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Anon
Following up on the morning thread from the poster whose relatives are hijacking her vacation, I wanted to point out that sometimes, setting firm boundaries upfront isn’t necessary and it can make you look like a rigid jerk, whereas simply doing what you want to do quietly still gets you the same outcome with fewer ruffled feathers (speaking purely selfishly, fewer ruffled feathers is usually less stressful for the boundary-setter).
I learned this in the workplace – we had an employee who, right from the start, made a HUGE deal of announcing to everyone that she was going to leave at 5 on the dot every day because of work-life balance and that people needed to not send her things to do at 4:45 pm. She stated this firmly and clearly and it instantly earned her a reputation for rigidity. In the meantime, there were at least 6-7 other employees, including myself, who just…left at 5 every day. We didn’t announce it, we didn’t respond to 4:45 emails saying no, not doing it – we just left and came back and dealt with work the next day. Same with not checking email on vacations – we didn’t make a huge public announcement saying we wouldn’t do it. We just set up clear OOO messages and made backup plans for our projects and then didn’t check email.
What I think this looks like for that OP is simply saying things like “we’re happy in our condo” and “on Tuesday we’re going to visit this beach” instead of announcing “if you join this trip, we will meet you for one (1) dinner and two (2) beach days. We will not be spending any additional time with you. This is our nuclear family vacation and you need to respect that. You should not have booked this trip on the assumption that I would join you for everything; that is your own problem to resolve and I do not appreciate the mental labor you are foisting on me.” Speaking to your own parents and siblings that way just doesn’t work well. Just…do your own thing! When asked to book a house for everyone, say “you guys can go ahead on your own since we already have a condo we’re excited about – good luck!” When asked to join an excursion you don’t want to do, say “we’re going to go do X instead but I hope you guys have fun!.” When you feel like it, send a text to the group saying “let’s meet at X in 20 minutes!” Don’t have your phone on you at all times and don’t get drawn into arguments when they try to manipulate you – just be off doing your own thing.
Anonymous
+1 million. Sometimes drawing boundaries just looks like kindly and firmly continuing with your plan.
Cat
Also agree. Plus, sometimes plans like this die a natural death when someone like the OP doesn’t twist themselves around to make it happen. Relatives have to find a house they all agree on, oh wait airfare has gone nuts since they started looking, oh c-ap so-and-so’s passport expired……
Anon
Absolutely. Let them find out the hard way that logistics are challenging two months out.
Anon
Yes, 100. People here lament the loss of communities and friends, but if a friend or family member spoke to me the way many commenters this morning suggested, I’d also leave them the h3ll alone going forward. That’s obviously not what the OP wanted (she doesn’t want to share her trip, but she also clearly likes her family), and there are a million ways to enforce boundaries without alienating everyone. As the great Carolyn Hax would say, boundaries are internal — you cannot control other people.
Anon
+1,000 to the fact that boundaries are internal and that you can’t control other people.
Also totally agree to your first point. How you communicate boundaries can have a huge impact on relationship quality. A lot of conflict could be avoided by people not thinking that emotional unloading on someone is the same thing as being assertive or ‘communicating.’
anon
Yup. I’ll bet you dollars to donuts that her family ends up bailing anyway just because Thanksgiving travel is so difficult and expensive the longer you wait.
Anon
Ehh it really depends on the family I think. My parents are planners and if they announced they were joining me on a trip, there’s a 99% chance they’d show up and the 1% would be something serious and unexpected like a family health crisis. Nobody in our family lets passports expire and they’d check the prices and availability before deciding to come. Some people are flaky, but OP gave no indication that her family is and I think it’s weird to assume they won’t show up.
Anon
If they’re asking her to be the one to cancel her condo and do the house research for them, just two months out from Thanksgiving, they don’t give the impression of being the world’s best planners.
Anon
Preach!
Anon
Another million bazillion. It actually never occurred to me that people would say things like described. I’ve always just done my own thing quietly.
Anon
Wish I could give this a million likes. Boundaries are internal – what you are comfortable doing and saying yes to, and what you aren’t. You don’t need to make them external by trying to enforce what others ask of you, or proactively informing folks of your boundaries. This can often read as aggressive instead of assertive.
I think it is partially a lack of security in your boundaries that leads to over-vocalizing or trying to externalize them. If you trust yourself to abide by your boundaries, you don’t need to advertise them as forcefully from the get-go.
Anon
Agree with all of the comments. Just do your own thing. The lack of security thing resonated with me though. My nuclear family would always 100% want to hang out w extended family instead of just nuclear family. Make sure you’re on the same page w your spouse and kids.
Anon
Just throwing this out there: if you come from a boundary-trampling family, it is very difficult to enforce boundaries. You say and do X, they act like you said “not X” and steamroll or guilt you; it teaches you that healthy and reasonable boundary-setting (as described above) is wrong and ineffective.
This isn’t a criticism of you! I will just say, coming from a boundary-trampling family and now separated from a boundary-trampling husband (I have some horror stories), it doesn’t help to hear more of “you’re wrong.” It’s easier to hear “Normal and healthy people who accidentally overstep are best handled by this totally low-key and functional method. Don’t let dysfunctional patterns wreck your interactions with well-meaning people.”
Anon
But can’t you let them attempt to steamroll and guilt you without changing your plans or taking on that guilt? I’m definitely not saying it’s easy – it hasn’t been in my experience. But you don’t HAVE to take on guilt because someone tries to force you to.
Anon
Oh sweet summer child.
Anonymous
I’m so happy for you that there aren’t narcissists in your family.
Anon
Hahahaha good luck with that.
Anon
There are, actually. One of my brothers is a self-proclaimed sociopath and incredibly narcissistic. My mother has bipolar disorder and struggles with appropriate boundaries. That’s why I said it hasn’t been easy to avoid taking on their guilt trips.
Anon
I’m so sick of the rude, condescending “summer child” rejoinder. There are ways to communicate that you disagree without sounding haughty and superior.
Anon
Completely agreed, it’s a you problem if you feel like you have to take on someone else’s guilt trip. The narcissist can narcissist all day long but only you let them into your head.
Anon
Yep. My sister and her brood take no as maybe on a routine basis. Sometimes we just withhold information. For instance, in OP’s shoes, which I have been in, I would never tell my sister where my condo was, she would not step foot in the door lest she never step foot back out the door.
Anon
Aw, no I totally get that! I am that commenter, and I think part of why I feel so emphatically about this is because I came from a boundary-trampling family. I spent my young adulthood ruining relationships because I had textbook codependent patterns where I’d let people walk all over me and then get resentful, and would then emotionally unload at them when I finally did try to set a boundary. It took me years to finally work through that pattern, and now be able to trust myself enough to enforce internal boundaries and communicate them in ways that aren’t inflammatory/angry. I just really wish someone would have told me earlier that healthy/assertive communication doesn’t have to look aggressive, and that it’s more adaptive to not give other people the ability to call you angry or rigid (which then allows them to invalidate you even more).
You are absolutely not wrong, and reacting forcefully makes total sense as a reaction to people disrespecting your boundaries. I think literally anyone with that family/relationship history (myself included) learns the same patterns, and many without that history also have that response.
I think the one thing I’ll say is that it is more about protecting yourself than protecting the recipients’ feelings. If you don’t give them any room to call you difficult (or give yourself any room to doubt yourself, feel guilty, or wonder if you were too harsh) it just makes the boundary-setting process a lot easier to develop. Versus setting boundaries too forcefully, feeling guilty, doubting your boundaries and yourself, overcompensating the next time by being afraid to set boundaries, etc etc.
Sending a lot of love – it’s all a journey and we are all learning!
Anon
Thank you for understanding!
Here’s an example (TW): when I was 30, an abusive older brother threatened to shoot me at family Easter. Like with a gun.
I told him that I would not be attending. He turned to our parents and whined about what I brat I am. My family flipped out and started an intense pressure campaign. I told them that it wasn’t happening, sorry not sorry.
Cue DEMANDS that I get into my car RIGHT NOW and drive over. Nope. Finally, “Do you intend on driving 2 hours out here to my home, breaking down my door, and forcibly dragging me there? Well, then I suggest you drop it,” and I hung up.
Twenty minutes later, my bestie rings me up and tells me that my parents called HER to try to get her to pressure me into attending. She told them they were off their rocker and that I was acting quite sensibly, because no one in their right mind goes to family holiday with someone threatening their life.
(It took me a long time after that to understand that I didn’t want any one of those people, bestie excluded, in my life.)
Learning reasonable boundaries with reasonable people was a process.
Anon
That is literally nightmare material. I am so sorry you experienced that! Are you no contact with those family members now?
Familial abuse is so hard to set boundaries with, and all the more difficult when the rest of your family normalizes and enables it. I’m so proud of you for staying strong and committed in those boundaries and for removing yourself from such a scary situation.
Anon
I have no relationship with any of them anymore. It took me far too long to understand that it wasn’t just the brother who is the problem; it’s everyone who enabled him.
anon
Not OP or anyone who commented earlier, but this is super helpful!!! I did the same thing in early adulthood- failing to set boundaries and then getting resentful, leading to relationships tanking – and I think I’ve overcorrected. I still get anxious when setting boundaries and have the tendency to proclaim them aggressively. To me, that feels like being protective of myself, but I’m sure it doesn’t come off that way. I can get so focused on whether someone’s “disrespecting me” by not respecting said boundaries that I fail to consider the impact of how I’m communicating boundaries.
Anon
@4:31 I am so sorry you went through that. Your parents and siblings do not deserve to have you in their lives now. Don’t look back for a moment.
Anon
@ first 4:42 pm commenter: I’m so glad you are no contact! It’s so hard to parse out when an entire family system is toxic and dysfunctional (our family system literally creates our sense of what is and isn’t normal). Wishing you so much love and strength in your journey.
Anon
@ second 4:42 pm – It is so wonderful you have that insight! I would recommend trying to see where you may have areas of hyper-vigilance that are no longer serving you. Most people should be well-enough intentioned that you can gently assert your boundaries and release the idea that you are being disrespected or taken advantage of. And you can trust yourself to be firm in your boundaries, even if they push back, without having to be aggressive straight off the bat. Amazing work in learning how to vocalize your needs and feelings with people – it is so hard!
smurf
this is so well said & spot on!
I’m sure some of it is just the internet filter, but I am frequently surprised by how harsh/overly direct some of the suggested scripts are here!
Anonymous
Sorry we don’t all spend our time dressing things up with fluff and assume people can use their own brains to do that work themselves
Anon
It’s just more adaptive. It gets way, way easier to set boundaries if you don’t have to worry that doing so will create resentment or hard feelings.
Being angry or rude is almost never a helpful strategy, and it doesn’t take any additional time to be respectful in how you communicate.
Also – most of the nicer scripts are often more direct and pared down. The mean ones tend to have the editorializing about other people’s intentions or opining about why the request was so ridiculous. The nice ones usually just say some variation of, “I can’t do this unfortunately, best of luck.”
anon
Right. While OP’s family is being ridiculous and presumptuous, she could very easily say, “We’re going to stick with the condo that we booked. DH and I are planning to spend as much 1-on-1 time with the kids as we can since we haven’t gotten away as a family for awhile. We’ll join you guys for activities when we can.”
anon
Nobody’s saying use fluffy feel-good language. Just being less combative would be a positive step.
Anon
You are asking people to ‘do the work’ of assuming positive intent from a combative and aggressive text, rather than just not being combative and aggressive?
Unfortunately, that’s not the way most relationships work. If you’re mean and confrontational, people will experience it as you being mean and confrontational. Other adults aren’t responsible for contorting themselves to interpret everything you say in a way that reflects positively on you.
Anonymous
Lol. No. Read better.
Anon
Yes! Often the scripts read as very angry and bad-faith. It’s almost always more productive to be as pleasant as possible while being assertive. You get the same thing accomplished without any of the conflict or hard feelings. Adults should disentangle their feelings from how they communicate their needs/preferences.
Anon
Agreed, and well said.
Anon
Slow clap
anon
Reading the comments on this thread and the other one strike me as a test on those that have had overbearing, non-boundary respecting families and those that have not. As someone from the former, you’ve likely already had the polite conversation many, many, many times before you get to the boundary conversation.
Anon
I come from a family that has 0 boundaries, and I think that just doing your own thing is a lot more effective than trying to loudly communicate your boundaries. If anything, you get better at being able to do your own thing reflexively.
I would say the big emotional conversations about their behavior come from unresolved resentments and having anger/frustration to vent. Which can often lead to overbearing family members playing victim and acting like you’re rigid and difficult. Assertiveness isn’t aggressive or combative.
Anonymous
This. Just do your own thing and don’t give them the opportunity to complain. Yes, I do have difficult family members. A sort of grey-rock approach works best.
Anon
Completely agreed. I have a zero boundaries family and I’m totally silent on what mine are, I just do them. I actually consider my boundaries private information that I get to know and my husband gets to know and that’s it.
Anonymous
Exactly. If you tell them what the boundaries are, they will try to negotiate them. Boundaries are for you not for the person against which you are setting the boundary.
People who loudly assert their “boundaries” are usually the same people who make unreasonable demands of others. Openly discussing boundaries is a red flag for a “me me me” mentality. Quiet resolve and discretion are signifiers of true class.
Anon
100%
Anon
Yeeessss.
Anon
Yeah. I fully agree with the work part of this post. Don’t ask for permission to leave at 5 exactly, just leave at 5 most of the time. But I think with family, people often get to the point of being explicit about boundaries because they’ve tried to draw the boundaries over and over again and it hasn’t worked. And fwiw, I don’t have overbearing family, but I’ve seen it with friends.
Anon
I’m the former as well. Polite doesn’t always work. I’ve been dealing with it for decades. There’s a lot of directness and avoidance now. People like my extended family will take advantage and wedge their way into the slightest window of daylight.
Anon
Polite is the only choice o get to make and I try to always choose it (I skip on occasion). When your unhinged relative forwards screenshots around the family and inter webs, I want my kids and husband not to be ashamed or embarrassed of what I did.
Anon
I’d take the attempt at public shaming over having my family members show up on my doorstep on my own vacation – and in my case, it would also be assuming they can now stay with me.
Most people consider the source when receiving things like that.
Anon
You can be both firm and polite, no?
Here, OP was reasonably confident that the desired (by others) housing solution was not available anyway. You could benignly say “We’ve already got our place. Let me know if you find something else and decide to book.” knowing full well that they can’t; I had this happen with people wanting to come crash a room I booked for college homecoming JUST FOR ME.
For a family that’s normally reasonable, this is a knot to untie and not a cord to cut, no?
If they do decide to come, depending on the size of the place (the Greenbrier? Hot Springs?) you can just be “already scheduled” except as they want to be, right? If they were likely to get a place, then I might frame my trip as “We’d planned things out on this trip a while ago; next time, why don’t we jointly plan things so we can meet up more,” but only if you want to do that. OTherwise, just say the first part.
anon
+1 or a test of who has a family that fits into the cultural narratives of what family should be.
Anonymous
Yessss so many of these comments are like wow congrats on having a healthy functional family, those communication methods do not work for boundary crossers
Anon
Kinda wonder if OP is wedging her way into someone else’s tropical vacation.
Anon
Yeah, my mother not only wedged her way into my birthday vacation (booked the same resort), she invited five of her friends and billed it as an event for HER birthday (which was four months later). She even had t-shirts made up with “Susan’s birthday bash.”
I tried every reasonable method of establishing boundaries. My friend and I just cancelled the whole trip and went out to dinner in our hometown instead.
Anon
Omg, that is horrible Anon at 8:49! So sorry that happened to you.
Anonymous
I mean, cancelling the trip was a way of asserting your boundaries. Unfortunate that it came to that, but it prevented your mother from crashing the trip.
Anon
I guess I’m in the minority but I don’t think the workplace situation you described (and I totally agree with your advice for that situation) is a good analogy. If you leave work at 5 without announcing that you’re leaving at 5, you still get exactly what you wanted. You’re just taking what you want without calling attention to it, which is ideal. But if OP doesn’t explicitly draw boundaries with her family, she’s NOT getting what she wanted, which was a nuclear family vacation without her extended family present. The only way to get that is to be explicit that she doesn’t want them present. So I don’t see these situations as equivalent at all.
Anonymous
Right. I think it is fully insane to just say nothing let them come and then say no every day many times as they expect to do things together. Which they of course would since per these commenters you’d never have even told them you’d rather they not come
Anon
I think she gets to get what she wanted, which was a condo with just her family. “Oh, we have a place already. Let me know what you all wind up booking.” She doesn’t have to cancel and change. Who knows — maybe it’s too late to cancel anyway.
Anon
I wouldn’t leave it up to “who knows” personally.
Anon
She wanted a vacation with just her nuclear family, not just their own condo. Maybe she’s willing to compromise and vacation with extended family as long as they have their own condo, and that’s great and sometimes compromise is necessary, but let’s not pretend it’s what she originally wanted.
I said this on the morning thread, but I vacation often with my parents and genuinely enjoy their company, but I would be pretty livid if they crashed a nuclear family vacation even if they were happy to get their own living space. I love and like my parents but sometimes I want to vacation just with my husband and kid. That’s normal! And I have, ironically, been called “enmeshed” with my parents by commenters here because I spend so much time with them.
Anonymous
If she wanted her family to come she would have invited them. Her not inviting them was a clear statement that she didn’t want them. Directly challenging the type of person who ignores these signals is useless and is actually what they want. Just ignore and let them fail to find their own place and the problem goes away.
Anon
Agree! Work and family are not the same thing.
anon
I would rather be told “I’ll have time to have one lunch and one morning at the beach with you” before I book than fly somewhere expecting time with a loved one and end up with one lunch and one morning at the beach. I’ve been told “no, don’t come this time” by a close relative and as much as it stung, it was way better than flying out for limited quality time.
Anon
I agree.
Anonymous
100%. I also think it’s easier to communicate that in advance than having to have those stressful conversations in person while on vacation. It’s going to be harder for the person who isn’t comfortable setting boundaries to have to do that over and over on the spot, and it will more tempting for the boundary-ignorer to use emotion or their anger at having their plans changed to sway the conversation.
I have a really pushy friend who lives out of state. While I respect our friendship of 20 years, I’m also very clear in advance with our visits that “if you can’t make it by X time when I’m in town, I’ll be doing Y” and such. Getting burned too many times sitting and waiting for her or having my plans upset by her at the last minute has taught me to be more specific on what I will and won’t be willing to do. Does it stink to have to do that? Yes. But it’s what you have to do when someone doesn’t respect boundaries. By doing it in advance of the visit, I’ve also found I’m less likely to be talked into something I don’t want to do and feeling resentful afteward. Other friends, I can be much casual with and I’m way more willing to just sort it out in person.
Anon
Right, especially for the sibling from the morning post. The sibling may not realize that this “family vacation” has been foisted upon OP and deserves to know they will get limited time with their sister if they attend. You can say it with kindness but I think it is kinder to say it up front, before relatives fly somewhere.
Anon
A lot of what you said there works if you’re dealing with reasonable people. But I think you should assume people know their own families, which is what we were talking about this morning. I’m someone who comes from a family dominated by unreasonable people. You’ll have to trust that many of us have learned the hard way the importance of being what you would consider impolite.
Anon
But OP of that thread didn’t say that her family is totally unreasonable or that she feared for her safety (like that godawful Easter/gun example above – that is a different story).
Anon
You can be (incredibly!) unreasonable without committing literal criminal assault. My god, the bar is on the floor.
Anon
You know what the word “or” means, I presume.
Anon
Her family has already asked her to cancel her own accommodations & book somewhere they can all stay. The bar for unreasonable was passed a while ago.
Anon
Right?! I’m shocked by how many people are defending OP’s family here. They’re so clearly unreasonable to me.
Anon
I don’t see a single post defending her family.
Anon
4:35 poster said “OP didn’t say her family is totally unreasonable..”
She didn’t have to, because their behavior makes it obvious!
Anon
4:35 poster said “OP didn’t say her family is totally unreasonable..”
She didn’t have to, because their behavior makes it obvious!
Anonymous
I would looooooooove to see one of these holier than thou posters try to be polite with my MIL, she would trample all over them
Anon
Haha. We may be related.
Anonymous
I had this MIL. The answer was just to say no or ignore her. Confrontation and long speeches just added fuel to her fire.
Anonymo
OP on the morning thread here!
I appreciate this feedback and totally agree with how your employee should have handled it. But I disagree that it’s the same. I can’t simply quietly stick with our plans — eg, if I say “we can’t join you for dinner, we have plans” they will say “no problem, we’ll just go where you are going!” I think I need to communicate directly that I plan to spend 1-1 time with my children on this trip. I want that to land as gently as possible but I know feelings will be hurt.
I do agree that it’s not clear this trip will come together. We have flights and lodging booked (for sane prices) because I planned this months ago. No one else has…. So we’ll see.
Anon
Since you have two kids and mentioned one on one time, would it be possible to alternately give the kids to the grandparents so you have alone time with the other one? At least in my family my parents are far more interested in the grandkids than me, so giving them a kid for a while will get them to leave the rest of us alone, lol. (Assuming the kids are ok with this, of course).
But I feel you and I think you’re 100% in the right on this, even if you decide to tell them point blank you won’t see them.
Anon
Agree, as one of the people who comes from a boundary-crossing family. You’ll have to say something now, just in case they do manage to pull this off. “I’m really looking to spend a lot of one on one time with my kids this vacation, so I hope you’ll understand that I won’t be with you most of the time when you’re in Hawaii (or whatever.)”
They’ll try to guilt trip you, as you mentioned this morning, “Well, you must really hate your brother!” and you’ll have to learn not to take the bait. There are lots of emails/texts/facebook wall posts (I am not kidding) that I’ve learned to ignore in my own family.
Anon
Agreed – they’ll try to get you to take the bait and only you can choose to not. Gray rocking is helpful here.
Anon
“We have plans” is maybe better said as “we have our own plans.”
Anon
Drop the “we have plans” part, that’s an excuse and you don’t need to give people a reason to argue with you. You just say “sorry, we’d love to but we aren’t going to join the group for dinner tonight, but you all should have so much fun”. That’s how you do your own thing and keep it friendly and polite.
Anonymous
If anybody buys these, please report back. I’m curious.
Anon
I’m feeling very unappreciated and stuck at my job and I just found out that a colleague, who used to be at the same level as me, is getting national recognition. I’m just feeling so much regret at so many life choices lately. Coulda, woulda, shoulda . . .
Anon
Same girl same.
Natasha McShane
+1……sigh
Anonymous
I don’t know if it helps to hear, but as I’ve gotten older, I’ve seen so many times that careers ebb and flow. One minute, you are an unappreciated director being let go from somewhere as part of an organizational restructure, and the next minute, you find yourself as a respected VP at a company that supports and champions your ideas. “Value” set by external measures is very transient.
You also learn that you can’t win at everything–there are trade-offs. I’m fairly well matched in skill and talent with a former colleague. She has has won numerous national awards for her writing–but she can do that because her employer pays for the award submissions and affords opportunities to write the sort of content that wins awards. I frequently speak in front of national audiences–I can do that because my employer values speaking events more than writing. She seems jealous sometimes when she hears about the speaking–but honestly, I feel just as envious seeing her writing accolades. I used to win some of those awards in a prior role. It’s a trade-off for me that I can’t really pursue that now in my present role.
It’s very hard to win at everything, and it won’t always happen at the same stage in your career. You can only control where you put yourself to have the greatest opportunity to demonstrate whatever skill or talent has the recognition you seek. Some is pure talent. But a whole lot in life is luck and timing–and persistence in creating opportunities.
I know it sucks. Really, really sucks.
Anon
Reminder: life is not a meritocracy.
New Here
I’m looking for some new low heel brown boots for fall. Thoughts on these?
https://www.amazon.com/LONDON-FOG-Womens-Regular-Available/dp/B08DRV5BWP/?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_w=cGjuR&content-id=amzn1.sym.b7357207-673c-46e3-8e1e-3fc05e6f6106&pf_rd_p=b7357207-673c-46e3-8e1e-3fc05e6f6106&pf_rd_r=1YQEDNJAQ5DKHCKWA69N&pd_rd_wg=TNi1U&pd_rd_r=20187c9e-a691-4a38-bd50-aad101735263&ref_=pd_hp_d_btf_cr_cartx&th=1&psc=1
Anon
I’d trust the reviews on how well they hold up. Are you on a tight budget or trying to avoid real leather?
New Here
I’m willing to spend up to $150ish, so I can pass on this specific pair.
Anon
It’s such a classic look that my inclination would be to go for something that would last a few seasons with a little care. And I think if I went with non-leather I’d want it to be waterproof or have better durability reviews since it’s also a style that can be immensely practical if it’s tough. But I’m rough on shoes in general.
https://poshmark.com/listing/Cara-Roper-Frye-boots-5be3a697035cf17ce3259be7
https://relove.samedelman.com/product/penny-leather-riding-boot-whiskey-leather—c58c0a2e-a16f-59c7-80ac-89bdd10fd568
https://www.amazon.com/INC-Womens-Leather-Knee-High-Riding/dp/B076BTS2D7
Anon
So how about the Sam Edleman Mable — under $150 at Zappos and have leather uppers.
anon
I like the style, but I’d be afraid they wouldn’t hold up well.
anon
Fashion trends: I’m kind of over them. I’m tired of the cycle of buying and updating. It’s one thing when I have to replace things because they’re worn out or don’t fit well. It’s the buying for the sake of buying that seems wasteful. And yet, I get sucked into looking at new and shiny things and wanting them.
I’m in my mid-40s. By now, I pretty much know what works for my body type and lifestyle. I buy less than I used to, which is a good step, but it’s by far more than my spouse, whose style has basically been the same forever. He’s not debating whether to get barrel jeans vs. skinny jeans vs. wide legs, vs. flares, for example.
If you’ve managed to buy less/buy better/buy only for your style, would love to hear how you got there.
Anon
I know what I like too and I just wait for it to come around again so I can stock up. Right now I love that leopard, red and wide leg jeans are in. I’m buying up lots and will wear it through other cycles of fashion.
Anon
+1 – I look great in jewel tones and I am buying alllll the forest green, amethyst, deep pink that is in right now.
anon
OP here, and same. It has been hard to find these colors for awhile, so I’m pleased that they’re actually available this fall!
Anon
Yes! Please link to all the emerald green you’ve bought!
Red hair, green eyes, “autumn” here.
Anon
Dark emerald green was SOOO in around 2010-2012. I bought as much of it as I could! And I’m not an autumn at all – think Snow White. I love that deep cool green.
Anonymous
Another Snow White winter who loves a deep cool green here! A redhead who looks good in emerald is probably a cool-toned summer.
Anon
Men have it easier, period. Their bodies don’t change as dramatically (children, menopause), they aren’t villified or shamed for gaining a relatively small amount of weight, and their clothing is much more accomodating of shifts in weight than women’s clothing is. They also don’t have as much pressure to appear young/current – when was the last time you heard an older man called ‘dowdy’ for example? So – if you are updating your clothing in a way that isn’t breaking your budget, isn’t using a ton of fast fashion, and makes you feel good I’d continue doing what you’re doing.
That being said – do you feel like you know your body and what you like? I look fine in skinny jeans/flares/straight jeans but barrel and wide leg jeans are a hard no. I find the older I get the more I either need to shop in person to assess fit and quality or buy from a store I like and trust. I also buy less IRL (and don’t play the order/return game).
anon
OP here, and bootcuts have always looked best on me. They’re having a moment, at least. Weirdly, wide legs have the exact opposite effect and make me look like a Lego person. Skinny jeans work well because they follow the contours of my muscles and emphasize my shape.
And it galls me how much easier men have it in literally every respect. This gets more true the older I get.
Anon
Lego person in wide legs here. I do ok if they’re really flowy fabric, and wearing heels with them helps the look, but that’s not what’s trending.
Anon
Kind of. I get where you’re coming from. I’m ok not being “on trend” “current” or “fresh” like some commenters, but my style does tend to evolve along the same lines as current trends. Also in my 40s so I’ve had plenty of time to make myself a fashion victim. I don’t play around with pant cuts. I only wear things that positively accentuate my body. So right now it’s high waisted skinny jeans, pencil skirts, and in a nod to something more current, the Delaney sweater trouser from jcrew. If I can’t wear it right out of the bag, it goes back. I don’t do florals or patterns, because they look dated so quickly. Sometimes I’ll check out old outfits on posh mark and recreate a look that’s stood the test of time. The most productive way I’ve cut this down is to make myself busy enough so that new shiny items don’t catch my attention.
anon
Honest answer, I started buying more expensive clothes, nearly all natural fibers. Basically, I took my previous budget and only buy a handful of new things a season. Cuts remain fairly classic and non-trendy – e.g., straight, well tailored – for pants. I’ll buy one or two “trendy” items a season but that’s it. I normally try to remember that if you adjusted clothing prices in the 70s/80s to today’s dollars it would put you around the $200-$500 mark per item, and tend to buy in the price range.
Anonymous
That’s a really good point. I never thought about it that way. I was born in the early 70s and grew up with very few clothes. I think I’ve been really harsh with viewing my teens and what my parents would and wouldn’t purchase when you look at tit through that prism. It also makes me feel a little less cringy thinking about some of my early workwear purchases and how I’d wear them to death as tacky as they were.
Anon
I remember being very excited to find a polyester dress for “only $40” in 1997. That would be about $80 now, hardly a bargain-basement find.
Anon
I’m 48 and have stopped shopping as recreation. I used to go out with friends or my mom to shop all day, just browsing and buying. Now I shop to address a particular need: a black cotton sweater, a lightweight shoulder-season jacket, and so on.
I’ve found that I get the most bang for the buck by paying attention to which denim/pants silhouettes are current, and then I choose a scaled-back version of those. I’m not going to buy the baggiest jeans, but I have a looser-fitting pair from several years ago that reference the look without making me look like I’m chasing trends. I can typically get a few years out of a pair of jeans/pants with that approach. Tops are much easier if bottom silhouette looks modern. Natural fibers are far more durable, so I mainly stick to cotton, linen, wool, and silk.
I’ve also found that following women in their 40s and older on Instagram helps enormously. They dress beautifully but with less attention to trends. A few I like: 50something.se, californiaistoocasual, carolinesstylehacks, akiandkoichi, and.bloom.
Anon
+1 to stopping shopping as recreation. I realized a while ago that I don’t find it fun, I don’t find it relaxing, and it’s not “self care treat yo self” for me.
Anon
Honestly, I just wear what’s comfortable while being moderately in dress code for the event. I’m the poster from this morning who still wears black leggings everywhere. Why would I wear jeans or trendy pants when I can be comfortable? Shrug.
Anon
I wear a lot of black. The oldest items in my closet are all black and it’s no coincidence. Colors are more likely to make something look dated- certain jewel tones, that phase where everything looked like baby food, and now dusty tones give clothes an expiration date. I invest in statement pieces that aren’t trendy or of the moment. When I follow trends I only buy a couple items and don’t spend a ton on them. If your wardrobe is completely straight leg jeans and dusty sage shirts you’ll be out of luck within a couple years.
Sunshine
I don’t visit fashion blogs (even this one, I just read comments) and I don’t shop unless I have to buy a specific thing. I spend zero time looking at fashion online, whether that’s stores, social media, blogs, or whatever. I decided that instead of spending time looking at clothing and fashion, which I don’t find interesting, I’d rather do other things, and I instead started putting my time, money, and energy into those things. For example, I buy the jeans that fit best when I need new jeans. Otherwise, I don’t buy jeans. Clearly, I’m not fashionable. But I always look nice because I don’t wear worn out clothing and I dress approprately for the occassion. My mom told me that, unless you really are fabulously dressed, people forget what you wear, but they remember how you treated them. I stopped caring about the former and started caring about the latter.
Anon
I’ve skipped plenty of trends, like I never adopted the low rise trend back when, and cringe at the thought of it coming back. I also don’t wear cropped anything.
So I’m sitting out pants silhouettes that look bad on me. My style has change somewhat over the last few years, mostly in response to everything getting more casual. But I’m not fashion-victiming myself into anything that I objectively think looks stupid on me.
anonshmanon
Agree with a lot of the previous answers, especially that shopping is no longer a hobby. Related: I stopped buying magazines completely, which reduced a lot of the noise about all the ways I am not enough but could be enougher by buying something.
Other than that, I realized at some point that I can find enjoyment in seeing pretty or goofy stuff, but that doesn’t mean owning it is a good idea. It helps that I come from a pack rat family and am trying not to overstuff my house.
Anon
You’re right–the trend cycle IS wasteful and extremely harmful for the planet. Please follow BizarreGardeningAccident on IG. She has great resources from breaking out of the trend cycle, shopping your closet, and not giving a crap about trends.
Anon
Has anyone gotten a bag from Baboon to the Moon? They are all over my SM feed and their pocketed cross body bag looks like it would be up my alley.
Anon Pescatarian-Low Oxalate
Thank you to everyone for menu suggestions on my post this morning!
cc
Can I ask a question on men’s fashion if anyone has feedback from the men in their life? My husband is looking for a comfortable dress shoe and came across a brand called Amber Jack and asked if I would ask this site if anyone has heard of them or has feedback :) he is also looking at a Cole Haan with the Nike air sole
MLent
Speaking of Rothys, my husband just got a pair of the men’s loafers and loves them. He rarely actively follows up about something I buy for him (for good or bad, sigh), but after the first wear he asked if they came in other colors! He said they’re super comfortable and lightweight and he’s excited to pack them for trips since they can withstand a smush. They’re not quite workwear or wedding formal, but they work nicely with a pair of slacks for a nice dinner or cocktail party.
Anon
Can anyone help me choose a living room rug? Or suggest a color. I hate rust, so not that.
– Less than $300
– Made of polyester (NOT polypropylene)
– Ideally on Amazon as I have a credit
– Couch is white/ivory, furniture is black wood (a tiny bit of brown wood mixed in) and black metal with ivory marble. Accents are evergreen.
Anon
How do you feel about a classic Persian style rug? A red based Persian rug would work beautifully with all of that.
My feet are on a polypropylene version of one right now. It’s in my dining room and I wanted easy care. I have “real” rugs in other rooms, and this one honestly looks just as good from a distance and is easy care. I will link separately.
Anon
This is my exact rug.
https://a.co/d/eIQxuKq
Anon
A rug like this really ties the room together
https://thebiglebowski.fandom.com/wiki/The_Rug
Anonymous
LOL
Anon
Here’s one that says it’s polyester:
https://a.co/d/1JwrKS3
Anonymous
Can I ask why the specification of polyester over polypropylene? Plastic is plastic, no?
Anon
I have felt dozens of rugs in person and found that the ones made of polyester feel much, much softer.
Anon
I also like nylon (like they use for carpets sometimes) but can never find it. Completely agree that polyester is softer than polypropylene.
Anon
Get a wool rug you can find them close to your price point and they wear so much better.
Anon
For example, I’d get this base on your furniture description- warm up the space with a little pattern and keep it neutral and go with wool
https://www.amazon.com/Safavieh-Collection-Handcrafted-Traditional-Medallion/dp/B08Z8MBGRD/