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And some of our latest threadjacks here at Corporette (reader questions and commentary) — see more here!
Some of our latest threadjacks include:
- What to say to friends and family who threaten to not vote?
- What boots do you expect to wear this fall and winter?
- What beauty treatments do you do on a regular basis to look polished?
- Can I skip the annual family event my workplace holds, even if I'm a manager?
- What small steps can I take today to get myself a little more “together” and not feel so frazzled all of the time?
- The oldest daughter is America's social safety net — change my mind…
- What have you lost your taste for as you've aged?
- Tell me about your favorite adventure travels…
Bluejay
Reposting from late yesterday – did you all see this article on the lawsuits former students are filing against their law schools?
http://nymag.com/news/features/law-schools-2012-3/
Kat, would be great to feature this in the weekly roundup on Friday.
Woods-comma-Elle
How interesting.
Something similar is going on here (England) but nowhere near as bad. We have two big law schools, each of which is a private corporation charging exorbitant amount for postgraduate law degrees and having special arrangements in place with big firms (so that a particular firm will require that all its future trainees attend one of these schools). However, for those starting law school without a job lined up, the fees are equally high and the likelihood of getting a job isn’t great.
People have been complaining that the law schools are offering places to pretty much anyone who wanted them and could pay (true), despite the fact that those people may not have sufficiently good academics to pass the exams/get jobs afterwards. So far I think the regulatory body has left this alone on the basis that these are private commercial organisations and are entitled to seek profits, but I suspect it’s only a matter of time before it all implodes…
anon for this
“People have been complaining that the law schools are offering places to pretty much anyone who wanted them and could pay (true), despite the fact that those people may not have sufficiently good academics to pass the exams/get jobs afterwards.”
This is also a problem in the U.S. But most people in the general public don’t realize this, so people get a lot of utility out of telling their grandma/friends/chicks in bars that they are “in law school,” no matter where they go, or “a lawyer,” even if they only do law work part-time. I think that’s a big part of the problem.
guest
it wouldn’t be that big of a problem, really, if they weren’t going $200,000 in debt to be able to say that. Obviously, people need to take responsibility for their own decisions but at the same time, law schools doctoring employment numbers and admitting new students when the school’s bar passage rate is 30% seems a lot like the sub prime mortgage crisis. You just have to wonder when the student loan bubble will burst.
anon for this
Fair enough. There’s no excuse for some of the blatant misrepresentations we’ve seen.
AIMS
I don’t know. The law schools discussed in the article don’t have 30% bar passage rates and most law students who attend these schools (and others) don’t really look at the employment statistics anyway. It’s sad to say but even when confronted with the actual prospects, most people assume they will be the exception.
I recently tried to talk a friend’s brother from attending one of the schools discussed and he wouldn’t budge. He was going because he didn’t know what else to do with his life post-English Lit degree and everything I said to him about the crappy market, etc., didn’t make any difference. He thinks he will make 6 figures and get a job, what I said didn’t make a dent.
CA Atty
My law school also raised tuition 25% after my first year, and I had a 33% scholarship that never said anything about ending but didn’t specifically guarantee it would be there for all three years but the entire scholarship “went away” somehow after my first year. I had everything planned out to be less than $100k in debt and ended up $200k down due to this.*
And I went to a top 30ish school (we jumped around in the rankings a bit, not sure where we are now, but definitely top tier).
Then, when my brother was adamant on going to law school I did everything I could to convince him not to. He literally said to me “I’ll just work hard, be in the top 5-10%, get a summer internship that pays well and then go big law in SF for a few years, no big.” I wanted to beat my head against a wall. He was always telling me I’m the smartest person he knows (yes, he’s a kissa**) and I didn’t end up in the top 5-10%!
“Luckily” he didn’t get into a school he judged worthy of his lofty aspirations, he had a rough year or two but now he has a job making high 5 figures that will almost certainly land him in 6 figured in the next couple years. And no educational debt.
*This was also my own fault, I couldn’t bear to face what my loans would be, plus had to take out a bunch more that I hadn’t factored on, and instead of going into super-save mode I went into “what the f, there’s nothing I can do about it now!” mode. I did work my last two years, so it could’ve been worse!
Bluejay
@CA Atty – that’s awful. I have also heard of schools giving scholarships that require you to remain in, say, the top 25%, but they give them to more than 25% of students. It seems like a lot of schools, despite their nonprofit status, really exist to make money. It’s a shame.
CA Atty
@Bluejay Yeah, I’m pretty sure the 33% scholarship was something like that. Only they didn’t say it was class-place contingent. They just said “Congrats, you’ve been awarded a scholarship!” In the fine print, “if at any time the school decides to discontinue this scholarship program…” Well, my school was fine financially, why would they discontinue it?
They did. And from talking to my fellow California transplants, they all got the same thing. At least one guy from NY had the same thing too. My guess is the regional school wanted to get more national attention and thought this would be the way to do it. The NY guy actually left school. He figured he was only about $25k in debt at that point and didn’t want to end up $200k in the hole. He ended up working as a paralegal in biglaw and making bank and then I believe he published a book that did okay. Jealous, in case you can’t tell! :-)
Bluejay
Interesting. I have several friends working in London in “magic circle” firms, but I have no clue about legal education there (even though I have an international practice). I should read up on it.
Woods-comma-Elle
Basically, magic circle and most Big Law firms will pay students to whom they offer a training contract (two-year apprenticeship after law school at a firm after which you qualify, no bar exam or the like) a scholarship for living expenses and pay their law school tuition fees. This is part of the reason why law school fees are so exorbitant as most of the students at the top two law schools are bankrolled by their future employer.
It means slightly less debt (or in some cases, none) for those people who have training contracts and can e.g live with parents for free. However, this only really applies to those who want to do commercial law and if you want to be e.g. an immigration/criminal/family lawyer, you most likely won’t get a free ride and have to pay for it all yourself and pay the Big Law skewed rates.
Former MidLevel
This is a really interesting article, Bluejay – thanks for sharing the link!
TCFKAG
I think a lot of people bringing these lawsuits are going to have a hard time proving to a jury the causal link. By that I mean, proving to them that if they had KNOWN that there was a good chance they wouldn’t get a Big Law job that they still wouldn’t have gone to law school. Because I think a lot of people delude themselves into thinking that they will be the exception — that THEY will be in the top 1% or 2% or 10% of their class (whatever the case may be) and that it’ll all work out for them.
guest
That’s why a key part of the suit is that the law schools put out misleading or straight-up wrong employment data. It’s one thing to say, “If you bet that you’ll be in the top 1% and lose, that’s on you;” it’s another thing to say that if you make a $200,000 investment based on data that was doctored by the school to try and get more money by luring students in, that THAT is on you, too.
But all in all, I think the lawsuit won’t be successful. I do think it’ll increase overall transparency though.
TCFKAG
Ha! I was hedging my comment as you typed yours. I agree that a lot of the TTTs (as they say on Above the Law) were just blatantly awfully wrong — I just think the law suits have a high bar to climb. That’s all. :-P
Bluejay
Yes. Misleading info like this:
http://www.cooley.edu/reports/nationalemployment.html
Note it says nothing about employment among recent law graduates.
TCFKAG
Though — my comment shouldn’t be read to say that I don’t think the blatant misrepresentations by the law schools are excused! I just think they’re going to have a hard time with a law suit, that’s all.
Bluejay
Yeah, I think you’re right – 90% of people think they’ll be in the top 10%. Also, by definition, people with low LSATs and low GPAs may not be that good at logical thinking – I think we’d be better off if law school admissions were more like med school admissions, where there’s a strict cutoff point and people who don’t meet it can’t get in anywhere. At least 1/3 of the law schools in the country should be shut down.
I have a cousin-by-marriage who scored in the 130s and is starting law school at – you guessed it- Cooley next fall. Nothing I or anyone else can say will dissuade him.
Miriam
130s!!!! Does he have a 4.0 at an amazing undergraduate school? That is just insane. I got a 138 the first time I took the LSATs in my prep course, but I was late, nervous, and hardly read the questions.
Bluejay
No. More like a 2.0 at a state school. Because of the part of the country I’m from, I’ve had occasion to know several Cooley students/grads – that school is a pyramid scheme. They admit anyone knowing they will fail out half the class after 1L year (and after collecting $40K in tuition). They put out their own rankings showing them as a top school, and people fall for it. It should be shut down.
I had a classmate at my undergrad who scored a 136 and managed to get into our school’s tier 2 law school’s part-time program, but she at least had a high GPA – she got in because three or four faculty members in her major wrote letters and made calls on her behalf. This girl was not that bright – I would not have wanted her as my lawyer. I can’t understand why she wanted to be one as she could have been successful in another field without the 3 extra years of school.
People just will not pay attention to the signs or listen to reason – going to Cooley law school with a 130s LSAT is like me trying to become an Olympic gymnast. I’m a size 14 and I have a back injury. Ain’t gonna happen.
fresh jd
@ Bluejay – why does Cooley bother to fail out half of its class in the 1st year if they can continue to collect tuition from these fine folk for another 2 yrs?
Bluejay
@ fresh jd – I’ve wondered that myself. Probably because they wouldn’t pass the bar/get jobs?
Maddie Ross
“Nothing I or anyone else can say will dissuade him.”
– Truer words were never spoken. There in lies the entire problem.
TCFKAG
I have always found that stubborn obstinance, an unwillingness to listen to other’s reasonable arguments, and terrible reasoning skills make for a great lawyer.
(Actually — two of those three do describe about half of the lawyers at most Big Law firms…so…he’s on his way!)
Law Clerk
TCFKAG – you made me laugh out loud.
The less funny part is how often I have to deal with briefs written by such lawyers. Sigh.
Diana Barry
Wow. How much debt does he expect to take on for – gack – Cooley?
I agree that the number of law schools/number of places should be reduced and then capped at the lower level. Why isn’t the ABA more like the AMA in this??? There are even people who go to the unaccredited schools, though…
Bluejay
@Diana Barry – Cooley costs more than 30K/yr in tuition alone, excluding other costs of attendance. And they fail out about 50% of their first-year class.
JessC
I’ll be honest – I went to law school thinking I would be in the top 10%. Largely, I think, because I was in the top 10% of my undergrad. Most of the people I went to law school were at least in the top third of their graduating undergrad class. Boy were my first semester grades a shocker (I ended up just shy of the exact middle of my class). That being said, I busted my butt on my grades, graduated in the top third of my class, networked like crazy, and still had a heck of a time finding a job. I didn’t go to a top school, but I went to a good school with a strong regional reputation.
However, I’d like to think that if the best school I could have gotten into was Cooley* that I would have thought the bettter of it.
As a side note, Cooley is opening up a satellite campus in my area. Yippee?
*My apologies to any Cooley grads who may be reading this.
Bluejay
@JessC – oh, I thought that too (I think most people do, but it only comes true for 10% of us). But I thought it at a top law school before the recession. Anyone who went to a low-ranked law school with the delusion they’ll be in the top 10% in the last 3 or 4 years is going to get a really rude awakening.
Lynnet
I didn’t go into the law school thinking I’d be in the top 10% of my class (I hoped, but was by no means certain, that I’d be in the top half and be able to keep my scholarship). I did go in thinking I’d be in the 99% of students who, according to my school, were employed 9 months out from graduation. I graduated in the top 15% of my class from Top 30 school. It’s 9 months out from graduation, and I don’t have a job, neither do far more than 1% of my fellow classmates.
On the other hand, while I think that what the schools do is shady, I spend a lot more time angry at myself for not being “good enough” than I do being angry at my school.
Homestar
I sympathize with Lynnet. I didn’t count on being top 10%, but I DID study the stats hard before I chose a law school. At my tier 1 law school, the employment stats I relied on were: 96% of graduates had jobs after graduation and the average salary was around $86,000. I went to law school solely to improve my salary (which at the time was around $35K). Things worked out OK for me, I did graduate top of my class, landed a high-paying job, and still have it. But I’m angry at how close I came to disaster and for what has happened to my friends, especially those in classes behind me.
It is misleading to report false employment numbers. Law schools should answer for that.
Blue
Yes. I graduated undergrad a few years ago and was fortunate enough to have recently graduated from a top 10 law school, so I have friends who ask me about law school alllll the time. People just do not realize what they are getting into with the “TTT schools.” It’s hard to even talk to them about it because I feel like I end up sounding super arrogant about where I went to school…but seriously, there is no reason to go to Cooley or other schools like that, especially in this economy.
fresh jd
But that applies to the majority of its graduates as is, sounds inconsistent with their m.o. of churning out as many grads as possible.
fresh jd
Ah, this was in response to Bluejay
2009 top 25 grad
It’s not even about getting a biglaw job. It’s about getting a job at all. I graduated in 2009 from a top 25 school and got my 9-month employment survey in December 2011! Meanwhile they were posting stats in mid-2010 2010 saying 95% of the class of 2009 was employed 9 months out with a median private sector salary of over $130,000. I have no doubt the only people who were included the first time were those they knew had the high-paying jobs. I am pretty sure around 50% of my class was unemployed at graduation (not counting possibly indefinite/ending deferrals), so the likelihood of a $130K median salary 9 months later is pretty much impossible.
Diana Barry
Wow. I wish the ABA would be more on top of schools about the employment data – that is ridiculous!
I am thankful that my parents paid for my law school, and that I graduated when basically whatever kind of job you wanted was available (I went to a top 5 school).
AIMS
I think that’s a big part of the problem. All the US News rankings, etc., leads to ALL schools skewing their numbers, not just the schools getting sued.
Honestly, I think the students bringing these lawsuits are only hurting themselves — I don’t think they have any serious chance of success and other than getting their school bad publicity, they are just making themselves look like they have little understanding of causation. I do hope it leads to some greater transparency but a) I don’t think greater transparency would prevent people who shouldn’t go to law school from going, and b) I don’t think any significant change will ever come until we reform the rankings system, which is such a big business that it’s not going to change any time soon.
TCFKAG
Frankly, in smaller legal markets — or really any legal market — what legal employer would hire these people? Its like they’d be walking into every interview with a big sign flashing on their head I LIKE TO SUE…I WILL SUE YOU IF I AM LAID OFF NO MATTER THE CAUSE.
I think the only reason to bring this suit would be if you’ve decided you have absolutely no chance at having a legal career…because otherwise you’re scr*wing yourself on the job market for the foreseeable future.
Blue
Yes, the rankings are a huge part of the problem. I know that at my school career services will get people “jobs” for the purposes of the employment numbers, but really they’re just short-term “jobs” so that the school can technically say you’re employed at 9 months…after that, you’re pretty much out in the cold.
Anon for this post
I actually never recieved a mailing asking about my job from my law school… And I was planning on sending it back blank in protest! They heard from other alum that I was working and counted that on their own. Nevermind that I am working TWO NON LEGAL JOBS to pay my bills and still looking for a full time attorney position. I went to an alumni event and they were asking us if we knew anything about other alumni who they hadn’t heard from. Apparently word of mouth about any hint of a job is enough to report!
CA Atty
I actually knew someone who got laid off from a large firm, was working (granted, as a manager) retail, and the Dean of Admissions flat out told her that would be counted because “you had a biglaw job (it wasn’t really biglaw, but okay) and you still have A job.”
AIMS
The problem with reported data, too, is it’s self perpetuating. If you’re happy and making a good salary, you’re much more likely to share that info with the school than if you’re, say, working a non-legal p/t job just to make ends meet. Sending a survey back blank actually wouldn’t do much – you would be better off sending it filled out to reflect your reality.
All the data is labeled as “self-reported” anyway – just incoming students don’t pay attention to what that means. I can’t believe your school relies on word of mouth though — I don’t think that’s at all acceptable.
anon
I wish U.S. News would include % reporting, like vote totals. The difference in, say, “average salary” looks very different for “$130,000 (99% reporting)” and”$130,000 (2% reporting).”
JessC
Did you and I go to the same school?? I think I may have received a survey at some point, though I’m pretty sure it was during bar study.
I getting annoying emails from career services asking how I was doing and inquiring if there was anything they could do to help. I mostly just ignored them. And then a few weeks after I started working at my current job, I got an email from them saying that they’d heard I got a job. I guess that was probably good enough for them.
2009 top 25 grad
@anon- they said something like 99% of my class had reported when the data was initially reported in 2010. I asked everyone I knew whether they’d received a 9-month employment survey and not one person answered “Yes.” As my law school class was not that big, my small sample size would have indicated that my school also fibbed on the percentage responding as well.
Alanna of Trebond
I’m kind of embarrassed to say this too–but I never even thought about employment prospects for after law school when I applied (in 2008, mind you–so definitely already in the recession). I have definitely lucked out, but I didn’t research employment numbers for any of the schools I was considering, although I did compare scholarship offers. I think that if I wrote on this board today as I was in 2008/2009 (that would put me ahead of senior year self, since I would even be *asking* for advice), some might counsel me against law school.
I was probably top 40% in undergrad (I know, stretching to say top anything at that point), and decided to attend a top 5 school with a partial tuition scholarship. I ended up being top 5% (possibly top 2%, unsure about cut-offs), and am fine employment-wise, but I definitely couldn’t have guessed that ex ante. I suppose what I am trying to say is that unless you tell someone knowledgeable about your decision to attend law school or are already a savvy consumer–does it even make a difference what numbers are posted by the schools themselves?
AIMS
That’s my point exactly. I can picture the EBT when one of these plaintiffs is asked about the research that went into their decision to attend these law schools. If they’re anything like you and me and almost everyone else I know who attended law school, they’d be lying to say they seriously looked into the numbers or bothered to read the fine print.
Homestar
Although I understand your situation is typical and is similar to that of many people I went to law school with and respect, I don’t understand why anyone would spend that much on a degree and not look at post-grad numbers. I certainly did and relied upon them. (Granted, all the news reports now would have scared me off, so the numbers would not have mattered to me in 2011. But in 2004-2005? Yes, the statistics mattered and people did look at them.)
Homestar
Alanna of Trebond, I just realized I might have sounded snarky. What I meant was that the integrity of the numbers matter, even if not all graduates look at them. The numbers are clearly designed to give students some assurances as to what they might be able to achieve after graduating. They are meant to be relied upon. Otherwise, why would US News want them and consider them a relevant factor in evaluating schools? Why would schools post them on the admissions portions of its website, if not to provide assurances to potential applicants?
The law schools can’t have it both ways (To court: “Oh, these, no one relies on these numbers. And there is no need for them to be accurate.” To young Homestar and other pre-law students: “Don’t worry about post-graduate employment. Look at these amazing statistics! Now pay us a bunch of money!”)
Blonde Lawyer
I absolutely relied on numbers. I also happen to know of one regional law school that is calling local law firms to see if they can hire any graduates for “temporary positions” to get them started and help them make contacts. Translation – employee them just long enough so we can count them reported.
Susan
Threadjack: Reminder NYC Gathering Tomorrow
Metropolitan Museum @ 3pm, meet at the Information Kiosk.
Email me at edna_mode_nyc@yahoo.com for questions/details/ideas
Back to our regularly scheduled program: Don’t love the pattern, but the blazer has a great cut. Glad there’s a coupon, too, as Lafayette148 stuff is always so expensive.
b23
Wait, y’all are meeting at 3:00 on a Wednesday to go to a museum? Maybe I need to move to New York after all.
Susan
We’d love to have you! You’d make NYC even more fun.
So, yeah, 3pm….Yay to “use it or lose it” vacation-day policies, I guess.
I know some folks want to do something really budget conscious, and the Met Museum is definitely budget-friendly. Would love to tack on food/drinks afterwards (6pm & later), but there aren’t too many budget-friendly NYC places, unless someone wants to make a suggestion!
hellskitchen
Can’t leave work until 5 unfortunately but would love to meet up for food/drinks afterwards. Any chance you could post location etc. once you decide where you are headed? If, so I’ll keep checking for updates tomm afternoon and try to meet you all wherever you are
metsfan4life
Subway Inn 61st & Lex!
metsfan4life
Er, was supposed to be a reply to Susan asking about budget-friendly NYC places…
Anon
Great pick, but maybe too loud if we want convo?
How about St Alp’s Teahouse – E Village. Bubble tea, lots of seating, and cheap appetizery eats for folks who are getting out of work and are hungry? (3rd ave x 9th)
TCFKAG
I wish I could be there.
Have a good sending off K-in-NYC soon to be Miami!!!!
Beach Bar
Not in NYC, but just had to comment that I love your e-mail address :)
Susan
Thanks, Beach Bar! Although I disagree with Edna Mode on the matter of capes… :-)
I like the Saint’s Alp Teahouse suggestion. Seating + food sounds good to me, as I like cheap eats and am always hungry.
When I’m ready to head over there, I’ll post a reminder and describe what I’m wearing so you can find me!
K in NYC
glad you posted this, I hadn’t known the info! (wouldn’t -that- have been embarrassing to have missed!)
Susan
Saint’s Alp Teahouse in the East Village is located at:
# 39 on 3rd ave, between 9th St & Bowery
In an earlier posting or email, I think I posted #9, because I can’t type. *headdesk*
Cat
PSA for black pointy-toed flats – as a better quality alternative to the J.Crew Viv, the “Suki” style is on sale for $88 (orig. $250) on the Delman website, with free shipping.
I have had a great experience with Delman’s quality – while their flats don’t have a ton of arch support, they have more structure than typical ballet flats. They were a key part of my wardrobe when I was traveling a ton – perfect for looking professional while keeping up with my male colleagues’ long airport strides.
fresh jd
They’re not as cute at the Viv =(
Circe
I’ll take not-quite-as-cute-but-more-comfortable any day, especially in flats.
AIMS
French Sole (or London Sole) — very cute and very comfortable.
I love the way Delman shoes look but they don’t work for my feet.
Susan
Agreed. Although I’d draw the line at Dover Sole. ;-)
Bonnie
I love Delman shoes. I didn’t realize they had their own website.
Anon NJ and MD Bar
I’m planing to take the NJ and MD bar exams in July. From my research, it’s possible since MD is offered July 24 and 25 and NJ of offered July 26. I am signed up to take Barbri, but I’m not sure if they have a good option for combining NJ and MD, as they do with NJ and NY. I’m open to other options such as Themis and Pieper, and I don’t want to pay 4,000 for a bar prep course especially if it is only online anyway. Does anyone have any experience with these other bar prep courses or with taking the MD and NJ bar exams? TIA
TCFKAG
I didn’t take NJ – MD together, but I took two adjoining states and I found that when you are taking a BarBri course in a location where this is common (say in South Jersey or probably in Baltimore/north MD) — they will be able to tell you the best way. For me, their advice was to mostly focus on the law for my primary bar (where I had a job) and then they told me when I needed to go down for a couple of classes in the other state that were almost certainly going to be essay questions in the other state. And then I studied state specific law from that other state for approximately 12 hours. It was pretty smooth.
Don’t have any experience with Themis or Pieper, sorry.
no more bar exams
I took MD and VA, not together. I had to take the MBE twice because MD wouldn’t accept the Virginia MBE score as VA does not send it through the National Conference of Bar Examiners, even though the VA score cutoff was higher than the MD score cutoff.
There was not a joint BarBri course for those. However, I can say from experience that the MD bar is significantly easier than the VA bar exam. I took the Virginia BarBri, which was helpful in teaching me how to study and how to pace myself, then just bought used MD Barbri books and found it much easier. I probably studied about 40 hours for the MD bar on my own, and it was more than enough. I don’t know anything about the NJ bar, but the MD bar was much, much easier than the VA bar.
Nickey
Not exactly on point, but…you don’t really need to prep for NJ. I did NY/NJ. For NJ, Barbri had maybe a half-hour lecture that was, “This is what the NJ bar consists of, and don’t bother studying.” In terms of studying, I read through the Barbri booklet once, and then the night before, stayed up cramming unnecessarily and unhelpfully. You don’t need to know substantive NJ law in order to pass; you can use MBE law or even state law (NY, MD, etc.) so long as you say, “The law is X; it applies as follows: Y.” The NJ day consists of, I think, seven essays on the six MBE topics plus NJ civil procedure, but again, you don’t really need to learn NJ civil procedure — there won’t be an entire question just on civil procedure, and as long as you say “the law is X” and then apply it, you will be fine. For me, NY felt terrible (I was sure I failed), and I took the train to NJ crying. But the NJ exam was surprisingly tolerable, and when I left, I felt pretty confident that I had passed. (The NJ bar was also written with a sense of humor — this was 2010, and the torts question was about a Japanese car with defective breaks, and the contracts question was about an oil spill in the Gulf, if I recall correctly.) In short, I am pretty sure that you can take the NJ bar without doing any sort of prep so long as you are ready for the MBE and can write decent essays. So no, I didn’t do MD-NJ, and I only did Barbri, but I would say that if Barbri lets you access its little NJ handbook for under $100 (I think that was the deal if you did NY-NJ — something like $60 back in 2010), you should be fine. And in any case, the best way to study for NJ is to study for the MBE.
With regard to Barbri in general, I felt okay for NY for the essays but terrible about the MBE. I have heard that Kaplan is much better in terms of MBE prep. I think if I were to do everything over again, I would do Kaplan (or a cheaper online equivalent, as several of my friends did, and they all passed), since I don’t think there’s anything particularly special about Barbri.
AIMS
Agree. I didn’t even do the NJ lecture and I passed with no problems. I just wrote, “In New Jersey, … ” and “Under New Jersey law….” for every essay and it was fine.
Just so you know though — NJ has a real pain in the a** application process, complete with fingerprinting, and ridiculously annoying bar requirements after. Unless you really think you’ll practice there, I would avoid. I seriously regret taking that state’s bar.
phillygirlruns
NJ has recently done away with ICLE – of course, not until after i’d gone through the two most annoying years, including full-saturday seminars and homework. NJ’s CLE requirements are now basically identical to its neighboring states (NY, PA).
agreed with what everyone else says regarding the substantive requirements for the NJ bar – you do not need to know NJ-specific law. the essay questions were open-ended and annoying (fact pattern, followed by “write the memo” – no specific questions to answer, just inviting your evaluation). i took NJ/PA and liked the structure that barbri gave, but i don’t think there’s anything magic about the curriculum.
JT
I must have been admitted the same year as phillygirlruns. Suffered through commuting from NYC to New Brunswick every Monday and Tuesday night for five consecutive weeks, and again the following year. Now I keep an eye out for CLE’s in the city that give NJ credit since the requirements are pretty similar.
As far as the bar goes, I took the NY Barbri course, then read the booklet in an IHOP with a friend the night before the Jersey bar. We spent maybe an hour total since it’s basically MBE essays, plus NJ Civil procedure which is pretty close to federal civil procedure, if I remember correctly.
themis review
I took Themis, but for different states. I passed one state and failed the other. I took themis because of the price and because I was told that they had exemplary personal service, and that you would be assigned a personal coach who would call you/stay on top of you if you fell behind. I don’t know if they are still telling people that, but it’s definitely not true. Other than that, i thought the materials were good, and a friend shared her barbri materials with me and I though Themis was definitely comparable. Some of the lectures were waaay too long and I found the themis shedule impossible to keep up with. Some of hte lecturers were really, really, awful too. Reading from notes in a dry monotone voice, etc. Others were good. So…to sum up, you get what you pay for and if you are smart/self-motivated, and remember a lot of what you learned in law school, themis will probably be good enough to help you pass.
CA lawyer
I used Themis in 2010 in CA and passed. It was great for me, apart from some bugs that I somewhat expected because it was so new. I didn’t use the personal tutor much, but I did write a bunch of the graded practice essays. I agree that it’s only for the self-motivated.
B
I did Themis in California in 2011 and passed. I was happy with it, overall. My essay grader was overly harsh, but it motivated me to work harder. I don’t consider myself particularly self-disciplined, and I found it easy to make myself do the daily assignments.
Anon NJ and MD Bar
Thank you all for the responses. I heard from those who took the NJ and NY that they studied for two months for NY and 1 day for NJ. I’m thrilled to avoid the NY. Now I’m just in the position of deciding the bar review course. Honestly, I am not a great self-motivator, but I’m a great procrastinator! I’m just debating between Themis and Barbri. I heard that they are both just videos of a lecturer rather than an actual person and if that is the case, then I figure I might as well use whichever is less expensive. Any opinions?
Bluejay
It must be Bluejay Finds Discouraging Articles day – here’s another one about a study of student loan debt (which takes into account Federal debt only): http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/06/business/study-finds-a-growing-student-debt-load.html?hpw
Bluejay
Actually I think it takes into account all loans – I misread the quote at the end. Still, pretty awful numbers.
TCFKAG
Student loans are the next housing bubble. No doubt.
What to do?
I fully appreciate the “if you’re borrowing >$200K for Cooley” and “student loans are the next housing bubble” lines of thought. And I am grateful that I had the grades and scores to attend a more highly ranked school, the ability and discipline to do well there, and the luck and fortitude to go into BigLaw and pay back my loan school loans within 4 years (I borrowed every last penny for law school and, in the mid-90s, that was $105K).
But . . . If you had teenage kids, what would you suggest they do for a living?
I don’t mean this in a a snarky way at all. I’ve read the reviews of Charles Murray’s “Class Matters,” I’ve seen President Obama’s State of the Union remarks that all Americans should get some form of post-high school education or training, I’ve seen Rick Santorum’s comments that the President is a snob because he wants all Americans to go to college, I read that NYT article a couple weeks ago “Even Critics of Safety Net Increasingly Depend on It” about middle and working class Americans who can’t provide for their families because they don’t have the education and/or training to do so, and I wonder and worry.
There seems to be no question that if you want to provide for yourself and your family, you need at least a college degree. But what if you can’t afford it? Can’t do the academics? Aren’t interested? Need to help take care of your multiple younger siblings? Come from a family where no one graduated from high school and never heard of college?
This idea of a permanent under-educated, under-trained class scares me. First, how do I make sure I don’t fall into it? (That may be my version of being scared of zombie attacks given my background.) How do I make sure my various younger half-siblings and step-kids don’t fall into it (no kids of my “own”)? What about the people who will fall into it? How do we help them? Do we even all agree that we *should* help them — either because it is the right thing to do to make their lives better? Or because if we help them take care of themselves, then we won’t have to take care of them. Or do some in our country (not me) think it is better to have a permanent underclass to do all our “dirty” work?
Not claiming to have any answers. Just find it all disturbing and wonder what others think about it.
b23
You ask some questions that are difficult, if not impossible, to answer. I will say, though, that I disagree with the statement that everyone needs a college degree. There is a whole class of small business owners that do really well without college degrees. Master plumbers can make six figures. Same with electricians and other similar jobs that some people look down on. I think our school system needs to start training people to do those sorts of jobs rather than pretending that everyone is going or should go to college. Plenty of people have very happy, successful lives without needing to know Shakespeare.
AIMS
I agree but that’s what makes Santorum’s comment all the more stupid. The state of the union speech didn’t propose everyone go to college, but that everyone needs some kind of post HS training – whether college or technical school or whatever. I think making high schools provide it could work too, the same way high schools can provide AP classes, but I think most people do need something. Germany is a very good model for this – they have specialized training for workers than is very practical and skills focused, and it doesn’t require anyone to memorize how many lines are in a sonnet.
b23
Yup, I agree with what POTUS said in his state of the union, I think. I certainly disagree with Santorum calling him a snob. I haven’t thought through all of the ramifications of every single person having post-HS education. It seems like the market would then be oversaturated. I’m not sure.
My only hesitation with high schools doing the training would be that kids could be classified early on, and I think there could be some socio-economic/racial issues that they don’t really have in Germany. In Germany, I think you’re classified pretty early, and it’s hard to change your classification. So there would be issues here of who does the classifying, how to change it, etc.
L
I think what Germany does well (having some family there who’s explained this to me) is there is a pipeline. You get a degree and/or training for something, you have an apprenticeship, and then you have the necessary education AND skills for a job. I think what this country lacks it allowing people to both. Frankly, my undergraduate degree was great on paper, but in my first job I had some practical skills (from working “not as hard” jobs) but not nearly as much as I thought I should have.
I think there are plenty of smart, hard-working, and driven people with and without degrees, who purse a career and not a job. What is concerning is the people who want to get out of a job and seek better education/training/etc and can’t because they would literally drown financially. Not everyone, even if they are afforded the opportunity wants to do more then be a clerk/bartender/cashier, but those who DO should be able to seize it.
That was a longer rant then I intended, sorry about that.
CA Atty
I strongly agree with this. And as someone who recently moved from a brand spanking new home to an older home, I would give my eyeteeth for some training in plumbing, electrical work, and especially, how to take care of engines! It sounds silly, and I do have it down for my car, but for all the tools and yard implements, you have oil, you have gas, you have propane, you have diesel, you have what I’m pretty sure is an oil gas mix? Maybe? Shakespeare, while wonderful and useful in the “learning how to think” category, hasn’t really taught me anything I’ve ever used in real life. Except maybe not to fall asleep in the woods and make fun of fairy queens…
Ruby
Agree, agree, agree with B23’s comment. The educated are actually quite uneducated about how much many without degrees make. Not all for sure, but I used to do labor/emplyoment law and boy o boy there are so many people making six figures or close to it in the skilled trades. They aren’t idiots by the way, either- they have very valuable special skills to fix things you can’t do, which is why they command hourly rates of $100+ per hour with four hour minimums. I know many personally and you can look up statistics on it- not fiction.
This line of thought about degrees is annoying. The country actually needs people in the trades for our society to run well. We really don’t need more gender studies majors or whatever.
Ruby
..and just to clarify that point– 4 hr minimums for a call out are the pay many tradepeople get for a task, even if it takes only 15 minutes. yes there is travel time but ‘professionals’ have that too and don’t get paid for it. So, @ $100/hr (obviously rates vary), more for certain ones, that could be $400 for less than a half- hour’s work- law firm partner rates. Sure, they’d need a steady stream of jobs to total out over a million a year, but I can tell you I’ve had numerous people refuse to do work in my home because they just didn’t feel like taking the job, had bigger jobs etc.
Anon for This
I also do labor and employment law, and I second this wholeheartedly. It’s obviously not across the board, but many of the plumbers, waiters, personal trainers, etc. that I represent make significantly more than the architects/dentists/teachers, etc. that I represent (including myself, in many instances). At the same time, if I was advising someone younger on how to give themselves the best chance at a financially stable future, I’d have them way the costs and benefits of the education. An english lit degree (which I have) may cost the same as an economics or computer programming or Arabic degree, but translate into significantly less earning potential. Same with a law degree from a first vs. third tier school. I chose (in 2004) to go to a lower-ranked top-tier school because it gave me a significantly larger scholarship than the higher ranked schools. I may have sacrificed some earning power, but I also saved 100-150K in debt.
non
I don’t think everyone needs a college degree – but many people may benefit from an associate degree, or some level of technical training. Should high schools being working to identify which path would be appropriate for students? Something along to systems that Europe does with its A-level exams (which I only have a vague understanding of how that works).
Do you know what one of the most in demand jobs is right now? Welders. And you don’t need to a 4 year college degree in order to be a welder. You do need some technical college instructional and certification, but you don’t need a 4 year engineering degree. Have you seen how much your mechanic makes an hour to fix your car?
How do we prevent a permanent under class? Give all work dignity. The fast food worker, the taxi driver, the retail clerk – may not be the most glamorous, influential and best paid job, but its a job and its going to support someone, and that should be respected.
Those are just some of my thoughts. :)
non
I think there is also an issue of people thinking they have to go to the “best” school they get admitted to (for undergrad), regardless of the cost. And that’s crap too. You go to the best school you can afford to, and a student or parent taking out a lot of loans is not “affording” that college. But a lot of first generation college-goers don’t have their parents’ experience to fall back on in figuring out how to decide what is affordable – and since college has changed a lot since the current crop of student’s parents went to college, their experiences are also out of date.
Em
You’re not wrong, but it’s also important that we address this issue as a society. Because the fact is that, on average, going to the best schools does give you more opportunities in life and kids from middle class and lower families shouldn’t be shut out of that. We shouldn’t let ourselves go back (even more than we already are) to a society where a liberal arts education is a luxury that only the rich can afford, and which serves to make their children richer and keep everyone else’s poor.
non
I’m talking good schools vs. “best” schools. If well-regarded State University is going to give me in-state tuition and a scholarship, that is more affordable than having to pay for Harvard. I don’t have to go to Harvard, just because I got in. Anyone that is going to have the wherewithal to make Harvard work for them, is also going to have the chops to make State University work for them. I was more addressing the fallacy of the “best” schools being the best choice for all the students they admit. There is more to the equation than the reputation of the school.
un-degreed jobs
Completely agree with this! My husband went to a state school, and ended up at the same company, with the same pay, with a bunch of Ivy league or top 10 schools. He’s gotten promotions, raises, etc. etc. with his free education (state school offered him a full scholarship, so only cost of living, which he’d have to pay anyways) as his peers that are in mounds of debt from top schools.
Nonny
I agree with non. I applied, and was accepted, to a number of universities after high school, and even got some very nice scholarship offers. But I chose to stay in my hometown, accept my scholarship offer from my relatively small university, and live with my parents during undergrad. The result was that when I completed undergrad, I had absolutely no debt. I went to a larger university for my law degree, and did end up with some debt, but it certainly wasn’t the biggest “name” law school I could have gone to. Yet I ended up working at Magic Circle firm in London. So I completely disagree with the concept that going to the “best” schools gives you more opportunities. It is all about getting the best possible grades wherever you go, and making your own opportunities through hard work and tenacity.
dancinglonghorn
I took out $20 k of loans for my undergrad to go to the best school in my state (as well as working 3 jobs). Now, I’m 25 and make a high-200K salary. No one in my family has ever finished high school before.
The problem is that middle-class people think that they are being pro-poor while supporting policies (like the one described) that would block poor people from ever advancing themselves. The fact is that for poor families, loans are a necessity.
Also, if I want to bet all my financial future (loans) on the possibility of elevating myself into an income bracket previously unattainable for me, who are you to say that I shouldn’t?
This is why I don’t have a problem with the law school admissions. Everyone who is qualified should have a shot of the American Dream and people should decide for themselves if that shot is worth it. Even if I had failed to “hit it big,” I am glad that I did not spend my life longing for a chance at middle-class and that I took a big gamble.
b23
I have to disagree that you went to the best state school in your state. I’m sure you can guess where I went to school. :)
anon
I completely agree with you, Non. I felt like all my efforts in high school would be a waste if I didn’t end up going to a highly ranked, prestigious college. I honestly thought my future would be limited if I didn’t get into a great school. This perspective was so wrong. I wish I had known that success does not equal prestige. For any corporettes who are moms, I hope you can help your kids to understand that too. Education is great, but it’s what you do with it that matters. It’s the connections you make. It’s how you apply it.
a.
Want some eye-popping employment and salary rates? Welders with advanced qualifications, like undersea welding and stuff like that. They make bank. It is my dream that all of my students (well, all the disenfranchised boys who hate school) will become welders or diesel mechanics, because those two careers will keep roofs over their heads, food on their tables, and are reasonably stable.
In our current economy, the overwhelming majority of people will benefit from some type of postsecondary education. This could be a Bachelor’s degree or an LPN certificate, it could be going to beauty school or on-the-job training as an electrician. Even in areas like manufacturing, where conventional wisdom holds there are no jobs, there are absolutely jobs–the workforce just doesn’t have the technical training to fill them.
Also, I could go on about this and related educational policy FOREVER, since this is basically what I do at my job all day, but I will cut myself off with this conclusion: I believe the best solution out there to all of these extremely thorny problems is funding to expand technical and vocational training at the high school and community college level.
Nonny
Agreed x100. Go a.!
CA Atty
YES. I saw part of some special on unusual jobs and undersea welding was amazing. Interesting and paid extremely well. If I weren’t 5’4 and 30 years old….
anon
“I believe the best solution out there to all of these extremely thorny problems is funding to expand technical and vocational training at the high school and community college level.”
THIS. In my state, funding for these programs went by the wayside long ago.
Ruby
Just a question for thought- why should those trainings be paid for by taxes, when law school etc is not? Not saying it isn’t a good use of funding, but a lot of these people do well and could invest some debt into their future as well. It’s interesting that people separate trades from professional degrees into ‘should be given’ vs. ‘should be paid for.’
a.
@Ruby–I’m not saying that people should be able to go to their local community college and get their RN without investing any money (unless they file all applicable financial aid forms and end up being fully Pell-eligible or something); the problem is that the CCs and high schools don’t have the money to offer these programs *at all,* or if they do, they only have the resources to serve a fraction of their qualified applicants. For example, the two-year RN program at the CC my high school feeds into gets hundreds of applications every year for twenty-odd slots. Some of those applicants don’t have the requisite qualifications–but many more do. The CC just doesn’t have the money to pay for teachers and lab space to educate them all. This is a problem.
TCFKAG
Also — there is currently an excess of supply of lawyers in the market while there is a lack of welders and nurses and the like. So if you’re going to be spending federal or state funds towards anything, it should be towards that kind of education.
Notalawyer
Funding in my state is pretty much gone for Community Colleges. Classes in technical/certificates/job prep are being cut back or eliminated. The only classes soon to be offered are those that lead to a degree and moving on to university.
Students can go to for-profits. But that leads to a huge loan debt. Again, leading to the same types of problems.
AT
One of my younger brothers is a welder. He never really liked school, and struggled with it, and pretty much tapped out all of the vocational classes at community college before he and my parents agreed he didn’t have to continue with his education. He is incredibly skilled in his field, and his skills are in demand. He also has his own custom business on the side, got married last year and largely supports his wife (and they’re both on his insurance), and they just bought a house. I’m so proud of him, and the man he has become! Meanwhile, I have a BA and a JD and worked in biglaw and then moved to Europe, and I am still effectively single (LD relationship), in my mid-30s, and have no idea what I want to be “when I grow up.” I think we’re both successes, but I know that not everyone thinks that (and that goes for both of us… our choices and outcomes “satisfy” different constituencies. Luckily, our family is awesome and proud of all of us).
Ruby
TCFKAG- not at all suggesting that we fund law schools… don’t get me started on that… promise. Just saying I think it’s odd that we seem to think white collar people should take on debts, but people in blue collar jobs who make as much or more many times (not big law, the majority of other lawyers) should be debt-free for some reason.
Has anyone else ever wondered when they watch Househunters International how all those random couples in the midwest can afford the $700,000 second homes on islands, Costa Rica, etc.? I knew some bellhops in NYC in a union who made $300,000 annually and each had second homes in the Caribbean. I’m not saying we shouldn’t fund these community programs, but I do think the professional class is a bit out of touch with some of this. A lot of college grads set themselves up for a worse situation at least in many initial years. We don’t necessarily have to feel sorry for and advocate for the supposed underclass. I realize these comments might sound controversial, but I really don’t think a lot of people have a clue how much many non-pedigreed people make. Agree there are issues about retirement savings and all that, but there is also something to be said for lifestyle- they get paid for every extra hour they work usually, unlike most of us.
Ruby
..just to note.. yes I know that for every waiter/plumber/welder etc making great cash, there are just as many people in dead-end jobs making minimum wage. different set of issues and more challenging.
ps, informal poll– how many of us are able now or foreseeably going to get a second vacation home? not me- i will be thrilled to pay off my primary mortgage someday. though i make a great living and can’t complain, the debts i took on 15 years ago for my education are around to stay and my income isn’t sky-high.
cc
We have this paradox now where a generation spent years saying you need an education, you don’t want to flip burgers for a living now do you. We treated trades and work you do with your hands as below us, the under class, what poor people do. Who has a more rewarding day, someone who has fixed a car or has stared at an excel sheet all day. Now to those without jobs we say “what are you to good to work for McDonalds? go get a job!”
un-degreed jobs
I completely understand your fear, but I will say that as I’ve gotten older, I’ve learned that there are well-paid professions the just require licensing or technical institutes. One of our friends is an electrician, and he makes good money, and he’s much happier than when he was in college. I’m in the aviation/aerospace industry, and there’s actually concerns about a shortage for mechanics and technician’s, because today’s youth are all trying to go to college. As someone working on a graduate degree, married to an engineer with graduate education, we’re clearly biased towards getting the piece of paper! However, I know several friends that tried college, failed miserably at it, and are now on a blue-collar path that is affording them decent pay, growth opportunities, and the chance to actually enjoy being a productive member of society. We still need “non-thinking” jobs (not to say they don’t think, but basically working with their hands more than working with their minds), and I think that realizing you aren’t meant for academics/cubicle life early on would be best. You don’t waste tuition and years gaining experience. I will admit that this would be very hard for me to stomach if my children (non-existent at this point) came to me and said they didn’t want to attend college and go into a white-collar profession, but I have seen it benefit enough people that I am trying to figure out how to accept that decision if my future kids choose that path.
un-degreed jobs
Ack! Typo, should read “technicians” without the apostrophe!
Ruby
Yes, my huge company that manufacturers things in the US- rare- is already facing a major shortage of skilled mechanics (engineers too). The country can’t run on a bunch of textbooks.
TCFKAG
Ruby — I think you just answered your own question as to why federal and state funds should go to paying for these type of training programs.
anon
I think we have to get out of class snobbery. I came from a solidly middle class home, and I became a lawyer because I was really good at – and really enjoyed – drafting documents and reading documents which were mind-numbing to others.
I don’t think you need a college degree – I think you need a plan, and realistic employment numbers and realistic salary numbers, and something you’re passionate about.
Most of my friends growing up, from a public high school in a rural, middle-income area went into more traditional ‘working class’ jobs. What I find interesting is that there’s a real gender difference – without exception, all of my female high school friends (think administrative assistant, elementary teacher) make less than me. Nearly all of my male friends from high school (mechanic, brick mason, HVAC, landscaping and turf) make more than me. I don’t know exactly what to make of the effect of gender on working jobs vs. professional jobs.
What to do?
Maybe the more interesting question is why did all your female HS friends choose to become admin assistants and teachers instead of mechanics, brick masons, HVAC technicians etc. (Not picking on your friends, just using the example.)
When I am feeling especially paranoid, I think it is because our society trains women to want those “pink” jobs so that women will never have enough economic independence to cause problems by not marrying, not staying married to abusive husbands, having enough time and energy to be part of the public discourse etc. In my more magnanimous moments, I think that “pink” jobs are more realistic than BigLaw because it allows at least one parent to really parent the kids and create strong, healthy individuals to be the next generation. In my more solution-oriented moments, I think that we need better child care options so that women can do “boy” jobs AND kids can be raised properly to be the next generation.
Then I get tired and have a glass of wine :)
TCFKAG
Its not just that we train them, its that there’s a very real glass ceiling (or whatever) in trade for women. The plumber who did work on our house teaches plumbing at the local plumbing school and he said he has had some fantastic female plumbing students and has had the hardest time helping them get jobs because people just don’t want to hire female plumbers. They’re just not interested. It was an enlightening (and depressing) conversation.
un-degreed jobs
Slight devil’s advocate, as I tend to be pretty progressive and have a pretty progressive husband, but some of it is due to physical ability. I’m pretty strong for my size, but the fact of the matter is that most men can lift more than I can with proportionally less effort. My husband just had to do some brick work at our rental property, and he asked two of his strong friends to join him. All three of them struggled to remove the brick arches. He’d originally asked me to help, and after the issues he experienced with this strong friends, he confirmed there would be no way I could’ve helped him effectively with the job (again, he thinks I’m strong enough to ask for my help in the first place, so he was belittling me, just stating the facts.) So, the women probably chose “pink” jobs with some level of practicality in mind that they’d have a hard time doing brick work/HVAC work. Mechanics, on the other hand, could benefit from a woman’s thinner, more nimble fingers! (in general, I know it’s a stereotype).
Bluejay
I dunno. A good admin assistant is worth her weight in gold, and an office manager or executive assistant can easily make as much as an experienced mechanic or electrician. I think we as a society need to recognize these “pink” jobs for what they are – skilled labor and highly necessary – rather than trying to get more women into other, male-dominated fields.
Nonny
I’ve said on here before that if I had to do it all again, I’d become an electrician. But I don’t necessarily think that women are trained to want “pink” jobs. TCFKAG is right in that there is a glass ceiling of sorts. One of the brightest, most charismatic young women I know is a refrigeration technician. She makes a fantastic salary and loves her job. She was also the only woman in her technical program and is the only female technician in her company. But she has expressed to me before that she really doesn’t know what she will do if she becomes pregnant (which is something she and her boyfriend are considering). Her job requires to do a lot of heavy lifting and be exposed to leaking chemicals. She does not want to expose an unborn baby to those variables. So what will she do if she decides to have a baby? She thinks there is a real risk that she will either be forced to move to her company’s administrative office, or have to leave the career that she loves.
Eleanor
These are all really good points. We hear about how college is so expensive, and loans are a huge burden, and students don’t learn much in college anyway (just saw an article about this). Then, *at the very same time* we hear about how it’s impossible to stay in the middle class without a college degree. And all this doesn’t even get at the fact that some people are unlikely to make it through college, given their upbringing, temperament, skills, and/or preferences.
This does leave people with little education, or poor education, few options. It seems crazy to take out so much debt to go to Cooley, but if my alternative were to work at a really boring, low-skill, low-paying job, I might be tempted to temporarily ignore the consequences, too.
a.
There are middle paths, to remaining in the middle class, though–it isn’t boring, low-skill, low-paying job vs. thousands of dollars in debt for a degree of dubious value. To go back to welding, a couple of months ago I met with a kid who had a very low GPA, who I’m sure plenty of people would go all, “He is doomed to continue the cycle of poverty!” towards. But he had finished Welding II with an A, and was going back for an additional year to be the welding teacher’s assistant. He loved it because it let him do something physical, where he could touch things with his hands. If he keeps going through all of the certifications he currently plans on getting, he will almost certainly make more money each year than I do, and have a lower chance of being unemployed. He will thus be well-compensated for a job he loves, without ever setting foot in a college classroom. It’s all about connecting students with the option that’s right for their individual interests and skills. Unfortunately, community colleges don’t have the funding for programs that will make up the gap for the large number of people who didn’t have access to vocational training in high school, or didn’t realize how important it was.
Oh my lord, I need to shove a sock in it and get back to work.
anon
I disagree that the only way to provide for your family is by obtaining a college degree. Many jobs that pay very well don’t require college, although they do require training (electrician, plumber, hvac). There are companies you can start in at the bottom and have a realistic chance of working your way up, like UPS. I’m not saying it’s not good to get a college degree, just that I would not push a teenager into college if they truly weren’t suited for it, and wanted to do something else. There are alternatives, and running up thousands of dollars in debt is not always the best option. I speak from experience, since I have a college age son who did not want to go to college. I encouraged him to look at all of the alternatives I listed. At this point, he’s unsure, and is taking a few community college courses while working in fast food, trying to figure out what he wants to do. Not my dream for him, but I’m not going to tell him college is the only route to happiness and financial well-being in this country.
Beach Bar
I think it’s also kind of silly how many jobs “require” a college degree nowadays, when it’s not functionally necessary to perform the job duties. I get that the job market is competitive and the people doing the hiring can demand the top of the pool, but it’s just dangerous to raise the bar and have many traditionally blue-collar-accessible jobs to now require someone to have spent four years studying philosophy or “international studies.”
I look at my high school friends from a blue-collar small town where a lot of people didn’t go to college, and they have decent jobs, no debt, and happy families that they were able to start at 25. And they seem to have a lot more fun with life than I’m having with my $200k student loans that I incurred while studying for 8 years of undergrad/postgrad and now pay off with a 10+ hour day job, while they spent those years (and still are) enjoying weeknights out at the local bar and weekends drinking in the backyard. I’m not sure why society thinks they should’ve done it my way. I kind of wish I hadn’t.
dancinglonghorn
The don’t require a college degree because they need one (demand-effect) they require one because its a way to restrict the number of applicants to high-quality applicants. (Supply-effect).
If people didn’t have college degree, they would have no shot at those positions, whether the positions “needed” a degree or not. Also, approximately 60-70% of Americans now has a college degree. Why would I hire the 40% when I as an employer would get a 60%-er who works for the same wage?
a.
Dancinglonghorn, where did you get the statistic that 60-70% of Americans have college degrees? The 2010 census says 28%.
TCFKAG
If you want to make good money in NE and don’t mind hard labor, become a stone mason. There are NONE of them and you have no idea how hard it is to find one when you need one…like when your wall is falling over and your home insurance is going to cancel you if you (just for example…not that I know anyone that happened to). Its not a popular trade, but there are stone walls all over the place up here! :-)
But seriously, I think that we need to get past this mindset where anything that’s not a traditional office job is considered lesser somehow. I’m personally more impressed by people with “real” skills — even if those skills are acquired through non-four year programs. My mother (a social worker who works with many kids who definitely wouldn’t survive the traditional “four year” path) frequently guides them towards community colleges and technical schools because it just makes more sense for them. But she also warns them about the very high cost schools (like ITT or on-line schools) that encourage students to take high debt loads without necessarily any way to pay them off.
Nothing annoys me more than the girl from Education Connection — I would punch her in the face if I could.
a.
Proprietary schools–! Oh my lord. Don’t even get me started. Just don’t even get me started.
dancinglonghorn
What about the fact that, in a generation where over half of us will live to be over 100, stone masons retire 30-40 years before white-collar workers? What about health insurance- I don’t want the risk of private coverage but instead want the nice middle-class group policies.
Prestige may affect middle-class children career choices…not lower class children. Bottom line: there are no stone masons because its a really hard job with really crappy lifestyle implications = the wage is high because what you earn in the first 40 years of your career must stretch over the last 40 years of your career. (like stripping ! :) )
TCFKAG
Well, in Mass. we have state run insurance available, but I see your point. I think the ultimate goal, though, is to start a masonry business that can continue making you money after you physically can’t do it anymore by training minions. :-)
Bluejay
“If you had teenage kids, what would you suggest they do for a living?”
Medical school. :)
Just kidding. I don’t have teenage kids, but I do have undergraduate and graduate student interns who often have taken this internshp because they’re contemplating law school. With few exceptions, I generally tell them to apply for semi-volunteer international service programs like the Peace Corps (I work in an interntional field). These are bright young people who can get into those programs, and that experience will help them get a job in our field and will let them tap into an impressive “alumni” network of returned volunteers. Plus, they get special loan deferment and many schools will give them a special scholarship if they do decide to pursue law school later. And whatever they do, they’ll be three years older and will have the perspective gained from working full-time for several years in a developing country. I think the same would apply to domestic programs like Teach for America or Americorps – one of my cousins recently completed CityYear and it was a great experience for her.
I also disagree that everyone needs a college degree. Among my cousins and friends who have not gone to college, many have had moderate career success starting in retail and working up to management; waiting tables and working up to a high-end restaurant; and getting a fitness teacher certification and working up to having their own clients and setting their own schedules, or even owning their own business. Frankly, my fancy-restaurant waitress cousin makes more as a fancy-restaurant waitress than I do as a public interest lawyer. I’m sure I enjoy my job more than she does, but she knew she wasn’t cut out for college and a white collar career, and she enjoys having money.
There are also several college-education-required fields that continue to have good career prospects, like nursing, physical therapy, education, engineering, and computer science. People who learn skilled trades like plumbers, electricians, etc also have good career prospects.
b23
I know you’re kidding, but I want to throw out there that medical school is not the answer either. They’re having similar problems, although not as extreme, as lawyers. Their rates are getting cut massively by Medicare, so all of the private insurance companies follow suit. Plus, they have four years of school rather than three, and then three to six or more years of making crap money and working their arses off, all the while seeing starting salaries decrease, particularly in large cities. I know some extremely well-qualified doctors in Houston who have been unable to find jobs in the city and have to work up to an hour and a half outside of town in some podunk place because there are no openings.
So we’re not the only ones. :)
Bluejay
I know – that was my joke. Take out $400K in loans instead of $200K and make 40K as a resident until you’re 35! What could go wrong? :)
JessC
@Bluejay – I know a few people that did that. And THEN went to law school. Seriously. I graduated with at least one (and I know there were a few more at my school though). Went to med school. Went through the whole internship/residency thing. Had a medical practice. Then one day decided that wasn’t enough and then went to law school.
I call those people f&%$ing nuts.
mamabear
I would and do encourage my near-teen children to pay particular attention to math and science. It is easier to differentiate and distinguish yourself in areas like these that many other students find too difficult. I am confident there will be plenty of satisfying careers opportunities in technical fields in their lifetimes.
It’s wonderful if you’re good at literature or art – that makes you a well rounded and interesting person – but do not plan a career around your interests because the odds are against you succeeding. Plan a career around something that challenges you intellectually, and, as they say, you’ll never “work” a day in your life.
CA Atty
YES. I actually really enjoy math and science but it was not emphasized in my education at all. Which is partly my own fault, I wasn’t a particularly driven teenager except for sports. I ended up with a D in chemistry in college, re-took the class and worked my way up to an A, but used the opportunity in school to get out of math/science all together. I really really regret it now and frequently think that if I win the lottery I might go back to college, get a BS, and see what really turns me on. Not that being a lawyer doesn’t, my new job is intellectually challenging, but I certainly don’t feel very useful. Any one of a million lawyers could do what I do. My only saving grace is that I work to try to get school districts more money/better programs/better teachers, etc…so at least I’m maybe contributing in a small way to youth in my community?
Miriam
I’m about to graduate law school and I am extremely jealous of my neighbor who does plumbing, heating, and air conditioning, or at least that is what I think he does. He lives comfortably with a wife and 9 month old. His wife only works 30 hours a week. If I knew of another field to go into I would do in in a heartbeat. Plus, I only have about 25k in loans so I have the option, but my parents would probably kill me since they paid for college and law school.
momentsofabsurdity
Threadjack –
Do I have a duty to bring up with my boss that the way he was paying me a couple years ago (I started as an intern, and was paid as an independent contractor) was likely illegal or at least in a legal gray zone? I did not have control over either my hours or place of work (9-5, in the office was expected) and the work done was core company work, not an individual project. I have never heard of companies classifying interns as independent contractors before, and it created a huge headache for me.
I have no intention of suing or making an issue of it re: my own employment , but it’s a practice that continues with interns since I started here. I find it the policy ridiculous, but maybe that’s because I suffered the consequences of it, and research into it shows it’s likely illegal, or at least legally “grey” and probably not something we should be doing. Do I have a duty to mention this to my boss and if so, how should I do it?
momentsofabsurdity
Should clarify – I am now an employee and paid as one, so this is not longer directly relevant to me at all, except on principle.
TCFKAG
Are you an attorney? Are they still employing interns and paying them in this manner?
If the answer to both those questions are yes — then I think you may have an ethical duty to tell them that you think they are exposing themselves to legal liability.
Otherwise, I think you are treading into areas that are more sensitive and in which you’re not necessarily an expert. I guess it would depend on your relationship with your boss.
momentsofabsurdity
I am not an attorney. They are still employing interns and paying them in this manner. I am definitely not an expert on this matter, but have done some research into it.
I am worried about us exposing ourselves to liability, and my relationship with my boss is strong. I could bring it up but I’m unsure if it’s my place at all and if I can do it in such a way that I don’t sound like I’m complaining.
Susan
Do you like your job and want to keep working there?
If you do, then I have to ask: did your boss do (and continue) this possibly illegal practice out of ignorance or out of a willful intention towards illegality?
If the boss doesn’t know, he may (or may not) appreciate being informed. If he knows and is benefiting (or the company is benefiting) in some way from it, he might see you as a troublesome whistleblower to be eliminated.
momentsofabsurdity
I do like my job and definitely want to keep working there. I think it is out of ignorance – I honestly thinks he sees this as a quick/easy way to save money/paperwork and has never looked into the legality of it. However, I don’t know how to bring it up or if it’s even my place to do so.
KS
What consequences did you suffer?
momentsofabsurdity
I was fresh out of college and had never really filed taxes before – a position many interns I think are in. I did not understand the requirements re: quarterly tax filings for contractors, and got hit with major penalties. I had never worked as an independent contractor before and to be totally honest, didn’t really understand my new hire paperwork or that there even really was a difference. I had never made enough to be taxed before (had always been a full time student and made under the lower limit for taxation) so the whole thing was a really confusing mess for me.
Ultimately my responsibility to handle, I understand – but I was young and did NOT have my own business, and had never looked into the legalities and tax implications of one. I think the policy does hurt interns, most of whom I presume are in similar positions to me.
Anonynon
Although you have a strong relationship with him/her, there’s a good chance he/she won’t appreciate legal advice from you – especially when you’re not 100% sure if it’s illegal.
Diana Barry
It’s definitely not legal – interns need to be paid as employees if they’re doing “core” company work or however the FLSA words it.
But, if you are not an attorney – think about what you and the company would get out of reporting it. Would the company go under? Would your boss get in trouble with the higher-ups (if there are any)? Would you have to do more work if they didn’t hire interns? Etc.
If it is a big enough deal to you that you would rather find another job than continue to work there while the interns are being paid as independent contractors, then I would report it and also look for a new job (and maybe look for the new job first, then report it). If not, then keep the status quo.
TCFKAG
They don’t necessarily need to report it — but at the very least they could quietly switch the next round of interns over to the proper pay scale and hopefully mitigate future damages.
The company would also then be aware of the potential for legal liability if anyone does sue, whether in class action or individually.
I don’t know — if you have a strong relationship with your boss and you’re REALLY not interested in suing, I MIGHT sit down with them over coffee and express your concerns as congenially as possible. But its still something of a risk. Emphasize that you’re worried about the company, not for yourself “of course”.
non
They wouldn’t even have to necessarily sue the company. If an employee feels they are mis-classified, they can file a Form SS-8 with the IRS for a consideration of classification. If the IRS finds they are an employee and not an independent contractor, they’ll pretty much just present the employer with a bill and say you owe us back taxes and penalties. And then you might be looking at an audit.
But agree with the poster that suggested you at least change policies going forward.
momentsofabsurdity
Oh, it would not be my suggestion that we report it (though I know we could) — but at least that we change the policy moving forward, so other interns are treated fairly under the law.
Eleanor
If you’re not working in compliance or something, I doubt you have a ‘duty’ to bring it up with your boss, although you might reasonably feel as though you have a moral duty. If you do want to, or feel you should, you could always keep it casual and say something offhand, like that you recently read an article about how the practice might be illegal (if this is true). If you say it in a tone like you’re just being helpful and calling his/her attention to something s/he might not have noticed, and leave it to your boss to follow up or not, it seems less likely to cause negative repercussions for you.
TCFKAG
This. If you DO decide to call it to his attention, make sure to focus on the effects it could have on the COMPANY and not on the interns. So don’t focus on “we aren’t paying the interns enough” but instead “we could be sued or subject to substantial liability from the state!”
Also — do you have an in-house counsel. If so, maybe send them an e-mail or swing by their office and have this discussion instead of with your boss?
Anonnc
No email!
TCFKAG
Oh yeah… NO EMAIL!!!!!!!!
Eloise Speghetti
I do not think you have a duty. The best way to come across with it is by happenstance. “Geesh, I noticed that XYZ co. got busted or my friend Eloise S.’s company got in trouble and I thought I would let you know.”
From a legal standpoint, it is illegal to do so under FLSA and if they are injured on the job, the employer is still going to get hit on their Workers’ comp coverage if the worker can prove it was more of an employee relationship than an employer relationship.
That being said I have been the siren on an issue that I thought was a problem ONLY to let the higher ups fix it. Instead, it completely backfired and the person who would have been able to file a suit (here current interns) were given a talk saying I reported them as looking into a lawsuit for the problem.
Maybe you just give HR the heads up to tell interns to be careful that filing as an IC is different or even tell the interns yourself.
Kate
Is anyone having trouble with the links? This week when I try to click on any links to the outfits, it won’t work. I get things like http://rstyle.me/gdhyinbree and my browser can’t find the page.
Bluejay
Your work probably blocks referral links – Kat (like most bloggers) links to products via sites that allow her to collect some payment because you clicked on them.
Kate
Thank you for explaining! I don’t mind the referral but didn’t realize that was the problem. I’ll bookmark to look at home :)
ChocCityB&R
2 part Question for the makeup experts:
My upper lip is significantly darker than my lower lip, and the skin on my lower lip near the opening of my mouth is very thin (i.e. very pink and often moist so no way to get color to stick to it). I never cared much because I don’t wear makeup, but now that I plan to start I have no idea how to apply lip color to my lips. Should I be adding a primer to even the color and make it stay put? Should I be using stains instead of sticks or gloss instead of…something other than gloss? If so do you have recommendations? Or are my lips not designed for color and I should just stick to blush and mascara?
Second question: when and how did you decide it was time to start wearing makeup. I’m 30 years old and have never done it, and my decision was made when looking at some recent photographs where I looked washed out and old for the first time (or at least I saw it that way for the first time). When I look at my face in the mirror I think it looks fine, but I’m starting to not trust my reflection as much (is this crazy) and rely instead on those scary scary photos.
locomotive
I started wearing it regularly at 22 when I realized all the women at my first job wore some sort of makeup and it makes them look more ‘put together’ regardless of their age. I generally just use a little blush, brown eyeliner (not as harsh looking as black for paler people), and nude shimmery lipstick. It just makes me look more polished. In college I only wore makeup to go out.
And I’d highly recommend tarte stain for lips, looks natural and then as long as your lips are moisturized with chapstick they look great! I hate gloss too because it’s so sticky for me most of the time. And my hair gets caught in it sometimes just from moving and its terrible!
ChocCityB&R
Thanks for your recommendation locomotive, I’ll stop by sephora today to test it out.
Houda
Hi,
I am biracial of black descent and have the case of two-tone lips.
For make up, what I do is when I am applying foundation, I go over the upper lip but not the lower one.
I wear moisturizing lipstick (Lancôme) and instead of slathering with the stick itself, I just gently dab from the middle to the side of the lip and dab again with my index finger. This gives bitten lips effect.
I also make sure to put extra moisturizing lip balm at night and you might want to do a gentle scrub every couple weeks.
One extra tip in case you are biracial, you might have darker skin around your mouth, you should use concealer in that area same as you would do for under-eye darkness.
On why I started wearing makeup: I am in my mid-twenties and look like a teen.
I have had many attempts at having a more put together look but it does not last long.
I recently was very disappointed professionally and decided to change at once.
I went to MAC store and started getting a couple items every month. I have started using eye shadows and I cannot describe enough how my perception at the office has changed.
At first, I got the usual comments “important meeting today?” “oh you look so nice! what’s going on?” etc. and eventually everybody got used to my made up face.
Now even if I am too tired or late in the morning, I have my makeup bag with me and go to a ladies room to get my make up done at work.
Bluejay
Not biracial, but I agree with Houda re. putting foundation on lips – I just put some of my mineral powder on my lips and it helps my lipstick go on smoothly and stay on longer. And I also dab my lipstick on like she does.
If you go to a good makeup counter, they should be able to help you figure out how to put on your lipstick to make it look even. I really like MAC lipsticks and their sales clerks are usually very well trained makeup artists, so I’d suggest starting there.
ChocCityB&R
Bluejay, I am heading to the MAC counter this afternoon, thanks for the tip. I should already know this since my best friend is a MAC makeup artist and her makeup always looks AMAZING.
ChocCityB&R
Houda, this is fantastic advice. I’m Af Am, and I’ve noticed the darker upper lip thing is more prominent in Af Am people. Random question since you are an expert–typically how often must you reapply lipstick? I find mine lasts 20 seconds, and I think in part it’s because I eat it off (which I’ll train myself to stop doing eventually) and in part because that’s how lip color works. I imagine this is why women are constantly in the bathroom reapplying.
Salit-a-gator
Threadjack: What do you think about the shirt dress linked below. I think it’s cute, but I’m on the fence about whether it’s office approprite. I’m thinking of styling it with a navy blue blazer and some nude-for-me pumps. For reference, I’m a associate at a midsize southern firm with a business casual dress code and jean Fridays. Verdict?
http://www.landsend.com/pp/womens-pattern-34-sleeve-shirtdress~234797_59.html?bcc=y&action=order_more&sku_0=::ZR8&CM_MERCH=IDX_women-_-spring-dress-diaries&origin=index
AnonInfinity
This would not fly at my firm, but yours sounds a little more casual than mine.
Bluejay
Holy crap I LOVE this dress. But I only would wear it on days when jeans are ok – it seems very casual. It would be wonderful for spring and summer weekends.
RRugosa
Not for work.
TCFKAG
I would love this dress for flouncing around the Hamptons or Cape Cod in the summer, drinking mojitos and eating lobster while visiting all the beautiful people and perhaps plotting revenge on them for killing my father.
But for work….maybe not. But you are in the south, things are different there I am led to understand.
cc
I agree that this is a dress for flouncing and revenge getting, not for work.
Salit-a-gator
Thank you everyone for the input. You helped me realize that I should listen to my gut -if in doubt, it’s not work appropriate. Not sure if I have the type of lifestyle this dress deserves….I think it needs a proper home with someone with a house in the Hamptons that has mad flouncing skills.
eek
Did you read the go fug yourself recap of last week’s Revenge? Love the captions.
Cute dress!
TCFKAG
You know I did! It was funny. I loved the part about the dress with the red dots “Nothing says you’re happy your son is getting married like a dress that looks like it has blood stains.”
Anon
Love! It’s so cute, and I’d wear this in a heartbeat. Just, not to my office, where it wouldn’t be appropriate.
anon in tejas
this would fly at my office, and you’d probably get compliments. in fact, this would be okay for client meetings (with heels and cardigan) and likely same okay for court.
lucy stone
I think it’d be totally fine for work in that type of atmosphere, but I am apparently in the minority. :(
ABC
I go back to work from maternity leave soon and could use some advice, or at least hear some war stories, from other professional parents so that I have some idea of what I’m getting myself into. I have a wonderful childcare situation worked out (my father, the hero) and feel some of the garden variety guilt, but more so, I feel an incredible sadness that I won’t be with her.
How did you handle the transition? I’m a third year associate at a pretty flexible firm, but I’m looking to stay on an upward trajectory at work. I’m going back part time for a few weeks, then to full time. My plan is to get to work super early and leave early (which my firm is fine with), though I probably will not see her at all in the morning since she is an amazing sleeper and sleeps straight through from 7 p.m. to 6 a.m. (… does this happen for anyone else, and how do you handle it, since I think I’ll be pretty bummed to only see her at night…?)
Does anyone have any nice routines that enable them to stay in contact with home? I was thinking something along of the lines of some discreet skyping once a day, or maybe leaving at noon one day a week with makeup work time on early weekends, but I’d love to hear more ideas for how to balance being a lawyer and parent to a baby.
And any advice for responding to the nosy/rude questions (i.e., Are you nursing?; Don’t you feel guilty about [fill in blank]?) would be very much appreciated. I am somewhat introverted and prefer to either dodge the question or answer blandly, but I tend to resent the asker for putting me on the spot (so I’d rather have a canned response to reduce the chance that I give the asker a Look) or I’d answer “too” honestly (“No, I stopped breastfeeding at 6 weeks”) in ways that I don’t think are appropriate for the office, or may impliedly criticize another woman’s choices (which is the LAST thing I want to do). Ugh.
I appreciate any ideas!
JessC
I have a few friends that have video baby monitors. I don’t know the brands, but one of my friends is able to watch the video feed on her iphone. That may be able to help with not being able to see her.
Bunkster
My brother and his wife have the same app. Last night she and I had drinks in the kitchen and could watch the baby sleeping in his crib. My brother was in SF on business and checked in on the baby periodically with the app.
I think it’s basically just a url. He told me he could send it to me. I have a droid.
ABC
Ahhh, I didn’t think the video monitor would be for me, but now I see how that would fit into my life. Thanks!
Diana Barry
How much time did you take off? I would have different advice based on if baby is 3 months or 6 months, etc.
Can you work at home at all, or is in-the-office time really important for your firm? With kid #2 I was only able to take off 3 months, and the next 3 months I worked at home 2 days a week (I am at 80% time), which was really helpful – baby took his naps next to me, I fed him and played with him, etc., then got more work done in the evenings when he was asleep. It helped me feel really connected with him even though I had to work.
Also, my firm is not super big on face time, as long as I am available – so I limit my in-office time to 9 to 430 or 5 and then do more work in the evenings as needed. I find that setting clear expectations, keeping your cell phone with you at home, etc. (and your secretary can help with this if s/he is good) about where you are/times you’re working, etc., can really help.
I found people didn’t ask me many questions at all, except was the baby sleeping. I tried to be very neutral in responses to my friends who asked – in my situation, I pumped at work until 15 months, so people prob thought that was a little odd, but my matter-of-fact response would shut down any further inquiries.
ABC
Ugh, I responded below and it won’t let me repost here…
AppealingLawyer
I have been working since my first child was 4 months old (she’s almost 3 now). There is no remedy to missing your kids while you’re away or feeling like you’re missing some moments–at least none that I have found. I just keep reminding myself that my career is enormously helpful to my kids and my family. I think it’s also helpful to make pros/cons lists so you can really weigh if you’re doing the right thing.
As far as responding to inappropriate questions, I find that asking, “Why do you ask?” is a good comeback. It sort of hints to the asker that it’s an inappropriate question without saying that explicitly. For men who ask if you feel guilty or how you’re handling everything, I would just flip it on them in a nonconfrontational way. Like: “I’m adjusting to coming back to work. How did you handle [feeling of guilt, etc.] when your child was born?”
I also stand by the advice I received once a long time ago: You can have it all. Just not at the same time.
ABC
I appreciate what you’ve said — that there is “no remedy to missing your kids while you’re away.” I’m in (what I perceive to be) a weird middle ground where I make more than my husband, but we could live off his salary alone — but the fact of the matter is that I WANT to return to work full time. I think that puts me in an uncomfortable position of not blaming some external force for returning to work! This one is all on me.
I do have some delusion here though — on advice, I have asked my father not to tell me what new milestones she’s reached. I’d rather hear her say her first words and live in the delusion that those were indeed her “first” words… :-(
AppealingLawyer
You’re not in an odd position. I know lots of women (myself included) who make more than their husbands but could live off of one salary. I work because doing so allows my family a higher standard of living, we have no debt, we’ve funded our kids’ college education, etc. etc. All things we couldn’t do on one salary. Plus, my career is on a growth path whereas the industry my husband is in does not seem to be on the same trajectory. The idea of living on one salary and losing it would make me crazy.
Don’t let someone make you feel guilty because you don’t “have” to work. Doing so ends up contributing to your family’s bottom line.
There are lots of good concrete tips below for managing the juggle….here are the few I live by:
-I’m glad I hired a nanny as opposed to day care. I’m not a morning person and the idea of trying to get 2 kids out on a snowy day at 6 am makes me shudder. Plus, our nanny does a lot of stuff to keep our house running smoothly (e.g., grocery shopping, kids’ laundry, etc). If you can swing it, hire someone you trust and go the nanny route.
-Get a cleaning lady. I’d rather spend time with my kids than washing the floor.
-Try to work at home if feasbile. I do 2 days a week at home and just the time I save in commuting is priceless. Plus, then I get to pop in and out of the kids’ day as I have time. Sometimes I’ll do a feeding, rock one to sleep, etc.
-I’ve started sneaking more general activity into my day because I have no time to exercise. Now I’ll try to walk the mile to/from the train instead of cabbing it because I know I need to take care of my own health somewhere and that’s a small thing to carve out.
– I have to let some things go. I wish my kids ate organic, home-cooked meals 3 times a day. They don’t. Most days we have to do takeout or a quickie dinner. I wish it were not that way, but it is. I decided to accept it when I knew it was not going to be something I had the time or energy to easily change.
ANP
First, big hugs and empathy coming your way! Life transitions are always challenging, and of course this one will be a bit of a juggle. Deep breaths. When I felt really overwhelmed with new working mom stuff, it helped me to simply take days one at a time. Boring, but it sometimes works if you just focus on tomorrow.
I second the idea of a video monitor or feed. I think Skyping during the day may be challenging for your kiddo as s/he gets older and can recognize you and thinks “WTH, why isn’t mom home with me right now?” As for noon visits, YMMV but we found lunchtime drop-ins to be challenging; our daughter always wanted to come home with us vs. being left with her care provider for the rest of the day (whether that was Grandma, who’s her All Time Favorite Person Ever, or at daycare).
I personally cannot work at home when I’m in charge of a child, but again: YMMV. It sounds as though Diana Barry was able to do so, and everyone’s different! I find it easier to have her in daycare (even if it’s just a half-day), crank out my work, and then give my full attention to my daughter when we’re together. This has become even more the case since she entered toddler-dom, but I’ve pretty much always operated this way.
One thing that really helped me (and it sounds stupidly simplistic) was to have a job that I Loved-with-a-capital-L. LOVED. You have to like what you’re doing if it’s going to take you away from your kid, especially if you’re at those early stages of work re-entry. Your flexible workplace culture sounds very promising. It may be too late for this, but I worked a 3-day-per-week schedule for my first 6 months back, then transitioned to 4 days per week (which is where I’m at now, and my daughter is 27 months old).
As for what to say to coworkers: I would just be straightforward, honest, but don’t give them more info than they need. “Is she sleeping through the night?” “Pretty close!” “Are you still nursing?” “Nope!” “Has she solved the quadratic equation yet?” “No, but thank goodness she has her good looks!”* Easy breezy is your friend here. Most people don’t ask questions like this to be jerks — they just think everyone is supposed to ask that stuff, so try not to take it too personally. They also obviously don’t read Corporette.
Above all: figure out what works for you, which may take some time but you’ll get there. Flexibility is your friend. Good luck, and come back here to keep us posted!
*Clarification in case of possible flaming: this was meant as a joke.
ABC
Haha, I had to google the meaning of YMMV. Thanks for the insight on skyping; I hadn’t thought of that.
I was thinking about just flat out leaving work at noon and going home. Not sure I can swing that if I’m “full time” and trying not to appear like an entitled jerk.
One day at a time = my mantra!
I like what you’ve said about how to respond to questions — perhaps just a quick response followed by “So what’s being going on around here since I’ve been gone?” I am awful in these situations!
TCFKAG
OH MY GOD HOW COULD YOU ONLY VALUE YOUR PRECIOUS GIRL-BABY FOR HER LOOKS!!!!!!!!!! SHE HAS A BRAIN! AND SHE CAN SUCK HER TOES…THAT TAKES SKILLS! Can you suck your toes??? I don’t think so!
CA Atty
You just made me snort tea through my nose!!
ABC
Geez, why’d you have to bring up the fact that my baby can’t suck her toes… waaaaaaaahhhhh
Godzilla
I loooooooooovveeee you!
TCFKAG
Also — serious question — is a question like “is the baby sleeping through the night?” or “is she crawling yet?” or something like that overly intrusive?? I always thought that was just politely curious about this new important thing in this person’s life! I mean — obviously I don’t ask about their nursing habits (seriously, no asking about someones b**bs at work seems like rule numero uno) — but you can’t ask about major developmental milestones???
I don’t make it the sole topic of conversation or anything, but just wondering. (Side note — I really like kids and really do care how the kids of my colleagues are doing…I’m not asking just to be nosy!)
ABC
I have come to find that, due to a mother’s paranoia, what she really hears is “Your baby should be sleeping through the night by now, so why isn’t he/she….?” Especially if this question comes from another parent or someone otherwise obsessed with their favorite nephew, etc.
Nothing will likely cure this if coming from other parents, but if you’re not a parent, all would be remedied with me if you can honestly start with something like “I don’t know much about when kids are supposed to reach certain milestones, but I was wondering if your baby …”
SpaceMountain
I always saw the “how’s the baby sleeping” question sort of like a generic “how are you.” Nobody really expects a long discussion of sleep habits (other than your family & BFF, possibly); you are supposed to say that you are hanging in there, and then move on to something else, just as you are not going to go into incredible detail about your bunions or whatever when someone asks you how you are. I recall going back to work, fielding a variety of generic, friendly questions, passing around a few baby pictures, and then moving on to the important topic of work.
ANP
TCFKAG, I see this as a totally harmless/nice question — as someone else said, akin to “How are you doing?” It’s only bad when followed with raised eyebrows or overt judgement: “What?!?! She’s not sleeping through the night at 6 weeks/months!?!?”
I continue to be amazed by people with lots and lots of kids who forget that you usually have to teach babies/children to go to sleep and stay asleep. There always those lucky parents who end up with an awesome sleeper off the bat, but that’s often not the case.
Plus, you combine any harmless question with severe sleep deprivation (which is often the case for a new parent) and it can sometimes seem worse than it is. Not that people need to tiptoe on eggshells around new moms or anything — but as I told my husband when our daughter was first born, sleep deprivation is a form of torture and rightfully so!
Jen
Without reading the other responses, first, I’ll say this… Don’t second guess any of your decisions based upon what you think other people think is the right thing to do. Only you know what is best for your baby and your family. In my case, that is having a busy working mom who can provide for the family and retain her mental health.
It sounds trite, but my best advice (3 years of full-time work/parenting with two kiddos under age 4) is to make the time at home with the baby really “count”. Take some time every day to give the baby your undivided attention. Even if its only for a few minutes, fully engaging with them for a little while each day helps the guilt sooooo much.
In my case, I have instituted a policy of “no to-do Tuesdays”. I work past their bedtimes on Monday nights due to a meetings schedule I can’t control. So on Tuesdays, we get dinner delivered, and I hang out building with blocks or reading books on the couch all night. No dishes, no emails, no laundry. I think it does a lot to allay the guilt, as well as re-charge all our batteries.
Good luck!
anon
This is a fantastic idea.
ABC
Ahhh that does sound nice! Thanks!
elz
Full disclosure- it’s been 5 years since my last maternity leave. That said, I’m not certain that I would want to have seen my babies during the day. It would be far too distracting and emotional; at least at the very beginning. I have always had lots of pictures in my office and now have their most colorful pictures surrounding me at work. I know childcare centers that have closed circuit tv. I would be sucked into that all day and get nothing accomplished!
I think you’ll find that once you are working and occupied, you aren’t as sad. You’ll still be sad. You’ll always worry, but you have to wear your work hat too. Being a working mother is hard. No way around that.
As far as probing questions…well, you’re going to get those and you just have to feel it out for what you feel comfortable sharing. People usually ask things just so they can share their story- “my aunt’s 2nd cousin twice removed did x, y, z.”
Midwest
I’m sending a big hug your way because I remember all those feelings and emotions. It was tough, and I missed my DS bunches. Here are some concrete things that helped me:
– I was lucky enough to have DS in a daycare 10 minutes from my office, so I went over there during my lunch break to nurse him. That way I eliminated one pumping from my day, and I was able to reconnect with him. Sometimes it made it harder, emotionally, to see him during the middle of the day but it assuaged the guilt a bit.
– Outsource as much as you can during the first year. I am kicking myself for not hiring a cleaning service to help us out as we got acclimated. Less time doing household chores = more family time.
– Easier said than done, but make your mantra “quality over quantity.” When you’re home, really be home and engaged. Wait until your babe goes to bed to start working on chores (and while you’re at it, pare down your expectations a lot).
– If you can swing working from home one day a week, do it. Looking back, I think that would’ve been manageable until DS was around 7 months or so. I also got permission to slightly change my work schedule so I’d have more time in the evenings with DS. My in-office schedule is 7:30-4:30.
– Have at least one working mom friend that you confide in, ESPECIALLY on the hard days. Your husband will not get it. Your SAHM friends will not get it. Your own mother may not get it, especially if she stayed home with you. These differences have lessened over time, but during those earliest days, I really needed someone in the trenches that I could commiserate with.
– Take care of yourself. Especially if your babe isn’t sleeping during the night yet and you’re nursing, take advantage of your weekends and REST when your baby rests. That’s where help with cleaning comes in. :)
– Accept that things are going to feel really off-kilter for awhile. Simplifying everything — meals, household routines, social commitments, etc. — helps.
ABC
Thank you thank you thank you! Will try to accept being off kilter…
Margaret
Many mornings when I get dressed, I wish I had pale pink pumps to put on. I think they would be a great neutral for many of my outfits. I think I’m going to begin the hunt. Any suggestions? I like closed toe, around 3 to 3 1/2″ heel, and would want a pretty staid style to offset the girly color.
Relatedly, at what point in pregnancy would I know for sure whether my feet are going to permanently upsize? I’m at five months now, and my feet haven’t gotten any bigger. (Of course, I haven’t put on any weight yet — thanks Morning Sickness — and expect/hope to do so soon, so might that affect my foot size?)
30
Re the pumps – how pink do you want them? I saw these the other day and they’re more coral than pink, but I thought they would make a lovely neutral (for someone): http://piperlime.gap.com/browse/product.do?cid=59269&vid=1&pid=907759&scid=907759012
Margaret
Ooh, those are interesting! They remind me a bit of when my aunt got married in the early 90s and chose “Dusty Rose” as her wedding color. Is that back in style? I could get behind it because the color is objectively pleasing, but I worry that it would be a dated color quickly.
I was originally thinking something more along the ivory-pale-pink line. For example, I love these, but thought the wooden heel made them too casual for work: http://www.zappos.com/nine-west-selene-taupe-leather
Anonymous NYer
Ooh I looove a wooden stacked heel. I don’t really think they make a shoe too casual, just a bit more contemporary(maybe?) than a covered heel. I think you should go with those.
RRugosa
30 – these are lovely, and very neutral-y.
Diana Barry
It really depends on the pregnancy for your foot size, unfortunately. But mine tended to grow in the last 3 months more than the rest of it.
Also, I found that the shoes I wore all the way through my pregnancy stretched out and fit me fine, but then I had to recalibrate sizing for the shoes I bought afterwards.
FP Angie
My feet didn’t get huge until the last month… I would just wait to purchase new shoes, especially if it’s hot in the summer… you’d be amazed at how big your feet can get. That being said, my feet are now even smaller than they were pre-pregnancy (weird, right?).
Salit-a-gator
These Nine West pumps were recommended by Kat in the basic black pump post, and they come in a light pink too. Great ratings on Zappos, but cheaper on 6pm:
http://www.6pm.com/nine-west-selene-natural-leather
Westsidebee
I have a pair of pale pink pumps from Steve Madden. I looked for them online just now to show you a link but couldn’t find them — I got them over a year ago at an outlet mall so my exact pair may not be available anymore. But I just wanted to add that I love them — they are surprisingly versatile, and I wear them with all kinds of things. So onward with your search!
TK1
To the polka-dot loving gang, 6pm has Nine West navy polka dot pumps today. I’ll post the link below to avoid moderation.
TK1
http://www.6pm.com/product/7782691/color/79779
TCFKAG
There’s also a closed toe version, for the non-peep toe brigade!
TCFKAG
http://www.6pm.com/product/7631215/color/114971?zlfid=mlt
Anonynon
I like these very much but do not see a polka-dot in sight. Still, cute shoes!
TCFKAG
Scroll through the options, one of them is polka-dotted. The link goes to a non-polka dotted option though, for some reason.
CA Atty
Oh my god I want like 5 of these.
Anonynon
found them – choose navy/white fabric color
JJS
Threadjack. DH and I are having trouble finding a home to buy. I have posted about our specific struggles before, but the gist is we are looking in a pretty small area and have a limited (but doable) budget for that area. This is very frustrating for both of us and is starting to cause relationship problems. In situations like this, I tend to obsess, annoying him, and he tends to pull away, annoying me. I don’t know how much longer we can continue like this without serious ramifications to our marriage, as the arguments are becoming more frequent and more heated. He wants to continue as is, but I think something has to change (our price point, the area, our wants). We have agreed to disagree but it is not going to just go away as we both want to buy something. Any suggestions for dealing with this? My current approach of asking him what we should do turns into an argument every time.
JJS
Meant to add that our marriage is otherwise fantastic and we have never had a big issue like this before, which is probably why I am so poorly equipped to handle it.
AnonInfinity
Can you table the discussion for a while until your feelings are a little repaired? Then agree in advance to talk calmly about the issue and cut the discussion off if someone is being unfair or getting too upset.
I know you can’t control him, but sometimes everyone has to give a little to make things like this work. My husband gets worried about me if I’m gone longer than he expected me to be gone. This used to result in many text messages and increasingly frantic calls that I would ignore because they annoyed me. (His reaction was to obsess and want to talk and mine was to pull away.) We ended up going to counseling (for more than just this issue), and realized that we each have to not completely give in to our urges. If I’m going to be later than anticipated, I’ll text him, even though I think it’s silly for him to get worried if I’m 15 mins late. He doesn’t call or text anymore until I’m really really late, even though he thinks I’m dead somewhere in a firey car crash.
This was a really long anecdote to say that it also might help if you try to control how often you express your obsession, and if he gets on board with humoring you every now and then.
Diana Barry
This is a great strategy. I would try really hard to lay off your obsessive tendencies for a while, and he should try to not give you the silent treatment (or however he reacts) if you bring up something about the house search that you’ve already talked about.
We had an imbalance kind of like AnonInfinity’s early in our relationship, bc now-DH was always worried that I was going to leave him (his mom left his dad) and would get jealous for no reason. I had to learn to express reassurance more than I would have otherwise, and he had to learn how to chill out.
Now I have to actually do some work! Argh.
JJS
Thanks for the advice, I think this is a really helpful suggestion and I will try this. I think your point hits at the issue which is the sense of urgency I feel about moving and his lack of urgency. However, the thought of throwing in the towel for a while is terrifying to me because I’m so afraid we will miss a house. It has become all consuming.
I rationally understand where we are both going wrong but I am at the end of my rope and I think that makes it so much harder to deal with in a productive way. I am normally not at all emotional and almost robotic in my handling of issues, so this is not like me and I have no idea how to handle myself.
RRugosa
Drop the house-hunting for a few months at least. A good marriage is worth much, much more than any house. There will always be new houses on the market. I bin married a long-ass time, and there are always compromises.
a.
“I bin married a long-ass time, and there are always compromises.” Words to live by, and my personal quote of the day.
Maddie Ross
Ugh – don’t do it. If you can’t find a home you’re both happy with, don’t fight and cajole the other person into it. Homeownership can be great, but it can also be a gigantic pain in the rear. More than half of the time, I wish we’d never purchased our home as it’s a huge money pit that we spend all our free time and cash fixing up. I’d shelve the whole issue and be happy renting, without the financial and emotional angst.
JJS
Thanks for your input- I am starting to agreebuying might not be best either, but that raises the other half of our arguing- we can’t find a rental either. Renting will cost us about 400 more a month than we are paying now or a new mortgage would. We need to leave our current rental because it is too far from my husbands job. I think the fact that we have to *something*, either rent or buy, is making me freak out and him retreat. I just don’t know how to get us to come together and find an actual solution. He seems to think giving up and just staying here unhappily is a solution, but that is unfathomable to me.
Maddie Ross
This is just my personal opinion, so take from it what you will, but if you’re having this much trouble agreeing on a home and it’s causing this much angst, an extra $400 a month in rent over a mortgage is probably worth the cost. Yes, the mortgage may be “cheaper,” but I’d say I easily pump $4800 a year into my home over the mortgage (12 months x$400 a month) between replacements and repairs. I’m not even talking about upgrades.
RRugosa
Over the years I’ve read lots of different analyses of the financial advantages of buying vs. renting, and they seem to come out pretty much even, barring big (and unpredictable) fluctuations in the market.
nev
Go to counseling. seriously. It’s way easier to work little things out like this before they become big things. s
Several months ago DH and I had a serious disagreement that we just were not handling well and decided to go to couples’ counseling (his work pays for 7? sessions I think.) Since everything else in our marriage was great we just didn’t know how handle this. We ended up uncovering some underlying conflicts/hurts/communication blocks, that, once resolved, gave us the tools to clear up the surface disagreement too. It was fantastic and we both feel better prepared to handle our next disagreement productively.
anon for this one
I agree 100%. I always blew off counseling as something I would never do. But then my husband suggested that we try it for an issue we just couldn’t resolve ourselves and it has been the best decision ever! We have learned new ways of communicating, uncovered some areas of resentment we hadn’t talked about before, and now our marriage is much, much stronger. The best investment we’ve ever made!!!
Fiona
I could have written this word-for-word one month ago. We looked for a place to buy for over a year. I was feeling exactly the way you are — we need to change our price point, or look in different neighborhoods, or ease up on our list of things that are very important. He was the opposite — he really wanted to find a place that suited all our needs and was willing to keep looking and waiting until we found it. I was also being completely obsessive on Redfin and couldn’t stop stressing about the whole process. Throw in a HCOL area and low inventory, and the whole thing was a big stressful mess.
In the end, we ran out of time because our lease was almost up, and we ended up renting again, but this time splurging on a bigger, nicer apartment in a better area. It was definitely the right decision for us — we are both so relieved. We can spend our weekends doing the things we love instead of house hunting. Plus all that money that we would have sunk into a down payment and closing costs is happily still growing in our investment accounts. And if things change in 2-3 years and we decide we want to leave the city and move to the suburbs, we can buy then without all the transaction costs of selling a condo.
I don’t know if that would be an option for you guys, but it has really relieved all the stress for us to step out of the home buying market for a little while. I figure in a year or two, the market will have stabilized more and we will have more money saved up anyway.
RRugosa
Sounds like you made a good choice. Consider to, that what seems like high rent right now might seem less so in 5 years, as your incomes rise and, one hopes, rent doesn’t, quite as much.
CA Atty
I wish I had stepped out of the housing market 3 years ago. I thought I was buying darn close to the bottom and in 5-8 years I would be able to sell my condo for more than the purchase price. Hah. Also, the HOAs have gone up, um…400%. Half of what I’m paying for my mortgage would have gotten me a darn nice apartment.
But I was doing the same, obsessing, searching Zillow and wherever else, spending my evenings and weekends house hunting when I needed to be working or running. I finally said “hell, it’s not perfect but it’s in my price range, it’s close to work, in 5-8 years I’ll sell it, make a little, and know more about what I want out of life.” Hahahahahahahahaha.
Oops.
ChocCityB&R
JJS, I echo everyone’s comments. I was in the SAME situation as you are in, with the roles exactly the same. And as much as it pained me to admit it, the better approach was my husband’s. Not always, but when it comes to the housing market, the person who is “obsessed” and who feels urgency about buying “now” and compromising what they want and their budget is going to get something they don’t want. Patience, especially in this market, is not a bad idea. It was the urgency of others that contributed to our current foreclosure crisis.
If I were you, (and the feminist in me is cringing even writing this), I’d let my husband take the lead on the house buying. I say this for the following reasons:
1. If you are anything like me, it’s impossible not to start obsessing once you get into it. It can start with an innocent look at zillow and devolve rather quickly into an argument. The only strategy that works with this kind of thing is to go cold turkey with searching.
2. Since your husband is feeling pressure from you, if you let him take the lead it will show him that you value his opinion. That was why my husband was so angry with me, my constant obsession made him think that I felt I had to do everything because I couldn’t trust him.
3. Some distance from the process will show you that one house is not the ONLY house for you, and that new ones pop up all the time that you fancy just as much as the old. This isn’t like finding a partner, it’s an investment, and you should do it with 80% mind and 20% heart, not the other way around.
Most important thing to know, is that you will come through the other end. If you continue the way you are, you’ll come through the other end with bitterness, and you’ll be forced to live in that bitterness for years. Don’t let that happen!
Sconnie
First off, I understand your frustration. House hunting is a real bi*ch. It starts out all happy cheerful flowers and rainbows while you look at online listings and dream about all the updates and decorating you’d do to make some house look like it stepped out of the pages of Domino (may she rest in peace) or House Beautiful or Pottery Barn or whatever.
Then reality sets in. You start to go to open houses and showings and those houses that looked pretty good online look like cheap 70s wood-paneled and rando red carpeted nightmares. And they all end up smelling weird and have like, a million safety hazard/code violations (mold! cracked foundation! potential gas leak!) and never enough bathrooms. Houses that used to have reasonable prices now are looking like money pits because you realize in the first 1-2 years you live there, you’re going to have spend $$$$ on the roof, HVAC, plumbing, renovations, etc.
And then there’s your sense of ugency. I had this too – hubs and I had a hard moveout deadline. So instead of leisurely waiting for the perfect house, we had to start eliminating wants from our list and ended up with good enough.
Lessons I learned though:
1). It is hard on the relationship and arguments will happen. I don’t think you need counseling though. You are two adults who love each and have made it this far in life, apart and together. You can figure out a way to come to agreement on this. Maybe that means you chill out a bit – you said you have to move for his job, but he’s the one wanting to continue as is. Maybe if he would rather commute farther, you let him? Or maybe he needs to put on his big boy pants and start compromising on price point/area/wants. My guess is you guys need a combination of these – him to come to reality and you to chill out.
2). You will not find the perfect house. The only people who get perfect houses are either crazy no-budget wealthy or they build their own. Realize you are not getting something you want. Prioritize.
3). Even if you think you have found something perfect or that you will be happy to live in, know that something is going to break and require a lot of money. This is one of the “joys” of homeownership.
I would also add (now mind you, I don’t know you, so I’m making some assumptions based on your post) that you say “My current approach of asking him what we should do …” I’ve run into this with the hubs before. Like you, it leads to argument. Consider going to him with a plan instead of the question “What should we do?” Make it a declarative statement of what you want to do. “DH, I’m frustrated with our house search, but it’s important to me that we move and buy instead of rent. After looking at our finances and what’s on the market, I think we should [insert changed price point/area/wants].” I’m not saying that it’s up to you to change or that he is blameless. No. Not at all. But in similar situations, I found this to alleviate a lot of stress between hubs and I. It motivated him to do the same and got us talking constructively. Pretty quickly we were working together to solve the problem.
SC
As to (3), there is no perfect house. Even if you build it.
I know a couple who are a real estate agent (wife) and contractor (husband). He refuses to build a house for her until she can admit that there is no “perfect house.” They’ve been together about 15 years and have moved at least 5 times, but as far as I know, they’re nowhere close to building.
JJS
Thank you all so much for your kind words and wisdom. After I had a pity party this morning, I came back and read all of your responses and I feel much better about trying to sort things out with hubs. While I’m still fairly despondent about the process, I realize I am partly to blame and am obviously approaching things in the wrong way. I guess it sometimes takes a stranger to tell you something to make you actually consider it. I have been doing a lot of thinking this afternoon and I think after things have quieted down in a while, I’ll try some of your suggestions and hopefully we can resolve this. Thanks again for the support!
Dahlia
We are currently in contract. We looked at a ton of places and agonized, and made lists and worried….
Then something came on the market, and as soon as I saw the pictures something clicked. We saw it that weekend and it *felt* perfect for both of us. Its just like when we met each other – we just “knew” that this was our house.
Everyone else had great advice up there. But at some point, you will find the place that will feel right for you. And you will know.
Good luck!
Classof2011
Going through a very similar situation like this right now. Actually, pretty much the EXACT same situation. I would be interested to hear more responses, but I’m mainly writing to say you aren’t the only one.
Classof2011
Whoops that was before I saw all these posts. Great advice from Corporettes once again!
Anon
Threadjack – Little Green Notebook blog posted today about her daily cleaning schedule which keeps her apartment put together and makes it so she doesn’t have to spend her weekend cleaning. I would love to implement something like this because my apartment is frequently messy and then all of my Saturday will be wasted on deep cleaning and just straightening it up. The LGN blogger is a stay at home mom so her cleaning schedule wouldn’t work for me, but I was wondering if any of you have a similar way of cleaning? Any tips on keeping up with it while working fulltime would be great!
AIMS
My system is very much a work in progress but basically involves about 15 minutes of “tidying” on weekdays and about 2 hours actual cleaning on saturday morning. It’s still not fun to clean on Saturday but it’s easier. Basically, my “system” is to just do things as they come up – put away clothes daily, wash dishes daily, wipe down counters daily. But I just do this as needed, so it never gets overwhelming (e.g., come home from work, put away work clothes or make dinner, wipe down kitchen counter) and I do it with the TV or music on so it’s not a total “chore.” On Weds., I usually quickly vacuum (not too thorough but just give the floors and rugs a once over) and wipe down the various surfaces so nothing is too dirty by Saturday.
My grandmother, who always had a spotless home, used to always say that “it’s never hard to do one thing, wash one plate, etc., it’s when you let stuff pile up that it gets burdensome” and I really try to keep that in mind. The bonus is that when I am good about always doing these things, picking up stuff, etc., I tend to move more and not just sit on the couch and I actually get thinner. So there’s that, too.
AppealingLawyer
There are a few things you can do to lighten your load.
Start with taking care of your shower so you don’t have mildew to scrub out on the weekend. You can do this by buying a squegee (sp?) and wiping down the moisture off the walls after each shower. Also, keep your fan on or window open (dampness is what causes the mildew in the first place) until the steam is out of the room.
I like to keep Windex wipes under my bathroom sinks. Let’s me wipe out the sink/surround and the mirror quickly whenever it looks gross. I’ve read that microfiber cloths will do the same thing and plan on looking into them (but have not as of yet).
Swiffer is my best friend. I have hard wood floors throughout my first floor and I always like to make sure that I sweep at least once every other day. If you leave dirt build up by the front door you’re going to have it tracked all through your house in no time.
I also really like my cordless vacuum cleaner, which is lightweight. It makes it super easy to do a light vacuum without busting out my big corded vacuum. It has a battery back that recharges when not in use.
I also use my DirtDevil hand vac all the time (I have kids) for picking up crumbs etc. I leave it on my kitchen counter in its charger so it’s always handy.
Godzilla
Check out flylady. Her emails can be overwhelming but you don’t have to subscribe to them – her website has a lot of tips. Plus, feel free to take anyone’s cleaning schedule and modify it to fit you.
Bluejay
Honestly? I have a cleaning service come once a month to do all of the deep cleaning for me, and I just pass the swiffer around once a week or so and try not to leave any dirty dishes overnight. It works for me.
Amy H.
This is me too — with the addition of wiping down sinks and other bathroom surfaces 1x/week or so.
Anon
Maybe pick what is critical and focus on that? For us it is bath/shower, toilet, kitchen and floors being vacuumed. Everything else is pretty much allowed to slide. Then figure out a quick routine for each, something you can do in 15 minutes or so and do it once a week. For our bathroom, it’s spraying the walls and tub down with cleaner, scrubbing it quickly, then doing the same with the wash basin, emptying the trash and changing the towels. I also do ad hoc and very quick tidying in the kitchen when I’m there making coffee, like wiping the counters down etc, just to keep things a bit hygienic for family meal prep. Plus throw laundry in whenever I have a minute. Our standards for the house are not super high though.
Bewildered
Hello lovely ladies,
I had posted on here a few months ago about the complete, broken mess that my job is ….(working insane hours, overseas colleagues).
Last week I clicked on a link which discussed that men will tend to apply for jobs when they meet 60% of the requirements, but women limit themselves to jobs where they meet most of the bullet points. (It was either in the news roundup, or one of the sites the news roundup linked to).
So, today I did something audacious…..I submitted a job application to a local company that I would love to work for….it is a more much senior level job than I’ve held before, and in a completely different industry. I do have lots of experience in the fundamentals of what they are looking for (marketing).
Part of me feels like it is a complete long shot, but I also feel like I might just have a chance if I can get the interview.
The waiting will be the hardest part……will gladly accept any hopeful vibes you wish to send in my direction.
Thanks!
AnonInfinity
Good luck! This is a great step for you!
Former MidLevel
Good for you!
nona
You can’t win if you never play. And those qualification listings are usually wish lists, not minimum requirements, right?
Good luck!
Niktaw
Why only one job application? Cast a wider net – this will keep you busy and distract from focusing on just one opportunity!
D
Good luck!
When I was younger I used to ask myself “What is the biggest risk you have taken lately?” and it helped push me to make big life decisions that I never would have otherwise. I think I need to start doing that again!
anonynon
Proud of you!
a.
Good luck! I remember your post, so I’m sending out lots of good vibes for you :)
ABC
I had the standard 12 weeks.
Our firms sound similar. My firm is not big on face time, but I know that if I leave work to do at home, it probably won’t get done. I do think I could swing leaving super early — on the assumption that the only work I’d be doing is checking emails and responding to emergencies — but I do realize there will be days when I would grudgingly have to work from home at those times.
ABC
Blargh, in response to Diana Barry above…
Diana Barry
Gotcha. I prob should have added that we have a dedicated home office so it is easier for me to get work done there, and I work better at home anyway (many don’t).
I would def try taking advantage of leaving early as much as possible. If you set the expectation right away that you are available by phone/email after X hour, it is easier to maintain (rather than having lots of face time and then trying to cut it down). Good luck!
shamlet96
TJ for ladies who have clerked for a judge: Have you ever asked your judge to put in a call/email for you for a job? That is to say, not a formal recommendation letter, but rather a more informal “reaching out” on your behalf? I know a lot of people who clerked for judges who offer to do so, which is of course great, but neither of my judges are that type. I’m waiting to hear back about my dream job, in my dream city (interviewed in late January) and I’ve heard anecdotally that they are getting tons of calls on behalf of candidates who have interviewed. I’ve had some people reach out already on my behalf, but I figure it can’t hurt for a federal judge (who sits in the city where the job is) to do so as well. Any tips on how to approach it? Send an email or phone call? Thanks in advance :)
D. Ct. Clerk
I would just ask your judge–via phone, unless he/she strongly prefers email. If you tell your judge about the job and how excited you are about it, he/she may offer to reach out on your behalf without you even asking. (Disclaimer: I have a judge who offers, sua sponte, to make calls all the time, so maybe I’m not the right person to ask.)
shamlet96
thanks dct clerk! My judges are both incredibly wonderful people, but I think they’re just not the type to reach out sua sponte, as you put it. I also have important family reasons for needing to move back, so I’m hoping that helps. I just don’t want to make my judge feel awkward at all, kwim? Thanks again :)
D. Ct. Clerk
I hear you, but I doubt you’ll make either judge feel uncomfortable. Most judges I know are very interested in promoting and helping their former clerks. And FWIW, I would definitely mention that you have family reasons for wanting to move back, even if you don’t explain what those are. Good luck!
Former Federal Clerk
I haven’t done so, but I would have had no problem asking my judge for a formal or informal recommendation. I say go for it! He or she would probably actually like to do it and be flattered that you asked.
Ms. Basil E. Frankweiler
I asked my COA judge to send an email on my behalf to a (state) S. Ct. Justice and he said yes, but I had another COA judge (I’m taking his writing class) start out the class with a flat-out “I will not give reccomendations to firms because I don’t think it’s appropriate given my position.”
AEK
My former judge was an excellent reference for me when contacted. But she told me (before I ever asked) that she does not make unsolicited calls or letters on behalf of candidates because she thinks that even informally, it could be construed as asking for a favor, and she’s not comfortable with that given her position and the power dynamics.
From my perspective now (8 years practicing), if a judge from the jurisdiction where I practice called me to put in a word for someone, I would feel really uncomfortable. (But I wouldn’t question the intentions / integrity of the caller.)
shamlet96
thanks for this. My judge basically just told me the same thing; it was a bit awkward but at least I gave it a shot. hopefully it won’t hurt me in the process not have him call for me.
Nonny
Threadjack about shared finances.
On the cusp of cohabiting with my BF (with a view to marriage) and we are thinking about how to deal with finances. We are considering various shared finance models and I am curious as to how other couples manage their finances. Do you have both paycheques deposited into a joint account and then transfer out personal “play money” to your individual accounts? Do you have your paycheques deposited into your individual accounts and then transfer a specific sum each month into the joint account? What do you do generally in terms of joint/individual accounts?
For reference, we both make healthy salaries (though mine is a little higher) and will be jointly purchasing a house. He is definitely a better saver than me.
I look forward to hearing how other people do it! TIA.
30
We’re pretty traditional – we have all shared accounts and consider all of our money to be “ours.” Technically, his paycheck goes to checking, mine to savings (for now – we’ve flipped that around as changing jobs warrant). When we take cash out for the month, though, we do have a “no questions asked” policy – so in effect, I guess that’s sort of like “play money.” But mostly we trust each other not to make crazy ridiculous purchases and talk in advance about any really big purchases.
30
P.S. I should add that I’ve always made more (sometimes significantly more) money during our marriage. But we’ve always had enough money that we haven’t had to make really hard decisions about discretionary spending.
Fiona
We do the “mine, his, and ours” system. We both have our paychecks deposited into our individual checking accounts, and then we move over equal amounts to joint checking during the month to cover joint expenses, which we define pretty broadly and include rent, groceries, utilities, car, insurance, dog walker, cleaning lady, meals out, entertainment, weekends away, etc. We also move a set amount into a joint savings/brokerage account every month and invest that together.
As time has gone on, our joint expenses have grown and our individual expenses have shrunk as we’ve merged our lives together, so at this point the only thing we really pay for out of our individual accounts are student loans, meals/coffee when we’re not together, and clothes. We also max out our individual 401(k)s and maintain individual savings/brokerage accounts for whatever individual savings we want to do beyond our joint savings.
N.
We used the same system (contributing a fixed amount to a joint account) for the first several years of living together, and it worked really well for us. No fussing with figuring out who owes who for what, but it still felt like we had some control over our individual finances.
I would add, though, that this only worked well while we were making roughly the same income and had uncomplicated expenses — it was a lot more difficult to figure out when I was making significantly more than him, and we were renting a second apartment when I took a job in a new city, etc. At that point, we moved over to an entirely joint system because it started to become more of a headache than it was worth to figure out what was a joint expense or not and what we each should contribute to the joint account. At that point we’d also been married for a few years, so I felt much less angst about merging finances than I did when we first moved in together.
Can't wait to quit
When DH and I got engaged and moved in together, we came up with a “family budget” that covered rent, utilities, groceries, some “fun” money, etc. We split the total between us proportionately according to our incomes (we were pretty equal then, then I made a lot more, then he caught up some). Whatever was left over was each of ours to spend. We added some categories to the family budget over the years, and we do usually just pay for vacations from our “extra” money.
Cat
Until we were married, hubby and I kept everything entirely separate – but we had separate apts. so making a joint payment wasn’t an issue. If we had been living together, we would have set up a joint account and each contributed to the rent/mortgage payment that way.
Putting aside investment accounts, we chose the most straightforward system for us – now married 5 yrs. We both direct deposit into a joint account, use the same credit card account (and charge almost EVERYTHING, down to the cup of oatmeal from the office cafeteria – why give up free points when we pay it off every month anyway) – so we both have good visibility into our spending. Around Christmas or birthdays, we have bans on our normal every-few-days review of the credit card spending to avoid spoiling surprises :)
Diana Barry
We share all our $$. All joint, no individual accounts (except for the retirement accounts where it is required). If we need to make fun purchases, they all come out of the joint account. We are both savers, relatively, and have never had to curb discretionary spending, so it works well.
We also put everything into the joint account as soon as we moved in together, and then we bought a house together in joint name a year later. (Then we got engaged, and then married.)
If one of you tends to spend more on “fun” things than the other, I might agree on a budget for the “fun” things and transfer that out of the joint account every month. Or you could agree to transfer a set amount into the joint account every month to cover expenses and savings, and then the leftover could be for fun.
Anon
We were poor students when we got married, so this may make our situation different. Though now that we both made decent money we have not changed things. Both paychecks get deposited into one account, all bills get paid from this account. We discuss big purchases before we make them, but smaller purchases can just be made. I guess we trust each other enough or know eachother well enough, because there is no dollar amount set on this, but we just kind of know when to discuss something and when to just do it. He keeps track of our finances more than I do, but we both always have a general idea of what is coming in and going out. We also sit down every year and make financial goals for the year (get this debt paid off, save this amount of money, purchase this big item, etc.)
Lynnet
This is what we do. When we want to rein in our spending we take a set amount of fun money in cash out at the beginning of every month (so, say, we’d each get $150.00, or whatever). I was really, really worried about giving up my financial independence when we got married, but it hasn’t been a big deal at all. It’s really, really nice to not have the stress of worrying about who owes who how much. It helps that we have almost identical spending and saving habits.
TCFKAG
For the first 6-9 months or so that we lived together, my then boyfriend and I split bills proportionally (I was in law school). Then we realized it was a lot of work and maybe stupid.
What we’ve been doing since then (about three years or so), is that our paychecks deposit into a single account. We have one joint credit card and then separate checking accounts. We also have what we call a “mad money” budget that we can spend on anything we want. I spend it on things like having the skirt in every color — he spends his on gadgets. Everything else is covered by the communal money.
We also save communally and pay off my student loans communally. Mostly because its easier. :-P
VBSF
Very similar to Cat and 30 – we share all our accounts and credit cards. Everything gets direct deposited into one account and my husband mostly shuffles between checking and savings account (and deals with our 401K and other investments). Major personal purchases (maybe more than $100?) will usually warrant a quick FYI email/call so the other person isn’t shocked when the cc bill arrives. I probably spend more on myself on a day to day basis (hello pedicures! hello Gilt!) but he “saves” up his daily expenses and blows them on a golf trip or weekend to AC. In the long run (we’ve been married 5 years) I have to believe it all just works out even.
Please Consider
Nonny, I’m not sure about your situation (former spouses or kids) and I think I recall that you live in England, but please consider a cohabitation agreement and non-joint finances.
The cohabitation agreement is important whether there are former marriages or not. You can look it up, but basically it covers everything a prenup would (which is to say, whatever issues you want and it says whatever you want about those issues). In CA (the only state I had to research for, ahem, personal reasons), we do not have common law marriage. In other words, no matter how long you live together as partners, you never acquire marital rights. In states where there is common law marriage, cohabitation agreements can be drafted to change that default. This affects all kinds of things that depend on marital status: taxes, social security, insurance, disability etc. You can also use a cohab agreement to address who is bringing what assets into the relationship, how they will be handled during the relationship (hopefully forever) and how they will be handled if/when the relationship ends. When you get married, you change it out for a prenup. In our case, we addressed all those issues but we also added that my income/assets are not available to pay his debts/obligations (read: alimony to a woman who said “Oh, you’re marrying a fancy lawyer, I guess you can afford to pay me more now.”) and that the money he had set aside for his kids was never to be used for me (I wouldn’t anyway, but I like that I said so in writing).
As for the logistics of how you arrange your accounts (bank accounts, insurance, lease) and hold title to your assets (accounts, cars, lease, deed), if there is a former spouse in the picture, please please please speak to an attorney about how to shield each of you from the former spouse’s long-arm reach. If there is no former spouse issue, then in addition to what is comfortable for you I would consider the possibility that you will one day want to be or have to be alone and whether you will be able to do that based on however you have set it all up (will you have a credit history, access to money without court intervention).
I know, this is not fun to think about. I promise that I actually am a romantic. And I can feel free to be romantic knowing that we are both protected.
Nonny
Thanks, Please Consider, this is all important stuff and good to raise. FYI, there are no former spouses (on his side or mine) and no children, and we are in Canada, where common law spouses do have rights. We are talking through all this stuff. I especially appreciate your comment re maintaining personal credit history, which is something that I hadn’t given a lot of thought to.
LC
I’ve lived with my boyfriend for the better part of a decade. We’ve never actually combined finances, but what we do is try to give each person the same amount of discretionary funds. He pays bills x,y,z and I pay bills a,b, and c. The amounts we pay end up being different (I make double what he does), but we each end up with nearly the same amount left over for dinners, shopping, etc. That way we don’t need to nitpick each other’s finances. Oh, and of course we’re pretty good about covering each other if one of us gets a little low for some reason. It’s worked out great for us so far.
ShortieK
my BF (we’re engaged so I guess I should say fiancee, but the wedding isn’t for three years) and I put a fixed amount into a joint account each month. That mostly goes towards rent, groceries, and eating out. We also have a small joint savings account that I think of as “wedding and future travel”.
At this point, a completely joint account wouldn’t work for us. I’m paying back significantly higher student loans (he has almost none) and we each have different vices. I have a higher salary so while the fixed amount for rent and groceries is the same, the saving account is a %.
ss
No one else has mentioned the option of keeping things separate (at least initially), so I’ll put my experience down, along with a bit of context.
Our context was that my husband and I were both earning well in excess of our individual needs when we got married but had different family backgrounds (he has elderly dependent relatives whereas I will inherit wealth). He was initially reluctant to pool finances and it wasn’t a big deal for me whether we did or not. We both wrote cheques for our house and still live with casual arrangements on specific expenses (I pay for groceries and the cleaning lady, he pays for utilities, if I get the air tickets for a holiday, he’ll get the hotel etc etc).
In recent years (we’ve been married 14 years), we’ve created a pot for shared portfolio investments. I’ve always invested my own money (this is my area of professional expertise) and he’s mostly tucked his into a conservative savings account. But after 2008, he figured it was as good a time as any to put money to work and was keen to tap my input. Rather than create hassle by replicating my own portfolio for him, I simply allowed him to ‘buy’ into my ‘pot’. We now both regard the ‘pot’ as ‘ours’ and our stakes are the cumulative value of each person’s contribution X the value of the pot. There are multiple accounts to operate the pot and all are in our joint names, although in practical terms I am the only one who makes investment decisions and give instructions to banks/ brokers/ managers.
Obviously it’s a little odd to have ended up co-mingling a large chunk of our individual wealth after having started off with more-or-less separate finances. But it’s definitely worked out for us and with very little friction along the way.
RRugosa
Love the jacket. Slight concern over the set of the sleeve cap, might need tailored, but also might be just the pose.
Bunkster
Ladies, for those of you who get migraines, what do you do if you get the aura at work? I’ve only had migraine with aura about 5 times. This is the first time I’ve gotten the aura at work. The headache hasn’t come yet and I may have successfully warded it off by taking Ibuprofen 800. But the aura is still here. It’s a growing blurry circle. Usually, it’s been a wavy line.
Latina
Sometimes I try and take a nap. Maybe in the car, on a couch in the office, even with your head on your desk? The worst thing you can do is keep reading or looking at a computer.
Keep up with the Ibeprofen every 4 hours. Also caffeine helps.
If you can leave for the day or go home for an hour nap. I know that advice isn’t very realistic.
Ashley
The aura signals to me that I am about the become a pile of mush, so while I can still drive (I live about 7 mins from work), I need to leave. Immediately. Do you get any numbness, mental confusion, etc. or just the aura? I have been able to lessen the length of the effects by taking my prescription pills and taking a nap in a dark room, but the aura for me means that I’m down for the count for at least 4-6 hours, more if I don’t get my pills in time. Also, if the type of aura is changing, I would consider heading home and taking a nap.
Bunkster
It just went away after 25 minutes. I do still feel not quite well and I feel like the headache may hit. I’m not sure that it’s numbness, but I feel off.
My commute is a 30 minute T ride and then a 10-minute drive home. I like the idea of going home, but I think a loud, crowded T ride would do me in. I’m going to try to take it easy for the rest of the day.
TCFKAG
Its days like this where I spring for a cab to my car Bunkster. :-)
TCFKAG
I can take the Immitrex without actually falling asleep so sometimes I do that. Other times I just try to stave it off with caffeine and Excedrine. I also try to rub the temples and the insides of my eyes right by the nose and take deep breathes.
But yeah — sometimes you just have to go home.
Bunkster
I have a limited prescription for butalbital/acetaminophen/caffeine. The headache is coming on so I’m going to take that and I should be able to go home in about 2 hours.
I’m actually going to try slipping down to the gym to walk on the treadmill. Since the aura came on while I was sitting at my desk, I’m thinking that some time away may be the cure.
mamabear
That’s the prescription I have. It doesn’t always work for me but immitrex and the other migraine medications are vaso-constrictors, which I’m told is contraindicated if your symptoms include really long-lasting auras.
I try to leave work and go home as soon as the aura recedes. I wouldn’t drive or otherwise commute while I had vision disturbances or other symptoms, but I would drive with a headache to get home to a cool, quiet, darkened home.
Gooseberry
Bunkster, I have no advice other than to say please consider going home (despite that wretched boss of yours) and I hope you feel better!
Maine Associate
As a fellow migraine sufferer, I feel for you. I do not have any suggestions. I don’t get the aura, mine just hit me like a ton of bricks. My doctor recently switched me to a new migraine medication which works great, Relpax. I used to take Immitrex but it would make me dizzy and sometimes nauseous, so I had to be home in bed to take it. The Relpax doesn’t make me dizzy or sick, it just gives me a bit of a drug hangover feeling. It also allows me to keep working after taking it if I have to.
Bunkster
I went to the gym. When I got back, my boss was pissed at me because I accidentally missed a meeting. When I get migraines, my memory gets out of wack.
eek
Mine too. Which is why sometimes I don’t realize I’m having one — I don’t think clearly at all.
eek
Ugh. It takes a while sometimes for me to realize it’s aura – usually I think my eyes are tired from the computer screen and then have my aha! moment, “duh, eek, you’re getting a migraine.” I take an Axert or a generic version of fioricet along with some caffeine immediately. And try to close my eyes and not focus on anything.
I’ve had very good results with Axert – aura goes away within minutes of taking it and headache/nausea avoided. Also, in my experience, doing something as soon as you realize something is off is the best treatment.
long time lurker
I get them about once a year with auras and aspirin and a cold full-sugar soda (coke or ginger ale) with ice, plus avoiding the computer screen and being in a darker room, helps me the most. Usually I have the aura/visual issues for about 1 hour or so and then that fades and I end up with just a headache that lasts 5 hours or so. I’m so relieved about the auras being gone that the headache is almost a relief.
ShortieK
:(
When I’m at work, I take Immetrix and turn off the lights in my office and lie down for 15min with the door shut. This helps a lot. I have trouble focusing when I get a migraine so the break is necessary.
My commute is a 15 minute walk so leaving work is not a good option. I’ve only skipped out when I’ve realized that I didn’t have immetrix in my desk. Without medication I’m down for a few hours.
Bonnie
Animal print lovers: I had to share this leopard print blouse that is part of today’s NM midday dash. http://www.neimanmarcus.com/product.jsp;jsessionid=90C64B7595884F4223DA34F7D30CCB4C?isEditorial=false&index=33&masterId=cat8900735&itemId=prod104350098&cmCat=cat000000cat8900735cat21000740&parentId=cat21000740
MissJackson
Oooh — love Tadashi Shoji, love leopard print… so I especially love this. I already own a leopard print blouse… please tell me it’s not crazy to own a second!
Bonnie
Different styles right?
Lawyer thinking of Atlanta
Threadjack – Can anyone tell me about the legal market in Atlanta? Are the hours as bad there for attorneys as in other big cities? I’m thinking of relocating from biglaw in nyc. I’m not necessarily tied to biglaw, if there is a big difference in quality of life between biglaw and small or medium sized firms.
Thanks!
Lawyer thinking of Atlanta
I should add – I’m a fairly junior corporate lawyer.
Anon
I’m a litigation associate at a medium sized national law firm in Atlanta. I think the answer to this question depends on whether you want to make partner and whether bonuses at your firm are tied to hours. Most firms here have a 1900 or 2000 hour requirement. If you want to make partner, or if your bonus is tied to hours and you want a big bonus, you will probably have to bill a good deal more than that.
It also varies drastically by firm and even practice group, or what partner you work for, within a firm. I have some friends at small firms who are wildly overworked and underpaid, and friends at big firms who meet their billables and no more is expected. Don’t assume that firms advertising quality of life actually provide it.
The upside is, absent the making partner/bonus issue described above, it’s definitely possible to get a good firm job where you won’t be worked to death. You just have to gather all the intel you can and figure out where those jobs are and are not. Also, cost of living is drastically lower here than in NY. That makes up for a lot.