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Frugal Friday’s Workwear Report: Puff-Sleeve Rib-Knit T-Shirt

A woman with long brown hair wearing a black puff-sleeve top and jeans

Our daily workwear reports suggest one piece of work-appropriate attire in a range of prices.

Happy Friday! I love having a few slightly elevated T-shirts in my closet for casual Friday looks. This puff-sleeve shirt from 1.State has all the comfiness of your favorite 100% cotton tee with some architectural details that make it just a tiny bit fancier.

I would pair this with a midi skirt and heels for an easy business casual look or some dark-wash jeans and loafers for a more casual office.

The shirt is $49 at Nordstrom and comes in sizes XXS–XXL. It also comes in sunlight, pink cloud, violet tulle, ultra white, and cobalt sea, which is on sale for $29.40.

Here are two plus-size alternatives: this pink CeCe top ($49) and this black Kim & Cami top ($16.99)

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Sales of note for 12.5

Sales of note for 12.5

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300 Comments

  1. My company is sending me to the IAPP privacy summit in DC next month. I am in HR but helped implement a big software upgrade. I am going alone (no coworkers), have never been to a tech conference, and only went to DC when I was in high school (mid-00s). Most days at work I wear a ponte dress and black flats or kitten heels.

    All I can picture is the hoodie, jeans, and sneaker look. I do not want to stick out, I really would like to meet people. I will be there three full days. What should I wear?

    1. What about dark jeans, nice tshirt and long-ish blazer with cute white sneakers?
      This is what I’ve been wearing to work when no one else is around and it feels cute but still competent.

      2. I’m always on the hunt for a perfectly-fitting vintage-look tee to go under a blazer. The best one I found was a friend’s indie band tee, and I have not been able to figure out the brand.

    2. I am in digital marketing and see all sorts of variety at tech meetings. I usually wear black pants and top and comfy shoes like a colorful loafer.

    3. Forget the hoodie stereotype! You are going to DC, and by my count, are in your mid 30’s and are going alone. If you start dressing down, no one will notice you. I did some research for you on the website, and look at the pictures!
      https://iapp.org/conference/global-privacy-summit/

      You don’t want to be suit-formal, but there is nothing wrong with a young woman dressing for success — and that means both at and after the conference at local bars that have opened up after COVID. Not all men will be schlubby (of course some will, but those aren’t the ones you want to meet and spend time with).

      Since you’re going to be at the Downtown Marriot Marquis, you will be able to have a short cab ride to Georgetown and Foggy Bottom for nite life. I would not walk alone nowadays at night anymore because it is not as safe as it was when I was there, but it should be very easy to grab a cab or Uber. Also, Capital Hill is a possibility, but with the economy and the Russian Crisis, you are not going to find as many staffers out looking for women like you as their bosses are keeping them working to figure out solutions they can address on the floor of Congress.

      April in DC is great, hopefully you won’t be too late for the Cherry Blossoms, which b/c of Global Warming, will already be over. But you can see alot, and walk to the Smithsonian to see free museums. You have to check to see if you need to wear masks there since it is Federal. But you should have a great time, and mabye even find a guy you can date! Good luck to you!

    4. I have been many times. The dress is less hoodies/jeans/sneakers and more business casual. The west coast conferences are more jeans. The DC event is more work pants/blazer or even dress/blazer, though you will see some jeans on the last day. Your typical work outfit would be perfect. Overall I tend to spend a ton of time sweating what to wear and then see such a wide variety that I know I would have been fine with anything I had chosen. Good luck and have fun!

    5. My go to uniform for conferences in my casual enviro tech industry – dark jeans, nice tshirt/blouse/button up, jacket, sneakers.

      I tend to like classic white sneakers vs the bulky ones that are trendy now, although I do have a conference next week that I’m probably going to wear my pink sneakers :D but I’m already widely known so I have some latitude that I’m not going to become the “pink sneaker lady”.

      Alternatively, how about your ponte dress + jean jacket + black flats? As long as it’s warm enough and the black flats are comfortable to be walking in all day, that is a solid look. The jean jacket makes it a bit more cool/you won’t be too formal.

      Jackets should have pockets. Shoes should be comfortable for walking/standing long periods of time. Bring a tote with a crossbody strap

      1. Also have giant hips, and can confirm. I recently bought a top from Target that has a similar silhouette, and I was surprised by how flattering it was! It somehow felt really feminine, not linebacker-ish at all.

    2. I actually like it! I have very narrow shoulders though, so it wouldn’t look extreme.

    3. I have a very broad and square upper body and I can’t even get away with minor puff sleeves. This would be comical on me. But I can see it working for others.

      1. Yes – this is one of those looks that is great on some people while making me look like a football player.

        As I have gotten older, I have learned to pick the elements of the “current“ look that are flattering for my body while ignoring the ones that do not suit it. As someone with broad shoulders and no torso, I will be skipping both puff sleeves and tucked in shirts this season while embracing straight leg pants and loafers.

  3. I have several days off and I’d like to use one of them to fill my freezer with great meals for when I’m too busy to cook. Anything you really love?

    1. Ina Garten’s bolognese. The recipe makes two portions & is just so satisfying.

      If you have an instant pot, I love the “Butter Chicken Lady’s’ butter chicken recipe (google for the New Yorker article and recipe). Again, makes two batches. I use it with everything – fish, chicken, shrimp.

      Alison Roman’s shallot pasta sauce is absurdly easy, delicious and freezes well.

      Smitten Kitchen also has a whole frozen meal section.

      1. Ina Garten’s meatloaf as well. It freezes and reheats beautifully.

    2. We constantly fill our freezer, mainly with proteins that we supplement with veggies for an actual meal. Our favourites are bacon wrapped meatloaf from Cook’s Illustrated (can be frozen raw or cooked and cut into slices for individual reheating), pulled pork, burritos (takes practice to make sure they aren’t soggy on reheating), and lasagna (again, cooked or uncooked, but we prefer cooked and poritoned.)

      1. Same. Soups freeze well in a ziplock laid flat and don’t take up as much space as things like casseroles. I typically do a mix of a couple types of casserole and a couple soups.
        My favorite soups are potato soup with minimal chunks, chili, vegetable, and chicken rice soup.
        Favorite casseroles are lasagna, shepherds pie, chicken rice vegetable (and cheese).

    6. Smoothies in a wide mouth pint canning jars. I should really do this this weekend too because when I actually do this I feel really with it. I make a big batch of dairy-free green smoothies (usually just spinach, banana, coconut water) and then pour into wide mouth pint jars (leave a little space at the top), put the lids on them, and pop them in the freezer. Every evening move one to the refrigerator, and next day you have a smoothie ready to go.

      I also freeze soup in wide mouth pint jars. As long as it’s dairy free, it’s very good for freezing.

      I’ve also frozen homemade eggrolls. I mostly do this when I have a craving for egg rolls but the whole batch is too much for at once. I bet egg roll in a bowl recipes would freeze well.

    7. Almost any time I make a meal that has freezeable components, I double it and freeze half to use later. It’s hardly any more work to double a recipe!

      Favorites:
      -Marcella Hazan’s minestrone
      -Shakshuka sauce (leave out the eggs/feta/herbs and add those when you serve it)
      -Lemony lentil soup from Gimme Some Oven (really any soup or stew will work. I decrease the stock proportion so it doesn’t take up too much freezer space and just add a few cups when I reheat)
      -Homemade refried beans made in the Instant Pot are great for easy meals (bean quesadillas/burritos, nachos, etc)
      -I mix up huge batches of pizza dough (and sauce), no-knead dough, and pie crust and freeze in portions to use as needed
      -I really like the Blue Sky bran muffin recipes on Smitten Kitchen for breakfast. If you don’t have bran, you can sub ground oats.

      1. Also! To avoid tying up my “good” glass tupperware and generating waste by using Ziplocs and foil or plastic wrap, I instead store items in glass jars (be sure to leave space, and the wide-neck versions are easier to fill) and save the plastic and foil trays from takeout for the freezer (although I don’t ever reheat items in the plastic, transfer it to a heat-safe container first!).

    8. Enchiladas. Most recipes I have found make 12 enchiladas, which for me means 6 servings.

    9. I like to freeze pesto in giant ice cube trays. It means I can buy the enormous package of basil (or two), make pesto without the cheese, freeze it, and have a clutch sauce for whatever I have in the fridge/pantry or buy from the farmer’s market.

    10. Pinch of Yum has great freezer meals. Some are so easy you can prep them in 5 minutes but they taste like heaven. But no cream of x soup or one jar salsa type. Then slow cooker or instant pot or some just in oven or on stove. There’s a good mix of vegetarian, vegan, beef and chicken. I like the detox lentils soup/stew, wild rice soup, life changing beef stew, spiced chickpea bowls, cauliflower curry, beef ragu, chicken tinga, Hawaiian chicken tacos, Italian beef, creole chicken and sausage, lasagna (no boil noodles), tandori inspired coconut chicken, quinoa stuffed peppers and chicken meatballs. It’s hard to pick the favorite but the tandori chicken is fabulous and I could eat the lasagna every week.

      For two people, some of these recipes make too much like the Hawaiian chicken tacos or lasagne so I halve the recipe and freeze separately. Or I cook first instead of freezing and then freeze in halves or thirds. Now I know what I’m making this weekend! https://pinchofyum.com/freezer-meals

  4. All of a sudden yesterday I started getting bombarded with random calls and texts. Not uncommon for me to get one or two junk calls during the day but yesterday it was like 50, all from different numbers, some local, some not, some international. I didn’t answer any of them and they never left messages but it was just so weird. Has that happened to anyone before or any idea what could’ve caused it or how long it may last?

    1. Did you apply for any sort of credit? I found out that credit agencies sell your information to mortgage lenders when you have your credit pulled for a mortgage application. It’s crazy.

    2. Scammers seem to be upping their game lately. For a while we were getting 3 or 4 calls every other day, and then this week it seems that the phone has been ringing every half hour or more. Both the land line and the cells.

    3. Check your credit reports to be safe, could be someone stole your identity and went nuts applying for lines of credit.

    4. I also got a lot of spam calls yesterday. I get calls some times so I know I’m on some list, but idk what happened yesterday specifically.

    5. This happened to me a few weeks back. I silenced all unknown calls to make it easier to ignore them. After about a week — way too long — they finally stopped. I have no idea what triggered it or what ended it, but I am happy to report that it did stop on its own.

  5. Ugh, a Friday vent. I started a new job in October (academic) and my service role requires me to work with a professional services team. The two members of that team (line manager and her direct report) openly HATE each other. Got called in today to be told “You need to ask for help from direct report, this stuff isn’t your job…” but sometimes the tradeoff between getting (some) help with a massive side of attitudedrama doesn’t feel worth it.
    In the UK / in academia so no one is getting fired so I’ve just nodded and will continue to do whatever makes my life easier.

    1. Ugh. Ugh ugh. Yuck. Ugh.

      I am glad you are at the stage in life where you know to just nod and smile…

      1. Right? I spent my 20s railing against the idiocy of others and now I just kind of shrug. I’ll do what I need to do to support my students and move on.

  6. I was too late to reply to the question on dyeing your hair. I’m in my late 40s, started greying around 35. I dyed for 12y but have let my roots grow out since the start of the pandemic. I’m now almost fully transitioned to grey.

    A game changer was getting a keratin treatment. I think it’s also called a Brazilian blowout. Mine lasts six months with sulphate free products and there is no frizz. My hair is around 25% grey and looks lovely amid all the black. I’m lucky also that it’s evenly spread. But check it out. I realise I didn’t like frizzy grey hair. I have no problem with grey hair per se.

    1. Same. My brown hair is very baby fine and shiny/oily. The gray hair just doesn’t have the same texture (like a bad perm / very overprocessed hair), even with deep conditioning. It would be fine if my hair were naturally all one texture, but it just looks sloppy as it comes in now. So just coloring would look bad in a different way (eventually: becomes dull or flat, roots look too dark). Not coloring but doing the keratin looks a million times better.

      1. Also, with color, I’d have to do a lot of root touch-ups. With Keratin, it’s probably seasonal. The regrowth isn’t really problematic the way roots are.

    2. Thank you so much! I appreciate the follow up, and will definitely check it out. My hair is very fine, and the gray ones are a different “poke-y” texture for sure. I think that this could be useful. My hair is WAY more than 25% gray – honestly…I think, gray or not….I just need to step up my hair maintenance (cut, treatment, color) game. Also, if I’m going to embrace the gray…really make sure that I’m wearing makeup and colors that don’t wash me out.

      Essentially…I need to be a different person than I am right now as someone working from home full time who also has a 16-month old baby and hasn’t worn anything other than leggings for two years. LOL.

    3. Just FYI that keratin treatments produce formaldehyde vapor which you and the stylist then inhale.

      1. I am assuming that relaxer would just dissolve my hair. What else is out there? Perm solution?

  7. I have dropped some balls lately. It is not like me, but I have too much on my plate at work and my personal life isn’t going great. It’s like I have brain fog for the details. Any tips on tightening things up when you feel overwhelmed? Two things that happened this week: Showing up late for a Zoom meeting, and blowing a deadline because I had it in my mind (and my calendar) that the deadline was Thursday, not Wednesday. A few weeks ago, it was a project that I’d dropped the ball on. I feel like a flake, and people are going to start wondering what’s up if I can’t get my act together.

    1. I find a giant brain dump helpful, get a big piece of paper and write down everything that comes to mind, go through your inbox and create any to dos. And calendering everything immediately.
      But if you’ve got way too much on, balls can get dropped, and I don’t know if anyone would hold being late to a zoom against you?

      1. Yep – I do this a lot when there’s a lot in my brain. I open a word document and just keep typing with no rhyme or reason until everything is out and then I start organizing based on priorities/deadlines. I’ll save the word document so I can add/remove items and update for as long as I need to use this system.

        1. Same. A good old fashioned brain dump list!

          That said, your examples, while I’m sure personally frustrating, don’t stand out to me as “omg what a flake” reputation ruiners – until it turns into a real pattern, you’re good.

        2. Same for me, but I find writing the list by hand more useful. I keep a long master list of to-dos that in theory I add every task to, and then pull from that for my “must do today” tasks. Every so often I have to brain dump into the big list because I’ve fallen off in keeping it up to date and tried to keep it in my head.

      2. I also do this. I have butcher paper I put on my wall, and continue to add things for days after the initial dump because walking by reminded me of something.

    2. Be kinder to yourself. Unless the consequences are really high here – like you blew an appellate deadline, or you were running the annual shareholders meeting and everyone was waiting for you for 15+ minutes – your examples are really not that big a deal. Mediocre white men show up late to meetings and blow internal deadlines by a day all the time with no apology or remorse. If you’re generally conscientious then it’s going to take a lot more for anyone other than you to even notice.

      2. +1. Shake it off and don’t get too hard on yourself. Two incidents does not make you a flake or someone who always drops the ball. Do the brain dump to help yourself, but also really try and quit the self-talk where you feel like a flake – you’re not. I find that sometimes the negative self-loop self-talk actually is more harmful and self-fulfilling than just recognizing the incidents for what they are – random aberrations.

      3. +1 I completely forgot I had an early meeting with my business and a vendor and vendor counsel. Like managed to dial in for the last ten minutes of a 60 minute call. It was a non-issue. They were fine without me and I managed the document quickly on my end once we got redlines. It seriously was not an issue. I apologized for it and that was that.

      4. Yes! I used to really beat myself up for mistakes at work, and then I realized that 1. my mistakes were very rarely THAT bad and 2. If they were that bad, owning up to it right away and doing everything I could to make it as right as possible was almost as good as doing it right in the first place, especially since people know I generally do solid work. Absolutely everyone screws up from time to time.

        1. +1 to handling mistakes this way. For me, it felt like a new level of experience/professionalism once I figured out that I wasn’t going to be perfect all the time but I knew how to handle mistakes well.

    3. I was literally just talking to my husband last night about this. We were both lamenting that we felt just at loose ends/scattered. I think there’s just so much going on in the world right now and we’ve been living with such a low-level of background noise and stress for so long, it’s kind of caught up.

  9. Quick COVID question. For those of you that ended up with symptomatic COVID, how many days after having symptoms did you test positive?

    My kid (9)’s best friend, who she plays with unmasked at school, just found out yesterday that she has COVID because it got picked up in pool testing. No symptoms but her brother tested positive too.

    My daughter was tested at school on Wednesday and also yesterday (pool testing and follow up). She came home with a stuffy nose and woke up today good and sick- chills, nausea, headache, the works. Tested again this AM; still not COVID.

    Pretty sure she (and two other friends who also stayed home today!) just has good old regular sickness.

    All this is relevant only because my MIL is flying in soon for a visit and if we have COVID around the house she will need to cancel because I don’t want her getting it and having to quarantine and not fly home! If my daughter ends up positive, I have 3 other kids in the house so odds are good it will spread. Everybody involved is fully vaccinated. MIL is scheduled to fly out Tuesday AM.

    If my kiddo is still testing negative at the end of the weekend, does it seem reasonable to keep our plans? That would be 5 days from when her BFF tested positive.

    1. If you want peace of mind I’d suggest a molecular test as they’re more accurate

    3. I tested negative on a rapid test with symptoms, and only tested positive a week later when my symptoms had long resolved and I was just-in-case testing before seeing family. If you have known exposure and then start showing symptoms, I think you should assume it’s Covid.

      1. This. 14 people in my extended family had breakthrough cases of COVID over the holidays. None of them tested positive on PCR or rapid tests until 2 – 5 days after the onset of symptoms.

      2. Yep. My boss was super sick but didn’t get a positive test until I think day 5 of his symptoms. He tested every day.

    4. It took me about 3 days of having symptoms to test positive on an at home test. I think 5 days is a safe window to see if she’ll test positive.

    5. I wouldn’t assume it’s regular illness given known exposure. It can take more than a week to test positive.

    6. Anecdotally, I know multiple people who tested negative twice on home tests while waiting for their PCR appt, scheduled about 4-5 days after symptom onset. The PCR came back positive for some of them, and for some, indeed just a cold.

    7. Are you testing on home test or at the pedi office? My kid got covid, symptomatic for 3 days, home tests all negative, the pedi did a molecular test which was positive. He finally tested positive on the home tests a week later.

    8. I think one upside of Omicron is that you test positive sooner, so I think 5 days is okay. I’d still tell your MIL, of course, so she can make her own decision.

      1. Actually it’s the opposite–with Omicron you test positive later on, especially if you’ve been vaccinated.

        1. I don’t think that’s right. Posting a link below that says essentially incubation period dropped from 5 to 3 days on average. Not sure about kids, I guess.

          2. Incubation period is not synonymous with when you test positive. Vaxxed people usually have symptoms before positive test; with unvaxxed it’s often the opposite.

        3. Doesn’t it depends if it’s a nose swab (false negative at first) or a throat swab (positive sooner)?

      2. I think there are a few moving targets here that ultimately result in people testing positive later than they would have expected based on pre-omicron Covid. Symptoms show sooner especially in the vaccinated, so the window of time in which you start thinking you might have Covid moves up. I don’t think the window of time in which you start testing positive moved up as significantly, so the actual result is that our perception is that testing positive takes longer, even if that isn’t actually true.

    10. Did she get a flu test? The same thing happened to me and they dual tested me and it turned out I had the flu. I took multiple PCR tests and they all came back negative.

      1. or even RSV? I know she’s a bit old for it, but I think kids missed a couple years of exposure, so older kids are getting it now (based on my anecdotal friend group evidence)

    11. I had Delta in August. I tested negative on a PCR the first day I felt sort of off, was sure I was sick on day 2, got another PCR on day 3 and tested positive then. I was pretty sure I had it though, because my son had it and we were not isolated at all (camping when it started, then long car trip home). We didn’t get him tested until his 3rd day of symptoms due to being in the middle of nowhere when it started, and he tested positive on a rapid test. That was my day 1. My husband also tested negative on PCR on my day 1, started feeling sick on my day 3 and tested positive on another PCR on my day 4.

      Regardless of whether it is COVID, I would think your MIL should reschedule anyway – good old regular sickness is no fun and would also require her to stay until she recovers before traveling (I would hope).

      FWIW, my son’s initial symptoms were nausea and extreme fatigue, and I have read that GI symptoms are a lot more common in kids.

    12. When you hear hooves, think horses not zebras. Covid exposure + symptoms is likely Covid. It’s not unusual to be negative on rapid tests for the first few days of symptoms.

      2. Except in this case, the two kids that sit with her in class have a non-COVID bug.

        It’s a situation where there are several horses ;).

          1. This. No matter what your kid has, chances are that others in the house will come down with it right before MIL arrives. Don’t get her sick. Reschedule.

        2. I wouldn’t just assume the playmates won’t all end up eventually having positive tests either (assuming they are even bothering with testing still).

          Regardless, it’s so contagious and your child had a known exposure and is showing symptoms that could be–all of that should mean rescheduling.

    13. with a known exposure + symptoms, I’ve known several people who test positive 3-5 days after symptoms start. If you have easy access to a PCR, try that as it will be more sensitive. I would assume kid is positive until they test negative at day 5 after exposure.

  10. I’m going to preface this question with the fact that I am completely out of the loop business fashion wise. I was a stay-at-home mom/wife for 13 years and had no reason to look at anything other than jeans and tees.
    What does everyone think of ‘borrowing from the boys’ fashion wise? I’ve never been one to follow trends, and it seems the only place I’ve actually found pieces I like is the menswear department. I’ve been mulling around the idea of menswear + finding a good tailor. (I’m going to find a good tailor regardless, as a pear shape, finding bottoms that fit both my hips and waist off the rack is hard, lol)
    thoughts?

    1. I guess it depends on what you mean by menswear? As a pear myself, I think this look is going to be hard to pull off and you’ll be spending a fortune to tailor stuff. If you like menswear, I would stay out of the men’s department and look for classic items like Oxford shirts, button-downs, etc. at JCrew or BR.

      1. Unfortunately that’s where my problem comes from. 90% of the offerings of those companies, and others, are things I would never wear. When I do come across one I would wear, it either doesn’t come in my size, doesn’t come in back or navy, or doesn’t have a matching piece…

          1. I agree mostly. But I think there’s also kind of an Isabel Marant early 2000s look that is menswear for women and is pretty chic.

            Since we’re in an era of sneakers with everything, I can totally see OP pulling this off with men’s or boy’s department items. Agree tailoring will be key if OP isn’t just going for a baggy, oversized look aka Annie Hall.

    2. This is a look that requires commitment not just to tailoring but grooming and making sure your weight/size is stable long term. These pieces look awful if they pull or get too tight. If you put in the effort though it’s a stunning look.

      1. Woof. I don’t really want to parse what this comment means, but it’s not kind.

        OP, I am petite and curvy but love men’s styles. So far, I have not attempted men’s pants–my waist to hip ratio just doesn’t bode well for that. But I have a bunch of men’s shirts that I tuck into my high-waisted pants, and roll up the sleeves to about 3/4 length on me. Men’s sweaters can be worn the same way. I wear a lot of vests, sometimes over the men’s shirts, as well as blazers. I do get women’s sizing in the vests and blazers, but it’s still a menswear-inspired look while fitting properly.

        One thing I notice from doing so much vintage shopping is that women’s sizing used to be looser in the shoulders and upper arms (in the 80s and 90s). This silhouette can also look a bit more masculine in a way that I like.

        1. I have many a friends who wear menswear and look great at all sizes but irrespective of size menswear is less forgiving to weight fluctuations especially since most menswear fabrics are woven non stretch.

          1. Yes, this. Men tend to gain in the belly, which doesn’t change their pants size. Manufacturers know this.

          2. Men also use sturdy leather belts. Their waist sizes span two inches (e.g., 34, 36, 38), not the one inch that some women’s manufacturers use. But they are completely unforgiving in the hips and especially thighs.

          4. “Make sure you have clothes that fit” is perfectly reasonable advice for anyone. Nobody is disagreeing with that. But encouraging a “commitment” to “grooming” and a long-term “stable weight” is rude. (I still don’t know what the “grooming” refers to? What special grooming do women have to do in order to wear men’s clothing?)

            Anyway I also have lots of non-stretch women’s clothing too, and prefer it. It holds up better and doesn’t bag out over the day like stretchy items do.

        2. Are you tall? I have to wear a men’s wear uniform shirt and there is OMFG too much fabric to tuck in (and also: too much fabric and too snug on the hips to leave untucked). Doubly so in the winter when I am layering a turtleneck (women’s) underneath. I so want to go to a tailor but will be damned if I am getting a couture polyester men’s uniform shirt that I am popping a name badge onto. At least it is polyester so I can merely launder vs dry clean, but it is wretched and has convinced me that men’s wear maybe is for people who are at least 5-8, which I am not.

        3. The comment is not unkind. She’s simply stating that these pieces will look best on OP if impeccably tailored and impeccably tailored clothes aren’t compatible with large weight fluctuations. Fluctuating too far up OR down will cause the garments to look awful.

          1. Kind advice would be to make sure the clothes fit her. This unkind advice was to make sure she is “committed,” over time, to fitting the clothes.

          2. If she needs entirely new tailored pants every time she gains or loses a few pounds, no amount of kindness changes how that impacts her budget, ability to look put together, and mental health (all these beautiful expensive clothes don’t fit).

    3. If you haven’t worn business clothes in 13 years, it might br taking you a while to adjust to the changes in fashion since the aughts.

      If you like a sleek, tailored look with lined pants and natural fabrics, find those in women’s stores. Men are almost the anti-pear in shape (no butt, flat hips), so the proportions won’t work for you.

      1. And therein lies my problem, lol. I find the offerings today just awful. Ankle, and cropped, pants make me look like a kid who hit a growth spurt and needs new clothes. Wide and oversized make me look like a kid playing dress-up with their parents clothes.
        I’m scouring the women’s stores hoping to find what I’m looking for, because the proportions being off is one of the reasons I haven’t actually tried it yet.

        1. Look at BR online (vs stores). They have a lot of solid basics in normal lengths (washable wool suiting pants) and a cut that will fit an actual woman (vs a man, with different fat distribution patterns).

          1. This is what bugs me about “unisex” or “inclusive” clothing and shoes. They are all cut for men, which is not at all inclusive of female bodies. A small woman is not the same as an XXXS man. A medium-sized woman is not the same as a small man. A large woman is not the same as a medium-sized or large man.

          2. My husband and stepson have provided me with a bunch of too-small men’s clothes in S, M, and L over the years. I’m 5-5 and the S was too narrow and too long in the torso, the M is still snug in the hips but too boxy north of that, and the L is just a bad swim cover-up. My shoulders are much narrower. My hips are spaces for birthing large-headed babies (based on sisters). None of it went to my closet and all went to goodwill. The pants were all designed . . . to ride beneath a gut and maybe would make OK maternity pants or something worn with suspenders, but they were not ever going to work either, even the basic denim.

        2. Kindly, it probably doesn’t look awful, your eye just needs to adjust. If you’re getting back into work, you’re going to want to look current and an adapted menswear wardrobe just isn’t that (unless of course you identify that way, but doesn’t sound like it from your post). I think you should find current pieces that fit, and get used to it.

        3. Could it be that you’re just not used to seeing yourself in these new silhouettes?
          If you want to stick with menswear looks, use the search term “dapper” to get inspiration and potentially retailers.

        4. How about stores aimed at an older demographic? Brooks Brothers and Talbots come to mind.

        5. Take a look at Ann Taylor’s Straight Pant in the Curvy Fit. Not cropped, not wide-legged – just a straight pant with a smaller waist and more room in the hips.

          If I were you, I’d order pants in as many cuts and sizes as possible, and then try on tons of them to get a feel for what you like. Try them with the shoes that you are likely to be wearing. I bet that one of them will fit will and make you feel good. Then just buy several of that same shape/size/cut.

          I’d frankly do the same thing with button-down shirts – buy a bunch from different places and get a feel for what you like best. Then order several of those.

          I think if you’re a pear, you can borrow styling from menswear, but it makes a lot of sense to buy the actual clothes from the women’s side of the shop.

        6. I would get a personal shopping appointment if you’ve not worn business clothes in that long given how styles have changed. Especially with the pandemic, it’s hard to find things that I/we like so shopping is harder. If you can afford the investment, maybe a private stylist. If not, then Nordstroms or other department store like Macy’s or Bloomingdales or Dillards?

    4. I’m also a pear, and IMO I don’t have the shape to pull this off. I’ve never seen this work unless you’re tall and lanky.

      1. Yeah, that’s why I’m still in the mulling-it-over phase. Almost every picture I’ve seen with women wearing menswear they tend to be more of a rectangle, lol. My hips are the widest part of my body, and I have pretty big thighs…I’m 5’7″, though, and weigh 130lbs.

        1. OK, we have the same body type and height … I think this is going to be a huge exercise in frustration and you won’t end up with the look you want. I am having decent luck with online shopping. There are long, non-ankle pants to be found.

    5. I’m not tall and lanky (probably would be best described as petite and dense/athletic but I think the look can work on any body with some adjustments. If you’re already working with a tailor, it seems like it’d be worth pursuing. I think pear shaped can work, but you need to be aware of non-stretch fabrics (unless your weight is really stable from day to day).

      There used to be a really good blog for this, but I can’t find it. I found a helpful article from Gabrielle Arruda, if you google her name plus menswear.

      I’d like to do more in this direction, too, but I can’t figure out what to do with shoes, which I know is sort of an absurd problem.

      1. Loafers and oxfords. Loafers are easy to find now; oxfords are surprisingly hard (been trying to replace a pair for like a year now)

        1. Thank you! I’ve never found them to be comfortable, maybe because they’re traditionally mens shoes and I have very “female” triangular feet? But worth a second look. i’ve tried mules and I think I don’t have enough of an arch for them…

          Of course I just got pregnant so I think menswear may be a weird look on me for the next year, ha.

          2. Thanks, jules. I think I mentioned once? Trying not to get too attached for a few more weeks.

    6. My mother wore men’s shirts with women’s pants to work for years and years. She did not get them tailored and went for an oversized look.

    7. I was going to say this is a commitment, in the sense that you need to make it your look. It’s a great look but if you do it as a sometimes thing it will seem like a costume.

      I wouldn’t worry about the pear thing; a good tailor can make this work. The key is having enough total fabric. If it’s in your budget, you might just try going custom.

      My mom and dad were differently shaped and sized. After he died she had one of his suits made over for her and it looks terrific; it’s a great connection for her and I love to see her wear it because it makes me think of both of them.

      1. Oh, I love this.

        Is it morbid that I am thinking of copying this idea if, heaven forfend, my sweet husband should be so rude as to break his promise to outlive me?

    8. Dropping in to recommend the Wide-Leg Paperbag Pant from banana republic. I’m a significant pear and find these incredibly flattering. (They cinch in at my waist and then sort of flow down.) They are ok for my casual workplace, but use your judgement.

    9. I love a menswear LOOK but executed with women’s specific clothing. I’m a short pear, and my favorite pants are Ann Taylor LOFT curvy fit–they fit a small waist/large hips beautifully. For a cheaper option, the Worthington brand from JC Penney is surprisingly good quality, love their curvy trouser pants. I sew my own button-up shirts, but off the rack, the Banana Republic “non-iron fitted” shirts are good for a tucked-in look (because ain’t nobody gonna see that I have the bottom button undone!).

    10. I wouldn’t recommend this at all. You self-admit you are out of the loop fashion-wise, so chances of you pulling it off well are very slim. You are much more likely to look like someone who is out of the fashion loop and wearing ill-fitting clothes. There is a reason why women’s clothes are cut differently (I say this as someone with wide feet who gladly wears mens slippers and some shoes). Trying to wear another gender can be difficult, with shoulders and rise and, as someone mentioned above, the fact that men’s clothes tend to be less forgiving. Instead, go for classic shapes and neutrals in your department. If it’s an issue of feeling too trendy or not formal enough, then seek out stores that are geared to older classics, like a Talbots or a Brooks Brothers. If it’s an issue of feeling too frilly or dressy, then seek out something more like an LL Bean or a Duluth Trading or the like, where you’ll see very similar styles to men but cut for a woman’s shape. I think the issue is you aren’t in the right stores. You also need to look around you a bit. You’re going to look weirder wearing a pair of men’s dress pants that are ill-fitting than a pair of ankle pants (and I find it hard to believe the only ones out there are ankle).

    11. Are you considering menswear because you want to look like you are wearing men’s clothes, or because you really just want women’s clothes from several years ago?

  11. I’m 43 and due for a Mirena replacement. Trying to decide the best course of action: ride out IUDs through menopause? Stop taking anything and get a bisalp instead? What have you older folks done around this timeframe?

        2. Before that I relied on condoms. I was pretty much over taking hormones (except as Plan B if the worst happened) and the copper iud wasn’t for me. Riskier than an IUD but condoms are still 98% effective.

    2. Are you experiencing side effects? If Mirena hadn’t caused me to gain 15 lbs and be hangry all the time, I would totally have kept it until menopause. (Yes, this was all definitely caused by Mirena because it magically went away after removal.) Someone here recently posted that she believes Mirena helped her avoid most menopause symptoms.

      1. I think that was Senior Attorney, who left hers in until she was in her early 50s. OP can probably find the posts if she searches.

          1. That post was really helpful for me because it was first-hand experience co-signing what my gynecologist told me, which is that for some women hormonal IUDs help perimenopause symptoms. Thanks for oversharing!

    3. I’m 45 and replaced the Mirena with the 10 year Paraguard about 3 years ago. I’m riding it out.

    4. 47, on the pill since 18, staying on it through menopause and then switching to HRT at some point. So far zero peri symptoms. My logic, I want no surprise late in life pregnancy to deal with, the pill is great for me (if I have side effects, I’ve had them for decades and don’t notice), and I like having it all controlled and easy. My husband would get a V but that doesn’t help me out beyond the very low pregnancy risk. It’s more about hormone management for me.

    5. Seem to recall that several women here have had IUDs and said they made perimenopause a lot easier.

      I’m 41 and we use barrier methods (cndms).

    6. I got my 4th one last summer at 44. My gynecologist was 100% in favor as I have PCOS and had very irregular cycles with heavy bleeding pre-IUD, which is now far in the past but I still remember how bad my periods were. She said that she loves hormonal IUDs for perimenopausal women because they seem to help with peri symptoms, the same way progesterone-only mini-pills do, but with fewer general side effects. I am going to leave this one in until I’m 51 (per the doc you can leave Mirenas in for 7 years now) and then re-evaluate at that time. They will do one more replacement, at which point I’d be 58 and almost certainly through menopause. My gyn actually advised me to do this, as she explained that pulling the IUD right when I may be in the worst part of the transition to full menopause may not be the best idea.

      If you’re just worried about pregnancy, you could do a bisalp, but frankly not having periods is great for me, so if I hadn’t replaced my IUD I would have gotten a uterine ablation. A friend of mine got one a few years ago and loves it. At 43 you could have anywhere from 7 to 12 more years of periods ahead. My mother didn’t fully go through menopause until she was 55.

    7. Do you dislike Mirena? Why are you looking to switch up?
      I have neither experience nor an opinion here, but it seems like if the IUD is working for you, sticking with it makes sense. But beware you may be in for 2 more. I am 48 and regular so you can’t assume you are on the edge of menopause.

      1. This summer when I got my replacement, I said something jokingly to the gyn about how I was hoping at 44 I might be getting close to being done with all the hormonal cycle stuff and she shook her head and said “that’s how I end up with 47-year-old pregnant women in my office.” She said women think menopause is happening to them much earlier than it actually does and she’s seen women still have semi-regular periods at 58. My hope to be close to done with ovulating in my mid-40s was apparently very wishful thinking.

        1. Yeah, this is my personal nightmare. I’ve avoided pregnancy for decades and I’m not about to let one slip through under the wire! BC for ever and ever.

          1. Amen to that! I was never more paranoid about an “oops!” than when I was in my late 40s/early 50s and in a bad marriage.

    8. I’m not in that age group, so take this with a grain of salt, but if you have any negative effects from the Mirena you could try one of the smaller hormonal ones (skyla or kyleena). Should hopefully still let you ride menopause out if you want, but maybe with fewer side effects? OF course, if you skip your period on Mirena, you may not on the smaller ones, so YMMV.

    10. FYI Mirena is now FDA approved for 7 years of pregnancy prevention (and they are investigating even longer effectiveness), so you may not be at its end of life .

      1. Oh, exciting! It’d always been longer in Europe so I was confused about why it was so short here. Wonder if they’ll push up lifespan for the smaller ones, too.

    11. I’m 42 and riding out IUDs to menopause or until I have a partner who gets a vascectomy (currentl single).

    12. I had a Mirena until I was in my early (mid?) 50s, and by the time it was removed I was on the other side of menopause. Five stars, highly recommend.

    13. The total exhaustion of pandemic parenting while WFH is a highly effective method of BC.

    15. Mirena got me through menopause, no issues. I never even had a hot flash, though I doubt it was because of the Mirena.

  12. What to wear in NYC the first week of April? All I’ve worn the last two years is sweatpants. I want to look cool and also weather-appropriate. Help?

  13. Suggestions please for sofa brands (and any specific sofa recs are appreciated too)! We’re looking to order one for a formal living room in our new house (not moving until June, and yes, I realize the sofa may not get delivered until much later than that if we order now). We’ve typically spent around $2k on a couch, but looking for an upgrade and willing to spend up to $5k for the right one. In term of size, looking for something in the 8ft range, not a sectional. Right now looking at RH, PB, Crate & Barrel, and West Elm. We have lots of WE furniture currently and have been happy with it. We like midcentury designs, but considering trying to move away from that toward something more transitional. Mostly looking for thoughts on quality and customer service. Thanks!

    1. At that price point I’d go with the higher end brands – Lee Furniture, Century Furniture, Hancock and Moore, Taylor King, etc. We have a Taylor King sectional that we love and their ‘cozy creations’ line lets you pick a basic shape and then customize just about everything (foot style, welting, buttons, fabric, size, etc.). The Taylor King website will direct you to local vendors, but we used a gentleman at ‘The Keeping Room’ in VA who was amazing and about 30% cheaper than what we were quoted for the exact same couch in MA.

    2. PB quality is not the greatest. Would add Ethan Allen to your list. They have moved into more modern styles vs the “90s family room” vibes they clung to for so long.

    3. We have a Room and Board Dean sofa, which is loved and looks new despite being 8 years old and used heavily during pandemic. I went into Room and Board a few weeks ago to look at chairs and saw a few 8ft sofas that I would buy in an instant. I don’t recall models/names, but worth looking into. We have several high quality pieces from Room and Board and their design services (free!) staff is helpful with colors, styles, custom options, etc..

    4. We have a Luonto that I love. We ordered in early 2020 through a local family-owned furniture store so no experience with customer service from the manufacturer, although it arrived in half the time quoted even though it shipped from overseas. I am very happy with the quality.

      I strongly recommend looking at fabric swatches in person (for this or any brand) so you know exactly what you are getting.

    5. Is there a Dania near you? We really like their furniture and have an 11 year old leather couch from them that’s still going strong.

      1. Yes, our sofa in the basement is from Dania and looks practically new after six years. Ours is made by Stanton Sofas in the US. I would absolutely avoid West Elm for anything except for small, non-upholstered items like side tables. Room and Board is also a safe bet if you like modern-ish lines.

    6. Our West Elm couch was awful. We got the Harris sectional and it looked saggy and sad after 6 weeks. We got them to take it back. Currently trying one out from apt 2b that we like, but my normal go-to is room and board, never had anything disappointing from there and everything has held up beautifully they didn’t have a sectional sleeper in the configuration I wanted but if this apt 2b one doesn’t hold up I’m just going back to room and board and making something from there work (they do have some custom stuff as well IIRC).

      1. ALso if you like midcentury then i’d look on AptDeco for a used couch . we got a vitra couch for about 2k (retail was close to 10k) though this was pre-pandemic so ymmv. My dream couch would be a Muuto couch

    8. Room and Board? I just got dining room chairs and a living room chair from them (9-month wait and 11-month wait respectively; I’ve got to believe their wait times have gotten better since then) so I can’t vouch for durability, but they look good and seem to have good reviews for upholstered pieces.

  14. How many cottagecore dresses is too many to buy for spring/summer? Asking for a friend!

    2. what do you wear them with? I see clogs and golden goose sneakers, but is that just how this look is done?

      1. This is such a great question. I was thinking of wearing one tonight but yeah what shoes do you wear it with?

        Also is it too early / too much still winter in NYC right now to wear one?

      3. the answer in the NE is “not yet, too early” but I wear mine with flat tan sandals or espadrilles. I can admire the canvas white sneaker look on others but it’s not great on me.

      4. I wear them a lot with basically all my shoes – everything mentioned here, clogs, sneakers, espadrilles, flats and also heels for a dressed up look, and boots. I think anything works depending on how you stay the rest of it. I view the dresses as a t-shirt and jeans equivalent and basically all shoes work.

    3. I don’t have golden goose sneakers and have more prairie dresses than nap dresses. I picked colors that I could wear with black and have been wearing with black tights and Doc Martins this winter.

  15. A friend was the last person to paint her walls a light gray. She is convinced that she does a thing and that is the sign the universe needs to start a new thing. She is wallpapering now. I was coming around to it after the trauma of bad 80s wallpaper removal had faded. Hit pause on this idea? Accept that trends will always be a thing?

    I moved into a “forever” house 4 years ago and painted then (not gray, thankfully) but now everything is seeming like it will never be done or will need a refresh due to wear/tear/scuffs from family and pets. Do people just keep a punch list and have a handyman / painter come to knock out a bunch of items here and there (scrape/paint peeling shutters, re-caulk, etc).

    1. so many questions in the post, so i’ll just answer the wallpaper/trends one: yes, you need to accept that trends will always be a thing. You also need to decide whether you care how on-trend your decor is.

      Paint and wallpaper are easy changes and a good place to do trends, if you like them. So if you want to paint or you want wallpaper, go for it. Then, if it goes off-trend (and you decide you care about that sort of thing) you just repaint or change the wallpaper.

    2. Trends will always be a thing, which is why you should never buy into any home decor trend that is difficult to undo. Popcorn ceilings, textured walls, faux finishes, wallpaper, murals, any paneling that is not super classic or appropriate to the period of the house–all of this stuff is difficult or impossible to remove and leaves walls and ceilings damaged. Paint colors are easy to change. Not so with textures.

      1. This is the lovely thing about living in an old house. The only thing that looks right in my 1909 house is stuff that was in style in the 1900-1930ish era. It feels pretty trend-proof.

        1. I similarly consider my 1902 home timeless, but I’m less strict about the age of the pieces mine range from about 1870-1950.

          1. Oh my stuff is not all antique, don’t get me wrong. But it’s more craftsman style than mid century modern or whatever the latest trend is, because that’s what looks appropriate in my house.

        2. I think it’s not just old houses — pretty much any house is going to look better with finishes and furnishings that at least nod to the original period in which it was built. If you try to go Full Farmhouse on a Mid Mod or vice versa, that’s when things start to go sideways.

      2. Mural wallpaper is actually on-point for my house’s era. I want to install a chair rail though, which I don’t already have.

    3. Pretty much, yes. It’s easier/cheaper to bundle like with like – our painter gives us a better deal if he can do 2 rooms at a time. We have a local place we use for blinds/shutters and they also did 2 rooms at the same time. It also helps to know what you can get for yor $$ – if I have $500 extra to spend on the house that month I might buy high end throw pillows on etsy for 2 rooms OR do a few framed pictures. If I have $1-3k then I can paint a room and put in new shutters, etc. etc.
      For big jobs we budget and then try to do one a year – last year was the roof(s) on our house/garage/shed, this year we’ll repaint and replace all the exterior trim. Typically this is what our tax return gets put towards.

    4. A well maintained home is constantly being tended to. This is just part of home ownership and independent from decor.

      With regard to decor (colors, finishes, furnishings) you need to accept that whatever is currently “in” will look dated in ten years. You can update your home with that frequency. You can accept that a well maintained with dated decor is fine (hint: most people do this). You can develop a style that you’ll love regardless of trends. (This seems like an easy answer but it’s not because: 1. Non-trendy things are difficult to find. 2. It’s really hard for most people to fall in love with a style independent of trends. In other words, we tend to really love gray while it’s in and change our mind when the rest of the world moves on. A home with an architectural opinion -be it mid century modern or Victorian -makes this easier because the space itself is dictating your choices to a large extent. Likewise a significant cohesive antique or vintage furniture collection. )

    5. I love good wallpaper and it’s now much much easier to remove (the pasted kind, even). The best thing is to make changes over time and go for furniture, art, rugs, etc., collected from multiple periods and places–that’s likely to be a more endurable look than something that’s very au courant (says the woman who painted over her painstakingly hand-painted chevron wall–learn from my mistakes). I recommend vintage Turkish, Persian, Pakistani, etc., rugs as an example of something that’s absolutely timeless and goes with a variety of styles. Paint is easy to redo. As for the other stuff–yes, house upkeep is pretty constant, but we don’t hire someone unless it’s well beyond our experience level. So we hired for asbestos abatement, wallpaper installation, and a burst pipe, but not to install butcher block, remove the framing from a demolished wall, to install window treatments or paint, etc. Interest and ability levels will vary wildly.

      1. Agreed. A slowly curated home will age better than one that is furnished all at once. Buy pieces you love and don’t stick to only on trend items. Personality doesn’t go out of style.

  16. Attn Kat – not sure if it’s just me or a bigger problem, but Corporette is loading super slowly the last few days. Like 30+ seconds to load the home page, then another 30+ seconds to view comments. On updated version of Chrome (laptop) and other pages are loading with no issues.

    2. Same thing. The mom’s site loads faster but has the disappearing comment issue (although that seems better today)

    9. Same. Slow posting and glitches and slow loading. No problems with other sites.

    10. Thank you guys for your patience – I just had a convo with my tech guy about it because we’re seeing it on our end too. We have one starting theory and if not we’ll look into things.

  17. A no-paper co-worker takes all of his notes on an ipad that must be his own personal device. We are lawyers. I am sort of intrigued by getting rid of paper, but I don’t want to have a device that gets seized if I leave (or worse: turned over in discovery or scanned and put in a data cloud somewhere per a freeze order or litigation hold). What do you all do? I am a paper fan and usually purge files when I am done with them and keep final records electronically, but I sort of fear digital is forever and also cross-polination with my personal things.

    1. I have a (work issued) Microsoft surface with a pen that I love, I keep my notes in one note and use the writing to text feature.

    2. Get work to pay for an iPad or Surface or similar — they might support that for those reasons! Or your workplace may have apps available that are in a more secure bubble on your personal device, and that may have notetaking apps available in it.

    3. Get work to pay for an iPad or Surface or similar — they might support that for those reasons! Or your workplace may have apps available that are in a more secure bubble on your personal device, and that may have notetaking apps available in it.

    5. Agree with PP’s, get a work ipad! Use it only for work things, not personal. I am nearly paperless and now cannot function without my ipad.
      -I take my notes in Goodnotes (i prefer handwriting with the pencil for a variety of reasons). Goodnotes is set up to sync with my work dropbox account. So every… 15 seconds or something… it saves each file as both a native goodnotes file and a PDF. This way I can retrieve anything on my ipad, from any computer that can access my dropbox.
      -So when my ipad broke (~”was unexpectedly taken away” which seems to be a concern, IANAL) I was able to download PDF copies of all my current docs, print them out, and revert to paper for a short time. I then scanned the paper files back in and added them to the PDF so that I still have a complete digital record.
      -when I got my new ipad, I was able to access the goodnotes files and just pick up where I left off.
      -I believe that MS OneNote, possibly others, can be used on both the ipads as well as actual computers, so you could trade off between ipad and laptop possibly, in a more seamless manner.
      -not a note-taking thing, but work email on the ipad is much easier to see/manipulate vs work email on a phone.

      1. How many gadgets do you all routinely tote around? Laptop and ipad and phone? I am not sure what work travel will look like in the future, but another gadget and cord is not welcome (or for daily schlepping).

        1. I’m the MS surface poster above and it’s my only device. My office has a shocking station, monitors etc, but when I attend meetings I just take the tablet itself.

        2. Pre COVID I routinely traveled with a laptop, iPad, sometimes kindle, and my iPhone. None of these other than the laptop are much to schlep around so the key for me was having the lightest weight laptop with the lightest weight charging cord (I ordered a separate charging cord just for travel that was way, way less bulky and heavy)

        3. I carry laptop, 2 ipads (work and personal) and 2 phones (work and personal). Plus my planner notebook. This is why I use a backpack. I also dont carry cords back and forth, I have a complete set of everything at home and office, including mouse. I only carry cords when traveling.

    6. Look into Rocket notebooks; you take notes by hand and then scan the pages into your computer and the notebook wipes clean

  18. Hello hive! It is our tenth anniversary this June and we are hoping to spend a long weekend in the Berkshires. Does anyone have any favorites to recommend? We like hiking, good food, and nice but not ridiculously fancy hotels. Thank you!

    1. I like Porches in North Adams (next to Mass MoCA, which is a big art museum complex in an old power plant). Tourists Welcome, in Williams, is also a fun boutique hotel.

  19. If anyone is looking for a fun TV rec this weekend, I enjoyed The Tourist on HBO. It’s a Coen Brothers-esque thriller set in Australia. Jaime Dornan and Danielle Macdonald and the rest of the cast were great, landscapes were beautiful, and it held my interest without being too much to process, which is about what I’m looking for in a tv show these days (it’s not really a feel good show though, so maybe pick something else if you’re in the mood for that- Jaime Dornan was also good, but totally different, in Belfast).

    1. I agree! I am watching this right now, after hearing it recommended on NPR.

      I’m looking forward to the next/last season of Better Call Saul in April.

    2. Another rec – my wife and I started The Dropout series this week and it’s really well done. More intense than either of us expected!

      1. I agree the Dropout is well done. I’m 3 episodes in and just feel the stressssssssss

        The absolute best show husband and I have watched during the pandemic is Patriot on Amazon prime. Only two seasons, which is a shame, but they’re two absolutely perfect seasons. We finished it and then immediately watched it again. It’s such a masterful study of characters in a dark comedy setting.

        https://www.amazon.com/Patriot-Season-1/dp/B086VYGMZP

        1. Also enjoying The Dropout (although I enjoyed the podcast more) and couldn’t agree more about The Patriot. SO GOOD. And was gobsmacked when I realized John Lakeman was Gordo from For All Mankind on Apple (which I also highly recommend).

          Also loved The Bureau on Sundance on Amazon: French-language spy series with five seasons so you can really settle in and binge for a while. The ending goes a bit off the rails but it’s still one of the best things I’ve seen in a long time.

          1. I’m the OP of this thread and will agree with the loving The Patriot, For All Mankind, and The Bureau, so I’m going to say we have similar tastes and will check out The Dropout as well!

          2. And by parity of reasoning, I will definitely be checking out The Tourist!

    3. I’d put off watching I Care A Lot on Netflix because the subject matter is so scary to me (guardianship) but honestly, it’s super fun.

  21. A no-paper co-worker takes all of his notes on an ipad that must be his own personal device. We are lawyers. I am sort of intrigued by getting rid of paper, but I don’t want to have a device that gets seized if I leave (or worse: turned over in discovery or scanned and put in a data cloud somewhere per a freeze order or litigation hold). What do you all do? I am a paper fan and usually purge files when I am done with them and keep final records electronically, but I sort of fear digital is forever and also cross-polination with my personal things.s

  22. Just wanted to say thanks to the folks who offered advice when I asked questions about my MIL over the last few weeks. She had been diagnosed with terminal cancer and we had to move her into assisted living, and then into hospice. She passed this week after taking a serious turn for the worse that she couldn’t recover from. We had been told she had a few more months left so her death, while not unexpected, was somewhat sudden, and we’re dealing with that right now. My son and I had hoped to get to see her one last time – my husband had gone by himself to see her twice and we stayed behind so as not to be in the way when she was moving, going to a hundred doctor appointments, etc. Now I feel like maybe not going to see her the last time he went was a mistake, but I know I can’t do anything about that now. I appreciate everyone who helped out with advice and kind thoughts while we were going through this.

    1. I’m so sorry for your loss. Don’t beat yourself up about the last visit. Death is impossible for any of us to get “right.”

      1. This is a beautiful consolation, and I needed to hear this.

        I’m sorry for your loss, OP.

    2. My (local) grandmother-in-law passed while I was in the hospital with her, and a few of her blood-relation grandchildren could not travel in time to see her. She was a straight shooter, and when I expressed sympathy that her whole family couldn’t be there, she said that she was glad they would only remember what she looked like in good health.

      Just an idea to consider, use or discard the concept as benefits you.

      1. Thank you for this. She was not in good shape the last time my husband saw her and he told us, I’m relieved you two didn’t have to see her like that.

    3. I’m so sorry. Please be kind to yourself. There’s only so much any of us can control and death has its own schedule.

  23. Public Service Loan Forgiveness waiver update: my student loans were forgiven this week! I had the wrong type loan and wrong payment plan, am no longer employed in public service, consolidated into a Direct Loan after news of the waiver and submitted the relevant employee certification forms. It worked!

    2. That is amazing! I am so happy for you, and this gives me hope for some friends who are currently waiting!

    3. Wait. Did you not qualify and get forgiven anyway? Or are all those issues systemic errors and you got forgiven because you should have qualified but the errors made by others were hurdles before? (in particular — “no longer employed in public service” and “had the wrong type loan”?)

      1. Under traditional PSLF rules I would not have been eligible for forgiveness although I did work in public service and pay on loans for 120 months. However, for a one year period starting last October, certain requirements are being waived (e.g. having Direct Loan(s), being in an income-based repayment type, being employed in public service at the time of forgiveness, etc.).

    4. Congrats! I also got mine forgiven this year after 10 years of public service.

    5. Thanks, everyone! The PSLF forum on Reddit was extremely helpful in my pursuit of forgiveness. Check it out if you have questions.

    6. Congrats! I know the rule changes have helped several friends of mine as well (one will be discharged 4 years earlier because of the changes!). I received PSLF forgiveness in the fall, and I honestly still don’t believe it!

    7. How long did the process take for you? I’m in a similar boat (wrong loan but still in public service) and I submitted the forms as soon as I could do it.

      1. I consolidated in November 2021. I submitted ECFs in mid-December. Employment was certified in late February. Zero balance this week.

  24. I read a couple of comments recently that have made me wonder how much small talk a manager should engage in with their team. I personally do not like sharing my weekend or vacations plans (or what I did on the weekend or vacation) or significant personal details unless it comes up organically, for example, if my manager or team members are talking about a funny college story, I may share a funny college story. So, I will definitely share things but I do not ask my team what their plans are for the weekend or how their weekend was because I am not interested in sharing that information when asked. I am pretty private, especially after having experienced personal information I shared with a manager circulated around the workplace at a previous job, which was really upsetting at the time and caused irreparable damage. We now work from home 100%, so I do not see my team on Mondays and Fridays anymore and may not even talk to them on either day which is when these conversations would typically occur. I do ask them how they are whenever we speak and follow up if they shared a detail in our last conversation. I get along pretty well with my team and I do not want them to think I do not care, so I am curious. If your manager never asked about your weekend or vacation, how would you feel about that?

    1. I’d think you were just very private and work-oriented. Not my personal style, but a perfectly acceptable style.

      FWIW, I have a standing call with my manager every Monday morning to set priorities for the week ahead and the first 10-15 minutes are always what we did that weekend, what our families are up to, etc. Different strokes for different folks.

    2. I would mostly be relieved. I thought that thread was strange. Let people have their privacy!

    3. I think not sharing anything comes off as private to an extreme – like, what’s the harm in saying you enjoyed the nice weather at the park, or tried a new restaurant, or that your vacation was a ski trip or Caribbean trip or whatever? I would think it kind of odd if my manager was like “see you in a week” and said absolutely nothing about it!

      1. This is where I fall. I share innocuous information and observations with colleagues and acquaintances who don’t need private information about me and save the personal details for my closer friends. If I want to initiate being sociable without inviting TMI, I will ask leading questions “Wasn’t the weather gorgeous this weekend?” or “What did you think of the sportsball game Saturday?” rather than open-ended “What did you do this weekend?” questions. This is not perfect for preventing others from sharing more than I want to know but it provides a good balance of friendliness at a distance.

    4. This is a bit extreme. I’m very private too but I’ll gladly tell my team about mundane parts of my life. We actually just discussed my thrilling plans to go to MUJI this weekend and do some organizing.

    5. To be blunt, I cannot fathom this. I did comment on the other thread noting I am in an industry where relationships mean everything. It is not enough to just be good at the technical aspects of your job. You need to network with coworkers and business partners and make genuine connections with people. This sort of extreme privacy would make you look cold and out of touch with the industry, To be totally honest, you would fail if you took this approach. I totally understand this is not the norm for all places and I am sure there are jobs where you could do quite well with this approach, though I can’t think of anywhere it won’t come off as extreme.

      As others said on the previous post, comes of a little “AAM crowd” like.

      1. If you don’t want to share actual personal information, you can easily make warm chitchat about generic or work-related topics. If you can’t do that, you’re just an antisocial jerk who thinks she is better than everyone else.

          1. Agreed. I’ve watched a colleague in the closet at an O&G company do the “we did this, they did that” dance regarding their weekend plans with their partner, and it’s a fine line to walk.

          2. How exactly is it ableist to suggest that if someone says “what’s up with you” you can talk about the work you are doing? That doesn’t require you to talk about your romantic partner either.

            It’s a catch-22. People don’t want any conversation, personal or work-related, then they quit because they feel dehumanized. You can’t have it both ways, folks.

    6. I think it’s weird. It’s just small talk. It’s what humans at work do. You don’t have to say anything personal if you don’t want to. It’s nice to show an interest in people.

    7. My manager excels at walking this line. She encourages small talk at the beginning of meetings while waiting for others to join, but asks open-ended questions like “Anything interesting going on lately?” or “What are you looking forward to?” which allows people to share to the extent that meets their comfort levels, and can be interpreted to include work-related or personal-related anecdotes as the responder sees fit. I love it and I cherish her.

    8. I think that some people who consider themselves “very private” really just misunderstand the actual depth required for small talk. They are reading more into the situation than necessary. I can talk a TON without saying anything personal. Ask how my weekend went and I will always answer truthfully and will just leave out a lot of specifics. A short example:

      Person A “Good Morning, I hope you had a nice weekend.”
      Person B “Thanks, I did! I got a lot done around the house and enjoyed the weather. I love when it’s warm enough for grilling in March. How about you?”
      Person A “Oh, I had a great one as well. My neighbor got on the grill so I got to enjoy some delicious barbeque without having to clean up. lol”
      Peron B “Lol. That’s the best way to do it, Jerry”

      This is a corny on-the-fly example but it just serves to show that you can have a friendly exchange without sharing any personal details. These social cues are for filling time and creating a quick bonding moment. That’s it. I’m a chipper person so these exchanges, while mostly empty, really lighten the mood.

      1. In my case, it also relates to dismay over trying to “read the room” regarding whether I need to meet the level of detail that colleagues provide, which may or may not be fueled by manager expectations. For example, one of my tenured colleagues who is my assigned go-to for back-up gets really detailed about his reasons for being OOO, including details about his diagnoses and specialist appointments.

        Younger me would have felt pressured by example to meet his level of oversharing, despite not wanting to do so. Older me is comfortable saying I am going to be out for three days on medical leave, without giving details.

      2. +1

        You can share a lot of mundane things without getting into your personal life: I like to talk about what restaurant I tried, the weather and what I did to enjoy it, if I went to a concert, etc. I’m not telling people that we went out to a bar after the concert and stayed out til 2am. I’m telling them I went to XYZ new restaurant, I’m not saying I went there on a front date, I went for a run in the park because it was65 and sunny but not additional details, etc.

        If my manager never asked how my weekend was, what I’m doing, etc I would be very, very put off

      3. I think you probably underestimate how many cultural norms you’re importing and reinforcing though (I can think of a few even for the example you gave). Whether we care about that or not, I don’t know, but it can feel awkward to be the odd one out religiously or culturally in an office where this is constant.

        1. I was thinking about neurodivergent people as well. I am in a tech field and many of my coworkers are socially awkward, some admittedly on the spectrum. I would never think they are “antisocial jerks who think they are better” per the above (and honestly, who is the jerk here, the awkward/shy person or the person who wrote that comment?). They just don’t enjoy chit chat.

          And that is fine. Over the course of our lives we will work with all sorts of people. I would 100% rather work with someone who doesn’t really want to talk about personal stuff than an oversharer, or even worse, a coworker whose leering comments are always borderline inappropriate but carefully defensible, which has been quite a lot of my experience chit chatting with male coworkers.

          Basically, friendly is interpreted as “I’m into you” far too often. I say this as someone who started her career in a male dominated industry in 1987.

          I’m by nature a chatty Cathy, but I really do try to dial it down at work and keep it professional for all the above reasons.

          1. I agree but I think there are two issues.

            1. People who don’t like small talk specifically because it they do not want to share personal details.
            2. People who don’t want to have small at all. Sometimes it’s because they are neuro divergent, but not always. They literally do not want to say any works that aren’t about their direct work tasks.

            My point is for the first group of folks and the point is that small talk doesn’t have to be about personal details.

          2. I agree but I think there are two groups.

            1. People who don’t like small talk specifically because they do not want to share personal details.
            2. People who don’t want to have small at all. Sometimes it’s because they are neuro divergent, but not always. They literally do not want to say any works that aren’t about their direct work tasks.

            My comment is for the first group of folks and the point is that small talk doesn’t have to be about personal details.

        2. Genuinely curious – can you point our which cultural norms are being reinforced? Or how their being reinforced in an awkward way? I don’t think mentioning actions that are cultural is a problem as everything we do in life is cultural to a degree. For what it’s worth, I don’t actually grill and I hate barbeque. I just literally like warm weather in March. Is it because I said house and not apartment or condo? One could easily sub in the term “at home” instead of “around the house”.

          My point is that a lot of small talk is just mad libs that you fill in with some specifics from that weekend. My recipe is: mention the weather, the fact that liked or disliked the weather, the fact that I went on a hike, run, or to a festival and add the ball back in their court. Of course that recipe can vary.

          1. The warm weather example was fine. But that isn’t how small talk goes at my company–here, it is all about the kids, kid activities, etc. Very tough for someone privately going through fertility treatments, wondering if I will ever be able to complain about shuttling my kids around to their many practices. My company tries hard to be “family-friendly” so in a group of new people, the kid topic is frequently used to build rapport. I am not against rapport building, just trying to point out that it needs to be done in an inclusionary way. Much of it isn’t right now, and that ends up having the opposite effect. I am not saying that I can’t/won’t talk about the kids of people I have worked with for a long time–I will and I do care. But it rubs me the wrong way when that topic is used as a rapport-builder in a new group, but it so clearly puts me on the outside, and it is raw right now. I have learned to speak around it, but I simply wanted to agree with the poster about who said that much of small talk is about reinforcing cultural norms.

          2. I do get that everything is cultural to a degree (that’s why I said I’m not sure whether we care).

            Barbecue can quickly become awkward if someone is vegan (whether ethically or religiously); grilling is basically a symbol of mainstream American culture and cuisine; house vs. apartment is a real divide at my office (so many house topics, like renovations, repairs, and yardwork truly don’t apply to the people w/apartments–and most the junior staff rent, and most the senior staff have houses, but not quite all); if there was a religious holiday that consumed the weekend, people have to decide whether to bring it up or not.

            This may all be perfectly fine!!

            But I do know people who avoid these conversations at work because their contributions aren’t quite the expected ones, because their lives and backgrounds look a little different. It can also be kind of awkward as an onlooker to watch people fib when you happen to know they’re basically faking the expected culture. It probably varies by workplace what reaction less expected answers receive! My workplace is genuinely nice people, so I just give vague but true answers, and if people think I’m an oddball, that is fine by me. But I’ve seen PoC be much more careful there.

          3. I guess I should say, I think probably it’s a codeswitching thing that not everyone feels a need to do.

            It both seems normal and advisable to me to learn phrases like “oh yes wasn’t the weather lovely!” instead of “the sunshine really flared up my sun allergy” (a real example), and I think people kind of notice the evasiveness.

            Maybe it is just an oddity of office culture in the end.

          4. @3:11 – this response feels a lot like the sandwich rule from AAM. Like, someone asks what to make for lunch, someone suggests a sandwich, and then commenters pile on about the many reasons that sandwiches might not work for the OP.

            You don’t grill? “oh I don’t have one but yeah the weather was so amazing, I spent a lot of time at Restaurant X’s patio, people had the cutest dogs there” is a perfectly good response that advances the conversation without sharing much…

        3. What cultural norms exactly? The cultural norm that we view people as humans and not robots?

    9. I think it’s actually a business necessity to have non-task-oriented small talk *about work-related topics* in the workplace. Managers should let staff know what’s going on in other parts of the organization so staff can see how their work fits into the big picture. By talking about what other projects they are working on, staffer A can learn that staffer B works on the same types of projects and has insight to share. As an extreme example, different divisions of my org have inadvertently bid against each other on the same RFP multiple times, and it only gets discovered when people are making chitchat about their proposals during unrelated meetings.

      1. Now this makes sense to me. I honestly think my office would love this as compared to forced “fun” gatherings where we’re only supposed to socialize about non-work topics.

    10. Thanks for the responses, in particular the ones that explained how they would feel if they manager never asked. Like Anon @ 1:35’s manager, I open all of our team meetings by asking if the team has anything interesting to share, whether personal or professional. So, it was nice to see that someone appreciated that. When I ask that, some of my team members share personal things but some never do. I do engage in small talk when I speak individually with my team but it tends to happen more organically and I was just curious about asking about their weekend or vacations. I do sometimes take Anon @ 1:35’s approach if I talk to them at the beginning of the week, e.g., “I hope you had a nice weekend,” which allows them to said, “I did, thanks” (what I do when asked) or to provide more detail if they want. This all gives me food for thought.

  25. Fun article that reminded me of some conversations on here about letting go of traditional notions of success: https://www.thecut.com/2022/03/but-youre-still-so-young-book-excerpt.html

    I’m in the process now of trying to parse out what aspects of my ambition come from external ‘shoulds’ versus internal desires, and it’s been very liberating/scary! It’s been great to hear about other women on here who’ve moved to new cities or switched to less stressful jobs and felt great about it, especially when so many of you all are so driven and achieving.

  26. I don’t think you have to ask those particular questions, but I wouldn’t be very happy if my managers and coworkers never asked me anything about how things were going. I think it’s perfectly reasonable to ask about someone’s weekend if you actually listen and respond to the way they answer. If they don’t want to talk about it, they can just say fine and then you move on. If they talk about something relatively impersonal, like sports or a movie they saw, you can engage on that level. If they tell you that their best friend died, then you should also be prepared to engage with that. Different people want to share different things and you need to be able to handle all of those types of people to manage effectively. I know I personally can be all three of those types of person, depending on what’s going on in my life and how well I relate to my coworkers/manager.

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