Frugal Friday’s Workwear Report: Slim Turtleneck Sweater
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Our daily workwear reports suggest one piece of work-appropriate attire in a range of prices.
No one is more shocked than me about the fact that I’m in my 40s and shopping at Abercrombie again, but here we are.
This slim-fit turtleneck has great reviews and looks like a nice basic for the office or the weekend. I would pair this with a midi skirt and boots (add a pair of fleece-lined tights if you need an extra layer of warmth) or layered under a wool blazer for a winter-appropriate business casual look.
The sweater is $30, marked down from $60, at Abercrombie and comes in sizes XS-XL. It also comes in cream, green, and dark indigo (lucky sizes).
Looking for plus-sized option? Try this Eloquii sweater — it's $41 and up at Nordstrom.
Sales of note for 2/14/25 (Happy Valentine's Day!):
- Nordstrom – Winter Sale, up to 60% off! 7850 new markdowns for women
- Ann Taylor – Up to 40% off your full-price purchase — and extra 60% off sale
- Banana Republic Factory – 50% off everything + 15% off (readers love their suiting as well as their silky shirts like this one)
- Boden – 15% off new season styles
- Eloquii – 300+ styles $25 and up
- J.Crew – 40% of your purchase – prices as marked
- J.Crew Factory – 50% off entire site and storewide + extra 50% off clearance
- Rothy's – Final Few: Up to 40% off last-chance styles
- Spanx – Lots of workwear on sale, some up to 70% off
- Talbots – Flash sale ending soon – markdowns starting from $15, extra 70% off all other markdowns (final sale)
Apropos literally nothing, I’ve recently started having very s*ex*ual dreams about a direct report. Like, literally this had never crossed my conscious mind, and yet here we are. No real life chemistry or flirting or anything. And yet these dreams happened multiple times now. I do not feel this way about them, I’m in a happy relationship, etc. etc., but it has made me self-conscious and awkward in my management of them, as if they can read my mind somehow. This is obviously not fair to them.
I’ve never had this happen, is it going to self resolve in short order? Strategies other than “be normal!!”? Having them switch managers is not an option.
I have had bosses, coworkers, professors, and – in the absolute weirdest one – a COUSIN pop up in this type of dream. Who knows what kind of stuff my subconscious was organizing but thank the Lord it sorted itself out ASAP.
It’s happened to me too, dreams are weird. Honestly just be normal is how you manage it.
I once read an article about interpreting dreams in a teen magazine 30ish years ago that said that romantic dreams about a person means you are becoming better friends. I always focus on that in these types of situations and somehow it helps it not feel so awkward.
I like this analysis. I had those types of dreams repeatedly about a male co-worker who I really didn’t like at first, but who turned out to be a wonderful person and great advocate for me at work as I got to know him better.
Yeah, don’t read into it more than it is. Just think, huh, brains are weird, and move on. Dwelling on it makes it worse. It’s no different than any other intrusive thought.
I had ongoing dreams about my contracts professor in law school. He was not really attractive. But he was in my dream!
Every time this type of scenario happens to me, it resolves itself pretty quickly and the awkward feelings fade.
The dreams never feature my real crush, which maybe is for the best if it keeps me from silly mooning over them IRL!
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I’ve had this happen with the most random people as well!
I just remember that I’ve had a lot of other weird stuff happen in dreams, so something popping up in a dream means very little in real life (unless it’s dreaming about a hard conversation the very next day or missing an early morning flight the very next day, where it’s the exact situation in the immediate near-term).
Sometimes I try to make sense of it, and it’s usually some combination of watching a TV show, skimming work email, and seeing a random skincare ad on Instagram right before bed. But all of those get jumbled up such that a former colleague is the romantic lead in a new Broadway show that’s advertised on Facebook.
I have read that this kind of dream is manifested when you want to please someone in some way. That has borne out for me and most of the examples given here seem to fit.
A very senior person at my government agency will be at my office in a few weeks. He is the #2 person in the agency. I’ve met him once but it was by chance at a large conference and only for a few minutes. Other than that, he is WAY above me and we don’t interact during the course of my normal job. He is coming to our office to mingle with “the people” and has offered to have 15 minute 1 on 1’s with anyone who wants to have one. One part of me wants to do it as I feel it would be a great way to get to know my leadership better and get on a first name basis with him. The other part of me is a bit scared as I don’t have any specific concerns to discuss with him. Would you do it? What would you talk about? I should add that I am new to the agency, only about a year in (but 10 years into my career).
I think you should do it. Ask him about himself, or about a specific policy you are working on that he might have an opinion on. Something that is in your wheelhouse so its specific but that is of general interest in the org.
Absolutely, positively do it.
I’ve been in a setting where I was the one offering these 15-minute meetings, and based on that, I can tell you that what frustrated me most was someone who came in and went on and on about themselves. I would think, “You have my entire attention, and I’m an expert in the field you want to be in. Aren’t you going to ask me anything about how the field works, what steps you should be taking, what actions would help you move forward, or what I wish I’d have known or done when I started out?”
(Also, you will not then be on a first name basis with him. Unless you’re stellar, he likely won’t remember you. These types of meetings become a blur after they’re over.)
You should absolutely do it. Start with small chit-chat (how were your holidays?) and then you could talk about a few things below (I don’t know your field, so you’d change the wording to make it make sense for your work):
1. Are there any new programming/initiatives the company is thinking about?
2. How did you get into this field?
3. What kinds of challenges do you see coming up for us (eg, with AI, with the new administration, whatever makes sense)?
+1
Well, sounds like the company is the federal government so I would guess that definitely yes there are some new initiatives coming starting next week.
Absolutely do it. Come prepared with a list of questions, as others have said, about him, any advice he has, etc. Also be prepared with an elevator pitch of who you are and what you do, and one or two interesting projects you’ve had success on. See this as a strategic opportunity to know more about this person, and honestly try to pick up some anecdotes or pearls of wisdom that later down the road you can drop, “When I met with Joe last year, he mentioned that XYZ.” Reality is that stuff looks good even if it’s transparent.
If anyone tried to first name drop the CEO of a company or the head of an agency, I would just think they’re Such a douche. Unless you are actually meeting with this person on a near weekly basis, it’s so transparent that you don’t actually know what they think and instead just have an inflated ego.
Do it! And it’s definitely not the time to air concerns. It’s more like meeting your in laws for the first time – keep it light but make a good impression and ask more questions than you do talking.
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What do you wish you would have been told as a first year associate, or are grateful someone shared with you? I’ve been out of school 20 years, recently assigned to our firms mentoring committee, I have two brand new lawyers (barred in fall ‘24). I am to meet with them 1:1 in person month in Q1 then every quarter thereafter. Zero guidance or rubric. I’m outside their practice areas (which is intentional) and will not directly supervise their work.
I’m not a lawyer and this has nothing to do with law – but my mentor told me year 1 to never repeat anything I wouldn’t want announced at a team meeting. I took that to heart and have since been 100% uninvolved with any office drama that has taken place. I’m also a confidant for many people as they know I don’t gossip.
This is great advice. I broke this rule as a first-year associate and was (kindly, bless her) called out by the person I repeated the Thing about, and I still cringe thinking about it.
Go into the office. They will miss so many opportunities to learn and advance their career if they prioritize their couch and comfort. And pick up random assignments. If a partner is looking for help, volunteer. Be the go to person. Do the work well.
-however much you think you know from law school, you really don’t
-your primary assets are the ability to be a quick study, attentive to detail, and responsive
-if you do a good job with the lower-level work you’re assigned, that’s how you get more interesting projects. Ex. if you’re asked to proof a document for correct use of capitalized terms, and you notice two sections that seem inconsistent but that are in different areas of the document, ask the supervising associate how they work together.
-when you’re given an assignment, ask about how long the partner thinks it should take, and check in if you think you’re going to go significantly over – you may be missing something and spinning your wheels, or you might be going too far down a rabbit hole, or you might have found something the partner didn’t think about, but in any event don’t run the meter before you know which one it is!
-follow-up questions once you’ve started working on something are great, but try not to piecemeal them
-particularly if they went straight through. Unlike school, when you hand in work product, if you think of something else afterward – by all means bring it up! it’s not like an exam where you have to wait for a grade. Of course ideal if you don’t have this happen but sometimes when you’re in a quiet moment and just thinking about your project, or you’re chatting with a colleague about an unrelated thing, something comes to mind.
-administrative assistants are a gold mine of helpful information on partners’ preferences – treat them with respect
I agree with this from a tactical perspective. From a career perspective, the best advice I ever got as an attorney was don’t be afraid to specialize if you like the work you are specializing in. I think a lot of attorneys at firms worry about being “pigeon holed” and “narrowing exit options” if they start working in a more specialized area or focusing on a subset of clients. This partner told me that you still have plenty of opportunities, they just look different, which has turned out to be true for me. If you stay at a firm, having some specialized expertise that is valued can be an asset and allow you to negotiate for things that may matter later in life (e.g., more flexible work schedules, etc.).
It is a good idea to understand what those specialties mean though in terms of long term options. I don’t disagree that it can be valuable but some will keep you bound to a firm and others will provide a lot of in-house opportunities.
+1000 to this. Not that many companies are in the market for, say, a full-time ERISA specialist, but you can definitely have a long and stable career at a firm doing that.
I agree with this with one minor caveat. If you are given an assignment by a senior associate ask the senior associate your questions and provide that person with your work product. We have had an issue recently with new associates bypassing the senior associate and going straight to the partner with things the partner does not have the time or inclination to deal with. Chain of command is a real thing and (absent evidence of malfeasance) needs to be respected.
Take the initiative. Raise your hand. Volunteer for tasks; don’t just wait for assignments.
Best advice I ever heard was from a senior partner who said, “Your career is long and can survive more detours and missteps than you think.” It made me not dwell so much on the day to day and trust that everything would work out.
I’d add don’t hide mistakes or issues. They’re much easier to deal with early and the cover up is always worse and can be fatal.
Oh, this! Repeat after me: “It’s not the crime/mistake that will do you in, it’s the cover-up.”
Relatedly, somebody once told me that 90% of the people in jail for white-collar crime were convicted of something they did AFTER the investigation started. Like covering up evidence. Don’t let that happen to you.
I agree with this but would add – it depends on how you react to the detours and missteps. If you make a mistake on an assignment and blow it off like ‘oh everyone makes mistakes whatever’ that’s a different outcome than ‘I’m sorry I missed that, can we go over X one more time to ensure I don’t repeat it’
To be clear, she meant more like, taking a risk on going into a new practice group or taking a new job, more of the meandering career path situation, not like oh you screwed up and it’s fine. Definitely don’t screw up. :)
This is such good advice, and I wish I’d heard it earlier in my career. (By the time I did, I was like 10 years in, and had already survived a few detours and missteps, so it was more validating than eye-opening.)
I would set up the meetings in a way that makes them take ownership in their own growth. You could leave it to them entirely: “Bring me three case study questions related to something you’re working on or issues you’re running into, and we’ll talk through them” or give them a category: “Next time, we’ll talk about how to manage tracking and billing hours / working with admins and paralegals / understanding partners. Bring in two areas where you know you want to learn or grow, and I’ll also give you a couple of things to think about.”
Please don’t do this. Mentoring is supposed to feel collegial and have some degree of trust. Channeling your inner elementary school teacher is not the way to go here.
Agreed. Not the point.
At our firm, the non-subject matter mentors are supposed to be your “oh shit” mentor. The one you can talk to about all the things you’re uncomfortable saying to the senior attorneys you actually do work with. Consider whether that is an appropriate role for you, and how you might build the trust required for that kind of relationship. Lots of other good advice here (and some not-so-good–I strongly agree not to Socratic method this!!)
Agree! A good way to open that door with mentees is to share your own challenges and hiccups and how you overcame them. I directly ask what is going well for you, what’s challenging, and how can I help you navigate your team?
A really important lesson is to treat the partners like clients. That doesn’t mean be overally formal or hide mistakes from them! It means be professional, take deadlines seriously, and do what you can to make their life easier-having that attitude goes a LONG way.
For juniors, I went with there are no stupid questions, and you are outside their review process and a safe space, and then see what they want to ask.
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That’s on you. After ten years you really haven’t developed the guts to put a stop to that? Take some ownership here.
This is insane you should never pay for colleagues coffee orders
this poster has been saying some odd things in other threads…
To bill their time and let the billing attorney write it down (or not). Don’t self-sabotage your billable hour goals. The flipside, of course, is that you need to be focused while you are billing and not also googling random things that pop into your head or texting friends or whatever is not billable work. I hear so many associates say they don’t enter all of their time.
The first day I arrived at the firm, a senior partner in my group told me that in our practice, the client goes to jail, not us attorneys. Meaning we don’t cut ethical corners or vouch for clients, or do anything else that jeopardizes our law license and exposes us to criminal risk. I wish I had been advised to get out there in the firm and be friendly, and don’t just focus on the individual work contribution — sometimes it is important to be liked in addition to being right.
Happy Friday! I’m invited to play pickle ball with friends at a county club in a few weeks. Its in New York and indoors. They insist it’s fine I’ve never played. Can someone help with a cute outfit? I’m not much for racquet sports but happy to spend money if it’s something that would also work for golf this summer. I’ll probably also need shoes. Thanks!
You do not need shoes or a new cute outfit. Wear sneakers you own, leggings, and a top.
This might be a want rather than a need.
I support and encourage the purchasing of a cute outfit to try out a new activity.
You’re my people HC!
Disagree, ask your friend. This is fine for a city park but most country clubs have dress codes. I’d pick up a longer length tennis skirt and plain workout top, something cheap on Amazon that looks coordinated.
Something like this
https://www.donajobrand.com/products/classic-skirt-skort-white-19
Oh, my–that is awful.
It’s what people wear tho at my country club
In what century?!? Even the ritziest country club in our Southern city only requires that tennis skorts be fingertip length or longer.
Do not wear something like this. Just get a regular tennis skirt or a cute pair of shorts with a top. I have several tennis skirts from Lululemon but keep in mind they are mostly all high rise and have compression. The most comfortable tennis skirts I have are from a company called lucky in love. On top I just wear any short sleeve technical top which I might also wear for running, etc.
yeah, the ‘cute pickleball outfit’ tennis-esque attire can be found at Tuckernuck, Lulu, etc. but it’s not really the same look as golf…
That was my thinking. The friend who is hosting us all for the weekend at the club was very specific about the non sports dress code but vague about the sports dress code. Leggings don’t feel right but it didn’t occur to me a tennis skirt would need to be this long! Tuckernuck had some cute skirts and scalloped shorts that I would definitely wear to golf but I don’t want to embarrass the host here. I suppose I’ll ask.
Oh it can be shorter, just not the lulu length the kids wear.
Do they have any social media pages or has their location been tagged in Insta? Take a peek and see how people are dressed.
That’s what I’d do.
Leggings are what I’ve worn outdoors for pickleball at a Westchester country club. And what many other people wore as well.
Agreed. In the winter, leggings are fine at our country club for the pickleball courts. But OP, you would be better off asking your friend who is a member at this particular club vs a bunch of non-NY internet strangers.
I have never heard of a tennis court that allowed anything other than tennis shoes.
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Ask your friend or check their website in case they have any rules (collared shirts required, no midriffs). If there is golf, they may be more likely to have the collared shirt rule. Our raqcuet-only club had no rules for years and had to add them recently due to some scandalous items pickleball or platform players were wearing; had never been an issue when it was just a tennis club. Now, you can only have bare midriffs at the pool, not on courts of any sort.
IIRC, I think the issue was people just wearing sports bras as clothes.
Call the club and ask the dress code for the indoor courts. There almost certainly is one, from as benign as no shorts below a certain length to as extreme as white clothes only from head to toe.
Call the club. In my area (southern Westchester), the pickleball courts at the tony beach clubs do not have tennis white policies like they do for the tennis courts. So a cute outfit would be a cute athletic outfit. I do prefer tennis sneakers for pickleball over running sneakers because of the side to side motion. I probably wouldn’t buy tennis whites if I didn’t know how to play tennis already. Have fun! I’m a terrible pickleball player but I have a lot of fun playing.
Ask your friend to send you a photo of their pickleball outfit/s for ideas.
And if you google Target Pickleball Apparel you will see some photos that will hopefully give you a feel.
I haven’t really exercised since my kid was born a year ago and want to start working out after my kid’s bedtime, since I can’t seem to find any other time in the day. I’m often solo parenting, so can’t leave the house. Any recommendations for apps or similar with a variety of workout videos? I would like to make this fun so I keep doing it, so maybe dance videos?
I like the Les Mills on-line classes, which are identical to the in-person versions. Bodypump is strength training that’s actually choreographed to music. Grit is HIIT with music in the background. There are others, but Bodypump and Grit are my favorites.
The official Les Mills equipment is expensive. I have been very happy with a barbell and plates from Body Sport, dumbbells from Target, and a generic step bench.
+1 I did Les Mills during the pandemic with the limited exercise equipment I could find used at the time. I like that Bodypump is the same online and in person, so if you have to go to gym or the Y while your partner watches baby, you are continuing your journey.
The bodycombat is kickboxing to music without equipment.
Been doing Bodypump classes online for almost a decade. Discovered it at my gym 15 years ago. Love it so much, and get great results in my 40s. Though now I have no shame about dropping reps, keep weight low, and generally moving slower to avoid joint issues.
Fitness Blender. They have a lot of free workout videos, but I paid for the Plus version. I like doing their workout programs because the video is picked out for me each day and it’s one less thing to think about.
+1 but I actually prefer their older videos so stick with the free version and the older paid workout program plans (one time purchase; it is basically a schedule of videos but their calendar feature works really well).
Same situation with small kids and post-bedtime workouts. I ended up getting a subscription for the Peloton app, and eventually renting a Peloton bike. I’m surprised how much I like it because I previously was not a group exercise class person. I like that the app has a huge variety of classes (yoga, meditation, upper body weights, lower body weights, core, hiit, bodyweight-only strength, barre, dance cardio, outdoor running) when I don’t want to do the bike. I like that I don’t need multiple apps to access different types of workouts or a bunch of equipment; I just need my phone and the rug in my bedroom. Many of the instructors are women in their late 30s with young kids, so I find it inspiring that post-baby life isn’t doomed to frump (even if I’ll never achieve their level of fitness).
I like Peloton’s workouts (no bike required). They have a big variety, including some dance cardio, and most importantly for me – good music. Many free YouTube videos are great but don’t pay to license music so the music is boring/not motivating for me.
For a higher price point, DanceBody is a dance based workout in NYC that’s awesome and offers an online version.
I’ve done a ton of Get Mom Strong videos at night, after my kids are in bed. The programs are mostly strength training but there is also a lot other content, like a barre program. If you’re mostly interested in dance, maybe try Moves with Molly?
If you get a treadmill, the suite of programs with iFit has been fantastic. iFit comes with proform and nordic track treadmills. I really enjoy that it has a ton of hikes from all around the world programmed in that you can watch on a big screen as you hike. iFit also has tons of classes, similar to Peloton.
I have a NordicTrack and haven’t bought iFit. Thank you for the review!
(Not the OP.)
The Every Mother app is fabulous – it’s specifically for dealing with pelvic floor challenges and also has general workouts.
Assuming you live in the cold weather, are there indoor places where you can walk with a stroller?
Obe Fitness – they have a lot of everything, including dance workouts. Note that they don’t use popular music but the instructors are fabulous.
I received an Apple Watch for the holidays and I am loving apple fitness workouts. I get up in the morning around 5:45 before the kids are up and do 10-20 minutes of cycling, strength, or pilates/core workouts. I love the music options and that you don’t need special equipment. My bike is 12 years old and was very cheap at the time. If my kids wake up, I either pause and come back to it or bring them with me and they watch like it’s tv while I finish up. My daughter sometimes joins in!
Doyogawithme.com—excellent Canadian yoga site with some of the best teachers I’ve ever studied with (including my favorite NYC yoga teacher).
You should start with MommaStrong or a similar post child birth workout. You may not realize it but your core and glutes probably need some very specific work that is more along the lines of physical therapy vs a workout. Jumping into regular workouts is how your hurt yourself and end up wasting so much time for sub-optimal results.
I’m a lawyer at a F500 and I want to get an idea of whether this is a department issue or it’s like this at all large companies. I am feeling burnt out by the endless push to do more with less in the name of shareholder value, and personally I also struggle with the constantly changing goalposts for any advancement opportunities. The company itself is fine and seems pretty ethical compared to most. Still, I can’t help dreading work most days and the barrage of buzzwords I know will be coming my way. We’ve had a lot of turnover so I don’t think I’m the only one feeling this way, but I’m not sure the grass will be greener on the other side or that I’ll have any luck finding a comparable role in this market. Wisdom from the rettes is appreciated.
I think this is pretty typical of large companies. I feel your pain.
This was typical at my F100 company. I’m specifically targeting smaller, regional companies for my current job search, looking for fewer time zones and less publicity.
being at a public co does add an extra layer of pressure, but any large company has its fair share of buzzwords, office politics, and goal to keep expenses down!
I understand that and the private companies I’ve worked for had similar goals for expenses and their own lexicon, which is fine. I think it’s more the way that it is talked about here that is so cringe to me. I guess I don’t think shareholder value is something that needs to be discussed on a day to day basis by middle management. Call me crazy!
You’ll never get anywhere there if you see the culture as cringe. It’s fine to have that opinion, but you should start looking.
Isn’t that kind of culture present everywhere run by dudes with MBAs?
It doesn’t matter, of you can’t stand it that shows and you’ll never move up.
It’s the drive for constant year over year growth that drives me nuts. That’s how the stock market works, I know, but is your company really able to grow so much it overtakes the GDP? It’s unsustainable and leads to poor decisions.
(Source; 20 years at a F50)
I’m a lobbyist, and one client with a niche product wanted to introduce legislation solely because it would help expand their business. There was no public policy argument at all, just the CEO freaking out about how he had promised the board more growth, even though the market was saturated for their product. Could the company be happy with its current stats as the biggest, etc? No. More growth, more profits!
I will say my large in-house legal role definitely has the first problem, doing more with less, constantly, and scope creep. However, I have not found an issue with the second – the guidelines for promotion at my company are very clear, and people in the legal dept are routinely promoted once they meet the criteria, no moving goalposts whatsoever. I actually think it’s a function and an upside of our size – it would be blatantly unfair and ripe for discrimination to do it any other way because it’s impossible for leadership to have direct experience with everyone, so they just apply the metrics consistently. Just my anecdata that you may be able to find something better in that regard if it’s important to you.
This is why I went to public service tbh. There are still plenty of buzzwords and acronyms, but at the end of the day, I was tired of feeling like all my work went to line the pockets of execs and shareholders who didn’t know who I was and didn’t care. No slag on people who like their jobs and it doesn’t bother them, but it wasn’t for me.
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Hi! I could be your coworker. Commiseration on all fronts. I’m working on boundaries, framing demands as “they pay me for X hours, which is indicative of the amount of effort and time to be invested in this workload” rather than “must get everything done that someone tries to push onto my plate.” I’m not coasting but am taking a step back from striving for promotion and more responsibility this year – and keeping options open to move if the opportunity is right. I’m paid well and get a good bonus, and my work is genuinely interesting.
Out of curiosity, are there any investment bankers here? I know it’s a hard field for women.
Didn’t take the investment banker path but may be able to help if you have a specific question. I am buy side but lots of friends and colleagues who did IB.
Same boat as other poster–also buyside, but lots of friends who did/still in IB.
Also, any other LO or L/S equity investors around here? I’ve always been the only woman on my teams.
I’d be curious, too. I considered it but nope’d out real fast. I’m in transactional commercial real estate finance/investments/private equity/whatever you want to call it, though. Extraordinarily male dominated, particularly in my niche within the niche. It wears on ya….
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Agree. I didn’t get to be an MD by being polite ;)
My first job out of college was IB, but it was 20+ years ago.
I found it really, really unsustainable I worked mostly for a coked-up promoted analyst. I did not do coke, and therefore, after literally months of working well past midnight every night, my hair started falling out, and my period stopped. Without substances, I could not work that much. Physically, banking was too much for me. Like I cannot not sleep for months at a time. My team allowed Friday nights off and usually Sunday mornings, but really all of the rest of the time, I was at work, until very, very late. If I went home before midnight, it was a great night. And my group required butts in chairs by 830am. It was hard.
Beyond that, I was not in the US, and so the sexism was extra-rife. Female analysts were taken off clients who “didn’t want girls running their numbers.” My team would disappear when I went to the bathroom at team dinners–they’d pay the bill and head to the strip club. The only women senior bankers were not very senior and were staffers. Senior bankers slept with assistants, HR and creative services. And, icing on the cake, another female analyst from my group married one of the two MDs in our group. Guess who wasn’t laid off when hundreds of others were? The analyst that was sleeping with the head of our group.
Banks are somewhat better now, in that there are more women. But Finance is still a very male dominated industry. A lot of the dealmaking and networking happens where women are not welcomed, in informal settings. Guess who’s not invited to the hockey game or baseball game or golf day? The women.
Last, I really hated how awful the culture was for families, for being a person, having any kind of life or hobbies outside of work. Many of the senior bankers openly cheated on their wives with staff or had open marriages. Many of them had really screwed up kids in reform schools. Lots of them had multiple nannies. As a 21 year old woman, this wasn’t where I saw my life going, or something I wanted to be part of. I needed to not stare at excel and ppt for 18+ hours a day.
So yeah–I didn’t want to stay in banking, and I peaced out to business school to change careers.
The good:
– excellent computer skills, excel skills, ppt skills, research skills, ability to juggle, ability to take lots of abuse at work with a smile.
– fantastic, trauma-bonded friendships (my analyst class just had a reunion abroad and it was freaking fantastic to see where we were 20+ years later)
– brand name on my resume that opened doors
Did the good outweigh the bad? Not sure.
I was in investment banking earlier in my career and I’m now on the principal side.
For those working in the PE area, so PE firms ever have subject matter or industry experts when the put a new CEO at a new portfolio company? Like if you buy a chain of oil change shops or an anesthesia practice, do you have a guy from somewhere in the automotive supply chain industry or someone who at least has a medical or hospital admin background to go in and run things? Or just a 25YO from Harvard because they won’t do any more than go in and fire the bottom 25% of cost centers based on some almost arbitrary metric?
The investment team is the “25 YO from Harvard” you’re referencing. They may have less specific sector operating experience, but have often invested in many similar businesses or has experience with something critical to the company strategy (like digital marketing) from a similar vertical. They are on the board and not part of the day to day team running the business. The operating team (eg the CEO you’re referring to) usually is a veteran operator in the same field or one immediately adjacent to it. This is not that dissimilar to large public co’s, where the board is not necessarily specific to the industry but executives often are. Many times the original owners and executive team or operating team stays on after the PE firm invests (part of what the investors are betting on is the strength of company management, they don’t want novices in those seats!), so it’s actually often still the same c suite as before, so yeah the same level of expertise.
In my experience when they acquire a new platform they retain the founder / execs / ops people, who then provide the go-forward industry knowledge as they operate and add on additional acquisitions. Have never seen a PE firm separately hire an industry expert.
Not that I have any specific knowledge to add to this but my husband has worked at companies backed by PE for 20 years and that’s basically been my experience. They get sold to a new firm, get a new board, but most of the operations stay the same, although hopefully growing.
Private equity has no SMEs, their goal is to extract as much money as they can and leave someone else holding the bag.
+1 in my experience.
Sometimes there is someone who literally kills themselves over the changes introduced; when that happens I figure that was the most expert person who felt the most responsible.
My former company was sold from one PE firm to another. They hired in a CEO with similar industry experience but who had never touched that specific area (ie he had engineering management experience but had never once worked at a government contractor). He was terrible; he didn’t understand that the business model for a government contractor is wildly different from that of a commercial firm.
Remember the Murdaugh law firm’s issues with good corporate governance? Now go read the Tom Goldstein indictment.
I am now honestly wondering about how much any of us lawyers (etc.) know what goes on behind the scenes once a firm gets to any meaningful size beyond a solo practitioner. Murdaugh was small and flawed for those reasons. Goldstein’s firm was also set up so that this could happen. BigLaw is too big to tell, but OMG I feel like we all need a forensic accountant to come in and audit things.
Dewey & LeBouef is another one if you want stories of law firm financial shadiness
Oh, I had thought that Dewey’s implosion was just a 2008 victim (too many transactional lawyers not enough paying work). I had a friend there when it died and remember feeling bad that he had two kids, one of whom was special-needs. He as too junior to have been anything but a casualty.
I think that was what started it but there was fraud that ultimately resulted in criminal charges as well.
The indictment is absolutely wild. What a juxtaposition between order in his professional life and chaos in his personal life.
Just looked this up – WOW
Travel question: we are heading to Croatia in summer for a planned small boat 7 day cruise that hits a few different islands, starting and ending in Split. We plan to spend a couple of days in Amsterdam on the way over but are trying to decide what do after. For those that have been should we spend a few extra days in Dubrovnik (only overnighting there on boat) and do day trips around (hike, bike, something active)? Just go to Montenegro or somewhere else for a few days? Thank for the suggestions!
Go to Zagreb! It’s a lovely city and worth a few days. Also if the tour doesn’t allow you to get to Plitvice National Park, do that. Incredibly beautiful place.
Don’t spend too much time in Dubrovnik. The city walls are amazing but when I was there it was way too crowded and felt like Disney world. We really loved Hvar, and I would have liked to see more of the Croatian countryside and smaller areas.
We spent several days in Istria, based in Rovinj, and I would go back in a heart beat. It is absolutely beautiful.
friends that went to Dubrovnik did not love it – overrun with tour groups, Game of Thrones fans, etc. so unless that’s you, maybe don’t spend lots of time there.
From Dubrovnik, take the boat to Lokrum for half a day. I found Dubrovnik to be wonderful and busy but not overrun, but that was about 10 years ago. We stayed in an airbnb outside the city walls which had amazing views and wasn’t so busy but be aware that the stairs immediately outside of the city walls are no joke.
We didn’t love Split, but were really pleasantly surprised by Zagreb. We didn’t get to Istria but I have only heard amazing things.
We went to Croatia about eight years ago. I liked Dubrovnik, but it was very crowded and I’ve heard it’s worse now. I I don’t think anyone mentioned Zadar. We really liked the town and it was less crowded than Split and Dubrovnik. Plitvice National Park is lovely But also so crowded that we were on trails with a continuous stream of people a few feet in front of and behind us. We were warned to start early – as soon as the park opens – but didn’t make it that early.
It’s been a long time since we visited, but we really enjoyed Sarajevo and Mostar. It gave a better sense of the history of the region and the Ottoman Empire.
Plitvice is also completely lovely.
Thank you all so much for your replies! I will spend some time this weekend looking at everything mentioned- much appreciated.
We spent a week and did Dubrovnik, Split and Bol (island of Brac). We had a great time as history and nature enthusiasts. The food was not as good as we’d hoped (often bland or seafood too fishy for our preference), but the wine was fun – it’s the birthplace of Zinfandel, and we tried a few wineries. We also hiked and explored the beaches on Brac and relied on public transportation plus Uber. Highly recommend, and if returning we’d spend even more time on the islands. Side note, it was brutally hot when we were there in July, even for this Atlanta native. Bring sweat wicking and linen, and keep a full water bottle! The ferries out to the island took a little time to research and figure out but were a lot of fun. I think Jadrolina let us sit out on the top deck and watch the scenery with a cold beer.
What’s an appropriate amount to gift to a direct report’s wedding? My husband and I were invited and it’s been a few years since I was on the wedding circuit. SEUS
$100-200, unless your company has rules on cash gifts. In that instance, I’d do two Tiffany champagne glasses or rocks glasses, with a lovely note.
Or a tiffany vase in case they have specific glassware on their registry. I got a vase and I still love it.
Are you attending? In big-city Canada, in public sector, we do minimum $150 pp (so $300), more if I am very close to them or the wedding is very fancy. I think this is typical for my cohort.
We spend $200-$300 depending on relationship (Philly area) – whether you fall in the higher or lower end of that range will depend on how long you’ve worked together, IMHO, and if you make a LOT more than they do, the higher you go. Nothing to do with how much the couple is spending on the event.
oh and since it’s a report I would give this value as a gift off the registry, not as money, which gets weird in the context of work!
I agree with all of this.
If you attend, $200. If you’re not going, $50.
$50? That is what the going rate was when we were law students living on loans…
Agree. $50 isn’t it, and especially so if this is some kind of moderate-to-high earning industry.
I’m grateful that when invited to colleague’s weddings so far all have had an option to donate to a charity in lieu of gifts to the couple. It eliminates the grimey feeling of giving a coworker/direct report a cash gift.
Not everyone is a big law partner. $50 is fine.
That’s fair. But the poster seems able to give $200 so… dropping the gift amount by $150 if you’re not going is strange to me. I give the same amount whether I go or not.
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This is not helpful but will hopefully be funny. When my husband worked at a big firm his practice group had a junior, mid level and a senior partner. The junior guy was making a fraction of the senior guy. Everyone who invite them to their wedding reported that the junior partner gave four figures, the mid level partner gave the standard going rate at the time ($200pp in New York at the time) and the senior partner gave everyone a set of knives they didn’t register for with a note explaining that the knives they DID register for were no good. It’s still funny to me.
LOL, how strange!
OMG this is hilarious! I hope they kept the note with the knives and read it and laugh every time they use them!
Industry specific. I am in west coast mid-size city mid-law and would give $200 whether I was going or not if I were invited. If I was not invited, I would give them the gift of actively supporting the “don’t bug them while they’re on their honeymoon” policy we try to have for all newlyweds at my firm (eg, by affirmatively reminding a client that they can email or call me directly with any questions while Jill is out).
Somewhere around $100-$150 a head.
Can anyone suggest resources for developing “soft skills” at work? Things like how to run a good meeting, how to develop good relationships with colleagues, how to think about further improving my professional reputation? I’m quiet and shy by nature so these skills don’t come naturally to me but a big part of my job is managing projects and interacting with people. I’m not terrible at these things but would like to improve. Books, articles, advice, anything would be helpful!
Practice in real life. Go get meals and coffee with colleagues and friends. You cannot pick up soft skills by reading about them.
100% practice, ideally in a low stakes environment. I joined a large ski club and literally talk to everyone. It’s like my mission to talk to strangers, despite being introverted. At the parties/socials, I literally set myself a goal of talking to a certain number of new people and getting them to like me/have a positive interaction.
I know it sounds sociopathic, but honestly it is such good interpersonal exercise, plus now I’m really popular in ski club!
Diary of a CEO interview with Vanessa Van Edwards:
https://youtu.be/VHUrdELKjDw?si=AAVxs7ikG2Y-zWMj
She talks a lot about warmth + competence and how to balance both with non-verbal and verbal cues.
I agree that practice is important but sometimes you need to know what you are practicing! I like the LeaderLab Book for tactical steps in how to effectively manage teams/run projects (has a lot of good practices that can provide structure for building out these relationships over time). I also really like The 15 Commitments of Conscious Leadership for guiding principles in how to interact with others at work, as well as Radical Candor.
The HBR podcast women at work is good. I agree that you really just have to practice this in person, including in low pressure situations – like the ski club another commenter mentioned. For practical things The Management Center has a lot of good articles and templates.
Find Grace mcgarrick on TikTok or insta. She is a gen z coach and doing amazing work.
Observe. Who in your field does this well? Watch them during a meeting and take actual notes.
There is a book on being an introvert in business that I found helpful.
I got all my practice at church. My church operates almost 100% on lay clergy, so it’s a very forgiving audience and also doesn’t feel particularly high-stakes. I teach the Sunday School class once a month. Obviously not a practical answer for most people, but the concept of “get involved in a group where you have opportunities to practice soft skills” is the more generalizable answer here. Possible groups include Toastmasters, a book club, a crafting club…
Buy a used copy of “Managerial Communication” by Mary Munter.
I also like The Making of a Manager by Julie Zhuo, So Good they Can’t Ignore You by Cal Newport and HBR’s Managing Yourself.
Last, look up podcasts on the skills you want–tons will emerge.
Repost from yesterday in hopes of a few more responses: I’m going to be launching my own consulting firm in 2025 — I have a few clients now and am as busy as I want to be, but want to figure out a way to make this work sustainable. All of my current clients are orgs that have approached me (I am on a work sabbatical after leaving a toxic job this summer) and that’s definitely a different vibe than “Here I am! Hire me!”
I’m going away to a friend’s cabin at the end of this month for two nights, with the goal of doing some reflecting and goal-setting around this professional work. Does anyone have any resources or suggestions, prompts, etc. that I should use/leverage/consider in advance as I go on this self-imposed retreat?
What does “make this work sustainable” mean. Do you mean “I want to figure out how to continue to keep getting clients so I have project to work on when I finish my current batch?” Or are you talking about work/life balance?
By sustainable do you mean:
1. stay around this level of busy as the specific clients you work with wax and wane – aka long term business development so you have a variety of incoming work over the year
2. you’d actually prefer to be LESS busy and how to turn down projects without losing the work stream from a client entirely, or
3. price your work correctly to sustain your livelihood and savings goals
Thank you, great questions. I want to:
– Continue to bring in clients / formulate a business development plan
– Formally launch / create a one-woman firm — what questions do I need to answer in order to establish my business?
I assume you’re planning to set up a company for liability reasons? Literally forming an LLC is pretty straightforward, but you might want to talk to a lawyer to make sure you’re setting yourself up correctly for your tax treatment, professional insurance coverage, etc.
Agree with this. Set up the LLC and get professional liability insurance as first order of business.
For me, in terms of marketing plans, I didn’t do anything formal other than let friends/former colleagues know what I was doing. Keeping in touch helps a lot. I organically like these people anyway, and am a social person, so just touching base regularly has led to new clients oand k for me. But I’m at capacity now and turning away work, which is a nice problem to have.
How closely do you follow the expiration date on your makeup? Since working from home full-time (at a company that was fully remote before the need, so no RTO policy in the future), I’m not going through my makeup at any kind of rate that matches the expiration periods, so when those dates come up, it feels wasteful to replace it. The only ones I go through at any kind of rate that matches is my sunscreen and my mascara.
Not at all. Eek.
I don’t look at them at all. Oopsie.
not at all – I go by texture and smell.
I don’t pay attention to the expiration date at all.
I write the date I open stuff (MM/YY) in sharpie for most skin care and foundation. Throw out around the expiration date plus three to six months. By that point, if it hasn’t been used up, I’ve conceded it’s a product I don’t really like, so it doesn’t need to keep consuming counter space. Pressed powders (blush, eyeshadow) tend to stick around for a couple years.
I’m more careful about expirations dates on jar-packages skincare where I’m sticking my finger into it, but I never worry about stuff in a tube or pump bottle.
I’ve never noticed an expiration date but I wear makeup daily. I’ve tossed things that I wear less often when they seem to have turned though. Like cracking eyeshadow or gpoppy mascara.
Mostly for mascara. When season changes I usually re-buy(Maybelline sky-high, shiny pink tube). I use a BB cream in an airtight pump, which I think extends its life somewhat.
I’ve never looked at an expiration date. I throw out liquid and cream products when they look goopy or weird. I toss oil stained powders if scratching off the top layer doesn’t reveal anything fresher underneath. But I regularly use a ten year old eyeshadow palette that’s in perfect condition. Regularly cleaning your makeup brushes is more important than the expiration date of dry products.
I ignore the dates, but toss if there is any texture change or separation. But I live in a relatively low humidity place where my products aren’t subjected to a lot of heat, and I use clean make up brushes to apply products, not my fingers.
I buy a new tube of mascara every month or so because my eyes seem to be uniquely sensitive to old mascara. Otherwise, I just get new products if my skin is reacting, I’ve run out of the product, or the product looks gross.
Heh. Makeup has expiration dates?
I don’t look at the date, but at the time I opened the product.
I am the most careful with liquid eye makeup. Mascara, liquid liner, cream liner and liquid shadow get tossed.
Lipsticks, balms and similar creamy and fatty products get rancid, and rancid lipstick is just nasty anyway, so tossed.
Sunscreen I date with a sharpie, and toss within a year if not used up by then.
Face creams for reguar use is used up quite quickly – if I don’t use them quickly, they were not a good fit anyway. I do keep some full face foundations that I use very rarely, but I consider those dress-up makeup for very few occasions. If they split, curdle or go rancid, of course they will go.
If I have bought something that is unopened but past the date, I might open it, or toss unopened depending on whether I expect it to go rancid.
Dry powders last for years. Non-creamy pencils, too. And nail polish.
Never looked at one.
If you are going no contact (or text-only contact) with a sibling because of Reasons, I am planning to just do that. No announcement. No explanation. Just the phone will go to voicemail and if you text me a civil question, I will text you back. And if you text me an observation (it’s showing), I may like it. But if you get all rant-y in a voice mail or text, I will not respond at all.
I got some advice (unsolicited) when I mentioned this to “try to talk it out,” which I think is a fool’s errand. Never done this before and there isn’t a manual.
Do you need hard and fast rules? I guess you feel you do, or you wouldn’t be asking, but consider whether you could just say, I have a general policy of not responding to anything they send me, unless I want to, and what they said was kind?
who are you telling about going no-contact? Friends? Other family? If the issue is people arguing with you not to, then just don’t tell anyone, respond as you’ve decided to, and carry on.
Basic tips – It took me a long time to realize that I am setting my boundaries on how and WHEN I engage with the family member, and cannot change how they engage with me. With that in mind, muting texts messages does wonders so I only look at them when I am in the mental space to deal with messages. If email is an issue, create a rule and send emails to a folder. I just let calls ring, because sending it directly to voice mail makes it obvious. Also, if you know who the family member is likely to reach out to convinced that something is wrong because you are not engaging with them, let that person know you need some “space” from your family member. Phrasing wise, third-parties react so much better to “needing some space,” rather than saying you are going no-contact. Don’t know how to explain it, but remember generations before us managed to do this without saying it was “no contact” or “low contact.”
My sibling and I are no/low contact. If someone told me to try to talk it out, I think I’d answer that there’s nothing to talk out. That is to say, if my sibling were a person you could talk things out with, we wouldn’t be in the no/low contact situation we’re in.
Same. She sends me joke memes but we don’t have serious conversations about anything because she can turn anything into drama/personal victimhood.
Same. My brother texts me “Merry Christmas” and I say “Merry Christmas” back. He texted to make sure I was okay in the fire and I said “Fine, thanks for thinking of me.” And almost all the rest of it (very rare texts or Facebook comments from him) gets ignored.
That isn’t “no contact.” If you’re looking for a manual on managing such relationships perhaps read about the “gray rock” technique as a way to disengage.
I read “Disentangling from Emotionally Immature People” at a recommendation from the comments here. It didn’t help me directly right away, but it gave me some much needed context do my own thinking and processing. Ultimately, what I came to was that even setting explicit boundaries has transactional costs that may not be worth it. (Let alone trying to talk things out.) So I’ve started to give myself permission to respond or not on my own terms, rather than the terms that I’d been socialized into. And it allowed me to use the space and saved energy to do a bunch of creative work I somehow never used to get around to before…
I would love some advice from those with older kids, particularly those who are autistic or struggle with making friends. The basic question is how do I tell a casual friend that my child doesn’t want to hang out with her child?
My 12 year old son is in the same class this year as a girl, let’s call her Jane, who he was friends with in daycare and when he was in preschool. My husband and I were friendly with the family; they live in our neighborhood and are lovely people. We had them over a few times and hung out at the playground when the kids were much younger. Jane went to a different preschool, and transferred to a different elementary school shortly after being diagnosed with autism in Kindergarten, so we kind of drifted apart but are still friendly when we run into them around the neighborhood. My son doesn’t really remember hanging out with her. (Jane is also trans and was identified as male when they were still playing together; I think that is only relevant because at his current age my son has mostly male friends). They started attending the same middle school in 6th grade and are now in 7th.
Yesterday, Jane’s mom texted me out of the blue saying she had realized my son and Jane are in the same class and wanted to know if my son would like to hang out with Jane. I asked him and he said, I don’t think so. I asked if he would like if we got both families together and he said I’d rather not. I am not surprised, as I have heard him make comments about Jane being annoying before. She can be a little disruptive in class–nothing major but she makes little noises and things. They are definitely not friends. He’s a easygoing and flexible kid, but I feel like he has the right to choose his own friends at this age. On the other hand, I’m concerned that Jane’s mom is doing this out of desperation; middle school is a rough time for everyone and I imagine especially so for kids who struggle socially. I admit I am making a lot of assumptions here. I did ask my son if Jane has other friends and he wasn’t sure (he said he hadn’t been paying attention to that).
So now I have to figure out how to respond. I think I might call her so we can have a more nuanced conversation, but I feel like I have to deliver the message that my son doesn’t want to hang out. How would you handle this? Am I making it a bigger deal than it is?
I would have DIED if my mother was trying to set up play dates for me in middle school. My sympathies to you having to deal with this. I agree with calling. Maybe start by just catching up and then say something like “oh about your text, I think the kids have gotten into different things lately, but thanks for asking”?
This. And maybe set up a night out with Jane’s parents without the kids if you like them as friends.
Agreed and this is so connected to yesterday’s post about the college daughter being unable to get through her day without her mom’s detailed involvement.
Moms: you really need to do less. You’re actually harming your kids so you can feel better about yourself. It’s gross.
OP: just say “oh I no longer arrange playdates for my kids, sorry! Hope you’re all doing well”
“Unfortunately, we’re pretty busy for the next several weeks, but I’ll reach out if George is up for getting together in the future!”
This.
And don’t feel guilty. It’s weird to try and set up a playdate for middle schoolers who don’t know each other.
This would have been a good way to go, but I unfortunately made the mistake of responding before I talked to my son and said I would ask him. So now I can’t plausibly come back and say “ACTUALLY we’re booked solid through the start of high school.” Rookie error.
No no no. The answer is that “This is awkward, but I should have checked with George first. And when I talked to him, it’s not that he doesn’t like Jane, but he’s not wanting to get together to play.” No, thank you, is and answer and you need to use your words. And maybe more words. But the truth, nicely and kindly stated.
You totally can –
“chatted with son but he has a pretty busy scheduled right now and I told him I think it’s better not to add more things on his schedule. “
But that’s suggesting that you are the impediment. That Jane should keep trying. Go with “Jake has some buddies he’ mostly hangs out with now.”
It’s the friend version of “he’s just not that into you.” Otherwise, Jane / Jane’s mom may read into this that there’s a chance.
As the mom of kids that age, you say, “ugh, I really should have talked to George first. He rolled his eyes at me and told me to butt out of his social life. He’s right.” Then, if you think it’s not an awful idea, you can add: “does your family want to come over for a card game next weekend?” Then it’s a family-to-family event, not you setting up playdates for your son. Under no circumstance do you force either of those kids to socialize on their own. If you have to do it, do it right there with him.
This is a great response.
I feel for Jane’s mom, though. I was in a situation similar to yours when my kid was in middle school, and I remember the mom actually weeping when I said my kid didn’t want to hang out with her (several years older, on the spectrum) son. I still feel bad about it even though I think it was the right move for my kid.
I’d be concerned that your son doesn’t want to hang out with her because she is trans. I’d probe harder with your son about how Jane is treated at school, whether she has friends, whether she is bullied. I’d tell him that while you will respect his choice of friends, you would also encourage him to be kind. Sometimes being kind means doing things you don’t want to do (of course, not things that actively harm you, but things that merely inconvenience you are ok sometimes). It’s important to stand up to bullies and stick up for vulnerable people.
I appreciate your concern, but I’m sure this is not the issue. He has other friends that are GNC and doesn’t consider being trans particularly noteworthy as far as I can tell. I wasn’t even 100% sure he knew she was trans as I don’t think he really remembers playing with Jane when she was a boy.
I think you misunderstood the post – it seems like Son was hanging out with Jane more when she WAS identifying as male. (I’m getting the implication the identity may have changed, though?)
He hung out with her when she was male primarily because he was 3 years old and not in charge of his social life. They haven’t spent time together that I can remember since they were about 4 (8+ years ago). I can’t remember exactly Jane transitioned but she was still in elementary school; maybe 2nd or 3rd grade. I have no idea what Jane is interested in now, but my son is exclusively interested in video games. My sense is that most 12 year old girls generally aren’t.
And to add, if anything about Jane makes him uncomfortable, you have to respect that feeling. A lot of kids (of all stripes) can act out weirdly or in a way that other kids don’t emotionally handle well. Doubly so if one kid is on the spectrum. Kids feeling uneasy or unsafe isn’t something I’m willing to do to my kid.
Yes, definitely encourage kindness and standing up to bullies at school. But that is separate from hanging out at home. Jane identifies as a girl now. I’m certainly not setting up 1:1 play dates at age 12 between my son and a girl friend. Jane’s mom is putting the burden of socializing on this boy, without acknowledging there are huge life changes that mean the friendship may no longer be fitting or appropriate. I agree mom needs to focus on helping Jane get involved with extracurriculars that fit her interests and personality at this stage of life
It probably has nothing to do with being trans. As an AFAB autist….amab autists can be a lot: loud, no social grace, lacking in impulse control, (and often an absence of consequences).
Being kind is being polite and fair to everyone, not hanging out with people you don’t like.
Well, if you want to spend at least some time with *your* friend, I think you teach your kid that sometimes you suck it up and politely spend time with somebody you’d rather not, if they’re not hurting you in any way. Like, don’t make it a weekly thing but I think you can do it once or twice.
I don’t think that this is being honest or fair. And no one wants to be befriended out of pity. And to have everyone know it. In middle school, they will.
The answer is for Jane to do activities open to all (Scouts?) and enjoy meeting activity partners and maybe some blossom into friendships. But not this. I write this as a parent of a kid on the spectrum and she is smart enough to feel this in her core (as is the other kid).
I’m not saying force son and Jane to be friends, I’m saying son might have to spend some time around Jane so the parents can hang out. That’s life.
That’s life if you’re 5. Or if these people are coming from out of town. Not if you’re local and 12.
I really agree with Anonymous at 1:10 pm. Jane will get no benefit out of the forced hang out with OP’s family. And the parents can hang out without the kids if they want to – the kids are past the age of needing to be brought along to every adult meet up.
She can meet her friend for coffee or dinner on her own? They are 12 and don’t have to be dragged along.
This may be true if the parents are actually friends, but that doesn’t seem to be the case here.
For example, I get together with a group of friends about once a month and we all bring our kids. The kids are young now, so are all friends in the way that little kids are friends with whoever they are around. In 10 years, they might not be friends anymore but I’ll tell my kids they have to suck it up and be nice when we see them (and maybe see them less often, but still some). But I wouldn’t have the same reaction and force them to suck it up with a new family friend
So I am Jane’s mom here. I have a neurotypical kid also, and I don’t ask for playdates for them but because they don’t drive and we don’t let them hang out at homes without an adult present (at this point), I do reach out to coordinate. I don’t drive the ship, but I have to help pilot it.
That said, the Jane thing. Jane isn’t everyone’s cup of tea and I get that (and I think that Jane gets that). Jane can also make a lot of kids and their parents very uncomfortable, especially since the ASD can have her kick out some very inappropriate / direct things and doubly-so if it is at all s*x, gender, body, indentity related. It’s a lot.
We have family friends like you. We have known them for a long time (not in our neighborhood though). Over the years, various kids and adults have initiated things. At this point, the adults may be closer than the kids (and there are two older siblings and two younger siblings). I wish that the mom would just say something like “K doesn’t want to hang out with Jane anymore,” which is fine (or that K would tell that directly to Jane). Jane thinks that K got her phone taken away and that’s why K isn’t responding and it’s been long enough that that can’t be the story. This is where with Jane’s autism, someone needs to just tell her. She has been so bullied that she has truly endured worse but if would do her and me a kindness to be direct. [I’d also like it if the mom was direct with me about whether this is a friendship she wants to pursue or keep or let fade, but it’s not a priority item for me to confirm the way it is for a teen.]
Just say the words. You have already told us. Free Jane to move on to the next thing.
+1. Clear is kind.
I’m a parent of a kid on the spectrum and a neurotypical kid. It’s hard, but I promise you our kids have endured a lot worse (and so have we).
Agree with this, I might add something like because kids can be mean, don’t want to be the source of that for Jane and would still love to hang out with you,
Thanks for your perspective, truly. I would be a little surprised if Jane was behind this as Jane and my son haven’t had a playdate in approximately 8 years. So it isn’t like they were close recently. But either way, your message that being direct is actually the helpful thing to do is clear and much appreciated.
I also don’t think it is that weird to to be setting up playdates for kids this age; my son and his friends are kind of lazy about it and seem happy to just talk on the phone and play Roblox together online. A couple of his friends’ mom’s often initiate get-togethers; I just always ask him if he wants to before saying yes.
I agree that it’s not weird when you are the logistics person also. I’ve gotten texts that B needs to take a kid to camp and can the other kid just hang with us (kids are friends but also happy to text from bed all day) for the day. Or see if a friend can come to the pool (often suggesting it to kid first) when my mission is to stop the whining and that goes away with a buddy.
I think I agree with the earlier comments that 12 is kind of old to be setting play dates. Also, I know everyone is different, so this isn’t a universal observation, but I think MOST 12 year old boys would not want to hang out with a girl. So if you have any guilt about the situation, which you might, you might consider that Jane put YOU in a weird situation. Not that that solves your problem of how to communicate a kind no thanks! I don’t think full transparency is the answer here; it may create unnecessary drama, and may trickle into the classroom. If it were me, I would say he’s got a lot going on but I’ll circle back in a few weeks. Or (bad, I KNOW) I may not respond at all, which I am guilty of for many other texts I get as well.
What?? This response is whack. Jane, the 12-year old child, put OP in a weird position because Jane is trans? Yikes.
Oh, woah, no. I mixed the kid and parent up. the mom put her in a weird position. chill. I said and meant nothing about her being trans.
“It’s so good to hear from you! Kid is busy with xyz and has a lot on his plate. He’s said he’s not able to hang out with Jane. I’m sorry.
How is Jane doing?”
It’s not your job or your son’s job to fix something that’s not your problem (if there even is a problem). You can lend a ear and empathize. That’s where I would set my boundary.
I have been on the receiving end of that message. It stung, but it definitely got the message across, loud and clear. I know my kid is not for everyone. Luckily, with more time, he has found more people who like and appreciate him.
And don’t you want him to spend time with people who like him, not people who don’t?
Agreed. Don’t make your kid hang out with someone he doesn’t want to be friends with just for the sake of being nice. Jane will be able to tell.
I was a flexible and easygoing kid who was pushed into “being friends” with a girl I had been friends with in first and second grade.
Let’s just say there were damn good reasons why I was avoiding her, and my parents owed it to me to stop pushing me to “be nice” and “just include her.”
My daughter was the flexible and complaint “nice girl” who was assigned by the teachers to be “friends” with two different class bullies, one of whom had some sort of severe personality disorder and the other of whom was just not a nice person, throughout elementary school. It was awful. I didn’t find out about all of it until she was in middle school, and she still resents those teachers and kids now that she’s in college.
Not all neurodivergent kids are a-holes, and the ones who aren’t will find friends eventually. The ones who are don’t deserve friends, just like neurotypical a-holes don’t deserve friends.
I was the compliant nice girl (undiagnosed ASD, twice exceptional top of the class). I had no idea why I was being punished and forced to hang out with the worst kids. So much to unpack in therapy about people pleasing as an adult
if i was Jane’s mom, i feel like i would have reached out in a different way, like oh its been a while since we all hung out, would your family like to come over for a BBQ or whatever, bc as a kid I definitely had to go to family friends homes with kids who weren’t really my friends, but that is not what this mom asked. She asked specifically for like a ‘play date’ with your kid. I like the script from ‘Tomatoes.’ If you like the mom and want to hang out, ask her to meet for coffee or something. You can be friends with someone’s parents without your kids being friends
My mom’s friends would come over with their kids and we’d play together as very small kids but as tweens / teens, we didn’t have a lot in common. But it was forcing us to interact in a space that showed me that you can be a good guest / host without being besties. It’s a life skill that’s good to learn. Eventually, kids won’t need to be toted along and will just fade a bit. It’s OK as a kid to have acquaintances. Oddly, we reconnected as adults, which was really helpful as we’ve started to lose parents. Growing up, I didn’t have local family, so these are the people who knew me and my parents for most of my youth, as opposed to relatives I saw maybe once a year.
They are past the age of needing to be toted along. We live a 15 minute walk apart.
This is the path I take as a parent. We host a couple of get togethers at our home every year and mostly invite the same families. One of the families had a kid on the spectrum who is the same age and gender as my kid. They have known each other since they were in diapers but now as tweens, the other kid can be A Lot. My kid doesn’t want to do one on one play dates with her (and I don’t push it) but always includes her when they come over as a family and they have a nice time. Same thing when we go to their house.
I think you’re getting too involved. “Oh thanks but he’s so busy already!”
But don’t say busy. He’s not too busy. Busy sounds like it might resolve soon. He’s just that into the friendship. “George says thanks for the offer but he doesn’t really want to hang out.” No qualifiers. Nice, but firm.
What I’d do is invite the family over for dinner so everyone – adults and kids – can hang out. I have kids around this age and we’ve definitely had families over where their kid isn’t my kid’s favorite, but to me, it’s like having to hang out with your grandparents during the holidays or visiting random cousins on a vacation. It’s an obligation that I’m going to require as your parent. Living in community means having to spend some leisure time with others even if they aren’t your first choice.
That said, I wouldn’t attempt to make the kids hang out other times or try and force them to be friends.
Hello! I am very qualified to answer this. Short answer: teach your son to be a kind human, which does not require extensive hanging out with his mom’s friend’s kid and DEFINATELY not 1:1. Treat any interaction like a family event- he should treat your friend’s kids as he would treat a cousin he doesnt know/like well.
I would plan some kind of very casual family get-together where Jane would be welcome- ideally with another family or two. Make it clear to your son that he has to be polite as a host and define those duties and give him a wide berth (so, say hello, ask polite questions during a meal, but you can downstairs and watch a football game as long as you are OK with others joining you). Also let your son know he’s free to hang with the adults as they are his guests too.
Qualifications: I have two girls 8 and 11. My neighbor has a daughter (7) and a son (10). During COVID, our kids were in PK and K (and then PK/K/1) and families bubbled up out of necessity and the kids spent a lot of time together. My husband and I get along really well with our adult neighbors but our kids are just not friends.. Their daughter is…a lot…and my girls don’t like to play with her. Their son has some anger management issues and we also have a tween boy/girl dynamic. Our kids go to different elem schools, but will meet up in middle school next year when my oldest is in 7th and their son is in 6th. We work hard to find some basic common ground so we can socialize. For example, we’ll play scrabble as a group (we make teams that work- usually adult + kid, boys v girls, whatever), play cards, watch a big sports game, that sort of thing. Sometimes their son will go tinker in the garage with his dad and my husband. Occasionally our daughter will play videogames with their son. In the summer, we have outside meals and get the kids (and often adults) playing soccer, volleyball, whiffle ball, that sort of thing.
I think your situation is quite different than OP’s though because it sounds like the kids, especially the tweens, are mutually uninterested in each other. That’s much less awkward than the situation where one kid wants to be friends and the other kid isn’t into it.
The difference here is that you and your husband are friends with the child’s parents. OP is no longer friends with the mother, just on friendly terms. There is no reason to rekindle a whole-family relationship.
Oh, no way. Parents should not be arranging play dates in seventh grade, and no child of any age should be forced to interact with someone he doesn’t like. You could soften the blow by saying, “Sorry, no, he’s into his own things now.” Don’t say “he arranges his own social calendar” because that will be taken as an opening for the girl to try inviting him herself.
Besides dinner, what would you do on a free weeknight in NYC if you’ve already seen the Broadway shows you’re interested in? I’ll be traveling for work and my aunt is meeting me in the city. We plan to get pizza and I wanted to do something else, but I’m not sure what. Are museums open in the evenings? My hotel is in the Times Square area.
What kind of music does your aunt like? There are tons of small events.
Okay I know you’ve seen the shows you’re interested in, but there are a lot of limited run/new shows this season that are wonderful. I particularly recommend Eureka Day, especially if you are a veteran of progressive school/PTA politics – it is hilarious.
That said, many museums are open late one night a week. You could also go to a jazz club–check Birdland or Jazz at Lincoln Center–or cabaret performance – check out 54 Below. Or, you know, the ballet, opera, orchestra…
+1 there’s no way you’ve seen all the good shows. There’s off Broadway too…
See Sleep No More or Life & Trust or Speakeasy Magic (not Broadway, but fun immersive theatre things).
+1 for Speakeasy Magick. It was such a fun night and worth the cost. It feels different than going to see a “show”.
Sleep No More closed recently
Ha, they had been claiming to close for like 3 years so I didn’t realize it finally happened!
The Museum of Broadway (right off Times Square) is open until 6:30 on Thurs and Fri and it’s really great. Maybe do that before pizza?
The Met is open late certain nights.
I like to pick a neighborhood and walk around–the West Village is cute, and you can pop into a bar or two or grab dessert. I realize it’s really cold, and if that’s the case, then I’d pick a cocktail bar or wine bar or dessert place, and make it a destination.
I am looking for resources in making a decision about whether to rent or buy in NYC. I’m playing with the rent v buy calculator on NYTimes and looking for other resources and anecdotes too. I think the kicker is we have one child now and want one or two more in the next 5 years. Anecdotally should we just wait until we know our family is complete to buy? We have to move anyways when we have another baby, which we hope will be in the next 2 years. It’s not crucial that we move this year, but our rent is high and we like but don’t love our apartment.
No personal experience since I’m childfree. But my BFF was in your situation and ‘held off’ because she wanted another kid, they decided they actually were happy with one and ended up pretty far behind in the housing market and regretted holding off on buying.
I would start looking now, and not wait until your family is complete to buy. But I would also only look for apartments/homes that can accommodate 4 family members.
+1
the questions I’d be asking are whether you’re planning to leave the city when your current kid starts school, and if you can afford a place now that has room for one more kid.
I think this is a discussion to have with an accountant, truly. I know that sounds insane, but…raising kids in NYC, if you don’t plan to send them to public school, is a very pricy proposition. Activities cost a fortune, preschool costs a fortune, camps cost a fortune. You need to look quite a bit ahead, and figure out whether you have the budget to have an apartment where you can have enough space for one kid to be napping, one to be playing. Will your kids double up bedrooms. Do you have the cash flow to spend 60K post-tax on preschool plus daycare or that much for tuition? My friends that wanted to raise kids in the City really had to recalculate this vision when they ran numbers.
https://nymag.com/urban/guides/family/living/features/feature_cityvsuburb.htm
This NYMag guide is helpful.
Sorry to be a total downer, but secondary infertility sufferer, here. What if you can’t have a second child? What if it takes a really, really long time?
We waited for so long to do things in the hopes of #2 coming along. She did, thankfully, but it took 5.5 years. I wish we had just got along with life in so many ways.
I’d buy a place that has minimum three bedrooms so that if you grow to be a family of 5 two kids can bunk up.