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Our daily workwear reports suggest one piece of work-appropriate attire in a range of prices.
I understand that the brand name is completely bonkers (Krazy Larry)(!)(!!!), but these pants are great (h/t to Kat for discovering these gems). I’m a fan of the pull-on style because they look smoother underneath a sweater or an untucked shirt and they have just enough stretch to be comfortable. They’re very similar to the Nic + Zoe Wonderstretch pants, although I’d say that the legs are a bit slimmer and the pants seem generally less prone to wrinkling. They also come in lots more colors and prints than the Nic + Zoe pants (of course, some are more office-appropriate than others).
The pants are $119 and available in sizes 0–16; you can find them discounted at Amazon.
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Sales of note for 10.10.24
- Nordstrom – Extra 25% off clearance (through 10/14); there's a lot from reader favorites like Boss, FARM Rio, Marc Fisher LTD, AGL, and more. Plus: free 2-day shipping, and cardmembers earn 6x points per dollar (3X the points on beauty).
- Ann Taylor – Extra 50% off sale (ends 10/12)
- Banana Republic Factory – Up to 50% off everything plus extra 25% off your $125+ purchase
- Boden – 10% off new styles with code; free shipping over $75
- Eloquii – Extra 50% off a lot of sale items, with code
- J.Crew – 40% off sitewide
- J.Crew Factory – 50% off entire site, plus extra 25% off orders $150+
- Lo & Sons – Fall Sale, up to 35% off
- M.M.LaFleur – Save 25% sitewide
- Neiman Marcus – Sale on sale, up to 85% off
- Spanx – Lots of workwear on sale, some up to 70% off
- Talbots – 50% off 2+ markdowns
- Target – Circle week, deals on 1000s of items
- White House Black Market – Buy one, get one – 50% off full price styles
Sales of note for 10.10.24
- Nordstrom – Extra 25% off clearance (through 10/14); there's a lot from reader favorites like Boss, FARM Rio, Marc Fisher LTD, AGL, and more. Plus: free 2-day shipping, and cardmembers earn 6x points per dollar (3X the points on beauty).
- Ann Taylor – Extra 50% off sale (ends 10/12)
- Banana Republic Factory – Up to 50% off everything plus extra 25% off your $125+ purchase
- Boden – 10% off new styles with code; free shipping over $75
- Eloquii – Extra 50% off a lot of sale items, with code
- J.Crew – 40% off sitewide
- J.Crew Factory – 50% off entire site, plus extra 25% off orders $150+
- Lo & Sons – Fall Sale, up to 35% off
- M.M.LaFleur – Save 25% sitewide
- Neiman Marcus – Sale on sale, up to 85% off
- Spanx – Lots of workwear on sale, some up to 70% off
- Talbots – 50% off 2+ markdowns
- Target – Circle week, deals on 1000s of items
- White House Black Market – Buy one, get one – 50% off full price styles
And some of our latest threadjacks here at Corporette (reader questions and commentary) — see more here!
Some of our latest threadjacks include:
- What to say to friends and family who threaten to not vote?
- What boots do you expect to wear this fall and winter?
- What beauty treatments do you do on a regular basis to look polished?
- Can I skip the annual family event my workplace holds, even if I'm a manager?
- What small steps can I take today to get myself a little more “together” and not feel so frazzled all of the time?
- The oldest daughter is America's social safety net — change my mind…
- What have you lost your taste for as you've aged?
- Tell me about your favorite adventure travels…
Anon
I’ve seen several posts lately about how to maximize your routine/time after work/etc. and then came across this Frugalwoods article that was interesting and helpful: https://www.frugalwoods.com/2019/10/30/how-i-try-to-align-my-time-and-money-with-my-highest-priorities/
I know she’s not everyone’s cup of tea, but this article is very light on financial philosophy and heavy on actionable tips for scheduling your days. It was helpful for me so thought I’d pass it along. In my house, we’re working on that division of labor point and it has definitely helped reduce chore-related conflicts. I’m also working on turning down invitations to certain social events, such as random happy hours that take a lot of commute time, because they’re just not worth it for their impact on my schedule (and on my bedtime – sleep is precious!). In contrast, I’m working on scheduling more social activities that correspond with things I want to do anyway, like hiking or going on a walk over lunch. It’s clear to me so far that even relatively small changes to the routine and norms can have a big impact on happiness.
Ellen
These are great alternatives to spend whatever limited free time we have. I watched Myrna do the marathon on Sunday, and saw some places near the 59th street bridge that we can go to meet men that I will show Myrna. If she want’s to go mabye we can schedule a HIVE MEETUP in NYC so that we can all share our stories!
Has anyone any good new ideas for Friday’s? I am taking the day off!
YAY!!
Anon
I like a lot of what’s discussed in this article. While I don’t do the same chores at the same time every week, I have started making a point of scheduling tasks on my digital calendar, which for me achieves a similar effect of not having them on my mind until it’s needed (except for when scheduling, which does reduce the benefit versus always having a weekly schedule where the choice has already been made but the time spent making the choice helps me to actually get whatever it is done). The only one I personally wouldn’t do is get rid of my iron–sometimes I need one, y’know? But hey, if that’s something she doesn’t want, that’s not my circus, not my monkeys.
Anon
I’m currently listening to Laura Vanderkam’s Off the Clock and it’s a similar message with some very good detail and examples. It’s told from a more relatable (to me) point of view. She’s urban with 4 kids. I recommend for anyone who finds the article interesting.
Sharing Labor
A colleague just told me about the Tody app. My husband and I are starting to use it to share labor better (he works a flexible schedule and most things fall on him, so I want to help out a little more, but build it into our “fringe hours”).
Socially Awkard
I’m coming to terms with the fact that I am sometimes socially awkward and not a great conversationalist, both professionally and personally. I have mild social anxiety, I’m an introvert, and I’ve always preferred reading to talking. Sometimes I can’t think of anything to say, and others I’m afraid to say the wrong thing. This is especially true when I deal with people who are more senior to me professionally, and I’m concerned that will hold me back in my career. I’ve started to read Brave, Not Perfect, which I’m really enjoying, and I’d like to read other books that might help me be less socially awkward, a better conversationalist, and a more confident person. Recommendations?
Anon
I really like Crucial Conversations. It’s focused on more serious conversations, but the authors break down a variety of social situations in ways that I found helpful more generally.
Anon
The blog The Happy Talent. Check out her posts on developing charisma to start.
Anon
I loved Quiet. It isnt fully about getting better at conversations but in a weird way, was empowering to just lean into introversion and work with it.
Not a Fun Guy
There are also a lot of great YouTube videos on this. I like Charisma on Command. Not all of it is for professional conversations, but some of it is applicable.
ceej
I liked How to Win Friends and Influence People, specifically the six ways to make people like you. It is old, it is basic, but it’s pretty accurate. The Like Switch is about how to “make friends.” Both contain really formulaic information about conversation and building rapport. Some people have this naturally, some people learn it through their youth. And some of us need some explicit training.
Anon
Over time I’ve learned that sometimes it is actually other people and the environment that are odd , not us, and that in the appropriate environment we can converse just fine. Something to keep in mind
Anonymous
This is a good perspective. I’m an introvert too and have found there are many introverts around us! Look for opportunities to network in an introvert-y way. Is there an activity you can share? A meal instead of a conference hall floor? Sharing a blog post that might be of interest?
Anonymous
Dale Carnegie “How to Win Friends and Influence People” worked for me. The examples are laughably dated but the concepts hold up well.
Unproductive Wednesday
Biglaw advice please: I spend ~100 hours/month on a major single M&A deal as a core midlevel associate, and usually have 2~3 major projects on my plate. Often, I end up taking care of matters that have been neglected by senior associates and junior associates alike (M&A is not popular and we have a talent pooling system so people occasionally disappear from projects). So that it’s usually me and the senior partner running a moderate- to fast-paced midsized deal.
I’ve been told that I do good work, but need to rein in my billing. I feel that it’s partly that I’m maybe a bit of a slow reader (English is my second language) but also partly that others have dropped the ball and left me to pick them up, hence enlarging the discrepancy in the hours billed. What should I do? Is the law firm billable life not for me? I don’t lack for work, but it would get to be more of an issue when I’m a senior associate or junior partner whose compensation is tied to the realization rate.
anon
If you are actually working the hours you are recording (that is, not padding your hours), then I think it is one of two things. Either you are doing work that should not be done by an attorney and the solution is to be more active in delegating to paralegals or other support staff or you are not appropriately describing the tasks that you are doing in your billing entries. It needs to be clear to the client how the time they are paying for was spent and why an attorney needed to do it. If you have a trusted mentor or someone else you are friendly with, ask them how they describe certain tasks in their billing entries.
Irish Midori
This last one about describing billing lines in great detail. I love the mantra “Draft pleadings in New International Version, but write billing entries in King James English.”
Nerdy Bible translation reference, but maybe someone will get it…
Veronica Mars
Ha! Great analogy
Delta Dawn
Love this analogy and will start using it myself! Ha!
Amazing
Seriously though. +1
Not sure about you, OP, but sometimes I wait until the very last minute to release time and while I have timers and a couple of words describing what I am doing, my King James Version entries/my realization rate goes up *significantly* when I update my time narratives as the day goes on or at the end of the day (even if I am pooped and just want to go home) vs. at 11:00 the night they are due.
Anon
Make sure your billing entries have function and value and where possible use a bates range or a date range if there will be a lot of duplicative entries. Also, if your clients use some type of automatic software to review bills, find out what words that software flags and avoid using those words.
I had a client that flagged the word “draft” for some reason. So I had to use “prepare” instead. Let’s say you are reviewing discovery to find attorney client privileged correspondence. Don’t just bill “review discovery.” Bill “review and analyze proposed discovery production Bates numbered 00001 – 002000 to identify attorney client privileged documents for redaction.”
If you are researching a topic, don’t just write “researched non-competes.” Actually, the client that flagged “draft” also flagged “research.” Instead write “review and analyze state case law on non-competes in preparation for drafting motion for summary judgment.” Function AND value.
Anonymous
Try having a conversation with the assigning partner about the budget they gave the client, and ask where you should focus your time.
MJ
I’m a corporate person and I have a slightly different take on this. Some “less glam” M&A deals are both complex and not super-profitable for the firm, especially when you’re dealing with total _hitshow clients and crazy deadlines. This is probably a bigger deal that your firm does not “write down” bills that are above what has been budgeted or agreed with the client. So someone is pressuring you to “write down” your time, because their book or deal was “more expensive” than hoped. And yet, they’re also saying, “do all the things to get the deal done, but don’t bill too much.” This is putting weird pressure on you.
Your post, to me, had two red flags. One–you’re being asked to work on scut work or less high profile deals. While it’s great to be seen as reliable, if you’re working M&A hours, work on better deals that help your deal sheet long term. Two, if you’re getting pressured about your billing, then you need to get an honest review (see other responses above) about whether people think you’re “slow” in your work or if there’s an issue with your firm not properly managing estimating and managing budget as the scope of a deal changes, AND your firm may not allow partners to do write-downs easily
You should change firms. Really. Think about that. You’ll be in demand. Go work on better deals, go where you’re appreciated. You’re busting your buns and they’re telling you to “get the deal done” but “do less work.” These are nearly incompatible in M&A, where deal creep is real and you have to diligence and negotiate until you get things done.
Also, PAGING CBACKSON to weigh in here.
Anon
I have always imagined having either two children or no children, but I’m intrigued by some of the posts I’ve seen here over the years about how having one child can be a good option for certain parents who are really dedicated to maintaining time for the adults. Can anyone who has made that choice speak to it? I’m really curious what the specific benefits are that make one child seem easier than two. Is it the expense? I’m in a VHCOL area and expense is definitely a factor here, but was it actually one of that leading factors for you?
Anon
I’m one of the people who has said that. Finances were a big factor for us, although definitely not the only factor. We’re in a LCOL area, but our salaries are lower than many people here (low six figures combined, not expected to rise significantly vs. inflation). Obviously people who are far less wealthy than us have two or more kids (my coworker supports a family of 5 with a SAHM on a salary of $40k!), but we’d have to change our lifestyle and our first child’s lifestyle and we just didn’t want to, selfish though that may sound. Daycare for one child is more than our mortgage. We have our kid in the most expensive and, in our opinion, highest quality, daycare in our area. We love her “school” so much and can’t imagine pulling her out of it, but we’d probably have to do that if we had a second because i think we literally could not afford to send two kids there. It’s also really important to my husband to fully fund private college for our kids and I’m not willing to sabotage our retirement savings to do so, so having two would require pretty severe cutbacks to essentially all of our discretionary spending so we could properly save for both retirement and college. We’d basically have to cut out travel completely, which is something I really love doing and I think has a lot of benefits for kids. I also think with two kids life would be crazier and we’d want more paid help that we couldn’t afford – currently we just have a monthly cleaning service and that’s fine but I imagine we’d wish to outsource more stuff if we had more kids. Like I said, obviously people can have several children on less money than we have, but to maintain anything resembling our pre-kid lifestyle and save for our kids’ college would be very tough for us financially with two, so it was indeed a factor in stopping at one.
I’m a really happy only child myself so I don’t feel like I’m depriving my child of anything by not giving her a sibling. I love having only one. I love kids but am not really a baby person, and now that DD is a super fun and entertaining preschooler I can’t imagine having a newborn and having to devote half my time to a baby at the expense of my current kid (I know she’d be fine, but it would make me sad). My husband, kiddo and I all love spending time together. I know that will change at some point, so I’m grateful I get to really soak her up while she still adores her parents.
All that said, our family felt complete when I met my daughter. If it hadn’t, it would have been much harder to stop at one. It’s a very individual choice that everyone has to make for themselves.
Anon
Oh and to your question about maintaining time for adults, I definitely feel that’s much easier with one. We lucked out with a kid who’s a great sleeper and has slept 12 hours straight at night since she was six months old, giving us a lot of time off in the evenings. Even if our second were an equally good sleeper (definitely an “if”), the schedules of a baby and toddler don’t usually align perfectly so there would be a lot fewer hours in the day when all our kids were asleep. And DH and I both love spending one-on-one time with our kiddo, which gives the other parent a break pretty regularly. I don’t know that one parent would be willing to wrangle both kids nearly as often. I can only speak for myself but managing a baby and a toddler together sounds a lot more exhausting than just a baby or just a toddler. My friends with two kids seem to do a lot of divide and conquer, where each parent takes one kid, and that means that the parents have less time off from parenting.
Anonymous
Thoughts from someone with 2: strongly agree with this. My husband’s a totally equal coparent and definitely better at handling both kids together solo than I am. When he travels, it’s exhausting for me in a way that life just wasn’t before we had my second. Everything gets so much easier when I put the first kid to bed for the night. And, while he does handle it great and never complains, I feel more guilty leaving him to do my own thing with two kids than I did for one. Also, handing off the kids to a friend or the grandparents to babysit for date nights, etc., is a MUCH heavier ask.
Anon
I grew up with 7 much younger siblings and this seems to be the case no matter how many little kids there are. When there were 5 of them and mom took one to do errands with her, the other 4 would pair off and it noticeably quieter. When there were 4 of them and 1 was asleep, the other 3 played nicely. When there were 3 and 1 was engrossed in some individual activity…
They’re people. Little people with lots of extra needs. Even the easiest kids have preferences, sleep schedules, get bored, need food, need a band aid, need attention, get in trouble, and so on. It seems like it would be easy to add another (and for the most part it’s manageable), but it’s still an entirely other person with their own needs. That affects everything, just like being partnered changes your lifestyle from being single and taking a road trip with 3 people involves more work and coordination than the same trip with just 2 people.
Anonymous
The counterpoint to this was what I’ve heard from my friends when either they only had their first kid or were always just having an only: you are their friend and their companion, as well as their mother, cook, and chauffeur. It is easy to to the last 3 items. But then they want you to play dolls, play restaurant, play blocks, play kitchen, play drawing, play legos and it is great, but they need to interact with someone and they only have you. It was hard on the introverts, who had to be ON or always reaching out to find other moms/kids to have the kids interact with, which they didn’t really love but felt burned out sometimes and maybe that was the answer. I didn’t know if I’d be too burned out to be a good only-child mom and honestly was concerned that I wouldn’t be. Also, I was older when I got married, so I didn’t know if I could even have two kids, let alone one, b/c I started off with a m/c, had a kid, and then have gone on to have another m/c. It has made me so scared to try again (and yet a more frayed only-kid parent who plays a lot of roles in that kid’s life). We were on track to have 2 that were 15 months apart and it would have been nice having them similar enough in age that they could be companions (a cousin has kids 5 years apart that are really like 2 only children, although might not be that way as grownups).
Anon
Anon at 10:48, I think it may be true on average that parents of only children spend more time parenting per child, but I still think that having two children – with all their various needs, as well as wants – results in parents of two or more spending more time parenting in total. I’m a mom to one, but all my close friends have two currently. I’ve spent enough time talking to them and being at their houses to know they have WAY less time to themselves than I do. Some of it can probably be chalked up to the fact that their husbands do less than mine does, but that definitely does not account for all of it. I do spend a lot of time playing with my kid, but when she’s asleep, out with my husband, at an activity or with a visiting family member, I am truly off and able to do whatever I want (well, except leave the house if she’s asleep). My friends who have two just do not have that at all. They get one kid to bed and then the other kid needs something. Their husband takes the baby for a morning but then they’re on toddler duty all day. The grandparents come over ostensibly to watch both kids but then the baby starts crying and the grandparents want to hand him off to mom to deal with so they can focus on the toddler, who’s easier at that moment. It seems like my friends are always “on” in a way I’m not. I’m in no way judging this – my friends love their bigger families and I am very happy for them that they have the families they want, but I definitely don’t think I would be happy parenting two children myself, as someone who identifies as extremely introverted and really treasures time for myself. And anecdotally, only children are typically pretty good at independent play, although this is of course somewhat dependent on your kid’s personality. Mine is good at it, and has been since she was about 12 months.
Anon
“You are their friend and their companion, as well as their mother, cook, and chauffeur. It is easy to to the last 3 items.”
Also, I’m not sure I agree with this. Personally, I find being a cook and chauffeur to be the worst parts of parenting, and being my kid’s friend is the best part. I’m introverted and do need some time completely to myself w/o husband or kid, but I find it MUCH less draining to spend an hour with my kid going on a walk or playing legos than to spend even 15 minutes cooking dinner and wrangling a toddler at mealtime. Perhaps you are right that with one there is more playtime and less logistical stuff but as an introvert I find that downtime can still be downtime even if my kid is there (especially as she gets older and requires less hands-on care). It’s the more logistical parts of parenting that really drain my batteries.
Anon
Time savings of only one child come from:
– Being done with the intense early years earlier (night feedings, diaper changes, potty training, temper tantrums, constantly cleaning up food and toys from your floor, etc.)
– Only packing one lunch every day
– One school drop off and pick up (don’t underestimate the huge time savings here – if kids are at different schools, which they usually are for stretches of 2+ years unless the kids are very close in age – this can be a big time suck)
– One set of afterschool and weekend and social activities to plan and schlep kid to (one day you will get a drawdropping number of birthday party invitations – of course your kid doesn’t have to go to all of them – but you will want to go to some for the sake of your kid’s social connections)
– Only one kid getting sick and disrupting work and other plans while a parent stays home
– Only one education to save and pay for, so parents may have more flexibility in job choices and retirement age
Anon
-Only need enough space in your house or apartment for one child’s sleeping area/belongings/toys/activities
-When traveling, only +1 on plane tickets and activities and no need for a large rental car (though that’s more of an issue from 2 to 3 kids than from 1 to 2)
-Can take child + friend(s) places in a standard car instead of needing an SUV or minivan
-Need less storage space because you can get rid of clothes, toys, and kid gear as soon as the kid outgrows it instead of storing it in case you need it later
-Can tailor choices in activities, toys, snacks, clothes, playdates, etc. to individual child instead of having to figure out options that work for two age ranges/interests/genders/temperaments
-Can accomplish 1-on-1 parent/child time and giving other parent a break simultaneously
-No sibling fights or conspiracies to break up
Anon
I love having just one. Now that she’s a bit older (4) and sleeps decently, I feel like I have some semblance of my adult life back. It’s much easier to have adult time in the evenings and on the weekends. Definitely not a kid-free-life, but when she’s at her ballet class on Saturday morning, I’m in the waiting room reading the New Yorker with a cup of tea, not entertaining a 2 year old and her other parent is doing his own thing as well, not watching the 7 year old. At 4, she can play on her own long enough for me to cook dinner mostly in peace most evenings (or have a conversation with me while I cook, or help get things from the fridge), she can be left with a sitter without much fuss, and she can come along to museums and hikes. I’m looking forward to traveling with her. I feel like with 1 kid, my life was 100% parenting and related exhaustion for a few years but now has opened up, and I see how with more than one kid a lot of that free time would get absorbed by the other kid, who, regardless of age would need individual attention as well.
I’ve made it a priority to have close friendships with other families, so she has close friends who are almost like cousins. We spend a lot of time at each others houses and have traditions that we do with them every year. Definitely not a sibling relationship, but a close one nevertheless, that will hopefully extend through their lives (they will be in the same elementary and probably middle school).
The money is a factor, of course. I’m pretty minimalist with toys and clothes, but childcare, activities (we only do 1 at a time max), summer camps, and college savings add up to a lot. I think if you really really want 2 kids, it’s financially doable especially if they space them out so that they are not both in daycare and college at the same time. I wouldn’t make the decision based on finances only.
Sassyfras
We are one and done and while it wasn’t my plan, I am happy about it. After kid #1, we discussed and settled on this decision for expense and time reasons. My kid is almost 5 and while she’s a lot of work, my husband and I are both still able to maintain hobbies and have enough time/energy to nurture our own relationship. Daycare and now, private school, are expensive but we still have enough left over for vacations, fun things here and there, and to save for retirement. All of these things would need to be sacrificed to some degree if we had another and we are happy enough with one child that it didn’t seem worth it. FWIW, we are both only children and so we don’t feel like we are depriving her of anything.
Anonforthis
If I have a child it will only be one. Partly because that allows for living in a smaller (and therefore more central) home, partly because it makes logistics easier (no worries about having to organise drop-off or pick-up from multiple schools or activities), and also from an environmental perspective. (Aside from the first-instance environmental impact reduction of just having one, it makes travel on public transport easier to only have one small to wrangle rather than two, I think).
Suburban
I decided, rationally, I think, that while our love was an endless resource our time and money are limited. Also, since my three year old was born there has never been a day where I felt like “I’ve got this.” Are there good days? Yeah. But not like “I can handle this AND a newborn.”
I imagine any sane person with more than one child had a day like that. Or maybe my capacity for chaos is lower than that of your average bear? I have a friend with 4 kids ( !) and the chaos in her life would have wrecked me.
Finally, sadly, I had my first at 33. Now I’m 37 and I don’t think the chances of having a second healthy kid are worth the pain and expense that attempting to would cause our family.
Anonymous
We have one and are in NYC and cost was a big issue for us. Combined HHI is now just under 200K (was approx 30K lower when a second child was more possible; son is 7 now). Obviously plenty of people in NYC make larger families work on much less, but it would mean a lot of trade-offs. Beyond that, it was a combination of:
(1) age: I was 35 and husband was 43 when son was born, and he especially was worried about how old he would be before our son was an adult
(2) parenthood was so hard, especially the first year. This was partly due to our circumstances- husband was in a new job after a period of unemployment/changing careers and could not afford to mess up; I had PPA/D; we were all stuffed into a 1 bedroom apartment and had little extra money; no local family; son had several serious health scares in his first 6 months, etc. Once we made it through that period, it was hard to imagine going back.
(3) I LOATHED being pregnant – I was nauseous for 36 of my 42 week pregnancy and hated just about every minute of it.
(4) differing views on the value of siblings – I’m one of 3 and part of a family that is very spread out but gets along really well, while my husband and his sister don’t speak, and she’s left him completely alone to try to care for his aging father on the other side of the country (much closer to her; she doesn’t talk to their dad anymore either). He doesn’t see siblings as guaranteed positives for a child.
Anon
I’m the Anon at 10:23 below, and so much of this resonates with me.
Anonymous
I just read your post and am sending hugs! My ongoing issues with depression/anxiety were actually better when pregnant but came back immediately on birth; hopefully you will have the opposite experience. I can’t imagine being pregnant AND depressed. Please be kind to yourself and take as much care with yourself as you can. It won’t be like this forever.
Anon
Thank you. :) I have a good therapist, and we’re developing some strategies for postpartum, as well as looking at the overarching issues that triggered this (massive family dysfunction that I had been able to manage, sort of, right up until pregnancy hormones).
But going through this AGAIN, with an infant to care for? My mental health and marriage could not survive it.
I really wish people talked about this more. My in-laws limited the size of their families because of physical health issues (multiple c-sections, gestational diabetes, etc.), and I see no reason why mental health should be less of a factor.
Anonymous
Age difference between me and my husband was a factor in us having an only child. My husband is 6 years older than me, so when at 36 I thought seriously about trying for another child, he was already 42 and for him it was a flat no. He felt like he was too old to go through the newborn stage again with another baby, and he was probably right. Also, as more evidence has come out about how the age of the father affects health risk for babies, his age did give me pause.
Anonome
I have a toxic sibling-in-law, and I wholeheartedly agree with this. People planning their family size usually only think about the benefits of additional children–socialization skills, emotional support, etc. They don’t often stop to think “What if a second child ends up abusing my first child?” My husband’s sibling has been nothing but a stressful, expensive burden to him for their entire lives.
Anonome
Oops, forgot to quote the part I was agreeing to…it was “He doesn’t see siblings as guaranteed positives for a child.”
Cb
We are one and done. I’m an only child and my husband has two much older half-siblings so only children seem quite normal to both of us. Honestly, there are lots of practical and lifestyle reasons. Childcare is 25% of our take home salaries with 1 kid, I’m an academic and the career hit feels significant, we have no local family. And I love the fact that we can maintain our lifestyle (social lives, living in a 2 bed flat, lots of travel) in a way that seems more difficult with more than one. I just don’t want to be outnumbered while I’m getting on the bus.
My son is two and is such a fun little person, yesterday we went to the museum and then sat in a cafe and chatted and it was so lovely and easy. I can’t imagine going back to the no-sleep, milk cow baby stage.
Anon
All the +1s to your last paragraph! My daughter is only 21 months but is already such a fun little person and hanging out with her is becoming more and more like hanging out with a friend (a friend whose butt I have to wipe, but still). It’s hard for me to imagine going back to the newborn stage where you give so much and get so little in return.
Cb
Yes, definitely! My son asks me how my day is when I pick him up from nursery and we chat about all sorts of things. Mostly buses, and animals, and whether or not we can knock on people’s doors and reenact the tiger who came to tea, but eventually we can talk about what we are reading and what we are seeing. Some days are definitely hard but I feel like we’re moving through life together. I think with 2, I’d be playing more of a coordinator role.
AnonTechie
I’m in this bucket. For us, it wasn’t finances as much about balance.
We are at ~300K+ HHI in a MCOL city in a country with subsidized childcare. We still spend a bit over 1000 a month for preschool+ sitter combo (that is essential for actually have both parents work FT because preschool ends at 5.30, and most kids are picked up much earlier)
We had our kid relatively young (mid-20s) and while it was 100% by choice, we realize that it forced up to “grow” up real fast.
While we could theoretically still change our minds (i’m 30),we are 1 and done because we realized that a lot of what we want in life – flexibility to live in different parts of the world, last minute travel, jobs that are fun (and because MCOL doesnt come without strings, most of these jobs require travel) , time to ourselves, hobbies and fun family interests – are all easier with one kid. The way we see it, when you have multiple kids, the “pie” representing your time gets smaller, and also needs to be sliced into more pieces.
Oh, and DH is an ambivert and I am an introvert- and both of us work in jobs that require a LOT of interaction with humans, so adding more humans into the mix at home and thus reducing the likelihood of quiet time was another factor
Anon
Pregnant with our first and only.
It’s hard to explain exactly why, except that I’m in my late 30s, have crippling prenatal depression, but our baby is healthy according to all the testing available. We just don’t feel comfortable doing this again, let alone when caring for an infant, let alone when the health risks (to myself and the child) increase so rapidly at this age. Having a second child feels like Russian Roulette.
One of my friends might only have one kid because her own kid is such a good baby. She and her husband are my age, too, and they just feel that a second baby carries a lot of risk, so take the win and enjoy it.
Another Anon
Fundamentally, this is what it comes down to for me. We lucked out with a healthy baby, and a relatively healthy pregnancy — I hated being pregnant, other than feeling the baby kick, and was uncomfortable the whole time, but I was healthy. I had intended to be one and done even before I was pregnant, but my H made some noise during the toddler stage about another and I was way too overwhelmed to even entertain the idea. Now that she’s 5, I think I could manage a baby, but don’t want to risk it and am good with the lifestyle we have. With one kid we are so much more flexible than our friends with more than one, and even after those kids are older, I think we will be.
I actually LOVE little babies, so as much as the day to day sucks, I really do miss having a warm little cuddle bug who was content just snuggling on my chest, i.e., the fantasy baby, aka a grandbaby…heh.
Anonymous
Sometimes when I think wistfully about another baby I consider whether we could handle getting a dog, and that always seems like waaaay too much work, so how could a baby be feasible?
Anonymous
I am with your friend on this. One big reason we are one and done is that once our first was weaned she turned into a wonderful easy baby. I didn’t want to risk messing up our great life by adding another child who turned out to be difficult.
Cb
Right? My kid didn’t sleep through the night until 18 months but basically was a star child otherwise. Breastfed like a champ, was super happy and cheerful. My pregnancy was classed as high risk and aside from 9 months of nausea, I had no actual complications.
Anon
This was a factor for us too. My kid was/is a great sleeper, a great eater, an overall easy and laidback infant and so far seems to be very easy as far as toddlers go. I honestly can’t imagine lightning striking twice and am scared that we’d have a much more difficult baby if we tried to do it again. (My fear is perhaps fed by the fact that my husband is a lot like our daughter – very calm and laidback, and slept through the night very early – and his younger sister is a raging narcissist and drama queen who reportedly didn’t sleep through the night until she was 3.)
Anon
“(My fear is perhaps fed by the fact that my husband is a lot like our daughter – very calm and laidback, and slept through the night very early – and his younger sister is a raging narcissist and drama queen who reportedly didn’t sleep through the night until she was 3.)”
I shouldn’t laugh, but I am, because your husband’s younger sister could be my older sister.
Anon
Oh no, I’m so sorry there are two of her. ;)
Anon
So resonate with the “Russian roulette” comment. I had a terrible pregnancy (kept bleeding randomly and almost went into premature labor at 19 weeks) and had to have an emergency c-section when our son got his umbilical cord wrapped around his neck twice and started going into distress. That came on top of two years of TTC and eight months of fertility treatment. We seriously felt like we had pulled something over on someone when we walked out of the hospital with a healthy baby. We felt like bank robbers who make into the getaway car just as the cops come around the corner. My husband especially did not want to roll the dice again because who knows what can happen the second time? We felt like we should take the win and be grateful for what we got.
Mrs. Jones
We have only one child. Main reason is that I was 38 when child was born and thought that was getting close to too old to be pregnant (although I have multiple friends who gave birth after 40). Another reason is that I had postpartum depression and didn’t enjoy the baby/toddler years so had no desire to repeat that experience.
CPA Lady
The choice for me was never between having 1 and having 2. It was between having 0 and having 1.
What I have observed, and of course this is anecdata and hashtagnotallparentsofmultiples, is that when you have only one child you can more easily fold that child into your current lifestyle in a way that is not feasible with multiples. The more kids you have, the more kid focused your life becomes, simply as a matter of logistics, especially, as others have pointed out, once the kids are old enough to have extra curricular activities/sports.
Ways having 1 has been easier:
– both of our careers have done well, especially my husband’s because I was able to solo parent while he took on a difficult 18 month travel heavy assignment that led to him being promoted multiple times since. No way I would have been willing or able to solo parent multiple small children
– we have the time and money to both be able to pursue our own hobbies
– we both have plenty of time on our own, time together, and time as a family.
– my mom is in her 70s but is willing to babysit, including overnight. I’m not sure she’d be able to babysit multiple kids.
– traveling with one kid is generally pleasant
– chaos is minimal. this is huge for my mental health. the house is relatively tidy, I never have to listen to kids fighting, etc. I love when my sister visits with her kids, but it’s a totally different feeling in the house, and one I don’t think I’d do well in permanently.
– daycare is comparable to a mortgage payment per child. I’m saving myself tens of thousands of dollars and I live in a LCOL where daycare is “cheap”.
Ways having 2 would be easier (maybe?):
– I can’t tell my daughter to go play with her sibling when I need a minute. I do feel guilty about this, but I suppose it’s not a bad life skill to learn to be comfortable just hanging out by yourself. Plus, having a sibling is no guarantee of anything.
Boston Legal Eagle
“when you have only one child you can more easily fold that child into your current lifestyle in a way that is not feasible with multiples. The more kids you have, the more kid focused your life becomes” – I definitely agree with this, as a mom to 2 and an only child myself. With more than 1 kid, I think you have to accept and embrace that your life will be kid-focused, at least for a while. Having 1 allows you to maintain more of your pre-kid life, with just another person to love and spend it with (assuming no health issues, special needs, etc.)
I know that I got a lot of advantages in life by not having siblings, but even beyond that, my parents (especially mom) were able to still fulfill their ambitions in a way that would have been more difficult with more kids. And I know she would have been unhappy with more little kids to deal with, which isn’t good for anyone.
To give my own personal story, I’m happy being an only child now as an adult but still wanted more than 1 kid. Some factors that definitely helped me to go for more: Pregnancy was relatively easy, birth was also relatively easy, our first slept well early on, my husband is truly hands-on, we both have well-paying jobs making daycare expensive but not overly and we have family nearby to help. These are huge advantages that make having a second easier (not easy!)
Anon
This has been my experience as well. I can’t really talk about this with my friends because it sounds smug, but I have listened to them talk for hours about all the stuff they can’t do with kids and how much kids have changed their lives and that’s just been the opposite of my experience. My one kid didn’t really change our lives at all. Admittedly, she is an easy, neurotypical child, and we weren’t doing a lot of late nights at bars or dining at Michelin-starred restaurants before she came along, but we do everything we did before she was here; we just have an tiny person along for the ride. (In fact, I think the family member who was most affected by her birth was our small dog, who often came to dog-friendly restaurants and on vacations with us pre-kid and is now left at home like most pets :P)
To some degree though, it’s also about your attitude. A good friend stopped traveling once she got pregnant with her first. She was scared to fly while pregnant and never attempted a plane trip even when she only had one child (she has three now) because she was scared of disrupting other people. I just never felt that way…if my kid cries, she cries. We do our best to avoid it, of course, but it’s not like every adult on an airplane is always perfectly behaved either. Kids have a right to exist in the world and those who want to avoid them can choose options (like adults-only resorts) where they’re expressly prohibited.
Anonymous
I have four and find this thread fascinating. I have several friends who are one and done, but not by choice. I totally see and agree with all the reasons listing why people chose to have one. The biggest difficulty I have with having four is money. Time and attention are also limited, but I feel we give each child what they need and I appreciate the independence and responsibility my kids have because they are made to fend for themselves and take care of each other to some degree. It is money I feel and worry about the most. And that is with a HHI of appx. $350k.
Anon
Thanks for all the great replies so far, everyone. This is encouraging and it makes having one child sound actually fun.
Anonymous
I read somewhere, decades ago, that some people don’t even consider adults to be true parents until they have >1. Having read this now, I can totally see why some people see it that way.
FWIW, single, never-married, mid-30s, and those people probably don’t even consider me to be an adult b/c I just go to work and come home and don’t even have a pet.
Anon
I think that attitude is sort of insulting. Two easy kids might be a lot more manageable than one kid with special needs, for instance. And even a parent of only one easy child still shares in so many of the universal aspects of parenting and definitely makes sacrifices for their kid.
Anon
I posted a couple of months back about a former friend who didn’t consider me to be “really married” because I got married later in life than she did. It’s more about status signalling than anything – if you don’t do life exactly their way, it doesn’t count.
Anon
Right, I think those people probably assume that any way that’s not their way is a judgment on them. It’s really pretty a narcissistic way to view the world.
Anonymous
Whatever floats their boat. I’m sure the Duggars think we’re all amateurs.
1 Child!
We’re sticking with one child! Parents of more than one frequently end up doing the ‘divide and conquer’ thing on weekends – one takes the kid 1 to sports, while the other takes kid 2 to a birthday party, etc. My husband and I can trade off with our one, or leisurely walk to his soccer class together and hang on the sidelines while we watch him play. Our 1 is an easy kid – he’ll sit nicely at fancy restaurants and eats pretty much everything, will chill at a museum with me for an entire day, and I love spending time with him. But he also goes down early and then we have multiple childfree hours at night.
anon
I have one and don’t intend to have another child.
– Finances are a big factor. I work at a small-ish company and don’t have paid leave or good benefits. Daycare costs a fortune. My kid has special needs, which leads us to spend thousands of dollars in medical bills every year (to meet the deductible for things covered by insurance and to pay for services not covered by insurance).
– Health risks are another factor for me. Pregnancy was extremely difficult for me. I was sick for 8 months, and I ended up on a month of bed rest for preterm labor and had a preemie. I feel like another pregnancy would be rolling the dice. DH isn’t interested in adopting. (See also, Finances, for both a high-risk pregnancy and any alternatives.)
– I’ve always felt happy to be in the “new” stage of childhood. My kid is 4, and it gets better and better all the time. I don’t want to go “back” to nursing or having a toddler or any previous stage, although I enjoyed them at the time.
– I don’t feel any need to “give” my child a sibling. Part of my kid’s special needs is that he’s sensitive to loud or irritating noises and to other people being in his personal space. He certainly wouldn’t appreciate a baby or toddler. He’s also aggressive toward other people, including children and babies, so having to protect a sibling from him would be an enormous source of stress. If I really wanted another child, I’d have to think about these things carefully and work with his team of therapists and healthcare providers. But either way, I am not motivated by the idea that a sibling would be a gift to my child.
– We have a great balance of kid-focused and adult-focused activities. Our weekends are usually a balance of family time, errands/housework, kid-centric activities, and things my husband and I enjoy (either together or alone).
– It’s just easier to meet the needs of one small person than two. It’s easier to get one kid ready to leave the house, to address the feelings of one kid, or to plan an outing or vacation for just one kid.
Anon
Money was actually one of the biggest factors for us in deciding to be one and done, along with my health. I had an easy pregnancy and actually loved being pregnant, but had some complications afterwards that would make future pregnancies high risk. My husband and I joke pretty regularly – except it’s not really a joke – that if we won the lottery and he could carry the babies we’d have a bunch more kids. In reality, even with unlimited funds and my husband being able to have the babies, we’d probably stop at two. But I think we’d definitely have two instead of one if not for those things. But we have to live in the real world. He can’t have babies and we don’t have unlimited financial resources, so one is right for us.
Lots to Learn
I know this isn’t exactly what you asked, but I’ll chime in because it seems like most of the responses you’ve received are from parents of younger children. My two daughters are in their late teens/early twenties now and I am so glad we have two. Yes, the expense is more, but it’s outweighed for us by the fact that our girls each have a friend and a confidant who loves them unequivocally and can understand what they’re going through with friends and with parents (!) in a way that my husband and I can’t. They provide advice and support to each other and hang out together (especially on vacations and holidays) so it takes a little of the pressure off of us as parents. I know not everyone has kids that get along this well, so YMMV. I also like that the burden of dealing with us as we age will not fall on just one person. While my brother and I aren’t supporting our mom financially, we are supporting her with help, financial advice, social opportunities, etc. and I would really hate to go that alone. One daughter is in college now so I’m sort of getting to see what it’s like to have an only child with the younger and it’s definitely worse for her. We are focusing almost all of our attention on her and despite our best efforts, I know she’s not enjoying that focus. I’m afraid that if I’d been a parent of an only child, I’d be pouring so much effort and focus into that child, she’d be the worse for it.
Senior Attorney
And just as a counterpoint again, my only is now 33 and I still have no regrets. I had one full brother and two half-siblings and I wouldn’t give you a nickel for the lot of them.
Alanna of Trebond
My sister and I are a pair and this is our relationship. We are in our late 20s and early 30s. It is the best relationship of my life. Definitely most siblings do not get along as well as we do, but it has made taking care of our parents and life generally much easier. My grandfather was one of 6 children (much less likely today!) and they also got along and had a great relationship (now many of them have passed away). My mother and her sister get along less well, but there is also a very significant age gap between them which maybe makes it harder for them to be as close as we are. My mother also saw that gap in her own relationship with her sister, and specifically cultivated the relationship that my sister and I have, which is one of the things that I am the most grateful for in my life.
Anon
I have a sister – a narcissistic drama queen – and have accepted that a lot of helping parental units in old age will fall to me alone. Having multiples is no guarantee that you get help on those things.
Anon
“I know not everyone has kids that get along this well, so YMMV.”
It’s a total crap shoot and you have no way of knowing if your children will be close or hate each other or somewhere in between, so I guess I don’t think that should be the only or main reason a family decides to have multiple children.
January
That’s definitely an interesting point. As an only child, I didn’t mind not having siblings growing up because it didn’t seem like anyone I knew particularly *liked* their siblings, but later on I made friends with people who were very close to their siblings (most often pairs of sisters), and I kind of regret not having that. But as everyone else says, there are no guarantees.
Anonymous
And don’t forget there’s always the risk you plan for 1 and end up with 2… (I was a surprise twin. Ultrasounds weren’t apparently as accurate or as frequent back in the 80s and I was “hiding” behind my brother until 5 weeks before my mom’s due date. And we were born 2 weeks early, so my parents had 3 weeks to adjust to the idea of having 2 kids instead of 1. I also have a friend who was trying for a third and ended up with twins.)
Anon
This was also a factor in us not going for a second. If we’d gotten surprise twins the first time, we would have managed. But even if we temporarily eliminated all savings, including retirement contributions (which is scary!), we literally could not afford three in daycare at once, so I would have had no choice but to quit my job and stay home with them. I like my job and had no desire to be a SAHM, so this was something we thought about when deciding to be one and done.
Anon
We have an only child primarily because we had fertility challenges and didn’t want to go through fertility treatment again, but that in itself was a choice, and so I say we have an intentional only.
I was very sure that it was the right choice when my son was younger (he was high-needs and was a handful just in general). Now that he is older, I have some regret about not having a second child. Not so much that I am constantly sad about it, but if I could go back and do things over again, I would have had another child when my son was 4 or 5. Mostly this is about me feeling sad that the “kid” days are over and we are now in teenagerland and life without a child at home is looming, and I’m not sure I’m ready for that. One of my friends refers to this as “letting your hormones do the talking” and I think that’s fair (these feelings really kicked in when I hit perimenopause and knew definitively it was no longer my choice to have another child – it just wasn’t going to happen). But it’s still how I feel. Truth is, it’s easy for me to Monday-morning quarterback it now, but back when he was 4 or 5 I was barely hanging on by my fingernails between him, managing my career and trying to also have a marriage and time for myself, etc. and can’t imagine what it would have been like to have had another baby. For the record, my husband only wanted one from the jump and was clear about that and is delighted we will be done with child-rearing in just a few more years. Good news is, my son is a good kid and has lots of friends and the advantage of having him in daycare from an early age is that he learned things like sharing, taking turns, etc. right at the beginning. We also have clear expectations and boundaries for him and I think that helps also.
I will say that compared to people I know with 2 kids (and definitely with 3 or more), we did not have to immerse ourselves in the child-centered life the same way. Our son traveled with us (much cheaper when you only have 3 seats to pay for and everyone can fit in one hotel room), went to restaurants and cultural events with us when he got old enough to manage his behavior, etc. I don’t know that our lives got upended the same way (or maybe not for as long?) as people who have more than one child. Also, being totally honest, I don’t really love kids. I love my kid. I don’t love most other kids and I definitely don’t enjoy being around lots of kids. Kids are fun in limited doses but even with my son I had a limited tolerance for “let’s play toy trains for hours;” I was good doing that for awhile but having to fill whole days of activities with him when he was a toddler/preschooler was not easy for me. I also hated being pregnant and I hated the baby phase – the day he was fully potty trained was one of the best days of my life; I just did not like being a slave to someone else’s bodily functions like that. To me, ages 9-12 were the golden years – my son was old enough to dress and feed himself and be a real person with opinions and likes and dislikes of his own, but he was still sweet and wanted to spend time with us. Teen years are turning out to be more challenging but that was expected.
I don’t have an answer for anyone else, just an answer that worked for me. I am glad I had my son but most days I’m also glad I don’t have another child to take care of. I also have my moments of sadness that he’s my only one, but at this point all I can do is own my choice and be grateful for what I have. I will say if anyone has their heart set on having more than one and really has to fight with themselves to accept having an only, have the other child if you are able to. I think that kind of really deep regret is hard to live with over time.
Kate
I want to offer a counter to the argument that “there’s no guarantee siblings will be friends.” Of course that’s true. I know plenty of adult siblings that aren’t close, or even actively dislike each other. But for the first 18 years or so, when they are both living in your house, they will have an otherwise unobtainable bond. They will be young kids playing and sharing and hitting and fighting and laughing together. They will be preteens and teenagers ignoring each other and curious about one another and learning from each other and hanging out together and fighting with each other. They’ll be together through their parents’ ups and downs, through family crises and changes, etc. They’ll have the shared experience of growing up with that set of parents in that household.
So yes, there’s no guarantee they’ll be best friends at any stage. But they fill a place in each other’s lives that is almost impossible to replicate with anyone else: they grow up together.
I am not saying everyone should have 2+ kids. There are plenty of reasons not to, as mentioned by many smart posters in this thread. But I just have never understood the argument about them not necessarily being friends. That’s not really the point of siblings.
Anon
I’m an only child and mom of an only child and I do agree with what you said. And even once they’re out of your house, they will have a shared responsibility for their aging parents. Yes, one sibling can choose to shirk that responsibility and some definitely do, but if you have two children the odds are much better your child will get to share financial and emotional responsibility for elderly parents with someone else – since the odds of an only child having someone to share it with are zero. I think there are pros and cons to all family sizes.
Anon
There is no guarantee that siblings will equally share in caring for their aging parents. In fact, I think that’s exactly the point a lot of people are making.
Anon
I completely understand that. But there is a non-zero chance they will (in fact, based on the people I know, I would say there’s a good chance they’ll share, if not entirely equally) and a zero percent chance an only child will have a sibling to share that burden with. Like I said, I had one child by choice. I obviously don’t think it’s a bad decision to only have one if you feel it’s right for you. But I think there are certain advantages to all family configurations and potentially sharing the burden of aging parents is one advantage of a family setup that involves more than one child.
The original Scarlett
I would add too that an only child isn’t per se going to deal with their parents alone. My husband is an only child and we are dealing with his parents together. Of course there’s no guarantee your kid ends up coupled, but it’s probably as statistically likely as having a sibling who equally shares the burden.
Anonymous
So…my brother and I physically hurt each other so bad at different points in our childhood that our parents had to take us to urgent care. The fighting was not good-natured and fun; it was terrifying at times. I really don’t have good memories of blanket forts or pillow fights or any of that stuff with my brother. He had mental health problems as a child that only got fully diagnosed when he was an adult, and he was a scary kid who took a lot of his anger out on me. We really had no bond as children and have no bond as adults. We almost never communicate and I am sure once my parents are gone, we will never speak to each other or see each other again.
I guess I would like to understand more about what you think the “point” of siblings is, because I certainly don’t get it. My husband is an only child and didn’t grow up having to protect himself from his sibling, and seems happier for it. Before anyone says “well, that’s your story because your brother’s mentally ill, that doesn’t happen to everyone” – it happens to some people and my brother’s extreme bipolar disorder is something he was born with. It wasn’t something anyone could have predicted and back when we were kids, it certainly wasn’t anything my parents were able to manage.
Senior Attorney
Again, experiences vary wildly. My brother and I grew up in the same household and my relationship with him was a total nightmare from Day One. It goes beyond not being friends. We are estranged now and even as kids never hung out together at all. Sorry, but no bond.
And his only contribution to my aging parents is that he continues to receive an allowance from them (well, now just my dad) at age almost-60, which just adds to my stress as the sole caregiver.
So again, YMMV.
Anonymous
I guess your parents are lucky that they had two, and he is not their only.
Senior Attorney
Haha, right? There’s that…
Anonymous
Not all siblings are the type of blessing you describe. My sibling was manipulative and horrible from an early age, and was a big contributor to the nightmare that was my childhood. I would never wish a sibling like her on my own (only) daughter.
Anon
Guys, nobody here is saying people shouldn’t have more than one kid. I’m sensing defensiveness here at the end of this thread about the sibling issue! But this is a thread about choosing to have only one child and I think it’s pretty obvious to most people that siblings can, and often do, have close bonds.
Anon
“But for the first 18 years or so, when they are both living in your house, they will have an otherwise unobtainable bond.”
My older sister and I had an ‘otherwise unobtainable bond’: she beat me mercilessly, for her own sick pleasure, threatened to kill me hundreds of times, literally tried to break my neck, and told me that I was insane and that I was going to spend my life in a psychiatric institution. I was a dumb kid so I believed her, and spent my life in a suicidal depression.
Anon
I agree with you. Not all siblings will be close, and some will be at estranged, but if you only have one child there is no chance that your child can have that close bond. I literally cannot imagine my life without my brother. We just spent three days camping and hiking together and we travel together numerous times in our life. He is the person who knows me best in this world. He’s the one person I can asked to help with anything, and he’ll help if at all possible (he just drove a U-Haul across country to bring me some stuff for my parents. I know no one else who would do that for me.). Did I luck out in the sibling lottery? Maybe. But I hope to have two children so that they’ll have the possibility of having a similar relationship
529 accounts...
Ladies, I’d appreciate any insight into choosing who should hold a 529 account. We don’t contribute to on (at our income level, any extra goes to our retirement) but a grandparent would like to contribute for our two daughters and is wondering who we would prefer to be the account holder?
What have you all done? FWIW, with a HHI of about $200k we don’t expect much need based financial aid for our kids outside of loans….
Anon
My understanding is it doesn’t matter who the owner is, a 529 with your child as the beneficiary will reduce your child’s financial aid dollar for dollar until it’s used up. So I think you owning it or the grandparents owning it has the same effect.
Fwiw, you might be eligible for some aid on $200k at elite private schools, unless you have massive non-retirement savings. You definitely won’t get aid at public universities.
Anon
I would set it up yourself and have grandparent make the contributions. Check on the minimum opening deposit though – our accounts through Vanguard require a minimum $3000 opening deposit (not sure if that’s true for all 529 plans or if it varies by state). With our Vanguard accounts, it’s easy for family members to make contributions online without our involvement.
Anon.
That’s definitely Vanguard/state specific. We opened a 529 for our son with I think $100.
Anon
+1 We use our state’s official 529 plan and it only requires $10 to open an account.
Anon
In some states (VA, NY, others?) you get a state tax deduction for contributing, so it’s worth looking into that.
anon
Yes, we live in NYS. Grandparents live in another state, so they will gift us money for 529s and then we make the contribution ourselves so we can take the state income tax deduction.
Anon
Would second this – it can be really helpful at tax time, and even something, especially if you won’t qualify for financial aid, now, will be really helpful down the road with the power of compound interest.
Anon
Yes and it’s not just coastal blue states. I live in a very red Midwestern state and we get a hefty tax credit. It’s the main reason we contribute to a 529.
Anonymous
If I could gently suggest considering your state’s 529 plan? It doesn’t take much and you could be missing out on some decent STATE tax savings. I understand there are a lot of reasons to prioritize your retirement/ debt payoff etc–but as little as $100 a month can make a huge difference in the long run. Just something to think about.
Anonymous
Yes, this.
We just broke the $200k HHI mark last year but we have been contributing to our son’s 529 since he was born, just $50 a month at first. We did that when our HHI was less than half of what it is right now. We save for retirement too, as well as have emergency savings but it’s pretty great that over the years, those $50 a month contributions have compounded into over $12,000 he can use for college right now. We’re ramping up the savings to $200 a month this year as college is just around the corner and that won’t significantly impact our retirement savings. I am going to be gentle also but – you are correct that your HHI will mean your kids will not get much, if any, college aid. We’ve made it clear to our son he won’t have enough in college savings to pay full freight anywhere he wants to go (even smaller state schools); our goal was to save some money but we think it’s important he works and gets scholarships and has skin in the game to pay for college. But having SOMEthing that’s there for them so they can at least pay for fees and books will be helpful for your kids and for you. You should run your numbers again; there’s probably some money you can free up to contribute to a 529 for each child.
Anon
You can give your children assistance with college without saving it in advance, especially on that kind of income. Our HHI is $150k and we currently pay $20k/year/child for daycare. If we don’t inflate our lifestyle (which we don’t plan to), even without saving ANYTHING, we’ll have at least $20k/year to give each child for college, which is close to the full cost of attendance at our state schools. I think a lot of people here don’t appreciate that daycare can cost more than in-state college tuition.
Anonymous
So this is a legitimate question and not snark, but – I am just curious how the math works out on paying $40k/year for daycare on a HHI of $150k vs. having someone stay home (doesn’t have to be the mom). I say that as someone who definitely did not want to be a SAHM myself but probably would have done it if our daycare had been that expensive…which, to your point, I had not considered how expensive daycare is these days in larger communities. We live in a MCOL city and 14 years ago my son’s daycare was $725/month, which we thought was expensive. OP also posted below that they live in California so my point about “trying to save something” is moot, because with the cost of California housing, taxes, etc. I believe 100% that all their money is all allocated, with no wiggle room. Especially if they are in L.A. or the Bay Area.
Anon
We both make ~$75k with good benefits (almost free health insurance, generous retirement match etc) so the math would not come out in our favor to have someone stay home, plus neither of us wants to stay home. Our area is pretty LCOL so we’re doing fine and actually saving for college too, but I certainly understand why someone on a similar income couldn’t afford to save for college, and I don’t think that implies they will give their kids $0 for college, because they’ll have all that daycare money freed up.
OP
Thanks for the replies thus far, very helpful. And point taken about opening an account even though contributions may be small…I think I may look into doing that.
Our family and grandparents are all in the same state (California), so looks like I may want to do some state-specific research.
Anonymous
Definitely research your state’s laws. In Pennsylvania, you can take a state income tax deduction for a contribution to any 529 plan (not just Pennsylvania’s plan). This means that I found a state’s plan that performs better and set that one up (Utah has a great one). Also, it does matter whose name it is in. The plan I went with (don’t know if they are all like this), but the person whose name it is in can change the beneficiary.
Anonymous
You aren’t saving at all? I find that really surprising.
Anon
It depends on where they live, but in a HCOL area it’s not surprising to me. Taxes, housing and retirement contributions would eat up a huge chunk of a $200k salary. I’m of the mind that it’s a better gift to your children to save for your own retirement than to pay for their college. They can take loans, get merit scholarships or decide to go to an affordable school for college. They can’t get loans to take care of their elderly parents and if you end up getting dementia, there aren’t really affordable options for care.
OP
Yes, this is exactly our reasoning in prioritizing retirement over college savings. It is a stretch for each of us to put away the maximum 401(k)/equivalent contribution each year because of taxes (high in California), housing (also quite high), plus our own student loan payments and daycare for two kids.
Anon
You’re doing great OP! You will also save a lot of money when they’re done with daycare and can probably put some of that money into college savings if you want. It’s ridiculous to suggest you have to start saving for college the day a child is born, even on an upper middle class income.
Brooklinen sheets
Are these sheets worth it? I desperately need new sheets for my king sized bed and will either order from here or hit up TJMaxx/Homegoods this afternoon. I have a 14″ deep mattress and have had issues with fitted sheet not staying on in the past.
anon
I did not love mine at all. I thought they were not very soft and even a bit scratchy. I was seriously not impressed. I’d love to hear if others felt the same because my podcasts go on and on about them.
Suburban
Rave reviews over here. My snobbish mom said the sateen -ish ones were her favorite ever. The regular cotton ones, which my husband loves, did take a few washes to soften up though. I like them,but my sheet preferences stop at clean and white.
no
I love mine. The first morning I had to like drag myself out of bed because I was so comfy. I don’t know if it matters which type you get, I went with the lux which I think is the middle tier.
The original Scarlett
I didn’t like my set, they ripped in 6 months. I like nice things and they didn’t seem particularly luxurious (kinda scratchy, at least the ones I had), but I’d try another hipster brand like parachute because vulnerable to podcast advertising.
Anon
I swear by Wirecutter’s reviews and ended up getting the LL Bean Percale sheets instead of Brooklinen (we hate sateen). Highly recommend, and I think they’re cheaper than Brooklinen. Still expensive, but totally worth the cost. They are the only sheets me and my husband both like, they stay on our deep fitted mattress, and sleep cool.
Anon
+1 to wirecutter and those sheets. I ended up getting rid of them due to a bed bug issue (yes I know its not necessary but we got the bugs right when we were about to move and I really, really didn’t want to bring bugs to a new home), and went with the budget wirecutter recommendation (the good threshold sheets from Target), and I have loved both.
Anonymous
I slept at my parents’ house a few weeks ago and liked the sheets so much I checked the tag before leaving. Theywere the LL Bean sheets.
T
I’m pretty picky about sheets and I honestly love the Threshold Performance sheet sets at Target. Great price, thick, crisp sheets; the best part is that on the king sets they put a tag in the middle of the top and bottom edges that says “top/bottom” so you know which side goes where – always tricky on a nearly square king!
Anon
They have those tags on the other sizes too, and it’s the most genius thing ever. Why don’t all sheets have that??
Also, I’m not super picky about sheets, but I think the Target Threshold ones are pretty good!
MJ
I love these sheets and have had them for years–recommend the percale ones. they’re crispy, they wear like iron, and they sleep cool (plus they have the little labels).
Ouch! That hurts
Just switched to Sheex. Amazing. I have bad wrists and fitted sheets have really been hard for me to put on our thick mattress. These are amazing.
Anon
I’m South Asian, my husband is white. We have boys. Last night, we were having a conversation about the kids, and my husband mentioned that he is worried about their futures because they will be white men and nobody wants to hire white men anymore. I pointed out that white men seem to be doing just fine and that equality (or something even approaching equality) can feel like discrimination when the playing field has been so uneven for so long. I’m honestly so surprised that he expressed this thought. If he feels this way (favors Elizabeth Warren and Kamala Harris, canvassed for Obama and Hillary), I can only imagine how a lot of other white men feel. I’m not ready to drop it…it really bothers me that he has this perspective, but I’m struggling on how to address it.
Monday
I think the points you made were great, and I wouldn’t be ready to drop it either. (I am white and think his statement was ridiculous.) Maybe show him some of the studies that demonstrate how people perceive equality as discriminatory against the dominant group? For example, I’ve read that when shown a room that is 50-50% men and women, most people estimate that it’s majority female. I’m sure there are similar findings on race.
Others will have more helpful suggestions I’m sure.
nona
+1
Also – your kids will have other attributes (other than white and male) going for them, right? They’re going to be smart and considerate and understand the failing (at a particular task) is part of life so they can figure out how to pivot when they don’t get that thing they want. And they are going to do what everyone else does and figure out how to be flexible because who knows what skills the job landscape will value in 20 years?
For H – it’s a reminder that his sons will (hopefully) have to compete on a more level playing field. If they are good at what they do, they’ll still have room for achievement.
Monday
As to the “more level playing field”…the cynic in me wants him to look at the vanishingly small percentage rate of change in positions like corporate management, tenured professors, and law firm partners. If representation is only improving at a snail’s pace, how would it skew against white men by the time your sons are adults?
But this message is basically “don’t worry honey, our sons will still have tons of unfair advantages as white men” and that’s probably not what you’re going for.
OP
What’s insane is that he has watched me work like crazy to climb the corporate ladder…and he has seen people who casually tell me that I’ve advanced because they wanted a woman or minority in the position (because obviously it wasn’t my merit). We all have moments when we think/feel/say stupid things. But he should know better!
anonymous
White males will always a place of privilege in society. Unless it’s on another planet somewhere like that Star Trek TNG episode where women were in charge.I remember watching a Louis CK stand up years ago where he said that if you’re a white man you’ll do just fine in any time period in history. Definitely a bothersome perspective, but sorry no advice on how to address it.
Anon
And Louis CK is the perfect embodiment of that!
anon
As a white woman with white sons (no daughters)… uggghhh. We all worry about and get protective of our kids, but his concern is ridiculous. I don’t necessarily think that convincing him he is wrong will be a fruitful effort, though. Maybe this is an opportunity to point out the value in raising children who are capable of working with all different sorts of people–at least that’s constructive.
Anonymous
I am confused by your husband’s stance – your boys are biracial. Unless they look 100% white and people wouldn’t know that they’re half South Asian without being told?
Anon
+1 to this. I am also South Asian with a white husband, and my son is biracial, not white. He has an Indian first name, which I insisted on specifically in part so the world would know he was biracial (I am fair skinned and while my son doesn’t look white per se, people might think he was). Confused by your husband’s question.
OP
They have European names, and most people would assume they are white. They don’t look South Asian at all.
Anon
Even so, I assume they will disclose they are part South Asian. And there are ways to show that on a resume, like by joining minority organizations within their field. So I don’t think your husband’s statement is accurate for a number of reasons.
anon
+1. Your sons are not white. They are biracial regardless of whether they are perceived to be white, though of course being perceived as white is its own form of privilege for POC.
Anon
That was my first thought. Your boys will have a very different life experience from him because they, unless you are incredibly fair for a South Asian, will probably not look white when older AND they’re being raised in a dual heritage home, so their perspective on life will be different, and tbh, bad people will approach them differently when learning their heritage.
I am honestly disturbed that your husband said your sons will be white men, is he trying to erase their heritage?
Also, his statement is ludicrous, the literal statistics are objective about that. Until a white male felon has worse hiring outcomes than a college educated black or hispanic male, I would proceed to role my eyes at every mention.
OP
No, I don’t think he’s trying to erase their heritage. They’re enrolled in Indian dance class and language lessons, and he’s the one who takes them most of the time. We’ve taken them to India several times, and he’s been enthusiastic about it, even when he could have asked for a more cushy beach vacation. He happily deals with Indian relatives who visit for weeks at a time, which is SUCH a cultural thing and most definitely not easy for most Americans to handle. But I do think he’s being an obtuse white guy right now.
The kids are going to largely travel through life as white men, even though they really aren’t. I think that’s what he was getting at.
Anonymous
I’m the Anon poster from 10:03.
Reading your additional comments, I think I know where your husband is coming from, even if I think he’s definitely being an obtuse white guy. Your boys will be fine. Even if they look white and have white names, they’re still half-South Asian and if they’re in touch with their Indian heritage, they’re still on the diversity tally! (I say that a bit tongue in cheek, but that is kinda how it works…)
What I think your husband is grappling with is that his white privilege is being called out everywhere in public media, and he’s highly uncomfortable with it because until now, he’s never had to deal the thought that his type (white male) isn’t good enough by default. And I think it’s easier to project this onto the future of his sons, instead of acknowledging how his white male privilege got himself where he is today.
anon
this is such an odd statement to me (that they will “travel through life as white men”). I’m the PP with the biracial son and I don’t for a second imagine my son to be living life as a white man – he is biracial, with strong ties to his Indian heritage. Even if your sons look white, why would that mean they would always be treated as white men? For example, I know mixed race black/white individuals who look white, but they would never characterize their experiences in life consistent with being white people.
Anonymous
I can totally see what that would make you crazy, but from a trying to be a good partner perspective, I would try to approach this from a standpoint of being curious about his feelings. I would assume this comes from some place of hurt for him, so (if I was able to be charitable and loving) I would want to know more about that so I could be supportive and loving. I would not assume that you can change his mind or that it is your job to; free yourself of that burden.
Anonymous
I think it’s good for them to compete on a more level playing field. Here’s an argument that I think he could get his head around: After all, they should want to be recognized for their effort and ability, not because of the race and gender privilege that white men enjoyed before. Nobody wants to go through life wondering if they got to where they are just because of their skin color…right?
Anonymous
Your kids won’t be white in many situations.
Discuss
This fear is ridiculous and you should 100% push back and force him into deeper discussions surrounding race.
As a contrast – I have a black son and live in literal fear of the day he learns to drive a car or is old enough to run around with groups of friends alone at night. He’s also super smart and I know that many people are going to view any of his achievements as a result of affirmative action of some sort. I once had someone tell me how easy life was going to be for my son because he was black and how he’d be able to get any job he wanted and I’ve never spoken to them since.
Davis
I’m searching for a therapist in Austin, TX. I prefer the Westlake area, but appreciate your general recommendation for great therapists skilled with depression. If you have a non-recommendation, that helps too, since finding a good match is exhausting and really important. Thanks in advance!
Anonymous
I saw Ricardo Ainslie for a number of years and found he was a good fit. He was at 2222 and Mopac when I saw him 10+ years ago; I have no idea where he is now. Good luck.
Davis
Thanks!
Anonymous
Are you a lawyer? If yes, Diana Reinhardt might be a good choice.
Davis
Thank you!
FFS
Due to some bad scheduling on my part, I’ve got house cleaners coming 5 times over the next two months. I’ve never had professional cleaners, and they’ll be here two hours at a time (two people). I feel like I should have them do more of a deep clean in a few areas as opposed to a general clean, but suggestions on how to structure those visits?
FFS
Oh, and it’s a 4 bedroom, 2 1/2 bath ranch. Three kids 4 and under, one cat.
Anonymous
Two people with 2 hours will barely be able to get through cleaning your kitchen (wiping surfaces, scrubbing sink, mopping floors, wiping microwave and stovetop — not cleaning the oven), bathrooms (toilets, sink, shower/tub and mopping) and vacuuming/mopping the floors in the balance of the house, so I disagree with the recommendation that you’ll be able to get one additional “deep clean” task done per visit on top of a general cleaning.
I do suggest you talk to your cleaners on the first visit and get a sense for whether they’re open to rotating deep cleaning (in lieu of a whole house clean). I think it’s much harder to manage deep cleaning if you’re not at home, and it’s more challenging for the cleaners because they can’t get a good feel for your preferences. For example, what do you expect from a bathroom deep clean that is over and above what they would do in a general cleaning? Scrubbing grout? Wiping down walls?
We have a cleaner come every two weeks (same cleaner for 11 years — she brings two helpers and stays for about 2 hours), and she does a fine but not excellent job. There are certain things that she will never, ever notice and do on her own — like wiping finger prints off the light switch plates. I am completely satisfied with the set up because I know that she will get our house to a decent baseline clean and her work frees us up to take care of things that bother us – like taking a magic eraser to kid hand prints on the stairwell.
Anonymous
With two hours and two people and that size of house, you will probably get the bathrooms cleaner, floors vaccuumed and washed, kitchen wiped down and rooms dusted. We try to ensure that toys are put away (tidying) so that the cleaners can focus on the cleaning not moving things out of their way.
You could ask them to strip the sheets which is a time saver because you just need to put on fresh sheets when you come home. I”m particular on how the beds are made up so I have them strip the sheets but not put on new ones.
If you want a deeper clean, you will need to purchase additional time.
FFS
Well, my thought was to use those visits for the deeper clean. Like on visit 1 they focus on just the bathrooms, visit 2 hit baseboards, visit 3… And maybe that’s not doable but I’ll talk to them about that at the first visit.
Anonymous
We have our house cleaned every two weeks and at 5 visits in two months you’re roughly at a biweekly frequency. I can’t imagine letting bathrooms go any longer than two weeks. Maybe schedule one or two of the visits as deep cleans?
mascot
To maximize their time and make it easier for them to thoroughly clean, make sure that all the clutter is picked up before they come. Id make a list of certain discrete tasks that they can add in – dust ceiling fans, clean smears and fingerprints off doors/cabinets/light switches, clean all inside windows and open to wipe out the space between the screen and window pane, apply polish to wood floor, wash baseboards, etc. If there are rooms that you don’t use much, have those cleaned only 1-2 times.
Even with 2 people, 2 hours isn’t a ton when you have to clean bathrooms and the kitchen plus do floors so you may not be able to get a lot of deep cleaning done in any one visit.
SSJD
Recommendations: choose areas you want them to deep clean at each visit. One day it can be the kitchen: include oven cleaning (you might need to run a self clean cycle before they arrive), refrigerator clean out, cabinets, spice drawers, pantry shelves, dishwasher maintenance cleaning, etc. Another day have them focus on bathroom deep cleaning including inside medicine cabinets, shelving, etc. You can have them move every piece of furniture in the bedrooms to clean under things and wipe down all walls and baseboards. Other things: polish silver, dust bookshelves by removing all books and dusting under them, do a bleach maintenance cleaning on front-load washing machine, ask them to change sheets on the beds. You can have them clean out your diaper champ or the inside of garbage/recycling bins in the kitchen.
divorce
Last night my husband (together 9 years, married 3) asked me for a divorce. I feel pretty blindsided, and like an idiot for staying and trying to work through things when he cheated last year. Apparently it’s taken me too long to move on from that and he’s tired of being “punished” and feeling unappreciated.
I’ve already got a therapist and am not worried about finding a lawyer, but would appreciate any advice from this community of strong, experienced women about what else I should be doing right now, or for processing this sort of thing when it comes as kind of a shock.
Anon
Make copies/records of all your bank statements and any other assets ASAP. Keep these documents at work or anywhere else that your husband can’t access. Don’t try to hide anything but also make sure he’s not hiding anything.
Try to talk to him about an amicable property settlement even though you’re mad at him. It’s really for the best in the long run.
You need a good attorney.
Anon
I’m so sorry. I know this is just a small part of it, but please don’t feel like an idiot for staying and trying to work through it. Even though it didn’t work out, there’s value in giving it a try and now you can move on with no “what if”s about what could have been if you’d stayed. Hugs.
lsw
+1
Also, I am very confident that at this time next year, you’re going to look back at this period as painful but ultimately liberating. You’ve got this, and you deserve to be happy. Hugs.
Monday
+1. My husband also dumped me 3 years in, and I can relate to feeling like an idiot. In my case, he had sort of been telling/showing that he didn’t want me for a while, and I was trying to work through it “with” him. In retrospect, and in anger, I often wished I had peaced out immediately since he was going to bail anyway.
That said, you are not an idiot. When you take a vow, it makes sense that you’d uphold that through some hurt and try to maintain the relationship. That’s why I did it at least. As an added benefit, you will never have to wonder if you should have given it more time or more effort. He has made the decision for you. He will have to carry it, and you won’t.
I echo the financial and legal basics. Call on your wise friends/parents/family members who have level heads when you don’t. Delegate someone to tell everyone what’s going on if you don’t have the heart to do it yourself. Wishing you lots of comfort and peace. Something much better is on the other side of this, I can tell you first-hand.
Lilliet
+1
And there is nothing wrong with taking more time that he expects to recover from his indiscretion. If I were a betting woman, I’d bet that he’s using these reasons to cover for something else. This is not, “your fault.”
Abby
Hugs from an internet stranger, I’m so so sorry.
Anon
So sorry to hear this, I went through the same situation (with about the same timing, 9 years in got asked for a divorce and he had cheated about a year or 2 prior). It sucks! However, now being on the other side 4+ years out, I am so much happier. I look back and realize how much I had changed and withdrawn from my normal self. Focus on yourself, focus on your friends, and don’t beat yourself up over what you could’ve done differently. You’ll get through it and will hopefully be happier on the other side.
Vicky Austin
I’m sorry to hear that. You are not an idiot – you are much stronger. It takes so much strength to stay and figure it out. I’m sorry your husband didn’t appreciate that and felt “punished” instead.
Anon
Hugs. A year from now everything will be so much better. Give yourself time to feel all your feelings, and they will pass.
anon
Hugs. You’re not an idiot. I’m about a year behind you (spouse disclosed an affair earlier this year, we’re trying to reconcile now) and I would not be surprised if my spouse ultimately asks for a divorce for the same reason. Maybe it would be prudent for me to file now, but like others have said, I know that in order to move forward with no regrets I have to give this marriage my best shot. It may not work, but at least I will know that I did everything I could. If my spouse doesn’t do the same, well, that’s not on me.
anon
If aren’t already a regular reader of Chump Lady dot com, check it out. She also has a book called Leave a Cheater, Gain a Life. Highly recommend.
anon for this
Thanks for this.
Anon
I’m about six months out from a separation (divorce will be finalized any day now). I also stayed after a breach of trust, and then felt blindsided when he ended things. I was surprised to find that while it hurt, it did not hurt in the way it had when our issues first came to light. I think my heart and subconscious had been preparing me for this. It was a relief not to have to live waiting for the other shoe to drop constantly. It was also a relief to finally be able to share everything with my closest friends. I was able to stop pretending that my marriage was the same as it had ever been. I am okay. Way more okay than I anticipated six months ago. You will be too.
Anonymous
I’m really sorry. Lessons I learned from my parents’ divorce:
– Watch what you say and to whom. Stay off social media. It can and will bite you. Have a trusted friend monitor and make copies of anything he posts.
– You need copies of everything. Taxes/bank statements/etc.
– Don’t leave (move out of) the residence.
– Expect he will come and go when he wants to take things — move things/paperwork to a trusted friend’s home unless and until you change the locks.
– Get a lawyer today. Seriously. Don’t wait until later in the week or tomorrow. You need legal advice (can you freeze accounts? change locks, etc.?) right now.
– Don’t assume he’ll change his mind and it will all work out. (I’m not saying you want it to — but my dad thought it would all be ok and she would settle down and then she took literally all of his clothes, checked out books with his library card and ran up fines, everything from little stupid things like that to big things. Obviously extreme example but people can get crazy.)
– Take time off work to deal with this — these first few days are critical.
– Take care of yourself. The only way out is through.
anon for this
I’m so sorry – hugs to you.
I’m you a year ago. I stayed with my husband after he cheated a couple of months ago and am struggling to move on – meanwhile, he is already feeling I should forget the painful past (translated – stop questioning him about it) so we can proceed to “the best years of our life”.
hello
I’m so sorry. Hugs and love from this internet stranger.
My advice… allow yourself some time to grieve and wallow (don’t feel like you need to be okay immediately), and seek out the friends or family who are the most supportive to be there for you. I’ve been through something similar, and it was most helpful to find the 2-3 friends who loved me unconditionally and could provide level headed support to help me process what was going on. Stay off of social media or significantly limit it.
Senior Attorney
Oh, big big hugs to you!
I know it doesn’t feel like it now, but he is doing you SUCH a huge favor! A year from now things will be SO MUCH BETTER! That was one of my mantras when I was going through my divorce, along with “the only way out is through,” and “I just have to feel like this until I don’t feel like this any more.”
Also make sure you have enough cash on hand to get you through. Don’t be shy about withdrawing from joint accounts — plenty of time to settle up when the dust clears.
If you are in L.A., I will buy you a drink, just like the woman from this place who bought me a drink the night my divorce finally settled. (*waving if you’re still here!*)
ATL Anon
If you’re in Atlanta, I’ll buy you a drink. Been there.
KS IT Chick
Emporia, KS, here. Not likely you’re here but if you are, we’ll hit the pub.
divorce
OP here…thank you all for your kind words and internet hugs. They’ve been a bright spot on this extremely tough day, and I appreciate it so much.
Hollis
Are any ‘rettes heading to the NAPABA conference in Austin this week? This is my first year there. I’d love any advice on what women typically wear at this conference – business, business casual, dresses v. Pants, etc. Thanks!
conference
I am! Usually business casual. Dresses or pants are totally fine. You’ll see some men in suits and men and women wearing blazers, but business casual works fine. Maybe I’ll see you there :)
NAPABA
I am as well! I usually go pencil dress, mid or kitten heels (flats in my bag) and a necklace and a ring. If I wear a sleeveless pencil dress I’ll throw a jardigan over it. This is my third year and my company sponsors, it’s a pretty good conference. Rette meetup while we are there in Austin?
Anon
Anyone care to share opinions on the recent evolution of athletic shoes/sneakers?
My last pair of sneakers were about three years old and were Brooks addiction, recommended by my podiatrist. I didn’t work out as often as I intended and I didn’t wear them as causal wear so they held up a long time.
Over the last couple of years I’ve noticed sneakers/athletic shoes are less rigid on top – the uppers are made of very flexible knit materials. I bought an inexpensive pair from Target (Champion) to try them out and, combined with my orthotic, they are actually more comfortable than my old Brooks.
Questions
1) is this a style over substance thing? Is this style supposed to be for kicking around and not for working out? Like, is this just the marketing influence of Allbirds?
2) does the fact that I use a custom orthotic mean it doesn’t matter as much which shoes i put it in?
I don’t have the same podiatrist any more and the one I have now I don’t see as often, so I was hoping some of you who are big athletes could offer some opinions.
Anon
Link to the actual sneakers I bought.
Check out this item at Target https://www.target.com/p/women-s-freedom-2-knit-sneakers-c9-champion-174-white-7/-/A-53243322
I should also add, I don’t run. I walk on an inclined treadmill and do a weights routine.
Anon
As long as you’re not putting your orthotic into a stability or motion control shoe (ie Brooks Adrenaline, Ariel, Asics Gel Kayano or the like), you’re fine. The shoes you got at Target are probably a baby step above flip flops in terms of support & stability, so likely no worries there.
The knit upper that’s become popular is lighter and wicks water/sweat quicker than older shoes. I really like them for actual working out. The upper keeps the shoe on your foot but isn’t supposed to provide any support. The difference between a casual sneaker and one actually designed for running (or whatever sport/workout they’re designed for) is all in the footbed and sole.
Anonymous
Runner here! I have noticed this of my actual running shoes (New Balance, on which I put ~500+ miles before replacing them), and I like it; the uppers are lightweight, comfortable, and move with my feet. However, a lot of this depends on your preferences. I don’t think there are any hard and fast rules for buying athletic shoes, other than the basic rules of thumb: does it fit well (half a thumb-width of space at the toe), does it chafe, do you have any other pain (foot, ankle, knee) after using them for your normal exercise?
If these shoes are more comfortable with your orthotic than your old ones, I say go for it! At that price point the only thing I would really be concerned about is durability. If you have to replace them three times in the same timespan in which you’d replace a similar $60 branded pair once, try and get the $60 pair.
anon
I’m not sure how the orthotic changes things, but my concern with cheaper shoes would be the soles. A lot of those knit sneakers — whether C9 or Skechers or whatever — have these weird foam soles that are almost slippery and don’t have as much traction as a more expensive sneaker that (hopefully) is still using rubber. On a treadmill, I wouldn’t risk it.
nutella
Running shoes are different from casual sneakers. Casual sneakers have been a thing for at least 15 years, so this definitely isn’t a new trend. What I think you are describing is a sort of hybrid shoe.
Running shoes are often a bit sturdier on top for support while running, so you don’t roll your ankle, etc. I think this is what you are trying to describe. That being said, there are definitely running shoes (Nike flyknits or Allbirds, for example) that have a lighter, softer upper, which definitely straddle the line between the casual out-and-about sneaker and the running shoe. Those don’t have enough support for me so I would never wear them running, but some people do. I wear those more for weekend wear with athleisure, like going to barre class or running errands. (I do lift weights and will wear these shoes for that but that’s because you want a sneaker lower to the ground and not so cushy and thick.) These shoes often come in a less flashy color scheme to sort of blend the line between performance and looks, depending on what you want to do. (In contrast, right now, you’re going to be hard pressed to find a super supportive women’s running shoe from Brooks, Saucony, etc. in a wide selection of neutral colors. There may be one and then there will be nearly-neutrals that just can’t help but have pink on them!) And then finally there is the casual sneaker that you wouldn’t want to work out in. Think the Converse or Adidas Stan Smith.
As to your questions, it depends on what you want the shoe for and your individual needs. Do you want to run in them? If so, you need something supportive and I’d recommend bringing your orthotic to a running store and consulting with them. If you want something more casual, you can look at the hybrid shoe I described or the outright casual shoe. Note that for some people a Stan Smith is never going to be comfortable, even for super casual weekend wear, so they go for the orthotic in a hybrid shoe because the only other option is full on trail running shoes. Again, it is really down to how you want to wear the shoe and what your comfort needs are.
JuniorMinion
There are different kinds of shoes for different purposes. For lifting, hard soled shoes (think Chucks, Vans, Wrestling shoes) are recommended. You don’t want any sort of pitch in your shoes nor do you want any sort of spring as this can sometimes cause form issues and instability. For cross training you probably want some sort of metcon / crosstraining shoe (nike metcon, reebok makes one, nobull) – these are much sturdier side to side while allowing you do lift in them because the soles are harder and less cushy than running shoes.
Depending on what kind of lifting and / or workout split you are doing I would get a decent midrange crosstrainer or running shoe for the walking days and a pair of chucks for the lifting days.
Anon
Do you think it’s intrusive or inappropriate to send emails after normal business hours? I work for the state government, everyone I work with is exempt but works 9-5 (or less) normally. For the last few weeks I’ve been in charge of a huge project that’s requiring me to work lots of nights and weekends. Lots of my co-workers are involved but not working on it to the degree I am – think 20 different people are contributing pieces but I’m responsible for finalizing and putting together all those pieces. I got chastised by boss this morning for emailing someone at 6:30 pm last night. He said I need to stop bothering people outside of normal work hours, and he also mentioned that he feels “guilty” when he gets emails from me in the evenings. My reaction was honestly just wtf. I’m sorry me working long hours is so hard for YOU (didn’t say that, obviously).
I know sometimes people who work long hours are doing unnecessary work or inventing fake urgency, but trust me that’s not the case. Most of the year I’m very happy to be a 35 hr/week employee, but we’re facing a very real external deadline here and the work simply won’t get done without me putting in extra time. Even with working as much as I am, I feel like I’m sort of half-a$$ing things.
anon
Your boss is being unreasonable and demonstrating that he is clueless about the actual scope of the project, I’m sorry to say. (Been there, done that, have the t-shirt.)
I would be having a sit-down with him about timelines and expectations for this project.
anon
You can put in extra time without sending non-urgent emails after COB. Just draft the email when it’s convenient for you to do so, and schedule sending for 9am the following morning (or save as a draft and manually hit send when you arrive the next day). Problem solved.
FWIW, in my nonprofit org it’s common to send non-urgent emails after COB, and I wish my boss would tell people to stop! I always check the messages because they could be urgent, and then when it’s not urgent I have to remember what action to take the following day, etc.
Mrs. Jones
Ask a Manager answered this question today.
Clementine
This is a ‘your boss’ thing.
I’ve worked in a similar career path and last night was sending emails until around 10PM, then started again at 7:30AM. Things need to get done.
There is one (ONE) outlier who freaks out if I email ‘his staff’ after 7PM-ish. Yeah, sometimes I time the 3AM emails for 7AM so I don’t look crazy (this happened a lot when I had babies who didn’t sleep), but I don’t think a 6:30 email is something I would even blink at.
The conversation with your boss needs to be what you’ve said here. ‘I don’t feel like I have enough hours to do this time sensitive thing if I’m only working between 8-4. I don’t think we can let this slip and I understand that as a salaried worker, part of the deal is sometimes working longer hours. If you’re not comfortable with me sending emails after 6PM, how do you suggest I handle this?’
Anonymous
I don’t think it’s weird to send emails at non-business hours, but then again, I’m in consulting. The only time I *do* have to sit down and write/reply emails is usually early in the morning before 8 or after 5 when I’m not on calls or meetings… If your boss is really unhappy that you’re sending emails after hours, you could just draft them when you can and automate the emails to be sent at exactly 8AM or 9AM or whenever your official business hours start.
Anon
6:30 pm is not unreasonable– I will say though that when I receive emails sent after hours, I normally read them and if they require an immediate response, I respond. If not, I deal with them in the morning– but they are more likely to get forgotten/lost in the mix because they didn’t make it onto my to-do list.
Seafinch
His reaction strikes me as a bit odd but in my federal government (law) work place we have a work-life balance policy which is always enforced (although the degree varies with changing Chiefs of Staffs). I had one COS, who would walk the halls at five and say, “Sorry, your work hours end at five and you need permission from your supervisor to stay. Hate to break it to you but you aren’t that important!”. He was very congenial and had to take a hard line because our attrition due to burn out was high. My current office has some high profile files that definitely have people working past normal hours and the people govern themselves. Can you set a send time on the emails so they get delivered at 0800 or something? That is something many of us do.
Anonymous
I feel like the answer here is to work less as you’re obviously not being recognized for working more and actually being criticized for it. Maybe talk to your boss about reorganizing the project or extending the deadline or assigning work to someone else for the VERY IMPORTANT reason that you don’t want to DISTURB anyone with emails outside of your obviously VERY STRICT 9-5. I mean, embrace it. Really.
Anonymous
I share your wtf sentiment. It’s on them not to check email if it’s going to stress them out and culture supports going dark. But because it’s your boss…
If you’re using outlook, just write up all of your emails but then have them scheduled to send the next morning.
Anon
Honestly, I’d just side step the whole issue and time the emails to send at 8am. If people won’t look at them until morning, what does it matter if they’re sent when you press send or first thing?
Beth
This. Learn how to time the sending of the emails on Outlook.
Anonymous
Did your email ask for an immediate response? Maybe specify that you can discuss tomorrow?
I’m in biglaw but my assistant works 9-5. When I first started working with her, she would get SO upset when I sent her emails after hours – she would come in frantically explaining that she didn’t know I’d emailed her… when of course I know she doesn’t have email access after hours. I explained, when I’m working late, I need to get these tasks out of my head or else I’ll forget them, but I don’t expect a response until the next day. I also started specifying “please start in the morning” in my emails.
Anonymous
I don’t think so, but obviously it is for you because your boss has told you to stop.
Anon
Just compose the emails and schedule them to go out the next day. Win-win.
Cb
We’ve been having discussions about this within my department and people are pretty divided. For some, after hours email is performative, for others, it is helpful for work-life balance. I work a slightly shorter day and deal with admin things in the evening as a result, which works for me. I wouldn’t want someone to feel like they had to respond right away.
I would love to just queue up everything to send at 8am but I can’t seem to make it work with my phone.
Telco Lady JD
I think that this is ridiculous.
But. Is there a way to send the email via a timer? So that you can cross it off your list, but the email won’t show up in someone’s email inbox until 9:00 am the next morning? If they’re not going to read it until then anyway, it’s not like you’re losing time – AND it’s a relatively low impact way to keep your boss happy.
(This all assumes that you’re keeping track of your total hours and getting credit for them some other way than by sending out emails outside of normal working hours.)
anon
I think the biggest question is: are you expecting people to respond after business hours? Are you asking them to do something right away?
Anon
I think having a boss push back against evening email is incredible. You can do your work whenever you want, just delay-send the emails in outlook or send them to yourself and then forward them all out each morning. Or as a compromise, offer to send them whenever is convenient for you but put either (need response tonight) or (for tomorrow morning) in the subject line after the actual subject, so people know how to manage their own lives and work.
If people aren’t getting the work done by the deadlines you need, that’s a different problem that email won’t fix, so if you need your boss’s help enforcing deadlines, ask for it.
anon
What should I wear to dinner with my boyfriend, his boss (partner at a law firm), and his boss’s wife? It is at a nice steakhouse on a Friday night (but not immediately after work). This is not a special occasion, and I’ve never met the boss or his wife.
Anonymous
I’d wear a sheath dress and “pretend” you’ve come straight from work.
Anon
Black slacks, cute sweater, sparkly earrings.
Anon
Is it a blazer required kind of steakhouse? If not, nice dark wash jeans, leather booties, and a pretty sweater, with dangling earrings will work well.
anon
This would be my response. My city is casual, though, so an outfit like this would be perfectly acceptable, even with lawyers who may be more dressed up having come straight from work. If people dress up more in your city, then a sheath dress or slacks may be more appropriate.
Anon
Yeah, I’d assume the reservation is around 7, give or take, so I think I would wear something work appropriate. Pencil skirt & blouse, sheath dress, etc, and say you came straight from work.
Small Law Partner
I think where you live matters. I recently had a dinner like this. I am on the West Coast, and wore skinny jeans, rothy flats, a distressed T-shirt, and jardigan (what I wore to work at a law firm). It would have been super bizarre to show up in a sheath dress or pencil skirt, particularly on a Friday.
Ellen
If youre going to a steakhouse with your boyfreind’s boss and wife, figure out how old and healthy the wife is before you just show up. If she sees you as to cute, she will likely see you as potential for your boyfreind’s boss to ooogle and that could be bad for your boyfreind, b/c the wife could poison the boss against your boyfreind just b/c you are too cute. Therefore, it may be helpful for you to dress more like a librarian (plain white or blue top with a midline skirt that is NOT at all above your knees. Flats are good even if you are short, b/c the last thing you want to show off is your legs. If you have glasses, be sure to wear them, NOT contacts. This way, you are presentable but NOT threatening.
Routine Maintenance Checklist
I’ve found I operate best when I have checklists in professional settings, so I’m wondering if I can use the same trick to organize my home life.
Any suggestions/resources for a starter list of routine “life” maintenance? I can think of a bunch of the more obvious things (annual physical, teeth cleaning, renew car registration), but would love to see suggestions for some of the less obvious things. Goal would be to put this in a Google Doc or something and review quarterly.
anon
The Spruce has some good checklists for home maintenance tasks.
Anon.
I keep a separate category in Google calendar for these things (but theer is a standard Reminder category, too). For things like paying property tax or pay off credit cards, I have that as an additional appointment in my calendar with several reminders (one week out, 3 days out, 1 day before, day off).
Anonymous
I have lists of all of the personal tasks I need to/should perform annually, periodically, monthly, weekly, and daily. I have used them to create what essentially constitutes a daily planner. Basically, I thought through all of these tasks (health, car, home maintenance (go room-by-room), pets, social, financial, fitness, personal care, etc.) and then assigned them a frequency and then a day (weekly) or a date (everything else). I assigned most items to the same date every month (say the 7th). So if I need to get my vents cleaned every six months and my oil changed every four, I set vent cleaning for April 7 and October 7 and oil changes for February 7, June 7, and October 7. Weekly tasks got assigned days (clean baths on Wed; yard maintenance on Sun). I made checklists by category and by month (same tasks, different view), monthly calendars, and daily pages that contain granular checklists for daily routines (aspirational) plus space to assign additional tasks. I check in with it daily. I try to knock out as many items as possible on the 7th (or the nearest Saturday) and then distribute the rest of the month’s tasks across other dates if they don’t happen then. Some things have natural rhythms (gutter cleaning in December and May; dogs’ annuals when due), so they got assigned first. Then I tried not to overload any particular month.
This has worked well for me, but when I sat down recently to try to figure out how to accomplish some home improvement projects, I felt overwhelmed by how busy my life looks on paper and have procrastinated adding project schedules.
Gail the Goldfish
Does anyone have one of Boden’s silk button-down shirts and have you tried machine-washing it on delicate, as opposed to handwashing per the instructions? Did it turn out ok? I just got one and love it and want to order in more colors, but not if I actually have to handwash it.
Anon
How is the sizing and fit on it? I’ve been looking for something like this but I’m rather small in the shoulders and bust and most similar shirts look enormous on me.
Anon
I’m wearing “The Silk Shirt” today. I’m a pear with small shoulders, 5’5”, 138lbs, generally XS/S in top and 6 bottom. I got size 4 for the shirt and it fits perfectly.
Gail the Goldfish
I am basically the same as this.
Jeffiner
I have one, and it does fine on the delicate setting. I hang it to dry. It does gets very wrinkly and needs to be ironed.
anon
Flannel sheets — worth it? And if so, which ones should I get? Now that November is here, I am all about making my life as cozy as possible.
I love my Threshold sheets, but I’ve noticed that as the weather gets colder, they are COLD when I first get into bed. They eventually warm up but man, I don’t like getting into a cold bed! I also don’t want to overheat in the middle of the night. (I’ve lived my entire life in the Midwest and have made it through without flannel sheets. FWIW.) Or, maybe this is a job for an electric blanket instead.
Anon
Target gets flannel sheets in this time of year and they’re great. Dirt cheap, too.
nona
Yes – try the Target flannel to see if you like it. You can also mix/match – flannel fitted sheet and your regular top sheet, if all flannel seems like too much of a commitment.
Personally, I’d skip the flannel pillowcases though, if you have have long hair. It will catch on your hair more than the percale/sateen sheets so has the opportunity for more breakage.
CapHillAnon
I vote yes for flannel sheets! I have a set from the Company Store and they are divine on a cool night. There is no chill when you first get in. They’ve held up very well over the three years I’ve had them.
Anonymous
Flannel sheets are the best! Except when it’s 90 deg out and my DH still insists on flannel, lol. They are super soft and cozy.
We like ours from LLBean and Lands End. The only thing that might be an adjustment is the flannel “grabs” other fabrics more, so I am super picky about my sleepwear bc i need it to move with me when i roll over, if that makes sense.
Mid Atlantic – we use a flannel base sheet, no top sheet, and a flannel backed duvet all winter. Most nights, I throw off my half of the duvet at some point but that’s bc I am a human radiator. DH stays snuggled under all night long.
Parfait
Yes to the sleepwear issue. Flannel pajamas + flannel sheets — remember the felt board in kindergarten class? You’re stuck.
I have LLBean flannels now, and I like them better than the Lands End ones I’ve had previously.
Go for it
If they work for you they’re absolutely worth it. Personally, I do not care for them.
Vicky Austin
State that ends in Dakota, admittedly badly insulated house. I do not find that our (huge, heavy duty) electric blanket warms up our Threshold sheets like it did our flannel ones last winter. (I keep meaning to change to the flannel sheets for winter and forgetting.)
Some people have said that flannel/synthetic sheets make them sweat like nobody’s business though.
anon
Flannel can be cotton. I would never in a million years sleep on synthetic sheets, and I’ve had flannel winter sheets all my life.
anon
Synthetic sheets of ANY kind are a no-go for me! Would definitely go for 100% cotton flannel.
nuqotw
My mom got us a set from Garnet Hill the first year of our marriage (we were both in school, little money coming in, living in an older house that did not have the best-sealed windows). The were and are the best.
Anon
We live in Minnesota and keep our house cold at night (65 degrees or less). For me, flannel sheets are a necessity about 6 months a year, and I also have a heated mattress pad. I use the mattress pad to warm up the bed, then turn it off before sleeping. The flannel sheets we like are from L.L. Bean, Wirecutter’s recommendation, because they are reasonably priced and soft and fit our mattress well.
Anon
Worth it.
Signed, grew up in the woods of NH during some frigid New England winters.
Diana Barry
Yes.
I buy Garnet Hill flannel sheets (so cushy!) when they go on sale. Also LL Bean has good ones (I also buy those on sale).
Small Law Partner
A go between is jersey. We use jersey sheets/duvet cover/pillowcases year round and would never go back to “regular” sheets. I hate getting into a cold bed and they are a lot softer.
Anonymous
Do y’all have any suggestions for a recipe that feeds a crowd and is both gluten-free and vegetarian? Also preferably not beans? Thank you!
Lilliet
Beanless Quinoa Chili
https://makethebestofeverything.com/2018/12/pressure-cooker-beanless-quinoa-chili/
Lilliet
When you said for the masses, this is what I thought of. Depending on what the format is (personal? business?) how many people (define crowd), and the tools that will be available to you (in your house? crock pot?) there are many more suggestions.
Anonymous
Thanks, it’s for my choir retreat, will be about 15 people, in a rental house kitchen. I do have access to a slow cooker, no pressure cooker though.
Lilliet
You don’t need a pressure cooker, and chili with baked potatoes might be a great option for this–then different types of toppings. Without a pressure cooker you would want it on low for 6-8hrs. Beanless quinoa chili was served at a church group function recently and enjoyed by meat eaters and vegetarians alike, YMMV though.
Anon
There are tons of Indian dishes that qualify. I’m partial to bhindi masala myself. https://www.vegrecipesofindia.com/
Anon
Risotto might fit the bill. Chrissy Tiegen’s Cravings book has a good recipe. We swap out the mushrooms for baked prosciutto on top. Takes a while to make, but can feed a ton of people easily, esp. if you add a side like a salad! Also, just generally recommend that book. Every recipe we’ve made from it is great.
ceej
My go to for these things is a “bar” of either a baked potato bar or a taco bar. For a baked potato bar you bake the potatoes, and then I have cheese, sour cream, onions, butter, broccoli, and usually two canned chilis (vegetarian and meat). If your group is totally meatless, then you could just do a vegetarian chili. Taco bar you could do a jackfruit sofritas or other tofu sofritas, beans if you like, and then lettuce, salsa, onions, corn chips, tortillas, cheese, sour cream. Third option would be tofu fried rice, with or without bonus egg, heavy on the tofu and vegetables.
UCLA and USC
When I was a kid, UCLA seemed to be the cool school. Like, I saw UCLA people running track on TV on the weekends (have no idea why, parents didn’t have cable and TV was all sports once cartoons were over). And I knew, even as an East Coast kid, that UCLA was in a very nice part of LA and LA was just the coolest city ever. I hadn’t ever really heard of USC (maybe people who follow football knew of it b/c I know OJ went there). Later, a college roommate went there for grad school and b/c she is 4-11 on a good day, people were really worried that she’d get mugged or carjacked.
I just got done reading about Lori Laughlin in People (thanks, dentist waiting room!) and was surprised at how USC-heavy the varsity blues scandal is (with no mention really of UCLA).
Is my perception of UCLA – USC just stone aged or have things really changed in the past 15 years? [Asking b/c my kids are old enough that they can go to various schools for summer programs for younger kids, so not completely idly asking, and I could work for a month out of our OC / LA offices for a nice sabatical from the East Coast.]
Anonymous
It’s way easier to buy your way into a private school than a public school. USC is for rich kids who won’t get into UCLA on the merits because the UC system is very competitive
Anon
UCLA is definitely a better school academically. But USC is private and has prestige among a certain set of people who are wealthy and care about brand names but aren’t that focused on academics. I also think with the bribe scandal there’s an element of luck that there was a person there they were able to bribe. Most schools, especially public schools, probably don’t have an official who is so easily bribed but USC did and the mastermind of the scheme knew it.
Bruin
USC is where you go if you can’t get into UCLA and your parents are rich.
Anonymous
+1. Also… in certain circles (aka my immigrant Asian parents with first gen Asian-American kids circles), USC is where the wealthy mainland Chinese kids go if they aren’t smart enough to go to UCLA. The first gen immigrant kids strive to get into UCLA because they can’t afford USC or their parents think it’s not prestigious enough (true story, this was how my dad decided my sister was going to UCLA)
Anonymous
When I was at UCLA, the track team was so good that you pretty much had to be an Olympian to get a scholarship. That’s why you saw them on TV.
UCLA is in one of the nicer parts of LA, but all of LA is still smoggy and hot and crowded and expensive and choked with traffic. You might have fun spending the summer there, but it’s a horrible place to live.
Anon UCLA Grad
As someone who both attended UCLA and later worked in LA, I am going to push back on this a bit. I hated living in LA, mostly because of the traffic, but going to UCLA is completely different than living and working in LA – mostly because students usually live near campus and rarely leave the Westwood/Brentwood bubble.
Also Los Angeles (especially on the west side) is not all that hot compared to the rest of the country (although certainly substantially less cold), nor is it more crowded than any other city.
The traffic on the other hand is truly horrific.
Flats Only
Perhaps the selection of schools where you could get in via these corrupt schemes was limited? Like USC had a corrupt coach or whatever, but UCLA didn’t.
Anonymous
True, that is part of it. But the indictment has the Gianulli/McLaughlins as being very anti Arizona State and like “OMG our girls have to go to USC,” like something bad would happen if they didn’t. Maybe it’s that among a certain set, they all to go USC (like how some of my neighbors all go to ONE country club (among many) and all send their kids to a certain private school while our neighborhood public school has nothing wrong with it in a ‘hood where houses are close to 7 figures).
All I know is USC has a film school (so I think that could make it like the WEst Coast NYU) and I know a friend’s brother went there for law school and he is super-smart (and was out of state, so no in-state tuition benefit from going to UCLA).
Anon
Arizona State is public, USC is private. For people of a certain income bracket, there is inherent prestige in going to a private school.
Anon
I think my comment got eaten when my Internet died, but I was just saying that UCLA is a top university and USC is not. It’s hard to believe that people cheat their way into USC – it doesn’t really seem worth it.
Anon
The reason that the Varsity Blues scandal is USC-heavy is because the people running the scam found an “in” at that school. It could be that UCLA’s admissions is structured to prevent that kind of fraud; it could be that the scammers couldn’t get the water polo coach to work with them.
I seem to recall that Vanderbilt was targeted, but the masterminds concluded that it wouldn’t be a good ‘mark’ because of its internal controls on admissions.
Anon
I made a joking comment to a friend about how someone would spend so much money to get into a school that wasn’t even the best school in their city, who sent it to a friend who went to USC, and his response was that my comment was basically as follows “wealthy white people generally don’t send their kids to UCLA, they send them to USC, which as much an elite finishing school for the right kind of people as it is a college.”
Anonymous
Admissions in the UC system are based primarily on grades and SAT scores, so wealthy parents don’t have nearly as much influence on admissions as they do at private schools. There is literally a formula.
Anon
Having just gone through this with my daughter, the UCs she got into and those she was waitlisted for and those she was rejected by does not seem to follow a pattern. She has really strong sports, leadership, and extracurricular, and probably an excellent writing sample (she wouldn’t show me) but has always had trouble with tests, so her sat scores were not spectacular and her grades reflect this as well (3.5 gpa, AP classes taken but no AP credits.)
The schools are clearly looking beyond a formula because if that were the case I don’t think she wouldn’t have been admitted to any other than Merced. And she was admitted to some that her stronger gpa and SAT friends were rejected by.
Anonymous
They admit a certain percentage based on the formula alone, and then after that they look at extracurriculars and the writing sample. At least that’s how it worked when I got in.
Small Law Partner
So much that last bit. From LA. I went to UCLA for UG. When I was applying for college (decades ago), there was definitely a sentiment that USC although not really as good of a school was preferable to some parents because of the . . . nature of the student body (i.e., wealthy and connected). One of my friend’s parents actually told me UCLA tuition isn’t high enough to keep the “wrong” people out.
Anon
In my California Big Law firm, USC is widely referred to as “University of Second Choice” and “University of Spoiled Children.” People seem to respect UCLA a lot more. I’m not from CA, but that’s my take on the prevailing view here. I think even before the bribery scandal USC was viewed much more as a place you could buy your way into (legally, with donations, etc.) vs UCLA where you have to get in on the academic or athletic merits.
Anon
These comments are really shocking. I’m a Californian that has a degree from both schools (ugrad and grad). USC has changed immensely over the past 15 years. For ugrad, it’s now ranked higher than UCLA, the average SAT score is higher than UCLA, and the average GPA is higher than UCLA. The endowment is massive (from all those “rich kids”) and thus the resultant investment into academics (e.g. professor recruitment), technology, and infrastructure is crazy. The USC alumni network is also a big sell for the school – alums LOVE the school. Along the lines of a Notre Dame kind of thing. And honestly, if everyone here things the kind of allegations that have been levied at the USC wrongdoers weren’t happening at a lot of other places, then this isn’t the kind of cynical lawyer squad I thought it was…
Anonymous
USC has a really good film school. They also have a good engineering programs, and the Viterbi incoming class is 50% female. So don’t write it off if you have a child with interests that mesh with the strong programs.
CapHillAnon
Please give me your advice on coats! I have been wearing my lady day Coat from J Crew for six years I love its lines, particularly the higher inset waist, because it flatters my shape (straight through the waist veering toward apple shape). But it’s time for a new coat. I’ve read on here some rumblings about the fabric quality on Lady Days going down, and the price is high. Is there an alternative well-constructed wool coat that anyone can suggest with similar lines? Also, my coloring has changed over time + black washes me out now. Should I only look for coats that are charcoal or other colors, or should I stick with a black coat again + make sure to wear flattering scarves? I’m prepared to spend ~$400, but want to wear it 5 years. I love the green colored Lady Day, but worried that the color will look dated in a couple years. I’m in analysis paralysis here and would love any guidance.
Anon
Check out Extrapetite blog. She regularly reviews all kinds of coats. I’m not petite and love following her fashion recs! She used to be an actual working professional (I think she just blogs now), so she understands working lady fashion.
Back to work?
Tips on returning to work after maternity leave? I’ve been out from my small nonprofit for three months and have been gloriously disconnected. My boss is very supportive but I am keen to strive for a smooth, generative transition, both for my family and my staff.
Anon
The book the 5th trimester was helpful on this. But also, lower expectations. It’ll be hard, and that’s ok.
Anonymous
Start back on a Wednesday or Thursday so you don’t have to face a full week.
Anonymous
A couple years ago a good friend moved to my city. For whatever reason we haven’t been talking to each other for about two years–the last time she reached out to me was about a year ago and I didn’t respond. At this time I don’t care to rekindle the friendship or interact with her. Her kid, who I’d been close to since birth, they moved to my city because kid wanted to be near me, has a significant birthday next month. I’m wondering if I should send a card or gift. I want to acknowledge the kid but I don’t want it to be taken as an olive branch and start interacting again–I’m not ready for that.
Anon
Why would you take this out on the child? Send the gift.
Anonymous
Disagree. They haven’t talked in two years which means OP hasn’t seen the kid in at least two years. The child has no idea who OP is and it’s odd to get a gift from a stranger.
Anonymous
How old is the kid? Unless they are over 6 or 7 then they have no idea who you are after two years of non-contact so it would be weird to send a gift unless you specifically want to restart the friendship.
Anonymous
Nope. You burned this to the ground. You don’t get to not speak to a friend but still play fun auntie to their child.
anon
I’m confused – if I’m reading this correctly, you just fell out of touch (that’s how I’m interpreting “whatever reason”) but before that you were close enough that they moved to your city so her child could be close to you? Have you interacted with this child in the time since the move?
OP
No, didn’t fall out of touch, actively stopped interacting. No interaction with the child since. The mother reached out to me a couple times but I didn’t/don’t respond.
Anonymous
No don’t reach out. You dropped this friendship already. It would be incredibly weird to send child a gift.
Anon
You’re like vague booking here. If you just want some attention and drama, carry on. But if you want actual advice, provide actual details.
OP
Sure. Realized the mother is an addict, so is the father. Generally quite aggressive. It’s part of their lifestyle, not part of mine. They behaved inappropriately, as addicts will, to me and to my family. The kid is a teenager. Is that enough detail to give advice?
Anonymous
If they are addicts and you basically abandonned this kid to them, don’t send a sweet 16 or whatever gift. If the kid has social media and you can contact them directly, send a happy birthday wish and offer to help with their college applications. Don’t randomly contact this kid who clearly expected to rely on you by moving to the city, and then just disappear again. Only contact the kid if you plan to be a consistent role model in their life.
Anon
+1
Clementine
Yes. Develop an individual supportive relationship with the teenager. Be a supportive, stable adult in the teen’s life.
I get this on so many levels – I give you permission to split the two relationships apart.
Anon
Teenage kid of addicts needs all the support he/she can get. Why haven’t you seen the kid? Can you have an independent relationship with the kid?
busybee
OP, it sounds like the end of the friendship is squarely on you. You rebuffed her attempts to reconnect. I think it would be very strange and put the kid in an extremely awkward position if you gave kid a gift but continued to refuse to talk to kid’s mom. My advice might be different if kid is an adult and you have a relationship with kid independent from your relationship with mom, but from your limited details it does not seem like that is the case.
Anonymous
I agree with this. If the “significant birthday” is the kid turning 21, then sure send a gift. But if they’re a minor then sorry, losing a friendship with the kid’s parents means losing a friendship with the kid. This goes for teenagers too, imo; middle and high school are confusing enough without adding adult problems to the mix.
Anon
I don’t think we help you given the information you’re withholding. They moved because kid wanted to be close to you? Not sure what type of relationship this is/was. I think if kid is 13/15/18 – yes you can send something but be prepared for things to get weird, you can’t have a relationship with kid without the mother having some knowledge or involvement. If kid is 10 or under, I think the above advice applies.
Anon
I will differ from the group and say, since the kid is old enough to remember you as a teenager, and since the kid moved to be closer to you, dont burn bridges with the kid. Send the gift, and send a gift every year, and if they kid emails or contacts you reply to them, and you are ok ignoring the mother.
Anon
I posted on Monday about my longtime close friend sort of bailing on getting together with me when she was in my town – she asked me to hold a day for her, then didn’t communicate much, then ended up asking me to join her and a group of her other friends late in the day. I ended up not going and tried to let her off the hook, but she got mad at me anyway and was giving me the silent treatment.
I ended up texting her my entire side of the story and she then apologized, and then I apologized, and we seem to be ok. We are going to be clearer about what exactly having plans to get together means in the future.
From her perspective, she was really trying to maximize seeing as many people as she could when she’s in town and she felt rejected that I didn’t want to see her enough to tag along with a group of her friends. I felt rejected for all the reasons I laid out in my post, but mainly I felt like an afterthought. Which I still think I kind of was, I think she takes our long term friendship for granted.
I’m glad the ice is thawed and now that we have all this on the table I think we’ll communicate better going forward.
Thanks for all your advice. It was a hard day and reading your words of advice really helped me, even when your advice was to tell her to f%^* off.l! (Which I was certainly feeling at the moment.)
Anon
Thanks for the update! This was tough and I’m glad you guys are working through it.
Anon
In your experience – is frugalness/complaining about money an act in the upper middle class income brackets or are people really that tight in their finances?
It’s open enrollment for insurance and I had a friend talking about how if the copay is $15-20 they are quick to bring their kids to the dr but if it’s $50, they think hard about whether a visit is necessary. The whole time I’m like – seriously?? This is a woman working in mid law making 150k and combined with her husband their income is no less than $300k. Yeah the DMV is expensive with 2 little kid daycares but give me a break – they take at least 6 flying trips per yr. And then I had another friend talking about how financially hard another government shutdown would be and she complained non stop last time — telling me her cousins were sending her care packages etc. And the whole time I’m like – how can a single woman in her 50s making 150-160k not have 1-2 paychecks sitting in reserves??
Are all this articles of being paycheck to paycheck even over 100k really true or do people try to bond by complaining about money?
Anon
I think it’s a bonding thing and some people take it way too far (I posted a few years back about how my friend sitting on a large inheritance who was desperately job-searching said that she “couldn’t afford” new shoes from Target for a job interview and therefore couldn’t accept it). However, my view is that it’s better to be frugal even if you have enough money. Rich people waste money, but people who accrue true wealth typically don’t.
Anonymous
People can legitimately be doing fine financially but also still worry about their finances.
Anon
Especially when the next recession is lurking around the corner.
Anonymous
Yes, some people truly don’t feel comfortable, no matter how much money is coming in (or sitting in the bank). The friends might legitimately make good money, and have good savings, and still be worried about small charges adding up. It is just a mindset.
Anonymous
I think a lot of people who have reserves in the bank don’t want to tap them, ever.
Anonymous
This. I have significant savings across multiple accounts but each is for a very specific purpose. I think people call this “bucketing savings”. If my checking account is running low (like right now because I just had several unexpected large expenses, but not what I would consider worthy of using my emergency savings), I feel “broke”. Obviously I’m not by any objective measure, but in my mind, I don’t have any money available for extras like going out. Sometimes I might make an off-hand joke about it, but I definitely don’t spend all my time complaining about it to my family or friends. That’s a bit weird.
nuqotw
I think this hits the nail on the head. We have significant reserves, but it makes me nervous to tap them, even for planned purchases. When spouse and I had our first kid, we did so knowing we would have to tap our savings every month to cover child care and so forth. I was going on the job market and finishing graduate school so we were reasonably certain we wouldn’t have to go into debt but seeing all that money flow out of savings month after month has stayed with me – even now before I buy something not strictly necessary I always think “but what if we need the money for something more important than whatever we are about to spend it on right now”?
FWIW we also keep a careful budget and I am very comfortable saying “XYZ is not in the budget”….most recently to my preschooler, who thinks we should get a convertible.
Anon
This is me. I pulled $300 out of our emergency savings to cover an unexpected car repair last week – which is the whole reason why we have emergency savings, yes? to cover things like unexpected car repairs? – and I was depressed about it. $300 is a tiny amount relative to the balance of the account and I will pay the money back in very shortly, but I still felt bad. I don’t like being that way but I can’t help it. I like seeing our savings numbers go up and when they go down, it feels like a failure or something.
That being said, in response to the OP’s question – I nickel and dime about things but not about my kid’s medical care; we are on a deductible plan and rarely meet the deductible so I just have gotten used to paying medical bills. At one point we hit $150k in HHI and I remember thinking “wow, this doesn’t go as far as I thought it would” – I think I had this idea in my head that once we made that much money, our money problems would be over. But there are always money problems. We’re at $215 HHI and still not living the high life or living without money problems. Especially when I read here, I realize now that there is no level of income at which money problems go away.
Anon
We have a combined household income of $275,000 and very much feel like we live paycheck to paycheck. We could manage missing one paycheck, but not two. For us, it’s a combination of having three kids and the high costs of childcare and extracurriculars associated with that, having a lot of debt and thus high payments to debt (we basically incurred the debt in school and have just never gotten out of it), and having a lot of big expenditures come up whenever we start to get ahead (kids, moving, medical expenses, etc.) I don’t complain about money, because I’m embarrassed to be paycheck to paycheck at this point in my career. So, yes, the articles are true, but I also think some people do just bond by complaining about money.
Anonymous
If you have no savings you can’t afford any extracurriculars and probably your whole lifestyle.
Anon
Time for a family meeting to get everyone on board with some serious belt-tightening, then. What’s your plan if someone loses their job? Your plan for retirement? We’re past due for another recession. Unless you have a backup plan (family money, some other way to stay afloat), you should be attacking this problem like the emergency it is. You didn’t get in the hole you’re in overnight and you won’t get out of it overnight.
I’ve never made >$50k/year and I have no debt, savings and a plan. Why? Because I have no family and our government safety net is a shitshow. If I lose the ability to support myself, there’s no backstop other than what I’ve set aside.
Anon
We have about $100,000 in equity in our house and about $5000-10000 in an emergency fund. We do have some retirement savings–roughly $250,000, although not enough for our ages (mid-40s). We have jobs that are as secure as jobs can be (which is still not secure, admittedly). We just have an enormous amount of debt. Part of the problem is that it feels awful to make the kids pay for our situation by not doing extracurriculars. We don’t, objectively, have a ridiculous lifestyle. We live in a MCOL city, we don’t drive new or expensive cars, we don’t outsource, we don’t spend tons of money. We have just incrementally accumulated a ton of debt, such that our monthly payments take a lot of our income. I don’t disagree with either point made here–obviously, we know better and have made poor choices that put us in this situation. I appreciate and agree with both comments.
I just wanted to comment that, yes, there are people making a lot of money and living paycheck to paycheck.
Anon
Gently, have you considered bankruptcy? It’s a real, non-judgemental question. If you get a good lawyer and can structure it the right way it might not be as painful as you think. People declare bankruptcy when they’re where you are – the debt load is an insurmountable obstacle and it’s standing between you and what you want for your life and your future. One of my friends found that in comparison to the constant, stomach-gnawing balancing act her life had been, life after bankruptcy was much less stressful. Just a thought.
Anon
It feels awful, but I promise, your kids will understand and you’ll be planting the seeds of awareness so they have a chance to not go down the same road you’re on right now. For all my parents’ faults, I’m thankful they were honest with us about how tight things really were in a generally age-appropriate way when needed at various points in my childhood.
Yes, I was sometimes envious of the classmates who had riding lessons, but the fact that my parents were honest with me (that everyone’s situation is different, and that riding lessons just weren’t in the cards for us… they never framed it as “so-and-so’s parents are rich and that’s why they can do whatever”) made it go down a lot easier. Ditto for skiing, dance and travel sports. When things were really tight, we did barter for music lessons (this was our big splurge and I got a deal even by the standards of the time) and I was also thankful to have gotten scholarships for youth orchestra, summer camps and had teachers who were super-generous with their time.
tl;dr – It massively sucks, but kids react surprisingly well to being upfront about finances.
anon
it could be both! The social bonding over complaining then reinforces/normalizes the spending behavior, which in turn allows further kwetching about money woes. It’s a cycle.
A couple I know well definitely spends like this, they make enough money, but they spend it all.
Anon
What I’ve learned in recent years is that UMC people carry a LOT more debt that I ever realized. It may be school debt that they’re paying off at the minimum — so it can take them 30 years. I’ve also realized that a lot of people have huge mortgages even for “regular”/modest homes because they don’t put in a 20-25% down payment and then when they start to make progress on paying down the mortgage, they’ll often refinance/remove equity and thus make the term longer again because then it’s time to redo the house or whatever.
And because I work with lawyers, I’ve also realized that mostly they aren’t investors. Sure they’ll throw some into retirement (often only up to whatever % their employer matches though to be fair some do 19k/year), but for the most part they don’t generate another stream of income/net worth by having taxable investments that they contribute to regularly. It’s not a matter of being rich, as my friends in engineering fields who objectively make less money are much more likely to be investing on a regular basis. I think it’s lawyers just not understanding the math and thus being scared of it and/or being way to trusting of financial advisors because they think — well I don’t get it, but this person is a professional, he must get it. I think I’ve posted before about a lawyer friend and her husband who fancy themselves a cut above the rest because “their guy” gets them investments that are private placements and WAY better than the S&P that any fool can invest in. And then one year she tells me, they’re so disappointed they lost $$ last year. I’m wondering what happened because that year the market happened to be up like 20%. Turns out — “their guy” had convinced them to put most of their money into solar/alternatives and that was the one sector that dramatically underperformed that year — and they had no clue that they should diversify/not be talked into investments etc. I find that these kinds of things happen more in UMC income ranges.
Anon
This comparison between lawyers and engineers is spot on. I’m a lawyer, my husband is an engineer. I think lawyers are so focused on paying down their loans that they push off saving for retirement or a home. (Not realizing these things are something they can afford to do and are worthwhile.) Firms also tend to be stingy about 401ks, and then the emphasis is on buying in for partnership, etc. All of my husbands’ friends own homes and actively invest their money. They normally go on a yearly, niceish vacation. My lawyer friends generally do not own homes because it’s too “expensive” and go on 1-2 international trips a year. Income is not significantly different between friend groups.
Small Law Partner
Yeah on the debt thing. I’ve learned that many of my co-workers have very leveraged existences and in particular have pretty insane mortgage vehicles/large mortgages, very expensive cars, still have law school debt 10-20 years out of law school, have multiple kids in private school, etc. I wouldn’t be able to sleep at night.
Anon
I try not to complain about money much because I know overall I’m very fortunate, but there’s plenty of times when I say that I cannot afford something or that it’s too expensive for me — it’s not because I don’t have savings, but because I do. I do have 6 months of living expenses saved up, but if I dip into those reserves I know they will be really really hard to build back up. To save for retirement, kids college, and cash towards a downpayment, I have to really watch the small expenses (coffees, copays, lunches, dry cleaning). If I start letting little things slip, it’s going to become impossible.
Anon
But how to you handle it? If you are invited out to lunch/dinner or are trying to decide whether to go to the dr. — would you SAY — hmm, can’t go/can’t afford it/don’t want to spend the $50? Or would you just — decline and not say why? I guess what gets me is people making 150-300k+ saying they can’t afford things/that they have to think about money. It makes it seem like they are somehow being overly frugal or totally paycheck to paycheck.
I grew up in a middle class immigrant home so lots of old world culture — which is actually a very flashy culture that values money too much — if you couldn’t afford something or didn’t want to spend on something because you needed to save for something more important, you NEVER let that on, ever. You simply played it off as — yeah haven’t tried that restaurant yet or IDK I don’t really like xyz food etc. So I guess the American “honesty” about money at high income levels strikes me as weird like — do you want people to think you’re poor??
Anon
To me there’s a difference between “can’t afford” and “not in the budget.” DH and I try to save X% of our take home pay every month and we budget accordingly. Of course, I could technically afford to do XYZ fun thing but it would blow through my fun budget for the month – so I don’t do it. I also use it as good excuse for why I don’t want to do certain things (e.g. concert tickets with a very sensitive cousin who might take my rejection personally).
anon
It’s interesting how our own background colors these things. What you described – never letting on that you can’t or don’t want to afford something – I find that very American, down to the discussion of how to split a check and how insisting to covering only your own meal/not wanting to subsidize a friend’s meal as a default is somehow bad etiquette.
You also called someone else’s choice ‘overly frugal’ here, when you don’t know what their savings goal/debt is, or whether going out with friends just brings them less enjoyment than it brings you, so they don’t wanna splurge on it. I am by a lot of standards overly frugal (cook my own food, try goodwill and craigslist before buying anything new, truly ridiculous water saving schemes, effectively living on one paycheck with my spouse), but you might not be aware because I opt to spend on eating out with friends and gifts.
Anon
Just specially, my friends who insist on splitting the bill the way you say also don’t want to pay their share of taxes or shared starters (that they agreed to, but then they say they didn’t like it and didn’t eat much of it) and don’t want to tip 20% and think the tip should be 15% of the total excluding tax and alcohol and on and on. It’s exhausting, they’re cheap, and they really want everyone else to subsidize them, including the poor waiter. Don’t be that kind of cheap.
Abby
I think I tend on the frugal side in general. Always making coffee/food at home, I’ll drive to Costco to save money on gas, etc but I do all of those things (where it’s more hidden in my own time), so we can go out to eat, vacation, and treat our friends without seeming stingy. We invite friends over a lot because serving friends food & drinks at our house is usually the same cost if we took an uber to and from, bought dinner & drinks. However, I’m also pretty proud of sharing what great deals I find, and our friends are pretty financial savvy as well so I don’t feel embarrassed that I look for sales. My dad told me that learning to be frugal doesn’t mean I’ll live without, it means I’ll spend time looking for the best deal, which usually ends up being the same item for less money.
Anon
Yes!
Frugal != Cheap
11:55 poster
I do make it about money but I try to be sensitive about it – I don’t want to present myself as poor when I’m not because that feels disrespectful to those who are actually struggling. I might say something like, my eating out budget got blown through for this month already, so let’s pick a cheaper place for this one. Or, I splurged on X so I’m trying to cut back the rest of the month. Or I’m saving up cash for my trip to Y. If reasonable, I’ll propose a cheaper alternative. I’m usually pretty good at managing my spending cash and most of my friends are not huge spenders either so there’s usually a cheaper alternative that works. I find that many of my friends respond well to this, since they usually have something they are saving for as well.
Anon
I feel like in my generation — the current 30-40 year olds — vacationing is THE priority. It is all about experiences etc. They don’t view it as an option to not take a vacation yearly or to cut back on trips and go away say 3 times instead of 4. So anything that “threatens” that is complained about — a $250 medical bill between copays + deductibles is viewed as — that could be my plane ticket somewhere domestic.
Anon
There’s some truth to this. I’ve posted before — I have a friend in the non profit world in NYC. Yet she takes at least 3 big vacations/yr — we’re talking Europe, fancy spas in Arizona, Hawaii etc. I know a lot of travel these days is on points, but points can’t cover every single cost and she doesn’t spend frugally when she arrives — luxury hotels, upgraded rooms at said hotels, $200 dinners at least a few nights; I mean even trips back and forth to LGA are going to cost you money. Yet this is the same woman who has told me she doesn’t have a proper winter coat (in NYC of all places) or a fall/raincoat, needs sheets/towels, etc. I have given up feeling bad because priorities. If she cuts out ONE trip to Spain or wherever, takes that money she saves and goes to Macy’s — she can buy everything she needs.
anon
Yeah, that’s insane to me. Why would you want to make your everyday life so uncomfortable, all in the name of going 1 more place per year?
anon
I actually think this is a subtle psychological manipulation, that if you got the flight or the hotel on points, those savings will lead you to justify higher than your normal spending on other expenses on your trip.
Anon
Totally. When your flight and/or hotel is booked for free and then it’s $50 to get a better seat on the plane and then you check in and the front desk says $30/night more for the stellar ocean view and then there’s that restaurant everyone is raving about where a meal with drinks will run you $200, you suddenly say yes to all of it because all of those costs are just incidental to a free vacation. Except on a 5 night trip, that’s suddenly $400 extra spent. I personally think that $400 is NBD — but when you know that you could use a winter coat back home, yeah that $400 will buy you a couple coats esp if you go to a department store and you can use the rest for household goods like sheets or whatever.
Anon
Rich people are the stingiest people. This is not new, it’s always been true. My parents are super wealthy (and have always had lots of savings, it wasn’t like they were earning a lot but spending it all). I don’t know that they ever avoided taking me to the doctor because of finances (we had good insurance though), but they did things like clip coupons, they didn’t tip that well, we traveled to exotic places but then we wouldn’t pay $10 to go inside a museum once we were there, they would pack food with us when we traveled so we had to spend less money on eating out, etc. etc.
Anonymous
I always think that upper middle class people who are financially pinched by the little things don’t have the big things in order. They bought homes requiring PMI, or before they could pay off student loans, leased a new car rather than drive a used one, have two children because it never occurred to them to have only one (see above). And your friend probably honestly believes that none of these were choices but they were. I know how judgey this sounds but it’s so true.
Our HHI is more than our paid for home in the NY suburbs. My husband drove a used Honda until two weeks ago when he bought a new car in cash. We only have one child. So yeah a co-pay is painless, but it was a choice to set up our lives this way.
Anon
This. Practically everyone I work with rushed to buy a house and/or bought too much house — so yeah now things are tight and they have to think about $25 here or there. With decisions like housing (and cars to a certain extent), it sets up your fixed costs in a way that it isn’t easy to downsize — selling a house has huge costs that simply cutting out a vacation or stopping the Whole Foods habit for a month doesn’t.
Anon
My husband and I make about $130k combined in a VLCOL area, but we both did grad school so we didn’t start earning actual real money until 2013. We live in a very nice apartment that is less than 10% of our post-tax income, drive reliable but used cars, and save like fiends.
Since we’re expecting a child, you have NO IDEA how many people think we should buy a house and upgrade the cars to new SUVs. Let’s do the math. Labor, delivery, maternity leave, first year of daycare, assuming no complications whatsoever – is going to set us back $25k, minimum, then an additional $10k a year in 2021. House down payment: $40k to $50k, plus closing costs, plus moving costs. New cars: another $50k (financed, sure, but then you’re paying two car payments, daycare, mortgage, health bills, etc.).
AYFKM?????
In my world, the better move is to ensure that the huge expenses are in the rear view mirror, and to make sure that we aren’t looking at massive medical bills for the first year of babyhood, before we send tens of thousands of dollars out the door.
anon
I agree with this 100%. We stayed in our apartment until our son was 3.5, although we spent some money (maybe $10K) repainting, reorganizing the laundry room, and decorating the nursery. We’re in a MCOL area, and it is unusual for a middle-class family with a child to live in anything but a single-family home. Financially, it worked really well for us to stay in the apartment, cover some financial setbacks with relative ease, save, and then buy a house. We were then able to buy a house with a 20% down payment.
We also ended up purchasing a new car when our son was about 4 months old, after our used car broke down on a road trip. But we kept our 13-year-old second car, which we can’t even safely install a car seat in, and managed our schedule to just have one car that our kid rode in. The now-17-year-old car is dead, and I just bought a used (and more family friendly) car.
Anon
Totally agree with both of you, but in my peer group — living in an apartment with a baby [gasp] — who does not, omg are you poor?? Frankly it’s now even become — buying a house ASAP when you’re married because what married couple lives in an apartment . . . . It’s ridiculous. Yet apartment living saves money and while everyone goes on about how rent is wasted money/you have no equity — you can use the money saved from apartment living to buy equity in the market.
Anon
I’m the Anon at 12:57 pm, and I grew up hearing “It’s better to be rich than to act like you’re rich,” meaning, if you make great financial decisions and pile up money in the bank like Smaug on his pile of gold, that’s far better than living large and showing off how much money you earn.
Anon
Agreed with this. Also things like expensive extracurriculars for your kids are a choice, not a must. I get that some expenses, like childcare, are much harder to negotiate, but extras aren’t musts.
Anonymous
With regard to the doctor co-pays, I think a lot of wealthy people who have always had health insurance feel that they are entitled to pay little or nothing out of pocket. Over the years, my excellent health insurance has gone from $0 out of pocket, to co-pays, to co-pays + coinsurance, to huge co-pays + enormous deductible + ridiculous coinsurance percentage, to the point where I am paying nearly everything out of pocket and the only real benefit of the insurance is the lower rates that the insurance company negotiates with the health care providers (and the out-of-pocket max to limit expenses in case of a catastrophic event). An entitled wealthy person who is used to paying next to nothing out of pocket is going to be resentful when she’s actually asked to pony up under one of today’s insurance policies.
Anon
I have substantial savings BECAUSE I think about each of those $50 expenses. If I really need to go to the doctor, I go, but the cost absolutely puts me off if I’m on the fence. Household income is ~$150k, but I have a chronic health problem, future employment is unstable, and we live in a VHCOL area, so we’re quite careful with how we spend. If we really need it, we don’t think twice about buying it, but we think hard about whether we really need it.
anon
This is so annoying and I hate when people do this.
Anon
I view it as trying to bond + pry. When people complain like this, I get the sense that people are also looking for me to say — OMG yeah it was soooo hard to miss 2 paychecks during the shutdown (even though we knew there was backpay so we WOULD get paid eventually) that IDK if I can do it again — because then it “validates” that oh it’s hard on everyone making 150k, we’re all in the same boat. OR they’re looking for me to say “shrug — there will be backpay” in which case then it’s (behind the back) — OMG is she wealthy, I wonder if she has a trust fund or maybe she has no loans from school etc.
Anon
I think there are some universal truths in life. Some of those being there are a lot of people that make a lot of money and are terrible with finances, people are cheap at all income levels, and no matter how much money one makes there will always be someone scared that it’s not enough.
Anon
This is so true. So many stories in old novels of rich people being unable to manage their wealth!
Anonymous
I’ve often wondered this too. I grew up basically thinking that we were one missed paycheck away from homelessness. The answer to everything was – we can’t afford that. Buying lunch at school? Replacing a winter coat? Vacation? “It’s too expensive.” It took me a long time, well into my adult life, to realize that we were actually quite well off. I think it’s an anxiety thing.
Anon
I think that was a common parent response at least back in the 80s-90s — I just feel like that’s how parents said no to things, as opposed to now where they’ll involve their 6 year old in a discussion of household finances and/or whether or not a certain item is worth the price or not etc.
Anon
For certain upper middle class people, like myself (in a DINK household), what we really mean if we say “it’s not in the budget” is “it’s not worth it.” For example, I didn’t want to pay $75 a head for a cruise around the harbor with my coworkers because it just didn’t sound that fun to me when I could put that money towards an amazing trip I actually want to do. I also might need to focus on savings for one reason or another, especially since I have two chronic medical conditions that could be very expensive. Sometimes mentioning the budget is just a way to get out of doing something like that where it feels like throwing away money for no good reason.
Anon
Right but even talking about taking your kid to the dr. if it costs $20 vs. $50 or talking about needing care packages from your cousins if your paycheck was going to be a month delayed? Come on — that’s not a budget issue if you’re making 300k unless there’s something really wrong with your budgeting.
Anon
Oh yeah, I agree that the care package thing is ridiculous. I can understand hesitation about co-pays since those can become so onerous, but you should not require care packages for delayed paychecks at high income. You just shouldn’t.
anon
Have you read the Millionaire Next Door? I think a lot of really rich people don’t look it. And a lot of people who live lavish lifestyles are drowning in debt and are not actually rich. This especially applies to traditionally lucrative sounding jobs like doctors and lawyers. Yeah, they generally make a ton of money and have the opportunity to make good financial choices, but these seem to be very image conscious occupations, so they “have” to spend money on flashy cars, club memberships, big houses, private school, etc. Not to mention the huge amount of student loan debt. Contrast that with people who still make a decent amount of money but don’t have flashy jobs– software engineers, accountants, etc.
My husband and I have well paying (HHI $180k) but non-flashy careers, are in our mid 30s and our net worth is around $1M. We have no debt. We live comfortably but modestly. We’re both frugal because we grew up poor and were very poor in our 20s (HHI ~$25K). So poor that I cried in the grocery store when I had to replace recipe ingredients that I had borrowed from a friend and didn’t realize that they would cost $25 to replace– because that was a huge amount of money. You don’t really forget how scary being that poor feels. I try not to complain about unexpected expenses because I realize how massively privileged I am at this point, but sometimes I still do out of habit. This is a good reminder that I need to stop.
Anon
Finally realized that my breaking out, canker sores, sore jaw from clenching my teeth and sore/tight body wasn’t all random coincidences and wowza I’m so stressed. It’s funny how even with all the symptoms (and plenty in life to be stressed out about) it takes you a minute to realize it.
Celia
My hairdresser has a pair of magic hands –when I’m sitting at the washing station during the conditioner stage, he massages my neck and scalp. Wowzers. I can feel my feet relaxing! give it a try (in addition to other things).
Original Moonstone
I have some harsh things to say about my inlaws and sending my feelings out into the void on the Internet seems the best place. I’ve posted before about trying to help my partner’s nephew with the college admission process. His high school is not-great and his parents are useless in this regard. So we have been meeting to work on his essay and look at schools online, etc. (I promise this is at his request – if he doesn’t want to go to college, that’s fine with me.)
Last weekend, I made arrangements with his mother to work on the FAFSA – again, at her request. I felt a little funny about getting so intimately involved in their finances, but she said they wanted help navigating the online forms and that she and her husband were OK with me seeing their taxes, etc. Background: Every year this 50-year-old woman asks her siblings for money for things like car emergencies so I knew the family didn’t have any savings. So I review the tax forms and am surprised to see their household income is about $110,000 (decent money where they live in a small rental), which means they have been mooching money off their siblings who make less than they do. Then we get to that part to discuss the kid’s college fund and it is $937 … which the high-schooler saved from his afterschool job.
They have saved not one dime for the kid’s college. The mother said she didn’t know college was so expensive (she has a master’s degree). The father said he thought the kid could get a sports scholarship … even though he’s a senior who has never played a sport.
We can figure out some options (likely community college or going into the service) but I just … arg! I actually thought they made less money and would be eligible for more financial aid, but now I doubt they will be able to come up with the yearly family contribution. The dad doesn’t want to take out loans. It’s a tough situation.
Anonymous
You never know. That could get him financial aid some places. Don’t push this kid into the war machine
Anonymous
Yes, this all started a few months ago when he told me he had gone to the Navy recruiting station the week before. I said, “Hey, let’s make sure we maximize your options and apply to schools too.”
Anonymous
How are the kid’s grades and SAT scores? If they are good and/or if he has a special skill or talent (sings tenor, plays viola, plays bassoon, etc.), he could look at some of the lesser private schools that give full-tuition merit scholarships. A couple of my nieces got full rides at these types of schools even though their dad was a midlaw partner and they had college savings.
I would be cautious about community college depending on the kind of student he is. IME, community college is good for high school students using it to sub for lower-level high school courses (think intro chem or bio, first-semester calc), for kids who are good candidates to stop at an associate’s degree, and as a bridge for kids who are not well prepared for college coming out of high school. If the kid has taken a fair number of AP classes and/or has a good idea of what major he wants to pursue, a community college won’t offer a lot of courses at his level, and he won’t be able to start on the lower-division prerequisites for his major.
Original Moonstone
This is exactly the route I thought we would go before I got all the details. His GPA is 2.9 and his test scores are not good. We talked about him taking the SAT again over the summer but he didn’t really get on board, so that did not improve. He plays no instrument or sport and joined no clubs at school. He’s such a good-hearted kid and he has been working hard at his afterschool job — which he talks about in his essay — but I’m doubtful at this point that all the small colleges I researched a few months ago will offer him much. I think it’s still worth it to apply, though. I think community college will not give him enough structure and he’ll just expand the hours at his current job and really never get the opportunities that you can get with a degree.
Anon
I’m in IT and I know a lot of really smart, successful people who didn’t go straight through high school to college. Obviously you don’t want him bumming around and doing dr*gs, etc. but if he’s going to take full-time hours at his current job and do community college on the side, it might not be the worst thing in the world. If/when he needs a four year college degree, he can go back and get it.
Anon
Are his parents’ savings really the biggest problem here? Getting into any four year college with a 2.9 GPA will be an uphill battle, to say the least.
Dpmitten
He should perhaps try to get into an apprentice program for a trade. They make more than I did as my first year as a lawyer with no school loans. And then once you’re working for a company, they often have tuition reimbursement programs for employees if he eventually wanted to get a degree. And they get paid OT and don’t have people sending them obnoxious emails at 9 pm.
Original Moonstone
There’s an electrician apprentice program that I had hoped he would be interested in but he just isn’t. I would love to have an electrician in the family!
Anon
I get why you’re annoyed that they’re making 100k+ and taking from siblings making less + haven’t saved for college, but 110k isn’t SOOO much money that he won’t get financial aid. He’ll still get grants/work study; sure there will be an expected family contribution — but he can take a loan for just that part — the kid, not the parents. So it doesn’t matter if the dad doesn’t want loans, the loans can belong to the son (IDK if one financially emancipates to do this but it’s possible).
IDK where you’re located or where this kid is willing to go/where he can get in — but Rice University in Houston just went tuition free for all families making 130k or less (though since they’re over 65k they’d pay room and board).
Original Moonstone
That’s a good tip about Rice — I’ll check to see if his grades are good enough. Honestly, I wasn’t that surprised that there was no money but the parents acting like it’s some kind of big secret that college is expensive was the part that killed me.
Anonymous
They are nowhere near good enough.
Anon
+1. They are nowhere near good enough for either of the flagship four year State Us in my state, neither of which is as good as Rice. I think regardless of his parents savings, based on his grades, you are at best looking at a very minor campus of a state university (UW-Parkside or something like that) and more likely at community college. There’s no shame in community college. If he does well there he should be able to transfer to a decent State U.
Anon
With a 2.9 GPA, no interest in improving his SATs, and no extracurriculars is a 4 year BA program the right next step for him?
He seems like a prime candidate for dropping out after a year or two, which is the worst of all options because he’ll have the debt but no degree (example A: my little brother). Would he be interested in a trade school? Union or other apprenticeship?
Also, why does he want to get a PoliSci degree? I have one and make a solid living with it and no grad degree, but it’s not a degree that leads you to a high earning career easily.
Anon
IMHO, “college ready” is about more than passing algebra II and American history. There are plenty of hard-working kids who aren’t very bright but are “college ready” because they have the drive, discipline, and maturity to succeed. They understand that college isn’t high school all over again, is expensive, and should be taken seriously.
I’m mostly worried that your nephew doesn’t see the point in improving his SAT scores. It vaguely reminds me of people who don’t want to bother studying for or re-taking the LSAT – it’s like, if that’s too much work for you, how are you going to succeed at the next level?
Is college the best route for him right now? If he really likes to work and is good at that, why not set him up with night classes and a plan for obtaining a degree while he works? That’s so much cheaper and would get him the check mark of “has a degree” that he might need later in life.
anon
+1. My HHI is about $100K, and we will probably not save much for our kid’s college. Right now, we’re spending every penny we make. When we no longer have to pay for daycare, we’ll start saving for our own retirement again. We may or may not receive some inheritance before my kid goes to college–if not, he’ll have to look for scholarships and/or take out loans.
Also, not all $100K salaries are created equal. My previous job had much better health insurance. Current job also offers health insurance, but the plan is not affordable for dependents. DH and son are on an exchange plan, but we now pay about $10K more for health insurance and health care expenses than we did under the old health insurance. Previous job also covered some business expenses that current job does not (continuing education, professional memberships, cell phones and cell phone plan) and offered FSAs, HSAs, and better 401K options.
Original Moonstone
I totally agree that $100K is not so much money that it’s easy to pay for college and honestly I am in no position to criticize their budgeting, etc. A few people have suggested that the parents might be funding their retirement accounts, so I’ll just note this couple has zero retirement savings.
For everyone who has been kind enough to respond with suggestions, I want to clarify the $100K is relevant only because I thought they were making less than $50K combined and that would have opened up higher levels of state aid.
Anonymous
He is def not eligible for the most common grant–the Pell Grant–with a parental HHI of $100,000.
Anon
1) You are super rightfully angry that they borrow money from relatives at that income. I’d say no from hereon out.
2) You’d be surprised at how many middle and upper middle class people have no college fund for their kids. My parents had mid-later in life well paying government jobs (with a HHI higher than you mention) and didn’t save a dime for any of their kids. It didn’t even occur to me that they would have because they spent all their money raising us and saving for retirment so we wouldn’t have to pay for them in old age. Now that we’re older they spoil their grandkid, take vacations, have pension and fully covered healthcare and don’t have to rely on us for anything. Saving a college fund is great but honestly not all that expected on middle class incomes.
3) Your nephew can actually qualify for a lot of financial aid with his parents at that income, sadly because schools are so insanely expensive. In particular if he’s qualified to get into some more elite colleges, he may get 100% tuition or a large percentage of that.
4) Student loans are not the end of the world, they are very common. What he needs to do is balance out the amount of the student loans with his intended field of study. Community college credits transferred to State U will save a lot of money.
5) Taking out loans or co-signing them for your child is usually a terrible financial decision, as being on the hook for someone else’s debt is alway a bad idea. It makes more sense for nephew to take them out personally and have his parents pay them off – but it doesn’t sound like they would anyway.
Vicky Austin
Ouch, that’s hard. What about academic scholarships?
ceej
Frustrating, but not uncommon! One thing to consider is this, or perhaps the last 3-5 years might have been especially good for them? Unfortunately for me, the year before I went to college my dad worked a ton of overtime, bringing the household income close to this.
Before community college, I’d consider an in-state state school. Tuition/ fees in my state is about $11,000. If he can live at home, that would reduce expenses significantly. If he can’t or doesn’t want to his parents might be able to contribute by paying rent/ meal plan. He can also work. If he works 10-20 hours a week at a $10/hour job he can make another $4,000/school year that can help with his living expenses. He can probably work it so he graduates with about the average debt of about $37k. Not great. But pretty normal.
Original Moonstone
Oh, the whole plan was to try to get him accepted at one of the decent state schools. That’s his stretch school, in fact! There’s no college where his parents live, so for sure he’ll have to pay for room and board. Our state schools are in the range of $27K (including housing/board/fees/books but not living expenses). Because there won’t be any academic scholarships, it looks like he’ll get about 5-6K of state/federal aid a year and he will definitely work. I was hoping his loans would be about 40K but now I think it’s more likely he will walk out with 80K to pay back.
Anon
Do not have him take on $80k of debt for undergrad, let alone undergrad at a “decent” state school. (CalTech, maybe. Not UNH.)
Original Moonstone
This is exactly why I am concerned. $80K in loans for a political science BA from a mid-level state school? That’s a problem.
Anon
Tthe rule of thumb is that loans should not exceed expected first-year salary. Now, there are data out there saying that the median income for college graduates is $50,000 a year, but that data are highly suspect (essentially, an estimate based on the advertised salary ranges for jobs requiring a college degree and no experience, not actual data collected from actual grads).
A political science major *who finds a job* will make an average of $35k a year starting. That should be his upper limit on loans, full stop.
ceej
Oh, with that academic range in mind, a community college might be great for him.
(I know this is not a marriage/parenting advice thread for the parents, but hooboy, that financial arrangement would be unacceptable, and the parents should have has that fight 18 years ago!)
Original Moonstone
Yeah, I really think that financial arrangement is the heart of the problem. She has no more to offer and the father is unwilling to use “his” money to help the student. I was pretty surprised.
Original Moonstone
Thanks all for the helpful advice. All my responses are delayed in showing up but I appreciate it. I don’t care (much) that there was no money saved, I just can’t get over that his parents are not willing to commit to contributing $4000-5000 a year while the kid’s in school to help him out. I think what’s happening is the mom pays for everything to run the household on her $56,000 salary and the father gives the mother half the rent and utilities but nothing else. So she hits up her siblings for money. I actually think she expects her siblings (including my partner) to magically come up with the tuition. All right, I will stop ranting about this. I had to get it out of my system so I didn’t start yelling the next time I see the parents!
Anon
Regarding financing college: the first order of business is to determine if the nephew can get admitted to a top-flight school. They generally have very generous financial aid policies that will make it affordable, and that kind of student is also a good candidate for merit aid at lower-ranked schools. If that is the case, he will need to apply to a lot of schools – target a few that meet full demonstrated need for all kids and, like Rice, are very inexpensive for people who earn about what his parents earn, and then target a lot of schools that offer generous merit aid.
Then he should look at state schools all over the country that have specific tiers for merit aid. (Look at Alabama to see what I am talking about.)
In these situations, going to community college is the wrong move: very few schools will give merit aid to someone who does not enroll as a freshman.
If he’s not the kind of kid to get a big merit package, then you should look into community colleges, colleges with very high “discount rates” (i.e. the difference between the advertised rate and the paid rate), very inexpensive state schools that offer ‘merit aid’ to kids in the middle of the pack (think, non-flagship), and service academies.
Anon
I would also be totally annoyed by this.
In regards to the kid, based on your follow up posts, might it make sense to delay college for a few years? If his academics and test scores aren’t great, he might totally benefit from a few years of work experience and then going to community college, even part time and transferring to a good state school down the road.
I don’t disagree that a college degree opens doors but he doesn’t need to necessarily get that right now. Especially if he’s going to have to take out a bunch of loans.
Original Moonstone
That makes sense. We will see what the financial aid offers are in March and then figure it out. I mean, first step is getting him admitted somewhere. On the plus side, he does not have his heart set on a particular college.
Thanks, all!
Anonymous
I 100% understand that your nephew (in law) asked for help with the college process — but it sounds like he took the initiative to go to the Navy recruiting office on his own? Is it worth even exploring his options for enlisting? Based on what you’ve posted about him (grades and test scores aren’t that great/not sure what he wants to do with his degree/thrives in the structure of his after school job/no parental resources for college), it doesn’t sound like an objectively terrible choice.
Original Moonstone
Yes, I think it’s worth exploring. I had hoped it would not be his only option.
AnonInHouse
You probably won’t read this since I’m a day late, but…I don’t think the military is a bad idea (if he’s interested; I wouldn’t be, personally). You know how everyone on this board always wonders how people get out of debt/into a good financial situation? Well, let me tell you about my husband: son of immigrants; first generation college student. Got an ROTC scholarship to prestigious flagship state U; served for 5 years; saved enough to pay for law school out of pocket; worked in big law for three years, able to pocket all his money because NO DEBT. He happened to go back into the service as a JAG, but even if he hadn’t, that 5 years of service set him/us up so well financially.
pugsnbourbon
+1. YMMV, but our state community college system has very good relationships with the state’s public four-year universities. They have very clear pathways in place for a transfer after two years. And I hear your concerns about CCs not providing “structure”. . . but honestly I don’t know how much structure you could expect from State School either.
Small Law Partner
This. Community college is inexpensive, and many students in my state (CA) also use it to transfer to a state school (mostly UC or CSU). He would really need to do well at CC though.
If he doesn’t know what he wants to do, maybe he should take a year (or two or three) off and work and figure that out.
Senior Attorney
I may be too late in this thread, but here goes: Someone who served in the Marines with my son is wanting to file for VA disability based on a mental health issue (not PTSD), and they are not sure where to begin. I did a quick internet search and it seems like there are attorneys who do these claims? And also maybe VFW can provide assistance? Do any of you have any experience with this, and any resources to which I could point this person? Thanks in advance!
Anon
Have this person reach out to the district office of their congressional representative. They can point you in the right direction and can facilitate getting the paperwork where it needs to go. There are staff that specifically work on these issues (health, VA, Medicare, immigration, etc.).
Anon
+1
Anon
+1
Anonymous
There are attorneys who handle VA disability claims, but it may be tough to find one who will handle an initial application – at least in my areas, they generally only help with appeals. Make sure to find one who’s actually VA-accredited!
For someone who’s just trying to figure out where to begin, I’d recommend finding a Veteran Service Officer. Each state should have at least one (in my state each county has one), and the VFW, Amvets, American Legion, and I believe a few other organizations also have VSOs.
Anonymous
And here’s a VA link to find VSOs and accredited attorneys: https://www.va.gov/ogc/apps/accreditation/index.asp.
Flats Only
This. I would start at the American Legion. I think the VFW skews older so their help may be aimed more at senior citizens.
Anonymous
My law school had a veterans’ clinic. Not sure whether they would help with initial claims or only appeals.
anon
I successfully represented an Iraq war veteran in obtaining VA benefits for a mental health issue. Those claims are hard to win, but not impossible. I’d suggest pointing him to the National Veterans Legal Services Program’s Lawyers Serving Warriors project; it’s pro bono but they provide really good guidance to the pro bono attorneys and heavily support them through the process. Difficult claims (and again, mental health claims are hard, especially non-PTSD claims) are something they’re very familiar with.
Anon
Check local bar associations. Our local city bar association has a veterans assistance project which does this type of work in partnership with firms
Senior Attorney
Thanks so much, everyone!
Hmmm
This is an odd situation, I could use some advice. I have a former landlord who I thought was a bit strange when I lived in her rental property around 10 years ago. A few years ago she started sending emails to me and a large group of other miscellaneous people that seem to be the writings of an insane person. They are slightly coherent rants about conspiracy theories involving her, the FBI, various other government agencies, celebrities, etc. I have always ignored them. Recently she somehow found my work email address and started sending some of them there too. My work email and the personal email she has been sending them to use different last names, so this took at least some effort on her part because I never told her my married name or that I even got married. I set up a rule to auto file them and ignored them. She has sent at least one email specifically to me which I think is accusing me and another resident of making fun of her (it’s hard to decipher). She lives in a different city several states away and has never tried to contact me except via email. Should I do anything about this? I thought about filing a police report, but “my ex-landlord in another state is sending me weird emails” doesn’t seem police-report worthy. What do you think?
Anon
Just block her – but also take some lengths to make sure your current address isn’t easily findable online (I’ve had to write in to local agencies to get my name removed). That level of crazy will jump and a car and drive to your house at a moment’s notice.
On a nicer point, it might be worth it to call in for a welfare check (pending consideration if police in that area are bound to turn a welfare check with a crazy person into a shooting death – ah good ol USA).
Anon
Ask your IT people to block the emails.
anon
this is probably over-reacting, but my first thought is (inspired by a neighbor recently showing erratic and hostile behavior including shooting at strangers), if I lived near this person, I’d be grateful if someone like you with actual evidence of this person’s change in mental state would flag this for the authorities. In my state, I believe that could mean the neighbor isn’t allowed to own a gun anymore. There is somewhat of a gap between legislation and enforcement, but still.
Hmmm
Thanks for the replies. That’s a good idea, to ask the local police to do a welfare check. I don’t think she’s in an area where it would be risky to do so. I checked online and don’t think my home address is easy to fine online. My work address certainly is, but my building’s security is strict enough to make me feel comfortable that she wouldn’t be able to get far without being on an approved visitor list.
anon
if you have professional security like that, you could see if they have a blacklist too, to be extra sure.
Anonymous
I would not block. It’s better if you can continue to monitor so you know if she’s threatening to travel or escalating with threats of violence and it’s also better to have a record of all of this in case you need to try to get some type of restraining order at some point. Also, I would report it through my local non-emergency number. If only so they can determine if a welfare check is needed. This record of contract also may be useful if you or someone else in her sphere may need some sort of evidence of her erratic behavior at some point (like a well-meaning relative trying to make a case for involuntary hold).
Anon
The auto-filing is a good idea. However, you might want to look at them periodically to see if there’s any specific escalation/threat about you.
I don’t know about calling the police, but it might be possible to call the police local to her to see if this is something they have resources to support (welfare check? Social services). You could decline to give her name if it sounds like they can’t help or they’d reveal your name if they did help.
Anon
My mother had a similar situation with a former childhood friend who lived several states away. At some point the emails started sounding threatening so she called the police department in this woman’s town and asked if she should file a police report. The had a productive conversation and in the end she did file a report. My understanding is that there was nothing actionable in the emails to date (insufficiently threatening by local legal standards) but the police department wanted a record of this in case the situation got worse or this woman started targeting anyone else. The emails stopped soon after that.
Pickles
No idea what’s going on with most of these comments, but full length pants would be an excellent trend comeback.