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AIMS
I’m probably in the minority on this, but for some reason large clutches make me feel like I am carrying a trapper keeper.
Also, I am not a huge fan of clutches, generally. I’m sure this wouldn’t actually happen, but — esp. because clutches often go with cocktails — I always feel nervous that 2 martinis & I would forget my clutch somewhere. I know most people may be much less scattered than I am, but I do wish more evening bags came with some kind of handles.
meg
I agree! I still remember going dancing one night and being totally impressed by a girlfriend who was carrying a clutch – she was able to hold it under an arm, dance, and not look totally awkward, which I definitely would have!
Emily
I have an evening bag that loops over my wrist for exactly this reason!
Shayna
Agree on both points… I use evening bags when I’m going to cocktail parties and other events that require a lot of standing while balancing a little plate of food that I want to eat and a drink… I’m so not coordinated enough to hold a clutch as well!
Cat
ha, well put — I agree. If you try to tuck it under your arm, a larger clutch (besides looking awkward) is heavy enough to give you the dreaded “my arm didn’t look that fat before I squished it against this bag!” syndrome. Holding it, you can’t cup your hand around the bottom — you’re stuck pinching the top. Which is also uncomfortable with a larger bag. I’ll stick to the small ones (augmented by hubby’s pockets), thanks!
anon23
Dooney and Burke has a great little patent leather clutch w/ strap. I got mine in law school using Westlaw points!
mille
I love the wristlet bags for that reason. Also, usually my husband carries my id in his pocket so all I have in the clutch is some cash, makeup, cellphone and mints.
This reminds me, in a weird way, of my pet peeve– I’ve been hit by large purses and BACKPACKS at clubs and out at restaurants before. Some women carry giant shoulder bags and don’t seem to realize that in a crowded area, swinging around a purse isn’t a good idea. Most of them are so drunk they don’t know they are hitting anyone. It drives me crazy. Ladies, please don’t wear a backpack out for the evening. Please. Even a giant trapper-keeper clutch is better than a backpack.
DC Lawyer
Update from last week: the DC intern blog posted my submission about business attire.
http://dcinterns.blogspot.com/2010/06/heard-psa-to-ladies.html
Sadly, the comments indicate that the young people still just don’t get it, and the DC intern blog owner declined to post a link to Corporette (which I had suggested).
LegallyBlonde
Wow–“a sundress and a cardigan can be very professional”. Um, no. No, a sundress is not professional. I love sundresses. Have several. Wear them frequently on the weekends. But never, ever to work.
I’ve worked on the hill as an intern. I cringe at some (okay, most) of the stuff I did wear—I didn’t have a lot of money AND I had no idea how a professional women should dress—but I still never wore a sundress. Even clueless, broke me realized how inappropriate that would be.
SF Bay Associate
To save everyone else the trouble, here are some of the comments:
“90% of what you described would be considered appropriate summer office attire in every other city in the US. Get over yourself. ”
I find this commen hiliarious. 90% of people in the US aren’t attorneys, let alone attorneys in DC.
“a chauvinist in DC. what a surprise! a word of advice to you, buddy: don’t be such a prick and maybe you’d be more than “midlevel.” ”
Clearly, this commenter doesn’t understand what a chauvinist is. And since it takes years to work up from the bottom, to midlevel, to senior, everyone is a midlevel at some point on the way to the top. Not to mention that those at the top aren’t going to bother to inform those on the bottom what’s wrong. They will just no-offer them. At least in my office, it’s the mids that provide the practical advice and candid, constructive feedback.
DC Lawyer, props to you for trying. Can’t force advice upon deaf ears.
SF Bay Associate
Hmm, reading comprehension fail. What I should have said is that 90% of what DC Lawyer described would be inappropriate at a law firm, which is a much more conservative subset of the general category of offices. And even a 10% inappropriate wardrobe is too high.
Sharon
I’m neither a lawyer nor in DC, but from my perspective (consulting to major corporations), the type of business dress you all describe and the narrow definitions of “appropriate” seem really dated and 1980’s to me. The rest of the corporate world really has moved on — business casual is the norm at every single company I do business with — and people freely show their personal style with accessories, jewelry, etc. No one would think twice over peep-toes, or a dress with a cardigan, or cute ballet flats, or all the things that get discussed on here as so “controversial.”
I understand that those in courtrooms may have a different norm, and maybe those in govt in DC have a different norm, but it feels like you guys are behind the curve, not ahead of it.
And it looks very mid-level to me. It’s the powerful women who exhibit personal style in their clothing choices. Because they know that their work speaks for itself. This “what would the judge think?” feels the antithesis of personal power. I’m not suggesting jeans and a t-shirt for the courtroom, but from some of what I read on here, the courtroom looks aren’t much updated from John Malloy 1980’s Dress for Success.
Eponine
Accessories, jewelry and peeptoes, sure. That’s the norm for business casual, and business professional too really, in DC as well. But visible bra straps, gladiator sandals and leopard-print tanks? I very much doubt there’s any city in the US where this is the norm for business attire.
Lynette
I wholeheartedly agree!!
Cat
Sharon, I agree that a “court” look is often much more formal/traditional/”behind the curve” than typical corporate America. Definitely more so than most attorneys ever have to wear on average days at the office. Unfortunately, it’s hard to get around that “what would the judge think?” does dictate those choices — especially because it’s not just a personal empowerment issue, but an ethical one (no sense irritating a judge over style choices* when there’s a client involved). [*medical/cultural/religious choices — obviously excluded here]
For regular days, and obviously some offices have stricter dress codes than others, all of the examples you mentioned would be just fine at my (biglaw) firm. I agree with Eponine — I don’t think a sheath dress with a cardigan and peep-toes (or ballet flats for that matter) would have struck the author of the PSA as at all inappropriate. The gladiator sandals, revealing sundresses and leopard print tank tops — hard to argue with the PSA there.
Shayna
There is definitely a difference between business casual, which can include a pair of peep toe’s and hot pink ballet flat sneakers (yes, I saw these recently… and it definitely drew the attention of many people).
It’s important to indicate what audience you’re talking about – lawyers in court are different than accountants in corporate (no clients!) or folks in marketing that have constant client interaction – but with a creative field… ‘different strokes for different folks’
That said – my biggest skill, I’ve been told, is that I’m great about listening and taking advice, so I don’t repeat someone else’s mistake… it has served me well in scenarios like what to wear where.
North Shore
“This ‘what would the judge think?’ feels the antithesis of personal power.”
That’s kind of the point — there is only one person with power in the courtroom, and it’s not the lawyer. You dress up to respect the power of the court and the seriousness of the law. The ceremony and formality are to instill in participants the importance of the proceedings and to encourage truth-telling, among other things. I always wear a formal suit in court. It’s just the right thing to do.
Trunk
I will second that, North Shore. WELL SAID.
Louise
Brava! The reason for dressing for the occasion, in a nutshell.
KelliJ
Agree whole heartedly, North Shore. I once sat to watch a case before the Supreme Judicial Court of my state when I was a 1L. Our writing assignment was based on a ground breaking case before the Court and when one of the lawyers got up to give her argument, you could just see the horror on every face. She was wearing a jean skirt, striped tights, and birkenstock sandals. There was no one in that court room who didn’t know she was completely inappropriately dressed. It was horrifying to watch. The judges were without mercy on her.
Biglaw Refugee
I’ve observed the standards of dress of the powerful female partners at my internationally-recognized former law firm, as well as the dress of partners at other firms and of successful women executives.
They exhibit their personality through color, through the shape of their jackets, through their (expensive) jewelry and scarves, and sometimes through their (jauntily anti-feminine) haircuts. The only thing I have seen any one of them do is to wear an outfit that is casual enough to be paired with a t-shirt under it rather than a blouse or go without pantyhose (but with expensive, closed-toe shoes!). The one who most deviates from the norm in business attire deviates by having a more casual, but also more masculine, style (pants, short hair). Not one has bared her shoulders in the office, worn sandals, worn anything frilly or flowing, or done any of the other things we discuss on this site. I violently disagree that trying to conform to the “rules” we discuss on this site is strictly a behavior of mid-level professionals.
What is “acceptable” and what is “professional” are two different things. Many women wear clothes to work that are now “normal” in a professional setting. That doesn’t mean that it’s “professional” in the sense of conveying an image of self-confidence, competence and professionalism. Those of us on this site are aiming for that higher target, and so we have to thread the needle by BOTH fitting within all those outdated “rules” AND displaying some personality at the same time.
The sad truth is that dressing casually in general makes you appear less professional, but if you do it in a male style (the type of clothing men wear to play golf) it can convey “rolling up my sleeves to get work done; not overly formal or concerned with appearances; approachable.” Unfortunately, dressing casually in a feminine style (sundresses, gladiator sandals) tends to be interpreted as “frivolous; more concerned with having fun and finding a man than with getting my work done.” Is that sexist? Absolutely. Does that mean we should ignore it as “outdated”? Only if we want to hurt our own chances of success in order to make a political point.
Michelle
Sharon,
What a lot of women starting out fail to realize, I guess, is that there are two categories: (a) what is acceptable, in keeping with the rules, won’t get you sent home to change, and (b) what causes someone to look at you, stand up straighter, treat you with respect, and perceive you as competent. The latter will vary somewhat and allows for certain personal expression depending on the person. The items that people are considering “no-no’s” here are the items that scream “secretary” or “intern” rather than bespeaking a professional influence and skill set that is several pay grades above your level. And while a 50 year old woman who moves through the office with reserve and self-containment might be able to pull of dangling earrings and a plum sheath dress, a giggling and slightly nervous girl in her mid-20s is going to scream “lower level” in the exact same outfit. Adjust for age. Younger = more conservative.
KelliJ
Sharon,
Don’t assume that what a majority of women are wearing in the business casual workplace is appropriate or meets the dress code of the business. Most women are just not spoken to when they dress inappropriately especially if they have male supervisors. Men often just feel too uncomfortable to talk to women about it. While I worked in the legal department of a major corporation, I had the opportunity to see what women across the business were wearing (finance, HR, management, etc). I also had the opportunity to hear my male colleagues speak about how certain women dressed and how they didn’t find their choices “work appropriate”. This was especially true in summer.
Also, business casual is not casual, and the line is very blurry in most work places. I went to have lunch with a friend who works in a big Boston law firm on casual Friday. He introduced me to a top litigator who was dressed in ripped jeans (read old not fashionable), a dirty shirt, and sneakers. I asked my friend, “What if I was a client?” He shrugged his shoulders and said “I know it’s inappropriate but what can I say?” and he’s a managing partner!
MPC
Just posted a plug for Corporette on that thread. Maybe they’ll approve it…
Clerky
The comments are hilarious and sadly very misinformed. Good for you for putting this information out there, hopefully at least some interns will read it and take it to heart.
I was on the Hill yesterday for a hearing. I was pleasantly surprised that most of the younger folks in the room (who were either staffers or interns, not sure) were dressed appropriately. Not necessarily full on suits, but at least a blazer or in one case, a cardigan over a dress.
RR
Wow. I wanted to post to defend you! Well, they will get the picture soon enough when they are judged by their employer.
Ex-3L Sarah
At least you tried. The commenters seem like college kids who are too oblivious to anything to realize what’s what. If I’m stuffy when I rock my Wonder Woman cufflinks, then so be it. I hope some of these people are taking the VA Bar with me, (unkind thought coming…) because it would at least be entertaining to watch someone be kicked out for their unprofessional wear. Try arguing with the Bar Examiners “But my sundress and cardigan are very professional! It’s what I wore all summer at my internship!” Sometimes you gotta swallow your fashion sense for a bit so you don’t have to later on in life…
K3L
Grrr on having to wear a suit to take the Bar next year … I have a knit suit that I purchased for $40 in hopes that I can wear it to take the bar … and at least FEEL like I’m wearing pajamas. Feel free to check back in to see if I’d get kicked out in that :)
Shayna
WOW! I whine about the CPA exam madness that I’m undergoing…but the good testing center folks don’t care what I’m wearing (as long as I’m willing to empty my pockets, not wear a cardigan or watch, etc.) !
JAS
they have a dress code for the bar exam?? Is that just a VA thing? I am still in law school so I haven’t taken the exam yet. Personally, I kind of like the idea of getting dressed up for the exam to get me in the right mindset…but I don’t really think it’s fair to require it…
Emily
I heard that the Virginia bar requires you to wear a suit (for formality) and tennis shoes (so you don’t click or squeak during the test). Hilarious.
Ex-3L Sarah
It’s pretty hilarious. Almost all of my bar lecturers have commented on how they laugh at all of us lined up in our suits and sneakers. They also laugh at the one guy walking up and down saying “Does anyone have an extra blazer?”
Lola
Yeah, I’ve heard that about Virginia. Don’t worry, future Bar examinees: I’m not sure any other state does it. Most Bar Exams allow hoodies and sweatpants.
LYA
I took the CA bar wearing sweats and looking so grubby that a girl I worked as a law clerk with previously nearly didn’t recognize me. =)
stc
No hoodies in WA!
Anonymous
i wore uggs and sweats to the FL bar. i have major respect for you VA bar ladies! good luck!
SUCL 3L
I heard rumor that we’re not allowed to wear hoodies in FL. Sweatshirts ok, so long as there’s no hood.
MelD
@SUCL3L- hoodies are fine at the FL bar. I am not sure where you heard people couldn’t wear them.
M in CA
No hoodies in CA either! Well, I could wear the actual hoodie, but I had to leave the “hood” part down.
KZ
I’m fairly certain it’s just a virginia thing.
LP7
To take the Virginia bar, you must be wearing a suit. Now personally, I bought and wore a comfortable 2-sizes-too-large suit for cheaps at TJMaxx. It was as good as wearing sweatpants. Virginia is not without irony as every person taking the bar, at least when I took it, had to wear sneakers so as to reduce the noise level in the convention center. No heels and no flip flops. It was quite a look.
Ex-3L Sarah
Oh yeah. I bought a cotton suit at Old Navy that I’m banking on being breathable in Roanoke in July. I have some Puma black flats that I was going to wear – soft-soled and comfy!
KWUM
ugh. so glad I didn’t stay in VA for law school [though I do miss it!]. I remember hearing that back in the day ladies HAD to wear skirt suits–is that still true?
Ex-3L Sarah
No, we can wear pantsuits now. Although I get the distinct impression that the “pantsuits are OK” rule was not done voluntarily by the bar examiners… :-D
E
I went to Oxford. For every exam I had to wear ‘subfusc’: a white button-up shirt with a black ribbon loosely tied under the collar, a black skirt, black stockings, black shoes, and of course a gown and soft cap over the lot.
Much trickier than just a suit – though I did rather like it! So did the student body. A referendum on whether or not to get rid of the subfusc requirement a few years ago met with 89% approval for subfusc.
S
Don’t forget the carnation in your button-hole! The gown (and everything under it) was far too warm for Spring.
Grump
Frump and I look back with fondness on our sub fusc-wearing days. Sadly, we always thought it rather ironic that whilst we attempted to look demure and put-together whilst wearing academic dress – even in exam season with only a few hours worth of sleep – there were many who turned up less well-dressed. We were never quite sure what was worse: ‘spent’fusc (i.e. the ladies in black mini skirts) or sub(versive revolutionary) fusc – a look that required dreadlocks and a slightly unwashed appearance in order for the wearer to achieve maximal effect.
Moreover, having spent my undergrad days at Cambridge, I certainly see the advantages of sub fusc and agree with E in that it’s rather hard to get one’s outfit looking ‘just so.’
Biglaw Refugee
Yes, just a VA thing. No dress code in either of the two states I’ve taken.
Shayna
There’s a difference between a sundress that shows your bra straps, and sundress topped with a cardigan — that stays on the entire day! That looks demure, albeit business casual (obviously).
Claire
I love that you own Wonder Woman cufflinks! Quiet rebellion…
Ex-3L Sarah
Etsy is pretty fabulous when it comes to off-beat cufflinks. I really wanted ones that were minature pieces of cheesecake, but I wasn’t willing to pay $50 + shipping from Finland for them.
A
I passed the VA bar in 2005, and, yes, they have to wear suits. At the time they were one of only two states that still required it. (I think the other one was KY.) I recommend wearing a plain cotton shirt underneath for comfort (I wore some V-necks I got from AT), and some rubber soled shoes of some kind (professional looking or otherwise). Honestly, I think wearing a suit made me put my game face on and helped my performance on the exam.
I know this is way off topic in this thread, but related to the VA bar. If you can swing it, and if you are based in DC or Northern VA and taking the July bar, you may want to plan to spend the extra night after the exam in Roanoke. That highway from Roanoke to DC is TREACHEROUS, and you do not want to drive it while exhausted. A couple years ago two brothers who went to my highschool were killed in an accident when they were sandwiched between two trucks on that highway.
Ex-3L Sarah
I’m already planning on spending the night in Roanoke after the Bar. No worries! :-) I’m actually flying home to Chicago afterward, but I didn’t want to deal with having to pack AND get myself to the airport AND check in AND get myself all the way home while exhausted AND needing a drink AND my pajamas.
I’m getting in Sunday afternoon, Bar is Tuesday-Wednesday, just in case too.
Anonymous
PSA: the VA bar instruction letter says no “athletic shoes.” much as i would like to tweak the bar examiners by wearing my green diesel sneakers with my suit, i think i’ll be playing it safe with my rainy day (read: rubber soled) naturalizer flats.
C
When these interns start job-hunting in this economy, they will either sink or swim, sartorially speaking. If they choose inappropriate attire, it may make the difference between getting hired, or not.
At my Fortune 100 company (I practice law in-house), we once decided against a very qualified applicant because she showed up for her interview in a pair of black pants and a shirt, with sandals. She looked perfectly nice, but not interview-appropriate, and her overall demeanor was a little too comfortable. We decided that it showed a lack of judgment.
Amy
That’s my thinking too. You can only do so much to warn people. Eventually those who don’t listen to advice about professionalism will receive a pride-obliterating slap upside the head to correct their course, from someone. Sucks that it’s probably going to be a boss or senior manager that does it – maybe in a performance review where raises are being considered. Probably would be easier to just listen to well-intentioned advice from uninvolved third parties, but some people have to experience the negative consequences before they internalize a message about changing their behavior, they won’t listen to advice.
Forestgirl
I probably mostly agree with your post, but maybe some of what they were responding to in the comments was your tone? The tone was pretty . . . snarky. I be annoyed if someone took such a snarky tone with me, even if they were completely right. :-)
Forestgirl
That should be “I’d be,” sorry.
Shayna
Patronizing was the tone I took away from it, but same point. No one likes to be lectured in such an annoyed tone – even if it was funny for those of us on the other side of the interviewing table! And those interns who shake their heads at their colleagues who wear low cut dresses were likely going, yes, duh, and laughing a bit as well ;-)
Experienced
One of the replys makes reference to the First Lady, stating that you would likely be critical of this “Harvard graduate lawyer’s” wardrobe choices also. Much has been made of Michelle Obama as a style icon and lawyer, working mother. Her biggest fans applaud her for “not caring” what others think and boldly wearing what “makes her happy” and “setting new style boundaries”. It was interesting to me that one of the critical replys to your PSA dragged Michelle Obama into the fray. Thoughts?
JessC
I would bet that that “Harvard graduate lawyer” wore a suit or covered up her uber-toned arms when going to court or meeting with a client. Just a thought.
Sure she wears what she wants, she’s the. first. lady. Who’s gonna tell her not to? When those commenters on the DC Intern blog are First Ladies, they can wear whatever they darn well please. :)
PurpleViolet
Michelle Obama is beautiful and I love her clothes. However, she did bare her arms at the first State of the Union address and she was pretty much the only person in the room to do so. Granted, the other women were there as Congresswomen or Justices while she was there as a wife and First Lady. Think Mad Men when the wives wear the LBD to support their husbands at dinner. The men were in suits.
But, I still agree with JessC that she most likely wore a suit at HER job.
Erin
I think that Michelle Obama would wear a suit to a business meeting. She doesn’t wear bare arms for formal business events, which is what DC Lawyer was writing about. I’ve never, ever seen Michelle Obama look inappropriately dressed. Also, there’s something to be said for the fact that she’s the first lady – she doesn’t have to impress anyone and she’s not trying to get ahead. If you’re an intern trying to get a job, your outfit needs to convey a sense of appropriateness, decorum, and judgment. Period.
A
I just find it a bit hilarious that “young people” are being singled out as the fashion offenders. Don’t get me wrong — I’m a 2L and come oral argument time at the end of our first year, I saw some atrocious ensembles that were supposed to pass as “professional.” But I’m interning for a judge this summer and the “young people” in the courthouse seem much better dressed than many of the veterans. I can always spot the male interns because they’re usually the guys in the pressed white shirts, colorful ties, and pinstriped pants. I can always spot the female interns because they’re wearing cardigans with blouses and pencil skirts (and closed toe heels!). But if I had a dollar for every attorney who walked into the courtroom in a rumpled shirt, navy blazer (two sizes too big or small) and khaki pants, I’d be able to take myself out to lunch for a week straight. And don’t get me started on the forty-something lawyer who showed up the other day wearing 4.5″ black gladiator heels with her miniskirt.
My point is simply that for every sundress or leopard print tank top, ten other “young people” are dressing appropriately. Some people simply have poor taste in fashion and no sense of their environment, regardless of age.
MK
ah I’ve been waiting for this! I was invited to a parade with a reception preceeding it. It is a military event, so the dress code is dress blues, or “business suit” for civilians. I know people have mentioned things like a fun necklace to dress up a suit, but my question is more does business suit mean
business suit. Can I wear a dress and a blazer? just a dress (probably not)? What can I do to look formal but not like I am going on an interview?
Eponine
I think that any sort of formal business attire is fine. Normally invitations refer to the appropriate dress for men, with the assumption that women will adapt to appropriate women’s attire at the same level of formality. I think a dress and jacket or cardigan is fine.
Marine Corps Wife
Argh. Comment got stuck in moderation. If the servicemembers are in their dress blues (the most formal uniform they have–reserved only for very special occasions such as weddings and balls as well as ceremonial purposes) and civilian men are supposed to wear suits then women will very likely be in cocktail attire.
MK
I read the invitation too quickly (excited :) Blue/ White B or equivalent, and for civilians it says business suit, I’m sure that changes things. thank you for your help!
Claire
Does the dress code specify “business” dress for civilians? DH is a Marine and in the Marines their dress blues are the civilian equivalent of a tux. If the dress code has been clearly labeled as business then go with that but I’m feeling that this might be more of a cocktail dress type of event. I’m assuming you were invited to this event by a member of the military? You should ask him/her what civilians usually wear. Or google pics of last years event. Generally speaking, things like this are more of a party than a professional/networking event. If you don’t mind giving more details about the event I could probably be more helpful.
MK
I actually read it too quickly, it is Blue/ White B or equivalent, and for civilians it says business suit. So more casual then I was originally picturing
Anonymous
I think you have a bit of latitude here, given that you are a civilian–and a female–attending a military event. I am an attorney but also a military wife (I mention this only to note that I’ve been to many “professional” events and military events), and while I’ve never been to a pre-parade military reception, I will say that of all the military events I’ve attended, formal and otherwise, women’s dress runs the gamut–from uber-girly (i.e., brightly colored, flowery dresses) to professional wear.
It would be helpful to know more specifics on your particular connection to the event or role in it (i.e., business? pleasure? accompanying someone on business?), but from what you’ve written, I would recommend wearing a dress and a blazer, particularly if you are there for a business purpose. I would stay away from the cardigan, personally, as I tend to view dresses with cardigans as too casual for business purposes (that may be just me), but if you feel more comfortable/at ease in a cardigan instead of a blazer, go for it. I would simply choose to err on the more formal side. Plus, if you get there and see women dressed less formally, you can always take your blazer off!
MK
Thank you for that input. Business, I am a summer clerk, I would really like to wear a dress and a blazer so that is very helpful!
Emily
I think “dress and a cardigan” is a bit broad of a definition, which could be confusing for some interns. Strappy or flowery dress with wispy white sweater? Good for an afternoon wedding or Sunday brunch, but not for business setting (especially if you’re young and don’t want to remind the older folks of their daughters). But a power dress, often in a solid color with either a single structural embellishment or no embellishment, with a structured cardigan (or blazer!) and a good pair of heels, can be a very powerful outfit to wear in a business setting.
Nita
Whoa! This wouldn’t be the Marine Corps Friday night parade with reception beforehand, would it? In that case, you won’t want to wear a business suit, but a nice dress or skirt with jacket or sweater. (If the reception is at the Commandant’s house, as opposed to the Barracks, dress is “nice garden party.”) Keep in mind, if you’re attending the parade, you’ll be sitting outdoors in bleachers for a couple of hours. Some discreet Eau de Antibug tucked in your clutch might be helpful. And don’t wear anything that would be ruined by a few raindrops, as “the Parade must go on.”
Nita
PS – Pants OK in place of skirt — I would say “dressy slacks” if that term has any meaning for people born in or after the ’80s.
MK
I laughed at loud at “Eau de Antibug!” No it is the Sunset parade at the War Memorial.
Nordstrom question
I loves clothes from the Classiques Entier brand, and recently discovered clothing from the Classiques Entier Atelier brand. It’s in a different department in the store (Studio 121, not the Individualist department where the other CE stuff is). Anyone know the difference between these two brands?
AnneCatherine
I think it’s (Atelier) fancier/funkier/more detailed, but don’t hold me to that.
2L
I’m starting a judicial clerkship next week for a justice on a conservative state supreme court. I know I’ll be showing up day one in my interview suit and entire boring get up (black skirt suit, white shirt, short black pumps, panty hose, pearls). Here’s the question: how long do you all think I can get away with only 2 suits (one black, one very dark gray)?
I do have a nice professional wardrobe, but it’s mostly shift dresses and cardigans, not nearly as professional as the suit get-up. Can I just throw my suit jacket over a dress? Or should I just bite the bullet and buy another suit (I was thinking heather gray, similar to Wednesday’s suit from this week)?
Eponine
It depends. You may not be required to wear a suit in chambers, or you might have to wear one every day. Some judges allow business casual in chambers, and most would allow a dress or slacks with a jacket (as opposed to a full, matching suit). But your mileage may vary, so I recommend waiting until day one and asking about the dress code before you buy anything.
If you do need to wear a suit every day, I think you’d need at least 3 – dry cleaning usually takes more than one day, so you’d need the other two to wear on different days while the third is being cleaned. Probably best to avoid wearing the same suit 2 days in a row.
v
It depends on your judge. The judges in the courthouse I clerked in spanned the whole spectrum – some wanted suits every day; some didn’t mind their clerks showing up in jeans unless they were actually going to be sitting in on arguments. If you don’t have the contact info for a previous/current female law clerk for your judge to ask, I’d wait until you start work and can find out what’s required.
cj
On a tangentially related note, someone mentioned awhile ago that there are 1 or 2 Brooks Bros. sales per year – can anyone remind me when it/they are? I want to try integrating some nicer dress shirts into my repertoire. Sorry to make people repeat themselves. Thanks and happy weekend!
Ex-3L Sarah
Word on the street is that one starts on Monday, but I can’t verify it. :-( I have noticed, however, that they usually have sales around the change of fashion season to move their old merchandise.
k
I got a sale catalog in the mail yesterday.
Lucy
June 21. I got a letter.
They also do one in January (or dec.).
AnneCatherine
Assuming they are both skirt suits, all summer (since skirts require less dry-cleaning than pants). If you have “spare” money (ha ha) then another suit, sure, and I’d suggest a grey patterned one (windowpane plaid, for instance-faint of course) or a blue pin-striped one. But you can wear the two suits you have all summer, just switching out tops.
Emily
Are both skirt suits? Can you buy pants for one or both? Then you could definitely make it through the first week, and it’s cheaper than buying a new suit. Also think about spills…if you plan to have only two, and you spill something or get the jacket stinky on the first day, then you have one suit for the rest of the week. That’s not good.
As a woman who has to wear suits every day, I say you probably need three good classic suits with skirts and pants to be able to rotate effectively. If your judge is a skirts-only kind, you probably need 4 suits.
I have four classic-style suits, and three “trendy” suits that have a ruffle or three-quarter length sleeves or other interesting detail. The classic suits get rotated, and I usually wear one trendy suit a week. Trendy suits are often cheaper; sometimes you can buy just an alternate jacket that matches the skirts you already own.
Good luck! Have fun!
KM
Congrats on the clerkship! I’d say that you may need to purchase one additional suit OR you could just “fill out” your current suits (which is what I did when I started my job). If you have a skirt suit, try and find the pants and skirt to match and now you have 3 suits. Or if you’ve got a pants suit buy the skirt and dress. You get the idea.
I have actually done this with some of my older Banana Republic suits through ebay on the cheap (I’m sure you could do it with other brands as well). The trick is to make sure you are purchasing items from the same season (or close to the same season) so your colors match.
This is pretty easy to determine — on my BR suits there is a tag near the dry clean only tag. This tag is white and on it is the style number at the top. Below the style number is another number which will either be F, H, W, or S (varies on brand) followed by a number which is the date. Look at your existing pieces for this information. Then do an ebay search for the missing item (skirt or pants). Once you’ve narrowed it down as much as you can send the seller a message asking for the information described above.
I have expanded several suits this way and have saved a TON of money. You could also do the same thing at your local consignment store or thrift shop (if you are so inclined — remember anything can be drycleaned).
Finally (and I’m sorry for the long post) Ann Taylor and Loft are both having their big sales right now so you could always check that out too!
Dee
Not the OP, but in the same shoes – this is a great idea and thanks for the detailed info!
Bonnie
If you want to save money while adding variety to your wardrobe, you can buy patterned or colorful blazers to wear with the skirts. Nothing crazy, but a plaid or royal blue can still be conservative. The same holds true for skirts that you can wear with the basic blazers. Just remember to always dry clean both parts of the suit at the same time to avoid uneven fading.
MelD
I think you’ll probably do fine mixing and matching what you have, since it’s unlikely you will need a matching suit every day. If you do need more matching suits, there’s no need to go for the conservative type if you already have two that you can wear to interviews. You can probably find something a little more fun/summery on sale at this point and won’t need to spend an arm and a leg.
actual clerk
you’re an extern (or intern if you prefer), not a clerk
Sarah
And you’re being sort of a weiner. (From another “actual” clerk.)
annie
i’m also an “actual” clerk. maybe the point clerk 1 was trying to make is that the standard isn’t as stringent for externs as it is for year-round court employees. i think there may be something to that (though i’m not sure if that’s what she was getting at). either way, dressing professionally should apply irrespective of what your position is. with that in mind, i will give you the best advice i can on this topic. show up on the first day in the traditional suit you described (though you don’t have to go so far as to edit your pumps). it will show that you have respect for the position. i am of the mindset that you cannot go wrong with a traditional black suit on the first day of a legal job (or any job, i guess). it is likely that a female co-worker will comment on how sharp you look, and then let you in on the dress code that flies in your judge’s chambers. (i’ve done this multiple times for externs). if no one approaches you, perhaps ask a co-worker yourself.
where i work, i only wear a suit when i attend an oral argument, which is about once a month (if not less often). for the rest of the week, i stick to sheath dresses, slacks, skirts, and jeans on casual friday.
a new suit is a good investment piece for any young career woman. if you have your eye on one, i say go for it. you can use the pieces of the suit as separates to switch up your wardrobe. also, check out the gap. they have great work clothes and everything is eventually on sale there. i credit that store with over half of my work wear. best of luck to you! i hope you enjoy the experience!
Dee
I’m in a similar position – conservative summer job, two suits (black and gray, Banana Republic and JCrew). I have skirts and pants for both of my suits and have decided to try to go the whole summer in just the two suits. I got a bunch of Banana Republic “luxe” tees to mix it up. Oh, and I have a drop-off-AM-pick-up-PM dry cleaner. I was concerned about this before the summer started, and I would love to have a third suit, but it’s not the end of the world by a long shot.
I also have only two pairs of shoes – 1″ heels and 2.5″ heels that I wear with pants and skirts, respectively. Oh and ballet flats for commuting.
2L
OP here,
Thanks so much for all the advice. I’m sure I can make it through week one with what I’ve got and will feel out my justice and others in the courthouse for what attire is appropriate/expected.
My only suits are skirt suits, and I refuse to wear pants suits (partially because of the whole traditionalist thing but mostly because I find skirts infinitely more comfortable), so I’m not sure adding pants is the best idea for me. However, I do have a few other jackets (non-suit, like this amazing kelly green one from Tahari that I’m obsessed with), do you think I can sort of “fake” a few more suits out of that? Or do non-matching separates look weird?
annie: I just say short pumps because I tend to love 3.5 stilettos only to be sassed about how inappropriate they are. Just bought my first pair of 2.5 inch pumps and they feel minuscule!
actual clerk: I’m not sure if this is difference in one court versus another, but the position I was hired for is “Law Clerk.” Is it in bad form to refer to myself as a summer clerk? I’m in no way trying to make myself sound important, that’s just what the justice and everyone I’ve talked to have referred to the position
E
You should definitely be able to get away with the same suit two days in a row – just try to wear sufficiently different tops underneath that it doesn’t look like the same *outfit* two days in a row and you’ll be fine.
A
If your Justice referred to you that way, I think you are safe to do the same. Don’t worry about it :). We refer to our intern as an intern, but my guess is that it varies from court to court and maybe even chambers to chambers.
Our chambers are pretty conservative, but one of my predecessors (the gold standard in conservative female dress in our chambers) used to pretty frequently wear a sheath and a jacket as well as pants suits. I prefer skirt suits too (at least my in my currently pregnant body), and I think that a summer clerk is wise to always be court ready. You never know whether your Justice will know of something going on in a lower court and send you to hear it (you probably will know what the argument schedule is and whether you will be sitting in on those though!) That said, definitely ask a female clerk in chambers when you first start. If there isn’t one, ask one of the men and see how they react. I find that the male response to that particular question is always pretty amusing.
Amber
I worked in a state supreme court in a conservative state, as well. I often wore pants and a non-matching jacket or structured cardigan rather than an actual suit and was not out of place at all. The only day I felt I absolutely had to wear an actual suit was on oral argument days.
Like everyone else said, different chambers operated differently. Mine was the most formal, though, and I wore something between business casual and business formal on most days.
JessC
If you’re there 5 days a week, I would recommend maybe getting one more suit or a couple separates (colored or patterned jacket or skirt – depending on your coloring, I recommend khaki/cream). I know a lot of posters may disagree with me on this, but I highly recommend The Limited. Prices are pretty reasonable and I believe they’re having a sale right now. Alot of women in my office wear stuff from there (recent law grad and poorly paid gov’t employee here).
But if you absolutely can’t afford it, then don’t freak out and stick with what you’ve got.
annie
i definitely don 3 to 3.5 inch heels at work because i LOVE them! maybe other posters thing that is unprofessional, but no one has ever said anything to me about it. i usually wear pants though, so I guess my co-workers can’t tell most of the time. i’m sure whatever you picked will be great. good luck again!
annie
thing = think! sorry!
LawIntern
I’m in the middle of a my judicial internship and I can’t tell you how many times I thought I didn’t have court (and thus thought I could wear the dres with a cardigan) and ended up meeting a judge. I now treat every single day like it’s a potential interview/court day. I spent $300 at Loehmann’s and got 3 more suits. It’s worth every penny. Yeah, they’re not the nicest suits, but they are suits.
Taylor
You can get Kasper or Le Suit for 100 bucks a pop on sale.
Alex8785
I COMPLETELY agree!! I was an extern for a federal judge and I wore a suit every day. I would take off the jacket when I was in chambers, but you never know when you will need to be in a full suit. Also, while pants suits were okay for the judge I worked for. My friend worked for a judge that required skirt suits and pantyhose every day. The best thing to do would be to talk to the judge and possibly any other female clerks.
s in Chicago
Do you live near any Ann Taylor outlets? I’ve gotten some really great suits there at low cost. Highly recommend for those on a tight budget. They hold up well, too.
Lee
I’ve clerked for two very conservative federal judges, one male and one female, and in both cases the dress code was “business professional.” In practice, that meant that there was some latitude allowing suit separates and dress and jacket. With the separates I always wore pieces that looked like they could be part of a suit, even if they were not, like gray wool herringbone pants or something with a black blazer or a navy pinstripe skirt with an ivory blazer. With the dress and jacket combo I just made sure that the dress looked professional in material, color, and cut.
I think my judges were on the strict side when it came to dress and it wasn’t the most fun or creative thing in the world, but it made getting ready easy. If your judge is like mine, you can probably get by with two suits if you have lots of professional separates…but you might want to get a couple more inexpensive suits to save on dry cleaning. Courthouses aren’t fashion scenes and nobody pays attention to what clerks wear anyways as long as it’s not crazy or inappropriate.
Emily
Absolutely true. My judge claimed to be “business conservative,” but he really meant “government conservative” – his suits had been worn so long the seams had given out in the pants, elbows were shiny, collars were discolored. But they were suits, regardless. I never felt like I had to wear expensive or even well-maintained suits to satisfy the dress code; I just had to wear a jacket that matched or my bottoms.
K3L
Botox Question!! I’m turning 28 next week (yay?) and I was thinking of getting myself Botox to ward off wrinkles. I’ve read here and elsewhere that it’s helpful, in that it prevents you from furrowing your brow, etc. a) is that right? b) any recommendations on how to choose a doctor/what to ask/how to proceed/etc.?
I live in a Deep South city fairly hard hit by the recession, and a few places are advertising Botox, I’m sure to spur some business when injectables are probably one of the first things people go without. I’ve seen an average price of just over $200 for a forehead. Does that seem appropriately inexpensive? Would those of you who’ve had it consider it worth it at my age?
For what it’s worth, I’m a law student and a horseback rider. I’ve got stress and squint lines, though they’re faint. I’d rather not look like my mom or grandmother any earlier than I have to (even though they are fantastic). Thank you!!
Kimbo
I honestly wouldn’t get it at such a young age. If you continue to get it, there’s a high likelihood that eventually you’ll start to get prominent wrinkles at the inside corners of your eyes. Everyone I know who’s gotten it in their 20’s (and even most of the people I know who have gotten it in their early 30’s) has regretted it and felt it’s not worth it.
If you are set on getting it, $200 seems very inexpensive, but I’m in a different area, so it could be regional differences.
I’d recommend asking around to find a reputable dermatologist rather than getting it at a MedSpa, but that may be more expensive, so it’s up to you. However, a dermatologist might also be able to recommend some other options. (Retin-A is an amazing way to prevent wrinkles, for example.) (And yes, there are still dermatologists who aren’t injectable-happy! Shocking, I know!)
lawDJ
I second RetinA!! I’m 31 and everyone thinks I’m 24. I think RetinA made all the difference. I was looking older at 28 than I do now, and it’s all been through prescribed low doses of RetinA IMO.
MidSouth Atty
Like you’ve mentioned in your post, botox can help PREVENT wrinkles from getting so bad that they cannot be corrected without invasive surgery. If you have the beginnings of deep forehead lines that are there even when you are expressionless, I’d say go ahead and get the Botox! It will help eliminate the lines and more importantly — will prevent them from getting worse. Those types of lines cannot be helped by Retin A (trust me, I’ve used Retin A since I was 26 and just turned 30). I do second the suggestion that you begin using a retinol, which will help to reverse sun damage (what most “wrinkles” and fine lines are anyway) but if you want the botox – go ahead and get it. I just did it for my 30th birthday, and have not regretted it at all! It took years off my face and was an awesome gift to myself. $200 is reasonable, I paid $12.50 a cc, and used around 30 cc’s for my entire forehead and the “11” in between my brows. Best money I’ve spent in awhile.
Chicagoist
I just recently got an Rx for Retin-A. Do you think it’s okay to use the stuff around the eyes? Forehead, fine, but I’m wary of chemical peel-y stuff around the peepers. Thoughts?
lawDJ
IMO depends on how “heavy” your prescription is. I think mine is 0.25%. Try it first on your face and see what happens. I didn’t experience the peeling many people do, so I do use it around my eyes.
ceb
For me it depends on the suspension. When I used the gel-type Retin-A, I did not. Now that I use the emollient cream type Retin-A/tretinoin (like Renova, etc. See my post below), I do feel comfortable using it to prevent “crows feet” next to my eyes. I do not use it on the delicate skin below my eyes. Instead, I use an OTC wrinkle preventative on that area of my eye (After spending/wasting loads of money on expensive stuff, I have seen the light. In conjuction with the above prescription, I am now using Olay Regenerist Serum . . . I have received so many compliments the past few weeks on how great my skin looks. This stuff is cheap and awesome!)
Anonymous
I was right where you were a couple years ago. Wanted to get Botox at 29, but my dermatologist said no. Instead he prescribed a tretinoin emollient cream (like Renova), and when used nightly, it has done wonders to reduce my forehead lines. It isn’t covered by my insurance and is around $120/tube, but it is worth every penny! A tube lasts me about 6 months.
I would try a strong topical prescription before you move on to the more drastic injectables.
Also, I would never, NEVER, go to anyone other than a reputable doctor for Botox. I have heard way too many stories of women who had serious and lasting damage done by med-spas.
Spanx Question
Ladies, how long does a typical pair of spanx last for you? I have one of the high-waisted ones that hook up to the bra and also shape thighs. I’ve had it for about a year and while it still works ok, it has a lot of those little fuzz balls all over the legs (I guess from rubbing against pant legs). Is this normal? Did I somehow ruin it? How long should it last?
Erin
I had a couple pairs once and they lasted for much less time than I’d have expected. I probably got 10-15 wears out of each pair. They were high-waisted ones that went down to about my knees, and they pilled and got holes in the crotch.
myohmy
Okay, here’s a question.
I am a new grad, who just started a three month internship/trial period at a company (basically, if they like me at the end of the summer, they’ll pull me on full time and give me a higher salary to boot). While I certainly hope this is the case as I like the company and enjoy the work, I’m also not silly enough to think that this means I shouldn’t be keeping my eyes open to other jobs, particularly as it gets closer to the end of the summer.
And thus the question of interview suits comes up. I have one suit and I *hate* it. I followed all the Corporette advice as best I good – it is a dark gray suit, it is conservative, it is three-season wool, etc. But I *hate* it. And I think that actually makes a difference in my interviewing skills, as I feel less confident because I feel ugly and slightly dowdy, and I think that may unconsciously influence the way I project myself – either as less confident or overly preoccupied with playing with the button, adjusting the skirt, etc etc).
Now I thought this was just… growing pains? I guess you could call it that. In other words, I thought that it was just that I was unused to wearing a suit (I was) and as I got used to it, it would feel a little more “normal” and I would be a little more comfortable in it. Well, now I’ve been wearing it to occasions that required a suit (mostly interviews) for the past year, and I have to say — I haven’t. I still feel ugly in it.
Now, you might ask why I didn’ t just buy a suit I *liked* in the first place. I had to buy a suit on pretty short notice – I got an interview invite from a graduate program midsummer of 2009 that wanted me to come in early August. I was interning in a location without a *lot* of big name shopping, and midsummer, almost none of the retailers I would have expected to be carrying suits in my price range (Macy’s, BR, J. Crew) actually *were* doing so in-store. I didn’t have time to order online, try on, send back etc, if it didn’t fit, so I just bought the only suit Ann Taylor had in stock in stoer. It seemed fine, basic, appropriate, boring, all the things an interview suit should be, and I did need an interview suit.
Now that I’m facing perhaps more interviews at the end of summer, I was thinking perhaps of finding a new suit but it seems like SUCH an expense on an already quite limited budget, particularly when I don’t actually *need* it. Part of me wonders about the psychology of it – if I don’t look as attractive as I could (and I mean professionally attractive, not sexy) am I unconsciously putting people off? Should I be looking for a new suit with a cut perhaps better for my body (this has *slight* padding in the shoulders and I have broad shoulders, the suit jacket didn’t fit in regular, so I went down to petite sizes, which fits but is a little less comfortable, etc) because it really does make a difference, if not in the way people perceive me, in the way I present myself? How important is it that I feel *great* and confident in my interview suit, considering the substantial expense of buying a second suit (when I am in a field where I really don’t need *any* suit except for interviews)?
This is long, but I’d appreciate anyone’s advice.
Amber
I’m a HUGE believer in feeling confident in your interview suit. I would get a new one because clothing really can make a big difference in how you present yourself.
Since you don’t often need a suit, though, is it possible to get the one that you have tailored in some way that will make you feel more confident in it? Can you play around with the shirt you wear under or your shoes or something (up to a point) to make you feel more confident?
Although I do generally agree that interview clothing should be conservative in many fields, you don’t have to dress like you have no personality at all.
JLaw
Second on maybe getting it tailored. I had several suits that I bought early in law school that I felt sooo unattractive in but had never really gotten clothing tailored before. When I finally sucked it up and went I was amazed at the difference in how I felt in the suit.
If tailoring isn’t the issue though, I recommend just buying another suit. I’m not sure what industry you’re in, but you might be able to get away with a less expensive suit, as long as you, again, get it tailored.
Emily
Since you have more time now than last time, go around and try on suits, even if they aren’t exactly in your price range. Then you can figure out what kinds of suits make you feel great. There may be a sale or coupon coming up soon, or you can look for the pieces on EBay.
I think an interview suit should make you feel like you at least deserve the job, if not feel like you’re almost too good for the job. Interviews are nerve-wracking enough without wardrobe hangups.
Also, can you sell your old suit? Upscale women’s consignment stores (ours is called Plato’s Closet), or Craigslist might get you some money back on it. Or could you arrange a professional clothes swap with some friends, or with a church group?
A
I second Amber’s response — it is critical to feel your best in your interview suit. I’m not a big fan of suits either, but getting one that fits well and that you feel confident in will be a huge asset in interviews. It sounds like you have a little time before you might need one, so I would try your luck at a few non-traditional spots to see if you find anything — Nordstrom Rack, outlet malls, TJ Maxx/Ross, etc. I found a great deal on overstock the other day (nice suit from a big name for $90 — I haven’t received it yet, so fingers crossed it doesn’t need to be tailored or anything). You might be able to score a good deal if you are able to take the time to go to some of these “hit or miss” type spots. Good luck!!
Shayna
Agree — I’ve found some great suits on Marshall’s clearance rack… When I’m looking for something I check in there, TJ Maxx, and Burlington Coat Factory (the discount stores near me that carry high end suits on occasion), on a weekly basis (they’re all clustered in the same shopping area), until I luck into my size being the one that some store ordered too much of ;-)
Also, maybe some tailoring would help? I had suit (jacket and pants) nipped, tucked, and hemmed for about $25 which was (thankfully) far cheaper than a new suit.
CJ in CA
Get a second suit if you can. BUT, do try on quite a few just to be sure that it’s that suit that’s the problem and not all of them. It definitely makes a difference in your attitude and confidence.
I’ll second overstock.com and smartbargains.com but only after a trip to Ann Taylor, Banana Republic, J. Crew, and Nordstroms/ Macy’s to try on at least 5 suits. Then you’ll know what to look for in cut, fabric, and size/style. Calvin Klein, Ann Klein, Tahari, and Jones NY seem to come up on those sites, and so if you find one of those at Macy’s or Nordstroms you can see what size fits you.
Blonde Lawyer
I recommend checking out the express editor pants (wide waist band) and matching suit jacket. Depending on your body type it will look the perfect combo of professional yet young and stylish. I know most people on here think Express is forbidden for work but if you lack in the curves department it is hard to find suits that are flattering. I find theirs are great.
cj
Haven’t tried the jackets, but completely agree re: the pants. It’s hard to find “grown-up” pants that fit when you don’t have hips.
Clerky
Interesting comment about Express. I’m very curvy and love their Editor pants, they are very flattering on me. I would make sure and go up 1 size if you need to to make sure they don’t look hoochiefied.
Kimbo
I’m glad to see someone else recommend Express. Sure, most of their dresses are not for work, but I’ve gotten some good suits, separates, and blouses there. Now that I’m starting to make a little more, I’ve been able to invest in some other pieces that will (hopefully) last a little longer, but I still go back to Express because I know the pants will fit. (Finding dress pants is the hardest thing for me; it’s usually a several day process.)
K
I would get a new suit. I had 2 interview suits when I was interviewing, so that I could have one for the first one, and one for callbacks, and made sure I felt great in both. I definitely noticed when I was wearing an uncomfortable shirt that I had to fiddle with, etc. You want to be as comfortable and confident as possible! :)
Ariella
So, I second chaired a three-day trial with my supervising partner this week. It was my first trial (I am five years out, but only three years of practice because I clerked for two years), and it was great!
But I wonder what the corporette ladies will think of this particular comment my supervising attorney (male) made to me. I was wearing heels (2.5″ black heels) with my suit. As we walked to the courthouse, he said, “Why do you wear high heels?” And I told him that it’s because that’s what women wear with their suits, and I don’t want people to judge me if I wear something else. His response? “Why do you care what so many people think? We don’t care what you wear, and if it makes your life easier, then go for it.”
So what do you think of that? It was refreshing, but even as he said it I thought, “There’s no way I could do that because everyone else would care.” But even as I thought that, I felt sad that we (and I) are all so worried about what everyone else thinks.
Anyway! Just a weird moment with my supervisor that I thought I’d share!
Lola
I think sometimes the men just don’t have any idea what it’s like to be (ahem) in our shoes.
As part of my job, I meet with clients frequently who doubt my ability because I’m a young-looking blonde woman. I get asked how old I am, what law school I went to, etc. I think a younger-looking man wouldn’t get the same questions. I told a male colleague recently that I (and other women in my office) have to deal with this almost every time. It hadn’t even occurred to him that this kind of thing would happen.
You could ask your partner why he doesn’t wear tennis shoes with his suit. Dressier shoes are just more formal.
xyz
The tennis shoes question is a great comeback.
Ariella’s and Lola’s comments also reminded me of something I’ve noticed about a lot of women wearing heels (not saying either is an offender; they just reminded me of an earlier observation!) — younger-appearing women will often wear heels in an attempt to appear more professional and business-like. Fine, totally legit. They will, however, unfortunately overlook the fact they cannot handle the heels they have chosen and will mince and wobble around all day, looking really young and inexperienced in the process. Anyone else notice this??
Ariella
I have definitely seen this, and probably did it in my younger years. I rarely wear a heel over 2.5″ for this very reason.
For some reason, I can’t seem to reconcile “formal” with flats, especially ballet flats.
Lola
I agree. I have a pair of low, black heels that I wear with suits that I wouldn’t wear outside the office. They just look too grandmotherly. But in court, they look Serious. And that’s kind of the point – they make me look older and more competent.
Along with that DC intern thread, it seems a lot of people mix up expensive/attractive/cute with serious and professional and adult.
CFM
Agreed, I think he said this comment because you were struggling in your heels. (And I say this as a fellow struggler!)
anon
That’s what I was thinking – the OP must have been hobbling or something for the partner to even notice her footwear.
cj
hahha I’ve totally been an offender of this. ;)
PJB
In particular, I’ve seen young women walk with their knees bent, looking like they are carefully walking over hot coals. Really cute, like young colts.
As to OP, I’ve had, over the years, several male attorneys question the need to wear heels in court. I consider it pleasant small talk.
That said, I would never go to court in anything but heels, double that “never” in a jury trial or appellate arguments.
Kimbo
Oddly, I’ve seen the opposite. It seems to me that I see a lot of older women trying to wear heels when they just can’t any more. (My mom went through this recently; her MS has progressed to the point where she just can’t do heels higher than 1.5″ or so anymore.) I think some of these women have worn heels their whole lives and just don’t realize that they can’t walk in them like they used to.
anon
He probably has no idea how harshly you (a woman) would judge her if she fails to wear heels.
Forestgirl
I don’t think that’s a weird comment for your supervisor to make. I think he was trying to be helpful and let you know that your supervisors do not expect you to wear impractical clothing.
I also think maybe you should really think about whether “everyone else would care.” First, that’s almost certainly not true–I’ve never judged another woman wearing flats with a suit, even in court, and I think it is likely that most people simply don’t care whether you fall into some idealized business professional look. If you are wearing decent flats with a professional suit, so what? The fact that you immediately thought that “everyone” would care suggests that maybe you lack a little confidence.
None of which is to say that you shouldn’t wear heels if you want to! I just think that if you let go a little of the fear that “everyone” is judging you, and reminded yourself that sometimes it is ok if you aren’t wearing the “perfect” outfit, you might be a little more comfortable.
Delta Sierra
Ariella – he sounds totally clueless. Also, beware of people who say “we” when it’s very likely just “he”.
nonny mouse
Like individual bloggers?
Erin
You wear heels because it’s more formal, and you might not care what your boss thinks, but if even one juror thought you looked sloppy it could affect your client, so better to err on the side of more formal.
Of course, if you have trouble walking in heels, you shouldn’t feel like you have to wear them – there are wedges, stacked heels and flats that are just as nice with a suit.
JessC
If by “we” he means the people in your office, well that’s all well and good. Wear flats around the office to your hearts content. But I have a feeling he’s not taking into account the judge and/or jury you were going to see at the courthouse.
That being said, I’ve seen a number of female attorneys wear flats or very low heels to court and never really thought much of it (unless maybe the shoes looked like my grandpa’s orthepedic shoes and the overall look was erring on the frumpy side). Heels are at least partially a personal choice – I’m very short and young looking. The added height helps me project at least more authority.
MK
Agreed, I’ve seen women pull off flats wonderfully. My calves are a little, ahem, thicker than I’d like, so when I wear flats I feel like I have marshmallow feet.
NoHeels
Well, I will continue to wear my very nice flats with my suits, and yes I am a litigator. A couple of back surgery’s in, and I refuse to believe that I have to further endanger my health and take pain medication in order to be properly dressed. A nice pair of flats is just as professional as heels. I think we as women need to get over this idea that the only formal shoes are heels. I know other women who have medical problems (albeit less serious than mine) that would be greatly relieved if they switched to flats, but attitudes like this keep them from doing so. That only heels are formal is a destructive idea.
Michelle
Nice flats can be just as professional, especially on a tall woman, if the rest of the outfit is professional (and I say that as a tall girl).
My work wardrobe for shoes consists entirely of 1.5-2″ kitten heels. Nothing that really looks “heel”ish. They’re easier to walk in, and since I’m already taller than many of my male coworkers, they don’t create a situation where the guys’ eye level is closer to my chest than my face.
Kit
This is as far from fashion as an open-thread topic can get, but here we go: Has anyone had good experiences with chiropractors? My hair stylist (I know… probably not the most credible source for medical advice) has used a chiropractor to help with her allergies. I suffer from the occasional migraine and would prefer to avoid using drugs to treat them. I am curious if anyone has been successful with treatment from a chiropractor for non-back related issues. I’ve often considered this area of chiropractic to be quackish (word?). Bring on the testimonials.
K3L
My opinion? Not really. They help in the moment. The second you stop going, it stops working. If other people have different experiences, more power to them, but everyone in my family has seen a chiropractor at one point or another, and we’ve all had the same results.
Kimbo
I’ve had luck with a chiropractor for headaches, but not for migraines. Are you sure the headaches you’re getting are migraines or are they just really bad headaches? (I’ve actually has some headaches that hurt worse than some of my migraines.) Does that make any sense?
Anyway, if you think it might help, I’d say it’s worth at least trying it out. You’ll know within a couple of weeks if the treatment working for you. And, surprisingly, most health insurance plans cover it to a certain point, so there’s really no harm in trying it out.
Also, there are some reputable chiropractors who will turn patients away if their headaches aren’t the kind that can be treated by back and neck adjustments, but I’m sure they’re not all like this.
Migraine-y
I have suffered from migraines since I was 11 years old–hereditary (thanks mom.) and triggered by things like stress, excessive amounts of cheese, hormones, lack of sleep, anxiety, etc. I get the standard aura, followed by shooting pain on one side of my head, as well as pinpoint vision (no perephrial narrowed to almost blindness), sound and light sensitivity, nausea, and numbness on one side of my face and usually the entire side of my body. It’s a lovely experience.
I have taken the gamut of drugs from over the counter (Excedrine Migraine) to the majorly prescribed (imitrex, maxalt, relpax). I have found that Maxalt and Relpax work best for me, although I still feel like I’ve been hit by a truck and don’t have a fully functioning brain a day later.
I just graduated from law school and I am preparing to take the Bar. Obviously, this migraine issue had me concerned–the Bar is only offered one day! After steadily increasing my number of migraines from about one a month through high school and college to several a month in law school, including one the NIGHT before a commercial transactions final, I finally snapped. For the past month I’ve been taking a preventative medication, Topamax. It’s technically an anti-seizure drug, but has worked well for migraine prevention. So far so good, and I have not had any of the scary side effects that the medical blogs suggest. It might be something to look into.
As a side note, fellow migraine sufferers, how do you bring up migraine-handicaps in the workplace? When I have gotten them while clerking, it hasn’t been that big of a deal. However, what about “in the real world?” Any suggestions?
Shayna
I’m a migraineur (and the daughter of one as well) — I find that describing the more crippling symptoms briefly is necessary because many people call every single headache – sinus, cold, whatever – a migraine, and they are so not the same… You wouldn’t downplay having pneumonia as the same as a small cold, so be truthful about this – but brief.
Good luck with the Topamax — my mom was on it for 10 years, but had to stop b/d it was killing her memory.
mille
I have all the symptoms that you do, and am not able to take most of the medications because I have asthma. What works for me sometimes is a beta-blocker like propranalol. I have to take a large dose right away, before I start throwing up. Also coffee seems to help slow down the onset of the migraine, but doesn’t help with the actual headache.
I agree with Shayna’s advice. Explaining your symptoms helps because otherwise people think you are being a baby about a little headache. I kind of lucked out because the first time I called in sick with a migraine, the emergency room had to call in for me because I was screaming in pain and couldn’t form sentences. Work could hear me screaming for help in the background. At that point, my work understood how seriously debilitating migraines can be.
Sometimes I can’t tell the difference between a migraine and a stroke, so I end up in the hospital. And they give me morphine, which seems to help a little. The other thing with migraines is they don’t come on so often that you’ll be using all your sick time up quickly, so no one should make an issue out of it.
My triggers are bleach, ammonia (like in Windex), lack of sleep, too much sleep, stress (my theory is that I am not breathing deep enough when stressed out), and too many pickles. I’ve been triggered by one sip from heavily chlorinated water. Also, if I am out at a restaurant and they are using mild bleach to clean the tables, I am toast. I’ve had to have my small office switch bathroom cleaners because of my headaches.
When I was in law school, I bought a large dog bed (not cedar filled) and used it in the bathroom so I could sleep right next to the toilet between throw-ups. I think that was the best thing I’ve ever purchased. It’s hard to caretake yourself when you can’t see, can barely stand up, and can’t speak.
JLaw
I completely empathize with the fear of getting a migraine during the bar – I’m studying for it right now too and have been praying for weeks that I’m spared then.
Good luck with the Topamax. I’ve been on it twice. First time it worked wonders for me. After a while I went off it because I didn’t need it anymore. Then when I started getting them again and went back on it (at a lower dose no less) I got hit with every side effect in the book and eventually got off it because I couldn’t think straight while on it. I remember a particularly fun time when I was working at a restaurant and was staring at a handful of change for a solid minute trying to figure out how to count it. Migraines are the best.
em
I just stopped the Topamax a few months ago after being on it for 5 years. Horrible memory, horrible concentration, and oh my gosh, the stuttering. I was always so embarrassed searching for words and stuttering. When I told my psych I wanted to stop taking it and described all the side effects, he said that he and some of his colleagues call it the supermodel drug, because it makes you skinny and stupid :-) I’ve gained a little weight, but just a few pounds, and I’m naturally skinny anyway thanks to my mom’s genes so it hasn’t been a huge deal.
sflawgirl
I have suffered from migraines for YEARS. Having just graduated from law school (and currently studying for the bar exam!) I can totally sympathize with everyone’s comments so far about the complete destruction migraines can do to your life… I have far too many stories to count.
I have been on Topomax (like many others have), and found it worked the best of all the meds, but it does have some bizarre side effects, so do be careful.
After trying just about EVERYTHING (and I mean EVERYTHING), my doctor finally suggested (like someone else’s did) that we try food triggers. Apparently they are far more common than people believe. Sure enough, I have two primary food triggers: gluten and lactose. Gluten is the protein found in wheat, barley, rye, etc. Lactose is the milk sugar. I have been gluten and lactose free for 4 months now, and completely migraine free. No kidding. I also have cut down on many other bizarre symptoms I was having (fatigue, etc) and was able to come completely off my Topomax.
I am not saying the food elimination works for everyone, but when you are at your wit’s end… it might be worth a shot. And they are finding craaaazy things with gluten & various diseases. Check it out online… and good luck, fellow migraine sufferers!
Kimbo
Yeast is my food trigger! For a while, I thought I was just getting really bad hangovers when I drank, then I realized that the yeast in the beer I was drinking was triggering migraines. Figuring that out made a world of difference.
AnneB
I suffered from migraines for years. I had all of the classic symptoms – aura, nausea, numbness, pain on one side of my head, narrowing of vision. I didn’t get migraines all the time, but when I did I was incapacitated. I found the book “Heal Your Headache – The 1-2-3 Program for Taking Charge of Your Pain” by David Bucholz MD, a Johns Hopkins Neurologist, to be life changing. He believes diet is the cause of most migraines. I didn’t follow his program to the letter, but by just cutting way back on caffeine and MSG I almost totally eliminated my headaches.
Anonymous
I’ve also been on Topamax for a few years. I would love to stop taking it because it has been horrible for my memory, concentration, and thirst (strange–I don’t think dehydration is a common side effect, but I am now chained to a water bottle. I can’t even sleep through the night without frequent gulps and the resulting bathroom trips).
I tried to go off it last year and very quickly gained 10-15 pounds (weight loss is another side effect) and (since we are talking about migraines here) had more frequent migraines. I had just moved and was starting 2L at a new school (transfer) so that stress wasn’t really what I needed, so I went back on it. Now I’m just counting down until after the bar when I will try again and hopefully use that short downtime before starting work to make sure I exercise and eat healthy that I can manage any weight gain.
Based on my experience, I wouldn’t recommend it to anyone. I’ve never smoked, but sometimes it sounds pretty similar.
As to your chiro question–I used to see one, and it didn’t really help my migraines. It helped a lot with general back and neck tightness, but that really only eliminated a discomfort. It didn’t solve the migraines. Everyone is different though, so depending on your insurance it may be worth trying. Good luck with whatever you decide to try.
Anonymous
Clarification since I worded it a little funny–weight loss is a side effect, so when I went off it I experience a “rebound” weight gain.
Kimbo
I am late to the game, but my direct boss knows that I get migraines from time-to-time so she knows that there will be days when I am sick and unable to even work from home. Everyone else at my work just knows I’m not there that day. Luckily, my boss is very understanding and the culture at my work place is one wherein, if you get your work day, no one really cares all that much if you take sick days. It might not be like this at other places, though.
Anonymous
I never mention the word “migraine” without mentioning that mine come with an aura and significant vision loss. People who think “it’s just a headache” can’t really argue with “literally cannot read words on a page” and “unsafe to drive.”
Claire
Do you know what’s causing your migraines? I started having some yucky neck and upper back pain this year that also caused migraines. If you have a lot of tension in your neck or ever have any other problems with your neck that can cause migraines or severe headaches because the muscles in your neck connect to the base of your skull. I started doing a physical therapy program for my neck and it’s made a world of difference. And best of all, as long as you do the exercises they give you on a regular basis after you finish the program, the results will be permanent! I don’t know if this addresses your situation, but if it does, I would really recommend it.
MelD
I went to a migraine clinic two years ago that focused on a holistic approach to treating migraines. Part of my treatment plan includes weekly upper back/neck relaxation. I haven’t tried a chiropractor yet, but that is a treatment that my clinic recommended as an option if the more basic methods like a hot pad (which is what I do) or massage don’t work. I also try to do yoga at least 3 times a week.
That said, it really depends on what type of migraines you are getting. If all of your migraines are menstrual migraines, no amount of chiropractic treatment is going to help. If you sit at your computer most of the day and have a tense neck and shoulders, chances are a chiropractor would be beneficial.
Amy
I have used chiropractors for immediate musculoskeletal problems with my shoulder and back, and it did work. I would much rather go to a chiropractor and get adjusted when my back goes out than do what my general practitioner advises, which is load up on painkillers and stay in bed for two weeks. As far as the ones who say they can treat other systematic health problems with chiropractic, I’m skeptical. No one I know has had long-term success.
I get migraines too. I have had them since my early teens and have been on just about anything you can think of to treat them – Midrin, Fioricet, Imitrex, Phenergan, etc. Back in college I was having episodes a couple of times a week, and they even tried me on things like Ativan, amitryptaline, Wellbutrin and other anti-anxiety/antidepressant types of drugs. None of it worked.
I have managed to get better control of mine by doing the following:
– Scrupulously avoiding triggers, and working harder to figure out what triggers me. I went to a Doctor of Osteopathy/naturopath a few years ago who had me do an incredibly restrictive elimination diet where I basically ate almost nothing for two days and then slowly reintroduced food groups one at a time. I figured out that Nutrasweet (aspartame) triggers my migraines, big-time. At the time I was drinking Diet Coke and eating yogurt with Nutrasweet in it daily. Once I cut out asparatame, I cut my migraine frequency by probably 50 percent. Other things that trigger me that I didn’t expect: blueberries (really), certain types of cheese, beer, sourdough bread, and papayas. Now I do a better job of just avoiding these things entirely.
– I drink caffeine every day. I don’t get those “caffeine withdrawl” headaches people talk about, I get a full-on, full-aura, nauseating migraine that can last for three days. A reasonable amount of caffeine at the same time each day seems to help a lot.
– I did some acupuncture a few years ago for another reason and it had a side effect of REALLY controlling my migraines when I was doing it. I haven’t been to acupuncture in a few years and the effect didn’t last, but if I got to a point where I was really having trouble, I would go back again.
– The biggest thing for me has been controlling my hormones, because my migraines are hormonally-triggered. The Pill did NOT help, in fact, I was on a couple of brands that made them way worse. I had a Mirena IUD put in after my son was born and then quit having periods about six months later – that really cut down on the migraine frequency. (I have heard some women are using those continuous birth control pills to do this same thing, cut down on the number of periods they have to control their migraines.) I am ridiculously progesterone-deficient and so I also use progesterone cream a few times a month and that has also helped a lot. If yours are hormonally-triggered (watch and see if they occur more around the middle or end of your cycle – mine happened at both points) you might get a hormone panel done by a gyno and then take it to a migraine specialist and see if they have advice for you. I will say I never saw a specialist who wanted to help me figure out how to control the migraines without drugs, just put me on different meds to treat them, but they might not all be like that.
I really understand your struggle and I understand how frustrating it can be to try to figure out how to deal with migraines. At one point I nearly flunked out of college because of mine, and then later almost lost a job over them. I only have a serious one about once every 3-4 months now, which I never thought would happen. But it’s taken a lot of years of trial and error to get to this point. I really hope you figure out something that works for you. By all means, try the chiropractic if you think it will help, and you can afford it.
Shayna
This is great advice —
I’m a migraineur as well… I HAVE to have caffeine in the morning – and if I feel a migraine coming… and sometimes there’s those few minutes when you know one is coming (at least I do, and I know a few others who do), and I take Excedrin Migraine and drink Diet Coke I can head it off… otherwise it’s Imitrex… which is so dehydrating that it leaves me feeling hungover and eating fried food and drinking Diet Coke afterwards.
I don’t have any food triggers (that I’ve identified) but I do migraine when I’m stressed (like everyone else), or when the atmospheric pressure dips or rises suddenly (which sounds freaky, but is the case for many migraineurs). My mother is a migraineur as well — she found out her triggers were walnuts and red wine… after years worth of cutting food in and out of her diet to identify it (she migraines constantly even without those triggers, but less than back in the early 90s before she figured it out).
Let us know if the chiropractor works — I’ve only done the neurologist (aka where the Imitrex script comes from)
Kit
Thanks for the responses so far. My migraines are not just bad headaches; they are migraines with aura (visual disturbances, tingling sensations, affected speech). I only get them about once every three months, which makes it very difficult to figure out any triggers. If I take over-the-counter pain killers as soon as the first symptom begins, I can often stop the migraine before the actual attack (headache) happens. I am lucky in this respect; however, I still feel as if I am hungover for a day or two after it happens.
My doctor’s attitude is: If you can control them with OTC meds, I don’t need to write you a prescription. That’s great, but I don’t want a prescription and I don’t want to only treat the symptoms; I want to prevent the migraine from starting in the first place.
Thus far, I believe my triggers are major shifts in the weather, lack of sleep, skipping meals and extreme stress. I don’t believe it is hormonal and I don’t have any back/neck issues. I’ve read books on migraines and how to decipher triggers, but nothing has really helped.
Amy
“My doctor’s attitude is: If you can control them with OTC meds, I don’t need to write you a prescription.”
That’s BS and you need a better doctor. If you are having aura and other sensation along with the pain, the problem is neurological and it does warrant treatment with better tools than what you’ve been given. It enrages me that there are doctors out there who are still so insensitive about migraine, when it’s been well-documented at this point that it is NOT “all in your head” and it IS a significant quality-of-life issue. When mine were out of control, I contemplated suicide. Many times. Getting mine under control has improved my life a hundred and fifty percent. If you’re having one every three months or so, there is absolutely no reason you can’t get a prescription for Imitrex or another drug that will treat ALL the migraine symptoms, not just the pain. And the other symptoms are serious – a coworker of mine drove off the road a few years ago when he had an aura come on suddenly, thankfully no one was hurt – and any decent doctor realizes that. Try to see a neurologist or at least someone who deals with chronic pain conditions. My experience is general practitioners, and even gynecologists, generally do not get it.
I also feel duty-bound to mention that if you haven’t had a head CT/MRI to check for brain problems, you definitely should. That is actually a good reason to see a neurologist – generally they want to rule out tumor or aneurysm first, but once they do so, will do what they can to help you.
Bonviva
I recommend a book called The Migraine Brain by Carolyn Bernstein, M.D., a neurologist who is also a migraine sufferer. Much helpful advice. Acupuncture has also helped me.
anon
I got acupuncture for allergies and sinus infections – that made a big, big difference.
PJB
OP, Amy is right. You have a lousy doctor. See a specialist.
I am also a migraineur. Unfortunately, my trigger seems to be dream-state sleep. I usually get my migraines around 4 or 5 am while sound asleep. I get a piercing pain on the right side of my brain, and then I begin throwing up. It’s hell.
When it happens during the work week, I call my secretary and leave a vm telling her I’ll be in late morning.
Per my request, she doesn’t tell anyone I have a migraine — just that I’ll be in by 10:30 ish. I’ve learned that brother — and sister — lawyers are not sympathetic to this issue. I’ve given up explaining and gone directly to deception.
I take maxalt and/or imitrex after I’ve finished with the vomiting. It does dehydrate and it makes you feel extremely weak all day (or perhaps that is the lurking migraine.)
Chiropractor made it so much worse, I can’t recommend that route. Acupuncture is helpful, but it doesn’t last. And it isn’t available at 4 am.
Good luck to you.
TK1
I agree with anon above, acupuncture works really well. I also used it for allergies and it made a big difference. I haven’t gone in about 5 years so my allergies are slowly creeping back, but still much better than they were before. I’ve also used it for back pain, neck pain and my husband used it for TMJ.
Shayna
PJB – my mom was having the same experience of waking up with migraines — Her solution was to take Excedrin migraine before going to bed. She (somehow) is able to sleep despite the caffeine in the pills, and it has helped reduce those migraines (She also is on an anti-seizure drug – not Topamax which she did for 10 yrs before stopping due to memory issues that it causes, but another)
OP – I would schedule an appointment with a neurologist – that way you can have whatever scans they feel are necessary, and they will prescribe what you need.
Erin
I used to suffer migraines due to whiplash, which I’ve had three times, and the migraines were awful and life-destroying for a while. Chiropractors helped me in the very short term, but the best long-term help I’ve found is yoga. I’ve been doing yoga regularly for 8 years, and when I have neck pain and headaches I can make it go away with yoga, but more importantly it’s kept my body fit and my spine aligned enough that I rarely have pain. I haven’t had a migraine since 2007. Obviously YMMV, especially if your migraines aren’t injury-related, but it’s worth a try – a lot cheaper than chiropractors, and once you learn what you’re doing you can do it at home.
m
I also get terrible migraines (aura, numbness, nausea, etc). I have found that treximet has really helped, fwiw.
I have a question for those of you who suffer from migraines who are on birth control. I have heard conflicting advice from my doctors about migraines, but I do get a bit worried whenever they tell me that migraines + birth control = higher risk of stroke. Has anyone else heard this from their doctors? If so, what are your alternative methods of birth control? I’m getting married in a few months and we want to wait a few more years before having kids, so I’d like some form of birth control.
MelD
From what I’ve heard, the risk is the greatest for women who have migraine with aura. For everyone else, the risk is fairly minimal and I think you can safely stay on traditional birth control pills. My GP has a daughter who gets severe migraines with aura and the symptoms got scarier/worse no matter what BCP she tried. Her thoughts were that you’d probably get a clear indication fairly soon if BCPs were not going to work for you. I was scared to try hormonal BCPs for that reason, but I haven’t had any migraines with aura since starting.
That said, if you can’t do the combined BCP (the estrogen is typically the problem), you can do the minipill instead. Once you have kids, doctors typically recommend the Mirena.
Anonymous
FYI–IUDs are no longer restricted to women who have had children. I’ve never been pregnant and I’ve got one. So does my never-been-pregnant sister.
Anonymous
I get migraines w/ auras and several doctors have indicated that I should not take a pill that contains estrogen. One doctor thought I could try the lowest-estrogen-dose pill out there, and I started having weekly migraines the first month I tried it.
Alternative BC methods I’ve used include Norplant and the mini-pill (progestin only). Those were fine, but I’ve had an IUD for three years now and love it. Apparently IUDs used to be restricted to women who had given birth at least once, but they are now approved for women who have never given birth. I cannot describe how liberating it is to not have to remember to take a pill every day. If you’re planning on waiting a few years to have kids, I would strongly recommend investigating an IUD. There’s one that includes a hormone (Mirena) and one that doesn’t.
I’m sure you know this, but an IUD does not protect against STDs, so that is something to keep in mind depending on your situation.
Shortening a heel??
Question for you gals — I just bought a pair of shoes with a 4″ heel that are very nice looking and conservative in every other way (closed toe, black leather mary jane), but the heel is a little outside my comfort range (I’m pretty tall already). A Zappos reviewer for the same shoe mentioned that she got the heel professionally shortened at a shoe repair shop. Does anyone here have any experience with this? Does it throw off the balance of the shoe? The shoe has a bit of a platform, so the sole isn’t particularly flexible. I have a shoe repair shop I trust, but I’m worried about taking the plunge on trying to get them shortened — anyone have any input?
Thanks in advance!
CFM
I have no experience in this, but theoretically I’m having trouble picturing how it would work, especially if the shoe has a platform.
Ex-3L Sarah
Your shoe repair shop should be able to tell you if it’s possible to get the heel chopped down. For some shoes, a shorter heel would mess up the entire balance of the shoe. But your cobbler should be able to tell you if it’s feasible or if the sole is too rigid so they’ll end up looking like those horrible shoes that had huge platforms but no heels on the runways lats year.
Delta Sierra
Can’t see this working if the height was taken only from the heel, because now the angle of the footbed is off, unless you have height removed from the forefoot as well. From what cobblers have cost me to do much simpler things, it’d be just as cheap to buy new shoes, unless these are very expensive.
Dani
I am also tall and have looked into this. As a general rule, my cobbler said anything over 1/2″ would be destructive to the shoe. This was on 3″ heels. That said – I decided against it because of the cost, although it may be worth it for the perfect pair.
JMW
I had the heel shortened for the shoes that I wore in my wedding – I lllooovvveeddd them, but they were 3 1/2 inches, and I knew I wouldn’t make it all day and all night in them. The cobbler was only able to take off about 1/2 an inch, and he also added cushions to the footbed. They were incredibly comfortable – I wore them all day and through the entire reception and had no pain and no complaints. This probably worked our more because of the style of the shoe (sandal) than anything else, but you could take it to your cobbler and just ask him if there’s anything he could do … can’t hurt, right?
Shayna
My ears have been pierced most of my life – first set at 2, second at 12, both holes on the lobe (?)… where most people’s earrings are. I like wearing earrings in both sets — a pair of larger hoops and a pair of smaller hoops, or larger earrings in the first set and a pair of studs in the back set — But I’ve noticed that I don’t work with any other women who have more than one set of piercings, so I don’t have a baseline to determine whether it’s ok to wear earrings in both (or if I’m totally overthinking this!)… The earrings I wear are always very conservative, streamlined (nothing very long b/c I’m short, nothing jangling, goofy, etc.).
Shayna
Oy, hit ‘submit’ too soon — I would love the take of some of you in business casual work environments – I work in a fairly conservative corporate accounting environment.
Amanda
I don’t think what you describe would be out of place – or, indeed, even noticed – at either my current job or my last one. For context, I work at a small, pretty liberal strategy consulting firm at the moment, and I worked at a larger, conservative scientific consulting firm previously, both with business casual policies.
Sharon
I’m in a business casual or casual-casual environment, but personally I think the two-earrings-in-one-ear is just a tacky look overall. It strikes me as a lower-middle-class attempt at “decoration.” Show your personal style by great earrings, not by two earrings in one ear.
Cat
“But I’ve noticed that I don’t work with any other women who have more than one set of piercings”
I mean this in a nice way — this probably answers your question. It’s actually against my firm’s dress code to have more than one earring/ear. I’d probably save the second piercing for weekends-only.
Shayna
I don’t work with a lot of women — and for many women the single piercing isn’t b/c they wouldn’t wear two sets, but b/c they don’t want the pain of another piercing (I didn’t remember the first set, but remembering the second, oh yes, no more holes in my body even if I did want to!)
anon
I’m 36 and had a second set done in undergrad. I probably haven’t worn earrings in them since that time. Honestly, I tend to think it looks outdated and a little “white trash” when I see it on anyone these days. (And as someone in the Midwest, I imagine it’s a look that does even worse elsewhere.)
Like all other favorites from that era–the flannels, the chunky shoes…it’s time to step away from the double piercing.
Chicago K
Well, I have 2 piercings in both my ears. One done when I was about 9, and the other begged for at 11.
I don’t wear earrings in the second piercing, and haven’t since High School. It hasn’t closed up (accidentally put my earring into that one just last week) and it’s been about 15 years since I regularly wore earrings in there.
I agree that I don’t see many people wearing more than one now that I am older. But I think if you’ve been doing it and continue to wear something tiny chances are no one is going to mind.
Eva
My business casual firm expressly notes up to one earring per ear in our dress code. That said, I don’t think it would bother me if I saw it, though I will admit that multiple piercings makes me think middle school/early high school just a bit.
anonymous
I’m in CA BigLaw. I also have two holes (second at 17 in a moment of rebellion) and am having an ongoing internal debate about it. I only wear small studs in the second holes, and almost always studs in the first holes as well. The second holes also aren’t spaced the same from the first holes, thanks to the lack of skill from the employee at the mall who did them. (I’ve decided to have a professional body artist pierce my future daughter’s ears to prevent this issue).
I don’t work with any double-pierced ear women either, but then again I don’t work with many women. I’m really not attached to having two holes, but I’m worried that the closed-hole scars will look silly.
AnneCatherine
I have two holes in one ear; did it myself in high school. (Every girl I went to Jr. High with had two holes in each ear . . . ) I never wear an earring in the second hole, anymore, and I can’t imagine anyone that I work with or near even notices the (tiny) second hole that is always empty. And, I worked with a guy who had holes in each ear, but never wore earrings anymore. It took our boss like 5 years to notice the holes. I don’t think they are noticeable, unless they are totally stretched out from huge hoops or something, and even then maybe not. That said, I also think that two small studs in each ear is fine/appropriate. Or two tiny hoops.
Anona
I’m in banking and our EVP/CIO has two piercings per ear…and I think she looks great. To be honest, when I noticed, I actually thought it was pretty cool. ;)
Amy
At one point I had three holes in each ear and a tragus piercing. I let the third set of holes close about two years after I got them (while I was still in college). The second set is still open but I never wear earrings in them. I also don’t put anything in my tragus piercing unless it’s a weekend/vacation. I just don’t see professional women in my area with more than one set of earrings in. A few years ago I worked in a big corporate job and one of my coworkers had probably 7 holes in each ear, and wore earrings in them – people would comment on it and she eventually stopped. I do think it is distracting, in an otherwise well-dressed, professional person, to see multiple earrings. It’s just not the statement I want to make, but it’s ultimately up to you.
anon23
I had a gauge in my upper cartilage that has now shrunk to the size of a regular piercing. I only rarely wear anything in it on the weekends and never to work.
K
I have one hole in each earlobe and a tragus piercing, in which I always wear a tiny captive bead ring. I’m lazy about putting on earrings in the morning so often, the tragus piercing is my only earring. Most people have never indicated that they’ve noticed, and the ones who have said something have told me that the little ring looks cute, so I don’t think it’s hurt me in the slightest. (I’m in a government law office – maybe Biglaw would be different.)
JessC
I’ve seen a number of professional women in my area where more than one piercing in each year. Mind you, when I say “more than one” I’m talking two sets, rarely three and most wear conservative earrings in the extra set(s).
Personally, I have two sets in each ear and always wear earrings in both. The second set is usually kept to a pearl or CZ stud smaller than whatever is in the first set.
Kit
I don’t think there is necessarily anything wrong with having double piercings if you wear conservative earrings. However, I can see where older generations (I’m 28) might find this unprofessional because it is often associated with rebellious youth.
Erin
My business casual firm also has a one earring per ear policy, and on women only. But YMMV. I’d probably err on the side of not wearing a second pair if you’re not sure.
Southern Big Law
I work at a large firm in a very conservative southern city. I have two holes in one ear and one in the other. I wear midsize pearl studs in the bottom hole on both and a tiny diamond stud in the top hole on my right ear. The only people who have noticed are other women who are secretly sporting a second (or sometimes more!) hole
Shayna
I was so tempted to get just one second hole… mostly b/c I always have extra single studs…but I wasn’t going to go through that pain again if I didn’t like it, so it seemed more prudent to ‘bite the bullet’ and do both simultaneously ;-)
Biglaw Refugee
I think it may depend a bit on your style as well as on your environment. If you have a generally “edgy” style, then the earring in the second ear may come off as hip and cool, as with the CIO mentioned by one of the other posters.
If you generally dress conservatively and are trying to blend in and/or look “classy,” reliable and/or normal enough to get increasing levels of responsibility (which is probably smart in the first 5+ years of your career), then the second earring may clash with the rest of your outfit and look like you haven’t fully outgrown your rebellious teenager phase.
I’m thinking that rocking the second earring may be something you want to wait to do until you’re a little more established and have figured out who you are in the professional setting, and/or do only when you’re in the office on weekends to show your hip relaxed side.
Kaye
This is just my opinion, but: I think that 2 sets of hoops looks really trashy, no matter how small the second set is. I think you could wear some really small stud earrings in the second set – that way you don’t get that “rebellious youth” look quite as much.
Shayna
Thank you all! Today – fyi- I am rocking two pairs of stud earrings (small and smaller) — :-)
Emily
Maybe look around at the guys in your office – do any of them wear earrings to work? We have several guys with pierced ears at my (relatively conservative) law office, and they NEVER wear earrings to work. This was a big indication to me that I should take out the tragus piercing.
D
Can SOMEBODY please explain to me the appeal of Spanx and related products?? I am so mystified by all the comments, indicating that so many women wear them.
Personally I can’t imagine the discomfort of wearing another layer, let alone a tight layer, under my clothes every day. Also, and I don’t mean to offend anybody here, but insofar as you are wearing it to appeal to men…what happens on the day/night you don’t feel like wearing it and/or when the Spanx have to come off in the presence of someone else?!?!?
I just can’t help viewing these garments in the same vein as knockoff bags and brassieres that guarantee to add two cup sizes or your money back lol. (i.e., you don’t have something, but are going around pretending that you do)
zee
I think you could insert “make-up” or “bras” into your comment instead of “spanx” (you don’t look the same when you take them off) – it comes down to the same thing. Many women wear them to feel pretty/put their best foot forward/add confidence/be comfortable/you name it. Are regular bras and make-up the same vein as knockoff bags?
D
To me, bras serve a non-superficial purpose. Namely, keeping my upper half from moving around in an inappropriate way when I am walking down the street, and providing support in general.
As for make-up, (1) it is obvious when one is wearing make-up, while Spanx is hidden, and (2) I don’t notice that I am wearing lipstick after I put it on…compare to the aforementioned discomfort and general feeling of being “encased” like a sausage with Spanx.
CJ in CA
I wear spanx for a non-superficial purpose (like a bra) too. I’m not sure about everyone here, but when I wear them here’s why:
1) They keep my thighs from rubbing together in a skirt (AKA- Chub rub)
2) They put a layer of fabric between my unlined pants and my legs which leads to less dry cleaning and less wrinkling.
3) When size A is just a little too tight (fits on but shows panty lines or lumps and bumps) and size B is clearly too loose, I can wear spanx to make the size A appropriate. I wouldn’t buy a suit like this, but I got an amazing deal on some pants yesterday that will be great with Spanx.
But, I wear them a size bigger than they say usually, so I don’t feel encased, it’s just like wearing spandex bike shorts or yoga pants- comfortable, free to move and breath etc.
But, I would not wear them on a 3rd date, if you know what I mean.
j29
FWIW, I asked a gentleman friend of mine about this kind of stuff a while back ( i wear a pushup sometimes) and he said by now most guys know to expect that kind of thing.
Delta Sierra
If they feel sausage-y, they’re too small. Trick with Spanx is to get them small enough to smooth things out, and big enough not to feel strangle-y and make bulges where they end.
ES
agree!
Eva
I don’t wear Spanx but I do regularly wear control top pantyhose. I find the process of putting them on somewhat tedious, but once they’re on they don’t bother me at all and they make my skirts sit in a much more flattering manner, in my opinion. My boyfriend knows I wear them and what I look like without them, knows my bra adds about half a centimeter in padding (and – TMI – makes my otherwise sort of pointy boobs look much more traditionally rounded), and knows my cheeks aren’t in fact the slightly rosy shade they appear to be when I head off to work each morning. Not a big deal.
jlf
This is kind of off-topic, but playboy recently posted a kind of retrospective on the types of breasts that have appeared in their magazine as times have changed. You can find it if you google “playboy evolution of the boob.” OBVIOUSLY this is NSFW, but I found it pretty interesting and actually kind of comforting. Just because your boobs aren’t the shape du jour doesn’t mean they are weird or non-traditional.
Ex-3L Sarah
Personally, I would wear Spanx/control tops when I need to look as put-together/professional as possible for as long as possible (i.e. not when my sole goal is appealing to men). I’ve noticed that my body changes throughout the day, and my pants fitting fine in the morning may not look so fine in the afternoon. Spanx makes them look the same all day. And I think it smoothes everything out – so no errant panty-lines, my shirt doesn’t even hint at showing my rolls, etc.
And if I were to take off my control tops or Spanx in front of someone, they should be so lucky! :-D
A man
If your body needs Spanx, he’s not lucky.
Unless he’s a loser of course.
Amy
I’m so sorry, I think you ended up here by mistake. If you’re looking for Above the Law, that’s at a completely different URL. This blog is for women who have useful advice for each other. I apologize for any confusion; I’m sure you’d like to move along now. Thanks.
Delta Sierra
Well done, Amy!
Samantha
Seconded. I love Amy’s polite response!
Ex-3L Sarah
Man, if you know what Spanx is, then you have obviously been in the situation described above, and are therefore, a loser.
MK
You’re a man that just read 160 comments on a women’s fashion blog. . .
Experienced
On a Friday night. Poor thing!
Delta Sierra
Hard to tell if he’s more loser-y, or more perv-y.
FinanceMe
Speaking of “losers…”
EK
I’d chalk it up to personal differences. I have basically the same reaction to most makeup– it itches, it makes me break out, it takes too much time, etc.– but spanx-type clothing has never bothered me. As an always-cold person, I couldn’t care less about another layer. Bring it on! As long as the garment isn’t so tight it leaves marks afterwards, I don’t really notice. (And if my bra or spanx is so tight it leaves marks, I know I’ve picked the wrong size.)
I don’t wear shaping undergarments every day. I use them primarily with evening/date-night clothing designed to impress. Frankly, if I thought my work appropriate clothes *required* spanx, I’d pick something else or go up a size. But I don’t really think of the garments as deceptive. The difference isn’t huge, after all– spanx won’t turn a size 14 into a 2, and push-up bras won’t turn an A cup into a DD. As zee points out, the point of most fashion-related things is to make you look better than you otherwise would. My everyday bra (I have several of the same size and style) makes my clothes fit better and my bust look, ahem, more awesome than it is in the cold light of day. So what? I spend almost all my time with my clothes ON. If I can look better or feel more confident just by choosing my undergarments carefully, I’ll take it.
KZ
I only have one pair that I bought specifically because I had gained juuust enough weight that my interview suit didn’t quite fit right, and I didn’t want to buy a new suit in case I then lost the weight. I wouldn’t wear them every day, but Spanx does wonders eliminating panty lines, so I wear them if i’m currently in between sizes.
Shayna
I’ve never worn them… I have a major dislike of tight clothing (though I have heard the rave reviews… but I just can’t go there personally) but I imagine that you either strip them off in the privacy of your bathroom, or, if you’re married or in a long term relationship, your husband already knows what your body looks like in and out of the spanx.
Insofar as they squeeze your body that extra bit to fit into/smooth/etc. I can see where they may seem like they belong with those facial creams sold on late night television that promise to eliminate wrinkles and cellulite…
Amy
“Also, and I don’t mean to offend anybody here, but insofar as you are wearing it to appeal to men…what happens on the day/night you don’t feel like wearing it and/or when the Spanx have to come off in the presence of someone else?!?!?”
I have to say, this did remind me of that scene in (I think) the second Bridget Jones book where Magda takes Bridget shopping for shapewear and when Bridget says she doesn’t want to wear it because what if a man decides to run his hand up her leg, Magda says “Do you have any control over your sexual destiny at all??” :)
I’ve been married so long it’s not an issue for me, but my friends who have found themselves in a situation where they need to remove their Spanx in the presence of, uh, others, say they usually find a way to visit the bathroom before things progress too far, and remove their shapewear before it can be discovered. :)
Claire
Or in the first Bridget Jones movie when she has to choose between the control panties that will make her look good in her dress for the book release or the thong that would be excellent in case she manages to score with Hugh Grant. Love that movie.
Shayna
Love that movie too — and I do think of it whenever I get dressed for a date… ;-)
2L
Just don’t do what a friend did: anticipating clothes removal, she took off her spanx in the guy’s bathroom. Having forgotten to bring in her purse, she shoved them under his sink where she could grab them later and stuff them into her purse. She left having totally forgotten about them! I went to a small cocktail hour at this guy’s house a week later and she asked me to check under the sink for them and they were GONE. Who knows what this poor guy thought they were.
Experienced
That is hilarious!
PJB
Who wears spanx for men? It’s for work. Flat tummy looks better in a skirt, it’s not high math. (Or perhaps you haven’t had a child yet.)
And, my husband is fully aware of every centimeter of my body. He gets the Victoria Secret stuff.
Amy
I agree – the idea of wearing Spanx “for men” – in my case, my husband – did kind of make me chuckle. I think the jig was up for me (and my body) once my husband accompanied me through childbirth and the immediate postnatal period, which is basically a weeklong festival of things guys usually don’t want to see or know about. We still have what I consider to be a “passionate” marriage but the smoke-and-mirrors phase is very much in the past. And that’s fine – because there are deeper things in life than maintaining alluring illusions, and having a baby together is one of them.
Some general, off-topic advice: I would really caution against expecting much in the way of loyalty or commitment out of any guy who is mainly attracted to “hotness” and makes that clear from the outset. When men talk about “hotness” what they’re really talking about is excitement, youth and novelty – things that are in short supply after ten or so years of marriage, regardless of how well you keep yourself up.
Erin
Because they make my butt look nice and my clothes hang better. Why do you care? Just don’t wear them.
AnneCatherine
Ha ha yes, I think the question was sort of odd. Like, if we give convincing enough reasons as to their “appeal,” will you change your mind, D, and start “going around pretending”? The question just. . . seems a little score-keepy (“I ACTUALLY have a flat stomach, who are these b*tches who are going around pretending!?!?!?!?”) or, like it was written by “A Man” of 8: 50 p.m. fame (“So this stupid b*tch was wearing Spanx and I don’t need no fatties. I’m not a loser. She was going around pretending!!!!!!”)
Delta Sierra
AC – yes, very disingenuous question.
TK1
I never wear Spanx-type products thinking of impressing men! More like preventing judgmental comments from other women because my clothes don’t fit right or I look a little “lumpy.”
IMO men don’t care if you don’t have a perfect body when you are naked and generally don’t get why you would wear Spanx because they don’t think you need it. They are just happy that you are naked! If a man is being that judgmental about the 5 lb (maybe) difference Spanx is making he is either a jerk or immature.
Taylor
They slim down fat rolls on the back, control muffin top, hold the belly in, and keep flabby butt from jiggling. What is not to like? There is a 50-year-old woman in my office who lost weight and exercise regularly. She is about a size six and she could use a slimmer under most of the knit/jersey dresses she wears.
Now that I have started wearing them, I would feel gross without. I gained alot of weight after quitting smoking.
Delta Sierra
Spanx seems to have a new line. This looks like a nice cami, but is a bit pricey.
http://www.spanx.com/product/index.jsp?cp=3481210.3481211&productId=3508604
Also, I’ve read somewhere recently that manSpanx are a big new thing, selling well. This is the Spanx ‘compression’ undershirt
http://www.spanx.com/category/index.jsp?categoryId=4016110&cp=3955558
Sharon
Some of us have had twins. That’s the appeal. Are you a childless twenty-something? The body changes as you age and as you have kids.
RR
AMEN!!! Twins = lifetime love of Spanx.
ES
For those who actually like spanx – Ann Taylor has a bunch of “sassybax”, or fake spanx, for sale for $3.88. At least in store – don’t see them online. They’ll probably fall apart much faster than spanx, but for $3.88, who cares?
Amy
Does anyone have any advice about minimizing or covering large scars?
A few weeks ago I accidentally hit the handle of a pan of boiling water while I was cooking, and it overturned onto my leg – I got second/third-degree burns all over my upper thigh. I went to urgent care, and the doctor gave me bandages and ointment and basically said, we’ll have to wait and see what happens because these aren’t serious enough to warrant a skin graft. Well, the burns have mostly healed but I have some huge, ugly scars all over my upper thigh now – definitely not something that will show in regular clothes (my barely-butt-clearing miniskirt days are long in the past) but it will be an issue with swimsuits. The doc gave me strict advice to keep the scars out of the sun for at least a year to avoid making them darker or burning the skin again, so I’ve been wearing bike shorts over my swimsuit bottoms to the pool lately. But thinking about down the road, if the scars don’t fade somewhat I will be very self-conscious about them out in public, when I take my son to the pool. Does anyone have any advice? I have heard about Mederma but don’t know anyone who has used it. I have been putting Vitamin E oil on the scar but will get the Mederma if it really works.
Lola
I’d check with a dermatologist in a few months. For smaller scars, there’s a clear gel at Target (purple tube) that works pretty well.
CJ in CA
I’m glad you weren’t more seriously hurt.
I had a friend who had an 8 inch long scar on her lower leg from where a broken bone slashed her skin. It was big, and noticeable. She just wore it, not attempt to hide it. And, if someone asked, told the story. Especially on your thigh you might just try to “get over it.” (Not in a mean way). Everyone’s body bears the marks of their life, and it doesn’t sound like this is something that will be causing children to scream and run away. No one is as aware of it as you.
BUT, if you do want to cover it all the time, there are lots of skirted swimsuits out there (http://www.llbean.com/llb/shop/63874?from=SR&feat=sr) and also “board shorts”/ swim shorts (http://www.llbean.com/llb/shop/58783?from=SR&feat=sr) . And, it’s not weird at all to pull on a sarong or skirt, or drawstring pants immediately after getting out of the water so those are options too.
Shayna
If you didn’t already see a dermatologist (not sure if your advice came from an ER doc or a derm), I would see a dermatologist now to see if there’s anything you can do as it heals…
anon
It hasn’t been very long so it may largely go away. But let me also say this: I have scars on my upper thighs from surgery I had as a child. They are definitely noticeable. But I’ve had them so long that *I* don’t notice them any more. Now when strangers see me at the pool, of course they notice and look and probably wonder. But it truly doesn’t bother me – it’s just what I look like. I know it’s hard to imagine getting to that place, but I’m pretty sure you will.
K3L
Mederma is great! I had a HUGE scar on my forehead and now it’s almost nothing, at most a skin-toned Nike swoosh. Most of my friends don’t know I have it. One of my friends touched my skull (she was at the hospital with us). I used it in probably 1996 (if I remember correctly, it was before it was prescription, or before it was FDA approved, or before it was popular … before something). It works. It won’t make the scar go away completely, but I can barely see or even find mine.
Erin
Mederma is great! I had a HUGE scar on my forehead and now it’s almost nothing, at most a skin-toned Nike swoosh. Most of my friends don’t know I have it. One of my friends touched my skull (she was at the hospital with us). I used it in probably 1996 (if I remember correctly, it was before it was prescription, or before it was FDA approved, or before it was popular … before something). It works. It won’t make the scar go away completely, but I can barely see or even find mine.
Res Ipsa
When I had 2nd degree burns, I found that the silver creme the doctor probably gave you worked really well. Agree that for this summer, the best thing you can do to avoid long-term scars is not let them see the light of day. and they really do fade over time.
LMo
I don’t know if you have any harder scar tissue forming, but if you do, rub it. I got a very deep cut right above my eye (boyfriend bashed me in the face with a surfboard and we had a very romantic sandy outing to the ER) and had to have a plastic surgeon stitch it back together. She told me Vitamin E and Mederma probably are effective only because you rub them in. The rubbing breaks down any scar tissue that forms. FWIW, that was 6 months ago, I rubbed the crap out of that scar, and you can’t see it anymore. I know it’s not a cut but something to keep in mind.
LMo
Also seconded on keeping it completely out of the sunlight while it is new.
Amy
Thanks for the tips everyone.
I agree that I will probably just get used to it over time and it won’t be a big deal. Part of it is that it was such a dumb accident – I don’t have anything like a car crash or other serious incident to blame it on. The doctor at Urgent Care kind of made me feel like an idiot – maybe that’s part of it. I think I just don’t want to have to explain to people that it was a kitchen accident because it looks so much worse that that – if that makes any sense. Anyway – I think I will get the Mederma for the part of the scar that is kind of tough and bright red. And I will stick with the shorts for the foreseeable future. Thanks for the tips and reassurance :)
Anonymous
there’s no shame that it was a kitchen accident! these things happen and that doctor is a total jerk for making you feel foolish for an ACCIDENT no matter where it took place.
anyway, if you’re really serious about protecting your scars from the sun, you should probably still be using a high-SPF sunblock even with your shorts. fabric, unless specially designed to deflect UVA/UVB rays, doesn’t perfectly protect your skin.
E
Another option besides a dermatologist is a burn surgeon. I’m glad you weren’t so injured that you needed to go to a burn center, but a central mission for burn centers is treating people with burns during and after their acute injury, including scar revision and reconstruction. A plastic surgeon who specializes in burns may be able to give you information as well. I see a certain number of people at our burn center (regional referral center for 5 states) with injuries like yours, so you should no be embarrassed.
Louise
I just want to say, “Ow!” That must have really, really hurt! I’m so sorry that you have to suffer through this pain. Please don’t be embarrassed to explain the accident. Just thinking about boiling water on their thighs will make most people feel extremely sympathetic!
Besides, you can always say that you just have really hot legs :-)
Shayna
That’s how I felt when I had knee surgery … I was in physical therapy w/ a guy who had had the same surgery. His was b/c he was mountain climbing in the Himalayas.
Mine was b/c I tripped, missed four steps, and landed face down on a brick patio… yeah, just a little shameful!
s in Chicago
I used Mederma as well as Vitamin E after having a mole removed on my chest, and it seemed to help (I had been concerend since I had bad scarring after a foot surgery and knew I was prone.) Definitely get at it sooner than later (my derm said new scars are easier to manage). Also, avoid sun exposure, because it can make new scarring worse. You may want to schedule a visit with a derm. She/he may have something that would work better or have additional advice.
houda
Hi Amy; Sorry about your accident.
I have /had some scars on my face -which is dark, so teh scars are dark brown- My best advice is to go to a dermatologist and do peelings. She can tell you how mild/strong the peeling should be.
I booked 5 sessions, the first peeling was very gentle, the second not so much and I expect the third one in few days.
The peeling makes your upper derm layers peel away and new skin shows.
I hope this can help in your case
Spanx Question
Amy, I definitely feel your pain, except I had some nicely simmering oil splash on my hand when I was deep-frying stuff that resulted in some serious blisters (that’s what I get for deep-frying, I suppose). I didn’t think much of the scar but while I was at the dermatologist’s office for acne-related treatment, she saw the scar, rolled her eyes when I explained what happened and she handed me some sample tubes of this foul-industrial-glue scented cream that I was to rub on my scar. It eventually peeled layers of the burn tissue off and now I have a light scar.
Dee
I just need to vent for a second to some people who understand. Its my 1L summer, and I have an amazing job with a Prestigious Organization. I am assigned to my interviewer, so I feel extra pressure to impress.
The first couple of research assignments were super easy and I did well. Then, I had a doozie – I couldn’t find anything and it took me over a week to do anything with it, and I had to ask for help, and the end result wasn’t very good anyway. My supervisor hasn’t had a chance to look at it yet but we talked about it, and I will probably have to work on it again. Just thinking about it makes me embarrassed. I had another short assignment today and I did better on it, but… I still feel like crap. I feel like my research skills suck, and I’m trying my best to do well but have no confidence at all in what I am doing.
Argh!
North Shore
I’m sure you’re doing fine! This isn’t a test, and it’s perfectly ok to ask for help. That’s what librarians are there for, and other summer associates to bounce things off of, and other lawyers for discussions. The short & easy assignments are probably ones the assigning attorney could have done quickly by herself, so you should be happy to be given a more challenging assignment. Sometimes there is no easy answer, and that’s why lawyers continue to have work to do. Good luck and hang in there!
j29
I’m in my 2L summer. I have been where you are. I’m sure your rational brain knows the things below, you just need someone to say it : )
-You are not a failure or a bad person or worthless or incompetent because of struggling with ONE assignment. This is meant to be a learning experience.
– You did well on your other assignments, so they know you are not a total idiot, right? Be glad this one wasn’t your first!!
– What is the absolute worst most catastrophic consequence that could come out of this? And how much will it matter in 1 year, 5 year, etc?
– You may find out you didn’t do as badly as you thought.
– They chose to hire you. In this economy, they doubtless had their pick of many, many, many others but they decided YOU were among the most qualified to do this job, and they did that based on a lot of information (transcript, resume, interview, etc….) and possibly years of experience with hiring summers. Give them some credit for knowing what you are capable of.
– This is super corny but, I got a fortune cookie once that said “Failure is feedback. And feedback is the breakfast of champions.” So even if you get screamed at for f-ing up this memo, remember that and just try to do better on the next one.
Anonymous
awww, don’t feel bad honey…you’ve just described the learning process to a T: you get something hard, you work on it, you’re not happy with your output, you get help, you revise, etc. etc.
and, fwiw, i feel that interns/externs/clerks tend to get a lot of the pesky research questions where there really is no clear answer (yes, sometimes there is no answer) because no one else has the time to devote to the deep research necessary for the job. if there was an easily found answer, whoever assigned the project would have just looked it up herself!
Amy
I’m not in law, but I will say this. I would much, much (a thousand times much) rather have a new employee come to me and say “you know what, I’ve really tried to find something on this and I just can’t, and I think I need some help” than have them do one of the following things:
– Put off doing the assignment and then panic to the point of nervous breakdown at the last minute.
– Try to “fake it” (read also: have too much confidence in their ability to BS; and/or be too vain to ask for help) and deliver a completely unusable work product.
– Go into paralysis, not work on the assignment at all, and then burst into slobbering tears and excuses once the assignment is overdue and they haven’t done anything with it.
Yes, all these things have happened to me as a supervisor. When I have someone come to me and actually ask for help on something, it is like the heavens have opened up and the angels are singing Alleluia. I can give help, that’s no problem. What is a problem is hearing from someone that things are fine, nope, they don’t need help no ma’am no how, and then asking to review their work and watching them completely decompensate into a quivering pile of raw nerves. Which usually happens perilously close to the deadline for me to deliver the work product to MY superiors.
You probably did better on it than you thought and you also showed humility and initiative in asking for help. You are there to learn and from this experience, you will. Take it easy on yourself. You have a long way to go, and you can’t beat yourself up over everything, or you’ll end up completely beaten down. Easier said than done, I know.
AnneCatherine
You won’t be judged on one assignment, but on what you do over the course of the summer. Chances are, the person who gave you the assignment knows it was a toughie. And your research skills–there is no reason for you to jump to the conclusion that they suck. Research is 25- 50% luck, and stumbling upon the right case. But, do you know about calling the Research Attorneys at Westlaw (assuming you are using Westlaw . . . ) if you can’t find what you are looking for? Most importantly, don’t let one event sap you of confidence. When you get the assigment back to work on again, take notes, be receptive, don’t apologize (do acknowledge the need to do more research–but don’t say “I’m sorry, I’m stupid”), and then approach it calmly.
anon
sometimes the answer just is that there isn’t much on the question. that’s always frustrating (even for me, and i’m a long way from 1L). be up front about what you looked for and what you didn’t find there. That may all there is to do.
A
Definitely don’t hesitate to use the librarians or the westlaw/lexis people. The firm I summered at uses Lexis and had research people there once a week. You need to be able to describe your problem to them, but I was told by more than one assigning attorney that their project could wait until Tuesday because you got free and efficient research, and it was a really great way to learn how to put an effective terms and connectors search together.
That said, you are probably fine. I think that summers get really arcane stuff not only because no one else has the time to do it, but because they want to see how you’ll react in that situation. Keep your head up and hit it again if you have to, but it isn’t the first time someone hasn’t found the answer to a research question and it certainly won’t be the last. Sometimes there just isn’t one!
RR
I’m 10 years out of law school and still have research issues where I can’t find the answer. Sometimes, it’s not that easy, and the assigning attorney generally recognizes that. For me, I want to see that the summer is able to identify where they looked, what they searched for, etc, and then I can help work out new avenues.
Amanda
I’m not in law, but I am a librarian. I’ve had executives and experts in their fields with 20+ years of experience come to me and say they can’t find something. Sometimes its because they aren’t looking in the right places or using the right terms, true, but sometimes it’s also because it’s not findable.
I probably speak for the firm’s library staff when I say: ask. No, really, ask, because that’s the job. We’re professional researchers; we have a graduate degree in research methods and information classification. They aren’t paying us the *snort* big bucks to sit in front of our computers and read Corporette. We’re there to answer these questions.
And also catalog and manage the information center/library, but answering these questions is the better part of the job.
1L (Summer) NYC
Thank you librarians! This will be my fourth week at a firm, and I call your counterparts daily. It is incredibly helpful.
Also, if you haven’t already — ask the attorney who gave you the assignment, because they might have suggestions for terms and connectors.
Shayna
Not in law, but have been the intern, and the new girl… and I head up tax research for my major exempt org.
– It’s ok to ask for help as long as you’re asking specific questions, and have devoted effort to doing it yourself first (you don’t want it to look like you’re tying to bamboozle someone else into doing your work).
– The ability to present your findings – good, bad, or incomplete, with confidence, and in an easy to digest format will be respected. Humility is never bad, but don’t put yourself down. Look at your conversation with your supervisor as an opportunity to collaborate on finding a resolution, not a black and white success or failure.
annie
have you tried the online chat service that Lexis has? whenever i got stumped during law school, i used this function. you can have a live chat w/ a lexis rep that can help you out. you can also call westlaw or email westlaw a question. (i’m guessing they have a similar Lexis equivalent for this option). if they don’t find anything, then you know you’ve completed a sufficient search.
R
My friend who preceded me in law school and summer associate positions helpfully pointed out to me that some of the research projects assigned to summer associates are those that the assigning attorney has dreamed up as in, “I wonder if XYZ….” The attorney does not have time and cannot bill hours for these random queries, making the fresh summer associate the perfect candidate for some hair-pulling research. You should not beat yourself up for being unable to find information that simply may not exist!
Every summer associate has been there before, whether they admit it or not. I think your concern alone is proof of your strong work ethic.
I would try not to put too much pressure on yourself (I know easier said than done) to know everything because part of your summer experience should be learning how to complete research projects. I think that most employers understand this and want to help you learn – even if in the moment it feels that you have let them down.
j29
Hey, just thought of something else along the lines of what someone said above about telling them what you looked at ….
If you are using westlaw, you can print out your research trails, which will show what databases you looked in and what search terms you used. MAYBE there’s some arcane term of art you aren’t aware of or something which would have affected your findings, and your supervisor can now tell you about it or tell you how they would have searched differently. You can show it to your supervisor to show him/her your approach and if it isn’t a matter of you not knowing that one arcane term, then s/he will see that, in fact, you found nothing because there is nothing to be found.
But I also agree with the other comment above that clerks/interns/summers/whatever seem to get the arcane questions…at least, I feel I’ve gotten some doozies over the course of my internships!
Glad It's Them
Oh I hate clutches. They’re so difficult to carry and don’t leave your hands free for anything else. Give me a good huge bag that holds the kitchen sink any day of the week :)
MaxiDressNewbie
I know we’ve already had a couple of maxi dress questions on other Weekend Open threads. I am curious what shoes people are wearing with maxi dresses? I just got a black one and am wondering about appropriate shoes – do I need to go with a flat sandal or do they look better with a high wedge or strappy platform? If it helps I am 5’4″ and curvy, so not as tall/thin as I think a lot of people wearing maxi dresses are. Thanks!
EK
I am by no means a maxi dress expert, but from my observations of them in the wild, I’d say they look best when the hem is very close to, but does not touch, the ground. For you or for a particular dress, that might mean a bit of a heel. As long as the shoe is open/somewhat strappy, I don’t think the rest matters.
mille
I’ve been obsessed with flat gladiator sandals so far this summer. After years of hating them, I have now fallen in love. I think they work well with maxi-dresses. I also like a wedge espadrille.
Shayna
I don’t wear them — they tend to make me look sort of dumpy, but during the day I’ve seen them with flip flops or other casual flats, fancier flats at night.
Kimbo
It took me a while to find a maxi dress short enough for me. (I’m 5’3″.) I finally found three this year and I was thrilled! I wear two with flat gladiator-type sandals and one with gladiator-type heels. I think they can look good with the right espadrilles, too. For me, the decision on whether to wear them with heels or flats really came down tot he length. As EK said, the dress should come down to the ground, but not touch the ground.
jcb
I just got my Boden maxi dress and wore it this weekend. (a) love it, such good quality and fit, nice mix of cute straps and not too much exposure. (b) I wore it with flat sandals, figured that the dress would just look shorter with a heel, and the heels would only serve to be less comfortable than flats – it’s not like anyone could see how they flatter the leg. Agreed that you could probably go with either so long as the dress doesn’t look too short.
recent grad
I have an interview question for the Corporette ladies. And it has nothing to do with pantyhose! (I know that’s what you were all thinking…)
I have an interview coming up with the prosecutor’s office in County “A”. It’s in the same county that my law school is in and where I participated in a clinic program last fall. Learned alot and love the office.
But here’s my dilemma – Most of the people I did the clinic with submitted resumes for jobs with that office very shortly after the end of our clinic. I, however, didn’t. The reason being two-fold – (1) though this office had a history of giving offers to clinic students before graduation, that practice seemed to be temporarily suspended due to the economy being in the crapper and (2) I really want to work in the prosecutor’s office in County “B” where they don’t do interviews or offers until after you have a license.
I’ve thought long and hard about this issue and my preference for County B or over County A isn’t due to liking one office more over the other. They’re different, but I like them both (I spent a summer volunteering with County B’s prosecutor’s office). I really just prefer County B’s office because of location – it’s slightly more big city-ish and also close to where I grew up and where my family and long-time BF still live. (For the record, Counties A and B are near each other and the offices are about an hourish apart)
My concern is that when I interview with County A that they’re going to notice I didn’t immediately submit my application and get the impression that I’m not super interested in working in their office. I really am interested. I like their office, but I just have this locational preference County B.
Any thoughts on how to deal with this issue? I don’t want to come off as being uninterested, but I don’t want to be hishonest either. Or am I completely overthinking this and this isn’t likely to come up? (studying for the bar exam is making me more neurotic than I already was)
Thanks ladies!!
Erin
I wouldn’t bring it up unless they bring it up, which seems highly unlikely. If they do bring it up, I would just gloss over it – say you were very busy with schoolwork and focused on finishing up your work at the clinic, and have just begun applying for jobs, or something like that. Don’t bring up county B. But really, I don’t think they’ll ask.
Shayna
Agree
mille
I think you are over-thinking it. Maybe all those people that applied early really irritated the people in the office by doing so. Also, since you already know people in the office, they will already know about the quality of your work and your enthusiasm for the job.
Don’t feel guilty about preferring one office over another. In the state I live and work in, most people start out in the smaller counties and work their way north, so it’s expected and people don’t worry about it. Right now, with this economy, take what you can get and think about switching to County B after getting experience in County B.
Lola
They’re interviewing you, and not the other students who all submitted their resumes all at once. They want *you*. Quit worrying about why they might pick someone else – they want you. Go in there and remind them why that is.
If you end up declining an offer because you get one from County B, then more power to you. But there’s no downside to ace-ing this interview and using County A as a backup plan. (Don’t tell them that, of course.)
Rock on, girl. You’re doing great.
MelD
You are overthinking it. County A is hiring now and is interested enough to want to interview you. If they thought you were somehow more interested in County B based on your time in the clinic, they would have chosen to interview your classmates instead. The reality is that County A is hiring now, and the best case scenario for County B is that they might offer you an interview in several months after you pass the bar. I know in my area many attorneys come from nearby counties (in a different circuit) to work at the local prosecutor’s office. Others really wanted to work at the prosecutor’s office but ended up at the PD because that was hiring at the time they were looking.
Dani
Quick note on the freezing air conditioning problem that came up in comments a few days ago — Our maintenance guy fixed this very problem for me a couple weeks ago, so I’ll share. He simply opened the ceiling tile near the vent above my desk and adjusted some dampers on the vent. This closed off some of the vent and my office is now several degrees warmer than the surrounding spaces. Not sure if this is common to all systems, but it absolutely rescued me from frostbite. Worth asking if you can have the same done.
CJ in CA
Hurray!
I once worked in an office where we “renovated” the air conditioning with cardboard. Sometimes it’s not the temperature but the airflow pattern blowing right on you.
Kaye
Tissues and tape are your friends. Really :) I’ve adjusted many an air conditioning system this way :)
Just need to vent...
Do any of you ladies get so overwhelmed with work that you just want to quit?
I’m a 1L who is working in D.C. for the summer, and I’m basically working at exactly the type of organization that I’ve wanted to work for since I decided to go to law school years ago. The job is great and the people are great, but I am just. so. tired. I finished finals days before starting work and I’ve already had 2 memos to turn in. I feel like I have been overwhelmed/stressed for the past year and nothing is helping – taking breaks, exercise, down time with friends, talking to others, etc.
I’m sure everyone has their doubts, but I am really starting to wonder if law school/having a career in law is right for me. I know why I came to law school and why I want to be a lawyer, but I also have a genetic blood disorder that (1) will already shorten my lifespan, as most people who have it don’t survive past their 50s, and (2) greatly affects my day-to-day life (i.e. getting stressed out is not good, as it can make me very sick). Since, I was born with this disorder, I’ve learned how to deal with it without getting sick very often, and thankfully have not been seriously sick for a couple of years. But part of me is worried that being a lawyer is going to wreak havoc on my health and I should just quit/go enjoy my life/switch to a career with more down time. I still want to be a lawyer and do the sort of work I’m doing this summer, but I’m just not enjoying it like I thought I would. Sigh.
Anyway, I’m not here looking for answers – just needed to vent. Thanks for reading. :)
Just need to vent...
Oops….meant to say that most people who have it don’t live past their 40s (avg. life expectancy for women with the disease is 48; for men it’s 42).
Ex-3L Sarah
Do your co-workers know about your disorder? If getting stressed out affects you like you say it does, it might help to say something to them (or your boss) and kinda explain it. I’m not saying to use it as an excuse to get less work, or get more days off, or whatever, because you don’t seem like the person who would do something like that anyway. But this may head off an angry confrontation that you may have with your boss (or anyone) over work, and you getting really sick as a result of the stress.
And keep in mind that there are plenty of lawyer jobs that are less stressful (in relation to) others. And your 2L and 3L years are completely different stress-wise than your 1L year. I was a basket case 1L year, fast forward to my last semester when I thought, “Hmmm, I have a final soon…ooo! Ice cream!” You seem like you’ve formed coping mechanisms for the stress, which is good. But the stress gets better, I promise. :-)
Anon-Y.
I know you’re not looking for answers – but I second that the stress gets better – sometimes it’s just a matter of finding a suitable pace. The “why” (you want to be a lawyer) helps a great deal, as does coming to terms with the fact that the pace or style of practice you want/can handle may be a different from the norm, so to speak. After all, what’s the point if the pace of practice makes you enjoy the work less, or worse, start to hate it?
S
Yes – law school sucks! Before I started law school, lots of attorneys I knew tried to warn me just how much law school sucks but I didn’t fully understand what they were talking about until I got there. I spent every second of my 1L year wanting to quit. For some reason I didn’t and thankfully it got better. It never stopped sucking, but by 3L year it was borderline tolerable. Luckily for me, I found the study of law and the practice of law to be like night and day – I love being an attorney and I love my job! Sure, it can be stressful but I find it a lot easier to leave that stress at work whereas when I was in law school the stress was with me 24/7.
Your post makes it seem like you have a great perspective on life. And while you certainly wouldn’t have gotten as far as you have if you didn’t have some great coping skills, maybe it would help you to talk with someone who can help you develop new, additional ways to cope? Occasionally talking to a counselor – one who was familiar with what law school is like – really helped me while I was in school and I know it helped a lot of my classmates too. As a whole, law students are pretty hard on themselves and learning to be less so is important.
But more than anything, you probably need a vacation (you pretty much said that in your post). You might not have the time and/or money for a real vacation right now, but maybe you can plan a relaxing weekend even if that means just staying home and watching old movies while giving yourself a mani/pedi? Give yourself permission to totally check out for a day or two and, whatever you do, make sure you don’t do anything productive! Good luck!
Lola
Yes, school really does suck. It’s awful. Practice can be just as awful, or it can be better, depending on your job and how you want to approach it. Same goes for 2L and 3L.
It’s helpful to remember that just because you’re in the job you thought you wanted when you began school, you can still change your mind and do something different. No one’s going to look back on your personal statement or whatever, and say they’re not going to hire you because you went to law school with the goal of doing something else.
If this job or school is torturing you, it’s ok to change your plan. That’s called learning from your mistakes, and it’s the only way we move forward.
Good luck.
Kit
Law school, studying for the bar and the first year of practice is very stressful, but after that things seems to calm down. Once you become confident that you know what you are doing, you won’t get so stressed over the little things. If you can make it until then, you will be fine.
On the other hand, if you believe 3+ more years of this stress will take a toll on your health, maybe you need to seriously consider a career change. Personally, I want to be defined by who I am, not what I do for a living. My job is not my life. If your job seriously affects your quality of life (or length of life), it is not worth it.
CJ in CA
You said not looking for answers, but. . .
You say your not enjoying it like you thought you would. Do you see higher ups doing things you think you’d enjoy? If not, then GET OUT. If you don’t like what you’re doing now, you’ll not like the first 2 or 3 years of your career. If you don’t like what the 3rd/4th/5th/ 10th year people are doing, then you probably won’t ever like it and the stress won’t be worth it (For anyone). In your position, I’d say even more so.
Assuming you are a K-JD student and are 23 or so now, when you get through those sucky first 2 years you’ll be 27 and have 13 to 20 years of good work, if you like what the more advanced people are doing. If you are going to suffer those years, spend the next 5 finding something non-stressful you do want to do for the following 20.
North Shore
I encourage the law students working for me in the summers to take a week off at the front of the summer, and a couple of weeks at the end. You need time off or you will burn out. Also, once you start working, it’s hard to take of a big chunk of time. I’d encourage you to take off a few weeks each summer, and plan for a serious amount of time off after you take the bar.
Biglaw Refugee
There are definitely are more and less stressful legal jobs. Working at a smaller firm or government office, where you don’t have lots of fire drills trying to keep obnoxious partners and needy clients happy, may be a good idea. Work that involves more deep thinking and analysis (tax, trusts & estates, appellate law) may also be easier stress-wise than something that involves a lot of late nights, arguing and tight deadlines. If you choose well, I don’t think law has to be all that stressful compared with other jobs.
If you’re a post-1L summer, you’re probably stressed and overwhelmed because everything is new. The same work will feel less stressful, and be easier to do in the time allotted, once you’ve gotten the hang of things. Just be patient.
CFM
Does any one have an Ann Taylor code they are not using?
Biglaw Refugee
20JUNESALE – 20% purchase of $100 or more.
Biglaw Refugee
20JUNESALE – 20% off purchase of $100 or more, through July 5.
Anonymous
Arrgh! Just ordered from BB website on Sunday and their sale started today!! I missed the posts that alerted people to the sale, and have emailed BB asking whether they will refund me (Nordstrom did this…refunded $100 to my account as the item I bought was marked down further a week later).
Does anyone have experience of BB doing this?