous manner? How is making it scary and dangerous helpful here? We make it look scary and then someone who isn’t sufficiently literate to read the label is some how supposed to understand that it’s only unsafe when you use it incorrectly, but safe when used correctly? Knowing that you need to “be careful” doesn’t actually give guidance on what you should or shouldn’t do.

          21. I think you are incredibly out of touch if you think the average minimum wage work is literate. And things need to be designed with that fact in mind.

          22. This is a crazy take. The bartender making the drinks should absolutely be required to speak the common native language and read well enough to see what he’s pouring. There are many unskilled positions in a restaurant where I can see the line being more blurred, but there should be a higher bar when you are hired to mix alcohol.

            And this is not the fault of the cleaning company allowing people to use its product off-label…it was a tragic, careless accident. We have to maintain some level of personal responsibility in society, this is ridiculous.

    2. ISK but my guess is no one. My cousin was killed by a guy who already lost his license for DWI with a car owned by someone else with the state minimum of 50K liability insurance. The answer here was 50K immediately tendered by the auto insurance company and no one had any other assets (renters, guy going back to jail, etc.).

    3. And the hospital and doctors and any insurance she had probably have liens on or subrogation rights to any lawsuit recoveries but everyone is likely judgment proof.

      I want to be harmed by someone who is single no kids but has a GWagon and a house and a good umbrella policy. Not really but the odds are that the person who does you wrong is a deadbeat not a Kennedy.

    4. Criminal charges would result in jail time but can only be brought by a prosecutor, not the family of the victim. The family can only bring a civil suit for damages. They might be able to get damages from the restaurant if the ex-employee is bankrupt but it would depend on the facts.

    5. Former pi attorney here. They likely got some money from the restaurant but you’re right that the restaurant worker in a case like this is likely insolvent. When you read about huge judgements and settlements in cases like this it’s likely because someone has deep pockets, like a giant restaurant chain. It seems unfair but you’re better off getting hurt by people or companies with lots of money. Criminal charges will obviously not help the family financially.

      1. Like I don’t even see how this is a crime by the worker or even the company. “Standard practices” is a low bar to clear vs ideal practices.

        1. If the worker should’ve had a food service license and didn’t, I can see criminal liability resulting from that. The penalty is probably a fine, though.

    6. The family presumably filed the civil suit against the restaurant, not the employee, since the employee was unlikely to have any assets. So the restaurant and its insurer would pay the civil settlement.

    7. The employee may be “judgment proof,” which means they have no assets, so no money can be recovered by the family. I do wonder whether anyone thought about suing the oven cleaner company, that’s the sort of “deep pockets” defendant that might be interesting to a plaintiff’s attorney. Criminal charges can mean prison, but can mean fines as well. That said, it’s not really the family’s call, it’s the decision of the district attorney.

  8. One of my ‘do the things’ items was to go back to therapy for some issues around parenting/eldercare. It has been so, so helpful to have someone else validate that yes, this is really hard and doubly so if it’s eldercare for cruddy parents.
    Also, having another adult say ‘hey, that thing parent did/said when you were younger was was really cruel and I’m sorry that happened’ is incredibly healing.

    2. Seconding this! I used to think that therapy was for “crazy” people. After going through some tough stuff, the most healing part for me was having a reasonable adult tell me that I wasn’t crazy and that this stuff was really hard.

    3. Yes! Therapy is not just for mental illness — it can be helpful whenever you’re going through something difficult or stressful. I spent about 6 months in therapy when my kid got disability diagnosis, and it was priceless to be able to talk through options and how I felt about everything without dumping on my friends and family.

    4. Yes! I have a tendency towards anxiety and depression and had done a lot of therapy when I was in college and in my late 20s. But aging parents + my son getting to the age I was when I really started struggling has made it so helpful for me to get back into therapy. Different stages of life bring up different things.

    5. I’m envious. I’ve tried to find a therapist for the same set of issues – relationships with young adult kids, and eldercare for parents who weren’t good parents to me. But I can’t find anyone who is accepting new clients and takes insurance in my area due to massive shortage of mental health professionals. I feel like it would be helpful.

      1. I did therapy over the phone (8 weekly sessions or so), through a program offered for free through my insurance called AbleTo. I would have preferred in person, but it was still very helpful. Maybe you can access a telehealth option? We didn’t even do video call, it was just old fashioned phone calls, but it helped.

      3. I am mostly paying out of pocket to see someone out of network, which I realize is a real luxury. I have great insurance in general, but mental health coverage always sucks.

      4. I’ve had good luck with a company called Alma. Takes insurance. All telehealh. You can narrow their list of providers down by specific areas you need help with. Easy to work with. Both me and my adult child have been very happy with them.

    6. Agreed! I’ve been lucky to find a terrific therapist who helped with essentially coaching through my mom’s illness and death and some attendant challenging family dynamics, and has since supported me in constructively dealing with my daughter’s mental health challenges. Somebody who can tell me I’m not nuts to think this is all really hard, and also to help tweak my thinking and approach in certain specific situations, has been a godsend.

  9. I’m a 10-year law partner. I started my career in a non-traditional fashion and honestly have had pretty smooth sailing – steady work, like my clients, good pay, good mentors. I recently learned multiple members of our first-year associate group are crying multiple times per day due to the stress of being a first year/attorney. (Relevant – We don’t have any billable expectations on them for the first six months, they need to enter time but we don’t look at their hours until month 4 when we prep them for month 6.) I admit, I am an Old. Is that emotion normal now? I saw two crying and stepped in to check in on them – they told me it is so stressful not knowing how to do things, and finding partners to ask questions, and wondering if they should be lawyers…are there ways my firm can help these folks through it?

    1. My Not An Old answer is that level of emotion is a little strange but within the realm of normal – like, crying once a day is probably median, and multiple times/day is within a standard deviation of that. But you cry in the bathroom stalls, not at your desk.

      But honestly, I don’t think you or your firm can very realistically do much about it, beyond just typical good management. It’s bigger problems than one company.

      1. I’m not in Big Law but I’m in Big Finance and and crying 1x/day about job-related stress is absolutely not median, and should not be accepted as such.

        1. Not everyone-crying-every-day-forever, but for your new hires though? (in private)

        2. Also in Big Finance. I can recall tears or crying over a 25 year career probably 10-20 times, and only 2-3 times in front of a boss or coworker. This does not sound normal.

    2. I think you should talk to a handful and ask them what they are struggling with. Are they unfamiliar with your IT? Are they struggling to identify, understand, and use legal resources available? Is it the work itself (i.e., how to write a brief, how to find and revise a sample motion)? Or something else? And then have the firm organize some training sessions on those issues.
      Being a first year is stressful. It always has been. What makes it stressful varies between firms and practice areas, though.

    3. do you support midlevel associates taking time to mentor? those first few months are intimidating and overwhelming as you realize just how little law school actually prepares you for life at a firm – and you don’t really know what’s appropriate to ask about vs. what you’ll look like an idiot asking about, from a partner’s perspective, so you’re worrying not only about the work, but about the worrying itself.

      1. This is great advice. Part of your post that stood out to me was the associate saying it’s “so stressful not knowing how to do things, and finding partners to ask questions,” and it seems to me that maybe it would be possible to take some stress out of that. I think this board often says that associates need to bring partners solutions, not problems, and for what it’s worth, I got that message (from here and elsewhere!) way too hard before I started working in a firm and ended up asking for much much less help and guidance than I should have. I thought I was supposed to find, solve, and do a lot of things on my own that I just shouldn’t, and to the firm, it looked like I was doing bad work but thinking it was good work (since I wasn’t asking for anything).

        You might also encourage partners to think through assignments from the perspective of an associate when they’re giving them. It’s easy for an associate to think the partner has given her everything she needs from the partner to do an assignment without that actually being true. A huge way law firm work is different from law school is that your professors have actually looked at what they’re giving you and thought through what you’ll need to do the assignment. In my experience, law firm partners have thought through nothing other than “this assignment is an appropriate-ish level for this associate, probably, based on the low detail email that has come in from the client. I will forward the email and the associate will tell me what she needs to know about this.” New associates don’t know enough to ask for what they need. I’m suggesting you encourage partners to do some more advance thought, but I think you could also use midlevels for this. A system where every assignment an associate gets she takes to a midlevel to talk through what it is, how to approach it, what she should ask the partner for, etc. could be really good.

    4. I was a non traditional law student turned lawyer 30 years ago and I remember crying all the time my first six months. I just would have died if a partner knew about it. I think it’s normal adjusting to the workload, which was like nothing I’d seen in my pre-law career and can be overwhelming. If they ask, I’d just tell them it gets better, takes some time.

      2. Yeah, I may not have actually cried, but I wanted to cry every single day for the first couple of years, and that was 400-plus years ago. I always tell young lawyers that it takes two years to feel like you have a decent handle on what you’re doing.

    5. My answer as a Moderately Old is that they will either sink or swim. It is very normal to be overwhelmed as a first year. The ones who learn to manage the hard will succeed; the ones who don’t won’t.

      I generally think you should leave them to figure it out. My guess is that they’ve had a lot of emotional support thus far, and this is the result — a need for more of it.

    6. I hate to say this, as a fellow Old, but I feel like workplaces are now much more indulgent around people’s reactions to stress. I cried at work a few times as a young person just out of college and was told in no uncertain terms that was unacceptable and I should put on my big-girl panties and be more professional. Whereas my current corporate workplace spends an enormous amount of effort and money helping staff address various woes which we were just told to figure out how to cope with – stress, uncertainty, etc. Yes, it’s a kinder world now, but you aren’t wrong in noticing the difference.

      1. I actually don’t think it’s all that kind. It implies that people think there’s a sort of inherent fragility in younger humans, like they cannot figure this out on their own. Mentorship and some support are wonderful, but I think we’ve pushed past that in many regards into something less healthy.

        1. I agree it’s not healthy. It’s nice that therapy isn’t something you have to keep super secret any more, but OTOH, I did not appreciate my (possibly over-therapized) boss demanding that I go to therapy when I gave her honest feedback (which she also demanded) about how something she had done made me feel. She didn’t agree with how I felt, so therefore I must be in need of mental health assistance. Yuck. The lesson I took away felt very old fashioned: NEVER tell your employer your feelings.

    7. I think these are normal feelings for new attorneys. The difference is them being open about these feelings at work!

      I always tell new attorneys that you don’t know how to do things for the first three years at least.

    8. This brings back a repeated conversation that I had with multiple people as a junior associate in BigLaw after an office move about 12 years ago. The new offices had glass walls, and EVERYONE was like, “wait, but how are we supposed to cry in our offices now?”

      1. Also had this conversation, but the question was how we were supposed to sleep in our offices at 2 am since there was now no way to get them dark!

    9. I’m not in big law and genuinely curious. Are all the men associates doing this too? It just feels like such a waste taking such talented people and spending so much money and then having them flail and be miserable.

      1. It seems like everyone under 25 is doing this at my office. Idk what happened in 2000, but there is a real gulf between a 90s baby and a 00s baby.

        1. Actually, I think I’d extend that up to 28. So maybe it was something in 1997!

          1. Y’all should read “The Anxious Generation” by Jonathan Haidt. Lots to say about this

        2. The constant supervision did not prepare GenZ for adulthood. Now they have loads of academic homework and very little indepedant time for self-directed hobbies or play. Generations before could run around outside after school. Add into that, COVID hit just as they were getting ready to leave the next.

      2. My theory is that it is the COVID cohort hitting the work place. They missed out on part time and summer jobs, group projects in the library and the other socialization that typically happens in university when you have to learn handle “stuff.” Yes, they academically learned remotely but it wasn’t the same. Professions that hire right out of undergrad saw this a few years ago, and now these kids have made it through law school.

        1. Do they have professional skills classes in law school? I feel like the difference is not how we (millennials/gen X) felt as associates, but that we internalized the lesson of never making it anyone else’s problem.

  10. How much visibility / consistency do you have from your cleaning service on their timing? Although of course the days ours comes is predictable, her arrival time varies widely – it can be 11, 3, 5. It bothers me a little bit (specifically the 5 o’clock arrival right as I’m getting home with my kids too) but I’ve never said anything since I don’t know how fussy I’m being.

    1. We have an individual now who comes at the exact same time every time, but when we had a service it was a 1-2 hour arrival window. Coming anywhere from 11-5 is an huge range and would not work for our family.

    2. they give us a text before but we have a standard time of 9 am on fridays. sometimes they’ll come as late as 12. sometimes it’s one girl, sometimes two, so the time they leave vary. (we also alternate biweekly visits between bigger cleans and smaller cleans.) i think you’re within your rights to say something like, we’ll need the kitchen at 5, or we hate to be under foot so just fyi the kids will be home at 5.

    3. I spoke to her with words and asked that she arrive between 9-11 or check with me first before picking a different time and so she does. People aren’t mind readers just say “hey anything after 3 doesn’t work for me.”

      1. +1. Use your words. Tell her they need to be gone by 5.

        I had one cleaning crew that would annoy the snot out of me by consistently texting, “Hey, we’ll be there at 11 tomorrow.” “We’ll be there at 10:30 today.” “Looks like 11:15 now.” “We’re on our way!” “Julie left her cleanser at the last house…” “Traffic…” OMFG, I don’t care that much.

    4. Our service calls us the day before with a time. Usually it’s 8 am and they arrive on time. (We WFH so this is doable). If it’s a later time like 10 or 11, the exact arrival time is less predictable since they might have gotten delayed in traffic or at a prior job. But I wouldn’t want a 5 pm cleaning and I encourage you to ask them for an earlier time, even if they have to switch you to a different day.

    5. Ours varies from time to time, but they are generally arriving in the same 2-3 hour window. It’s a local small business, so there are several employees but it isn’t a big operation. I get a text the day before letting me know exactly who is coming and giving me a 1-hour arrival window.

    6. Arrives within the same 2-hour window each time (mid-morning). The point is they are cleaning when we are not busy using the spaces- in particular the kitchen- so a 5pm start would defeat the entire purpose. I would make it clear you need your cleaning done during ‘business hours.’

    7. I asked them to come after 9am and before 3pm which is least disruptive to our busy household but still give some needed flexibility.

    8. Mine was similar until I spoke with her and said that anything starting after 4pm doesn’t work, because we’ll be home with the kids before they finish. Now she comes in the morning

    9. Mine come at roughly the same time, but I also check in the day before.

      You can absolutely tell them that you want them to finish by 4pm.

    10. You’re not being fussy. They need some flexibility due to traffic, particularly dirty houses before yours, employees out sick, etc. But you can definitely talk to them about establishing a window, and it’s not at all unreasonable to ask them to be sure to be done by 4:00.

    11. I ask for them to let me
      Know if it will be any time slot other than our 11am (ish). I know they claim three houses per day and I’m usually the second one but sometimes we get switched around and that’s when I ask to be notified.

  11. So if you are buying your insurance on the Marketplace, what does your 2026 premium look like? How bad is the increase?

    If you get your insurance through work, how big is your increase?

    I’m in Illinois. Blue Cross Blue Shield PPO will be up to ~$1570 per month.
    Just for me. I’m in my 50s.
    And I’m relieved it isn’t worse. Increased about 15%.

    1. Up about 20%. Young, healthy, not getting tax credits, although I’d probably get them next year (if they come back) due the labor market in my sector collapsing. I can’t look for other options because our state’s marketplace website is conveniently “down for maintenance”; but this was already the absolute cheapest, not actually useful for health care but worth having in case I get hit by a truck plan, so I don’t think I’ll find anything better. I get the risks of being uninsured, but I’m considering it – there’s also risks to all the other things I’m skimping on in order to stay insured.

    2. monthly premium is going up $300 for us, from $1350 to $1650. annoying. that’s the HSA plan.

    3. I’m also worried about what will and won’t be covered. We’ve had terrible experiences with non-medical switching and plan exclusions in the past.

    4. I am very lucky. I’m a state employee with Blue Cross Blue Shield PPO. Insuring only myself and not a family. my increase is 2.8%.

          1. Still useful. It’s amazing how good your insurance is, if it is increasing so little.

  13. I am trying to reply to the college acceptance thread and keep getting “page not found” when I click post.

  14. Dry skin season is starting and this year I would like to put some hand lotion near the kitchen and bathroom sinks. I know hand cream is more emollient but hand lotion in a pump bottle will be easier, and will prevent it from migrating to someone’s purse or pocket. Any recs for somewhat luxurious hand lotion in a pretty or elegant pump bottle? (We have a young kid who is accident-prone so we avoid glass bottles.)

    1. I really like the Williams Sonoma Soap and Lotion sets. They have year-round and seasonal scents. CO Bigelow is great too.

      1. Co-sign this. My mom always had the three-piece sets in her kitchen and having the lotion right by the soap made it easy to get in the habit of using it after washing.

      1. Cerave really is the most effective. The pump version for the cream is available at Costco. Dermatologists have recommended for my daughter who’s prone to eczema (between flares).

    3. Trader Joe’s has a hand lotion that is non-scented and non-greasy (two huge things for me after I wash my hands). It’s not the most hydrating thing ever, but it’s enough to ward off dryness. The bottle has a pump and is decent looking.

      1. I love Neutrogena Hydro Boost Body Gel Cream, which is also non-scented and non-greasy and is nicely hydrating. Comes in a blue pump bottle.

    4. I keep hand cream at all the sinks too. I prefer ones that aren’t strongly scented and are more emollient, which rules out a lot of the thinner ones you might find at TJMaxx, Marshall’s, etc.

      How spendy? A few good options:
      – Eucerin Advanced Repair
      – Kiehl’s Crème de Corp (so good! I buy the big one with a pump)
      – L’Occitane Shea Butter (the tall unscented one)
      – Also, if you want one with a retinol, Gold Bond makes a pump version, sometimes you have to search a bit for it

  15. Sydney Sweeney’s dress really did not need to be transparent. She could have worn something under. It’s was just not an appropriate outfit to force on captive audience.

    1. She wants attention and she’s a vile person with horrific morals. The best we can do is ignore her so she disappears into obscurity with the crappy man she deserves.

        1. You have a healthy relationship with the internet and rage content and should maintain that approach.

    4. Looks like it served its purpose because here we are, talking about her.

    6. Not sure that she revealed more than other celebrities. She looks very classy when compared to Julia Fox’s several basically-naked looks.
      Many celebrities have worn equally revealing dresses on the red carpet and other awards shows. Emily Ratajkowski, Rose Magowan, Rhianna, JLo, Heidi Klum, Charli XCX, MEgan Fox, Kim K, Ciara, Doja Cat, Cristina Ricci, Florence Pugh, Miley Cyrus, Alexandra Daddario, Olivia Wilde, Janelle Monáe, Kendall Jenner, Camila Morrone, Sharon Stone, so many more.
      It’s nothing new. She also looks stunning. They all do.

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