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Wednesday’s Workwear Report: Belted Sheath Dress

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A woman wearing a black dress with brown belt and brown heels

Our daily workwear reports suggest one piece of work-appropriate attire in a range of prices.

I’m always a little bit nervous about front pleats on pants, skirts, dresses, or anything else, but for some reason, it looks like this dress from Donna Karan just works. The pleats add some shape without adding volume, and the belt really pulls it all together. Add a fun shoe and you’ve got yourself a lovely spring-y look. 

The dress is $159 at Nordstrom and comes in sizes 2-14. 

Sales of note for 4/24:

374 Comments

  1. The discussion about exercise-filled days was very interesting! What are your top 3 exercise forms? For me it’s lifting, walking, and reformer Pilates.

    2. You are me! Walking (daily), reformer pilates (2 to 3x a week), and strength training 2x a week.

    3. Top three faves are mountain biking, hiking, and skiing. I more often do walking and Pilates during the workweek.

      Sidebar but since becoming a mom, I’ve found that I appreciate messages of encouragement to get out there and do more – my good friend and I were discussing this and she feels the same. Those “just step back, this is a phase of life, you can exercise again when the kids are older” messages just don’t work for us. Stuff more like “ten minutes is better than zero” or “it will feel that much better to get stronger for your kids” resonates so much more. Exercise is actually MORE of a priority now.

      1. When my kids were very small I had a version of that. “If you only have time for one mile, run the one mile.” I usually felt so much better after even one mile.

        1. Exactly. I understand the intent of the other messaging but it just did not resonate with me at all.

      2. Interesting! I feel better with the “you can exercise again when the kids are older” messaging, but I also find the “get up before your kids do and work out” advice useless for my circumstances. That said, I do try to adhere to the “ten minutes is better than zero” philosophy in practice.

      3. 100% agree. But given that my kids are a huge reason why I’m exercising, I often include them. They can be the weight for some of my weight training, they can “do” a YouTube yoga video with me. Getting up early or finding a babysitter so I have time to exercise by myself is not a priority.

    6. Walking, cycling, skiing! I detest gyms – something about the plasticky stranger-sweaty-air just has me screaming for fresh air outside.

      1. You play field hockey as an adult? Tell me more. Hoping I can find a >50 women’s hoops league somewhere in the universe.

        1. I just found it via google search! It’s an adult league but not by age group – we have early 20s through early 60s

    8. Hiking/backpacking, rock climbing, cycling (outside only stationary bike are miserable hamster wheels), and yoga. Canoeing a river is also enjoyable, but not for day trip activities, I only do multi-day canoe trips because of the environment I live in.

    9. Running, horseback riding, and my preferred boutique workout of the moment–currently Solidcore but I’ve done barre and Pilates in the past. I also walk a lot, whether just a lap of the block on my lunch break or hiking on the weekends.

      I could very easily see myself picking up golf in retirement.

    11. Dancing, running, and weightlifting. I do a dance fitness class 2x a week, run 3 miles once a week, and lift weights twice a week.

    12. I have been signing up for half-marathons every six months to force me to train and run a few times a week. This way, I can’t slack on running. Having to train for a 13 mile run is a lot, but it is also doable. I also try to fit in a step class or a body pump class 1-3 times a week.

  2. Heard something a bit odd from my optician recently and wondering if anyone here has any insight. I’m in my 60’s, and my last two annual eye exams (at the opthamologist) have resulted in pretty significant prescription changes. This year in particular, I knew my vision had worsened. He looked at the new prescription and said that the increase in power was clearly to counteract a cataract, and that opthamalogists are incented by the insurance companies to push surgery out far past when it is warranted. I was a bit surprised (in part because this is not in his financial best interest – he makes more if I continue to need very strong precription lens) and it did make me wonder. The eye doc did say there is a cataract in one eye we will monitor. I trust both professionals, and will do not want eye surgery (ever), but wonder if there is anyone here in the eye biz that can shed any light.

    1. Well I don’t know about the business side of things but my dad had cataracts in both eyes in his late 40s. His vision was severely impacted and it was getting to be not safe for him to drive, especially at night. He got the surgery to remove them probably 20 years ago and has not even needed glasses since.

      1. I feel that both parents and my grandmother have had this done and it was helpful. A family dog is to the point where his eyes are milky looking and I’m sure it’s all just stippling to him. I’m glad it’s not like that for people.

    2. If you are near NY I highly recommend Mackool Eye Institute. They are the best of the best, my ophthalmologist will only send cataract patients to them.

    3. Well, when I got LASIK in my 40s, my surgeon said good to do it then and that most people get it eventually with cataract surgery. I don’t know why you’d put it off or avoid it when it fixes the issue and gives you vision.

      1. I think waiting for surgery runs the risk of having other age-related complications. Surgery at 80 would be no joke to recover from. I’d rather have the cataracts that it book 40+ years to get done early so that I get a reset for the back half of life where I expect to be dealing with more serious things to take precedence. Vision is important and I’d like to take it for granted with doing this early vs letting it slide until maybe I’m also dealing with T2D and also an elderly parent’s issues.

        1. My husband had cataract surgery on both eyes when he was 81, no problems. It’s not like a general anesthesia process where the risk increases significantly with age. I don’t see why one would have surgery before it is needed and insurance would not cover until needed.

          3. I know someone who did a hip replacement on the early side so that he’s not too old for when he will need the second one. He didn’t want to need a surgery to maintain mobility when he is >80.

          4. But if it isn’t affecting vision? I did not see anyone except OP who reported what the doctor said. If it is affecting vision, of course! But I would not do at a younger age if vision impairment were not involved.

          5. And you reset the clock when you get it sooner. If OP has cataracts now, get the surgery now. She might not need it a second time.

          6. Why wait until your vision is impaired if you can remove the cataract now, before it gets to that point?

          7. Because any surgery carries risks and involves recovery time. Why mess with it unless your vision is actually impaired?

          8. Because there is truth to the adage about an ounce of prevention being worth a pound of cure.

    4. where do you live. i am not an ophthalmologist but my father is. he is not in it for the money and doesnt even operate anymore. what the optometrist said doesn’t make sense. the reimbursement rate for the cataract surgery is the same no matter when you do it. it can be considered risky to wait longer, so id be surprised if your ophthalmologist is pushing it out for the sake of pushing. it really is NOT a big deal surgery though i understand the idea of eye surgery can be scary.

      1. +1 you should get surgery to fix your cataract! It will improve your quality of life.

      2. yes I’ll caveat my comment with we have an Opthalmalogist in town who draws it all out for more money, lots of pre and post appts. and they’re not a very good surgeon either. That is not the norm, your father is more the norm. But all the ODs and MDs are aware of course, but would also never tell this to a patient. this is why I suggest seeing an OD, they’d steer you toward a good and ethical MD.

    5. are you in the US? I ask bc in the US the optician doens’t really play much of a role in this scenario like in other countries. Optician =person who helps you pick glasses, ophthalmologist (MD)=eye surgeon, optometrist (OD)=eye doctor. in the US surgeons only get paid to cut, so they push for surgery earlier, and then lots of follow up appts. I guess they could pad appts on the front end too… Typically in the US ODs and the MDs are in conflict for the reasons you are stating. opticians would want you in glasses with changing prescriptions too. DH is an OD. Maybe see an OD, they see all kinds and not just the severe cases that get sent to MDs. Find one that has a more medical focus than just vision.

    6. I wonder if the optician was referring to the prior authorization process? Most insurance carriers require authorization for elective procedures like cataract surgery, and the process of getting approval can be onerous for the physician’s office. There are often very specific guidelines to authorize surgery, like the cataract must cover a specific percentage of the lens or reduce vision by a specific amount.

    7. Why don’t you want cataract removal surgery ever? A procedure that can save your vision, that is relatively simple and is essentially curative with one short procedure. Have you never had a medical problem, or have someone in your family who had a bad outcome?

      I have friends losing their vision due to macular degeneration and poorly controlled glaucoma who would kill for a simple cataract that can be removed with out expensive life long therapies and progressive vision loss.

      Your post doesn’t make sense to me, so I think we are missing something. There is no incentive (?) for ophthalmologists to delay cataract surgery. Insurance companies do have criteria that must be met for paying for cataract surgery, and this is not the doctor’s “fault”. Part of me suspects the motives of your optometrist?

  3. relatively low stakes question – i hope – i’ve decided i’m treating myself with my bonus and buying over-ear headphones. does anyone have strong feelings about the sony xm6 vs. the bose quietcomfort ultra 2s? they seem functionally the same for the average person, but for some reason i just can’t decide!

      2. +1 – my Bose headphones from the 2010s are still kicking. My teen ‘borrows’ my upgraded ones and they are legitimately fantastic.

    2. FWIW, I thought I’d use those all the time but never want to give them carryon real estate when traveling so I default to the small ones.

      1. I clip my headphone case to the outside of my under-seat bag with a carabiner.

        Somehow the noise cancelling makes flights less exhausting. I leave my headphones on in noise cancelling mode even if I’m not listening to anything.

      2. Counterpoint, I held out on them for so long for this reason thinking my airpods were sufficient and they are now my favorite thing. Even without listening to music, they are like a weighted blanket for my ears on the plane. Team Bose.

    3. A friend who’s an acoustical engineer just researched the over ear headphones with best noise canceling. She said Sony WH 1000xm6 looked like the best. I notice the sound quality is richer than my Bose quiet comfort earbuds 2, but for normal use I would just base on price.

    4. I used the original Bose and then a later upgrade for years. Last repurchase I switched to Sony and will not switch back.

      I do however think that actual sound quality is better with headphones without noise cancelling, and my best home headphones are without.

    6. Not one of the choices you gave, but I love my over the ear Shokz headphones I got from costco.

  4. Got a Peloton a few years ago so now it’s bike riding – I got a speaker for the “exercise room” and I blast the music and can *almost* convince myself I’m in a club. I also got the Peloton Guide as a present and that has gotten me doing more strength workouts, which I love.

  5. My social media feed is all 90s minimalism now. I love it. I think I imprinted on it and it explains how I dress “strict,” as I have read people say in France, with a lot of blacks and neutrals, and don’t have much of an accessory game beyond good shoes and bags and a couple scarves I know to be cooperative. That said, people wore panty hose in the 90s, no? Or is that when it stopped?

    1. I was still required to wear hose at my finance job in the mid 2000s! The bare leg trend started in the late 90s/early 2000s for fashion-y jobs but really didn’t become accepted in corporate circles for years and years after that.

    2. I started working in biglaw in 2010. Hose were not an everyday item then, at least in DC. But you always wore them for a big event, like a deposition or trial. I don’t remember when exactly that went away. Maybe shortly before Covid? And I have never worn them in the post-covid world.

    3. When I started as a public defender in 1996, panty hose were a given. By 1998 I started seeing the younger attorneys with bare legs. It was almost ten years before I gave them up. I wish they would come back in style for formal wear because they make my legs look prettier.

      1. Honestly, I still wear them periodically because my office is an icebox and I get random cuts and bruises on my legs (or bug bites).

    4. My finance job’s employee handbook required hose until ~2015. Not that we followed that policy, but even wearing ankle pants with bare legs was seen as something of risqué choice in my office as recent as last decade.

    5. It was definitely expected if you were wearing a skirt or a dress in an office setting. You could often get away without it if it was a long skirt or maybe a summery dress but no matter what Ally McBeal led you to believe, hose was pretty much required in court. Also pant suits were sort of controversial – my law school definitely encouraged the wearing of skirt suits.

    6. My first Finance job on Wall Street was summer of 2001. People were sent home from my analyst training for having bare legs (we were warned, even when it was sweltering). It was also super-great to tuck blouses into pantyhose!

  6. I find this dress hideous, TBH!

    Can I get some good vibes for my DD? She is hearing from colleges tomorrow. I am trying not to panic and reminding myself she will be fine wherever she goes (but selfishly I don’t want her across the country!!!).

    1. Oh, is this the dreaded Ivy Day? Prayers. I feel like kids live in a fish bowl. Next year, we will have a senior and I’m dreading this aspect of it. My plan is just to have favorite items at the ready: trip to Ben & Jerry’s, be ready to have a walk and talk with the dog, and to generally follow her lead. My kiddo has been hearing me preach for years that college is a lottery even of the well-qualified, but that won’t lessen the sting, especially when you may know peers who seemingly win the lottery. It’s hard watching this year’s seniors. I feel like just taking the parents for a therapy beer sometimes.

      1. They can always opt out of the Ivy/elite college rat race, you know. My straight-A kid with an IB diploma and stratospheric SAT scores opted out because she knew she’d never get into an Ivy or a top SLAC like Williams as a generic white smart girl from a public high school in the suburbs, and she didn’t want to play the game. She is now a sophomore on a massive merit scholarship at one of Selingo’s “Dream Schools” and is having a college experience straight out of a storybook.

        1. I hear you, but it feels that the rat race has moved down to what were easy-to-get in large party schools back when I was in high school. If anything, it’s worse because you’re competing with the same 50-200 kids at your school who are applying to those same schools, so if you have a 3.658 and they have a 3.7, you already feel doomed. Maybe only 1-2 kids sincerely apply to Ivies and everyone *knows* it’s a crapshot. If 20 kids get into Chapel Hill or UVA, it stings worse when it’s not you.

          1. I think the test-optional trend makes these schools much more of a crapshoot. When I was a kid you could reliably predict your chances of acceptance to the big public schools in my home state on the basis of GPA and SAT scores, so there were few surprises. We are in VA now, and the top public schools seem unpredictable because high school grade inflation = zillions of 4.0 unweighted students, with no test scores to differentiate them. If you have extremely high test scores you can still submit them, but it’s unclear how heavily they are considered.

          2. This. I almost welcome my kids’ likely majors requiring SATs since they feel that they can work on that and it becomes less random since I feel that many people want the college experience vs engineering-accounting-nursing-whatever else requires you to submit at least a minimum score to be considered. They feel that most kids still won’t bother or will be panicking as fall-semester seniors, so they are more allowed to run their own race.

        2. But why not try? It’s not impossible for someone like her, but it is much more like a lottery between well qualified candidates.

          Idk, but I”m a big fan of not being the one to count myself out. Let someone else make that decision!

          1. This. I have a kid that will do one hail mary application to Penn (only Ivy with desired nursing major) since the odds of getting into UVA are so grim. She’s maaaaybe less fungible through a different lens? But if you don’t play the lottery, you definitely can’t win it.

          2. Yeah. Honestly I interview for my Ivy alma mater and I don’t fully buy into the idea that college admissions is so ultra competitive now. It has gotten more competitive by sheer numbers, but the % admitted can be affected by the denominator increasing with less qualified kids. The really well-qualified kids I interview still seem to have a good shot. I don’t see their stats so I can’t guess perfectly, but you get a sense during the interview process and probably a third of the (generic white or Asian suburban) kids I write really strong letters for get in. So it’s definitely not impossible. And even in the early 2000s, it took more than a 4.0 and a 1500+ SAT to get into an Ivy (except for recruited athletes and legacies).

      2. Sending good luck! It’s so hard and it feels like such a crapshoot now, even outside the Ivies. My youngest applied to 11 schools for next year, none of them Ivies, a mix of public schools and privates. She got into 9 of them with scholarship offers. The one public school that is her top choice, for which her grades and SAT are well above average, deferred her and now has her on a waitlist. Other people at her school, who rank considerably below her and with less extensive activities, got in to that school. I know she’ll be fine wherever she goes, but for her it just feels incredibly frustrating and unfair.

        1. The part that seems random isn’t–it’s admissions offices deliberately gaming their yield rates to boost their rankings. They have algorithms for predicting which students will enroll, and they aren’t going to offer admission even to a highly qualified student if they don’t think that student will accept. They will wait-list the student instead and wait for the student to show “engagement.”

          1. Yeah what the 11:40 poster describes is yield protection. It’s frustrating but isn’t new.

        2. I had a high SAT score and it was well above the average for my state flagship U to account for being an OOS girl from the northeast (so fungible, our leading export). Now, in-state kids with higher SATs are routinely deferred or rejected. It’s a sinking feeling. IDK what has changed other than that the population grew but the spots at the school didn’t keep pace (even though we are in a birth trough for high school kids, so many people have moved to this state and want to come to college from other states that it doesn’t seem to lessen the competition to get in).

          1. The population is now global not local. Our children are now in direct competition against rest of world and not getting a look in because our system here is just not good enough.

            It’s frustrating that no one in leadership is talking about the gap and how to close it.

    2. Ha I have been questioning my style since I haven’t really updated my closet since pre-COVID and was just thinking I liked this dress. I guess maybe I need more help than I realized!

      1. Don’t let the strong opinion of one poster sway you! You can’t see her, you don’t know her general taste, and you have no idea whether she has a good eye for what looks good.

        Conversely — I really like this dress!! But you also can’t see me, see my general style, or know whether I have decent taste and a good eye for what looks good! SO . . . trust your eye!

      2. Nope. You don’t have to believe me but I’m quite stylish and consider that dress classic and very cute on the right person.

      3. I actually really like it, I think it would be flattering with my larger hips and smaller waist. but I wonder if the neckline is too low.

      4. I like the dress but something about it feels dated/very 2016 to me. I maybe had one like this then.

        1. all work clothes feel dated. since no one buys work clothes the vendors haven’t updated their patterns.

      5. This dress would be a workhorse in my wardrobe.

        There are oddly strong negative opinions about shirt dresses generally from some members of the hive and I vehemently disagree with them. There are other styles that give me major ick, but that doesn’t mean the style itself is inherently bad. Just not for me.

    3. I actually like this dress and may try it (with a substituted but similar belt probably).

      Good luck to your daughter, i hope wherever she ends up is the right place for her!

    4. Sending good vibes.

      One of the things that I tell smart, upper middle class students is that they will all end up going to a very good school. (I always thought that “you can get a good education anywhere” isn’t entirely accurate.) What’s your worst case: Connecticut College? Claremont McKenna? With about four million students your age in America, there is plenty of talent at schools that aren’t Ivies.

      To parents? The advantage of going away for college is that the kids tend to come back for grad school. Many kids who stay local for college fly the nest for their next degree, and that’s the one that can anchor them somewhere else.

      1. That’s so true about going away for grad school. I stayed local for college, moved to the east coast do grad school, and have stayed for over 15 years now.

        I won’t discourage my kids from setting down somewhere besides my large east coast city. It’s so expensive, and I honestly think they would have a better standard of living in a MCOL area. In another 20 years, I don’t see they would ever be able to buy a house in our city. In my dream world, they both settle in the same MCOL area and I move there post-retirement.

      2. Depends on the kid. Mine couldn’t escape the South fast enough and plans never to return.

        1. Kids cycle around — another round of kids from the NEUS will head south for college and everyone here’s kids will flock back north.

    6. Sending good vibes! My kid is about halfway through hearing back from colleges and there have been surprises and happiness and sadness and lots of other emotions along the rollercoaster. Me, I’ve mostly been eating my feelings. I’ve also been very grumpy at the powers that be at her high school because they don’t seem to give a rat’s patootie about kids applying to college.

      FWIW, it’s gone better than I thought it would as she’s a nice CA city kid with a super-high GPA, good but not great SATs, and good but not great activities. Two UC acceptances, two UC waitlists, honors college and scholarship at big OOS school she likes, three rejections (Tufts, Stanford, and UNC), accepted at several SLACs, accepted at both Seven Sisters schools she applied to, and got into McGill. She applied to two Ivies and some other highly rejective places, so fingers crossed but she has some amazing options.

      1. I am so curious as to whether you see a difference between the Seven Sisters schools now and when you attended. I did my postbac at one and my daughter was originally interested in some of them, but when we visited both my daughter and I were very put off by the culture shift that has occurred over the past couple of decades. She decided to apply only to coed schools.

        1. The students seem more serious and career-focused than we were in the 1990s, that’s for sure. I get the impression they’ve cracked down pretty hard on parties and drinking, plus there are about six zillion advisors and support folks I don’t remember from my days.

          While it seems like there is more open support of the LGBTQIA students, the culture seems more cutesy/little girl than I remember in my time (I was a chaotic bi theater kid who was also prelaw so in a lot of classes with the normies).

          My kid is REALLY different from me, personality-wise and in terms of where she grew up. She’s self-possessed, very into STEM and a bit nerdy. Her high school is super-diverse, as is her friend group (pretty much just other nerds but from lots of different backgrounds) and she was surprised at how many white students there are at these places.

          1. Interesting–the impression I got was pretty much the opposite. The students seemed less focused on achievement and more on endless protesting and “doing the work.” Less support for the “L” in “LGBTQ” with a total focus on the “T.” As a straight white woman who wants to get an actual education so she can pursue a social justice-related career, my daughter felt actively unwanted at these schools. It was extremely off-putting.

          2. She’s looking at Smith and Wellesley, which probably (fairly or unfairly) have the rep of being more conservative than Vassar or Mt. Holyoke.

          3. Ah. My daughter visited Mt. Holyoke and Bryn Mawr and didn’t get to tour Smith or Wellesley.

      2. It sounds like she’s done really well! I hope she will have a great experience wherever she ends up going.

        1. Thank you! And that’s what I want, a good experience, not just a name for a Christmas card letter or bragging rights.

  7. Help me plan a trip to Hawaii. 7-10 days. Where should we go? Where should we stay? For how long??
    Coming from the east coast and have never been. Travelling with 10 and 9 year old kids who are pretty good travelers. Budget isn’t unlimited but want to have a nice experience and understand it won’t be cheap.

    1. Oh and what is the best time of year to go? Does it matter? We are trying to be better about planning ahead so flexible-ish on timing. Will have all the regular school periods to play around with – summer vacation, next spring break, xmas recess.

      1. Longer comment in mod. Winter is going to be most expensive. I think summer would be a good time if you are looking to spend a full 10 days on the islands. I would then account for a couple of days of travel days around that.

        1. I prefer summer – winter can get cold and it’s the most expensive time to go and packed.

    3. What draws you there? A mostly-adventurous type of trip?

      I ask because if it’s mostly beaches with a side of hiking… you can do that in the Caribbean too for a lot less jet lag.

      1. Honestly, my kids are obsessed with it based on some movies/books they like and they’ve been asking for this trip for a while so we figured we would try planning this and see if timing works us for us to make a nice trip out of it. I am not normally a beach vacation type so hiking, volcanoes, etc. would be good.

        1. If they’re interested in movies, Kualoa Ranch’s tours are high quality. Definitely recommend.

    4. I like the site revealedtravelguides dot com. I have used their books in the past for Hawaii travel.

      Initially I would suggest a few days in Oahu and then Maui. On Oahu, You could check out Waikiki, Diamond Head and the Pearl Harbor memorial. Possibly also check out the north shore.

      In Maui, there is the Road to Hana, Haleakala crater, Iao Valley park and tons of beaches. Kaanapali is pretty family friendly.

    5. Big Island. Stay at the Mauna Lani (or if budget is $$$$, Rosewood Kona Village… or split time between the two).

      So much to do on Big Island if you like to be active. Snorkeling. Stargazing at the observatory (bring winter gear as it gets cold at the high elevation), visit waterfalls and botanical gardens, spend a day at Volcanoes National Park (recommend staying in Hilo or nearby overnight as it is a long drive for a day trip from the Kohala Coast). We’ve also done a vanilla farm tour, which was great.

      If you do stay at the Mauna Lani, highly recommend doing the morning canoe excursion. It is super early but one of our most memorable experiences paddling out on calm morning waters.

    6. For me the beauty of a Hawaiian vacation is not having to plan beyond picking a resort, getting airline tickets and a rental car. We always just play by ear once we’re there and pack shoes and shorts and some layers in case we decide to leave the beach and do something sportier like hike. But I find it heavenly to park at the pool all day, go to town for dinner or maybe on a rainy day. My favorite resort is the Ritz on Maui (but caveat haven’t been since the fires) followed closely by the Grand Hyatt on Kauai.

    7. We went to Maui for 10 days over Christmas several years ago, and it was great. It’s whale season then, so we got to see a lot of whales! We could also hear their song when swimming in the ocean, which was awesome. There is a little village of condos/houses in Kaanapali, we rented one through VRBO. Definitely rent a car. Kaanapali has a nice beach and lots of restaurants/shopping, but the other side of the island has more hiking and nature to see.

      1. Do NOT rent condos/homes. Please stay in a hotel, don’t make the housing crisis for locals worse.

        1. This is such a fallacy. None of these properties are ever going to be local housing, they’re vacation homes for people on the mainland. I would say stay in a resort because the amenities cannot be beat. But not for this reason.

          1. Locals are rallying against them and laws are being changed to convert them back over to real homes. Your opinion doesn’t override local activism and politics.

          2. This is an entitled and ignorant take. Local housing should not be a secondary priority behind ritzy people from Away owning vacation homes.

          5. So people should leave the place they were born and raised so rich white folks can vacation? How very colonist of you.

          6. Why do you think only white people are rich or vacation in Hawaii? Seems racist.

            And yes, “it’s mine because I was here first” is preschooler behavior. I can’t afford to live in the highly desirable city I grew up in, and that is just reality for me. I don’t expect other people to not live there because I want to. That would be selfish.

          7. Your ignorance doesn’t go away just because you don’t like that the label is true.

    8. My favorite islands are Kauai and the Big Island, and both are great with kids.

      If you do the Big Island, definitely spend at least a full day at Volcano National Park. Nothing is as cool as seeing an active volcano for 9-10 year olds. I didn’t stay at the lodge, but would like to sometime. I loved staying in Hilo because it’s less touristy than Kailua-Kona. The Pacific Tsunami Museum is fascinating and takes an hour. The green sand beach at the southern tip of the island is a little hard to get to, but amazing. Best bet is to have cash on you to pay one of the locals driving off-road to get there. My husband and I thought as New Yorkers we’d have no trouble with the walk from the end of the road to the beach, but it was hot and pretty grueling. We hitched a ride back.

      Kauai has great beaches for families, especially around Poipu. Stay at a hotel or condo right on the beach for the easiest access.

    9. Any time of year is good. The temps are pretty consistent all year. Waves are usually much bigger in winter than summer.
      Maui has the best beaches. Lahaina is being rebuilt. Kaanapali is amazingly beautiful 10/10 and not in the same area as the fire. If you stay there, go to Miss Arepa for empanadas. It’s also fun to see the aquarium and do some hiking at Haleakala. Also check out Iao Needle. The Kapalua coastal trail is lovely and easily accessible.
      Big Island has the best hiking, though you will need to do a fair bit of driving. The active volcano is awesome. Check out the stars at night, they are incredible and look totally different from the southern hemisphere (this applies to all the islands, but near Volcano it is extra cool because you are so far south and there’s no light pollution). The green sand beach is amazing, but bring lots of water, snacks, sunscreen, and good walking shoes. There are no amenities in that part of the island. The big island also has great snorkeling. The beaches are all “public” but some of the resort configurations make it hard to figure out where to park or how to get in. If you like coffee, I recommend visiting a Kona coffee farm.
      Kauai also has great beaches and hiking. It is a more “rustic” island. The beaches are smaller and hiking access can get crowded. Driving and parking can be a challenge. Some of the roads that take you to the coolest hikes are narrow and steep and windy. But worth it to see Waimea Canyon.
      I don’t stay at resorts – I need my own kitchen. But there are tons of resort options if you want that.
      Personally I do not like Waikiki and do not find Oahu that enticing. But if you go there you can do the lost tour and visit Pearl Harbor.
      The best food in Hawaii is literally poke bowls at the grocery store and fish tacos at the side of the road. Bring reef safe sunscreen.
      They have beginner surf lessons at all the islands which can be fun and exhausting. Put sunscreen on the back of your legs.
      You will love this trip. Go for as long as you can swing it. We go every year (from the west coast) and it is paradise. I literally cry when I have to leave.

    10. I’m a Maui girl. I prefer Napili Bay–it’s sleepy and gorgeous. If I had kids, I would prefer Kanaapali (Westin or Sheraton) or Wailea (multiple great hotels). Kihei is a bit more “downmarket” (e.g. normal). In Maui, I love to snorkel, walk on the shore, take helicopter rides, see whales (that’s a winter thing), go to great local restaurants (some fancy, some not), visit upcountry.

      I’ve been to Lanai a lot but it’s very much an “escape from reality” and hole up at the Four Seasons-vibe. There’s not a ton to do there, but what is there is awesome. I would not recommend Lanai for a Hawaii first-timer.

      I cosign other recs that Big Island, Oahu or Maui are what you want!

  8. How do you motivate yourself when you feel like you’re pouring from an empty cup? I’m a working mom of two elementary aged kids, and I find myself constantly feeling emotionally and physically drained. I also feel wildly underappreciated by my family. I get 7 hours of sleep, exercise several times a week, and eat relatively healthy food. Maybe it’s just a stage of life with a mix of a mid life crisis, but I need to pull myself out of it. Tips appreciated!

      1. Honestly? Not a whole lot. I like to read romance novels and travel, but the former happens much more frequently than the latter.

        1. What did you like to do for fun as a kid? Crafts, ice skating? What could you try again now?

    2. + 1 to what do you do for fun and how often do you get together with friends? Do you and your spouse have date nights?

      If you’re feeling under appreciated by your family, can you offload some physical and mental labor on to them?

      Do you need more than 7 hours of sleep?

    3. Right there with you! Except I only exercise on Sundays :( It’s hard! Very tempted to quit working as I feel like my job is the most demanding of my time with the least reward right now

    4. Fundamentally, you *can’t* pour from an empty cup forever – this isn’t a motivation issue. But imo the big buckets to think about changing are:
      – Balance of responsibility with partner/the kids’ other parent if that’s in the picture
      – Ruthless prioritization. What’s really truly important to you and your family; not just “seems like the thing to do”
      – What *fills* your cup? The things you mentioned like food/sleep/exercise are pre reqs but not actually speaking to your soul – YOU matter as an individual as well, and YOU deserve time and space to nourish that part of you that’s an individual. Choose something (quarterly getaway; book club; uninterrupted silent reading time; your meetup with your sister; whatever it is) and tell your family it’s non negotiable
      – Bringing in more help/outsourcing
      – Addressing the “constantly feeling underappreciated”. Elementary school aged kids are old enough to be coached around things like saying “thank you!” to whoever cooked dinner, etc (of course, they’re also young enough they’re going to forget/need lots of reminders/aren’t actually going to be grateful for many of the less obvious things parents do for them! But perhaps there’s some room to start here)

    5. Also dealing with this. I don’t have any magic solutions but when I really start to brush up against my breaking point, I leave. I tell DH that he’s on for the evening and I go out by myself. Sometimes I just randomly wander the aisles at a store, sometimes I go to a movie solo, sometimes I meet a friend. But I leave before dinner and come back after bedtime. Is it the most mature? Probably not. But sometimes I also feel like everyone needs to be reminded that things won’t fall apart if I’m not there, and physically leaving the space helps me reset.

    6. Solidarity. A week or so ago I came home and immediately started making dinner. Spouse was working on either work or some other house thing. The kids started clamoring for me to do other things for them (like making a snack). I glared at them and said “Do you see that I just came home from work and immediately started working on dinner?” They felt bad (a win unto itself) and departed the kitchen.

      Do you have a partner? Where is that partner in all this? I called my whole family into the dining room a few months ago to tell them how I felt unappreciated because I’d spent all of Sunday multiple Sundays in a row cleaning up the house, and then listened to complaints about the dinner I made. My husband apologized (the kids did not). We gave the kids new chores. Spouse took over some of the things I was doing every Sunday. My older one started running around yelling “Executive function!” and doing house things. One Friday he folded the family’s outstanding clean laundry.

    7. Take a break! I travel solo for a weekend from time to time to visit out of state friends, and I take an annual trip to an all inclusive resort each winter. My husband also takes solo trips.

      It feels great to just take care of myself, see old friends, eat great food, etc. I feel refreshed and I’m happy to see my family when I get back.

    8. You know yourself, but for me 7 hours of sleep is absolutely not enough if I’m going to feel energetic and intelligent. So I would try to sleep more. My other suggestion would be to inject something new or novel into your life. Swap out your typical exercise for something else, change up your commute, take the kids camping for a weekend, just something that seems small but changes up your routine. You’ve got to be your own zookeeper and put some enrichment in the enclosure or you’ll get depressed.

    9. This all sounds so woo and cliche, but it really is what works for me.

      Really staying in the present moment. If I can’t, it’s a good sign my anxiety isn’t well controlled. Over different points of my life therapy and/or Lexapro have helped.

      Really paying attention to what’s rejuvenating for me. Being alone, reading, walks, meditation are all on my list. Screens and people are not. A movie night with my best friend is super fun but doesn’t actually fill my cup.

      Acknowledging that I do naturally have cycles of higher energy and lower energy and accepting them. Sometimes Orange Theory is my favorite work out, sometimes it’s yoga. Right now I’ve really been called to cuddle up indoors, even though it’s beautiful outside and I’m normally very outdoorsy. But, I’m listening to that.

    10. More sleep might be a solution. 7 hours is nowhere near enough for me. I need 8 minimum and 8.5-9 is better.

    11. Zooming in on the 7 hours a night, is that 7 hours spent in bed or fully asleep? I wear a fitness tracker watch, and I notice that most nights I have ~1 hour awake time. Last night for example I did a complete reset, went to bed at 9:45 and woke up at my usual 6:30, but I ended up with 7.5 hours of actual sleep and feel very refreshed and energetic today after a tiring last few days. I also do one day a week of me-night where I do a relaxing activity for me and the dinner etc. is managed by DH and kids. But sleep is the #1 thing that has the power to turbocharge my day, or ruin it.

  9. Posted late afternoon yesterday so here goes with the hope for more inputs:

    Help me get dressed for a networking/awards event, please!

    I’m going to attend a luncheon of a professional women’s organization in my industry, where some of my company’s female leaders, along with others from other companies, will be honored with an award. I get to attend as a representative (volunteer) for one of the company’s inclusion groups who interfaces closely with this professional organization. This event is in April in San Diego, but participants come from all corners of the US and even international. This is a large event with several hundreds of people attending.

    I have checked pictures of previous events for the dress code, and the pics show anything from colored suits, dark suits, dress/blazer combo, silk dresses… I’d say the outfits are leaning into color and interesting shapes, with senior leaders and speakers standing out more with creative dressing.

    I have the following options in my closet:
    1 – Classic shift dress in navy with a waist fold detail. I can add a navy blazer to make it a column of color.
    2 – Coral blazer in a slightly wider cut than the fitted “millennial 2010 blazer” which I could pair with navy wide leg dress pants and a white shell. This blazer is my usual go to networking blazer, because it makes people remember and find me.
    3 – Anne Klein beige linen blazer with an asymmetric origami fold detail at the collar, paired again with the navy pants. If this was in black or navy, it would be a no-brainer, but the beige linen gives me pause for some reason.

    I have heels and flats in various shapes and colors, as well as interesting jewelry that I can use to fancy it up.

    I think personally that a blazer combo with dress or pants will work well, but am unsure what’s current, as most of my wardrobe stems from pre-2020. I work from home and haven’t attended fancy events like this in a while. My dressier wardrobe are linen or crepe dresses or pants with some flowy blouse, but that’s probably too “brunch with friends” for this professional event. I usually shop at Old Navy, H&M and the like, since I’m on a budget.

    Which of the above outfits would be good to wear – and if it’s none of them, any great finds?

    1. I think any of them sound good in general. If this is a highly-photographed event, consider how they look in pictures – for me, a boxy blazer might look good IRL but not in photos.

      Beige linen doesn’t read “off” to me at all unless it’s like, a Tommy Bahama intentionally frayed casual kind of thing, which yours… isn’t.

    4. I think coral is smart to stand out. with wide leg pants this is modern enough. I would maybe do a navy or orange shell, white seems a bit dated. I think more importantly, figuring out how you want your hair (polished bun, ironed, hot brushout) might help you feel more polished.

      but don’t worry too much, style is all over the place so wear what you feel confident in

      1. This was my vote as well and I immediately thought a navy top swap out would be better as well. I don’t get the Chicos comment. I attend conferences in health tech pretty regularly (so youngish professionals in not overly formal roles) and you see a lot of all black or navy pants and tops paired with a pink or coral (or other bright) jacket.

  10. Short version:
    I am envious of my friends who are wealthier. It makes me feel like a bad person, because they have more hardship in their lives than I do.
    Longer version:
    I have friends who are much wealthier than I am. I am envious, even though none of them are flaunting money or are expecting me to spend more than I am comfortable with if we go out. I am not poor or lacking in any way.
    I do not envy that they can travel more og have nicer stuff than I can. But I am anxious about my retirement, where to live and how to cope. I do what I can og I save okay, but they do not have to have these worries, since one earns a lot of money and the other one has a trust fund.
    The thing is, I feel like a bad person. One friend has a trust fund because she lost a parent young and the other one has a lot of health problems. I would choose my own life over their life despite the money they have.
    How do I handle these feelings?
    Thanks

    1. Well, maybe go make more money while you can? Retirement concerns are real not just made up envious feelings.

      1. This really depends on whether they are legitimate or unfounded retirement concerns. And that’s hard to know without knowing OP’s goals and what she’s on track to save.

        My guess is it’s unwarranted financial anxiety. I would consider meeting with a financial advisor and counselor in specialized in financial concerns.

      2. Or alternately, make less, but seek out a local or state government job that has a pension plan?

    2. Can you separate your feelings about money from your feelings about your friends? It sounds like you have quite a bit of money anxiety, and you may need to find ways to deal with that. But when you have these feelings come up in relation to your friends, can you remind yourself that what you’re feeling isn’t actually about them?

    3. No advice but as someone who is married to a husband who has anxiety about money and feels “inadequate” in our VHCOL area, I really do think it’s good you want to work on this. It’s very, very frustrating behavior.

    4. It sounds like you’re not generally envious of your friends since you recognize you wouldn’t trade places, but it sounds like you do want a more secure retirement plan. Do you want to make any changes to your plan that would make you feel less worried?

      I’m not sure if this helps, but in reality, none of your futures is certain, and a lot of things can happen between now and then. The ancient line was that wealth can help a lot with weathering bad luck, but anyone would choose good luck over wealth if it were possible to choose. It’s not possible to choose, but it still happens all the time.

    5. I’m not sure if I have advice but I would say you’re not alone and this is such a human problem (I mean, there’s a commandment about it). From a practical standpoint, do your work to understand what you need and what is possible for you. Then lean into gratitude for what you do have (health, work life balance, family etc). Maybe also think about where you can increase your personal exposure to those that have less than you (whether that’s drastically less or even only slightly. ). Sometimes that exposure therapy helps me tone down my ‘comparing up’ tendencies. Hugs!

    6. I’d practice letting yourself feel the jealousy, recognizing it, and letting it go. Be kinder to yourself. You’re not a bad person. Jealousy is a feeling, not a behavior.

      If you’re worried about your own retirement, run the numbers on a free retirement calculator and do a reality check on whether you really need to be worried. A lot of people worry without knowing their numbers. If you are behind, there are really only 2 levers you can pull–earn more or spend less. I’m not saying it’s easy to do either one, but at least if you run the numbers, you’ll know what you need to do.

      Also, you don’t know for sure that your friends don’t have money worries–just that they act (and maybe talk) like they don’t. Medical care for chronic health issues is very expensive, and it often traps people in jobs that provide health insurance that covers the care. Your other friend’s trust fund may not be as large as you think or may not have been invested well. I’ve learned over the years that the appearance of wealth does not mean actual wealth.

    7. The antidote to envy is gratitude, and it takes some active practice. So make a habit of listing 3 things you’re grateful for in your life. Do it daily. Notice good things in your life, and make it a habit to notice them actively.

      It won’t make envy go away entirely, and you’re not a bad person for having uncomfortable feelings. But you do have to shift your focus.

    8. First as others have said – you are not alone. I found out recently that a friend’s husband sold his company for something like 100M – the details don’t matter but they are clearly in a different money stratosphere now.

      You are in a great position that you would not trade places with them – focus on what fulfills you, and what you can control. Comparison is the thief of joy. You have enough, right? Therapy is also helpful, even in just hearing from someone else that your feelings are valid but don’t let them control you.

    9. I am really overwhelmed by so many kind answers and good ideas, I will read them all carefully, thanks!!

    10. I have a friend like you and because she and I are in the same bracket, she feels comfortable talking to me about it, but let me tell you, it is so tiring. Keeping up with the Joneses is an old, tired trope, so you are definitely not alone. But man, how boring. Envy is the thief of joy is such a spot-on aphorism. She spends so much time and energy wondering about how much other people have, how to they afford that house/school/boat/vacation, etc. it is really, really boring and she seems really unhappy because of it. I feel like often I end a conversation with her knowing more about her rich friends’ lives than I do about hers! She has a beautiful life, but I’m sure she does not spend enough of her time enjoying it as she does obsessing over other people’s lives.

    11. An alternate option: if your goal is “never feel envious” that’s probably unattainable. Would it work to just take the “surf the wave” approach to these feelings: “oh, interesting, the thing I’m feeling is envy. That’s a feeling”. And work on breaking the “I feel envious therefore I’m a bad person” thought; rather than try to feel envious less?

    12. Food for thought: would you feel like a bad person for feeling jealous of friends who were wealthy and did not have hardships? Why or why not? Understanding what’s causing you to feel bad or uncomfortable might help suss out how to handle the feeling. If your bad feelings are related to your own financial insecurity, focus on that. If your bad feelings are related to jealousy, then you may need to come to grips that there will always be someone wealthier, prettier, healthier, etc. and they did nothing to deserve it and there’s no “bad” thing in their life that offsets it somehow. It’s also possible that your bad feelings are guilt for directing jealousy towards someone you consider a friend, in which case, ignore the friends’ money and hardships and focus on gratitude for them as a person who is your friend.

    13. Not exactly what you asked, but what does “wealthier” mean? Much higher net worth? fancier lifestyle? because one != the other. I would prioritize investing more and focusing on your future self. I know a lot of people who are high income, high lifestyle but are not actually all that wealthy. That only lasts so long.

    15. I feel the same way, but I remind myself I have things the wealthy friend doesn’t, just like you mentioned here, and I would never trade places. Among other things, my wealthy friend works very long late hours and is a Csuite at work, but sleep is really important to me and I would never give up 2-3 hours a night of sleep to work more and be better at my job. I am happier overall in my life than she is, and have a more balanced life.

  11. I just stepped on a scale for the first time in months after seeing some really, really unflattering photos of myself (not just one event- I was tagged in a few things in Feb and March and just looked and I do not look myself). I’ve somehow gained an extra 10% of my body weight in six months. I recently moved and quit my old gym and haven’t replaced it, and picked up a frappacino habit and apparently those changes have been brutal. I’ve never dieted before – how long in a healthy way will it take for me to lose this?

    2. I would not diet, but rather just pay more attention and reintroduce a healthy lifestyle – some type of regular exercise and not too many high calorie/ low nutrient treats. The weight should gradually come off like it gradually came on. Personally, I don’t diet, but I do weigh myself every morning to avoid what you’ve experienced. This may not be a good idea for everyone (e.g. people with a history of disordered eating), but I find it helpful.

    3. Drop the sugary coffee and try to hit 10K steps a day. That alone will start you in the right direct. More than a 1lb loss per week is often unsustainable (depending on your starting size).

    4. GLP1 is the answer my friend. It’s an effortless way to take off the extra weight and keep it off as you age. Doing otherwise is like thinking cream and not Botox is going to fix those 11s.

      1. Eh, gaining about fifteen pounds in six months is the caloric effect of a daily frappucino habit. I’m very pro-GLP-1, but I’d try modest behavior improvements before introducing a lifelong medication. Lots of insurance requires you to try diet and exercise first anyway.

        2. I think there’s so much misinformation about GLP1s which have so many positive side effects, and they’re perfect for what OP is describing. Everyone is micro dosing them and that’s how women of a certain age are looking good now and feeling good.

          2. This sounds like an ad from the 1950s for stimulants for tired housewives.

            This is also just false – it is not true that everyone is micro dosing them and lots of women “of a certain age” are simply trying to exercise and eat well, and/or they just got lucky genetics.

      2. I really disagree with that Botox analogy. I don’t have any issues with people who want to use GLP-1s, but I’ve lost 40 lbs without them (in my early 50s). Suggesting it is impossible to lose weight, particularly weight that is new (I do think that makes a difference) is just not true. The OP can choose her method, and your suggestion is appropriate, it is just the suggestion that it is the only way that I object to.

        1. It’s not the only way but it’s a heck of a lot easier and way less frustrating than any other method. It’s also almost instantly effective – 10lbs in a month is normal on it whereas that can take a year without.

          1. Like I said, no issue with the suggestion. And best of luck if this is what OP chooses.

      3. Dude, no. I am obese with a BMI of 32 – 180 and 5’4″. My doctor prescribed zepbound but the insurance company said I have to do 12 weeks of their diet coach program first. We are not all getting GLP1.

    5. If you’ve never dieted before, than it sounds like you’ve had a relatively stable weight. My weight fluctuates 10 pounds on any given week, so our experiences are different. There are lots of ways to lose weight, but if you are a small changes type of person, drop the frappacino and maybe do a whole milk latte (my understanding of the world makes full fat dairy a healthy alternative to full sugar drinks) and find a new gym.

      1. A whole milk latte is still quite a lot of calories. Why not just switch to something refreshing that isn’t caloric?

        1. I suppose this depends on what kind of treat is going to scratch the itch. Calories aren’t necessarily a problem if everything else makes sense, whereas sugar can and does increase other hunger cues.

    6. Three months ago, I was exactly where you are now. I have lost two-thirds of the 10% weight gain in those three months. The last bit is always the slowest so I expect it will take me another two or three months, and I’m fine with that. The trick for me is food tracking (I use MyFitnessPal). I also enter my weight once a week. Keeps me honest with myself and motivates me to exercise since I track exercise on the same app.

    7. I had a recent gain and wound up ~8-10lbs above where I feel and look my best. I do not weigh every day, but today I did and am halfway there (4 lbs, about 1lb per week). Focusing on improving snacks, adding veggies to meals, eating only when actually hungry, and moving every day. Good luck!!

    8. My doctor told me that losing 1-2 pounds per week is a realistic goal for people who do not have a hundred pounds to lose.

      You do not mention how old you are but I will caution that the older you are, the harder it is to lose weight. When I was in my 20s and 30s, I could just cut liquid calories and exercise more. I am in my 50s now and losing weight requires a lot more effort! (Or a GLP-1, which is what I actually did but I needed to lose more like 20% between menopause and bad Covid-era habits.)

      1. I will push back on this. If you lose 2 lbs per week, that’s a 1,000 calorie per day deficit.

        That’s painful. That’s running an extra 10 miles per day with zero extra calories.

    9. The only way I have ever lost weight is my counting calories. You won’t have to starve. It helps remind me just how many calories are in that frappacino and makes me think twice. Plus, I am fine with logging 2-3 oreos but not the whole strip. Do it for a few weeks and it will put what you are eating into perspective.

    10. I will put in a plug for Weight Watchers. I had my baby right before Covid, and that 30 lbs has was still hanging around because….life was happening. I lost about 10 lbs last January-April, and then life happened again. I restarted this January and am now down another 8 lbs.

      What I like about WW in particular is that there is always something I can eat–I don’t get trapped in that “I ate all of today’s calories already” by 4 p.m. and then just say F it. If I am hungry, I can eat fruit/veggies/eggs/chicken breast/etc. and not derail the whole day. And if I am not hungry enough to eat an apple, I have an answer about why I wanted to eat in the first place.

  12. I’m sure there’s an easy answer to this, but I’m totally drawing a blank. What would you send as a thank you gift to a family friend who hosted my teen daughter for a lovely long weekend? The hostess in question is in her early 30s, works for a tech firm in SF (in an HR/internal marketing role). She has been a wonderful mentor to my daughter and I want to show my appreciation.

    My requirements are: 1) not flowers and 2) probably not a consumable (she has some specific dietary issues/preferences).

    Other relevant information: she is a little bit woo-woo and is basically a human ray of sunshine. Help!

    1. Fancy candle; fun dishtowels; an artisanal/locally crafted decorative bowl; fancy soap + lotion.

      2. Careful with soap and lotion depending on the dietary preferences of the reciever those items can have some unexpected ingredients

    2. Is there something that your teen loves that she could gift to her as a way of sharing? Like a favorite hoodie or fun blanket or sidebody bag? Or a small package of favorite snacks? I’d personally love something from the teen that demonstrates thoughtfulness and reciprocity, even if it’s a bit juvenile!

      1. I think something the teen loves would be charming! Also, more than a gift, a heartfelt note from the teen after would be much appreciated.

  13. Piggybacking on the college question. Do any New Yorkers feel kind of resentful at the idea that so many kids are aiming to get into out of state state schools? Like the SUNYs provide a good education right? They didn’t ban women’s studies like Florida. Doesn’t it feel silly to go to another state where the in state kids pay less and had an easier time getting in? I realize not all state schools are a monolith, obviously an individual kid can want a particular out of state state school for a particular reason. Heck my husband did very well at a flagship state school. But generally it’s starting to seem like sports and weather and glamorous sororities are the deciding factor. It seems kind of misguided right? i feel like im already subsidizing the SUNY system and I can’t justify paying extra because my kid will be cold and bored in Binghamton? I’m happy to send them to a private liberal arts school, like where I went. I think there’s value in small classes and a focus on undergrads. What am I missing?

    1. What are you talking about? You pay for what you can for your college age child. We prepaid college in Florida and he got a state scholarship based on grades. If he didn’t want to go to a Florida school (before DeSantis took a sledgehammer to our universities) he could take out loans. But telling your kid you will only pay for what you value is a bit controlling.

    2. huh? Often it’s easier to get into another state’s school as an out-of-state applicant.

      ROI for college tuition is, however, a worthwhile thing to consider. My parents were willing to pay private or out-of-state tuition for highly-ranked schools. But not for schools that were on par or worse than State U, just lots more expensive.

      1. Op I didn’t know that. Thanks. My husband went to a flagship out of state and said generally the in state kids were much less accomplished and also paying less. So it seemed like a lose lose move to me. It makes more sense if you pay more but have an easier time getting in.

        1. When I was at a flagship state U it was easier to get in from out of state because the school wanted the extra tuition.

    3. I don’t think you’re missing anything! It’s just that different colleges offer different types of experiences and for whatever reason, NY has never really had a “flagship” SUNY school with a giant stadium, football team, and concentration of research facilities. The SUNY schools have a lot to offer, but if you’re looking for that specific type of college experience, they’re not going to have it.

      1. And as a parent, you’re allowed to tell your kids what you will and won’t pay for. My parents told me that they would pay for anything up to the SUNY tuition, and anything beyond that was on me. I picked a private school, got some scholarships, and took out some loans.

        1. My parents did this–they offered to pay in-state rates (which I took) or up to in-state if you wanted to go private (my sister did this, and took out loans.)

    4. You’re not missing anything. Sometimes people go for “misguided” reasons, like party culture, etc. Sometimes people go for particular strengths of programs. Sometimes people go because they are desperate to get away from their hometowns.

      Send your kid where it makes sense, but there’s no reason to parse other people’s choices.

    5. I’m from PA and I’m shocked at the amount of kids who go to SEC schools! Penn State and Pitt are as good as, if not better than, the SEC schools (except Vandy). SEC schools are certainly not worth paying out of state tuition for.

      The SUNYs don’t have the big sports culture, but PSU and Pitt do. So, the only thing SEC has over our big state schools is weather and massive Greek life culture.

      Like you, I’d be fine with paying more for a good private college – especially a smaller one if that’s what my kid would prefer. I went to a school with 5k undergrads and it was perfect sized for me. I’d also pay out of state tuition to a great university (UVA, UNC, Michigan, Cal, etc.). In fact, as someone who didn’t want a huge school I am jealous of Virginia having a good, smaller state school option (W&M).

      PSU and Pitt are pricey, and our affordable, smaller state schools are abysmal. I wouldn’t send my dog to them, let alone my child.

      When I was in high school my dad said that I’ll help pay for XYZ caliber of school, but if you don’t get into one of those it’s state school for you. I will do the same with my kids – if you can go somewhere better than PSU/Pitt I’ll pay for it, but if you can’t we’re saving money and you’re going public.

      1. In the SEUS as a college transplant who stayed, it helped immensely to have gone to school here when I was job-searching here. Had I not come for school, I would be pretty behind trying to make connections and find my initial roommates. If your kid thinks he/she wants to stay in small-town Ohio or upstate NY, it’s not the same. I knew my hometown had no future for me and looked for where I thought I’d want to be (or at least not to have all my eggs in one basket).

        1. +1. I’m a SEUS transplant who did not go to college here. I went to a well-regarded SLAC and a prestigious law school, and I found that (a) most people here don’t care, and (b) I started out very behind trying to make connections. I would have been better off getting a law degree from either the private university (which offered me a full ride) or the state flagship, but I didn’t know then that I’d want to return.

    6. It’s just the upper middle class rat race manufacturing stress and anxiety. Students at SUNY schools are doing fine.

      My parents gave me the gift of telling me up front that I could go in state and graduate with no loans, or go anywhere else my little heart desired–private, out of state, whatever–but I was making up the difference on my own. I cried real tears when it was time to face reality and give up my dream of attending Dream Expensive School, since I didn’t qualify for enough non-loan aid to make up the difference, but it was a really important life lesson. I am doing fine.

      1. Eh, I think that there is something to be said for not going to college where you are from. If you go for engineering or accounting or nursing, you will be fine anywhere. Not everyone has an equal choice in where they go to school. And even at an SEC school, those kids are doing serious work. Fooey on the haters here.

    7. No I literally do not care at all where any kids go to college except my own child. I work in higher ed and I’m not like weirdly offended when people don’t want to come to my school.

    8. You are correct this is a thing. I listened to a couple of podcasts about how kids really are making their decisions based on how fun it looks on tiktok to go to an SEC school. Link to follow, but there are loads of articles on this from the last couple of years.

      I am also in NY so can empathize with your point about subsidizing the totally reasonable SUNY system that my kids will likely get into and do fine. I know a lot of folks who went to a SUNY for free and had a good time. Personally, I left my not-great-state-schools state to be an out-of-state tuition payer elsewhere and it was really formative for me to meet people from a totally different context, have different opportunities and opened a lot of doors for me. Now, as a hiring manager, I don’t see anything out of the ordinary about an applicant from a SUNY, but I might actually ask a question to a candidate from a different school, “how did you end up in ___?” It’s not going to make or break an application, but honestly likely makes it more memorable (and possibly even gives me a positive impression that they branched out, tried something new, and maybe makes them more independent or brave? subconsciously, I mean).

      That said, I would not pay for my kids to go to an SEC for the greek life and weather. Unless there is a specialized program that they are demonstrably interested in, I’m not laying out money for that, while I would for a SLAC in NY or elsewhere.

      2. I feel that NY really missed it with not having a flagship. Other states (Penn State main campus, UConn, THE Ohio State University) just seem so different. There are so many kids. I can see why you don’t want to be so close to home with many of the same kids. If you can be by the beach for less (Coastal Carolina, ODU, USC-Beaufort), it’s hard to argue once you factor in the weather. I see parents follow their kids down in their retirement.

          1. A kid going to Coastal Carolina isn’t going to get 4 years at Penn State main campus. It will be 2 years at Penn State Altoona or whatever, which makes Coastal Carolina seem like a good option, especially since they may get some sweet merit $.

          2. Yeah, but the long term ROI of $ Coastal Carolina or $$ Penn State also has to be looked at.

    9. uh, no. if you want your kids to stay in NY for school, if that is what your budget allows for them to do without loans, then that is totally fine and great. but i dont feel resentful of others who make different choices. just like some people send their kids to private for k-12 and some don’t.

    10. I totally judge people who pay for their kids to go to the public SEC schools out of state.

      1. Why?
        A high-stat kid often can get significant scholarships bringing the total cost below State U. And if you are in PA, you get to be at the main campus all 4 years. That accounts for 3/4 of the SEC/ACC college kids I know of. And if they get into an honors college, at USC that is an amazing experience. Not all kids are on the tiktoks or doing Bama Rush. Some just don’t want to graduate up to their eyeballs in debt.

        1. I work in a high school in the northeast. The kids we are sending to SEC schools are not honors college kids or kids who have to think about debt. They are 100% going for the “college experience” (which I do think is important too). They’re mostly mediocre at best rich white boys who want football and frats and hot blondes. They were already on the path to become Tradwicks but I fear that going to a SEC school and fully drinking the kool aid will only intensify the Tradwick tendencies.

          1. 100% of my husband’s fraternity brothers from Albany turned into whatever you call the NY version of a Tradwick, so who cares?

      2. Sure, if you are also the type to send Mandy to Rush Camp to prepare her for RushTok. But that is a very non-representative slice.

      3. If they’re not going into debt and the undergrad programs are similar then who cares? My friends who went to In State U just hung out with kids from their hometown and neighboring suburbs. The campus was in a location without many cultural opportunities. College didn’t expand their worldview or help them build relationships with people from different backgrounds.

    11. There is no SUNY comparable to a true flagship state school like Berkeley, UCLA, UVA, or Michigan. My husband’s wealthy parents refused to pay for anything more than a SUNY, even though they had paid for their other kids to attend private colleges. He still resents this decision decades later.

      The SUNY schools are very parochial and the alumni network for my husband’s school is exclusively in NYC. If you want your kids to have a broader perspective on life, let them go out of state. There are some lower-ranked state schools like South Carolina where it’s very easy to get in from out of state and even mediocre students can get tuition waivers or scholarships that make the cost similar to in-state tuition. And if your kid is more academically inclined, a place like UNC or UVA is going to be a much better fit than a SUNY.

        1. Either be smart/unique/special enough to get in to a good OOS/private school or go in state.

          If you can’t get into UVA/UNC, that’s fine, but why would I pay for you to get a lesser education at Alabama?

        2. But if OP’s kids can get in to one of those schools, it would be a huge shame if she forced them to go to a SUNY.

          1. But wouldn’t a private school be better? I hate the idea of working so hard and then the governor decides your major is too dangerous to their bigoted worldview. Or your classmates are mostly less bright kids born in the right state. Or the school is the just a football team’s side gig.

          2. Private schools are $$$ though. Some private SLACs that have more generous admissions may be the answer to open up merit aid to even out the cost.

          3. If you’re middle class, as I was, a good private school is almost always cheaper than in state tuition.

    12. In the SEUS and what we hear from my stepson’s friends and parents at an SEC school is that OOS state tuition + room and board in the NEUS is so expensive that OOS cost of attendance all-in at our schools is lower or about the same.

      1. This was our experience with my California kid. The OOS tuition was more than double what I would have paid for her to go to a UC, but the cost of living and ability to get the classes she needed to graduate in four years made the difference much less than it appeared on paper based on my discussions with the parents of some of her friends. (Although this varies wildly depending on which UC you go to; Berkley, UCSD, UCSB, or UCLA are obviously much more expensive than UC Riverside or Merced.)

        But in the end, it was not about the cost for my family. I told her she could go to any non-profit school she wanted (and explained why for-profit schools are a scam). Having lived in the same city her whole life, she wanted to try living somewhere else. She fell in love with the campus and felt like she would be happy there. In the end, she had a great four years, got a solid education, and developed independence that I am not sure she would have if I been closer. For my family, the ROI calculation included her happiness. But everyone’s finances are different and people have to make the choices that make sense for them.

    13. This is funny to me because yours is actually the prevailing attitude where I live. A friend were just commiserating a few days ago about how people always question our decisions to allow our daughters to go out of state (hers to a big public school, mine to a SLAC). People think we are uppity or something. But for both of our daughters the out-of-state option was a better fit, and for mine it was slightly less expensive than the state flagship honors program.

      1. It’s not that the SEC is bad, it’s more that the SEC isn’t worth paying OOS for. There are a handful of schools I’d pay OOS tuition for (Michigan, UCLA, Berkeley, UCA, UNC, Georgia Tech, William and Mary), but otherwise just stay in state or go private.

        I also think employers outside of the southeast are not going to be impressed by most SEC schools. At least if you’re from Kansas and went to University of Kansas but applying to jobs in NYC you can explain that you stayed in state for financial reasons. A kid from Boston suburbs who went to ‘Bama doesn’t have that excuse. It looks like they couldn’t get into UMass or a better school OR that they prioritized partying in the sun.

        1. No one is paying sticker though anywhere in the SEC except Vandy. Everyone knows that. Bama publishes merit awards on their website. Most OOS there get significant merit and the COL is so low that the all-in cost can still be lower than in-state in the northeast (e.g., Rutgers, where housing is expensive). Schools don’t wind up being suitcase schools, which some kids like. Others like not having to two years at Penn State Schuylkill Haven before getting to go to the main campus. If you want to work south of DC as an adult, it helps to have something on your resume that says “I really want to leave my hometown” and if you are from Parsippany and go to Rutgers, it’s just harder. The NEUS has gotten so expensive for housing and taxes and the driving / commute times are just rotten. It’s not madness for a lot of kids opting out of that. Half of them have grandparents in Florida, so they have actually seen a bit of the country that is between here and there.

          1. Yes but a kid not getting into Main Campus at Penn State for 4 years is a very, very different kid academically than the ones we’re describing here.

        2. When you are applying for jobs after college, your potential employers aren’t gonna know where you grew up.

          1. I always look up their area code or figure out their hometown through LinkedIn when reading resumes.

          2. Until you get an interview. I have never, ever, not been asked where I come from in an interview.

    15. I went to SUNY Geneseo and loved it, great experience (including meeting my husband) ended up in DC in a big job. My parents told my siblings and I that they could pay for SUNY tuition or the equivalent, and the rest was on us. Its a good school system.

      1. I turned down a full ride at Rutgers because room + board there was > OOS tuition at the SEUS state school I went to.

    16. i believe instagram would call this a boundaries issue. you and your husband believe that binghamton is a better choice than (you didn’t say but i’m guessing) maryland and penn state because it is a comparable school and much cheaper since you are in state. conclusion: your child should go to binghamton. why you want a bunch of strangers to tell you that parents who conclude otherwise are wrong is something you should think about. for what it’s worth my college freshman got into binghamton, didn’t apply to comparable out of state schools because of what you are saying and is at a small private liberal arts school because i think he personally will be better educated there and i am fortunate to be able to afford it.

      1. Thanks. I think you and I have similar thoughts on this.

        It’s not boundaries for me as much as I’m trying to understand the thinking. Maybe I could have phrased it better but right now my thoughts are very different from the mainstream thinking: they want their kids at Florida or Ohio state and I fail to see the widespread appeal for New York kids. ( I see the specific appeal for any one kid as I said.) I’m trying to hear the counter arguments. I’m not trying to “hate.” I’m just bristling at the shifting norms and frustrated at what I saw, before I posted, as the nonsensical nature of shift. Sometimes when this happens I’ve missed a major point and with new perspective it all makes sense. While I don’t think I missed anything major, I appreciate everyone’s feedback.

        I’m not understanding the sensitivity about “sec hate” as again, sending kids to schools like that, or trying to seems like the mainstream position. I do think part of the nuance here is the asymmetry of the SUNY system. I think I’d find it all less weird if I was from another state.

    17. Honestly I only want my kids applying to our flagship State U as a safety school. I want them to want more than that.

    18. I think you’re missing the part where the child is not entitled to a no-strings-attached blank check from their parents.

    19. We live in the SEUS (I moved here after college one state over; NEUS originally). A few kids at my kids’ IB school are making their teen years miserable trying for HYP. Many others know that they can have a good teen life and try to run their own race and they may all wind up at the same SEC/ACC schools. [Or Scotland, like this week’s WSJ article focused on — St. Andrews is like the SEC but with no football and worse weather for US students these days. Yes, we read newspapers down here.] If you want to work in CLT or ATL, you won’t get paid more if you are loaded up with debt from attending an expensive college, so the math to many isn’t rightly mathing.

    20. I’m generally anti-state school because I value the diversity that happens with a broader applicant pool. That being said, I have told my kids I’ll pay for a top 50 school (liberal arts college or universities… so really top 100) or in state tuition. I also joke that if my husband’s or my alma mater ever falls out of the top 50, we’ll extend what we’re willing to pay for to that ranking (not because they should go there, but to not be hypocritical). If they want a not top 50 school and not a state school, we’ll give them the equivalent of in state tuition and it’s on them to come up with the difference.

      1. If you’re talking about the top 50, I doubt the state schools are the most diverse or have the broadest applicant pool anyway.

        1. I feel like there are different diversities. Much more SES diversity at the extremes — the full-need endowment rich schools and the first-generation state-U schools. My kid’s high school is 1/3 free/reduced lunch kids and that is one of the “better” schools in our city. A ton of languages are spoken, often by kids of immigrants. Is Colgate or Bates going to be diverse like that? NYU may be more diverse, but it’s all rich-diverse. Flagship state U may be a happy medium, since the finance bro will run into education majors and engineering students and classics majors.

      2. I went to one of the SEC state schools that is hated on in this thread, and since the university made a point of trying to match the diversity in the state at large, I was exposed to a much wider range of income/culture than I was in my wealthy white suburb.

        The idea that you wouldn’t have diversity in a state school of 30k+ students is just completely unfounded. (Like, yes, the Greek community is not diverse, but that’s only part of the university.)

        1. It really depends on the makeup of your state and your state university (racially, economically, religiously). Here, our State Us are expensive, so it’s a pretty homogenous population who attends. Plus, everyone is from this state. There’s no geographical diversity and I find limited diversity of thought and experiences. If you’re in a very red or very blue state there won’t be political diversity.

        2. I know state schools can beat wealthy white suburbs for diversity. But at least some top ranked private schools attract and fund a broader applicant pool of students than an otherwise comparable state university and end up more diverse.

          1. I went to Penn from a white, wealthy suburb. Not only was there much more racial, economic, and religious diversity at Penn than there was at my high school, there was also such a huge range in lived experience. I have a good friend from a farm in bumblef*&k North Dakota. If I had stayed in state, I would never have met someone like her because ND isn’t sending kids OOS to northeast state schools.

    21. You would rather your kid be cold and bored at a SUNY than, for possibly the same OOP cost, live it up at an SEC school where she would have to football games with people who are not as smart as her? Interesting philosophy.

      1. Interesting. Yes?
        Maybe I see big classes, an emphasis on a professional sports team and warm winter weather as almost…the opposite of my own experience? It involved wool sweaters and tiny classes in old drafty buildings and making the most of a small town. I made lifelong friends with people from far flung places, most of whom were smarter than me. My husband went to a soulless state school where no professor ever knew his name and he hasn’t talked to his college friend in years. I think you meant this as pithy but I kind of think it’s a bias that I’m willing to check. So thanks!

      2. For me the issue with the SEC is the academics and the culture/politics of those states. I won’t stop my kid from moving to Alabama, but that’s not where I want my kid spending such formative years. Obviously there are lots of liberal, well educated, curious, and caring people everywhere – I’m not trying to paint a bad picture of Alabamans! But, having lived in Alabama briefly it’s not a place I want my kid to develop their world view. I could look past it for an incredible education but the SEC isn’t providing that

        1. What does your daughter want? If she wants to take out loans to go to an out of state school, why are you being controlling?

    23. I went to a highly ranked SUNY and it sucked. The classes were fine but the ambiance was terrible and the social aspects were just so so. I am decades away from that experience but was very jealous of my husband and his siblings who all went to private schools. I realize the finances are crucially important (and I did graduate with very low debt), but I think it’s silly to rule out other schools if there are scholarships or aid available. As a NY resident, I don’t think twice about subsidizing the SUNY schools because I want our population to be educated, but as you said in your post, there is value in small classes and a focus on undergrads in some SLACs, and there is “fit” and “culture” to consider beyond cost-assuming there are similarly priced options available (which is not always the case). I didn’t want to go to a SUNY and I did not really enjoy it, but I understood that my parents could not afford anything different. If you can offer options to your child, please do!

    24. I’m having trouble following your question – you mean you think your kids are not going to want to go to a SUNY because it isn’t the University of Florida? I guess I have a different perspective. I have lived in NYC for the last 20+ years and now have a teen who may very well go to a SUNY, and I am totally fine with that. We lived in FL from when I was age 9 – 18 and I could not wait to leave the state. My older brother did end up going to UF, but nothing about that was appealing to me, at all. My brother really went there by default; he wasn’t into the party scene either. My husband is from Mississippi and taught at Mississippi State for a couple of years. He too was thrilled to leave the state. And I can’t imagine that my son will be jonesing to go to a school with a big football/party/tailgate culture either. If you live in one of those states, you get to have your tax dollars spent on athletic facilities while academics suffer. So I’m happy to subsidize SUNY and especially CUNY, which actually does change lives, with my tax dollars.

      1. Mississippi is the absolute worst state in the entire country. You can’t put it on the same level as the rest of the south.

          1. Have you been to Mississippi? Elementary school reading scores aren’t doing anything to change quality of life there, or the antebellum culture.

      2. Yes. That was my issue. The kids in my kids district want to go to Florida these days and I’m struggling to see the appeal. It’s like “we have snacks at home!” But the snacks are state colleges.

        I’m not opposed to partying per se but I’m just struggling to see the appeal of a sport unless my kid plays it. I think part of this is bias; I went to a small school. If I went to a tailgate it was to see my friends play, not to cheer on some professionals hired by the boosters. We have professional sports at home. Giant lecture halls, classes taught by other students and generally getting lost in a huge crowd never appealed to me. I’m also realizing to my horror that part of it is these kids might want to live in Florida I guess forever, which is something I didn’t know I’d need to worry about.

        I think a generation ago smart kids in my area from well to do families would have opted for a slac in New England or Pennsylvania and now they’re at Florida or Alabama and it’s something I’m trying to make sense of as I guide my own kids. I am working to check my bias; i realize it’s probably largely aesthetic. Deep down i think college should involve thick sweaters and New England winters and professors who know your name and ideas that the Republican governor might not like but can’t ban. I’m not sure that all of those ideas are inherently better than giant football games or sorority houses as big as hotels.

      3. I grew up in Florida and did not and do not like UF because of the culture. I chose FSU over UF for law school and my son went to UCF. But until the last few years, I would not try to talk my northern neice and nephew out of getting out of the cold and going to UF if they wanted to big fun college experience. Some young people thrive in the big university environment. I am just glad I don’t have a high school age child in Florida right now.

      4. At Alabama, the athletic department is its own separate corporate entity, so the university (and tax dollars) are not subsidizing it.

        If anything the university is currently being subsidized by OOS tuition.

  14. I’ve seen multiple Tory Burch shoes with gold medallions out in the wild in the last several weeks. Are they…….. back??? I know they’re in stores. I wore them so much in the mid 2010s. My flats were all worn to death so I tossed them when they became fully out of vogue but I have some wedges and heels in my closet in great condition I’ve held on to. I’m 40 and in finance that requires “elevated business casual” I suppose. I’ve specifically seen them on women of my seniority (pretty senior) and higher, but on some younger women out in the street at lunch or whatever.

    It does seem the medallions are a smidge smaller than the days of yore? Is that right or am I mis-remembering? I’m not a logo person in general (like at all) but those shoes were so darn comfy.

    1. Oh man, I loved those. If they’re back I regret giving them away in my neighborhood buy nothing group. They got picked up right away so at least there’s demand for them.

  15. What kind of daily activities during your work day are signs of a good flexible job vs. what kids of activities are signs that your employee is slacking. For example, going out to lunch, walking your dog, throwing in a load of laundry = reasonable. Going to the mall, visiting a friend in the hospital, going to the gym = unreasonable.

    I am coming from a very strict government job where we had to account for literally every minute, so I am trying to recalibrate my expectations. This is a salaried, hybrid employee, for what its worth, who was in the office yesterday but left early to do one of these activities above which surprised me. She is getting her work done, so am I off base to think this is not acceptable to just drop out in the middle of the afternoon? She was available by cell phone “if I needed her” but… just strikes me as not doing a job.

    I know what our policy says, I’m looking for a guy check about what would make you go hmmm…

    2. do you supervise this person or are they a colleague? if a colleague keep your gut and your nose out of it unless it impacts you. if you supervise her you are entitled to set standards.

    3. If the employee is getting her work done as expected and available as needed, why is there a problem? Also, if you ever expect this salaried employee to work outside standard working hours when this is necessary to get the job done, you should be very hesitant to prohibit the occasional flex in the other direction.

      1. I agree with this. Also work at a government job, and don’t think visiting a friend in the hospital is out of line at all

    4. I think you need to separate the KIND of activity from the amount of time it takes to do it. There’s no reason why it’s OK to go out to lunch and it’s not OK to spend the same amount of time going to the mall or the gym, or the hospital.

      Does your department work by a “put in this # of hours” requirement, a “keep this schedule” requirement, or a “get this amount of work done” requirement? If she’s fulfilling the requirements, whatever they are, it doesn’t matter at all whether she’s going to the mall at a time of day when you wouldn’t.

    5. It really depends on the job. Is it a billable hours position? Do people often have to work more than 40 hours a week during busy times? If neither of those things are true, it’s a work culture thing and you change judge that based on just one person.

      When I was in biglaw, I would use my slow periods to do day shopping, get pedicures or massages, go to the gym, and similar things. It never came up, but I wouldn’t have had a second thought about going to visit a friend in the hospital during the work day. But everyone knew I would always hit my hours for the year and would work nights and weekends when needed.

    6. I think it matters as to how long any of those are. Going out to lunch is at least an hour, right? If someone popped into the gym for that hour, that doesn’t really register with me. The key question is whether they are getting their work done, or if they are unavailable during times when they need to be available. Otherwise I’m of the view that we are all adults and people have different ways to accomplish what needs to get done.

    7. If she’s taking leave I’d mind my business. If not, make sure she’s accounting for the hours in other ways.

      1. Op here.

        She is not taking leave, but is also not tracking hour-by-hour. I guess I’m just trying to get a sense of what is too much flex to the point of her needing more things to do. Like I love that I can take my dog on a walk mid-afternoon or get my kids off the school bus. But those things take 20m or less, and seem less… frivolous I guess than going to mall. But as u said I am coming from an extremely strict job that I know was out of line and I want to recalibrate my expectations! But also can’t help wondering if I’m overpaying this person for what is apparently a less than full time job.

        1. Some jobs are cyclical–so there are slow periods where there’s not enough to do and very busy periods when you’re working many hours over a 40-hour week. Slow periods should be allowed some grace. Also, think about what it means that your needs aren’t frivolous but hers are–the reasons aren’t really important, and you shouldn’t be comparing your reasons to hers. I’ve had to return things to the mall, and traffic patterns make a noon return window more reasonable than a 6 p.m. return window.

          Also, you both are new. Maybe just give it a year and see how you feel, instead of micromanaging these interactions immediately. It genuinely takes time to know what’s going on.

          1. Wait, OP, you find this offensive? She signaled her availability. Please don’t be a miserable boss.

          2. It’s not that I find it offensive, it’s that I’m not sure if this falls in line with reasonable flexible work expectations. I would never leave two hours early to go to the mall/gym/visit a friend with a new baby. Two hours seems like a lot to me! But I am also coming from a. Extremely strict environment and trying to recalibrate what is “normal”. Twenty minutes here and there is very different to me than a two hour chunk at the end of the day. I’m surprised folks here think they are the same, but that’s why I’m asking!

          3. Ok, I hear you. I tend to leave 2-3 hours early when my work is done and my boss is out for the day. I either flex the time or use leave. I see no value in sitting at my desk if I’m not actively doing something.

        2. You as my manager don’t get to judge how I use my time out of the office. You as my manager get to judge if my time spent in the office is enough and if my work quality is adequate. Calling how someone uses their 20 minutes or whatever unoffensive/totally in-bounds amount of time away from their desk as “frivolous” is insanely out of touch.

          1. I mean she left at 3 to go to the mall and said her phone was on if I needed her, so… I’m not actually sure this is unoffensive and totally in-bounds. And as her manager this is literally my job.

          2. Are you new at being a supervisor? If yes, this is just part of your growing pains, and your direct report will have to deal with it. If not, you should know better than to behave this way. Your best people will leave if you don’t allow them flexibility to take care of things during slow times.

          3. Like for the rest of the day? Or for under 60 minutes? The former is a big issue. The latter, only an issue in my mind if (1) she’s already taken 60+ minutes in the day for lunch or whatever else so this time way goes beyond the unspoken “lunch hour” of personal time, and (2) if the time she was away is in the middle of an otherwise busy portion of the day and you needed her around. As others have pointed out, there’s nuance as to the appropriateness of the time if day you are away if outside of traditional lunch hours (which I would loosely categorize as 11-2). It’s a know your office and maybe 3pm just isn’t ok, in which case you have to tell her that.

            Her destination does not matter to me at all and that’s what you seem to be hung up on.

          4. It’s amazing how all of the time you spend away from your desk is understandable but the time she spends away from hers is not.

          5. yes, for the rest of the day.

            I am not comparing my time away from my desk vs. hers and finding mine reasonable because of the content of the activity, its the timing and duration. 2o minute dog walk at noon and 10 minutes at the bus stop at 3 are not the same as leaving 2 hours early in my book, but you disagree I see!

          6. Did you take a lunch? Did she skip one? Will she log back on after dinner? Will you? Does she miss deadlines? Do you? Is her work good? Is yours?

            So many variables here beyond percentage of time someone’s butt is in their chair during daylight time.

        3. “But also can’t help wondering if I’m overpaying this person for what is apparently a less than full time job.”

          Because she left early one afternoon? You’re going to assume this is some how “less than a full time job” and question her salary? Girl get a grip, you sound like a nightmare manager. You are absolutely out of line. Assuming this is a professional job where a physical body in place is not an essential job requirement, and she is getting the work done, no one else’s work was placed at risk and this isn’t an issue of chronic unavailability, what she did is fine and completely normal in most workplaces. Do you trust her to get the work done? If yes, then keep your mouth shut and fix your attitude. You will lose an employee so fast if you treat her in this condescending manner where you question whether she’s worth her salary because of this. People generally do best when they are respected and treated like autonomous adults. Good god, the more I read this the more incensed I am.

          1. Friend, I am not here reposting her biweekly timestamps obviously. This is what we call a representative example.

        4. Maybe she is logging back on to finish her work after the gym? The good part about working from home is that the job doesn’t have to be done 9-5. My husband works for a large company and if he goes out for a hair cut or takes the cat to the vet, he will be at his computer finishing his hours.

    8. The whole point of salarying an employee is that you get the benefit of them doing a scope of work, with them working more than 40 hours when the work demands and less when it doesn’t. This is only a problem if she’s hourly.

      1. Yeah, but I”ve been in salaried roles for over a decade and in practice it’s never looked like this. It’s really just “work 9-5, unless we need you to stay after 5 which you will do without compensation. If you come in after 9 or leave before 5 you need to take leave”.

        1. Op here, and me too— salaried flex only went one way, including that I had to use leave if I came in late for a doctors appointment on the SAME DAY as I stayed late for a project. It was really unfair, but In government and I suspect private practice if you are out of things to do at 3pm you better find something to do.

          1. This is a very boomer viewpoint. Most workplaces now are flexible as long as the work is getting done at a high caliber and there are no barriers to coordinating meetings.

        2. I had a job like that too, once. I quit and found a job that treated me like an adult. That’s a great way to retain mediocre talent.

          1. Right. Would life be more or less difficult if you had to replace her with someone new?

    9. My boss gave me grief for going to a 45 minute gym class down the street during the work day and I’ve never really forgiven it. We have breaks we’re entitled to and this fits within those parameters, but it “didn’t set right” which I found to be very unreasonable.

    10. it’s more aggregate amount of time and when the person is unavailable, vs. the reason. Going out to lunch for an hour = going to the gym for an hour at lunch = visiting the hospital for an hour at lunch = doing household chores for an hour at lunch = running errands for an hour at lunch.

      Disappearing for hours / being unresponsive, being hard to schedule meetings with, slow productivity are the issues.

      1. This. It’s about the time – length and time of day. The appropriateness or not of the time of day will be job specific, and will have to do with the work flow/business line needs. Those needs may be unspoken and you’d hope employee should intuitively determine that leaving from 10-11 every day isn’t a great idea because that’s usually when X happens (collaboration or whatever), but if the person is young or just out to lunch, that may need to become spoken and by you, the manager.

      3. Sure, but all of your equivalencies happen “at lunch.” Of course she can use her lunch break to do whatever she pleases. This is not a lunch break question, its a rest of the working day question. Does that change your answer?

        Truly, I am trying to understand how much people with flexible jobs are straight up not working during their workday. It’s apparently a lot more than I thought!

    11. so this is like she left early, but didnt come back? if you are both new, is there a general office culture of everyone should be there from 10-4, but some people might come early and others leave later? i also think visiting a friend in the hospital is not the same category as going to the mall. hospitals have visiting hours, some patients also are better during the day than the evening. my mom had 4 brain surgeries and spent time in a rehab center and sometimes my dad had to go to work and i am very grateful that some of her friends had bosses who let them visit hospitals during the day

      1. Thanks for sharing this about your mom. I do think one of the things I’m trying to do is shake off this hyper-productivity mindset of my old job and act like more like a human! Thanks for the reminder.

    12. I don’t particularly care what the activity is if it’s flexible by nature and the person is getting their work done. I have gone to the mall during the work day at my flexible job because it is less crowded and the time it takes to get something done is less overall. Then I can do my admin work at night when watching tv or whatever instead of running errands. Caretaking for a friend and taking care of their personal health are reasonable activities. I’ve worked in companies with office gyms that allowed an hour of time outside of lunch to work out because the idea was it saved the employer on health costs.

      I think the issues is your framing, not the activities. If they’re gone all the time and never available to work, then that is a different issue.

    13. I work in a hybrid environment. Agree with others that this really depends. A few things I’ve noticed:
      — It’s much better to have an employee over-communicate what they’re doing even if you’re like “why???” rather than hide things from you. I had a paralegal who was on modified hours due to a special needs child and always kept in touch about when she was in front of a computer v. when she was not. I worked with another paralegal who (I think) was going through a health issue but never communicated her schedule, and I never knew when she was available to do work.
      — It doesn’t bother me if someone leaves early or takes time to run an errand as long as work is getting done. What did bother me was when a paralegal needed to “go pick up a refrigerator” at 2 pm when she was working on a tight deadline.

    14. You need to set expectations about when you expect her to be generally available. I agree that mid-afternoon is among the more disruptive times to be gone as everyone has gotten through their morning to do list. With that said, I know plenty of people that come to understandings about late lunches to pick up kids or leaving at 3pm to avoid a long commute – it just takes an agreement. I wouldn’t judge visiting a friend at the hospital or a one off need to buy a dress for this weekend ASAP, but regularly being offline for a couple hours in the middle of the afternoon is probably unreasonable.

      1. Right, know your office. In my case, everything urgent happens first thing in the morning, and then people do their admin in the afternoon.

    15. Assuming company policy leaves this to supervisor discretion, I would take note of true negative impacts to work. Like other commenters I think healthier work environments allow transparent flexibility. If your employee never works a 40 hour week, I would think about increasing workload instead of focusing on visibility/butt in seat. If the timing of their absence creates issues for work getting done or quality of work is poor, I’d address those issues directly. If everyone on your team having flexibility creates coverage issues, I’d focus on resolving that. In other words, I would try to track actual issues to work product rather than worrying about the optics.

      I would only bring optics up if you think it’s harming their reputation in your org in a way you cannot provide cover for. Even then I would want to have tangible observations vs a gut feeling. I would view the manager’s role as trying to promote the culture you want across your team (which is presumably is flexibility & high quality delivery).

  16. I like this dress but i’m always hesitant to buy things that aren’t easy to layer because my office is cold. would you just wear a cardigan over this?

    1. I think I’d have to wear something over that dress at work because it’s so low cut.

    3. I do wish the v-neck wasn’t so low — it’s close to making it unwearable.

      I think you’d have to try on various toppers with it to find a neckline/shape and a cut that works with the neckline and the cut of the dress.

    4. I bought and returned this dress because it was too small in my regular size. It doesn’t have any stretch. It’s cute though.

    5. I bought and returned this dress because it was too small in my regular size. It doesn’t have any stretch. It’s cute though.

  17. Has anyone every bought a suite from Express and can comment on the quality of the fabric. Abra at Cap Hill Style mentioned one in a post the other day. The price is so good, but are they wearable, or just a waste of money and should hold out to buy a Reiss/VB one?

    3. decent in a pinch if they work for your body type, and I can see why it would look fine in a state legislature arena like Abra’s (where you’ve got a lot of people at different pay scales who need a LOT of business formal), but not what I’d pick for “I occasionally need A Power Suit for a room of executives.”

        1. Yep and was a gun lobbyist advocating for awful policy in the ruins of school shootings

        4. For years she worked as a lobbyist for the NRA. Lives in Montana. I don’t know what her political leanings are now.

          1. I follow her. She lives in Washington state. I believe she is still an R but she is a moderate R – not MAGA. She has in the last year posted thoughtful commentary about gun ownership and the horrors that have resulted from assault weapons. I think she’s matured and grown into more nuance.

        5. Because some people here still feel compelled to meaninglessly virtue signal about bloggers.

        6. On the day of the Sandy Hook shooting she posted that it was a hard day for her because she was on the receiving end of some mean emails. 20 little kids and 6 teachers were brutally murdered in school, it was one of the darkest days in the history of the US, and she centered herself and people being mean to her (because of her choice to lobby for the NRA). It was unforgivable to me. I don’t care what she’s done since then, or even if her political views have changed. She could be a card-carrying leftist campaigning in the streets for Democrats and I would never want to give her another dime (and fyi for those who don’t know, page views = money for bl0ggers, even if you don’t buy anything with their links).

      2. She has great taste, which is what matters for the purposes of a fashion blog.

    6. Cheap fabric, low quality construction, some cuts give “French maid goes to the office” vibes.

  18. I am really overwhelmed by so many kind answers and good ideas, I will read them all carefully, thanks!!

  19. I get that my life outside of work is much more important than what I do for an income. However, I’ve come to the uncomfortable realization over the past few months that my job has evolved to the point where I do very little that I actually enjoy. It wasn’t always that way. I used to lose myself in tasks, and the time passed very quickly. It’s not an issue of not having enough to do, but performing roles that I’m good at but take a lot of mental energy without giving me much in return. Other than the paycheck, of course.

    Yes, I’m having a midlife crisis. I also don’t know how to feel like myself again at work. Many of the things I used to enjoy either aren’t possible in my current role, or technology has evolved to where those things aren’t as necessary, etc. AI will likely make this worse. I feel like I need a big reinvention but have no idea where to start.

    1. While I totally agree that my outside of work life is wayyyy more important than my work life, here’s the thing: you still spend 40 hours a week at work. I don’t want to be unhappy or unfulfilled for 40 hours a week (or more – but I will never work more than 40!).

    2. No advice, but offering solidarity. I could have written this word-for-word. I’m sorry you’re also feeling this way.

      1. +1! I also realized that part of the reason that I was feeling down about work was due to the departure of colleagues and a manager that made the work less miserable. Talking to a spouse and friends is helpful, but I took for granted the ability to talk to people I trusted who understood the work and the workplace from firsthand experience and knew exactly who I was talking about when I shared stories.

    3. Not sure what you do now, but if you want a big reinvention I’d look into a “helping career”. My days can be hard, but my overall job satisfaction working directly with the public in government is really high.

      1. I got away from working directly as a “helper” because the people were so awful.

    5. I regularly reviewed job posts. It can help, because I find that my current job is better for me than most of the listings. If a role sounds intriguing or better, I consider applying.

    6. I actually disagree with your first sentence. For me what I do for work is extremely important since that is how I spend the bulk of my life.

      It is never too late to mix it up.

  20. What’s a good light weight anti frizz product? A spray? I live in a humid climate and my hair is fine/oily so anything heavier just weighs it down too much. But I’ve noticed lately my hair has lots of little hairs standing up and it looks messy.

    1. Bumble & Bumble Brilliantine. Less than a pea sized amount, rub between hands, smooth over hair. I’m from a dry climate and this is my salvation when I have to attend conferences in humid locations.

    2. I use Aveda’s control paste – just a whisper of the balm coating my fingertips – to smooth flyaways.

  21. What’s a good light weight anti frizz product? A spray? I live in a humid climate and my hair is fine/oily so anything heavier just weighs it down too much. But I’ve noticed lately my hair has lots of little hairs standing up and it looks messy.

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