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Tuesday’s Workwear Report: Perfect Cashmere Cardigan

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A woman wearing a green cardigan top with denim pants

Our daily workwear reports suggest one piece of work-appropriate attire in a range of prices.

There have been some ups and downs with the quality of the J.Crew cashmere over the years, but I was really pleased with this cardigan when I saw it in person. The knit is soft, but sturdy, and the buttons look fantastic. It comes in ten colors, including this gorgeous blue-green. 

The sweater is $178 at J. Crew. The store has a number of other sweaters in their “Perfect” line, including a crewneck, a cableknit crewneck, and several graphic/print options. The pictured sweater comes in 10 colors, sizes XXXS-3X, with some sizes running low in some colors.

Sales of note for 5/8:

  • Nordstrom – Savings event – up to 25% off! Good deals on Veronica Beard, Vince, Reiss (esp. coats), and Boss, as well as Wit & Wisdom and NYDJ
  • Ann Taylor – Mother's Day Event: 40% off your purchase. Readers love this popover blouse, and their suiting is also in the sale.
  • Boden – 15% off new styles with code
  • Express – $39+ summer styles + 25% off everything else
  • J.Crew – Up to 50% off swim, dresses, and more
  • J.Crew Factory – Up to 60% off everything, and extra 50% off clearance
  • Lands' End – 50% off sitewide — lots of ponte dresses come down under $25, and this packable raincoat in gingham is too cute
  • Lo & Sons – Mother's Day Sale: Up to 40% off — reader favorites include this laptop tote, this backpack, and this crossbody
  • Loft – 50% off your purchase + free shipping, plus 2 for $28 tanks and tees
  • MAC – Enjoy 30% off lip products and receive a 4-piece Mother's Day gift with $90
  • M.M.LaFleur – Try code CORPORETTE15 for 15% off.
  • Ruti – Take $55 off your purchase with code 55ONUS
  • Sephora – Free same-day delivery for Mother's Day with code
  • Talbots – 50% off wear-now styles (5/8 only)
  • The Outnet – Extra 30% off select styles, including Veronica Beard, Victoria Beckham, and Marni.
  • TOCCIN – Use code CORPORETTE15 for 15% off!
  • Vivrelle – Looking to own less stuff but still try trends? Use code CORPORETTE for a free month, and borrow high-end designer clothes and bags!

317 Comments

  1. Has anyone bought a work dress recently that you liked? Preferably something that has some interesting details, and sheath or swing dresses look best on me. Budget up to $200

    1. I bought the ZOE AND CLAIRE Short Sleeve Structured Sweater Dress from Nordstrom recently and love it. True to size and about $120. Looks more expensive than that.

    2. Boden has some cute ponte and corduroy picks this season. Some of the corduroy ones are structured enough for work! I just placed an order (they’re 22% off today!) so can’t report which ones I like on me yet!

      1. This is a good option. I bought a Boden Ottoman dress this spring and it’s great quality, machine washable, and wears well. I like that it has sleeves and doesn’t need a blazer.

        A little less recent, I like my MM LaFleur Etsuko.

  2. Any advice for how to handle a difficult time at work? My team was reorged and we are under new management, and I am finding the situation really challenging. (For example – new leadership opened our meeting with me by asking me who I would fire, say we should continue to expect cuts on an ongoing basis). At the same time, new roles within the company and outside of it seem limited. Even when I have found new roles there have been some pretty exceptional red flags (this job will require all waking hours dedication with work on vacations/weekends). The team atmosphere under this management is declining pretty spectacularly with lots of infighting, escalations and terrible behavior all around. Also, with the restructuring – my workload is getting to the point that this is unsustainable too. Every day I just think I should resign for my sanity and mental health – but well, I don’t know how long I will be unemployed for and its money.

    Any advice? I know I have to leave but this is taking such a huge toll on me personally I am not sure what to do to survive until I find a new gig.

    1. I’m so sorry. I was at a job where my department went from 14 people to 2, because of layoffs and not replacing people who left, so I understand how demoralizing it can be when the ship is going down and it feels you have no life raft. I highly recommend the book Burnout Immunity. It will bring you comfort and research-based ideas to cope. The stories are so relatable and inspiring. Also, keep job searching. Just because something is very hard doesn’t mean it is impossible forever. Persistent effort will get you results eventually! I was able to land a much better job within 6 months of ongoing job applications and interviews. Have faith!

    2. I’m sorry, that sounds awful. I’d tell you to resign, but I know it’s really not that easy. The only advice I can offer is to stay out of the fray as much as possible and disengage from the infighting.

    3. You have to stop investing so much mental energy into work. It’s a job. Just do what you’re paid to do, stop worrying about the team and morale and everything not your core functions. It’s easier said than done but critical. You will only mess up your financial life by not being mentally strong and resilient.

    4. I recommend the book the Good Enough Job by Simone Stolzoff. It was really helpful for reframing. If your workload is unsustainable, figure out what must be done, and then take the rest to to a manager and ask them to prioritize. DO NOT kill yourself for a job that doesn’t love you back.

      Spend time networking IRL with people near you. People help people they’ve been to coffee with. And even if you’re exhausted, muster up the time to put together some LinkedIn alerts, get your resume and CL together, and you can apply quickly when you get an alert.

      Hang in there.

  3. Does anyone have a Mighty music player? Looking for music players for my young kids and this seems like a good option since we already have a Spotify subscription. Its pricey though so I’m wondering if its worth it and works well?

    1. I have one and it’s a huge pain. I stopped using it. Will randomly not sync with airpods or with iphones.

      1. We use an old iphone with everything but Audible and Libby removed. We had an MP3 player and it was so clunky and difficult to use.

        1. This is an admittedly stupid question but I tried and couldn’t figure out how to do this without getting a separate phone plan. Do you need to unlock it? I’d love to give my kids my old phone to use for music over wi-fi at home without letting it have any other functions.

          1. Separately, to answer OP’s question, I have struggled with this and haven’t figured out a solution beyond an old iPad with Spotify at home. Some people like Alexa speakers, etc., but I don’t want a device that listens. It seems like all the portable music players, Mighty included, are too much work.

            Would love for someone to invent a wi-fi enabled iPod that can be connected to a service that plays music on demand. With Apple Music and the number of kids/adults who are trying to disconnect from their omnipresent phones, it seems like a missed opportunity for Apple.

          2. Oh it doesn’t have an active sim, it’s just on WiFi. So essentially a iPod touch from the late aughts. We can download from Libby for planes, trains and automobiles.

          3. AIMS – where are you running into problems with the iphone-on-wifi-only install? It should just work

            iirc, some older versions of iOS did get whiny if they didn’t have a sim during activation – which should be a 1-time thing but possibly got triggered with a software update – in which case, you could put your current phone’s active sim in the old Iphone, install all the updates, dismiss the “activation needed” popup and then just swap your sim back to your real phone

          4. @anecdata -it’s at the very start. I deleted it, reset it to factory settings, and cant get past the sign in start page. Maybe I need to just take it my local Apple Store.

          5. Oh gotcha – I am not as familiar with iOS as I am with android, but I am 95% sure the factory reset triggered it needing a sim to get through the initial set up. After you do that initial set up, it won’t need a sim anymore.
            So either:
            1. Pop an active sim from a different phone into your old iphone; run through the setup, then remove the sim and put it back in your current phone
            2. Pay for just 1 month of service on a plan for the old iPhone, use that sim to go through the activation, then just cancel it.
            (For either, you’ll need the phone unlocked, unless you happen to have an active sim for the original network you got the phone on)

      2. Can I ask when you bought it? I’m wondering if its gotten better with newer versions?

  4. My aunt was just diagnosed with ovarian cancer and has a slog of treatment ahead of her. My dad, her brother, let me know that she wanted to share the news but didn’t really feel like getting calls or dealing with people about it (which I completely understand). She recently unexpectedly lost her husband. My cousin, who is in his late 40s and recently had a heart attack himself, moved in with her and is managing the treatment process.

    What should I send? What would you want if you were in your late 60s/early 70s and just had a sucky go of health things these past few years and were staring down a cancer dx and a lot of upcoming radiation?

    She is in MA and I want to avoid food because she has some complex dietary restrictions.

    Flowers? Card? Pretty things? She’s not a big reader as far as I know.

    2. My mom appreciated a small, auto-shutoff electric blanket, a gift card to go to her hair stylist for a very short pixie prior to hair loss, and shirts that specifically accommodate ports / shawls or wraps that she can drape around her for infusion days.

    3. Definitely a thoughtful card with a note. Maybe also some warm high-quality socks and a very soft cashmere wrap or open cardigan. It’s getting cold and it’s nice to have soft comforting things when your body is feeling bad.

    5. I would send a heartfelt card. You know her best, but when my mom was diagnosed with cancer, some of the well-meaning gifts made her a little uncomfortable. If your aunt is not wanting to “deal with people about it,” she may fall into this category. Cards are good. Flowers are good. Blankets and physical things may not be the way to go.

      1. +1 – everyone thinks “I’ll send socks, or blankets, or cardigans, or tea, or coloring books” and depending on your person, this can be really awkward. It just reminded me that I was sick to get a bunch of fuzzy socks. Cards, maybe including a giftcard for food delivery if she has dietary restrictions, were really the best.

        1. +2. My sibling has ovarian cancer and has specific sensory preferences so she ended up giving away some well meaning items like this. A card and giftcard for food is the best. Also if you think she may be willing to listen to audiobooks or shows during infusions, some sort of device and headphones may be nice. The infusions can take 5-6 hours depending on regimen.

      2. I would send a card and, depending on who she is, additional cards throughout treatment or frequent texts with something funny she might like (short videos, gifs, etc). Being in treatment is long, boring, and isolating. People all send cards and stuff when they hear about your diagnosis (which is lovely) and then move on with their lives (which is normal).

        I had a couple of friends who told me early on that they would keep sending cards and texts and had no expectations of responses. One friend sent a lot of pictures and updates about things her family was doing, which I loved!
        These contact points made me feel that I wasn’t forgotten as I had to isolate a lot and kept me connected. Sometimes I had the energy to reply and sometimes I didn’t.

        Also, ask her in 3 weeks, 8 weeks, etc what you can do for her. Each treatment is harder than the one before it. She doesn’t know what she is going to need 8 weeks from now.

    6. I heard about Spoonful of Comfort dot com on here and have sent it several times and each time the recipients were super happy with it. Most recently sent it to a cancer patient who was delighted to have some nice soup when he didn’t have much of an appetite. And it comes frozen so she can save it for later if she wants.

      1. +1

        It’s really pricey, but I think sending something like this, and then sending a really nice card and writing a thoughtful message inside. Tell her how much she means to you, and give a couple nice memories of her or stories you heard about her and your father. Something that will make her smile.

      2. My parents loved these packages when my dad was dying. It was warm, nutrious, easy, and could be frozen. I cannot recommend this company enough.

  5. The Democrats are infuriatingly weak. What was the point of all this suffering if only to concede on the subsidies? Now the holiday travel chaos leverage will be lost when this is revisited. Pathetic excuse for a party.

    3. According to the WP, the holiday travel chaos will still happen because it’s hard to undo the damage at this point. As to your question, I think it’s because the subsidies couldn’t be changed at this point and the harm from lack of food aid and closure of head start problems was growing. I think this is only a loss for dems if they treat it as such. You can’t play a game of chicken with someone willing to drive off a cliff. Everyone complaining is mad that they didn’t drive off, too.

      1. Yes, I started off angry but have come around. Too many people are furloughed or going without food aid to continue this shutdown in good conscience. Now, Republicans will own the pain that is to come, especially if they refuse to negotiate subsidies in January.

        1. I just wish I could feel confident that the electorate will connect the dots and realize what Republicans are doing. I’m slightly hopeful based on the election results, but ….

          1. I’m hopeful everyone other than MAGA will. Trump swayed a lot of non-MAGA in 2024, because of (his lies about) the economy. People vote based on their wallet, always.

    4. It was absolute stupidity to shut it down over that in the first place. Feckless and idiotic.

      1. Disagree. Everyone is blaming the Republicans and when health care costs skyrocket in January for those on the ACA, you can be sure that the visibility that this was a Republican decision will be there too. I sure hope that some red voters see that this administration does not care at all for the common person. Your rent is going up, your food costs are going up, your health insurance is going up, FEMA will not be there if there is a disaster, your colleges are being dismantled, there are no laborers to pick your food etc etc. One wonders how the country can be great if all its citizens are struggling but I guess eventually there will be a revolt. Hopefully the country will not be in shambles by then.

        1. Republicans are 100% blaming the Democrats. Heck, a lot of Democrats are blaming the Democrats. And what was it all for? (And why were ACA tax subsidies the priority issue over EVERYTHING ELSE?)

          1. The recent elections show the overwhelming majority of voters are blaming the Republicans. And anyone with half a brain knows that the party who controls Congress and the Presidency and can’t negotiate a deal is to blame.

          2. The recent elections happened before the Dems backed down and sent the message that it was all for nothing!

          3. 12:03, exactly, so less political fallout to back down now. Honestly, it’s being pragmatic over idealistic, and that’s something the Dems have struggled with in the past.

          4. I don’t think people are going to forgive and forget. Democrats haven’t been effective opposition in years which is why we’re in this mess to begin with.

        2. Something like 85% of people aren’t on the ACA and people don’t vote on healthcare. Instead, you have people losing health benefits and messed up travel. Not a winning move.

          1. I don’t think people don’t vote on healthcare is a rule (Medicare is healthcare?), but I agree that tweaks to the ACA aren’t inspiring.

          2. The ACA is why your employer has to keep your kids on until 26 and you don’t get dinged for preexisting conditions. It’s absolutely affecting people on employer sponsored health care.

          3. What Anon at 12:330 said.

            Despite the demonization of the ACA, I remember the 2012 election season and people definitely had healthcare accessibility on their minds. There were lots of footage of people confronting their congressional reps about losing health insurance because someone in their family had cancer, about not being able to afford insurance, etc. Affordable and decent health insurance is definitely an “economy” issue, and there’s been lots of yelping about how Democrats should focus on the economy, so it doesn’t seem out of line for them to emphasize affordable insurance.

      2. Look, unlike most of this board, I personally need the subsidies. I don’t know what I’m going to do, I was already on the cheapest skimpiest plan and what’s on the marketplace right now is ridiculous.

        But of all the insane badness coming out of this administration, it seems weird to say your absolute line in the sand is not extending something that was passed as an emergency temporary measure during covid. I’m worried that if we go down that route, we’ll undermine our ability to respond to actual emergencies, because everyone knows if they agree to a temporary measure, it’ll become permanent.

        1. Yeah I wish a lot of those measures had been made permanent since they did a lot of good and were clearly worth it. But I think the process to make them permanent shouldn’t look like this. I also think that there are bigger problems with the marketplace than this and don’t understand the lack of political will to fix the ACA more fundamentally. I hope you are able to figure something out.

          1. Is she’s on this board, presumably not working somewhere where health insurance is provided as a benefit is a choice, no? That’s not the same as “needing” a subsidy.

          2. 12:25 pm, you sound a bit sheltered. It really depends what she needs her insurance to cover.

          3. Apparently, I have never heard of anyone getting exchange coverage for better benefits.

          4. Anon@12:25 – not that it’s particularly your business, but yes, I am applying to jobs with better healthcare coverage. You may not have noticed, but the hiring market is not great right now.

          5. My cynical side says that focusing on affordable health insurance is palatable to the media (perhaps even more so after the United Healthcare issue). If Democrats campaigned on a living wage they’d be called commies. If they campaigned on all the laws the Trump administration is breaking, it would get both-sided to death or the media was cover it as arcane procedural issues instead of death blows to a nonpartisan civil service and functional democracy.

    5. Also, it’s not too late! Congress could pass them in December and people could choose new plans with lower premiums in Jan for Feb (or even after that if CMS creates a new special enrollment period). CMS has said that they will work with states and plans to implement the extension if Congress provides it. Will it be messy? Absolutely! Is it possible? Also absolutely – IF people put pressure on Congress to do it in December. We can’t give up now – for the 20+ million Americans who get subsidies today and can’t afford truly bananas premiums next year. Call your Members of Congress!!!!

  6. How are people in winter climates dressing these days? I always feel like I pretty much master current trends and things I like in the summer, but come winter (it’s cold where I live), I really miss the days of skinny jeans tucked into equestrian boots. My ankles are cold, wide pants are such a hassle in bad weather, nothing looks nice and tailored to me. Any suggestions or good sources of inspiration? I’m 35, a size 8-10, business casual company, my personal style is pretty classic, and I also don’t really know what to where on weekends.

    1. Your location may vary, but in the cold Midwest, I still see a lot of skinny and slim or straight jeans or leggings in winter for this reason. I tend to wear bootcuts with some kind of boot so I can wear warm socks and have my ankles covered. I cannot deal with cropped anything once the temperatures are below 50.

    2. Wide pants work well with long underwear, as long as they are not too cropped. I wear leather ankle boots or snow boots all winter, depending on how cold/wet it is, and mostly straight cut pants that are long enough to at least meet, if not cover, the top of my ankle boots. When it is below freezing, I add long underwear. I’m in NYC.

      1. Am I the only one who feels like long pants get wet in the rain/slush/snow and then get gross if they are long enough? My other issue is that I feel like they only look good with heels or when they’re cropped. And I don’t wear heels when it’s possibly slippery outside.

        1. I hem all my wide-legged pants to be ground-skimming in ballet flats so that when worn with shoes that have a bulkier sole, they are off the ground by a little, but not so much they look like they’re ‘too short’. Living through the 90s with the backs of flared jeans dragging on the ground and having the trail of rainy muck creep up the back of your pants was enough!

          1. Even that hemline doesn’t work in rain. I’m in northern California so my winter solution is more rain driven and less needing to build warm layers but I do a lot of cropped pants with boots (and socks – knee highs generally) or dresses with tights and flat boots. Warm coat and scarf and I’m good for this climate. If I lived somewhere snowy, I’d probably keep rocking skinny jeans with boots.

    3. I know they’re not for everyone, but I love a good cropped wide-leg pant with sleek boots that are tall enough that the pants cover the tops. I’m wearing that today with a cowl-neck shell and a longer, flowy open cardigan (the old Graham kimono sweater from MMLF) and – the key for cold weather – knee-high socks underneath.

      4. +1
        This is the way to go as long as you can still wear your boots inside at the office.

        When it gets cold enough that I need the real, lined, big winter boots, woolly socks and the whole winter gear set-up, wide-legged trousers will always look bad outside, and unless willing to tuck into my ankles, I will look like the lego-man. Slimmer cuts are so much more practical for this season.

    4. I wore a slight bootcut jean yesterday with chelsea boots and wool socks. That might solve some of the issues you have with wide leg pants.

    5. Temperature is easier to manage. I wear thick high socks so my shins stay warm. Slush is the bigger problem. I buy mostly waterproof “fashion” booties that hit mid calf and cuff my pant legs while outside. It’s not pretty while I’m commuting but I just roll them back down once I get indoors. On bitter cold days I say screw it and wear skinny jeans with riding boots. I do my best to keep it current (black jeans with black boots and an on-trend top).

    6. Skinny jeans and equestrian boots are very much a thing where I live. Wear what works for your life. People who call practical clothes “dated” are absurd.

  7. I need new yoga pants, or the rebranded ‘flared legging.’ I’d like them to have a super high rise, be mostly cotton, thicker fabric and have narrower legs (I have a large belly but thinner thighs). Do you have any recommendations?

    1. Pact has a bootcut legging that might work. I do not have it but see a lot of ads for it.

    2. Victoria’s Secret still has cotton foldover yoga pants. Sometimes I wear them with the waist unfolded.

    4. beyond yoga has a big sale going on right now. I feel like they are thin through the legs. I don’t remember the fabric content, but everything I’ve tried from BY is extremely soft.

      1. +1 I loooove beyond yoga. So so comfy, they’re the first leggings I ever actually liked. They never sag, they’re super soft, and super durable. I’ve had the same pair as my body has changed from size 6 to 8 to 2 and they’ve somehow fit the whole time and never got stretched out.

    5. I really like Duluth’s Noga pants. Not strictly yoga pants, but substantial, and a pretty nigh rise and stretchy. And useful pockets. The Naturale line is 90% cotton. They’re not the most trendy pants, but very functional, and I wear mine several times a week.

  8. where in general do you like to look for party clothes? doing some general shopping today

    2. The over the top boho brands have fun pieces: Johnny Was, LSF, etc. Lots of fun velvet pieces this year.

    3. What type of party clothes do you mean? Going out clothes? Nice family party clothes? Cocktail dresses?

    5. Honestly TJMaxx and Nordstrom Rack. I found a Dress the Population jumpsuit for $50 that I recently wore to a wedding.

  9. I am hoping for a job offer this week and I have zero chill while waiting. I’m obsessively checking my email every 6 minutes. Any recommendations for distractions?

    1. Try to remember that even if you don’t get this job, you will get over it, and other doors will open for you if you keep at it.

      Sometimes I put my phone out of reach so I stop checking so much. Do something physical to release stress, like going to the gym.

    2. When you need to get out of your head, get into your body — exercise, go outside, etc.

  10. We’re hosting Thanksgiving this year. What time does your meal start? For us (near Detroit) we’re anchored around the Lions game, which starts at noon — people arrive around halftime for snacks and apps, then we start the meal after the game ends. I’m curious what others do!

    1. Omg I’m so glad my family doesn’t care about football to the point where a holiday is “anchored” around the game. More power to you if you guys love that scene but so not mine!

      1. I’m in a city where everyone is a fan and it’s such a fun part of our culture. We haven’t played on Thanksgiving in years, but we’ve planned Christmas and NYE around watching our team.

        But like I said – everyone is into it. Every single family and friend who attends our holidays wants to watch. Heck, my 75 year old, very prim and proper aunt is the most rabid fan in our family!

      2. Oh for goodness sakes. There was no need for this comment – you do you and they do them.

        2. Right? I love how into our NFL team my area (and family) is – it’s such a great way to build community and feel connected as a city. If you’re wearing green you’ll certainly get a “Go Birds!” as a greeting from a fellow fan.

          To me that camaraderie is well worth planning holiday meals around games :)

        3. I had the same reaction to a holiday focused around a game. This comment said essentially you do you, but it’s fascinating and curious to me to host a party besides the super bowl that’s anchored around football.

      3. There was so much tension in my extended family last year at Thanksgiving that the Lions’ game provided a great stress relief for us all. We could scream at the refs instead of at each other and my mom was able to feel like her family was all together for the holiday.

        As a born and raised Lions’ fan though, it is fun that our meals are planned around the game. My mom plans so her meal is ready at halftime. My mother-in-law plans hers for after the game.

      1. I’m firmly pro Thanksgiving dinner instead of lunch.

        I feel like it’s a PITA to eat that early – what time does the turkey have to go in the oven?

        We go out the night before with all of the family friends and cousins (this is a multigenerational gathering) – ain’t no way anyone’s getting up early to cook!

        Then my dad and brother and cousins play in a Turkey Bowl in the morning, I do a turkey trot with friends, and my mom and her friends meet up for a walk.

        Yes – my mid 60s parents are still going out Thanksgiving Eve and getting together to exercise the next morning!

        1. You say that bit at the end about mid-60s parents like it’s surprising. It’s really not.

          2. Oh it’s very not surprising for anyone in their 60s or 70s that I know!

            Sometimes people get allergic to fun though as they age – I was just commenting that the “going to bars on Thanksgiving eve” and the “thanksgiving morning football game” are not only for the 20s and 30s in my crowd. Like my parents would kill me if I suggested a noon Thanksgiving meal because it would ruin both their Wednesday night social plans and their Thursday sports plans.

          3. It sounds like her dad in his 60s still plays in a Turkey Bowl. Which is awesome, but definitely not common!

          5. A lot of people on this board (and in life) become very … not fun as they age and couldn’t imagine going out to bars on Thanksgiving Eve or playing football in their 60s

          6. Partially, but also there is huge ageism in the comment. I am from a totally blue collar background, and the two generations above me that I have known were very active and engaged well into their 80s. Mid-60s is really not that old.

          7. Unless going out the night before involves blackout-levels of partying, 60 year olds going for walks in the morning is not exactly a remarkable anomaly.

          8. Anon at 10:04 here – it’s the biggest party night of the year for my parents since all of our friends are together (and I’ve never seen a crew that’s so big with such a tight bond). It’s probably 5 or so hours of decently heavy drinking (we’re all Irish Catholic… it can get a little rowdy in a very fun way).

            But, then my dad and all of his friends get up the next day and play rough touch/sometimes tackle football. They’ve been playing this game for over 45 years.

            I was just out with my parents and family friends last weekend and they can all drink me under the table.

            My comment about ‘yes even people in their 60s doing this’ was more because I know some associate “Thanksgiving Eve” with the college crowd (come home from college and go out with your high school friends) and also that my dad (and 20 other men in their 60s) is getting up to play football. I think a lot of people also assume the Turkey Bowl games are for the “kids” too – my brother and cousins and friends play in a separate one but the big “plan your day around this” one is the Dad’s one.

          9. Seriously, again and again with the ageism here. News flash – 60 is still quite young. Many 60 year olds have teenagers.

          10. 60 is for sure young to go out and drink and go on walks – its not that young to play football!

        2. Good for you and your family? For me, that would feel like way too much to cram into Thanksgiving morning.

          We use a roaster for our turkey. It takes around 3.5-4 hours.

          1. It’s fun for us because these friends are family to us – wouldn’t feel like a holiday without seeing them!

        3. Fave turkey in our family is sloooow roasted starting late the night before, then kept warm in the AM while everything else is made. So tender it falls off the bone. I was horrified to learn my spouse’s family does dinner and he was delighted to learn mine does a midday meal. We don’t attend his family’s Thanksgiving at this point and instead go for Easter (on which date eating before dark is apparently acceptable).

        4. Uhhmmm…..thanks a lot for the comment on your parents. I am 60 with teenagers and I hope no one ever says something like that about me! Sheesh!

          1. Sheesh thats not what I meant by that comment – more that my dad and his friends still play a competitive football game every Thanksgiving (after a night of drinking the 20 and 30 something’s under the table).

            These men legitimately have 10 beers the night before and then play rough touch / sometimes tackle football at 9am. Half these men played D1 and they’re playing just aA hard as they did back in the day.

            My brother is 28 and I’m 30 and we’re hurting more after drinking/our sports than our dad!

            My mom and I play on the same competitive club field hockey team. I know the mid 60s crowd can still ball :)

      2. Thank goodness?

        Does no one in your family go out the night before? Or play in a turkey bowl or do a turkey trot in the morning?

      1. We’re even later, it’s dinner – cocktails at 5:30, dinner at 7. Ends whenever. I do not understand Thanksgiving lunch.

    4. Southern here and my family usually eats Thanksgiving around 2pm, which seems random but was also the time we ate “supper” after church on Sunday when we stayed at my grandmother’s house, so maybe that’s where it comes from?

      1. This is my ideal and was my norm (though in the Northeast not South) until I got married. Growing up any fancy Sunday “dinner” was just the large meal around 2-3 PM. Alas my husband and his family feel strongly opposed to this.

        1. Interesting to hear this was your norm in the Northeast. I’m also in the Northeast and to be honest I associated the Sunday “dinner” in the afternoon as a Southern thing. Here everyone I know is Catholic or mainline Protestant so church services are usually somewhere between 50 mins and an hour – everyone is done with church by like noon at the latest. I imagine the big Sunday “dinner” as more of a Baptist/Non denom thing where services last much longer (bringing you to 2 or 3 PM).

          1. I think the reason the term “Sunday dinner” might be associated with southern culture in the US is because historically the main meal of the day (which was often midday) was called dinner, and supper was the evening meal. So Sunday dinner and Sunday lunch could both mean a meal at the same time depending on culture.

      2. Southern and this is what we did too when my grandparents were still alive and we had a big family Thanksgiving. Now it’s just my parents and sibling and we go to a local hotel Thanksgiving brunch around noon (my parents live in a vacation town).

      3. I’m in the upper midwest and this is what we do. I don’t really know where it came from but we’ve stuck with it and I prefer it greatly to earlier (everything seems so rushed) or later (I don’t want to get ready/wait allllll day).

    5. We eat around 6pm. People come around 4:30.

      We have the games on in the background, but our team rarely plays on Thanksgiving…. We have scheduled Christmas dinner around an NFL game though!

      1. Pretty similar here- arrive around or after 5:00, eat dinner at 6:00. The host should get to relax a bit in the morning instead of setting their alarm for a frantic day. Even as a guest I always cook something the day of, and I hate being rushed on a holiday.

    6. We have always eaten around noon or 1pm. It’s what the aunt who hosted when I was young did, and we have continued the practice now that my family hosts. I generally like it, because although the morning is a little crazy getting everything done, the rest of the day is very chill. We clean up the meal and then sit around talking, watching football, playing games, and snacking on leftovers when we’re hungry. (I’m in Indianapolis.)

    7. We always eat at 3pm at my parents house. I’m not really sure why – I’m sure my mom has a reason. I like it.

    8. Early supper, like around 5:00 pm. I am the chief and nearly sole cook, and I am not getting up on a holiday while it’s still dark to put a turkey in the oven. Supper over lunch lets me not rush. Early evening means there’s time to restore order to the house after guests leave.

    9. Parents – 1pm
      In-laws – snowbirds who like to go out for TG dinner, so we spend the day at the pool or beach and then go out at 6 or so. It’s the BEST tbh.

        1. Yes- we’re still spending the day bonding having family time. After dinner we usually play some board games and have pie back at home (vs restaurant dessert). There’s just no drama over burned food, who is or isn’t helping enough, etc.

    10. Lifelong Lions territory resident. We sit down to eat by 11:30 and do dessert during halftime.

    11. My earlier comment got eaten.

      Also live in Lions territory. We eat at 11:30 and do dessert at halftime.

      1. We always did a mid afternoon, so people who have driven a couple hours to get there can get home before dark.

        1. Our gathering is either all local or involves distant peeps staying with locals, so the 11:30 time works well for us. Having the big meal earlier also lets us pick at the leftovers for dinner, so we get more time for low-key interaction with each other rather than getting shooed out of the kitchen all day long.

    12. I hate early dinner. I want thanksgiving dinner same time as regular dinner. 6 at the earliest for kids. I just don’t want a huge meal at 3 or 4. My stomach clock is completely thrown off by this. But I’m apparently an outlier in my extended family, so that only happens when I’m hosting. This year it’s my mom hosting so it’ll be on the early side. 3?

      1. Same! I can’t eat a feast at 3pm! Thank god both sides of my family are Thanksgiving dinner people and not lunch or mid afternoon.

    15. We do early dinner, around 4 or 5 pm. People arrive about an hour before serving, or earlier if they’re going to help cook. I like early dinner. It gives the cooks plenty of time, and the families with babies or young kids can come after nap time and leave in time for bedtime.

      And we definitely move holiday meals around for football if there’s overlap. Our team is so terrible right now, it’s not an issue this year.

    16. With the caveat that we do salmon and not a turkey (everyone likes salmon; only I like turkey): we have a late lunch, maybe 1 PM. The idea here is that we have the meal more or less at a regular time and then a continuous dessert experience. The dessert experience is also dinner. I am not making another separate meal.

    17. I’m in the south and we always have Thanksgiving lunch. We don’t have turkey so it really isn’t an issue. We also always did the midnight Black Friday sales so a nap in the afternoon was really nice.

    18. We are nearly 40 and still abiding by a modification on the divorce custody agreement my husband’s parents came up with when he was 5. Everyone lives in the same town. Early lunch with his mom’s side (1130am), early dinner (4pm) with his dads, then late dinner at with my family (730pm). Food gets progressively better as the day goes on so it’s an eating challenge to moderate early.

    19. We eat anywhere between 2 and 4pm, depending on when I get motivated to stick the turkey in the oven. But it’s usually just my small family so it’s flexible and everyone snacks all day too.

    20. When I was growing up, my mom used to serve Thanksgiving dinner early/mid afternoon — like around 2 p.m. There was always a mad rush to get everything ready in time. A few years ago I decided that was crazy, and now I serve at (early) dinner time, around 5:30. It’s so much more relaxing!!

    21. We live in Michigan. DH’s family eats around noon or 1 pm so everyone can watch the Lions. My immigrant family eats at 7 or 8 pm.

    23. Midwest, I host but it’s usually just my nuclear family and my parents. My mom and I usually start the turkey when the parade ends around noon so we can eat around 3:30-4.

  11. Has anyone ever concluded that their innate personality is the reason why they’re unhappy at work? On the pro side: I enjoy teamwork and really thrive in high-functioning teams. I am also good at getting everyone on the same page to get a project done. But: I am such an earnest person. Who I am is pretty much who you’re going to get; good thing I’m not prone to speaking out of turn. I don’t play political games well. I expect my work to speak for itself. I’m never going to be the loudest voice in the room, or the person with the most woo. I have high standards for excellence, but I don’t have that killer competitive instinct; in fact, that is a turnoff to me. I’m liked by the people who know me well and ignored by everyone else. I often feel like I have to put on a mask to succeed.

    What’s a person like me supposed to do once they hit their 40s and are burned TF out from trying to succeed without losing their minds or their souls?

    2. I feel like I’m rarely happy at work. At my last job, I had too much work. At my new job, I have too little. My friend was like… you complain about every situation! Which is true. I think you have to remember the ultimate goal is a to have an income and you aren’t going to “win” all the time or in every category, and no one else will either.

    3. I think for the people who play all the political games, they have their reward in full. It sounds like you wouldn’t find it rewarding enough.

    4. There are a lot of careers where you don’t need to “play the game” or “have that killer competitive instinct”. I think I’d be miserable in this setting too.

      I work in government and here my work does speak for itself. I have work friends and I’m chatty and friendly which I’m sure helps, but that’s my natural self. There are also very quiet, shy people who are well respected with great reputations because they do great work.

      2. I would love to hear more about this. What is the nature of your work? I would do much better in such an environment that focuses on quality rather than visibility and politics.

    5. Can I ask what you mean by “succeed”? It sounds to me that yiou’re very successful — doing great work, well liked by good people. It is about climbing a ladder or pursuing some visible ambition? If you feel pressured by that, perhaps you can reframe your thinking to consider what you do and how you do it to be very successful, which is how it comes across here.

      1. That is a fair point. I feel like I’m trying to figure out what is going to keep fueling me for the next 10-15 years. There’s no place for me to advance into, nor do I even want that. I will own that I’m having a mid-career crisis and overall just feeling kind of invisible and overlooked.

        1. But it sounds like you don’t need to advance. You have made it. Now is the time to lean back, and make sure you are enjoying your LIFE.

          You need to change your mindset. You don’t need to play the game. Just decide what is really important to you for the next stage of life, and do that.

        2. Ah, I see. It sounds like you’re doing great work, with an ethic intact. That’s success. You can find fuel in creating different projects , or you can move your motivations outside of work to other things.

          Feeling overlooked, though, seems different. Is it that your hard work isn’t acknowledged? Or that you’d like more/different compensation for what you are doing?

          1. My hard work isn’t acknowledged, and it is sometimes hard to take. And I realize that my lack of bravado may be part of the reason, but it stings.

    6. This doesn’t really address your situation, but in response to the question whether you think personality can doom someone to be unhappy at work, I certainly feel that way. Based on what I’ve seen, people either need to be okay spending the majority of their life doing something they’re not passionate about or expect that they’re going to let that one thing they’re passionate about devour their life. I don’t like either of those options, and thus I suffer. If I care about my job I’m not going to have good work/life boundaries and I’ll get sad about neglecting other aspects of my l life. If I don’t care about my job I resent how much time I have to spend on it. Perhaps there’s a unicorn job where it actually can be done completely satisfactorily in 35 hours a week and it pays well enough to live off of and it provides some sort of meaning and fun problem solving, but I’m not aware of any of those.

      2. I have a job like this and many of my loved ones do too. We’re in a MCOL.

        I have a government job in a field I love and care about. I do not ever work outside of M-F 9-5. I make 100k. The work is meaningful and enjoyable.

        My sister is a teacher. Work life balance definitely exists, but looks different. She does maybe 3-4 hours a week of work outside of school hours (7:30-3:30), but she gets like 14 weeks off a year. She makes like 80k a year.

        Another friend is a NP in a specialty unit. She works 4x10s (M, W, Th, F) in an outpatient setting. Not sure what she makes, but its more than me.

        Another friend is an environmental engineer. LOVES her job. Works maybe 40-45 hours a week. Makes more than me, but I don’t know how much more.

        A LOT of people seem to think it’s either slaving away in a corporate job you hate or chasing your passion but making no money or having horrible work/life balance. I’m here to tell you that’s not the case!! You have agency to choose something you like, that supports you, and doesn’t require all of your time and energy!!!

        1. I love the enthusiasm, but this comes back to “some people have families they’re supporting and can’t actually quit their jobs without serious consequences, even if they can theoretically quit their jobs.” Some of us are working class and if you picked the wrong career when you invested in your education sucks to be you.

          1. Anon at 1:37 here.

            I grew up working class and this is where I really learned it. No one around me was making a ton of money, so choosing a job for solely money wasn’t something I picked up on. A job that helped others? Sure. A job that you liked enough? Sure. A job that didn’t beat up your body? Absolutely.

            Sure, most adults can’t easily pivot fields. But, you can look for similar jobs in different environments. Like you can leave the big 4 and do accounting in government or at a NGO or for a school. You’ll still be doing accounting as your day to day, but you won’t be in a soul sucking environment.

    7. I absolutely feel like this. I could have done well at the Big 4 I was working at, but it would have sucked my soul out. We sound really similar personality / temperament wise. I’m now a middle manager at a nonprofit and I love it. So I think it’s worth thinking about specifically what you like / don’t like about work and look for that in particular

  13. I needed some conservative outfits to wear to an upcoming work trip to augment my one solid black Theory suit (and after WFH for years). After being unimpressed with everything online, I went to the mall this past weekend, to my utter dismay. I was looking for a decent quality suit in navy or charcoal or a very dark burgundy. Nada. It was black or loud patterns. Then I was looking for some nice new blouses to go under the suit and all I could find were satiny/shiny holiday shirts, bedazzled tops, cheap-looking polyester blends, sleeveless or weird necklines, or crazy patterns. I roped in a Nordstrom salesperson to help and she admitted that I was the third woman that day looking for a blazer or suit and unfortunately they didn’t have much. Ann Taylor only had suits in holiday patterns or in sizes 00-2 and they were sold out in my size (10P) in everything online.

    I know we’ve all been lamenting the state of women’s shopping for a while, but I think it’s pretty bad when you can’t get the equivalent of an interview-appropriate outfit at Nordstrom, Ann Taylor or Banana Republic. I guess I’ll order some plain silk blouses off Quince and make do with my one black suit and some blazers, unless anyone has other suggestions of places to check? I’d love some pretty silk blouses with tasteful patterns to jazz up my existing options, but for some reason that didn’t seem to be an option any longer.

    1. Banana Republic Factory (just Factory, not BR) online has been carrying my wardrobe lately. Their sculpted stretch line checks my boxes for suiting needs, and the sewing block they use reliably fits my body.

      1. I love their clothes, but they don’t love me back – whoever is the fit model for their pants is much more straight up and down than I am.

        1. That’s really odd, because I am the opposite of straight up and down and they are one of the few retailers who work for me, at least when it comes to trousers.

    2. Actual silk is above the price point of Ann Taylor, Banana Republic, and all but the designer floor of Nordstrom. Brooks Brothers still carries both silk blouses and suits in stores, but not in a petite. They do alterations, though. Otherwise look at Hobbs, Theory, or Lafayette148 but expect to pay $200 or more for a classic blouse.

    3. Check J Crew, Talbots, and Brooks Brothers online for suiting. And you can definitely find printed silk blouses, at least online – check Boden, Vince, Rails, L’Agence…

    4. What’s your budget? I wear a lot of silk blouses. I usually get them on sale from L’Agence, Veronica Beard or Club Monaco.

      For suits, I think sadly you just have to order online but there are options. In stores, I mostly have luck with blazers that I can pair with my black pants and basic black short sleeve sweater tops/tees (weather depending).

      Right now, I’m debating this Italian flannel wool for winter from Talbots: https://www.talbots.com/luxe-italian-flannel-blazer/P253079412.html?cgid=apparel-suiting&dwvar_P253079412_color=DARK%20GREEN&dwvar_P253079412_sizeType=MS
      Will prob get the next time they do 40% off sale. I like the color which is different but still feels very traditional. I have another suits from them in this fabric and it’s very cozy and warm for winter.

    5. I never go to a mall for professional attire. There are some great suggestions in this thread. I also like Elie Tahari for good quality silk. They aren’t as preppy as a lot of the other brands.

    6. I agree with this completely. It’s weirdly hard to find basic appropriate work clothes. I went to Ann Taylor etc but I’m at a conference right now and my clothes for the week are from Marshall’s

  14. The comments about Thanksgiving being planned around the Lions games got me thinking – for those who aren’t into sports or live in areas where fan bases are split or people are generally less into sports – what’s the big common denominator?

    I live in Philly, so obviously it’s a huge sports city. You can drum up a conversation with just about anyone just about anywhere about sports. People I’d never, ever expect to be into sports are still follow our teams to an extent.

    I love the feeling of community when I’m out taking a walk on Sunday morning and everyone is donning their green. Or when every bar in the city was playing Dancing on my Own during the Phils play off runs in past seasons. Go Birds is an acceptable greeting, farewell, or conversation starter.

    I have lots of other interests and hobbies, but nothing is as universally loved as sports.

    1. This is so weird to me. I live in San Francisco and we have sports but nothing like you describe. Even if the local team is in the championships, there’s tons of people not engaging. There’s so much to do here that sports is the last on the list for me and most people I know. We don’t need or want a community anchor like that I guess?

      1. Plenty of huge sports cities also have lots to do. I can go for a nice hike or and still catch the game. I can also watch a 1PM game and then go to a play or concert after.

        I’d imagine that part of this is because SF is a city with many transplants, while other big sports cities are more local? However, even when I lived in DC (transplant heavy!) one of my favorite things on Sunday morning was going grocery shopping and seeing everyone repping their hometown team.

        1. Well there’s more to do year round here – we don’t have a winter season where we’re stuck in the house or finding something indoors to do. I know there’s plenty to do elsewhere but the fact that you can do all kinds of outdoor activities year round here is a distinguishing factor from other cities.

          1. I’m also in SF and my experience is very different than yours. I’m not a sports fan but I’ve been to a Niners game and a Valkyries game so far this season. I still remember the parade when the Giants won the World Series in 2010. I think lots of people in SF are engaging in the way OP describes even if your circle is off winter hiking or whatever.

      2. Why would you insinuate that other cities don’t have much else to do? These are major American cities were talking about – theres plenty to do besides sports, it’s just that other things aren’t mutually exclusive with being a sports fan.

      3. The anchor in San Francisco is everyone is obsessed with work. I have never experienced a town so obsessed with job titles, VC funding, unicorns, etc.

        2. My experience is that in DC and SF, work is the anchor. But in SF, it gets weird when you get older because all of a sudden all your friends are, like, retired or consulting at 45.

          In NYC, talking about NYC is the anchor. I think it partly stems from the fact that there is a huge media industry focused on New York. No other local politics get covered like New York local politics.

    2. I don’t know, I just don’t expect to have something in common with everyone I run into? I live in NYC; the population is pretty heterogeneous. We try to ignore random strangers to create a feeling of privacy when there is no personal space, but can often bond over shared inconveniences, such as the subway being late, people acting weird, crowds, costs, weather, etc. I’m into the arts, and there are a lot of people who feel similarly here, but many who don’t too. What we have in common is being New Yorkers.

    4. At the very least, pretending to be interested in sports seems like a social nicety. Like commenting on the weather (which is the more common go-to in my upper Midwest area). We do have a significant number of die hard sports fans here, but there are strong rivalries and with strangers you never know which side they support so it’s not guaranteed to be a banal conversation starter.

      I may not have actually been outside since sunrise and have no idea if it is clear, blizzarding, muggy, etc., but a “great weekend, wasn’t it?” comment is a pretty safe way to chat with strangers.

      1. Yeah, I’ve lived in small town New England, a large Midwestern city, and a small city on the West Coast (where it’s almost always beautiful, except when there are wildfires), and in all of these, weather is the unifying topic of conversation.

    5. Are you really asking what we could possibly do in our cities if we are not a “huge sports city”?? It’s crazy how sometimes people on this board find it impossible to imagine anything other than their own life and experiences.

      1. I think she’s asking less about what people do, and more about what brings the community together in a unifying way.

        For the OP, I married into a Philadelphia sports family (although we don’t live in Philly) and it’s unlike anything I’ve experienced elsewhere in the US. I actually love it, because I think that unifying sense of a shared community interest is rare these days–the city where we live now certainly doesn’t have it.

      2. Obviously thats not what I was asking. The vast majority of my interests, hobbies, and topics of conversation aren’t related to sports.

        I honestly only follow sports just enough to know what’s going on. But, it’s magical to see how it unites the city.

        I spend like ~3 hours a week watching sports (1 football or baseball game a week) and many, many more hours reading and running and socializing and knitting and whatnot.

        1. I mean, it unites the sports fans in the city. Growing up in a city with that kind of culture, I never felt like I belonged and could not get out fast enough!

          1. Similar view here. I take issue with the amount of public money my city spends on stadium subsidies and tax breaks for the teams while claiming there are no funds for things like repairs to crumbling public infrastructure. I also find it disgusting how many of the celebrated pro athletes have established DV histories, etc., but are still deified and held up as role models. That ish I cannot get behind.

          2. OP here and I actually wrote into a sports blog complaining about how they glorified Tyreek Hill given his DV allegations. Yes he’s fast, but he’s a bad person. I also wrote to the Phillies when Odubel Herrera was charged with DV.

          3. I can understand that it’s engaging and spirited, and maybe there is literally nothing that women can do that would get them put on the same kind of pedestal as male athletes? But even on that analysis, it would make more sense to me if the players were locals and not just hired.

    6. Things that everyone actually has in common for good or for worse (traffic/transit, weather/the physical environment of the city). Sports is never one of these things.

    7. Yes, it’s fun to trash your city whether you win or lose. Nothing builds community like having to grease the poles.

      1. I hate sports but honestly being in a throng of Eagles fan is super fun. Grease those poles!

    8. I’m not a baseball person, but it’s been so fun go hop on the bandwagon and get into the team the past few years!

    9. I’m in a Philly suburb and Philly is unique and wonderful in that way. While I don’t generally care about sports, I am a bandwagon Eagles fan because the sense of community is fantastic.

      1. Yeah people really love Philly and I think the strong culture is a huge reason why!

    10. I guess I just don’t get this either. Maybe it stems from the fact that I’m not a competitive person – I don’t care at all about any type of “sports ball.” Or maybe it’s based on the fact that I live in Charlotte – our identity just isn’t wrapped up in that. On that note, we don’t have much of an identity at all. But I enjoy that… I’ve never been one to have “city pride,” if that makes sense. I’m not wearing a “Charlotte rules” chip on my shoulder. I live my life, I’m nice to strangers (who are often nice back to me here), and that’s about it. Shrug.

    11. I think it’s just fun to go all in on something. I’m a bandwagon fan at best, but it’s so fun!

      Whether it was dressing up for a midnight premiere of Harry Potter or my city’s team or anything else I just love a fun excuse to get excited about something.

    12. i used to live in Philly and while I rarely watched sports, I definitely was aware of a Philly team was in the playoffs or doing well. I now live in Houston and with baseball especially it is unifying, though I could care less. That and natural disasters

    13. I lived in Boston for grad school. I always planned my grocery trips and Costco trips for during Pats games because the store would be empty. I enjoyed the hilarity of Gronk, but did not give a fig if they won.

    14. In Southern California it is traffic and (the minute we get a drop of rain) the weather. The opening salvo for party conversations between strangers is generally how long it took to get to the event and what route you took.

      But I was recently in Philadelphia for a conference and found myself sitting in a local bar on a Saturday watching college football and was amused and astonished by “Go Birds” being used by everyone as hello, goodbye and periodically just in the middle of conversations about Sunday plans. There are definitely places where sports are more omnipresent than others and they do tend to be places with stronger civic identity.

    15. I’m from Chicago but I never really experienced true sports-unity until I went to a big college ball town. It’s definitely fun to be watching a game on tv and then open your window and hear everybody cheering outside as well. And it’s not like it takes skill or expertise to be a fan, so it’s pretty inclusive. The only other time I’ve felt a similar overwhelming neighborhood feeling was when they called the 2008 election.

      1. +1 Midwest college town and college sports are definitely the unifying thing. There is professional sports (well, NFL and NBA) in the nearby city but college sports are much bigger locally.

    17. I grew up somewhere that was sports obsessed, but in a very non-sporty family. We would grocery shop during games because it was so much easier. I left and live in NYC. I kind of get the appeal of a common connecting factor and briefly followed my hometown team out of nostalgia. But ultimately I’m so happy to be somewhere not dominated by sports culture. Honestly the sports focus is one reason I am hesitant about moving to Philly even though it would make a lot of sense otherwise!

  15. How many people do you actually know on ACA health care? And how many of those are willing to talk finances in a social setting? I don’t think it will have an impact.

    Last Friday’s segment on PBS Newshour said that Democrats picked the ACA subsidies because healthcare was the one issue on which the party polled the best. But that doesn’t mean it was a winning issue or had a stronger moral case than other issues right now. The shutdown negotiations don’t feel particularly well thought out and the way they were framed isn’t resonating from what I can see.

    1. They really need to quit it with the polls. Everyone hates a politician who just chases polls anyway. Can we get some leadership?

    2. I saw some analysis by Nate Silver (formerly of 538) that looked at google searches. Of a number of different issues, including ACA and the East Wing, the one that generated the most sustained interest (as judged by google searches) was SNAP benefits.

    3. My stepsister will be uninsured without the subsidies. She has a benign brain tumor that requires an MRI every six months. She’s screwed without ACA and she can’t afford the catastrophic increase in her premiums.

      So yes, this will absolutely affect her in a dire way.

    4. I fully agree with the sentiment in your second paragraph.

      The first, though. Over 22 million people use the ACA subsidies, and I doubt they will not be impacted if those subsidies expire. The knock on effects of 22 million people suddenly facing this hardship is not exactly going to be unremarkable to the rest of society.

      1. I think the ACA subsidies expiring will have significant negative effects, but SNAP is more salient both because nearly twice as many people (42 million) use it compared to ACA, and the time-factor is somewhat more urgent — people have ALREADY run out of snap money, whereas people are just starting to look at their renewal notices and worry about next year. The full effects won’t hit for a few months.

    5. If you mean someone who gets health insurance through the exchanges, I know several, although they think it doesn’t count because their insurance card doesn’t say ObamaCare. (I don’t know if they got the subsidies that expired.) I know a few who had Medicaid under the expanded coverage, but again they claimed otherwise because their cards didn’t say Medicaid. (Several claimed to be on Medicare.) I know many young adults on parents’ health insurance. I myself benefit from the abolishment of pre existing conditions.

    6. I know a bunch, because a fair number of people in LA are self-employed and/or are in the entertainment industry but don’t work enough to take advantage of the guild plans. It’s not perceived as shameful in my circles.

      Literally no one ever asked me to be an American political strategist, but doing good things around the edges of a massive problem like healthcare doesn’t inspire many people. It’s not all sunshine and rainbows with healthcare in the UK or Canada or most of Europe, but no one in any of those places is going bankrupt because of healthcare costs that they can’t even negotiate or know before the healthcare is administered. No one in those countries is getting charged $1500 to get a Barbie shoe taken out of their kids nose because they got sent to the emergency room after trying the urgent care.

      Why not go big and do something like Medicare for all?

    7. Me! I couldn’t have gone back to grad school without the ACA. It allowed me to quite my full time job and accept the otherwise generous fellowship. I received a $100/month subsidy, which has been more than recouped by the difference in taxes I’ve paid since graduating and obtaining a much higher paid position (though still low by the standards of this board). I tell anyone who is interested in hearing about it. The ACA (not so much the subsidies, though it was nice) changed the course of my life.

    8. Literally everyone under 65 that’s self employed. One of my friends is seeing her payments double and she can’t afford it. Another salon owner I know has to fly to Mexico for medical and dental work (and that’s with insurance) because it’s thousands of dollars cheaper.

  16. Can I complain for a minute that you can’t add parents to your work sponsored health insurance? If I had kids or a spouse, I could add them, but I can’t add my mother who is retired but not old enough yet for Medicare. So she has to get health insurance from the marketplace and they are quoting her over $800/month for next year. She currently pays over $400/month which is already outrageous, and it doesn’t even cover anything. The whole thing is such a scam. I know this is how most (if not all) work-sponsored health plans are, I just think it should be different.

    1. Well, $800 is amazing right now for someone close to Medicare age. In fact, Medicare can cost that much once you add together Part B + Part D + supplement.

      My marketplace plan is over $1600 per month – just for me. I’m in my 50’s. So she is lucky she can get that rate in her state.

      This is why very few people can afford early retirement. If she is not making enough money from her savings to cover this, she may need to go back to work just for insurance, or part-time to pay for her premiums.

      Or is she not working because she is disabled? Apply for disability, but that can take a long time and is often unsuccessful, and then it takes 2 years before you get early Medicare eligibility.

    2. Sure, complain. I hear you. But remember, before the Marketplace / ACA, your Mom would likely not be able to get insurance at all because of pre-existing conditions. Dark times.

      And before, your “kids” would not have had the luxury of having you covering them until they are 26 years old.

      You are also lucky that you and your partner can put your spouse on each others plans. Single people are envious.

      Our Health Care is an evolving system that has many flaws and inequities.

    3. Health insurance tied to your job is the biggest scam ever. Yes, I recognize everything is 1000x better than it was pre-ACA. But, it still sucks.

      As a single person who works in a government-affiliated industry (so no job security these days), if I lose my job I’m SOL because of $$$ marketplace insurance. Meanwhile, if my married coworker loses her job she can just switch to her husband’s insurance as it’s a qualifying life event. The singles tax is everywhere, but it’s especially bad here.

    4. Interestingly enough, if you are a federal employee, you can actually get health insurance for yourself plus one, which is different from insuring a family member or a kid. The population of federal employees is older and sicker than the average American, so it’s really darn stupid that other insurance doesn’t cover that situation. I wish everyone could just buy into the federal employee health plans, they aren’t perfect but are better than a lot of other plans.

      1. Fed here. Not quire – self + 1 means that the +1 must be a spouse or a kid under 26 or an older disabled child. You can’t even do a domestic partner as a +1 (which some other employers allow).

        Basically it lets a single parent of one child have their kid on their health insurance without paying the family plan. I most often see it for people with a spouse though (as this is our self + spouse option).

        1. I’m in private sector and we have a variation of this, it’s Employee + child or Employee + children. Kids are a lot cheaper to insure than spouses, so I cover the kid and DH covers himself on his own plan.

    5. Your mother is probably much more expensive to insure than a spouse and kids, due to age. I honestly think it’s a bit much that kids up to age 26 get to be on a parent’s insurance (those are adults!) and I don’t think it’s at all odd that an employer would cover dependents in your immediate family but not another random relative.

      I hear you that you are frustrated on your mother’s behalf, and I am no fan of the current system, but I can’t see any possible argument for why employers should cover everyone related to their employee.

      1. I’d be fine with lowering the age below 26 if kids weren’t in such bad financial places when they graduated. I was paying $330/mo on my reasonable (approx $30k federal) student loans. Taking out $200/mo from my paychecks for health insurance would have been tough for me to afford back then.

      2. Find me an insurance plan that a college kid can afford and I’ll agree with you.

        1. I agree with covering undergrad students. But that typically caps at age 22/23. Then get your own job.

      3. Yeah, I benefited from the age-26 rule, and I’m grateful for it, but it seemed like a bit of a giveaway mostly to upper-middle class families. I know lots of young people who’s parents don’t have jobs who provide good health insurance like that, or who have tough family relationships. The “we think it’s reasonable you can’t afford insurance until you’re several years into a career” setup is the underlying problem

        2. Yes. And the people who are really sick in their 20s are not always coming from families that have good health insurance (a lot of the things that lead to expensive needs at young ages are genetic, so their parents may not be doing so hot, especially if they had limited healthcare access themselves!).

        3. It allowed us to insure our son through my husband’s job while he went to grad school. Young adults are not able to fully support themselves in this economy. Are people really questioning the value of the 26 year old rule?

      4. since it used to be that you could be on yoru parent’s plan if you were a student, this just reduced the administrative burden of having to show who is/isn’t a student etc. especially as people weave in and out of school

        1. That wasn’t common at all. Many students had no insurance or insurance through their University.

    6. Presumably your mother is choosing not to work or she is unable to work. If she’s unable to work, she can apply for disability and get healthcare that way. If she’s choosing not to work, she can decide if these premiums are too much and she can choose to re-enter the workforce.

      Idk, I don’t know anyone who was able to choose to retire before 65 so I don’t have a ton of sympathy for someone who made that choice. Almost everyone I know is planning to work til 65 for health insurance alone.

      1. yup, same. my mom was literally dying and kept working so she and my dad could continue getting the health insurance at the employee rate, even once she stopped working. some employers do have that as a retiree benefit if you’ve been there for X number of years. she had to be at her company for 15 years and was very close when her benign brain tumors kept growing and first forced her to use a cane (and continued commuting downtow) and then put her in a wheelchair. her boss was a saint and kind of covered for her so she could make it those last six months as i dont know how much work she was actually doing, but as she continued to lose functionality, she showed up on zoom every day

      2. Yes, you are certainly right since entering the workforce as an older American is known to be a piece of cake. /s. We literallyy just had a discussion here where hiring managers were complaining about “out of touch” applicants (often code for older). Give me a break.

        1. It doesn’t have to be a professional job. You can get bennies in a lot of restaurant or coffee shop jobs now.

          My uncle loaded trucks for UPS for health insurance for years. My friend is an admin (which is well below her professional capacity) for the same reason.

          1. Not true— a lot of service jobs schedule hours in a way to avoid giving health insurance. In actual practice it’s very difficult. And UPS has been laying off

        2. Older Americans have a difficult situation when they are laid off. But second careers, lower paying, is common at that point to maintain health insurance. Consulting/self-employed, teaching, local government, service industry etc… It is what it is.

          Or do you think that everyone should be able to buy into a Universal Health Insurance plan at any age, for any reason? I am not opposed to that. But we are having a hard time with that now. Shoot – even our government can’t settle on one health insurance plan. Government employee plans, Medicare, Medicaid, VA (WHY are there completely different plans?!?!?) and then every different state government plan +/- state retiree plans.

          1. Yes—I think we should have universal health insurance. Having to re-enter the workforce later in life just to not get crippled by healthcare costs is a ridiculous way you have your citizens live.

          2. Younger than 65 doesn’t really seem like “reentering the workforce later in life” to me though.

            I want “Medicare for all who want it”, but I also don’t think it’s a crazy expectation that most able bodied people work til they’re 65.

          3. But if their expenses are otherwise low, should they have to just to have basic health coverage that is currently 800+ a month? That’s nuts. It’s a scam to keep us working when we could actually be enjoying our lives.

          4. Well, I guess you are saying that you would like society to help your mother retire early so she can enjoy her retirement at an earlier age than most. Can’t you see why that doesn’t garnish a lot of sympathy? Wouldn’t all Americans like to have subsidized health insurance so they can retire early?

    7. A lot of them are extremely evangelical Christian (deal breaker for me), but health shares are worth looking into if you’re healthy and need “in case of car accident” coverage. I’ve got a sister that is a part of one and it’s much cheaper than health insurance (because they have so many limits on who can join and what is covered, so really not a great system)

    8. Sympathy. It makes me sad romantic partners and children are the only people who can count as a significant other or dependent.

      1. Why?? Nothing else makes sense. The point of covering a child is because they aren’t old enough to work and the spouse (theoretically) is so they have the freedom to stop working and take care of the kids. It’s not just a random collection of people.

          1. Anon at 2:53: people under the age of 25 cannot rent cars. We know that their brain is not fully developed and most are not finished with school and are unable to get good jobs until their mid 20s. The actual science tells us that adolesence extends until age 25.

        2. Okay, but what if Grandma takes care of the kids so Mom and Dad can keep working? Or grandpa or a sibling? This setup forces the one parent working + one to stay at home with the kids system, and with the cost of living crisis that doesn’t work anymore. It’s clearly a broken system.

          2. The average age a woman has her first child in the US is 27.5. 27.5 years ago, it was 24.1. Add those together and you get 51.6… nowhere near Medicare eligible.

      2. I’m single and childless and I often hate the focus on romantic partners and children being “more meaningful” than other friend and relative relationships.

        That being said – I don’t see your point. Like why would I even want to put my BFF or my cousin on my health plan? Sharing a gym membership? Sure. A +1 to a wedding or a work party? Yes please. My emergency contact? Yes. But its too complicated to want to try to do this for health insurance.

    9. If your mother is your financial dependent, you likely can add her. If she’s just your mom who lives somewhere else and has her own income, you can see why adding a higher risk person to an insurance pool of a company of young and healthy people is not a great thing _for the company_ which is the entity that gets to decide the contours of who gets insured under their plan. I’m not defending _how_ this is set up, but I am explaining the _why_ of this to you.

      1. I work in employee benefits, and I have never seen this. We cover spouses (not domestic partners or common-law spouses), and children (yours, your spouse’s, foster kids, and kids placed for adoption). We would never cover anyone outside of those categories, not even if you claim the person as a dependent on your tax return, nor if you are the legal guardian for your parent.

        My experience has all been on the east coast and in the . midwest, at mid- to large employers. But I know nothing about marketplace plans – maybe they allow this?

    11. $800/month for an old person is in no way outrageous. I guarantee she consumes more than $9600 in health resources a year.

      1. $800 that barely covers anything is outrageous. You’re just used to what’s going on in this country.

        1. Let her pay out of pocket for everything if it’s so outrageous, then. Less cost to the rest of us.

          2. If we could get an honest cash cost from our doctors, that would be preferred by lots of people.

    13. In my last role, as divisional CFO, HR reported to me for the whole small company. If mom and dad lived with the employee and were declared as dependents on the tax return I added them to insurance.

      Read the small print carefully. If she lives with you, is a dependent on your return (a qualified dependent for tax purposes was the term used) and doesn’t qualify for Medicare, you might find she qualifies. Depends on the terms of the plan. I quietly added them and kept it moving.

      I also was told to add an employees ex wife and her new husband plus his children. Never seen that before but absolutely pushed it through immediately and made sure they had, long term care, supplemental life insurance, dental and vision coverage too.

      I was told at business school I should act with intention to have real impact. I got immense satisfaction from making sure everyone got coverage.

      1. Love this, especially for the sandwich generation that is taking care of children and parents.

      1. No, it isn’t? Adults plan ahead. She shouldn’t have retired if she couldn’t afford to self fund her insurance and didn’t have a plan for how she’d get it.

  17. How much fun or joy would you say you have in your day to day life? Obviously, we’re adults not every minute is going to be fun – we have to commute and go to the dentist and clean the gutters on the mundane level and worry about eldercare or raising children and the state of the country and climate change on the big level. But, I often get the sense that so many people in my life have given up on fun? They’ll say they’re too old for XYZ or they don’t do ABC anymore. Or, if you talk about the day to day they’re shocked that I can make time for hobbies and socializing along family and work commitments.

    1. I make it a point to have fun every day. In fact, years ago my husband and I had “business” cards printed up that say “Professional Fun-Havers.”

    2. A lot! My friends and I love fun and are always coming up with a silly theme or excuse for a party. I also love my job, so that helps.

    3. I live near friends (like a few blocks away) and get to socialize nearly every day. My family is 30 mins away, and I get to see them regularly too. Most of the socialization is low key (happy hours or potluck dinners), but we also do bigger things often enough.

      I love my job. I work with fun people. I enjoy what I do in my day to day and the impact it has. Loving my 8-9 hours a day of a job helps immensely.

      I have several hobbies that I love, including playing on a club sport team. This is a great blend of a workout, camaraderie with my teammates, and the pure joy of getting to play a sport I love. Originally my hobbies were all active (this sport, skiing, trail running) or social, but I did work to develop hobbies I really enjoy that I can do solo at home. Now I hardly even watch TV because if i’m home I want to be doing one of these hobbies.

      I currently have a loved one in the hospital and a stressful job situation so its not all rainbows and ponies, but overall yes I have fun every day.

    4. I mean, two things can be true. I rarely go to bars or drink, but I always hated going to bars, so I’m glad that most people my age have stopped doing that. I still have plenty of fun and I think most of my days have joy in them, even though I’m also dealing with a lot of hard things.

      1. Yes, plenty of fun can be had without going to bars! I enjoy it (love to get a pint at a pub near me with a fireplace in the winter!) , but it’s not everyone’s cup of tea.

    5. I really believe that age is just a number – every year I do a girls’ ski day with my aunt (75), my mom (61) and me (32). We’re not avid skiers but any means – my mom and aunt literally only ski on this one ski day. They both easily went 20 or 30 years without skiing. But, my aunt was afraid of “use it or lose it”, so asked us to go out with her one day and now this is our tradition!

      I do a lot of other outdoor, somewhat intense activities. I figure that most of the time a broken bone is the worst that can happen, and as much as I want to avoid that, it’s a small price to pay for the fun I have.

    6. I have a little fun everyday, but in this season of life, I don’t have energy for big fun. Like I don’t have that much interest in paintball (well, I was never into paintball, but I mean an intense activity), or concerts, or dinner parties, or even playing rec sports. I have two toddlers, so most of my fun is mundane by other people’s standards. I find joy that my kids learned to play Candyland, or fun when I tickle them and they squeal. I find joy when my DH nibbles my neck and whispers in my ear. Our “big” fun is a day hiking, or a pumpkin patch, or getting fancy hot chocolate at the newly opened coffee shop. I have lots of quiet joy in hobbies like gardening, piano, and escapist novels.

      1. I agree that most of my fun is mundane, but I would urge you to not count out big fun. It doesn’t have to be an all the time thing, but I think it’s good for us to have big fun.

    7. I hate it when my coworkers complain how they can never do fun things now because they have kids. A) I do a lot of fun things with my kids. Sure, it’s different than what I did pre-kids, but I have a lot of fun doing things with my kids. B) I was always adamant about not giving up my hobbies or social life just because I had kids. I can always fine 10 minutes a day to read a chapter of the latest book I’m loving or call a friend. I have a rule that I must see a friend in person for social purposes once a week. I still make time for a few hobbies I love – either bringing my kids (hiking) or trading off kid coverage with my husband or getting childcare. My husband and I both row – so sometimes we drop the kids and the grandparents and get in a row.

      I will get my run in around the fields while my kids are at soccer. Or I’ll use that time to knit or read or call a friend. Or, I do life admin then so I free up time for myself later.

      We try to do a once or twice a month cook out with our friends and their kids – the kids run and play and we enjoy dinner together.

      My husband and I do a biweekly date night. We will not cancel it. We always have fun during that (no “shop” talk allowed).

      We make sure to have some family play time every night before/after dinner. Sometimes we go shoot hoops, sometimes we play a quick round of Go Fish, sometimes we take a walk, sometimes we have a dance party. But I make sure to actually play with my kids every night. We also prioritize family dinner which is mostly fun (if no one is whining about having to eat their vegetables).

      Socializing and hobbies are harder to fit in now, but not impossible. But, a LOT of the joy I get now is in raising my kids.

    8. Context: I’m early 30s and none of my friends have kids yet. My college friends live btwn DC and Boston. We used to do a summer beach weekend and a winter ski trip to see each other (as a full group, we do lots of smaller weekend meet ups). Now one friend says she’s done skiing because we’re getting old. Another friend no longer wants to do the beach weekend because there’s one room with two full beds in it and they no longer want to have to share.

      This is upsetting to me, because the beach weekend situation makes it sound like not sharing a room is more important than seeing close friends.

      I have many loved ones who ski into their 60s and 70s, so I don’t see why being 32 would be a deal breaker for skiing (and if you really hate it, still come and just hang out with us at night!).

    9. But… it’s ok to outgrow things or have your definition of “fun” change. Being in a crowded bar might feel fun and festive to my 25yo self but feel noisy and tiring now. Instead I have fun popping Champagne and playing backgammon with my husband in our living room, or hanging out on the stoop with neighbors with drinks in mild weather, or whatever. To a 25yo maybe I look boring and unfun, but to myself, I’m enjoying myself more than I would by trying to live up to the 25yo’s standards, so whatever.

      1. I’m thinking more the people who are like “I love running, but I can’t make the time to get out for a run anymore” not the people who are like “I used to love running, but it’s hard on the joints so I’ve gotten into cycling”.

    10. There are too many people here who say they miss seeing friends or a sense of community but they can’t fathom having people over for dinner becuase it’s too much work or their house isn’t perfect. It’s so sad.

    11. I do things I enjoy probably every day. But I wouldn’t call myself joyful. I’m not sure if that’s what you’re asking about, or if it’s more about who has time for hobbies, but fun and joy feel minimal and fleeting. American politics feels oppressive and it feels hard to maintain joy when the future looks bleak. Plus I have a toddler, so joy one minute can easily turn into tantrums the next.

    12. Not everyone has the same capacity that you do. For me, “fun” ebbs and flows. I’m currently in a life stage in which my time feels like confetti. My kids are older and physically need me less, but they also need rides to activities and the emotional needs are no joke. My close friends are all in the same phase, and we WANT to be around for our kids, which means scheduling anything just for us is hard. We do it, but not nearly as frequently as we’d like to.

      On a daily basis, my fun looks like exercising and reading. Pretty boring, really, but I value peace a lot more than being out and about.

      1. I spent a lot of time with my kids at that age (lots of driving yes, but also nightly dinner and they’d still go do “fun” stuff with the family), but I also had no qualms saying I’m “off duty” for a few hours on Saturday night. I could pick up or drop off, but I was going to see my friends. It’s good for you to prioritize yourself a few hours a week!

    13. When people say they don’t do something anymore, it’s often the same as an upper middle class person saying they can’t afford something moderately priced. They don’t literally mean that they couldn’t buy it, they just mean that they don’t value it enough to spend their money on it compared to all of the other competing things in their budget. That’s how most people feel about their time and energy in middle age. They focus on the things they care most about, and balance that with the needs of work, spouses, kids, and aging parents. There can still be lots of fun and joy in their lives (there is in mine), but it doesn’t necessarily look the same as it did when they were in their twenties because they care about different things. If they had more time or energy, they might still go running, but in the life they have, they don’t value it enough to fit it in over other things that are more important to them

      2. And what I’m saying is that too many people don’t prioritize anything fun or anything they like doing.

        If you’re not in an active crisis and you don’t have 30 mins a day to do something you enjoy, you’re doing something wrong.

        2. But how do you know they’re not doing that? I have lots of little things I do that bring me joy, but none of them are things I tend to talk about the same way I might talk about running a marathon or a big vacation. When life gets hard, the big braggy things sometimes get dropped, but that doesn’t mean that people aren’t still making room for things they don’t make a big deal out of.

    15. I have fun every day. Maybe it’s a mindset—I have a photo of my grandmother on a big motorcycle at her 80th birthday party, and another of my mother coming down a giant water slide at the water park with grandchildren when she was 85. They were great role models, and I aspire to model an active and open-minded approach to fun for my kids and grandkids.

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