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I’ve heard good things about these Florian tops from Mille. (And by “heard good things,” I mean I’ve seen a few different people in my Instagram feed wearing them and they look cute. I’ve never professed to be immune to social media influence.)
The top is made of a cotton/viscose blend, which looks breezy and light, but still slightly more substantial than a summer linen top. I love this emerald green color, but it also comes in a wide range, including lilac, marigold, and orchid.
I would wear this tucked into a pair of high-waisted pants or a pencil skirt for the office, or over a pair of leggings on a work-from-home day.
The top is $152 and is available in sizes XXS–XL. Florian Top
Sales of note for 10.10.24
- Nordstrom – Extra 25% off clearance (through 10/14); there's a lot from reader favorites like Boss, FARM Rio, Marc Fisher LTD, AGL, and more. Plus: free 2-day shipping, and cardmembers earn 6x points per dollar (3X the points on beauty).
- Ann Taylor – Extra 50% off sale (ends 10/12)
- Banana Republic Factory – Up to 50% off everything plus extra 25% off your $125+ purchase
- Boden – 10% off new styles with code; free shipping over $75
- Eloquii – Extra 50% off a lot of sale items, with code
- J.Crew – 40% off sitewide
- J.Crew Factory – 50% off entire site, plus extra 25% off orders $150+
- Lo & Sons – Fall Sale, up to 35% off
- M.M.LaFleur – Save 25% sitewide
- Neiman Marcus – Sale on sale, up to 85% off
- Spanx – Lots of workwear on sale, some up to 70% off
- Talbots – 50% off 2+ markdowns
- Target – Circle week, deals on 1000s of items
- White House Black Market – Buy one, get one – 50% off full price styles
Sales of note for 10.10.24
- Nordstrom – Extra 25% off clearance (through 10/14); there's a lot from reader favorites like Boss, FARM Rio, Marc Fisher LTD, AGL, and more. Plus: free 2-day shipping, and cardmembers earn 6x points per dollar (3X the points on beauty).
- Ann Taylor – Extra 50% off sale (ends 10/12)
- Banana Republic Factory – Up to 50% off everything plus extra 25% off your $125+ purchase
- Boden – 10% off new styles with code; free shipping over $75
- Eloquii – Extra 50% off a lot of sale items, with code
- J.Crew – 40% off sitewide
- J.Crew Factory – 50% off entire site, plus extra 25% off orders $150+
- Lo & Sons – Fall Sale, up to 35% off
- M.M.LaFleur – Save 25% sitewide
- Neiman Marcus – Sale on sale, up to 85% off
- Spanx – Lots of workwear on sale, some up to 70% off
- Talbots – 50% off 2+ markdowns
- Target – Circle week, deals on 1000s of items
- White House Black Market – Buy one, get one – 50% off full price styles
And some of our latest threadjacks here at Corporette (reader questions and commentary) — see more here!
Some of our latest threadjacks include:
- What to say to friends and family who threaten to not vote?
- What boots do you expect to wear this fall and winter?
- What beauty treatments do you do on a regular basis to look polished?
- Can I skip the annual family event my workplace holds, even if I'm a manager?
- What small steps can I take today to get myself a little more “together” and not feel so frazzled all of the time?
- The oldest daughter is America's social safety net — change my mind…
- What have you lost your taste for as you've aged?
- Tell me about your favorite adventure travels…
Anon
Gorgeous top.
Ellen
Yes, but the model should not be as unbuttoned as she is. The top button is fine to be unbuttoned, but not the second button. Granted, she is not overly endowed, but we should be making sure we are not doing anything to encourage the male dirtbags into trying to be peeking in with their pencils, like Frank STILL does at work with me. FOOEY on that!
Anon
hi hive! seeking (post-covid) wedding input—if not your thing, please scroll by.
My 160 person wedding was a victim of 2020. We got married in a tiny ceremony during the year anyways, but still want to throw the big 160 person party (we had paid for basically everything and planned eveything, and also I am very aware that a wedding celebration is really the one chance in our lives we will have to throw a party like this with all of our extended family and friends). We don’t want to have covid restrictions at the party so obviously this needs to happen once everyone is vaccinated. Would you schedule something like this for November of this year or spring/summer of 2022? Note, we can always reschedule again if it’s not possible (also note, we are not at all contemplating throwing this party until it is absolutely safe and there is no gray area about it—we will not do this until it’s not even a question whether it’s safe).
typing this out, seems like 2022 is the answer…. :(
Anonymous
I would do 2022
Anon
Yeah, unfortunately I think 2022 is the answer. But think of how awesome that party will be once this is truly over.
Anon
summer of 2022. Congrats on your marriage and thank you for behaving responsibly
Anon
+1
Senior Attorney
Yes on both points!
Anon
Is this Anonie again? Really has the feel of one of her posts.
Anonie
Good gracious. No, I am Anonie and have just been skimming, not commenting, in recent months for a variety of reasons including comments like these. (Hello to the MANY very kind and introspective regular commenters though!)
OP, congrats on your marriage! I am truly so very happy for you. I hope you are loving newlywed life :)
My brand-new husband and I are going the December 2021 route for our post-Covid celebration. We ended up eloping and Zooming in our parents and siblings. I have 2 friends getting married this summer, many of whom seem to feel confident that they can move forward. I personally wouldn’t feel comfortable planning anything earlier than fall 2021. 2022 is probably the safest bet. I am comfortable having a smaller guest list if some people choose to decline this December.
Wishing you the best!
Amber
Anonie – I have been wondering about you! Congrats to you and your husband! Your comments are always so kind – glad you are still around!
Anonie
You are sweet! Thanks for the kind words. I will try to pop in from time to time :) I am loving newlywed life. Happy New Year to you! I am feeling optimistic about 2021.
Anon
Well, see yesterday’s discussion on posters coming here for validation, not advice.
Anon
Uh, a lot of time the commenters make false assumptions about OP’s situation, so OP has to clarify. And then people jump down her throat for not taking advice that was based on false assumptions in the first place.
Anon
@ 10:44 a.m., sometimes that’s true. Sometimes it’s not and OP just doubles down on what they want to do.
Anon
You are off your rocker. Seek help.
Anon
+1 no one asked you to be the resident sleuth
Anon
Another vote for 2022. Even if people are vaccinated by a 2021 wedding date, they might not know that they will be vaccinated by then far enough in advance to plan for travel.
Anonymous
This is why I would do 2022. People will prioritize travelling to see family over events with friends. By this fall my kids will not have seen their grandparents on DH’s side in two years. That’s the trip we will take this fall and we wouldn’t have extra vacation days or funds to also attend a wedding celebration if travel was needed.
Anon
+1. And even if in theory you could plan it for November 2021 and push it off again if needed, I say this hopefully kindly, people will get fatigued over having to book and rebook the same travel for the same event a few different times and may end up just not coming to the final real one if it is the 3rd iteration. (Not that your wedding isn’t important to them, but at the end of the day people are human).
Sorry this happened. I feel really bad for you and everyone that had big events like this during this ordeal.
anon
Agreed… I’m finding it hard to keep track of all of the rescheduled weddings my friends are doing. That’s not to say that I wouldn’t ultimately go, but I feel like it would be more stressful for everyone –especially you, as the person planning– to have to worry about whether vaccination is going well enough and then debate whether to reschedule yet again.
Bonnie Kate
+1 to this. I feel that way about all 2021 events and planning – I still don’t know when I’ll be vaccinated, or if the rest of the country will be vaccinated to a high enough level to support less restrictions, so basically I feel nothing is certain. All of my work spring conferences are currently rescheduling to fall 2021, and even that feels chancy. If I received a wedding invitation or save the date right now for any time in late 2021 I wouldn’t know what to do with it.
Anonymous
If you want all your guests there, I would say 2022. If you look at Nov/Dec, I think (hope) things *will* be more normal. I am expecting schools to be fully open for in person learning. I do think masks will be a thing, children won’t be vaccinated, and people will be slowly easing back into normal but probably a little gun-shy about making Big Plans for a maskless event with travel and hotel and eating involved in winter 2021.
LaurenB
Think of it this way — when might you expect to be able to attend a gathering such as a major concert or fully-packed sports stadium? There’s your answer. 2022. The rollout is so slow, and so many whack jobs aren’t going to take the vaccine even when their turn comes — this isn’t going to be a thing of the past anytime soon.
AFT
2022. Although I’m really helpful that everyone who wants to will have been vaccinated by this summer, the issues with rollout has made me concerned that we’re going to continue to deal with it throughout 2021. Also, I think the more “normal” vaccines has become, the less likely you’re going to have to deal with excluding folks who don’t want to vaccinate.
Also, recent sources suggest herd immunity may not come until 2022, so I wouldn’t bother rebooking in 2021. Hope I’m wrong.
Anonymous
Kids won’t be vaccinated this summer. I am pro – vax and I will get it as soon as it’s available, but my kids will not be vaccinated until there is more data. Heck, it isn’t even approved for kids (<16) yet.
Anon
I believe it’s not even being tested on kids younger than 12 yet.
I’m hopeful that we achieve herd immunity first then by the time kids get it it is more like a “check the box” thing to ensure herd immunity stays, like the Polio vaccine.
AFT
Good point – I hadn’t even considered kids, but if you’re including kids in the wedding then 2021 is not gonna happen.
Anon
But my point was more that… I’m personally not keeping my kids locked up until kids are vaccinated, nor do I think that is a reasonable expectation (given it will likely be at least a year+ from now before that even happens). I hope herd immunity happens before then. That combined with the fact that they have been extremely low risk this whole time would make me comfortable with that.
(But for this particular wedding I would still do 2022 for other reasons).
Elegant Giraffe
Is it possible to achieve herd immunity without children being vaccinated? That’s a huge portion of the population, right?
Anon
My brief googling tells me that children under 12 are 15% of the population, and I see we in theory need ~75% of the population vaccinated or otherwise immune in order to be herd immune. So, it’s possible. Especially considering that some of the kids will have had COVID, and at least SOME immunity that goes along with that, so it’s not like 0 of the 15% will have some level of immunity.
But obviously we need most adults to step up and take it.
Regardless though, I am not keeping my kids in a bubble until every last one is vaccinated, especially if it’s because a bunch of yahoo adults aren’t getting the vaccine. That would be going on almost 2 years of their lives in theory. That will have been 2/3 of one of my kids lives. At some point enough is enough.
Cat
2022. Otherwise you’ll spend the rest of 2021 wondering “will we or won’t we” and that just sounds like a stressful way to anticipate what should be a fun party.
Rainbow Hair
This is exactly where I would come down on the question. I would want it far enough out that I was as confident as I could be that the party would happen. I cannot wait until it feels safe to visit my friends and hug them! It’ll be a great party when the time comes.
Congrats on your marriage OP!
CPA Lady
My state is one of the ones doing “better” than others so far in terms of % vaccinated, and the general public under age 45 are not even scheduled to be able to get their first vaccines until September 2021 at the very earliest. Then you have to get your second, then you have to wait a couple weeks. I would definitely not plan any large gatherings for 2021.
Walnut
Sept 2021 is banana crackers. Are we seriously potentially not sending kids back to school in Fall 2021?
ollie
In basically the same boat (150 person 2020 wedding cancelled, got married anyway, and still want to have the big party). We currently have a date held for June 2021 but it’s almost a certainty that we’ll have to postpone it again – I’d rather not push to summer 2022 but that seems safest.
Anonymous
Trust your instincts. You’ve posted about this several times, which is totally fine, but you already seem to know the answer, which is that you cannot have a big wedding anytime soon. I’ve found that I’ve made better decisions this whole pandemic when I’ve relied on my own intuition, sense, and risk tolerance and not tried to crowd-source for more opinions. I not only make safer decisions, but also feel more confident in them. I think that might help you moving forward.
Anon
Yeah so lots of people cancelled weddings, it’s not just one person, maybe don’t.
anon
Seriously. Why do so many people here think they are internet detectives?
Anon
Again, can folks please stop coming here for validation instead of advice? Make a responsible grown up decision and own the consequences for it.
No Face
In my red state, people are very confident relying on their own intuition without seeking more information and talk about how safe they are at the gym, in bars and restaurants, throwing weddings with “only” 100 people indoors without masks, etc. I am very thankful for the posters on this board to counter the messages in my state, which is that there is no need for precautions of any kind.
Anon
As with Anon @ 9:07am above, you are not an internet detective, you have no idea who this anonymous person is, seek help for your delusions.
LaurenB
All these extroverts who simply cannot live without large gatherings are going to be the death of those of us who are perfectly able to celebrate events in smaller groups.
OP Anon
OP here. Thanks for all the helpful input! I am heavily leaning April 2022.
To address a few points:
-I’m not Anonie (she responded above—congratulations on your wedding too!!!)
-I have posted about this once before? Not many times? I’m a regular reader but I don’t read every single comment ever posted so may have missed similar questions or maybe they were asked months ago and circumstances have changed
-I’m not seeking validation, I am truly seeking advice. While there are very obviously bigger things happening, planning and postponing a wedding under all of these circumstances is very emotional, and I wanted a gut check by people who are not emotionally invested. I am the MOST emotionally invested and just need some sound voices who are not involved (my parents, friends, family, vendors all have skin in the game so to speak so it’s difficult). Thank you to everyone who responded!!
No Face
The new cool thing is to pretend that only one person could possibly post about a particular topic, despite a global pandemic that has upended daily life for most people. Only one person could possibly have cancelled their large wedding. Only one person could possibly need advice about camping or hiking for the first time. Only one person needs advice about outdoor exercise in the winter. Etc etc etc.
To be very, very cool, you state that you recognize the person’s syntax and that they have some sort of anxiety problem.
Anonymous
No Face, I’m starting to think you’re our poster who needs tips on what to wear to walk around the block. You certainly seem to be the most passionate about it!
No Face
I’m fine posting under my (fake) name. I haven’t asked for advice on outdoor clothing, but I’ve used many of the tips in those threads. I also never participated in threads about pumping breastmilk at work, but the hour or so I spent reviewing all those threads after my first was born made a huge difference for me and my career. People asking similar questions over and over and over again and getting advice from different posters is a feature of this site, not a bug. I don’t want to self-appointed internet detectives to have a chilling effect.
Anon
I am not No Face, but I wholeheartedly agree. The people who lurk on this board readings every single comment and then pounce on anyone who dares ask a similar question are totally nuts and desperately need to find something else to do with their time.
Anon
I would also use the word pathetic.
Anon
A chilling effect–you’re…worried not enough people will get to post redundant questions about their wedding planning to a fashion blog’s comments section? That’s wild.
Anon
I’ll add to the chorus of 2022, for the different reason that even if it’s perfectly safe to have it in Fall 2021, I do think everyone is going to be playing catch up with other things then (family vacations, work travel, whatever) and may be less likely to want to travel for a wedding celebration.
Anon
Sorry, OP, think you were being confused with Anonie. Anonie came here every few months last year to ask whether she should postpone her 300, now 100, now 50 person wedding. My favorite was when she wanted like 12 people to fly to Sonoma/Napa during the catastrophic fires. The hive had to talk her out of it each time. Sounds like she eventually did the right thing, but it got a little old after a while, since the advice stayed the same, but she kept asking “but what about this plan that is LESS dangerous than my previous plan?”
Anonie
I started exactly 2 different original threads seeking advice about my wedding planning process before I ultimately eloped. I was an active commenter throughout the summer about topics like politics, reading, cooking, fashion, family, friends etc.
But thanks for the reminder on why I decided to step back!
Wishing all the regulars well and a Happy New Year. Yay for Biden, vaccines, and a promising 2021.
Anon
FWIW, I think your questions were all reasonable, and you are definitely not the problem. Buffoons who can’t figure out the collapse button are.
Anon
I love the folks using the terms “buffoons,” “pathetic,” and “delusions” sitting on their moral high horses. The irony is delicious.
Anon
Anonie – I always enjoy reading your comments and hope you keep posting! I love weddings too and didn’t mind the 2 posts that you had about your planning.
Anonie
Anons at 11:50 and 1:36, thank you both!!
Anonymous
OK yeah, I’m the one who made the comment above and I probably did think OP was Anonie, who did come here doing exactly what Anon at 11:28 describes.
No Face
Also, thanks for asking this question. I’m already married, but I plan a few other large scale events throughout the year in normal times. I thought I would be able to plan one by the end of 2021, but I am sticking to virtual for this year based on these comments.
Betsy
2022 for sure. I think responsible people will still be feeling cautious in the late fall, especially leading up for Thanksgiving, even if vaccinations go off without a hitch. And I suspect that by 2022 a lot of the anti-vax holdouts will have seen the light (or contributed to herd immunity by getting covid) whereas I’m not so sure we’ll be there by the end of 2021.
January
Similar boat – we had a bigger wedding in mind, did the tiny 2020 pandemic wedding instead, and have bigger party scheduled for… later… and we have deposits outstanding. Have you checked to see whether November 2021 is even a possibility? I think most things for 2021 booked up quickly due to the constant shuffle of rescheduling, so it may not even be available. Best of luck to you!
Anonymous
2023. I’m not wasting my first post-COVID trip in 2022 on someone else’s wedding.
Anon
ba ha ha ha ha. Touche and well said.
Paging Lilau
I read your post the other day about in-law issues.
Firstly, as my 8yo says, you have to love yourself. If you don’t value yourself enough to take care of yourself and your body, no one else will. Just say no. Being nice is not being a doormat. And we know what happens to doormats….
Secondly, discuss in advance with your husband how you will tackle the in-laws. He has to have your back. And he can’t have your back, if you don’t value yourself, so to speak.
I’m Indian and I can tell you no South Asian parents or inlaws would treat their kids like this. Especially NOT post partum. Or any other time. And I wouldn’t stand for it, neither would anyone I know.
Good luck.
Lilau
Hey-thanks so much! I posted an update just now -so hopefully it shows up. The hive and everyone’s input was super helpful-I had a talk with my husband that I think was successful.
Anon
So glad to see your update! What are some things that you said to your husband that seemed to help, if you don’t mind sharing? I posted on your thread yesterday about being in a similar position. My tactic has been to avoid them as much as possible without being rude, so if they come to visit, I will have an escape plan lol. It was harder on their more recent visit since I am working from home and couldn’t say I had to go to the office to get work done.
Anonymous
Gently, not many people thought or the outcome of her discussion was very successful. She has a husband problem, not an etiquette problem.
Anonymous
Give me your best tips for purging things like handbags and shoes! I have a couple dozen tote bags, backpacks, purses, and around 50 pairs of shoes. I haven’t carried a purse in two years. The spark joy concept isn’t really working, so I’m trying to think practically – keep two handbags, one backpack, one weekend bag, reusable grocery bags for post COVID, donate the rest?
Anon
Dress for Success really, really needs gently-used handbags and shoes. Both of those are hard for them to find. When you look at a handbag or a pair of shoes, ask yourself if you would use it and love using it, or if it would be better used by a young woman struggling to make something of herself.
I would do 5 handbags, one or two tote bags, one backpack, and 3-5 reusable grocery bags.
annette
Oh I love this way of looking at it – you might use it a bit, but someone else could get a lot more from it
Anonymous
I try to think “is this essential” for my day to day? And definitely purge at least one of anything the same color or style (how many black heels do I need, how many evening bags do I really need, etc.)
Anonymous
I feel like if there is one good-for-all seasons evening bag, I need a link to it. This is e unicorn I have often sought without success.
Clementine
I have a vintage black envelope clutch I bought at an antique store to bring with me to prom when I was 16. It’s perfect. There’s a spot where I tie a silk scarf onto to make it ‘summery’ (if needed) and it’s perfect. What really makes it great is that it’s from some fabulous coated leather (thank you 1960’s!) so many a drink has been spilled on this thing and it still looks great. It’s a fairly classic envelope shape with no remarkable hardware or designs, other than a simple black clutch. The other thing that’s nice is that it’s fairly large but flat enough so it’s not bulky. It’s big enough to fit a big iphone into.
Also, if I remember correctly, it was $1.25.
anne-on
As someone who has looked for something like this, those are NOT easy to find, and I am envious you have something so versatile!
Anon
I will differ a bit with the other respondent, though it sounds like she found an amazing bag, and say that I prefer a non-black bag. I tend to wear a lot of non-black neutrals for all events including evening events, so I like a sparkly metallic evening purse. My current one is steel colored, so in the silver/grey family but not too light.
When I had a super busy travel schedule, I had a lot of dinners out that I didn’t want to lug my full tote bag to. I eventually bought a small handbag that packs flat and I stuck it in my suitcase for trips. It was the opposite of the $1.25 find above unfortunately but at this point it has paid for itself. Mine is a Longchamp tassel bag and I bought it at the Longchamp store in Paris. And it’s blue. I’m more of a navy neutral than a black neutral person so it works for me.
Elderlyunicorn
I have a calf hair Clare V foldover clutch that is my all seasons evening bag.
Anonymous
Following also, mainly for purses (shoes are consumables for me, so I toss when worn; Hannibal Lechter impressed on me having good shoes).
For purses, so many are occasion-specific: metallic clutch, black clutch, something more light and summery (I think I have this still — need to check though as last summer I did not need). So many holiday parties in before times. So many evening fun things in the summer — even a couples’ dinner out now would be a treat worth dressing for.
A.
I’d approach this first from a style/wear perspective — with fifty pairs of shoes, I’m guessing some of them have to be showing wear or you have some overlap (ex: how many pairs of black flats do you need? Keep your favorites or those that are most current and donate the rest). Same for purses. For tote bags, when I’m getting rid of totes I use them to give things to friends/family (ex: we pass clothes down from my son to my nephew, so I deliver in reusable totes instead of plastic/paper and then tell them to keep the totes). For purses, I’d also look at wear/duplicates (how many cross body bags do you need?) and keep your favorites/the most current versions.
LaurenB
To build off this, I find that (for example) I might have 8 pairs of black flats, each a little bit worn but all in fine enough condition that I couldn’t justify getting rid of them. So what I do is then put 7 pairs away and just wear the one until it’s worn, at which point I can consider either resoling and keeping, or donating if it still has life in it and could be useful to someone else, but either way I feel that I’ve gotten my money’s worth out of that shoe. Then I take out the next pair and repeat. This helps me get more wear out of things than the 8-pairs-each-with-slight-wear situation.
bluestocking
I like this! I have this situation with a few clothing items and I might try this.
Anon
In general I would hesitate to do a handbag/shoe purge at this moment in time, given the last 9 months have been so incredibly abnormal that for me to decide/remember what I wear in normal life I think would result in me getting rid of things I would honestly regret later (and I am usually a fairly minimalist/Marie Kondo devotee ).
Can you put this off until a few months post pandemic when you have a better sense?
That being said I’m in CA where things have been super restricted this whole time so maybe others are regularly using their stuff more. Also, 24 tote bags is a lot.
Rainbow Hair
I often ask for a new clutch or every-day purse for Xmas or my bday — usually complete with a link to buy it… Something to carry to dinner when I’m traveling for work, or some such. Well, I surprised myself this year by asking for a very casual cross-body bag that I would never, for example, take to work. Then again, when was the last time I went to work? (March 13, 2020, but who’s counting?) For my current lifestyle, where curbside pickup from Target is the big outing of the week, it’s perfect! So I agree that it’s a strange time to make purges, since I’ve forgotten how I used to do things when I left the house with any regularity. (Also in CA.)
Anon
+1. I have no idea which of my work clothes/shoes/bags will return to the rotation when I’m back to the office full time. At the moment, I would totally toss all of them and just wear PJs and maaayyyybe jeans forever.
Cat
If you weren’t using them regularly Before, you’re probably not going to be excited to use them After… I would keep only those you remember using and can actually picture using again, as well as basically all the reusable bags since plastic bags are gradually being phased out.
Aunt Jamesina
I would do a first round cull of shoes and bags (the ones you know you never really used or liked before the pandemic and any that are worn out or outdated) and then hold off on further purging until we resume our regular programming. Whenever that is :-/
Walnut
This would be my strategy as well. Purge the shoes that rub in a weird spot, slip a bit while walking or that you put on, but always end up swapping out before actually leaving the house. Same for handbags – pass along the ones slip off your shoulder weird, don’t have a space to easily slide your cell phone/extra face mask, or just look bulky in the wrong way after adding your essentials.
For tote bags, I would pass along anything with a vendor label.
Anon
I often use “Would I buy it again (given my current life/style/needs)”. The answer is almost always no.
Lilau
Just wanted to give thanks and an update for everyone who chimed in on my issue with my husband/in-laws yesterday. I talked it over with him, it was a tough conversation. Basically he said it was my job to defend myself and he’d have my back if he thought I was in the right but would do all he could to avoid furthering conflict. We both acknowledged that I can overreact to rude behavior after acquiescing for long enough.
Finally, I explained that if his parents thought there would be firm pushback, however respectful and polite, from him they would probably knock it off going forward. For example, his stepdad would not rattle a glass at me if he though my husband might say “Stepdad, she’s not your maid. That is rude.” By contrast he knows that if I said that it would be a showdown about how I was a b*tch to this poor old man and my husband would try to play peacemaker and say we were both wrong and the next time I’d be cowed. He agreed wholeheartedly that that is how it would play out and agreed to take action first going forward. I’m hopeful he will actually do this because he agrees it would serve his goal of less conflict overall.
So again, thanks. Everyone’s comments really helped me sort things out in my head and figure out what was going on.
Anon
Good luck. I hope your husband comes through because nothing is going to change if he doesn’t have your back.
anon
Agree. This is a disappointing resolution. I’m guessing that further discussions will be in your future, Lilau. :( Yeah, you could probably do a better job sticking up for yourself, but the onus here is really on your DH. Is he willing to have a private discussion with his parents about how they treat you, to set the groundwork? In your position, I’d insist on at least that much.
Anon
Yeah, I agree that this is far from an excellent resolution. I guess only time will tell if husband intends to follow through.
Vicky Austin
Hey, that sounds like an excellent resolution. I’m glad your husband was willing to listen and saw your point about the need for pushback from him, too.
Anon
It’s not excellent and I doubt it’s even a resolution. I don’t think DH has done anything to solve this problem.
anne-on
So, I’m glad you had a discussion, and you’ve found a solution that works for you.
But I’m still stuck on ‘my husband would try to play peacemaker and say we were BOTH wrong’ to someone RATTLING A GLASS AT YOU like you’re the maid?!? Wtf. No. If THAT is your dynamic (and your husband admits it!) you still need therapy as your husband is choosing ‘no conflict’ over ‘support my wife’.
Anonymous
Ugh.
Monday
Honestly not even a maid should have to put up with that.
CountC
+1,000
anne-on
Seriously. This is in ‘snapping your fingers to get a waitresses attention’ territory for me…
Anon
“Basically he said it was my job to defend myself and he’d have my back if he thought I was in the right but would do all he could to avoid furthering conflict. ”
This is wrong. It is his job to defend you to his family and friends. It is his job to defend his marriage, not to avoid conflict. It’s his job to defend his marriage, even if it creates a tremendous amount of conflict. You two are married; you’re a new nuclear family.
The secondary issue is that when you first draw boundaries with rude people, they will escalate, get mad, throw a fit, and otherwise try to make those boundaries so uncomfortable that you ditch them to get (very temporary) peace. Long term, the conflict will persist until that boundary is established and respected. Reducing conflict by ignoring the issue only draws out the pain.
The primary issue is that his first priority is his wife and kids. You’re not his middle school girlfriend. You are his wife and the mother of his kids and he needs to treat you accordingly.
Get marriage counseling. This is not a solution.
anonshmanon
I’d also throw into consideration that your dynamic is likely what your kid learns as normal when it comes to spouses and in-laws treating each other.
Monday
Yeah, the sentence quoted here sounded bad to me too. It sounds like he’s still hedging and putting way too much of the onus on you. Also agree that “avoiding conflict” with blatantly rude people usually means just going along with it, and he’s doing this with his parents at your expense. I don’t feel this is resolved either.
Anon
+1 I really, really, really hate that comment from him. His family treats you poorly in front of him? He stands up for you, as far as I’m concerned, whether you speak up or not, whether it creates conflict or not. Full stop.
I was one of the commenters who said it was a mutual problem yesterday – you need to use your own voice, and I still firmly believe that, but if he sees the offensive behavior from his family he should be defending you instantaneously and not waiting for you to make a judgment call about whether this instance is the one you want to challenge or not.
anne-on
This. YOU are his immediate family now and he needs to defend that. My inlaws were NOT in favor of daycare and made snide comments (in my home!) along the lines of ‘I guess that’s what mothers these days do’ and ‘In my day if you wanted to be a mother you’d stay home, not let someone else raise your kids’ etc. I retreated to our bedroom in tears where I read my husband the riot act and told himit was his job to shut this down NOW or his parents could GTFO. He immediately told them it was NOT ok and to knock it off. Those types of comments stopped then and there. If he hadn’t had my back on behavior like that I would have very seriously considered whether I wanted to stay in the relationship long term.
Betsy
Oh boy, I was all ready to give your husband the benefit of the doubt after your first post, but that quote changes my mind. I don’t think you’ve reached a resolution and it doesn’t sound like your husband is going to come through for you. I think marriage counseling would be a very wise idea.
Anon
Avoiding conflict furthers it. This isn’t how boundaries are established and maintained.
Anonymous
I really feel like you can be doing a lot more reflection here. If step-dad rattles his glass, you don’t need to say “that’s rude.” You can also say things like “step-dad if you’d like another drink please help yourself.” You could also ignore his drink rattling and simply continue on with what you are doing.
I find it sad that the conclusion of all of this is just he will try to step up more to avoid conflict and hope you two keep working through this together.
LaurenB
Regardless of what the husband does, I think it would be good for you to practice assertiveness more in these situations, and reflect on what emotions are stirred by the ice-rattling, and practice strategies for how you can take a breath and calmly say, “The drinks are on the bar” or “I’m happy to get you a drink, but please don’t rattle your glass at me” or whatever else might be appropriate. These are just life lessons that too many women don’t ever learn.
Cat
Sorry but this doesn’t sound like your husband is actually going to change. He needs to have your back before you ever need to speak up for yourself. In the glass-rattling example, he should have said “hey dad, refills are in the fridge, help yourself” before you even batted an eyelash.
Anonymous
Disagree, agency exists
Cat
Agency exists, but can be tricky in in-law relationship dynamics. Something that my husband says to his parents in a teasing way can come across lively and joking from him, but if I said the same thing, it would come across rude or combative. Not that it *should* but it *does.*
In this circumstance, it would be great if the in-laws respected OP and didn’t treat her poorly. But they don’t, and they may listen better to their own kid rather than having the husband just stand back and watch to see how she defends herself.
Emma
Lilau, I’m sorry you are going through this. I used to be married to someone who had awful parents and never stood up for me (not saying your in-laws are awful, but his parents were genuinely not good people. Petty, superficial, judgemental, always criticizing. He had his own issues with them but basically was too caught up in his issues to ever pay attention to how they treated me and would shrug and be all “yeah they’re awful, what can I say”.) It’s not the only reason we are no longer together, but honestly, it was a sore subject, especially when we starting planning a wedding and they were completely the worst and he kind of gave in because he was conflict averse. And then he would give me a big speech about how I needed to stand up for myself more. So I’m glad you had a good talk with your husband and really hope he comes
Emma
he comes through, sorry!
Anonymous
Someone would rattle a glass at you and your husband would say you were BOTH wrong?
Sorry, but unless you’re hiding some facts, your husband sounds awful.
Lilau
I really appreciate the board letting me have the space to explore this. You should all charge me for therapy.
To clarify: Some of you have/had been saying that there is a “right” way to deflect rude behavior without escalating the situation. I acknowledge and appreciate that. I also acknowledge and appreciate that I’m not always capable of that in the moment and will say something blunt, sarcastic or cutting rather than the neutral, mature response. It’s a character flaw; I recognize that.
No, my husband didn’t see the glass rattling. He thinks it’s the absurd behavior of a sexist old white guy who should absolutely get his own drink. But he doesn’t understand why it is particularly hurtful to me or why I would have trouble responding in a neutral manner OR why I wouldn’t speak up at all. Again, that’s my issue.
I fully recognize that the solution, wherein he agrees to defend me for purposes of maintaining peace, rather than because it’s his duty, is imperfect. But I am hopeful that it’s practical.
I hear what everyone is saying about it being his job to push back right or wrong. I’m not sure that the marriage I signed up for. If they walk in the door and start spewing insults? Yes, for sure he would push back. This subtle stuff that leads to a conflict? He’ll definitely “both sides” that with a level head and say “oh he was wrong but you should have been less x,y,z.” This is true whether I’m having an issue with an adversary at work or one of my own family members or anyone else. It’s a part of my marriage that I generally appreciate, the honest feedback. It’s just hard in this context.
AnonInfinity
I grew up with a father who did the glass rattling thing, and I learned from a young age that it was my job to fill the glass when someone did that to me and any other response was being rude or was met with derision. I’ve been in therapy for years and still have trouble with boundaries and feeing rude when I’m not an absolute doormat for someone. You are putting a lot of pressure on yourself when you seem to have an expectation that you should always react “perfectly,” or else you’ve railed, and I just wanted to say that I understand what you’re going through and I hope you’re able to make some progress on this issue. It’s really hard work.
Anon
I likewise have sympathy for the husband and OP here. He likely grew up in an awful household. He’s probably still afraid of his parents. He still wants to try to have them in his life. He is walking a tight rope of trying to preserve both relationships.
You can’t expect someone who cowered to their parents their whole life to suddenly stand up to them.
Likewise, if the family dynamic is you just ignore the bad behavior then he’s going to be upset with you when his parents are upset at you for calling them out. It’s how he was raised. Hence the therapy suggestions.
I had to be the one to call out inappropriate behavior in my extended family and now I’m estranged from them. I probably would have done the Irish look the other way if it had been my parents and didn’t want to lose them.
Anon
I should add I would have only been able to do the “ignore” tactic because I see them only a few times a year. This wouldn’t work if the person was always in my house.
Anon
You’re not wrong that the husband has his own learned behaviors to work through, but his instinct should be to to protect his wife and be on her side and he doesn’t even have that. He’s dismissive of her very valid concerns.
Party Animal
This really, really resonated with me. My dad is an ice-rattling type. I grew up in a household where any deviation from exactly what my parents expected was punished by screaming and/or exclusion. Only now, in my 30’s, am I realizing how much of an affect this has had on me as an adult. My husband, whose family had a much healthier dynamic, has a hard time understanding why I find it so incredibly difficult to stand up to my parents or draw boundaries with them. My instinct is to bend over backwards to please my parents, just to keep the peace. Sometimes I don’t even notice I’m doing it. It has caused a lot of stress and tension in our marriage. I really empathize with you Lilau, and also with your husband.
Anon
That isn’t honest feedback. When his family is being rude to you, it’s his job to shut it down. This has nothing to do with offering constructive advice in private or about work conflicts. His job is to ensure that his family and friends treat you with respect.
If you hire someone to plow the driveway, and that person refuses plow the driveway, then deflects by talking about how you need to put snow tires on your car and shovel the deck, the issue is not your tires or your deck. The issue is that the person isn’t plowing the driveway like they should.
Anonymous
Others have given you good scripts for dealing with the ILs, but you have to decide what feels right for you. Don’t try to become a completely different person, that only leads to kicking yourself for not saying Exactly The Right Thing in the moment. If your default is either passive or passive aggressive then lean into that. It’s perfectly fine to ignore rude comments/actions. If someone rattles a glass at you, ignore it. If someone shouts your name, give them a puzzled look. If someone demands you clean up after them say, “lol no” or just don’t do it. People like to say, use your words, but it turns out people are actually really good at reading nonverbal queues like you giving them a Look and then walking to another room to sit and read by yourself. They might claim to not understand but they totally do.
Although your DH certainly has work to do (no everyone is not wrong, ugh), but I think it’s reasonable for him to ask you to stick up for yourself in the moment, especially if he’s not in the room. The dinner after baby was born – in DH’s shoes, it would not have occurred to me that you would clean up dinner while I was in another room with baby and my mom, I would have assumed you would leave the dirty dishes for me to clean up later. If you’re always jumping up to be the good hostess then it’s hard for him to (1) know you’re pissed about doing this particular thing, or (2) have the opportunity to step in. If he doesn’t step in when given the opportunity then that’s a different conversation to have with him.
Lilau
They left me alone at the table after the food was eaten with a man who rattles glasses at me. It did not feel like staying there and starting at him was an option, even though I suppose I could have. I honestly just wanted to shower, clean myself up, and sleep in my own bed. I wanted them to leave and I felt like clearing the table would send that message. Obviously, it just subjected me to some comments on how I was moving that I thought were condescending and out of bounds, but my husband never heard them so I guess there’s no real recourse.
Anon
“but my husband never heard them so I guess there’s no real recourse” I hope this is some kind of sarcasm, because obviously your husband should be on your side even if he didn’t hear first-hand the awful things his parents said.
Anonymous
I totally get why you’re feeling this way, but I think you’re being a little unfair to DH in this situation (not that he doesn’t deserve criticism for other things).
1. You’re acting like he abandoned you with this man. You had just had dinner and DH and mom got up to see the baby. That’s not abandonment. If you truly cannot be in a room with SD while DH is in another room under the same roof, then you should ban the man from your home entirely. It’s not reasonable to expect DH to chaperone you every second.
2. No one forced you to sit at the table with him by yourself. If you wanted to go to bed then you should have excused yourself.
3. Clearing the table does not signal to anyone that it’s time to leave. Going to bed MIGHT signal it’s time to leave, or they might stick around and coo over baby. Remove yourself from the situation and let DH deal with them. If this happens often, develop a signal to DH to let him know when it’s time to usher them out.
Free yourself from the role of managing their emotions and being the perfect hostess. There is nothing rude about, “excuse me, I’m exhausted and need to go to bed, have a good night everyone” and then going to bed. Might they be annoyed? Maybe. But that is not your problem because you did nothing wrong.
Violette
I completely understand how in the moment (especially as a sleep deprived new parent!) this seemed like the most reasonable option for you to get the outcome you wanted, and how it’s the type of situation that just makes you more resentful the more you reflect on it. That’s part of why thinking through phrasing for how you might now respond differently can help going forward, so you start learning new reflexes for those moments when you’re too rattled to think clearly.
For me, if I were in that position, I would have felt absolutely justified in standing up from the table and saying something along the lines of, “Thanks so much for bringing over the food, I’m going to go shower and get some sleep. If you need anything else, I’m sure [husband] will be down shortly.” And then leaving him alone at the table. Yes, in normal hosting times where you INVITED someone into your home for dinner it would be so rude to leave them like this, but the boundaries change when people invite themselves in, and even more so when you just gave birth! It’s not rude to stand up for yourself.
I don’t remember where I heard this quote (maybe on this site years ago??), but I’ve tried to adopt it as my motto in situations like the ones you describe: “unyieldingly firm, but unfailingly polite”. I take that to mean I do my best to phrase things very nicely, but DO NOT BEND on my course of action to take myself into the shower and into bed.
Dear+Summer
” I honestly just wanted to shower, clean myself up, and sleep in my own bed. I wanted them to leave and I felt like clearing the table would send that message.”
I know a lot of people do this thing where they try to “send a message” rather than verbalizing what they want…and a lot of people don’t get the message. The best way to send the message that you want to go to bed, or want someone to leave if to say exactly that. “Well, I’m pretty tired so I’m going to head upstairs. I’l tell DH and MIL so they can join you in here” would work and isn’t rude at all.
Anon
It’s also key to speak up and to say the non-rude boundary-drawing thing *before* getting upset – before the sarcastic thing just comes out. That might mean drawing the boundary before ILs really cross the line. That’s ok! That’s actually better than waiting too long! Nip it in the bud.
Anon
Hey, congratulations for having a difficult conversation with your husband about his family. That can’t be easy.
I have similar challenges – I’d posted yesterday that my in-laws are so nice but casual (as in, just sitting there while I clean up, which pisses me off to no end)…it’s almost harder than responding to an action because I’d have to actively ask for their help and potentially make a scene explaining that I’m not there to serve them, showing how rude they are. Not sure how to handle it, as I think it’s only considerate to help your hosts.
Anyway, I’m glad your husband has begun to see your situation, even if he doesn’t fully understand or is unwilling to get involved. It’s a step in the right direction. It may not be ideal BUT he sounds like an otherwise wonderful person – and hopefully he will continue to see your point and the need to support you. There’s a lot to be said for that equity, and I wouldn’t be so quick to throw away the entire marriage for a different POV. Fingers crossed, good luck!
Anonymous
If your husband were truly looking at both sides and evaluating them fairly, he’d come down 100% on your side in this situation. You don’t appease a bully.
No Problem
“He thinks it’s the absurd behavior of a sexist old white guy who should absolutely get his own drink. But he doesn’t understand why it is particularly hurtful to me or why I would have trouble responding in a neutral manner OR why I wouldn’t speak up at all.”
He doesn’t understand why you would have trouble responding in a neutral manner or why you wouldn’t speak up to THE ABSURD BEHAVIOR OF A SEXIST OLD WHITE GUY? Does he not understand the decades of your life that you have lived in a world full of sexist old white guys who expect women to be at their beck and call, and to do it with a smile? And will literally tell you to smile if you’re not smiling already? Does he not understand that there are millions of women who have literally been psychologically abused, physically abused, and even beaten to death for not being a perfect servant to a man in their life? That whether you’ve personally experienced it or not, you know that there can be real, permanent consequences for a woman not doing exactly as the men in their lives want them to do? That this is the reason why women in general, and probably you in particular, don’t stand up for themselves? Because you’d rather live to see another day than come up with a witty comeback to put YET ANOTHER sexist white guy in his place?
He needs a reality check on the societal expectations you’ve been conditioned to adhere to for your entire life. This isn’t something that changes overnight. Our society has only very slowly come to the realization that no, it’s not ok to beat your wife, and yes, women have agency over their bodies and their actions [insert snark about pro life people who do not believe women have agency over their bodies and their actions]. People in your husband’s stepdad’s generation have lived most of their lives during a time when the woman did what the man asked, end of story. You and your husband have not.
So no, this isn’t a “you” problem. It’s something you should work on, yes, but the problem is the sexist old white man who is rattling his glass at you instead of asking where you put the gin and tonic so he can make himself a refill. The problem is also his son who would rather “both sides” this than understand where you are coming from and realize that no, there are not good people on both sides of this.
Panda Bear
Three weeks between leaving a job and starting grad school; two weeks for honeymoon. I would love to take a whole month sometime – half to travel, half to just hang out at home.
Panda Bear
whoops, nesting fail. Meant this for below thread on time off.
Anon
I only 50% like your husband’s response to this conversation. He’s being too passive about defending you and saying that you’re overreacting. Keep the conversation open.
Anon
Also, Lilau, please take to heart the advice to stop waiting on these people. Stay in your chair and let your husband be the one to jump up. Let him know you will be doing this ahead of time. Don’t volunteer to do something that you know will make you resentful. Your husband is equally if not more capable of waiting on his own family if it needs to be done.
Annelise
What’s the longest non maternity/paternity/childcare related break or time off from working full time you’ve had since leaving school?
Anon
About three months; I was let go and given generous severance but I managed to find a new job relatively quickly. Not going to lie, it was glorious being off work and receiving full pay. I wish I could do nothing and get paid for it all the time.
Anony
+1 “I wish I could do nothing and get paid for it all the time” is literally what I day dream about.
anon
Does a career break for business school count? if so, 2 years. If not, 2 weeks.
Ribena
Two and a half weeks over Christmas and New Year.
Anonymous
3 week honeymoon.
givemyregards
I’ve managed to finagle 3-4 week breaks between jobs a couple times and they were always amazing.
Vicky Austin
A week at a time.
Anon
I worked for 3 years after undergrad and took about 3 weeks off before starting law school — I didn’t have money to travel but it was glorious to just do nothing. I had just moved and I spent a lot of that time doing projects and setting up the new place. After the bar exam, I had about a month off, and it was similar, though I did take a 2 week trip.
Since then, I once took about 2 weeks off to travel to Japan. Other than that, I’ve never taken more than a week off. This is really sad and one of my goals for 2020 was to take a longer break and an international trip, but alas… I’m moving this goal to 2022.
Anon
Two weeks. I did two weeks btwn jobs once and did one two week vacation. Between comp time and vacation time I have almost 190 hours of leave right now, so I’ll be taking a loooong vacation when this is over.
anonshmanon
At the end of one job, I took a month of saved up vacation time, then spent another two months on unemployment before the next job started. I used that time prepping for an international move and organizing an event for a nonprofit.
BB
One month between jobs…and it felt way too short! I travelled for 2 of the weeks, and hung out at home for the rest.
Cb
I had three months off between leaving my job and graduate school. I definitely needed it, although I did get pretty bored quickly.
Anon
1 month after unexpected job loss; 2 weeks voluntarily for a vacation on a couple of occasions. I’ve been out of law school for 12 years.
No Face
Two weeks, sadly. I would love to take a few years off, honestly.
Anonymous
3 week when I switched from industry to government. They were the most glorious weeks of my life, I cleaned and napped and went on walks to the beach.
TheElms
Travel has always been a priority for me, so between my first job and starting law school I had about 7 weeks and I spent 6 of those weeks traveling in Africa (the other week packing up my apartment and moving halfway across the country to law school). i’ve done similar things between other work related transitions for 3 and 4 weeks. Basically anytime I’ve changed jobs I’ve tried to take time to travel. I’ve always purposefully saved money for this specific purpose so it was always available any time I had an option to go.
anon
2 months between leaving an old job and starting a new one. Otherwise, 3 weeks for a couple of vacations I took.
Anonymous
6 weeks recovering from cancer surgery. I can recommend a major illness if you’re looking for time off.
Anon
um, this sort of goes into the category of childcare related in that it is not a vacation at all
Anonymous
The question only dealt with childcare. While I fully agree it was not a vacation (probably even less of one than maternity leave), I answered the question as asked.
Annelise
Yeah I forgot to mention injury or illness related, but I should have
Cat
Two weeks (between jobs). I’ve seen a few people take 3 weeks for wedding and honeymoon.
Go for it
2 1/2 years to return to school for a different degree. Other than that, for several summers I negotiated 8 weeks off.
Emma
Three weeks (between jobs).
anon
Since law school, two weeks. Pre-law school (but post college), I had a one year break where I only worked part time (and lived with my parents). I would love another break but not sure that will happen.
Anonymous
9 mth unpaid leave in addition to mat leave. I wanted more time with my baby and we could afford it
Anonymous
18 months. Unemployed. It was not fun because of the stress of it all. Though my next job ended up being in the government so IIRC I got my offer in mid March but my start date wasn’t until June 1; that 2.5 months was reasonably “fun” because I knew I had a job and I just had to get thru the various security clearances and move to a different city. Again not stress free because you always have that doubt after long term unemployment that your offer will fall thru or your clearance will go sideways but at least 90%+ of you is relieved that you’ll be employed again soon.
Now I’d like to move on from that government job. IDK when that’ll be but one of the many reasons I do NOT want it to be during the pandemic (aside from not knowing how a new co. is handling the pandemic etc.) is because I REALLY want a true 1-2 months off between jobs where I’m not moving and can just travel etc. Though this may be a pipe dream. If a job I like comes thru and I have some assurances that I’m not going to be rushed back into a cramped office, I’d take it and not get that 2 months to travel since it isn’t safe yet/the world isn’t open.
Is it Friday yet?
Fourteen months. I was let go unexpectedly from a toxic law firm job (right before my last Christmas with my dying mother, which they knew!) and it took me that long to find a new position in my somewhat niche area of law. Though to be fair, I wasn’t actively job searching the entire time as my mom died about halfway through, and it was nice to be able to spend extra time with her, and also not to have to worry about functioning at work in the immediate aftermath. The job I did finally find is better in every single way, but my bank account would have liked it even more if I found it faster! Also, like the poster above, I would gladly do nothing and get paid for it forever, I thought I’d be bored unemployed but there are so many books to read and horses to ride and rocks to climb and mountains to ski and…
Anonymous
“I thought I’d be bored unemployed but there are so many books to read and horses to ride and rocks to climb and mountains to ski and…”
We have the same hobbies. It always baffles me when people say “I can’t imagine what I’d do all day [without kids]/[without a job]/[on a long vacation.] There’s so much to do and so little time.
AFT
~3 weeks between last job as this one. it was awesome.
Walnut
Assuming other medical leave is excluded, two weeks is my longest gap. We moved cross country for the new job, so most of this time was simply used for the logistics of relocating a household.
Anonymous
How are you doing, Walnut?
Walnut
Round six of chemo kicks off today! Happy to be halfway through and optimistic that this will be all wrapped in time to have a nice spring/summer.
Anonymous
Good luck with side effects. Thinking of you!
Anon
2 weeks – once for wedding/honeymoon and once was time I allowed myself between ending one job and starting the other.
anon
4 months for bedrest and maternity leave. I was also unemployed for 6 months at one point.
Anon
6 weeks between a job I was fired from and and my next gig. Was horrible because I was convinced I would never find a job again. A different time I delayed my start date at a new job by 3 weeks and it was great + truly needed to not be a stressed out wreck at the new job.
Diana Barry
The 2 months I had between taking the bar and starting my first legal job. It was SO AMAZING. DH and I had a nice summer break including going to his brother’s wedding, then we apartment hunted (while my summer sublet was still active) and got furniture, etc., got to sight-see in our new city and move in leisurely, etc., and then I had another month to putter around the house (and buy work clothes! LOL) before starting work.
Since then, I haven’t taken 2 weeks completely off at a time. I took 8 days for our wedding and honeymoon but 3 of those were wedding prep, only 1 week for the honeymoon. I usually will take 2 weeks ‘off’ in the summer but only one of those is completely off.
CountC
Several months when I was studying for a different state bar exam – I was four years into practicing at that point and was fortunate to be able to take the time off to sit by the pool, I mean study. :)
Senior Attorney
Nine weeks with an injury; four weeks with an elective surgery.
Other than that, three weeks. It’s been a long 40-plus years!
Rainbow Hair
About a decade ago I finished up a fellowship abroad without another job lined up. The job finished in June and I didn’t end up working again until October. My partner and I had planned to do a big trip (basically the long way home from the fellowship, bopping around multiple continents) but then we had a death in the family, and I was just so, so homesick… so instead we went home, to the memorial service, and then tried to figure out the huge “what’s next?” of our lives. The first part, figuring out where we wanted to land in the US, was a hoot, and included some glorious road trips and the first visit to my favorite city ever (Chicago!). But the slow time between that and finding somewhere to live and jobs… that was anxiety inducing and claustrophobic.
I’m so lucky that (1) we could crash on his mom’s living room floor for a bit while we figured things out, (2) that we had some savings to get us through to the other side, (3) that we avoided any health emergencies, and (4) that my partner has experience in one of those always-a-job-to-be-found fields.
Anokha
I took 7 weeks off between the Bar Exam and Job 1 (Big Law), and 7 weeks off between Job 1 and Job 2 (In-House). Both were wonderful, and I daydream about finding a new job and having another longggggg stretch between jobs. In terms of vacation, the longest I’ve ever taken is 3 weeks for my wedding + honeymoon combined, but that was acknowledged as a special circumstance.
Anonymous
Every year I take off a week in the summer and 2 weeks over Christmas/New Year.
Anonymous
2 weeks is the longest typically now that I am a lawyer. Though I had 2 summers of unemployment–once after graduating undergrad before I started law school. I was living with my boyfriend (now husband) and he supported me. It was a nice break, though money was tight and I felt kind of like I wasn’t contributing. He never made me feel that way, it was all me. Then again the summer after I graduated law school but didn’t have a job yet. I was also studying for the bar exam so not a total break, but the time after the bar exam before I started working in the fall was amazing. (I was hired in August, but didn’t officially start until after our swearing in ceremony in the fall, so I knew I had a job and that took a lot of stress away.) My husband also made more money by then so money wasn’t so tight.
all about eevee
Two weeks over the holidays.
Anonymous
Looking for recommendations for on-line anti-bullying, teach your workers to not say/act inappropriate, type resources. Thank you.
Anon
I think one of our commenters does this professionally.
anon
If you post a burner email, I think the user will be able to reach out, we DO have someone who does this professionally!
Lobbyist
EmTrain
Anonymous
What are your most effective cardio exercises that you do: (a) indoors, (b) without equipment (including jump rope)?
Anon
HIIT classes
emeralds
Madfit on Youtube has some really good equipment-free HIIT classes (and also an apartment-friendly series, for those for whom that is a concern).
Anonymous
Beachbody on Demand has some great classes – T25 comes to mind. 25 minutes of jumping jacks, mountain climbers, push ups, etc, and you’re drenched.
Anonymous
An MLM? No.
anonyK
dance party!
anon8
Fitness Blender. Tons of free cardio workout videos, including HIIT that don’t require any equipment.
Anonymous
+1
KW
Sydney Cummings has tons of great workouts on YouTube, including cardio workouts with no equipment necessary. She’s awesome and her workouts are hard!
pugsnbourbon
$#(&ing burpees
Anon
Ha!! I haven’t done burpees since my college sports days and I don’t intend to ever do them again.
Rainbow Hair
lol they’re the worst
anon for this
My massage therapist recently set the Guiness World Record for # of burpees in one hour: 715. Needless to say, she’s a beast.
Abby
I started using Nike Training Club a few months ago and love it. You can filter by difficulty, muscle group, equipment, etc. I can’t believe it’s free and more people don’t use it tbh.
Anon
+1
Anonymous
It is not just cardio, but I love Jillian Michael’s 30 day shred. Incorporates strength and abs too.
HFB
Has anyone tried skincare from Proven?thoughts? In recent years I developed sebborhetic dermatitis and its really hard to find any products ( cleansers, creams, or sunscreens) that don’t aggravate it. Basically all I use now is the treatment ointments my deem prescribed but they don’t moisturize or contain spf. For those issues she badically said I just need to do trial and error but honestly that seems wasteful to me and I am too lazy to do a bunch of research. Supposedly Proven sends you a custom formula that accounts for any issues you have and sub seem is one of the things on the quiz. I want to believe this will work but it’s pricey… would love to hear others experiences. Thanks!
HFB
Wow, sorry for all the typos. I promise I am literate! I also mis-spelled my skin condition. It is seborrheic dermatitis, and “deem” is meant to be dermatologist.
Anon
Life is getting supersized and our incomes haven’t kept up with it for the most part. Tract homes in the 1970s were mostly three bedroom ranch style homes with small rooms coming in under 2000 sq ft. Families considered them forever homes and their kids shared bedrooms. No one had a home office or a room dedicated to workout equipment. There was often a family room but not a man cave or a media room. Car leases weren’t popular so people drove the same cars for more than three years and cars weren’t as big as they are now. Not one of my mom’s friends ever ever talked about a designer purse. There were no outlet malls. When “designer jeans” came into style it was all anyone could talk about, how expensive (and right) they were, and if you were lucky enough to have a pair of Calvin Kleins, it was just the one pair. Closets were tiny by today’s standards because people did not have the bloated wardrobes of today.
Were there people who had more? Sure, but they weren’t middle class.
What I see today is that everyone considers those 1970s ranchers too small. A tract home now is in a development of mostly two story homes that have lofts and great rooms and at least two places to have a dining table (why?) and many many people who think they are middle class have a bedroom for each kid plus a guest room. Mom and dad each have a relatively new car, and if they have more than two kids, they have at least one car with a third row of seats, if not both cars.
My friend grew up here in the Bay Area in a two bedroom one bath house coming in at under 1000 square feet total. It felt normal to her. Everyone’s house was like hers more or less. She and her two siblings shared one room with bunk beds and a single. The whole family shared the bathroom. She and her siblings inherited the house and recently tried to rent it out, but all anyone could talk about was how it was too small. Even just couples. People have a lot of stuff now.
I do have a point here. It’s that what we think is middle class today is very different than what people thought middle class was 50 years ago. It’s really hard to live what people think of as a middle class life today with a truly median income.
Anon
Omg nesting fail, so sorry
Anon
I actually want a smaller home, but in nicer neighborhoods, they are often torn down and replaced. In not so nice neighborhoods, they’re often in a poor state of repair (partly because they weren’t viewed as a good investment). I currently rent <600 sq ft which was enough for living but not for entertaining until WFH. Now it's starting to feel cramped with two people trying not to yell into each other's calls.
Anonymous
I am still not over the poster from yesterday thinking a HHI of $275k is “middle class.” I can’t tell if it was a misuse of the term (eg. she wanted to live “not that fancy of a lifestyle” on $275k in a HCOL area) or if there are people that legitimately earn this kind of money and believe they fall into the middle class.
Anon
Not only did she think she was middle class, she was concerned she wouldn’t be able to live comfortably or buy a house at that salary! Good grief.
Anonymous
No. She was concerned she wouldn’t be able to buy a house that isn’t “nasty.”
anon
Yeah I wanted to be sympathetic to her just saying middle class when she meant not fancy or something but the follow up comments were a lot of yikes / super insulting to actual middle class people / snooty
anon
yeah and then a really nice house that needed minor work was suggested and she said it needed a full gut.
Anon
I read all the comments and saw the house and think that’s a little bit harsh. Granted, I live in a low cost of living area, but if I was going to spend over a million dollars on a house then I would hope it wouldn’t need ANY work. Other than cosmetic upgrades, that house looked like there was water damage. I love old houses and have grown up in them and been through many renos. They are a lot of work and expensive because sizing is not consistent and lots of custom work has to be done, even if it is cosmetic. I definitely would not say that was a “really nice house” for that price range. But again, here is my comparison: https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/165-White-Ave-Fairhope-AL-36532/84396427_zpid/ I have different expectations for that price range.
Anonymous
I think it is possible if:
Married income of 2 people
Both of those people have student loans
They have kids requiring daycare or a nanny
They are culturally expected to send kids to college and kids will not get need or merit aid, so paying sticker price
Even if one person gets free health insurance, I used to pay 2k/month for spouse and dependent care (and I had to pay for my portion as well)
Among people I know, daycare and nanny expenses are more than their mortgage. Many have to buy a car or an additional car with kids. 401k contributions get squeezed. Student loans get put on 30 year repayment plans.
It is a lot of math, all during years when women are most likely to quit or downscale their jobs (often not meant as temporary), so you don’t want to get over extended when some expenses last 5-7 years and some potentially much longer. Also: we may live 30+ years as retirees, so that is daunting math.
Anonymous
I am confused about this comment. You think what is possible? That it feels “tight” or “a middle class lifestyle” to live on 250-275k? Totally agree that it can.
My comment is about being “middle class” while having a HHI of over $200k. That is straight up nonsense. You can certainly *FEEL* like you are living a middle class lifestyle, but on paper that is just not true.
Anon
i think you’re getting caught up on semantics. And that it’s all relative. I think I would also feel like I’m living a middle class lifestyle in that situation or maybe upper middle class. Feeling middle class vs being middle class – honestly someone with a lower HHI who is saving less for college than the OP could be living a better life bc at many schools OP’s HHI would disqualify a kid for financial aid
Kitten
+1
I make 5 times what my parents did when I was growing up but things have changed. Unlike them, I cannot afford a home, my medical insurance is expensive and terrible (I’m in medical debt and have to space out needed dental procedures), I feel like I can’t afford to have children unless I marry someone much wealthier than me, still have student loans , etc. The “middle class” as I was raised to know it feels unattainable to me, although I’m sure my salary technically qualifies me as middle class.
LaurenB
No one in America ever admits to living anything beyond a “middle class” life, or at most upper-middle class.
Senior Attorney
Kitten, have you seen this? https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/12/life-simpsons-no-longer-attainable/617499/
Anonymous
I think it is a ton of money based on what I ever expected to make. And yet I am surprised that once you are no longer a party of one, that money just gets consumed by the expenses of earning it (day care, larger dwelling in a city close to job). I know people who life far out so housing costs less and one spouse stays home, so can have more than one kid and daycare expenses drop out. If you stay single, the math is much better.
Anonymous
I don’t have kids. My financial burden is a ton easier being married just by splitting monthly cost for shelter, health insurance, etc. I also have the financial freedom to take more risk in my career.
Anonymous
My cousin went to local state U on a teaching scholarship and her husband is a youth pastor who went to college but didn’t finish his degree. They are middle class in a LCOL area. They have a nice house and go to the beach and shop at mall stores, but not extravagantly. Both MILs provided care to their kids and other grandkids so no daycare bills. It is all relative.
I make a ton more money but live in a big city and had school loans and daycare bills at the same time. I don’t live any fancier than my cousin, but city expectations are higher due to some people here being rich or having family help or both. My cousin doesn’t deal with that.
Anon
I feel like a hamster on a wheel. That is very middle class. And defeatist.
anon
It seems like the difference is whether you have kids, not whether you’re single. Obviously this depends on picking a financially stable partner, but having another person to split expenses with (especially housing) is key. Also, that partner’s salary is a safety net. I could have saved so much money splitting rent and probably would have purchased property by now if I’d had a partner. I’m in my early 30s, I make a good but not amazing salary and still have loans from law school and live in a MCOL city with very low housing stock. I am pretty much the last of my friends/peers who doesn’t own because I don’t feel comfortable getting 500-600k house just by myself. Could I afford it? Technically, but it seems precarious. Spending 300-400k on a 1 br condo is just not that exciting.
Anon
Many, many, many people have all of these concerns and make far less than $275K.
Dear+Summer
I don’t know why people think maxing a 401k or adding to a college fund is somehow not considered saving money. They’ll literally say “after 401k, college fund, nanny, travel soccer, and mortgage (in the best school district in the state), I’m broke”. That makes no sense. You have plenty of money. None of those savings vehicles or lifestyle choices are essentials. They are extras. The fact that you highly prioritize and value them doesn’t make them any more essential.
anon
Yes! College and retirement savings are…savings. You are literally building wealth when you contribute to them
Anonymous
Americans hate admitting they aren’t middle class. It’s not just yesterday’s poster. People all the time on her are complaining about being poor on 200k plus a year
Anonymous
Or more that they money is all spoken for, like no extra funds for a vacation or fancy car? Just enough for a lipstick or good takeout meal, but nothing like the influencers promote.
Lilau
Is there an object definition of “middle class”? I have a high HHI but not enough wealth to stop working indefinitely. To me that’s what would make a person “upper class.”
Anon
I think looking at 40th to 60th percentile household income for your area would give you a good idea of where you sit.
Lilau
But wouldn’t that leave out the very people I’m talking about? Having enough wealth so as to not need much of an income would make you upper class but not necessarily put you in a high income bracket right? Like the trust fund crowd is of a different class than than working professionals with high incomes right?
Anonymous
You don’t have to be rich enough to never work to not be middle class!
Emma
I think you can be upper class without having enough money to stop working indefinitely. People who make $500-$1M a year seem upper class to me, but probably don’t have enough to stop working indefinitely (unless maybe they lived a super frugal lifestyle which not everyone wants to do). Plus there is the whole “upper middle class” group that is hard to define.
I work in biglaw and am probably UMC, but I definitely can’t stop working indefinitely, and while I don’t watch my every dollar, I don’t spend like there is no tomorrow either. We watch our savings and my fiancé has significant student debt. We recently bought a house and experienced the frustration that, even though we were spending what seemed like an enormous amount of money, we couldn’t afford the kind of home I had imagined in the area I wanted. I’m not complaining – I am extremely fortunate in life – but I understand how people in HCOL areas can experience that kind of disconnect.
anon
Unless you have generational wealth and a lot of it, you can’t stop working indefinitely. That’s like less than 1% of Americans. 99% of Americans are not middle class. If you are somewhere in the middle on the income scale (we can argue what the cutoffs would be but somewhere 40-60 or 30-70 seems reasonable), you’re middle class. If you’re making more than 90% of Americans, you aren’t middle class, you are wealthy. Even if you don’t feel like it. Just because you see people taking fancy vacations or driving fancy cars and you aren’t doesn’t make you poor.
Anon
This reminds me of the Chris Rock Rich vs. Wealthy bit.
Anon
I think that that bit is spot-on. A guy drafted into the NFL makes good $, but that is probably peak earnings for 4 years, max, then probably close to zero unless they have a degree, a skill, and a plan (and no bad habits). I think that BigLaw is like that — you have to pay back those loans asap while you make the $ and if you have kids then, you can’t rely on sticking it out in BigLaw for long (realistically, doubly-so if you are a mom in BigLaw), so you don’t want to lock in to high expenses b/c your income may not be high for the duration of your expenses.
Anon
Being able to stop working forever is not what middle class is…
anonshmanon
Although if a family with an income in the top 10% cannot build that wealth, we really need to acknowledge that the American dream doesn’t work anymore.
AnonInfinity
I agree the American dream is a fiction, but the poster yesterday was talking about contributing the max to retirement, buying a house, and contributing the max to college funds. All three of those things are investments, i.e., building wealth. If you are in the top 10% of earners and cannot afford to contribute to retirement, buy a house, etc., then you have a serious spending problem.
This conversation is insane.
Anon in Dallas
but you just changed the parameters. The person yesterday didn’t just want to contribute to retirement and to college savings. She wanted to contribute MAX to those things while also buying a house that wasn’t “nasty” and her version of nasty meant that it couldn’t need much work at all. She also wanted her kids to be in TOP private schools or TOP public schools and and didn’t acknowledge the fact that many/most Boston-area school districts are incredibly strong even if they aren’t the absolute best-ranked within the region.
Anonymous
There are many definitions of middle class. None are what you just described.
Aunt Jamesina
You can absolutely be rich and still not be rich enough to stop working indefinitely.
CHL
I thought it was an interesting question so I went to the pew research middle class calculator. It says that for a family of 4 in Boston area, you move from ‘middle’ to ‘upper’ between 190k and 195k. Agree that the semantics around it are tricky – upper income and ‘rich’ feel different when you’re in them!
Anon
So interesting! thanks for sharing
Anon
Just used that calculator. Very cool. Thanks.
I think a lot of people need to realize that the average American is not maxing out their retirement savings. It’s good advice to do so but it is usually only the wealthy that can spare near $40,000 per year per couple.
Dear+Summer
Here’s a decent article. According to this(and everything else I read in my 3-minute search) the OP from yesterday is upper class.
https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/07/23/are-you-in-the-american-middle-class/
Anon
I think the poster yesterday was out of touch with the definition of middle class.
That said, I read an article a couple months ago (I wish I could remember where – the Atlantic maybe?) that showed that huge numbers of people with six-figure incomes have shocking amounts of debt. That basically to get yourself into a position to earn $200k per year, it’s likely you had to take above average student loans and live in a high cost of living place (so, if you own, you have a very large mortgage). While you might have a lot of monthly income, a lot of it goes towards debt and so you feel much poorer than your income suggests.
I imagine there’s a costs component here too – you’re also likely to work really long hours, so you’re more likely to depend on things like housekeepers and nannies in order to be able to keep your job.
I’d be really interested to see a “profitability” analysis of American households, not just “revenue” (income) as we usually talk about it.
Anon
That explains a lot of what I see. My ROI is not good and my life is very stressful. I think I’d have had a lot more headspace and a nice house in a smaller town if I had just been a high school math teacher, coached one sport, and gotten my masters in math at night over time (likely for free or definitely without debt). I’d have had free health car and also a pension, neither of which I have now. I’d have summers where my schedule and my kid’s schedule synced up. I’d have time to recharge. [Sibling did just this; I should have.] I’d have had a profession that wouldn’t have penalized me for taking a year off when I had a child.
Aunt Jamesina
Teachers don’t have “free healthcare”. I still had to pay part of insurance costs out of my paycheck when I taught. It was a solid insurance plan (thank you, union!), but the $300 per month cost was significant on my beginning teacher’s salary.
Anon
I think it matters a lot where you live. When I was a government employee (in my state, teachers are state government employees for a lot of benefits purposes), it was no extra cost to me (but a small cost for spouse and then dependents cost the same if you had 1 kid or 5). That probably has changed a bit, but even in my first several private-sector jobs, my health insurance was paid for at entry level (with less of a subsidy, but still something, until you got to much higher salary levels).
Aunt Jamesina
What state are teachers considered state government employees? That’s highly unusual. I’d venture that your state is one of a few or the only outlier here.
Anon
I think they are in NC. I worked at a university there and we were all part of the state health plan. As of a few years ago, it was only something like $50 per month for me, but you had to pay full price to add a spouse to the plan, so it would have been more like $600 per month for both of us. These kinds of things make a huge difference when you’re comparing salaries and COL.
Anonymous
Of course state university employees are state employees. Public school teachers usually aren’t.
Anon
I mentioned I was a university employee not a teacher because it was possible that the costs were different for teachers than for university employees. But in NC, regular state employees, teachers, and university employees were all considered state employees for the purposes of health insurance and retirement, as well as a bunch of other state compliance laws. Having worked at other state universities, that’s actually not always the case for state university employees, and definitely not for teachers. Just making the point that this varies considerably, but public school teachers definitely can be considered state employees in some places, at least when it comes to benefits.
Anonymous
Yes: North Carolina
Anon
Teachers also have to pay a portion of their income into the state retirement system to get that pension. 7% here.
Aunt Jamesina
Yup, teachers pay in Illinois, too. Pretty sure this is standard.
anne-on
I think a big issue is that if you have kids, have moved to a HCOL area (which may likely be away from your family) you don’t have a network of grandparents/aunts/etc. to help care for your kids at MUCH cheaper rates (or even if not full time, you can ask your SIL/Mom/Aunt to take your kids after school without hiring a sitter). The cost of child care is VERY high and not every school has good affordable after school options, making sitters/nannies necessary. And then summer programs are a freaking nightmare as any family with 2 working parents can tell you.
Anonymous
There is always constant tension between people like you who act baffled that anyone could call that middle class and people who live in the Bay Area who make a six-figure income and can barely make ends meet. If you don’t live here, you don’t know what it’s like, period.
I think that yesterday’s post was way over the top for the greater Boston area, but I’m more sympathetic to those posts in the Bay Area. Here, there are no towns within an hour or so of the Bay Area that are affordable. They don’t exist. There are a few towns that are a little bit less crazy, but they are not affordable.
All that being said, my household income is just over 200,000 and I feel that we are upper middle class or even upper class.
Anonymous
Wanted to add, I think that I might feel more financially squeezed if we still had student loan debt, which we no longer do. We also don’t have any other debt. I grew up upper middle class and my husband grew up very poor.
Anonymous
The tension is because people like you insist they’re middle class on 500k a year because they’re struggling to afford housing in the most extremely expensive market in the country. You aren’t middle class, and not being middle class doesn’t equal not having any worries about money.
anon
+100000 to your last sentence. Being upper class / being rich does not mean you never worry about money. Not being able to afford everything you want doesn’t mean you are middle class.
Anonymous
I said our household income was just over 200,000, not 500,000. Read first, snark second.
Dear+Summer
Exactly! and let’s not forget that actual middle-class people live in these metros as well. The Bay Area still has teachers, nurses, dental hygienists, hairstylists, nail techs, etc.
Anon
I also have the same thoughts as you, and I think the cause is an over-inflation of expectations over the last 60+ years.
In the 50s-60s, a 3 bedroom, 1 bath home was considered a middle class home for a young family. Many of those homes were in the 1000-1500 sq ft range. Now that is considered way not enough by many people.
Having a nanny is totally more convenient and necessary for many people with demanding jobs now — but it’s not a middle class thing. I had a nanny for my kid, so that’s not a judgement at all. But if you are paying an entire person’s entire salary, you are not middle class.
Taking an international vacation for the entire family every year is not middle class. Especially if you add in a ski trip and a few flights to visit family throughout the year.
I have many friends with household incomes in the 250-400 range in a VHCOL, and they all complain about feeling financially squeezed. I totally hear them — housing and student loans are huge drains for many of us. But they also expect to have a nanny plus private preschool plus play for private college for their kids, take multiple trips a year, and then complain that their apartment in a very expensive, fancy neighborhood of our VHCOL city is not big enough. These are not middle class problems, they are upper class problems. It seems like unless they have a nesting yacht, people are unwilling to acknowledge that they are actually rich.
My HHI is on the lower range of all these numbers and I consider myself rich, even though my lifestyle if far from lavish. My HHI puts me in the top 10% in the US, and it seems disingenuous to me to claim to be middle class. (I grew up food-stamps-and-section-8 poor, FWIW).
Anon
(I just looked it up, and I’m 80-something-percentile in my VHCOL city. Not middle class, even though I consider the splurge Monday picks laughably unaffordable!)
AnonInfinity
I agree with this completely. Another factor could be that people think of their childhood as being “middle class,” typically. They felt like they had what they wanted as kids and their parents didn’t struggle or have to keep a strict budget. More likely scenario is that their parents just didn’t share the nitty gritty of their finances and all that math with the kids every month. I also grew up poor and didn’t understand until I was an adult just how much my parents struggled because we never had any utilities shut off and they didn’t share with me that we sold that piece of furniture because we needed money that month, and not just because they were tired of it.
Aunt Jamesina
Yes, lifestyle inflation is definitely a thing. My home was built in the early 60s– about 1700 square feet, 3 beds, 2 baths. We bought from the original owner, who was an engineer and lived what I imagine was a typical-ish upper middle class life at the time. I bet when the home was built that his family and friends thought, “what a nice house!”. While when my husband and I bought it, my MIL’s first comment when seeing it the first time was “this is nice… for a starter home”. Um, no. We don’t feel like we’ve given up any quality of life where it counts. Our home is an unimaginable luxury for most of human history and for most of the planet currently. I think it’s easy to forget how good we have it, relatively speaking.
anon
My parents have a house much like you described. It was built in the 1940s, 3 bedroom/2 bathroom ranch. At the time, I’m sure it was a lovely house – built pretty solidly, rooms are spacious, etc. They’ve slowly made changes over the last 30 years – bathrooms are both still original (though one got a new vanity about 20 years ago), the kitchen was probably updated in the 70s (brown appliances, yellow laminate floor!) and my parents re-did that probably 15 yeas ago, and now they’re getting a new roof and while they’re at it, adding a few dormers and turning the second floor family room into a master suite.
They never expected to have a house that was move-in ready when they bought it in their early 30s. They also spent the first 5 years of marriage living in an apartment at my grandparents house to save money for a down payment. They both have degrees and good jobs but not amazing ones (I grew up ACTUALLY middle class…mom is a teacher and dad has a blue collar job). We did some extra curricular activities, but not ones that were $$ (like travel sports). They go out to eat with friends pretty often (pre covid), they belong to a very basic golf club, they usually do a long weekend trip to Florida in the winter (dad works outside in the Northeast). They’re middle class and they have very nice lives but a) a lot of that was delayed gratification and b) the nice things they have are a result of putting off other things.
They helped us with college as much as they could, but I still graduated with ~40k of loans. I think my college tuition was as much as my dad’s salary. I didn’t own a car until I was 25 and bought it myself (most people I grew up with had a car in high school). My mom wears exclusively Old Navy and TJ Maxx clothes (maybe Gap or J Crew Factory on sale). They only drink Coors Lite beer and $10 bottles of wine. They do all of their housework/yard work/ and maintenance themselves (grew up with VERY strong “don’t pay someone to do something you can do yourself” energy – I’ve seen my dad weld pipes himself). Books come from the library, not the bookstore. All of the furniture in their house is very high end, solid wood, etc. but it’s all second hand. We went to private school on 100% scholarship.
I think on the outside their lives look really nice, but it’s come after 40 years of hard work, delayed gratification, and making deliberate choices to pursue x over y.
Senior Attorney
Yes, I lived in 1700 square foot 3/2 houses until just the past few years (when I married my husband and moved to a 3000 square foot house that started out life as the same but which he added to with his own hands). And the people who built the one I lived for 20 years raised 6 kids in it!
Aunt Jamesina
Yes, the larger sizes of families back then really puts things in perspective… my mom is one of seven and for a few years, they had a house with one bathroom. I can’t imagine!
Senior Attorney
Right? Meanwhile, my husband and I are all, “if we just had ONE MORE BEDROOM!”
Anon
In America, we tend to conflate “upper middle class” and “rich.” This gets further complicated in VHCOL areas, wherein a 2,500 sq. ft. house runs in the mid/high six figures, daycare is $25k/year per kid, and there’s an expectation of sending the kids to private college. In those circumstances, daycare, mortgage, and college savings eat up so much of the budget that you’re living about the same lifestyle as someone in, say, KCMO who earns half or a third of what you do.
There’s also an ethic in Boston that’s hard to describe unless you grew up in it. I remember reading about a saleswoman in one of the super-fancy stores on Newbury St. who moved there from NYC. In NYC, she was told to do a subtle check of a woman’s shoes (new, good quality) to figure out if the shopper was wasting everyone’s time with window-shopping or could actually afford to be there. However, the Boston store told her that the wealthy Boston ladies often wear ‘serviceable’ shoes. Wealthy Bostonians will buy a Mercedes, Audi, or Volvo and drive it into the ground. Mitt Romney’s comment about owning Cadillacs was very classic Boston; although he’s rolling in money, he’s not driving a Lotus. His wife shops at Costco. Market Basket does so well because everyone, even the rich people, shop there. Many of the homes in the nicer towns were built 150 or 200 years ago; the quality and craftsmanship is incredible and the houses will stand for another 200 years, so there’s no point in knocking them down to build a new one.
To that end, a lot of people who don’t quite ‘get’ that will see people in older homes, wearing old shoes, driving a car with 200,000 miles on it, shopping at Market Basket, and will be completely and totally convinced that they do not have the money for new shoes or a new car.
Anonymous
I agree with all of this. Boston is an old money city and you can find the people you describe very easily. Among some people I know, their frugal lifestyles enable them to put their inherited wealth to good use and pay for their children’s and grandchildren’s education. However, I know people at opposite ends of the spectrum who have taken out loans they can’t afford for boats they can’t afford to maintain, so there certainly is pressure to keep up with the Joneses there just like anywhere else.
Anon for this
‘Old money’ versus ‘new money’.
I used to live in a town which was very ‘old money New England’. Lots of high quality but old fisherman sweaters, older Volvo station wagons, and subtle college stickers from Brown/Smith/Dartmouth.
Anonymous
+1. Old money is what you describe plus no debt. Most old money New England people I know don’t buy organic or even fancy food either, which can be such a money suck in other high-income households.
Anon
I think this is where some of the avocado toast jokes come from. In my experience, a lot of debt ridden millennials really do eat better than a lot of rich people (probably partly from spending an awful lot of time in food service jobs).
Anon for this
I was raised pretty broke (we got free school lunches for a big portion of my childhood). Our HHI last year was $270k which is far more than I ever expected.
That being said, although I know on paper we are wealthy, it doesn’t feel like I expected it to feel like… until little things happen and you realize that… friends needed to take out a $25K home equity loan to do some needed repairs. I sit there and realize I could easily pay for those out of pocket today and it wouldn’t make a dent in our household finances. I realize it every time I forget when our paychecks are going to hit our bank account because I remember that countdown.
anon
Forget $25k for home repairs, some huge portion of Americans can’t pay for a $500 emergency without taking on debt!
Anon for this
Oh, absolutely! Just sharing an example of the moments that I quietly realize just how financially well off we are.
A big part of my life involves dealing with people who are often living 100% on public assistance. I will tell you, it never stops to hurt my heart to see people who can’t afford the $1.25 in bus fare to go grocery shopping, and thus end up walking many miles to go buy groceries.
Anon
Honestly I think some of it is anxiety – we want things and we want them to be easy. Everyone wants to live in the best school district in a nice house, and the price reflects that. It’s ok not to have the best everything. It’s ok for your kids to not have fully paid for college to any pricey private university school they may want to go to. I always think about the poster who, ages ago, was posting about how she couldn’t afford brand-name Advil instead of generic Ibuprofen and had a household income of like $400k. Of course she could afford the extra dollar or two, but she felt like she couldn’t. I’m not bringing it up to pick on her but sometimes we lose perspective. I’m willing to bet once yesterday’s poster does eventually find a house and settle in she’ll feel a lot more secure and will think a little differently. Buying a house is frustrating at the best of times.
anon
+1 to your first sentence. The idea that if it takes a degree of sacrifice to afford nice things, that means you’re financially stressed is a weird thing that I see a lot. Like, I pay my nanny almost $60k a year. I have very little money leftover after that and my other expenses. That doesn’t mean I’m not wealthy – the fact that I can pay someone $60k a year reflects that I am.
anon
I frequently see people (including my peers) make some version of this argument: “After I pay the mortgage on my 5,000 square foot house in a nice area, private school tuition for my kids/the nanny’s salary, my student loans, my full retirement contribution, a couple of vacations a year, and my kids’ extracurricular activities, I don’t have hardly any money left over, so I’m middle class!”
I get that people would feel more financially secure if they had more money left after paying for all of those things, but that doesn’t make them middle class. What income number makes you middle class does vary depending on where you live, but the idea that the dividing line between middle class and upper class is having bathtubs of cash to splash around in at the end of the month is false.
Anon
Ha! I am in a small house where none of the floors are square and I have vinyl siding. Public school (b/c I can’t afford 20K/year for private times two kids). No nanny. “Vacations” are family visits.
Anon
Day care (or nanny, which can sometimes be about the same amount of money for two kids in daycare) and student loans are how you get that big salary.
When you earn more money, college costs more: you are not eligible for need-based aid or as much need-based aid. In California, even state universities cost $45k a year or more. Four years, two kids, that’s almost $400,000 cash for college. A family who earns much less money and gets more need-based aid (public or private) might spend a quarter of that.
Off topic for this thread, but can we talk about how the American university system manages to both massively redistribute wealth AND leave an entire generation in a tsunami of debt?
Anon
To your last sentence — I am convinced that you’d be better off learning to cut hair at 18 and working than going to law school (if you look at average law school, borrowing all the $, and making only an average lawyer salary — not partner at Cadwalader).
My doctor friends insist that ROI is better for mid-level providers than to be any kind of doctor other than a specialist (med school debt is the same for a pediatrician as it is for a brain surgeon).
I am almost thinking of just giving my kids 200K and saying: I hope you make the most of this; you can go to college, buy a house, get a nursing degree at community college, have a very fancy wedding. But this is it and I’m done. [I can’t; I likely wouldn’t; but I’d love to make it clear to them that parental resources are finite and they can make the most of things or not and decisions have long-term consequences.]
Aunt Jamesina
I think about your doctor example quite a bit. I have a cousin and a good friend who are physician assistants, and it seems to be a much more manageable balance of debt load/time in school to income compared to being a physician.
Monday
A note on the hairdresser thing, which applies to a lot of trades: any work that is primarily physical does take a toll, worth thinking about in terms of long-term planning. My cousin is a hairdresser and got severe carpal tunnel pretty early, which she says is common. She now owns her own salon and can cut a bit less, but it’s still a struggle. So many people with chronic pain and injuries got them at work. So if someone goes into one of these fields and wants to skip higher ed, they do need to think about how to handle the wear on their body, and whether they can transition to something less physical down the line. I’m not saying it’s a bad idea, just that it’s something most young people aren’t thinking about.
Anon
Definitely on the wear and tear (not just construction trades, but also nursing and anything where you have to lift or manipulate a patient). One friend who is a physical therapist now only works with very young children as she got injured a while ago (but has decades of her work life left).
I think CPA from any place you can go for not a lot of $ and no loans must be the way to go (if you are so inclined). I know there is burnout, but it seems like such a useful degree and you do it at a desk.
CPA Lady
Completely agree with this. I feel like a lot of these “fancy” white collar jobs are not exactly what they’re cracked up to be when you look at the overall numbers. Extremely stressful, high amount of work hours and outside of work hours required (therefore a huge amount of expensive childcare if you have kids), and you have to take on massive amounts of debt and many years of schooling to get there. And then you have to be image conscious all the time, esp if you have to do business development.
I feel like our entire generation was sold this complete bill of goods that it’s embarrassing and low-class to have 75% of the available jobs, and the only “good” jobs are the ones that are fancy. Would you rather be a dentist making $150k per year with $300k in student loan debt and the stress of running your own practice or a dental hygienist making $75k per year with $10k in student loan debt?
Signed, a jaded millennial
anon
Monday – to go along with that – for a lot of those jobs if you’re injured you’re SOL.
My dad is a mailman so while he has good sick leave / disability benefits (especially compared to hair dressers, etc. who are likely independent), if he gets hurt he’s out of work for a while. He tore his ACL a while back and legitimately could not work for months. He’s cut back on his more active hobbies because he’s afraid of a career ending injury now that he’s older (but still has 15 years until he can afford to retire). He also doesn’t have skills to do something else – if he leaves the post office his options are UPS or FedEx.
Anon
I know two women who were accepted into both medical school and physicians’ assistant programs and chose the latter because they thought the work/life balance, factoring in earnings, educational debt, career demands was better for PAs. One told me that her decision caused enormous disruption with her family of origin because they were invested in the idea that she would be a doctor.
anon
I just don’t think that’s accurate. My hairdresser is about 65 and has worked every week, 5-7 days per week, since she was 18. She has worked weekends and at least several evenings per week. Her longest “break” in her entire life was during the shutdown in March and April. She was married to a good, stable husband who worked as an electrician. They had 2 kids. Her husband died a couple of years ago. She sold the house, and she now rents a 2-bedroom apartment in a not-great area in the suburbs, across from the water treatment plant. Since she’s not as busy as usual during the pandemic, she is supplementing her income with janitorial work at a local school.
I’m an “average” lawyer. I make about $105K per year. I’ve never worked in Big Law, and I’ve never made more than what I make now. My husband is a SAHD for our special needs child, and before that, he made about $40K per year. I went to law school with some scholarship money and paid off my student loans before having a child. I’m much, much better off than my hairdresser. I will be much, much better off when I’m 65.
anon
I agree with all of this. I’m in biglaw and I constantly hear these complaints. It very much annoys me. I make the same amount of money but have a smaller house, an older car, only take vacations on credit card points or to visit family, don’t have our kids in more than one activity at a time, etc. so I have a lot more money left over at the end of the month despite us making the exact same amount of money. I know I’m both objectively rich and also feel rich because we have money left over. There’s a huge disconnect with so many of my colleagues not understanding that the “essential” things they are spending on are actually not essential and are very much luxuries. People get to chose how to spend their own money but they also need to own those choices. And it drives me batty to hear rich people complain that they aren’t rich because they can’t afford x, y or x luxury when they already have so many luxuries in their lives.
AnonInfinity
EXACTLY! Preach! Buying a super expensive, large home is a luxury. Sending your kids to private school is a luxury. Yes of course they take up a lot of your money, but the fact that you can afford to pay for these luxuries means that you are not financially struggling. Middle class does not mean, “I can buy everything I want and build wealth at the same time without budgeting.”
Anon
It’s really not good when access to education is gatekept by financial means and not interest and ability though.
anon
You are equating fancy private college with access to education. Your kid could go to community college, you just want them to go somewhere fancy.
Anon
anon, that’s really not true. Just think of how much support many transfer students need to catch up.
I’ve been thinking about this lately because of the antivaccination movement among nurses and healthcare workers. I know there are educated antivaccination advocates in the world, but among people I know, I’m seeing a divide between people who maybe have the same credentials but who have had very, very different educations.
anon
I know multiple people who did community college and transfered to fancy universities and have fancy jobs. They are people who could have gone to fancy schools out of high school but didn’t have the money to do so. For example I have a friend who really wanted to go to a specific private school but her parents told her they’d only saved enough for her to go to a state school. She didn’t want to go to state school so she lived at home for 2 years while working part time and living at home. She used the money she saved those first two years to finish at that specific private school. Transfer students who need lots of support may not have gotten into a fancier school to begin with. You aren’t comparing apples to apples.
anon
Word. You spend thousands a year on your kid’s select soccer team and the associated travel, but you feel like money doesn’t go very far? That’s delusional. You’re paying for private school for four kids and have a nice house and go to Disney every year? That’s pretty luxurious, from my standpoint.
anon
Completely! You could have money left over if you cut out the travel soccer or trips to Disneyland or daily Starbucks + $15 salad in the before times (that adds up to close to $400/month!). You could spend that money on a fancy vacation or you could spend them on the luxuries you’re currently spending them on. Either way you have money to spend on luxuries.
Aunt Jamesina
Yup. I have a cousin (she and her husband are both lawyers at a midsize firm in a MCOL area) who complains end.less.ly about expenses. They lease BMWs, just moved from their 5 bedroom home to a 7(!) bedroom home because they “didn’t have enough space” with their three kids, and take multiple vacations per year. They’re in their mid 40s and complain about their student loans, but spend like there’s no tomorrow. For the pandemic, they bought a PAIR of Pelotons (so they didn’t have to share) and installed a pool that looks like it belongs at a resort. It’s mind-blowing, and I imagine they’re spread thin but it’s 100% their own doing.
Anon
When I was a student (in a non-lucrative field!), I remember how often rich people would try to commiserate with me financially on these grounds. After they’d finished paying for the second home, private school tuition, etc., we were both “broke”!
Rainbow Hair
10:33, I read something ages ago — it must’ve been a gawker post making fun of an NYT article about people making gobs of money but not feeling rich, and the commentary was like “once I spend all my money, I don’t have it any more!!!” and like… yeap, once you spend the money, you don’t have it any more. But you got all those things you spent it on, right? Like, we don’t have a huge cushion because my mortgage is $$$ (and I make significantly less than yesterday’s OP) but I know d@mn well that I’m rich!
I’ll admit to being confused about ‘class’ and where I fall because I can’t ‘invest’ in a good pair of boots like the lawyer I know from Boston always tells me to do, because they still fall apart in a year or two, and I’ve never had family that owned horses, and generally I know I just don’t read “upper class” to people who care about that ish… but money-wise, I know I have much more than so many. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Aunt Jamesina
This article from the Chicago Tribune came to mind in this thread. U of Chicago professor, makes $250k and argues that he’s “barely making ends meet”: https://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-xpm-2010-09-23-ct-biz-0924-rich-blog-20100923-story.html
anon
Ooh I remember that NY times article – was it the one claiming a family of four “needed” to make at least 750k or something absurd to live in New York?
Anon
It’s all relative and also extremely dependent on where you live. We make $215k/yr and for our area we are rich AF. We live in a nice house in one of our city’s nicer neighborhoods; we have plenty in the bank for retirement, emergencies and college funds. We can pay all our bills and buy any food we want at the grocery store and still have money left over, which is what “rich” seemed like to me growing up. However we still drive used Hyundais and don’t go on vacations where we have to fly more often than once a year (maybe, depending on destination). My husband and I both have side hustles to earn money for things like more expensive vacations or big home repairs; not strictly necessary but it helps. Of course, quite a bit of that is about choices and if we saved less we could afford new cars, fancy trips, etc. But we don’t want to save less.
By contrast, I have a friend who lives in the Bay Area with two kids. They make $250k and they are stretched. Everything there is more expensive – housing, transportation, childcare, taxes, insurance, food, you name it. They live a lifestyle that is in no way what I would define as “luxurious” and yet they have trouble saving money.
I’ll just say what I thought to myself the year our HHI hit $175k and I looked around and didn’t see myself living in a mansion with a live-in housekeeper and a brand-new Mercedes in the garage (which is what I thought as a kid people could afford when they made that much money): after taxes, all the myriad insurances we pay for, what we save and all the little expenses that come with having kids and a house? $200k doesn’t go as far as it used to.
anon
Yes, we have a HHI of $275k, and my mom had WIC when I was a kid so I’m aware that $275k is not “middle class” and I don’t claim that it is. But there’s definitely a disconnect – my sister-in-law, who has no student loans and lives in a very LCOL area, thinks we are sooooooo wealthy (I’m a biglaw associate so she can read about my salary on Above the Law).
But that income means we have enough money to pay (a) our state’s income taxes, (b) my law school loans, ( c) a not-very-expensive religious school and very part-time babysitter for our three kids, (d) rent on a medium-sized apartment in a safe but not trendy area, and (e) family health insurance, middling retirement savings, some term life insurance, and (f) not much else. We buy groceries at Aldi, have one car (bought used), get takeout once a week, and are saving for a down payment. We’re doing fine! And with these spending habits, we don’t need to think much about money, and I recognize that that right there makes us not-middle-class. But as a kid I definitely thought any income over $100k would be a huge, excessive amount of money and it’s just… not.
Anon
To the vast majority of people around the world, 100k is unfathomably rich.
Anon
I think part of it comes down to whether or not you intend to pay for all your childrens’ college education. When I plug in two hypothetical kids into the “Vanguard college savings planner” (not the “cost projector”), one who is 2 who will eventually go to Vanderbilt and one who is 0 who will eventually go to Williams both with $0 saved currently, it returns that I need to save $1668/month for kid 1 and $1372/month for kid 2. That’s $36K a year for 18 years, just for rough math (yes, I realize you might cash flow part of this, and calculations should decrease risk in the high school years, etc – just getting ballpark number here).
It is 100% not needed for parents to pay for college, but for some of us not only paying for the entirety of college but paying for a private name-brand school is important and we’ll make career and lifestyle choices to make this possible. I know people who are saving to pay for professional degrees for their kids as well. It certainly comes with other sacrifices, but I can absolutely see how this is some of the disconnect, particularly when comparing to communities where the norm is more for state U or financing with loans.
Anon
yes and i realize this makes me sound spoiled, but the way i grew up and honestly most of my college friends did not finance college with loans (we did grad school with some loans) and feel like it is part of our responsibility as parents to be able to fully finance a private name-brand school. yes, i realize i do not HAVE to do that. but it is almost ingrained in me that paying for college for my kid is almost the same as paying for their shelter and food and i would be a ‘bad’ parent if i dont prioritize to do that. it is not so easy to come out of that mindset. i do not come from years of generational wealth- my grandparents are Holocaust survivors, but there was always such an emphasis on education.
Aunt Jamesina
But that doesn’t make someone who is able to save that amount Not Rich, it just means they have certain financial priorities.
anon
+1
Anon
How many of us work places that recruit from Basic Local State U or only from fancy schools? And yet how many of us work places that only recruit at fancy schools that pretty much gate-keep so that you have kids from the winner’s circle of their parent’s generation + a few other kids? And would we want our kid to be screened-in by undergrad school or screened-out by going to a school that costs less? I think we all know how we got our jobs and what the answer is.
I think it’s one thing for Grace Kelly’s grandson to go to Western Carolina University (he did — I have no idea why), but I don’t know any places except schools who hire kids from there and that is a risk that you take if your kid doesn’t want to teach and isn’t planning on grad school (I work with two great people who went there for undergrad, but were hired out of grad school).
Anon
“I think we all know how we got our jobs and what the answer is.”
Nope. Maybe that is an East Coast thing, or an expensive-parts-of-California thing, but it is not that way everywhere. I went to big ol’ State U, as did my husband, and we have high-paying jobs and are in that top 10% of income for our state people are talking about. Where we’ve worked in our careers, no one cares that someone went to State U, and it’s actually been helpful for networking, as a lot of people in our area went to our same school. Our conversation with our son is now centering around the idea that State U (or the other State U in our state) is a great choice for undergrad and if he can get scholarships, we may be able to save his college fund for grad school, which for what he’s looking at doing may be more important. Thinking the only possible choice for little Johnny is for him to go to an expensive private college all-expenses-paid is an unnecessary lifestyle choice (no different, to me, than buying little Johnny a brand-new sports car for his 16th birthday, and just as dangerous) and it is absolutely lifestyle creep. It’s that kind of attitude that lead to the Varsity Blues scandal and landed some very fancy people with very bad personal values in prison. Ask yourself: do you want little Johnny to get into a top-tier school because of the career opportunities? Or because then you have something to brag about to the other moms at Pilates or at the country club? For 90% of the people I know who are hyper-focused on getting their kids into top schools, the latter is the motivation. It’s like having a fancy Italian car or status handbag or a vacation home in Hawaii. Something to brag about as a signal that “I have more money than you.” Most of the kids in the Varsity Blues scandal either didn’t want to go to college or didn’t care where they went; it was the parents driving the whole thing. I’d be careful about falling into that same mental trap.
Anon
I have lived in Boston and now in the Midwest. What you are saying is true for the Midwest but NOT for wealthy East Coast cities.
Remember that by population, America is the third largest country in the world and by land mass, the fourth (or so). You may as well be talking about a different country.
Anon
I’m only going to put this out there, not because I think I am necessarily representative of what will always happen, but just to offer a ray of hope to this dire outlook. I went to a Local State U. And I haven’t even lived anywhere near that Local State since I graduated. And I have done well for myself. I graduated with a STEM degree which obviously helped and started at a very low position and worked up.
I am not Big Law and understood that is a different animal. But I hate to perpetuate the idea that you have to go to fancy school (and pay the according price) to be successful. Maybe it tilts things in your favor more, but you have to weigh that likelihood and degree of that tilt vs. the extra cost or debt you have and evaluate if it makes sense. I also think as companies fall all over themselves to try to improve their Inclusion & Diversity efforts in the coming years, broadening where they recruit from is an obvious and easyish “check the box” that we will see more and more.
anon
Yep. This. I am in biglaw and not everyone went to a top school. I’m involved in recruiting and we regularly engage in conversations about the benefits of recruiting from more and more schools. Also – re varsity blues. Just because you can afford to send your kid to Harvard doesn’t mean your kid can get into Harvard.
anon
I am a partner at an AmLaw 50 firm, in a large satellite office (around 200 lawyers) of a NY-headquartered firm, and while we do hire from T5 schools, we also hire heavily from state university law schools in our region. And where people went to undergrad doesn’t matter at all.
anon
Same here from a partner in a NY office. Lots of T14 schools but not exclusively T14 at all and I have never heard anyone comment on undergrad except in the context of male partners bonding over sports at if they went to the school (this is usually a public university when it does come up fwiw)
Anon
I went to a state university and many, many large companies recruit there and from other state universities. I have a great job and my company recruits from my university. Many of my classmates have jobs at prestigious companies. I think your viewpoint is warped.
Anon
It must depend a lot on the industry you are in how much your school matters. I am in healthcare, not direct patient care anymore, but industry. What school you went to doesn’t matter. I have no idea where most of my colleagues went to college. When I hire people it is just not a factor.
Anon
Again, these are real concerns and serious things to think about for many people, but they are Upper Class problems, not middle class.
AnonInfinity
I feel like I’m all over this thread, but I totally agree. Wanting to completely pay for your child’s college education is laudable, but allocating one’s money in this way is a choice. Being “middle class” does not mean that you have enough income to make every choice you’d like with your money and then have some more left over.
anon
Agree completely. My parents paid half of my State U tuition, and I paid for the rest. I do not think of them as terribly neglectful parents because they couldn’t pay for everything. In contrast, I feel LUCKY that they were able to do that much! (And that was in the late ’90s-early ’00s, when tuition was much, much lower. I don’t think that would be a reasonable expectation in today’s economy.)
Anon
We are also working with a Vanguard advisor. Vanguard projected it will cost $600k to send our now 5- and 8- year olds to State U for 4 years. While not ideal, we will save 1/3, pay 1/3, and possibly have 1/3 in loans. At our HHI, $600/month per kid is what we are currently saving. We feel middle-class for our East Coast metro area, but know we are not middle-class by definition. My husband, who was raised in a rural area, and I cannot fathom how college will be affordable to the true middle class in the future. Something has to give.
Anonymous
Let’s try asking this a different way: how many of you could afford an unexpected $500 expense today without borrowing money from someone? $2000?
Anon
Interesting question but I’ll add one I think is more illustrative: how many of us could have major illness occur, like cancer, and not have treatment costs reduce our savings and possibly our retirement savings by 50% or more? Because to me that is the difference between “wealthy” and upper middle class. My family does well and we feel relatively secure. However if one of us gets a rare form of cancer and needs specialized treatment to extend or save our lives, we are likely completely boned. All the money we have would be gone within a relatively short period of time. I know people who are not concerned about dire diagnoses because they have assets substantial enough to pay for expensive medical treatment without draining an IRA or selling a house. We’re not there and may never get there. So to me, we are not “wealthy” even though our HHI might seem like it to some people.
Anon
Or I have a kid who has a condition that requires about $200 of specialized therapy a week (but ideally twice that). Our school district either can’t or won’t provide it, so we pay for that. And it happens outside of school, so I have to drive her and wait, which takes a toll on my work day (I tried to look into hiring someone for that and maybe for $100 a trip I could get a competent screened adult driver but I’d still need to talk to the provider).
The good news is: I can afford it. And it will result in a kid who is probably college and career ready, as our school like to put it. But college will probably have to be a small and specialized and expensive place. Mainstreaming a kid with learning challenges isn’t easy, aside from the money, but you don’t get to pick your kids. Kid is working very hard and is an easy kid to have, temperment-wise. But if we were poorer, we’d never likely know that we had a kid with issues, just a very awkward kid who wasn’t thriving in school and yet nothing was obviously wrong (not blind, not deaf, not having CP, not having seizures, able to walk with an odd gait, able to hold a pencil, able to talk). For being “disabled,” kiddo is not bad off, but is so different than kiddo’s peers that keeping up and growing up and adulting will not be easy.
LaurenB
I am on the board of a non-profit that employs several people; two are a husband/wife couple each making $55K (so combined $110K). Grown children. They absolutely could not come up with $400 for an unexpected car expense, etc. without asking us for loans.
Anon
This is not the same question as whether someone is middle class, though. I am middle class according to the financial metrics people have posted above, and I could afford this type of unexpected expense. But I don’t have a new car or a high mortgage payment or max out my retirement. I also can’t buy clothes that are featured Monday-Wednesday on this site, and I don’t take vacations I have to board an airplane for more than every few years. Lots of people make way more than me and might have less in their checking account, but it’s because they have different priorities for where their money goes.
Anon
Yup. I’m middle class (60k in major east coast city) and could easily come up with that money. Why? Because I drive a 19 year old car, I live in a great neighborhood downtown but I have a roommate, I take vacations using CC points only, and my clothes are ALL from TJ Maxx/Old Navy (not even the Gap). I lived at home to pay down my student loans and paid them off years early. My computer was only $200 when I bought it and it’s 7 years old (it sucks, but I”m not willing to shell out that kind of money right now!). My books only come from the library. I make all of my food (unless, in pre-covid times, I was socializing). What do I do with my money (besides save it? I save a lot of it)? I travel 1-2x a year in non-COVID, I go out to eat/to bars/to concerts, etc. (pre-COVID). My life looks great on the surface (and it is!) but its a result of the choice sI make
Anon
Ten years ago, neither. Now, my husband and I can afford larger expenses without borrowing, but only because we are very frugal.
Anon in Dallas
I still have 6 figures in law school loans because the first thing I did when I graduated and before I got serious about repaying was save up 75k in cash in a Betterment savings account. That money is still sitting there, making very little in interest. I know many people would tell me to pay it toward loans but I just can’t do that. I need that savings account/safety net for my piece of mind. The loans are still there and will be for a while but I can afford an unexpected bill which is good because I max out my health costs every year.
Anon
I wouldn’t say put it towards loans but I’d say put $50,000 of it in index funds.
Anonymous
Yesterday’s OP here. For context, I grew up poor in a middle-class area. I was eligible for free lunch. My parents did not always provide adequate food or medical care. My EFC was zero, and I got through college on a combination of Pell Grants, merit scholarships, and loans. I had the maximum scholarship for law school but also had to take out loans, which I just recently finished paying off.
I define “middle class” as able to afford a decent house that is not falling apart in a school district where students are safe at school and have access to high-quality AP and/or IB programming. Being able to go to the doctor whenever you need to and order any recommended prescriptions without worrying about the cost, which requires good health insurance and the ability to cover co-pays and deductibles without blinking. Being able to repair or replace anything that wears out or breaks without going into debt. Being able to save enough to establish an emergency fund of 6 – 12 months. Being able to allow your children to participate in sports and extracurricular activities. Being able to fully fund 401Ks. Driving a reliable car that isn’t at high risk of breaking down on the side of the road. Being able to afford car insurance so your teenager can learn to drive (my parents couldn’t, and I got my license after I graduated from college).
Re. college, I recognize that paying for private college in cash might be considered a luxury. This is very important to my husband and me, because we both feel that our college funding situations had a huge impact on the subsequent trajectories of our lives. We are willing to sacrifice many other things to provide it, and it’s one reason we only had one child. Our original plan relied on state schools as a backup in case we couldn’t afford private school, but if we move that will no longer be an option.
Our HHI is not currently $275K, but we are trying to figure out what it would have to be to achieve this lifestyle and level of savings so we can evaluate salary offers. I threw $275K out there as an estimate of what would be equivalent to our current income in a LCOL area and what would be necessary to achieve the lifestyle and level of savings described above.
We started out in Boston many years ago, and left because we were horrified at the cost and quality of available housing and did not see any way we’d ever be able to purchase even the most modest home. I cannot stomach the idea of paying $6,000 a month for a falling-down old house with a 30-year-old kitchen and no central A/C, when in our LCOL area you can have a McMansion for a third of that.
Anon
So stay in your LCOL area and buy a McMansion? Don’t act like you’re poor when you’re not.
Anon
A lot of people who consider themselves middle class can’t afford most of those things. It doesn’t mean that’s not a good definition. But it may mean that many fewer people are middle class than think they are. I know people whose lives may look that way, but in reality they carry credit card debt.
Anonymous
I think many fewer people are actually middle class than one would assume, and it’s a fundamental problem with our economy.
anon
OK, then there is your answer. Live in an area with a lower cost of living if those are your goals. I think you’re sidestepping the paying for private college thing, though. To do that, you need a lot of income, and yeah, MOST families wouldn’t have much leftover after the mortgage is paid and the college savings account is flush. If that’s your goal, there is nothing wrong with living in a less expensive place to make that happen. We can’t have everything we want.
Anonymous
Oh, we will definitely stay LCOL if that’s what it takes to make college happen. I was just trying to figure out whether this glimmer of an idea of relocating might be feasible given our goals.
Anon
You keep using the term “falling down” old house. The houses in Boston are old but not falling down. If it is important to you to live in New construction, stay away from Boston.
If you are somewhere like Virginia that has great state colleges, do not move unless you hate money.
anon
Your definition of middle class is all stuff for wealthy people. I grew up wealthy. I had these things. I thought I was middle class because my parents had the same definition. But middle class people cannot afford these things. I am upper middle class now. I posted yesterday, but I make about $105K, which is around the 70th percentile in income, and I live in a MCOL city.
My area has a terrible school district that does not have adequate resources to meet my kid’s special needs. My family spends 20-25% of our take-home pay on medical insurance and OOP medical expenses. DH and I have not funded our retirement at all in several years. We drive a 5 year old car and a 10 year old car. We have an emergency fund that would get us through 2 months. We could probably afford to repair and replace most things, but we do a lot of DIY repairs. We have not funded our son’s college at all, though a grandparent puts in $1000 per year as part of Christmas. DH doesn’t work for the same reason, but we also have no outside help (housekeeper, yardwork, etc), and as I mentioned, we do a lot of DIY projects.
anon
Your definition of middle class sounds like mostly stuff wealthy people have to me.
Anon
Ok but I live 12 miles from the center of downtown Boston. I have a 3,200 SF home built in the 60s and added on to and renovated by prior owners a few time. You’d be hard pressed to find anything but newer construction (which isn’t most of our housing stock) with central AC unless it was an after-market install. We paid $850,000 and do not pay $6k/month in mortgage and RET. Our schools are entirely and completely good. They aren’t top 10 in the state but they’re darn good enough and this private-school-educated mom who wants what’s best for her kids is entirely comfortable sending kids to our public schools.
I am going to stand up for my beloved Boston. We have our shortcomings without a question, but I think you need to reset your parameters for a town that is adequate for you to buy in. It’s entirely feasible to get all of those things you want and live in, say, Hanover, or North Reading, or Wayland. Not Newton, or Hingham, or Winchester. Your priorities are your priorities but don’t pretend like all of the Boston area requires the cost you’ve outlined in order to get the things you say you want.
Quail
Agree with others – all of the things you’ve listed are upper-class things. I’d venture most American “middle class” (i.e., working class) kids don’t have AP classes, or access to great health insurance or medical care. Their parents are not maxing out retirement or saving for college. This is because we (as Americans) don’t tax the upper class enough to pay for public services like education, or pay working class people a living wage, to provide everyone with what rich people consider the basics: safe housing, good education, good medical care, access to higher ed without crushing debt, access to some recreation like team sports or music lessons.
If you think all those inaccessible things should be accessible to the middle class, or even to you earning six figures, the answer is political action.
Anon
Even the “bad” schools in my area have AP classes and are perfectly safe places. I think things are a lot different than when we were kids. The #1 public high school in my state has like 80% of their kids in AP class, which is something some kids are pushed to to maintain their high rating.
Anon
I think this is just regional. Plenty of schools are still struggling.
Anonymous
But you asked about a home in towns with top of state school districts. The $6k/month falling down home is in Newton!
No, you can’t live in a 2500sq 4BR/2.5Ba with a garage and AC in a top of state school district with a super convenient commute to downtown Boston for under $500k.
Get a longer commute or a smaller / less updated house. Look at towns other than Wellesley, Lexington and Newton. It’s silly to think those towns are full of people in the “middle class.”
Anon
You’re making up what middle class means to justify yourself here and that’s just not how facts work.
Anon for this
If you’re still reading OP, I live in greater Boston, in an awesome suburb (not one of the Ws or Newton but nearby) and my mortgage is about $2,400, not $6,000 – house is not falling apart and we even have central air! Yes, greater Boston is certainly HCOL, but it’s not the Bay Area. There are lots of more affordable suburbs if you get out of the 128 corridor. But I don’t consider myself middle class – income and wealth building puts me in upper middle or rich.
Rainbow Hair
(I admit I haven’t read all the responses to this thread but)… wasn’t she a tr0ll? I mean, she must’ve been?
Anon
Life is getting supersized and our incomes haven’t kept up with it for the most part. Tract homes in the 1970s were mostly three bedroom ranch style homes with small rooms coming in under 2000 sq ft. Families considered them forever homes and their kids shared bedrooms. No one had a home office or a room dedicated to workout equipment. There was often a family room but not a man cave or a media room. Car leases weren’t popular so people drove the same cars for more than three years and cars weren’t as big as they are now. Not one of my mom’s friends ever ever talked about a designer purse. There were no outlet malls. When “designer jeans” came into style it was all anyone could talk about, how expensive (and right) they were, and if you were lucky enough to have a pair of Calvin Kleins, it was just the one pair. Closets were tiny by today’s standards because people did not have the bloated wardrobes of today.
Were there people who had more? Sure, but they weren’t middle class.
What I see today is that everyone considers those 1970s ranchers too small. A tract home now is in a development of mostly two story homes that have lofts and great rooms and at least two places to have a dining table (why?) and many many people who think they are middle class have a bedroom for each kid plus a guest room. Mom and dad each have a relatively new car, and if they have more than two kids, they have at least one car with a third row of seats, if not both cars.
My friend grew up here in the Bay Area in a two bedroom one bath house coming in at under 1000 square feet total. It felt normal to her. Everyone’s house was like hers more or less. She and her two siblings shared one room with bunk beds and a single. The whole family shared the bathroom. She and her siblings inherited the house and recently tried to rent it out, but all anyone could talk about was how it was too small. Even just couples. People have a lot of stuff now.
I do have a point here. It’s that what we think is middle class today is very different than what people thought middle class was 50 years ago. It’s really hard to live what people think of as a middle class life today with a truly median income.
Anon
Adding – As a bay arean here, it saddens me to see houses like my friend’s 2br/1ba described as “tear downs” because people have more stuff than will fit into the house.
My first house here was a slightly roomier 2br/1ba and we specifically sold it to a couple who didn’t have plans to tear it down.
Anon 2.0
I am “poor” by the standards of this board. HHI of around 95K between the two of us. But, let’s be honest, I am not poor. We own our home (with a mortgage obvs), have 2 vehicles, and fund some retirement and savings.I live in a lowish/med cost of living midwestern town. I worked for many years in a job where I saw what poor, working class, struggling, not making ends meets, etc truly looks like. And I can assure it isn’t what that poster described yesterday. I have worked in a loan officer role and had people sit at my desk and sob because they can’t get approved for a $1000 loan, which they need for moving expenses to move out of their dangerous, falling down apartment. I have seen people come in to a bank and withdraw the last $2-$3 in their account to put just enough gas in their car to make it to payday. People, who have jobs and go to work for 40 + hours a week, come in with every last nickel and dime they have pulled from between their car seats to deposit in their account. I make about 50K a year but you know what? I can go to the grocery store and throw whatever I want into my cart, swipe my card, and walk out the door. So many people cannot even do that.
It is all about perspective. And, honestly, if you think 275K a year is middle class, please go volunteer somewhere that puts that into perspective.
Anon
+1 to all of this! Very well put.
Anon
This all reminds me of when my kids were elementary school age and the SAHMs were super snotty to me about being a working mom. (They never had much to say about working dads, though!)
They mostly said things like they were “sacrificing” to “raise their children” (as if I was not also raising my children) and how it was the most important job and how it had to be more important than anything I might be doing at my corporate job.
By and large these women were wealthy beyond anything I have ever experienced or expect to experience as a person who works to literally keep a roof over my head.
If you’re in a so called good school district you are going to run into a ton of this, and it will make you question whether any amount of money will ever be enough.
Floor Lamp Recs?
Does anyone have floor lamp recommendations? We need more light in a very dim family room. We also have very, very gray winters and light is key. Table lamps aren’t an options because my kids tumble throughout the room like maniacs. We want to get recessed lights installed but don’t feel comfortable having work done in the house bc of covid so we are looking for a not too expensive interim solution.
Preference for three-way bulbs, something that directs light out and not down, and that won’t break upon impact with hurling toddler/kid body. We’ll probably get two and I’d like to spend less than $400. Thanks in advance for any suggestions!
Veronica Mars
Have you looked at swag sconces? I’ve used them in my living room and they work great. The NYMÅNE from ikea is like $15 and has an uplight and downlight–I put one on either side of my media unit vertically, and one across the top horizontally. They also have some nice sconces that don’t have downlights. CB2 has the leggero wall sconce as well that’s quite nice.
Floor Lamp Recs?
I’ve thought about sconces. I was worried about too many cords on the wall but I will check them out.
Aunt Jamesina
Check out arc lamps, too.
Anon
+1 I added an arc lamp to our old house’s living dark living room and it made a huge difference relative to just the floor lamps on the sides of the room. I’m trying to find which one I bought – it wasn’t terribly expensive, like $200 maybe – but can’t seem to. It would have been like Wayfair or Living Spaces or something though.
Anon
Ah, here is the one we had and liked. This is going to be a little hard to describe, but I liked how the underside of the shade was covered, so that when you were sitting under it it wasn’t just the bulb & inner parts of a lamp that you were looking at if you looked up.
https://www.wayfair.com/lighting/pdp/corrigan-studio-dina-81-arched-floor-lamp-w000261244.html?piid=464214264%2C464214263
Anon
Counterpoint: my arc lamp did not stand up to my toddler (and it had a heavy base). If you can keep it out of the way ymmv.
Anon
Does anyone know of any resources explaining how to optimize your resume for USA Jobs?
anon
I don’t remember where I read this, but I found it helpful for my own GS12 application: Tailor your resume to hit all the criteria they’re asking for, and make sure to use the exact same terminologies. My industry has regional differences for terminologies and it’s easy to assume using a synonym will be okay. It’s not. The HR folks who screen your resume for recommendation to the hiring department won’t know. Go through the list as if they have checkboxes. Type out everything as long as it’s relevant. It’s actually okay to have a long and comprehensive resume. No need to format the resume with a nice design as the website doesn’t take anything more than text. My job listing didn’t require a cover letter, but I added one anyway because I really wanted to show my interest. I was told after being hired that the grandboss liked my cover letter.
Anony
+1 I have a friend who is super proficient at USAJobs apps and he said the same – literally cut & paste terminology from the job description into your resume. Use all the keywords; it doesn’t matter if it’s long or not.
Worried
Do you guys think that the US will be in a similar situation as the UK is soon? When?
I’m in NYC and we survived the spring lockdown, but at this point I worry that even here, there’s not much will to comply with a strict lockdown, even if hospitals are totally overwhelmed.
Obviously no one knows and it’s all speculative, but many of you ladies had a much better sense of what this was all going to look like back in January and February than I did (I stocked up on some basics in February on your recommendation, even though I was pretty skeptical), so I’m curious to hear your thoughts.
Anonymous
Nope. I don’t think there’s any chance of a lock down like the UK.
Cb
I feel like at its height, my parents in California were never as locked down as we were/are in Scotland? Like my dad was still going to Target, while we had one weekly shop. We’re back in a more severe lockdown and honestly, I don’t think people are taking it as seriously.
Anon
I’m in the Bay Area where we are currently under stay at home orders…so… yes.
But there are some differences of what is still allowed vs Feb/March when we knew less, which has helped it not feel AS draconian.
That being said we can go out into nature even right now, whereas understood in a lot of the country that wouldn’t be particularly enjoyable at this moment in time.
Anonymous
Yep, we have a strict lock down in the Bay Area and southern CA does too. The situation is positively dire there. It’s wild to me that there are people in this country who have lived their best lives this whole pandemic and who are still shocked that some of us are on lockdown yet again.
Anon
Because all the places where lockdowns are occurring still seem to have astronomical numbers of cases…so it doesn’t seem to be working.
Anon
+1. The Bay Area never really fully reopened anywhere near other places, my kid has yet to go back to school at. all. and yet somehow CA has some of the worst numbers in the country. One has to at least question why.
Anon
(Same Anon at 9:46) Sorry I don’t know why I said Feb/Mar. I meant Mar/Apr.
Also I can’t comment as to whether it’s being complied to or not. And I don’t think what the Bay Area has done is representative of what the rest of the country will do, even if numbers get just as bad.
Anonymous
Yes, it’s going to get worse before it gets better. This board is not a good place to assess risk. It’s just as prey to denialism and rose-colored glasses as anywhere else. There has been a lot of insanely bad advice here throughout the pandemic and you might want to go elsewhere for better information.
LaurenB
Really? This board has been one of the saner places on the internet IMO — people adhering to quarantine, adhering to lockdowns, not traveling except for extreme situations, generally taking Covid seriously. I am moving to Florida shortly (planned pre-pandemic) and was invited to a social event there through a club that I am a member of, and while it was going to be outdoors / social distanced / masked, it sort of appalled me that such a thing was even being discussed. Luckily the hostess (who cares for her elderly parents) decided to cancel it, and I wrote and told her thank you — this is one of the things that concerns me about moving from IL to FL, that people would even consider these kinds of events feasible. My spouse is fully vaxed (yay) but obviously I’m not as I’m not a health care provider. Luckily he agrees with me we are going to move and ISOLATE.
Anon
I’m in Ontario and our stay at home order, the most severe lockdown since March, starts tomorrow. Judging from what I see on the news, the vast majority of Americans would never comply.
Anonymous
We in Ontario are in a very different position regarding vaccinations, which I believe comes into play in requiring another lockdown. Based on the delivery timeline released by the Federal Procurement Minister, the majority of Canadians will not receive their vaccination until the summer.
Anonymous
Neither will the majority of Americans.
Walnut
I’ll be totally honest – I will have minimal appetite for lockdowns once the spring/summer weather get here. I’ll be ESPECIALLY frustrated if we haven’t vaccinated a significant number of people and that’s the reason we need to continue to lock down.
LaurenB
Whether you have an appetite for lockdown really isn’t the issue though. It’s of no consequence whether you “like” lockdown or not. No one LIKES it, but it just is what it has to be. Ditto with masks. No one loves wearing them, but it is what it is.
Walnut
Oh, I agree. I’ll comply with the regulations being put forward. The difference is going to be my mood toward it is probably going to shift. I’ll be even grumpier if I perceive the vaccine rollout to be ridddled with red tape as I sit here in a high high high risk category.
Anon
I’m still hearing about vaccines being tossed so that no one gets one out of turn. I really hope the change in administration changes things substantially and quickly.
Walnut
Right? It makes me sick. Open the door and grab any random person off the street before trashing a vaccine.
Anonymous
+1.
Horse Crazy
And I have minimal appetite for catching COVID, so I’ll suck it up and stay at home.
Anonanonanon2
No. There is very little legal authority to shut down the nation at a federal level, it will continue to be patchwork and state by state. Widespread availability and adoption of the vaccine is our only hope.
Also, for those of us in areas that peaked in the spring and have maybe hit but not exceeded that level so far this winter, I don’t think we fully comprehend how horrible it is in some other areas of the country right now.
Anon
+1 We can’t have a nation wide lock down.
Elegant Giraffe
I think we’ll be in a similar (or worse) situation as far as frighteningly aggressive spread from the new strain. I’m in Texas and have no expectations of any further restrictions or rollbacks.
I also stocked my pantry in February based on this board and was glad I did!
Walnut
My husband was early on the “this is for real” train with covid and admittedly, I wasn’t very respectful of his concern. I’m deeply grateful for the preparation he did in February while I thought he was turning into a prepper.
Anonymous
I’m also in NYC. It seems like, so far this winter, the growth in cases here has been steady but rising slowly enough that hospitals can move patients around enough to balance the load. I think the governor is now focused almost exclusively on hospital capacity. If hospital starts getting tight I think we will see more lockdowns, and honestly I think people remember how bad the spring was enough to comply. If we start seeing the ambulances at all hours again, it will be hard to ignore the danger. My hope is that vaccinations accelerate enough that the case rate starts coming down again before that happens. So much of the city is still shut down anyway – I don’t know anyone with an office job working in person, indoor dining is shut, middle and high schools are remote.
Thanks, it has pockets!
I looked it up, and it the UK rules don’t differ that much from the rules in the Boston area. The big difference seems to be that in the UK the police can stop you if you’re outside your home and ask where you’re going, that’s not happening here and I don’t think it will.
But it does make me sad when I see videos of some cities and town centers where tons of people are walking around, maskless, free as birds, hanging with friends, shopping for clothes and whatnot, and eating in restaurants like it’s any other Saturday; their ICUs might not be full yet, but they will be if people keep acting like this.
Anon
How do you reconcile when the career you love is in a different location than the city you love?
Im from a major city, but there really isn’t much of a job market for my niche field here. Another major city a few hours away is the hot bed for what I do. I lived there for two years and didn’t love it (hard to make friends, expensive, felt sterile since there are many transplants) so I moved back to my home city. My family is here, my friends are here, and I love the city itself (tons to do, strong local cultural identity, reasonable cost of living ).I am meh on my job and looking to leave but there’s very few opportunities here. While I really love my job and it means a lot to me (it’s a helping profession so it’s tied to my identity), I never thought I’d place career over proximity to family and friends. I know I 100% want to settle down in my home city, but I have about 5 years between now and then and am ok temporarily leaving.
Anon
Can you change fields? I know you love your field, but there are probably also other fields you’d enjoy where it might be easier to find work.
OP
Unfortunately in my city (despite a population of over 1 million in the city, over 3 million in the metro area), there’s a handful of industries that contribute the majority of the jobs , none of which are related to what I do. My long-term goal was always to establish myself in my field and then move into consulting (which I’d be able to manage with a combo of remote work and travel) so that I could meld living where I want + having the career I want. I’m not yet 30, so I’m not yet established enough to move to consulting yet.
Anon
do you have a significant other? how do you know you have about 5 years between now and then? if you 100% want to settle down in your home city, what is point of leaving to go and do this other job? to feel happy professionally for 5 years and then what would you go back to do in your home city? especially if you’ve already lived there – was it worth it to be pursuing the career you love? It is ok to change your mind and put career over proximity to family and friends. it is also ok to prioritize location over the specific career. there is no right vs. wrong.
OP
That’s a great point – I originally moved back here because I figured if I want to settle down somewhere, I should start planting my roots now. I guess I”m currently trying to figure out if I plant my personal life roots or if I plant my professional life roots now.
I’m single so the 5 years is a ballpark. I’m just estimating that within 5ish years I’d ideally be in a serious relationship/engaged/married and within maybe 7 years I’d be starting a family. Obviously, I can’t control the timing of that exactly, but that’s the ballpark of when I’d want those things to start to happen for me. Due to the pandemic, I haven’t been dating so its in flux.
anon
I don’t think there is a “wrong” answer in your situation, but I would spend some time thinking about WHY your helping-profession career is central to your identity. Not just because of your current situation, but because that can be a troublesome mindset if things go sideways. To list a few examples: having a boss that makes your work life miserable, organizational changes that deeply affect your work, burnout, changes in the profession that don’t jive with how you like to work. Now that I’ve been in my career for 20 years, I’ve faced all of those things. And I know I took them harder BECAUSE my identity was so closely tied to my career. Let’s just say that I’m glad that I prioritized location over my career, or I would’ve been even more miserable during those hard times.
Anonymous
I live in a suburb I don’t love to have the career I want. I think it’s a worthwhile trade off. Your career is likely 40 years long and that is just too long to consign yourself to something you don’t really like.
OP
That’s something I’ve felt – my dad hates his job, but plans on working until he’s 70 (ACTUAL middle class problems). While it’s extremely important to me that my job is not everything, it’s also important to me that I like my job and my field. I do believe that life is too short to spend 8+ hours a day doing something you a) don’t enjoy and b) don’t derive meaning from. That being said… I don’t believe in making major life changes over a job because at the end of the day, it’s just a job. Hence, why I’m feeling very conflicted.
Currently I’m having issues with leadership at my current workplace – this is personality/individual office policy dependent and not something industry-wide, which is why I’m looking at jumping ship.
Anon
I think working on not having your identity not tied so closely to your job will do a lot for your happiness in the long run.
Anon
agree with this. also, you mention that you dont have a significant other now, but lets say you move to this other city, and start dating there – are you off the bat going to ask people if they are then willing to move back to your hometown? what if you meet someone whose career is in other city and must stay in other city? or their family is in this other city? again, maybe those are dealbreakers for you in a relationship and that is fine, but not anyone you meet will just be willing to go along with moving back to your hometown
anon
I’d consider staying there if they have local family, but I think a long-term dealbreaker for me would be someone who isn’t willing to move back to my home city (which is actually a bigger city than the industry city!)
Local family is very important for me, so as long as my children have it from one side, that’s good by me
OP
Maybe saying my identity is tied to my job is not phrasing it correctly; I think I have a lot of leeway in what I”m willing to do (obviously have a preference, but am okay doing something within a general field).
My mom is a teacher – she gets a lot of joy and fulfillment from working with kids. She’s good at engaging the classroom and connecting with students. She also loves that she can coach and teach electives about things she enjoys. She’s also trained/educated in being a teacher. While she has skills that would translate over to other types of work, she’s never considered it because she’s a teacher. That’s kind of how I feel about my (non-education) field.
My career (like I assume most office jobs? Though I really don’t know) involves some research, lots of writing, some spreadsheets, some technical knowledge, and a lot of project management. Much like my mom could pivot, I also could pivot to the private sector but I don’t want to because much like my mom is a teacher I am an (insert field here. My field is very niche so I’d rather not say it).
Anonymous
Is anyone else disturbed that there is very little detail being provided by the authorities about how bad the riots were? I saw the video of Rep. Mary Gay Scanlon saying that the terrorists tased officers and beat them with pipes, one tried to shoot an officer with his own gun, some have head injuries and one will “likely lose an eye” and others have head injuries.
So many news sites seem focused on the impeachment vs detailing what happened or demanding info/updates from authorities.
Anonymous
No. Idk what you’re even talking about. There’s a constant flood of more information coming out.
Anonymous
DOJ didn’t hold a press conference for 5 days and the info I cited above only came out because a Rep mentioned it in the House – no press release updates. Just like all the Twitter reports of Members shoving capital police out of the way to skip the new metal detectors seems to have not been a story at all so far today. If Clyburn had shoved a cop, it would be everywhere but the Rs seem to have free reign to do what they want included conceal carry on the floor of the House.
There are like 50 injured police officers and there have been very little updates on how many are still in hospital/extent of injuries etc.
Anon
I second this. I feel like there were lots of outside camera shots and very little info re what went on inside other than pictures of the shirtless guy with the horns who has been arrested. Until the officer died, it was unclear whether any had even been hurt. And the details of his assault (hit with fire extinguisher) don’t convey the gravity of what happened or are so skeletal as to be fuzzy to me.
I listed to NPR in the morning every day and read the WSJ, which did detail the officer’s assault. But I was really expecting more coverage (to the point of desperately looking to the Daily Mail, which does seem to at least give every thing an entry, to the point of keeping up too much with the kardashians).
Anon
+1
Anonymous
It is bothering me. Too much focus has been on only a handful of people. It gives the impression that other than a few bad apples at the front that the rest were just people accidentally caught up in it. My mom was saying how her local news showed “an old guy, dressed normal and all and he had no idea and was just an innocent marcher.” Just because you weren’t wearing horns or a furry suit doesn’t mean you shouldn’t have had some idea that it was a bad place to be when the people around you are waving confederate flags, walking purposefully to a location to intimidate those holding our most sacred proceedings and watching everyone around you calling for a fight. People knew the tone and risk for violence before that gathering even happened. And I didn’t know a lot of the details you just mentioned and I’ve been following the news online fairly regularly. Maybe if more people would hear those details they would realize these folks aren’t all “law and order” like they claim to be. I’m seeing too much “we’re all one people so lets stop calling each other racist, sexist or un-American” or “it’s time to heal” things right now and I think it’s dangerous to try to sweep under the rug the horribleness or try to equate it with both parties being equally bad these days. Pretending there is no racist element going on is a form of support for it.
Anonymous
Healing requires cleansing the wound. Most Republicans are feeding the infection.
In South Africa they had a truth and reconciliation commission. There is no reconciliation without truth.
Anonymous
I also think too much coverage has focused on smiling folks carrying podiums or sitting in someone’s chair. Like a college prank. Maybe if people heard that someone lost an eye in the process it would hit home that it’s not just a moment of “oh, look at those crazy hillbillies” or something. I don’t care that the guy grabbed a letter off someone’s desk if that’s taking attention off the fact that a dozen or more police were seriously injured at the same time. Maybe if we knew more about the injuries, people would have the context to wake up enough to want to prevent this sort of violence in the future.
Anon
I didn’t know about all these injuries, and this information definitely conflicts with the impression I formed from the news coverage I have seen (the impression was that there were lots of yahoos as someone called them yesterday but only a few limited incidents of either chaotic violence or purposeful behavior).
Anonymous
This provides some more detail
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/11/us/capitol-mob-violence-police.html#click=https://t.co/opc3qAS9fR
Anonymous
Coverage I saw was that nearly 60 police were injured by people hitting them with bats, hitting them with wrenches, pushing them down flights of stairs, corning and beating them and trampling over them in the stampede. Limited incidents of “yahoo” behavior?
Anonymous
Depends on what you have watched. Fox News has been very light on the specific violence of the attack.
Anonymous
If I were the authorities I would not be releasing internal camera footage or other details of the investigation until I had found the people responsible and could arrest them. You will learn more as more rioters are charged. Also, employers can’t release information about their employees’ health status.
Anonymous
? They can’t say ‘Bob is going to lose his eye’ but they can ? say ‘Currently 20 officers remain hospitalized with injuries including concussion, loss of limb, whatever other injuries.’ That happens ALL the time when police officers are injured in other contexts.
Anonanonanon2
Too tired to be eloquent but yes… 100% agree. We haven’t received the level of details we get for similar (if there is such a thing) events. I think knowing the stories of the officers who tried to do the right thing and those that were injured would help demonstrate to some right-leaning “law and order” people just how not OK this is
Anonymous
The video of the police officer being beaten unconscious with the American flag pole was eye opening for a few relatives of mine who were very much ‘it was just a protest that got out of hand’ before saw the video.
busybee
I also think more graphic descriptions of the violence suffered by police officers would help the MAGAs see this differently. My husband is a police officer and the only reason my MIL fully condemns the riots is because she “backs the blue” and was horrified that her own kind (the MAGAS) went against them.
Anonymous
This is a good video with some info on injuries
https://www.washingtonpost.com/video/national/dc-police-chief-gets-emotional-talking-about-officers-injured-in-mob-attack-on-capitol/2021/01/11/0dc3b793-acf8-4998-93ea-52d476aa7414_video.html
Anonymous
Agree with this. Really tired of the narrative that it was just a bunch of crazies who got out of hand but are generally well-meaning or just standing up for free speech. People DIED last Wednesday.
Anon
So now we suddenly care about the police? Interesting.
Anon
Yeah what happened to blue lives matter?
anon
Blue lives matter were using the flag poles of their blue lives matter flags to beat back the police confirming what we knew all along, they don’t care about blue lives, they just wanted a way to tell us they don’t think Black Lives Matter
Anonymous
Eyeroll – yes we care about police getting injured. that’s not mutually exclusive with the idea that we don’t want cops to shoot unarmed black people.
#backtheblue obv means nothing to the House GOP based on how they have manhandled the Capitol Police just trying to do their jobs with the new metal detectors. And the lack of denunciation for the Trump supporters attacking and injuring dozens of cops.
LaurenB
Yes, of course we care about the members of the Capitol Police who tried valiantly to protect the Congress, and of course all the National Guard members who will be on the line over the next week. What would have made you thought otherwise??
Anon
I guess all the people that want to defund them so they don’t exist anymore.
Anonymous
What? That phrase has nothing to do with them not existing anymore. Maybe turn the channel away from Fox every now and then?
Anonymous
RE: the police, the Washington Post ran article detailing their injuries and it was horrific. This was posted on my next-door site if anyone wants to contribute:
The DC Police Foundation (dcpolicefoundation.org) is creating care packages for the injured officers. They also are tasked with providing water and supplies for officers deployed to the Capitol and unable to really leave their posted position. City funds do not cover this. Please consider sending a check or online credit card donation. Their mailing address is on their site.
Anon
Does anyone have a rug that is soft and feels amazing to sit or lay on? I’m trying to shop online but it’s tough when you can’t feel them. I hate flat weave, jute, or other scratchy rugs.
Anon
I’ve been really happy with my rugs from rugsusa dot com, which I learned about here. Very inexpensive and very soft, clean up easily. I have 3 and love them all.
Anon
Is there any particular rug you like? I have one rug from there (that ubiquitous nuloom moroccan trellis rug) and it’s ok but definitely not what I would consider good quality or very soft. I’m sure there’s a lot of variation, though.
Anon
But I and 2 of my friends have the Edessa Tribal Medallion rug and we’re all very happy with it (I have the “light blue”). I’ve had mine for 3 years, it’s in my living room, and I’ve removed numerous coffee stains and cat puke stains from it. I consider it pretty soft. I also have the Bosphorus Faded Star Petal Emblem rug in my daughter’s room and she regularly likes to roll around on it, and spends a lot of time just sitting and playing on it, and we both consider it to be pretty soft. I have the “blue” color and it’s very very pretty IRL — perfect for a child’s room if you don’t want it to look too childish. I get a ton of compliments on it.
Veronica Mars
Counterpoint: I have the Edessa rug and I hate it. It’s so much less saturated in real life than it is in pictures. It has this white shiny sheen to it that I think looks cheap. It does get lots of compliments and photographs well but in real life I’m just waiting to afford a wool rug to replace it. It has held up well with my dog, and the price was great for a 9×12.
Anon
CB2 posh rug. Feels like a luscious hotel room floor
Anon
Thank you!
Anon
It’s going to be hard to find something that is very inexpensive that also feels amazing. I agree with the prior poster who suggested trying CB2, though I don’t know that particular rug. I’d look at housing stores that generally carry things in a style you like, whether that’s Pottery Barn or Restoration Hardware or whatever, and go and see the rugs in person if you feel comfortable doing so.
Many cheap rugs from places like rugs USA have stiff backing and very thin olefin pile, which looks pretty at first but is never comfortable and wears out quickly. We bought brightly colored rugs like this for our kids’ rooms when they were little and the rugs didn’t even make it all the way through elementary school.
There is some element of you get what you pay for here.
Anon
Oh, I don’t care about price that much, but I know when I looked at mall stores (West Elm, PB, etc) half the rugs felt terrible in person and were clearly meant for looks only.
BlueAlma
My Costco shag rug.
Anonymous
I’m 31 and have $10,000 cash saved for the first time in my life!
Anon
Congrats!!! That’s a huge milestone!
Anonymous
Congrats!!!
anonshmanon
Yay! I remember that moment, I felt such a sense of relief and security. Happy for you!
Anon
YAY!!! I’m 39 and reached that milestone for the first time in December! It’s such an amazing feeling, right??
anon
Well done! That’s a good feeling and I hope you savor that feeling and celebrate achieving this goal!
Aunt Jamesina
Yay!
Senior Attorney
Hooray! Heartiest congratulations!
emeralds
Congrats! It’s a great feeling!
Anon
Good for you!!
Mal
I did the same recently (at 30!). Congrats! Feels good, man.
Thanks, it has pockets!
Woooo, high five! I’m also 31, and hitting savings milestones like that is huge. Keep it up!
Anon
Congratulations!
anon
Any ‘rettes have suggestions on how to keep pressure on your rep to resign or otherwise start taking accountability for their culpability in supporting the attempted coup last week? I can call my rep, yes, and even if his answering machine is not already full, I suspect he is banking his support of the sedition will turn into a presidential run in ’24, especially if Trump is out of the picture. I don’t believe he can be shamed into doing the right thing.
I know Cori Bush (not my rep) and possibly others are drafting legislation that would provide repercussion to my rep and others who are supporters of sedition. I just do not know how to support that effort. Any ideas?
Anonymous
Has he/she disclosed any of their donors? can you find that on their Twitter? Or via lincoln project? Call/email their donor companies and tell them to denounce the rep/ask for their money back like Hallmark did with Harley. cut off the money, it’s the only thing they care about.
Anon
This has made an impact for us-we have received a lot of emails and social media and are not going to give money to those elected officials.
Anonymous
Email using the form on their website. They get logged and counted/analyzed. “Sir, looks like constituents are p1ssed.” “Sir, the Trumpists are still with you!”
anon
I’ve been emailing. Who knows if it’ll do any good, but it feels better than sitting on my hands and not doing anything.
anon
Talk to me about how you engage in political discussion. Do you keep it among yourself and those nearest and dearest? Share articles on Facebook and other social media channels? I truly do not know how to influence others when people keep their opinions mostly buried under the surface, but every once in a while, say or post something that leads me to believe they are OK with what’s happening now. What we’re witnessing right now is horrifying, and I feel the need to speak up and shout THIS IS WRONG, WRONG, WRONG. I’m not interested in virtue signaling, but HOW do you influence people who, in your opinion, have been politically brainwashed (especially by their fundie churches — fascinating discussion yesterday, btw). I don’t think it’s good to live in our echo chambers, but that’s where I’m headed if I completely ignore everyone I interact with semi-regularly (moderate-to-lefty here, who lives in a red state).
Anonymous
It depends on the subject and the audience. Some topics are 100% untouchable on the left and I feel like you can’t even start a conversation, but on the right, I find that people are even more wedded to their narratives. They might listen to you and not think you’re a monster for wrongthink like the left will, but they won’t actually change their minds at all or be open to the possibility. We are currently dealing with a Trump-supporting family member who has decided that minimal engagement is the way to go – if someone tells him that they’re scared about the implications of last week’s riot, he’ll say “scary!! tough times” and then change the subject. It’s like a brick wall.
Cb
Men Yell Things at Me had a really fascinating (and alarming) discussion about churches and the pandemic and Trump.
Anonymous
Direct engagement /contact is most effective. Easy to avoid a FB post someone shares, harder to ignore a direct personal text. Still sharing stuff on social media but I know only direct contact would have a shot to change minds. I like the Lincoln Project for info that Republicans might care about – like how Forbes magazine came out against companies hiring Trump staffers or how Walmart is not contributing to campaigns of those who voted against democracy.
Anonymous
I don’t discuss politics on social media at all because I’m afraid of the repercussions professionally, not only that but my beliefs are ‘extreme’ to most people (yes Amazon is always bad, no exceptions) and I’m not really interested in arguing with people. So I just quietly live my life knowing I am a good person and don’t worry about showing that to others.
anon
Are you trying to influence people or rebut them with facts and the truth? If influence, especially on social media, be prepared to leave a lot of comments and for your words to be anything from ignored or twisted in meaning. If rebutting with the fact and truth – post news articles or be direct “[what you posted] apears to be condoning what happened. Is that your goal? What happened is wrong, wrong, wrong”. And then move on accepting you may be unfriended or what not. Social media does not seem to be a good platform to engage in real discussions or debates. It appears to me social media is actually an excellent platform for people to cause harm, dissention, even plan a coup using the soundbites of their choice.
anon
I don’t think social media is helpful at all in opening dialogue or actually changing people’s minds.
Direct interaction with people who have different opinions than you, with whom you have something in common unrelated to politics. That’s why it matters a lot to build up our civil society and to build a wide range of relationships. That’s why getting outside our echo chambers matters. That’s also why, IMO, we’ve been particularly susceptible to political violence this year – because due to COVID, a lot of the events and activities and spaces that constituted our common life have been cancelled or closed.
It’s not a quick fix, but I do think it’s the only real long-term answer on a personal level.
anon
You make a good point about the lack of events equally a lack of common life. But on that hand, I am so, so upset with my acquaintances who are living life like there’s no pandemic. I have been avoiding them in person and virtually, and I feel like the pandemic has changed my feelings about them forever. Separate issue, but it’s related. I recognize that narrowing my circle makes ME more susceptible to living in an echo chamber, yet I don’t want to hang with people who I no longer respect.
Anon
All the QAnon people and most of the antivaxx in my life did have their minds changed by stuff they saw on social media. So I’m not sure. But it bothers me how little push back there is. Even the fact checking resources available usually just cite authorities who say “no, that’s a lie,” which only works if you consider the institutions trustworthy. They don’t actually present arguments or explain that the conspiratorial claims are not just untrue but nonsensical.
Walnut
Interesting because the couple of antivaxxers I know are only that way as a result of significant medical side effects impacting their children. Hearing their personal experience hasn’t changed my decision to vaccine, but I do understand why they made their decisions.
Anon
I think a lot of pro-vaccine efforts have been counterproductive because they amount to “do what you are told, and trust us implicitly.” Of course this isn’t persuasive to someone who has already had a bad experience (or who can tell when they’re being lied to).
But on social media, I’m seeing things along the lines of “germ theory was wrong all along” from people who probably sell essential oils, and yet it shifts opinions.
FP
I encourage everyone to read “Bowling Alone” – even if it’s just the essay and not the expanded book. It is eye-opening to see the direction of civic engagement.
Curious
+100. There’s also a recent Ben Sasse book that elaborates on the theory (I think this is the author). My mom’s been reading it and says it resonates.
pugsnbourbon
I think (or like to think) that I’ve influenced a handful of folks to move slightly left from their conservative starting point. I talk about politics on FB and Instagram, I share articles and add commentary. I am open about the volunteer work I do and the causes I’m passionate about. Through that, I’ve had a few friends DM me to talk further. I may not have fully convinced them, but at least I’m getting them to think critically about their position and consider another perspective.
anonshmanon
I feel like, if nothing else, personal connections like this can keep people from writing off the other side as totally alien. As long as you know ‘my friend pugsnbourbon, who I know personally and respect, holds these liberal positions’, it’s harder to get to a point where you think all Dems are baby-eating satanists.
Anon
+1 I definitely have influenced conservative acquaintances to actually consider liberal ideas because they like me, as opposed to just saying AOC/Bernie/Pelosi/whomever is a lunatic.
Anon
If you think people are “brainwashed” by their “fundie” churches, do not engage in discussion with them.
Anon
My husband and I spend time yelling at each other in violent agreement about how terrible things are right now. This is typical for us.
I have text groups with friends I already know are like minded and we share articles, our own thoughts, and the occasional meme. (I am seriously LIVING for videos of terrorists getting kicked off planes and then crying in the airport – apparently that’s only supposed to happen to brown terrorists.)
I sometimes post an article on Facebook, generally without comment. I try not to engage too much but I will post something if I think most people haven’t seen it yet, or if it factually dispels a lot of the lies people in my extended circle have been posting. I feel like this is my responsibility, honestly.
LaurenB
I post political things, get a few likes, and then I take them down. Kind of wishy washy on it.
Anon
My hips are both tight and weak. Does anyone have a recommended series of stretches and exercises to help me out?
Anon
Google search “pigeon pose”
OP
Thanks! I spend a lot of time in pigeon as it is. I’ve been doing a daily 10 min yoga video for hips during lunch (perks of wfh) since my hips are worse during wfh (I exercise, stretch, do the yoga, and walk outside every day, but it’s still way more sitting than my old life was… no more walking 1 mile to the subway for my commute, no more walking from my desk to the printer to the conference room, etc)
Anonymous
Mari Windsor Pilates Buns and Thighs. The hip series in that video (which looks very 90s, btw) really works for me.
anon
foam rolling is HUGELY important
abductor focused exercises
Also, they are likely tight because of other weaknesses in your legs/glutes make sure you are strengthening/stretching/foam rolling those as well
Anon
Also glute bridges. There is a difference between weak and tight but most people can’t tell the difference. I also recommend yoga and pilates for exercises to strengthen your hips.
OP
Thanks! I think mine are both week and tight, but I”m not entirely sure. I think they’re weak because there are some parts of barre and yoga that I struggle with keeping a leg raised in a certain position. They’re definitely tight as well.
I also know my going from college athlete to sitting at a desk and enjoying the fact that I don’t HAVE to workout to getting my act back together and working daily again has been tough on them (they were always my problem in college too)
Anonymous
Clamshells and leg lifts with a resistance band are super helpful for me to strengthen my hips.
Sunshine
If you can get one or two appointments with a physical therapist, it will be worth it (I didn’t take this route until after I needed hip surgury in my 30s, which probably could have been avoided with stretches and strengthening). Otherwise, I agree with pigeon pose, glute bridges, clam shells, “world’s greatest stretch,” squats and lunges (body weight only is good too).
Trying to Understand..
There’s a really remote chance Trump is convicted in the senate, right?
anon
More than remote I believe – It seems like McConnell wants to purge him from GOP and prevent him from running for office again. The initial 2/3 vote will be the toughest but he’ll get enough I think. The next vote after that will be about things like prohibition on holding office and that is a simple majority.
Anonymous
McConnell always teases that he’ll do the right thing and then doesn’t. I’m hopeful but not holding my breath. There may be more motivation to remove so Trump can’t run in 2024 and steal focus from the other GOP snakes who want a chance at winning.
anon
I think preventing Trump from running in 2024 will motivate many party hopefuls
Anonymous
No. It’s not remote. Rumour is McConnell will vote to convict. He is part of the Gang of 8 and will have fuller knowledge of what happened then the public. He doesn’t face re-election until he is 84 so he may not care about another term. They were waiting for Trump to say something more yesterday to denounce the violence and he did not. If McConnell votes to impeach, others will likely follow.
I suspect the reports about Congressional Reps being involved in providing maps/lay outs/tours to the terrorists is making many Senators realize that they cannot risk that he runs again because it could easily have been way way worse last week.
OP
Thanks for this. I actually knew it wasn’t as remote as last time, but just didn’t know where it fully stood. I usually follow this stuff so closely but I just cannot keep up this week.
The idea of blocking him from running again in 2024, which his ego totally drive him to do I think, is a massive benefit to conviction. I also think it’s the last real stand the non-Trump republicans have to break from him. If not now, when? Lastly, I read something (Vanity Fair?) about Ivanka expressing one way or another that she wants to be the first woman president. I’d hope a conviction while she was a senior advisor, while also tweeting things like “American Patriots” during the insurrection, would shut that down hard.
Here’s hoping.
Aunt Jamesina
Yes, this needs to be nipped in the bud NOW or there’s really no turning back. Although I also don’t think the Republicans will fully recover from Trump’s legacy anytime soon no matter what they do.
The f***ing GALL of this family! They’re unqualified, ignorant, and undignified. Get the hell out, Ivanka.
We need to bring banishment back as a punishment. Just this once.
Anonymous
Ppl on Parler were sharing timelines with each of Donald, Melanie, Ivan’s, Eric, Don Jr, Tiffany, Barron and Arianna (sp? Ivanka’s daughter) each being President in succession which takes us out to like 2080. It was literally an attack on democracy, there are way too many people okay with this family being in office forever.
Anonymous
I am dying of embarrassment. My company has been WFH this past year. I had a horrible headache this morning so I laid down and set an alarm for 30 minutes. I slept right through the alarm and on for over an hour. I missed a meeting where I was supposed to tell 60 people about a procedure change. It wasn’t a presentation or anything, and it wasn’t a big procedure change, it would have only been a few sentences. It appears that my boss covered for me. He texted me to check on me and I told him what happened…no response yet, but regardless of how he reacts, I am so, SO embarrassed and worried about how this will reflect on me.
Holly Flax
Oh no! I totally get how you’re feeling and would probably be pretty worried too. What helps me in situations like this is to think “what would my reaction be if a co-worker/team member did this?” My own boss actually did this once and missed a meeting because they were sick and taking a nap, and ultimately people weren’t upset or angry, but just wondered if they were okay since it wasn’t like them to miss meetings without notice. I also had a co-worker not show up to work one day a few years ago and no one could get in touch with him, and people weren’t upset or angry, just worried that he was hurt or in an accident (he ended up being fine – it was an unusual circumstance that prevented him from showing up). I hope your boss gets back to you soon so at least you get a response.
Senior Attorney
You’ll live, I promise.
Repeat after me: “Everybody makes mistakes.” Be careful not to over-apologize and make it a bigger deal than it needs to be.
anon
Breathe. It sounds like you were ill unexpectedly (a major headache and your body just passing out is definitely not normal behavior) and not able to perform your duties. If your work is otherwise good, this should be a minor bump in the big picture. I had a coworker have a similar situation (slept thru an important meeting with a customer). The meeting was postponed and did occur at the rescheduled time and the incident, as far as I know, was forgotten. The coworker typically doesn’t miss his own meetings, so I knew something was up and rescheduled the meeting (I was the only one able to talk for him at that time). Fast forward a few months and it’s as though it never happened. I hope the same for you! And I hope you feel better and are able to shed the stress of this event.
Friday
This is meant to encourage and not shame you, but that meeting sounds like it should have been an email in the first place.
Anonymous
OP here – thanks everyone. My boss responded and said it was all good. He’s pretty understanding, but I’m still extremely embarrassed, and I have a history of depression that presents itself as oversleeping so this one hits extra for me (the whole “you’re lazy” etc. voice of depression). It was a weekly meeting where other things were presented and my part was one of the agenda items.
Anon
Things happen now that we’re all working from home. I had to jump off a Zoom with the C-suite because there was a delivery person repeatedly ringing my doorbell. It sounds like your boss was more concerned about you than angry. Don’t let depression make you feel even worse about a mistake.
Senior Attorney
Thanks for the update! Now shake it off!
Anon
During this pandemic I have missed meetings because I was in the other room managing my kids video school, or forgot the time of the meeting, or joined a half hour late. (In my defense that last one they changed the time of the meeting and moved it forward, but I had checked my calendar in the morning and remembered the old time).
So take heart! You’re not the only one.
Anon
I will admit that during the pandemic I have spaced out on more than one meeting, without the excuse of not feeling well or having a headache. In the before times, I was used to one computer and one desk I worked at and was at 95% of the time, so I never missed a meeting.
Now I work from my iphone, I work from my iPad, and I work from my laptop at various places around my house. Sometimes my car. Sometimes outside in the garden. I have two different work email addresses (long story) and the reminders that show up on my laptop don’t necessarily show up on my phone or iPad, a tech issue I’ve tried to resolve but I don’t have the technical expertise to figure it out.
In short, I am disorganized and have not done a good job of getting my sh1t together because I keep thinking this is temporary.
Anon
Is there a good way to send a giftcard for online food delivery? Our housekeeper had Covid and just got out of the hospital. Trying to figure out the best way to send her some groceries or meals. Thanks! We’re in Houston.
Anon
Groceries or restaurants? It’s super easy to send a gift card for Ubereats.
Elegant Giraffe
You can send a door dash gift card easily. I wonder if HEB accepts gift card payment online?
anon
You can send Instacart gift cards online. Did it for my sister recently (she was laid off and having trouble).
Anon
You might consider just sending cash if you have a way to do that electronically. The fees for those services are high for what you’re getting and she might most need cash (medical bills, missed work, etc). If she needs food the most, she can use the cash for delivery.
Mattress q
Wanting soft as I am a side sleeper but need help deciding between innerspring and euro top. Any insights from the hive?
I g00gled but it isn’t saying much either way, just sales pitch. Thanks!
Anonymous
I just ordered the softest Saatva mattress and it’s still firm as hell. The marketing is so, so off when it comes to mattresses. This one talked about “sinking in” and being “enveloped” in the description and that is not happening in any way, even though I am not a light person. I suggest just trying a few that have return policies.
Anon
the politicians who are refusing to go through the metal detectors installed at the Capitol – um, have they ever been to an airport? just go through the freakin metal detector. it is not that big of a deal. Some kids go through them every day at school!
Anonymous
It’s because some of them are carrying guns. Madison Cawthorn has said he was carrying when the attack happened last week. Boebert’s bag set off the detector and she refused to be searched so suspect she is carrying too based on her past comment of intending to carry.
Some of them have shoved the Capitol Police out of the way after they walk through. A couple of the less crazy GOP have apologized on the floor for the behavior of their colleagues.
Anon
Is concealed carry legal in the Capitol building?
Anonymous
Not sure. But they don’t seem to care.
Aunt Jamesina
Apparently they can have them in their own offices (which… why?) but not elsewhere.
Anonymous
Cawthorn was specific that he had it with him when he was on the floor in the house
Senior Attorney
And again I ask myself, “how on earth do these people not know that they are the villains in this story?”
anon
Seriously. That freshman representative from Colorado needs a good smack across the face.
Mal
I did every day going to school from middle school through graduation. These, whiney, entitled babies need a reality check.
Anon
That Californian representative looks so unprofessional up there wearing his “this mask is as useless as our governor” mask.
Horse Crazy
At the California Capitol building, visitors and staff must go through the metal detector every day. If a Member of the Legislature arrives wearing their official pin, they can skip the metal detector. Fun fact of the day.