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Sales of note for 11.5.24
- Nordstrom – Fall sale, up to 50% off!
- Ann Taylor – 11/5 only – 60% off sale
- Banana Republic Factory – 50% off everything + extra 25% off with your GAP Inc. credit card
- Bloomingdales is offering gift cards ($20-$1200) when you spend between $100-$4000+. The promotion ends 11/10, and the gift cards expire 12/24.
- Boden – 10% off new styles with code; free shipping over $75
- Eloquii – Fall clearance event, up to 85% off
- J.Crew – 40% off fall favorites; prices as marked
- J.Crew Factory – Up to 60% off everything + 60% off clearance
- Lo & Sons – Fall Sale, up to 35% off
- M.M.LaFleur – Save 25% sitewide
- Neiman Marcus – Up to 30% off on new arrivals
- Spanx – Lots of workwear on sale, some up to 70% off
- Talbots – Buy one, get one – 50% off everything!
- White House Black Market – Holiday style event, take 25% off your entire purchase
Sales of note for 11.5.24
- Nordstrom – Fall sale, up to 50% off!
- Ann Taylor – 11/5 only – 60% off sale
- Banana Republic Factory – 50% off everything + extra 25% off with your GAP Inc. credit card
- Bloomingdales is offering gift cards ($20-$1200) when you spend between $100-$4000+. The promotion ends 11/10, and the gift cards expire 12/24.
- Boden – 10% off new styles with code; free shipping over $75
- Eloquii – Fall clearance event, up to 85% off
- J.Crew – 40% off fall favorites; prices as marked
- J.Crew Factory – Up to 60% off everything + 60% off clearance
- Lo & Sons – Fall Sale, up to 35% off
- M.M.LaFleur – Save 25% sitewide
- Neiman Marcus – Up to 30% off on new arrivals
- Spanx – Lots of workwear on sale, some up to 70% off
- Talbots – Buy one, get one – 50% off everything!
- White House Black Market – Holiday style event, take 25% off your entire purchase
And some of our latest threadjacks here at Corporette (reader questions and commentary) — see more here!
Some of our latest threadjacks include:
- What to say to friends and family who threaten to not vote?
- What boots do you expect to wear this fall and winter?
- What beauty treatments do you do on a regular basis to look polished?
- Can I skip the annual family event my workplace holds, even if I'm a manager?
- What small steps can I take today to get myself a little more “together” and not feel so frazzled all of the time?
- The oldest daughter is America's social safety net — change my mind…
- What have you lost your taste for as you've aged?
- Tell me about your favorite adventure travels…
WASPy neglect
I’m trying to come to terms with childhood neglect and hope you may have some insight. I grew up in a nice middle class WASPy neighbourhood, we even went to Disney. I though these were the hallmarks of a good childhood. However my parents entirely opted out of the not fun parts of parenting: doctor (lol, no), homework (haha never), dentist (don’t even think about it!). The only medical care I ever received was vaccines, since otherwise I’d be kicked out of school which would have been very not fun for my parents. As an adult I have some pretty serious health problems from the years of neglect and I’m playing catch up. My parents took themselves to the doctor, my mom even had monthly RMT appointments, but my care never happened. It’s honestly a miracle I graduated since my parents didn’t invest any time in my education. I think part of it is that my parents didn’t ‘want’ kids, they had kids because that’s what hetero couples in the 90s were supposed to do. I’m sad I guess, I don’t care that this is costing me money. I just wish someone had loved 8 year old me enough to take care of her.
Go for it
I have been you and the ache is real
Now it’s your job to love the little person who lives in you
we cannot create a better past but we can create a better future
Cb
I’m so sorry, no direct experience but I wanted to express my empathy. My husband is going through a similar process (although less extreme) of reckoning at the moment. He missed a year of school due to what in retrospect was a breakdown, and his parents took him to a homeopathic doctor… I think having his own child is putting his upbrining in perspective. It’s hard to grapple with as an adult, and it’s really brave you’re confronting this now.
anon
Circumstances are different, but I have experienced something similar. My therapist told me to talk to my mother about it, the idea being it would help me emotionally let go of the hurt and the impact it continues to have on me. It actually was super therapeutic to be like, I want to share X with you and how it has impacted me. I don’t think you meant any harm or are a bad person by any means, and we all do things as parents that have impacts we don’t expect. I don’t expect you to do anything either, this conversation is just part of my coming to terms with this.
Of course, the impact on me was mostly emotional/psychological not medical, but I still think it could help.
Anon
Hi sis! It sucks and I’m sorry you are dealing with this. Like you, my parents drifted through life doing what society/culture expected of them, including getting married and having kids and going through the motions with them. I was left to my own devices as long as it didn’t inconvenience them. I don’t know what the answer is, but you’re not alone. I have a feeling your post really resonates with a lot of GenX/Older Millenial readers/
Anon
YES, us latch-key kids born around 75-85 all seemed to experience this! Talking to my age peers brings up so many stories in this vein. I wonder what happened that so many people were mindlessly reproducing out of obligation…if anything, I think BC was only improving.
WASPy neglect
Yes, I was very much a latch key kid! If I forgot my keys, I was wandering around the neighbourhood alone until someone came home. They never drove me to school, if I missed the bus I made the 3 mile walk alone or hoped one of the nice mom’s would pick me up on the side of the road.
Anon
What happened in the cities hadn’t made it into the rural areas yet. Both my parents grew up in rural areas, were sent to college because their parents had a little money and no idea what to do with them (and they didn’t know what they wanted themselves). They met, married and did what everyone who had their upbringing did because it was all they knew and no one really showed them it could be any different. That life worked out fine for men, and suited my dad just fine except for the fact that we didn’t even really know who he was until we were in school because he was never around (even though he lived with us). Total wannabe Kodak dad and he’d get terribly angry when we didn’t respond the way kids do on TV.
I’m happy to say my mom, once she kicked my dad’s dead weight to the curb, has flourished, but it was a rough ride to get there. I wish she had a badass woman mentor in the late 60’s to show her what life could be like. Yeah, I’m 99% sure I wouldn’t exist if that were the case, but she would have had an awesome life.
My dad found another woman willing to put up with his crap and appears to be happily married.
Anon
One more thing (and I’ll shut up) – my parents, mom especially, were raised in a culture of you do NOT talk about awkward things ever. Sex Ed was a book that mysteriously appeared in my room. When my mom visited and we had dinner with friends of mine who are about her age, my mom asked me if everything was okay between them. Reason? Wife-friend reminded husband-friend to set the table a little bit sharply when he didn’t get up from the TV the first time she asked him. Someone who finds “Spouse, get up, we’re about to eat!” a bit much in the early 2000s sure wasn’t going to go counterculture in the early 70’s without a LOT of guidance.
It took me a long time to learn to use my words because of this.
Anon
There is definitely some stuff that Gen Xers experienced that I am not sure other generations did. We were the generation where our parents had gotten married and had kids because they “had to,” but then the 1970s happened and people leaned into the “if it feels good, do it” thing, meaning a lot of Boomer parents got stuck with kids that, had they waited a few years longer, they probably wouldn’t have had. This is part of the reason why I am so stridently pro-reproductive-rights – people who are not into having kids absolutely should not be forced to have them. Because they’ll be crappy parents.
In my case, my parents cared for us, but once we hit age 12/13, my brother and I were basically on our own to finish raising ourselves. My parents started partying again like they were back in their 20s because “we were old enough to take care of ourselves” at that point and I think they were burned out on parenting and just flat-out didn’t want to do it any more. Technically yes, we were capable of self-care but there was some bad stuff that happened as a result of us being left unsupervised for large periods of time, including that at 14 I was running around with guys who were years older than me, going to frat parties at the local college, etc. No one even asked me questions about where I was going or who I was going to be with. It seems mind-boggling to me now. We were loved, but the lack of supervision at that critical adolescent time meant that I got into some bad situations (got pregnant at 16 and had to deal with it on my own) and my brother ended up addicted to drugs for some time, had to go to rehab twice, etc. We’re okay now and my parents think that’s some kind of proof that things “weren’t that bad,” and talking to them about how that’s not necessarily the case has been futile.
PolyD
“We were the generation where our parents had gotten married and had kids because they “had to,” but then the 1970s happened and people leaned into the “if it feels good, do it” thing, meaning a lot of Boomer parents got stuck with kids that, had they waited a few years longer, they probably wouldn’t have had”
My parents were pretty good parents, but I think what you said is true. I saw a lot of divorces happen around the time I was 10-15 years old (born 1967, my parents are still together after 50+ years of marriage) and it was very hard on the women who had been brought up to think you get married, have kids, and don’t work. To see them having to navigate getting a job with basically no other work experience, well, that’s why I always cringe a bit when women plan to drop out of the workforce to raise the kids. I think it can be a dangerous thing to do.
I wish my own mother had gone to college. I think she would have liked it and been good at it. I don’t think she was unhappy to have us kids and she did use birth control religiously, so to that extent we were wanted. But I wish she’d had more opportunities in her youth.
Anon
My mom’s a few years younger and she, as well as some of my teachers who were around the same age, often talked about how they didn’t want to leave their jobs when they got pregnant, but they were forced to/fired/let go. I remember the HUGE deal it was in my small town when a pregnant teacher fought to stay on once she started to show (I’m 44).
Anonymous
Please replace the word “boomers” in your list with black, or Hispanic, or gay to understand just how offensive you are being.
Anon
How is recognizing that some of the choices our boomer parents made weren’t choices at all? I feel a lot of empathy for women my mother’s age, even if I wish things had been different for me growing up.
Anon
My husband experienced the same. He nearly drowned in a lake on a weekend outing and his parents didn’t even notice (they were socializing at a picnic), his broken leg healed badly because they didn’t provide for his needs (left him alone so he had to crawl up and down the stairs for food), it goes on and on. His brother was never diagnosed but very clearly has Asperger’s, and has struggled his whole life with social and professional skills.
Honestly I think the fact that you can clearly recognize what happened is a huge step that will serve you well. My husband and BIL are still remanticizing their childhoods and acting like “ha ha Mom and Dad were just so quirky” and it’s really sad.
What you said about having kids being just what you do is spot on, and IMO increasing awareness of CF as an option is a huge benefit to society at large. I’m not suited to mothering and it doesn’t interest me; the best thing I ever did for my kids was to not birth them.
Anon
* romanticizing, not remanticizing
Anonymous
Wait – so your husband and BIL don’t think they had bad childhoods but yet they did?
Anon
Not the Anon above… this is a thing and it happens. Don’t ask me how I know this.
Anon
Correct. They clearly know deep down, but are unable to admit it, so they cope by inventing a better narrative.
(If you’re wondering why I feel like I have the authority to say so, I saw it happening in real time. We all grew up together.)
Anon
Not the OP but this is exactly what the males in my family are like, “it wasn’t so bad!!!”
Anon
This. Upon telling my brother my parents wouldn’t be allowed overnights with my children due to them being active alcoholics who drove drunk with us and hit us he responded, ‘but everyone did that back then, and they only slapped you, it’s not like they punched you or anything’. Uh…wut?!? His wife looked at him with utter horror at which point he doubled down that ‘it wasn’t that big of a deal!’.
anon
This is surprisingly common. My SIL is one of those children. And I’ve met her parents, and they seem like perfectly normal people, but my gawd, they were bad parents. Those kids basically raised themselves, and that is not a good thing.
Anon
My husband was raised in an environment much like the OP’s – his mom provided shelter, food and clothing but he did not go to the doctor or the dentist as a child because she couldn’t be bothered, despite the fact that she was a teacher and they did have health benefits. At age 8 she gave him money to go buy his own clothes at the thrift store and he rode his bike into town (8 miles there, 8 miles back) and a lady at the thrift store helped him pick out his own school clothes for the year. At one point, she quit teaching to write a book (thinking it was going to be some kind of hit bestseller), and they ran out of money and had to scrape money out of their couch cushions to go buy a bag of potatoes and some margarine, which is what they ate for the next two weeks until my husband’s grandfather found out what was going on and sent her a check so they had money to live on. There are tons more stories I can tell, and it’s clear to me there was pretty serious physical and emotional neglect that happened. But he says that he doesn’t feel it was that bad (it may be colored by the fact that he grew up in a trailer park where people would routinely beat their kids or leave them alone for weeks at a time, and so comparative to that, his situation wasn’t that bad, I guess). But the impact has been lifelong, physically and mentally. He is going to have to have a knee replacement soon largely because he had a serious injury in high school that my MIL never took him to the doctor for, it healed incorrectly, and the bones have now ground down to the point that the only cure for the pain is a replacement.
P.S., this is all stuff that I really wish I had asked more questions about before I married him. I would have married him anyway, but for years so much of his decision-making and his lackadaisical attitude toward self-care was mystifying to me. I had met his mom before we got married, of course and she seemed very caring and lovely. The childhood stories dribbled out in fits and starts and I had to put the pieces together to figure out what the heck had happened to him. Once I put the puzzle pieces together so much of how he was and how he made decisions made sense. If you are in a partnership with someone from an impoverished/disadvantaged background, and did not come from one yourself, I highly recommend doing some research/reading on childhood poverty and childhood neglect and how it impacts adult-decision making. Tremendously eye-opening for me.
Anon
Do you have an recommendations? Am in a similar situation and just becoming aware of the externalities. Would love some resources. Thank you!
S
I know this sounds odd but if you can get yourself onto GenX/trauma tiktok you’ll find a lot of similar stories and beautiful examples of people trying to re-parent themselves. It may help you realize that you are brave and very much not the only one.
Anne-on
This. First – I am so sorry. Therapy has been helpful for me, but you may want to be clear with your therapist that you do NOT want to reconcile with your parents since you know they won’t take responsibility for and apologize for their neglect. Not everyone gets that some parents deserve to be cut off as they refuse to acknowledge harm done, won’t change, and actively continue to traumatize their children by saying things like ‘we didn’t know better’ and ‘but you turned out fine!’.
We talk frankly with my kid about our childhood and why we don’t parent him the way we were/don’t see grandparents often. You don’t get to verbally/physically abuse your kids their whole lives and then magically transform into beloved grandparent who must be accomodated at all costs once your kids procreate. There are a LOT of angry boomer grandparents who are horrifed that their kids are holding them to task for their neglect and removing access to their grandchildren if their attitudes haven’t changed – see the Dear Prudence letter the other day about the grandparents who were BIG MAD that their daughter told them to get lost after they implied her parenting was turning their grandchild gay.
AIMS
I don’t know if this will be helpful to you and I will probably have criticism for saying this but I would try to reframe how you perceive this a bit in order to come to terms with it. There’s an interesting podcast about why US teens are so sad and anxious NOW (Plain English w Derek Thompson) and one of the answers suggested is social media but the other really big one is helicopter parenting. I realize you had the opposite problem and that there is a middle ground so I’m not just saying “buck up, it was fine!” but I do think that to some extent our parents are always going to F- up things, just like parents now are screwing up in new ways that are just as bad, and maybe it would be helpful to view your parents’ mistakes with some compassion because I find it easier to accept things when I do that.
Just a thought. If their neglect resulted in medical issues for you, that’s horrible but I just don’t think you’ll ever feel better by stewing in it and making it more malicious. They didn’t care for you and love you in the way you needed them to but it doesn’t have to come from an evil place (my mom had the most fucked up issues with dentists and they have really impacted my life, unfortunately, but I have come to accept that she herself had issues and was not per se trying to neglect that part, even if she did screw it up pretty royally).
Anonymous
Yikes, bad take.
Anonymous
OK, this is getting ridiculous. It’s ok to have a different take on things on the internet. Dear me. It’s helpful to hear all sides. Not everyone is going to agree with you.
Anon
She wasn’t talking about run of the mill lack of involvement; she’s talking about neglect.
My family abused me, literally. I spent untold hours of my childhood with my face stuffed into a carpet and fists raining down on my back. You know what they say about it now? What you wrote above.
There’s a time and a place for critiquing helicopter parenting and this isn’t it.
Anon
No, I don’t think it is. There’s nuance to every situation and Gen X didn’t corner the market on Adverse Childhood Experiences. Which I say as a Gen X.
Anonymous
+1 – as a Gen Z-er, latch-key kid, I will say, every generation f’s up their kids in different ways. Could they have done it better? Definitely. Should we judge our childhoods by those of current little kids? Probably not.
Anon
There’s a difference between not spending enough quality time with kids because you have a busy career and neglecting your kid’s health. Very different circumstances!
Aunt Jamesina
Taking your kid to the doctor (particularly when you have the means to do so) is and was the bare minimum. This isn’t like differing safety standards that have changed, or today’s helicopter parenting, where parents have good intentions but lack the ability to see how it might negatively affect their kid later. This is a basic need like food, clothing, and shelter and really can’t be excused.
anon
There is a world of difference between what you’re describing and what the OP experienced. She is right: that was neglect, not run-of-the-mill parenting mistakes.
Anonymous
I get what you’re saying parenting has swung WAY too far in the other direction with parents involved 24-7 even when kids should be allowed to figure things out/make mistakes + kids run the show in most homes now. There has to be a happy medium somewhere. I think the extreme over reaction of helicopter parenting now is likely in response to extreme underparenting in the 70-90s — lots of people promised they wouldn’t be that way with their kids.
Anonymous
Wow this is the worst take I’ve ever read on here.
AIMS
Do I get a prize? OP asked for insight. I don’t think insight = only having one point of view parroted back at you. I could be way off as there are no details provided (what kind of medical issues were neglected? My kids gets their vaccines at their annual medical check ups – so it’s not an unreasonable assumption that doctors visits were involved for OP too, with all the attendant check-ins re: what is normal/healthy). Everyone is quick to validate trauma and maybe that is right but I also think there is some validity in at least considering what I’m saying which is not, btw, to take away from how OP feels now, just to give it a bit more dimension.
Anonymous
Can you read? She literally says “the only medical care I received was vaccines.” I don’t know why you’d assume she’s lying about that and then provide advice based on a fantasy world you just made up.
Anon
Yeah, here’s a prize for a bad take. Congrats…on a board full of them, yours gets a prize.
OP said she has chronic adult health issues because of childhood medical neglect. Your devil’s advocate approach is obtuse.
WASPy neglect
I’ve had to undergo many surgeries to fix things that could have been dealt with via preventative care as a child. I’m also considered physically disabled because of one of the issues. Doctors assume I must have grown up in poverty because these were all such simple things, they’re usually pretty horrified to find out that I was solidly middle class and my parents just preferred going out with friends to taking care of me.
AIMS
What a lovely tone you have.
Can you read? I am making up a fantasy world because I am suggesting that just maybe vaccines come from a doctor’s office when we’re talking about a kid growing up in a WASP-y neighborhood (which I do not state as an absolute but clearly say is an assumption) and not from a line at a free clinic, but you are a master analyst for making all sorts of other assumptions about something that OP gives no details on?
Anonymous
Not AIMS but I also don’t believe you can get *only* vaccines with no medical care. If you’re in a pediatrician’s office, they’re going to do some kind of basic checkup before/after giving you the vaccine. In my county you can get vaccines at the local health dept, but even there you’re seen by a nurse who does some kind of a checkup and talks to the kid and/or parents. I know kids who were medically neglected and didn’t see doctors, and they didn’t get vaccines. It just doesn’t track to get all your vaccines on schedule but have NO other medical care.
Anonymous
AIMS I’ve been reading your posts for years and truly this is so out of line I’m wondering if someone took your screen name
AIMS
@WASPy neglect:
Thanks for answering. That is serious and upsetting. You have every right to be mad. I am sorry for you and especially for 8 year old you. Some people just aren’t meant to be parents, as you recognize. If you haven’t already, tell them how you feel. If you think it would help, give yourself permission to limit them in your life now. Get therapy if you need and haven’t. I do also think at some point we have to figure how to accept and come to terms with the things that happen to us and that’s the only way to move past. For me that usually means some form of compassion. Maybe that’s not for everyone (clearly not for some commenters). Just my two cents. I hope you figure out a way out.
Anon
AIMS, just stop. You aren’t a doctor and you aren’t her doctor; her physicians, the ones with medical degrees and years of experience, think you are wrong. Just. Stop.
Aunt Jamesina
You can get vaccines through county health departments and other public facilities without any other care.
Anonymous
Xennial here, and I all my school age vaccines at school, no medical check up at the same time.
Anon
Agree. WTH.
Anon
There are issues with helicopter parents (or lawnmower parents), but medical neglect is a huge red flag. The OP is describing neglect. You’re minimizing it, and that’s wrong.
Anne-on
This. I can agree to disagree with things like how much parents should play with their kids, letting them be a bit free-range, helping with school work, assisting paying for college, after school enrichment programs, etc.
But I don’t think it’s right to say that medical neglect, physical and emotional abuse, parents who had serious issues with drugs/alcohol that impacted their children were just ‘parenting differently’ and should be given a pass.
AIMS
I don’t think anyone is minimizing anything. There is no mention of alcohol/drug abuse or physical or emotional abuse. Medical neglect is obviously horrible but hard to comment on in the absence of some details at least. There are so many things that went undiagnosed because people didn’t know better from food sensitivities to Asperger’s and I don’t think you can lump them all in the same basket or assign the same level of culpability to every case.
anon
I’ve thought about this. For me it’s about separating what they did from the impact it had on me. Like, my mom made a lot of mistakes that I guess given how she grew up and a lot of related things, she actually did quite well vs where she came from. I can appreciate that but also appreciate that the impact she had on me is what it is. She’s not a bad person, but made some choices I don’t think she should have that hurt me, and I also wished that someone loved me enough to do these things.
It took me a while to fully appreciate both of those things without feeling like one negated the other. Things are complicated, but really internalizing this really helped me come to terms with this.
Anne-on
I think saying ‘I only got vaccines and no other medical care despite it being needed’ is pretty clearly medical neglect fwiw. For example, not having regular dental care when you can afford it (and I totally understand if money precludes it) can have MAJOR impacts on adult health.
Anonymous
You are minimizing. She says she did not go to the doctor as a child. That is neglect. Just stop.
Ugh
So…you want people to describe enough detail of their trauma so you can decide if it’s bad enough? Terrible, take a lap.
Anon
She.
Doesn’t.
Owe.
You.
Details.
Anon
AIMS, I have always liked your posts and respected your opinions, but you are flat-out wrong about this and continuing to double-down and try to defend your indefensible positions is beyond a bad look. I posted above that my husband also experienced medical neglect and it is a tough, tough thing to deal with for him and for me. Just because someone was not burned with cigarettes by an alcoholic parent does not mean they didn’t experience abuse! I am amazed we are having to explain this to you. To me it is a signal that you are looking at this through your own extremely privileged lens and don’t seem to be able to see anything else, which is not characteristic for you. I am really disappointed about your reaction to this topic. Yikes.
Anon
I deal with issues as an adult that should have been diagnosed and address when I was a child, but the medical neglect came from pediatricians who brushed everything off as no big deal. And despite the much better physicians I’ve seen since then, I still have a lot of strong feelings about cavalier and dismissive medical providers. But even if the health impact would have been the same, it means a lot to me that my parents took me to doctors, and I would definitely really struggle if they hadn’t. For me, they were my heroes and it was the doctors who didn’t give a darn. How hard would it be if my parents hadn’t given a darn either? (And I know some WASP families just don’t see doctors for anything, but that’s not what OP described either — they were getting their own health issues addressed.)
AIMS
Anon@11:35 – I am not going to defend anything I said other than to say that we all bring our experiences to this place and you don’t know mine so please don’t assume that you do. Let me assure you that my life has not always been privileged. I can write a lot about many terrible things. OP doesn’t owe me or anyone else details about her medical history but when you post without them people make their own assumptions. When she responded to me, I amended my response to her. If anonymous people on the internet chose to read what I said a certain way I can’t stop them and I am not going to continue having an unproductive argument (i am not lumping your comment in with the other reactions).
Anon
My thoughts exactly, frankly. This is just a different generation junking their way is the correct way. Part of growing up is getting therapy to get over your parents and then screwing your own kids up in new ways.
Anon
*Thinking
anon
Right? Even “good” parents eff up their kids. Obviously, abuse and true neglect and such is never excusable or okay, but I needed therapy to deal with my childhood experiences in a healthy way and disrupt patterns and such and I was not neglected or abused. I don’t have a close relationship with my parents and never will bc of how I was raised (which, again, was not bad bad but my parents are human and make mistakes like everyone else).
Also echo that a different “take” is not always the worst or a bad take. OP can choose to ignore whatever the OP wants to.
Anonymous
Shocking how aggressively people want to pretend that there’s no neglect in nice white families
Anonymous
I don’t think it’s that. I think it’s that people are speculating that what she’s describing isn’t neglect.
Anon
It sounds like OP was neglected. I don’t follow the path from her experience to “the entirety of Gen X was neglected”
Aunt Jamesina
Parents were absolutely expected to take their kids to the doctors and the dentist in the 80s/90s. This isn’t some new expectation that people are retroactively framing as neglect with today’s standards.
I do think the comments about about latchkey kids being neglected are interesting… I was one of them from 4th grade on in the 90s and loved it. I had a bit of alone time and some independence, plus I knew I could get help from neighbors if needed. Absent other details, I see *that* as a practice where today’s standards are so different we can’t apply them. You could absolutely contact DCFS about a kid with medical needs that are being ignored and they would take it seriously… less likely for a call about a (white, middle class) latchkey kid.
Anon
I don’t think anyone’s saying all latchkey kids were neglected or that being a latchkey kid is neglect. I do see others (and I had this realization myself some years ago) realizing that things were not what they seemed in their houses or others’ (friends, cousins, etc).
Aunt Jamesina
I was thinking of the “ YES, us latch-key kids born around 75-85 all seemed to experience this! Talking to my age peers brings up so many stories in this vein.” comment above (I think it stuck out because I fall in that age bracket). I guess to me, being a latchkey kid in and of itself isn’t neglect and is quite different from medical neglect.
Anon
I am the latch-key OP. I was expressing correlation, not causation. Latckkey parenting in itself is not something I would necessarily call neglect, but I noticed it to be prominent in neglect cases when discussing the concept with my age peers. Hope that clarifies.
Anon
I agree with AIMS and the above poster.
I come from a poor country in Asia and grew up middle class in the 80s. I didn’t have regular doctor visits, I got some vaccines when they were required by school (just the vaccine, no preventative care, no regular PCP, other vaccines came much delayed in my 20s, many years later) and I actually feel like I had a good childhood. Always had food and any needed medicines and continuous electricity and school textbooks so I could study and sometimes fiction from the lending library and so what if my teeth aren’t perfectly aligned. I came from a culture and time where preventative care wasn’t a thing.
A lot of this is looking through today’s parenting lens which leans towards overparenting. Underparenting has some advantages and I credit it partly with making me the confident person I am. I’ve had to take care of myself in many situations.
If OP went to disney and had a middle class WASPy childhood, well to my non-privileged ears that doesn’t sound so terrible after all. I am 40 now and not bitter, but maybe I could be if I thought about it more. For instance I never had a bike though I wanted one as a child, learnt to ride in my 20s also. Could barely save money to buy a new audio cassette, I would try to borrow and “tape” over a blank (reused) cassette. C’est la vie and I don’t dwell on those things!
Anon
“C’est la vie and I don’t dwell on those things!”
This is tremendously dismissive of the OP and other people who are here trying to talk about their feelings related to neglect/abuse they suffered in their childhoods. Can you look at a given situation and say “well, be grateful because it could have been worse”? Yes, generally. I mean we all could have been beaten to death and buried in the backyard by our parents; that would have been worse. You’re entitled to your cultural perspective on your own childhood but you are not entitled to tell other people “c’est la vie” and to get over it. How unbelievably selfish and tone-deaf. Next time maybe just scroll past conversations like this, if you can’t offer a more empathetic contribution.
Seventh Sister
I’m a GenXer and I don’t think that helicopter parenting does kids any favors, though my natural inclination is to get really involved in things (which is my personal gateway to helicopter-ness). I have to make myself deliberately back off sometimes, and also accept that my kids have to do some struggling, even if I have the time and ability to swoop in and speed up or “fix” something.
Therapy has helped me understand my parents, even when they did crappy things or set up crappy systems that make me react to situations in fairly non-productive ways. My dad was a big screamer/yeller, and it meant a lot to me when my mom (out of the blue) apologized for how hard they’d been on us kids. Did he apologize? No. But he’s a shuffly old man and I’m not 7 anymore.
Anonymous
Not sure why people are jumping down your throat, AIMS. I agree with your original comment–especially the second paragraph. The OP needs heal herself right now and may need to accept what happened in order to move on so she can heal.
Anon
I never thought about this in terms of my upbringing and neglect, but I am a people pleaser, and more specifically I realized I just want to feel important to people. I have a hard time figuring out why this means so much to me but this makes me realize it’s probably due to neglect as a child.
Anon
Yep. I didn’t realize this until I had a therapist point it out to me. I want to make people happy because I feel like if I can make people happy, they will want to stick around and be with me when I need them. Because nothing I did as a child was able to keep my parents engaged with me instead of taking off to do their own thing, regardless of what kind of emotional needs I had. As kids we see the neglect and internalize it – there must be something wrong with me, to make my parents not want to be here for me and take care of me. It doesn’t occur to us, as children, that the problem could be that our parents are selfish or irresponsible.
Anony
What does “taking off to do their own thing” mean? Why couldn’t your parents have their own lives too? I can’t be everything to my kids. I have a demanding career, husband, friends, aging parents, etc. I feel like, at some point, my kids need to find outlets of their own and find support from friends, which I hope they would be able to find from school or in the various scheduled activities I’ve let them try. Like I can do a monthly movie night but I won’t spend every weekend night with my kids because I often have other plans. Where is the line for it being neglect?
Anon
Your defensiveness about this leads me to believe you’re doing some things that either your kids have told you hurts their feelings, or that you know deep-down are probably not the best choices. That’s your stuff, so please don’t put it on me. Similar to the OP, I do not have to dole out dirty details of what happened to me as a kid but suffice to say, it was more than my parents deciding they didn’t want to spend “every weekend night” with us.
I am a parent myself and I am the last person who believes that parents should be utterly self-sacrificing and give up having any kind of their own lives. But I also think that parents who decide, when their kids are 12 or 13 years old that welp – that’s enough hands-on parenting for me, I wanna do what I wanna do and I’m sure the kids can figure things out for themselves probably shouldn’t have had kids. Because parenting doesn’t stop when you’re tired of doing it. I also agree that there’s too much helicopter parenting but what I saw in my own house, and some of my friends’ houses growing up, was the opposite of helicopter parenting – people leaving young teenage kids $20 for pizza money and taking off for an entire weekend; people going on extended business trips and leaving a 13-year-old in charge of an 11-year-old and an 8-year-old for more than a week, etc. The only advice I have for you is that if you feel guilty about what you’re doing, you probably shouldn’t be doing it. There is absolutely a line where partying with your friends becomes emotional neglect of your children and if you’re wondering if you’ve crossed it or are getting close? You probably have.
Anon
Hey WASPy neglect, you’re not alone. I don’t have a sense of the percentage with this upper-middle class background who have similar experiences because within my friend group I haven’t hear similar.
An example on the dental side: I have only a few natural teeth (and many implants) after not being taken to the dentist as a kid. I remember starting college with a giant hole in the center of one of my back molars that I could stick my tongue in. I did once in my 20s confront my parent about this and they said ‘You were impossible as a child! You never wanted to go!’. I don’t recall them ever talking to me about dental care or trying to make me appointments for a cleaning, etc.
I hear you on playing catch up and the continued impacts of this as an adult, I’ve spent what others spend on a down payment trying to take care of my teeth as an adult. That objectively sucks. Of course the dental example is against a mountain of other experiences. My siblings experienced other kinds of medical and educational neglect than I did (different ages), but it was all there.
Only in my late 20s did I get enough physical, experiential, and financial distance from my parents (no longer needing them for FAFSA etc), which allowed me to be able to acknowledge and move on from my experiences as a child. Therapeutic processing in the early stage of realizing you experienced childhood neglect can be helpful but the step after/alongside that processing is a creating a life you can feel taken care of in.
The best thing for me has been to create structures that help me feel safe, cared for, and secure. That includes financial security – savings and multiple income streams; medical care like annual check ups etc; a solid ‘community’- friends, colleagues, neighbors; and most of all realizing and taking care of my emotional and energy needs by responding to my feelings and maintaining boundaries.
After doing that I was able to look back and hold the totality of my childhood experience – the good and the bad – together and appreciate the good experiences too. When you’re early in the process it’s ok if you can only focus on the negative. It is healthy for your sense of self however to remember the good and you can cultivate these good memories part of your identity (one of my parents was great at play when I was a young child, for example, and I have a lot of positive core memories of that).
I’m sorry you experienced what you did as a child, that your needs were not met, and that you were failed by your parents on some very basic requirements of decent caretaking. The good thing is what defined your childhood won’t define your adulthood because that is the part of your life that you are in control over. Fortunately it is the majority of your life.
A.
I have a direct report (whom I also consider a friend) that is suddenly out on an extended medical leave. She’s doing some work from home, but is figuring out her diagnosis and it’s a rollercoaster of a time for her. Two young kids (6 and 7) and a spouse who is helpful but has a busy job. She’s far and away the primary parent/caregiver/everything in their house, and he’s now playing catchup.
There’s a meal train already organized for them and she has family support. If you were me, what would you send to her or their family to make life easier? It’s going to have to be via the ‘Zon because I tested + for C0VID last night, so I’m stuck at home for the coming days. I was thinking maybe some stuff for the kids, but things for her too? Budget is about $100.
Anon
What about paying someone to mow their lawn for a month? In my area, you can find someone to do it for about $25 a week. That way they don’t have to worry about it.
AIMS
I think the best thing you can do is tell her that her job will be fine and that you will work with her to navigate all this for the time being. I have a good work situation at present and even so I always feel so guilty whenever I am working from home because of something – whenever my coworkers make clear that this is okay and that I shouldn’t worry, I always really appreciate it.
FormerlyPhilly
This. 100%
Anonymous
I once was your direct report! My coworkers compiled a list of all their favorite streaming shows and movies and podcasts and audiobooks and sent it to me with a gift card and it was the best thing I received. Not sure what her medical issue is but I had a lot of empty hours to fill and loved the recommendations.
I understand the impulse to send a physical gift but the most valuable thing you can give her is a cash equivalent. I received so much stuff I didn’t need and ended up donating most of it. I would suggest a gift card for Uber (so she can get a ride to appointments in peace), Instacart (saves her a trip to the store), Amazon (for buying random stuff she might need for home care), Netflix or Hulu gift (for entertainment) or Seamless/Grubhub.
CHL
This was in a different time, but when I have had friends for whatever reason spending more time at home with their little kids, I’ve used Amazon to send a bunch of toys or activities that can keep kids busy without a lot of oversight. So like (minimal mess) art supplies, bubble mitts, sidewalk chalk, simple board games, etc. Seems generally well received.
Pants?
+1
In times of crises, with little kids involved, giving gifts for the kids is always appreciated. They are always well received. Even better, if you can babysit the kids on a regular schedule to give parents a break, but this is less appropriate for a work colleague/boss.
Curious
My manager sent me flowers when I was diagnosed with cancer, and it was amazing. Many colleagues signed up for the meal train and gave GrubHub gift cards. Also amazing. We needed 5 months of meals, which was something like 80 families, so it was a blessing to have such a broad network of people contribute.
Chest Reduction
Looking for advice for those that have had a b***st reduction. I’m 31 and unhappy with my size DD/E on a 34in frame. I’m thinking of reducing to a C or D. I do want kids and to b***stfeed in less than 5 years. I know that will change my size bit as I am unhappy now, I’m considering going ahead. Any tips on timing, recovery, etc?
Anonymous
Don’t get a reduction now and think you’ll be able to nurse. Doctors and the internet will tell you it’s possible and like sure, technically. But it’s hard enough for people who haven’t had major surgery in the zone.
Anon
I was a D cup before kids. Mine went up … (4-5 sizes? who even knows, I was a cartoon) during breastfeeding but they went down a lot after kids – now a solid B. That’s a ton of variation over the course of 3 years / 2 kids. All that’s to say – your surgical results are likely to be undone by the blessing / curse of child bearing and feeding.
Anonymous
Same boat – following with interest
No Face
My advice is to wait, as much as it sucks. Even if you didn’t want to nurse your future kids, your chest can change very dramatically through pregnancy and post partum. The shape, structure, size, and weight can change. It would suck to need a revision surgery.
I was 34D before kids, all kinds of sizes during the childbearing and nursing years (beyond an H cup!), and now a 34G with an entirely different shape than before. My reduction consultation is scheduled!
For another view, my mom had her reduction before me, never tried to nurse, and they look great decades later so do whatever you want.
Anon
Wait until after you have children and breastfeed. You will probably lose some breast volume after pregnancy and breastfeeding and may want a lift after that anyway. Also, if you’re on hormonal BC now, that could be influencing your size. I lost a cup size + just going off the pill way back when.
For now make sure your bra really fits. I followed the advice on here to use the Redd1t group a bra that fits and it has been life changing for me – I know it’s not like curing cancer, but having a bra I’m not dying to rip off the minute I walk into the door has significantly reduced my discomfort with my cup size. In fact, at this point I don’t think DD/E is really all that large…
Tanya
That’s what I was thinking. I’m a 34 DDD and while yes they’re large I’ve never really had any issues with it. I do agree that a well fitting bra makes a huge difference – thought I was like a 32 D or something and doing the abrathatfits calculator and getting bras that fit perfectly has been great. Its more comfortable and looks better.
anon
Wait. Your body is going to change a lot through pregnancy and nursing, and I can’t imagine putting your body through this before it settles into whatever it’s gonna be. Also, I wouldn’t assume that nursing after a reduction is going to work.
If you don’t want to wait, which is understandable, make peace now with br**stfeeding potentially not working out. And that’s FINE, btw. Formula feeding is just fine.
anon
Just curious–would you be paying for this out of pocket? I’m a 32DD and while I would like smaller breasts, it’s totally a cosmetic thing. I don’t have huge ridges in my shoulders, or back pain, or anything that would compel my insurance company to pay for it. My mother had a reduction (in her 70s) and she says it’s a pretty serious surgery, so I’ve been trying to weigh my vanity, the cost, and the recovery time, and what’s most important to me. I kind of feel like 32DD is on the cusp of whether this surgery is really merited–no judgment on you or your decision, this is just me musing for myself.
Anonymous
It’s all relative to what’s comfortable, self image, comfort and other proportions, though. I think anybody with a D+ cupsize can feel how the bust can dictate how the world meets you as well as what choices are limited in terms of how you want to look.
Personally, I would aim for 28E if I do get a reduction, the equivalent of 32D. While I’d love smaller, that would already be a reduction of 9 cupsizes, and I don’t think smaller could be successfully shaped. If I was 32D already, I’d probably just try to keep stable and not get bigger, since the surgery is so major.
Anon
I’m a 32DD. At this size, it’s purely about how the breasts fit on your frame. My ribcage is small but my hips/thighs are not (especially as I’ve aged – I’m 41), so my chest is basically proportional to the rest of me. If you are slimmer and not young, a reduction may be worthwhile; if you are young, consider what your body will look like when middle age hits and weight gain to your bottom half is all but inevitable.
Anon
+1
Anon
My reduction is one of the best things I did for myself, but I was not able to breastfeed with any kind of meaningful supply 20 years later, so I would think hard about how important that is to you. To me, breastfeeding was more of a nice-to-have than super important so the trade-off of avoiding 20 years of back pain was totally worth it, and I look about the same as before, so I think this is just a question of what matters more to you.
Anon
I had a reduction in my early 20’s and I remember the doctor saying to me that it might affect the ability to breastfeed but I didn’t know that I would be able to anyhow – there’s no guarantees if you haven’t already had the experience. It made so much sense to me. When I did have a baby 15 years later, I was able to but it was difficult and I stuck with it for 5 weeks and then gave myself the absolution to stop. Both decisions were two of my best – I don’t regret either in any way and know that the mental and physical benefits of the reduction were tremendous.
Jolene
Dresses in a casual office: help. How do I find that right balance between not too casual/weekendy/flirty and too formal/stuffy/stiff? Let alone the fact that sometimes I think cocktail attire is office-appropriate. Are there go-to fabrics, cuts, patterns that are go-tos for office appropriate?
I walk to work and things are starting to get hot and humid, so I’m definitely interested in wearing dresses regularly, but I don’t feel as confident in my choices as I do with black slacks + blouse = done.
AnonATL
If you don’t want to go with classic sheaths, I just bought a couple jersey dresses from boden for this purpose. They have several cuts in a lot of colors and patterns.
I think old Navy has a few more budget friendly options as well. Cotton shirt dresses are good too.
PolyD
I recently got from Loft a navy shirt dress (short sleeves, flared skirt but not poofy) that is very nice and I think would be appropriate for work. I’m not back at the office full time and my office has always been very casually business casual.
Cornellian
I recently got a silk shirt dress from Quince that I think hits that balance. Not very pricey, and cool for summer.
AIMS
Avoid evening fabrics – lace or sheers are always inappropriate.
Nothing low cut or too short. Smocked dresses are popular now but kind of hard to pull off at work imo – I have done it on casual days but usually with a longish blazer over it. Sleeves that are too pouffy tend to look off in the office too, I think (more weekend/off hours look).
I generally try to limit to 1-2 “girly” details – so flower print but not too pouffy or pouffy but in a more conservative pattern/color. I think menswear prints on a dress are good – one of my favorite summer dresses is a blue and white vertical stripe midi shirt dress (just be careful that it looks like an actual dress and not just an oversize men’s shirt, which can be an issue with some versions of this).
I think simple fabrics are best – wool, cotton, silk. No shiny synthetics. Generally details like buckles, other accents, don’t help. A line, sheath, something collared are good shapes usually. Wraps can work but depending on your body type, some may be too low cut.
London (formerly NY) CPA
Shirt dress or wrap dress are excellent for this. With the wrap dress, just make sure it’s not too low cut and/or add a cami (I prefer in a matching tone, but could do contrasting).
NYCer
J. McLaughlin has some styles that work for casual offices.
Ribena
I try to avoid shiny or glossy fabrics and lace for the office, because they read “evening” to me. But an identical shirt in a cotton weave with a Broderie anglais trim would be fine to go to the office for me.
Anon
I would lean heavily into shirt dresses for business casual + a hot, humid walk to work. If you just search on the term shirt dress I think you will find the right thing.
I know people love to recommend sheath dresses on here but I suspect they’re more formal than you’re going for.
Anon
This is a classic shirt dress style
https://www.nordstrom.com/s/6493994
(I’m not wild about this particular print, personally, but I know this type of print has been trending)
Anon
Those of you who have had plastic surgery, how did you doctor shop? I want a rhinoplasty. Every time I find a recommended surgeon, their IG and RealSelf show me a bunch of “slightly quirky” noses trimmed down to “Barbie noses”. My nose is gigantic, bulbous, bumpy, hawk-like, and pushes very obviously to the left starting just below the bridge. Imagine a woman Jimmy Durante. Nothing I’m seeing in reviews or on social comes close to how bad my “before” is, and I’m starting to wonder if I should be looking for a surgeon who focuses more on reconstruction than on aesthetics.
Anon
I’d get referrals for the best ones in your area and go for an individual consult. There’s a lot of before and after imaging you can do as part of that process. Instagram isn’t the place to assess someone’s work specific to you.
Pep
Agreed – I’ll bet there are a lot of pic of patients that aren’t represented on the IG that the doctor can show you. Get the consult with the best recommended doctors and ask to see photos of before/afters that would be similar in scope to your situation.
Anne-on
I talked a bit about getting a rhinoplasty consult yesterday afternoon. I went to the rhinoplasty society and did a search for certified members in my state – of which there are 3. Total. I looked at their websites and those doctors had images/approaches that were very clearly more thoughtful/less cookie cutter than the other doctors I found through word of mouth for people who used them for small tweaks like Botox/scar revision/etc. or who were well rated for things like tummy tucks/bre@st surgery. Rhinoplasty is a tricky and very individual surgery, so I wanted an expert in JUST that.
Anon
OP here: this is exactly the type of thing I’m looking for, thanks so much!
Also, sticker shock! I’m in rural PA and the closest members are in NYC. Their minimum prices are twice what I’d estimated. I checked back to yesterday’s post and I don’t think saving 40-50k for a facelift is overkill.
Anne-on
I’m in mod for some reason, but search the rhinoplasty society website. Those doctors seemed MUCH more of ‘experts’ in THAT particular surgery vs. a lot of the local plastic surgeons who are generalists that do more lipo/tummy/botox work.
Anon
You want a surgeon that does faces only. Specifically, you want someone that does a lot of rhinoplasty every month. Rather than the rhinoplasty society, I’d look for someone that is double board certified: Board-certified by the American Board of Facial Plastic and Reconstructive Surgery AND Board-certified by the American Board of Otolaryngology – Head and Neck Surgery.
Anon
Great feedback, thank you!
Elle
Is suede a spring shoe material? I always think of it being for fall but there are a lot of suede shoes on the market rn. Same with velvet shoes to me those scream winter. Am I behind the times?
Anon
Suede yes for spring (especially when not in black), velvet no imo
Anon
I think suede is year round.
AIMS
I think it’s better for fall/winter with the exception being very obviously springy colors. I had a beautiful pale pink pair of suede pumps that worked year round. I would not do my black or fall colors though.
Anonymous
I think we’re in an era of “wear what you want.” I wouldn’t think twice about wearing suede shoes in spring. I’d probably wear velvet, too, if i happened to have velvet shoes in a color and style that worked with my spring clothes. To me, it’s more about the color/cut of the shoe than the material.
Cat
year round in lighter or nude-for-you colors. Velvet I’m not so convinced yet.
Anon
I love lighter colored suede shoes for warm weather months – I have fawn and a dusty blue, and my most worn pair were light grey, but I wore them into the ground. I would put the black suede away until tights weather.
Anonymous
Outfit help! I have two events coming up and I have no idea what to buy or wear. This is my first large social event since pre COVID. Very flexible budget. Need entire outfit advice (clothes, shoes, jewelry). 5’10”, about a size 10 pear, big feet. Tony New England suburb.
Event 1: parents night out school fundraiser/auction. Hosted at a country club but event invite says “casual.” It’s 6pm-10pm on a Friday. I assume despite “casual” that country club = no jeans for men or women.
Event 2: Kentucky derby party hosted by friends at a restaurant/bar. 4pm-???. It’s the sort of event with a “best dressed” prize so I’m assuming fascinators highly encouraged. Would also appreciate advice husband’s attire for this one, too, though he can always just wear slacks and a blazer to both.
Hit me with your links and recs. I am willing to spend since I have not gone out in soooooo long :).
Cat
Event 2 – for husband, seersucker suit would be fun, but if you don’t want to spend THAT much, get a really fun bow tie for him to wear with his regular business casual :)
For you – some type of formal sundress (think Hobbs or Reiss dresses maybe) and yes, fascinator or hat!
Anon
Re #1: yes, no jeans. I have found And Other Stories to run very long, so perhaps their midi dresses would be perfect for you. There are some really cute ones (and they have shoes). Swedish brand, so geared for taller people makes sense.
Re #2: I thought that Derby = giant hats? No idea re husband attire — something southern social preppy, like Vineyard Vines attire. Unless your husband can pull off a jockey look, slacks / blazer should be fine.
Anonymous
Thanks- I just checked these out. They look like long sundresses. I feel like that’s going to be cold for an evening in early May in New England? I was thinking more like ankle pants + top? But of course have no actual ideas.
Anonymous
Dress
Anon
#2 is definitely a dress event.
Anne-on
I’m in mod for including links, but country club casual in New England tends to mean elevated sun dresses, not pants, and rarely jumpsuits for women. Rufflepuff dresses will serve you well here, as will Lily Pulitzer, Kate Spade, Anthropologie, etc. Colors would be a bit more muted than you’d wear down south (though god knows we’re super excited to see sun/warm weather right now so that wouldn’t throw me too much). I’d avoid anything super short, super shiny, and super tight. Makeup will be done but natural (think more Bobbi Brown/Laura Mercier vs. Katie Jane Hughes) and a nice blowout will be more popular than an updo (except for the derby party – I’d go all out for that one!).
Anne-on
For both – take a look at Kate Spade. They are $$ but do a great job (imho) of nice but not super fancy weekend dresses – elevated sun dresses – that are very flattering on different body types.
I’d buy this entire outfit if you are ok with the slightly open back:
https://www.katespade.com/products/cafe-stripe-midi-dress/K7470.html?cgid=ks-clothing-dresses-view-all
Or this is super pretty too:
https://www.katespade.com/products/rooftop-garden-floral-grace-dress/K8563.html?cgid=ks-clothing-dresses-view-all
Anonymous
OP here. I LOVE this dress. I might get it for the derby party. But I think it is too much for the PTO dinner. The invite is “casual- come as you are.” I’d wear jeans and a fancy top were not at a country club.
Anonymous
L.K. Bennett has some great dresses that would work for the Derby party.
London (formerly NY) CPA
For event 1, agree no jeans. I think it means more like khakis and button down for guys. Equivalent for women. I’d probably do a spring-y navy dress, since navy translates better for evening.
For event 2, any kind of dressier day dress (think: Easter brunch) would work well. Definitely get a hat or fascinator. I bought one off @mazon and use it every year. Surprisingly good quality for $15 or $20! Slacks and a blazer would be fine for your husband. Seersucker or Vineyard Vines would be great to add as well–check out a seersucker bow tie if you’re not ready for the full suit look.
The dress codes for the two events are actually pretty similar. I feel like the ubiquitous Nap Dress would be appropriate for both/either of these, and khakis with button down and navy blazer for your husband. If the crowds are different, maybe buy a dress that could be dual-purpose?
Anon
https://athleta.gap.com/browse/product.do?pid=846038012&cid=89745&pcid=89745&vid=1&cpos=24&cexp=2702&kcid=CategoryIDs%3D89745&ctype=Listing&cpid=res22042708651918035304135#pdp-page-content
https://www.dolcevita.com/collections/shoes-sandals/products/ronin-sandals-in-ivory-stella
I’m same size as you and have this on today for casual outfit, lots of compliments and it is comfortable.
Anon
and again same size as you-
for the derby party:
https://veronicabeard.com/collections/dresses/products/florencia-dress-2?color=Stone%20Multi
https://veronicabeard.com/collections/dresses/products/beilla-dress?color=Vivid%20Orchid
I know someone suggested a nap dress, but I feel like those make me look much larger (almost huge, being so tall). I would not feel good in that look!
Bewitched
Holy cow that first Veronica Beard dress is beautiful but if I were OP, $800 for a dress would be well outside my budget! I just bought this one from Nordstrom which had a similar vibe and it was gorgeous.
https://www.nordstrom.com/s/maggy-london-ruched-waist-gown/6613628
NYCer
You could definitely wear a Hill House nap dress to Event 1. ;) Half joking! But in all seriousness, I think you will see lots of floral print long dresses. You could also do a shorter sundress plus a denim jacket. Or white jeans and a colorful blouse. For shoes if the weather is nice, I would go with flat sandals. If it is cooler (and depending on your outfit), loafers work.
NYCer
I meant to include… I think Veronica Beard has nice dresses that would work for both.
Anonymous
I would wear nap dresses to both of these events.
Nylongirl
Hi! For the Derby event, I’ve gotten 2 fascinators from Pippa and Pearls on Etsy. They are great to work with & ship very fast.
AIMS
What will the weather be like? I am a bit obsessed with this dress and think you could wear it either/both with different accessories.
https://www.jcrew.com/p/womens/categories/clothing/dresses-and-jumpsuits/button-front-eyelet-dress/BH290?display=standard&fit=Classic&color_name=peri-shadow&colorProductCode=BH290
For the casual event 1, I would do flats, a light jacket, and maybe hoop earrings. For derby event 2, espadrilles or bright heels (for some reason I am picturing bright pink) and fun headwear.
AIMS
In moderation, but also I love a polka dot dress for the derby. There are some good ones. I like this Boden one: https://www.bodenusa.com/en-us/violet-square-neck-midi-dress-navy-regular-dot/sty-d0124-nav?cat=C1_S2_G4
And, they have other cute dresses too, I think this one could be great for event 1 with flats: https://www.bodenusa.com/en-us/fixed-wrap-jersey-maxi-dress-multi-enchanting-peacock/sty-d0142-mlt?cat=C1_S2_G4
Anonymous
Are any of you here not close with your families of origin or you once were close but have drifted apart? If so do you feel bad about that or is it more – it is what it is? I don’t mean the normal life thing that happens of – well I have a spouse now and we make decisions together so why would I discuss x with mom, dad or sibling rather than spouse? I mean more like you don’t tell them stuff even happy news until well after the fact once decisions are made or you dread telling them? In my case as I’ve grown older I realize how much mom/dad just don’t get it/value what I value – to them $$ and stability and prestige are all that matter and happiness is just not a concept. And as they’ve gotten older, they seem to care much less about what I do/want — as long as it’s $$ and stable, whatever. On top of that dad and sibling (and mom to a lesser extent) are SO negative. You say one good thing and it’s met w 10 – but what if this happens, but this isn’t good because of x minor detail. To the point where it’s like why bother and I rarely share; makes me sad esp because I’m older and not married and don’t have many friends so it’s not like I have tons of people to talk with. Also confuses me because they legit believe they know me incredibly well and IMO it’s become really surface level in the last decade or two. Anyone else?
anon
I am not close with my family and never really was tbh. I felt judged and criticized always a a child/teen, so I stopped telling my parents anything meaningful and even after therapy that has continued throughout my adult life (in my 40s now). My parents are not bad people at all, but I just don’t have the energy to try to open up that line of communication. I also am not close to my sister. If anyone needed anything, I would help (within reason), but other than that we are surface level. My boyfriend who is Greek and whose family is all up in each other’s business finds this very strange/different but I refuse to feel even remotely bad about it. My parents want what’s best for me and are generally supportive when I do tell them things, but I NEVER consult them on decisions or anything like that. Same with my sister. We don’t talk really. I just found out yesterday that they decided they wanted to try for kids two years ago (delayed by the pandemic) bc I went to dinner with them while in their state. It’s the first time I have seen them in person in maybe 8, 9 years? Actually maybe since their wedding? No idea honestly.
I do not subscribe to the idea that just because you are related to someone you have to be close to them even if nothing objectively bad ever happened. I am in control of my own life and generally do not do things I don’t want to do. I have built a supportive and incredible friend family. Those are my trusted people.
Anon
This is the exact right attitude. Build a happy life filled with people you can trust.
Anonymous
While I am super close to my mom there are sometimes I do not tell her things until after they have happened or when I am ready with answers for all the questions or objections she will make. I know she only wants the “best” for me when she makes some critiques, but it can be exhausting when I am excited about something and she seems to only find what might be wrong with it. To her credit there are times when she is right about some choices not being the best but doesn’t grasp that options can be limited (houses, jobs etc and sometimes you have to take what is best at the time).
She also seems to worry about me dying at a much higher rate than most mothers I have encountered. This could be unresolved trauma from when I was a child and had many medical issues and she was told a handful of times to say goodbye to me because I would die soon. She tracks me on my phone and always requests I send her my flight info whenever I am flying. I was also an only child and she was a SAHM so I was her entire world.
While it makes me sad that she isn’t more laid back about things or that I sometimes hold information back from her anticipating her reaction, I know she loves me more than anything. And at this point in her life she is unlikely to change at all. So instead of fighting back with her about certain things I just let it slide. I want to cherish the time I have left with her instead of spending it arguing.
I am also very fortunate that I have a handful of super close friends I can tell anything to so that might skew how I view it. I think it is ok to feel sad about a parental relationship not being what you want and also changing over time. Relationships with parents can be HARD. And their objections or disinterest can hurt more than when it is a friend.
All that rambling to say yes I agree with you and I don’t have a perfect solution.
Anon
Good lord, stop letting your mom track your phone! That’s not ok.
Anonymous
My first reaction was to try and defend her actions, but I know it is not “ok”. I really think she should go to therapy for her extreme levels of concern for my safety but I have zero idea how to bring that up without it causing a fight. She has had a lot of medical issues lately and is getting older so I am more hesitant than usual to bring up anything that would cause tension. But hell maybe I need to go to therapy first.
anon
Just turn it off on your phone. She is an adult and needs to learn how to manage her emotions and reactions to other people’s perfectly reasonable actions. That is not your job.
anonypotamus
Reading your first paragraph, I was like, oh, I guess we are sisters! My mom is the same way about finding the criticisms. Even with the happiest news, she will find something to be negative about and that will be the first thing she says. She is also ultra concerned about my and my sisters’ safety and has us check in with her when we travel, etc. As far as I know, she does not track our phones, but everything else resonates with me. It makes me sad, because I find myself withholding information from her about more and more, which definitely damages our relationship. It is something I am working on in therapy, because my mom’s reactions are not my responsibility. I want to protect her from stress and anxiety, but I also realize that it is enabling. So I guess I am also rambling too, with no solution, just commiseration.
Anonymous
100%. Only reasons I feel bad are A) guilt from them about why we aren’t close and B) societal expectation that if you are a stable worthwhile high-achieving person, you will have a warm relationship with your family. I actually had a boyfriend who broke up with me because I wasn’t close to my mother and he didn’t see himself being with someone who didn’t have that. At the time it felt like insult to injury. Now I force a little more closeness with my family than I actually want to have, honestly it’s mostly to “look better” while I am dating. It sucks.
Peloton
My parents and I have a surface level relationship. It is safer for all involved than a more in depth relationship.
I figured out at about age 25 that I could never compete with their god, so I gave up trying. It sounds like your parents’ god may be status and security. Every person has their own god that they are chasing desparately due to whatever trauma or pain they grew up with, and not every person is capable of setting that god aside to see the humans here on earth with them. It is particularly painful when the people who are incapable of seeing you are the people who are supposed to see you the most clearly.
I am pregnant now, and I am desperately hopeful that I will be able to always put my kid before whatever my god is. But I know that it will be a struggle, and I’m terrified I, too, will fail at it.
Cornellian
Welp, thanks for that probably accurate but depressing take this morning.
Anon
Your phrasing hits me right in the irony bone. I’ve always said my dad and I don’t get along because of religious differences: he thinks he’s God, and I disagree.
Anon
Oof. This hits very close to home.
Anonymous
I can relate. At this point, I paint a rosy picture of my life in very broad strokes for my family. They don’t really ask for much detail and prefer to hear only good news. Instead, I make myself a good listener and ask them about themselves and listen intently to the same boring stories they tell repeatedly in order to make the time pass. We do enjoy similar things, so this approach makes it possible to have a very nice time walking the dogs, cooking or eating in a restaurant, or visiting a museum or whatever and just focusing on the shared experience. My sibling is a different story from my parents at this point, and I could open up to her as she has me. But most of the time we talk when she needs something from me so I try not to turn around and burden her unless it is to demonstrate that I really do understand what she is going through at the time. I am lucky to have built a pretty good network of friends and my family are now all far away, so I just try to seek counsel from friends and make family visits/talks as pleasant as possible for us all. I know it is not ideal and it can be painful to know your family is not truly there for you, but I have just resigned myself to the fact that my parental relationships will be largely surface level and making the most of them within the bounds.
Anon
Stop telling them stuff and work on feeling validated on your own without their approval.
Anonymous
(Anon at 10:50) This is phrased harshly but I agree with the sentiment. What I wrote above has been true for years, but I made a bigger breakthrough two years ago after my BF gave me some perspective when I was a ball of anxiety before a family trip when they were to meet him. I was terrified of what they might say to him, based on some awful past behavior towards my BIL, and my BF straightened me out that both he and I are fully-grown adults with our own lives and I needed to stop worrying so much about my parents’ opinions and acknowledge that he is capable of separating their actions from mine. That trip was scheduled for April 2020, so it never came to pass, but the breakthrough happened anyway.
Anon
I definitely have my parents on an information diet. As you specifically mention, I never tell them anything unless it’s already done, because they will try to insert themselves into any decision-making process and inevitably make everything worse. Latest example: my husband was floundering for topics of conversation at Christmas, and let slip that we were replacing our HVAC system. My dad jumped in and forced us to use his friend’s company, who were insanely incompetent and expensive. (Not interested in justifying how we were “forced” because there are a lot of moving parts in keeping my family’s peace, it’s complicated and beyond the scope of this thread topic.)
This goes double when it comes to my career. They are boomers who were both in a union (steelworker and teacher) and their understanding of my experience as a woman in tech is ridiculously off base. Neither of them have ever worked for a private company or done their own salary negotiation. The last time I told my mom about my job search, she told me I was risking losing the job because countering is “so greedy”, and I should just take the first offer and be grateful.
So TL;DR: yes we only ever engage in what a stranger would categorize as polite chit-chat.
Anon
Commiseration: I also stopped talking to my mom about my career, as she was a teacher and just does not have a frame of reference for what it’s like to be senior leadership in CorpAm. Any mild complaint about working too much was always met with the retort “see, this is why your grandmother and I wanted you to get your teaching license” – never mind that I make 3x what I could make as a teacher. So I just quit talking about my job other than to say it’s going great. She also worked in the same position in the same district for 25 years, so my changing jobs after 5 or 7 years is, of course, a huge deal to her and I get lectured about “job hopping.” I talk to my parents about a lot of things but my career isn’t one of them.
Anon
My parents are both dead. My dad died in my 20s, my mom died when I was in my 50s.
I was as close to my mom as I could be without living near her physically. She made some poor choices after my dad died, and some of those choices (her next partner after dad, who she was with for 15 miserable years) made me limit my time around her in person, but we did talk on the phone a lot.
My mom was critical and would have been a lot more impressed with me if I were prettier rather than successful, but in the fullness of time and with the wisdom of my own advancing age, I realize my mom was a victim of her own upbringing, was not a perfect person, and was a good enough mom to me. My family had money troubles when I was a kid and I think she carried around a lot of resentment about that (not the stay at home mom life she had dreamed of/been raised to do) and if influenced a lot of her parenting and later life choices – see terrible partner after my dad, but hey at least he had a little money.
In the end, Mom was the only person keeping her kids in touch with each other, and now that she’s gone I think we will only see each other for weddings and funerals, if that.
I think it’s important to see your family members, particularly your parents, as the fully flawed human beings they are. Stop asking them to parent you once you’re an adult. Decide if you want to be in their lives or not based on who they imperfectly are, but stop expecting them to be a godlike figure in your life. Anyway, per another comment above, when they think they are gods that doesn’t work either.
Anon
was anyone else surprised to learn that flight attendants were not considered on the clock until the boarding doors close. i find that shocking as they are clearly already working before that. glad at least Delta is starting to pay them for it
Anon
Pilots pay is similarly odd – my pilot friend told me she isn’t paid for the pre-flight check time (I think it was shet only gets paid doors closed to doors open? Or wheels up to wheels down?) – a very unexpected structure. Obviously flight attendants have even more pre-flight work, so it’s crazy they weren’t paid.
Anon
Does it also matter (perhaps primarily) for when they have exceeded their FAA work hours in a day? Like when the whole flight has to cancel b/c the pilot has gone FAA illegal due to the clock running out or they don’t have enough flight attendants who can legally work the flight? I’ve had that happen one day when there were a lot of storms causing delays.
Anon
Neither do pilots. Flight crew are paid only for flight hours, not for any time on the ground or in hotels away from home. Pilots get paid peanuts when they’re first starting out, and FAs get paid so little at first they qualify for SNAP. This is a ploy – and a poor one when they’re paying them only 50% – to get them to not vote for a union.
Anon
I thought that all those people were in unions — alpa, flight attendants, ramp workers, etc.
Anon
Delta’s not unionized because it’s a historically southern airline. The other airlines are.
Anon
Actually, posting a clarifying footnote. Part of Delta is unionized – the part of it that’s legacy Northwest. Northwest (from Minneapolis, right?) was unionized, and the whole industry told Delta it was setting itself up for a world of hurt when it tried to merge its northern, unionized workforce with its southern, non-union workforce. It was a choppy several years as they integrated. (Both of these Anon posts are from me, the airline brat below.)
Explorette
Delta pilots are unionized.
Nylongirl
Hi, married to a pilot…. They get paid when they push from the gate.
Anon
Hi, I’m also married to a pilot! And yes they get paid essentially from push away to door opening. A small per diem while they’re in hotels or away from base, but otherwise only paid for flight hours – they may be away from home for 4-5 days and only paid for 15-20 hours during that time.
Anon
I was, and I’m an employment lawyer! I mean, in practice that means when flights are delayed for hours on end, the flight attendants are just dealing with crabby passengers with no compensation whatsoever? I’m not sure how they were ever able to hire anyone. Banana pants.
Anonymous
Somewhat similarly, I learned recently that long haul truckers don’t get paid for time spent loading and unloading, which can apparently be many hours. They ONLY get paid per mile. I had no idea.
Anon
So, theoretically, the per mile rate is calculated to compensate the time spent loading, sleeping and eating. I realize it practice it may not work out like it’s supposed to, but it’s not an inherently unfair or immoral system to pay someone a per mile rate if that rate factors in time spent on other tasks besides driving. It all depends on what the rate is. Source: BFF’s dad is a truck driver.
Anon
I’m sure that’s the thinking on flight crew pay as well.
Anon
I’m an airline brat. My dad was a pilot and my mom a flight attendant. I grew up on a 737 – that smell of jet fuel and coffee you smell when you first entire the aircraft smells like home to me ha. Because in the ’80s, you could totally bring your kid along with you on a 3 day trip.
Flight attendants had a grueling job even then in the waning glory days of aviation. I remember other crew members asking me if I wanted to be a flight attendant like my mom, and my answer was a resounding no. I made almost as much in my first job out of college ($55k) as my mom made after 30 years of flying ($65k). Flight attendants are poorly paid, disrespected, and the only benefit to speak of – getting to fly free – is practically useless because there are never any open seats. Please, please respect your flight attendants. Neither my mom nor I understand how or why anyone does it these days.
Cornellian
Thanks for posting this. I’m always polite to flight attendants and don’t travel much at any rate for environmental concerns, but I didn’t know it was as bad as all this thread reveals.
I’ve always been bothered by the appearance requirements. Obviously you have to be quasi-fit and should be groomed, but that most seem required to wear make up and heels is awful to me.
Anon
The US airlines have mostly done away with the appearance requirements. I think it’s something basic like “neat and orderly appearance” or something vague. Shoes were your own choice even in the ’90s, and many women wore heels through the terminal and flats for beverage service.
When my mom first started in the ’60s, she was weighed before every flight and could be taken off a trip if she had gained more than 2 lbs, I think. Now the only requirement re: weight is that you fit through the smallest emergency exit on the aircraft you’re qualified on.
Anon
(Re: shoes – I have vivid memories of going shopping with mom at Dillard’s and looking for the right shade of shoes to go with her uniform. When I was young in the ’80s, the airlines still had seasonal uniforms, and we had to find the right shade of burgundy to go with her tan-with-burgundy-accents summer uniform, navy for the winter uniform, and black for snow boots. We hope you enjoyed your flight today on Memory Air. Buh-bye! Thank you! Buh-bye!)
Curious
Anon thank you for sharing all of this; it’s fascinating.
Anon
My mom wanted to be a flight attendant more than anything in the world. She was 5’9 and 135 lb. They told her she’d need to lose 10 lb to even apply for the job.
Gail the Goldfish
Yes, this is absolutely nuts to me and was shocked when I learned it as to why anyone would become a flight attendant.
Anon 2.0
It is bonkers! If you want to go down a fun rabbit hole and waste a few hours, check out some of the flight attendant Youtube channels. I have zero desire to ever be a flight attendant but I find the channels fascinating! When you first start out you are on call – you go sit at the airport and have no idea if you will need to work a flight or where you are going. How do you pack for that? Even with a uniform, if you may fly to Montana or you may fly to Miami you don’t even know if you need a coat!
anon8
I also find the flight attendant YouTube channels interesting! I follow Fly With Stella, Kat Nesbitt, Wonderfully Ale, Kacey Cassady and Hunter Lihas. Sometimes they get to go on cool layovers, but it’s never a career I would chose.
Anonymous
In the U.K. tipping isn’t the same as other places but I’d usually tip a taxi driver, my hairdresser and food service. My haircut costs £42 and I’ve always tipped her £5. She’s now opened up her own small salon and so do I still tip? I’ve gone to the same person for years and she’s the only person in the salon so does everything from reception to also the hair washing herself. I’d be quite happy to tip her still but is it rude now it’s her own business?
Anonymous
It’s not rude
Ribena
My hairdresser (U.K.) doesn’t have a tip jar or an option on her card machine to give a tip! So I assume not tipping is fine
Cb
Yeah, I go to a Toni and Guy and the hairdresser seemed surprised when I gave her £10 when I last got my haircut.
Anonymous
Sali Hughes covers UK hair salon tipping in one of her books, and specifically states that:
When the therapist is the salon owner, “I would never tip unless they are running a tiny enterprise.”
This sounds like a tiny enterprise, so tip! :)
Anon
Any tips on managing with return to work from mat leave? FTM here and WFH. DH takes care of baby at home. I run to them every time I hear baby cry. Working at office hard since I’m still nursing and unable to pump enough. Formula is option, but I’m just not ready yet.. but maybe I need to be. ..
At work, I feel like unmotivated failure. I need to rebuild most of my book (long story) and finding it hard to find time and drive to compete with the other partners for new work. I’m exhausted most of the time and there never seems to be enough time for anything.
Does it get better? I know I need to make some changes, but just don’t know where to start,
Anonymous
You can’t be at work and still nursing. It gets better for sure! But if you can’t pump enough now, then yes formula.
Anon
I disagree that “you can’t be at work and still nursing.” I worked from home and nursed when I had an infant. It sounds like OP is struggling so it might be easier for her mental health and productivity to cut that cord and use formula. But it is definitely possible to work from home and nurse an infant a few times during the day. It doesn’t take any longer than pumping.
Anon
What? I pumped for 10 months and managed to work full time. Guess I’d better tell my kids they weren’t fed.
To OP, if you’re really wanting to increase production before resorting to formula (though there’s no shame in that!), feed on demand. Try to completely drain one side before switching to the other, if at all. I alternated breasts for feedings, as in just one breast per feeding, so it was easy to tell which one was ready for the next feeding!
When I was pumping and working full time at the office once I went back to work, I really devoted a lot of time on the weekends to having the baby at the breast – no bottles on the weekend – so that my supply would get re-stimulated.
I found the advice from lactation consultants and books too strict and anxiety-provoking – all it did was make me feel like I was doing everything wrong – and the best advice I got was from other moms, like the feed from one breast per feeding, which worked like a charm for me.
Anon
I nursed for 14 months while WFH. I had nanny give baby a bottle when I decided to keep focusing on my work at that particular moment, but I nursed whenever I could (I’d much rather nurse than pump!).
I nursed during calls when nanny was off.
You can be a mom and a fantastic employee, and sometimes, you have to be both in the same moment. It is life.
Anon
I am so confused. I thought FTM was female to male.
Cornellian
also first time mom
Anon
Oh that explains a lot!
Anon
“First time mom” on moms boards.
Hi
This was me in 2021. It gets so much better I promise. It doesn’t feel like it when you’re in the midst, but this time will fly by and all of the sudden it’s behind you. Formula is perfectly fine, don’t kill your self nursing and pumping if it’s not working. Lean out at work if that’s what you want, you are still postpartum. Life is long and there will be plenty time to focus on career later. Take one day at a time.
anonshmanon
Just know that you are not alone. All my mom friends told me it was their unavoidable instinctual response to come when baby cries, regardless of how much they rationally knew that dad could handle it. They all said that returning to the office was crucial for engaging productively at work.
Curious
That sounds really hard. On top of the suggestions above, have you been screened for PPD/PPA? It’s so hard to not run to baby when they cry, but learning to trust other caregivers is key, and will be easier if any mental health concerns are being addressed. Re:breastfeeding — if you are scared about formula, know that you can combo feed. And it could be great for baby! Anecdotally, my baby went from 50th percentile height and weight to 90th once I weaned her to formula with 3 oz pumped breastmilk a day. We had to wean because of chemo, and I’d love to have preserved more feeds, but I don’t think she was ever quite getting enough at the breast. Formula made her a happy healthy kid.
Anonymous
Sending kind thoughts. Just know that there will never be an reason good enough for the judgey mcjudgersons to stop insisting you’re a bad mom for not bre@stfeeding. You could have a mastectomy and someone would say they managed to nurse triplets exclusively after one. The question is what is best for your family overall including your happiness and mental health, not what is technically possible. Speaking as an exclusive formula mom twice times over my kids are healthier happier and love me more than any of the mean judgey folks want to admit.
Obviously formula won’t solve all of your problems but if it’s a piece of the puzzle that helps, its absolutely an option. And yes…it gets easier.
Anon
Random Q for UK people. I am fresh off a marathon of The Tudors. Are any of these families still around (Brandons, Howards, etc.)? Or has everyone died out? Also, due to the Bath Qs, googling was surprisingly fascinating for the prior Marquess (right title?) of Bath. That was a ride.
Anonymous
Oh yeah the marquess of bath who recently died is a trip! There are still Howard’s around for sure
Anon
Do the Howards go about plotting re marrying off their daughters or are they just ordinary accountants and teachers and such? We really don’t have this sort of historical intrigue here.
Anonymous
Lol no. Google Earl of Arundel.
Anon
There are plenty of aristocratic families left. Lots of dukes, earls, etc.
Anon100
Following with great interest! I think there are still descendants through some of the daughters but don’t know if there are still any male Howards or Brandons. I was looking up another noble family (don’t recall which one tho) from the 1700s-modern day once and managed to trace back thru the mother’s line to the 1500s.
Anon
Also, can someone explain UK hyphenated names? In the US, typically a woman hyphenates when she gets married (and generally isn’t the surname of children). In the UK, it looks like the hyphenated name is the surname, as it continues from generation to generation (so how do you pick which names are in the hyphenate?). I’ve also seen a three-way hyphenated last name and I had some questions but it seemed like there would be a story there (also: how do you monogram or initial documents?).
Ribena
I went to a friend’s graduation at Oxford and one of the other graduands had a three-name-hyphenated surname where two of the three were the same one repeated twice?!?! Apparently a very famous very posh aristocratic family that I just hadn’t heard of
Cb
Haha, my PhD graduation was like this! Sophia Howard Bancroft Durell…
Cb
I taught at an ancient uni, in a decently ‘posh’ field and the names…. one of my colleagues’ taught had a minor royal in tutorials. Now in Northern Ireland, the names just tell me Protestant and Catholic.
My husband and I are not at all posh and we combined our surname (think Black Fox) and I wish we had added a hyphen for ease.
Anon
I’m a Howard descendant, although living in the US. The direct line Howards are the Dukes of Norfolk, which is the oldest dukedom in England, so they are still Very Fancy. My family were fancy for many generations after coming to the US in the 1700s, but now we’re just normal people.
Anonymous
Oh wow, that’s so cool that you can trace your family back that far!
Anon
I never knew the Tudors were so gym-fit and had so much hot seccs before watching that show!
Anon
I always compared photos of Jonathan Rhys-Meyers to the portraits of Henry VIII and was like…uh…how did this casting decision get made? Not that I was complaining, LOL
Anonymous
Henry VIII was very handsome, fit, and athletic in his youth. He got fat after a bad fall from a horse left him with chronic pain. It’s also proposed by some that he may also have had personality changes from a head injury from the fall.
Anon
Thanks for the history lesson LOL
Anon
Hi ladies! Any advice for a first-time home buyer? I’ve been renting a condo for the last 3 years or so, and my landlord has offered to sell to me for a pretty good deal, especially considering the location. I want to make sure I don’t miss anything. Thank you!
Anon
Get a home inspection; get the condo documents and READ them; ask to see what the condo current financials are (LL should have them) and if any big assessments are coming due (new roof? Florida coastal level drama with recertifications)? What are the condo fees (as well as real estate taxes)?
Jolene
To add to this, don’t just get a home inspection – hire your own independent home inspector (use Yelp and find someone with good reviews) rather than going with a recommendation from your realtor. We got burned using our realtor’s suggested inspector who, we found out years later, “missed” numerous serious code violations on the inspections, we suspect in order to just get the deal done.
Anon
Take time this weekend to make sure you have/can access all your financial documents & accounts, and can explain any recent large deposits or withdrawals. Talk to a few possible lenders. Assuming you’ve got excellent credit, a 20% down payment and you’re not dealing the actual shopping for a house part of it, it’s a pretty straightforward process with a lot of hurry up and wait while the lender does their underwriting.
Anon
That’s an amazing way to buy a home! You already know so much more than you ever would via the traditional process because you live there. You know the quirks, the neighbors, etc. I would personally move very quickly.
Anon
This. I’m in exactly the same situation re: renting a condo for several years and would be thrilled if this was an option for us because I know exactly what the issues are with this place and it’s pretty much impossible to buy anything in my area now without waiving inspection and making an offer the day it goes on sale (for nearly double the prices of two years ago).
anon
Don’t? Haha. Only partly kidding. I am on house no. 2 and every time something breaks or I have to call my contractor (I have no interest in being handy) I question my decision.
The real advice post close: find a good contractor and build a relationship with them. They know the good plumbers, electricians, etc. Get all the insurance that is applicable for your property (I thought I added sewer line and didn’t and ended up paying $12k for that).
Peloton
Since you won’t have a real estate agent, I’d find someone who understands real estate well to advise you. I personally would use a lawyer, but a family friend who owns multiple properties or works in real estate may work in a pinch. Understand what you’re agreeing to and waiving, especially since you’re buying a condo.
Career Advice
I am a partner at a large law firm and have been increasingly unhappy for the last 1.5 years. I’m not sure how much of my issues are related to burnout vs just not being a good fit (or both). Let’s just say my practice group has very interesting and rewarding substantive work, but is completely dysfunctional in developing talent (think not giving opportunities for owning a project, partners are either extreme of micromanaging/hoarding work or completely not engaging and leaving you hanging). I’m an income partner so I rely on other partners for work and also am trying to build my own book of business. Long story short, I just don’t see myself able to progress my development in this group.
I just got tapped to interview for a senior leadership legal role in house for a client of my prior law firm. This is the type of role I’ve always envisioned as an off-ramp from law firm. It’s a very unique opportunity, in my city, sounds like a great leadership role. Substantively it all sounds great, and I am increasingly desperate for a change. I doubt I could easily find a similar opportunity in my city.
My hang up is the culture at the new place seems to be polar opposite in terms of flexibility as my current firm. My saving grace in the pandemic has been that the partners at my firm (for better and for worse) don’t engage much and don’t care when or where I work as long as I’m responsive and getting my work done and meeting my hours. On the one hand, I feel isolated and crave more interaction. On the other hand, I’ve gotten used to complete autonomy to manage my schedule, which has been wonderful as I have elementary aged kids and highly value ability to pivot between home and work responsibilities as needed.
New place seems to have a very conservative/old school culture. They are “allowing” hybrid (3 days in the office) but sounds like this was reached a bit grudgingly and also people have indicated that in-person/face time/lots of meetings are the norm. Add to that my commute would change significantly for the worse. Right now, my commute is 1.5 miles (walk or public transportation) – amazing and my favorite part of the day. New place is a 15 mile drive on highway (20-25 minutes no traffic) but based on route and traffic patterns/congestion will more likely be 40-50 minutes, often in gridlock. This sounds awful to me.
I feel like new place would be a huge improvement in terms of job satisfaction but downgrade in lifestyle. Not sure whether the trade off is worth it. We haven’t talked numbers yet, but I’m guessing my comp would be higher in new role. I’ve always highly valued lifestyle over $$ and prestige but the flexibility in my current role is being offset by my constant state of frustration with my work (lack of ownership is really demoralizing me) and isolation. Seems like new job would “fix” these issues at the cost of flexibility. WWYD??
Anon
I am really picky about whether anything is worth a lifestyle change that’s not clearly an improvement. 2 middle school kids (one special needs), so autonomy and flexibility are key to pulling this off.
At your firm, what is the ceiling like? Like are the equity partners nearing 60 and you are their offramp plan? Or are there like 5 income partners all gunners who are senior to you?
FWIW, I have not been a go-getter and just take who goes up with work (but don’t go seeking it except a few times when things were OMG slow). I am not a smashing success compared to what I could have been, but it’s let me make it as sort of a medium-successful least of the equity partners, which I am OK with.
Career Advice
OP here. I am the only income partner. I was ostensibly hired to be the successor to an equity partner with a large book who is in his/her early 60s. In the 3 years I’ve been here, this partner has not introduced me to any of his/her clients and hoards work, bills 2,600-3,000 hours per year. I have repeatedly asked for more client contact and ownership responsibilities and despite agreeing to do so, continues to fail to follow through. I can’t see this partner ever retiring by choice. There are 2 other equity partners, one similar in age to me so no succession options there, and one mid-50s with a work style that is all over the place and that I’d like to avoid. I am pretty certain that I am at a dead end re development and need to move.
AFT
Oof, reading this, you need to get out now.
Anon
Any chance that any of the lack of contact is due to the pandemic? Do you directly call and/or e-mail clients? I would think so at your level. People are still weird about meeting though (not in my city, but if I traveled by plane I suspect people would avoid meeting or I’d need a car to navigate suburbia in places I’m unfamiliar with).
Anonymous
Personally I feel like what is the point of job satisfaction without lifestyle satisfaction? Lifestyle >>>>> job, IMO. I would hold out for a better opportunity that offers the flexibility and autonomy you need.
Career Advice
OP – I generally agree, but I’m finding that being unhappy/frustrated/unmotivated all day long IS part of lifestyle and is spilling into my personal life. If I’m spending the bulk of my days at work, that is not the quality of life I’m looking for, even though I have flexibility and autonomy.
Anonymous
My company just announced that we are going to mandatory 3days in office (when most of us were remote pre pandemic). I am looking for a new job. Don’t downplay the flexibility.
Jolene
Have you ever had a 40-50 minute commute before? It is soul-sucking, at least I found it to be so. It honestly degrades your quality of life so much. It’s not just the time in the car (though that sucks), it’s the ability to quickly run home if you need something, or the severity of forgetting something at home. The ability to run home midday to meet a contractor. Little things like that really add up over time.
It’s easy to take things like flexibility for granted when you have them. It can be very frustrating and infantilizing to work somewhere with strict face time requirements, especially as a seasoned attorney, when you’re left feeling like you’re not trusted as a professional to make your own judgments about how best to serve your clients.
My vote is to keep looking for a great in house role, but really look! It’s not clear from your post how active your search has been. Also, have you considered other law firms? The market is red-hot right now for hiring, so hopefully you can find something that’s a great fit.
Anon
Hahha I don’t think a 40-50 minute commute is a long commute for those of us in urban areas. If I could do door to door in 40-50 minutes I’d count that as a short commute here in the Bay Area.
Anon
Do you have kids? It gets to be a supreme challenge if you factor in things like orthodontist (which is frequent and then they break a wire or something shifts and you go in at least monthly). In the wrong setup, that could easily eat half a day’s worth of time, even if it’s all flexible and no one is screaming.
Anon
Yes SOMEHOW I managed to raise two kids to college age with a very typical 40-50 minute commute. As do most of my fellow urban workers.
Jolene
It’s a lot longer than a pleasant mile and a half walk. Obviously many people survive with a 40-50 minute commute. The OP is asking whether she should affirmatively choose it and specifically said it sounded “awful” to her.
Anon
Same here, I’m jaw dropped at the idea of 40-50 minutes being an issue or a lifestyle problem! Girl, you pop on a podcast, get a coffee, call a friend and you’re there in no time. Also 3 days a week in is fine, that’s good for being in-house counsel where it really helps to know the day to day inner workings.
Anon
I was in a very similar situation. I jumped from a high level in house counsel role to a GC position. Former employer was extremely flexible, current employer was…not. Current employer can be very old school, prizes face time, did not have ANY flexibility when I started (now on a hybrid schedule), etc. And they really emphasized this during the interview process because they wanted to be clear about their company culture.
I was terrified of the flexibility that I was giving up, but I’m glad I did. When you are in a senior leadership role, you have the ability to influence change and you have way more autonomy than the average employee. For the first year, I did not have any flexbility but I performed well. After that, they trusted me, and I delivered, so nobody was watching my coming and going. Now I’m on year 4 and feel like I have plenty of flexibility to make my life work. Some I do under the radar, but I continue to loudly and proudly advocate behind closed doors for more flexibility. I know that some of our employees appreciate it because those opinions were not represented in the leadership team before I came along.
All this to say …. this stuff is fluid, things can change, you are likely entering a position where you can effect that change.
Bewitched
I agree with this. I work inhouse at an old school, face time employer as well, but have built serious credibility and therefore have support for the flexibility I need. Your current job sounds soul sucking and I would get out even if the commute stinks. Is your husband closer and willing to handle some of the day to day? Also, keep in mind that a commute is sometimes good decompression time, and you may also be able to take calls during the commute or leave earlier or later to avoid some of the travel time.
Anonymous
Schedule the interview. Try the drive a few times next week. (Since you’re flexible now). Do the interview. Then you can always say TBNT before the offer. If you do that, use your brushed up resume to start looking now for other opportunities, since you don’t like where you are.
AFT
oh man, i feel like you are being recruited to work at my soon-to-be-former employer, which was my first in-house gig. I had similar reservations about the fit, but the folks I worked closely with were generally good people who I got along with well. They are currently doing the begrudgingly-3-days-in-the-office thing (but higher ups are subtly assert pressure, and a lot of people are theoretically 3 days but realistically 2ish… so take from that what you will).
This sounds like it may be a good-for-now-not-forever option for you, even if it doesn’t check all your boxes. If you don’t see yourself staying forever at the firm, then you probably will want to look for your next step and recognize it may not be a perfect fit. Maybe consider if this is a good launch paid for your next in-house job in a few years? At least on paper, these seems like a really good position that won’t come along again soon if ever.
I am leaving to go to a more progressive and less old-school company after a few years here, and I do think being already inhouse (and getting good experience there) helped me get it.
Anon
Just remember that this other job and your current job are not your only two options. Sounds like you should keep looking!
Betsy
Sometimes it feels like there are only two choices when there are actually many! Clearly this has helped you realize it is time to start actively looking for a new job because your current job isn’t the right fit. This potential position has helped you think about what you would/would not like in your next position, and that is valuable, but it doesn’t sound like it’s actually the right fit. Take what you’ve learned and apply it towards starting a serious job search to find the position that actually has the right balance that you are looking for.
Celia
Do the in office days have to match 9-5 hours? I have started leaving the office around 3 and logging back on from home so that my commute is 20 instead of 45 minutes. That may not be something you can do from day 1, but perhaps something you can gradually implement if people know you’re still going to be available to the end of the work day. A lot of attorneys I know do the reverse – they log on and do an hour or 2 of work from home and then get into the office around 10. Like that the morning commute is a breeze. There are also ways to significantly improve your commute – I actually missed mine during early Covid because it’s my time alone each day to sip coffee (morning) or tea (drive home) while listening to an audiobook or podcast. I “read” so much on days I commute and it’s pretty nice.
Facelift $50,000
I missed yesterday’s thread about facelifts. Dr. Andrew Jacono charges $50,000 for a facelift and other doctors in NY and CA charge high (but not that high) prices. The last couple of years prices have increased due to increased demand – the result of everyone looking at their face all day on Zoom.
Anon
The old trick is just to put sheer panty hose over the lens for a soft-focus filter.
Anne-on
I lurked on ‘the beauty broker’ instagram and the rates she was quoting were fully insane – she was hinting (but did not outright name names) that Andrew Jacono and those ‘Botched’ surgeons were charging up to $75k and doing crummy jobs. She also went off on how instagram dermatologists (PillowTalk derm, Laura Devagam) were charging in the tens of thousands for laser+threads+filler work and that it would be cheaper and more effective to just get a facelift! The instagram famous people jacked their rates up to a downpayment on a house.
Basically my instagram is dedicated to skincare, makeup, and perfume and I am here for the tea on the ‘big’ companies/doctors/content creators peddling second rate products at inflated prices.
Anon
I’m not an IG user but I researched Jacono and was very turned off by his website. Him on a magazine cover and Real Housewives references all over the homepage–no thanks. It was very much style over substance, in a sleazy name-dropping way.
With black?
I would not pair this with all black…I think I would do white, cream, maybe gray.
Anon
I agree. Black cheapens colors. This would look so much better with navy.
Anon
Oh I didn’t think about navy, but that would look great too!
Anon
Any recs for mallorca? We’re going the first week of July and we have a little kid. We’re planning to split our time between Palma and Pollenca (4 nights in each) so we can hopefully cover the whole island well without having to do a ton of driving. We will have a rental car most of the time (planning one day in Palma without the car).
Anon
Question for those of you in biglaw/big4/professional services. My husband is a manager in big4, his work hours are not concentrated to normal office hours but are spread out in a way that means he’s either sleeping, eating, or working, regardless of day or time. Weekends are a little better. He treats every email and phone call as if it’s an emergency- everything has to be handled ASAP. We are late everywhere we go because he has to shoot off some emails before we walk out the door, shoot off some emails before he starts the car,etc. He reads and responds to emails while stopped at red lights, often getting honked at when the light turns green. He emails while he’s walking and not paying attention to his surroundings. He gets visibly frustrated and stressed every day, which is exacerbated by the multitasking and gets really gruff with me, responding to everything I say like I’m interrupting him, which I am I guess. I tell him several times a day to calm down, relax, the world isn’t ending. We are having a baby in a few months and I am worried he won’t be present with our child. We had a talk about it yesterday and his position is this is 100% necessary, he doesn’t feel like he can handle his work any other way. I just done understand why some things can’t wait 20 minutes or an hour. I don’t get the impression others in his group are doing this. I’m actually not sure what my question even is, I guess I’m wondering if this is normal? Is he exaggerating? I think he could use some therapy to help manage his anxiety and form a healthier relationship with his job, but he says he doesn’t have time and is not interested.
Anon
I think it’s normal for his profession, but I would not to be married or have a child with someone who has this kind of career, because he won’t be an equal parent or partner. Why didn’t you talk this through better before getting pregnant? Once you have a child with someone you’re kind of tied to them for life.
Cb
Eeks, the horse is out of the barn. I realise this is a serious situation, but let’s not shame the OP.
A few things:
1. I don’t think he’ll naturally change when the baby is born and things that annoy you pre-baby will be intolerable when you’re sleep-deprived.
2. I think you need to have a brutally honest conversation, maybe mediated by a counsellor or a trusted figure. This is absolutely untenable. Before going into it, decide what your deal breakers are. Are you ok with a partner/father who is fully checked out but provides a comfortable existence?
3. Think about the resources you need in place to support you – a parent who can come and stay, a night nanny, live in care, and make it happen.
Senior Attorney
Yes, if he has that much of a Big Career, he should be willing and able to pay to buy himself out of his parental responsibilities. Also, gently, I would suggest negotiating a post-nup to make sure you and the baby are provided for if/when this situation becomes completely untenable and the marriage goes by the wayside.
anon
What would motivate him to sign a postnup at this point? It sounds like the relationship has already deteriorated to the point that asking for one will tell him it’s time to lawyer-up.
Senior Attorney
Good point, although maybe, just maybe, he’s a decent guy who wants to do the right thing and is willing to provide a fair deal out of guilt or whatever. Anyway you can’t get one unless you ask, and if he says no then that’s interesting information.
Jolene
Gently, it kind of doesn’t matter what is normal or necessary – this is how your husband is actively choosing to be, even after you’ve raised concerns about it. But FWIW, I was in BigLaw, and I am a firm believer that every person has to set their own boundaries around work. Certainly partners and clients will always welcome a faster response, but part of professional judgment is understanding which things are truly emergencies and which things can wait. Or deciding that your personal life is more important than some irritation you might encounter by not being immediately available. Yes, it is reasonable to put your phone away for an hour to have dinner. Yes, it is reasonable to take 15 minutes to get in the car, drive somewhere, and get out of the car, without checking email. But you know this. I’m not sure what the answer is.
Cb
And get good insurance for when his negligent driving hurts someone!
AFT
Ditto this. Are there partners in biglaw/big4 like this? yes.
Are they all like this? no.
Is your husband going to change his behavior if he stays in the role? probably not.
London (formerly NY) CPA
I’m a senior manager at a Big 4 and disagree with him. There are definitely times when things are urgent, but it’s not all the time. Most things can wait an hour or two. Answering emails while waiting at a light is insane unless it’s the day before your client is filing or something in which case you should be in front of your laptop all day anyways.
I do get visibly frustrated and tired sometimes, so I get it, but it definitely sounds like he needs to work on his anxiety. If he broke his leg or something, wouldn’t he see PT appointments as medically necessary and make them work? I sure would (and have), and I view (mental) therapy appointments the same way. I know the anxiety about not having time for it, but it was a great decision for me to make the time. I was able to find a place 1 block down from my office, so that made it loads easier to pop out for a quick appointment and be back within the hour. Now is probably the best possible time to start because you’re through the hardest part of the year and if he could get in once or twice a week for the next 6 months, he’d be in a much better position going into next busy season.
Most (all?) of the Big 4 have very good parental leave policies. Make sure he actually is using what he’s allowed and doesn’t short change himself time to be together with your family. That time away may help him reset a bit and maybe give extra time to work on himself and his anxiety?
Hugs to you. Living the Big 4 lifestyle is hard (and you dont even get Big Law salary levels to compensate)!
Cornellian
+1 to parental leave. I loved when BigLaw dad colleagues took the full time allowed. I think at Deloitte it’s up to three months now, but I may be out of date.
It shouldn’t be just your career taking the hit. Having a dad home as full-tiem caretaker, even if only for a month, is SO CRUCIAL to having them be active partners and you not be set as the default and mommy tracked for the rest of your life.
Another Anon
Deloitte SM here, parental leave is 16 weeks. Everyone I know, men and women, takes the full time.
Anonymous
Get a divorce. He could change. He’s not interested. He’s going to wind up crashing.
Anon
Well that’s kind of a leap. I suspect this is more about you than it is about OP.
Anon
Not 12:05 but I had the same reaction and I’m happily married to a man with a much more sane work-life balance. I don’t think he’s incapable of changing, but from the OP it sure sounds like he’s unwilling to change and I wouldn’t want to stay married to a man who’s behaving this way and not showing any interest in making any changes. This sounds like a truly horrible way to live, especially once a child is in the mix.
Anon
I’m kinda with you here. He could change, he probably doesn’t want to.
No Face
Has he explored whether he has an issue with anxiety? Everything is not an emergency and he is not managing his time or energy well.
This is also an important topic for marriage counseling. Is he an adequate husband to you like this? Would you consider him an adequate father like this? Babies actually need things very urgently, and it sounds like he couldn’t manage that.
Anon
Does he have ADHD? (This sounds so much like unmedicated ADHD coping mechanisms to me.)
Cornellian
Around the clock availability is pretty normal (at least in my BigLaw experience), but very little has to be responded to immediately, especially once he has a couple years under his belt. I think you can’t get rid of the “around the clock” without changing jobs, but he can stop treating everything as a fire drill and get treatment for his anxiety.
You do NOT want to have a child with this person. Something needs to change ASAP or you’ll end up a single parent very quickly, honestly. Tell him to get a new job. Switch to 80%. Start meds or therapy.
Anon
Regarding the single parent comment, that’s why I ended things with an ex. He was too devoted to his job and traveling for work. I knew I would essentially be a single mom. I think once the baby comes and he sees how he’s missing out on your child’s life, hopefully he will come around. No career is worth your life, figuratively and literally.
Anon
“I think once the baby comes and he sees how he’s missing out on your child’s life, hopefully he will come around.”
This doesn’t happen. Babies don’t fix people.
Anon
Yeah, the baby will make this problem much worse, not better.
Peloton
Ex-big law. I want to key in on two sentences in here:
> I just done understand why some things can’t wait 20 minutes or an hour.
This is the most important sentence in your entire post, because it’s the only sentence that is about *you* and *your* behavior. It is the only sentence you can control. You need to understand why he is embracing this job and this approach to it. I’m not saying you need to accept it. I’m saying you need to start from a place of understanding it. Does he love the rush? Does he think you all need the money? Does he value the work? What is driving his strategy here?
If he hates the work but thinks you need the money, that’s one set of problems to work through. If he loves the work but is stressed in this specific role, that’s a different set of problems to work through. If he loves the rush, that’s a different set of problems to work through. All of these problems are supremely navigable, but you need to know which one you are tackling before you can approach them. I can’t tell from your post, and I don’t think you can tell, either. You only describe behaviors, not motivations. Understanding the root motivation will serve you a thousand times better than understanding the behaviors.
> I tell him several times a day to calm down, relax, the world isn’t ending.
Stop doing this. You are losing credibility every time you do. No woman has ever felt better after a man told her to calm down; the inverse is also true. You cannot invalidate your spouse’s feelings and expect to have them become more vulnerable with you. Say it to a personal therapist, often. Say it here, as much as you want. You’re pregnant, you’re stressed, I get it. But you are drawing down the bank account every time you do this; it is not going to lead to the results you want.
Anonymous
Really great post. “Calm down” rubbed me the wrong way too. OP is creating a bigger divide every time she says this, I can just hear his internal monologue: You just don’t get me. You don’t care to get me. You don’t know what you’re talking about.
Cat
Yes- this behavior def isn’t normal, but I have never seen the message “calm down” go over well or with the intended result.
Anon
I worked for a company where this kind of immediacy was the culture. It just seemed normal to me after a while because everyone did it.
I changed companies and the immediacy culture wasn’t there, but there were other issues with the new company… so basically there is no perfect place to work!!!
Senior Attorney
Alas, it seems that you are in Number Three territory. Three types of undesirable traits in partners:
1. Dealbreakers — you can’t live with it and you’re gonna leave over it
2. Price of admission — you don’t love it but you can live with it
3. Things he’s doing now. and that you’ve told him you don’t like, but you just KNOW that if you can explain often enough, or well enough, or loudly enough, or with enough tears, or with the help of a therapist, he will stop doing.
Spoiler alert: There is no number three.
He’s told you he’s not interested in changing (so of course he won’t be present for the baby or any of the parenting), so you need to decide if this is a dealbreaker or a price of admission you’re willing to pay.
Anon
Yep, this.
anon
Yep. Absolutely this. Go read the mom’s page for an honest take on life with a baby/kids. I’m sorry, but he’s not going to change and adding a baby to the mix isn’t going to help.
Anon
So while I agree with you in theory, it sounds like the baby is well on the way to being here in just a few months. She needs coping skill advice, not suggestions that she shouldn’t have the baby or shouldn’t have gotten pregnant.
Anonymous
Well…might there 3(b)- he gets a new job?
My husband was like OP’s husband but completely changed with a new job.
Now if he doesn’t want to consider a new job, then yeah, no #3.
Anon
But she said he doesn’t want to get a new job, so it’s definitely SA’s category 3. If he was miserable at work and actively job-searching, it would be a different story. Then I would say it’s category #4: Things that are largely out of a person’s control.
Anon
My husband got a new job and a CPAP machine, and the transformation was incredible. Now the new job is understaffed and the hours are getting long again, but it’s not like it was before. He’s really glad he changed jobs too, but I’m not sure he would have if we hadn’t fought over it; it was like an abusive relationship that people don’t have perspective on until they’ve escaped.
Aunt Jamesina
I’m sorry, that had to be so frustrating! I had similar patterns to your husband when I had very bad anxiety. It was a vicious cycle, because the more I worked around the clock, the more anxious I would get and the more I would be convinced that the only solution was to work “harder” (but really I was just working more and my work quality was suffering). The solution for me was meds with therapy and changing jobs to get away from an awful boss.
Obviously you can’t make your husband change his patterns, but I think a serious talk about what boundaries he will set once baby is here plus some couple’s therapy would be helpful. Individual therapy for him would probably be very beneficial, but I know it’s next to impossible to convince someone to do that when they don’t think they have a problem.
Anon
Senior Manager/Engagement Manager at MBB here. He definitely doesn’t need to be this extreme but there are people who do all of this. He100% should not be doing email while driving, and if my spouse did that, I would absolutely not let them drive my baby anywhere. I have no push notifications from my work email, on weekdays if I am not busy (ie working late into the evening) I usually check email every ~2 hours and first thing when I wake up. Sometimes but not often there is something I need to respond to. Very rarely there is something that causes me to go back to work for a few hours. On weekends I check email 2x a day (unless I know for a fact something is coming): around noon and around 7, and am prepared to work if needed for several hours, which happens very very very infrequently.
All that said, yes often I’m working through / after dinner and until midnight or later. On those nights, I get incredibly frustrated if my spouse keeps interrupting my work to chat or tell me to do my job differently.
Is he in a promotion window? Does he like the job? At stressful times in my career I’ve interviewed for other positions and knowing that I can get other job offers/interview invites has been sufficiently reassuring that it has allowed me to chill out at my stressful job a little bit.
One other thought: my husband who also has an all-consuming career said he was going to change when the baby came, and he did overnight. It’s not impossible – he couldn’t conceptualize his feelings or priorities until he was holding the baby.
anonchicago
I agree with all of this, as a former M in Big 4 strategy. I would add, at your husband’s level, he’s likely getting the response pressure from a partner or similar. Some partners have good balance, but most don’t. Working till midnight for months on end, including canceling all weekend plans and spending a Saturday night turning around a deck for a partner was the wake up call I needed to get out.
Anon
I am a Manager in Big 4 (consulting, not audit) and can say that this is very much not normal. For added context, I am currently staffed on an account that is notorious for ridiculous workload and schedules, to the point that staff are generally coached to take short-term “easy” assignments between projects just to get a breather. I won’t deny that from time to time, it is an extremely demanding job – I routinely work long days, often have to monitor my email during off hours, and occasionally have to work a full weekend. In crunch periods – I’m talking a couple of weeks at a time, max – it really CAN be that intense that I need to be checking my phone/responding to emails constantly. Generally speaking though, that is not the case.
One important thing is that it sounds like your husband has zero work/life boundaries. When I have set and enforced boundaries, Directors/Partners have been very supportive. The major one for me has been keeping my work phone and personal phone separate, and communicating to my leadership that I will not have my work phone with me after X time on weekdays or on weekends unless previously arranged. (A few key people do have my personal number in case of a genuine emergency.) Similarly, I block off time on my calendar for exercise, personal life commitments, etc., and that is always respected. Perhaps you and your husband could agree on some true blackout times for work, and he could communicate that to his Partner?
It sounds to me like your husband is creating an expectation with his Directors/Partner that he is always available, and maybe even lacking some understanding about what is truly a priority. A Senior Manager that I work closely with was recently in the same situation – they made themselves available 24/7, answered emails instantly, consistently volunteered to bite off more than they could really chew in terms of workload – and it got to the point that the person’s spouse had to demand that they set strict, reasonable working hours. When this change was communicated to the team, the Partner and Directors involved were not just supportive of this – their reactions could be described to a person as relieved and grateful. We all saw this person burning themself out and it was clearly headed for disaster. The person is now, IMO, more effective because they devote their time to tackling what truly matters and delegating the rest, instead of frantically flitting from shiny object to shiny object and never really being effective.
The one caveat to all of this is that your individual Big 4 experience is inextricably tied to your Partner. If your husband has a Partner with this work style, it might really be the expectation. That is a whole different problem. But first, I would focus on setting and enforcing boundaries and see if that changes things.
Anonymous
Focus on the things you can control. Do not let this man drive you anywhere. Leave without him if he is not ready on time and you truly can’t be late. Hire help around the house and for the baby. Lean on your support network. Stop telling him how to feel or that he’s doing his work wrong.
You had a direct conversation about why you are unhappy and what you would like to do about it (ie therapy). He is not interested in changing. There is nothing confusing about this situation. You have to decide if you can live with that answer.
InfiniteAnon
My husband was in the same boat, and we decided that having kids while he was at his big4 firm wasn’t going to work – our first is due later this year, and three years ago he moved to a smaller firm with much, much better work/life balance. He still has the occasional evening or a couple hours on the weekend, but not the constant “on call” mentality that he had previously – no more worry that because the partner was green on Slack at 10pm, he needed to be available, too.
Anon for this
How do I NOT write a letter of recommendation for someone? I have a paralegal who worked for me in BigLaw. He was good and worked hard, not a superstar, but definitely reliable and would probably do well as a lawyer. He was unhappy for mostly genuine reasons and I got him a job at a client. He and I never agreed politically, but he was good at his job, generally polite to coworkers and is well-liked at the client. He’s now asking for a law school rec letter hoping to get off of a waitlist at my alma mater. I’ve also since moved on from the law firm to public service.
I do not want to write this letter. He’s gone from conservative with some fringe views to more hateful/conspiracy theory stuff. An also conservative mutual friend mentioned he couldn’t do X some evening because he wanted to watch the inauguration of Biden and the conversation devolved in to said mutual being called a f@t n-word loving (six letter) f word. Our three mutual friends have cut him off and in one case out of their wedding. I had coffee with him last week and it wasn’t super pleasant. He hides the worst of his bad takes from me, but he clearly has fringe takes on lots of stuff and I don’t want to be associated with them. It seems like moving away from his friends and to a conservative client in a conservative area has sent him off the deep end in to slurs and worse.
What do I do?
Anon
Ignore the e-mail, delete the voicemail, whatever it is. Just don’t respond.
Peloton
Echoing “ignore.” If he asked you in person, you can say that you think too much time has passed for you to reasonably serve as a reference in this context, so you’d recommend he talk to someone he currently works with.
Anon
Depends on how much you want to invest in this. You ca ignore his request, you can politely tell him no, or you can (verbally, would not write) tell him why.
My suggested script for the latter: “When we worked together, you were a lovely person. You politics are your politics and I had no problem recommending you to a client. Now, however, that I have seen from you and what I’ve heard are not things that I can ” agree to disagree about.” I’m not able to risk my professional reputation on someone who uses the N word.”
Anonymous
Definitely would not do this. Just ignore.
Anon
Agreed!!
Anonymous
“I’m not comfortable doing that.” And then cut all ties.
No Face
Email or text to say that you won’t be able to write the recommendation, then don’t communicate with him anymore. Don’t try to justify or argue why. Just cut him off.
Anon
To play devil’s advocate, why not write the letter and be completely honest about his character? Include examples.
anon
I’m going to Wicked soon! What should I wear? It’s been a long time since I’ve done anything theater-related and I’m out of practice. Midwest, so people are generally not super dressed up, but I definitely want to do something nicer than jeans. Could be 50 degrees, could be 70. I have a couple of Boden day dresses but they don’t seem nice enough? I have a plethora of pretty tops and ankle pants, but that also doesn’t feel right.
Anon
I’ve gone to two shows (SIX and Moulin Rouge) in Chicago this month. Honestly, most people are in jeans. You’ll stand out if you wear anything dressier than business casual. I like getting dressed up for the theater, but it’s been so cold lately that I caved and wore (dressy, dark) jeans with a sparkly gold sweater and nice shoes to one of the shows, and I was definitely one of the more dressed up guests.
PolyD
Take this opportunity to wear whatever the heck you want! I love going to the theater these days because it’s one of my few chances to get all pretty and I really don’t care if I’m fancier than most of the people there (I’m in DC, but I know what you mean by dressing up standards in the Midwest).
My only parameters is that what I wear be comfortable for sitting, and also comfortable temperature-wise and easy to adjust, because I am 54 and my ability to regulate my own temperature has totally crapped out. So I usually wear a layer that can be easily removed.
In DC, a pretty top and ankle pants would be totally appropriate (we are fancier than the Midwest, but not as fancy as NYC) but if you have a dress you like, wear that! I guess I wouldn’t do a full on gown or cocktail dress, but, say, a nice Boden dress or similar would be good.
Cat
+1 to this, have attended shows recently in Philly and most people are in “nice jeans and a cute top” type of outfits. Layering is def key – theaters can run super hot thanks to the bright lights and mass of bodies.
Anon
I say screw what everybody else is wearing and get dressed up if you want to! I personally would choose one of the Boden dresses over pretty top + ankle pants because dresses feel more fancy to me.
Fallon
For those of you who are courageous enough to just…be yourself, how did you get there? Is that something you’ve always had, or did you develop it? If you developed it, how?
I am totally myself with my spouse, but no-one else. I came from a hyper-judgmental, weirdly distant family, and I’ve never been able to get past the “well, someone will be mean to you if you say that or are that” mental block. To give a bit of flavor, “we always worried that [sibling] would never lighten up and that [I] would never get serious” was my dad’s favorite joke as we exited college/grad school.
But I *was* serious in high school–president of multiple clubs, strong social life, really bad grades in classes I didn’t care about but pretty good grades in classes I liked, a near-perfect score on the SAT and ACT. I just was also SAed at 15, and the resulting trauma was massive–severe night terrors, self-harm, fear. I didn’t tell anyone what happened until I was in college. It was a miracle I survived, and I genuinely believe shutting down and handling it alone until I could get therapy on my own, hidden from everyone I knew, saved my life. My parents still have no idea, 20 years later.
(Even writing the two paragraphs above feels way too open to me. What if I am somehow identifiable, even though I’m using a throw-away email address and name? Do I need to fuzz the details? etc.)
I’m in a major shutdown period now around work. I do not like my job and I want to transition to something where I can be more myself, but I’m worried about the judgment and hurt that will follow. Ideally, I’d switch from a role where I am supposed to suppress my natural personality to a role where some interesting life experiences I’ve had can be part of what I do and how I help people. But the idea of a role that requires (in part) talking about myself, rather than just the work, is horrifying to me. Truly terrifying.
So: for those of you who just are yourselves, nakedly, in most settings, how? What makes you comfortable just being yourself? And for those of you who have had to transition from shutdown to transparency, how did you manage that transition without swinging all the way to overshare (like I now fear I’ve done in this post)?
Anonymous
I have been this way most of my life. there are still occasional events where I feel super out of place, or later wish I’d done something differently, but I am myself and I know that I am worth money, time, love, space regardless of whether others approve. I also know that I’m not a jerk, I’m generally a good person who sometimes makes mistakes. I have absolutely no way to identify you from this story, I know many people with your academic credentials across the US and unfortunately know many people who were SA’ed. I’m so glad you survived. I’m sorry you are in a job you don’t like. I used to work at a shelter for people who experienced major trauma and violence; I’m a lawyer in a totally different field now. I encourage you to consider volunteering – dip your toe in to an organization that showcases talking about one’s past experiences/self, but as a volunteer, you’ll be able to listen and support more than share. For me, hearing people talk and share **in a genuine way, not in a compare my trauma way** has made me more open to hearing stories and also sharing information about myself.
I have so much more I’d like to say to try to encourage you, internet stranger. I will stop my “I” sentences now, and simply conclude by saying you absolutely didn’t ‘out’ yourself here today, you can at anytime share more of your story as you become comfortable or feel the desire to do so even if not comfortable. If you’re a reader or listener of books we or your therapist may have some ideas, but no pressure. Hugs.
Anonymous
Therapy.
Anon
This.
anon
Came here to say exactly this.
Anon
So not the easiest solution for everyone to access, but I was part of a leadership development program at a previous employer where it was not surface-y “read this leadership book and let’s talk about it” stuff, but it went very deep into explorations of who we were as people, what were our values, how did we express those values in our life, etc. It was like group therapy at times; people would be crying working through some of the exercises. We were encouraged to work solo on worksheets that asked deep questions about our childhoods and personal lives and then we had the option to talk about things with a coach, if we wanted (I chose to). The program was strengths-focused, meaning, let’s identify your strengths and leverage them vs. trying to make you over into a different person. It was through that experience that I realized, I am who I am and I am not going to be everyone’s cup of tea. I might as well be myself and the people who can’t deal with it, that’s their problem, not mine. Since that experience, I have been able to really lean into making the choices I want and need to make for myself, vs. doing what other people expect of me (especially my parents) and taking more risks. The program I was in was customized for that organization I was in, but you might look and see if there are personal development programs out there that might fit the bill for you. Good luck.
annie mouse
Any chance you could share the facilitator and/or examples of the worksheets? This sounds amazing and different from all leader development/personal development trainings I’ve had in my career (which have run the gamut from – read this book & discuss, to let’s all sit in a circle and have inauthentic dialogue about “showing up as our authentic selves”). I’d like to DIY some reflectiveness.
Anon
You are confusing being yourself with oversharing. You can be your authentic self without spilling your guts about your personal traumas. Who you are includes how you act and react, what you like and dislike, and what you feel and how you feel it. It is not merely “all the bad stuff that’s ever happened to me”.
anon
Agree. I do not act the same around everyone. I have a work persona and social, making small talk persona. It’s possible to share bits of your life without sharing your entire life story.
Fallon
I’m not saying I want to talk about what happened to me in high school at work. Lord knows I do not. I provided that as context only. Probably shouldn’t have—thanks for the reminder.
I am saying I do not even share “bits of my life,” other than stuff I make up to make it sound like everything’s okay. I got in a pretty good car accident, and no one at work knew since it happened on a Friday so I didn’t have to miss work, and none of my injuries were visible on camera. I moved cities, and other than my boss and HR, I told no one in advance since we’re all remote anyway—who would care? We got a pet; I didn’t tell anyone, even friends, until they heard the pet in the background.
I think people think I am just very professional, but I am terribly lonely and cut off. The points above apply to both work and friends equally. There is no place where I feel worthy of taking up other people’s time and attention, or feel confident that I can do so without blowback.
I did a decade of therapy. It helped for a bit, but has not created lasting change, so I guess I don’t see the point of it.
Anon
Okay, that’s helpful additional info. I see where you’re coming from now. (I also agree that therapy isn’t necessarily useful–I got nothing out of it, though I know it’s trendy to push it on everyone.)
I’m very much a logical over emotion type of person, so in the specific cases you mention above, I would do a cost-benefit analysis of each topic. What are the pros and cons of telling X person about Y topic? How could them knowing that information affect me in the long-term? What can I expect if they want me to elaborate or if they continue to bring it up in the future? Walk through the scenarios.
Also consider mirroring. Be conscious about what people are sharing with you, and share to exactly their level. If they mention a pet, you mention a pet in return. Et cetera.
Anon
It seems like you’re conflating being your genuine self with opening up about your very personal experiences with every new person you meet. There’s a time and place. Everyone knows an over-sharer, and it’s a rare over-sharer that anyone wants to be around. Unless you decide to start your own talk show, I don’t think you’re going to find a way to work your personal trauma into every conversation, and that’s not what most of us think of as living authentically anyway.
Fallon
Replied with this above, but pasting it here too. I’m not saying I want to talk about what happened to me in high school at work. Lord knows I do not. I provided that as context only. Probably shouldn’t have—thanks for the reminder. Lesson fully relearned.
I am saying I do not even share “bits of my life,” other than stuff I make up to make it sound like everything’s okay. I got in a pretty good car accident, and no one at work knew since it happened on a Friday so I didn’t have to miss work, and none of my injuries were visible on camera. I moved cities, and other than my boss and HR, I told no one in advance since we’re all remote anyway—who would care? We got a pet; I didn’t tell anyone, even friends, until they heard the pet in the background.
I think people think I am just very professional, but I am terribly lonely and cut off. The points above apply to both work and friends equally. There is no place where I feel worthy of taking up other people’s time and attention, or feel confident that I can do so without blowback.
Anon
I get what you’re saying, OP. I think therapy is probably the right way to go here. I’m really sorry that you’re in this position, it sounds really painful and you definitely don’t deserve to feel that way.
Anon
Oh boy, reading this you definitely need therapy! Not telling friends you got a pet is unusual. Your friends are your friends for a reason, t hey want to hear about this stuff!
Betsy
I have done therapy several different times with several different therapists. Each time I get something different out of it, and depending on how well I click with the therapist sometimes I feel like I get more than others. I have also learned a little from what didn’t work with one therapist that has helped me get more out of the next. For example, I am a mega people pleaser and the last time I started therapy I talked to my therapist about that in the first session and explained that I would have a tendency to tell her that yes, all the exercises we were doing were great and helpful and I was all better – even when I wasn’t. I think you should try therapy again, and think about whether there are things from the last time you did therapy that you should tell a new therapist about so that they can be the most helpful. And don’t be afraid to meet with a few therapists until you find one that clicks!
Do you journal at all? I wonder if starting a regular journaling practice might help you get more in touch with your feelings and help you to “open up” even if it’s just to a blank page. It might be a good starting point to help bridge the gap to opening up to another person.
I also wonder if you are someone who might be encouraged/motivated by setting concrete goals. Like maybe going into the week you decide on one thing you did over the weekend that you want to tell at least one coworker about and then build up goals from there. I think in a lot of ways socializing is a muscle that can atrophy when it doesn’t get used but if you can get yourself started again it will become easier with practice.
Anon
1) Therapy. Gently, this post reads as someone who desperately needs therapy.
2) Confidence. I’m seeing a lot of negative self talk in your post. Start with finding self confidence elsewhere in your life: work towards an accomplishment, pick up a hobby, do something that’s purely fun that you enjoy doing just for you, set a tough goal and work towards it. Confidence feeds off of itself; if I’m feeling confident about my new run PR, then I start feeling more confident about other things to.
3) Start sharing more with friends, other relatives (maybe not family of origin, but inlaws? Cousins?), and then slowly work up to coworkers and acquaintances. You can start small (what you did this weekend, ask people if they have book/recipe recs, something fun youre looking forward to).
4) Since your husband is fully in your corner and someone you feel totally comfortable with (which is great!), can you maybe brainstorm some good topics/conversations with him?
5) When you put yourself out there, there’s always the risk of being hurt but getting out there and out of your shell is always worth it
Anonymous
TLDR; how do you get closure/move on when you are ghosted by someone you were in a serious relationship with?
My bf of 7 months has ghosted me. The Coles Notes: It was a difficult relationship because we had very different approaches to communication and relationships, but we were really trying hard to make it work (like I’m talking even having bi-weekly check-ins with a list of written out questions), and I saw such glimpses of the man he could be that I stayed in the hopes that he would eventually grow into that life partner for me. We also talked at length about the future and I genuinely love this man and was building a life with him, he was welcomed by my family etc. – this was not a causal thing. Unfortunately, as soon as the effort stopped, we stopped getting along and would just fight constantly. It got to the point where we were fighting more than we were getting along. He stormed out after a fight a few weeks ago and I didn’t hear from him for 3 days. When I finally did, I was at my last straw and his response didn’t reassure me or feel like him taking responsibility for his actions, so I broke up with him. A week later I regretted it and asked if he wanted to try and work it out (I basically begged for him back and offered some suggestions for how we could make it work) and he said that he wasn’t sure yet, that he was going home to his folks’ place for a week and would call me when he got back on the weekend. The weekend came and went without a word from him. Then on Sunday he deleted and unfollowed our Spotify playlists without saying anything to me. I took that as a message that he was done but still expected him to reach out and say so, given the seriousness of our relationship. He didn’t. I haven’t heard anything from him and couldn’t be in limbo any longer, so I returned his stuff to his place yesterday and am considering it over. I don’t feel that saying anything more would do any good at this point, but I’m not sure how to get a sense of “closure” on my own. I really gave most of my energy to loving this guy and now just feel so hurt that he doesn’t value me enough to even break up with me in a respectful way. I thought that returning his stuff would give me the closure I need, but it didn’t. I know that we are not right for each other (and his behavior during this breakup only confirms that), but my head is not able to help my heart right now. Anyone else experienced being ghosted by someone you were in a serious relationship with? How do you move on when you didn’t get to say goodbye? How do you let go of potential that wasn’t realized when it feels like it could still have been realized if only you could have had a conversation? I am in so much pain that I am unable to work, so really any advice is welcome.
Anon
He didn’t ghost you, you broke up with him! This relationship sounds like it was awful. Breakups suck, but this one sounds like it was way overdue.
Anon
Also, you don’t get closure in most things in life, it’s a myth. You get over relationships and pain by time, see “the only way out is through.” You sound like you just really want to control him/this breakup.
Anonymous
Not about control at all. I want the bare minimum of respect, which I did not receive, and now I am asking for advice on how to cope with that.
Anon
He doesn’t owe you anything at this point. You were in a high-drama, high maintenance relationship for seven months and you dumped him.
Peloton
His obligation to give you “respect” ended the second you dumped him. If you were in a relationship and he did not respect you, your only real recourse would be to break it off. You’ve exercised that option. Neither of you owe the other anything.
Anon
There were so many bright red, gigantic, waving red flags in your description of the relationship that I don’t even know how to unpack them all, but will just say: this person has made an intentional choice to cut off contact with you and you need to respect it. I can completely understand from your original post and your other replies why he has made that choice. You need to move on with your life and stop attempting to contact him before you end up with a restraining order filed against you. As others have said, he does not owe you closure.
Anon
You broke up with him. That is your closure.
Anonymous
I did at one point but then expressed that I wanted to work it out and, while he said he wasn’t sure, he said he would call me when he got back to discuss. So I’ve just been waiting for that call and never received it and it was never confirmed to me that the relationship is over and he doesn’t want to work it out, because he never expressed that. That’s the ghosting.
Anon
It’s not ghosting. You broke up with him and he agrees that you’re broken up. Move on and value yourself a little more. You sound way, way, way too needy here, which was probably a big factor in why the relationship didn’t work.
Just a tip for the future – men are not improvement projects. Do not be with a man because you see the man he could be and think you can fix him. You can’t. When you meet someone you like as-is, that’s the one for you.
Anonymous
“You sound way, way, way too needy here, which was probably a big factor in why the relationship didn’t work.” Yikes. You sound like a really kind person. Definitely the kind of person I’ll take advice from…
Anon
Yeah, that really jumped out at me from OP’s post.
Anon
Are you OP, @1:19?
Because this was actually the advice you need, even if not the advice you want to hear.
Sydney
I agree – this is a really great opportunity for you to look critically at yourself and grow. If you ignore your role in creating the chaos, chances are you’ll just recreate it in the next relationship. All while focusing on what the other person is doing wrong…
Anonymous
That’s no ghosting
Anon
Dude you broke up with him, and your entire relationship was dysfunctional. Get therapy and move on. Breaking up was the right move. Ghosting is not what happened here.
Senior Attorney
I agree that you broke up with him and he broke up back, and that it was a good move for both of you. He is doing you a favor by going no-contact. When I left my former husband I was devastated that he didn’t contact me at all, but it was the best thing he could have done because it helped break the attachment, which is the job you now have in front of you.
Here are some things to keep telling yourself:
1. Relationships are supposed to make your life better, not harder. They are not supposed to be that much work.
2. The only way out is through.
3. The job at hand is to break the attachment so you can move forward. (See “the only way out is through,” above.)
4. This time next year everything will be MUCH BETTER.
5. He is doing you a favor by going no-contact because the job at hand is to break the attachment so you can move forward.
Hugs, OP. And also
Senior Attorney
…and also there is generally no such thing as closure. You just have to get over the attachment and move on.
Anonymous
Thank you so much for your compassion and these tips – super helpful
Anonanonanon
SA always comes through with the best advice.
Anonymous
Ok sweetie we have all been there! Closure is a myth. Right now you need to dig deep and remind yourself that your ancestors couldn’t Nope out of farming because their feelings were hurt and at least do a minimum at work. Only 2.5 days left.
Then you need to explore why you stayed in a relationship that was obviously not working. People are not improvement projects. Your time is too precious to invest in potential.
Anonymous
Thank you. I definitely wasn’t treating him as a “project” it was more the relationship itself that was the project (like if we both worked on ourselves and worked together on our communication issues, then we could be the couple we had the potential to be – it was about growing consciously and together), but I understand your point about investing in potential.
Senior Attorney
No projects! Here are a few more aphorisms for you:
People are not improvement projects.
Relationships are not improvement projects.
The relationship is as good as it’s ever going to be at the beginning, when everybody is on their best behavior.
There is no such thing as “relationship sweat equity.”
The relationship stands or falls on the worst parts, not the best parts. Anybody can be charming and kind and romantic from time to time, but if day to day is a slog, or if there are even isolated incidents of dealbreaker behavior, that’s what you use to evaluate whether to stay or go.
anon
It should not be that much work 7 months into a relationship.
Anon
“it was more the relationship itself that was the project (like if we both worked on ourselves and worked together on our communication issues, then ***we could be the couple we had the potential to be*** – it was about growing consciously and together)”
I put the asterisks around the statement above because I want to highlight: if this was a *shared* vision of “the couple you had the potential to be” – meaning you discussed it and he agreed with your idea of that – that’s one thing. If you are the one who decided about what would make you into “the couple you had the potential to be” and was trying to make that happen solely through your own actions – oh, girl. Let me just tell you there is no easier path to heartbreak than creating your own internal vision of what a relationship should or could be like and then trying to (via either gentle nudging or not-so-gentle pushing) get your partner to fit that mold. Grown adults are who they are, for the most part. They change if and when they want to change. That’s it. You’re in the relationship you’re in with the person you have chosen, as they are. If that’s not what you want or doesn’t meet your expectations, you are better off finding a new person than trying to re-engineer the relationship into being something it isn’t. I hope this ends up being a valuable learning experience, for next time.
Anonymous
OP here – it actually was a shared vision that we discussed at length many times. It wasn’t about changing who we were, it was about learning how our pasts, fears, communication and attachment styles interacted with each other in a way that created an environment that wasn’t healthy for either of us, and so the work was to, together and individually, figure out ways to fix that environment and carry on together. This was not a sudden fight. We tried for months and months to make this work. I’m not sure why all the attacks on my character, I haven’t even disclosed anything about myself or even about how he was in this relationship – I focused on its end because that’s what I’m dealing with right now but there is nuance here that many are missing. I’m obviously not still trying to contact him, what I asked for was advice on how to move forward from here.
Anon
I am honestly not trying to attack your character or make value judgments, truly. But in the future, just know that a relationship should not take “months and months” of work almost from the jump of getting together. The beginning should be the easy part! It’s the part where things are fun and lighthearted and you’re seeing how you’re compatible and enjoying the things you have in common. Also, I am just going to say – by all means, please work in therapy on your attachment style, communication style, fears, etc. If you’re with someone who also has heavy work to do on those things, I just don’t know too many situations where two people in a new relationship can do that heavy work on themselves and simultaneously build a relationship. Fix yourself first, and then find someone who has also already done the work to fix himself. And if you meet someone and you’re interested, but then say to yourself – well, but he has so much work to do on X or Y – walk away. Stay friends, support him, but don’t get into a relationship with someone thinking you’re going to get him to see the light on what he needs to do to fix himself, or be the inspiration he needs to do that work.
Many of us have been where you are and are just speaking from a place of experience and healed heartbreak because we understand the path you’re walking. I wasted years of my life in a similar relationship that flat-out was never going to work, and I wish someone had just told me that before I wasted those years. This is a tough experience, but you can learn from it. Don’t try to fix this broken thing you were in, and waste time trying to put it back together. Work on healing yourself and then get back out there and find your person.
Anonymous
OP here – thanks Anon at 3:26. I think your comment is spot on. It’s painful because I had fixed myself! I was actually so proud of how far I’d come. I’d done so much self-work and therapy and was alone for a long time before this relationship that I thought I was actually in a great place personally and emotionally and ready to be a great partner to someone when this relationship started. Unfortunately, it seemed that being with him was bringing out all of this stuff that I had thought I had fixed!! And this started to happen very early on and I caught it and doubled my therapy efforts and was open with him about it. I just wanted so badly to be a good partner to him, but ultimately we just couldn’t understand each other and I constantly felt that my needs just weren’t being met. Also he had so much trauma and stuff of his own that he wasn’t working on (isn’t in therapy, etc.), that it did become two people with heavy stuff to work on trying to simultaneously build a relationship, and it felt like sometimes I was our relationship therapist even though I was in the relationship. So yeah, 100% lots of lessons here for me to learn once I get past the hurt, I’m just not there yet.
Anon
“Unfortunately, it seemed that being with him was bringing out all of this stuff that I had thought I had fixed!! And this started to happen very early on and I caught it and doubled my therapy efforts and was open with him about it. I just wanted so badly to be a good partner to him”
I just want to say, and I am sure you realize this now, one of the red-red-reddiest of red flags in a relationship is when the person brings out the worst in you, and continually puts you back into behavior patterns you are aware of and have tried really hard to break. It sounds to me like you took a TON of emotional responsibility onto yourself to make this work. It’s not all on you to make a relationship work! Your effort should be met with equal effort. If you don’t have that with someone – thank u, next! Hugs.
Anon
Essentially what you just said is if you both changed the relationship had potential.
Aunt Jamesina
I agree that closure doesn’t exist. Time will help the sting go away. I think you dodged a huge bullet, relationships at the seven month mark shouldn’t be that much work! I’m sorry you’re going through all of this.
Anonymous
Thank you – I agree re dodging a bullet and hope that over time, that helps with the pain.
Anon
I think the bf is the one who really dodged the bullet.
Anon
You don’t know anything about OP or this relationship.
Anonymous
What is this childish chaos of a relationship? All of this is no, both of you are acting like you’re 16. Stop it and work on moving on. Also are you the same OP who has been posting break up Q’s for the past few weeks? If so also stop that.
Sydney
Definitely go to therapy. It seems like from some of your responses to questions here you aren’t quite willing yet to look critically at yourself / the way you may operate in relationships. It seems like you want to insist that things have to go a certain way in order for you to feel okay (ie, “if he broke up with me the right way, I’d have closure and this would feel better) or with the sense of “shoulds” (ie, “this isn’t the way it should go! It is wrong! I have to fixate on how he is wrong, rather than working on severing the attachment and letting go”). My guess is that you are a bit anxious, overthink a lot in relationships, tend toward wanting to control everything to be perfect (including your BF’s communication) and catastrophize when it isn’t.
It takes two people to tango in a 7-month high-conflict relationship, even if your part of the dance was just not leaving in the case that the other person was toxic. It seems like therapy would be really valuable to parse out what thought patterns or impulses you have that are hurting you so much and work on those. This is a great opportunity to heal inner attachment issues / reflect on yourself / and become a healthier version of yourself!
In the meantime, cry a lot, journal constantly, talk to friends, try to distract yourself by doing things that are joyful and new. It will get better, day by day.
Anon
This is definitely the nicer and more patient way to say the things I was thinking as I read OP’s post and replies.
Anonymous
Thank you, appreciate this – I am in therapy and have been throughout this. That was one of my efforts that I committed to for the betterment of myself and the relationship – working on my anxious attachment style and I did learn that the relationship was triggering my attachment wound in various ways (and his as well). But you know what, I never thought of my part of the dance being not leaving – that’s so insightful. Definitely will explore that next session.
Sydney
Aw of course! One last thing that my therapist has shared with me that might apply to you, is that sometimes people who are very smart with anxious attachment styles tend to intellectualize and package what are really just anxiety responses.
This might look like: my bf said something off, and it hurt my feelings a little bit. If I had a secure attachment style, it may be a 2-minute blip of feeling hurt and then I feel better. Or maybe I’d just label his behavior annoying and move on. Either case, probably wouldn’t bring it up.
Instead, because I’m anxious, I’d get really really hurt and feel like it was a huge deal. The HEALTHY response would be to say “this is my anxiety flaring up and not proportional to the situation; I’m trying to be more resilient; let me do some deep breathing and let it go.”
Intellectualizing looks like, instead, taking the anxiety and building a case to defend it – the ways in which the boyfriend’s comment point to larger tendencies he has – what those tendencies mean for a relationship etc etc. Suddenly it is a huge deal and I feel that I must have a sit-down conversation to discuss the comment. Because I’m intellectualizing this and making it sound compelling (like “working on our relationship” or solving our communication problems) then I don’t have space to confront what is actually going on: that it was a flare up of an anxious attachment style. I also don’t have the opportunity to do the real work of sitting with it, coping independently with the feelings and not making it someone else’s fault, refraining from my initial impulse to react, and moving on.
May be helpful with the breakup feelings!! It doesn’t sound like there is anything left from a conversation with him. All of these feelings are yours. No one else can fix them or make them better. Your only path forward is to really feel them, sit with them, try to access the core emotions and not the anxiety/ruminating, and be kind to yourself in the process.
Sending lots of love.
Senior Attorney
I know I’m all over this, but one more thing… I used to work in family law, and the very worst situations for kids are where the relationships between the parents were high conflict. It’s just as bad after the divorce as before the divorce. So if your relationship style involves a lot of conflict and fighting, please please get some therapy and figure out how to tone it down before you get married and have kids.
Hugs, OP. Better days are coming.
Anonymous
I’m OP – I appreciate you being all over this SA, your comments are so helpful. I can tell by some of the responses that I’m getting that I should I have said more about myself and my relationship style and the fact that this is not our first breakup (the first time it was him who ended it in a fit of rage), but this is actually my first relationship that I would consider ‘high-conflict’, and so much of my energy during the relationship was spent figuring out why that was, as it’s not my nature at all. Obviously we both played a part in how this went down, but a large portion of this relationship was spent trying to get him to open up to me emotionally and to be able to communicate his emotions in a healthy way (ie. not yelling, not storming out), and for me to approach these discussions in a way that made him feel safe in light of that. Hence the check-ins, which were my idea and my way to try to have us address issues before they got to a volatile point. I actually thought very often about ‘what if we had kids and they were also dealing with this’ and that was a dealbreaker for me, but I really love this guy and so kept trying to find ways to make it work for us to have that future together in a healthy way. Through more therapy and reflection, I hope to maybe get some clarity on why this ended up this way despite both of us trying very hard.
Anon
Definitely go to therapy, but let me give you the spoiler alert: it didn’t work despite you trying really hard, and him trying really hard, because fundamentally the two of you weren’t compatible. That’s really all there is to it. Two people can be objectively good people with a lot of great characteristics and still not be able to make a relationship work, because on a fundamental level, where it really matters, they are just too different. It’s not his fault and it’s not your fault. FYI, as someone who has been married a long time but had several failed relationships prior to finding my person: relationships are not like school, or your job, where if you just work really hard and put the time, effort and attention in, you will see a payoff and things will work out the way you want. In relationships either the compatibility is there or it’s not. And it’s not about surface stuff, it’s about values, beliefs, problem-solving approaches, etc. There is someone out there who is a good match for you, and whom you can have a positive, productive relationship with. But it’s not this guy. I know that’s tough to realize and I am sorry.
anon
Duuuude, no. This is broken. You were right to end it, and do not even entertain the idea of trying to win him back.
anon
You can’t fix incompatibility by trying hard. You just can’t. This was not the relationship for either of you. You move on by recognizing this and accepting it. In any situation you have the choice of one or more of the following options: accept, change, or leave. You do not have the latter to available to you, so you have to accept. Nothing you or he could have done would have changed things to make this work.
Senior Attorney
Oh, girl. It’s him. Sounds like my second marriage. He is totally doing you a favor.
Anon
can you reframe this in your mind as: you just got out of a dysfunctional relationship and are going no contact? (Which is exactly what you should be doing btw)
Rather than: he ghosted me and now I don’t have closure. (Which is completely not what you just described)
Anonymous
I’m OP – thanks for this reframing suggestion, I felt empowered just reading it. That is honestly the mindset that I was in when I made the decision to end things with him, and also when I made the decision to return his stuff without saying anything further (despite REALLY wanting to), but somehow my mindset shifted into feeling so powerless and hurt that he never called me like he said he would/doesn’t want to keep trying/doesn’t want to say goodbye – even though I knew that the relationship wasn’t right and acted on that out of respect for myself. The same weird mindset shift happened after I had broken up with him and is the reason I ended up reaching out trying to take it back. Definitely something to explore within myself. This and the other comments about compatibility and the interaction between intelligence and anxious attachment are super helpful and I’ve written them down to bring to therapy next week.
Anon
Any recs for a grief therapist in NoVA? I’m in Alex, and I’ve gained 30 lbs in 5 months, so clearly I’m not dealing with the loss well…