Thursday’s Workwear Report: Belted Shirtdress

247 Comments

1. Great pick. Didn’t know Macy’s has Mango. The other thing I have been getting there is cosmetics. You can easily search for products that are cruelty free or silicone free.

   1. Macy’s carrying Mango is great – I need two new suits early next year, so will definitely check this out in the fall.

2. I don’t hate the look, it would be nice for church, but I would never wear something like this to the office (it feels like a costume somehow) and it’s too much fabric for actual summer event.

   1. I think this is one of those things where your frame really comes into play. I’m tall and think this would work for a more casual work day. My BFF who is petite and short waisted would look a little too fundie-chic to pull this off.

      1. totally agree! I would look like a frumpy extra from Mad Men in this, but someone with a different build would look crisp and fresh.

      2. Exactly. This would be smashing on CJ Cregg.

      3. Also tall, and I have something very similar to this that I wore frequently last summer. It worked really well for my build. I can see how it would swallow up someone more petite, though.

   2. I just bought a similar dress from Quince (Vintage Wash Tencel Button Front Dress) as an XL and hated it, the construction of the bust made it poor for plus sizes. Unfortunately, this looks very similar (but ties in the front instead of the back).

      1. I bought this dress too and had the same issue. I’m not plus size but I do have a bust and it just fit really weirdly.

         In general I think shirt dresses are fine in a non-business-formal office

   3. I know I am in the minority because I love wearing shirt dresses to the office in the summer. This one, however, has way too much polyester for me. Seems like a recipe for clammy cling and pit sweat highlights.

   4. Also take into account your office. This would be on the formal side for my office.

      I like Mango’s clothing, but I find that their dresses and tops don’t work great if you have a bust.

      1. Nuts, I was just about to comment that this waistline looks a little moveable because of the sash, so it might be forgiving for large busts — seamed waistlines are always too high for me because my chest takes up so much room. This is why I’ve nearly given up on dresses. Either the waist eats my bust or it hangs like a maternity dress.

   5. I don’t see how this is costumey; what costume? This looks like something people wear?

      I agree it’s not formal enough for my workplace but I think it’d be fine for plenty of workplaces.

      1. On a short and/or busty person it would look like a 1960s costume. On a tall, straight figure, not costumey.

         1. What? the 1960s? Crazy

            1. Yep, the mom in Leave It to Beaver would definitely wear this dress to do housework.

            2. I am currently in a play set in the ’60s and a lot of the costumes are similar to this.

            3. Yep the 60s. Agree with the June Cleaver comparison.

   6. It’s a plain shirt dress don’t be a weirdo

   7. I agree with the comment that this is more ‘weekend’ than ‘office’ but what really puts it over the edge to costumey is the suggestion to drape a sweater over the shoulders imo. I think with different styling it COULD work for SOME offices.

3. The question regarding teenage dates yesterday afternoon was so interesting to me.
   I am from Western Europe, so the teenage dating culture is a lot different than in the US, I think. My parents and the parents of my friends were much more liberal than what I’m seeing in the US.

   My girlfriends and I all had boyfriends starting at about 14/15, and it was normal to go on 1:1 dates for ice cream, movies, to the park etc. Of course, group dates or hanging out as a clique also happened plenty. I had about 4 or 5 boyfriends between 14 and 18.

   Room doors at home could be closed even with the boyfriend over, but one of my parents was usually there. That being said, smaller apartments meant limited privacy in general. Also, my family didn’t like spontaneous visitors, so hanging out with friends of either gender at home was not happening without asking my parents first. With most of my high school girlfriends, things were very similar.

   That being said, all my boyfriends respected boundaries, so the more s*xual stuff happened very gradually over time. I didn’t lose my virginity until almost 18, to a long time boyfriend that I had dated for 6 months or more before that event (and we were together for about 18 months). Birth control was readily available – I went on the pill at 16 and my parents gave me a pack of condoms at around 15/16 just to be sure. If an accident had happened, abortion services would have been somewhat readily available.

   I guess I need to do things much differently with my son once he’s a teenager, given we live in the US.

   1. Being oppressive and controlling doesn’t work, education does. There’s a reason religious and fundie folks have the highest rate of teenage pregnancy.

      1. Education plus removing the opportunity works best.

         1. And not coddling the men responsible (especially when statistically it’s a lot of the same 18+ guys especially in rural/small town, religious, and fundie circles).

         2. No preventing autonomy for young adults is not good parenting.

            1. This is a false dichotomy. I am sure there are opportunities you don’t think should be provided to young people.

            2. 13 year olds are not “young adults” by any stretch of the imagination. They are children.

            3. It is so funny the way the commentariat here on the main site believes that once a kid turns 12 they magically become a fully formed adult. Make your kid make his own medical appointments (reality: not developmentally appropriate until mid-teens, not permitted by any doctor’s office until 18). Let your teen get a job and buy their own car (reality: used cars are far more expensive than they were when we were teens, and can no longer be repaired cheaply at home). Let your 13-year-old hang out with a boy in her bedroom with the door closed–she can always get an abortion!

               That’s not how it works. Tweens and teens need scaffolding of progressively larger amounts of autonomy. It is not developmentally appropriate to expect a 13-year-old to make an informed decision about whether to have sex. That’s why we have laws about the age of consent, which developmentally should probably be a bit higher.

         3. There’s ALWAYS an opportunity

            1. So many 13 year olds are not looking for an opportunity though. There’s such a thing as falling in with the wrong crowd, peer pressure, and all other kinds of situational risk factors that aren’t universal.

            2. Exactly–13-year-old girls are generally not looking for an opportunity. Any 13-year-old girl who is looking for an opportunity likely has other issues that need treament, like problems with self-esteem, trauma, etc. 13-year-old boys may be looking for an opportunity, though, so I’m not setting my daughter up to be the target.

               Teen boys want to have sex because they are biologically wired to. They don’t have any emotional investment, and it’s not a physical invasion to them the way it is for a girl. The consequences for them are just much lower. Teen girls, on the other hand, are not out there actively seeking sex the way boys are unless they have been brainwashed by the culture to think that all the cool girls are doing it. Generally girls get talked into it because they think it’s a way to get an emotional commitment from the boy, or they are pressured into it. Girls need to be given tools to avoid that pressure, which includes keeping them out of high-risk situations. Boys’ parents should also be keeping them out of those same situations so they don’t have the opportunity to act on their baser instincts.

            3. Um… there definitively are older teen girls (I’d say 16 plus) who are genuinely, actively interested in having s*x – typically with stable boyfriends. I think you are absolutely right that lots of teen girls face pressure, but teens of both genders are biologically wired to have s*x. This idea you have that no teen girls want to have s*x unless they’re “brainwashed” is weird and kinda sexist. This sort of mindset – that men pursue s*x and that’s natural and we have to accept it as truth and place the responsibility on girls to say no is troubling and underlies lots of troubling philosophies.

            4. Parents of boys should be teaching them not to be predators, but let’s not pretend that every boy’s parents is teaching them that. The reality is that girls need to be taught to protect themselves as long as there are Brett Kavanaughs running around on the loose.

            5. I thought it was usually a subset of somewhat older boys after younger girls. A thirteen year old boy is really young! Also why would they not have an emotional investment?

               It is definitely absolutely true though that girls get pressured into reluctant, nominal consent.

      2. +1. I commented yesterday that if you ban a teenager from being alone with boys she’ll just learn she has to lie to you. My friends who made the riskiest choices (hanging out with untrustworthy guys, putting themselves in unsafe situations, gardening unprotected) were the ones with overly conservative parents.

         1. This says a lot about their relationship with their parents, but this really isn’t always how it goes either.

            1. How do you think the relationship gets that way?

            2. I guess “overly” conservative is the point of contention! But I promise a lot of people with more conservative parents felt supported in taking fewer risks.

   2. There’s a lot of variation even in the US. This all sounds pretty similar to how I grew up, except I wasn’t popular enough for boyfriends in high school so I didn’t really date until college. I think my parents probably would have wanted bedroom doors open while hanging out with a boy as a teen, especially a young teen like 13. But otherwise everything you wrote is similar to their attitiude.

   3. This was my experience for the general dating vibe as a teen in the US (late 90s) also. However, whether or not your parents were forthcoming with birth control was very family-dependent.

      1. +1 to the BC being family dependent, but I was also in a major city so Planned Parenthood was a popular option.
         From what I’m seeing with my teens, there are more group hangs (mixed gender) and less pairing off and official dating. Lower pressure, but I think some of the excitement/charm of solo dates is missing which is kind of sad. It was also a marker of seriousness to ask someone out on a one on one date – that happened more frequently in 11th/12th grade.

         1. It seems like a there is a lot less going out on dates and a lot more on-line conversation than there was when Gen X and older millennials (parents of current dating-age teens) were that age.

   4. Seconding others–my experience in the US (and that of my friends) was quite similar to this. I think there was more of a “bedroom doors open” policy than you describe, but I think of that as sort of a tradeoff since we were living in bigger houses with more spatial privacy than you describe. Also, IIRC, yesterday’s post was talking about an 8th grader, and my observation has been that there’s a big inflection point between 8th and 9th grade, at least where kids are still in middle school in 8th and have started high school in 9th. The overall tone of the responses might have been quite different had the prompt specified a kid even one year older.

      1. +1 to responses would have been different for an older kids. 13 is 7th or 8th grade. That’s awfully young for “real” dating.

   5. As the mom of a boy, you need to teach him to keep his pants zipped.

      1. What about consent and using contraception?

      2. As the mom of two boys, you need to teach him (and everyone) about consent. “Keep your pants zipped” is not actually teaching anything.

         1. I’ve shown my son the tea video on consent more times than I can count. We’re probably up for a rewatch.

         2. Thank you. This is the plan, and actually does not start at teenage age.

            There are a lot of situations where consent applies to younger kids, regardless of gender.
            If a kid wants to rough house, or give or receive a hug, we try to enforce asking for consent. My son has some very “physical” friends, and we’ve taught my son to use his words in case he does not want to be touched.

            I also ask my son whether he wants to be hugged, or whether he’d like to give me a hug. And NO is a perfectly appropriate answer.

   6. I hope boys are more respectful these days in USA.

   7. My parents were pretty chill but I had a serious relationship between ages 15-19, so I think they approached it differently than if I had been casually dating.

   8. Re. the offhanded comment about abortion availability: why do people focus on teen pregnancy as the only possible undesirable outcome of teen hanky-panky, and treat abortion as an easy solution? I am as pro-choice as they come, but I have also seen teen girls suffer emotional trauma from engaging in intimate relations even when no pregnancy results. The trauma of having to end a pregnancy would be greater. And what about disease? Intimate relations have serious repercussions far beyond pregnancy, and only an adult brain is truly equipped to handle the risk assessment involved and to deal with the emotional fallout of a poor choice.

      1. This.
         If your first experience is coercive, imagine the rest of your life. Everything in this department has such a long tail.

         I’m a doors-open sort of person, only because it sets an expectation, sort of like how I expect anything I type to be suitable to being published for attribution. I want my kid and any guest to act as if they could be subject to sudden observation and act accordingly: with kindness and mutual respect (including self-respect).

         My kids (both girls) know that needing to immediately let me know they didn’t feed the dog is their safe phrase for an immediate rescue from any situation. We do have a dog (who is actually overfed).

      2. I didn’t read the comment as «abortion is easy», but more like «I had agency and choice, even if the different types of contraception I had available should fail»

         1. Thank you, this is what I meant. I’m not at all blasé about abortion.

            We actually had a classmate who got pregnant at 15 (9th grade), and terminated the pregnancy. This was traumatic for her and I would never promote it as an easy solution to get away with risky behavior. Interestingly, that person came from a somewhat troubled family background and was involved with much older guys, not with a classmate or boy of similar age – she was probably much more vulnerable to be coerced into something than my friends and I.

      3. I don’t think people treat teen pregnancy as the only possible undesirable outcome. I do think it is, in most cases, one of the most impactful outcomes and one of the most easily avoided when teens have information, awareness, and access to birth control. And talking about teen pregnancy and birth control is essential to ensuring teens have information, awareness, and access.

         1. +1

      4. the focus on pregnancy only is becoming a problem as longer term forms of birth control are more available, people forget that there are other ‘consequences’ to unprotected s*x than just pregnancy, lots of STDs etc.

         1. Downplaying HIV is one that makes my jaw drop (yes it’s amazing that it is so much more treatable and easier to prevent! no it is not NBD now!).

            1. Yes exactly!!! Why would you want to expose yourself to a deadly virus just because it can often be controlled by taking a ton of medications for the rest of your life?

            2. The cynic in me thinks that pharmaceutical companies have an interest in the promotion of unprotected sex. Between hormonal BC (which is only protection against pregnancy and therefore not true protection) and HIV drugs, they make a ton of money off of it.

   9. Are we unable to write “sex” here?

      1. Some of us use work computers to view this site on quick breaks.

      2. Also, some posts go into long moderation queues if you use certain words.

   10. As the mom of a teen daughter, I don’t think I would trust a teen girl to be able to confidently stand up for herself until at least college, and maybe a year or two later than that for some girls. As a result, I limited opportunities for her to find herself in that situation as much as possible while she was in high school.

       I highly recommend the writings of Lisa Damour to all parents of teens. Her take on this topic focuses on teaching kids to identify and stand up for what it is they really want, and to respect others’ wishes as well. On a practical level, I just don’t think kids are developmentally capable of putting such adult thinking into practice until at least their late teens, so I focused on teaching my child these values while also protecting her until her decision-making capacity matured.

       1. I think this is definitely a “know your teen” situation. My 18yo daughter is pretty assertive, even in situations where I would have totally crumbled at her age. She has a boyfriend but it’s fairly casual, esp. during crunch times like finals where she will tell him, “hey, we aren’t going out or hanging out until X is over.” They are planning to attend different colleges and she seems 100% ok with that decision.

          We don’t have a whole lot of rules about where/when they can hang out. Generally they will be in our living room, but our house is super small and if they are in my daughter’s room, it’s not really very private because she shares a wall with her brother and we’re generally around. My parents and my high school bf’s parents had alllllll the rules about four feet on the floor, no being alone in the house together, no closed doors, etc. The result was…we got really creative and sneaked around a LOT.

   11. In the 2000s ish, my experience was that dating was moderately common, but mostly casual in high school – like asking someone to go to a dance with you (!) instead of just with-the-friendgroup, or being in a relationship for a few months. There were a few students in long term, multi year, intense relationships, and tbh that felt a little off to me even as a kid and I’m not sure I would want my highschooler in that position. But also highly regional – I had friends in college who came from highschools where half the girls were pregnant or married by graduation, and they had a pretty different experience.

       Generally, in my cultural world, the expectation was “you really aren’t ready for sex in high school”, with a “but if you are in a dangerous situation, we’ll always help you” – so parents proactively arranging birth control would have been unusual (honestly, similar vibe to underage drinking – the message was “we expect you not to do this; but if you ever need a ride home, we’re there” more than “We’re picking up a keg for you because we know you’re gonna drink and would rather you do it safely at home”.

       But all this varies a lot across the US!

       1. I think that really is the best way – strong discouragement, but a relationship where they know they can count on you to help them even if they “broke the rules” or otherwise did something you don’t approve of.

          1. This. And an explanation of exactly why you strongly discourage the behavior.

          2. I feel like there needs to be at least enough discouragement to counter balance pressures coming from elsewhere (boys, mean girls, some silly TV show, wherever).

       2. I find the parents’ providing hormonal contraception particularly problematic. Condoms are the only form of BC that also prevents STIs, and teens are not exactly in the types of relationships where STIs are not a risk. Hormonal contraception also has physical and mental health consequences for some women. Being a teen is hard enough without adding BC-induced metabolic issues and depression.

          1. The mental health side effects can be so severe; people who don’t get them have no idea. And mental health is a lot harder to manage in teens at baseline.

             1. Physical health, too. I was on BC as a teen and took antibiotics for a sinus infection. Ended up getting a yeast infection that was among the worst my doctor had seen. Then proceeded to continue getting them for years. My body is sensitive, but this pushed it over the edge.

          2. Most girls in my class, including myself, who were on hormonal birth control were on it for non-sexual reasons like heavy periods. That’s a decision made with their medical provider.

             1. And that is also problematic. Doctors’ solution for every issue in teen girls and women is to provide hormonal BC. Why isn’t there any research into better treatments?

             2. The risks of BC were weighed by the FDA against the risks of pregnancy, and that risk calculus is what makes medical providers comfortable prescribing it. If we really aren’t using it for contraception, it’s not the only option. Many medical providers don’t trust girls and want them on contraception.

             3. Exactly. I think it’s a combination of doctors’ thinking all young women are sluts and society’s wanting to make young women as available as possible to young men. A lot of the pressure to go on BC is couched as “well if you take it even though you don’t need it or want it now, then you will be protected if the opportunity arises.” It’s gross.

             4. Part of the reason is that male researchers aren’t as interested in women’s health which shifted as more women became researchers. Your personal doctor doesn’t conduct research. That’s what academic centers and research institutes like NIH do. And with limited government funded research more dollars go toward things like heart disease than women’s health.

             5. It is not inherently problematic to prescribe BC for other reasons. The failure to invest in women’s healthcare is problematic. The failure to take women’s complaints seriously is problematic. Jumping to the conclusion that BC is prescribed by default for all sorts of nefarious reasons is not logical or supported by evidence and it’s unhelpful. It’s not a nuanced take that actually addresses your fundamental complaints (which are valid) and demonizes birth control (and doctors) in an unnecessary manner. Blanket assertions without evidence phrased as questions (sealioning, actually) like “Why isn’t there research into better treatments”? are astounding to read here. This is so non-specific. Treatments for what? You don’t describe any conditions – are you actually claiming there’s no research happening into ANY reproductive health oriented complaints? You just want the reader to conclude that BC and those who promote and prescribe it are responsible deficits in women’s health care.

                Using the failure to invest in women’s healthcare, generally, to attack birth control and birth control access is extremely problematic. Maybe you don’t recognize it if you haven’t been following the right’s attacks on reproductive health for decades, but this sort of “feminist critique” on birth control has been used by the right for a long, long time as another way to attack access and as gateway to even scarier attacks on reproductive autonomy. The idea that doctors want young girls to be “available” to men is something I see repeated on right wing sites and groups and it’s a gross. You really think doctors care more about making sure young women are “available” to men more than they care about their patient’s health and wellbeing? Based on what evidence? So now women are supposed to gasp and say “oh no! birth control is a tool of the patriarchy and I’m a feminist, so I won’t use it and don’t support tools that allow us to have reproductive autonomy!” That’s what that line of “reasoning” is supposed to make the reader think, and it’s insidious. “You’ll be prepared” is just that – preparation. Same reason you would encourage someone to carry condoms. People do change their minds, they do decide to be intimate with partners. It’s not a conspiracy, it’s human nature. This sort of garbage non-reasoning has recently become more mainstream. It’s disturbing to see it here, where people are generally better critical thinkers.

             6. I know I’m not the only one who got miserable women’s healthcare from doctors, who was accused of sleeping around when I wasn’t, or shamed for not being sexually active if they believed me, who was shamed for having an issue with the same BC side effects that other women just tolerate.

                It’s okay to be pro-choice and also want better. A lot of the historical push to use BCP for everything came from predominantly male endocrinologists despite opposition from predominantly female gynecologists whose surgical approaches led to insinuations of illegal terminations, and of course insurance would far rather pay for the pill.

             7. OK, here are some of the conditions that need better treatments than BC:

                Endometriosis
                Heavy periods
                Irregular periods
                PCOS
                Migraines
                PMDD

                As for your feminism argument … treating women as nothing more than sex objects by pushing them to take BC is the opposite of feminism. True feminism is about autonomy, choice, and equality of men and women. It’s degrading and dehumanizing to have a doctor tell you that you should be on BC when you don’t want or need it. It’s inherently unequal that women bear all the physical and mental burden of preventing unwanted pregnancy by taking BC.

             8. Not a particularly well-thought out response to what I said, but okay. Let’s begin. You listed several conditions and say they need “better” treatment. Fine, sure. Your actual claim was that doctors are using BCP to treat various conditions *and that this is responsible for the apparently total absence of research into treatments.* That’s the claim you need to prove.

                “As for your feminism argument … treating women as nothing more than sex objects by pushing them to take BC is the opposite of feminism.”

                And who ever argued in favor of “pushing” someone to take BC? Are you talking about doctors encouraging a safe and highly effective method of pregnancy prevention? Why do you assume that wanting to help a patient prevent pregnancy is treating them like “nothing more than s*x objects”? That’s kind of a leap, don’t you think?

                True feminism is about autonomy, choice, and equality of men and women.

                And spreading illogical and frankly thoughtless negative insinuations about birth control like you are doing is irresponsible.

                “It’s degrading and dehumanizing to have a doctor tell you that you should be on BC when you don’t want or need it.”

                Another blanket statement. It is not degrading for a doctor to recommend a highly effective and safe method of pregnancy prevention to someone who can become pregnant. It is degrading and dehumanizing for a doctor to fail to listen to you (about any topic), to push past your boundaries (on any front), to imply that you can’t make your own decision. But that’s not specific to birth control. You are implying some kind of anti-feminist motive when at worst it’s overzealous efforts to stop unwanted pregnancy by someone who gets to see the consequences of unplanned pregnancy. You are using vague, blanket allegations of terrible doctor behavior and using it to demonize the use and availability of the product itself. Again, you’re repeating anti-feminist, alt-right arguments without even being aware. They are effective because on the surface they have the veneer of feminism.

                “It’s inherently unequal that women bear all the physical and mental burden of preventing unwanted pregnancy by taking BC.”

                What does this mean? Women do not have to take BC. No one is saying they have to.

             9. There are absolutely doctors who push BCP to patients who could be more safely treated with other meds or interventions right now based on existing research, as well as to patients who wouldn’t even mind becoming pregnant. Nobody is making them do this. Sometimes they’re not even doing a work up to diagnose the condition causing the symptoms, which then needs to be done later when we get off BCP. Sometimes when BCP causes side effects, they fail to recognize that these are side effects and prescribe additional meds to manage them (so we go from being on BCP to being on BCP plus psych meds or pain meds that we never would have needed off BCP).

                There’s a tradition of downplaying or even denying real risks and side effects to talk people into taking these meds for their own good and into staying on them when it’s not going well. Even when the research exists.

             10. Anonymous at 3:14, you are the one who is making anti-feminist arguments without being aware of it. An entire generation of women who came of age in the late ’90s and early aughts was deceived into believing that taking hormonal BC and having profligate sex was the only way to be feminist, and that anyone who challenged the motivations behind the rhetoric encouraging both of these behaviors was an anti-feminist. Think of all the college girls who ran around wearing the Playboy bunny logo, or the “feminist” professor at my university who made students watch p0rn in class. None of that was feminist in the sense of giving women choices. It was about making women think they were making their own choices while they were in fact being socialized to act for the benefit of men.

             11. Since when is there hormonal BC available for men?

             12. It’s not available because it had side effects in trials, and it was seen as a bigger problem for men to suffer side effects than for women to suffer side effects.

          3. I see the tradwife MAHA commenters are out in full force today

             1. It’s really not feminist to accept second class status in healthcare.

             2. Haha, no. I am the 11:42 commenter and I am as liberal, pro-vax, and pro-science as it gets. I even tried multiple forms of hormonal BC myself before concluding that they were all intolerable for me. I am sure that hormonal BC is tolerable for some women and helpful for some, but the gaslighting about the risks and the refusal to engage in true risk-benefit analysis for each patient has got to stop. And it does not prevent STIs including HIV, so why are we giving it to anyone who is at risk of those? Those people should be using condoms, full stop.

             3. In what world are tradwives arguing for evidence-based STI and HIV prevention?

             4. “And it does not prevent STIs including HIV, so why are we giving it to anyone who is at risk of those?”

                Because it prevents pregnancy, which is really important?!! Pills/IUDs are more effective at preventing pregnancy than condoms, full stop. They should be using condoms AS WELL for STI protection. No one is advocating for BC instead of STI protection. Maybe you’re just not paying enough attention if you actually are this confused.

             5. There is no man on earth who would agree to wear a condom if his partner were on hormonal BC. It is in fact an either/or situation.

             6. BCP has always had a lot of antichoice support (the rhetoric was that the women who are responsible and good enough to take their pills on time are covered).

             7. 2:37 – this comment makes me both angry and sad. Sad for you that you haven’t met (the many many) men who would in fact wear a condom regardless of what the BC situation was for the woman.

                Angry that you’re spouting this drivel. They wear whatever the F I tell them to wear. If they don’t it’s sexual assault.

             8. “There is no man on earth who would agree to wear a condom if his partner were on hormonal BC. It is in fact an either/or situation.”

                This is just false. And ha, imagine taking a man’s assumed preferences and accepting them as fact. So feminist! I expect better critical thinking from the women here, or maybe you all just need to date better men.

             9. Some antichoicers support BCP, but many don’t. This has been the case for YEARS. This segment is growing and getting louder and seeping into mainstream discourse. Wake up, people.

             10. The people here have gotten so bonkers, I’m not sure why I even read anymore.

             11. “There is no man on earth who would agree to wear a condom if his partner were on hormonal BC. It is in fact an either/or situation.”

                 Um, what!? I was on hormonal BC in college and always wanted guys to wear a condom for both STI protection and as backup birth control (I’m pro-choice but abortion is not something I take lightly and I really didn’t want to have to get one). Granted I didn’t have *that* many partners, so not a huge sample size, but nobody ever balked at it at all. I have several female friends who reported the same. This seems like a huge overgeneralization!

          4. I don’t think information about the risks and downsides of hormonal birth control were widely known and shared in the late 90s, at least not in my home country. Pill for preventing pregnancy with a long term boyfriend, and condoms for STD prevention in case of shorter flings, that was what we did.

             FWIW, most of our mothers were working women who started birth control pills in the 70s when they were themselves coming of age. It was just what they knew and what everybody did. I went off BC in my late twenties since I thought it might be useful to know my body better, did temp and charts for a while which for me and my spouse worked really well (we are disciplined). I am the only woman in my whole family who enters perimenopause naturally – my mother, aunt, grandmother all took the pill into their 50s.

   12. I didn’t date much in high school, but what you describe is very similar to how most people I knew dated in high school ~15 years ago.

       BC with parents’ knowledge was pretty common but not ubiquitous. Only 1 girl at my high school got pregnant and she got an abortion. Given that I didn’t know of any other teen pregnancies, BC was clearly commonly used. And our health teachers were very, very vocal about not having unprotected sex – one was like look, you’re young which means you’re fertile. If you have unprotected sex, you’re going to get pregnant. You also probably don’t understand your cycle well enough yet to do NFP, so please just use BC.

       I’d say *most* parents did not allow couples to be in the bedroom with the door closed, but honestly the idea of fooling around with family in the house is wild to me. I’m gay and wasn’t out in high school – it would have been VERY easy for me to be having s3x but why would I do that with my parents down the hall? Though, no one had to worry about pregnancy so I guess it’s lower risk.

       We had larger party coed sleepovers. Some parents (shockingly, mine) were cool with this, and some of my friends had to lie about whose house we were at.

       1. Teens can obtain condoms without parents’ consent. I wouldn’t assume every parent was handing out birth control just because kids weren’t getting pregnant.

       2. We had “abstinence-based” sex ed (sex is BAD and if you have sex you’re BAD and no one will MARRY YOU, also condoms don’t really work). Perhaps unsurprisingly we had several pregnancies.

          1. yeah same. And then if you do have sex, you’d better hang onto that guy at all costs because no one else will marry you! Great recipe for keeping girls in abusive relationships.

          2. With my girls I gave the facts and then explained that the facts all point to abstinence until a committed relationship in adulthood as the most reasonable and constructive choice. No risk of HIV or STIs, no risk of pregnancy, no risk of mismatched expectations regarding level of commitment, no regrets. I also explained that boys don’t view sex in the same way that girls do, and that many boys are predators, so it is important to avoid giving them the opportunity to pressure or take advantage of you. Then I explained that if they didn’t choose abstinence, they needed to engage in harm reduction by using condoms.

             1. Caveat that I am not a parent, and of course you know your children best.

                I was raised to think that: sex is dangerous, pregnancy is the absolute worst thing that can happen to you, boys only want one thing and you’re responsible for their desire, AIDS is everywhere, etc. This was both at home and in public school sex ed.

                In my parents’ and health teachers’ eyes, I’m a success story! I’ve slept with exactly one person and I married them (and they are the right person for me). But now that I’m almost forty … would it have been so bad? Did I miss out on fun, excitement, and the ability to know myself better? I don’t know that I’d change anything. I just wish I hadn’t been so scared of sex earlier on.

             2. What I am teaching my kids is not that sex is bad, but that it is for adults with fully formed brains in committed relationships. There are many things that are not inherently bad but are only for adults: alcohol, military service, voting, driving (the minimum age on that one should probably be higher, but that’s another discussion), practicing law, etc. I would argue that kids who are 15 or 16 are more qualified to make a decision about how to vote than to make the decision about whether to have sex. Certainly the potential personal consequences are less devastating.

             3. I am 36 and have been in a monogamous relationship with my now-husband since 2012. I also had a bunch of casual sex before meeting him. I have no regrets about the casual sex – it was a lot of fun!

   13. My 7yo got herself a “boyfriend” this school year. Her desk is next to his.

       She told me he’s her boyfriend, but that he doesn’t have a girlfriend. Mmmm kayyyy…

       I’ve been tasked with arranging a play date, which I haven’t gotten around to.

       1. My son got married on the playground around that age. I don’t think it was his idea, but he went along with it because his BFF was a girl with a huge personality and she ran that playground.

          1. lol. That’s a really cute story.

   14. In the US, there is a ton of diversity. In my experience, my white friends with liberal parents had households like yours.

       I have very religious parents, so closed door time a boyfriend in my house would be unthinkable.

       1. Religious and conservative are not synonymous, and religious and liberal are not opposites.

   15. What you are describing was pretty much the experience I had with my parents in the late 90s/early 2000s. US, but non-American parents. Parents had a regular check in of would you like to be on birth control, then when I said yes, (outwardly) reacted the same as if I said, can you please pass the veg. Doctor had a similar approach to birth control. My now-husband’s parents didn’t have an explicit open door policy but he had a VERY nosy kid sister (much more effective).

   16. I was in high school in the late 80s and early 90s and spent very little time with boys in my house at all, and never in my bedroom. I wasn’t allowed that, but also it just never really came up. Generally dating meant a boy coming to pick me up at night and going somewhere. Maybe if I had had a very long-term local boyfriend that would have been different. I don’t know. I dated 20+ boys in high school from many different schools.

   17. Gosh this thread is telling.

       The fact that no parent has yet commented a word about digital safety and risks tells me how far off your sex ed parenting is. Yikes. I’m begging you all to get with the times.

       1. The conversation is not about internet safety. But since you asked: I taught my kids that p0rn is toxic, does not depict realistic relationships, and normalizes things that are not normal. It makes boys demand the wrong things and makes girls think they must consent to bad things. In addition, it takes economic advantage of the “performers,” even if they think they are consenting participants. For the last reason alone, no one should watch it.

          I also taught them not to post anything on line or send any private messages that they wouldn’t want their grandparents to read. I frequently show them examples of people who have been harmed by leaks of content they thought was private, and by postings that are misinterpreted.

          I pick up their devices for monitoring at random intervals.

          1. Same. And I talk to kids about how to send respectful emails to teachers and volunteer supervisors, how to think about tone in communications like texts, and how to be polite when using devices.

             1. All of this, plus no on-line communication with people you do not know in real life and no on-line communication with any adult unless a parent is in the loop or it’s through the school’s official communication’s platform.

       2. So you are saying that the only possible harm is on line?

       3. Yikes!

          1. Yeah, this is some odd whataboutism.

       4. This is a great point, thank you for bringing this up.

       5. I think it’s more telling that no one has said sex is fun. I grew up in a sex positive house, went on the pill at 13, had great sex with lots of different people and didn’t emerge scarred. I have a great sex life with my husband now. All this handwringing is bananas.

          1. I mean, it’s not always fun, especially when it’s pressured or coerced. That’s part of what people are talking about!

             This is late, but Scarleteen remains a good s-x ed resource last I checked.

             1. That’s the exception though, not the rule.

             2. You sound a little sheltered… which a lot of people are arguing is not the worst thing.

          2. Of course it can be fun when practiced safely between consenting adults. We are talking about children here, though. I am shocked that anyone would think a 13-year-old has the capacity to consent to sex.

             “Sex positivity” is not neutral. It’s akin to “body positivity” in that it pushes one particular viewpoint as correct. Sex ed should be about informed decision-making and consent, not actively encouraging sex, especially among teens.

          3. WTAF. Last I checked, the age of consent in my state was 18. Your parents should have been prosecuted for trafficking.

             1. WTAF to you. I’m not this poster but I had sex at 16 in a committed high school relationship, by choice, because I wanted to. I asked for BC, my parehts set up the Dr spot, and my high school bf continued to wear condoms. I cannot believe how judgmental so many of these comments are – fully in shock and wondering h what sex must look like for many of these women now as adults.

   18. I would start by teaching your son the age of consent in your state.

       I can’t believe that a discussion board full of lawyers doesn’t remember it’s a crime to have sex with an underaged person. You are all encouraging your children to commit and/or to become victims of crimes?

4. Folks who responded to my post about burnout recently, thank you! I’m almost out of the woods, and that feeling is now carrying me through! I triaged down, got some good work news, and things are looking up! (And I wound up taking a sick day due to a migraine, which was probably my body telling me that I overdid it.)

5. My nieces are 9 and 11 (will be 3rd and 6th grade this fall). I get them a weekend every month. I am 40, single, no kids. They are starting to get bored at my house. Their parents don’t allow devices/screens. Historically we used to do science center, jump house, etc. type outings once per weekend, cook, they’d color, read, play games. I’d like to find something other than shopping, which is all the older one wants to do lately, and I need something they can do/use at my house to entertain themselves. (They are also awake a lot more hours now!) What can I buy/have around the house? Preferably something they don’t have to “play with their sister” or even me.

   1. What about craft kits or art supplies? I’m thinking bracelet making, beading, crocheting, introductory sewing, etc. If they’re not into lego kits there are fun miniatures kits to build – if you have a local hobby shop I’d stop in there. I’d also ask their parents if you can do a movie night one weekend night, you’re giving them a weekend off from parenting so it seems reasonable to ask them to allow some screens so you have a bit of downtime.

      1. +1 take them to michaels or the local equivalent on the first day and make sure they have a project.

         Set up a jigsaw puzzle or a paint by number kit in a corner.

   2. Last Thanksgiving I made refrigerator cookie dough in multiple colors. My kids and niece (7, 8, 11) shaped the cookies, we baked cookies, and we ate cookies.

      I would ask the parents about watching a movie occasionally unless I knew it was an absolute no go.

      What about a longer term project where they do a little bit each time they visit? A big puzzle? Patchwork quilt? Building something?

      1. i like the idea of a longer term project, depending on what they are into, either like a multi-step craft project, a multi-step lego building project, or science project or something. there are also a bunch of single player logic games, murdle jr. etc.

         1. At those ages I would have loved a long term project that lived at aunt’s house I could look forward to working on. As a kid and teen I did sewing, crochet, t shirt painting, stained glass at my grandparents’ and also had books that stayed there. If they are into cooking something kind of structured/ long term like working through related recipes or trying a different food region every time could be fun.

            I wasn’t sporty, but if they are or are interested that’s another possibility. We also took my boyfriend’s nephews hiking a lot when they would visit.

            If they like animals you could see if there are any volunteer opportunities to walk shelter dogs, etc. or even check out a cat cafe.

   3. Baking, craft kits, reading. For outings, try hiking or look for family-friendly one-day volunteer opportunities. Our church has several of these each year.

   4. Would the parents be opposed to a movie night? I’m pretty anti-screens, but them hanging with a fun aunt is exactly the type of setting where I’d want them to have a fun age-appropriate movie (or even TV) night together.

   5. This doesn’t help when you are sitting around the house, but I would start taking them to see the performing arts. It doesn’t have to be expensive. In our midsize city, kids are free at the symphony so you could all three go for well under $30. Universities have all sorts of free concerts and dance shows and low-cost theatre and opera productions. Community theatre tickets in our area are less than $20 for adults and cheaper for kids. Etc.

      1. My grandma took me and my sister to shows by the local university theatre department/drama club all the time!

   6. Have them each make 4-5 suggestions (with the parameters you state here, like no shopping) and then put them in a bowl. Pick something & you all have to do it.

      Other ideas: baking, scrapbooking, board/card games. You can buy a deck of cards & a few card games (Phase 10, Uno Reverse, etc.) to have on hand.

      1. We used to do this growing up, was lots of fun

   7. Make something interesting and hands-on for dinner–like assemble-your-own sushi or top-your-own pizza. Then go out to a movie (that is allowed, I assume) or maybe a kid-friendly theater show. Give them each $20 to knock themselves out on concessions.

      Paint toenails at home. Learn (with them, if necessary) to knit or crochet. When it warms up, go hiking to an interesting destination–at that age, swimming or ice cream might be necessary motivation.

   8. Go to museums or to fun art classes and stuff out of the house, then crafts and board games at the house. It’s also OK to let them be bored.

   9. With the caveat that I don’t have kids.
      I hope they’re allowed to do a movie night with you because everyone thinks that’s fun. The blogger pbfingers yesterday did a roundup of good movies for kids. She also has reviews on stuff her kids like as part of gift guides.
      For things to do alone or not with the sibling, I think that books and craft projects are probably the best options. Otherwise, most kids enjoy doing stuff in the kitchen and going places (trampoline place, pet store to see the animals, zoo, walking or scootering the neighborhood looking for a certain type of item, ice cream shop, etc.). I think that getting out of the house is a big thing for most people, including kids. The public library in my town does a lot of stuff for kids on Saturdays. I think Home Depot and Lowes offer little classes for kids to learn to build stuff on Saturdays.
      I’d be bored if I sat at someone else’s house all day without entertainment, no matter how much I liked the host!

      1. There’s certainly no requirement to sit in the house all day – of course everyone is going to be bored! There’s a whole wide world of things to do. Off the top of my head – art class, climbing gym, children’s or adult museum, find-the-best-pastry/pizza/burger in your city scavenger hunt, swimming, surfing, mountain biking, theater, opera, and so much more.

   10. You’re a good aunt and there are some good suggestions on this thread. I just wanted to say IMO the parents are being unreasonable by expecting you to take them one weekend every month and not even allowing you to watch a movie together. I understand not wanting their kids on personal devices but an occasional family movie night is really not harmful and virtually every parent I know relaxes screentime rules when they’re getting free family babysitting.

       1. i agree with this.

       2. This. Also, why are you taking the kids? Do you want to have this relationship with them or do you feel obligated?

          My younger SIL and BIL seem to believe that because we are older and our kids are teens that we and our kids have nothing better to do than to babysit for them with zero notice. We are very busy, and one of their children is very difficult. I have forbidden my teens to babysit for them after the teens admitted that they were uncomfortable and felt coerced, and my husband and I usually say no to the requests. You don’t have to watch these kids unless you want to, and you don’t have to do it so frequently or for such long periods.

          1. Clearly she wants to. Most people don’t feel coerced/victimized by this type of thing.

             1. +1. It’s nice to have nieces/nephews. We do kid exchange weekends. Sometimes our kids go to their aunts/cousin and we have a quiet weekend. Sometimes the cousin comes to us and the aunts have a quiet weekend. I love having our niece visit.

       3. Seriously, the parents are so lucky to have you. For in the house, you can get Kiwicrates, Legos, Lego stem robot building kits.

       4. This! It’s ok to watch a movie! They’re getting older, and that genie will come out of the bottle eventually

   11. How about longer artistic crafts – write and illustrate a book that you can have bound in hardcover; have them produce a puppet show or play they do with toys and you can film it on your phone; make friendship bracelets. Get a couple of big batches of used lego pieces and have them build stuff.

       For outside activities, depending on your space: fairy gardens, make a clubhouse, build a bat box (or birdhouse).

   12. Do you live in a city with good public parks that have splash pads and fancy jungle gyms? A day at the park/splash pad with a picnic was always a good time for my nieces.

       1. Splash pads are for 3-year-olds, not 11-year-olds.

       2. For an 11 year old?

   13. I would really push for movie night at a minimum and even a certain amount of screen time too. They are getting old enough. If they say no, I would be tempted to say it might be better to cut the time down to one night instead of two because the kids seem to be getting bored at your place. It is a lot to be expected to entertain them the whole time. But if you are ok with it, what about giving them outside time – can they plant a garden for you or something like that? What about volunteering together at a nursing home or animal place? Or making crafts to bring to a nursing home? Some kind of project that they can work on each weekend. Do yall have any close relatives – some kind of DIY project they can make for a grandmother or something? A scrapbook could be fun if you print out a bunch of pics beforehand. I loved spending a lot of time reading when I was a kid. What about puzzles? Good luck – you are a great aunt!

   14. I love a good outdoor day. Take them for a hike at a nearby forest preserve and ice cream after. Go camping overnight in the backyard. Is there a place to rent canoes nearby?

       Is there anything historical near you? My mom would make us read about things and then go visit.

       Would any of these Girl Scout activities be of interest? https://www.girlscouts.org/en/activity-zone/grade-levels/junior-badge-activities.html (They have a bunch by grade)

   15. Agree with all of this — crafts, baking, and movie night. Another option – go to your local library, let them check out books, and they have to return them the following month. If they get no screen time they probably go through books pretty quickly.

   16. I let my nieces have more freedom than they do at home, so I’d give them screen time, go to the movies, go shopping, do the things they want to do. You’re the aunt not the parent.

   17. Jigsaw puzzles and watercolors, but 11 year old girls are getting past the toys age. Realistically, scheduling out of the house activities for BOTH days will keep everyone happier.

       1. I really liked the community theater/concert idea a commenter above had. Sometimes the act of getting ready to go somewhere is it’s own type of excitement.

       2. Agreed. Where do you live OP? Are there mini day trip type outings you could do to a neighboring “big” city (or a neighboring small town, if you live in the city)? Hikes?

   18. What about a Top Golf or mini golf kind of outing? That sounds like a good age for it. Maybe a you-pick flower farm (or apple farm)? If you tell us more about your situation (how urban/suburban/rural you are, general part of country) we might be able to get more ideas.

       The evil sister in me would totally have some choice romance books for the 11 yo to read. If you are less evil, maybe Babysitter Club books?

   19. I’d start each visit with a trip to the local library so they have books to turn to at your house!

       I don’t think it’s reasonable for parents or babysitters to fill every waking moment of a kids day, especially these ages. I’d encourage you to be a little gentler with yourself!

       A hard puzzle that stays on a table in a corner ( puzzle tables are amazing and can live under your bed when they’re gone) could be an ongoing backup activity. Especially with good music in the background. Pick a theme weekend – Taylor swift! – and build things around that including good music costumes. Obviously the topic should be picked by the kids :)

       Shopping can be fun especially if it has a theme: hit various thrift stores to find the ugliest picture frame for under $3, for example, or use thrift store finds to build out crafts!

       I guess I’m saying a theme would be your friend here.

   20. A lot of museums have neat kids’ programming and/or free admission for kids, including ones that aren’t child-specific. Honestly, one of the nicest experiences I’ve had at a museum was a very very modern art museum that doesn’t get a whole lot of family visitors. They had free admission for the kids, a coloring sheet, and cheerfully warned us about the one room that had some not-kid-friendly content.

   21. Do you have a hobby you can share with them? My husband is giving our 8-year-old nephew tennis lessons and they both love it as a special bonding thing.

   22. I think you need an outing each day at a minimum, maybe a paid outing like jump house, science museum, once and then another free outing like a hike at a park, bike ride to a neat location, roller blading, or geocaching? See what they are interested in. Maybe you can have a goal to hike at every state park in a 1 hour driving distance (or something similar that fits your region). I also think craft kits are great!

   23. I have girls this age. Baking, serious crafting or sewing, board games (Catan, ticket to ride, monopoly), hiking trips, outings, sporty stuff (ice skate in winter, hikes/swim in the warm, shoot hoops, etc).

   24. At home:
       * I agree with all the board game/card game/craft/puzzle recommendations.
       * Escape-room-in-a-box games can also be a lot of fun.
       * Would they (and you) enjoy a karaoke machine? A living room dance party?
       * My nieces and nephews that age love MadLibs

       Outings:
       * Volunteering (regular or intermittent)
       * You could pick out a recipe together, go to the local farmer’s market to get ingredients, and cook lunch
       * Geocaching
       * Picnics
       * In a lot of places, there are free outdoor concerts in the summer
       * Do you have friends or neighbors with kids near their ages? If so, maybe joint outings or play dates
       * Rollerblading/rollerskating if you have a good, safe place to do so (and wear helmets and pads)
       * Museums, local rec centers, and community colleges will often have one-off classes

   25. My 8 year old is obsessed with her cameras (digital, so don’t know if that counts for screen time) and also an instant print camera from fiji. She also likes invention kits, pottery kits, beasds, etc. maybe take them to a crafts type store and let them pick out a new kit? Also lemonade stands or anything like that is a whole day project for them (business plan, make the signs, set up, etc.)

6. What’s your favorite kind of cutting board? I hate all of mine, which are a mix of plastic from IKEA and wood from 20+ years ago.

   1. I like Epicurean brand dishwasher-safe paper boards. I’ve had them last several years.

   2. I like the Epicurean paper composite boards

      1. This; they’re worth the expense. Mine has lasted ages, and I pop it in the dishwasher daily.

   3. A really big one, of whatever material you prefer. It makes a huge difference in how often I cut myself if there’s plenty of room (I have terrible depth perception and am pretty klutzy in general). I personally find big wood ones to be too heavy and awkward to use in my small kitchen and go for plastic, which I otherwise try to avoid, but if you have more space and are less clumsy, then that might not be an issue for you.

   4. Bamboo in various sizes from my local supermarket. They can be sanded and re-oiled. Mine are at least a decade old.

   5. The largest end grain wood cutting board I could find at tjmaxx for vegetables + a bunch of dishwashable plastic ones for meats.

   6. 2 bigggg Boos boards, and 1 plastic board that goes in the dishwasher and only gets used for raw meats, seafood, etc.

   7. We just got Epicurean ones too, they were the ones that were most recommended in a local FB thread with lots of chefs weighing in. They’re so much thinner than the plastic cutting boards we’ve had in the past, though, we keep forgetting to pull them out.

7. If you were me, where would you live? Background: I’m in Philly, am early 30s, single and dating. Monthly take home is about $4800. No debt and minimal fixed expenses. I work in the office 5 days a week, but travel a decent amount for work (and fun). Proximity to the highways/bridges is key for my hobbies. I have an active social life, which is mostly centered in Center City, but more and more of my friends are moving to South Philly (or the burbs). I also love hosting, but being in an apartment I’m very aware of keeping the volume down. Being in a walkable area with access to public transit is crucial, but both options have that. Both options also have in unit laundry, dishwashers, decent storage, and private outdoor space. Both are also between 900 and 1,000 sq ft.

   Option A: stay in my current apartment. It’s 1 BR in Washington Square. Rent is $1800 and utilities (including Wi-Fi) are a flat rate of $150. Large apartment building with secure packages and a small apartment gym. I park on-site for $350. 10 min walk to work, great access to public transit. I rent from a condo owner, owner is hands off and communicative but can be slow to get things fixed. I’ve been in Philly for 8 years and have always lived in or very close to CC. Apartment is quiet. I do like the peace of mind of being in a building/garage parking when I travel. I cannot have a pet.

   Option B: 3 BR/1.5 BA row home in South Philly. Rent is $1550, no utilities included, I’d street park here. Would be a ~30 min commute (mix of walking and transit; Theres no direct route on transit). Work would fully cover the cost of my commute. A friend currently rents here and is moving out and vouches for the landlord and management company. Landlord allows tenants to paint/make small cosmetic changes. Near buses/subway, further from regional rail. Radiator heat and window units for AC (could get expensive). Side street, quiet block but right by fun restaurants and bars. Unfinished basement for storage and home gym (I have some equipment but would get more). I certainly don’t need a 3 bed, but 2 bedrooms are small but would work for guest room, office (not that I need one now!). Pets are allowed, so I’d foster (and probably eventually adopt) a cat.

   On paper, I think it makes sense to stay put. It’s just so convenient, albeit more expensive. But, I’m starting to mentally feel like I’m outgrowing apartment life. The flexibility of a guest room, ability to get a pet, and paint would be nice. I’d love a partner and eventually kids, both places could easily accommodate a partner and even a baby in a bassinet, but the 3 BR does give more flexibility.

   1. I’d stay put. The $250 savings is eaten up by bills and the commute.

   2. In your shoes I’d go with the larger place. More space to host guests, a home gym, and a pet would be big net positives to my quality of life.

      1. It’s close, but I think I would move if I were you. As far as money goes, you are paying $2300 all in (rent, utilities, parking) at your current place. I’m not sure what utilities would be at the new spot, but it sounds like you would be around $2000 all in and probably somewhat less. It also sounds like you like the South Philly set up more.

      2. +1 It sounds like you want to move, and to get a cat! However, be sure that the street parking will work for you — I’ve had bad experiences with that.

         1. The street parking is the one thing that would give me pause. Otherwise option B all the way.

   3. As someone who lives in Philly, I say go for the rowhome. A house on a quiet street will feel much more residential and
      grown up. Having a basement for storage and the ability to get a cat (!!!!!) is life changing imo. And like you said, your friends are moving to South Philly.

   4. I’d get a roommate and move to B. On your salary that is so much going to rent. A is the nicer option, but too expensive.

      1. Sadly, thats just how it is! I think among my friends I have the most bang for my buck.

         I make about 100k, many of my friends are between 90-105k. I have a friends who pay more (1 who pays $2200 + utilities + parking, another paying $1900 + utilities. Both have smaller apartments with no outdoor space). . Or, friends pay between $1600-$1800 + utilities (so less, but not much less) but don’t have in-unit laundry or much storage. Also no outdoor space).

         1. This is incredibly depressing. It shouldn’t take a six-figure income to be able to afford to live on your own. Our economy is broken.

            1. Fundamentally, fixing this is going to take people who own houses accepting that their property values have to go down.

               Big picture, inability to fix housing is MASSIVE reason people have lost trust in democrats more broadly.

            2. But most people have equity in their homes and would not want the value to decrease. If you think that’s the winning formula for democrats, prepare to have republicans in office forever.

            3. Most people don’t have multiple homes or appreciate investors buying up homes. Democrats doing better on housing would be popular.

         2. So why not pair up with one of your friends and cut your housing costs in half? 30 years ago 100k was a good salary, but today it’s not going to go that far if you’re spending that much in rent.

   5. Is the house in East Passyunk, near all the action? If so, I would *maybe* consider it simply so you could get a dog (but if you travel a lot, I would not get a dog, unless you have local family who can take the dog while you’re away), but otherwise I would not leave Center City at your stage of life. I know people like South Philly but personally I think it’s kind of depressing. The houses are ugly, it’s not walkable to CC and honestly doesn’t feel that safe to me because it seems so dead at night. Being in CC (especially Wash West, which is where I used to live and one of my favorite neighborhoods) is so awesome in so many ways.

      In your current 1-BR setup, can you get a comfy pull-out sofa for guests?

   6. Philly person here. I’d go with option B. It sounds like you need a change, and it sounds like you can afford the 3br house (and could have a roommate if you need some cashflow).

   7. Option A.

   8. the frustration of South Philly street parking may send you running to a garage after a few months, so I wouldn’t be quick to count on $350 monthly savings from that.

      Since your friend lives there, can you get more details on average utility bills?

   9. Thanks for the input so far!

      I would not get a roommate if I moved – I don’t want or need one but also, two of the bedrooms are *small*. I’ve lived alone for 4 years now and will not be going back to non-romantic roommates.

      Agree that my current rent is expensive, but it’s a) sadly several hundred dollars below market rate for what I have and b) I’ve been here for 2 years and made it work. I have a nice pull out and an air mattress for guests. I often give them my bedroom and sleep on the couch (I wake up very early and don’t want to be “trapped” waiting for a friend to wake up).

      A 2BR in my current area would be ideal, but that’s obviously not affordable.

      1. I would weigh out the hidden costs of both.

         I have a cat (and I own a 3-br home) and you’re going to have to pay a sitter if you get a cat. You’re also going to lose an hour a day commuting which means less time for fun and hobbies. A 3-br is good for me because I wfh, but I have 1 friend who doesn’t live in my city. So my “guest room” is almost never used. I don’t think you have to wait until everything lines up in your life to get a bigger place, but also, I wouldn’t get a 3-br now for a future kid unless that’s very likely in the next year or two. You may not want to be in that 3-br then either.

      2. so as far as pros and cons of 1BR apt vs. small rowhouse and thinking about expenses you might not anticipate- rattling off some thoughts.

         -we know pretty much our whole block living in a rowhouse, or at least anyone who has a dog or gardens and so we see outside periodically. In our former condo building, we knew the doormen better than any of our neighbors.
         -flip side is that street issues become way more personal- like one neighbor who never shovels, people who are lazy about how they bag their trash and cause litter, etc.
         -when we travel, we never worried one bit about something going “wrong” in our condo (break-in or undetected leak or whatever) – that feels different when your front door just faces the street and if you have a water leak, the only one who knows it is your basement floor. (We bought an alarm system that also has sensors- another monthly fee for monitoring.)
         -depending on how much you shop online, Package Status Monitoring has a separate tab open in my brain. Video doorbell with package detection alerts was a helpful purchase since the delivery people seldom ring, ugh.
         -things that you previously had 1 of you’ll suddenly want multiples so you don’t need to run up and down 3 flights of stairs to grab whatever it is (ex, scissors), and since your front door is no longer in proximity to all your closet space, it can take awhile to figure out what’s worthy of living next to the door vs. a more inconvenient spot
         -$150 a month for all utilities including Wifi is a screaming deal. Ours usually range from $300 a month (electric + gas + water + Verizon Fios in mild months with no significant heat or AC use) to $500 a month. 1200sf house with updated HVAC and insulation.
         -Speaking of wifi, one router doesn’t cut it anymore; we needed to buy a mesh system to have reliable strong Wifi throughout our house
         -Rowhouse walls are thinner than old condo building walls. If you have noisy neighbors there is no escaping them. Thankfully ours are great.

   10. I’d look for option C- something a bit larger closer to your neighborhood.

8. Super low-stakes question: Does anyone make good calzones or stromboli, and can you point me to a recipe that works for you?

   1. I do not have a specific recipe to share, but definitely buy your dough at a pizza shop. Easy and perfect every single time!

   2. Sally’s Baking Addiction has one.

   3. Trader Joe’s fresh pizza dough is perfect for this. Take it out of the fridge and let it get to room temperature before using.

   4. Cook’s Illustrated has a great calzone. You have to pay for access (which I got recently and honestly love it), but you can usually find the recipes posted online somewhere, or get a free trial.

   5. The only calzone I ever made that wasn’t soggy on the bottom was made with a pre heated pizza stone.

9. What’s the best place to get dress pants for work that are good for a curvy figure? Ideally less than $200.

   1. Ann Taylor has a curvy fit option.

      1. +1 I’ve been happy with my Ann Taylor curvy fit pants.

   2. I’ve had good luck with Boden recently, but not sure they’ll meet the price stipulation.

   3. Banana Republic trousers work for me. Ann Taylor does not.

   4. Loft as well. I also have had luck with J Crew Factory for curvy pants. Spanx makes good dress pants too.

   5. I’ve had luck with some styles at Talbots.

10. I’m the “idk” commenter in response to the did you marry the right person thread yesterday. I just saw that someone asked what makes my husband the best I found after a ton of dating. I found it to be a really useful exercise – thank you for asking that, sometimes I need the reminder to think about the good. Maybe we can have a husband appreciation thread?

    He cooks – he’s a great cook actually, he cleans up after himself more or less, he just does stuff around the house without asking what I need, he doesn’t view himself as my helper and me as in charge of all things housing.

    He is understanding and supportive of my crazy biglaw schedule. He never makes me feel bad about working late or having to cancel things at the last minute or needing to go out of town because of work. He looks for ways to make my life easier when I’m in a crazy work time – even just making coffee or getting my breakfast ready in the morning is a huge help. He’ll ask what he can do to help too, but he doesn’t just ask, he does.

    He’s the designated person to be contacted if LO needs to be picked up from daycare because he’s sick or injured (they still call me first but they eventually call him). He will rearrange his schedule to stay home with a sick baby. He doesn’t make me feel bad when I can’t.

    He always checks with me before making scheduling commitments. He has gotten really good at using the shared calendar and he will look at it before asking me if we have a conflict.

    1. I would give a limb if someone magically made meals appear for me.

       1. The first time my husband made dinner for me, I said “I always thought it would be great if somebody magically made a meal and set it down in front of me. But it’s not like I thought it would be. It’s WAY BETTER.”

    2. He sounds really supportive of your needs! Maybe that is how he expresses love? What are the not-so-great things about him?

       For husband appreciation — my husband brought his interesting hobbies (film, travel) into my life. This was a huge priority for me after getting out of a relationship with someone who was pretty listless. Enjoying art and culture together is a wonderful thing.

       He’s also romantic and a great gift giver! As an example, he once surprised me with a private in-person shopping experience at my favorite store in NYC. I love a gift tbh, so this makes us a great match in terms of giving/receiving love.

       Oh, and he’s tall :) lol

    3. I just had a major fight with my DH yesterday, so maybe I should try this exercise too. To be completely honest, I’m devastated by the fight we had last night, almost as though I have a hangover today, which is a new experience for me. We have young child and haven’t been very kind to one another recently. So, things I appreciate about him:
       – My DH also cooks, which is a huge help to me. I’m the primary breadwinner with limited time to engage in cooking.
       – He is a truly incredible father to our child. Not a single semblance of a complaint on that front.
       – He gets along really well with my family, which is important to me.
       – He does a fair number of the chores around the house, including those I don’t enjoy doing.
       – He is generally a good planner, albeit when it comes to only small things in our life, but I value it.
       – He has a strong work ethic.
       – We’re aligned politically.
       – He is smart.

       1. I’m so sorry. If it helps, spouse and I had a series of devastating fights when we had two little kids. We were also not being very kind to each other. It’s not an easy time because both marriages and little kids require a lot of work. (We finally had one fight so bad that neither of us could sleep that night because we were so upset. We had a weepy exhausted middle of the night make up conversation in which we figured out some concrete ways we could each show our appreciation of the other.)

          1. Thank you for this message. I’m feeling especially raw today, and your kindness means a lot to me in this moment.

             1. Awww…hang in there. This internet stranger is rooting for all of you.

    4. I am here for a husband/spouse appreciation thread.

       (1) He never makes me feel bad about dropping balls when I’m depressed. (He would never mean to make me feel bad about anything, but when I’m depressed avoiding making me feel worse is a major accomplishment.) He just tells me it’s okay and helps me pick them up (or picks them up for me).
       (2) He taught the kids how to make sandwiches for their lunches and transferred the task to them. I couldn’t face the messiness of the kids’ learning curve. (How does a kid get jam on the underside of the tablecloth?!)
       (3) He grows a garden (the kind with plants!) and takes the kids out to work on the yard with him. I love that they are bonding over their shared enjoyment of this project. He surprised me with a lilac bush when we bought a house because he remembered that I liked them.
       (4) Only an issue in our first place: he killed the cockroaches.
       (5) He is supportive of my (expensive) quest to learn to play the organ.

    5. My husband is very caring, and wants me as happy or more happy than he is himself.
       He is proactive and an adult who can organize his life, and true partner.
       He loves me and accepts my quirks, like I his. He makes sure I know that he loves me.
       He is a good communicator and problem solver. He’s got a lot of interests and opinions, so it’s almost always interesting to talk to him and debate how we see the world.

    6. My favorite thing about my husband is that he is so responsive to my requests. “I want to do something this weekend, but I don’t know what.” And then he plans something. “I’m stressed out and the house is messy and I feel like I can’t relax.” And then he’ll either help me clean or he’ll do his best to be distracting and help me relax. We also balance really well – I’m more on top of money and budgeting, he’s more on top of everyone’s schedules. Our hobbies compliment each other but aren’t the same, so it provides interesting variety but it’s easy to plan things that include both interests.

    7. I’m lucky I got him. He’s smarter than me, has more patience than me, has higher emotional intelligence than me, I could go on. I’ve become a better person with him. He’s my best friend.

       1. Same :)

    8. My husband is kind, intelligent, steady, and reliable. If he says he’s going to do something, he does it. He makes me laugh. He supports me having my own independent interests, even when they’re time-consuming and expensive. He does the dishes and he fixes things. He is so, so kind to my mother, who is a lovely person but can be a lot to deal with. He gives the best hugs.

    9. Many, many things, but the biggest one is that he is one of the kindest people I’ve ever known.

       1. Getting married, so this has been top of mind:

          1. FH cooks. And enjoys cooking for others :)
          2. FH is an excellent conversationalist. He is charming, knowledgeable, and great at connecting with others.
          3. FH brings out the silly side in me and reminds me to find the joy in the mundane. FH is very tender hearted and has a beautiful, childlike appreciation for silliness.
          4. FH is principled. He stands for what he believes in, and will (respectfully) stand up for what he believes to be the right thing to do even when it may be uncomfortable to do so.

          Love him! Extremely lucky to have found him.

    10. In addition to the cooking, which is so great, the thing I appreciate most about my husband is that his superpower is the ability not to be annoyed by me. My previous husbands always made me feel like I was too big for the room, and current husband says “You just needed a bigger room!” * swoon *

    11. I love this!! Among many amazing qualities, my husband is Mr. Fix-It. The man somehow knows how to do just about anything around the house. If for some reason he can’t fix something he knows the right person to call, haha!

11. I’m having such a strange work week. Tuesday I was given a layoff notice with about 10% of our team. After getting over the feelings, I decided this is okay because this role (that I only started 3 months ago) wasn’t really for me.
    Now I’m hearing through the grapevine that I might be offered a different role, and it sounds a bit like a fixer for some interdepartmental disfunction that is slowing down the work. Since I do need a job, I will definitely consider it, although it could potentially be quite difficult. I will ask about resources and influence of this role. What else would you consider?

    1. What kind of support do you need to succeed in the role, and will you have access to it? Who will you report to and who will report to you? Is this new role a stop-gap and you’ll face a similar layoff situation in the near-future, or is this a long term solution for the enterprise?

    2. In today’s job market, I would take the new role without question and start looking externally immediately. Then 2 weeks notice if you find something better.

       1. Same.

       2. Same

       3. oh yeah. same.

       4. Yep. This is the way. Go for the sure thing right now and use it as a stepping stone. Way too many people I know from a bunch of different industries are looking right now and it’s taking a LONG time for some of them. It’s an employer’s market out there right now between a tough economy, AI hitting moer and more roles, competition from those who have had govt layoffs, high costs of supplies and logistics, etc. etc. Unless your industry is in really high demand, go to what’s fastest available (and also makes it clear it isn’t a performance cut) so you can negotiate better and have a longer runway for the longer term right thing.

       5. Yeah, like, how is this even in question?

          1. To me the question is reasonable. It sounds like a hard job for a new person in an org where resources are going to be strapped and people might be in conflict. A fixer role in that scenario can be a no win. At 3 months tenure your severance probably isn’t great but if you take the job and it’s miserable and you want to quit you get nothing. It’s reasonable to consider.

             1. And there she is. The person who cannot handle the internet.

       6. 100% this. Not really the time for questions.

    3. Since you only started this role 3 months ago, you have the advantage of both better info about the market for your job, and a head start on the search.

       Did you have other promising leads from your job search? Was it easy to get & advance in interviews?

       My default advice right now would be Take The Transfer because most industries are terrible; but if you had a really different experience in the job market just recently, and there’s sizable severance, might be worth taking?

       That said, my cautionary tale is I did this a year ago (took severance to get out of a terrible job, when an internal transfer was possible); and I regretted it. I thought I knew how bad the market was and it was much worse.

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