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Holiday Weekend Open Thread

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We'll open the weekend thread with an emergency question from a reader where we have NO idea what to advise…

Tomorrow I have a “home visit” for my background check for a federal job. It didn't occur to me till today that I have no idea what to wear. This isn't an interview (I already met with the hiring committee). I'm thinking dressy business casual – a sweater jacket and nice pants.

This sounds good to us — although perhaps you should just suck it up and wear a suit. After all, you'll be switching to jeans or something more comfortable as soon as they leave anyway, right? But we really have no experience with federal background checks — readers who do, please weigh in.

190 Comments

  1. I served as a reference for a friend’s federal background check once. The interviewer showed up in tan slacks, a button down shirt, and a blazer.

    If I were you I would go with something business casual — a suit might be overkill. Since it’s not an interview, your only real goal should be to leave the investigator with the impression that you don’t have any hidden drug habits or terrorist connections he needs to find.

  2. If it’s like the ones I’m familiar with (and different clearances/agencies have different procedures, so YMMV), they are mostly wanting to check that your lifestyle is not extravagant compared to your reported income. I don’t think they will much care what you are wearing. So nice pants and a jacket would be fine.

    1. I agree with Cynthia. A friend of mine had a home visit from the CIA, and she wore jeans and a sweater. It was a Saturday and investigator was dressed that way too.

      1. You do not need to dress up. Jeans & a sweater suffice. The person conducting the interview will likely be a retired FBI agent who you will never see again. So long as you’re not in your jammies or in a “Death to America” t-shirt, they do not care what you are wearing.
        The purpose of the interview is to determine that you not pose a security threat, not necessarily that you’re a professional.

        1. Precisely. The first time I went through this, my mom ended up taking the agent hiking. Take a shower, put on something. It will be fine.

    2. Agree – my sense is the goal is to be innocuous, not to impress. Casual should be fine on a weekend, as long as you don’t look like a druggie or a terrorist.

    3. Ditto — we’ve been through a bunch of these, courtesy of my husband’s security clearance. Your attire isn’t an issue and it’s not a job interview. This person is coming to your home most likely on a weekend. Do not dress up, especially in a suit; you’ll look odd. Dress casual, like you generally would at that time of day (i.e., if it’s Saturday afternoon, jeans/sweater; if it’s after work, stay in work clothes, etc). Like others said, your goal is not to look like: (a) a druggie; (b) a terrorist; or (c) someone who is living *WAY* beyond their means and will be tempted to do anything to maintain that standard of living (this actually is frequently a reason why people spy).

      Depending on the level of clearance you’re getting, you might want to warn your neighbors. Most times, our agent also did the neighbor visits either right before or right after the home visit, since s/he was already out there. If they’re going to talk to your neighbors, it’s nice to give them a heads-up. Ours actually asked who he should go see; we warned them away from the psychos across the street, LOL.

  4. I need some ideas on what to wear to a wedding in March. The problem is the wedding is in Georgia, and Georgia weather in March is notoriously unpredictable. It may be 70, it may be 50. Luckily, both the ceremony and reception are indoors, but I still don’t want to be inappropriately dressed for whatever the weather turns out to be. So does anyone have any good suggestions for dresses, or perhaps for nice cardigans I could wear over a sleeveless dress I already own? (I don’t think I own a single dress with sleeves that is wedding-appropriate). I’m also not sure on the “fanciness” level of what to wear (I haven’t been to many weddings). The wedding will be fairly small, it’s late afternoon/early evening, the ceremony is in a church, and the reception is in a lighthouse museum (so not super fancy, and obviously it’s on the coast). Thoughts? (oh, I’m in my early/mid 20’s; the bride is a couple of years younger than I am, though I don’t think that would matter for attire)

    1. KZ – what time of day is the wedding? and, what did the invitation look like (formal/traditional/engraved or handwritten or funky/non-traditional/colorful)?

      1. sorry, did not read entire post. I always wear pashmina wraps to weddings over almost all my dresses, then I can take it off at the reception if I want.

    2. Personally, I wouldn’t rely on the fanciness of the invitation. If it’s in Georgia and in a church, it’s probably going to be normal-wedding attire. I think a shawl/wrap is a little more wedding-ish than a cardigan. Most of the guys will probably wear suits. And if you’re in your early 20s, this is just the very beginning of a long long list of wedding you’ll be going to. Don’t hesitate to invest in a dress that is really wedding-appropriate — in other words, one that would look appropriate if your date is in a suit. (Side note — I think most people are okay with wearing black dresses to weddings now, but white is still out.)

      1. Ugh, I’m still against black at weddings (unmarried, late twenties). I went to one in last year and I was one of the only women my age not wearing an LBD (I wore grey with black and gold beading so I wasn’t much more interesting). I felt like I was at a funeral which made me feel horrible for the bride and I sorely wished I had worn something brighter. I’m looking for some dresses with color for this year’s wedding season.

        2. Southern weddings are way more colorful than mid-west or east coast weddings. For mid-march, a nice spring-colored dress with a wrap would be more than appropriate.

          When you say Georgia coast, are you saying Savannah? Depending on the bride’s family, you could be going to a southern society wedding … its really a whole new experience. Wear a nice dress and pearls and smile a lot.

          1. no, St. Simons, not Savannah. It’s definitely not southern society wedding; and I’m from the south, so it won’t be quite the culture shock i imagine it will be for any non-southern guests…

      2. Black to weddings is fine. If your worry is offending the bride, she is probably so overwhelmed and busy that she wouldn’t even notice if you were dressed in a Carebear costume. (At least, I know I was.) I dress pretty much exclusively in black so I’m not about to run out and buy something to wear once.

        1. And if it’s a wedding in NYC, I bet more than 90% of the guests will be in black.

          1. Very close to the truth! I was at a NYC wedding this past weekend and it was 60% black, 30% red (I guess a lot of people were in Valentine’s mode, even though it wasn’t on the 14th), and 10% other (a few blue/navy, one floral that I can recall).

    3. That time of day for weddings is a bit difficult in terms of deciding what to wear. I would ask the bride if at all possible. I went to one in May where everyone wore day dresses (e.g. more casual) and one in November where the bride preferred cocktail attire. Both had receptions that started at 5pm and weren’t in fancy locations.

      I’d stick with whatever sleeveless dresses you already have and find appropriate and then find a dressier cardigan to go over it. I think Nordstrom still has a decent selection of dressier cardigans, but it seems like many stores have already gotten rid of them.

    4. I recommend J-Crew for weddings.

      Several years ago, I bought this dress in a bright blue and it has served me well at many a wedding. I usually bring a 3/4 sleeve cardigan for the church.

      I LOVE this dress, with a black wrap if you are going for a more cocktail/evening look.

      And this dress with a dove grey cardigan reminds me of the spring in Georgia.

      2. I really like the first one. How do J. Crew sizes run? I think I’ve bought maybe a top from there once and that’s about it, so I have no idea.

  5. I would go for something silk, yet a bit flowy to tone it down to semi-formal. As for sleeves – I would do more of a wide-strap sleeve, or sleeveless – something about spaghetti straps scream both high school and August at the same time.

    I am strangely drawn to the bolero at the link below, which could work with a strapless dress. Although I can see myself buying it and never wearing it. What does anyone think – is it truly bad?
    http://www.etsy.com/view_listing.php?listing_id=39887483

    1. It looks a bit like a Victorian child’s petticoat, which is to say, I wouldn’t wear it – particularly with those sleeves. But if you have very thin upper arms, it might look ok.

    2. I think it’s the kind of thing (frilly, white) that only the bride can get away with.

    3. When I clicked the link I thought I was looking at an Amish bonnet at first. Something tells me that’s not the look you’d really want, right. :)

  7. Hello all-
    So I recently discovered that I have made it to the interview round for a set of paid internships in some very large law firms. I wanted to come and solicit interview advice specifically re: grades. Mine are not the best right now, but I am taking steps to rectify that.

    Also, I recently discovered this website called eShakti. The reviews I’ve read (on other sites) have been 98% positive. What I am so pumped about is the fact that for $15 they will make whatever garment you pick to your exact measurements. I want to get a dress or two (or more), but I want to make sure they can pull double duty so I can get the most wear out of them.

    So: (1) is this dress (http://www.eshakti.com/clothpdpage.asp?catalog=Clothes&cate=lace+love&productid=CL0018417&pcat=) appropriate in a professional setting on its own (I would make it knee length); (2) is this dress (http://www.eshakti.com/clothpdpage.asp?catalog=Clothes&cate=little+black+dress&productid=CL0018476&pcat=dresses) appropriate if I added a jacket or turtleneck underneath; (3) re: both dresses would my figure (plus sized; textbook hourglass) make the dresses inappropriate on me?

    1. I don’t like the first dress at all, and I don’t think it would be flattering on me (similar to the figure you described). I really like the other dress and think it would be flattering but probably wouldn’t wear it to work even with a jacket/cardi.

    2. cute site and clothes, but for a professional setting, the cap sleeves in the first shot aren’t my fav (maybe you could throw on a cardigan?). The second photo is too body-conscious, in my opinion.

      I don’t really have any advice about how to address the grades in an interview, but best of luck.

    3. Were the reviews you read from customers who got the custom tailoring? I have had some clothes custom-made, and it generally takes several visits for the tailor to get things right. I would be very reluctant to order custom-made clothing by mail; there’s a good chance they’ll screw it up, and then what happens?

      On grades, most likely you’ve gotten past the grade cutoff if you were invited for an interview. Some interviewers may be mentally prepared to write you off as unimpressive because of the grades, but all you can do is present yourself as well as possible, just as you’d do otherwise. If they ask about grades, my thinking is you should have a one or two sentence explanation of why you weren’t able to give your full attention to school and/or had a harder time than some of your classmates learning how to express yourself on law school exams, then say you’re confident you can do a great job for them and wheel out an anecdote that shows how bright and diligent you are.

      1. Actually the bad reviews that I read were when people didn’t spring for the custom tailoring. All of the reviews I read that involved the tailoring were positive. To avoid making a mistake, I would have someone else (maybe even a professional) take your measurements. I don’t think they take back custom items.

        1. I second Karen. I’ve had several things tailor-made and they *always* require multiple visits to get everything right. I think that is particularly true for shirts and/or dresses that need to fit correctly through the bust.

          As for the dresses in the links, I think the first one would probably be fine for work. I think the second one is cute but not work appropriate, even with a jacket/cardigan, because the cut is very body-conscious and the neckline seems more cocktail hour than daytime.

          1. But don’t wear either of these to the actual interview!! Definitely wear a conservative suit – even if you have to go out and buy one.

        2. I’ve actually read a number of negative reviews by people who DID get the custom tailoring. But, eh. I have noticed that it seems a lot of the negative reviews I saw are older, so mabe they’ve improved.
          As for whether the dresses are appropriate, I would answer with a big N-O.

    4. By very large law firms do you mean vault 100 with starting salaries of $160k? If you’re thinking about work clothes for this type of job I wouldn’t wear either dress, or anything in a jersey fabric with very few exceptions. Brooks Brothers has a lot of nice conservative items on clearance now.

      Re: grades, the only thing you can do is have a good explanation ready. e.g., I was doing OCI that semester and short on time; I misread one of the essay questions for that final and therefore failed to charge one of the parties; etc. I wouldn’t draw attention to your grades unless they ask. They may not, since the grades were good enough to get you an interview.

      1. I agree with the comment about the first dress not being flattering – the two tone blousy top/skirt bottom looks funny to me. I like the second dress but do not think it would be appropriate for the workplace (unless you worked in a bar).

      2. I’m not very sure about the firm’s as I have not had a chance to research them, but I am concerned about the grades because the position is through my school’s diversity program, so the next round of cuts may be grade based unless there is a good reason for the committee to keep the applicant around. I will say that all of the firms are big 100+ employee firms on 17th Street in Denver.

        2. Do NOT bring it up. If they ask, obviously have a good story to tell (not too dramatic or long).

          My grades were awful first year. Almost nobody asked, which was great because I couldn’t exactly share the truth with them (abusive husband – now EX).

          1. While that is super personal, Erin, I think if he was an ex it would be a great explanation that shows you can overcome adversity and kick a jack ass to the curb! Or, I could be totally off base and you would be sharing something that makes people uncomfortable and view you as a victim. A very tough friend of mine told me an ex abused her and I guess I saw her just a little differently after. You probably made the right choice.

          2. Erin, sorry to hear that, but that it wonderful that you are in a better place now. My grades were also bad first semester, but as my dad told me, grades are just a brick in the wall of your law career. If you are working on fixing your grades and they ask, focus on the upward progress. I would avoid making excuses.

      3. I agree with posters who recommended a suit, and think that the aesthetic of Brooks Brothers is great – but you’ll notice that the OP is a plus-sized woman (as am I), so that likely won’t be much help. Is anyone aware of a retailer with a similar style and quality who either caters to, or at least includes, fuller figures? Thanks!

        1. Corey, I don’t know, yet. But readers on my blog have asked for High WASP clothes for plus sizes, and that’s pretty much Brooks Brothers etc, so I am now on the lookout. Maybe you could email me if you find anything:). (click on my name here, the email address is on my blog.) Thanks in advance.

        2. Try this thread as there is a pretty comprehensive list of plus size retailers included in this thread. https://corporette.com/2010/01/29/weekend-open-thread-26/#comments

          While they are expensive, Lafeyette 148 carries business wear in plus sizes. I’d also try, Maria Rinaldi (also pricey), Trentacosta and Lee Lee’s Valise. Although they are overseas, I have read good things about Dorothy Perkins and Evans.

          As plus-size is already a niche, you are not going to have a one-stop shopping experience for business wear; you’ll to have to pick and choose from various sites.

          Good luck.

          1. Whoops-that should be Marina Rinaldi. Also check lagrandedame.com and Thomas Pink goes up to a size 20 in some of their clothing.

        3. Talbots!

          Not everything there is appropriate, but for suits and shirts they have a lot of sizes and are very conservative in my opinion.

          1. Ditto! You do have to work to avoid the older looking pieces, but most of my work wardrobe (top 200 Midwest firm) comes from Talbots. Also try Lafayette 148, and then you can hit little bits here and there – Neiman Marcus has a gorgeous suit and dress in its NM brand right now that goes up to a 20W, Saks occasionally has a nice suit in its Salon Z. Macys is hit or miss, but sometimes a good option. On the lower end, Jones New York (I find it way overpriced for the quality) and Anne Klein have plus size suits and work wear.

    5. Don’t wear either of those dresses. Neither are appropriate for a law firm, and definitely not for an interview.

      I am a legal assistant, and I usually wear nice blouses with cardigans or blazers and dress pants or skirts with good dress shoes. For an interview I always wear a suit, button up shirt in a smart color (french blue flatters my face and is a conservative choice, white is another safe option). A law clerk should dress better than staff unless it is a casual environment.

    6. I wouldn’t bring up your grades unless someone asks about them. I started law school at almost 30 and did not adjust well at all to the environment my first year. My 1L GPA was absolutely abysmal, but I was able to bring it up over .5 overall by graduation. I just explain that I took a little longer to adjust coming in after being out of school for a while and try to bring the focus back to my accomplishments since 1L.

      For some reason, my experience was pretty much par for the course in my class for students starting a little later in life- so much so that the school took steps to remedy the problem.

    7. Re: the dresses, I would say if you think you will love them, then get one and see how you feel about it – but the second one isn’t going to be appropriate for work even with a turtleneck IMHO. On the other hand, you did mention Denver and people tend to be more casual there so the first one is a real possibility (if it suits your figure when you get it).

      About the grades – if you got through the first round (even with a diversity push) then your grades are good enough. Be prepared if some jerk tries to ask you about it but move to a different topic and in general just try to show how enthusiastic you are and all of the other great things you have to offer. Good luck!!

    8. Re: the grades, after you provide a brief one-sentence reason, IMMEDIATELY launch into how you have been and are continuing to improve them. I think you already know this since you mentioned it in your post, but it seems worth emphasizing. Discuss how you, e.g., went to each professor to discuss your grade and the specifics of how you did on the exams; went back over the exams and rewrote some answers for your professors to evaluate and give you more pointers; joined a study group; learned a different note-taking method; etc. Be positive, don’t focus on the negative “excuses” for your grades, and I guarantee that if this is done genuinely, you’ll come across as proactive, committed, and smart enough to figure out where you went wrong and how to fix it — all desirable qualities that may make the interviewer even forget the bad grades.

      But of course, don’t bring it up unless asked, or unless you can work some of the above-mentioned self-promotion into the interview without somehow drawing attention to the grades themselves (not impossible, but probably tricky to do).

      1. I agree with some of the previous posters–best not to come across like you’re making excuses. I wouldn’t point to any external cause for the poor grades, unless it’s something pretty serious that would distract anyone. You want to come across as a “can do” person who performs well even in stressful environments and won’t be thrown off by the ordinary ups and downs of life. If asked, demonstrate that you’ve figured out what went wrong and taken steps to improve. Focus on your confidence/competence. In my experience, if the interviewers intuitively feel good about you and can envision you fitting into the firm environment, they’ll be inclined to find reasons to hire you, even if other candidates have objectively better credentials, like grades.

        As to the dresses, I don’t have much to add that others have not already stated. Bear in mind, though, that interviews are one occasion when you’re definitely not dressing to please yourself. You’re dressing to impress a panel of interviewers. You won’t know their individual tastes and pet peeves, so it really is best to play it safe until you get the job. Then its fine to assess the work environment and start expressing your personal style a bit more.

    9. Well, it begs the question – have you figured out why you didn’t do as well as you wanted? My first semester grades were not as great as I wanted, and when I went to my professors they all pretty much told me the same thing, made the adjustment next round and things were fine from there. If you know what the issue WAS, then I think its perfectly fine to say, I was having a problem with X, spoke to my professors on how to rectify the situation and have done so….but of course now you have to back it up….

      RE the dresses, the fist can be cute with the right figure but I don’t think it interview, summer associate wear. that the dress you wear after you been there and proved yourself to be a solid attorney.

        1. Who effin’ cares?????? Don’t you have more going for you than being a cliche nag? I assume anyone posting in an online forum is typing and doing something else, etc… so typos etc… are not to be held against posters, and commonly used phrasings, EVEN IF THEY ARE WRONG are not the friggin’ point!!!! Do you feel better about yourself for pointing out something that is so common as to have a page about it? Do you think anyone else misunderstood the post and needed your clarification? More importantly, do you think I care about your pet peeve enough to make any modification in my use of the phrase. Jeesh!

          To the OP…I sincerely hope my mis-use of the phrase did not terribly confuse you and muddle the point f my post.

          To Anon…if I ever forget to cut the C on a skirt, don’t worry about it. ‘k?

          1. Wow, talk about an overreaction…. I really did think that you or others may not know the correct usage, and I was trying to be helpful. And I even noted that it’s a pet peeve of mind, so that should’ve gone a long way to letting someone know that I’m not being a “cliche nag” in general, just trying to help other Corporetters out, I would hate for one of us to use this phrase incorrectly in an interview or something. Geez; I think you need to lighten up, not me..

          3. It helped me anonymous. I don’t use the phrase often, but I’ll think twice to make sure I get it right in the future!

            Diva, that outburst was more of a reflection on you than it was on anonymous, who qualified her comment with the ‘personal pet peeve’ comment.

          4. No, I won’t chill, and your opinion of me 3L, is yours and you are entitled to it, but isn’t important to me in the least. Feel free to skip my postings.
            The post was yet another example of some posters who are always worried about everything but the substance of the post. And again, who cares. It would be entirely different if I asked for clarification on a commonly used phrasing, but I didn’t, I was trying to caution a student, to make certain she had addressed her grade related issues before professing to have done so, because there will be someone who checks up. THAT is what was open to comment, agreement or disagreement. Let’s focus on the substantive.

            And I’m sorry, but qualifiers are just muted attempts to dial back the snark, without actually doing so.

          5. good lord, chillax. and clearly it *is* important to you, or you wouldn’t have posted such a screed in response.

            i myself didn’t learn the proper use of “beg the question” until law school, and am still grateful to the woman who pointed it out to me. now i don’t use it improperly around lawyers who are JUST the type of people to judge you for this type of thing.

        2. Eh, I think that’s one of those phrases that we all need to accept that language evolves and let it go.* There’s no confusion as to what she meant and English isn’t static, nor should it be.

          * Other examples? “You’ve got another thing coming” instead of “another think coming.” Arguably “just desserts” vs. “just deserts.”

        3. Anonymous52, you are correct in your beg/raise distinction. Substitution of one for the other is incorrect.

          Similarly, with apologies to v58, the think (correct) or thing (incorrect) and desserts (correct) or deserts (incorrect) items below are not examples of evolution of the language, they are just plain mistakes. These are the kinds of errors that arise when words are learned orally, and never read from a written source.

          I’ve often worked as an editor, and I see sloppy writing every day. Left uncorrected, it leads to vast misunderstandings. Anybody here read. “Eats, Shoots & Leaves”, by Lynne Truss?

          Speaking solely for myself, I think that making a little extra effort when writing on Corporette shows respect to its originators, and its users.

          1. Funny, I always thought it really was “another -thing- coming,” but that’s not one I’ve ever thought about before. And I thought it was “just deserts,” with one “s”, because the root word is “deserve”… I’m more certain about that one than the first, but I could easily be wrong on both counts!

          2. Linguistic prescriptivists will tell you that “just deserts” is, in fact, correct, which kind of shows the flaw in your argument.

          3. (And BethinNY, you can see the story on thing/think here – “think” is probably a bit earlier, but “thing” has been in common usage for a very, very long time (longer than any of us have been alive).

          4. Thanks v; apparently my main source for the first one was the Judas Priest song, which I will now have stuck in my head all day..

        5. I think this exchange is a GREAT example of what we were discussing the other day with people pointing out outfit snafus. Not everyone is going to interpret what you view as a helpful and friendly pointer as helpful and friendly. Some people might be offended or annoyed. So keep that in mind before running up to that partner and mentioning that her shoes are scuffed!

    10. No! Do not wear either dress. Interviews for law firms are textbook-examples of when you need a suit. A real suit. No fancy frills. No trendy fashions. You need to wear a basic suit in black or navy with appropriate heels and hose that matches your skintone. It’s really that simple!

      Nix both those dresses!

    11. So, I ended up getting this dress (http://www.eshakti.com/clothpdpage.asp?catalog=Clothes&cate=archive2&productid=CL0016732&pcat=) and this top (http://www.eshakti.com/clothpdpage.asp?catalog=Clothes&cate=archive2&productid=CL0017196&pcat=) for personal use. Thanks everyone for all of the great advice. I’ll come back and let everyone know how the dress turned out (I entered my measurements for a custom fit and had the hem raised to the knee). And by the way, eShakti is doing buy one get one 30% off and if you sign up for their mailing list you’ll get a $15 off coupon that you can use as well.

    12. (a) I agree with everyone else when they say DO NOT bring up your grades. Let them bring it up. I have this same issue, and, not going to lie, it has come up. I’ve said something like, “I didn’t ‘get’ law school exams at first. However, I went to talk to every professor (who were all very surprised at my exam vs. my in-class participation and understanding of the material) to go through my exams line by line to see how I could improve, which is how I got my research assistantship. You can also see that I work very hard – even with my super involvement I have ranked in the top (whatever) of the class with my semester grades since my first year.” Sometimes that’s enough. Sometimes I then go into how all the Profs all said, “jeez, I wish I could give you an oral exam instead of a written one,” which leads into moot court team, starting moot court board, etc. Even the &*$% interviewer who asked, “Jeez, do you even KNOW crim pro?” said, “Wow, that is impressive,” and moved on from my transcript. Which is what you want them to do anyway. But I think you’ll be ok, honestly. It doesn’t sound like your grades are all that bad if you’re interviewing for the kinds of firms you might be. :-)

      (2) Tailor = yes. Dresses = No, unless they are with a suit. Like a suit-suit, not a ‘dress with a jacket that kinda matches cause they’re both blue.’

  8. I didnt have an official home visit but I had background check interview for Federal job. I think my people were very young FBI agents (perhaps in training?) because they seemed a bit overzealous for the nature of the job I was getting. But anyway, I think your instincts are right. I wouldn’t wear a suit on a Saturday. Khakis or nice jeans and a decent top. Conservative non-memorable is probably best. Good luck!! Despite the fact that my people were kind of annoying (they gave me no notice and called me on my cell phone on a Sunday morning and wanted to interview me at my house asap but I was 3 hours away in a different town and not about to re do my weekend plans) it all worked out. Also I remember the difficulty of getting confirmation of every place I had lived for the last 10 years. At that time, I subletted a different place each summer, it was a pain.

  9. And as for those workout pants, sizing? At 5’5″ and 125, am I small or medium? Anyone know? Thanks in advance. The Target site is dreadful about sizing, sends me off into the ether.

  10. Sizing for the target pants: I think it depends on how comfortable you are with your thighs and how you carry your weight. I’m 5′ 2″ and 115 (a size 0/2 in regular pants), and I wear the small. I also have the extra-small pants as well, but I don’t wear them outside of my house, so you could buy both sizes and just see how you like them. That said, I don’t like my exercise pants to be particularly tight through the thigh–the extra-small fit me, I just don’t feel comfortable in them.

    1. And SO MANY things depend on how comfortable we are with our thighs:). I’m a 6 in Banana Republic and a 0 at Macy’s so go figure. I’m OK with my thighs, but not with, hmm, how to say this politely, display of certain contours. Well, that makes me sound like a prim old lady, but I imagine you see what I am getting at. Sounds like I would be a small. Thanks, C.

      1. I am the same height/weight as you and wear a size small in Champion workout gear. My legs aren’t particularly long and the regular length is fine.

        1. LPC, your best bet is to go to the local Target and try them on. I know there are several Targets within 20 minutes of you…

          1. Because wherever you are in the SF Bay Area, there are ALWAYS several Targets within 20 minutes. True that.

  11. I own those pants in black and gray and love love love them. Best work out pants ever.

    I am 5′ 3” and a size 4 and have the small (short) fits me great. The black ones are a bit tighter (perhaps different material?) than the gray ones I own. I would say you are most probably a small…although even though mine are a short, they are a bit above my ankle. But I prefer my workout pants to be a bit shorter so I don’t trip over the bottoms trying to run. The length would be the only thing I would question about a small for you, but it’s more personal preference, plus I did get the petite/short one.

    1. I agree with you…I have both the gray and black and LOVE them! Great pants at a great price.

  12. While re-reading my comment I guess those pants are not really above my ankle per se…they just graze the top of my foot. lol – nothing cropped or that goofy!

  13. Any issues with muffin top with the waistband of these pants? The picture makes the waistband look high/funny. I prefer pants with the roll-over waist, but these are a good price. Thanks.

    1. The pants are fairly high waisted so I don’t have any muffin top problems. They hit right below my navel.

      I seriously live in those pants…when I am home and relaxing those are what I am in!

  14. New Thread …

    I have an out of state “attorney retreat” coming up, with all of the other lawyers in a firm I just started with. It’s over a weekend. What should I plan to wear to the two full days of meetings that are scheduled? Should I wear what I would wear on a normal day to the office where I’m not planning to meet clients? Or can I wear jeans?

    No, there’s no one here that I know well enough to ask – that’s why I’m consulting with you, loyal C readers. Also, any other tips or things I should know about this sort of thing?

    1. For this kind of thing, I think you definitely need insider knowledge. It’s impossible to know whether everyone will show up in jeans or if it’s dress pants and sweater set, or even more formal. Is there a staffer who organizes it who you could ask? Do they post pictures somewhere of previous year’s events? Does your secretary (or one of your support staff) have an in with someone? I would say in the abstract that slacks, sweater set, pearls and nice flats would probably strike a middle ground, but those are only my instincts and they could be way off. What’s your office dress code during the week?

    2. Since this sounds like a orientation-t0-the-firm sort of retreat, and you’re new, I would dress up for the meetings. At my first-year orientation/retreat (though it was local), people wore professional (almost suits) clothes, and took it really seriously. But, if your retreat has “fun” events mixed in with the meetings, and your firm is a more casual place, then I’d wear your normal everyday clothes, but in any event bring along a range of clothes just in case.

      Also, really try to find someone to ask — the staff organizing the event; any other attorney in your class who’s going (just casually ask if they’re going / looking forward to it, then ask if they have any idea what you all are supposed to wear); anyone who went in previous years.

    3. Other tips — since you’re new, take the whole thing very seriously — act professional at all times, and don’t drink (much).

    4. My firm periodically holds all-lawyer retreats. One was scheduled about a month after I started. I still work with a senior partner who I met in the gym one morning. He was impressed that I’d gotten up early to exercise. Be the best person you can be on the retreat and have a good time!

      1. I’d wear a professional outfit with some kind of non-matching jacket (as in, not a complete suit) that you can take off if you feel like you are too dressed up. I agree, better to err on the side of dressy.

    5. I would pick a female attorney who seems nice and ask her what to wear. I almost showed up at my first firm retreat ready for business but luckily another attorney tipped me off that jeans/nice sweater/cute flats is what everyone else would be wearing. I wore a velvet blazer over my sweater just to make sure I didn’t look sloppy but when I arrived it was clearly a casual event. I don’t think anyone would fault you for asking “It’s my first retreat and I didn’t see anything about a dress code, what do you suggest?” If anything I think it shows you are conscientious and want to be prepared.

  15. I have a question about how to deal with harrassment in the workplace.

    A little background: I graduated from law school last May and started working as a law clerk in August. Our chambers has 4 women working in it: 1 judge, 1 secretary (who happens to be a licensed attorney), and 2 law clerks. Almost everything is great about the job. I love the work, the judge, and my co-clerk. The problem is the secretary. Since I started, she speaks to me as though I’m a child. Along with the condescending tone, she frequently makes remarks about my age and incompetence. A few examples: “I’ve been practicing law since before you were born.” (Nevermind the fact that she hasn’t practiced law in at least 10 years. She’s been a secretary.) “I have pennies older than you.”

    If it were just the condescending tone and remarks about my age, I could deal with her. I’m used to being the youngest person in a workplace. The problem is that she has made inappropriate comments to me. Two examples come to mind immediately. First, the day after my birthday, she asked me what I did the night before. I said that my fiance and I stayed in. She said, “Well, staying in can be fun too,” and then whispered something to her husband and giggled. I think we all know what she was insinuating. Inappropriate. Second, this past week, she received her bar card, as did the judge and my co-clerk. I didn’t receive mine at the same time. In front of the judge and my co-clerk, she said, “You didn’t receive your bar card because your license was taken away. The bar found out that you were a pole dancer in college.” I didn’t know how to respond to that. I have never said anything that would suggest I was a pole dancer, nor do I dress in a way to suggest that I have a pole dancing past. In other words, I dress conservatively and do not wear clear heels to work (or ever). And for the record, I have never been a pole dancer, and I am not a pole dancer now.

    I’ve figured out that the “kill her with kindness” approach does not work. She treats me worse if I am nice to her. I figured out that she likes attention, so my solution has been to ignore her. I do not speak to her or acknowledge her presence unless I absolutely have to. I realize, though, that this is not the mature way to deal with the situation. But I figure that if it makes my life easier, why not? I have also spoken to the judge about how the secretary treats me. The judge’s response is that the secretary is a lonely person and that she doesn’t mean anything by it.

    As shown by this week’s pole-dancer comment, the secretary is starting to treat me worse again. The silent treatment is no longer working.

    Do you have any suggestions on how I should deal with the secretary? My clerkship lasts for another year and a half, and I don’t want to be the target of inappropriate comments for the rest of my time at the court.

    1. Omg how terrible! You have my admiration for dealing with this for so long!

      Since your judge seems to condone this type of behavior, you could always start nipping back at her. For instance:

      Secretary: “I’ve been practicing law since before you were born.”

      You: “I realize that. I can only hope that one day I will have risen to your level! Oh, by the way, could you please do X for me?”

      Yeah, I know; not the most helpful suggestion. Sorry:/

      1. On a more serious note, what about going on the offensive in a more polite way? For instance, when she made that pole dancer remark in front of your judge, you could have

        (1) looked at her and asked “Wow, why would you insult a co-worker like that?” or

        (2) looked to your judge and said something like “Wow, when is our next session on workplace harassment prevention?”

        1. erin’s suggestion could work, although I might tone it down a bit to something like “you know, I know you don’t mean it, but there are some people that might really take offense at that kind of comment.” or some such. i like suggestion (2) b/c it is also “jokey”.

          my guess is with the pole dancing crack she was trying to make a joke and thought it would be funny *precisely* b/c you have never done/said/worn anything to make a pole dancing past scenario remotely plausible.

    2. Yikes, sorry. Sounds like you need to have a private word with her. Depending on the person, I might try one of two angles: 1) I was really bothered and kind of offended by your insinuations about time alone with my fiance and the pole dancing comment, especially because I am a conservative individual. I also felt like your comments might negatively impact the judge’s/our coworkers opinion of me, even if they know you’re joking. 2) Your comments about my age, implied promiscuity, etc. really hurt my feelings. [maybe even something like ‘I was particularly hurt because I really respect you as a person and thought that we could become good friends’ — could be hard to pull off though].

      Likely result if she’s not a horrible person is surprise and an apology and/or trying to excuse her behavior to make herself feel better; but if she doesn’t try to brush you off she should be more likely to watch what she says in the future. Assuming she stops, post-conversation behavior from you should clearly signal “we’re cool.”

    3. Really sorry you’re having to deal with such nonsense at work. This woman clearly has serious issues. Is she this rude to the others there? I don’t know that I’d fight back with snark, that might prompt escalation on her part.

      Maybe if you simply said, “Please don’t be rude to me.” Repeated as necessary, flat voice, no apology in your tone. Say it as a flat statement, not as a question – you don’t want to get into a discussion where you end up defending your point of view. Or explaining to her exactly what it is about her behavior that you don’t like – she knows perfectly well, and would only be trying to wrong-foot you.

      Good luck. Please don’t let her make you doubt herself. It’s not you, it’s her, being highly unprofessional.

      2. I agree with Delta’s great suggestion. A clear and simple statement that takes the high road might work on this secretary. I like that Delta said that you simply repeat the statement until it is no longer “fun” for the secretary to harass you. She gets sick kicks out of seeing you squirm or get flustered. I know those types. It’s disgusting and disappointing that a grown woman would find gross pleasure out of tearing down another female. Best of luck. If you were in NY, I got yo’ back. :)

      3. “Please don’t be rude to me.” This is great advice. I’ve found that deliberately rude people often try to pass their remarks off as a joke. It’s better to have people think you have no sense of humor than to let them walk all over you. I also like the Miss Manners line: “Why would you say a thing like that?” Said as quizzically and innocently as you can manage.

    4. Honestly, your comments about her being just a secretary despite her law degree etc. tend to suggest that you don’t have a lot of respect for her – and to be fair she has been a jerk to you but remember that you are just out of law school and have no experience while she has 10 years – maybe she is “just” a secretary but that doesn’t mean that she isn’t good at her job or that she doesn’t have something valuable to offer. If the judge has kept her around for that long then she clearly is doing something right.

      I’m not trying to suggest that this is completely your fault but when dealing with someone who has been there for 10 years a little humility goes a long way. “We have to work together over the next 18 months and your comments about pole dancing, etc. make me think I have done something to offend you, how can we move past this, etc”

      Worst case – it is 18 months and you learn how to work with people you don’t like – it is going to happen whereever you go.

      Sorry if this isn’t very sympathetic – I have seen a lot of new grads that come off graduation and passing the bar acting in a really arrogant manner and I would hate for a fellow Corporette to come across that way.

      2. I kind of agree. This woman’s behavior is very rude, but you will have to deal with rudeness in your career. Perhaps it’s sexual harassment in the sense that you are being treated differently because you are a woman, but since she is not your superior and will not be in a position to give you references, etc. it strikes me as more akin to the kind of rudeness you’ll have to deal with at times throughout your life, rather than really being a sex discrimination/hostile environment kind of thing. You just happen to work with a woman who has a chip on her shoulder about young women and perhaps an odd sense of humor. View it as a chance to practice being polite yet firm, standing up for yourself without being nasty. Lots of good suggestions here.

        I wouldn’t mention it to the judge again – you want his reference and going to him with what is basically just a personality conflict that he can’t do anything about is not going to endear you to him.

      3. Sorry, I hit reply before I read all the responses. Basically, ditto to your response!

    5. i’m so sorry this is happening. i was sexually harassed by a male co-worker at my pre-law school job and my main piece of advice is to start keeping a log of everything inappropriate. maybe even email it to yourself in a gmail thread each time after it happens for a nice time stamp. i kept a log, so when i was ready to discuss it with my (female) supervisor and she said “gosh is it possible you’re exaggerating?” i could pull out my log and show her i wasn’t exaggerating in the slightest. if this escalates and you need to involve your coworkers, a log will really help you.

      in this situation, i also agree with delta sierra – call a spade a spade and say something like “please don’t be rude to me” or “that is an inappropriate comment.” look her straight in the eye with no expression or tone when you say it. bullies keep bullying until they realize their target won’t tolerate it anymore. obviously she feels threatened by you and is trying to weaken your standing. let her know you won’t be pushed around.

    6. Interesting — except for the pole dancer comment, none of the rest of that would have raised a red flag for me — but maybe it’s all in the tone, and there could be other signals. But if it were me, I would’ve probably laughed at the pole dancer comment, knowing full well that anyone who knows me even for a second would know it’s not true, and a completely absurd thing to say.

      I would just chalk this up to jealousy on her part, and just try to disengage/ignore. Let the comments roll off your back — maybe if she realizes that you think they’re inappropriate, that could be egging her on. Also, how does your co-clerk deal with this? Can you get her to back you up or give you advice on how to handle this?

      1. The fact that the secretary made the stripper comment in the presence of the judge is what makes it totally inappropriate and not at all funny. I’m clerking next year (yippee!) and I am sitting here practically seething at the mental picture of what happened re: the stripper comment. Nevermind all the the other comments, which are rude and uncalled for. If somebody insulted me in front of my judge I would be furious.

    7. What did you respond to the pole dancing comment?
      I notice when I hear something I’m uncomfortable with, I smile (heh, heh) and sidle away – we are trained to be polite above all else. If you’re like me (and I hear ya with the ‘kill w kindness’ approach, I’ve tried it too), stop. Just be direct that you find her comments inappropriate.
      e.g.
      She: ‘They just found out you were a pole dancer in college.’
      You: Stare with raised eyebrows and a slightly wrinkled nose.
      ‘Thats inappropriate. ANND really weird.’ Walk away.

      Dont try to make jokes back (‘yeah. and you dont make enough money from your stripper night job so you have to work here?’) or try to be sarcastic or snippy back (‘just because you pole danced in college doesnt mean everybody else did, too’) or hit back in any mean way. Then you’re either stooping to her level or acknowledging/encouraging her comments.
      Just keep repeating ‘thats a very inappropriate thing to say’ until she gets the message. Easier said than done, I know.
      If she doesnt stop, at least you have publicly documented that you’ve expressed your displeasure at her comments.

      1. I agree, I think its important to emphasize how weird that comment is as well. This woman sounds like a bully, but when you turn it back on her (not in a mean way, just almost incredulous that she said that) she loses her power

    8. Something that usually works for me is to tell the other person straight-up that the line of conversation is making me uncomfortable. Then I’m quiet for a few awkward seconds – usually this is enough to embarrass/shame the other person. And then I change the subject.

      That said, I would probably laugh off some of the remarks.. especially the ones about her “practicing” law forever and having pennies older then you. The stripper pole comment is completely out of line, though.

      Also, keep in mind that if you go too far in letting her know how inappropriate you think her comments are.. she could always go running back to the judge and say “the new girl told me that I was inappropriate today.” Depending on how long the sec. has worked for the judge, the judge’s loyalties may run deep with the sec…. Choose your battles v. wisely.

    9. It’s great that you’ve already figured out the kill-w/-kindness approach isn’t working and that you’ve identified the secretary as having the issue, not you. I totally agree with the others who have recommended the direct approach. A coach once suggested I ask bullies like this, “What do you mean by that?” or “What are you trying to say?”

      I also agree with the caveat to be aware of the judge’s relationship with this secretary. I learned by experience that a judge’s chambers can be a dysfunctional family, and a judge will put up with a lot in a secretary who is loyal to him, has served him well, and who will be around long after your clerkship ends. Don’t bring the judge into your issues with the secretary, but be aware that the secretary may use her influence with the judge to turn him against you. It’s not fun to have to be so politically aware in such a close environment, but being so now will help you for the next 18 months. Make sure to go to lunch with other judge’s clerks and to keep a sense of humor.

      1. this approach works too “Gosh, what ever do you mean by that?” “I’m sorry, I’m not sure I understand your statement” etc. Also look ’em dead in the eye when you ask.

    10. This sounds like a horrible situation. I am sorry you have to deal with this person. It sounds like she has some real authority issues and isn’t comfortable in her own skin, and somehow she has made it your problem.

      The next time she makes an inappropriate comment, you could ask a neutral-sounding question that puts a spotlight on her question. Something like: “Hmm. That’s really interesting. Why do you think I was a pole dancer in college?” or “I’m curious, why would you say that I’m a pole dancer in college?” No sarcasm, no “tone” in your voice, and ask the questions with a sincere smile. Ideally, asking her “why” she said something would illustrate the idiocy and inappropriateness (not to mention possible illegality, harassment-wise) of her comments.

      Of course, this is how *I* would like to react. If I were in your position I would be a stammering mess. I’m a sarcastic person by nature and have been working on ways to respond to nasty people without being nasty myself (no “tone,” no emotional response, etc.) Hang in there, and good luck!

    11. I recommend that you suck-it-up, which I know is hard to do. Been there; done that! She is passive-aggressive, and those types are almost impossible to deal with – you never win. Keep in mind that every time she makes derogatory comments about you, she embarrasses herself. Her comments also speak volumes about how insecure she is. While she may think that she is making a fool of you, she really is making a fool out of herself. How to suck-it-up? Keep telling yourself that she is troubled person who is extremely in secure who needs to put others down to feel good about herself although we know that her strategy never works – she will not feel better about herself. She will likely feel worse about herself. When she starts on you, tell yourself, “there she goes again!” In addition, remind yourself about why you are there – to gain valuable knowledge and practical experience. The other thing is that maybe it’s good for you early in your career to have such as experience – use it as a learning tool – how to deal with difficult people. I know that it’s a challenge. Best of luck to you!

    12. Hi BMP,

      No fun at all! While, I agree with the other posters that asking the secretary to please not be rude to you will likely work in many situations, with her, I’m afraid it might not. For example, she makes the Pole Dancer comment, you say Please do not be rude to me, she says Oh, I’m not being rude; just honest. I can hear the whole exchange and then see you feeling even worse.

      Another suggestion might be to just ask her what her intentions are. For example, Pole Dancer Comment, you, “gosh, why would you say something like that?” She only has has a few response options…

      “Because it was funny.” In which case you can say, “oh, well, it wasn’t to me.” Just very matter-of-fact.

      Or she could say, “I dont’ know. Maybe because it’s true.” In which case you can say, “well, since it’s not true, it feels rude to me.” Again, very matter-of-fact.

      This scenario keeps you from putting yourself in a position to ‘ask’ her to please do anything. Instead, it allows her to vocalize her intentions and then allows you to simply let her know how her comment made you feel. To me, this is best solution. And then, if she makes another similar comment, you can light-heartedly say, “I know you probably just trying to be funny, but I felt offended.”

      And lastly, while we do not always like this, try to remember that no one can “make” you feel anything (which is why, in my opinion, asking her to be nice is not necessarily the best option). Instead, getting her to regonize that her intentions are less than noble – which I’m sure she already knows, but somehow it feels different when volcalized – will likely have the most beneficial long term results. Instead, try to recognize the facts – her antagonistic comments are very counterproductive to an enjoyable workplace. Perhaps simply stating this to her would be enough.

      Good luck! No one likes an uncomfortable workplace.

    13. BMP – A couple of questions. I’m not trying to be accusatory here, but just trying to look at things from another perspective.

      To be honest, your comment suggests that you have no respect for this “secretary.” Assuming she does more than fetch coffee and make copies for the judge, she’s probably more of an assistant/staff member of the judge’s chambers. She also appears to have the respect of the judge and to be on good terms with the judge.

      Do you think you may have started the cycle by treating her in a dismissive, “I’m better than you” manner? I’m not excusing her behavior, and the pole dancing comment was very much over the top and inappropriate … just asking you to supply the same level of scrutiny to your own behavior that you do to hers. Do you think you there is any way you could talk to her and try to restart the relationship with a healthy sense of respect on both sides?

      At the end of the day, I’m not really sure if this rises to the level of workplace harassment – do you think a complaint to HR will go anywhere? And, frankly, you need to think about your future after the clerkship. You want this judge as a reference? Make sure the judge will remember something more about you than you being the clerk who couldn’t get along with her secretary.

      Just my two cents before you take a hasty action that will haunt you later.

    14. Sort of off topic, but Are you really disqualified from the bar for pole dancing? (Not an issue of relevance to my life, of course, but hypothetically) I mean, it’s a legal profession, doesn’t entail stealing, and though many find it distasteful, is it ethically or legally any worse than being a bartender, or dealer at a legal casino, or model, hooters waitress, or something?

      A bit of staircase wit on that point, I might play along. . .”Oh no, whatever will I do, they’ve found out about my secret! I guess I’ll have to go back to it. Good think I’m so HOT!”

      You said the judge said she was a “lonely person” and doesn’t mean anything by it. Maybe this is a way to get attention and a power play. You might try to engage in some witty banter. It’s a risk, but apparently the judge isn’ t bothered by it.

      “Of course you’ve got penny’s older than me. Were you around when they invented money?” (Also, dinosaur jokes, invention of cars, electricity, carbon paper jokes, typwriters, when you started lawyers were still wearing wigs, Revolutionary war, went to school with Clarence Darrow, remember when Lincoln was shot etc.)

      “Staying in can be fun too” – “Don’t I know it” with a wink. Or, “Of Course, have you ever played Yahtzee/ watched Jeopardy/ Read Anna Karenina? It’s a blast”

      When speaking to you slowly or condescendingly, “I know you haven’t got that much time left on this earth, so you can hurry it up” “I’m young, not stupid”, “Did you know, that English is in fact my first language”

      “My mother taught me to respect my elders, but I still disagree”

      “I’m sure you remember what it’s like to be young”

      “You’re right, I am pretty young. Want to play Barbies later?” “have you seen my teen beat?” “Don’t you think Edward Cullen is Dreamy?!”

      As a response to whispering I always like, “Do you have something you’d like to share with the class?” or a jokey “Secrets secrets are no fun, secrets secrets hurt someone” in a sing song voice.

      “Ha Ha, it’s practically Comedy Central in here with you around” (sarcastically) Or, “your going to give Chris Rock/ Stephen Colbert/ Dane Cook/Margaret Cho/Jay Leno a run for his/her money” Or “Don’t give up your day job!” “Ba Da Cha” (Like the drum roll from a bad joke, with air drums)

      Not that this actually solves the problem, because it sort of encourages her, but it might make you feel better!

      1. If pole dancing = stripping, then I’d say it is worse than the other things you mentioned. I don’t think it could be an automatic ding because it’s not a crime, but it is something that speaks to your “moral turpitude” and depending on the strictness of the state bar, they could take it into account.

        After all, they denied that one guy bar admission in NY because he had too much student loan debt..

        And I would be careful about going too far with the jokes back at her, because if someone else were to overhear, they might think worse of you for saying some of those or for being generally disrespectful to someone with more tenure in the chambers than you.

        1. I don’t see how pole dancing/stripping speaks to one’s moral stature. There is a huge difference between incurring and not paying your student loans over the course of 15 years, which was what happened in the NY case, and engaging in the legal activity of pole dancing/stripping. (Last time I checked, nude dancing was also protected by the First Amendment.) As a side note, I can’t help but think there would be a lot fewer male attorneys if the bar examiners disqualified every candidate who ever patronized a strip club.

          At any rate, employment as a stripper didn’t affect the bar admission of one of my dearest friends from law school, who is a fine lawyer and one of the most honest and straightforward people I’ve ever met.

          As for dealing w/ the secretary, keep in mind that your judge has been working with the secretary for some time and likely will continue working with the secretary long after your clerkship finishes. She doesn’t appear to be interested in speaking to the secretary about what she may view as simply an interpersonal conflict. She may also have had a behind-the-scenes conversation with the secretary.

          Going forward, I would be polite whenever engaging with the secretary. If she makes a comment similar to the “penny” comment, I would probably just say something noncommittal (“hm” or “that’s interesting”) and move on. If she makes a sexually inappropriate comment, I’d probably respond the same way, and perhaps log it. I would not engage in banter with her, because it could be construed as a license to continue with those kinds of comments.

    15. Thank you for all of the responses. I appreciate having outside opinions for how to deal with this situation. Next time she says something sexually inappropriate, I will respond more directly. Being more assertive while still remaining respectful is a skill I need to improve.

      And I should mention that I didn’t mean anything derrogatory by saying that she’s been a secretary for at least the last 10 years. I walked into the clerkship giving her nothing but respect because, let’s be honest, she knows more about being a lawyer than I will know for a very long time. Then, she started making snide comments about my age and making sexually inappropriate comments, and I started to lose respect for her, which came out in my post. Again, I apologize for insinuating that I thought less of her because she’s a secretary. I’m ashamed that I came off that way to the readers of my post.

      2. I’m a little late to the game with this one, but I know full well how dysfunctional judge’s chambers can be and how one “bad apple” can make your workplace miserable. Here’s my advice:

        1. Don’t expect any help from the judge. She has made it clear where she stands; concentrate on keeping your relationship with her positive and drama-free. You don’t want her remembering you as “that over-sensitive clerk that kept bothering me with petty issues.”

        2. Understand that this secretary (assuming she has been with the judge for some time) has probably been treating law clerks like this for years–from her perspective law clerks come and go, and I’m sure you are not the first fresh from law school female clerk she’s acted like this towards. It’s “her thing.”

        3. I think she is testing you to see what you will put up with. I would not shoot a barbed comment back at her in response, it will just make her keep coming at you and expecting you to react. Who knows, maybe she likes the banter and is hoping you will react this way. If this is not your personality, you will just end up feeling worse about the whole thing.

        4. Consider calling a former law clerk (female if possible) to ask for advice. Maybe open with an unrelated, neutral question and then say something like “I’m starting to think based on ____’s comments that she doesn’t like me very much. Do you have any advice for how I can work with her better?” Also, I don’t think you mentioned how she treats your co-clerk…is it the same, or does it seem like she is picking on you alone? This might help you figure out whether this is a pattern or whether something specific about you has inspired her behavior.

        5. I think the overall best reaction is no reaction. As others have said, she is trying to get something out of you, whether it’s enjoyment from seeing you squirm, a witty retort, anger, etc. People like this don’t change their behavior when asked nicely, and the politics of judges chambers aren’t going to allow you to get her to stop in a non-nice way. If you don’t give her anything, she will eventually stop out of boredom. If she pushes you for a response, say “I’m sorry, I couldn’t think of anything nice to say in response to that” and leave it at that.

        6. I can’t speak for the state system, but in the federal system I would not go to any higher authority than your judge about this unless it rises to the level of actionable harassment and you simply cannot do your job. No good will come of it; you will be blacklisted from the judge’s perspective and nothing will change because there is nobody in the federal system who is in a position to do anything about it.

        Hope this helps, and good luck. The best news of course is that clerkships are temporary and you will be out of there soon.

  16. I would also recommend that you keep a journal/log of the date and circumstances surrounding each inappropriate comment, along with as close of a quote as you can remember, so that if you do need to escalate it, you will have documented examples and won’t just seem like you are complaining about someone being mean to you without having any concrete evidence.

    1. I think the issue is that the co-clerk and judge were there when the secretary made the pole dancing comment and didn’t comment one way or another.

      I agree with others that the best approach is to simply tell the secretary each time she says something offensive that she is being rude or insulting in some sort of short, plain statement.

    2. I have two men at work who say stupid things to me frequently. They really are “trying to make conversation” and I usually ignore them, but occasionally when I am in a bad mood, I consider telling off. They are not in my “chain of command” and there is no reason for me to interact with them. You apparently do have to work with this woman. Is it possible that she has so little in the way of social skills that she thinks she is “just making conversation” or “drawing you out?” To make things more “smooth” you could pretty much ignore her and change the subject: “How was your weekend?” “What did you have for dinner last night?” ..or whatever would actually be an appropriate subject for chit chat. If her comments really are bothering you, I might just state the obvious (no questions, just short declaratives): “Stop picking on me.” “Stop insulting me.” “Show some respect.” … or the vulgate: “Get off my back.” The pole dancing remark and the thing with your husband do sound bad. I guess I would say “Kind of crude; see you later.” The question is: does she have no social skills at all or is she really trying to disturb you? And if, for no good reason, she hates you, is there really any way to change her irrational feelings?

    3. I don’t know, keeping a “log” of non-sexual harrassment seems a little much. I mean, writing down that someone told me that they had pennies older than me? That’s really not “harrassment,” it’s just a joke of sorts that older workers say to younger workers when they’re feeling a little insecure. I’d feel pretty silly telling someone that I thought this was “completely inappropriate”, it’d seem like I just can’t handle dealing with people who say things I don’t like.

      Really not trying to minimize the legitimate inappropriate comments, but the pennies one is just not inappropriate, and so that makes me wonder how many of them actually are. Sorry, just IMO.

      1. The pennies comment may not be inappropriate, but it is clearly a power play. Keeping a log may be overkill, but it could help the OP to identify trends in the secretary’s behavior, and it can also remind her that she’s not imagining things or being overly sensitive–or vice versa, it could help her figure out if she is actually being hypersensitive.

  17. Why do women do this to each other??

    This is harassment. The secretary is not your problem, maintaining a professional office IS the judge’s problem. Keep a log. If you can, speak to the secretary privately, you don’t have to ask her to stop more than once. Then speak to the judge, finally your Human Resources department.

    1. Don’t kid yourself, men engage in this type of behavior, too. I have worked with both women and men that have acted this way. Why do women ask the question you are asking? By doing so, women undermine the notion that women can work together. It’s not a fact that women can’t work together although at times some women don’t get along with other women. This dislike towards others in the work place also exists for men not working well with other men, women not working well some men…

      As women rise in the workplace, please do not undermine them by saying that women are women’s worst enemy b/c that’s essentially what your question means. Women have to stop buying into this notion because it’s not a fact in every working relationship involving women.

      1. I think this woman is threatened by you. (And probably your co-clerk, too.) I’ve worked with women like that.

        My advice would be to say, “Wow, that’s a really rude thing to say,” and walk away. Especially if it’s in front of your co-clerk and the judge.

        If you’re interested in having this judge as a reference, then you have to suck it up. If you are moving to another city after this clerkship, then it wouldn’t hurt to go to the court administrator or whoever if your judge is condoning the behavior.

  18. At what age is it appropriate for a professaional woman to let their hair go gray? I’ve had mostly gray hair since I was 25 – I’m currently 32 – at what point is it professional and not frumpy to go au natural?

    1. My hair color and style is very similar to this woman’s http://www.life.com/image/85661401. And there is no frump happening with her or me.

      I am forty six and started to go grey when I was in my early thirties and never attempted to cover it. Not all women are comfortable with grey hair, so you just have to decide what works for you. You will, however, have to pay careful attention to cut, condition and styling.

        1. Why thank you! It’s a shame that society dictates that men with grey hair are “distinguished”, while women with grey hair are somehow “frumpy”.

    2. In my opinion, frump is a function of hair style, not hair color. I also think age is irrelevant. I know women who have been naturally gray since their 20s and always look fantastic. I also know women with awful, shlumpy gray hair, terrible dye jobs, and everything in between.

      I would ask a woman with gray hair in a fabulous cut for the name of her stylist. If you don’t know anyone personally like this, ask a total stranger. I have never had a bad response to this: “Wow! Your hair is gorgeous! Would you mind giving me the name of your salon? Who cuts it?” Then make an appointment with that stylist to get advice on how to grow your gray out in a flattering way. A new cut might be the first thing to tackle.

      I think what will be tricky is the transition from dyed to natural. A good stylist/colorist should be able to help it happen slowly and not awkwardly. You definitely don’t want to go through a “skunk stripe” stage…

      A full service salon could also direct you to a good makeup consultation to help with how that may need to change as your hair color changes.

  19. Hi everyone. I’ve been following Corporette for ages, but this is my first time commenting, and I have a question.

    I’m a 2L in New York and I have an interview at a small firm on Tuesday morning. There’s already a lot of snow on the ground, and more forecasted to come Monday night/Tuesday morning. What do I do about footwear? I plan to wear my normal interview attire–dark/conservative skirt suit, wool overcoat, etc., but I think walking in heels in these kinds of conditions will be semi-unsafe, not to mention the condition my shoes will end up in. I have winter boots but of course they’re totally inappropriate–should I wear them anyway, then change when I get to the office? What do I do with the boots? I live in Brooklyn and the office is in Manhattan, so the commute will require walking on both ends of a subway ride. Thanks for any help you can provide!

    1. Definitely wear the boots and then change into your heels in the lobby of the building before you go up. Bring a professional looking large bag that your boots can fit into – a large black tote, for example. If the weather really is bad, I’m sure no one would fault you for having an extra bag with boots in it. If anyone says anything, just make a lighthearted comment about the weather.

    2. Could cab … expensive, but would save the trouble of hiding your boots once you got there. Or else, get a large black tote, stash your boots in there before you go in, and hand both the tote and your coat to the receptionist once you arrive. If any of the interviewers see these stealthy moves, make a joke about it … I’m sure they aren’t hiking to work in heels in that weather … might (ahem) break the ice.

  21. FYI — I just went to Ann Taylor and they’re having a sale where you can get 1 full-priced item for 40% off! Yippee! Not sure if it works online or not.

    I used it to get my first LBD. I feel so grown up.

    1. congratulations on your first LBD! I hope you have many happy occasions to wear it.

    3. What a great deal! Too bad it ends today; I can’t seem to find anything I like enough to take a risk on (been so long that I’ve shopped at AT, I don’t know how their things fit me anymore!)

      1. Ok, what do people think about this jacket? Too casual for the office? http://www.anntaylor.com/catalog/product.jsp?productId=23276&N=1200011&pCategoryId=3939&categoryId=187&Ns=CATEGORY_SEQ_187&loc=TN&defaultColor=Light%20Ground%20Pepper&defaultSizeType=Regular

        Also, did anyone else notice, last time I was at AT looking for pants, ALL of them were way too long, even if I were to wear heels — and I’m 5’8″!! I even tried on petite! (those were too short, of course) Does anyone else have this problem with AT pants? Do you just bite the bullet and get them tailored? Are any of their styles better than others for length?

        1. The jacket looks fine to me unless you work at an ultra-conservative office.

          I used to love the AT/ATL pant length and have noticed that they are way too long now. The only pants I’ve bought recently are casual so I just roll them as needed. I think the length changed once they switched from the Lindsay/Margo (or whatever) to Modern/Signature. I’m not sure who is supposed to wear the tall sizes.

        2. That jacket would be fine at my office, as long as you paired it with more professional pants, shoes, etc.

        3. I was thisclose to buying that jacket today. I tried it on with a basic black pencil skirt and my gray v-neck t-shirt and it looked really sharp.

          That was actually the first time I’d been in Ann Taylor in about five years. I’m in my early 20’s and I stopped shopping there because the clothes were starting to look like something my mom would wear. Mind you, my mother is a fashionable woman, but she’s also significantly older than me. I walked in there today and it was practically a different store! There were a handful of outfits I would have taken straight off the mannequins. Color me impressed.

        4. I love that jacket! Definitely not too casual for the office.

          I always have to get pants hemmed, anyway. I’m on the edge of petite vs regular pants (5’4″), so it never quite works out for me to just buy pants off the rack.

  22. Here’s a clothing-related question I hope someone here can help with:

    Is there somewhere I can go in NYC to have a full set of measurements taken? I have a hard time making sense of online size charts, and my do-it-yourself efforts (with a friend and a fabric tape measure) have ended in hilariously unrealistic results. I think I need to enlist a professional. I’d prefer to pay a modest fee for the service upfront; I don’t want to feel obligated to buy something or need to covertly scribble down numbers.

    2. I think the problem can also be that retailers’ size charts are generally unreliable — so much depends on how a particular item is cut. And I’m sure those models in catalogs/online have all sorts of clothespins on whatever side isn’t facing the camera to ensure it’s hard to tell. Oh for the day that using a size chart, I can tell that ordering a S, based on the bust measurement, will result in an item fitting me the same way that the XS fits the model, based on her bust measurement.

      if you follow some of the same brands, gigisgoneshopping.blogspot.com — 20-something tries on clothes from a number of retailers for IRL comparison. Would love pointers to anyone doing this for higher-end looks as well!

    3. Brooks Brothers will do measurements for you, and you can write it down & just tell them that you want to know so you can order online generally. They are usually very good & their measurements are taken with professional clothes in mind. Then buy a button down & you don’t have to feel bad (if that’s an issue) — everyone needs a nice shirt in their wardrobe.

      1. I think I’d still feel awkward, but thanks for the tip. I feel pretty uncomfortable in Brooks Brothers to begin with, so maybe I should just brazen it out– it might help me get over myself. =)

        1. I’ve found that just walking in there like I belong, and wearing professional clothes at the time, helps me feel better and get better service. Go in with confidence and you’ll be fine; but keep in mind that some of the BB salespeople will be snobby no matter what.

        2. I feel the same way! I commented to my hubby last week that although I really like some of their clothes, I have NEVER been made to feel valued in the store (no matter what I’m wearing), and it just means I have no desire to go back. shame.

  23. Question about shoe repair. I have a pair of slingbacks which I love, but I got my heel caught in a grate and the leather heel strap on one of the shoes snapped as I tried to extricate myself. I hate to throw out the shoes (they are otherwise in excellent shape.) Is this a problem a cobbler could fix or do I need to let them go?

    1. I think it’s definitely worth a visit to the cobbler. They are normally pretty up front about what they can and can’t fix. Although they might have to replace both straps (for conformity’s sake). In my experience, I’m always pretty amazed at what they can fix.

    2. Grates are the worst. I broke a pair of my favorite pumps rushing to court in NY, which the judge demanded someone from the company with settlement authority be there versus outside counsel, only to have him issue a continuance! I was far more upset about my ruined shoe, then the unnecessary trip to NYC.

      Mine weren’t repairable, but i’d take them in and give it a shot.

  24. Help! I was just invited to a fancy gastronomic event (as a present for my birthday – it is being held at the Sofitel, a fancy hotel) and the dress code is “Black Tie, with decorations”.

    What on earth does that mean?! Can I wear, at long last, my beautiful floor-length black-and-white stripey DVF gown (the one that ended up in her American Express commercials), and not have it be too loud? (assuming that I can fit into it currently, post-holidays.) Should I go with a more sedate champagne-colored raw silk strapless floor-length number that has been my tried-and-true black-tie friend for the past few years (and which my date has seen several times)? And – decorations? Am I supposed to show up with a feather boa and Groucho Marx glasses for decorations??

    1. I just realized that champagne-colored sounds a lot lighter than the second gown choice is. That is the official name of the color, but it is really more of darker taupe-y champagne color, if that makes sense.

        1. BUT HOW FANTASTIC if the OP showed up with her own decorations consisting of groucho marx glasses and those deedly-boppers from the 80s!!!

        2. I can’t tell you how grateful I am that you posted this! It did not even occur to me that it was an actual type of formal dress! One of my friends had decided that I should wear a tiara. I am probably not going to go with that now! (or the Groucho Marx glasses … :)

          1. Glad to help! Sounds like a fun event and a great chance to break out the dress you’ve been dying to wear. Have fun!

    2. I’m assuming this isn’t a work event?

      In which case wear whatever you’d like- sounds like a great time to bust out a favorite dress to me!

      1. Not a work event, but going with a partner from work and his wife (they are good friends with my date – now a client – who used to work here) – but I am thinking that it will be ok. They aren’t stuffy.

    3. Go for the DVF gown. Some men may be really dolled up (do men doll?) in military uniforms, and your dress will be appropriately fancy.

      My father is retired Army. Back when I was a kid and my parents went to events “with decorations,” my mother often wore a tiara. While I don’t recommend that for you, it gives you an idea of how “up” the dress-up got!

      BTW, I LOLed at the boa and glasses image…

    1. They’re giving you a security clearance, so they visit you, your former roommates, your neighbors, your old work …. Sometimes you can arrange to meet the investigator at a nearby government office building, but that’s not always possible.

      1. I did a home interview once as the roommate of the applicant, and was so nervous with the idea that what I did/say could affect her application! However it went fine, they really are just looking for terrorist connections, and if they have no suspicions then they just go through a checklist like they’re bored and want to go home.

        Also, my interviewer wore jeans or khakis (forget which) and a sports coat that looked as if he bought it in the 70s and wears it about once every 5 years, probably mainly for occasions like these. So, fashionable he was not, and probably wouldn’t have noticed what I was wearing unless it was so obviously weird or out of the ordinary.

  26. Lululemon – worth the sky-high price, or overrated? If worth it, which items have you been satisfied with, and if overrated, what are your complaints?

    1. Some items are worth it. I have a few of the tanks for yoga, and I love them because they come up really high. Other bra tops are so low cut, I fall out of them when I bend over during yoga class. I got them on sale I believe, but so worth it, IMO.

      As far as the 80 dollar pants…they would have to be on sale for me to even want to try them. I have yet to indulge myself in 80-100 dollar athletic pants as it seems unnecessary to me. I buy the champion ones mentioned in this thread.

      1. forgot, I also have a lot of the thongs from lululemon. Very comfy and would recommend them if you like thong underwear. :)

        1. Totally worth it if you are petite (like me) and have a hard time buying work-out clothes that are not too long in the torso and legs because the items can be hemmed for free (sale items as well).

          That being said, I did gasp a bit shelling out $100 for a pair of pants, but I wear them everyday day and wash them three times a week, and they still look great, so the CPW is not too high after a month or so.

  27. Ms. Basil:

    (1) Always, but always, wear a suit to a law firm interview. And if you get a job, start dressing super conservatively, observe the culture around you, and step it down as appropriate.

    (2) Don’t bring up your grades. If they bring it up, address how you are attacking the problem. Sound proactive and hard-working. Don’t whine, even if you had the worst most unfair final in the history of law school finals and your professor admitted that he threw the exams down the stairs, yours landed at the bottom, and that’s why you got the lowest grade in the class. (I realize this is pretty much a rehash of everything said already, but I’m procrastinating at work today so thought I’d throw in my two cents.)

    (3) You said that you don’t really know a lot about the firsm you got interviews with. I’m assuming you will do this, but if not, please, please, please research these firms before your interview. Nothing is worse than interviewing a candidate who clearly knows nothing about my firm. Look up the firm, look up the individual people you will be interviewing with, and be able to articular a reason why this firm is the right place for you. If an interviewee can’t do that with me, they get an automatic “don’t hire” vote from me, no matter how impressive their resume.

    1. Agree with (3). When doing my interviews I found it helpful (actually necessary) to take notes on each firm as I was researching them, and then review the notes shortly before the interviews. Don’t count on having time to research each firm the night before the interviews, and if you have several in one day, it’s easy to get mixed up.

  28. I am commenting on two items.

    First, I am astounded to hear about these home visits. I had no idea. I can’t imagine what the purpose would be.

    Second, regarding the lawyer who works as a secretary, you have to ask yourself, why would anyone do that. The best solution might be: take this person out (alone) for a nice lunch. Over food, say – “you might not realize this but you have hurt my feelings. Could we agree that in the future you will treat me like everyone else and not tease me about my age or anything else?” Promise her you will tell no one about this conversation. If this does not work, nothing will.

    1. As difficult as it may be to do something so nice for her, I love this idea. I’m not a fan of the “you have hurt my feelings please stop” approach in the course of an office interaction, mostly because I think it is too difficult to strike the perfect tone without putting her on the defensive or coming across as overly sensitive (and thus even younger and weaker than she apparently perceives you to be). But in the context of such a nice and rare (from her perspective) gesture I think it is brilliant. You will either become her most favorite law clerk ever, or you will gain the peace of mind of knowing that she is just a sociopath.

      1. The most genius aspect of this idea is that it makes you look great and it’s directly responsive to what the judge explained as the problem. If the judge hears about it, you look kind, generous and honest. If the situation worsens and you decide you have to go to the judge again, you can tell her that you tried to resolve the situation by going out of your way to do nice things for the secretary but it didn’t help. In contrast and by no fault of your own, many of the other suggested solutions (including mine) drag you further into the problem and could give the judge the impression that you are difficult to get along with. Sorry about the repeat postings, I’ve been sitting in my clerkship all day wondering how I would handle this situation!

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