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I’ve owned at least five of these Halogen cardigans over the years, and they’ve been wardrobe workhorses for me. They’re soft and comfortable and wash up beautifully (although I do lay them flat to dry).
I’m particularly into this leopard print version. I would throw this over an all-black outfit (a sheath dress, or black ankle pants and a black tank) to liven things up. If leopard isn’t your thing, however this also comes in black and navy.
The sweater is $49 at Nordstrom and comes in sizes 1X–3X.
An option in regular and petite sizes is at Loft ($69.50, but be on the lookout for frequent sales).
Sales of note for 9.10.24
- Nordstrom – Summer Sale, save up to 60%
- Ann Taylor – 30% off your purchase
- Banana Republic Factory – Up to 50% off everything + extra 20% off
- Bergdorf Goodman – Save up to 40% on new markdowns
- Boden – 15% off new styles
- Eloquii – $29 and up select styles; up to 50% off everything else
- J.Crew – Up to 50% off wear-to-work styles; extra 30% off sale styles
- J.Crew Factory – 40-60% off everything; extra 60% off clearance
- Lo & Sons – Warehouse sale, up to 70% off
- M.M.LaFleur – Save 25% sitewide
- Spanx – Lots of workwear on sale, some up to 70% off
- Talbots – BOGO 50% everything, includes markdowns
- White House Black Market – 30% off new arrivals
Sales of note for 9.10.24
- Nordstrom – Summer Sale, save up to 60%
- Ann Taylor – 30% off your purchase
- Banana Republic Factory – Up to 50% off everything + extra 20% off
- Bergdorf Goodman – Save up to 40% on new markdowns
- Boden – 15% off new styles
- Eloquii – $29 and up select styles; up to 50% off everything else
- J.Crew – Up to 50% off wear-to-work styles; extra 30% off sale styles
- J.Crew Factory – 40-60% off everything; extra 60% off clearance
- Lo & Sons – Warehouse sale, up to 70% off
- M.M.LaFleur – Save 25% sitewide
- Spanx – Lots of workwear on sale, some up to 70% off
- Talbots – BOGO 50% everything, includes markdowns
- White House Black Market – 30% off new arrivals
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Anon
Help me shop. I have a “Roaring 20s” themed gala to attend sometime in the next year (once it is safe to do so). Full outfit help welcomed.
Anonymous
Would use «Some like it hot» as inspiration. :) Great outfits in many shapes and styles.
Or maybe a striped suit, wingtips and a Trilby?
Calico
I’d check out Adriana Papell dresses since I’d be more likely to wear one of those again for another function and just add long pearls and maybe a feathery hair accessory.
Anon
Yes! A lot of these dresses look 20s-ish to me, but not so 20s that you can’t wear them to a normal party.
Ribena
I went to a ‘Chicago’- themed hen party in the Beforetimes and it was a similar dress code. I found a dress with a layer of chunky black lace over a pale satin base which felt sufficiently 20s while also being easy enough to wear again – at this time of year there would normally be that kind of style leftover from New Years Eve/ party season sales. I wasn’t the most on theme but neither did I stick out!
KW
If you’re hoping to find something you could wear beyond the gala, could you use a black sheath dress, stitch some fringe onto it, add long pearls, and a headband with a feather? That was pretty much what I wore when I dressed as a flapper girl for Halloween one year as a kid.
AnonATL
This may be a loose interpretation but I love the SAHN gown from tadashi shoji.
Not too flappery but vintage enough.
Anonymous
If you are looking for something on theme without spending a ton, I’d take a look at amazon just a search for “roaring 20s dress” came up with a ton of hits that look fun- obviously, one has to be careful about materials/whether the product will look like the photo, though. VIJIV in particular has a whole bunch of dresses that would be on theme, and I believe I found that store through a previous discussion on this site.
Rainbow Hair
I guess it’s a weird confluence in my life but I’ve been to 102983428 “Roaring 20s”/”Gatsby”/”Bootleggers” themed parties in the past 6 years and I’m so grouchy about it.
That being said, in The Before Times I absolutely slayed in a genderbent 1920s suit look: an oversized (like tunic length or even short-dress length) grey men’s style button down shirt, sleeves rolled up and held in place with sleeve garters; a similarly oversized mens style vest, black, and I swapped out the black buttons for fancy silver ones; shiny black leggings and sky high black platform heels; a pinstriped fedora and my cuteAF face.
(I’m sure “genderbent” might raise some “work appropriate?!” hackles but it really was entirely appropriate and just plain fun.)
(And now I have unequivocally outed myself if anyone was there, HI!)
Senior Attorney
Amazon has a ton of 20s costumes at reasonable prices. I couldn’t resist buying this one and am waiting patiently for a reason to wear it: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07G91Y53J/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
NOLA
That’s gorgeous!
Anon
So, you can certainly go with the typical fringy, sequined “flapper” dress, or an art deco bodycon dress with metal adornments if you so choose, I won’t judge anyone for opting for either outfits, but as someone who’s attended several 20’s events in my adult life, let me give you some authenticity tips:
1) When it comes to length of your skirt or dress, knee length is good, midi length is ideal, and mini or mid-thigh is actually more of a modern interpretation of what “flappers” wore in those times. In the 20’s, anything showing your calf was risque, and showing your knees was downright scandalous.
2) When picking a silhouette, opt for either a shift dress or a drop waist; for your top, sleeveless is best. If you want something period-specific that you may or may not get to wear again, I’m a fan of Unique Vintage and Retro Stage, but you can also find something at a more modern clothing store that’ll have more subtle, 20’s inspired details without being too costumey.
3) You really can’t go wrong with lace details
4) A long, beaded necklace works really well. Doesn’t have to be pearls, in fact something glittery works better for an evening affair.
5) If you want to spend money on a niche item for this event, I recommend a beaded headband with a feather on the side. Really can’t go wrong with that. For short hair, leave it as-is or curl it, for longer hair I recommend pulling it back into a chignon.
6) Leave the boa at home; depending on the time of year, a fur or faux fur stole on your shoulders can add a touch of class
7) For shoes, I really love Oxford-style shoes, either flat or with a heel. T-strap heels are also a great choice!
Anon
I love these historical tips and would add my own. No v neckline, no cleavage. I high-ish neckline and nothing that emphasizes the bust. The style was to be flat chested so your rope of beads or pearls hung straight. Lots of women bound their breasts to get this look.
Anon
Oh good call, I didn’t even think of that detail!
I feel like this topic comes up often enough there should be a post about it. Probably should’ve had one January of last year.
Nudibranch
For ideas and really nice costuming from this era, see “Miss Fisher’s Murder Mysteries” which is/was free on Prime.
NOLA
My friends are having an outdoor twenties theme wedding at a park on 4/3/21 (so they will never forget the date…). When the bride and I talked about it at Christmas, I knew I needed to get on it, so I ordered a dress right away. It’s this dress: https://www.macys.com/shop/product/julia-jordan-sleeveless-sequin-fringe-sheath-dress?ID=7105276&CategoryID=5449
Maybe not for a gala, at that length? I would have said try SteinMart, but it appears that they have closed. My dress doesn’t have a lot of shape but it has no give at all, so I can’t gain a pound before the wedding (in 2 weeks!). It’s really pretty on!
Anonymous
Cinq à Sept Eliane Flutter Plisse at Neiman Marcus? I flagged it “for a friend.”
anon
When work is really busy, what do you do to feel like you do more than work and sleep? I’m alternating between working 15 hour days, 6 days a week and then having “light weeks” where I’m working 10-13 hour days M-F, doing some work over the weekend, and being glued to my work phone 24/7. I’ve been doing this for about a month, and it likely won’t let up until mid summer. I”m already exhausted and 100% mentally fried, but I also get crabby because it feels like all I do is work. I also feel like a terrible friend/daughter because I have way less time for family/friends than I used to. The work is meaningful, but very stressful and all-consuming. I have a low salary (but I do get overtime), but even with OT the pay isn’t really worth the hours. (yes, I’ll be looking for a new job when this ends – though this is par for the course in my field).
On weekends, it’s a rush to get everything I need to do done (single, live with roommates so can’t lean on a SO to pickup the slack), catch up on sleep, and try to relax or do something fun.
Kara
Even if you’re glued to your phone, still get out on the weekends. You can respond to phone calls from a park or even the beach. I find living my life while being on call a lot less stressful than pausing my life because I’m on call.
Plan out things to do so you don’t waste time. Decide ahead of time that you’re meeting your family for dinner or brunch and schedule other things around that.
If you can throw money at some of those chores, like ordering groceries, do it. I was just talking to friends about what we would eat during times like that – veggie burgers were a popular choice.
Make sure you go for a walk every day. Take a real lunch break – if you’re working hours like that, you can take a lunch break 100000%. And a breakfast and dinner break. I don’t want to hear excuses for why you can’t, at least for 20 minutes. Step outside at lunch.
Have something (again planned) to do after work to unwind. Puzzle, bubble bath, favorite book, whatever.
Op
On Monday I actually have 7 meetings straight from 10:30-4 with no breaks, so sadly a lunchbreak isn’t always possible
Kara
Well yes, if you don’t try to do anything about it, it won’t be possible. This board needs to learn the difference between “can’t ” and “didn’t try hard enough to get”
Anon
Going forward, you are unavailable from 12:30-1:00 or whatever time you want to block out for lunch, and don’t agree to do any meetings or calls during that time. If you don’t set your own boundaries, no one will set them for you. The company is going to want to wring every last minute of work out of you, regardless of the impact on your health and well-being.
NY CPA
No real suggestions but commiserations. I’m exactly in the same position (although my salary isnt that low but still feels too low for the level of effort and stress). I try to find little ways to take breaks: a quick walk around the block (literally around the block–no further), a 10 min yoga video before I go to sleep. I also made a huge batch of cookies on a day off and froze the cookie dough in individual cookies so I can pop 2 of them in the oven and regularly have a delicious homemade snack. That’s a definite highlight. And then look for the light at the end of the tunnel. Make plans for after your project ends and let that motivate you.
Anon100
Definitely agree to make plans for what you’re going to do after this stressful period!
Meanwhile, what I’ve found is to step away from my desk and just spend 10 minutes outside soaking in the sun if the weather is good. Don’t look at your phone. You can have it on you, but occupy your hands with a cup of coffee or hot tea. Just take a few deep breaths and tell yourself this stressful period is “for now” and that when it’s done, you’ll do something super relaxing. Something where you can turn your brain off.
Anon
So when I see things like this, my thought is always assess what you’re actually doing. Most humans cannot be in production mode 15 hours a day, and often a lot of this time is watching the computer like you’re monitoring surveillance video (checking your slack channels, emails, etc.). I’d take control of my schedule – set hours where you get any production work done and turn off all alerts except a pass through from your boss or important person you shouldn’t ignore. Check email/slack etc., after that at set times and be judicious about what you respond to. If you’re always going first, that takes a lot more energy than waiting to see how the conversation develops. I worked in biglaw for a long time so I’ve seen people kill themselves and people who make it work. The make it work people figured out how to be in control of their time.
aBr
Big law here. The advice I was given years ago was that if you are going to have to work late regardless, make sure to take a decent lunch, go for a run, whatever to take a break. I’ve always found that I am so much happier as a person if I had some time away from work during the work day, even if it meant I had to work an extra half hour in the evening. I’m also a firm believer in not working late on Friday nights, unless it means you can get away with not working during the weekend. Again, for my happiness, if I’m going to have to work four hours, working an extra two hours on Saturday won’t change much if it means I got to have a proper dinner on Sunday with my husband. Likewise, I’m a pick proponent of having one day off during the weekend – again I’d rather work six hours on Saturday if it means I don’t have to think about work on Sunday – than start both days off with three hours of work.
A.
Can you take walking meetings, outdoors if preferable? Or walk while you’re on calls? I did that a lot when the world was in lockdown last spring and it did wonders for my mood.
anon
what’s a small fun indulgence I can plan for today or this weekend?
anne-on
Fancy dinner/dessert/cocktail delivered from a local restaurant, new book in your genre of choice (if you like romance, the new Talia Hibbert Brown Sisters book is out, Fredrik Bachman is another ‘feel good’ favorite), if you’re looking for short bingeable shows, Russian Doll, Home for Christmas, and the Baby Sitters Club are shorter and great. Order a complicated coffee drink and sit outside with the sun on your face (park, walk, beach, whatever) while you drink it.
A
Boba (bubble tea), cookies, a peaceful hike in the woods, mountains, or by a lake, a new houseplant, girl scout cookies, a slightly-fancier than usual takeout or dessert, dessert for breakfast, breakfast for dinner, a new book or movie
Cb
Are bookstores open where you are? Can you stop at a bookstore and a bakery en route home?
Anon
Are you comfortable getting a massage now? That’s my go-to indulgence. Otherwise I like the bakery and bookstore idea – get a delicious treat and something fun to read this weekend.
Anonymous
Daffodils are in season
Cat
Fresh flowers for your WFH area, new nail polish for an at-home pedi, getting the “fancy” takeout?
Nina
Ooh I love this fresh flowers idea.
pugsnbourbon
See if there’s a garden or conservatory near you – depending on your region, things are starting to bloom!
Vicky Austin
Oh this sounds so fun – and rejuvenating!
IL
An iced latte to celebrate spring! i.e., no more hot drinks. Or a bag of Easter candy from the drugstore?
If it’s warm enough, go stroll through a nearby garden center or nursery to check out the new plants.
Anonymous
I’m not normally a girly type. But buying wonderful smelling candles and soaps has become a huge pick-me-up during the past year. Atelier Cologne is one of my favorite new finds–I bought a perfume discovery set and it’s been fun trying out each of the new scents. But honestly, just some nice soap from Whole Foods makes all this hand washing lately feel a little indulgent.
Rainbow Hair
I’m trying to do regular (every other week?) “spa days” with kiddo on Saturdays. We steam up the bathroom, maybe light her Rapunzel candle, and I let her use the jade roller on my face, put coconut oil on her, etc. We sigh “oh we’re so relaxed” and sometimes do our nails after. It’s hard to truly relax relax with a kiddo around, but it’s actually really nice to do something unwindy that doesn’t have to involve locking the door.
Anonymous
This is so insanely cute.
Senior Attorney
Right? In my head I’m hearing her say “Oh, we’re so we-waxed!”
Anon
I do spa days with my kiddo too! We paint our nails and give each other massages.
Anon
I have an old sluggish tablet that I use only in the jacuzzi tub. Download a new e-book and have a bath with your favorite scented bath salts.
Ellen
Yay Elizabeth! It’s a timeless Cardigan today! I love it and am going to ask my Dad today to let me get it today!
Has anyone else heard about Armie Hammer and the alleged rape accusation from one of his ex girlfreinds? Gloria Allred is defending the claimant, so there must be more then just smoke there. She was dating him on and off, but one time he allegedly raped her for 4 hours. How awful, if true. I really liked Armie Hammer from the movie “The Social Network” when he played BOTH of the Vinkelvoss Twins. I thought they were 2 people until I was told he played BOTH twins. He was so good in that move that I found the Youtube clip to show my Dad. Dad liked it also.
I wonder if the Cuomo scandal will now cause more women to speak up. I sure hope so. Men should not get away doing these things w/o our consent. We have a right to knowingly agree or disagree before letting men do stuff with us s-xueally. That is only fair and I do not know if this is all happening more b/c of the pandemic. Does the HIVE think the Pandemic is at all to blame? I think it could be that some men want s-x and cannot get it so they do crazy stuff, like that Incel in Atlanta. That was really bad.
concerned friend
I have a friend who recently started working in big law and billed actually 18+ hours every week day for the last 2 weeks. This seems insane to me, is this normal? Do medical residents even work hours like this?
I know the big law deal is long hours and lots of money, and we’ve talked about that, but it’s still hard to deal with.
Thinking about it I have worked hours like this before on political campaigns, but that just felt different.
I told her that she should be ordering in groceries and whatever pre-prepped meals she likes, and sending her laundry out to be washed and folded, and whatever other conveniences you can pay for. How did y’all survive big law and times when you were working like this?
Anon
It’s a way of life. Many survive through the unpaid labor of a spouse or SO who picks up a lot of the daily labor and/or by outsourcing what can be outsourced. Since your friend doesn’t have the SO option, your advice on outsourcing is sound. How did I survive? After years of exhaustion, I left.
Anon
18 hour billable days are a lot, even for Big Law. I only had those in the immediate lead up to a trial. But yes, you outsource everything you can and there are many weeks where you don’t do anything except work and sleep. I know there are people who parent or date while in Big Law but I have no idea how – there were weeks I didn’t see my husband while we were both awake, despite living together and him working normal hours.
Cat
For short periods (a few weeks at a time), yes. One year I had 16 hours of conference calls on a Sunday alone.
The problem with trying to instill work-life balance is that companies pay Biglaw prices because they want/need that level of effort. So saying “no I am going to bed” or “no I need an afternoon off” is… not an option if you want to stay in Biglaw.
Cat
to clarify- when I was in Biglaw, on normal weeks I would be in the office about 10 hours (9-7) and bill another 1-2 from home. I took Saturdays “off” (errands, manicure, haircuts, dinner or lunch date out, etc). Sundays I billed a few hours (2-4 usually) in the afternoon to get ahead for the week, especially if I had Lost It by Friday afternoon of a long week.
But if there is a tornado of a deal or case, then yes, those kinds of hours pile up for a few weeks. The plus side is that you have a great cushion of hours in case you get slow or — let’s hope — want to take a vacation!
concerned friend
Yeah it hasn’t been this way the whole time she’s been there, it’s been a lot but manageable, the past couple weeks have just been bad. She doesn’t quite have enough food in the house at all times and doesn’t have time to grocery shop or cook bad..
Anonymous
There has got to be a better way. I saw the Goldman hours story too – we all have to be the change we want to see. I don’t know how else to fix it. I did i-banking right out of school and choose a boutique that didn’t require stupid hours, and actually paid better than the bulge bracket offers I had. I am so glad. Life is short.
Anonymous
Is there a better way? Sure. Will things change? Unlikely. People have been talking about how “bad” it is for at least the 20 years I’ve been practicing, but so long as people are driven by the almighty dollar, there will be people willing to do the work in the Big Law way, and the cycle will keep going. That’s not to say there aren’t other ways to practice law though. You just will not command $200K right out of school (nor should you) and that may be the most you ever make (and that’s more than ok).
Anonymous
I’m in biglaw and I’ve never in eight years billed 18+ hours for more than a few days in a row. I don’t think I could do it. Because sometimes you have to do things at work or home that aren’t billed. I’ve worked 18-hour days for a comparable period of time though. Yes, she should outsource everything she can. She should definitely order groceries and meals during this stretch at least. I suppose I’ve survived as long as I have by more or less refusing to work quite that hard. We get paid a lot but not enough to kill ourselves.
Anon
Yeah, it’s often said here that you only get as much work-life balance as you take. Obviously a first year associate can’t just be like “Ok, it’s 7 pm, I’m going home, have a nice night!” But you can enforce limits, especially if you’re ok with not making partner. I worked in Big Law for 7 years and except in very unusual situations I basically never checked email between midnight and 7 am. If I was on track for a 75 billable hour week/250 billable hour month (which translates to 3000 a year, which is a lot, even in Big Law), I felt comfortable turning down new work by just straight up telling people I had too much to do. And I found ways to sort of indirectly turn down work even when my hours weren’t as high (e.g., “I have X project that will keep me occupied until Friday, but I can turn to this then”…that often results in them finding someone else who will do it faster). I took a vacation ever year. My firm was AmLaw 50 but kind of lifestyle-ish, but I worked for some very demanding partners who came from Skadden, one of the firms that’s most notorious for being a sweatshop. And sometimes the partners I worked for were a little annoyed with my work-life boundaries but the bottom line is I did excellent work and I easily worked 60-70 hours on average and that was enough, at least if you left before you were up for partner. I doubt I would have made partner, but that was never my goal.
TheElms
My approach pre kid was to lean into the awfulness. I just accepted for that period of time all I was going to do was work and sleep and eat while working. All my meals were eaten at work/ordered in. I didn’t exercise. I didn’t see people other than work people (including my SO really because he was generally asleep when I got home and still asleep when I left in the morning). The benefit is the big cushion of hours you get from doing it so at some point you’ll be able to take a vacation. My teams / colleagues were also good so that when we worked really long hours people covered for one another so you typically got one night off a week. So I’d leave work on my “night off” around 7pm and not be expected to respond again or work until 9am the next morning (as opposed to working until 1 or 2am and being going again by 7 or 8am). That helped a lot. For me it never lasted more than a month of working like that so it was “doable” in a sense. I do recall one 3 month stretch where I worked everyday (including weekends) for about 8-10 hours a day and that was pretty awful as well because it was so long without a day off, but I still had evenings to myself. It was a weird project where the work had to be done at a client site and the site was only open “normal business hours — 8-5 or 9-7 depending on the day– so I basically had to be at the client site when it was open. I was junior enough then though that it was my only project so nothing piled up to be addressed in the evenings when I wasn’t there.
Since having a kid, I’ve just said no. My life can’t support that amount of work now. It has limited my options and I’ll likely never make partner as a result, but I’ve mostly made my peace with that.
Anon
You have to set boundaries. No one else will do it for you. You need to go home and sleep when you need to sleep, period, and never expect anyone else to watch out for that need for you. Workers are near disposable and interchangeable to these people. Do you think they are going to care about your welfare ever? If they did, they would have cracked down on the hours already.
concerned friend
I think WFH is making it worse – you’re already at home so there’s no “going home”, and you technically could be working at any time.
Anon
Eh there’s not really “going home” for associates even in normal times – you pretty much can’t leave the office until all the partners and senior associates have left. If you have to work these hours, it’s better to do it from home in your PJs with pets and a spouse if applicable nearby, trust me. I’ve been full-time work from office and 80% WFH in BIg Law and the WFH was much, much better for my sanity. Saving the commute time is also invaluable when you have those kinds of hours.
Anon
Nope, you can still set boundaries and it’s even more important to do so. Set an out of office if you need to – “I am offline and will respond to your email tomorrow.” People will only violate your boundaries at home if you let them. If they continue to violate them despite your best efforts, then consider whether the job is really worth it.
concerned friend
I’m actually very good at boundaries – lunch break, dinner time, sleeping hours, etc. Most people are just used to people not pushing back, but completely fine when you do so politely. But idk, seems like big law people are not like that.
Cat
Doing this in any industry would seem incredibly bizarre to me. Just… don’t answer, rather than putting up an OOO. This type of OOO would get an associate counseled straight out the door.
Anon
Yeah don’t do this. Just don’t answer the email. They can and will call you if it’s that urgent and even in Big Law people recognize that not everything is an emergency, but putting up an out of office response would enrage people.
Anon
Agree with setting boundaries but do not announce them, just do them. It’s counterproductive to be the person always saying “nope”
Anon
Oh I agree and would never do it myself, but I was trying to offer a suggestion to the people who always say it’s so hard to set boundaries at home. It works better for me to just stop answering email when I’m done for the day.
Anon
For me the problem is I set boundaries, no one else does and then I look like I’m underperforming in comparison. I’m in small law and worked decent hours. We now have an associate that kills herself doing big law hours. I’ve made clear that I won’t work the hours she does. She gets a bigger bonus and I’m fine with that. But my boss was happy with my hours before she started and now a few years in is always suggesting I can do more.
Anonymous
Looking at this empirically, it makes sense – if she bills more, she collects more, therefore she’s bringing in more to the partners and “deserves” a bigger bonus. It sucks, but it’s how law firms work.
Anon
I have no problem with her getting the bigger bonus. My problem is with her work hours changing the partners’ expectation of my work hours.
Anon
To answer just one question in your comment. My SO is a doctor and I work in finance. I’ve been working ~80 hour weeks recently, and that is more than my husband. Usually, when not in this stretch, every given week is a toss-up between who is working more vs. less (we’re usually both ~70-75 hours/week with ups or downs from there).
Anonymous
You have it exactly right, you outsource: food delivery service, laundry pick up and drop off, car service to add from work, a Target order on auto supply, etc. And fill the freezer with microwave meals, there is no time to really cook.
Anon for this
Similar to concerned friend above, Goldman Sachs first years put together a presentation regarding their unreasonable working conditions. Thoughts? Is this the price to pay for the high salary (which looks lower than biglaw even)? Necessary training with the expectation that most people will leave in a year or so? Or can we all just agree to a hard stop at say midnight every night to preserve some mental health?
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1jyeu-wvS3Z10xQ0BlMIDOkh_INoP_Nnb/view?campaign_id=4&emc=edit_dk_20210319&instance_id=28229&nl=dealbook®i_id=62469099&segment_id=53755&te=1&user_id=434c84ced217fce015c1c7c5db68849b
Anonymous
This is such garbage. A survey of 13 analysts? I would honestly straight up fire them all.
And I say that as someone who thinks banking hours are absurd and many (most) junior staff are treated like garbage. They aren’t wrong to feel like that but this presentation is just stating the obvious and complaining. A much more powerful project would be a survey of hundreds of analysts, including formers. I’d like to see questions on sexual harassment, as well as impact to the firm on associate burnout (hint: none, they’ll just fire/replace). I would also expect the recommendations/action items to include a strategy to lower salaries to compensate for the reduction in hours per analyst.
Friends?
How do you deal with “friends” who don’t break up with you but just start dropping you out of social things you were earlier part of as a group (of 3 couples here), hang out or plan major life decisions (like a covid wedding with exactly 4 of them, no family, no other friends) with only the other couple but still try to act friendly with you on text/social media as if nothing happened, they didn’t drop you. It doesn’t hurt really with a pandemic & everything but I keep going back and forth between cutting off completely and continuing this fake, “this is totally normal” act.
Anon
I don’t fully understand what happened, but don’t be offended you weren’t invited to someone’s Covid era wedding – the pandemic obviously forces people to keep things small and not invite everyone they would normally want to invite.
Anonymous
+1 if a friend got salty I didn’t invite them to a covid event I would seriously question their judgement. It’s a frickin pandemic, it’s not personal, it’s safety.
Anonymous
Idk what’s really going on here but sounds to me like they haven’t dropped you, still consider you friends, had a very small wedding because of a deadly plague, and maybe have reduced their socialization crowd for the same reason. I don’t see how any of this is fake. Part of being an adult is accepting that there are levels of friendship.
Cat
It doesn’t seem weird to me that 2 out of 3 couples might hang out “one on one” (or “two on two” I guess in your case), and especially so this year. Making couple friends is exponentially harder than individual friends. Maybe they like you in the group of 6 for get-togethers but really ‘clicked’ with the other couple?
It’s not clear from your post how long this has been going on or how extreme (like are you never invited anymore and it’s been months? Or now you’re only included a smaller % of the time?) but try asking about an outdoor get-together?
OP
I’ve invested several years of my time and effort on them. Cooking for them, inviting them over to my place when they had stuff going on at theirs, going on long weekend trips, cooking at their places, pet sitting for them, celebrating holidays/Thanksgiving together and so on. I totally get the covid stuff, that’s not the issue, the issue is even a week before they were talkin to us on zoom but “forgot” to tell us about the wedding. We’d have totally understood why it has to be a small wedding and sent gifts. Similarly we’ve hung out together for past holidays and did nothing this year but seems like they hung out and then lied about it! It’s not so much them hanging out but this lying that I don’t like I guess. Which is why I’m not hurt that they hang out in fact I even understand why they might click better, I don’t know how to address this constant secretive/lying/behind the back stuff… If that makes sense? I’m sorry I realize I sound like a petty high schooler.
good luck
Gently, do you think the reason they may not have told you was because they knew how you would respond? This way?
Anonymous
Agree. This comment pretty much explains why they didn’t tell you.
OP
Not to push back but i sincerely don’t get it. How could I complain about someone lying to me or trying to be secretive, if they weren’t? The wedding is just an example, and maybe the last straw in some ways but this has been happening for more than a year with smaller things like dinners/visits/hang outs pre-coivd etc too… again I hang out with other friends too but I don’t actively lie about them or hide them.
anonshmanon
I’m just not sure if what you frame as actively lying could really be that they were trying not to broadcast their socializing to people who weren’t invited. The obvious intention would be to prevent hurt feelings and awkwardness. I could see this as you texting ‘what’s everybody doing for the holidays’ and them just answering vaguely ‘no trips to the family this year, just taking it easy’. Or they fully intended to spend the holidays alone, told you as much and then spontaneously did something with the other couple. If they have been decent friends in the before times, I just think it’s worth it to see things in the most charitable light imaginable.
Anonymous
It was basically an in-town elopement. Literally everyone wants to be told.
My BFF eloped to Dominican Republic in before times. Would have loved to know in advance? Sure! But so would have her sister, mom, grandma, his mom etc. Once you start telling people beyond witnesses, it’s not an elopement. You can chose to be annoyed about it or not but it’s not an unusual thing they have done. Friendships ebb and flow, especially in three way friendships, someone will always feel a little on that outside.
anonshmanon
This year was really weird. So many considerations on whether and how to socialize, so much frustration and lashing out and judging each other, and disagreements over how to handle the pandemic, even within households. I’ve definitely been selective not only with who I invite to sit in the backyard with me, but also who I tell about this socializing. Maybe they kept their pod small for safety and opted to not tell you so you wouldn’t feel left out. Then you found out about it and their plan totally backfired. If you can bring yourself to wipe out the past year and pretend it never happened, and assess the relationship by what it feels like in more normal times, it may still be fulfilling.
Anon
Being hurt is justified but I also think you would have been hurt if they had told you about it. Being excluded sucks, no way around that.
Anon
It’s weird and I would feel the same way as you. I’m sure there are all kinds of possible reasons but I don’t know what their intention was.
anon
I’ve been in friend triangles before and honestly two of the three will always be closer. It’s something you can decide whether you’re okay with or not, but don’t take it personally.
AFT
This. I have also had feelings hurt when you’re part of Couple #3, but if you otherwise enjoy the friendships you kind of have to get over it and accept that this is the relationship you currently have. You can make an effort to build the relationship, but I don’t think the other couples are doing anything wrong by socializing together without OP.
Anon
This. I’m in couple 3 with one group, and am friend 2 in another friend triangle. It’s fine, friendships have levels of closeness and clicking.
Anon
That’s an interesting insight. I hadn’t thought of it before but I’m in several “triangles,” both individual friends and couple friends, and I think you’re 100% right.
Anonymous
My guess on the wedding would be that it was kept secret to avoid having potential covid negotiations with family. If they could truthfully say «nobody knew but us and best man A and B», nobody was left out. (I’m assuming the other couple were legal witnesses.)
It sucks to feel left out, especially when you invest so much energy in the friendship. In terms of handling it, I think «covid sucks, I look forward to being able to have more normal relationships again» is the mental gear that will be most helpful.
Anon
This.
Senior Attorney
This could totally be it. With weddings you really never know what kind of calculus goes into the guest list. A few years ago my husband got his Universal Life Church ordination and officiated a wedding for a friend with just them and us and some random friends of ours who happened to be on board when we were passing through their town on vacation on our private train car. It was super secret and the reason it went down that way was for this exact reason — too many competing friends and family members and too much drama about a big local wedding vs destination wedding vs I don’t know what-all. So they just snuck off and boom! It was a fait accompli!
Although I know it stings, OP. The pandemic has been hard in lots of ways.
Anonymous
I can relate. I have one particular friend group that I’ve always felt a little on the outskirts of. I just can’t hang out as often as everyone else can. The pandemic has really shown me that I’m an ancillary friend to them. They’ve been getting together in small groups or one on one but I’m rarely included. When I am invited, everyone’s like, omg where have you been??? Ummm I haven’t been invited to anything since I last saw you? And when I suggest doing something, everyone is “busy”? It stings for sure. I don’t think it’s necessarily intentional, and I don’t take it as them lying to me, I’m just not as much of a priority as people they’re closer too, which tbh is fair enough. I will enjoy the time I have with the group because they’re nice people and sometimes it’s cool to get a group together to go to a concert or whatever (in before times). But most of my energy will be invested in friendships with people who also value me.
Anonymous
I had this happen with a “brunch club” comprised of everybody… Except me. It hurt, and still hurts, but I had to just give thanks for all the other good friends who are thrilled to see me (and I them) and jazzed about our plans whenever we can safely get together.
anon
I’m probaly a lot older than you and maybe this is a southern thing, but when I was a kid if you were going to have a party and invite friends A-E but not friends F and G, then you would not mention the party in front of F and G and pretend it didn’t happen. My mom was very strict, saying that telling someone and not inviting them was rude and low class, sorta like gloating that they weren’t invited. It also applied if you were invited but knew someone who wasn’t invited. This is the root of not sending birthday party invitations through school unless the whole class is invited. Of course, this was before social media where people usually find out about events that they weren’t invited to later.
My guess is that they thought you’d be insulted to not be there for the wedding and were too embarrassed to suck it up and tell you. We can all understand only a 2-person group to witness and elopement and a 2-person group in a pandemic is also understandable.
Though you may not be the “best friends” of both couples, they still can be your friends. If you can get past it, you might realize that it’s important to have friends, not that you have to be the best couple, it’s not a competition. And that with the elopement and pandemic, they excluded you not to lie to you but to save your feelings.
Nudibranch
Do you have very different political beliefs?
This last year with politics, BLM, COVID, etc. have really brought some interpersonal issues into the forefront for many of us. I’ve definitely pulled back from talking/interacting/hanging out with people this last year whose worldview and politics were incredibly stressful to me. I still consider them (sort-of) friends, but at a much less close level. I’m not seeking them out because I don’t want to be around them in case the subject/s came up in conversation. (I can see them having the same reaction as you.)
No, I’m not likely to confront them. It’s not worth it to me. I’ve just moved them from “friend” to “acquaintance” in my inner category label. I will probably not be interested in spending the same amount of time with them as before, likely ever.
Anon for this
Similar to concerned friend above, Goldman Sachs first years just put out a presentation regarding unreasonable working hours. Thoughts? Is this just the price to pay for a high salary (which looks to be lower than biglaw even)? Necessary training with the expectation that most people will leave in a few years? Or can we all just put a hard stop at say midnight every night to preserve some mental health?
Anonymous
Hahahahahahahahaha I truly cannot
Anon
I think long hours are and should be the expectation for that kind of salary, but there should be some limits for health, both mental and physical (quite a few young Big Law associates have heart attacks from the long hours and sleep deprivation). You can work 75 hours a week and still get 8 hours of sleep. You can’t work 120 hours a week and get enough sleep.
Anon
I saw a copy of that deck on Imgur. Respondents were getting an average of 5 hours of sleep, starting at 3am, and worked an average of 105 hours the past week. That’s insane to me. The productivity difference between working 65 hours and 105 hours has to be negligible.
Anonymous
Frankly I think it should be malpractice to have people working those hours. None of my clients want to pay for an associate’s 15th+ hour of the day. And I don’t want to have to review an associate’s work that was done after midnight. It’s too easy to make mistakes when you’re working those hours.
Senior Attorney
I remember YEARS AND YEARS ago, I was working crazy hours on a case and the billing partner pulled me into a phone call with the irate client who was yelling about how he was danged if he was going to pay for 18 hours in one day! And I was thinking “OMG I remember that day and I was at the office for, like, 22 hours, and it was horrible,” and also “if he’s not paying for it, I’m never doing it again.” And I don’t think I ever did.
anonshmanon
This is my main concern looking in from the outside. There is clear research about decline in productivity with increasing hours worked. Not just diminishing returns but net loss of productivity from overworked workers. As a potential client, I’d feel that paying for twice the hours while all the lawyers are sleep deprived zombies would be a terrible waste of resources. But maybe you hire biglaw firms when money is no issue?
Anon
A lot of associate time gets written off, meaning it isn’t billed to clients. But yes generally people who hire Big law firms aren’t super budget conscious.
Anon
There’s lots of people with as long hours and as much stress who don’t get paid half as much. I think it’s a bit whiny. There is no way that a 21 year old with no work experience is worth that salary otherwise, which is approximately double what their peers are being paid to go into most other industries.
Anonymous
Yeah… These kids are getting paid too much and being whiny. I’m all for mental health awareness and better sleep hygiene, but on the whole what good are a bunch of Goldman Sachs kids doing for society compared to superunderpaid medical students and residents or extremely poorly paid and overworked nonprofit staff?
Anon
Or many accountants? I am always surprised that people go into the field, as it gets more complex, the non-complex things are given to machines now, and budgets aren’t going up. OTOH, there will always be a need for them.
Anon
I’m the anon at 9:18AM and I’m actually a CPA at a Big 4 accounting firm, and that’s exactly who I was thinking of. What I was starting my career about 6 or 7 years ago, I was paid $57K (with a masters degree) while lots of the people I went to undergrad with were making $120K+ at Goldman and the like. I was frequently working 80+hr weeks. And the awful thing is that over time, as you move up the chain, accountants work more hours and have less work-life balance while bankers do the opposite.
Anonymous
Just curious – do you feel the same way about the biglaw people here?
Anonymous
Not the original commenter, but I do. I think Big Law should pay about $140k and hire 125% of the lawyers they currently do. Do not tell me that would lower the hiring standard. Biglaw hiring practices are terrible and I think they get it wrong at least 50% of the time, so hiring more will actually increase their talent pool.
Anon from 9:42am
If you’re referring to my post from 9:42, no I do not feel that way about lawyers or biglaw, mostly because I have a huge irrational resentment of Goldman Sachs, investment bankers, hedge funds, etc being bailed out after the great recession. I graduated from college around then, and lets just say I wanted to “do good” and help the world (environment, climate, societal issues) knowing I’d have to make a tiny salary while people in i-banking got more than twice my then-salary as mere “bonuses.” So enraging.
At least lawyers are generally trying to do something useful (from their own or their clients’ perspectives) even if they are working for the hedge funds. Hedge funds can all go effffff themselves and die. Yes I’m still mad 10+ years later. Yes I know this is highly irrational thinking.
I actually don’t have much experience with accountants, so I didn’t think of it in my original post, but I appreciate that Anon at 10:32 brought it up.
Nesprin
Agreed- I worry about residents working extremely long hours. I have blessedly little sympathy for goldman-sachs types.
Anon
And a resident is making ~ $50k/yr
Anonymous
“Other people have it worse” is not a great argument. It’s not ok for anyone’s employer(s) to force them to work those hours, regardless of pay.
Anon
This can’t be a surprise — weren’t most of these people summer interns at Goldman? And no job just gives you $. You have to work for it. If it is $$$, expect to be doing three jobs’ worth of work.
But what I don’t get is sticking your head out of the foxhole to complain about something obvious, especially at a job that likely has high turnover. It gets you voted off the island first, should they need to do that and probably follows you around in a small world. [Why not do what the guy did in Office Space — underachieve since you’ll probably be out the door soon anyway and accidentally get yourself branded as management material? I know that last part is fiction, but just lean out since you’re likely going to leave soon anyway? You don’t need sustainable hours in a revolving-door job; you need sustainable hours in a for-life job.]
Anon
Controversial but it’s such a joke to me that these industries think they’re so important and worthy of long hours. It would be funny if it didn’t lead to terrible health outcomes for the workers. They’ve all really got you believing that line about how they pay you so much so they own you.
I wonder if we could get an update from that associate who took a canoeing trip when there was a deadline in biglaw. Last we heard, everything went great, but I’d be curious how it went long-term.
Ribena
Agree with you.
anon
I agree, Anon at 9:45. Sorry but there’s really nothing so earth shattering in banking or law that requires these hours. I suspect it’s more of a bragging thing. “Look how hard I’m working even if I’m doing nothing useful!”
anon
100 percent agree. But then again, I would never voluntarily work for a place like that, no matter how high the salary.
Anon
Having worked in Big Law, I’m confident it did not go well long term. Everybody is fungible and there are many equally smart and competent associates who wouldn’t have taken that trip.
Anon
And that’s why nothing changes. I only got three hours of sleep last night (due to insomnia) and I don’t know how people regularly work like this. I certainly couldn’t perform surgery. I can barely follow a deposition.
Anon
To be clear, I’m not saying it’s a good thing, just that I believe based on what I witnessed in a firm that there’s no way it would have gone well for that associate. Although to be fair, I think there are a plenty of saner workplaces where skipping town when there’s a major project deadline would be frowned upon. There’s a huge difference between never being able to take a vacation and having some limits on the timing of vacations.
Anon
Totally agree.
Anon
The canoe trip! I forgot about that one. I agree with your first paragraph, too.
Rainbow Hair
Your first paragraph is basically why I quit biglaw… like, yes, it was important *to my employer* that I be available at all times to search a database they hadn’t bothered to get anyone else up to speed on; yes, it was important *to the partner* that I spend countless hours alphabetizing things because they “didn’t trust the paralegal”, etc. etc. But like, in the *world*? Who cares!? Except I was starting to believe it, starting to get really eye-rolly if someone getting a coffee in front of me took too long, starting to tap my foot… screw. that.
Here’s the neat thing… I’ve now also worked at small litigation firms, with more cost-conscious clients, and learned that you can do work that gets similar results for way! way! less money/hours! If a C+ brief will win your MSJ, why would your client want to pay 10x more for an A+ one? (I’m not saying things should/can be sloppy intellectually or presentation-wise, but there’s a level of polishing/perfectionism that is only required because the client is paying so damn much.)
Anon
This!
Anonymous
+1. I’ve seen so many “emergencies” that were anything but. Half of the things we do are never seen by anyone or looked at ever again, but in the moment, it’s all OMGemergency.
Anon
This — I find that clients, even big clients, don’t want to pay for perfection. They will pay for “gets the job done,” sort of the Honda civic of the legal world. They will pay Wachtel rates for Wachtel-level tasks (so some work a client that loves Wachtel has will never go to Wachtel b/c $) and then they will likely only pay it to Wachtel (so not AmLaw 100 but Wachtel or a handful of other firms).
You don’t always need a Porsche or have a Porsche budget. Clients scrutinize everything (or their robots / outsourcing legal bill review firms do). Some nonsense that I see I would never dare bill.
LaurenB
Agree. Medical residents are at least doing something useful. Tech people who stay awake all night are creating a new technology. These people do … what? It’s all busywork.
concerned friend
Oh god this is rough. I didn’t even see this when I posted about my biglaw friend.
Have your work hours negatively impacted
relationships with family and/or friends? 100%
Have you sought or considered seeking counseling,
therapy or any additional services for your mental
health due to the stress of this job? 75%
God. If you’re looking for the slides the Bloomberg Wealth article has a link to them in the word presentation.
Cat
Well, yeah. It’s an intense job with high pay. Like Biglaw, people plan to do this for a few years to get experience and connections, and then bail. It’s a well-known tradeoff!
concerned friend
Sure, but 1) I don’t think any job that is making you as depressed as these bankers are is worth it and 2) workers rights should be respected to some extent, no matter the industry.
Anon
The alternative seems to be what many other industries do – hire 2 people at half the pay.
Anonymous
This. The work needs to get done. They can work fewer hours but then they earn less money. They want the high salaries and low hours. Like not realistic at all. Tell GS you’d take a 30% pay cut if they hire 30% more people and you all get to work 30% hours less than current.
Anonymous
These comments are ridiculous. No you do not deserve to get worked to death just because you’re well compensated.
Let’s also not pretend that these kids have a lot of options if they have student loans and no family support. When I graduated from law school, I was paying over $30k/year after tax in student loans. When I was looking for jobs, salaries were like $50-75k or $160k and basically nothing in between. I couldn’t have even paid my loans on $50k. I couldn’t have made ends meet on $75k. If id been able to find a job that paid $100k I would’ve jumped on it, but there was nothing. I didn’t choose biglaw because I wanted a super cushy salary, I chose it because it was the only job I could get that would allow me to pay my bills. The price of becoming a lawyer should not be indentured servitude.
Anon
I don’t think paying $30k per year on student loans is anywhere close to normal, at least for recent college graduates.
Anonymous
Then you are mistaken.
Anon
How? Even if you have $100k in loans, annual payments are going to be less than half that? These are people straight out of college. They don’t have law school loans to pay back.
Anonymous
+1. I hate how we bend over backwards to justify this abusive behavior when there are very, very few well-paid options for grads coming right out of school.
Anon
Right!? I cannot believe the comments saying this is fine.
Anon
There are sooo, sooo many other majors a kid in college can choose that cost the same amount but do not lead to this kind of starting salary for graduates. I don’t buy the argument that they need these specific jobs or they’ll be destitute.
Curious
Yes but I do have a number of friends who were Latino/a first generation college students who took these jobs to pay back debt fast and establish a financial cushion and paid with years of their lives. They didn’t really see other options — it was $40K and not pay loans or $200K, with little in between, in 2010. Not sure if that’s true in 2021 but it was definitely true for us in the “recovery” when a large portion of my Ivy League class didn’t find jobs for 6+ months.
Kitten
I agree that there are not a lot of happy-medium jobs right out of law school. The big law jobs drive up the average salary. When I graduated, it was also the $50k or $160k options like you said. The economy was bad that year and biglaw only took like 20 kids. I was considered “lucky” for getting an $70k job with no benefits. My loan payments were $1200 (also considered lucky by my friends that my loans were low enough to be paid off in the traditional 10 year plan). I would have jumped at the chance to work in biglaw tbh. The kids I knew there didn’t seem to work crazy hours.
anon
Yes, completely agree. And people are not going into biglaw solely for the money; you also go because you know it will set you up with a strong resume for life, and because you think you will be working on big and important matters, and that sounds exciting. Everybody has been telling you that this is the thing to strive for. Sure you’ve heard you’ll be billing 2400 hours, but what does that even mean to a 22 or 25 year old with no real world experience? As MJ pointed out below, until you work a job like that, you truly can’t appreciate what it is like to live those hours with no end in sight. I think many of the commenters are assuming a fresh-out-of-law-school (or finance) student actually appreciates what they’re getting themselves into, but that is not reality. It’s something we tell ourselves as we get more senior, in order to justify maintaining the status quo.
Anon
The people justifying the treatment of the GS associates are exactly what’s wrong with the haughty rich guys who treat them like this. The work does not necessitate this kind of treatment, expectations of hoity toity rich folks do. Most of the time, they aren’t complaining about “regular” long hours (like 10-12 everyday) and the occasional very long hours for deadlines, but rather 14 – 18 hr days for years on end where they are simultaneously treated like crap, verbally abused, and when not working, expected to socialize and drink themselves into oblivion with the same people. I dare the women on this board to sleep 4 to 5 hours consistently for years with little to no friend or family time or exercise – you know sleep deprivation is a form of torture and social isolation is a form of abuse right? But oh, they’re paid handsomely for it! No. It’s digging an early grave and no amount of money is worth it. You should be ashamed of yourselves.
Anon
Then they should not do these jobs?
anonshmanon
Your dismissive refusal to entertain other possibilities just strikes me as so short sighted. Nothing is gained by working at this crazy pace. The lawyers are unhappy. Their families hate it. The client is not getting a better product out of it. When you’re in such a distorted field for a while, you start thinking that this is just the way things have to be, that’s really common.
Anon
I don’t get it? I’m not saying it’s fine. I’m saying it’s bad enough that they should go work in other jobs for other employers in other fields that are actually humane. If you’re asking me to start a crusade for the working conditions of rich, white, finance bros who chose their professions, then you might be asking the wrong person.
anonshmanon
Nah, there is room for a more nuanced response somewhere between starting a crusade and just dismissing their concerns. First step would be to reflect on what you are doing to exacerbate the problem.
Anon
I think it’s good for these guys to speak up and I feel for them. Honestly, I don’t want a culture where working this much is a thing because it carries over. GS first years don’t just stay at GS their whole careers, they go on to run companies and carry with them the expectation of others working too much, even when comp is lower.
There’s not much choice for a lot of people to work fewer hours for less money—-I know in my own area of law, I can work very long hours or I can not work. There’s no inherent reason for this, it’s just expectations creep over the years. It’s not sustainable or good for the field or society.
anon
Agree 100%. This treatment is never ok and trying to justify it is gross.
Anonymous
+100. Can’t agree strongly enough.
Refinnej
There’s a lot of Stockholm syndrome on this board.
Anon
I don’t work in finance or in law, so I don’t think I understand the nuances here. Are the Goldman Sachs hours a lot worse than Big Law?
Kitten
I only know one person who’s done both and she would say GS is much worse.
MJ
I was an IB analyst once. It was hard–really hard! I was told by multiple people that I had it worst in my class (based on my coked-up manager). I would _go home_ between 3-5am many days, and be expected to be a normal person, showered and perky, back in my chair at 9am, for days in a row.
Please remember, that even if these kids were told they would work hard/long hours, etc., that you cannot truly understand how hard it is to work that hard, for that long, for many weeks in a row. It’s one thing for an MD who can delegate downward, and probably has a spouse that runs his/her whole “outside” life–it’s another thing when you’re college-loan-heavy, not-sure-you-like-your-job, so exhausted-feel-like-a-rag-doll-about-to-throw-up, experiencing serious muscle strain/workplace injury from being at a desk at all hours, and barely have a work support system because you are working remotely.
Is this job more or less hard than digging ditches for minimum wage? It doesn’t matter–it’s not the pity olympics. People can be trapped in jobs like this because of debt, or familial expectations, or not having any savings cushion because they’re right out of college. It is not humane to ask anyone, regardless of their education or class or choices…to work to the point they are not eating, are having serious mental and physical health effects, etc.
As I said–I worked in a job like this, and we weren’t going to get big bonuses–it was a serious downturn. People were getting laid off. And while this multi-trillion dollar bank was causing me not to get my period for months from exhaustion, we were being told we were LUCKY to have jobs like this by management, and that there was a whole line of kids who would gladly take our spot in a heartbeat. It was abusive and gross, and it’s why I left finance.
I believe them. And I am sorry that any employer, big or small, would treat their employees this way, especially new grads who are new to the workforce, and who are getting an extremely skewed view of what is acceptable.
Anon for this
OP here. One of the quotes from the slides were that they didn’t expect to work 9-5pm but they also didn’t expect to work 9-5am. I think there is a big difference between working a long hours job of 9-9pm, even for weeks at a time, that doesn’t leave you with much time for a life, and one that requires working well past midnight continuously. I’m an in house lawyer and we do use big law, but I don’t have any expectation that they work all night or overnight and try to give reasonable deadlines (I mean, they’re not going to be done by 5pm but they also don’t need to work at 3am).
anon
clap clap clap clap!!
Anon
I was an IB analyst and associate at the beginning of my career also (now in corporate finance for better work hours and lower pay) and I echo this.
Esk
BBC has a drama called Industry that is this exact thing. Don’t know if it is accurate or not but sounds just like GS
BeenThatGuy
I’m about to apply for a HELOC for my first time. I’m getting estimates for home repairs/renovations that will cost about 75-100K and I have about 325K in equity. Does anyone have any advice before I start shopping around?
A.
We looked into this for a recent renovation and chose instead to refinance our mortgage and take money out against our home. We only needed about $40K and we had $100K+ in equity, plus the rates were so low when we locked in (at 2.5% for a 10-year) that we could afford to accelerate our payment timeline and pay the house off sooner. I don’t know how long you think you might stay in your place but this solution was way better for us financially so it might be worth considering.
BeenThatGuy
Thanks. Last year, I refinanced to a 15 year mortgage at 2.5%. My mortgage broker talked me out of doing the cash out refi at the time because it would have brought my rate up into the mid 3% range. It’s possible I was being naïve and he was trying to make additional money off of me by doing 2 separate transactions.
AFT
My financial advisor has said that fewer banks are doing HELOCs lately, so your options may be limited in terms of lenders. When I got my most recent HELOC about 5 years ago (through Chase, which may not do them now), the process was very much “refinancing lite” – collecting lots of documents but not as thorough as a full mortgage refi or initial purchase, and I believe the inspection wasn’t as onerous (maybe outdoor only, or based on comps or something?) Sorry, my recollection is very hazy!
If you haven’t gone through a refinancing/gotten a mortgage recently, I refinanced this past fall and it took much longer than in the past because the demand to refinance was so high… basically we had to sit around and wait for the bank to get to our file. I’m not sure how that will track into HELOCs. Good luck and hope it goes smoothly.
Anonymous
We did a $200k 15Y home equity loan in 2018, at 5% (but no closing costs) and one year later we refi’d it down to 2.75% (also with no closing costs). Slightly different than a HELOC, but we are paying it down fairly fast (~100k left). FWIW it’s a loan on a house now worth $1.2M, so closing costs as a % of the loan were significant and worth it to save.
Car Rental
Has anyone ever rented a car through Turo? How did it go? It’s my first time renting through them, so if anyone has a referral code, let me know!
DC
We did last weekend! We rented a tesla model y to test it out because we are thinking about buying one. It was very easy to set up and everything went great.
Car Rental
Oh that’s such a good idea! I like the idea of doing a multi-day test drive that way.
EB
I have done it a couple of times pre-pandemic. It was pretty seamless and really fun to have a cool sports car instead of a boring rental car. Would do it again.
Car Rental
Oh good, thanks! That’s basically why I was thinking of renting with them – wanted to rent something specific for my husband’s birthday weekend.
Anon
Which of these offers would you go for? I’m in a specialist corporate function.
Company A, giant industrial conglomerate. Hundreds of thousands of employees. Good strategy and management team, and my skill set is core to their growth strategy. I’d be a minority in both gender and race. Company has solid D&I program.
Company B, high-end consulting firm. Good reputation, track record of revenue growth. High-profile projects, chance to learn a lot. Long hours. Great exit options. I’d be a minority in gender but not race. D&I program seems to be statements only.
Salary is equal. WWYD?
Anonymous
A. Because to me consulting equals change and travel and I like stability.
Anon
If you are in your 20s, B. I worked for B and it was a good learning experience and opened a lot of doors and sort of provides some back-up gravitas now that I am in a secondary market. You always need another job at some point and a network is good to have. A isn’t a bad option though. But I am the sort who knows you probably only get to work at B one time and I would want to show that I could have done it and not not have it on my resume.
nuqotw
What about non-salary compensation – PTO, health insurance, retirement, bonus structure, etc.? I’m not sold on either firm’s D&I work -it sounds like A is thinking more about it than B, but B is walking the walk more than A? But it’s really hard to say from the outside. I don’t think there’s an obvious right or wrong answer here.
I’d probably do one of (1) pick A because it sounds like the hours are more reasonable, which means you are in effect getting paid more at A than B or (2) try to get B to come up in salary/PTO to compensate for the longer hours.
Flats Only
B. You will have so much more fun. At A you’ll be a cog in the machine for at least 10 years before you can make any impact. (If you don’t get laid off in a whimsical restructuring that has nothing to do with how great you are). I would not worry about the presence or absence of formal D&I initiatives. They are often just there to check a box for corporate goodness, and can’t possibly reflect how your small part of the giant company will actually behave, given its size. At the smaller firm they may actually see you as a person, not a checklist of race / gender, and treat you well on that basis since you are great!
anne-on
How high end is Company B? Is it a name that will get you in the door for future jobs? (I’m thinking a McKinsey type of firm). If you can stick it out for 2-3 years I’d 100% do that – your exit options will be so much better and it can truly change the trajectory for the rest of your career.
Interview help
At what point in the interview process should I disclose that my last job before my current one was with my husband’s small business? (Now closed.) In my current job I only disclosed it when asked for references, and gave our clients names instead of my husband. This time around I’m wondering if that is still ok. If it matters, my job before husband’s business and my current job are the bright and shiny ones I refer to most in interview scenario questions.
Anon
I’m unqualified to answer this, but why do you need to? I just…wouldn’t?
Curious
+1, I have a similar situation and never needed to share.
AnonMom
Perhaps too late to be helpful for your current situation, but for my similar situation, I just have a nondescript note on my resume that “this company was owned and operated by my now-retired father” and then don’t have to worry about it. It has never been a problem and interviewers often thank me for including that detail.
Anonymous
I would not mention it, there is no way for that to be viewed favourably.
Cat
Why not say you worked for the family business (rather than “your husband’s” business)? You could note on your resume something like “Teapots Ltd. (small family business that has since closed) 2015-2018”
Anon
I’m sure there are nuances here that I’m just not appreciating, but I come back to, why?
It sounds like it was a legitimate company, and she had a legitimate role there. As a total outsider to all this, the minute nuances and asterisks are being added, it sounds like for some odd reason she is downplaying the legitimacy of the company and/or role. Or like she’s introducing the idea that the only reason she had the job is because she was married to the owner.
I promise there are plenty of people that have some sort of “consulting” on their resume in some unemployed periods that are much less legitimate than this, and there are no asterisk being introduced. And there are plenty of mediocre white dudes that work for the family business, or got their job at a bigger firm by working for their uncle or dad’s best friend, and they aren’t asterisking any of that.
I mean, if she is directly asked in person more questions about the company or about her reviews while there or something, then yes, absolutely qualify then. I just kind of doubt it gets there? And even if it does, I don’t think it would be seen negatively that she didn’t “disclose” it before that? This isn’t like a regulatory situation we are talking about.
Bonnie Kate
Assuming it was a legit position, I would not disclose it at all. Granted I am biased as most of my professional career has been working at my FIL’s family business (and my husband is the VP, so technically right above me if we had a hierarchy but we definitely function more as an executive committee). I have zero qualms about it being a family business whatsoever, because I am confident that my contributions have been key to building a great business, I have great external relationships with clients and vendors, and industry awards I could point to… so yes I would use the client references, and if you have shiny accomplishments at the family business I wouldn’t purposefully not talk about them just because it was a family business.
Interview help
Thank you all for the advice! Much appreciated. I think I will not disclose then and offer clients as references if needed.
Teen Vogue
Does anyone else feel a little bad for Alexi McCammond? Idk while what she did was certainly wrong I think it’s a bit sociopathic to ruin someone’s career for tweets they made as a teenager. I think it’s even creepier people dug up things that had been long deleted.
Anon
My understanding is that her staff-to-be revolted. Management was OK with it and knew about that. Let that sink in for a bit.
And I think that the tweets were recently-deleted. Not long-ago deleted.
Anon
Yeah I think it’s creepy and that the purity test on the left are going to backfire and that they are fundamentally anti-liberal (small L). What she did was wrong but I believe that people can evolve and change that they should not be defined by a single negative incident. However, teen vogue is kind of garbage now anyway so I don’t really care if they sink themselves.
Anonymous
Yes I think it’s really atrocious
Cb
I think it’s a really tricky one, but can see from the Teen Vogue staff perspective. The whole premise of the magazine is that teenagers are socially conscious, responsible citizens (plus fashion and beauty content). The argument of “she was just a teenager” doesn’t fly in that case.
Anon
That’s actually a good point I hadn’t thought about.
Anon
+1. Normally I’d be more inclined to excuse teenaged behavior, but when working for a magazine for teenagers, that excuse doesn’t work very well.
No Problem
That’s a good point, but I also think it’s a cautionary tale that could be explored in the magazine. Like about how norms change, and teens nowadays will probably be mortified in 10 or 20 years by some things they say or do tomorrow. I know back when I was a teen it was common to call someone or something the R-word instead of silly or stupid, and now I’m mortified I ever did. But that was accepted language among my peers and none of us thought it was bad.
Anon.
I see your point, but in this case she used slurs against Asian people. I’m her age. That was not okay when we were teens.
good luck
Yes, I really agree with this.
It looks really bad that this was what she was posting as a teenager, particularly in the current climate.
Anonymous
Unforgivability is a key component of this variety of woke culture. No amount of apologizing or personal growth would ever be enough.
Anon
+1. This is an example of woke culture eating its own.
Anon
I don’t think it’s “creepy” to dig up old tweets, that happens to basically every high profile person, but I tend to agree with you that the firing was disproportionate to the tweets, especially considering she was only 17 when she made them. I will definitely be reminding my daughter about this incident when she’s in high school to let her know that any stupid sh1t she tweets as a teenager can come back to haunt her if she’s in any kind of public-facing role. Alexi’s BF is the Biden staffer who was fired for abusing a reporter who was writing about their relationship, and he also has stage 4 lung cancer so, man, that couple is really having a rough year.
anon
I kind of feel this way too. She was 17 at the time. In her apology, she seemed to take full responsibility for her actions. I’d feel differently if she had been a full-fledged adult when she made those comments.
Anon
If this is the only person who catches fall-out for memorializing anti-Asian sentiments, that would be what is unfortunate. OTOH, she is not vile like NYC’s current governor (or even like Virginia’s governor with his adult blackface). And NYC’s mayor thinks that some schools are problematic because they let in too many Asian kids, which I guess it is still OK to voice. So I’m sorry that the only person catching fallout is a woman while worse bad behavior is still OK from men old enough to know better.
Anonymous
I actually agree with this. It seems like the woman with the most questionable case is getting the harshest punishment. I think so many young people still view women as a soft target. Even when men say things that the woke mob disapproves of, they reserve the harshest online abuse for women, every time.
anon
In the book So You’ve Been Publicly Shamed, Jon Rosen interviews a bunch of people in the aftermath of their being “canceled.” One of my take-aways from the book was that women who are publicly shamed face much harsher consequences than men, and have a harder time coming back from them. And long-term, women who called out men for sh*tty behavior faced far more severe consequences than the men they called out. (For example, he interviewed Adria Richards.)
As a side note, the book is FAR from perfect, and I found Rosen to be overly sympathetic with the people he interviewed, but it is a thought-provoking book.
Lily
No one thinks schools “let in too many Asian kids,” that is ridiculous. There is obviously a problem when Black and Hispanic kids are so egregiously underrepresented at the top schools compared with the demographics of the city as a whole. That would still be a problem even if the Asian kids’ spots were instead occupied by White kids.
Anon
I think if a school is occupied by too many of the “wrong” children and you can see the makeup of those children, you can see who the wrong ones are. And I don’t think he meant the white kids, TBH. Just like the Georgia shooter shot mainly Asian women, but wasn’t meaning to commit a hate crime against Asians (but maybe yes on women). He doesn’t get to decide what his acts mean. Ditto the mayor: I know what his words mean.
Anon
Huh? PLENTY of people in this country think that.
Panda Bear
Right – wasn’t there just (OK maybe a year or two ago) a big Harvard admissions case about exactly this, that they were admitting too many Asian students?
Anonymous
Kind of. I think the case was brought by Asian students saying they were being discriminated against by the schools, who were rejecting qualified Asian students to admit a more diverse group.
Anon
The mayor and plenty of other people definitely think there are too many Asian kids in these schools, and lots of other places, and it’s incredibly racist.
Source: went to one of these schools, so I follow this closely.
Anon
I think there is a set age of people who only just barely grew up with technology and are learning the consequences of it as adults. I am too old to have done so (mainstream social media sites didn’t exist until I was out of college) and current kids seem quite savvy about what the internet remembers.
That said, I would never have been allowed unfettered access to something like Twitter as a teen. I wasn’t even allowed a pager. Kids who are involuntary online (though insta-happy parents) are going to have a hell of a time navigating adulthood. Can you imagine your interviewer being able to find baby pics of you in the bathtub?
Anon
She was in college, so I think it’s a little weird to say she shouldn’t have had unfettered access to social media. My parents were super overprotective, but I still had unlimited access to social media (and the internet in general) in college because how can your parents possibly control it at that point?
Anonymous
I’m the same age as Alexi so I had access to MySpace, Facebook etc long before woke culture existed and the ramifications of giving teens smartphones was really assessed. Like most teenagers I was an idiot, but at least most of my communication were on BBM so I think that’s dead now. It still worries me something might surface even though I scrubbed the internet as thoroughly as I could and haven’t posted in 5 years.
Anon
I think it’s awful. I try so hard to do all the right things, educate myself on unconscious bias… yet I still did things when I was young that are now really cringeworthy. Luckily social media didn’t exist then.
Even in current times, the meaning of something changes really quickly. For example, when COVID wasn’t yet known and was just a bad flu in China “Kung flu” seemed like a funny turn of phrase. Once it became a world wide pandemic and even before when it began killing people in China, it wasn’t something to joke about, or blame the Chinese for.
Saying Kung Flu today means something very different than saying it in Jan/Feb 2020.
The people that scour social media make no such distinction.
good luck
Actually, it doesn’t. That’s the kind of thing that you should not say regardless. And I’m a little surprised you can’t see that.
And I’m actually a middle aged tired of the woke culture backlash against our own etc…
Anon
+1 I am also a middle aged tired-of-woke-culture-extreme-backlash for things that happened long ago, and Anon while I hear the general sentiment of what you are saying, I would caution using this example in real life to people. I can’t imagine it was a great look even then. By the time we (the US) had heard of it it had definitely started killing people, and was actually maybe thought to be even more deadly than we know it to be now.
Anon
Uhhh Kung Flu was hella racist in January 2020. And it started killing people in China in December 2019, which is why it’s called Covid-19. No one had even heard of it before it began killing people in China (there were deaths before the virus was identified, when it was still just vaguely identified as a SARS-like virus), so I don’t know what “when it began killing people in China, it wasn’t something to joke about” means.
anon
Yeah I’m shocked anyone ever thought Kung Flu was an acceptable thing to say. Yikes.
Anon
Bad example then. I was trying to think of things that change meanings not just over the long term but also the short term. Like when you watch an SNL skit from something that didn’t age well but isn’t particularly old.
Anon.
Yeah, you don’t have standing to make that point anymore.
Anonymous
Kung flu never sounded ok and was always super racist and ignorant
Anonymous
I did until I read the tweets and saw how old she was. She was in college. And it wasn’t just one tweet.
Anon
This isn’t entirely related to that, but I recently purchased Sex and the City on DVD because I think that shows like that could get canceled for jokes that “didn’t age well.” There seems to be an increasing trend to reach back into the past and “cancel“ things based on one or two instances of offensive behavior. I absolutely think we should talk about those instances, but I am not a fan of getting people fired or not even being open to discussion about art, books, and media.
Anon
Are you seriously concerned about not being able to watch SATC reruns on tv? Like, it deserves to be in syndication forever, no matter how tastes or sensibilities change?
Anon
I love SATC and want to be able to watch it whenever I want, so yes, I believe that I need to own it myself rather than rely on the whims of streaming services. Similarly, when I read a book I love, I buy the hard copy so I can read it again and not deal with it going of print due to others’ preferences. This isn’t hard to understand.
anonshmanon
eh, it’s not impossible that it’ll stop being broadcast at some point, not because it officially gets cancelled in a big storm of rage, but tastes change in a more general sense, and also more tv is being produced constantly. Tons of old tv shows don’t run anymore, it’s always been this way. If SATC is near and dear to anon’s heart (we all have a soft spot for some show or other), why not stash a copy? Other than the fact that many of us don’t own a device which can play shiny discs anymore.
Kitten
I’m uncomfortable with writing people off as “rascist” and doling out disproportionate punishments. Most people have unconscious biases and it’s something that needs to be open for discussion as we learn and improve ourselves. Are this woman’s remaining coworkers “less rascist” than her? probably not, they just don’t have problematic tweets from when they were teens. Of course it’s different if you are consciously rascist and pursuing a rascist agenda, but I don’t see evidence of that. Nobody learned anything here except to delete old tweets (and even that may not be enough). An apology should have sufficed in my opinion, as well as pointing out that she already knew it was wrong and deleted them so as not to bring further attention or cause anyone any unnecessary pain. What was the intention behind digging them up exactly?
Anonymous
I think whomever did this clearly intended to ruin her life and they were successful. Its so sad.
Anon
Did what? She did this. She wrote the tweets.
Anonymous
I hope you were perfect at 17 too.
Anon
Major sideeye at your spelling and subtext. If you think being racist is such a joke, just be direct about it.
For those who don’t know, that spelling is used by conservatives who think that they called racist all the time and that it’s therefore meaningless. It’s dismissive and passive-aggressive.
Kitten
Sorry that was unintentional. But that is good to know and your point still stands, thanks for pointing it out.
Jen
+100000
anonshmanon
Whenever we have these discussions and it turns to how the punishment is disproportionate, that’s where you lose me. Jobs with a lot of influence are not merely a way to make a living, but also a privilege, whether it’s editing a magazine that thousands of influenceable teenagers read or representing thousands of people in Congress. This brings up memories of when we discussed whether not bestowing a lifelong position in the most powerful court in the world would constitute ruining a person’s life.
Kitten
That’s a good point, this particular job is a position of influence and fairly high profile. Very different than firing some average joe from his accounting job.
anon
It took until 2019 for her to apologize. 2019 was a milisecond ago. Took WAY TO LONG for that to happen IMO
Seventh Sister
In these situations, I always wonder whether there are other things that aren’t public that lead to these resignations or dismissals. It could just be racist tweets, or it could also be other stuff that won’t ever see the light of day.
Also I think that brands like this are vulnerable to losing younger readers unless they look appropriately anti-racist, but don’t want to dismiss powerful, long-established editors who have consistently made them money over decades (e.g., Wintour).
Anon
I was wondering if there is any good published research on how transmit-able COVID is if the sick person is wearing a mask and the other people are wearing masks. I know of annecdata (sick hairstylists in masks, no clients getting sick, etc.), but is there any real research (not that you could really ethically test this, just something maybe where the knowns and unknowns are quantified more than a news story)?
We’re still masked in my state and my area is pretty compliant. People are getting vaccinated, so now that we may be doing back to school (maybe 50% of teachers are 50% vaccinated), I am wondering what might happen if you might put a sick masked person in a room with maybe 10 people in masks. [Restaurants are a wild card, but no one is forcing indoor dining on anyone. It’s just that out household exposure is going up, so a kid or us may be the people who are cautious but don’t know the risk we bring with us into the world.]
Cb
Mask compliance is probably 90% on buses and in shops here. I heard someone coughing behind me on the bus today and wondered whether the masks would protect everyone if it was covid versus just allergies or a lingering cold.
Anon
It’s pretty widely accepted as low risk if everyone is masked, but I don’t know any peer-reviewed studies. There has been a lot written about the lack of outbreaks in schools though, and that’s our anecdotal experience (~150 total positive cases, zero classroom transmission). My husband works in public health and is convinced indoor masked activities are safer than outdoor unmasked activities (unless you can maintain a lot of distance during the outdoor activity) so we’ve done no outdoor dining this year but have done some stuff indoors if everyone is required to have a mask, like haircuts and trips to the public library and aquarium. A lot of our friends think this is very weird, but he maintains the data supports it.
Anon
Fairly sure there are no studies and definitely no RCTs. But the best place to look is the incidence of COVID in healthcare professions. They are masked and the patients are masked when possible. In a brief scan of the literature, it looks like HCP are more likely to have contracted COVID19 than non-HCP. The incidence in RNs was higher than in other groups (they have much, much more patient contact). But these patients are sicker, the contact is longer and more intimate than what would likely happen in other situations. The overall consensus it masks work but are not perfect.
Anon
My sense is that that is right, but based on dentists / hygienists, who aren’t around known sick people (but some may be unknowingly sick and they are *unmasked*). I think that in a general slice of the population, the masks (which may be doubled, buttressed by a face shield, include N-95s) work even when in very close proximity to an unmasked sick person.
IRL, you are probably not that close to a person and not for very long (maybe similar to kids eating lunch for 15 minutes with masks off). So probably OK if you are good about masks and really probably OK if that is mutual among people in the general area (grocery store, school bus, etc.).
Anon
There have been a bunch of studies published on how much different masks affect particle/droplet release and spread to others, which is certainly related to how likely people are to get infected, but a lot also depends on how much virus the sick person is shedding, exactly how well their mask fits, how much they’re talking, how air is flowing, and how vulnerable the other people are to infection (we don’t really know what an infectious dose is for anyone, much less how it varies from person to person, plus it is likely lower for some of the new variants, which might also be shed in larger numbers from people’s noses). The numbers I’ve seen are that both people being masked would cut down the amount of particles inhaled by between 50 and 90% (depending on mask type and particle size), which is likely enough to prevent infection in many cases where exposure is fairly brief or with decent air circulation, but less likely to work if you’re together for a long time with little air flow.
Anonymous
There are still a lot of variables in schools, e.g., how many people are in the room, how old are they, and what is the ventilation like? I’m in NYC and our son has been in hybrid school all year, and there is growing evidence that schools are not driving spread. Ours are very strict about masks, distancing and reduced capacity, and theoretically have improved ventilation. I’ll try to find links to studies.
Anonymous
https://ny.chalkbeat.org/2021/3/10/22324285/experts-say-nycs-school-closure-policy-is-very-conservative-as-new-research-on-covid-spread-emerges – this references a study published recently in Pediatrics
Anonymous
I don’t know the stats (does anyone?), but anecdotally, my parent got the virus under these circumstances. But then my other parent (less exposure to the initial carrier) never gor it.
anon
Any recommendations for a good end-of-day facial cleanser? I’ve been feeling like my standby is too drying now that I’ve hit 40. I use Cerave in the morning, but it’s terrible at getting rid of makeup residue, so I avoid it for evening use. My skin sensitive, on the dry/combo side. Rosacea is under control, but fragrance is a big trigger, which eliminates a lot of cleansers.
Cb
I like cleansing balms for this. I used the body shop one, but swapped to the beauty pie and really like it.
Anon
I double cleanse with Hada Labo oil and Cera Ve Hydrating, or use the oil alone when I’m feeling abnormally dry. It rinses clean without much effort.
Cleansing oils and balms are great for soothing dry skin, but I find a lot of them difficult to rinse out of my hair line unless I get in the shower, which is a pain because then my dry curly hair suffers. For me, a formula that rinses clean easily at the sink is the priority.
busybee
I like Paula’s Choice Optimal Results Hydrating Cleanser. I also have dry sensitive skin.
Anon
You need to double cleanse if you want to take off makeup. A balm or an oil for removing makeup, followed by a regular gentle cleanser.
pugsnbourbon
What about using an oil balm, then the cerave?
anon
That’s probably what I should do. I’m just lazy and have only half-heartedly gotten on the double cleansing bandwagon.
Anon
I’ll use a makeup wipe and then cleanser when I’m lazy.
Anonymous
I have similar skin and the squalane cleanser from the Ordinary seems to work well for me.
anon
I use the oil cleansing method with jojoba oil (Trader Joe’s) or olive oil from the kitchen. Rub it on, then use a damp warm washcloth to “steam” your face and gently wipe off most of the residue. It’s a different feeling than washing with a cleanser but I find it much less drying. I guess you could also follow up with a cleanser if you didn’t like the oil feeling, but I don’t. I tried a store-bought “double cleanse” product once (Pixi) and it was expensive, stung my eyes, and I personally didn’t see any benefit that I can’t get from my cheap Trader Joe’s oil.
Cat
I use a soft washcloth rather than rely on the soap alone.
Marie
I use Clinique Take the Day Off for make up removal and then Cetaphil face wash to wash off any make up/make up remover residue. Both are gentle enough on my sensitive skin. I have also used Clinique foaming face wash for the second step instead of Cetaphil.
RR
I love cleansing balms. I’m using Farmacy Green Clean, but I think there are great less spendy options too. I’ll probably try one of those when this one runs out. I’ve also really enjoyed the Shisheido cleansing oil.
RR
Should add that I combine the cleansing balm with a makeup eraser and then use micellar water to make sure all makeup is off. I’ve used a few micellar waters–the Garnier sensitive skin one, a Lancome one (my favorite) and currently some mushroom based one in a green bottle from Sephora that I don’t like.
Anon
Dr. Dennis Gross Hyaluronic Marine Meltaway Cleanser – its amazing.
Anonymous
I think maybe a micellar water might be an everyday good solution for you, with an additional cleansing balm if you have a very full-on makeup day. I find Cerave very drying, btw, also sensitive rosacea skin (but dehydrated rather than dry).
Bioderma has a fragrance free one that’s okay for my skin, at least, but I actually like the cheapo pink Garnier one best. Remember to shake the bottle.
anon
An elderly family friend has started hinting about giving me (and DH) their home. This would be life changing for my family. It is in a great area and excellent school district. But, before I start dreaming of the future, what are some things to consider? Something like this just never happens in my family so I have no idea how to start.
Anon
Hmm do they have any family? Would said family be offended and or pursue some kind of estate litigation after the fact saying you coerced them/they weren’t of sound mind when giving you the house? Or do you mean they’re gifting you a house NOW not in a will decades from now?
nuqotw
It sounds like you would own the home free and clear with no mortgage. Can you otherwise afford the carrying expenses – taxes, maintenance, utilities, water, HOA fees if any, insurance?
Anonymous
A family friend is consider just giving you potentially their most valuable asset? I’d run screaming who can afford to do that?
Anon
Eh, an old person who needs to move into assisted living and has no children who want the property? It’s incredibly generous, but I’ve heard of similar things happening and “run screaming” seems like a really over the top reaction.
Anon
Why? My husband and I have no kids, our nieces and nephews will be well taken care of and I’m quite close to the children of a few friends. We would absolutely potentially leave our home to one of them.
anon
This may be too obvious, but make sure to get the title changed. In New Orleans, after Katrina, a lot of people were screwed because families had handed down houses informally, and the current owners/occupants couldn’t prove good title. Check mortgage records to make sure there’s no lien on the house, and tax records to make sure taxes are all paid up. You may want to have a contractor look over the house to make sure you’re aware of any structural issues or huge upcoming expenses (but if you want to sell, that may be something you have to disclose, so think that one through). Figure out what the tax and insurance will cost to make sure you can afford to keep the house.
anon
edit to add–All of these things are for when your elderly relative moves from dropping hints to a more concrete plan!
Flats Only
I agree. If this gift does take place, perhaps do the transaction as a sale for $10 or something, and go through the usual due diligence you would for a sale, with you paying anything the “seller” normally would. That should make sure the title is done properly, and you’re aware of any issues with the property (from the inspection) and the general value of the property (from the appraisal). And also see what you can find out about the family friend’s situation in terms of their estate, heirs, etc. It would suck if an estranged child or spouse popped out of the woodwork after they die and tried to take the house. At lease you can be in a position to know who is out there.
Anon
I’m sure this is implied in your comment, but I would double check with professionals (tax, real estate, attorneys) before doing a sale for $10 or whatever. I can think of a myriad of reasons off the top of my head that that could have negative repercussions and this isn’t even my line of work. There must be some formal way in OP’s state to transfer a house to a family member, I would follow whatever that dictates.
LaurenB
I don’t believe it to be legal to sell a house for a nominal sum like that. Otherwise every rich person would “sell” their homes, cars, etc to relatives for nominal sums, claim poverty and go on Medicaid. Please check with legal counsel in your area.
Anon
Don’t count on it until it’s actually happening! People change their minds.
Anonymous
+1. It’s a nice thought, but it’s not in writing and not confirmed happening.
AnonInfinity
Right! Don’t plan anything until it actually happens. Even if it’s in writing in a will because people can and do change their minds. Literally just plan your life as if this will never happen.
Anon
Gift tax issues, can you afford the property taxes, in my city, we rezone for schools every 10 years, what is the deferred maintenance like, will there be a “I need to live there” or I need to sell at a discount to you to get *some* money out of it. Where will this person life if not in her/his home and how will that person fund it? Also, is there person all there and do they have kids who might challenge this? Also, do they own the house free and clear? You may need to take over the mortgage.
NYCer
Gift tax is payable by the donor, so that would not be OP’s concern. In any event, the gift/estate tax exclusion is still very high ($11.7 million currently, though Biden is trying to lower it), so unless the elderly family friend is very wealthy and/or the house is extremely valuable, gift tax is likely not going to be a concern.
OP, if your friend gives you the house during his/her lifetime, your basis in the property will be equal to their basis (which could be very low depending on when they purchased the house). If they were to give you the house at death, you would receive a stepped up basis (equal to FMV at their death). This is a bigger concern if you plan to sell the house any time soon, as your gain would obviously be larger if your basis is lower, but it is something to think about regardless.
anon
Get an agreement in writing and with the help of a lawyer so there is a record if something goes wrong. Is this an estate or inheritance situation or would you be moving into their house while they are still alive? Hints are not going to make this deal happen. You need to have all the talks to understand exactly what their offer is, and the implications of it, good, bad, or ugly. Is it this truly a gift, is it an offer to buy the house from them directly, will they have expectations of you to repay them in a non monetary form, etc.
Hints and offers means nothing unless you have it in writing and the agreement can be upheld in court.
Cb
I don’t know, I feel like family and money is so, so messy. I’d try and put it out of your mind until your relative does more than drops hints. My sister in law promised some financial help when we were ready to move and my husband and I agreed to make decisions on the assumption that no money would be forthcoming. She passed before we moved and I can’t imagine going to her widowed husband to ask, although my mother-in-law wanted us too.
Vicky Austin
This. Nothing is certain except death and taxes (which are both uniquely likely to mess this up for OP). I wouldn’t make any decisions based on this.
Blueberries
I agree with Cb. Also, unless this person has enormous wealth, the value of the house may be needed to pay for care as the person ages.
Anon
What will life be like in a neighborhood where everyone is much wealthier than you? I’m not someone who really cares about keeping up with the Joneses, but I know a lot of people do, and I’ve heard from people who’ve had family help to buy much more house than they could have afforded on their own that it’s hard for their kids to have so much less than all their classmates. It’s not quite the same situation, but I know my SIL had a very difficult time at a private school in NYC that her parents had taken out loans to pay for, because she had classmates whose parents were not only paying for school easily out of pocket but were taking them on trips to Europe five times a year, buying them the latest designer handbags etc. Just something to think about, since no one else has mentioned.
Anon
Since she mentioned excellent public schools, I doubt this is a mansion or that there will be an issue of the haves and have nots in a public school – the richest send their kids to private school.
good luck
Not true. The best public schools in our area are in the richest suburbs. That is one of the selling points. Especially true in the McMansion suburbs.
good luck
I need to ask – giving it to you when she passes, or giving it to you while you she is still alive? Why give it now? Is she planning to downsize?
You never know when someone will pass, and you never know if things will work out. Maybe she lives another decade and the house has to go towards paying for 24hr care or a nursing home.
Is she extremely wealthy? In other words, wealthy enough to pay for her care for the rest of her life, even if she gives you the house now? If you wont receive it until she passes, you certainly should not count on it and live your life as if you wont get it.
And if she is suggesting a (sneaky….) gift of the house to you now so that she WONT have to use it to pay for her long term care needs, hoping that she will outlive the 5 year medicaid look back… well, even though this may be legal I think it is unethical. I do not want to pay for your elderly relatives end of life health care needs via Medicaid so you can live in a nicer house for free. And if you take the risk and move in now before the 5 year look back expires and she runs out of money for her own care you will have to give the house back.
AnonInfinity
Right! And even if it’s out of the lookback period, this sounds like a very expensive house. I would feel AWFUL if an elderly friend had to go to a less-nice nursing home because she did not have the option of selling a big asset to use for her own care in a nicer facility. My mother had to go to a less-nice nursing home because she had no assets (and not from anything shady…) and had to go on Medicaid, and I’d have been livid if I’d found out she could have gone somewhere nicer by selling her house that she gave to someone else.
Anon
Does cooking vegetables somehow reduce or change their fiber content? As I’ve hit my 40s, I find I need more fiber to stay regular. Thing is I eat a ton of vegetables that do nothing for me — but I tend to eat them cooked like Indian food, so very very cooked. Yet when I eat vegetables that are barely stir fried or eat fruit (obviously raw), I feel like I got the fiber I needed. Does cooking somehow change/reduce the fiber?
Curious
Not sure about fiber, but I find the enzymes in raw veg necessary to keep my digestion on track. Could be that?
anon
I dont have the answer to your actual question, but I am the same age and my doctor recently recommended eating 30 grams of fiber a day. I am a vegetarian and eat lots of beans and salads, but when I actually counted what i was eating, I was not even close to 30 grams a day. So, now i eat a high fiber cereal (17 grams) in the morning to get a good start. Then, I have a salad with beans on top for lunch and fruits and veggie snacks. Its been difficult to hit that 30 mark everyday.
Anonymous
Try chia seeds if you haven’t already. They pack in so much fiber. I prefer them in smoothies.
Anonymous
Yes cooking breaks down fibre. The heat is doing some of the ‘digestion’ which would normally fall on your body. FWIW I find beans, legumes, pulses etc to be ideal sources of fibre
Anon
I personally have to limit fiber since my issue is dysmotility, which fiber worsens. But I still appreciate the enzymes in raw vegetables. I try to eat a mix of raw, fermented and live, fermented and cooked, and cooked vegetables. So I second Curious’s suggestion that maybe it’s the enzymes. As for fiber, my understanding is that cooking does break down the fiber somewhat, but it’s still there. But it makes sense to me that it may behave differently in the cooked form.
question for NY posters
I have an unavoidable trip for a family situation, and I need to book a car service from JFK to New Jersey. Does anyone have any recommendations for a service they would recommend who is taking the maximum COVID precautions?
Cat
I don’t know that it’s going to vary much by company – personally would use whatever company you normally would, assuming they meet basic standards like drivers being masked, and keep the windows cracked for the ride.
question for NY posters
Thanks! I have not used a car service in the NY area since around 1989 on a childhood family vacation, so I guess I’ll amend to just–anyone have a reputable car service to recommend? I’ve had issues with Uber/Lyft with NYC airports because drivers don’t want to drive to NJ and call, ask where you are going, and then cancel without picking you up. So I am going with a service because I really need to get where I am going.
Hildy J.
Carmel is one of the biggest, been around the longest, presumably would be one of the ones with the most to lose from screwing up something like this?
NYCer
I have used Carmel a few times during the pandemic and have had good experiences. Some (not all) of the drivers have installed plastic shields between the driver and the passengers, and everyone (of course) was wearing masks.
That being said, I think any car service will likely be fine, including Uber or Lyft.
Anon
If you are super concerned could you rent a car?
Anonymous
GEM is also good.
Anonymous
I like Carey.
anon4this
We live in NYC suburbs. We have been trying to buy a house right now with little luck, the housing market has gone insane . We are debating just buying a teardown/lot and then building a new house or a fixer upper. Does anyone have experience with this, especially recently? Are there cost premiums now to building?
Anonymous
My BFF did this and the cost of lumber and labor are through the roof. Everyone and their mother is trying to renovate/build right now so there are premium prices and extreme shortages. Think of it this way, all the money people had earmarked for events which never happened or travel is now being spent on renos.
Anon
The cost to build has gone up due to demand and supply price increase (especially lumber). Not in the NYC suburbs but a friend had trouble finding a builder for a project their architect had designed to cost a certain price range – the architect had to call a builder personally for them. I might try to talk to design-build firms to preempt those kinds of issues.
Cat
we are renovating and materials are definitely more expensive than they were last year, but not enough to keep pushing it off.
Anonymous
Building anything is significantly more expensive. The fence panels we didn’t get around to buying last summer were $75 and they are now $130.
Lilau
Keep in mind that builders and contractors and tradespeople are also incredibly busy right now. And the wait for things like appliances is very long. I’m not sure waiting for the market to cool down would be less efficient than trying to build/renovate right now, if that’s your primary motivation.
Anonymous
There are currently materials premiums; the storm shut down plastics production and PVC pipe is on delay. However, by the time you get through finding your design and build team members, get permitted and break ground, things will have settled down.
Bonnie Kate
This is a good point. That beginning stuff will take quite a bit longer than you anticipate. Here’s how long it took us:
Drawings: 3 months working directly with an architect. I had the floor plan all drawn out before we went to him.
Land clearing (we have 7 acres fully wooded lot, so driveway and house lot and fence line needed to be cleared): 3 months of DH working weekends. Probably 1-2 weeks if we hired it out and spent $$$$ doing so.
Getting builder, HVAC, plumbing quotes: 3 months; that’s with me following up regularly. I built my own source list for bathroom fixtures, lighting, and DH is a Master Electrician and did all of that himself.
Bank loan application process: 6 months. This delayed our build from end of 2019 to 2020 because by the time the loan was ready, it was almost winter. Had to wait to restart the process since the loan can’t sit open for more than 90 days. Ended up timing it a little late, so caused another delay in the spring. Our loan officer was a younger newer person to construction loans; that didn’t help. Also had a bad appraisal for the construction loan that messed things up for about 6 weeks.
Permits: 2 Months. Several back and forth b/w architect and inspector, and finally had to follow up personally and got remaining issues resolved in a day…
Waiting for contractors once we finally got the permit: 1 month. Could have been 2 months, but got lucky with our concrete guy having an opening earlier.
2017 Bonnie Kate would look at above and think she is a great project manager, she can definitely shave time off of all of that. Bank applications and contractor quotes? that’s just paperwork, easy to do if you stay on top of it. 2021 Bonnie Kate knows that even with someone staying right on top of it and making it basically her part time job to project manage the whole thing through, it just takes a really long time when you’re working with so many other people.
Anon
I probably have no business responding to this, but eh, it’s Friday and I have thoughts. I’ve lived in the Bay Area and have for decades. The last decade I have spent in two separate very hot single family home markets of the Area and lots of blood, sweat and tears putting offers out there and getting rejected (but also ultimately accepted), and thinking about remodels as part of the process.
At least for here, my casual observation has been that a “fixer upper” in these areas only makes sense if: 1) you are personally a builder/contractor that essentially flips houses for a living and can do a lot of the work yourself, or at a timely and reasonable rate with people you have existing business relationships that have an incentive to work with you. Literally hearing of these folks bringing in laborers from an hour away from here every day to make it cost efficient, which you and I can’t really do for our onesie twosie high touch remodel. Or 2) money is not the object, but rather you have a specific location & general structure that is your ideal and you want to make it your own, regardless of the cost.
My observation would be that regular people who try to buy a fixer upper to overall purely save money vs. what they would pay for a non-fixer likely do not come out ahead. Probably b/c the fixer uppers don’t even sell for that much of a discount here given the professionals in bucket 1 are able to bid it up a bit & still turn a profit given their unique ability to efficiently work on it.
We once got some bids to do an addition to our last house several years ago, and we were getting bids for the same cost per square foot as what the cost per square foot would be to just buy a regular house in our area at the time. In other words, it didn’t make financial sense unless it was purely b/c we wanted to stay in the exact location.
So what can you do with this information, given you aren’t in the Bay Area? Try your best to find what an actual, current price per square foot remodel cost people are paying (post-COVID and everything). Maybe Nextdoor would be your friend here. (Note our architect underestimated what it would be by half, so try either a contractor or a homeowner well into the process). When you are looking at a fixer upper, try your best to think about how much would need the remodel and add that cost per square foot to the cost per square foot you need to pay just to get the actual house. Figure out if that total is even less than what you need to pay to get a non-fixer upper by maybe bumping up your budget if you are able. Maybe – hopefully for your sake – the math still works favorably for you there, if you are willing to put the time and energy into this and can find the people to do it.
Maybe this will prove to be more short term in NYC suburbs than it has been here, but if it being as hot as it is here is a somewhat recent development, thought I would share my observations from a long term hot home market observer. Good luck!
Bonnie Kate
We just built – construction finished in January. We’re still landscaping (snow is melting! dog is covered in sand/mud daily yay!) and building out the basement. So this topic is fresh for me!
We got lucky and we had started and all our pricing locked in prior to the big jumps in price – but prices did significantly jump. For example our builder told us that one month after our engineered trusses were ordered they doubled in price. A couple times during the process we were talking and he shared how high prices were right now on everything (he owns a lumber yard as well) I heard from a few clients who were planning on building that their builders told them price increases of 30-40%. Supply chains are really breaking down right now too; I’m a PM in industrial type projects and since the beginning of the year lead times have gotten crazy for parts that should be in stock. While not the same, I am sure residential supplies are similar.
Having purchased two houses (albeit I was never in a crazy house market) and now built one, the building process is SO MUCH LONGER than buying. It took a year longer than we anticipated (two years total – one year prior to COVID). We went the custom route and were very, very involved – but our end home is really awesome. But I wouldn’t recommend it to anyone who doesn’t genuinely want to build. Whatever the amount of money you think it will take, you should probably double. Whatever the amount of time you think it will take, you should probably triple. Whatever the amount of effort on your part you think it will take, you should probably quadruple.
That said, we didn’t do it through a developer or a prefab builder; those would be ways to make it easier on yourself and faster. We did get a quote on a prefab, and it cost the same as what our custom home ended up costing – but our custom build has way more value.
Construction loans are a whole beast to navigate. That part isn’t even done yet – we’ll close on our mortgage next month. Lots of time, lots of paperwork. Multiple appraisals because the first one was crap – second one appraised something like $80k higher. Lots of anxiety about whether we were going to end up with a second mortgage on top of the first one on our new home. So frustrating. It’s all good now.
Like I said, I’ve never had to buy in a crazy market, but I cannot imagine a scenario where tearing down and building is going to be faster or less expensive. And stress-level, I bet it is a different kind of stress but probably about the same amount of stress as putting in all the offers on home after home until you get one.
Just my two cents though. I could talk about this for a long time!