Thursday’s Workwear Report: Button Knit Cardigan

386 Comments

1. I could use some advice on a recent interaction during a meal with the executive I ultimately report into but don’t know well. Each time I asked a question (normal conversation questions like where are you from), instead of a direct answer I would get a five minute monologue in corporate speak. He didn’t reciprocate much, and he also paused the conversation multiple times to text. I tend to be awkward so I prepare by making sure I’m ready to engage and have topics to discuss. That approach usually works, but I left this meeting feeling like I did not impress him or make a connection. Is there a better way to handle this type of personality? And if we don’t connect am I doomed? For what it’s worth I’ve seen him act this way in a group setting as well, so maybe I’m overthinking it.

   1. To be blunt, I’m guessing you’re right that you didn’t impress him or make a connection with him. The type of personality you’re describing probably doesn’t connect well with nervous women employees a couple levels below him on the org chart. This has nothing to do with you, and everything to do with who he is.

      I can’t tell you the number of CEO type men I’ve chatted with who simply had no grid for making a connection with someone like me. They just don’t see me. I’m not an attractive polished woman of the kind they would encounter socially, and i’m not the easy, laughing male counterpart they’d play golf with or make sports talk with.

   2. Do you work at SpaceX? :-)

      1. This made me LOL. No, but now that I think about it I can see some similarities.

         1. I saw some similarities when reading your description! Does it help at all to think of it as Elon Musk, lite?

   3. He sounds like an @ss. I wouldn’t worry about it too much.

   4. Awkward dude was awkward. Nothing else to this story.

      1. Yeah, I know a number of men in leadership roles who are super awkward and uncomfortable with small talk (and incredibly bad at it!). They mask this with a general authoritative air, so it takes you a bit to realize it’s not you, it’s them.

         1. +1!!

   5. I wouldn’t take it personally. You likely just encountered someone who deems it beneath him to socialize with “the help.” It is possible he felt like you were trying to schmooze him and was slightly annoyed, but I think the former is far more likely.

   6. This is an American white male executive thing, you don’t hold value to him so he didn’t feel it was necessary to put on the charm.

      1. yep. I’ve worked with many MBA bros like this. Super engaged and charming with clients. Couldn’t care less about interactions with me

         1. 100%. Many law firm partners are like this as well. I do think, though, that it’s changing.

      2. +1 this is a him not you problem

   7. This is a him thing, not a you thing. Also my immediate reaction to your description of him was “basic interactions should not be this hard!!!”

      Also, if you don’t connect I wouldn’t say you’re doomed but it may hinder your advancement in that organization, but there are plenty of other teams/orgs to work for.

      1. That’s fair. However, I am up for a promotion in this organization and that was part of the reason for the meeting. I just feel disappointed that it didn’t go as well as I’d like, though I can’t figure out what I could have done differently.

   8. I think this is a him issue and not you. If I were you, I wouldn’t think too much more about it, you’re not going to change him. I hope you at least enjoyed the food if not the company

2. AITA kitchen edition (lol)

   My husband and I are in our late 20s and bought our first house this year. We are interested in redoing the kitchen and went to browse cabinets at a local wholesale store that my employer partners with. The first time we went, we were greeted by the account manager for my company who allowed us to browse independently and get ideas. She sounded very experienced in kitchen design and her Linkedin reflects that. The second time we went a younger guy (around our age) greeted us and ended up writing down our ideas and said he would do a design. Since then he has been just okay to work with. He is slow to respond and I have to keep following up. The design also just seems adequate, very basic without input on how to make things functional or asking if we want to change anything. After almost 2 weeks of not getting a response from him on my last question, I called the store and asked if I could make a design appointment with the first lady. She scheduled that however when I arrived yesterday, she and the guy were sitting next to each other and she essentially said “Because guy here did your design, we’d like you to continue working with him. Is that ok? You’re in good hands.”

   I politely agreed however would strongly prefer to work with someone more experienced for such a big project (20-30k). But he was sitting right there which felt awkward… I assume they work on commission. Thoughts? AITA?

   1. You need to find another vendor.

      1. +1

   2. That would be so awkward that I would go somewhere else even if it costs more. You’re potentially going to have this kithchen for a very long time, and you need to love it. Alternatively, can you hire an outside designer and have this guy convert it to their products? Long story, but we hired an Ikea kitchen planner for not much and ended up having custom cabinets built to her design.

      1. Yeah this is a huge investment of time and money, don’t let them guilt you into accepting subpar service! It comes down to what you feel comfortable with though. If you want to give him another try, you could say that you need him to be more responsive and proactive. (Two weeks for a reply is bananas!) Or ask her to look over the designs and offer feedback to him before he sends you revisions.

         But I’d probably find another vendor at this point, or hire an independent kitchen designer to help you even if you still purchase the cabinets through them.

   3. Oh man, this is so awkward. You are definitely not the AH. If you’re not happy with the service you’re getting, I would consider going elsewhere.

   4. Go elsewhere. It’s clear that you were not happy with him when you reached out to schedule with someone else. also super shady that they didn’t tell you he would be there.

      Do not settle for the mediocre man or a company that prioritizes commission over customer satisfaction.

   5. Go elsewhere and find someone you trust.

      I say this as someone who recently received physical therapy from someone who is so green that the ink on her diploma was still wet when I worked with her. Thing is, she was great *and* the owner of the clinic gave her a lot of guidance. Being new isn’t an excuse to ignore emails and not reach out to higher ups for help.

      1. And on the flip side, I had to “fire” a PT once who was not a good fit for me — he emphasized sports rehab, whereas I needed medically-focused rehab. I ended up switching to another PT in the same practice, with no hard feelings.

         1. I was driving at the idea that there isn’t anything inherently wrong with working with a newbie, provided that the person has appropriate training and the company gives the person appropriate guidance. That guidance doesn’t seem to be happening here.

   6. You basically have the choices at this point. First, you could have a conversation with the manager of the store, explaining your difficulties with the guy and saying that you will only work with the woman going forward. You may or may not get a better result. the guy is probably gonna hate you, but his feelings don’t matter when you’re talking about an expensive remodel. (Don’t be rude, but don’t accept subpar service to spare his feelings.). Second option is going to a new store or paying an independent designer. If you go to this approach, I would still consider telling the manager. If the store never gets feedback, the guy is never gonna get better.

      1. No do not complain to the manager to pressure a woman to work with you after she’s already told/communicated to you “no” twice. If she wanted to work with you she’d be working with you.

   7. NAITA. Email her “Hi, upon further reflection we would like to work with you for our kitchen design. Please let me know if that’s possible.” She asked if it was ok so she should be open to you saying it’s not. If she says no move to another vendor. Kitchen design really matters and you don’t want to spend a ton of money and not be happy.

   8. Yes you are TA. To yourself. For not putting on your big girl pants and saying “actually I would prefer to work with Lauren not Steve thanks”

   9. NTA. I’d suggest emailing the first lady with your request (and rationale) so that the awkwardness of having the other designer hovering around is removed. It may be a behind-the-scenes credit & comp thing that they have to work out.

   10. At this point I would not try to convince the lady to be your designer. She’s already demonstrated that she is not above pulling a bait-and-switch. and that’s not the kind of sales representative or company you want to be dealing with on a very expensive purchase that you’ll be stuck with forever. I would get several competing quotes and pick another vendor.

       1. This is a really good point. And I agree you are NTA.

       2. This seems like a stretch. My read on it is the woman you made the appointment thought you were confused or thought the guy was unavailable. So when he was available it made sense to pair you with him again. She likely didn’t want to take his client and also make you explain your wishes again. Unless you clearly stated you didn’t want to work with the guy I’d assume best intentions and kindly make yourself clear.

       3. Yup. I also wonder if she (or her manager) declined to work with you because of the work connection.

       4. I don’t think it was a bait and switch; I think she was trying not to steal her colleague’s client. That seems imminently reasonable unless OP specifically said she didn’t want to work with him again.

          1. Right but she should have been upfront about that – OP should have been told in advance of the meeting. The bait and switch is the springing it on them unexpectedly at the meeting. That means the person is not a straight shooter.

   11. Nope. Walk away. There are a million Kitchen places.

   12. Take your money elsewhere. It’s your money, you decide who you work with and who you buy from. You’re not there for your kitchen to be some new guy’s practice project.

       Also, I think young women (myself included) try to avoid creating awkward social situations at our own expense. I notice this in myself and I like to think that as we get older, we stop taking crap.

   13. Listen to your gut. Either insist on Experienced Woman or take your business elsewhere.

   14. The first lady doesn’t want to work with you. You’ve asked her twice and she passed you off to a junior colleague twice. You could ask to work with a different junior colleague, but I would not have high hopes that they will be much better.

       Idk why she doesn’t want to work with you. Maybe your project is too small for her. Or maybe your company gets a special price that means that the designer gets paid less. Or maybe she’s too busy. You’ll probably never know the reason but I wouldn’t take it personally.

   15. Go elsewhere. I would have done exactly what you did, and it’s not fair of them to put you on the spot.
       You’re shelling out big bucks. Why would you put up with shoddy service?

3. Husband is a super light sleeper and I snore. It’s gotten worse over the past few months, I’m guessing because of the weather. Anyone have success with wedge pillows or other devices to help reduce snoring?
   I’m in my early 30s and at a slightly higher weight than is ideal which I’m sure is contributing to it.

   White noise and earplugs are out of the question for him. We do have a guest room that he will go in if it is especially bad but that bums me out.

   1. I am a snorer, and a device that works for me is a device called the SnoreRX. You custom fit it using boiling water to your teeth/mouth, and then advance your lower jaw to open your airways. It is very similar to the dental device made for people who have sleep apnea. And, you might want to have a sleep study (consult your PCP) to make sure you do not have sleep apnea. Also, if possible, get your husband to try lots of different earplugs, as that will help him sleep even if you did not snore. It is hard to get enough sleep as a light sleeper. I’ll put the link below to avoid moderation.

      1. https://www.snorerx.com

         And, why is your husband so against earplugs and white noise? Is he on call and has to be wakeable? Otherwise, he is complaining without being part of the solution.

         1. Sorry, but she doesn’t get to demand that her husband sleep with earplugs, which are uncomfortable and ineffective, when she is the problem. She needs to let the poor man sleep in the guest room if he wants to.

         2. Not the OP, but I’ve tried earplugs and my ears didn’t like them (and I’ve tried several). They haven’t silenced the noise and the pressure was distracting to the point of keeping me from sleeping. I have some chronic sinus problems that don’t help with the ear pressure. Problem is usually solved by asking bed partner to flip over (back snoring usually causes the snoring) or sleeping in another room.

      2. I have tried EVERYTHING and just found something that works! It depends on the type of snorer you are, but I got a nasal ablation and now use mouth tape. The ablation was very painful for a few days, but so worth it in the long run. It really opened my nose. The next steps was trying to figure out how to get myself to breathe through my nose,. I bought the vio2 mouth tape and have used it for a few nights, and it seems to do the trick! My ENT said I will eventually learn to breathe through my nose without it.

         The wedge pillow was terrible for me, FWIW. The cpap was too much trouble because I wans’t a terrible snorer, and I just could not sleep with it. The mouth piece was okay but I didn’t love it. So I have literally tried everything and I think finally found my answer, thank God. My husband hasn’t left the room once!

   2. I am in the same boat, it’s really tough. I have tried the SnoreRX mouth guard, but I felt like it put my jaw in a bad position so I don’t like to use it much. I am on the waitlist for a sleep study, but it is several months long. I had a consultation with the sleep study doctor, who told me to lose weight. So I don’t have much advice. I do think avoiding drinking alcohol within a few hours of bedtime has helped.

   3. If white noise and earplugs are out of the question for him then he can sleep in the guest room.

      1. To be fair, she should. She is the one who is disrupting his sleep.

      2. Or the OP could investigate solutions to stop her snoring. Snoring can be related to health issues. Why is it on him to change when she is the root cause of the issue.

         1. Because trying white noise is free.

            1. Seems that he’s already tried it and it wasn’t tolerable.

   4. Do you snore in all positions? Lots of people snore when on their back but not on their side, so if you can stay on your side, that helps. But as a very light sleeper, I’m a big fan of earplugs, white noise, and separate bedrooms!

   5. Get yourself checked for sleep apnea and whether or not you could benefit from a CPAP.

   6. It might be worth getting evaluated for a sleep study/possible sleep apnea if it’s gotten worse recently. Also if it gets worse with drier winter air, does a small humidifier in the room help at all?

   7. Some tough love here. The problem is that you are snoring, not that he can’t tolerate your snoring. If he’s willing to relocate to the guest room you need to stop guilting him about it. If you want him to be able to stay in the same room you need to lose weight, get a sleep study, get any allergies under control, or do whatever you need to do to stop the snoring. It is unfair to demand that he wear earplugs or use white noise. Those don’t work anyway.

      1. +1. “I’ve tried everything except the things that could work (including not guilting your spouse) and I’m all out of ideas”

      2. +1 OP is the problem so it’s on HER to solve the problem, she doesn’t get to have her feelings hurt if DH uses the guest room.

   8. There are these band aid type strips available at any major retailer/pharmacy that go on top of your nose and basically lift the skin up to stop snoring. Sounds weird, but cheap and worth a shot. You’ll want to moisturize well as it’s not a normal place to have repeated bandages, but could be a good stop gap while you await a sleep study etc.

   9. Get a sleep study. I don’t get why people aren’t recognizing this as the health issue it likely is. I have mild apnea and using a Cpap machine is life changing. I have so much more energy, it became a lot easier to lose weight (your hormones get screwed up when you’re not sleeping right), and my mood dramatically improved—and again, that’s with mild apnea. I had no idea how tired I was until I saw the difference. If it goes untreated or ill treated (for example, dental devices are shown to work for only a small percentage of folks), you open yourself to a host of health problems, from high blood pressure to stroke to traffic accident risk to depression. I actually think a large percentage of folks with depression may actually have underlying untreated apnea. Also, weight can be a contributor but it doesn’t have to be. Aging alone can be a contributor or simply length of tongue and shape of mouth. Anyway, off my soap box. I’m just very passionate on this because it has made such a huge difference in my life.

      1. Thank you for reinforcing this.

      2. Can you share more? I am pretty confident I have sleep apnea (and my husband resoundingly thinks I do). But I’ve been putting off dealing with this because the CPAP just seems so awful and idea of it makes me feel old and unattractive. I acknowledge this is stupid but it’s where I’m at and would really benefit from some perspective from people who’ve been down this road.

         1. Do it! My dad found out he had sleep apnea, now uses a CPAP and says he didn’t realize just how tired he had been for so long. Bad sleep causes an enormous cascade of problems for you (and your spouse). Just do it!

         2. I realized that when I was picturing a CPAP, I was picturing the CPAP my dad had back in the 1990s.

            My husband got one last year, and it has been quiet, sleek, unobtrusive, and not a big part of our lives! If anything he seems younger now that he’s more energetic.

            So that is my partner perspective. From the perspective of the person needing the device, I felt just the same way as you feel about this about my mouthguard (but after spending $$,$$$ on new teeth, I am finally taking the bruxism seriously). It makes me feel old and unattractive, and I cried a lot. I don’t have a lot of feelings about it now that I’ve been wearing it at night for a few months; it is boring now. I guess there’s no way not to get old, but I think it’s okay to have feelings about it while still doing the thing!

         3. Is the CPAP sexy? No. Is it needed for a medical condition? Yes. There are so many new versions of a CPAP. This is completely random, but catfishwithketchup on Instagram has a really nice highlight reel on sleep apnea.

         4. Well would you rather BE old and unattractive?

            As untreated sleep apnea is associated with being (and looking…) tired, early aging, high blood pressure, heart attacks, strokes, weight gain, dementia and depression.

            so there’s that

            And it can damage your partner’s sleep, quality of life and their health. So there’s that too..

         5. Thank you – these comments are truly appreciated

   10. Sleep in different rooms! It is so wonderful, truly.

4. My in-laws are very Catholic and my husband and I are not religious. We are currently expecting our first child, and FIL recently asked us whether we plan to baptize. We are leaning toward yes (although not Catholic) because we know how important it is to them, but when we said that he made a comment about “well, you have to mean it.” Which makes me nervous, because we have zero plans to raise our child in the church. For those who are working to have a good relationship with parents/in-laws of differing religious beliefs….how have you navigated these differences while raising a child?

   1. If you have no plans to raise your kid in a church, I kind of agree with your FIL, tbh.

      Although we are churchgoers now, we were unchurched (and not looking) when our kids were born. We ended up baptizing them later, even though that goes against the normal Protestant conventions. So know that’s an option, although I also realize that the Catholic church is big on infant baptism.

      You are under no obligation to follow your ILs religious traditions. You can be respectful of their beliefs without going along with traditions that do not feel right to you.

      1. Editing to add: We did later join a church. Once we had that church community, it felt right to baptize.

   2. No you don’t have to mean it. You get to decide how you navigate this. If you choose to baptize to keep some peace in the family you get to ascribe as much or as little meaning to it as you want.

      1. Actually you do have to mean it. When you have a child baptized you are asked to reaffirm your own faith and to promise to raise the child in Christian community. If you do not intend to raise the child as a Christian and cannot answer the questions and make the various promises truthfully, you should not have the child baptized. The child can always choose to be baptized at a later time.

         1. Eh, plenty of people do it for cultural reasons. I agree that ideally you should mean it, but culture and religion overlap. Waiting and letting the child choose to be baptized later on isn’t really the Catholic thing to do.

            1. But OP and her husband are not Catholic and are discussing a non-Catholic baptism. That doesn’t have to be done in infancy.

         2. Not at all. We had our son baptized in the Lutheran church at age 8. Pastor didn’t ask us anything about our beliefs. It was a conversation between the pastor and our son. I was baptized in the Catholic church and my parents did not raise me Catholic. I am glad I was baptized for a weird cultural reason I cannot explain to anyone.

            1. An 8-year-old is different from an infant, though. The parents get asked the questions if the child isn’t old enough to answer for himself. If the child is able to make his own decision and answer for himself, it’s obviously preferable that he do so.

   3. I’m Catholic; the Catholic church accepts baptisms from other Christian denominations as valid without inquiring into anyone’s sincerity; nobody has to “mean it” and there doesn’t have to be a plan to raise the child in the church for a baptism to count. They’re making that up to pressure you, and you were right to feel nervous about it.

      1. The only situation where “meaning it” would matter is if you were doing the baptism yourself and didn’t mean it (the person actually baptizing someone has to mean it; it’s not a real baptism if it’s e.g. part of a stage play or something).

         But if you’re getting it done by some other Christian church, that counts.

         1. The parents have to “mean” the promises at an infant baptism.

            1. No, in Catholicism, the baptism is still valid even if the parents don’t mean the promises. The only person whose intent matters for validity is the person doing the baptism!

               But they’re talking about getting a baptism at a church that isn’t Catholic. How often are there any parental promises at non-Catholic baptisms anyway?

            2. In non-Catholic infant baptisms the parental promises are the whole point. The parents promise to raise the child in the faith, and later the child accepts or the baptism of their own free will at confirmation when they are old enough to decide for themself. Baptism is not required for entry into heaven and does not automatically confer church membership–that happens at confirmation. The gift of forgiveness of sins must be freely accepted, which an infant obviously doesn’t have the capacity to do and the parents can’t do on behalf of the infant.

   4. I agree with your FIL, if you don’t mean it, don’t do it. I was baptized as a teen, although I was raised in a church and went to church from infanthood.

   5. I decided not to baptize my baby who was born this fall. Although I was raised Catholic, I have an attended church since starting college and no longer believe. I just don’t see the point if you’re a nonbeliever and don’t plan to raise your children in a religious faith. Why exactly would you be doing the baptism?

      1. I have not attended church since college. Not sure how that got changed

      2. Discounts on Catholic school!

         1. The closest daycare to work is at a Presbyterian church. Parishioners get priority on the waitlist. Similar setup at two Methodist churches. I have never thought so long and hard about converting (I went to a high school run by one of them and am otherwise a generic protestant sort of person). As it was, I had to stay on leave a month longer than I planned because I didn’t get my child in anywhere.

      3. My parents wanted to give me the option to be religious if I wanted to.

         1. A protestant baptism also gives the option of a church wedding if marrying a Catholic (which can mean an awful lot to family).

            1. That’s not a good reason to baptize an infant if you aren’t a believer. The child can always choose to be baptized as an adult.

            2. I think it’s a great reason; I would have hated to be baptized as an adult just to participate in cultural traditions that mean a lot to some of my relatives and also to some of my spouse’s relatives.

         2. Why would you need to be baptized to have an option to choose your religion as an adult?

   6. As a lapsed Catholic, I feel like almost 0 of the people I know who baptized their baby actually meant it and did it to appease a grandparent. Your in-laws might want you to mean it, but it’s fine not to not mean it or skip it altogether. A lot of the people I know don’t even send these baptized kids to CCD, although some do.

      1. Yeah I have quite a few friends who were raised Catholic, left the church, and still had their kids baptized Catholic to appease grandparents. Much like many many of my friends who are not religious but got married in a church to appease their parents.

         I’d characterize these friends as people who are spiritual and while they’re not practicing anything they’re not wholly opposed to religion. But they also find the Catholic Church harmful and don’t want to actively raise their kids in it.

         1. If they think the Catholic church is harmful and don’t want to raise their kids in it, why on earth would they literally promise to raise their kids there? Also, shouldn’t the parents be considering the later impact on the child? I would be hopping mad if I found out that my parents had given me a Catholic infant baptism, as I am Christian and consider the Catholic church’s beliefs and practices to fall outside the boundaries of Christian faith.

            1. Yikes! Catholics are Christians!

            2. You’re not a Christian if you don’t believe Catholics are christian. They very clearly are.

            3. While I fully believe Catholics are Christian, I do agree that the Church is stuck in the past to a harmful degree and that quite a few of the Church’s beliefs are antithetical to Jesus’ actions and words (I also feel the same way about any church where women don’t have equal roles and any church that doesn’t fully affirm and support the LGBTQ+ community). So yes, I don’t get why these friends baptized their kids in a church that doesn’t share their values.

               That being said – if you’re doing it for the grandparents, then it makes sense to do it in the grandparents’ denomination. Also, these friends didn’t want to put in the legwork to find a church that fits their values better because it’s not like they intend on taking their kids to church.

            4. lol. Why be mad if it means nothing?

            5. This is one of the most bonkers things I’ve ever seen here and there’s been plenty over the years.

               I’d love to hear how anyone could pretzel their reasoning enough to come up with “Catholics aren’t Christians.”

            6. I think some Baptists or non-denominational Christians believe that Catholics aren’t Christian because they misconstrue Catholic veneration of saints / praying to saints for their intercession as Catholics treating saints as gods and thus being polytheistic and not Christian. I don’t agree with this. Oddly to me, these types of churches (specifically the non-doms) don’t even necessarily have creeds that state their beliefs and aren’t always grounded in scripture or tradition so it’s odd to me that they’ve developed this belief.

               Meanwhile the Catholic Church is literally the first church and a direct line from the apostles so it’s wild to me how anyone can think the OG Christians (and for most of history the only Christians) aren’t Christian!

               There’s plenty that I disagree with the Catholic Church on, but their veneration of the saints (including Mary) is not one of those things.

               FWIW, I’m Episcopalian so someone who can speak more to this feel free to jump in.

            7. I’m the Anon at 11:16. I was raised Baptist and was taught Catholics aren’t Christian, so I assumed something like that is where the poster was coming from. I was taught that because there are saints, Mary, and priest intercession is required (which I don’t even know if that’s true), they aren’t Christian. I also was taught that Catholics worship the pope and didn’t know they don’t until I was literally 37 years old while watching The Young Pope starring Jude Law. So, there’s that :D

               Anyway, now I understand that Catholics are Christian, and I recognize that as a very bigoted teaching I was raised with.

   7. I am very Catholic, and my question is why are you baptizing your baby if you don’t plan to continue to raise him/her in (any) church? I ask that honestly, not snarkily, because baptism is a Big Deal, and I wonder why people feel the need to do it if they don’t believe it?

      Now, I’m of the mindset that I love to see babies baptized, it’s good for their souls, etc, and you never know what graces may come from it all. But, from a Catholic point of view, there are promises that a parent makes during the ceremony to raise their kids in the church, and FIL may be troubled to think of you making vows you don’t intend to keep (could have repercussions for your souls, from his POV, and he cares about you all). He may think it better if you don’t do it at all, especially if you’re having a baptism just to appease him and MIL (aka could feel patronizing to him).

      Again, I’m not trying to demean you or your choices at all — I’m just explaining what FIL may be thinking. And as for how to deal with it, you can thank him for your input/concern, you and DH will think about it but ultimately the decision is yours and you are choosing X.

      1. My friend once put it really well (he’s not religious because he’s gay and he was raised Catholic in a conservative area so he was made to feel unwelcome in the church). But he said on the 1% chance that this is all real and an unbaptized baby is not going to experience salvation as a result of being unbaptized, then yeah I’ll baptize my kids just to err on the side of caution.

         Obviously, he will do so in a denomination that affirms, loves, and supports all families.

         1. 1% chance? What? Where does that number come from? And why would a loving God prevent salvation for something that wasn’t the child’s fault? I’m sorry but that is ridiculous

            1. The 1% chance was my friend’s words. As in he’s 99% sure religion / God is not real but he’s not totally certain so in his mind it’s a 1% chance.

               Most Christians believe that a loving and just God would not hold this against a baby, but it is a belief (mostly formerly) held that you cannot go to heaven if you’re not baptized. Even if it’s not commonly included in church doctrine anymore plenty of people (like OPs in laws, per her update) still believe this. It can be hard to adapt when doctrine changes and what you were originally taught is no longer relevant.

            2. Even if there’s a 1% chance God is real, what are the odds the Catholic/denominational/Jewish/Muslim/Sikh/Hindu God is real? What are the odds baptism is God’s requirement? Soooooooo much less than 1%.

      2. To add to all of this: OP, virtually all churches (of any denominational variety) will require you as the parents to take classes and make an oral commitment during the baptism to raise your child as a Christian (I’m Episcopalian, which is about as permissive as you can get, and people who want to baptize their kids still have to attend a multi-hour workshop, provide godparents who attend a shorter workshop, and promise in front of the congregation to raise the kid as a Christian).* Now, many, many people do this without meaning it. But I think it’s worth considering how you will feel about having to do a bunch of workshops and then stand up and make promises that you don’t believe in. For me that just would not be comfortable, but that a decision only you can make.

         *the exception to this: our bishop (who is awesome), after the end of baptisms on Easter, stood up in front of the congregation and offered to baptize anyone who was realizing at that moment that they wanted to commit themselves or their child to Christ. I think it was quite scandalous to some of our traditionalists, but I thought it was great.

         1. I think this also greatly varies by church – we prepped for our kid’s baptism over a 20 minute zoom call with the rector and the godparents. Granted our Episcopal church is about as liberal as they come (if they dropped references to God it would be solidly UU.)

            1. We’re Episcopalian and when we baptized our kids at the church we attend, it was basically, “Which Sunday do you want to do this? Bring some godparents if you’re into that sort of thing.” They are a lot stricter about weddings but infant baptism…meh.

               I was baptized as a preschooler (Presbyterian, my mom didn’t want to do it twice so she did both of us at once). Growing up Protestant, I knew my parents thought baptizing children was an archaic cultural tradition that maybe you should do at some point, but our neighbors were silly for being worried about an unbaptized infant winding up in Limbo.

               While I wouldn’t let somebody push you into this, I don’t think you are pulling a fast one on The Almighty if you don’t literally believe in every word of the whole thing.

         2. Some churches (even Catholic) will make exceptions for when you live out of town and grandparents are active members of the church. Op, if this is an option for you, it might be the best way since a church is unlikely to perform a baptism for completely un-involved non-members (absent a sizeable contribution to the roof fund…).

      3. I am a mainline Protestant and agree with this. Why would you make promises that you don’t intend to keep? It is dishonest to yourself and disrespectful to the faith. It’s a purely religious ceremony and not also a cultural or racial thing like some other religions’ baby naming traditions.

         My denomination practices infant baptism. I believe in baptism and understand but do not agree with the rationale for infant baptism, so I did not have my child baptized as an infant. Instead I waited until she was of age and let her choose for herself whether and when to be baptized.

         1. There is such a thing as being culturally Catholic.

            1. Which is to say, Espicopalian.

            2. No.

            3. As an Episcopalian, we prefer “Catholic, but with a hug.” Or, “God’s Frozen Chosen.” Just kidding, really! But like half of our parishioners were raised Catholic.

            4. You may not think it’s a thing, or maybe you don’t like that people are that way, but you can google it if you don’t want to take my word for it.

            5. Of course there is! My city has big, multi-day Catholic parish feasts every weekend with pop bands, traditional folkloric bands, marching bands, food galore, and alcohol. The feast starts with a Holy Ghost procession through the streets and ends with a mass, and attendance at the mass is sadly very low. People of many faiths, or none at all, come out, as do elected officials and community leaders. We actually have the largest feast in North America, for this particular European ethnic community, one weekend.

               The majority of the weekend’s events are not religious, and they’re open to all. It’s very much a part of my city, county, and region’s culture. And I have to say most of us in our 30s and 40s aren’t raising our kids in the Catholic faith, sending them to CCD, etc, although baptism and First Communion still remain very big and often to appease parents/grandparents.

         2. Does your denomination practice confirmation? I’m Episcopalian and so we do infant baptism, but then the confirmation when you’re older is basically you choosing to reaffirm your baptismal covenant of your own free will and full understanding.

            To me, baptism opens the door to a life with God and then confirmation is your choice to reaffirm it.

            That being said, I think confirmation happens too early in the church (8th grade at my church, which is older than the 6th grade Catholic confirmations) because most confirmations still seem to happen at the parent’s insistence (my mom forced me to be confirmed!). I really feel like it should be a fully adult (18 or older) sacrament.

            1. It’s like timing for Bar/Bat Mitzvahs and lines up with puberty, so centuries ago, these kids were adults with careers and households of their own and soon likely to be parents. Different story in the western world in 2023. Historically though, I get it. It’s at time where kids learn about what their faiths really are about (not just making cute religious crafts during Sunday School), which I found interesting (did as an adult b/c my church was too small to warrant a confirmation class or visit from the Bishop when I was that old).

            2. At least at my Episcopalian church, confirmations have gotten younger. My family has gone to this church for decades, so my mom was confirmed there as a 16 or 17 year old in the 1970s or early 1980s. I got confirmed in the late 00s at 13.

      4. My husband is a divorced-non-annulled non-confirmed cultural Catholic and we baptized our children in a local church with Jesuits due to his family connection to that order. I promised (honestly) to raise them as Christians (but not as Catholics) and about 50% of their godparents are Catholic (others are Christian; one has two godmothers and no godfathers due to wanting blood relatives over one dodgy in-law who is now divorced out of our family). I am a confirmed and practicing member of a Protestant denomination and am active in that church, as are the children. We are Catholic-friendly though and both faiths agreed that you are baptized into Christianity and not into a demonimation (although other denominations and faiths may have other takes).

         1. Total curiosity – why did you not have your kids baptized in your Protestant denomination if that’s where you’re raising them?

            I do agree that a baptism is being baptized into Christianity and not a certain denomination so it doesn’t really matter where a child was baptized, I’m just curious!

            1. Not this poster, but many Protestant denominations don’t practice infant baptism, so that may have been important to her or the family for some reason.

            2. I wasn’t opposed and I’m from a largely Catholic part of the US and I’m cool with the Jesuits. It was the only bone I was prepared to throw DH and his side of the family on the religion issue though (like I wouldn’t convert, but I’m OK visiting). I knew I wouldn’t be allowed to be a Sunday school teacher or anything, so it wasn’t likely the kids would participate more there (but DH takes them maybe once a year). I couldn’t have predicted that we’d be active in my church, but it had an excellent youth music program that the kids really enjoyed that a neighbor ran (but I didn’t know that at the time).

      5. “Now, I’m of the mindset that I love to see babies baptized, it’s good for their souls, etc“

         I cannot express how horrifying I find this statement and belief. Wow.

         1. Why? I don’t mean against the will of the parents. I mean even if the parents don’t “mean it” I can see baptism as an objective good. Why would people baptize at all if they didn’t think it was good for souls? That’s the point of the sacrament!

   8. I have a tortured past with this including my mother and sister having my first child baptized at fhe hospital without my knowledge. My first child was gravely ill at the time. I have a lot of anger that they would believe that my child wouldn’t go to full heaven if she died (and she did die) SO MUCH ANGER. This was before the church apparently changed the definition of limbo. Which just points out the stupidity of the entire thing to me.

      I have had two more children since and decided to let my mom put together baptisms for them because by that point she wasn’t in great health herself and I loved her enough to not want her to worry about this, which I regard as the brainwashing of her own childhood. So they’re baptized but I didn’t raise them in the religion. There is no way to force me to “believe” the baptism. You get the moment, Mom, but that’s it.

      Do what you can live with. Your FIL needs to take the win and shut up.

      1. I don’t understand how your mother could have your child baptized without your consent or participation. Don’t the parents have to participate?

         1. Not in a last rites sort of situation.

            1. It wasn’t last rites. It was a baptism. I’m still angry. They brought a priest in. My sister fessed up later. Obviously I’m still angry.

         2. Nope, you can baptize someone without their parents or without a priest! Do I think it’s the right thing to do? No. But it does count as a valid baptism.

            1. Grandmother was a nurse in the 50s in a Catholic hospital, nuns could do it if the priest couldn’t make it in time, and she confessed the nurses might have on a few very dire occasions.

            2. My parents were going back and forth on whose denomination to baptize us in, so my very, very Episcopalian grandmother and my very Catholic uncle co-baptized my brother under the kitchen sink one Christmas. My grandmother literally never went anywhere without her Book of Common Prayer so she had the rite with her.

               Noted, that this is a funny story in our family and not a horrific overreach because my parents were going to baptize my brother regardless, they just couldn’t decide which denomination. Apparently, my brother is not the only grandchild my grandmother baptized because she was impatient with the baby’s parents deciding on a denomination (all of her kids were in mixed-denomination marriages, once again everyone was going to be officially baptized so it wasn’t overreach). My brother was formally baptized in a church too by a priest and with parents and godparents present.

            3. Do they still have to find eligible (confirmed) godparents in this situation?

      2. I’m so sorry about your first child and everything you had to go through with your mom in addition to the health issues with your child.

   9. I very firmly believe that in-laws do not get a vote in matters of this sort. I would simply say “no” or let my husband deal with it. It’s part of establishing your own authority and household. You can be polite and respectful but I wouldn’t cave. I see all things religious as very personal and between you and your spouse only.

   10. Here is a good overview of infant baptism:
       https://ct.dio.org/item/5021-hey-father-why-do-catholics-baptize-infants-why-can-t-the-child-grow-up-and-decide-for-himself-or-herself.html#

       I’m of two minds on this. As a practical matter, I think it’s almost worse to be baptised and not raised in the faith; it leads people to take the faith less seriously. Or they claim the mantle of “Catholic” (true in the sense of having been baptised), while knowing nothing about the actual faith. As a spiritual matter, I believe all infants should receive that sacrament.

       Another consideration is that you will need at least one godparent who is Catholic – like actually Catholic, goes to church, all that. (My deacon asked me about my kid’s godparents and their views on the faith. “Are you asking about the one with seven kids, one of whom is a priest, and goes to TLM, or are you asking about the godparent I was a confirmation sponsor for?”) Who would be your baby’s godparents? Is that a question for your in-laws (maybe a cousin in the family who is devout in the faith)?

       Best advice I have is to talk to a priest, ideally the one whose parish would be performing this baptism.

       1. This response makes sense for a Catholic baptism, but OP said they were leaning towards getting a Baptism that’s not Catholic. They’re not going to need a Catholic godparent at a non-Catholic church.

          1. That misses the point. Painfully.

             The Church recognises a Protestant baptism in the sense that it does not require nor permit a second baptism, even if Catholic. It’s the same thing as Catholics recognising the validity of marriages performed in Protestant churches. You’re not unmarried because you got married in a Protestant church but it’s also not something Catholics ought to be doing absent a dispensation from their priest.

             If you are in a mixed-faith marriage, you are supposed to have your kids baptised and brought up Catholic. There is no “but a Protestant baptism is just as good” exception.

             “But you wouldn’t allow the baby to receive a subsequent Catholic baptism” isn’t the point….

             1. It does kill me that in mixed-denomination or mixed-faith families the Catholic Church insists on having the kids brought up Catholic. Its so uncompromising! My dad literally left the Catholic Church over this (dad was Catholic, mom is Episcopalian. Mom said kids can be whatever but whoever’s religion they are needs to take them every week. My mom was / is a weekly church goer, my dad was less frequent and so I was raised Episcopalian* and my dad ultimately left the Catholic Church over this because he “failed” on raising his kids Catholic in a mixed denomination family).

                *I am glad that my mom “won” here because the Episcopal church is so welcoming and as a result I’m an occasional at best churchgoer. If I was raised Catholic, I would have left religion behind completely because of how it treats the LGBTQ+ community.

             2. We aren’t Jewish, but I feel like they have it right, that the kids take the mother’s religion. Not automatically or anything, but b/c we’re more likely to be the parent who does the kid things (and less beholden to whether our football team has a noon game that conflicts with the 1pm NFL schedule).

             3. OP said they’re not religious, so I can’t imagine they would care about what Catholics are “supposed” to do? A protestant baptism is “just as good” = is sacramentally valid. Obviously I understand that the Catholic in-laws would like for them to also be Catholic in every way, shape, and form.

   11. I have a few relatives who believe the Catholic Church to be the one true church and thus don’t really recognize the validity of being another denomination. So, if you choose to baptize your child into another denomination would your in laws even support that?

       1. Insofar as they’re Catholic, they pretty much have to recognize Christian baptisms done by other denominations in the name of the father, son, and holy spirit as valid. There is a list of denominations whose baptisms don’t count, but that’s because they’re not Trinitarian, not because they’re not Catholic.

          1. Anon 10:13 here – I recognize that the official policy is that other Christian baptisms do count but that doesn’t mean my relatives are fully on board with that… There are plenty of Catholics (I know many of them) who think Catholicism is the only valid form of Christianity and the rest of us are just heathens :)

             FWIW, my dad was raised Catholic / his whole family is still Catholic and my mom and her family are very Episcopalian – my sister and I were raised Episcopalian and a few Catholic relatives actually said things like “well it’s a shame you won’t go to heaven since you’re not Catholic”.

             1. Oh, can confirm that this is still the attitude in many places.

             2. This is the infiltration of the evangelical “saved” mindset on American Catholicism. I don’t disagree that the Catholic Church holds that it is the church founded by Jesus, but it absolutely does NOT believe only Catholics go to heaven.

                I’m sure some individuals with warped views believe this, not disagreeing with you, but it is not a position of the Church.

             3. If it is indeed not a position of the Catholic Church, I wish that priests would be more clear with this! I grew up Episcopalian in a very Catholic area and felt so othered and unwelcome as a result of not being Catholic.

             4. I know Reddit tends to bring out the more extreme voices, but I just searched Episcopal on the Catholicism subreddit and WOW the comments there are extreme and hurtful.

       2. This was my initial reaction. My Catholic grandparents and family elders wouldn’t be appeased by a non-Catholic baptism. If they’re doing it for the grandparents, I don’t know that this would actually have the desired effect.

   12. I’m Canadian so basically no one under 40 is religious (you can look into the Catholic Church in QC and residential schools if you want to know why), that said almost everyone I know has baptized their children to appease grandparents. Sincerity doesn’t matter for things that aren’t real.

   13. Lapsed Catholic here. To be honest if you are going to baptize to appease your Catholic in-laws but not have a Catholic baptism, at least in my family, that would be completely pointless because a non-Catholic baptism means nothing to them. If you want to baptize because it is somehow meaningful to you, then go ahead and you don’t owe anyone any justification about how much you “mean” it. I did not baptize because I no longer feel at home in the Catholic faith and don’t plan on raising my children as Catholic (and we don’t attend any other type of Christian church either). My extended family was somewhat disappointed but we had a “birth party” where baby wore a cute dress and got gifts and that made them somewhat happy, they also know that I’m not religious so it wasn’t a huge surprise to them and everyone was pretty gracious about it.

   14. Not a Catholic here so take it with a grain of salt – even if the church has no intent requirements and your FIL is just adding that to pressure you into raising a Catholic child, why would you do something like baptism if you don’t believe in it or want your child raised in that faith? IDK to me it’s too big of a thing just to keep the peace – even more than doing a wedding in a particular church bc you can consider yourself legally married even if you didn’t believe in the religious ceremony done and that was just to please the parents. Here it’s ONLY a religious ceremony in a religion you don’t believe or practice?

       Plus practically if you don’t this, won’t this just open the door to MIL/FIL expecting you other religious things going forward for the sake of the child? Things like CCD or vacation Bible school, confirmation or communion etc? After all those are minor commitments, won’t they be expected to keep the peace?

   15. Here’s what my family is doing, if this is helpful to you at all.

       I was raised Episcopalian and while I am not religious as an adult, I also had a positive experience in the church growing up and think very highly of the denomination. I think that there were good lessons to be learned (personally, I think Jesus was a real person and did a lot of good and taught good lessons, I just don’t believe he was the Son of God). I also recognize that having religion is something that is helpful and comforting and enjoyable to many of my family members and some of my friends. I don’t want to deny that comfort to my kids even though it’s not comforting to me. So, my kids were baptized and we go to church once every 4-6 weeks. That way, they have a foundation in religion and if it is something they’re interested in or want more of, I will happily take them more. Confirmation will be totally up to them – I was forced into it and thought it was BS. If no one shows interest church, we’ll probably stop going at some point. I just want to expose them to it enough that they can make their own choices.

       That being said – my personal values are really present in the Episcopal Church. If I was raised in a church that wasn’t as open as the Episcopal Church I’m sure I would have a much different view on religion. I also like that (I feel at least) church is reaffirming what we’re trying to teach our kids at home: love your neighbor as yourself, focus on equality and helping those who need it the most. The three priests at our church are a gay man, a disabled woman (wheelchair bound), and a Black woman who is an immigrant. I love that my kids are seeing such a diverse array of people in leadership positions. The church does a lot of service work, that we sometimes join in on. I’ll also say that because I was raised going to Church most weekends, I do enjoy sitting through a service. Our church is historic and beautiful, I enjoy the hymns, etc. So even if it’s not my religion, it’s a fine way for me to spend an hour a month. Obviously, if you dont enjoy attending a service that’s a totally different ballgame.

       I’m also very open with my kids that everybody believes different things: some people believe in God, some don’t. Some people believe in God in different ways (like when we go to a friend’s Hanukkah party we discuss that this is how this family believes in God). It’s okay to believe in God or to not believe in God, and if you do believe in God it’s okay to believe in God however you want to. If they express an interest at going to a different type of church or if they want to go to a non-Christian service at synagogue, temple, etc. I’m more than happy to take them too. I also am open that I’m not sure if I believe in God (and that it’s okay to not be sure, or to believe sometimes but not other times), but I think Jesus has good lessons that are worth listening to.

       1. “personally, I think Jesus was a real person and did a lot of good and taught good lessons, I just don’t believe he was the Son of God”

          If I may ask, why? Do you think that He never claimed to be the Son of God and that people falsely attributed that to Him later, or do you think that Jesus falsely made those claims?

          1. She doesn’t have to justify her beliefs to you. I don’t believe in God, period; it all seems like pointless mythologizing to me. Like people who need a belief crutch because they can’t accept life isn’t fair. But I don’t have to justify that to anyone, either.

          2. My belief in a higher or spiritual power is somewhere between a Diest interpretation of God (God exists but isn’t involved in the day to day happenings on earth) and the “universe”, so I don’t believe that God would have sent a Son of God to earth and communed so directly with us.

             I fully believe in Jesus’ teachings and good deeds, but I don’t believe in the divinity of Jesus.

             I never thought about your question directly, but I would probably say that people attributed Jesus’ holiness / Son of God status to him after the fact. So much of the religion that exists now was established after Jesus’ lifetime (like even the Gospels were written a decent amount (in that era) after his death and by individuals who were not first-hand eye witnesses to him). If I had to guess, it was that Jesus had great ideas and definitely made waves during his life time and then after he died the hype of him continued to grow to the point where he was believed to be the Messiah (especially since people were on the lookout for a Messiah that had been spoken about by the prophets).

             I’m a huge proponent of WWJD and I do think the world would be a better place if we all sought to do what Jesus would do (I often look to the Beatitudes as an example of this – we should all seek to be peacemakers for example).

             I also believe that Jesus was a devout Jew, as as the culture in that time and place. So, I don’t doubt he was preaching the Word of God and following Jewish customs / using related language.

             I think that from pretty much the beginning of time, societies and governments used religion to help and protect their citizens. Religion in 2023 is comforting to so many when we have modern ways to learn about the world, so I can only imagine how much comfort was needed in the AD era when so much was not yet understood. Likewise, in a world where many die young having the belief in an afterlife is immensely comforting. If you think about it – kosher and halal rules were likely developed because there were foods that made people sick / killed them and it was advantageous to avoid those foods, so thus they became against religion. Likewise, the avoidance of meat on Fridays developed as a way to support the Italian fishing industry. So – I don’t necessarily believe that religions are truly inspired by the Divine, but that they were a means to an ends for societies.

             To me, a prayer is setting an intention or setting aside time to think and focus on something. Whether it’s going to God or the Universe or just a quiet time to focus on something that’s needed or good or whatever, I think it’s all pretty much the same but also I think it’s helpful. Like how lovely is the focus of getting our daily bread, forgiving our trespasses / forgiving those who trespass against us , and being delivered from evil?

             I know this is a somewhat controversial approach (I get a lot of questions about how I can believe in Jesus without “believing” in Jesus), but it works for me. I feel like even if I’m dead wrong and God and Jesus are very much real and working in our world, at least I’m still involved with church.

             1. Allowing fish on Fridays may have been a way to support the fishing industry, but fasting from animal foods is a much older and broader Christian tradition than that! Eastern Catholic Lent is fully vegan. (I do think there are probably advantages to seasonal fasts, and they’re even being secularized now with things like meatless Mondays…)

             2. I am anti-religion and find this entire thread baffling, having not been raised with Christian language and mythology. But this Deist/pro-Jesus’ message take is perhaps the most thoughtful, practical, harmonizing, and unoffensive perspective I have read. Thank you. You can sit by me.

             3. Anonymous, thank you for your kind words! I took a screenshot of your comment to keep on my phone because it really meant a lot.

                Discussions about religion so often become nasty, but at the end of the day I believe that we pretty much all want the same end (peace, harmony, understanding, acceptance) and that everyone’s belief system is just their own means to get to that end – and that it shouldn’t matter if its religious, not religious, or anything in between :)

          3. I have a long response to you in mod – check back later.

   16. I think this thread is interesting in that it reveals something – baptism means something to the religious, and it does not mean something to the non-religious. So there are a lot of religious people in this thread saying don’t do it if you don’t mean it (because it is meaningful to them) and some non-religious people saying do it if you think it’s a nice thing that will keep the peace once done. I’m in the later camp, especially because in your case it sounds like you are not OPPOSED to baptism, in part because it holds no meaning to you. There are plenty of things we do to be polite, keep the peace, or maintain relationships even when we are not personally interested in those things (AND we do not have a problem doing them). But I think you need to work on the idea of ‘navigating differences while raising a child’ because this mindset gives way too much weight to what your in laws think. All that really matters here is what you and your husband want to do in the best interest of you two and your kid.

       1. But it sounds like FIL is not satisfied with a “going through the motions Baptism”. So why do something purely out of appeasement that may cause more anguish to the people you are trying to appease? It’s maybe worse than just being authentic to their own beliefs.

       2. Yeah, this thread gets at something I find very interesting, which is the unsettled state of cultural Christianity in the US. In countries that have established churches or are majority Catholic, baptism is frequently just a thing people do and sincerity of belief on the parents’ part doesn’t come into it. In those environments, cultural Christianity extends to the sacraments. In the US, where our concepts of Christianity are heavily shaped by Protestantism, in which the personal relationship with Jesus, personal salvation experience, and voluntary acceptance of the faith are central, people have a lot more discomfort around baptism by non churchgoers. It’s a surface manifestation of what is ultimately a very culturally specific understanding of what being a Christian means.

          1. It’s theological, not just cultural.

             1. Honestly a lot of these supposed hardliner Catholics sound like they’re much more Protestant than they know!

             2. Yeah – the comment on this thread about most Catholics not believing in tr*nsubstantiation but the fact that most Catholics have different personal views than the ones prescribed by the church, to me, that is very Protestant!

          2. I come from a very Catholic European country and I have the same belief. That is, I did not baptise my child, because I am not a churchgoer myself. There is a lot of debate on baptising children to appease the grandparents (with the same underlying current of it has to be meant).

       3. You are missing the point. It is disrespectful to a religion to practice one of its sacraments if you don’t “mean it.” People would be up in arms about “cultural appropriation” and disrespect if OP were suggesting her non-Jewish child have a bar/bat mitzvah. Why is it OK to appropriate Christian religious sacraments?

          1. Cultural appropriation is about power dynamaics, where a privileged group that holds power over a marginalized group picks and chooses aspects of the marginalized group’s culture without their consent and lacking the full understanding of what it means to the marginalized group. Do you think Protestant v Catholic faiths have those power dynamics?

          2. It’s not appropriation of anything if it’s the actual sacrament. Being baptized for real is being baptized for real.

       4. What you’re missing is that baptisms include the parents standing in front of the congregation and making very specific promises. Take the faith/ religion question out of it: it is never ethically or morally ok to get up in front of a bunch of people and lie.

          1. This. If you don’t believe in it, which is fine, just don’t do it. Even to appease someone else.

          2. Yikes…not fully beliving in doctrine isn’t lying!

             Most fellow Catholics taking Communion (at least in my community) don’t believe in transubstantiation. I don’t literally think I’m eating and drinking the flesh and blood of Jesus.

             Does that mean I’m lying? No, it’s a metaphor to me.

          3. Reply in mod…not sure why…but I was saying not fully beliving in doctrine isn’t lying! Most Catholics I know don’t actually believe Communion is blood and body of Christ. It’s a metaphor for me. That doesn’t mean I’m lying! Religion is supposed to be personal. Dictating what passes the purity test is problematic.

             1. So some denominations are pretty “this is our belief and you must share it to be one of us” and others are much more lax.

                My understanding is that transsubstantiation is one of those strict beliefs for Catholics and is kind of what sets Catholics apart from Protestants.

                There was a discussion about this a few weeks ago on this board that I found interesting as an Episcopalian (and to me showed that a lot of Catholics are pretty ignorant about Episcopalianism – I don’t mean this in a malicious way just that they misunderstand us).

                The Episcopal Church is often called the most catholic Protestant church and it is. It was traditionally thought of as the via media – it’s the third way and is the option between Catholicism and Protestantism. To be honest, I don’t even consider myself Protestant (nor do I consider myself Catholic – it really is it’s own thing in my mind).

                So – Episcopalians believe that the Eucharist is Christ. We call this True Presence or Real Presence. So, when we have the wafer and wine in our mouths we’re truly connected to Jesus in that moment. I view it as a literal taste of heaven.

                Because the Episcopal Church leaves a fair amount of belief up to the individual, there’s no set way that we believe the wafer and wine become Christ. It could be transsubstantiation (literally transforms into the body and blood og Christ) , it could be consubstantiation (it is both wafer and body and wine and blood at once), it could be something else.

             2. Correct me if I’m wrong but I thought transsubstantiation is a pretty core tenant of Catholicism. If you don’t believe in that, what keeps you Catholic?

             3. Well, it means you have heretical beliefs according to Catholic doctrine, but my understanding is that Catholics can believe a lot of stuff privately if they don’t promote it (and that this is not viewed as “lying”; it’s actually what people are supposed to do if they want to stay Catholic).

          4. this is where I come down too and I have no dog in this fight (not Catholic or related to anyone who is). It’s also the reason I felt strongly about not getting serious about anyone who might want me to convert. I could never imagine doing it because it would be dishonest to me, let alone the thought of doing it for my child.

   17. I was raised catholic by my catholic mom and my dad who grew up in a socially methodist house and didn’t care much for religion. my mom took us to church every sunday; dad went for Big Events Only. I am not at all religious and neither is DH.
       When we had our first, my mom said something like “oh if you don’t baptize it will kill your grandmother!” So I asked my grandmother. “Grandma, is it important to you to that I baptize Baby? If it is, we will get it done and you can come. Otherwise, we’ll wait until she’s old enough to make the choice herself.” My grandma just told me to do what I want, it’s my kid.
       Honestly, I’d say, “FIL, if you want us to have Baby baptized, we will do that for you. But it is not something we would otherwise do.” It’s like 15 minutes and a splash on the head; it’s not a battle I’d pick- but I’m not religious.

   18. My in laws are devoutly catholic. I am barely Protestant and my husband does not go to mass frequently. We did not baptize our children. It was a topic 1-2x, and hasn’t been mentioned since (kids are 9 and 11). My in laws aren’t raising my children. My husband and I decided not to baptize, in laws didn’t get a vote. They weren’t pushy about it but it was clear they would have preferred a baptism. And i wasnt rude, just wasn’t something we were going to do. From stories on here, I get the sense some others are pushier and I’m there’s more conflict.

   19. Idk why you’d baptize your kid if you are not Christian at all

   20. I think you should do it only if you want to. It doesn’t matter what reason, just as long as it’s what you want for your kid.

       This is your kid. It’s boundary setting.

   21. here’s my take. i was a cafeteria catholic when i had my kids so both are baptized catholic. i got really really pissed at the priest while my eldest was doing his first communion. (he was implying women would “get mad at papi” and decide to abort a baby at 38 weeks… i walked out at that point but apparently there was thunderous applause after that homily.)

       ANYWAY. i knew i was never walking back into a catholic church again (my cafeteria tray was totally empty), but i decided I wanted my eldest son to finish his first communion because if he wanted to get back into the religion later, it wouldn’t be a huge burden — if he wanted to marry in the catholic church i think he would be allowed, for example. my second son also finished his first communion for the same reason. in my mind i’m helping my future son (and the catholic church) by leaving a possible door open for him.

   22. OP here, thanks all for the thoughtful replies. Answering a few questions quickly between meetings:

       • We would 100% NOT be doing a Catholic baptism. It would be Lutheran, because my childhood church aligns much more closely with our values
       • In-laws do not care about Catholic vs non-Catholic, as long as it’s Christian
       • As far as why we would do this when we don’t believe in it, my understanding from my husband is that in his parents’ eyes, anyone who is unbaptized will face eternal d@mnation. So to them, a decision to not baptize would cause real angst and fear for our child’s soul. I don’t know if this aligns with current teachings but it’s what they believe. I know I’m not responsible for my in-laws feelings, but it seems like a small sacrifice for us to make to put their minds at ease. And I also know we would have to hold a boundary after that to avoid any further meddling or pushing of religion. The poster who spoke about teaching their kids that everyone has different beliefs, etc really resonated with me. I’m curious how others have navigated these types of conversations (both with their kids and parents/in-laws) and how it has gone.

       1. OP, if I were in your shoes I think I would absolutely go along with a baptism to put my in-laws’ (superstitious and unfounded and actually rather tragic, in my view) fears of damnation at rest. I feel like the most important thing in these kinds of situations are the relationships, and doing what you REASONABLY can to accommodate them — I am not a believer but I had a full-on church wedding because it was important to my sweet husband.

          1. I agree with this – if you’re not fundamentally opposed to baptism (which it sounds like you aren’t) I’d go ahead and do it to assuage your in-laws (very real to them) fears.

             My parents feel the same way about baptism and so I plan on baptizing my future kids to help them feel better. My parents would definitely like it if I raised kids religiously (and I might), but they feel very, very strongly about baptism as to them it’s a one way ticket to eternal damnation without it. I very much feel that a just and loving God wouldn’t hold a child’s lack of baptism against them in the afterlife, but it’s not my place to judge my parents fears either.

             A friend of mine chose to baptize his kids, despite my friend not being practicing, because he grew up hearing that unbaptized babies are subject to eternal damnation and even though he doesn’t believe in that anymore, just on the off chance it’s true, he wants his children to not be damned. He summed it up to me once as “I’ll baptize my kids just in case much like I’m not going to say ‘Bloody Mary’ three times into a dark bathroom mirror. I don’t really think anything will happen, but why take the chance?”

       2. Your in laws sound like my family, who also believe the unbaptized go to h3ll. I’m surprised they would be OK with a Lutheran baptism though.

       3. This Hindu is going to hell then.

   23. non Catholic who baptized me kids because it matters to grandma, but only did chr-easter services + confirmation (and now hasn’t been to church since 2021):
       he’s saying that just baptizing is not enough for him. if you’re doing it for his approval and won’t do more, I would consider whether you even care to do the baptism. for my MIL baptism and confirmation we’re themselves impt, so we did them.

       1. I think forcing a child to be confirmed is even worse than an infant baptism you don’t “mean.” We required our daughter to attend confirmation class, but left it up to her whether to be confirmed. Our church (UMC) wouldn’t even have agreed to confirm her unless it was her own choice; it has to be voluntary and is entirely up to the child.

   24. This thread has made me extremely grateful to be an atheist. So thanks for that!

   25. Absolutely not. I think this is a “give them an inch, they’ll take a mile” situation. I’d set a firm boundary regarding how you plan to raise your children and would not do something to appease the ILs.

   26. Can’t you say no?

5. Anyone buying their own health insurance, outside of an employer plan? If you don’t qualify for an ACA subsidy what is your strategy, if you anticipate high medical costs?

   I have bought it on the ACA Marketplace for several years. I don’t qualify for a subsidy anymore, so it is breath-takingly expensive. Unfortunately, I have been unlucky and was diagnosed with serious medical conditions this year. I maxed out my out of pocket. If I keep the same (silver) plan it costs almost $1000 per month and the max Out of Pocket is about $9000. I also have a lot of uncovered but tax deductible medical expenses.

   I am debating switching to a Gold plan, as my expenses may be even higher this year (not sure…). But maybe not smart since premium is $250 per month more and similar max OOP. I don’t know if I will hit max OOP in 2024 but it is likely.

   Since I don’t qualify for a subsidy anymore, should I be trying to buy directly from BLUE CROSS? It just occurred to me that premiums/plans could be different….

   I’m in Illinois.

   thank you

   1. I used to do this with my mom, before she was eligible for Medicare. Definitely do the math. When she was buying the silver plans were generally a better deal if you planned to have major medical expenses. I think it was easier to buy it directly through Blue Cross although maybe that’s changed.

   2. Reach out to insurance companies directly. I believe some of them offer a “freelancer” plan that ends up being a much better deal than what you can get through the marketplace.

   3. I started my own consultancy in 2020 after being laid off needed healthcare. I couldn’t find a group I could join so I ended up finding coverage though my state’s ACA. My subsidy was minimal the first year, but I was still ramping up and didn’t know how to anticipate my income. Over time my subsidy has decreased and it gets made up when you file federal taxes. If they’ve given you too much subsidy during the year or not enough, they adjust your taxes due to reflect the true-up.

      I bought a “gold” level PPO plan that had all of my current doctors in network and includes the hospital closest to me. Choosing the gold rather than the high deductible plan was a no brainer after I figured out the costs of all my prescriptions (I have a couple of chronic illnesses.)

      I did buy a dental plan – in my mind it’s just there in case I need something major, but generally I’m just a twice a year cleaning and a once a year x ray person.

      I didn’t buy a vision plan. I can budget for an eye exam and new glasses every year. I’ve never been impressed with employer based vision coverage in the past. With no employer subsidy, it didn’t seem worth it at all. If anything major ever goes wrong with my eyes, that will 99% likely just be an Opthamologist thing, not an optometrist thing, and the Opthamologist is covered by my PPO.

   4. I go through my associations for cheaper rates – try joining a junior league, farm bureau, bar association, etc. I am single and no kids and make over 6 figures and my plan is less than $350/month for decent coverage. Midwest state.

   5. Thank you for these excellent suggestions.
      Really helpful.

      1. Try joining the Freelancers Union. They offer a group rate for plans. Also, if you’re self-employed, the premium is a business deduction while the out-of-pocket payments are deductible after a point.

   6. I’m in Illinois as well. We reached out to a broker to help us identify and vet the plans available to us. She asked what doctors we were currently using and meds and came back with a bunch of different options. It saved us a TON of time and frustration and helped us figure out how to keep the docs that were most important (my oncologist was important to me, my derm for acne not so much). Her name was Jennifer Adler. She works for Executive Capital Resources–you can find with a web search. I believe they’re northern suburbs, but I think my husband did everything by phone and email.

      1. THANK YOU so much for this advice.

         Is she your financial advisor, and did she help you with this because of your prior relationship?
         Do you recommend her for her other skills?

6. Looking for gift ideas for a college freshman. I’m so out of it this year that it only hit me this morning I needed to get her a gift. She’s my goddaughter. I also generally buy her sister a small gift. She’s a freshman at a large state university, majoring in math, basically has everything she needs. She’s been in dance since she was 5 but I don’t think she is currently dancing, unless it’s an elective class. Her style is kind of Urban Outfitters/Free People. I’ve done the Lululemon belt bag, an oversize sweatshirt, and a handknit hat with a bunch of giftcards the past 3 years. I’ll ask her mom when I see her next, but just want to get some thoughts down. Budget is $50 to $75, but I’m willing to supplement a less expensive gift with coffee gift cards.

   1. Something small from her college bookstore, like a coffee mug, and gift cards for restaurants on campus or Uber eats.

   2. I have college aged kids. I swear some Bombas or Stash brand socks would make them happy. For my son’s late Novemberr birthday I got him the new Sony earbuds he has been dreaming of, plus a silicone case that snaps to his keychain (Amazon will tell you which cases fit which earbud charger/cases). I bought him an air tag thinking he’d slip it into the silicone thingy, but it turns out they sell silicone keychains that hold an Air Tag, so another air tag and one of those keychains will be going into his stocking this year.

   3. Some kind of cozy beauty thing, and money. Unless you can knock it out of the park with a luxury item, I’d default to what every college kid wants, which is money.

   4. Does she have any interest in Greek life and if so – when does rush happen at her school? At my school rush happened right before the start of second semester freshman year and I would have appreciated some new clothes to wear to rush (there are themes for different days, and I remember as a freshman not having things that fit some of the themes).

      1. +1 This is what my freshman in college niece asked for this Christmas. I got her a gift card to Lulu’s so she can pick whatever she thinks is best.

   5. You are describing my daughter exactly (except she has a different major!). She too has told me she doesn’t need any stuff-her dorm room is just too small. A couple of ideas though-a Stanley tumbler, nice hair or beauty products, jewelry. My daughter has tons of University swag as do her friends, so I wouldn’t recommend that.

   6. you might need to inquire with her mom about what she already has or her laptop brand, but an electric kettle was my dorm MVP for making tea while I studied in winter. Also practical but SO helpful is having multiple laptop power cords so you can leave one plugged in neatly at your desk rather than constantly crawling on the floor to fish it out.

      Christmas my freshman year is also when I asked for upgrades to some of the school stuff I’d been using in high school. Like that’s when those color blocked Herve Chapelier totes were EVERYWHERE and I felt dorky with my LLBean backpack.

   7. The best gift for a college freshman is cash or a DoorDash gift card. Or maybe an Uber gift card so they can use it for rides and for Uber Eats?

   8. I have a college sophomore. Some items From her list: Jewelry stands from Urban Outfitters; the beauty gift sets from Target; a planner from Papier.

      Urban Outfitters has a sweet potato bedside lamp that’s really cute.

      An item she can’t live without in the dorms is a small white noise machine.

      I plan to get her Clinique’s Black Honey lip gloss, too.

      Good luck!

   9. I would do a Target gift card, or whatever grocery store she frequents. Or a gift card to the university bookstore/gear store so she can get a hoodie or whatever clothing she likes.

   10. -Stanley Mug
       -Bubble headband (It’s what all the influencers use in their skincare routine videos)
       -Sephora perfume sampler set (comes with a voucher for a full sized bottle of whichever one she likes best)
       -Charlotte Tilbury Pillow Talk Lip Kit
       -Hanging Toiletry Kit (I have one from My Tagalongs that I love)

   11. I just bought a gift like this for my female college freshman family member.
       She’s not the Lululemon belt bag type, but would like your sweatshirt and hat gifts.

       This year I got her a cozy snuggly throw blanket for her dorm room.
       I saw her cuddling with mine when she was visiting me, and it’s winter so…

       I asked for recs on here, and was going to buy her a pretty nice one, but realized … she’is in college, it will be trashed by the end and she doesn’t deserve a totally lux one. I do!! So I got her the one recommended by Wirecutter as being great but affordable. So it’s totally in your price range.

       LL Bean
       Wicked Plush Throw blanket
       $40 for the XL one (get the bigger one).
       Nice colors. Is bundled nicely for wrapping/gifting.

7. Recently, when I spend a long time standing in the kitchen cooking, my feet get really sore. Any recommendations for a rug or something I can get to help with this? It’s really detain me for making longer recipes.

   1. There are definitely kitchen pressure mats designed to help with this issue if you want to try one!

      You didn’t mention what your shoe situation is in the kitchen. If you aren’t wearing supportive house shoes that could be another intervention worth trying.

   2. Are you wearing supportive shoes?

   3. Silly question, but are you wearing shoes, or are you barefoot? This has made a huge difference for me. I have a retired pair of running shoes that are my “kitchen shoes” when I’m going to be standing for a long time.

      1. Yeah, I wear a pair of crocs on the tile floor, otherwise my feet get really sore.

         1. +1 for the crocs

   4. I love wearing Birkenstock clogs as slippers for this reason. So supportive, it makes a big difference for me.

   5. These standing mats from House of Nola are haunting my algorithm ads in my social media because I keep clicking on them and thinking about getting one.

      1. Link: https://www.thehouseofnoa.com/collections/standing-mats

         1. I got these on Black Friday and so far I love them

   6. You have to wear supportive shoes. I am currently in Harlinger clogs at the advice of my podiatrist. I am instructed never to go barefoot again.

      Years ago my husband tried to address this by buying a padded kitchen mat for me to stand on, but it’s a challenge to have it in the place you need it when you need it (the place where you stand to chop? In front of the stove? In front of the sink?) and I found it to be a trip hazard.

      In the long run it turns out what I needed were better shoes on my feet.

      1. This is exactly what I’ve never understood about those mats. It would seem like you’d need a really big one to cover all of the places I stand in the kitchen (and my kitchen is tiny!). And I’d definitely trip on it. I’m enough of a klutz that I was already firmly in the shoes on in the kitchen camp, though. I don’t want to worry about dropping sharp, heavy, or hot things on my bare feet!

   7. Also: cooking in Crocs.

   8. I wear Hoka sandals in the house (tile floors). We also have kitchen pressure mats in front of the sink, stove, and counter where we prep. You can get them from the river store, big box stores or even places like TJMaxx. I like seasonal ones, but they have plain ones as well. I thought we would have the tripping issue as well, but it hasn’t really been an issue.

   9. I was given crocs as a gag gift a few months ago but honestly I have to admit they’re great. I have high arches and I’m overweight, so standing barefoot for a long time is really hard on my ankles and heels. The crocs are not at all attractive but they are soooo comfortable.

   10. These mats are fabulous: https://www.frontgate.com/wellnessmats-26reg-3b-frontgate-series-scroll-comfort-mat/1111355

8. I’m trying to figure out what to get my assistant for Christmas. I lean toward consumable gifts, most of the other people in my office I give Starbucks GC (I’m the manager) along card with handwritten note about what I appreciate about them. My assistant is going to have surgery shortly after Christmas so I’m thinking of giving her an Uber eats GC (she’s not someone who goes to Starbucks). Any other feedback or suggestions?

   1. Money is best, a very versatile gift card is second best – Target, Amazon, or UberEats all fine options

   2. Cash always unless the recipient is someone who values an actual gift. I have one assistant who places a lot of stock in receiving a personal gift rather than just cash. I only do gift cards if I have to mail it, and I send Visa gift cards so they can use it to buy whatever or Amazon if I know they have a Prime account.

   3. I had a really good response last year when I gave each staff member an amaryllis. I’d never give a plant that needs care but the ones they sell for gifts are set up to be effectively hand-off. They grow rapidly and bloom multiple times. Might be nice if she’ll be recuperating. And for my own admin I add cash.

9. Does anyone know of an app or website when you can save the ingredients used for various recipes, and then create a grocery list by picking certain recipes? I would like to be able to easily put together a grocery list when meal planning without having to double check the recipes to see what ingredients I need.

   1. I think Paprika does this!

      1. Yes I forget to use this feature but it’s a good one.

   2. Paprika will do this for you. It’s literally the only app I’ve ever paid for, and I have zero regrets. I use it probably 3 times a week, and not nearly to its full potential.

      1. Paprika is life-changing. I use it to meal plan. I use it for the different shopping list functions (so I can keep track of what I need for the quarterly trips to Costco, or Trader Joe’s). I use it to scale recipes (touch a button and you can easily scale up in weird amounts, like if you need to make 1 1/2 times the recipe. But the best part, until they take it away, is that it scrapes NYT Cooking recipes so you can add them to your personal recipe database without subscribing to that feature.

      2. +1,000 for Paprika. I have actually paid for it for both my laptop and my phone (it syncs from platform to platform) — that’s how much I love it.

   3. Pepperplate, Paprika, Plan to Eat. I’m sure there are more.

   4. I use Paprika as my recipe app and it lets you do this. You can download recipes from online sources into the app and the process generally works very well. Obviously, it’s a lot more work if your recipes are mostly in books or on recipe cards! Then there’s a feature called “Meals” where you can select your recipes for the week and you can generate a grocery list from that. You can also quickly scan the list and easily remove items you don’t actually need to buy, like pantry staples that you always have on hand, or add other items you need that wouldn’t be reflected in the recipes.

      1. I have a NYT cooking subscription and I download recipes I am interested in to the Paprika app. I’m just so used to cooking with it. I highly prefer it. Ingredients on one tab, and instructions on the other.

10. Tell me if I’m overreacting. I have been struggling with feeling unseen, unnoticed, and unappreciated at work. I lead a team, and it feels like everything we do flies under the radar. Even when we knock it out of the park, it’s like it’s regarded as business as usual. Our boss’s boss might give a quick “way to go” but that’s as far as it goes. I see what our peers are doing and know that we are doing a good job and are producing quality work.

    It has started to grate on me, especially because it seems that other teams get much more public praise and accolades. Perhaps this is relevant, or not, but my area (marketing and communications) is often seen as an add-on rather than a core function. There is nobody from the C-suite with a marcomm background. Our boss is solid, but she fully admits that our area is not her wheelhouse and she just trusts us to get the job done. Nobody seems unhappy with our work, and other teams aren’t shy about requesting things from us. So I’m not sure why we never stand out.

    My performance reviews are always stellar and I’ve gotten enough raises over the years to keep me satisfied from a financial standpoint. But I still can’t help feeling like I am not valued, and by extension, my team isn’t either.

    So, yeah. I’m tired of feeling this way but honestly can’t suss out whether I’m being oversensitive, or whether it’s a genuine issue.

    1. Great performance reviews and consistent raises are literally how employers show you that your work is valued.

       1. Yep, that’s what the money is for. And your area is one where it’s noticed when you screw up, not when it goes well. Similar to legal, frankly. I’d get over the desire for kudos, it’s not realistic.

          1. came here to share that Don Draper quote :)
             that being said, OP, you can decide that the company is not a good fit for your work style or preferences and consider a move, for good reasons or no reasons. but having made a jump due to a culture issue (resulting in a loss in bonus comp and an even WORSE culture), I’d think very carefully about whether this is a hill you want to die on if you’re getting great reviews and good comp.

             1. Believe me, I’ve thought about it, and the only reason why I haven’t made the leap is because I’m afraid it would be worse elsewhere.

             2. Yep, was also just about to break out “That’s what the money is for.”

    2. Of course it’s a genuine issue. Morale matters and everyone knows that teams need to feel appreciated. If you trust your supervisor, I would suggest having an honest conversation with her but making sure you don’t veer into whiny.

    3. Two things can both be true: you lead a team that is a support function and you also deserve to be recognized for the work your team does. As a team leader, can you push your boss to help elevate the profile of the team? Even smaller things like drafting emails for her thanking specific members of the team, or asking her to ensure that the good work is praised to her managers as well. As a middle manager, I’d be happy to do something like this – it’s so easy, and makes everyone look good, but it doesn’t come naturally to everyone. It won’t feel organic, but it may change her behavior over time so that she won’t need so much prompting from you in the long run.

       1. +1 to telling your boss specific things they can do to help your team feel valued. I have multiple teams that report to me and it can be frustrating to receive feedback that one doesn’t feel valued when you think you’re already doing all the things to demonstrate that you do appreciate them (raises, e-mail shout outs, etc.) – it’s really helpful when someone says, “it would mean a lot to the staff if you _______,” because it’s not always easy for me to intuit that the staff want a *different* e-mail shoutout or a catered lunch or whatever that specific group would appreciate. My preferred way of being recognized is to be left entirely alone (lol) so I have to be intentional about this and any help from the team leads is much appreciated.

    4. +1 to telling your boss specific things they can do to help your team feel valued. I have multiple teams that report to me and it can be frustrating to receive feedback that one doesn’t feel valued when you think you’re already doing all the things to demonstrate that you do appreciate them (raises, e-mail shout outs, etc.) – it’s really helpful when someone says, “it would mean a lot to the staff if you _______,” because it’s not always easy for me to intuit that the staff want a *different* e-mail shoutout or a catered lunch or whatever that specific group would appreciate. My preferred way of being recognized is to be left entirely alone (lol) so I have to be intentional about this and any help from the team leads is much appreciated.

    5. Are you the highest-ranking person in your company in your area? In some ways, that’s an advantage: you can sell your value to the C-suite. You can design the metrics your team is measured by.

    6. I sometimes email my team and my one up (and sometimes 2 up) boss and give public kudos. My boss doesn’t get into the details, and sometimes doesn’t realize the work that goes into something. I like to recognize my team and point out to the seniors that their work should be recognized. That helps all around.

    7. Are you a Millenial?

       This is not a sh1t on millennials post. Many years ago attended corporate training about managing millennials (I’m an older gen X). It says millennials were raised in an education era where teachers were expected to praise them frequently. It was a cultural moment in time and you can’t really undo all that conditioning. The entry level millennials who worked for me were great. But it did require more praising on my part as their manager, and they all seemed to expect a quick series of promotions in recognition for just doing the job. Our company culture really didn’t work that way.

       So, maybe your company’s culture doesn’t work that way either. Doing the job is the expectation. That is not above and beyond. It’s important to manage your own expectations around that as well.

       1. I am not. I am at the tail end of Gen X. Definitely did not grow up with frequent praise.

       2. It’s not a generational thing to want to have your good work acknowledged. Trust me, I know many a Gen X-er who also have this complaint about their workplaces. It also doesn’t mean that people like OP are expecting a gold star for everything they do.

    8. I think this is just marcomm life. We’re only noticed when we screw up. When things go well, they take us for granted. Solidarity.
       But as others said, if you’re getting stellar evaluations and good raises, you ARE being appreciated. As Don Draper said “that’s what the money is for!”

       1. I appreciate the gut check.

11. I’m genuinely puzzled – why do protesters (of any stripe) think that shutting down a major freeway during rush hour is a legitimate form of protest that will raise positive awareness for an issue? Beyond the major risks, like ambulances not being able to get through and people being unable to get to their jobs or care for family, nothing pisses people off more than traffic jams – I can’t think of a faster way to drive away allies. Who thinks this is a good idea and why does it keep happening in California?

    1. There are activists who believe any awareness raising activity is good because it gives them a platform. Another example is the people who throw soup or paint on works of art to protest (?) climate change.

       I’m not sure I think it’s always a good strategy! But that is often the rationale.

       1. I think it’s a terrible strategy. There was a teacher strike in my school district when I was in junior high. The whole school spent the many days of the strike just sitting in the outdoor cafeteria or the auditorium being supervised by a handful of administrators. That experience made me anti-union for life, even though as someone who has studied economics I should rationally support unions because they are supposed to equalize power imbalances between the employer and the employees.

          1. Unions are essential for labour protections especially as the income gap continues to grow. If your comment was in good faith, I would suggest you try and look past your own experience and evolve. Perhaps look into how unions operate globally like the current Tesla/Swedish unions conflict.

             1. The point is that these protestors are causing human costs that are unjustifiable and will hurt their cause.

             2. Okay so it was just a dog whistle, sorry didn’t pick up on that

          2. I’d give your experience an “adult” reality check now. You were frustrated and annoyed at sitting idly. I guarantee your teachers at the time were far more frustrated by not having income to feed their own families and risk of losing a job and having it impact the entire career they trained for. Then maybe think on why a group might be willing to do all that. Part of growing up is realizing you’re now an adult who can think and reason and move beyond the wrongs of childhood.

             1. Speaking for myself, my adult perspective has made me a much harsher judge of my school experience! I had some good teachers, which I’m grateful for, but I would hate for them to be treated as interchangeable with colleagues who shouldn’t have been teaching at all.

             2. this

          3. I once viewed The Room, should I now be anti-film?

          4. A lot of people who support unions oppose teacher and police unions in particular.

             1. This is me. I don’t think any positions funded through taxpayer dollars should be unionized. There are elected positions those people can get their candidates into to to help solve those problems, and very high bars for transparency around their employment conditions. Unions are for employees of private corporations who do not have the same access to the levers of power that affect their jobs.

          5. I had the same experience, Anonymous at 11:04. When I was in middle school, my district had “selective strikes.” We woke up every morning for months not knowing whether I would have class or not. In theory, that’s cool as a kid, but it was stressful for parents and we had to go to school until June 30 to make up for it – though we still didn’t actually meet the minimum number of required days for instruction and had to get dispensation from the state to each move up a grade. So insane. It has also made me vehemently anti-union.

    2. Is this really so very different from other protests? Big marches that shut down the city, labor strikes that lead to canceled trains and planes, rescheduled appointments, and backlogs at container shipping docks?
       Creating disruption is part and parcel of protest. Creating inconvenience for all parties involved. Making everyone talk about the issue. Yes people get pissed off but it’s the price of admission.

       1. One thing that’s different about marches is that they’re typically planned and announced in advance – like the Women’s March. Then anyone who doesn’t want to be involved has warning and can try to avoid it.

       2. At least labor strikes are directly related to the industry that’s being protested. A train union strike that disrupts train travel or shipping directly shows how much society and individuals rely on trains and therefore is a useful bargaining chip for contract negotiations. Shutting down a freeway during rush hour isn’t tied directly to Israel / Palestine, for example.

          Personally, I am very against any protest that shuts down major roadways because it can have health and life safety implications (like causing delays for ambulances or fire trucks).

       3. Marches almost always have a permit. The shutdown is at least paid for by the org, arranged in advance, and has a definite end time. It’s more like having a marathon in the city than shutting down a highway: might not be anything you GAF about, but it’s a valid use of city resources.

          1. You know many groups have been denied permits before, right?

       4. The problem being that anyone who is on the fence is now much less likely to be on the side of the protesters.

          And while protests always cause disruption, planned protests that are announced in advance, cause much, much less.

          Signed: someone who was in downtown LA, and completely sympathizes with OP point!

       5. Don’t forget big sportsball events! Those can cause some epic traffic jams!

          1. I like sportsball even less than protests, partly for this reason.

          2. Anyone who is paying attention knows in advance that the Chargers/Rams/Lakers/Kings are playing, what time and what freeways are being impacted. People in LA and incredibly sensitive to anything that might impact traffic.

             I do not have an issue with protests as long as they do not block emergency vehicles (speaking as someone who once attended one where someone had a heart attack and issues trying to get an ambulance in probably killed him). But storming a freeway in the middle of the day without any warning just massively inconvenienced thousands of people who have no involvement in government policy and (to the extent those people did not have strong feelings) did not leave them with warm fuzzy feelings toward the protesters or their cause. It was counterproductive and dangerous.

             1. Try living near a football stadium, causing hours long traffic jams.

    3. If the protest is for racial justice, for example, it comes off as r@cist (assuming good intentions, though!) to suggest that the hypothetical ambulance (which have historically prioritized white bodies over POC, LBGTQIA2S+, and other historically marginalized groups) is more important that the protest. Similar considerations justify this kind of protest for (most) progressive causes.

       1. Oh boy. I have no problem whatsoever defending the ambulance (and whomever it may carry, no matter their race) over college students chanting with their faces masked. No one should have to die in pain in a moving vehicle so as not to disturb that group.

       2. This argument suggests that cutting off your nose to spit your face is reasonable. Could racial justice protestors shut off all access to hospitals? Could they close all schools because of educational disparities? It would be a catastrophe for many people, and the argument that the catastrophe would disproportionately effect one racial group would not justify the action.

       3. Yeah, I saw a photo of the shut-down freeway from the other day, and there were two yellow school buses caught right near the front of the traffic jam. Pretty sure they weren’t full of white kids.

    4. Real protest rarely happens in a convenient way. I think you’re thinking cheerleading or advocacy for an issue. Most protest is disruptive, that’s part of the point.

       1. +1 plus we’re all here talking about it, so it’s clearly more impactful than a permitted march

          1. Sure, we are talking about it, but has anyone actually decided to support the cause because a highway was blocked? I sincerely doubt it. People either already supported the cause or didn’t, and now some people are just annoyed.

       2. Thank you for saying it better than I could. If letter writing, speaking at meetings, contacting representatives and planned rallies actually worked, there’d be no need for anything more disruptive. Sadly, that’s not the world we live in and so many people/groups with legit grievances are routinely ignored when they advocate for change via the “proper” channels and vilified when they do something like this. What other non-violent option is there?

          1. You can still do disruptive protests – but maybe at a park or a beach or in a millionaire’s driveway. Not on a major highway or a bridge.

             1. As long as it disrupts someone else?

       3. +1

       4. +1 the point is disruption to get media attention, and I’m ok with that. Protest isn’t convenient.

    5. For attention. Obviously. They want to bring attention to how upset they are about whatever the issue is. And it works. These things get major media coverage.

       1. I had no idea there was a protest until I read this post, and then I went to go look it up on Google News. So…

          1. So it worked.

    6. I think it’s horrible. It’s also horrible to turn up at people’s homes. And to deface art.

12. I m hosting a happy hour at my house and am looking for 1-2 warm appetizers that are easy to prepare for a terrible cook (me) that will already be bustling around getting everything ready guests’ arrival. I’ll also have a charcuterie board and chips/pita with dip + wine. I am not above getting something premade, just want to have an app with little bit more substance since folks will be drinking and having so much fun! TIA!

    1. Hit up the frozen section at your grocery store…meatballs, spring rolls, etc.

       1. You can’t go wrong with frozen meatballs in bottled barbeque sauce, in a slow cooker. Easy peasy and everyone loves that.

          1. Also frozen meatballs in grape jelly/chili sauce. Sounds weird but everybody loves it. https://www.allrecipes.com/recipe/239824/grape-jelly-meatballs/

       2. Trader Joe’s excels in this category.

    2. I have a recipe for spinach cheese squares that is easy and delicious. It’s two packages of frozen spinach, a pound of grated jack cheese, a cup each of flour and milk, two beaten eggs, and a teaspoon each of baking powder and salt. Mix everything together and bake in a greased 13×9 pan at 350 for 45-50 minutes.

       1. My reply additional comment is stuck in moderation, so I’ll try again – I forgot to add a stick of butter to this recipe – melted or at least soft enough to mix in easily. How could I forget the butter!?

    3. Shoot – for spinach cheese square recipe I knew I’d forget something! Also a stick of butter. Of course, because it’s the holidays.

    4. Costco has some wonderful options. Their mini quiches, mini tarts, and the like are actually good.

    5. Crock pot meatballs! Look up the recipe online. Always a crowd pleaser!

13. Anyone here feel like they are objectively well off but do not live like a well off person at all? Why – like is it due to where you live, money anxiety, just not liking the fancy life, something else?

    If you wanted to start to enjoy your wealth – or you have done so – what are things you’ve done to make use of it in ways you enjoy?

    1. I don’t know about “well off”, but I’ve been living well below my means and in a manner not commiserate with that of my peers for probably twenty years.

       For me, it reduces stress and anxiety based from finances. Also, it made the financial split part of a divorce pretty easy, as we both got to continue living at the level we had been and did not suffer a lifestyle reduction as a result of divorce. I anticipate the same happening with regard to retirement in a few years.

       My work life is such that there is no benefit derived from maintaining an expensive lifestyle. I do not have clients or superiors that I need to impress with my clothing, vehicle, or home. That together with a personal preference for low key, well made, classic things has made this pretty easy for me. I do indulge in expensive shoes, Creed perfume, pricy coffee beans annd coffe paraphernalia, and a well built reliable car. I anticipate living it up in retirement and spending some of the extra funds on travel, spa stays, and yoga retreats, as well as giving more generously to certain causes and organizations.

       1. This reads like it was written by ChatGPT.

          1. ChatGPT would not have used commiserate for commensurate

    2. Yes, I do. Specifically, I feel like DH and I should have more cash in our checking account based on the numbers that show up as our gross pay on our W-2s. But, 35% of our gross income goes to taxes, 15% to retirement, plus we pay about $20,000 a year for child care for one kid and are putting aside money for kiddo’s college, and are making our final student loan payments.

       Before anyone jumps down my throat, I recognize it is very privileged to be able to do all of these things. I am not complaining, DH and and I are the ones who are choosing to fully fund retirement accounts, are the ones who went to law school and incurred student loans, who are also choosing to fund our child’s college and give generously to charity. I’m simply saying that when you take these items out of our gross pay and then do things like pay our utility bills and mortgage and buy groceries, there is simply less cash money in my checking account than I would have thought given how much we both make. So, the number says I am well off, I just always envision that if I made this much money, I’d live in a giant mansion and drive a new car every year and wear fabulous diamonds (okay, maybe this was a vision from many decades ago after watching the movie Blank Check too many times).

       Instead, we take one week long really ncie vacation a year and don’t skimp on the accommodations. That’s one way how we’re enjoying our wealth now.

    3. For me, travel was the easiest and most natural way to start living large, so to speak. We still live a very modest lifestyle in a lot of ways (no interest in upgrading our relatively modest house, we drive 15-20 year old cars, we live in a small city so there’s a limit to what we can spend on entertainment locally because we don’t have fancy restaurants or opera/ballet here, etc.) but as we’ve gotten older and more financially settled, we are traveling much more frequently and choosing business class tickets and luxury hotels more often.

    4. Living below my means does not mean I don’t enjoy my wealth. I very much enjoy being objectively well off and, having been both poor and not poor, will take not-poor any day. My husband and I bought far less house than we could afford, and we drive decidedly middle-class (and old) cars, but we spent with abandon on kids’ activities when they were at home, give freely to several charitable and religious causes, paid for our kids’ college and some of their grad school expenses, and upsized as empty nesters so we will have space to house our kids and their eventual families if they visit. We also partially support a couple of additional college-aged kids besides our own, to the tune of thousands of dollars a year. Yes, there are times I wish everyone were off of my payroll so I could remodel my kitchen, but it would be wrong to say we don’t enjoy our money.

    5. I live below my means, but the peace of mind is an important way that I enjoy what I have. I have solid savings and I feel that I could take another job if mine suddenly went away or turned out to be less fulfilling. Feeling like I have options and am prepared for a lot of things that life throws at me is my jam. It might sound boring but you do you.
       Another factor is that I am keenly aware of my environmental footprint and spending less is a decent proxy for having lower emissions.

14. Long story… I have 7 bankers boxes of misc paper in my office. I was out of state most of this summer handling another partner’s case emergency. 2-3 boxes are from that case – like “we don’t have a shredder, shove it in that envelope getting shipped back to the office” or “we don’t need this now because we decided not to use it” stuff. 2ish boxes are any hard copy mail that was deemed not urgent. The rest is either my handwritten notes on notebooks that needs to get scanned in, or … I don’t know.

    I share an assistant with several other attorneys so I really need to be the sorter here, only I know what can get shredded. She can scan and file anything once I get it organized. Any tips for tackling this in an efficient but fast manner?

    1. Make piles marked with post-it notes or signs, dive in, and get started. There’s just no way through it but through it.

    2. I work well with this kind of thing by grabbing a handful once a day and sorting through it. Then tomorrow I do the same thing. That gets me past the overwhelming task of 7 boxes to go through. Usually I get into a roll with it and start grabbing two handfuls. But even if you don’t, you may be surprised by how much you can get done in five or 10 minutes a day.

    3. Make sure you’ve blocked time off for it so you don’t get hit with interruptions or distractions.

    4. For me, the answer is to claim a conference room and start making stacks and a shred pile. I have used t-shirt sorters with labels for this when I had a lot of different piles and planned to retain some of the paper, but you could just use sticky notes. I’d do this all at once, probably in the evening or on a weekend, but that’s me.

    5. I would block off a day planning to do nothing but this, and warn the assistant who will be doing the shredding/scanning in advance. Wear comfier than usual clothes, bring a large coffee, turn on some music, turn off email notifications, and do nothing but this until it’s done. Then celebrate.

       Earlier in my career, when more stuff I dealt with was paper based, I’ve had days when I had to do this (except I was junior enough that I had to do all the scanning/filing/shredding myself), and for me it only worked if I made a day of it.

15. Anyone have experience with the Quince shearling bomber jacket? It was just restocked and I’m wondering about fit, sizing, quality, timelessness, etc.

    1. https://www.quince.com/women/100-shearling-bomber-jacket?color=black&utm_medium=email&utm_source=flow&utm_campaign=220824_email_siteTrigger_bis_waitList_email1&utm_content=iterableCampaign_220824_email_siteTrigger_bis_waitList_email1&campaignid=7268710

       1. No experience with this jacket but it sure looks lovely!

    2. I don’t have this bomber’s jacket… But I do have a classic leather one, very well made.

       I do love my leather jackets, and shearling…

       This style does come in/out of fashion more, as it is so oversized/bulky and the silhouette works better on some frames/personal preferences than others. So while it is Timeless (and it will come in/out of trendiness), you may change how you like it on your frame overtime. Also, I found the good quality coats of this type actually kind of heavy for me. Not warm… but physically heavy! I wanted to get it off me. So I wear it very rarely.

16. I have a question prompted by the infant baptism question. I would like to rejoin a church. It’s something that has been on my mind for a few years. I was raised Catholic but haven’t actively practiced since college. I would prefer not to go back to the Catholic church, but I don’t really know how to go about finding a new church. I live in NYC and there are a ton of churches near me – I’m curious as to how people in similar situations explored other denominations, found their church, etc.

    1. Whiskeypalian — all the pomp; half the guilt is the joke, but it’s essentially Catholic-lite and will feel familiar (lots of sit-stand-kneel; we took your good hymns with us).

       1. Lol yes I don’t want to be annoying to recovering Catholics that they should try out an Episcopal Church, but I do think it’s a great option for former Catholics. I always say we’re Catholic-lite (both with the liturgy and some beliefs) but we’re welcoming and affirming to all!

       2. Thirding this opinion.

       3. Definitely this. My family members who are still religious went from Catholic to Episcopalian. Bonus, they allow women priests!

       4. I’m Catholic, but when I was a kid, I asked my mom what an Episcopalian was and after she explained it, I said “that sounds way better than Catholicism, why aren’t we doing that?” My parents have a good sense of humor around religion, luckily, and it became a running joke for years

    2. I think a good starting point is to examine your social values (role of women, support for LGBTQIA community, amount of service work being done) and what you value in religion / doctrine (what type of liturgy do you like, do you prefer weekly Eucharist, do you want there to be flexibility in personal beliefs, salvation via grace / faith / works, importance of sacraments, infant vs. adult baptism).

       Once you determine which denomination(s) might suit you, you can try out different churches to find the right church for you.

       1. And beyond the denominations themselves, you can learn a lot by just reading the “about us” section of the church websites. Do they say that they are welcoming to all? Do they have a children’s service or specifically talk about outreach to families (if that’s important to you)? Do they actively promote their service in the community? If LGBTQIA support is important to you, they list affirming churches on gaychurch.org.

    3. I’m a lifelong Methodist. We have a lot of former Catholics in our church. It is so much less rule-bound. Love Jesus? You’re cool with us.

    4. Useful Charts has a good YouTube video about Christian denominations and what they each believe and how they splintered (I get confused with the various Churches of Christ — aren’t they all churches of Christ?!). Do you like alcohol? Do you like music with instruments? IT MATTERS.

       1. Narrowing down denominations isn’t hard, it’s finding a particular church that feels right that is going to be more difficult.

    5. I would start by going to the services. See what clicks and feels right. Just show up, sit, consider the homily, consider the atmosphere. Eventually, you will find something you like.

    6. Try an Episcopalian Church in your neighborhood — all are welcome! Be alert for whether it is a super-conservative “Anglican” church, or more liberal mainline church.

    7. What neighborhood are you in? We might be able to give recs.

    8. I am a former Catholic and enjoy our new Lutheran church. It has some of the feel of a Catholic mass without being as conservative.

       A good friend also told me to look at a prospective church’s website. That blew my mind because the last time I went to church there were not websites for everything.

       A church’s website will give you a good idea of their foundational belief systems.

       I ruled out a church as too conservative based on their website. The website very clearly stated where they stood on hot button issues which were too conservative for my tastes even though they had a good community presence and good programs for my kids.

    9. I would recommend an Episocpal church in your shoes. If you’re close to the UES, St. James on 71 and Madison is great.

    10. Another lapsed/culturally Catholic here who is intrigued. I honestly don’t have any friends who are Episcopalian and don’t know anything about the faith. I’m inspired to look it up!

    11. Following! I was always a C/E Catholic, got married in the Catholic Church- but ever since my divorce, I just don’t feel like I want to go back, knowing that I’m not “supposed to” take communion and that the church looks down on my divorce (which I am absolutely happy with and was the right decision for me). I want my future children to have some sort of religion, but can’t see that being Catholic…

        1. FWIW, my family member was married outside of the Catholic church when she was young. Married 20 years with a child. Eventually divorced and later completed her first communion and confirmation in the church because she wanted to. She also got her marriage annulled in the eyes of the church. I’m not sure on what grounds but it was not a big hassle. Then she met the man of her dreams and recently married within the church. I’m sure it’s church dependent but her parish was fairly open and not judgmental about it.

           I share just to give some recent experience on this.

17. Has anyone ever been in a relationship with a dismissive avoidant? Was recently broken up with and still reeling a bit. Was convinced he was the one but have been doing a lot reading on attachment and he is a clear dismissive avoidant. Just wondering how others coped with the sadness.

    1. Be glad for the bullet you dodged? Sorry, I know that’s not helpful when you’re hurting. But if you look at how the relationship might’ve evolved over the next 5, 10 years and beyond, it would not be all rosy.

    2. Not in a romantic relationship, but my single parent was this way, and because of some serious shared trauma i always felt very close/attached to them and didn’t really have any other meaningful relationships in my life until adulthood, so it mattered a lot to me. The thing that worked best for me was just letting myself sit in the sadness and not trying to do anything about it. (I had many unexpected ugly crying sessions for example) It eventually passed, and quicker than I expected. Now sometimes i feel a little wistful sometimes but it just doesn’t have the resonance it used to.

    3. Here’s a different take, not sure if it applies to you: I can be a dismissive avoidant, with the end result that a lot of men were absolutely convinced I was The One for them. Reason is, I give a lot of emotional support but find it almost impossible to ask for any in return. If I did ask, my needs didn’t get met (huh, shocking). Apparently, it’s pretty awesome to be the other person in that relationship, even if it was soul-shattering to me.

    4. I think coping with the sadness is going to be the same as any other breakup. The only way out is through.

    5. Yes. And 18 months after we broke up, I met the love of my life. He is not what you want.

    6. My ex was an avoidant and also took me through a textbook lovebomb-devalue-discard cycle. It hurts like an SOB so I am so sorry you’re going through something similar. I too was convinced my ex was the one and I was completely blindsided when he ended things (and got a new girlfriend a month later–ha!). Something that helped me break away from the constant ruminating was reframing it as “The tragedy here isn’t that I lost “The One”, the tragedy is that a person I loved and wanted to make it work with turned out not to be the person I thought they were.” There’s disappointment and deep sadness in that too, but it ultimately feels better than mourning losing “the one”

       In terms of coping with sadness, I was really, really upset for a long time and beat myself up for being so sad which just made it worse. I also tried to rush past the sadness and get to “being better” really quickly and that wasn’t good. It’s going to suck–just let it suck. I made a list of things I could do when I started to feel myself getting into a “sadness hole”–cleaning my house, going for a walk, picking up fresh flowers at the store, etc. Just something to snap yourself out of it. It’ll take a long time to get over and that’s okay–you will get over it. It’ll take a long time though and that’s okay.

       A plug for Heal With Darlene on youtube and tiktok. Her content is fantastic. I actually did a paid 1:1 session with her when I was at my lowest and it helped a lot, but her free content is a great place to start.

       1. Thank you, all. Very helpful.

18. I was on a “get to know our new team” call the other day and something happened I’m still thinking over. Our company and org has been undergoing RIFs and re-orgs and it’s been chaotic and tough for all of us. I’m personally on Boss #3 in 3 months and this 3rd is an interim boss so a fourth is likely. Just to set the stage.
    The call was a casual all-hands where we went around and introduced the members of our two working teams with a quick name/role/fun fact. It was on Zoom, no cameras required. This is like my 5th of these “new team! let’s spend 45 minutes learning about coworkers’ children!” but whatever.
    Personally and privately I find this kind of thing time wasting and eye-roll-y but I play along.
    However, two people gave responses that took me aback.
    One said about their fun fact “I have bad luck, let’s just leave it at that” um…okay? I mean, I get being down and maybe resentful of having to attend a call but oof. That was an immediate downer and felt very tonally odd.
    Another was audibly struggling and seemed to be almost having a panic reaction and said she doesn’t “do well” with “these kind of things” and could barely get her name/role out and explained she would be skipping the fun fact because she “just can’t”. For all the words she used she could have just made up something!
    These were not anxious first-job-post-college 22 year old’s! I get that anxiety and depression can strike anyone but am I alone in thinking that this was unprofessional–and even weird?
    I am 45 and I know I can be critical and judgmental but it seems like there’s this complete erosion of professionalism as an idea in the workplace.
    This is one of a few examples that come to mind–another would be a day I stopped in the office and saw people in dirty windbreakers and sport sandals and sweatpants. This is a Fortune 10 company!
    I don’t want to be there either! I’m rolling my eyes and I couldn’t care LESS about your precious Snookums who’s your “entire reason for living” especially when I’m going to be re-org-ed off the team in a month anyway! But I feel like it’s not okay to make other people uncomfortable or grind the meeting to a halt to air your personal stuff out like that.
    Anyhoo, what’s y’all’s take on this?

    1. Ugh, maybe it shouldn’t but this kind of thing bothers me too. I don’t care so much about the clothes, but if you’re in a professional setting, you should be adept at professionalism in meetings. That includes being able to churn out a quick generic icebreaker, slap a smile on your face, use video for at least part of the meeting, chat with another meeting attendee while you wait for others to arrive, and so on. Meetings are not a time to air your trauma (something we’ve had issues with at my office) and your career WILL be held back if you can’t manage to say “hello, how are you.” That’s kindergarten-level, sorry.

       1. I totally agree. My boss is famously late whether the meeting is in person or Zoom. I often become the “meet and great” person in the meeting while we all wait for his highness to join us. It is so elementary and I’m always shocked at folks that don’t have the professionalism to play along.

    2. Did these people who didn’t want to do the fun fact just get secretly laid off?

       1. That is what I’d also assume. Or maybe something slightly less dramatic but still pretty upsetting, like they found out their manager or a close co-worker is being let go?

          I’ve worked at companies going through similar upheaval (is this VMWare-Broadcom by any chance?) and it’s really f-ing hard. Show them some grace and assume this isn’t how they’d normally answer the Q.

          1. Yeah it sounds like morale is in the tank and some people are less inclined to mask how they feel.

    3. Life gets a lot more enjoyable, and it’s much easier to make friends, when you stop being so judgmental about every little thing other people do that doesn’t fall into your narrow idea of what constitutes “acceptable behavior.” Something to consider.

       1. Society runs on professional and personal norms. We could say “you do you, awesome!!!” when Joe shows up and mumbles expletives instead of a fun fact or we could have higher expectations for basic courtesies that make the world go round.

          1. Or we could end “fun fact” nonsense forever!

       2. With all due respect, I disagree. Not with the whole concept, but what you’re saying generally applies to social and private lives. Work is a place where most people have to make compromises in how they behave. I don’t think it’s off the wall judgmental and “making my life harder” to be taken aback and a little put off by someone airing out personal trauma and being unable to find professionalism for 30 seconds on a routine meeting.

       3. Hard disagree to this comment in this context.

       4. Agreed. Especially when the company is going through this level of turmoil. Of course they’re acting weird… it’s a weird time!

    4. I think those fun fact type of things are atrocious but everyone should be able to say something pleasant and move on.

       you seem really worked up about this though- like this behavior I might talk to a friend who was in the same meeting on the side and say “what was up with Jim’s bad luck thing? did he just have a deal tank?” but no more than that!

       1. Eh, I wouldn’t say “worked up”–it’s just something I haven’t really encountered before and this was an intro meeting and it’s been on my mind since. I could maybe see this type of thing squeaking by in a small weekly team meeting where we all know one another and have bonded but *this* is your *first impression*?
          I don’t know the people who gave those odd reactions during the meeting–that’s the whole thing! We’re all relatively new to one another so this was a “let’s all get to know one another!” meeting.
          I might very well be over-reacting but part of me is frustrated because I’m autistic and I feel I get negative reactions and have been held back at my job for non-standard behavior and reactions and I’ve worked *really* hard to build a “normal person” facade so maybe I do feel a bit salty when someone else like…lets it all hang out with no apparent consequences. It’s very possible.

    5. They are weird.

       Fun fact things are dumb but it’s low hanging fruit on the scale of helping people to get to know/remember their coworkers. It’s like office 101 to name a fun fact like a favorite sport, last country you visited, some hobby you have. Like just say
       ‘I sing in a choir/I like to cook Thai food/I speak 3 languages/I visited the Grand Canyon last year. Literally anything and then the move onto the next person. Not hard.

    6. If two people were visibly upset and couldn’t cobble together responses I would assume that something Very Very Bad had happened in a meeting that ended 5 minutes ago and they were still shell-shocked. If that’s not the case, then they must be some of the people who occasionally post here to complain that all polite chitchat, such as “how was your weekend?”, is intrusive and somehow biased.

    7. Wow how dare someone going through massive RIFs and Reorgs be a little down. At least she was honest.

       1. Right?!

       2. A little down is a brusque response or stepping away for a moment – not beginning a panic attack when asked your name.

       3. I’m going through those same things too–and I have personal stuff and upsetting stuff going on–we all do. It doesn’t take a Herculean effort to avoid saying a weird personal thing instead of a bland, vague statement or avoid a public panic meltdown. The panic meltdown wasn’t about the RIF and/or reorgs. The person on the call specifically said “I don’t do well with these things” meaning large group meetings where people are slightly on the spot to share a “fun fact”, not “I’m struggling due to the chaos”.

          Leaving that aside, people didn’t ask “how are you”. They asked for a “fun fact” (yes, it’s irritating as hell, I agree). “I have bad luck” in a flat, depressed tone is a pretty clear flouting and attempted spiking of the purpose of that. “I can’t do this” with a flailing freak out is also a pretty out-there response to a request to **introduce yourself** on a simple call.

          Like…don’t attend the meeting. Go on mute or dip out with a BRB! note. Talk to your manager and explain that you’re anxious or whatever and ask if you can skip this round.

          1. +1000.

          2. Okay, that’s you. Sometimes it does take a Herculean effort.

    8. I don’t know if the bad luck guy said it in a very sad kind of way, but I was thinking if you delivered it neutral-ish, it could just mean lighter stuff like the bird always poops on my head, and I just dropped my phone in the toilet.
       I have nothing for spinning the other one though, agree that they maybe had bad news that you weren’t privvy to.

       1. Yeah, it depends on the person but I know people who could deliver that line in a way that everyone would laugh and think it was hilarious.

19. Just broke up with partner of four years. I think its for the best in the long term but I’m struggling with how to cope and how to function including eating and sleeping. Any advice appreciated.

    1. Congratulations for doing what’s best for you in the long term! Give yourself grace at this time, especially in the holiday season when everyone else seems so happy and whatnot.

       Whenever I get depressed and have no appetite, I try to bribe myself with some kind of treat, whether ordering takeout or I including something in my meal that I usually crave (mac n cheese, for example). I figure anything is better than not eating at all. I also try to schedule things with friends to get me off the couch and away from my moping for a while, while making sure I’m giving myself plenty of time to recover and mourn both the loss of the past relationship and the future you thought you would have with them.

       It takes time, but you will get through this!

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