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Anon for this
Got a message via linked in from a hiring manager at my firm’s top competitor asking me to submit my resume for a specific opening which seemed legitimate based on my knowledge of the industry (for a new contract this firm was just awarded). Both my firm and the competitor are fortune 500 companies and arguably #1&2 in our industry. The message said to submit resume to “this address”. I replied and asked “which address”? So he sent back a random AOL address. Does that seem shady?
Anonymous
Shady. Can you easily find out the hiring manager’s work email? I’d shoot him a message there.
Idea
Definitely shady.
annon
It’s been already said – this is shady! Decline to continue speaking with this person unless he/she can explain why you can’t email their business account regarding a business matter
Cb
Curious to hear your thoughts on men pledging not to take part in all-male panels (manels)? A colleague was called out recently for taking part in one and it sparked an interesting discussion in our office over the responsibilities of organisers versus those of individual speakers.
Anonymous
I think it’s mostly self-important ivory tower BS. If you actually think having women represented on panels is important, ask who the other panelists are, suggest qualified women, and back out to make room for them if necessary. Making some sort of a pledge just makes it about you and how special you are. If you’re a man in academia and you can’t think of a suitable woman to suggest the organizers add to the panel, fix that.
Anonymous
I think it depends on how senior the guy is in his field. I think it’s hard to expect junior people to protest sexism (or any other -ism) by panel or conference organizers, because they’re not going to succeed in changing anything and the only thing they’ll accomplish by declining the invite is costing themselves a valuable career development opportunity. But I definitely think people who are a big enough name that threatening to bow out of the panel would lead the organizers to change the composition of the panel should speak up.
Cb
That’s a really good point on level.
Cat
What does this mean? It’s hard to believe that any org would invite someone to be “part of our all male panel” — don’t most orgs reach out to a bunch of people to try to fill a panel? How can you even know when you’re accepting or not if a panel will ultimately be comprised solely of men?
Anonymous
Yes! People who say this have never organized a panel. It’s a nightmare. Trying to get 3-5 people who are all reasonably prominent and who are well-qualified to present on a topic and provide the right mix of expertise and who are all free at the same time and willing to present on your panel…unless you have one person you’re building around (and usually if you do that person is a keynote not on a panel) you kind of throw a bunch of names at the wall and go with what sticks.
Question
I’m interested in people’s thoughts on which scenario would be worse: an all male panel or a panel with a woman who is not qualified to speak on the topic.
I absolutely would love to see more female representation at speaking engagements, but what I do not want is groups adding women to such engagements who are not qualified to speak on whatever the topic is. I understand that the root problem is that often women are not presented with or offered the same growth and promotion opportunities that their male peers have, which can create the situation I presented and make it harder for those putting on these events to find and book highly qualified women. It’s cyclical and I don’t know what the solution is other than continuing to fight for equality in the workplace and against sexism.
Anonymous
I think this question reflects your own bias. I’ve been to plenty of panels with women – including ones where I know for a fact that the woman were put there to meet a diversity quota – and I’ve never once felt like the woman was less qualified or less competent than any of the men.
Question
Oh come on, it’s a hypothetical question. Yes, I HATE women! They are the worst. *eye roll*
I’ve been to panels where both men and women have come off as either unqualified (whether it’s because they were just unprepared, bad public speakers, who knows). I’ve been to panels where women have rocked it hard and I’ve been to panels where men have rocked it. To pretend that there could never be a situation where a woman could possibly appear unqualified shows your bias. Unqualified people come in all shapes, sizes, colors, bodies, etc.
Anonymous
Hyperbole, much? I never said you hated women. I said you were displaying some unconscious bias, which women can have just as much as men.
Of course a particular individual of any sex can be unqualified, but your question comes with a heavy implication that a general philosophy of “we must have at least one woman on the panel” is going to result in an increase in unqualified women speaking on panels (“I absolutely would love to see more female representation at speaking engagements, but what I do not want is groups adding women to such engagements who are not qualified to speak on whatever the topic is.”)
I just don’t think that is true at all. I think there are tons and tons of qualified women out there and organizers frequently don’t make the effort to find them. Forcing people to include women doesn’t result in unqualified women being added, it makes people actually take the time and effort to find the qualified women, and I for one think that’s great.
emeralds
Nailed it, Anonymous at 10:08 am.
anon
Yes, anonymous at 10:08. There’s a very, very common trope out there stating that attempts to increase representation of women anywhere entails the risk of having less qualified individuals enter the arena.
Haven’t we all heard “oh I don’t mind if the IT field/ engineering firm/lab tries to hire more women, as long as they’re qualified!”? The implicit assumption is that there is a non-negligible risk that women won’t be qualified and will be hired anyways because they are women.
Everyone should check out the twitter Man Who Has it All. He flips this trope (and many others) and it’s hysterical and illuminating. And sad.
Cb
I’d prefer to see qualified people of different backgrounds but I think we do need to be careful how we understand qualified – the majority of professors and CEOs are middle aged white men which narrows the pool. Women in these roles are likely inundated with speaking requests. Can we look beyond the “best” title and construct panels incorporating different perspectives (ie. leader of a young start-up or NGO? Early to midcareer researcher doing really innovative work)?
Question
Thank you for your response. I agree that we should look beyond titles to experience and perspectives. I think that approach creates much more interesting and beneficial events for attendees/participants. Perhaps my response to your question is for whomever is concerned with the make-up of the panel to approach it that way, while suggesting women they think would be an asset to the program.
Anonymous
Ummm what? No. Qualified women exist. Full stop. The specter of an unqualified woman is a straw man. And it’s sexist.
Elysian
But depending on the field maybe they asked the qualified or recognized women on that topic and they were busy. There are reasons other than “SEXISMMM” that there might not be women on a panel. I think a blanket personal rule like this would be silly.
Anonymous
I disagree. As part of my work I often put together panels. There simply are not always women who are both qualified and available. And the second factor is huge. Often you’re limited to certain dates for a huge variety of reasons and the person who winds up on my panel may very well have been my 10th pick; all the others were either not interested or not available. So you really need a very deep pool to draw from anyway and even if you had 9 qualified women, you might still wind up with your 10th pick who was a man. But this is also really field-specific. In my field I’d say the split is about 30/70 women/men, so even if there are some qualified women, the pool just isn’t as deep. Finally, when I’m putting together a panel, I’m looking for viewpoint diversity. Even if there may be a woman who has certain qualifications, it might be harder to find a woman who has those qualifications AND is likely to express the viewpoint I’m looking for to ensure an interesting discussion. And I’d far rather have an interesting all-male panel than a dull panel with women any day.
I’m also often invited to speak on panels myself as part of my work. Frankly I’d be offended if I were invited to speak because they “need a woman.” I expect to be invited because I’m the best speaker. And yes I realize that I may very well also be someone’s 10th pick, but at least I hope they’re actually interested in what I have to say not just in the fact that I have b@@bs.
yes
And many of my female colleagues purposefully limit their speaking engagements per year, especially if they involve families. This is often because they are juggling kids/family issues/caregiving of course.
Anonymous
Yes, but in most fields, there are fewer of them. Are you suggesting that women should spend more time than their male colleagues preparing for, traveling to, and sitting on panels? Sitting on a panel isn’t as thankless as serving on a party planning committee, sure, but it’s still time away from the office.
Anonymous
I would rather sit through an all male panel than deal with a moderator who’s so excited to have found A Woman Panelist that he just cannot help himself from letting the entire audience know that she’s A Woman Panelist. Expecting a lone woman panelist to be The Voice of Women is even more sexist and condescending than not making an effort to include women at all. Ditto for other minorities.
Anonymous
It’s very difficult to address this topic when there are hundreds to thousands of conferences and events a week with panels serving different purposes to different people. In many conferences, finding a male panelist is a challenge. So what exactly are we talking about here? Top tier major tech events? Association conferences for financial professionals? Legal? Hospitality? Grade school teachers? Academics?
Cb
In this case it was a panel put together by a professional organisation on a contemporary political issue (academic speakers) but I think this applies to most conferences and events- is the diversity of society adequately represented by the speakers, whether in terms of gender, race, sexual orientation, country of origin? Are we making an effort to include people who might have unique perspectives or are we resorting to the usual suspect because they align with people’s assumption about what a professor – ceo – lawyer – teacher – techie looks like?
Cat
If no women are being *invited* onto a panel, I get the complaint.
But, and I said this differently above, the odds of being able to assemble a perfectly balanced panel for any given conference seems remote at best. It’s hard enough getting ANY panel together for a particular time slot, much less the ideal panel!
Anonymous
Actually if I knew someone had pledged not to present on any panel that didn’t include women, I probably wouldn’t invite that person to speak anymore. As Cat pointed out above, you don’t always know who’ll be on the panel when you accept. So do these people withdraw if there’s no woman on the final panel? Once you nail down a speaker, you want them to stay committed. What if a woman speaker cancels. Do these guys withdraw then? Because then as a planner you have two vacancies to fill. I wouldn’t take the risk and probably would stop inviting them, even for panels where I’m likely to have women.
Away Game
I think that kind of pledge is silly and totally unhelpful. Maybe the panel organizers invited women who could not attend. Maybe the three men represent a good balance of views for the topic. How would another panelist know if a woman bowed out at the last minute, turned down the invitation, or wasn’t interested in the first place? Should all-women panels be banned too? And frankly, if I ever felt invited to a panel to sit in the “woman’s seat,” I would absolutely turn it down. If the panel is all one race, should the participants protest and decline? What if they are all the same religion? Yes, by all means, organizers should cast a wide net, but not all fields have equal representation across all sectors of what is our incredibly diverse and vibrant society, and no 3-5 people are going to be able to represent the full rainbow.
Wildkitten
Mr. Kitten does this. He also knows a lot of women in his industry so he can always suggest other panelists.
plum
I’m really struggling today.
Last night I talked to my ex-boyfriend for the first time since our breakup months ago. I broke up with him reluctantly, but for valid reasons that haven’t changed (a mess of mental issues he didn’t want to deal with that prevented him from being a great partner). But he sent me a nice email asking to talk, and I’ve really missed him–I’ve never loved anyone so much, and though I’ve been on dates it’s like no one compares. Through our period of no-contact I missed him constantly.
We had a good conversation last night, but I said I needed a firm commitment from him to keep him in my life. He is on the verge of moving to a new city for a new job he’s excited about, and while he understands what I want, he feels like he’s on the edge of this period of potential spectacular growth and wants to focus on that and can’t make a commitment.
Tomorrow he’s coming to town so we can discuss things further. I know this sounds like a booty call but isn’t. I don’t know how to make peace with the situation or what to ask for/hope for/plan for when we meet.
I guess the simplest truth is to acknowledge that I told him what I want and he told me he can’t do it, so I need to keep trying to move on. But I don’t want to let go of this person I love so much, and I want so badly to find another solution.
My mind keeps flipping over trying to come up with an alternative. I could try to be friends with him (while dating others), keep having the conversations/interaction that I crave so much, and keep my hand in in case he gets to that point of really wanting to commit…but I don’t think the chances are huge, and it would be hard not to tie up significant amounts of my emotional energy. I could try to convince him our relationship could co-exist with his new career and tell him I’d move with him to the new city…which feels desirable right now, despite the fact that there were valid reasons I broke up with him before. But those reasons feel so far away right now.
The way I feel right now, if I could go back in time, I wouldn’t break up with him in the first place. I’d just accept the bad parts (which were genuinely bad and painful) in exchange for the good parts (which I’ve never experienced to that degree in any other relationship). But even if that was a good idea, I don’t exactly have a time machine, and it’s not an option now.
I can’t bear the thought of walking away from him again and am desperate for another option, but I don’t know what it is. Thanks for listening. :(
Anonymous
You’ve posted about this before right? And said he wasn’t treating you well? And you talked to him about it and he didn’t want to change? This guy is not right for you and you need to MOVE ON. The only way to do that is to have no contact with him until you’re really over him. Maybe some day you will wake up and not care about him and then you can have a friendly relationship (although I question whether this is even a human being worth being friends with). But that has to come when you’re really and truly over him, which you’re never going to get if you’re trying to be friends with him now and letting him mess with your head. Don’t see him. It will inevitably end badly. Email or text him back to let him know you can’t make it and then block him on all forms of communication (I’m pretty sure a lot of people told you to do this before….). Tell at least one IRL friend what’s going on so she can literally take your phone away from you, which nobody here can do.
And pleeeeeeease don’t try to justify this with “no one compares.” You broke up with this guy, what 3 or 4 months ago? So you’ve gone on a handful of dates with a handful of guys since then? Of course nobody is going to sweep you off your feet in that short time span, when you still have deep feelings for someone else. Getting over breakups takes time, in many cases way more than a few months. You don’t get to give up on the male population as a whole just because you haven’t yet met someone who made you get over this guy instantly.
CountC
+1 – I replied below in the wrong place, but I completely agree that you need to cut off all contact and remove him from your life or you will never be able to move on. Also agree that the reason you can’t find anyone else you want to date is because you are still pining over this dude and are not willing to give anyone the space to be that person.
plum
Yes, I have posted about it before, and that is basically the situation. I know I have been kind of pathetic about not being able to move on…it’s the advice I would give to anyone else in my shoes. Thanks for the comment/advice.
BeenThatGuy
Not pathetic. You’re human. Hugs.
emeralds
I have to agree with this. You told him what you needed, and he can’t or won’t be that. I promise you with complete certainty, as a woman who spent the ages of 18-26 contorting myself into whatever shape or arrangement would fit the whims of the men I was dating (or not-dating, or “being friends with”), that the right man will not make you do this. The right man will be on the same page about prioritizing your relationship. There will be give and take, but it will not be a situation where one partner (you) compromises or changes 100% of the way, and the other partner (this dude) compromises 0%.
Also, you know this, but you’re never going to move on with your life as long as you’re still in contact with this guy. I know it still hurts. I know you still miss him, and I know the visceral fear that you will never find someone who makes you feel the way that he does. But I promise you, there is a better life three, or six, or twelve months ahead of you, free of this man. You just have to stay strong for now. It will get easier, even if it feels like it never will at this point.
plum
All true. I don’t know why I can’t feel it when I certainly think it. Thanks.
emeralds
Feelings do not listen to reason or logic, which is what makes them so powerful and so f**king hard sometimes. One of the best decisions I ever made was to NOT listen to my feelings to cancel moving abroad for a position that was extremely important to my professional development, because a man that my heart was convinced was The One would only keep dating me if I stayed put. It feels ridiculous four years and several major relationship upgrades later, but at the time it was one of the hardest things I’d ever made myself do. I sobbed for hours a day for many days. I drank too much. I hauled myself out of a lot of fetal positions on the shower floor. I got in unnecessary screaming fights with my family (I am not a screamer or a fighter). I almost flew back home two weeks after I got there. Every single feeling that I had said to go home and go back to him…but the cold, hard, rational part of my brain saved me from making what would have been a huge mistake for my career, and compromising a necessary part of myself for a man who was unwilling to give an inch back to me.
All of which to say is, sister, I have walked where you are walking. You will get through this. But the only way to get through this is to keep going on the path that you know is right, no matter how impossible your feelings are telling you that it is right now.
plum
Thanks for the support, emeralds. I’m glad you made it out.
First Year Anon
+ 1000
You need to cut off contact!
Ellen
+ 1000 I agree. An a-wipe is an a-wipe! YAY!!!
TO Lawyer
+1
it took me MONTHS to get over one of my exes. I kept going on dates and would come home in tears because no one compared to him.
Eventually, I met a man who treated me much better than he did. And we had a lovely relationship.
There is hope on the other end! You just have to get through all this crappy stuff first.
plum
Yup, this is basically how I’ve been feeling/what I’ve been doing since we broke up. Thanks for the support.
Scarlett
My advice is to stop dating while you get over him. By focusing on dating you’re more likely to stay in the NothingCompares2U loop. Take time to just get over it by doing things you enjoy for a while. I’m not talking forever, for me breakups always took closer to 6-8 months to get past before I was open to something else.
Ellen
HUGS, HUGS and More HUGS. It is VERY difficult when you think you have FOUND and lost a decent guy, especially when other guy’s you have met so far have NOT measured up in total. But you need NOT to make any critical decision’s NOW that are world changeing, b/c beleive it or not, there ARE other guy’s out there, and one day, you will find the right guy that meet’s more of your mutual criteria. For the mean time, do NOT let the heat of the moment cause you to say/do the wrong thing. Play it light, and DO enjoy the weekend. And it is NOT a booty call, btw, b/c you just need to figure thing’s out, but do NOT let the sex cloud your good judgement.
All the HIVE wishes you well on what is certainly a difficult situeation. Just remember that there ARE other fish in the sea. You may need to convince yourself to wait for another one. Have a great weekend to the ENTIRE HIVE! YAY!!!!
Killer Kitten Heels
plum, seriously – why do you keep doing this to yourself? You’re willingly torturing yourself emotionally because, what, the guy’s a good conversationalist? Is it the “garden parties”? He’s only a total a$$hat to you sometimes, instead of all the time like past losers you’ve dated?
There’s literally nothing salvageable here. Nothing. You told him what you need, he said no. What else is there? HE REFUSES TO BE THE PARTNER YOU WANT/NEED. There’s no version of the world where that changes just because you’re super-patient and stick by him while he moves away from you, or upend your own life just to live near him (even though he just told you he won’t commit to you?!? what even?!). Get a therapist, and get some self-respect. Melodrama is not love. Hot/cold push-me-pull-you BS is not love. Refusing to commit to you (while, presumably, still wanting to occasionally do you/use you as an emotional sounding board/punching bag) is NOT LOVE.
I get why you’re into this relationship – the drama of it all allows you to ignore your own very real, very unresolved problems with self-esteem and self-respect, and you get to sell yourself a fantasy about how your whole life would be just awesome and perfect if only this one thing would work out. But enough of this. Stop ignoring the very real, very significant inner work you need to do, find a competent therapist, and learn to love *yourself* the way you deserve to be loved, instead of throwing your life away on some guy who doesn’t want you hoping that his love will be the magical potion that heals you.
Anonymous
THISSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS. OMG.
plum
Ouch, ouch, ouch, but you are right all around.
I did start seeing a therapist a couple months ago, for the first time in my life, so I don’t know how to judge whether she is competent. Her perspective is that I know this is a dead end but I don’t seem ready to drop it, and she doesn’t want to tell me what to do because that’s not her role and anyway people don’t listen.
Killer Kitten Heels
You might need a more proactive therapist. Consider looking for someone who specializes in CBT and/or EMDR. While it can feel good to just show up and vomit feelings all over someone for an hour, at some point you have to actually start doing stuff to, you know, actually improve your mental health. If this therapist is more of the “sit back and listen” type, she may not be the right person to help you, because (if your posts here are any indication) you’ll just talk yourself in circles endlessly if left to your own devices, which won’t really improve anything.
plum
Thanks. She does make suggestions for things for me to think about, which are often perspectives that wouldn’t have occurred to me on my own, but she certainly isn’t like “OMG, time to stop imagining that this relationship was good for you and start figuring out how you can stop longing for it.”
Monday
I think both your therapist and Killer Kitten Heels are right. You know what to do, and when you’re ready, you’ll do it. But in the meantime, DO NOT make any decisions that aren’t easily reversible–like moving for him.
plum
Thanks. I’m not actually going to move for him, despite the fact that I said I wanted to. I just…am really flailing to find any way to avoid walking away right now. (Bad, I know, I promise I am hearing what everyone, including the voice inside my head is saying.)
CountC
The way to avoid walking away again is, as someone has already said, to not walk towards. Cancel this meeting immediately. It’s not remotely helpful for you and it’s not going to tell you anything you don’t already know.
Anonymous
Not plum, but I needed to hear this.
plum
I’m sorry I’m not the only one struggling through this but it does make me feel less alone/pathetic.
Monday
Are you kidding, plum? I think the reason so many responses on this thread are long and passionate is that just about all of us have been in this situation. I sure have. Everybody is talking to her former self, and the clarity and conviction of all these comments have come with time. Very, very few people manage to make the clean break, once and only once, that everyone is recommending. It’s absolutely the right thing to do, but it rarely happens because it is so unbelievably hard.
Killer Kitten Heels
+1 to Monday.
plum, part of the reason I am being so tough on you is because, when I was 22/23, I was you. Moping around after some guy who didn’t actually want me/love me but claimed to be my “best friend,” halfheartedly dating other guys who also didn’t actually want me/love me (or, at least, want or love me enough to treat me well). And when I was 24, my “best friend” who I was sure was “the best thing that had ever happened to me” called me and told me he wanted to be with me. Then called me and told me two days later that actually, whoops, no, he wasn’t going to be with me, he was marrying his g/f *who had just given birth to his child.* I didn’t even know he had a g/f, never mind a pregnant one. And I *still* talked to him for six more months, and I *still* continued my relationship with a mean loser for eight more months, because I thought it was the best I could do.
And then I got a stern talking-to (not unlike what I just wrote to you) from a smart and beloved friend, and then I got therapist and stopped talking to all the losers and spent a bunch of time focusing on what I wanted to do and who I wanted to be (outside of romantic relationships) and doing things to support and take care of myself in those endeavors. By the time I was 26, I was dating the man who would become my husband. There’s hope beyond this guy, but you’re never going to get there if you don’t start aggressively taking care of and protecting your own emotional health.
plum
Thanks Monday and KKH. Unfortunately I am not 24 anymore so my excuse is not as good! :) I hear the wisdom in what everyone is saying, I just have to get it to sink into my heart instead of just my brain.
Killer Kitten Heels
plum, if you’re waiting for it to sink into your heart while continuing to act the way you’re acting, it’s never going to work. You need to (temporarily) put your brain in charge. Do what your brain says, heart be d@mned. Listen to your brain long enough, and your heart will follow.
been there
+2 to Monday. So many of us have been there. Hind sight is 20-20 and it’s much easier to recognize it in someone else’s situation than your own, but we are all saying these things because we’ve come out on the other side.
Don’t feel pathetic. You are not the only person who has experienced this. But don’t wallow in it! Struggle through it- don’t continue to languish in it just because other people have struggled as well. You’ve got to do the hard work to move past it.
It WILL get better. No contact is the only way to do it. Do not entertain ideas that this person can still be a part of your life in some way while not meeting your needs. I’ve struggled with this wrt more than one dude, but I’ll detail the most egregious example:
I was involved in a patently absurd “relationship” with some f**k boi a few years ago. I knew it was ridiculous, I knew it wasn’t meeting all my needs. I never thought it would work out, but I also “loved our connection,” and “wanted him to be a part of my life, no matter what form.” “It would be hard to navigate, but we’d figure it out.” Barf barf barf. All that did was prevent me from being emotionally available to better dudes and from taking care of myself. But we were so attached to each other that the idea of cutting him out seemed unbearable. I was in a bad place in my life and desperate to connect to someone emotionally. Finally I snapped. I cut him off and we didn’t talk for a year. It was SO HARD. Then another year went by, and we started texting intermittently. I cared less. I started really internalizing the idea that he was a wretched person/bad partner- not just intellectually acknowledging it. Then I didn’t care. Now, it’s been 2.5 years since we stopped talking (other than random “hellos”). I don’t care at all. My heart no longer leaps at his texts. It rolls its eyes. He wanted to get lunch the other day and I agreed (we have professional connections). I canceled at the last minute because I just didn’t want to. I wanted to read the NYT and answer emails. I didn’t go so as to avoid hurting his precious man-feelings, or out of curiosity, or to get some emotional satisfaction. I just didn’t f’ing want to. The thought of seeing him, watching him eat, knowing what a terrible person he is, made me feel gross.
I’ll sound like a televangelist, but: IT CAN HAPPEN FOR YOU!!!! You *can* get over this guy. Start now.
Anonymous
WTF girl. You broke up because you don’t work. Call and cancel this stupid meet up that is essentially picking a scab. If you don’t want to keep walking away from him stop walking towards him. Say good bye, delete his numbers, unfriend him, and commence a new life in which you have no contact with him because he is bad for you. Be a grown up lady. It is harder and more fun.
Anonymous
I actually don’t recommend deleting the number. Instead, rename exes/those you no longer want to communicate with to “*%&* fka _” with the symbols being whatever negative term you want. That way, a) you don’t answer when he contacts you and b) if you’re tempted you communicate, you see the name and it reminds you.
Two Cents
Run far far away from him. Seriously, you are so much better than this! You broke up with him for a reason (or several reasons). Write those down. Every time you are tempted to reach out to him, re-read that list.
plum
That’s a good idea…I will do that. The reasons we broke up feel far away right now because I’m not actually in a relationship with him, but I know they would quickly become apparent again if we got back together.
Anonymous
And text him right now and cancel.
Badlands
Human nature tends to have us forget the bad things and remember/romanticize the good things. I think its a pretty typical stage of a break-up. So, you just need to power thru and remind yourself of how bad the bad was and that you had good reasons for breaking up.
Anon
Yes, do this. We actually did this with/for a roommate in college (it was a big rooming group). A list of things that s*cked about Terrible Ex. And we posted it on the bathroom wall so she had to see it all the time.
It worked. They didn’t get back together. She is happily married to someone else and so successful in life.
MargaretO
Similar advice I got from a therapist after a nuclear level disaster breakup: make a list of 10 things you want in a future relationship that you couldn’t have with your ex. Big things, tiny thing, anything you want from a relationship that he would never ever give to you. Look at that list whenever you are feeling tempted to talk to him or when you miss him, and remind yourself that you deserve to have all of those things.
plum
There are a bunch of these things! I gladly would’ve given many of them up to be with him…but they definitely exist. I will do this, too. Thanks.
Anonymous
You’d give up your hopes and dreams for a man who doesn’t treat you well? Stop dating until you figure that out.
plum
Not major hopes and dreams, no. But littler things, yes.
Anonymous
I get it, I have been there. I never realized that I could be so pathetic before that – I knew it I was being an idiot as I’m sure you do too, but certain people can have an awful power over you. Please stop torturing yourself. Please don’t see him again. Defriend him, block his number, etc. It will be hard, but it will get better eventually. There are other people out there, even though it doesn’t seem like it. I struggled for quite some time, to be very honest — but throw yourself into new hobbies, plan a trip, start casually dating in a month or two, etc. In a year, you will not feel the same way.
plum
Yes, this comment is exactly me. I never imagined I could be so pathetic over a guy (I never have been like this in my life). And it is really torturing me. Thanks.
Senior Attorney
So, so, much what KKH says.
You have literally told him what you need, and he has literally told you he will not/cannot provide it. End of discussion.
You have two jobs right now: First, to cut off all contact with him and break the attachment to him so you can move forward in your life. Second, keep going to therapy and work on all those awful self-esteem issues that are keeping you from doing the first thing.
I was you. When I grew up my family was crazy and I learned early on that “people who love you treat you badly.” So that’s what I thought love was, and I also thought “If I can be good enough, or nice enough, or thin enough (ouch!), then maybe I can make this man who treats me badly like my mother did love me like my mother didn’t.” It took a very long time and a lot of therapy, but finally I learned that those internalized childhood lessons were just plain wrong.
It took me three tries to leave my horrible husband. And the first two times, a year after I went back I thought “Oh, man. Here I am again, miserable in this awful relationship. If I’d just stuck it out I’d be a year out and probably over him by now.” The third time I stuck it out and it was indescribably horrible, but I kept telling myself “the only way out is through” and over time it got less awful and then it got better.
And then? It got great. I met somebody who actually treats me with kindness and respect and lo and behold we are getting married in three months. Swear to God I still pinch myself every day, and I still just cannot believe that there are people and relationships in this world that are lovely and affirming and drama-free. But there are. You just have to get yourself into a place where you can find and appreciate them.
plum
Thanks, SA. I know it is crazy that I literally asked for what I needed, he literally told me he wouldn’t/couldn’t give it to me…and I’m still craving some way to make it work. It doesn’t make any sense that this is my reaction, and I’ve never been like that before or in other areas of my life.
Also, ahhhh, so much of what you said resonates with me, from my crappy/crazy family to feeling like there’s a way to be good enough to make things different. I am a therapy novice, but is there some lesson/technique/topic that’s somewhat transferable to get where I need to go faster?
Anon Therapized Person
I’m not SA, but I had success working through childhood stuff (fairly) quickly with EMDR. It’s a technique for processing trauma that sounds totally weird and unlikely to work when you read about it, but does, in actual practice, work.
Senior Attorney
I wish I knew. I felt like my therapist wasn’t nearly proactive enough, to be honest. I’m still pretty mad at him for not just coming out and saying — YEARS earlier — “This is an abusive relationship and you need to get out!”
I’ve heard good things about EMDR.
nutella
Hey plum, Senior Attorney is right. (Isn’t she always?)
Here’s another idea for you: bookmark this thread and keep it in your tabs on your personal computer at home and read it ALL.THE.TIME. until you can find a therapist that is more proactive because I’m pretty sure everyone here is telling you what a passive therapist can’t.
Also, like so many others, I have been in your shoes. And it was from like age 22-27, I’m embarrassed to say. Also felt like no one could possibly compare to him blah blah blah. I went on dates because my friend forced me to sign up for OK Cupid and told me to look at it as practice because I hadn’t been on a date in ages. I looked at it as babysteps: if I could enjoy someone’s company for the date (even if it meant I wasn’t ready to love them forever and ever), I’d consider it a success and count towards my ‘practice’ at dating again. Then it became a step towards progress to be attracted to someone new, then to want to go on a second date. It took a couple of 6-weeker duds to find THE ONE, who is now my fiance.
You already know this but sometimes it helps to read this and to be your own best friend (since you acknowledge you’d say this to your friend), but the right one for you doesn’t make you feel like sh!t. It’s easy. EASY. And it’s not “well it’s easy when he’s not doing X” or “it’s great most of the time.” Here’s a hint, when you are spending more of your time hashing out problems with your dude with your friends, it’s not “easy.” I know you think it is the best relationship and your best friend; I did, too. But I also knew deep down that someone who truly loved me and wanted the best for me (as I would for my best friend and partner) wouldn’t string me along. Wouldn’t make me his second choice. Wouldn’t confide in me for heavy stuff only to date other girls and act surprised that I was upset. Wouldn’t rely on me for emotional support through the bar exam omg only to tell me he knew I loved him but that he didn’t feel the same way. What an a$$hole. (Insert your facts here, but they are all the same to all of us. Oh! I almost moved for him, too! HAAAA!)
But here’s your motivation. One day, you will find someone who wants to give you all his heart. And you will want to give him all of yours. You know how you’ve been upset before by someone else’s baggage and issues? You won’t want to give him your heart with all your baggage of some a$%hole either. That’s what happened to me. It was like being in water for the first time, someone can describe what it is and what it feels like but you don’t know it until you’re in it and that made me realize that what I thought was ‘love’ with this POS was ridiculously anything but. Real love is someone loving you no matter what. Not depending on the circumstances. Real love is someone growing alongside you and being your partner, not abandoning you to go develop on his own and come to you when he needs it. Real love is easy and effortless and you can’t understand why because it’s so wonderful and huge and incredible and how can it be so just easy to just be? It just is. Like the cliches say, you know it when you see it. And you will know it, just like I did. Tell yourself that you deserve that because you do. And tell yourself that that guy you can’t even fathom right now deserves you, because he does. And when I had real love I didn’t want him to be hurt at all by some guy waltzing in expecting to get my emotional support. No. I didn’t want him to get anything less than 100% of my love and my heart and that meant not a drop wasted on anyone else.
Work on making yourself happy. I know that is hard – trust me, I went to some sad dark places, too. But consider it an investment on your future and your happiness and your wellbeing. That starts with cutting off all contact now. Because you are only re-setting the clock again on starting clean on yourself.
This was long, but girl. It gets better. So unimaginably better.
Senior Attorney
Awww, nutella!!
If you were here right now I’d hug you and kiss you and high five you and buy you a drink!!!
plum
Yes, a lot of what you said applies closely to my former relationship. Thanks for writing.
Sydney Bristow
You were strong enough to tell him what you needed even though you didn’t think you could. You were strong enough to walk away even though you didn’t think you could.
You are strong enough to cut off contact with him now even though you don’t think you can.
It’s time now to summon up 20 seconds of courage…just be brave for 20 seconds, focus only on that 20 seconds and absolutely nothing it the future…and text him to say you can’t see him. You can do this. You are stronger than you think.
ArenKay
This. So much this. Please cancel this meet up; it will do nothing good for you. (And add me as a +1 who’s saying this because it’s what I needed to hear years ago.
plum
Thanks. God, I want to see him, but I will cancel when I get off work and can cry about it in the privacy of my own apartment.
For Plum, etc.
Rather than engaging the head vs heart battle happening (since you already know your head needs to win this one for you to have a happily ever after in the future), why not make a playlist of songs to either actually keep on repeat or to mentally play any time you’re feeling the tug of the heart? Things like “My Give a d*mn’s busted” by Jo Dee Messina, “Stepping Stone” by Lari White, “There’s More to me than you” by Jessica Andrews, etc.
Then just have the list on your phone for your drive, headphones to listen to it at work, the ability to listen at home, etc. any time you need it… sing along as loud as you can where you can and your body will start to hear you and the message louder than it hears your heart’s struggle to let go of the familiarity of this guy.
As for therapy misc., before dropping your therapist, send an email or talk to your therapist. Let her know you need a stronger touch on things and you want to be more proactive. Tell her your goal and that you are willing to devote more time to homework or more money for treatment options if necessary but not to go soft with you. Some clients need baby steps to stick around and show up each week, so if you tell her you’re all in on this process and she should go harder on you where you need it, she’ll be better able to help you. If she can’t, then talk with her about moving on, but give her a shot first since she may just need to know what you want in order to give it to you.
CountC
I am sorry that you are feeling this way. However, ignoring that you are willing to accept the bad things (which I am staunchly opposted to btw), he has told you and made it pretty clear that he is not going to commit to you. Listen to him. Moving and his new job are his priorities, not you. If he wanted to be with you, he would find a way to make it work. He may miss you, which is causing him to want to string you a long to keep you waiting in the wings for when/if he changes his mind, but that is disrespectful to you and you should not be willing to accept that. You are allowed and should ask for what you need in relationships, but you have to accept that some people who you care about will not be able to meet those needs. You should not compromise on what you need because I can gaurantee it will not end well.
CountC
GAH – reply to plum- EDITTTTTTT I miss you.
plum
Thanks, CountC. You are right, he can’t and/or is not interested in meeting my needs.
CountC
You’re welcome. Remember, having reasnonable needs in a relationship (which asking for a commitment certainly is!) doesn’t make you needy or mean there is anything wrong with you. I encourage you to work on self-esteem and self-respect with whichever therapist you end up deciding to work with.
Anony
I’m interested in stories from people who have left biglaw to go to less “prestigious” firms. I’m a midlevel at a fancypants biglaw firm and just accepted a job at a smaller firm in the lower half of AmLaw 200’s list because of lower hours requirements, firm culture, and what I believe is a legitimately better chance at partnership. My coworkers at my current firm are convinced I’m throwing away my career and have been pretty vocal about saying so. Personally I think this move is the right thing to do, but it’s still pretty discouraging to hear people who think I’m ruining my future. I could use some encouraging stories of people who have left bigger, higher-paying firms for smaller options.
Anonymous
hahahahaha only in the biggest of Big Law is going to a firm in the the lower half of the AmLaw 200 “throwing away your career.” Newsflash: you are not leaving Big Law. You may be leaving the Vault 5 or whatever, but you are still going to be in Big Law. And you are certainly still going to be at a prestigious firm. You will still have a million exit options from this new firm, even if you have a million and one at your current firm. It’s not like you’re going to a three person firm. Your co-workers are jealous, probably.
Killer Kitten Heels
If your career goal is “partner at an AmLaw 200 firm,” and your new job is a better path to that career goal, then I’d say you’re actually running your career like a boss. The “throwing away your career” thing is a myth sold by the biggest/fanciest firms, to justify their abuse of the rank-and-file. It’s like any abusive relationship – the abuser brainwashes the abusee into believing that they have to stay with the abuser, because it’s the best they’ll ever do, and everyone else is also abusive, so hey, might as well be with the best possible abuser, right? It’s bull. If your goal is law firm partner, you need to go to a firm where you have a real chance at partnership. Doing that is pretty much the complete opposite of “throwing your career away.” (Also, you’re going to an AmLaw 200 firm – that’s the average young lawyer’s actual dream goal. It’s not like you’re leaving to open a cupcake shop or something. Your current colleagues sound super-douchey.)
Anonymous
It’s possible they’re just trying to justify their miserable BigLaw existence to themselves with “prestige.” I don’t think a firm still in the AmLaw 200 list is in anyway not prestigious. And you probably do have a legitimately better chance at partnership. Just ignore them.
Wow
That’s all BS. You will always have your fancy law firm on your resume, no one can take that away from you or the experience that you acquired there. Your colleagues are being overly dramatic.
CPA Lady
People who have drunk the Biglaw koolaid will tell you that you are throwing away your career, because the only choice they can imagine being the right one is the one they have made. Either because they honestly believe it or because they have to keep telling themselves that so they can handle the Biglaw hours and the culture. If the only thing they’ve got keeping them there is the “prestige” and thinking they’re better and smarter and work harder than other people, (because they work 80-90 hours a week and dont have time for anything else), then it’s really hard to admit that there can be other options.
As a non-lawyer, I can tell you, I dont even know what big law vs mid law is, and I dont give a rat’s butt if my friends are biglaw lawyers or midlaw. There is no difference in my mind, so if you’re going to stay in a career you dont like because of what other people think, then I just want to let you know that the vast majority of people dont even know what you’re talking about. They just know that you are a lawyer and lawyers are fancy. And if you want the opinion of a bunch of lawyers, just know that all your future coworkers will not think you are a failure who is ruining your future.
Multiple old coworkers of mine told me that I shouldn’t leave public accounting and that I would be “so bored” in my new job and want to come running back. It really messed with my head for a while. But you know what? They were wrong and my life is immensely better now.
anon
I can’t say this from an atty’s perspective, but I have been a biglaw paralegal at top Vault firms (V5 or higher) and also at well-respected, further down the AMLAW firms. Over the years, I have watched many of my beloved attorneys leave. Invariably, everyone at the departing firm has drunk the Kool-Aid that rankings matter so much and you will never be a “great” attorney unless you stay at the prestigious firm that treats its associates (and paralegals, natch) as punching bags. They are generally incorrect.
It’s not true! So many of my attorneys have done so many great things at other “lesser” firms or in house. They made the right decisions for them. They had a spidey sense that staying at prestigious firm was not right for them. Many of them have gone on to become GCs, AGCs, partners at these other “lesser” firms and a few of them have even transitioned into business-side roles and become high-level execs. The people who are telling you “It’s a mistake!” are either jealous or they don’t even have enough perspective to actually know enough about the real contours and ramifications of your decision. They don’t have the gumption to leave themselves! You did it! You cut the cord!
I would also add that in many cases, you can have a bit of an “aura” about you for having come from prestigious firms to these other “lesser” places. You may or may not actually be better trained than the home-grown folks, but you will certainly have good training, and you did your career the right way (big to smaller), since smaller-to-big is much harder to achieve. You can actually get a bump in “office respect” or in the hierarchy of associates by lateralling.
At one firm I was at, the partners in my group would scoff at ANY decision that any associate made, no matter how logical (better commute, had to move for partner, etc.) because they truly could not take the “rejection” (which is completely normal!) of an associate moving on from their biglaw shop. I am willing to bet that this is way more of a reflection on your colleagues than it is you!
I will say that some of my attorneys have missed the resources and training and precedents that they had at big prestigious firm, but they did not miss the politics and other BS that made them choose the new culture over the old. It will be different–some good, some bad. But it is likely the right thing for you. You are making an informed choice. You got this! Having a work culture that is more conducive to you can immeasurably impact your quality of life.
You will be surprised, but I bet some of your colleagues will have exploratory lunches in the near term to “see how it’s going.” This is because they want to go too. I’ve seen it so many times. Trust. It’s gonna be fine.
SW
Great response!
Anon
As not OP but making a similar move, this is so comforting to hear. Thank you.
Anonymous
I did it last year. Pay cut, less prestige, and now I don’t hate my life. I was mediocre at big law. I rock here. It’s amazing.
Betty
This is one of my favorite lies that biglaw sells: Leave to go ANYWHERE else and you are throwing your career, life and all the hard work you’ve put into both away, never to be seen again. Biglaw is a lot like depression, it lies and kills your inner sense of worth. Its a lie perpetuated by those who haven’t left to justify their existence. Harsh, yes, but also the truth. You can leave, there is a better world out there.
My fav biglaw partner once confided in me (one a two hour road trip) that when he saw people who had left the firm, they always looked like they had life back in them again: happier, healthier and enjoying the practice of law.
I left biglaw to clerk and then went in house. I carry the biglaw name with me on my resume and enjoy throwing it around on occasion, but with the life I have now, I would never go back.
TBK
What?! No, this is how it works. Firms can only take a tiny fraction of their associates on as partners (and fewer and fewer it seems every year). And that decision is as much about culture and business needs as the quality of the attorney (more, probably). So tons and tons of exceptional lawyers leave the V5 or V10 or whatever firms every year to “move down” for better prospects. That’s the game. Even partners “move down” sometimes to get more control, a bigger share of profits, better clients, lower business development expectations, etc. If an AmLaw 200 firm is making partner noises at you, and if you like the firm (as in you actually think you want to be partners with these people, and put your career and income in their hands), then go for it!
Anon for this
I left BigLaw for MidLaw (and not on the AMLaw 200, either). I ended up being offered a fantastic in-house position with tons of room for eventual growth less than 2 years later. Now I am genuinely happy at work for the first time since I started working as an attorney. Ignore them, they’re jealous. Also, I’ve found in both of my transitions that I sparked a trend in my department…seeing other people break out of the BigLaw or Bust mentality frequently helps prod others to stop working long enough to think about what they really want.
I did this
I did this and it was awesome. Not much of an overall paycut, and I was likely making more per hour at the less prestigious firm. My normal day was 9 to 7:30 pm (with occasional longer nights) and I worked probably 1 weekend a year. I tended to bill about 1950 hours and the partners I worked for were pretty awesome. They were respectful of associate time and actually serious about associate development and helping associates make partner. Of course, profits per partner was less than at the more prestigious firm, but the partners all worked pretty normal hours, got along really well, and many of them had come from more prestigious firms where they were not happy with the culture. And their billing rates were less than at the more prestigious firm, which made business development much easier for junior partners.
I only left (instead of staying and trying to make partner) because a dream job opportunity fell in my lap (in-house at a trade association), and they could care less that I was at a somewhat less prestigious firm. What mattered was that I was doing high-level work that related to their business.
H
Totally depends what you want. Do YOU care that you are at a less prestigious firm even though there might be more opportunity? Are you going to enjoy your entire life better due to the less hours requirement? Presumably you are taking this job because you want to do more outside of work. You’re not throwing anything away; you’ve probably learned a lot at your current firm and can use your past experience for future work. And just because you’re at a less prestigious firm doesn’t mean you can’t build a name for yourself and have interesting and/or high profile clients.
Bailey270
Agree with everyone else that you should ignore this, and that you can do great things at a (slightly) less prestigious firm, or after having worked at one.
I left a top 50 firm as a senior associate (with no chances of, or desire for, partnership at the firm) to take a less prestigious/less lucrative job in the government/SRO/regulator area (being vague here). My BigLaw training meant that here, instead of being an average associate, I am getting great reviews and my legal acumen is respected. I’ve gotten opportunities to do work that I would have never gotten if I had stayed at my Biglaw firm, and I’ve done well with those opportunities. And, in the two years or so since I’ve been in this job, I’ve been approached for in-house positions and even for counsel/partner-track positions back in BigLaw, which I’m confident that I would not have gotten if I had stayed at my BigLaw firm.
For me, there were many moments of doubts in my first few months in my new job, but once I adjusted to the new atmosphere, expectations and people (and, in my case, the significantly decreased salary and lots more free time), I’m so happy I made the change. I hope that you don’t worry too much, throw yourself into your new opportunity, and that in 6 months or a year, you feel the same way.
ChiLaw
I left BigLaw for something much less prestigious (think like a do-gooding fellowship) then ended up bopping around some truly small firms (where I got much more practical litigation experience than was available at my BigLaw post), and now I have a great job that I love (AGC at a nonprofit), and I feel like my *~Career~* finally makes sense, and looks like I want it to look. But… my dad in particular was devastated when I told him I was quitting BigLaw (this was on the heels of days and days of migraines and… well, i imagine you know the deal) and my BigLaw friends thought I was nuts. Now only two of those friends are still in BigLaw; the rest are in-house, working for a think tank, teaching, etc. They’re doing very well for themselves, AND they get weekends off. And my dad, ha, is super proud of where I’ve ended up.
You only get this one brief life, don’t spend it unhappy and trying to live up to someone else’s standards!
Pants?
Happy Friday! I am looking for some non-frumpy chino/khaki-type pants I can wear to the office on Fridays (I could wear jeans, but don’t like wearing them in the summer). I am a skinny-pear, I guess – pants are often loose on the waist but tight across the hips, and I often wear a 0/2 on top but a 6 on bottom – so a style that accommodates that is ideal (or is that something a tailor can fix?).
TrishaT
These are kind of out there but I liked the pair I bought last year:
http://www.landsend.com/pp/StylePage-453784_AL.html
CountC
Honestly, I think all chino/khaki-type pants look frumpy, but if you must check places like JCrew for ones that are slightly fitted and boot cut or are skinny ankle cut (if those exist). I am shaped like you (what fits my legs/hips does not fit my waist) and I suggest as an alternative, the Jcrew Minnie (or Old Navy Pixie) pants which I buy on Poshmark and eBay at reduced prices. They are great for the summer IMO.
Anonymous
Try Gap. I’m wearing a pair of their girlfriend chinos right now. They’re very soft and fit well.
An
I like the BR Sloan ankle pant.
yes
I am exactly your size. Finding pants is very hard. Right now I have no spring summer pants that look nice for work except wide leg tailored trousers (waist taken in) that are quite dressy. All of my more casual pants are either too big, or stretchy and just a little too tight in the butt. Too big looks unflattering since my top is so tiny. Chino’s are definitely frumpy, with a terrible cut for us.
Tailored pants, with a bit of stretch, and a trace of a flare at the bottom. Pants that taper at the bottom are bad. Mid-rise are best.
Maybe buy some casual skirts?
AlsoAPair
If you’re looking for casual trousers and not chinos in particular try the Halogen Taylor fit at Nordstrom. I got some angle pants there that fit pear-shaped-me well.
Delta Dawn
I like the Old Navy pixie pant for this– they also come in fun colors in a chino fabric. If you do need to tailor them, buy them to fit your hips and have a tailor take in a dart on each side of the back waistband.
B
Old Navy pixie chino pant! I am more hourglassy than pear, but the pixie chino ankles pants fit both my waist and hips nicely. I’m a 2/4 and the 4 fit is snug, but not tight. I’d maybe size up one size, and possibly try more than one pant of the same size (in my experience the sizing is really inconsistent. My coral ones are tighter than my navy ones in exactly the same cut/style/size)
Anon 245
Help. After several years in an intense job that I enjoy but do not have serious leadership aspirations in, I am at a dead end. I’m mid-30s, so I’m not looking at entry level opportunities. I dont want to be partner. I don’t even want to be a few levels below that. I am pretty strict about enforcing boundaries between work and personal life, and I know this has kept me from advancing, but I don’t care. But I’m going to work for 30 more years, and I already feel like I’ve exhausted this career path unless I’m willing to give up my personal life.
What do I do? Has anyone been in this position? I’m not a lawyer, but I work in a profession with similarly structured organizations.
DC Anon
Sounds like it’s time to go in-house. In my experience, in-house moves work best when you’ve networked enough to have an idea of the specific culture and personalities at the in-house opportunity. The nightmare in-house moves are generally ones that people make without having a great idea of what it’s like to actually work in that legal department.
Also, can you challenge the idea that you’re going to work for 30 more years? Are there ways that you can look at your spending/saving to increase the amount you’re putting away? Move closer to work, live in a smaller place, drive less (or get rid of your car), pack lunch more often, do a year where you don’t buy any unnecessary clothing, etc.? Intense jobs tend to come with intense paychecks, so you may have more room to increase savings than you think. Just a suggestion from my own experience. I’m a lawyer and have found a lot more satisfaction job-wise since I discovered I could become financially independent by 45 if I ramped up my savings. It’s easier to think about working 10 more years as opposed to 30.
The other thing is that if you can sock away a bunch of money in savings over the next few years, maybe that then frees you to take a pay cut to do something else you’re more interested in. Or you could downshift into a less intense work environment and spend your increased free time trying to figure out what job you would want to do if you could switch career paths. Ideas include doing volunteer work in an area you’re interested in, taking a couple classes at a local college, getting lunch with friends or professional contacts and asking them about their jobs, etc.
Bar Prep Advice
Ladies, HELP! Barbri is throwing so much stuff at me that I don’t have time to absorb any of it. I am already behind. If I spend more time to absorb stuff, then I get behind on new stuff. If I don’t absorb the current stuff, I take diagnostics, get stuff I don’t know yet wrong, and then they throw extra homework at me. I feel like I can’t win/drowning from drinking from fire hose?
Does anyone know how to hack BarBri so that it’s not a crazy whirlwind barrage of legal concept that you are supposed to grasp as they whiz by ?
Please tell me that it’s gonna click. We are just past Week 2, so I am not freaking out completely yet….
Anonymous
Watch only the subject lectures and watch them at 1.25 or 1.5 speed. Skip all the lectures where they explain the answers to practice tests (much faster to just review the answer yourself from the book). Try to keep pace with the course. You’re going to feel like you’re not absorbing it, but somewhere along the line it will “click” (and even if it doesn’t, you’ll probably still pass the bar).
Anonymous
Oh and I didn’t do any of that assigned “homework” (which is relatively new – I took Barbri in 2010 and 2016 and it wasn’t there in 2010) and I passed the bar and I think by a pretty big margin (I killed the MBE).
AttiredAttorney
This this this. I did Barbri while working full time and still passed. Watch only the subject lectures (and at 1.25 or 1.5 speed), but do all the practice question sets. Skip everything else.
meow
This is what I did, took and passed 1st time last summer. Also, if you are taking the UBE, relax. If you’re taking California, I’m sorry.
Anon
So, it’s been a laughably long time since I did bar prep (my school had a rather infamous boot camp style of 8 hour days of lecture)
Anyway, it will absolutely click. You’re just starting out. Keep reviewing topics and question patterns that you recognize to be tricky. Remember to breathe, everyone else is feeling the panic as well.
I used a flash card method for the subjects I was weakest in, but I realize not all learning patterns are the same.
Anonymous
I watched the videos and completed the handouts. I did practice questions when assigned but that was it. I passed (NY) on the first try. You’ll be fine.
Anonymous
You aren’t supposed to absorb, grasp, or engaged with the concepts. You are not learning law you are passing a test. Watch your lectures, fill in the notes, condense those note into an outline, and do some fraction of the daily assigned practice everyday. That’s it.
You cannot afford to get behind. You don’t have time at the end to catch up. You must keep pace even if you don’t feel like you are fully there.
Anonymous
Focus on the MBE, especially if you’re in a state where it’s 50% of your score. It’s hard to fail if you do well on the MBE, because you’re going to pick up at least a few points on the essays no matter what.
Anon
Bar Bri gives you way more stuff than any person can actually do. Absolutely 100% watch the daily lectures (on 1.25-1.5 speed as advised above). Do as many MBE questions as you possibly can – absolutely do not watch lectures on the answers. Shoot to do at least one to two practice essays a week, but don’t actually write out the whole essay, just do an outline (So if you were going to write “The elements of battery are X, Y, and Z. X is present in this case because A did B to C” just write “Elements: XYZ, In this case: A B’d C.”). The essays are graded with a checklist and you get points for addressing items on the list, so there is no need to write out full paragraphs for every practice essay, although I would do at least a couple full writeouts at some point before the bar exam.
Gail the Goldfish
I took one look at Barbri’s schedule, laughed, and proceeded to ignore it because it was totally unrealistic for me and I knew I’d burn out. I watched the videos (sped up) to fill in the handouts and then worked on memorizing what I needed to memorize in the way I knew worked best for me. Here’s the key points to remember about the bar exam: 1) You don’t have to ace it, you just have to pass it and 2) If you already know how to write coherently, it’s mainly just a memory test (which of course bears no resemblance to the actual practice of law). If writing is not your strong point, figure out how to clearly and concisely explain your answers, because I straight up made up some law on my second state’s bar exam, but I had coherent arguments for it and I swear that’s why I passed (that’s also the one where I answered “I would go look up the law on [issue I have spotted] and then [coherent explanation for what I would do with that law. I passed). For my second state’s bar exam, I didn’t take Barbri, I just bought the books off someone and it worked just as well. You’ve gotten this far in school, so presumably you know what study method works best for you. Don’t try to totally adapt your methods to Barbri if that isn’t what works for you.
Anonymous
This only works if the questions ask for analysis. I was shocked when I took a bar (my second) earlier this year and many of the questions simply asked you to recite a trial rule or state the elements of a preliminary injunction. It was totally different than Barbri practice questions and totally different than my first state’s bar. Fortunately not every question was like this, and I had memorized a lot, but if I had kind of blown memorizing for the essays off as “oh well I”ll be able to get by on my critical thinking and writing skills” I think it’s likely I would have failed.
It’s worth taking a look at recent bar essay questions to get a sense of whether they’re going to be the kind of thing you can BS your way through.
Gail the Goldfish
Oh, the other tip for the bar exam: there’s going to be at least one obscure thing on there you don’t know. Don’t stress it too much. Chances are, no one else knows it either. (On one of mine, it was DUI law. Was a person who was sitting in the driver’s seat of a parked car that was running guilty of a DUI? I made something up and thought it was a ridiculous hypothetical. Couple of months after I was admitted, lo and behold, there was a story on the local news site of someone who was convicted of a DUI while sitting in the driver’s seat of a parked car.)
Elysian
Mine was the remote exceptions where convicted felons are allowed to own/possess handguns. I had a whole essay on that and had no clue such exceptions even existed. Oops. Still passed.
Emmabean
It will 100% click, and just to make you feel better, I don’t think anything clicked until maaaybe 2 weeks before the test. I felt confused and stressed the entire time, and I passed by a large margin.
Keep doing what you’re doing – stay on course, but be flexible – if you already have a good understanding of a particular subject, you can spend some time on other stuff. Don’t burn out, it’s a marathon. When my classes ended and we just had a couple of weeks left for solo study, a friend and I made a schedule so we could ensure we touched on everything.
If you can make your videos speed up, definitely do that. I was never able to figure it out. In 2011, we didn’t have any kind of extra homework, so can’t speak to that.
The Bar exam is a weird combination of incredible details and high level concepts. The trick is knowing when knowledge of each is required (i.e. you need to know the exact elements of one thing, and just some buzz words of another).
Cat
This isn’t law school — this is rote memorization. “Absorbing” is taking it a step too far. Listen to the lectures, take the notes, and do the MBE practice questions. If there’s a category you’re routinely missing, THEN go back and review again.
Killer Kitten Heels
Don’t bother with their HW routine, it’s overburdensome and unnecessary.
Personally, I did the following:
I went to a lecture (my course was in-person) every morning (M-F). Then I went home, had lunch, and vegged out for about an hour. Then I took my books to the beach or went out into my backyard and did 25-50 MBE questions with review of my wrong answers. (I actually kept a notebook where I took notes on what I got wrong.) I outlined an essay 2-3x per week, and started doing one full practice essay a week about a month before the exam. I took weekends off completely until after July 4, at which point I did practice MBEs on Saturdays. I am pretty sure I had a week or two between the end of the lectures and the exam, so during that time I used what had previously been lecture time to write out outlines of my lecture notes. I passed with points to spare on the first try (NY), and had a much better tan than most of my peers.
Anonymous
+1 to doing lots of MBE questions and making notes of what you got wrong. The same issues come up on the MBE over and over again. I actually wrote out little cheat sheets for myself based on things I kept missing on the MBE (i.e. “Absent intent, there can be no liability for trespass”). These cheat sheets were the only bar prep materials I took with me to the city where I took the test, and they were short enough that it wasn’t unwieldy or insurmountable to read through them right before going into each exam session.
Anonymous
It’s impossible for most to complete barbri. Look at their policy, they don’t even expect it.
I think it’s more important to keep pace with what’s necessary and not burn out, especially as it’s still early.
As others have said, watch things sped up. I disagree with the don’t absorb, just memorize advice, though. That’s never worked for me, just the way my brain works. If that’s true for you as well, you have to figure out the way for you to review multiple times but quickly/efficiently. I found that thought charts helped me, making a web for each topic. Also use the books they provide.
As someone who had a lot of outside stuff going on while preparing the first time (for two), I didn’t finish everything but I still passed both states by a lot.
Anonymous
Prioritize doing test questions. You should focus on test questions and only watch the basic lectures. You should learn most of your content by debriefing test questions. You want your brain to learn the material in the context of the test, not the context of the lecture.
And that is how I passed the bar while working full-time… I attended bar class for 3 hours Monday through Thursday, which included an in-person lecture probably 2 nights a week. We did test questions in class as well. And then I did test question after test question on my own. I did basically no review of content on my own time. Just test questions.
Julia
I did the opposite and passed while working full-time. I watched all of the lectures and read. I did almost no questions. I did no essays, unless that was part of the official BarBri practice test (and I don’t remember that it was). I passed with a decent margin and scored high on the essays/MPT. Know your learning style and test-taking skills/weaknesses.
WestCoast Lawyer
So when I took BarBri (many years ago in CA) there was a lecture at the beginning about how critical it is to do everything they assign and then, a few weeks before the bar exam there was a hysterical lecture with this guy who stands up and tells you about all the people who passed the bar exam despite not having picked up a book until 2 weeks before the test, failing to answer entire questions, etc.
Do as much as you can, and I agree that practice questions/essays are good because they help you get used to the format. You passed law school, so you probably already know what study/test-taking techniques work for you. Don’t change them now. Also, you don’t have to ace the bar exam, just pass it.
Ally
The only thing I have to add to this is when I would start to freak out, I would learn ONE more rule inside and out and then take a 10-15 minute break. As long as you are committing things to memory, you are doing well. Just tell yourself you are going to go as hard as you can because you are only doing this once. Don’t get on Facebook or the internet otherwise to see the fun things your friends and family are doing. This will be worth it and you don’t want to do it again. HANG IN THERE. You got this. I did half the Barbri stuff and passed top 5% and I was in the bottom 20% of my law class due to freaking out in the first semester.
SDanon
I echo what many of the other commenters have stated. First, attempt to stay on schedule with Barbri. It is hard, but it will guarantee you get through the tested content. Second, listen to lectures at 1.25 or 1.5 speed. Third, order MBE question sets off Amazon and do those in addition to Barbri. I passed the bar the first time, but I greatly wished I had spent more time going through MBE questions in addition to the MBE questions Barbri provides. Fourth, make sure to take at least half a day once a week to rejuvenate (exercise, spa, Netflix), whatever makes you relax.
Tailored
Can anyone recommend a tailor somewhere around the Philly main line? They all seem to have mixed reviews.
anon for this
The dry cleaner next to the Firestone at Bala Avenue and City Line does a nice job for an affordable price. She’s taken in my suit jackets/blazers and a few sheath dresses, and done several hem jobs. She has also done my husband’s suits (sleeves, hems, and blazer back/waist).
honeymoon
DH and I are planning (well, having our first planning conversation tonight) a September honeymoon in Europe. We’re total rookies at international travel and are blank slates as to exactly where we’d like to go. FWIW, we tend toward the lazy side of vacationing: beach-sitting, wine-drinking, book-reading, food-loving, but I’m wondering if we should try to abandon those tendencies and try some more active/urban experiences. But again, blank slate.
Any suggestions or insights would be so appreciated!
Cat
I’d recommend choosing a destination that has a mix of touristy and beachy so that (1) you feel like you got your money’s worth out of Europe vs. a closer pure-beach destination like the Caribbean, but (2) you don’t feel obligated to have busy s1te-seeing days your whole honeymoon! Think 3 days in Athens plus 5 days on Santorini or something.
Anonymous
+1 The Athens-Santorini thing was basically my honeymoon :)
I’m a very active traveler in general (although I tend to prefer beaches and mountains to cities) but there’s really something to be said for just lying around relaxing on your honeymoon. I think France and Italy are amazing honeymoon spots especially if you love food and wine and it’s easy to do a few days in a city and then head to the coast for some beaches and relaxation.
Anonymous
September is heaven on the Mediterranean, if you like beaches and wine and long lunches. I’d think of it as a formula- city in country (you’re prob going to wind up flying into one anyway) for a couple days, then add one or two seaside/countryside destinations. Athens-Santorini-Mykonos is a classic for a reason. Lisbon- leisurely drive through vineyards-Algarve coast. Paris-train to South-Aix en Provence-Nice
AnonLondon
Italy and Spain would both be lovely spots and would let you have options for both wine-drinking/beach-sitting and active/urban. Barcelona, in particular, has done very well by many of my friends who have come over from the states for honeymoons, but I’ve got another couple of friends doing a driving tour of Italy for their honeymoon around the same time you’re looking which sounds great (and lots of food/wine stops). What time frame are you working with, and what kind of budget?
An
You can always book a beach trip and add in some day trips to cultural attractions of cities. Places like Spain, the French Riviera, Italy, Greece, Croatia – lots of opportunities for beach time, wine, food, and other sights. For example, if you go to Croatia you could see Dubrovnik and hit up the beach, spend some time on the island of Hvar, and take a day trip to the Plitvices waterfalls. Or in Italy, you could spend some time in Rome and hit up the Almafi coast. Tons of wonderful options – you don’t have to stay in the same place the whole time.
emeralds
Anywhere in Southern Europe will work for you. So jealous! My top picks would be Greece (Athens + islands), Italy (Rome or Florence + Cinque Terre or Amalfi Coast), France (partial to Biarritz, the Riviera would be great too), Spain (San Sebastian, Barcelona, or Valencia), or Portugal (Lisbon + smaller town in Algarve). Which is basically all of Southern Europe, but you seriously cannot go wrong.
Anonymous
Before I read through all the replies, I was going to suggest Florence + Cinque Terre. I’ve been there before but that would still probably be my dream honeymoon.
Also, we did a bike tour of Tuscany that was amaaaaaaazing. I believe it was 18 miles round trip but it was over about 7 hours so you can do the math to figure that’s an extremely leisurely pace. I don’t think we ever biked for more than 30 minutes without a break to see sights, try gelato, take pictures, etc., and we had a three course lunch with wine in the front garden of a small family villa before heading back. There were only 4 in the group total plus our guide, so it still felt very intimate (just thinking that I don’t think I’d want a large group tour on a honeymoon). It was well worth it.
Anonymous
Our September honeymoon was to Dubrovnik and Hvar, Croatia. GORGEOUS. Would highly recommend.
(Although I’ve heard Dubrovnik has gotten a little crazy with Game of Thrones filming and such. We were there in 2012 and it wasn’t an issue.)
honeymoon
Thanks for these great responses! I’d been thinking that Italy/Spain/France might be the way to go. We’re thinking ten days/two weeks; I’ll be between jobs, but DH would like to take no more than ten days off.
And as far as budget… well, I don’t really know. What’s a reasonable amount to ballpark? We’re about to move from a LCOL small town to DC, so I’m weighing my penny-pinching impulses against wanting to make this a great trip that we can look back on before jobs start getting crazy. $8-10k?
Anonymous
Depends what your tastes are. We did almost two weeks in Greece in August for about $7 or $8k and we stayed in pretty nice hotels (average was probably $250/night – a bit more in Santorini, a bit less elsewhere) but not Four Seasons-level. The economy has rebounded since then, and France/Italy/Spain are probably more expensive than Greece (but cheaper than Switzerland and Scandinavia). You probably have to figure $3-4K for the flights to Europe alone, so anything less than $5-6K would probably be tough and $8K sounds about right to me if you don’t want to stay in budget hotels.
Scarlett
We do a 2-week vacation abroad every year & it runs us around 8-10K; I have champagne tastes & like nice hotels and a few really good meals out.
Anon
I highly recommend Rhodes for this- you’ve got lotsa history in a small place, great food and inexpensive wine (downtown and in old town) lovely beaches, springs, and try to get out on a sailboat too. the public bus runs from the fancy beach-side resorts (I stayed at the Sheraton and it was Super great) to downtown and old town, so no need to rent a car. For other destinations the taxis are good and cheap. You can make your own balance of vegetating pool-side or on the beach, and also getting interesting history/Europe stuff. it’s small enough that you can do all the things in a couple of afternoons so you won’t feel like you missed anything when you’ve moved on to drink cocktails in a lounge chair for days.
anon
We are similar vacation-ers to you and your husband and we’re doing the Amalfi coast for our honeymoon in a few weeks. We are traveling it “up” so we’re doing it for around 10k but I believe it could certainly be done cheaper if you stayed in more boutique or family-run type places. The food and wine and sea were the draw for us!
Anonymous
In addition to what others have said check out Portugal. I think Lisbon, Porto, and some other areas might match your mix of relaxing, touristy, and European culture well.
As for budget, I’m a very active traveler who also likes planning and finding good deals for what I wanted to do. That being said, I’ve done 15 day European trips going through multiple countries for 3k (one person), including airfare, multiple times (once late August, so September should be less expensive). For your honeymoon, you might splurge a bit more, but I think your budget is very reasonable.
Anonymous
Oh, and if you’re looking at trains and trying to figure it out, man in seat 61 (I think that’s the number) is very useful!
TY
I got accepted to the business school of my choice! How do I thank my current and former boss for their letters of recommendation? Hand written note plus something edible?
anonymous
No gifts for recommendation letters. Even if you mean it sincerely, even if you really want to – please don’t. It’s awkward on the part of the receiver. Sincere thank you notes (handwritten or email) are always appreciated.
Anon for this
CONGRATS!!!!!!
Elle
Woooooo congratulations!
I’d go with a nice thank you note updating them. You could also arrange a dinner or something and pay, but it’s not necessary.
TBK
For the first time we have a high school aged intern in my office. He wrote me an email addressed to Mrs. K. My instinct is to gently correct him by pointing out that in a work setting, women should always be addressed as Ms., unless they have expressly stated they prefer Mrs. or Miss. (Assuming you’re using a last name, of course. I don’t expect him to call me Ms. K going forward. This was his first email to me.) Does anyone disagree with this? I find Mrs. and Miss to be intensely weird in the workplace, but I know my MIL went at Mrs. K at work her whole life and I know some congresswomen go by Mrs. (although I always figured that was a ploy to make them seem less intimidating to voters). Honestly I wish we’d just gone the French/German route and allowed Mrs to be used for all adult women regardless of marital status. But here we are.
anonymous
Yes, gently correct him. That’s one important aspect of internships – to learn professional norms so that you’re better prepared for your first real job. I also agree that Mrs. has no place in the office. (And if everyone else in the office is on first name basis, he should be using first names too, unless your industry is really weird).
Cat
Yep, this. And I vividly remember feeling so awkward calling my adult co-workers by their first names in my first office job in college — since all my friends’ parents, parents’ friends, teachers, etc etc were always “Mrs. X” or “Mr. X.”
Anonymous
Yup. Tell him to default to Ms. but also that first names are fine internally.
Anonymous
There was a discussion about this a day or two ago. Mrs. has no place in the office. Gently correct him and at the same time mention he can call you by your first name anyway.
Anonymous
“Please call me Nancy as we’re a first-name basis kind of office here; and as a general rule, for offices that are more formal and use last names, you should refer to women as Ms., rather than Mrs. so as not to assume anything about anyone’s marital status.”
Drives me crazy that people still say Mrs. in the professional setting. There’s a major DC law firm where secretaries (of the 50+ age group) pick up the phone of female partners and say “Mrs. Smith’s office” when it’s often the case that that partner is not married or is married and retaining her maiden name so Mrs. Smith would be her mother, not her.
Scarlett
Yep, handle it that way now and you are doing him a huge favor. Mrs. has no place in business correspondence.
Anonymous
I’ve never heard this, so I’m surprised to see everyone agreeing with it! I don’t ever assume but never had a problem with married women going by Mrs.
Scarlett
Could be regional? I’ve always been west coast based and this has been the “rule” since I started working, but maybe other parts of the country are different?
anon
Ugh. I cannot believe I’m writing this, but here’s my situation, and I need help figuring out the best course of action. This is so far removed from normal or sane that I’m having a hard time dealing with it. Been at new job for ~ 5 months. My male boss is extremely cliquey; his clique members are all young and attractive females. On occasion, he’s friendly but professional with older female staffers (btw, the dept is 90% female). When I first started, he was polite but distant. That turned into the cold shoulder which has now turned into open hostility and disgust — literally when I walk into his office or encounter him around the office, his facial expression goes from cheerful and smiling to anger and disgust. I’m a senior level technology worker and my work product has been excellent, which he acknowledged and gave positive feedback on during the first couple of months. Literally nothing happened to bring this on. I’m starting to feel like a crazy person, but the only thing I can identify that he might dislike about me are my age and looks (I’m middle-aged, and quite presentable). It is so demeaning. Obviously I can’t stay, but I have no idea how to get out of this one, or what to even say to potential employers, or how to explain it to references who I would need to call on again for a new job search.
eyes
Have you ever knocked on his office door, calm calm calm, on a low stress day…. and said., ” I’ve noticed recently you seem concerned/upset/? when you see me? Is there something we need to talk about?
And there is nothing you have to explain as to why you are looking for a new job. Just looking for new opportunities… want to lean new things… wasn’t the right fit (if you even need to go there).
Anonypotamus
Was he involved in hiring you? I’m having a hard time understanding what could have happened in the 5 mths between when he presumably hired you and now.
Anonymous
I’d stick it out for a year max and then leave. If it starts to get really bad, start your job search earlier. Unless you have a total job-hopping resume (other recent stints <1 year), it'll be fine. In the meantime, it might be useful to ask your boss on the spot if everything is ok (next time you walk into his office and get the angry face). Act concerned — "is everything ok?" When he responds, "yes, why?", you then just continue to look concerned, "Oh, ok, good, I was just worried because you looked angry and I wanted to make sure I hadn't done something wrong." It sounds like you're reading a lot into his behavior and you want to leave room for the possibility that your interpretation is totally off base.
I wouldn't say anything about the boss issue to potential employers — think of some other way to couch it. You know, any of the normal reasons that people give when they're leaving because of a psycho boss. The role was not what it was described to be during the hiring process, you are looking for more challenging work, the culture wasn't a good fit (not collaborative enough, or too silo'd, or IT not valued, etc.).
For your references, I would just tell them your boss is very unpleasant to work with and you're looking for a new opportunity. Don't give them the gory details, but you can certainly be up front that you need to leave because of a toxic boss. Then let them know that you're telling prospective employers that you're leaving because of [x positive reason].
This is something where I'd ask some professional friends to help me brainstorm and then practice talking about why I'm looking for a new position.
Helppp
First time posting for Hive advice.
Just graduated law school (yay!). Thoughout law school, I was involved (?) with a guy. It never went beyond being friends, but my therapist described it as a platonic relationship. There was a lot of it that functioned like a relationship, and a very emotionally and, once or twice, physically abusive one at that.
In March, I finally said “Yeah, this is not enjoyable, bye.” No contact after that until graduation a week or so ago, except for two very (very) brief interactions for me to get books back I loaned him and wanted back badly. I was and am thrilled with my decision. He’s a jerk of the absolute highest caliber.
However. He and I are both going into the same very, very niche field. In my city, there are maybe 20 of us in the field. I’ll be working in it in such a way that it would be professionally damaging for me to just disregard him (although I don’t think he should be an attorney in this field to begin with, which is a whole other thing). After graduation, I texted him and asked if he would like to get lunch or coffee sometime as colleagues, with the disclaimer that it would be best for our future clients (which I firmly believe). I very, very specifically did not mention anything with alcohol because NOPE. He agreed. I told him to let me know when he’s available. My question for Hive is: I feel like this is something we need to do; I don’t want to have to work with him but we’re in such a small area that it would be problematic if we can’t be collegial, and I think this is the best thing for my future clients- and his. How do I implicitly or explicitly ensure that boundaries about “we are meeting as professionals. You do not get to tell me I cannot do this work. This is a work meeting so we can work together in the future” are respected? I’m already planning to dress and act like I would with any other colleague- and plan a meeting (or say I have one, at least) for an hour and a half or so after we meet.
anon
Nope, this isn’t something that you need to do. This certainly isn’t something that you need to do now. Are you going to be working at the same company as this guy? I work in a niche field (seriously, maybe 6 people in my market do what I do) and its pretty easy for me to avoid interaction with the others who practice in this area if I want to.
I wouldn’t go around bad mouthing him but unless there is some very specific reason that you need to interact (like working on opposite sides of the same transaction) then you don’t need to speak to him. Stop now.
Senior Attorney
What are you hoping to gain from this meeting? What are you planning to talk about?
Why wouldn’t you just practice in your field and get on with your life and deal with him professionally and appropriately when your paths cross? I note that he does not seem to be running after you to make sure the two of you can work together in the future. Why are you putting yourself in this position instead of assuming the two of you will act like grownups professionally?
Anonymous
+1
I would recommend that you not be available whatever time he suggests. If he pushes on setting up a meeting, maybe try to make it a group thing.
Don’t understand at all why you felt you needed to meet with him one on one. Just be professionally cordial in any interactions but don’t seek out interactions in the future.
MJ
What? No. You can be professionally cordial and personally icy to someone without forcing awkward ‘we are not friends we are colleagues’ lunches upon one another. This was a terrible idea and you should let it die a slow death and be too busy to follow up on them. Just be icy to professinally cordial when you see him in public. No need for lunch.
My gut is saying that you are inventing an excuse to check in with him because of some weird Stockholm Syndrome or curiosity or you secretly miss the good parts of your old relationship. Resist the temptation. You can say hello to him at bar assn events and then bag off after three minutes of chitchat and achieve your purported goals. You do not need to manufacture weird lunches with him because the practice area you are in is small. This is absolutely nuts and will not end well if you pursue it. Sorry. You can’t be icy professional non-friends who lunch. Not a good call. This is so weird I cannot even tell you how weird it is.
NOPE NOPE NOPE
Killer Kitten Heels
I think you jumped the gun by scheduling coffee. Like, sure, you will have to professionally interact with him, but you haven’t put forth any reason at all why it needs to be right now. I think it’d be smarter to just back off the connection for now, and then be cordial and professional if/when your actual job duties put you together. I feel like you’re giving him/the past relationship more power and attention than it deserves by being all “we have to get professional coffee 42 seconds after we stopped being friends so we can prove that we can be professional together because we are professional professionals who will be sharing a profession.”
Are you running out having coffee with other potential colleagues just to prove you can have a professional relationship with them? My guess is, no. Treat him the way you would treat any other loose acquaintance who works in your field. If he can’t handle that and acts like an idiot about it, that’s on him. You don’t need to have special coffee dates with him just to make sure he can handle being colleagues, that’s playing right into his (I’m guessing) entitled man-baby hands.
Helppppp
Yeah, okay. I’ll just let this one die a slow death/not follow up. I don’t think he’s going to be particularly professional when we see each other at bar events, etc., but I will be. His problem. Alright. Yeah. Bad idea.
Anonymous
Eye roll. This is absurd. Do not do it. You are not lunching with the other 19 people right? Cancel. Be cordial if you see him but don’t make plans to see him.
Helppppp
You don’t need to be nasty about it, but thanks for the advice.
Anonymous
Hey, sometimes it gets through!! I’m team you, I just think you need a stern voice in your head telling you to cut it out on dealing with this jerk.
Mia
I had a coworker yesterday write 2 separate long emails ripping to shreds my graphic design work and she CC’ED the whole management team instead of emailing me directly with any suggestions. Instead it was some of the most cruel criticism that I have ever read. It almost made me cry because of how hateful it was.
Graphic design is something I struggle with but have been trying my best to teach myself, it is a facet of my job description but not my job title or position “graphic designer”.
I am now concerned about my position there. The environment is toxic, management does not provide any feedback, support, etc whatsoever to subordinates at all. That certainly will not change. I am anxious to leave the job but I do not have something else lined up yet nor have I gotten the design skills where I want them yet before I feel comfortable leaving.
In my field, nothing is ever taught to you – you just pick it up as you go. It can make you feel like an imposter at times. But I look back and I see my progress. Especially for someone who did not study my field in college nor grad school and who has been self – taught.
I feel very sorry for the woman that wrote out that email humilitating me. Because for her to be so cruel I know that her heart and life must be very dark and bad.
Anyway – my question is this – what are your thoughts on me just jumping into another position even though my graphic design skills aren’t there 100% but still a work in progress?
I have been on 5 interviews this month but didn’t get any of the positions. I was up front about my graphic design skills being intermediate. So maybe this was why.
Not working or taking time off to learn the design isn’t an option either. I need to work and make the money. I also will be completing my MBA this fall. 10 classes left.
Thoughts?
CountC
Certainly don’t lie in your interviews, but don’t offer up that you don’t think you are qualified for the job! If they brought you in for an interview, they liked your resume. Don’t discourage them from hiring you! No one’s skills are perfect and a good number of people apply to jobs that they think are reach jobs for them (mainly men unfortunately). We all learn news skills and grown our existing ones throughout our careers. Have confidence in the skills you do have and, as you are, be willing and eager to grow those and learn new ones!
KLR
It definitely sounds like you should get out as soon as possible, and best of luck in your job search. (And I agree with CountC above about not selling yourself short.)
In the meantime, I’m sorry you’re dealing with such terrible coworkers. As a lawyer, I have received many nastygrams from opposing counsel over the years. My tactic when responding to emails which are unnecessarily cruel/insulting is to keep my tone civil and also ask that they do the same. So I might reply all with something like, “Coworker – I would be happy to revise the draft so that it better reflects the design you had in mind. I am available at (time) to discuss. Let me know if that works for you. I will be prepared to discuss concrete suggestions for edits and ask that you be prepared to do the same. In order to ensure our conversation is as productive as possible, I also ask that you refrain from the types of personal attacks reflected in your email below.”
Mia
OMG THAT IS SUCH A BADASS REPLY! MIND IF I COPY AND PASTE?
And from the bottom of my heart, thank you for responding, it helped. <3
KLR
Go for it! Glad to help. :)
lsw
Also, know that this almost definitely reflects poorly on her. Personal attacks in an email or unnecessary cruelty is not going to impress the management team. It’s an opportunity to show how civil you can be in response to something so childish. And I 100% guarantee you you that your skills are better than you think they are at this moment after receiving something like that.
Mia
Thank you so much. That really helps me!
Honestly, when I read the post – my heart was racing. I was thinking – what if they believe her and fire me? or what if I loose my job. I just signed a new lease and plus paying my way through school come fall, so I NEED my income. I felt like how can someone be so cruel and try to humiliate – even possibly strip someone of their job not knowing someone situation?
If she succeded, I would’ve been ruined.
I have no idea whether they did or didn’t believe her because the kicker is – my boss responded to her email ” I agree with her”
Meanwhile – since being her ladies, I have gotten a raise & 3 great performance reviews in less than 2 years. So, it was news to me that my own boss would agree with something so cruel.
Mia
Thank you so much for responding! You gave me SO much to think about. When I see analytics of graphic design emphasized (two areas I am still working on), I tend to shrink back. In my mind I’m thinking I do not want to mislead nor do I want to throw myself into something unprepared. But when you said be confident in your skills, I thought about how thus far I HAVE been thrown into every position, and I have been okay I have held my own and just figured it out.
Thank you again <3
I keep forgetting my fake name
If your boss has indicated that she agrees with the original email, you might want to reexamine the original email to determine whether it was truly cruel, or merely critical of the work product. It seems like most bosses would be unlikely to sign on to cruelty…
If the email is critical of the work product and not cruel (personal attacks, rudeness) try not to take it personally. I know that’s easier said than done, however! If the work product doesn’t meet the objectives of the company, it’s really not cruel to tell you so. In fact, it’s probably her obligation.
anon
I feel for you. I work as a copywriter and have also had my share of negative feedback. It can be hard to hear. I wouldn’t necessarily assume your work product is poor or that you lack skills. Your co-worker’s opinion might not be fair or representative of what everyone else is thinking. I would definitely talk to your boss and to someone else you trust in private and see what they say about the email and the quality of your work. Also, if you need to improve, that’s not a sign of failure. It’s okay. You just need to break it down so you know what to focus on next and build from there. Try to look at it logically, not from a place of fear or shame.
Mia
Sometimes I wish I could just run away. Go to Cali and live by the beach. Swim all day and daydream looking out on the water.
But, I have responsibilities now. And I grew up with a mother that made so many poor choices I swore I would never turn out that way. So I have worked since 14with no breaks. I guess I am burnt out even though I am still young. But there isn’t much that can be done. Unlike the fairytales people sell to others “quit your job and follow your passion” ” become an entrepreneur” or “become instagram famous or a blogger” its just not in the cards for everyone. Or for someone like me who is only passionate about the beach and a shy creature who is reclusive other than occasionally being around close friends. Which isn’t a career option.
Anyway, Im rambling now. But do you ever feel that way?
Like you just want to run away sometimes. Like just start driving west, top down with sun on your neck and just keep driving till you run out of gas.
Thats all.
Anon
I posted a few days back how fatigued I am. I cannot explain it. I like my work too. It has been a brief lull but for most part it has been very good. I am just tired of working non-stop for a decade now that I feel jealous of people walking/jogging when I am driving to work . Who knows they might be doing night shifts, but I feel just jealous that they are enjoying the beautiful morning when I am on my way to sit in my tiny cubicle.
I just need an effing break from this job..a very long break.
Mia
EXACTLY…..
I see people casually having breakfast with their dog at Stabucks as I am frantically going through the drive through for another tedious 8 hour day. Day in and day out in a toxic, cold, miserable office and I feel overwhelmed with jealousy.
I am right there with you.
Anonymous
Do you take vacations? Can you join a gym with a pool or a club with an outdoor pool? Are you driving distance to a beach? Would it make sense to buy a condo on one?
Can you designate one Sat a month as “beach day”? Have a leisurely breakfast, go for a drive someplace new, spend time in nature?
Mia
Honestly I do ALL of those things you mentioned…. and then monday rolls around and its back to a state of depression, anxiety and not wanting to be at work.
Anon for this.
HEY KAT – READ THIS. MAKE THIS A POST.
I think this is a real issue, or at least it is for me, and it is for a few similar women I know. I find myself having both worked extremely hard to excel in school while working paid employment, often more than one job, since I was fourteen, including, for several years, three jobs, one residential, meaning the only time I was “off the clock” was literally the 30 minutes I had to get from one job to another.
I am now a pretty dang successful woman in her mid-thirties but I am just exhausted. Exhausted in a way that going to the spa, or taking a week’s vacation, or joining a club is not going to fix. I have been working more than full time for 25 years now and I can see myself coming to a junction where on one hand, stepping back seems like giving up so much/there’s so much more to lose, but on the other hand, I could lay down and go to sleep for a year.
I don’t think I’m alone in this.
Anonymous
And then I feel guilty for wanting a break or considering “leaning out” – like who am I to feel so entitled? Plenty of people work hard their whole lives and never have anything close to the lifestyle I’m currently enjoying. What makes me such a precious snowflake that I feel like I should be able to take a step back when I’m not even 40 yet?
Anonymous
Right there with you. I’ve worked since I was 14, had 5 jobs at a time in college while double majoring, temped during the summers, went into consulting after college and billed 3000 hours per year, went to a T10 law school, and am now a senior associate billing 2500 hours per year with a young kid. And I am just so tired. Like I cannot do work without a deadline bearing down on me because I am so burnt out, in a way that a vacation won’t fix. I desperately want to take a sabbatical but it’s not in the cards.
anon for this
Yes. This!
anon
+1,000
I had dinner with two high achieving girlfriends the other night and we all remarked that we were appalled that our default answer to “how are you?” is “good, TIRED.”
My therapist tells me the Japanese have a concept that describes being so overwhelmed but also so under-stimulated, some how, which seems exactly right. I don’t want to go through my whole life being so tired I wake up and I’m ten years later and nothing happened except that I went to work and went to dinner.
anon
My job has layoffs coming. I really can’t afford to be laid off, but I daydream every damn day about the three month severance package. I am honestly going to be disappointed (but relieved) if I don’t end up with a pink slip. I feel you.
Elle
100% get this
Me too
Triple major, graduated in 7 semesters while working full-time at night. Top 5 law school, super biller at top firm, etc., etc. At an in-house sweatshop in a small city I love but with no other options geared to my niche.
SO so tired. Bone deep tired. The work never ends and I am always behind. All I want to do every day after work is go home and sit alone in a dark room. I broke up with my last boyfriend on the third Friday night in a row that he picked me up from work, excited to see me and do something fun, and the thought of going “out” made me cry and I just begged him to take me home so I could go to sleep.
I am single, mid-thirties.
DH vent
I love my husband. I do. But he is impossible with plans. He’s setting up a meal with his sister, her husband, and some of his family who are visiting from overseas. One of the purposes of their visit is to meet me and SIL’s husband. They can only do Saturday, though.
I told DH a week ago that I have to work during the day on Saturday. He says we’ll have dinner with everyone. Today I find out from his sister that the plan is a late lunch, not dinner. I tell her I won’t be able to make it because I have to work, and I text DH to confirm that he told the visiting family that I couldn’t make it. He says no, he never mentioned it, he just went along with what they wanted to do. I don’t need or want anyone to bend over backwards to accommodate my work schedule, but don’t you think maybe you MENTION the fact that I can’t make it at that time and see if they’re available at dinner like you originally told me? Not make me look like I flaked on plans that could’ve been changed? To top it off, DH insists that 4 p.m. is “dinnertime” to some people so I should’ve spoken up sooner if I couldn’t make it then. Grrrrr.
Anonymous
Tell him he’s a jerk and if he doesn’t care about you meeting his family you’ll be busy fucking the pool boy.
Anonymous
OH man, this made me laugh.
OP
Can I just take the pool? I don’t think my blood pressure can handle another man in my life.
Ally
You don’t want a dirty pool but I suppose cleaning it would give you some arm definition.
WeHaveTheSameHusband
I get that you’re frustrated, and I would be too. But if he’s insisting that 4pm is dinnertime it sounds like it knows he screwed up and is getting defensive.
Killer Kitten Heels
I’d just start serving dinner at 4pm. Then when he’s confused, be like “what? I thought 4pm was dinnertime?”
anon for this
Yes, I think a lot of people feel this way sometimes. Is there any way you could plan a trip that indulges some of these feelings without totally abandoning your life? Maybe you’re burned out and need a vacation.
Are the issues with having responsibilities at home or with your job (or both)? What do you currently do for work? Are there other fields you could explore that might make you happier?
ChiLaw
I think I need a screen protector/privacy screen for my work laptop? I travel a few times a month and have found myself in meetings with competitors, etc. and so I haven’t been able to read my emails or whatever.
Does anyone have any leads on a screen shield that *doesn’t* stick on with adhesive? I’ve seen other people with screens that just kind of pop on over the regular screens, but I haven’t been able to find something like that for a macbook. Thought y’all might have some thoughts!
Cat
is your office so small there’s not an IT department that you’d just request one from?
anyway, the way the slip-on/slip-off ones work at my company is there’s little plastic tabs that adhere to the border of your monitor, and then they trap the privacy screen close to the display.
ChiLaw
Oh HA it didn’t even cross my mind to ask IT! (We are pretty small but not too small to have an IT department! But I’m used to working at like, 3 person firms, so sometimes I forget that there is all this structure around us.)
Come on
I don’t think any of them use adhesive. The static electricity between your screen and the privacy film holds it on. Did you even read about them?
Mariah
Ughhhh. I’m a 20-something with a chronic illness. One of the really fun aspects of this illness is that my stomach is always kind of pregnant-looking (regardless of my weight otherwise- when I’m underweight, it’s disproportionately so, when I’m a normal weight it’s noticeable to me but not quite as odd looking). It’s been this way since I was a little kid, and it’s bothered me since I was 9 or 10. I’ve figured out how to work with it, but there are some days where I just look like I’m four months pregnant, and it DRIVES ME INSANE.
The (really pretty) Limited mint-green asymmetrical pencil skirt posted a few weeks ago made me look like a mint-green elephant because of my stomach. So pencil skirts (and the tube skirt featured above) are totally out- this would look terrible on me. I’ve got lots of outfit options (fit and flare dresses! A-line skirts! Loose blouses!) not really looking for advice, just want to vent that someday, I would like to have a child (probably adoption tbh) and I realize pregnancy is a wonderful thing, but I DO NOT WANT TO LOOK PREGNANT 365 DAYS A YEAR. Channeling Ellen with the caps, oops.
This brought on by that I’m wearing a t-shirt and jeans that usually look fine together and today they don’t. Aurghhhh.
Ellen
Hugs. You will be fine.
I am 35, have a BIG tuchus, and have no boyfreind, and NO prospects. FOOEY! I want to be married with children. You are still young and there is hope for you. Keep your chin up and your eye’s open and mabye a guy will come along and SWEEP YOU OFF YOUR FEET!
Please come back and let the HIVE know how you are doeing, Mariah.
Repeat after ME: I WILL find a GUY and I WILL BE MARRIED with CHILD! YAY!!
Ellen
Hug’s to you. Cheer up! You should know that if NOTHING else, at least you do have a beautiful name. I have learned that the meaning of the name Moriah is beautiful. Look at what I found for you and the HIVE!
” Jones’ Dictionary of Old Testament Proper Names determines that it derives from the verb ראה (ra’a), meaning to see and translates it as Visible Of The Lord, and narrows that down to a dubious Chosen Of The Lord.”
http://www.abarim-publications.com/Meaning/Moriah.html#.V1t663pwvz0
With THIS religus history, you can be PROUD of your NAME, and with such a NAME, meaning CHOSEN OF THE LORD, you can have a great future with a HUSBAND who chooses you and a BABY to be comeing along soon! YAY!!!!