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Suit of the Week: Reiss

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193 Comments

  1. An update if anyone happens to be interested – I was the one who posted last week on my mother ignoring a text message about making plans for a walk. Neither of us followed up, so we did not meet for a walk. I saw her over the weekend at a family event; she was cold but not rude. I called her yesterday afternoon when I had some free time. I made small talk and got a lot of one-word answers. So I used a technique my counselor has recommended – I said, “It seems like you’re upset. Is that about me?” That didn’t go well. I was told I obviously have no interest in a relationship with her because I wasn’t available for dinner when she originally suggested it, that I should have taken her other plans into account when offering to meet for a walk (not sure how I could have possibly known about her other plans for the evening), that I should have persisted when she didn’t answer my text message, that she cannot understand what she could have done to deserve such poor treatment for me, that I’m a liar, and a litany of other offensive things. Anyway…I’ll be taking a break from her for a while. Thanks to all who listened and chimed in last week with advice. My heart hurts.

    1. I always post this for these kind of difficult parent tantrum situations: search for the “Alice” post on Captain Awkward. Really great explanation of people like this. Also, stay strong. Her behavior is in no way how a reasonable person would react.

      1. Thank you! I’m the OP. I’ve had my husband read the Alice post in an effort to give him some understanding of my reality – it is (thankfully) completely foreign to him. And I really appreciate the encouragement – I get so wrapped up in this stuff that sometimes I’m not sure if she’s unreasonable or me.

        1. I am your husband in my marriage. My MIL is an Alice. If he is comfortable with it, it might help to give your husband the freedom to call out behavior that looks unreasonable to him (without him having to fear you getting annoyed at him if that is a fear). It might help you see beyond the topsy turvy reality you grew up in.

          2. I meant call it out to you. Because what I’ve learned is exactly what you said…you live in a different reality than someone who didn’t have parents like this.

        2. Hug. Seriously, hug.

          My mother publicly humiliated me today. I just keep remembering that it is not an appropriate way to treat any adult.

    2. I have no patience for 1) people telling me I’m required to chased after them in order to have a relationship with them 2) people being angry with me for failing to read their minds. That’s a whole lot of nope.

      I’m sorry she’s being this way.

      1. Yep, I feel you. I hate it when people say one thing with words, but another thing with their tone, body language, phrasing, etc. and expect me to piece it all together to figure out how they really feel, and solve the problem bothering them, before they explode in anger or hurt feelings. It’s an insane puzzle game I have no interest in playing.

    3. I didn’t realize my SIL read this s i t e! Your mom/my MIL is a real peach, and it hurts.

      Kidding aside, solidarity. This is not a rational, logical person, and that’s ok–we’re not all built the same for various reasons–but you don’t owe her a cowtow or deserve to be treated like this. Hugs.

    4. I feel your pain pretty keenly – as someone who’s tried all the therapy-speak rational talk that you’re supposed to try in these kinds of situations, I’ve finally come to the conclusion that my mother is simply not rational, and I cannot use rational responses with her. My imperfect but workable solution has been to simply ignore tantrums like this one. Don’t ask her what’s wrong, don’t say you’ve noticed she’s upset, don’t acknowledge it at all. Like a young child, she will move on when she sees that she’s not getting the attention she wanted from acting out. Unlike a young child, you cannot use the opportunity to teach her to handle her emotions or to learn how to act like a grown up.

      My mom is an incredibly difficult person and I spent my childhood being sensitive to her moods and placating her. As an adult, I’ve come to terms with the fact that we just don’t have a relationship as friends. She’s my mom, I love her, she loves me, and we’ll always have a relationship but it’s just not what I pictured or wanted, because she isn’t capable of a relationship like that. People can change but you can’t change them. Take some time to grieve the relationship you wanted, disengage with the mind games, and work on a different kind of relationship. I talk to my mom regularly, but I try to keep the conversation on surface-level things, and I turn to my friends who are healthy and supportive for real support. Hugs to you – I know how difficult this.

    5. I was thinking of you today actually as I’m dealing with a(nother) high stress situation with my own mom. Hugs and solidarity. I agree with the other posters who suggest having your husband call out behavior to you. I sometimes run over my responses with my husband to ask if it’s reasonable that I was hurt by something and it really helps to have him reinforce that’s it’s okay to feel upset by something that was, well, upsetting.

  2. I’m going to Albuquerque next week for a quick work trip and have never been before. I have a late afternoon/evening free and 2-3 hours in a morning free. I’m thinking I want to do 2 things: go see the sunset from the Sandias and go to Petroglyph National Monument. Two questions related to this: for the Sandias, should I drive up the scenic highway to the crest, or take the tram? Which area has better views for sunset? And for Petroglyph, I think I’ll only have time for 1 trail–which is the best (and fine to hike solo on, though it’ll be a weekend morning and I assume therefore plenty of people around)? Thanks!

    1. Ooooh I really enjoyed Albuquerque! For the Sandias, I took the tram. Absolutely stunning. Not sure if the drive would be better. The restaurant at the top was not great but good enough for the view! I found the petroglyphs interesting for about 30 minutes…maybe others will disagree. I’d recommend looking into the tent rocks instead.

    2. I second the above suggestions. The tram is awesome, and tent rocks is a worthwhile trip as well.

      1. Tent Rocks looks like it’s a little too far of a drive for my time frame, unfortunately.

    3. My favorite trail is Rinconada Canyon. It is a little more than 2 miles and there are lots of petroglyphs. Go early since Albuquerque is hot by mid-morning and take lots of water. I’m not sure where you are from, but be cautious if you are not used to our altitude. I have always felt safe hiking in the early morning (I get there around 7 a.m. on any of the petroglyph trails.) I would be more careful about staying out late at night, especially downtown. Let me know if you have any other questions, as I live in ABQ and grew up here.

  3. Has anyone signed up for the “5 Meals in 1 hour” meal prep plan? It’s all over FB and I love to watch the videos. But it costs a little bit of money to sign up and I wonder if it’s worth it? TIA!!

  4. ooooh love this suit!! My all time favorite is my Of Mercer one because it is super easy to move in and soooo comfy – but maybe I need to invest in this Reis one! Does anyone have any recs for comfy suits?

  5. Does anyone have any tricks for making big life decisions? A pro con list seems a little too surface level for big things like: switching careers, moving to a new State, etc.

    1. You mean tricks for making big life decisions and then not regretting the decision you’ve made? The only thing I’ve figured out is the pro/con – of EVERYTHING. And then all the other things that aren’t a pro/con, but just are. And then decide what you want your life to look at (generally) and then go that particular direction.

      I don’t understand the problem with a pro/con list – that’s just verbalizing/writing down all the thoughts/feeling floating around in your brain and then organizing them. Are you looking for something more systematic?

      1. I think there are just too many intangibles for huge life-altering decisions. I use pro-con all the time for things like where we should go on vacation.

        1. I think you’re limiting yourself by dismissing pro/con lists.

          But ultimately, you’re never going to be able to go back in time and see what the counterfactual would be like, so there’s a limit to the amount of deep research you can do.

        2. Like what kind of intangibles? If it’s something that’s going to affect your decision, you should be able to verbalize it at least, even if you can’t quantify it. And then you try on the decisions (as stated below) based on the pro/con list to see how the intangibles feel, right?

          And then you go on faith. Because you make the best decision you can with the information at hand, which is always going to be imperfect.

      1. I love this! Also, I tell myself I have to choose Option X. Then I let that sit for a few hours/days. How do I feel? Then I do the same with Option Y. I often learn something about my true feelings when I do that.

        1. I do this too, and I have found it super helpful. I’ve done this for other life decisions as an adult, but the first time I did it was for choosing what college to go to. I was choosing between (a) dream school with no financial aid and (b) state school with a full ride. (Simplified for the sake of this example.) I thought I was determined to go to my dream school, but after going around thinking I was going there for a day, I realized I was way more stressed out about the finances and logistics of it than I realized. The day that I went around thinking I was going to my state school, I surprisingly felt perfectly calm.

    3. I like the idea of “trying on” a decision. Pretend you’ve decided to do X and then spend a few days in that headspace, but without actually taking action. You can talk about it, plan it, etc. See how it feels. Repeat as necessary for other options.

    4. Two thoughts:

      If you’re doing a pro/con, that’s OK, but consider add weights to aspects. Is nightlife super important in your new city or only mildly important? Then if nightlife is on your pro or con side you can know to weight it more or less. I think there are worksheets like this.

      Consider a coin flip. Say Heads is Move and Tails is Stay. Flip a coin. How do you feel about that outcome? Write down some of those feelings. It’s sort of like Monday’s suggestion of “trying on” a decision.

    5. Especially interested as it applies to kids. There have been so many threads on this and I have read them all and they haven’t really helped me. I mean they are helpful, but nothing in them has helped me make the decision. Husband feels the same way. We both really like our lives, don’t feel especially strongly about having a family, but do think we might miss the fun/rewarding aspects of raising kids, and both are a little terrified of how much life might change because of a kid. We love our families and get that if we don’t have kids our future holidays will not look like current holidays. We’ve been together over a decade, married for 4 years. We are financially stable. I’m 35, husband is 38 so if we are going to have them, we should start trying.

      1. Yes this is that kind of dilemma where a pro con list seems inadequate. FWIW, I have two kids and admit in the really hard early years I had moments of regret. Now that they are older and easier and more personality filled, I am so grateful for them and much more overwhelmed with that feeling of love that I never quite mustered in the baby stage.

      2. Look up the Dear Sugar Ghost Ship column. It will probably help you address that.

      3. For this, I often try to figure out which decision I would regret more, or which decision requires more (emotional, here) investment.

    6. First, I’d get rid of the word “tricks” for these kinds of decisions. It seems to imply there are handy little tricks or hacks for doing this. Sure, there are tools and methods that can help, but the reason these decisions are hard is because they ARE. You can’t see your way ahead into the future to know how they turn out. You can’t guarantee that you’ll get it “right,” because sometimes life intervenes.

      The best thing to learn is that you can recover from a decision that turns out poorly. That relieves some of the pressure.

    7. Hmmm. I’m much more of an intuitive decisionmaker about major life things. I think the best way to make good decisions for yourself is to really get to know yourself. That means figuring out what you want your life to look like & really figuring that out (get all the voices out of your head that are pleasing other people & figure out what you want). Once you have your own personal north star, decisions aren’t that hard to make.

  6. I applied for a job posted to a company’s website through one of those taleo job application portals. Is there any way to follow up with their HR about status (after a reasonable amount of time of course)? Or should I not even bother? I’m not really clear on how following up to signal my continued interest is supposed to work with an online application like this.

    1. If they didn’t give contact info in the job posting, then you don’t follow up. You applied – that’s your indication of interest. If they want to know more, they’ll get a hold of you.

    2. No, do not do this. Rarely will the person you reach have anything to do with the position itself, and they’ll have to figure out which recruiter is in charge of the position and chase them down to find out if you’re being considered for the role, and in bigger companies, that’s not at all what the HR coordinators are there to do (they mainly deal with the paperwork and benefits of people who already work there), you’d have to reach the right person on the Talent Acquisition team, or the appropriate Human Resources Business Partner for the team you applied to, to even hope for an answer about your application, but even then, bugging them isn’t going to nudge you along the path to employment.

      No one is going to look at a perfectly good application and think “wow, she’s exactly what we want, but we haven’t heard from her since she submitted her resume so she must not really be interested . . . next!” If you were able to communicate that you have the desired skills and background for the job, they will most likely contact you without you having to do anything else.

      1. This. I would add that if you have a contact at the company, I would get in touch with that person & see if they can get you to the hiring manager’s attention and/or out of the slush pile. Work your network. If you come up dry, then completely agree with Linda.

    3. I agree with the above comments that reaching out to HR isn’t the way to go, but disagree that you should just drop it. Use LinkedIn to figure out who works in the department/group that you want to be hired into, and find a connection. Maybe your b-school classmate used to work with someone in the group, or your sister in law went to college with someone who works in another department but knows people in your target department, etc. Ask if they’d mind introducing you for an informational call to learn more about the position–if you get to this step, just ask genuine questions about the company, department, and role. Do not use the call to ask about your app status or if they can move your resume past the HR screen (IME they always offer to resubmit you internally, but don’t assume or ask for it).

  7. I have a job offer with the US Attorney’s office in my district, civil division. I am currently a senior biglaw litigation associate. I am obviously interested in the job, and am particularly interested to have a more independent case load/trial practice. I am also interested in public service, but have just not ever had the opportunity before.

    I have a few concerns with taking the job. One is the salary cut, which I have to figure out with my family. The other is that I feel like I am doing this backwards – it seems like people go to a USAO as a young lawyer and then …. go do something else. I am in my early 40s, and I don’t really see what the career path for me would be. I am not sure what my questions is aside from I would appreciate thoughts on this. What makes this harder is that I feel like I have a strong chance for partnership at my firm, and it is not a bad place to work.

    1. This would be a lifestyle change in that most USAOs are 9-5, leave work at the office, don’t work on weekends (except if you have a trial coming up which is not super frequent), as compared to your biglaw litigation lifestyle of billables, longer hours, available by phone all the time, etc. Is that important to you? You don’t mention it in your post, so maybe that’s not a big deal. You say your firm is not a bad place to work, so the lifestyle change of “easier” hours may not be worth the salary tradeoff.

      I’m not sure either what your next step would be if you left the USAO. You’ve already done biglaw– would you want to go back to it? If so, I’m not sure I’d leave to begin with. Most people who go to the USAO mid-career will retire there. Do you not want to do that? Why or why not?

      1. Thanks this is helpful.

        “You say your firm is not a bad place to work, so the lifestyle change of “easier” hours may not be worth the salary tradeoff.” – This one is hard. I would like to work less so I have more time with my family, and I would like to do work that is more meaningful. But yeah, the salary is hard to leave – if the environment was worse, this would be an easier choice to make. I generally don’t work weekends, and only work about one evening a week, and my co-workers are nice and respectful. A big motivation for me leaving is that I don’t get as much responsibility as I want, and that is really a function of how BigLaw works. I think I am driven to leave more by that than the hours, but less hours would be excellent. Sorry for the long answer.

        “Most people who go to the USAO mid-career will retire there.” Yeah, this would be great – at least I think so with my limited knowledge. I have never worked in government, but I think I would like it. I really enjoy practicing law and litigation, and would like to be able to just do that for my sole “client” and not worry about business development.

        1. Don’t forget to weigh the benefits, which I suspect would be substantial. If you could retire with a federal pension and possibly healthcare (!!!!), it could be worth a million or 2 in savings.

      2. The hours really vary by district. The attorneys I know at USAOs in big-cities often work biglaw hours at a fraction of the pay. I would really push to get a real sense of the hours before accepting if you are looking for a life style change.

        1. This. I know a former USAO from my area who always worked insane hours (Partly because the job required it somewhat, partly because I think she really, really liked the work) after initially spending a few years in a Big Law firm in the same city. She left to become a partner at a white-shoe firm in the city, so I think it was worthwhile from a financial perspective.

          If you’re looking for a lifestyle change, it may not be quite what you are looking for. But it can work out well after a few years.

        2. I am late to this thread, but I have heard this as well from friends on the west coast. One of my law school classmates stayed at her AUSA job for less than a year and then went back to her BigLaw firm for this reason.

          Not sure how representative that is of all AUSA jobs though.

      1. My response to your response is also in mod!

        I would also love not having billable hours. I seem to get things done faster than my colleagues, and I feel like that is punished by the billable hour model. I am constantly stressed about making my hours and usually make it by the skin of my teeth. I have missed one year and it was disappointing.

    3. I guess it depends on where you are but often times an AUSA job can be a great springboard to something else whether that’s a judicial position or a boutique practice or partnership back at your old firm… you may want to explore your options here, but it’s hardly a dead end.

      1. This. I don’t think going to USAO means the end of private practice if you don’t want it to. And depending on what you work on, that could mean a lot of different things. There are few careers that are not ultimately bolstered by moves in and out of public service.

      2. I know several people who moved back into private practice after a stint as an AUSA, including re-entry at a partner level.

        1. +1. The surest route to partner at my previous NYC BigLaw firm is to start as an associate, leave to be an AUSA, and come back later as a partner (preferably once you’re higher up at Main Justice, but an “ordinary” AUSA works too). Depending on seniority sometimes people are counsel for a few years before they’re made partner, but some go straight to partner. In the past few years, more people have made partner this way than going straight up through the ranks without leaving. Most of them were criminal, not civil, but I would think the same applies to civil at most firms.

  8. Question for the chronically late people on here – what is your deal, basically?

    I have a couple of friends who are chronically late. I have been left waiting at a restaurant table for 45 minutes, wandering around a mall for an hour, and late to the star of a movie. The list goes on.

    Last night I waited for my friend at happy hour, which she suggested, until happy hour was over. By the time she got there, I had to leave in 15 minutes to catch my train. This was despite my texting earlier in the day to ask if we were still on, reminding her that i had to leave at x time, and then texts while i was waiting (25 minutes into my wait, “I’m on my way!” Um, no you weren’t, your office is literally across the street and you didn’t arrive for another 20 minutes). And there I was at a two-topper, trying to hold on to her barstool from other people who were standing and wanted it…

    I was so annoyed. I said “when you are late like this, I feel like you’re saying your time is more valuable than mine”. I got an eye roll and “I’m busy at work!” B1tch, so am I! But I prioritized meeting you! And then she was annoyed at me for only staying 15 minutes, and for not pre-ordering her a drink at happy hour prices.

    She has been a good friend over the years when she’s there but she is late for everyone. She thinks it’s cute, apparently, and will say “sorry! I was on Emily* time!”

    Thankfully she didn’t pull the Emily time thing last night because I think I would have lost my sh1t.

    So, the question is, for those if you who are chronically late, seriously – what is your deal? I want to hear your side of the story and why I shouldn’t just let my friendship with Emily* fade. And you can be anonymous here, so fess up!

    *not her real name

    1. I’m always punctual and, honestly, this is why I bring a book with me everywhere. Most of my friends are chronically 15-20 minutes late. I know they will be, but I can’t seem to stop myself from being on time, so I just bring a book.

      1. I don’t get people who are late either. Sometimes it’s bad enough that I drop the relationship. Sometimes I force myself to also be late. If we agree to meet at 7:00, I don’t arrive until 7:15. I’m still the first one there, but at least I’m not quite as annoyed.

      2. Do you two have friends who are 30-60 minutes late on the regular, or would you drop a friend like this?

        1. 30 minutes I can handle occasionally (like dinner once every six weeks or so). 60 minutes I would drop after I had mentioned my frustrations once or twice.

        2. Not on the regular, no. It has happened to me before, and I was pretty irritated. If it became a regular occurrence, honestly yes I probably would eventually drop the friendship.

        3. I personally would stop making plans with somebody who was always 30-60 minutes late.

      3. I have been known to lie to chronically late friends about the start time so they arrive roughly on time.

      4. I’m not just punctual, I’m usually early, I have to force myself to only get somewhere a minute before or after the time I agreed to meet someone because my parents drilled it into me the importance of being on time, and taught me how to do that. Aim to be a little early, give yourself extra travel time, and understand that leaving at 6 doesn’t mean starting to get ready at 6, it means your shoes are on, coat is on, purse is packed and in hand, your hair is brushed, and you are literally walking out the door at 6.

        30-60 minutes late all the time though? Not cool. At least text me to tell me you’re running late to I can adjust my expectations. Being busy at work is fine, but you can’t leave me hanging around wondering where you are for half an hour.

    2. Because in my head, “meet you at 7” means I go to do the thing at 7 but I have never grasped that I need to count backwards from 7 to determine the time I need to leave wherever I am to get to the thing at 7. It’s a blind spot.

      1. Really? Wow. I’m sorry but that just seems like a basic English language comprehension fail. Do you feel the same way about meeting start times at work? What if it takes both people different amounts of time to get there because they’re coming from different parts of town? Under your interpretation, the two of you have –stupidly– agreed to start the thing at different times. I just don’t get how you can go through life with this blind spot for that long. I have literally never heard anyone else say this before.

      2. Same. 100% same. That and a consistent lie in my head that I can get anywhere in town in 15 minutes (newsflash – I can’t). I get that it is a failing and it’s one I do try to work on. And I understand the OPs frustration, but I do promise it’s not directed at them.

        1. While harsh, +1. If you know it’s a thing you do…why not plan around it. I (assume) that’s basically what the rest of us do – plan all the things I need to do to be to a place by a certain time, which include travel time and park time.

          And even then, you can be off – but I’m willing to forgive 15 minutes if I know someone is traveling in downtown traffic and has to park. 30-60 minutes means a need to reschedule.

          1. I’m the person who posted at 3:38 pm, and yes, my mom has been trying to impress on me since early childhood that it takes time to get places and you need to plan for that. I think it’s more like some of us aren’t PLANNERS, particularly. I’m not saying it’s impossible to plan around my tendencies or that this is an admirable quality, but the OP for this thread asked why people are late, and in my case, that’s how it happens.

            The post at 3:43 pm explains it well.

        2. This was super unnecessary. Chronic lateness annoys those of us who are punctual but it’s actually really common.

        3. OP again – Hey everyone, please, no piling on. I really do want to hear the perspectives of chronically late people, and if you’re going to use it as an opportunity to bash on them, I’m afraid the lurkers won’t speak up.

    3. I read somewhere once that being chronically late is a symptom of optimism – that late people are too optimistic that they can go everywhere, say yes to everyone, do all the things, make all the green lights, get out the door on time, etc. They fail to plan for eventualities like a 5 minutes to find keys and put on shoes, 2 minutes for a slow elevator, time for traffic, etc. They’re blindly optimistic that it will all happen perfectly, and believe in their own ability to move quickly.

      1. I am a chronically late person (I’ve never been more than 20 minutes late, but I am almost always 5-10 behind schedule) and this is perfectly correct for me.

      2. I understand this rationally but I get so mad at people who are like this! How do you reach adulthood and not learn the skill of showing up somewhere on time? And I know that people who are chronically late to social functions usually have the ability to bust out an on time arrival when it’s really important. So that just reinforces that when it comes to meeting *you* it’s just not that important for them to be on time.

        1. OP here, unfortunately that is also my impression. I don’t think Emily was 45 minutes late to her job interview, for instance (though she was late to our mutual friend’s bridal shower and showed up in the middle of the game -“Emily time!”)

          1. I am the optimistic late person. And, I was late to my wedding. And to 1 job interview. Typically for Really Important Things, I take off an entire day and plan to arrive like 2 hours early (which never happens).

        2. Well, to be fair, part of it with social occasions specifically is this idea of being “fashionably late.” I suspect that if people were ingrained to think that they needed to be at a party that started at 7 at 7, opposed to 7:15/7:3o because if you arrive at 7 the host may still have on curlers, than it probably wouldn’t carry over to other social events as much.

          1. I’ve never thought that’s what being fashionably late was about. I thought it was so you could make an entrance. You should never show up early because they host might not be ready, is what I’ve always been told, but I’ve never heard that you should be late for that reason.

          2. I meant one-on-one things, like OP’s example. You can’t be “fashionably late” when there’s only two people!

          3. Plus I think that only applies to a party at someone’s home — not someplace where the other person has to hold seats.

      3. This is me. I genuinely think I’ll catch every green light, find my shoes, etc. I’m 10 minutes late for many things or things that might have a soft start / the other people are likely to be late (thinking back to my going out days when I haaaated being the first person there by myself). Being 45 minutes late for something across the street is inconceivable to me, though.

        1. I think your comment about hating being the first person there by yourself is actually underlying a lot of this behavior and isn’t acknowledged often enough. I hate being late with a passion. Even if it’s for something like a dinner reservation with family, where we are all arriving together so the only person impacted by our lateness is the restaurant, I start to get really anxious because I don’t want to inconvenience anyone. My husband, on the other hand, hates getting places early because he feels like it’s a waste of his time to wait around for others. But because no one can plan to be exactly on time all the time, he’s basically saying its more important for him not to wast time waiting for someone else to show up than it is to make sure someone else doesn’t have to wait for him.

          1. I actually hate showing up early for fear that no one else will come. Being late (just a little) gives me some assurance that someone else will actually be there.

          2. So… I just have to ask? If you’re always late because you hate being first or worry that your friends will no-show, don’t you think your friend waiting there for you might also hate the same things? But is doing it for you?

          3. I honestly think people who are less valuable as contacts get stood up more. I don’t think it’s likely to be a reciprocal anxiety.

          4. Different Anon, but here’s the thing: if you are chronically late, you’re used to people being there when you show up. Then you make the effort to change, arrive not just on time but *before everyone else*, and… wonder if you’re being stood up, got the wrong time, etc. It just “feels off” and causes its own anxiety – a new, unfamiliar anxiety.

            That doesn’t make it okay, but it’s why it happens.

      4. I’ve found this to be true too. I have one (now former) friend who could. not. grasp. that it takes more than 5 minutes to get from her house to literally anywhere. She lives in a very out of the way location. She’s weirdly defensive when you tell her the actual time it will take to get from her house to the mall or whatever. She will argue with you and even insist that your directions/google maps are wrong. I’ve even timed her when I’ve driven with her and she insists my phone is wrong or I must’ve read it wrong.

        I got in one fight with her because I refused to ask my BF (who was going to be my dd for the day) to pick her up. BF and I were long distance and he was going to be in the car for 5 hours that day. I told her it was unfair to ask him to drive so far out of his way to get her when he was already driving a lot; she should get a cab to and from my place if she wants a ride. Queue massive argument about how she’s only 5 minutes out of the way she can’t understand why I won’t even ask him to do this tiny favor for her.

      5. I am a formerly chronically late person. It’s still something I struggle with, but now it’s more like one of ten times I’ll be 5-10 minutes late, if something crazy unexpected happened. I used to be very, very bad about this. Missed trains, late to a job interview, leaving my apartment at the time I needed to meet someone 30 minutes away, all of it. It was because I always thought I could get ready/finish my work/etc. faster than I could. I’m an optimistic person who loves life, says yes to everything, and thinks I can get everything done. I’ve learned I can’t.

        The most cringeworthy moments to me were times like you describe, when I made friends wait during one-on-one meetings. (Never for 45-60 minutes, but definitely for 30…).

        It took me a really, really long time to get better. I’ve also struggled with my weight and healthy eating habits, and it’s been just as hard, if not harder, than that. I knew I was hurting my friends and made them feel like their time was not valuable. I was incredibly embarrassed about it. I felt awful and guilty every time I was late. But this is a VERY hard thing to change. I guess it might be hard to tell, but is this something that your friend hates about herself and is trying to change, or does she actually just not care about other people? If it’s the former, try to think about something in your life that you struggle with (Smoking? Eating healthy? Exercise? Staying up too late?), have compassion, and recognize it as a bad habit that is extremely hard to change. If it’s the latter, then yeah, maybe reconsider the friendship. No one’s perfect. When someone’s bad habits hurt other people, intentions are what matter to me. I guess YMMV, though, because having gone through this myself and being easily entertained in the age of smartphones, I never mind waiting for people.

        1. Eh I mean I think it’s one thing if a friend is genuinely sorry and tries to make it up to you. It’s quite another if someone eye rolls that she’s busy, complains that you didn’t have a drink waiting for her, and then whines that you have to leave to catch your train — because obviously your entire night needs to adjust to her schedule! The whole thing is entitled and selfish. Tbh I’d be more mad about the bratty behavior after she finally showed up than the lateness (and I’m a stickler for punctuality).

          1. +1

            People are late sometimes. But showing up an hour late and then being like, why didn’t you buy me a drink is pretty over the top incredibly rude.

        2. Yes this. It’s a habit similar to never working out and being less healthy than I should be. Yes there are people who have the discipline to make a change right away and have it stick, but most people have a couple blind spots that they work on and may not get all the way there.

          I was chronically late, but I worked on it and now am reasonably on time for most things. (Maybe 5-10 minutes for a large party where I’m not the guest of honor.) I still struggle with my weight and eating habits, so it’s a work in progress to improve myself. But I’m trying.

          Just like people who are happy with the body they’re in, sometimes there are people who are happy to always be late. Sounds like your friend might be one of those. She gets to do her, but you also get to do you. If you can’t deal, it’s totally okay to let the friendship fade.

        3. It’s interesting to hear that you felt really badly about it when you were chronically late. I have wondered if *Emily’s being cute about it or annoyed right back when I’m annoyed with her is really masking some sort of guilty feeling about it.

          You’re making me feel more charitable toward her, instead of angry, and that’s why I asked the question, so thanks.

          I thought I was setting boundaries when I said I had to leave at x time, but I think really in the future I will be more explicit and say I’m not waiting longer than 15 minutes in a bar by myself.

          1. I’m chronically late and am sooo interested to hear it described as akin to challenges with healthy weight/eating. Your friend here sounds horrible — I agree with other chronically late folks that I always feel AWFUL and horrible and tend to try to actively make amends like buying the dinner.

            To the OP your friend sucks. All chronically late people do but if she’s not even apologetic about it and whiny about missing drink prices and you having to leave at the time you declared earlier, she’s in her own lala land.

          2. The comparison feels not quite right to me. Being late might not be intended to snub others, but it directly affects people around you. Diet fails don’t, unless you wanted the same cupcake that I’m devouring.

        4. 1. My dad used to think it only takes 20 minutes to get places. 2. My mom takes forever to get ready. 3. I have ADD. 4. Depression makes it hard to get up every day, so I have difficulty getting to work earlier if needed in order to leave earlier and attend an after-work event. For social events, there’s social anxiety and worry about saying the wrong thing/ bringing the wrong thing/dressing improperly/offending someone./ having nothing to say.

          TBH, when I arrive early, I have no idea what to do or how to handle it, aside from helping out (if relevant) or reading a book. I agree with others who find it uncomfortable.

      6. This also describes me (especially when it comes to estimating travel time). I am also never offended when other people run late, unless they don’t communicate, or lie about being on their way.

      7. This is really true.

        I have improved by:
        Not scheduling so much stuff (so I might just turn down the happy hour invites).

        Not trying to “please” people with my arrival time. If I think I can make 7 pm, and they would prefer 7 pm, I finally – it took me over 30 years to do this – just say 7:30. I have to remind my sometimes people-pleasing brain that the other person would rather *know* it’s 7:30 and plan, than have me show at 7:15.

        Oh, and just try to cram less stuff into the day.

    5. OP here. I’m not here to argue with any of you who are confessing that they are chronically late. I appreciate your perspective and hope to hear more of it!

      1. So I have a friend who is chronically late and I just mentally adjust the time back 30 mins when I make plans with her. So if we make plans for “7” I plan on arriving at 7:3o. She’s an amazing friend and this is worth it for me.

        1. This is what I learned to always do with my dad after being the last kid waiting to get picked up so many times. He just really thought he could get across town in 15 minutes, when it sometimes takes 45 minutes. He also gets really involved in whatever he is doing and loses track of time. So I would tell him I needed to be picked up 30-60 minutes before I actually did.

      2. In addition to “15 min. to get anywhere,” I also think it only takes me “5 min. to get out the door.”

        I’m not “always” late – I think I know there are things I cannot be late for and I do try to compensate for my natural tendencies by aiming to be 30 min. early, which roughly gets me wherever on time. For those that say, “well then why not always do that?” Honestly, because it’s really stressful for me. I would never be an hour late for drinks with someone because that’s rude, but if I know that I’m meeting two friends who are already there I may be 15 min. late because they’re not alone and I think that’s okay. Or I may show up 20 minutes late to a party at your house because I figure you’re fine without me for a spell (I wouldn’t do this for a dinner party, obviously). My friends are all similar so we usually make it work – like we’ll make plans to meet after work but text each other when we’re leaving so no one is stuck waiting. One thing I consistently notice is that on days when I can leave work “on time” (e.g., 5 pm) I actually leave at least 10-15 min. later because for me to leave earlier would mean stopping work earlier too. So from my point of view, it feels like everyone who leaves “on time” is actually slacking a bit in the office… Anyway, it’s complicated; there is an element of knowing what you can get away with involved but it’s also not personal. Like I’ve never thought “oh I am meeting so and so, I can be late.” It’s more that sometimes I know I absolutely can’t be late and stress out a lot to make that happen.

        1. Your comment about thinking you only need 5 minutes to get out the door reminded me of my college dorm mate. She would always say, I just need 5 minutes to do my makeup and then we can leave. It was always more like 15 minutes for makeup and then more minutes for finding shoes, changing outfit, etc. I finally asked her why she always said 5 minutes. She said she followed a makeup routine she had read about called “five minute makeup”. Since she did those exact steps, she just assumed it was taking 5 minutes!

      3. For me, it’s ADHD. I have serious problems planning out timelines. It’s the optimism described above, but also I just am leaving out significant steps, like the fact that I have to get my keys and wallet together before i leave the house and that’s going to take a non-zero amount of time.

        I can do it for big events, but it is a strain (and involves planning to be there super early). So yes, I can be on time if I need to, but I can’t put that level of effort in for everything, and it’s not because I don’t respect and like my friends.

        I will say, I have gotten better over time. I have a pretty boring life, so I have a good sense of how long some stuff takes because I’ve done it a million times (ie – I have to leave my office by 5:35 in order to be sure to get to daycare before it closes). But if I’m going somewhere I don’t go regularly, out of my typical routine, there’s a pretty high chance I’m going to be late, or that I’m going to be on time only because I left myself what I thought was a comically large margin of error.

      4. I was chronically early, but since I’ve had a kid I feel like I’m always running late, even when taking my toddler along.

        There is a ~40 minute window between when childcare opens and my first meeting each morning and my commute takes ~25-30 minutes so it’s a rush.
        Leaving work on time is hard when i barely make it in to the first call each morning. This means i leave as late as possible to ask make it in time to release the babysitter, and any day i make it with more than 10 minutes to spare is a great day.

      5. I am often 10 to 15 minutes late to my appointments, and once 40 minutes late to my interview (which you probably could guess the outcome of.) That said, I think Emily*’s behavior is inexcusable, and I would have never behaved that way if I arrived late. I’m very conscientious of how my behavior affects other people, so if I were given a chance I would choose an individual assignment over a group task––because I know I tend to procrastinate so I don’t want others’ grades or performance to suffer because I didn’t hand in my part in time.

        Now, the reasons. I am in no way defending this tardy behavior, but just trying to explain and overcome it. When I have an appointment somewhere in the city, I would calculate the travel time and etc. and tell myself a time to leave. The thing is, when I was getting ready, I often get too focused on the thing I’m doing at hand or get distracted by an interesting article on my phone, which took me away from my time commitment and I’d forget about it for a while; and then it would be all too late. When it comes to homework and etc., I procrastinate because I want to wait for the perfect moment to start, when I have all the materials or data ready, which will never happen. I think I’m also a bit of a perfectionist so I don’t want to just start with something rough and then come back to revise. My behavior has cost me dearly during my college and graduate school years, and it is still affecting me when I am now looking for a new job. Most of the time I was able to pull something together at the very last minute (I went to great schools but got very fluctuant grades). But I feel the regret of “could have” many times in my life.

    6. You don’t have to be friends with someone you feel disrespected by. An hour is really late, even for a chronically late person.

      To answer your question: I have a poor sense of time and how long things actually take/how many steps it takes to get out the door. Also when I was younger I had social anxiety and it really stressed me out to get somewhere first and wait (too much time to think about will the other person actually show up, how will I greet them, etc).

      I get stressed out now by my own lateness when it’s bad because I don’t want to upset others, but old habits die hard. I think I actually see the world differently from people who are consistently super punctual. I will never understand people who turn up to things early.

    7. I think some people are just wired differently and don’t have a concept of time. Just like some people just don’t see things as being messy/dirty in their house.

      OP, that sounds incredibly frustrating. It seems like one of those situations where you need to tell her to be there at 5 so you can plan on her being there at 5:30 or 5:45.

    8. Kudos to you for calling her out in the moment. She brushed it off because really what is she going to say, but hopefully it got through to her at least a little bit. Work on enforcing boundaries – again good for you for not letting her talk you into missing your train – and she will either adapt or you will not see much of her.

      I have an Emily. She is always late for everything and everyone*. Except me. She knows I will leave within 5 minutes of the appointed time. I had to enforce this boundary many times and endure many whiny texts/phone calls. But she is no longer late, or if she is running late, she gives me honest updates about her status.

      *She was recently 3 hours late for a first date. The guy still went out with her. And went on 2 more dates with her after that – where she was also hours late. She decided not to see him anymore. Friend is also quite attractive, fwiw.

    9. I was an Occasionally Late person (not with work stuff, just with friends, and never more than 10 minutes), but I stopped after a friend made a joke about how exciting it was when I showed up on time for a date. I realized it was inconsiderate, and was able to stop.

      BUT. Your friend sounds like not a friend; it’s the eye-roll and the “I’m busy at work” response that gets me. It tells me that she just doesn’t care about your feelings; you were pretty direct in saying that it hurts your feelings when she’s late like that, and she responded really rudely and made it clear that she doesn’t care about your feelings. I vote blow her off.

    10. My mom was chronically late when I was a child and it drove me nuts. I am always at least 5 minutes early everywhere I go and have no patience for people who are late. I count backward from the time I need to meet someone with each thing I need to do. So if dinner is at 7:00, I know I need 5 minutes to go to the bathroom and 5 minutes to park. Now I know I need to get to the parking lot at 6:50. If it takes me at least 20 minutes to drive to the parking lot and I’ll have to take an elevator down from my apartment, I need to leave my apartment by 6:30. Etc. etc.

      My mom has made great strides in the past 20 years to be on time, and generally has succeeded. She told me that, until I explained it to her, she never considered counting backward and accounting for each and every thing that needed to be done before she needed to arrive somewhere. Instead, when dinner was scheduled at 7:00, her brain told her she needed to stop what she was doing at 7:00 to start proceeding to dinner. 7:00 was the number that stood out in her mind for when she needed to change gears, not 7:00 minus the time to do all the things that needed to happen before then. She said that she used to drive places, already late, and cook up excuses for why she was late to try to justify it. She says her life is more peaceful now that she isn’t frantic in trying to get everywhere because she leaves earlier and usually isn’t late.

      Also, read this article, which I found very helpful: https://www.sciencealert.com/chronically-late-personality-type-scientists-study

      I did know one woman who said she was always late because she didn’t want to have to wait on other people; my head nearly exploded.

      1. Sidenote: I sometimes wonder if Google Maps doesn’t make this worse. If it says it will take you 20 minutes to get somewhere, do chronically late people take that as gospel and not factor in, e.g., time it will likely take to find parking? And then time to walk from your parking place to the restaurant?

        1. I also wonder if texting makes it worse. Some people who are chronically late think it’s okay to text about 5 minutes after the appointed time to tell me they’re running late. I have certainly had times when I was late and was grateful I could let the other person know. But texting “running late” does not make doing it every time we get together okay.

          1. ++11 I think it makes it much worse. People now assume it’s OK to be late as long as you text. IT’S NOT. I still interrupted my life and stopped what I was doing to get there and not keep you waiting. Why can’t you give me the same courtesy of stopping your life and making an effort for me?

          2. This, and people who “let you know when they’re leaving.” No, I don’t want to agree to do dinner at 8 and then be on standby until 8:35 until you’re done doing your makeup and hair and whatever when we’re just trying to get a dang sandwich.

        2. Google Maps is itself a bit optimistic about green lights and crosswalks, in my experience.

          2. I’m someone who is usually on time or early, sometimes 5 minutes late, but very rarely more than 10. I live in a car city with stupid traffic- not LA stupid, but still stupid. And sometimes it’s unpredictable. Last night at 6:30 p there was no congestion, but today there is. Sometimes the main road I take home is a parking lot. I and most of my friends are understanding that sometimes you just can’t control things like that and people kinda gives a free pass for stupid traffic. If I was going to commit to being exactly on time every time, that would mean leaving 2X earlier, just in case. Not feasible all the time. If I’m going somewhere truly important like court or an interview or a client meeting, I’ll leave very early just to be safe and spend 20 minutes sitting in my car.

            I have an Emily in my friend group, too. It’s obnoxious, but my solution is to only hang out with her in groups and just move on without her. She’ll show when she shows. It doesn’t rile me up too much, but I can’t understand how she’s not riled up! I’d be so worked up if I was constantly late and didn’t stick to a schedule. But some people are happier that way and just roll with it. People are different.

        3. I live in the DC area. Apple/Google maps has done me wrong more than once – in my driveway, it says my estimated time of arrival is, say, 8:00AM. But now, 15 minutes into the drive, my ETA is 08:28AM! Traffic and all that.

          I’m rarely if ever late for anything. I’d rather arrive 30 minutes early to something than come flying in the door on one wheel, offering breathless apologies for being late.

      2. My mom had a tendency to run late (she doesn’t have a great sense of time passing), but she valued being early. Since she couldn’t manage “on time”, we would often be stupidly early for things. I think a lot of people are balancing “10 minutes late” vs. “50 minutes early.” That doesn’t explain how Emily is 45 minutes late though.

    11. Oh man. I have pretty bad ADHD, and I am nearly always on time or close to it because I obsess over it. (As in, I will have a nightmare about being late to the thing the night before the thing. I’m aware this isn’t great.) If I’m more than a few minutes late, it’s usually because I got lost or got the date entirely wrong.

      Part of me admires/values/envies how chill some of my late friends are, and I frame their lateness as the price of their calming and relaxed attitudes. (This is super biased, because I dislike non-friends who are relaxed and late for both their tardiness and their relaxed attitude!) I also love how relaxed I feel when I’m visiting with communities who have a culture where agreed-upon times seem to be treated like more of a suggestion (although this is relaxing partly because I have to give up on getting other things done!).

    12. I’m often 5-15 min late for things. I am rarely later than that and try to communicate when I am (though it is hard to make the decision whether to pull over to make a call or keep moving to avoid the additional delay of pulling over). Generally, it is optimism. Sometimes, it is a failure to plan well/some level of disorganization. And sometimes, it is because as an underling who answers to others at work, I often do not have control over my time. I might have plans to go to a baseball game at 7:30, execute my day well to get out the door at 6:30, and, out of the blue, have a brief dropped on my desk for review at 6:25 by a partner who would be upset I was even thinking of leaving at 6:30 and will not tolerate my making a call to give notice before doing the review. Sometimes such things even happen on the weekend. Or some piece of work takes longer than I expected and I can’t delay completing it for 3.5 hours in order to avoid being 15 min late to dinner with my parents. Sorry.

      1. Unless I’ve missed it (which is entirely possible), I don’t think anyone has addressed the fact that the late person implicitly devalues the on-time person’s time by showing up more than a few minutes late – the Late arrival signals to the Punctual person that Punctual’s time is less valuable than Late’s, and that Punctual doesn’t have anything else that she could be doing while she waits for Late’s arrival. I have no patience for this. Even if I don’t have something else that I could/should be doing at that moment, the fact that the other person just assumes that I can sit around and wait on them for half an hour makes me feel like they do not value my time or my friendship. It may be harsh, but I have definitely ended friendships over this.

        1. This whole outlook on time is so peculiar to our culture that I’m not sure you can draw this conclusion universally (for other W.E.I.R.D. people perhaps, but I think it’s important to recognize that this isn’t the only or obviously best way of thinking about life or going through one’s day).

          1. I don’t grasp what you’re trying to say here? That our culture over-values punctuality compared to other cultures? I tried to google W.E.I.R.D. culture and didn’t manage to figure out what that is.

    13. I would absolutely drop a friend who was more than 10 minutes late on a regular basis (even 10 is annoying). Why be friends with people who don’t value your time? It’s one thing if you show up at their office or house to surprise them and they can’t join you right away, but to agree upon a time and have one person consistently blow it off is a dealbreaker for future one-on-one meet-ups.

      1. Why be friends with someone who struggles with a bad habit that is really hard to break, amirite? No friends who struggle with smoking, drinking, drugs, weight loss, saving money, or any other personal failings for me!

        If this is how you feel, I’m sure the friends you drop will ultimately realize they’re better off for losing a friend who lacks compassion.

        I get dropping a friend who is late all the time and just doesn’t care and isn’t trying to change it, but in my experience, most chronically late people are deeply embarrassed about it, realize it’s a problem, realize it makes their friends feel like their time is not valued, and are trying to change. I’ve made this change now (I’m on my mid-30’s), but it was really really hard and I probably had some friendships fade in my 20’s because of it. I was upset at the time, but now that I’m older and wiser, I realize it was a great screening mechanism to weed out friends with no compassion. So, keep ending those friendships! Show people who you are.

        I realize this may be a little harsh when your comment was not the harshest one on this thread, so I’m sorry it happened to land here. This is really directed at everyone above who is SO GREAT at being on time, thinks it’s something that is easy (like being skinny and quitting smoking!), and drops friends for it.

        1. Also, for what it’s worth, OP, it sounds like “Emily” may be in the “just doesn’t care” category, so I’m not trying to suggest you lack compassion if you’re fed up with her. My comments were about *most* chronically late people, since you asked the question generally.

        2. Come on. My friend’s weight, money saving abilities, drinking too much, smoking (assuming she doesn’t smoke around me) do not directly impact me. A proper analogy is like this:

          My friend blows smoke in my face, or won’t stop smoking near me even though it triggers my asthma or smells terrible? Nope. Hard pass.

          My friend drinks too much and I have to baby sit her all the time and drive her home and clean up her vomit over and over again? Nope. Hard pass.

          People are allowed to set boundaries without being cast as judgmental shrews.

          I’m not saying that there shouldn’t be compassion, but don’t sit there and pretend that its like a disability that doesn’t affect anyone else and we’re just being judgey. Not accurate.

        3. I’m anon at 5:40 and I guess where we differ is that most chronically late people I know are NOT actively trying to change it. Literally every late person in my life will do a breezy “sorry I’m late!” or assume it’s ok as long as they’ve texted me that they’re late. It never, ever changes, there are never any discussions about trying to change, and it’s just not worth it at some point. I’d still be happy to chat with these people if we crossed paths at a party, but I’ll definitely stop planning meet-ups.

          1. Fair enough, and I appreciate the level-headed response to my semi-rant. If someone has a bad habit that negatively affects other people and isn’t trying to change, doesn’t show remorse, and doesn’t seem to care at all about the people affected, then that’s different.

      2. As someone with this problem, I avoid one-on-one meetups as much as possible for this reason, and my general philosophy is for people not to wait for me, and I’ll catch up.

        If we’re talking about pet peeves related to meeting other people, I don’t like meeting with zero plans. I like to find possibilities ahead of time so that we either choose in advance or can choose when we meet, but otherwise you end up finding out that the movie/talk/gallery opening/concert/whatever has started already. I acknowledge that it is harder to do this in smaller areas with fewer options, and some people ask you out but avoid making plans because their plan is to bed you.

    14. I am chronically late due to being married to a man with raging, uncontrolled ADD who cannot keep a thought in his head long enough to force him to keep to any kind of schedule, for anything. Yes, it’s a huge problem that we have attempted to address in a variety of ways. I am constantly apologizing and joking that I will be punctual as a widow.

    15. I give people the benefit of doubt though I am dying inside. Then one day, I simply stop trying to socialize with them. I have a very small social circle and it’s OK. Also, over the years, I learned it’s OK to just walk away. I will not be sat by myself at a place where I planned on having company. There is a difference between me intentionally going to a coffee place to ponder my life in silence and being stood up at a restaurant

  9. Could I get some advice from someone with domestic relations experience?

    I’m a first-time pro bono attorney with a child custody case (and I can’t even tell you how far outside my usual job this case is = pretty clueless lawyer). The only acceptable solution to the mediator seems to be joint custody. He keeps telling my client that she really does want joint custody, it’s what’s best for the kids, it’s fairest to the father, etc. Um, no. The father is…not a good guy. (He’s spent his entire life either in jail or about to be in jail. The kids say he deals drugs in front of them, that he hits them, etc.) The last time we saw the judge, he just sent us back to mediation. My client called me crying today because she’s so upset and frustrated.

    I can’t reach anyone at Legal Aid. I can’t reach the mediator. I’M frustrated and angry for my client now, too. How do I break through this log jam to actually get what’s best for my client and her children?

    1. Are you trying to reach Legal Aid to rep your client? I work at a Legal Aid. There’s basically no way to call for info unless you call our intake, which the potential client would need to do. Does this Legal Aid have a pro bono project? We do. I would suggest contacting that person to see if you can volunteer “through” them and get the coordinator’s take on the case. We always need family law volunteers-no one wants to take those cases because they can go on for years. Some states are very into equal parenting time. Is there a GAL or social services involved due to the children’s allegations of physical abuse and drug use?

      1. It’s a Legal Aid case. I’ve been trying to reach the attorney POC. No, no GAL or social services.

        And yes, I’ll say that I’m unlikely to volunteer again. This is insanely frustrating. I feel like I’m working completely in the dark about ALL of this.

        1. Oh dear, that’s not good. I would keep calling the legal aid attorney and say you need help and guidance for the client’s sake. Sorry you’re having this bad experience :(

    2. For better or for worse, in the eyes of many mediators and courts, “what’s in the best interest of the children” is generally joint custody. It’s usually going to at least need to be tried and shown to be unsuccessful if the other parent is fighting for joint custody or time. Is the abuse documented?

      1. I’m immeasurably grateful that my mom stayed with my dad long enough that we were never left alone with him. It’s the only thing that would’ve been worse than staying with him. But I hate that these are the options.

    4. I am not a lawyer, all I know comes from listening to my own lawyer talk during my own divorce. I’m sure this varies drastically across jurisdictions. That said, I got the impression that in my county, it’s routine to go through mediation and have it fail and go to trial if you want anything other than the standard parenting arrangement (which is joint custody and 50/50 parenting time) and the other parent objects. The mediator sees their job as explaining to people what the standard arrangement is and selling them on it, because that’s how you avoid trial, and that’s what most couples are going to end up with even if they go to trial. In my county, your client would just need to keep repeating to the mediator that she doesn’t think joint custody is to the benefit of her children given the particular circumstances of her case, and after a few sessions the mediation would be declared unsuccessful and they’d go to trial, at which point other options become possible if you have appropriate evidence.

      You are the lawyer, not me, so you know the actual procedures better, but that was the gist of things as my own lawyer explained them.

  10. Talk to me about dating someone who lives with his family…I’m 33 dating a 29 year old guy who lives with his mom. This is a first. I’ve lived on my own since I was 18.

    We are in a HCOL city, so it makes sense. The story is he lived alone for awhile after college and returned home to save for a house downpayment. Ok…but we don’t ever go to his place. We’ve been dating 2 months, and I find it weird that he has become familiar with my house, spending the night, cooking meals, hanging out…and I’ve never even seen his bedroom. Am I overthinking?

    I also haven’t met his mom, which is not something I feel needs to happen at this juncture.

    1. I don’t think you’re overthinking…I think your intuition is telling you something. I wouldn’t want to meet his mom either right now, but I’d for sure want to know that his living situation matches with what he says.

      1. +1. At this point, I think it’s reasonable to say you need to see his home. Could he even facetime you and give you a tour? Or have you over when his mom is out? My friend once dated someone who lived at home, but in the early days went over when she was out.

        1. The skeptic in me says ask for an in-person visit while mom is out. In a FaceTime tour, he could still be avoiding evidence of, say, a wife.

      2. Yes. My intuition does find it weird. I doubt he is with his mom in the house 24/7. Surely she has meals out with friends and her own plans, during which time he could invite me over.

        1. I mean, my mom barely leaves her house except to go to the grocery store. Some people are home-bodies.

          2. Same.

            Also I know I would be really annoyed if my son’s girlfriend was demanding that I leave my own home so she could come over.

    2. My now husband was living with his elderly parents when we first started dating. He’d moved back home for a couple of different reasons, all valid, but it wasn’t something he really bragged about because he literally was an adult man living in his parents basement suite. I didn’t go to his house at all for the first few months because we weren’t to that point of meeting the parents. I think parents are different than roommates and have different standards for their space. It would have felt like high school all over again. My husband’s friends, who I had met, could basically verify his story so I didn’t think he lived some double life. Have you met this guy’s friends?

      1. OTOH when my brother was living with our parents in his early 30s (HCOL, all valid reasons), he brought almost all of his dates over to the house on the second or third date, usually for a quick stop – our parents were out sometimes but not always. I don’t know how the dates felt about this but I think it was honest of him to do so (although our parents’ house is a mess and this probably didn’t put our family in the best light, ha). That said, it did get kind of weird for me meeting woman #5 and secretly wondering if I’ll never see her again like the others (he married #5! and they used the money he saved living there to buy a house).

      2. Second this. At 22. I dated a 29 year old who lived with his parents, and we didn’t go to his house until his parents went on vacation because they were retired, didn’t have hobbies outside of church (which he also attended), didn’t eat out, and were actually home all the time.

        But if he’s hiding you from his friends, that’s a pretty big red flag. Don’t necessarily make a big deal out of it – friends aren’t always introduced within two months, but bring it up casually by introducing him to a couple of your friends and ask if you can meet up with his for drinks or dinner as well.

      3. I’ve met a couple of his friends, one of whom did mention him living with his mom.

        I also found his mom on his FB and looked up the property owner via the tax assessment database. A trust in her name does indeed own the house. So the story checks out, although I still find it strange. It just seems like a very asymmetrical situation.

        1. Look at it this way, you don’t have to worry that you have left too many toiletries at his house. You can always get ready in your own space, whatever.
          But, if you feel like you aren’t getting the same intimate insight about his personality because you don’t know how he decorates, or how tidy he is or whatever, find other opportunities for him to show you that. Ask him to cook you dinner at your place or to plan a date at his favorite place from growing up. It will become less weird as/if you get more serious.

          1. HA! You did somewhat hit the nail on the head. I do feel some discomfort in not seeing him in his natural habitat. I am not a neat freak, but I clean like one when he comes over to try to impress him and for a lack of knowledge about his own level of cleanliness and organization!

        2. Out of curiosity, do you mean asymmetrical because he is always at your place or do you mean that he is living with his mother rent-free?

          1. I’m an attorney who deals with a lot of investigations. Doesn’t matter who you are, I will look you up and if you own property, I will find it

          2. HA! Also an attorney, also used to looking up people via the local property database. I also run potential dates through the (public) court databases as a preliminary background check. I don’t even think twice.

      4. This was my thought too. I don’t think it’s weird that he hasn’t invited you over when he’s living with his parents. Any time you’d want to come over, his parents are probably home. Even if they go out to dinner or whatever, timing that right seems hard. Ok the coast is clear now you can come over! Keep an eye out for headlights! Ugh no thanks. If you insist on seeing his space despite the logistical issues he’s going to wonder why, and he’s going to realize that it’s because you don’t trust him. That’s… not a great message to send someone.

        Meeting the friends is a great option, though. If he pushes back on that, then I’d think something was up.

    3. I’m also 29 and living with my parents for a bit, after years of living on my own, also for financial reasons. I go to my boyfriend’s place a lot, he’s been to my place, but since he doesn’t have a car it’s tough for him to come over as often as I can get to his place.

      That said, it is fair to wonder if he’s telling the truth, because it would be so easy for a man living with a significant other or spouse to make up this story to cover, but a glance at his social media could confirm whether he’s single or not. You could also just say “look, I’m not ready to meet your mom and I totally sympathize with you living with her to save money, but this situation feels odd to me, I want to see where you live, is there any way that’s possible?”

      1. Thanks for the firsthand experience. We are friends on social media, and he does appear single. I can see his photos and friends, which is how I found a photo of him with his mom and tracked down her name on her profile to look up the homeowner and confirm its her.

        I will use your suggestion about is it possible to see his place sometime. I don’t want him to get offended by my question about his living arrangement, but I feel weird with the intimacy of spending so much time in my space, while his space is a total mystery to me.

        1. He probably doesn’t really think of it as his space though. I wouldn’t if I were him. I’m not saying it’s not weird for you, but the asymmetry is partly in your situations (he has no space of his own; you do) and not in the fact that he’s been to your place where you live and you haven’t seen the space designed and controlled by his parents where he essentially crashes.

    4. I don’t think that’s suspicious, at least not without more information. I moved in with my parents after graduate school for a combination of reasons (parents live in a city with great jobs in my field, but a very HCOL, student loan debt, etc). I stayed for about a year. During that time, I didn’t feel comfortable bringing dates home, and I don’t think I would’ve done so after just two months. You mention feeling bad about not seeing “his place.” Well to me, it wasn’t my place, but my parents’ (complete with parent-style decor and baby pictures everywhere). I tried to be considerate and plan activities so that I wasn’t always crashing my dates’ places, but I just never felt comfortable enough bringing someone home at such an early stage.

    5. DH lived with his parents after he got divorced from his first wife. His reasons for doing so seemed legitimate. I did not go to their house until we had been together six or eight months, which was also when I met his parents. He always came to my house. I did confirm early on though that he was divorced through public records. I also met many of his friends and his brother. With all of the information, I was not concerned he was married or hiding anything. It wasn’t ideal, but for me it also wasn’t a reason to not date him.

    6. You’re not going to his place because it’d be weird to meet his mom this early on, basically. When I lived with my parents and never had anyone over because it wasn’t my house, even though I had a perfectly normal/roommate-like relationship with my parents.

    7. It doesn’t sound suspicious but sounds like failure to launch. Even in a HCOL area, I wouldn’t want to date a guy who lived at home absent a compelling reason, like sick parents. Saving money, to me, get roommates.

      1. Do poor parents count? It makes sense to me, if you’re paying mom’s rent anyway, to save money by living there too.

        1. For sure, but that’s not what OP said is going on here. And everyone is allowed their own considerations in a relationship. Personally, the living at home to save money thing (while mooching off Mom and Dad in the process) was one of my dealbreakers even in my 20s because I valued independence even if that meant a lower standard of living. I also don’t value saving money at all costs (which is different from a lot of people on here) so that approach to life is, for me, a hard pass. I would have been willing to consider other compelling reasons (caregiving came to mind) but that’s about it.

  11. Anyone purchased a gift box from Bespoke Post? Looking into it for my SO.

  12. Looking for advice on how to help overworked H.

    H is a labor attorney. Didn’t like working in a law firm environment, so after four years he quit. Wanted to find work in government/policy, but couldn’t find anything. Was unemployed for nearly a year. Finally found a job as a labor rep for a union, but it was horrible – was forced to work long hours for little pay, and the organization was corrupt. (The irony of the poor working conditions for union employees is not lost on us, believe me.) Left that job to work for another union that pays better (medium pay), but again he is working 70+ hour days in a high-stress environment, traveling every week. He hasn’t had a good night’s sleep in years. He is now in his mid-thirties, and at this rate he is going to get a heart attack at an early age. It’s like watching someone literally work himself to death.

    He is Type A and meticulous, so part of the reason why he works long hours is his own doing, but he is good at his job which is why his bosses pile work on him. He sucks at advocating for himself in the workplace, so he is passed over for promotions. I am frustrated with him for having such poor instincts with his career. We are TTC but thank g0d we don’t have a kid right now – I would be raising thekid myself.

    I am helping him find another job, but he doesn’t want to work employer-side and I don’t blame him. Jobs in our area are scarce. I am willing to move, but not too far. Would a recruiter be able to help? Is it fair for me to be mad at him? Other than look for job postings, what do I do?

    2. Honestly I feel like it’s his job to do all of this. I feel like it’s fair for you to feel however you feel, but he’s a grown adult and it’s up to him to manage his career.

      Keep using birth control. He is showing you who he is and you need to pay attention.

      1. +1

        He should be dealing with the consequences of his own career choices. Sounds like he wants to have his cake and eat it too when it comes to a job. He’s got to realize that he is going to have to make some sacrifices — either do a job he doesn’t like as much or be constantly overworked.

    3. This is my field and I think the problem is him, not the job, and he should go to therapy. His job is not a 70 hour a week job! Until he figures out how to work efficiently and have boundaries changing jobs won’t help.

    4. Suggesting he work with a recruiter might be a good suggestion, but other than that I’m not sure you actually should be helping more. He can set up alerts for postings that are relevant, so why would you also need to help him look for those? Getting a handle on his career is his responsibility. I view my role in DH’s career as: offer support and a sounding board. I don’t view my role as try to get him to be a person who works less or differently or advocates better with his boss, etc. He’s the one in control of those things, and if he doesn’t want to do them, he doesn’t want to do them.

      I also think y’all need to be on the same page WRT whether these hours are sustainable if/when you have kids, and it sounds like you aren’t at all.

    5. If you’re “thanking god” you don’t have a child, why on earth are you trying to have a child? Start using birth control and reasss once his job situation is better.

    6. I actually really respect your husband for the work he is doing. It is thankless, low paid, long hours, high stress. I hear you that his personality/habits are also making this worse, but I also really give him credit for what he is doing. I wouldn’t want to work for “the man” either if I was in labor law.

      Hopefully he can find that government job. I’m sorry it is so hard…..

      1. It’s OK to be angry. And it’s OK to help him whether it’s your job or his. It sounds like he has trouble setting boundaries and I bet a counselor could give him some techniques to at least improve a little on that score. But on the other hand, I’m an attorney, and the fear of making a mistake and jeopardizing someone’s rights is very scary. Together, you can find the right job for him, I’m sure — but you may have to be flexible about location.

  13. Reiss sizes vary from suit to suit, so you really want to try them on rather than ordering online.

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