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Sales of note for 8.30.24
- Nordstrom – Summer Sale, save up to 60%
- Ann Taylor – 30% off full-price purchase; $99 jackets, dresses & shoes; extra 50% off sale
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- Spanx – Lots of workwear in the big sale, some up to 70% off
- Talbots – 25% off regular-price purchase; 70% off clearance
- White House Black Market – Up to 70% off sale
Anon
Posting for more thoughts just because I feel like I might break up over it. Thank you for everyone who responded so far!
I’ve been with my BF for two years. Everything is great, except for the gardening. I’m his first adult relationship, and he had very little gardening experience beforehand.
Early on, I communicated that going downtown is really important to me as a part of intimacy. He said he loved to do it, but then it only ever happened infrequently or for 30 seconds at a time. He made a comment once that it made him tired, and at another point said that he had a low gardening drive, so it didn’t come naturally. When I later tried to probe if these were blocks for him, he denied it and insisted he loved to do it and that I was taking his words out of context.
I’ve brought it up with him many times over the last two years, and over the last few months it was starting to be more frequent. However, the last month it stopped happening again. I asked him about if it isn’t something he enjoys, and he vehemently denied it again and said that he loves to. I pushed back a little bit and he then admitted that the last time I had a bit more hair, and that had turned him off a bit but it was something he needed to work on getting over.
I feel a bit frustrated. It makes me feel like I’m continually having to ask for the same thing (or even police why it’s not happening) yet he insists he loves to do it and that there are no blocks for him. It is a big deal for me (one of the only aspects of gardening I enjoy) but I also don’t want to have to keep asking for it or monitoring whether or not it’s happening. Not sure how to communicate about it since I’ve tried and he insists there are no blocks for him.
AIMS
It sounds like you’re doing a great job of communicating with him and he isn’t doing a great job of being responsive. To each her own, but this would be kind of a deal breaker for me. No one should feel like they have to repeatedly ask for what they need in a relationship. I also think your line about this being one of the only things you enjoy in that department may be another red flag for you to think about. Is that with this guy? All relationships? How are things for you otherwise? Is he initiating otherwise but not doing the stuff you want? Or is this a bigger issue? Life is too short to spend it unhappy about something that means a lot to you.
Anon
+100. This would never work for me and I would be off to find a partner who did.
Anon
+2 – as Chelsea Handler aptly noted, since you can go to prison for this $&#* now, it ought to be good
Anonymous
I dated a man for a couple months. He was the same way. Said he loved it then did it maybe 10% of the time. That was a dealbreaker. If you love something, you don’t need coercing. I think he is gaslighting you. You’ll have to decide if that’s a dealbreaker for you. If you feel like “well I invested 2 years into this”, ask yourself if you want to feel the way you do, in another 2 years.
Ellen
I was originally interested in men doing that for me b/c they always insisted in me doing that for them. But the men were not that interested in doing that for me; even Alan would only go “downstairs” when he was drunk, and he was very sloppy doing it. But nevertheless he always wanted me to do that for him before he would even touch my breasts. I thought that was a power play, and my Grandma told me that she would never have Grandpa Sy do that to her, so I kind of gave up on it.
Anon
This dude is just bad at gardening. I completely understand, my husband is this way. No amount of coaching, games, etc has helped. For me, I can deal with it because he is great in every other way, but I’ve had to adapt. I don’t love having to use gardening tools during the act but the alternative is divorce. I would assume your bf is never going to change.
Anon
As someone married to a great guy whose bedroom game leaves me looking up divorce attorneys… is there any hope? I truly don’t understand what is so hard – listen to the person you allegedly love and do more of what they like and less of that they don’t like.
OP
Would love to hear both of your experiences on this. I feel like this could wind up being me if I stayed with my BF. He’s wonderful and sweet and sometimes I think “Eh, whatever, I can live without good gardening.” But other times I get so resentful, feel frustrated, and, because of monogamy, feel like I’m missing out on all these other experiences I could be having but don’t get to.
Is it something you ever think about or not a big deal?
Anon
You’re still in the boyfriend stage. Move on before you’re 5 years married, still frustrated (or more frustrated than ever) and looking for a divorce lawyer.
Anon
Agree with Anon at 4:26, sadly. And I am a relatively low drive person who, in general, doesn’t require a whole lot to be happy.
A lot of people open themselves up to me and just spill their inner thoughts. Over time, I’ve been able to hear a lot about people’s gardening lives. While women might not say or even consciously think that bad gardening is why they left their marriage, there are just a lot of women I know who walked out of bad-gardening marriages. “The spark wasn’t there anymore. We fought all the time.” Apparently, good gardening makes people happier and less resentful (I wouldn’t know); without it, small irritations just stick around and needle and vex and pile up.
Anon
Ugh, he’s so selfish.
Anonymous
I don’t think that’s fair. People have different likes and dislikes. I don’t like, um, backdoor. If that were an important thing to a partner or he wanted say my mouth to be with his backdoor, I wouldn’t like that at all. If something makes you uncomfortable or grosses you out, it’s OK to set boundaries. The world doesn’t get to define what you are or aren’t supposed to like. That’s not being selfish. That’s having agency around intimate touch. Just because he is male doesn’t mean he should have any less agency. It may mean not the right pairing of folks though. And could indeed be a dealbreaker if alternatives aren’t satisfying.
Anonymous
Yup this. The only selfish part is not being honest about it.
Anon
Okay but he’s still doing that, hence he is selfish.
No Face
I vote selfish because OP has tried to talk to him about it many times and he’s gaslighting her.
If there’s an act that one person loves and another person hates, the compromise is finding mutually enjoyable alternatives or doing the act less often. He keeps saying he likes it and then acts differently, putting OP in a confusing spot.
Anonymous
I don’t think this is a proper use of “gaslighting.” He may be being dishonest about its appeal, but he’s not telling her he does it every time even though he doesn’t.
Senior Attorney
He’s telling her that her lived experience, that he doesn’t like to do that thing, is inaccurate. That’s the definition of gaslighting.
Anonymous
Unless I missed it, OP has _not_ said that he is denying that her lived experience is that he doesn’t like it. Ergo we cannot conclude that it’s gaslighting. It definitely seems like he’s lying about his real preferences, or at least misrepresenting them, but I don’t see anywhere where OP says he is trying to tell her what her lived experience with it is. Ergo, not gaslighting, certainly not by your logic.
Anon
I absolutely agree that everyone has the right to set boundaries, but that is not even close to what this guy is doing. Setting a boundary would be, A, I really care about you but I am not comfortable with or4l sex. Then A can decide what she wants to do with that boundary. He is saying yes of course I love it! And then being $hitty about doing it.
AIMS
Also – she is saying she isn’t enjoying the rest! So they are having sh*tty sex that she’s not enjoying and the one thing she does like, he won’t do but he wont admit that he doesn’t want to do it.
What’s selfish is him not making sure she is having a good time when she has explicitly expressed what she needs to have a good time.
Anon
Agree 100% with AIMS. This dude is horribly selfish.
Monte
I am sure he thinks he is communicating properly, and that he does love it — only on his schedule, only for as long as he finds it entertaining and not a second longer, and only when grooming is up to his (previously unspecified) standard. I can’t imagine that after all this time there is some magic phrase you can use to get him to change. If you stay together, you should expect sporadic participation and no small amount of pleading on your point to get it to happen. Only you can decide if the relationship is good enough for you to make that kind of sacrifice.
Anon
I think it’s pretty clear he doesn’t like doing it. He might even like it in theory and might want to do it because he knows it will bring you pleasure, but he doesn’t like it. I disagree with others that it’s selfish for him not to want to do it. This isn’t like washing the dishes even though you don’t like to or giving the occasional foot rub. He is allowed to have intimacy preferences. However, I do think he has acted in bad faith by not just being honest with you. That was wrong of him, and it’s proven very hurtful. But, not you know he doesn’t like (and you really do know that no matter what he says) and it’s on you to decide if it’s worth it to stay in the relationship. If it is, then you need to let this go. It’s not kind or loving to coerce or pressure someone (including asking repeatedly) if you know that don’t want to engage in that act.
Anonymous
You can have whatever dealbreakers you want, and oral can absolutely be one of them, very reasonable. You don’t have to make do.
I agree with Dan Savage that oral is standard, not extra. There are menu items that can be considered a negotiation issue, but that’s a very different list.
Your boyfriend is not being GGG, and maybe not honest (either to you or himself). It can be a skill and confidence thing, but it sounds like he’s not interested enough to practice.
Anon
Agree with all of this.
Anon
Eh, not sure about oral being standard not extra. The real issue: it’s one of the only ways, if not the only way, she can really enjoy it. That’s true for many women and, IMHO, the first order of business is to ensure that both parties are both feeling loved and climaxing. (I never have and it’s wrecking my marriage.) For some women, that means oral, and for others, not necessary. To that end, if the guy doesn’t want to go down, he should figure out something else that is as satisfying to her.
Anom
Ugh. I hate giving oral my DH. He likes it when it’s very slobbery, which doesn’t make me feel good. And it makes me gag. Once I vomited. And it takes too long. It’s a real issue for him that I don’t like to do it.
Anon
I’m the same way and it’s not specific to this act- I have a sensitive gag reflex (just brushing my teeth semi-regularly makes me vomit a little) and a lot of trouble with nausea and food aversions. Luckily my husband is okay with it. It’s obviously fine if this is a deal breaker for you, and you should break up with him if it is, but I’m glad that my husband accepts me for who I am. I do think this would be easier to deal with if he was just clear that he doesn’t like doing this, but I can understand that he might not feel comfortable telling you that it makes him want to vomit or whatever other reason he doesn’t like it.
Anonymous
Have you tried not so much sucking on it, but more using your tongue to lick/suck while holding him in your hand? I don’t mind doing it but my mouth gets tired, so I end up using a lot of hand, and I don’t think it necessarily feels very different if there is enough spit involved. Or it still gets good reviews anyway.
Anon
+1 to this method, also rave reviews
Anon
Honestly this is different than OP’s issue because presumably your husband is getting off from intercourse, while OP is not getting off at all. Her boyfriend can have a preference, but he should also be interested in her receiving pleasure – unless he’s selfish, which he clearly is.
OP – this is important to you, it’s not important to your BF and he has continually lied to you about it. I don’t know why you’re continuing to be with him- seriously.
Anon at 2:37 PM
I wanted to come back to add what I mean about it being standard, not extra.
I guess if you compare to a classic mom&pop diner, asking for oral would be like asking for a black coffee or a sunny side up egg for breakfast. It’s very reasonable to expect that it’s available, it’s not a specialty menu item. In comparison, asking for say, a 3-way, or dog collar, could be like asking for a macha latte made from goats milk. You might be lucky and it’s not like it’s not available, but it wouldn’t be reasonable to expect that it’s easily available anywhere.
Explorette
This sounds like a thing you either need to accept and let it go, or break up over it. He’s not going to change, and constantly asking him about it is frustrating for you and possibly irritating to him.
Anon
Why are we worried about irritating her lying, selfish, gaslighting boyfriend?
Anon
I think it really doesn’t matter what the issue is – whether it’s sex or anything else – the fact that he’s lying, he knows it bothers you, and he refuses to change is what makes it a deal breaker.
Anon
For what it’s worth, this is also a must-have for me that wasn’t happening in the first two years of my relationship (or at least, wasn’t consistent). I was pretty young and he was my first serious relationship, so it took me far too long to feel comfortable letting him know that I needed that to O – but since that conversation 5 years ago he does it every. time. No questions asked. Sometimes I feel guilty bc I certainly do not return the favor, but I’ve asked him multiple times and he’s fine with it. If it’s important to you, and you’ve communicated that to him, and he’s still not meeting your standards – there are other men who will. It’s up to you on whether or not his other qualities are worth the personal sacrifice.
Anon
“Sometimes I feel guilty bc I certainly do not return the favor”
Serious question: if that’s what it takes to get you there, and your husband gets there by other means, is it balanced or unbalanced? I really feel very strongly that since intercourse doesn’t do it for most women – just how biology works, the C is outside not inside the V – men need to do “extra” to get us to the same place.
Anon
OP above and totally agree! And that’s what my husband says, too – he prefers gardening over or@l. The guilt is definitely my own issue, and has significantly decreased over time.
Anon
Do fingers not work for you? It might be easier to play around and try different things this way? I don’t think it’s a problem if he doesn’t want to do any one activity, but he should be willing to try something to make things better for you.
Anon
“Sometimes I feel guilty bc I certainly do not return the favor”
Serious question: if that’s what it takes to get you there, and your husband gets there by other means, is it balanced or unbalanced? I really feel very strongly that since intercourse doesn’t do it for most women – just how biology works, the C is outside not inside the V – men need to do “extra” to get us to the same place.
Anonymous
if his gardening drive is low it’s only going to go lower — ask me how i know.
Anon
my husband really doesn’t like oral and it gets me there the fastest but we compromised. We use a vibe rator instead.
Married 5 years. Together for nearly 10.
OP
Did he tell you he doesn’t like to or did you just infer? Does it create any resentment long-term?
Anon at 4pm
After the initial excitement and faking it wore off we had a pretty frank conversation about preferences. I don’t resent him as long as I get there in the end but I do occasionally daydream about my previous partner that was very into it.
Anon
Also fwiw the partner I occasionally daydream about was only good at that. The rest of the relationship was super toxic so it’s a fleeting thought and then I’m like oh yeah he was awful and manipulative.
Anon
You have got to talk about it OP with any partner. Resentment from inferences and trying to guess is a terrible foundation for a healthy relationship and sex life.
This is not the right man for you.
Anonymous
I think this is the most important thing, OP. Don’t set yourself up for a life of inferences and trying to guess, whatever the theme, Os or washing the dishes. You deserve a partner who communicates with you.
And of course, regular Os is major. If for some reason the poster’s below idea of scent is a thing, that is no big deal. Shower? fine. Anybody who’s getting their bodyparts licked or sucked will do extra maintenance on request, on top of base line level, to keep getting their bodyparts in action. That does not have to be a full wax, but a partner’s preferences is good to know, and a request for a common shower before cunnilingus, fellatio or rimming is always fine.
Senior Attorney
I replied on the previous thread, but I’m coming back to say that to me, the worst part of this is that he’s gaslighting you by saying he likes it. To me that would be a dealbreaker in and of itself.
Anon
+ a million
Katrinka
Are you happy with this person? Not, is this person perfect, but are you happy? Sex does not have to be important to you. I ask because you say “everything is great except…” Is it really great otherwise? Will you miss this guy and be sad when he is no longer in your life and is instead a memory? Or is this guy not really the one but the gardening is the only thing you can objectively point to that isn’t working?
Anonymous
I am the person who posted on the earlier thread about asking for what you want in the moment. I had to drop off and I am just seeing your question. I will come back later or over the weekend with some thoughts/suggestions.
Anonymous
Have you said” Look BF. Be honest. If you don’t like it tell me and I won’t ask again.”
If he says he does like it, then tell him exactly how it’s done. Be explicit. Maybe he doesn’t get it. What men don’t know about women’s bodily responses is A LOT. You have nothing to lose.
If you tell him what to do, exactly how to do it, how long it should take, and that it’s really really important to you and he still doesn’t do it, then he is not for you. The thing is, it goes both ways. If you keep asking him to do something he hates he will resent you for it too and it won’t be good.
Anon
How many times does a woman have to say all this? For two years??? He is simply telling her one thing, doing another, and still getting his own satisfaction in the end. She’s not getting any orgasms with his method. He is.
Anon
I’ll play. My husband enjoys going downtown when it’s bare and will visit frequently. If it’s not, he’s less enthused. I’m not a huge fan of waxing (but will happily do it for a special occasion) but I also don’t need him to go downtown to O so am fine with this. I think the reasons this works for us is 1) our pleasure is mutually important and we both O and 2) he’s forthright about this preference. Since your boyfriend is inexperienced and you otherwise really like him, I’d probably encourage one last conversation where you lay it on the line: “I’m not Oing when we’re together. This is unacceptable. I can get there by X, Y, Z but one of those things needs to be happening every single time we’re together.” And if there’s not an abrupt about face, then I think it’s fair to call him selfish and break up.
Anon
You mentioned this is his first adult relationship. How old is he? Could it be that he said he likes it because he is trying to keep you happy and hasn’t learned yet how to communicate his preferences? It sounds like he really doesn’t like it and is holding back from having that conversation with you. If he isn’t experienced, he might need you to take the lead with trying to have a real conversation about it and if he says he doesn’t like it, what happens next – are there other things you could explore together?
Anonymous
Is it possible odor is an issue and maybe that’s why the conversation isn’t being had? (Hair traps odor) Just wondering if changing up timing post shower has been tried. It’s awful to think an otherwise good relationship has to be sacrificed. If he’s not selfish with other things it’s worth exploring.
Monday
I don’t think it’s fair to anyone to have a requirement to be either free of p*bic hair, or else straight out of the shower, to have satisfying relations with their partner of 2 years.
Anonymous
Counterpoint: my 30s bf of two years says he loves it, regularly initiates it, has done so for 20+ min without sighing, stopping for a drink, or talking, occasionally asks me questions before during or after to confirm I like what is happening, has done it before and after workout (I’m a little less comfortable) and done so regularly whether I’m mostly bare or it’s 1970s down there. Most weeks I use a trimmer but am not bare.
Anon
Ha this answer is awesome! I love your BF. My husband is the same! :)
baburiba
I’ve been thinking about this thread. David Schnarch wrote a really useful book about this called “The Passionate Marriage”. In long term relationships he says it’s almost inevitable that you’re going to find yourself at a point where the two of you have each accommodated as much as you can and something’s gotta give. The couple may split, or one partner may grow and evolve. Evolving shifts the equilibrium and may break the logjam for a while.
In a relationship as new as yours, I’d be tempted to walk out over the gardening issue. In my experience 20+ years married, good gardening takes a lot of hits: kids, parents’ deaths, layoffs, menopause. So if you’re already not getting results from communicating about what makes that garden grow, you might see that get harder… On the other hand, there’s always going to be something in a long term relationship. Two humans sharing a life are always going to have disconnects and mismatches that you can’t actively listen your way out of.
AnonQ
I’m in a real life funk lately. Looking for a new job, super single, not eating all that well or exercising much, and very upset about the recent SCOTUS rulings. What little things are you doing to spark joy in your days? Hoping I can get some mojo back in small ways and trigger some bigger, needed changes.
Anonymous
I have found myself here too… I tried to brainstorm a list of things which take 10-20 mins, some things that take 30-60 mins, and some things that take 2-3 hours. I even went so far as to writing all of them on different colors of paper so I can draw one at random – haha.
Here are some of the things I came up with:
Short
– text a friend
– light a scented candle
– 10 min meditation
– Dance party for one (10 mins)
– throw a ball for my dog
Medium
– plant some seeds
– take a yoga class
– read 1 chapter of a book
– drink tea on the patio
– make a cocktail/glass of wine
Long
– go for a bike ride
– go for a hike
– read a book in the park
Anonymous
some things I like to do to make things just a little bit brighter for me:
make a fancy drink–I don’t drink often so for me this is a nice cup of tea or my favorite sparkling water flavor with some fruit in it or a fancy homemade cup of coffee (topped with real whipped cream and cinnamon is an absolute delight)
a walk along the river
burning a candle
using my nice hand cream (what occasion I think I am saving it for, I will never know)
listening to my favorite “happy” songs (I have a couple different playlists for this)
Anon
I’m planning on doing a bunch of baking this weekend, restocking my freezer with bread and other reasonably healthy baked goods. If you like to cook, maybe some sort of cooking or baking project would help with the eating better part?
Anon
More than anything I’ve noticed that scrolling on my phone makes me feel worse, even though it feels good in the moment. Deleting social media off the phone has helped somewhat but it’s a struggle.
Getting outside and appreciating nature helps me a lot. I have a deck I like to drink my coffee on in the mornings and leave my phone inside. Just listening to the birds, looking at the light streaming through the trees, appreciating that it’s summer.
Doing things I know are good for me even when I’m not that enthusiastic about them, like making plans with friends, exercising, etc. If I can force myself to do it for 5 minutes I end up enjoying it and feeling better.
Hypatia
My mental health was at an all-time-low in spring 2021 and I still feel like I’m working my way back to my 2019 baseline. What helps me, organized by energy level:
Low Energy:
podcast & a long walk (I like Everything is Fine, Hidden Brain, Ezra Klein, Ologies, Poetry Unbound)
cold shower
Spotify playlist + watercolor/painting/gardening/cooking
fresh flowers
Medium Energy:
Riding a bike at sunset
High energy:
Running in a park
Going to live music
Spontaneous trip
Sloan Sabbith
A couple of years ago I wrote a list of “secrets of adulthood” for myself inspired by Gretchen Rubin. I went back recently and added a couple. Some of them aren’t about sparking joy, but some are (or could be). Some of the more practical ones don’t spark joy in the moment but make me happier overall. A couple I’ve tried to incorporate recently:
Take ibuprofen when I have a headache.
Sleep instead of scroll.
Go, because I want to. Because wanting to leave is enough.
Pet the dog.
Buy the flowers. Light the candle. Use tip the mud mask.
Five minutes outside is more than no minutes outside. Get out there.
Sit at the coffee shop, at the restaurant, in the bookstore. Take a breather.
Seventh Sister
I finally pulled out all of the non-working cords and cleaned up the area around the outlet next to our TV. It wasn’t unsafe, just messy.
beauty
love this
10/10
Seventh Sister
love this
10/10
AIMS
Ladies – low stake ask here – I need new underwear. What are your favorites? There seems to be very little available in actual stores for me to “evaluate” these days and I find blindly ordering online to be very hit or miss. I used to love hanky panky but now find they don’t last well so looking to branch out. No particular style preference as I rotate thru a few but would like something that doesn’t dig in or leave visible lines (VPL and otherwise). If it matters, my current favorite go to is a low cut-ish Natori boy short that they don’t seem to make anymore.
Anon
Besides Natori I like Chantelle’s one size fit all underwear. They’re the only underwear that are truly no show on me – I can wear them under thin yoga pants. They’re very comfy and stretchy.
anon
Second this. I prefer their hipsters, but they also have bikinis, briefs, and thongs. They are the best.
Girlonawireless
+1 the Chantelle OS is my favorite. Comfortable, no show, and they have them in a few colors.
Anonymous
I want to try the Chantelle one size but as a size 14 I have a hard time trusting that they would actually fit me.
Anon
I am a 12/14 and they fit me! I’ve worn them from sizes 8-14 (including one pregnancy).
Anon
I buy cheap thongs from Aerie and Old Navy.
Senior Attorney
I love the Soma Vanishing Edge bikini panties.
Anonymous
I love the Soma Vanishing Edge bikini panties.
Anon
I like soma but I like the embraceable brief with lace at the top. The silicone strip on the vanishing irritates my skin.
Anon
Fruit of the Loom Micro Mesh Low Rise Briefs. They’re not anything anyone would consider fashionable, but they’re comfortable, wear well, and the price is right.
Anon
I like these too. Really comfy.
Calrayo
I really like my Cuup bikinis. The modal fabric is soft, looks nice, and the cut is flattering. They have fun seasonal colors, too.
ollie
I like Knix (both for regular and period underwear)
Cat
I like Natori’s other styles!
Explorette
Someone on here recommended Boombas awhile back, and I just ordered more because I love them so much. So thanks for whoever put that out there! At one point I was wearing my new Boombas and watching Minx, both recs that week, and was so happy for this community :)
Anonymous
Jockey bikinis. Macys always has them and they go on sale a lot.
Anonymous
Marks & Spencer’s. They have lots of different no VPL in different fabrics and different leg and waist cuts.
Anonymous
I buy cheap 5 packs from Amazon or TJ Maxx. Like 5 pairs for $12 cheap.
Hypatia
My faves are the Gap Body breathe hipster. They’re super, super soft and last years. There’s a little VPL but not super noticeable. If you’re looking for any kind of shaping, these aren’t it.
Anon
Gap underwear last forever. Lots of different styles and they do have them in store.
Anon
My go to is the Auden line at Target
Anon
I recently ordered a bunch of different styles from Knickey and love them. My preference is boring cotton undies and these are perfect for that. You can order a sample pack and return if you don’t like them.
I did need to size up to a S from my usual XS — the smaller ones fit but cause panty lines.
Anon
Gap cotton underwear.
Ashex
I LOVE Jockey No Panty Line Promise bikinis. I turned my sister in to them. She gets them in the brief style.I have worn them for 2 decades As I have fluctuated weight up or down, they aways fit. I have tried other underwear and nothing feels or looks as good under pants. They stretch when they need to and hold shape when they need to. They are so confortable!
Anonymous
Obviously a personal question regarding your views of money but in light of the discussions this morning, I’d like people’s take on how they think of this. What is your balance between spending money to live the life you want now versus saving or investing as much as possible for later; later doesn’t just mean retirement but also like for use in your 50s or 60s.
Single, age 42, making just over 200k as a public sector lawyer though did the biglaw thing for 8 years to start my career. In both biglaw and even in government I’ve always been able to live in such a way where I save 40% or more of my net salary each year, on top of the IRS max in retirement. Sounds good right? Except it’s meant that I live in one bedroom apartments. Nothing wrong with that but I’m someone who feels like I’d enjoy having a house, like furnishing it piece by piece, dealing with painting and even repairs as I’m someone with those interests. Yet in my area in the suburbs of DC, there is no way I can get any kind of house I’d want to live in to own and live in that’ll be comparable to the $2000 per month I pay now. My housing costs including taxes and insurance and HOA would at least double. Thing is I can afford it as I live way below my means, but then it’s like is it worth giving up saving 3k in cash monthly? I understand I’d be building equity and setting myself for not having a housing payment when I’m retired though.
Saving for “later” for me means early retirement (nothing saving crazy but ideally early 60s) and the insurance costs that come with that and maybe buying a business in my 50s, as I can’t see myself doing law for that much longer (though then I wouldn’t early retire most likely); I think I feel like the savings just gives me flexibility but here I am nearly 20 years out of law school, having never once exercised that flexibility.
How do you think about this? For those that are married, do you and your spouse have different views on this and how did you come to an agreement?
Anonymous
With regard to the house payment, consider that your rent will go up over the years but your mortgage payment won’t.
Anon
I’m going to channel my recently deceased father a little here. He worked very hard and was good with money. He was diagnosed with cancer at 67 and dead 18 months later. He found comfort in not being a financial burden on his children and being able to leave us a little something. With that said, I know he would tell you “buy the house.” Buy it as soon as you can and enjoy it as soon as you can. I would give back every cent he left me, if it would mean he had the opportunity to do the travel he always wanted to do but didn’t get around to because he was working so hard.
Anonymous
I struggle greatly with this, hope you get a lot of replies.
I make 150K in NYC and own an okay 1-bedroom apartment in an okay area I don’t love, missing many bells and whistles (no in-unit laundry). I save 50% of my income for retirement and live a relatively frugal life (my clothes are nice enough, but I buy them on sale or Poshmark except if I really love something). I struggle with whether to live in a cooler neighborhood in a nicer apartment–I’m sure I’d love it, but couldn’t afford to buy something like that, so would be paying more money every month to rent than I am right now to own. My BFF makes less money than I do but is constantly doing fun things that I don’t want to waste money on, always buys whatever beautiful clothing she wants and gets rid of it when she’s tired of it. TBH some of the nicest clothes in my wardrobe are the ones she’s given me when she’s tired of them! I don’t know where to find the balance.
Anonymous
Take this with a grain of salt but as I left NYC five years ago, but in NYC I would NOT do this. You’re doing a great job so keep at it. I lived there for a decade so I understand the allure of getting a better apartment and thus getting things that adults everywhere in the country take for granted like in unit laundry or a dishwasher or walk in closet. Believe me I get it – it’s what caused me to leave NYC rather than pay for a luxury apartment which back then would have rented for 5k/month and a lot more now.
Yet if you can only afford to rent such a place, you are throwing more money at rent and thus saving less for an eventual purchase AND when it comes time to buy if all you can reasonably afford is a regular doorman one bed without laundry that isn’t in the coolest area – like an apt like you live in now – believe me most people then do not buy because it’s a “downgrade” from the nicer living they’ve gotten used to. Then they keep on renting and saving less and less for their own purchase as rents rise. This is a tale as old as time in NYC – young professionals making money but have nothing to show for it whether it’s savings, investments, retirement savings, or owning a place – because living nicely costs so much of their high salaries.
All of this is of course premised on the assumption that you will buy a place somewhere at some point whether NYC or not, as most people do so they aren’t having to pay rising rents as a retiree.
Anonymous
Thanks for the response. Yeah, it does feel like what I’m doing is the prudent thing, but as you point out it, my nice-enough-by-NYC standards standard of living is missing some things that my friends in other places take for granted. I guess that’s the trade off!
Anonymous
I don’t know how I’d make the housing decision you’re thinking of, but I’d absolutely, certainly, loosen up on saving 50% a year for retirement and give yourself some money to enjoy some freedom right now. 75K a year is 6kish a month saved (I’m not accounting for any taxes here, obviously). If you even gave yourself $500 a month for lifestyle spending, you could get a great deal of enjoyment out of the options that would give you while still saving bazillions for retirement. You’d have allow yourself to “waste” some money on the fun things, like your friend does, but it would be worth it.
Anonymous
Thanks for the comment. You’re right, I could definitely get a great deal of enjoyment if I allowed myself to “waste” a bit more money. Maybe I should try an experiment where I “have to” spend some certain amount a month.
Anon
When you say on top of saving the “IRS max in retirement” what do you mean? Do you mean IRA limits? IRA limits plus one supplemental plan limit? IRA plus 2 supplemental plan limits? And pre-tax or Roth to the extent possible? Because while the answer could be either you are saving a lot, or that you are saving an insane amount. Also, what kind of governmental pension or defined contribution plan do you have? While you have subsidized retiree health benefits in addition to Medicare?
Anonymous
OP here – my retirement savings isn’t crazy. I mean IRS max for the 401k, which gets an 8% match, though if I were to leave my job that match percent would be 0-4% which is standard in my industry. I have a small government pension – like $12,000 per year before taxes. Won’t have retiree health care.
AIMS
If you’re saving at least 16% pre tax (am I reading your 8% match correctly) and whatever else you mentioned, I think you’re doing better than a LOT of people out there. Personally, I think life is too short to not actually live it a little. I know that gets used to justify being all sorts of irresponsible but I don’t think you would be being irresponsible by investing in equity and a better quality of life.
Anonymous
Yeah I’m saving 10% which is my own contribution to get to the IRS max amount allowed in the 401k plus employer puts in 8%, so it’s 18% pre tax.
Minnie Beebe
Not answering the original question, I realize, but I don’t think employer match counts toward the IRS max. Maybe your 401k program is an outlier, but every time I’ve had an employer match I was able to contribute the max amount, and the employer match was just extra– I think it’s a separate line on the W2?
Anonymous
OP – contributing the 20.5k IRS max myself + then there’s an 8% match, so yes it’s more than 20.5k per year. So I’m not looking at my contribution plus theirs and saying ok I got to 20.5k.
Anonymous
I spent about the same amount of time in biglaw and now make much less in a lower stress, JD advantage job. I made the leap after using a retirement income calculator I found online and realized my current balances, plus modest additional funding each year, would be enough for me. I moved to a lower COL area and now have a house. I am happy with a pretty modest lifestyle. I don’t feel like I need $10M in retirement like some people here, and my parents both passed before having time to really enjoy retirement, so that was a huge factor for me. I want to enjoy my life while I’m young and healthy enough to live it.
Senior Attorney
Think of it this way: You’re building equity in the house so you’re not “giving up” the savings, you’re just saving in a different form.
Also: Buy the house! I’ve (almost) always had my own house even when I was a little financially stretched, and I don’t regret it a bit.
Anon
If you want the house and will stay in the house at least five years, then buy the house. Finance on as short a mortgage as you can afford (which might be 30 years at today’s interest rates but jump on any chance to re-finance to 15 years).
First – the taxes may go up but your mortgage payment will stay the same (unless you refinance).
Second – I will be paying my house off before I need to retire. That means that while I will have maintenance and taxes (which is not a huge issue in California), I will not have a housing payment. I have seen so many people here who have to move once they retire because they cannot afford rapidly increasing housing costs on a fixed income.
Senior Attorney
I’m all for paying off your mortgage early if you want to, but OP — don’t take out a 15 year mortgage and lock yourself into those high payments. Take a 30-year mortgage and make the payments as though it were a 15-year. That way if anything happens you have the option to pay the lower amount without refinancing.
Anon
+1000
Anon @4:46
Good point I have owned long enough that my initial rate was quite high (7%) compared to my.current rate so when I refinanced the extra payment was only $400 a month. Certainly I’m not suggesting you should tie yourself into a 15 year mortgage if the payments are going to be an issue.
This only works if you do not treat your house like a bank and constantly take out your equity. I probably have the shabbiest house on my block but my neighbors will never pay their houses off at the right they are going!
Anon
But the house – you’ve worked hard and saved, it’s time to live your life. We are all spending so much more time at home now so especially worth it. You don’t need to buy something humongous but I think you’d like it and you can afford it.
Anon
I just want to chime in and say I don’t think you’re going to get a balanced view of what the average earner at your level would do. There’s a lot of bragging on this board about how much people save, to the point of it being like a d1ck measuring contest. I don’t think anyone who doesn’t save as much is going to be comfortable speaking up.
helloanon
I think OP is above average in both salary and savings rate! If I’m reading OP correctly, they are saving at least $36k after taxes, per year on top of pre-tax retirement savings. That’s fantastic and well beyond the reach of the average person. Even if OP spent an extra $2k in housing costs to buy, they can still max out their IRA and save $1k per month post-tax. For me, as a single woman close to OP’s age, that would be enough financial security to buy a house, and I do own a house on a much lower salary. I want to enjoy my life while living responsibly and OP is well within that definition for me. Plus, by buying now, OP will pay off even a 30 yr mortgage by her early 70s, dropping one major expense from retirement life. OP, I say go for it. You have done so well for yourself. Enjoy life!
Anon
Single, 42, $200k (not including bonus), LCOL, mortgage debt of $145k ($1045/mo), and SL debt of $95k ($830/mo).
I have almost died three times so I probably err on the side of live my life. I max out my 401k every year (and get a 6% employer match), I fully fund an IRA every year, and I save $2k/mo on average (although that pot of money is what I use for all big expenses as well as my emergency fund). Part of my strategy as a never married has been to stay in my LCOL town. I bought my first house in 2009, sold it 10 yrs later and bought my current house (“city” to suburbs). I could have paid off my SL quicker but instead I took vacations and paid for cars in cash and used bonus money for retirement funding and house stuff. My life is richer because I buy originals art for my home ($1000 – $6000 range), go on vacations (avg cost $2500 – I am a dirt bag style traveler), get jewelry made for myself, have a lot of low cost and one high cost hobbies, and buy quality sustainable clothing. These things all make me happy in the present and while I am preparing for the future, I am also not solely focused on it. Will I have enough? Probably not. But I am okay with that. I don’t want to live forever and am already planning on how to make an exit before things get bad. Is that failsafe? No. But it’s where my comfort level is and it works for me.
I love my life. I enjoy it. I have nice things that bring me pleasure. I can treat myself and also have a savings account for emergencies.
Anony
Where do you buy your original art? Always interested in finding new artists, as I find buying original art also makes my life feel more full/rich.
Anon
One of my favorite starting off point galleries has been the Liz Lidgett gallery. https://www.lizlidgett.com/
Woof
Could you buy a second home in the country? Many New Yorkers do not own in the city, but buy elsewhere at a lower cost to enjoy the countryside. You can go on weekends, putter and garden, build equity, etc. Just an idea…
Anonymous
Yes. Buy the house.
I made exactly the transition you described (one bed to small town house in DC, albeit a few years earlier than you) and having an outside space, a dedicated home office, and more living space feels lovely. I feel like a settled adult. I have a garden. It’s easier to entertain and I do it more often.
Anonymous
I would not buy now when the market is absolutely berserk if you feel like it will already stretch you and it isn’t the best financial decision.
Wait a 6 mo-2 years — a crash is coming and you can buy when it feels really scary. We did that and when we sold it we almost doubled our money. It was a huge windfall. If I’d bought at the height of the market I’d have been trapped in the best I could afford for years and years.
Anonymous
Different poster here and sort of agree. Looks like OP is in the DC area where I am also – the suburban townhouse market is already cracking. Homes that were going for 925k just six months ago with no inspections as people snatched them up for 50k over asking are now listing for 850k. Start looking OP as I wouldn’t be shocked if in another 2-6 months they go sub 800k. And this is true at every price point – so something in the high 700s in Jan could end up sub 700k depending on how the economy goes.
I don’t agree that OP is financially stretched though. She has far more financial cushion than is normal even in her income range, which gives her some options now that she wants to buy.
Anonymous
I have found myself here too… I tried to brainstorm a list of things which take 10-20 mins, some things that take 30-60 mins, and some things that take 2-3 hours. I even went so far as to writing all of them on different colors of paper so I can draw one at random – haha.
Here are some of the things I came up with:
Short
– text a friend
– light a scented candle
– 10 min meditation
– Dance party for one (10 mins)
– throw a ball for my dog
Medium
– plant some seeds
– take a yoga class
– read 1 chapter of a book
– drink tea on the patio
– make a cocktail/glass of wine
Long
– go for a bike ride
– go for a hike
– read a book in the park
Lydia
Any recs for bike shorts to work out in? Mostly just cardio HIIT or cardio dance or some kind of yoga at home (love obé fitness!). Any reason not to get the cheap ones online?
Anonymous
some of the favorite ones i bought this year were the 2 pack at costco if that’s an option. i’m not seeing them online but there’s a “kirkland bike short” that looks similar.
Monday
Old Navy “balance” high rise. I actually returned some others from Lululemon in favor of these, which were like 1/6 the price.
Anon
I don’t have these specific ones, but I’ve been really happy with all of my Old Navy athletic wear. I would suggest reading the reviews for sizing- for some reason the sizing in different types of leggings varies a lot and I have S, M, and L that all fit well. I assume this applies to shorts too.
Anon
This seems to be just an old navy thing. Sizing is just wildly inconsistent. Am I an extra small or am I a large? Who knows.
Anonymous
Depending on how your legs are shaped, you might find that the cheap ones ride up.
I have much better luck with shorts that have a grippy rubber strip on the inside of the leg at the hem.
C
I love my ododos brand from amazon. They have pockets! You can get short, regular or long length. Don’t love the high waist but love everything else. I have five pairs.
C
here is a link for the mid length biker short with pockets.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B089CNKY2Y/ref=sspa_dk_detail_1?pd_rd_i=B089CX7DZZ&pd_rd_w=vsj7c&content-id=amzn1.sym.f6ec2125-6e9c-413e-8cd4-35afc8257f69&pf_rd_p=f6ec2125-6e9c-413e-8cd4-35afc8257f69&pf_rd_r=NZZJ1X0WPA1W86ZA19WX&pd_rd_wg=cP5N2&pd_rd_r=11bf9db0-01e8-4f85-89ef-374e9b9d9345&s=apparel&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUFBRzUzR0lQNldTN1QmZW5jcnlwdGVkSWQ9QTEwMDI0NzkxSVpWNE5UR0U4NkM1JmVuY3J5cHRlZEFkSWQ9QTA0Njk3MTVEQURLRU5VMVY0UE8md2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9kZXRhaWxfdGhlbWF0aWMmYWN0aW9uPWNsaWNrUmVkaXJlY3QmZG9Ob3RMb2dDbGljaz10cnVl&th=1&psc=1
Senior Attorney
I like the Sweaty Betty brand from Nordstrom.
Anonymous
does anyone go through periods of extreme bloating and then stop? lately my stomach has been huge and i’ve been weirdly full after eating, and feel like i’m stuffed all afternoon and then at 5:00 realize i’ve just gone from feeling “too full” to starving.
Anonymous
Like gas you mean?
Anonymous
For me that kind of bloating is a result of eating wheat or food or drinks with a high level of fructose.
No Face
Sounds like a food intolerance to me. For me, it is lactose.
Anon
i get this but is no matter what i eat or don’t
Curious
Yes, allergies do this to me. Claritin made it stop. Very little congestion, oddly. But also — worth checking with a doctor. Extreme abdominal bloat can be a sign of serious medical issues you want to catch now.
Anonymous
I noticed it after wheat. Went gluten free and felt a lot better. Later found out I had colon cancer. It was in the ascending colon so no blood in stools or diarrhea. Only symptom was the weird bloating. I don’t want to alarm you, but please talk with a doc. FWIW, I was young and no family history,
Anon
For me this was lactose + stress. It really screwed up my stomach so this happened even when I didn’t eat it. I stopped eating it for a few months and my stress levels decreased for other reasons and now my stomach is back to normal and I can eat moderate amounts of lactose no problem — I take a lactaid pill if I’m going to have ice cream and buy lactose free milk for my cereal but I don’t need to avoid the cream sauce in restaurants etc.
Anon
To the mom who was looking for backup camp meal options for her son, Chef Boyardee cheese ravioli meets his restrictions. Campbell’s Chunky Chicken Tortilla soup does as well. IIRC both cans are pop top, so no need to pack a can opener. Bush’s baked beans also meet his restrictions. They are a camp staple for me.
Anon
I just need a minute to rant. My tenant moved out, and during the move out inspection I found out that they glued their pictures and mirrors to the walls. When they tried to remove them they ripped off parts of the drywall. Its going to take a while to fix, and I need the special patching mix. I’m so cranky and just furious at the nonsense today!
Curious
Wow. That sucks.
Curious
Which is to say, I patched a bunch of smaller holes in drywall recently, and I feel you, and I’m sorry.
Anon
Thank you. I hope your repair goes quickly, I know you have a lot on your plate!
Anon
It’s probably command strips. Those things are marketed as no damage to walls but they are manufactured by the devil and take out drywall like that.
Anon
Yea, the command stripes aren’t as great as they make it look. These two actually used hot glue. I keep finding ridges of it on the walls.
Anonymous
they. used. hot. glue. to. glue. pictures. to. walls.
I am flabbergasted and outraged for you. What even.
Anon
Same here. What in the actual . . .
Anon
Thanks. This has been a major learning experience for the questions I need to ask before someone moves in.
Senior Attorney
OMG that is crazy. Note to self: Add “no hot glue on the walls” to my next rental agreement.
Curious
Wait WHAT. I was skeptical when you said glue until you said this.
Holy mother of…
MopeyAnon
I’m really down about my body’s changed shape and rapid weight gain over the last 2 years or so. I am in menopause fully, age 51, and all my weight is in my belly. I am short. A C cup. I can’t wear any dresses anymore, even loose ones, as I look pregnant. i refuse to wear the sack style as it just makes it worse. I basically wear pants and loose tops all the time and I’m sick of it. I really watch my calories up to a point but not religiously. I’m an average eater, I don’t eat out much, I do snack and eat chocolate but I also eat well in -between. I just would love to hear from people in the same situation. What clothes work for you? have you found a style of dress that you feel good in (so far for me only shirtdresses and only sometimes). Have you figured out how to make peace with it (because I certainly haven’t). Would love commiseration and clothing suggestions. (Don’t need “just buy this pill” or extreme exercise tips. Menopause is a beast and stuff that worked before doesn’t work well now.)
Anonymous
Maybe consider hormone replacement therapy? If you really attribute it all to menopause. I didn’t go on HRT for weight, but it gave me so much more energy and mind clarity that I didn’t even realize I was missing with menopause. Weight management is just a plus for me.
Anon
I’m 41 and could have written this, down to no longer wearing most dresses bc I feel like I look slightly pregnant, a short C cup, and just feeling down about it.
One thing that helped me was recently attending a wedding and wearing a few (more formal, not everyday) dresses I do love that fit well and flatter me. What do they have in common? Tailored waists and fuller skirts—exactly the opposite of what’s in style right now. It gave me a little consolidation to realize that current styles are part of the problem!
I either need impeccably tailored dresses or well fitting separates. I am an extreme pear, so fitted tops and a jacket paired with flowy cropped pants or a midi skirt work well, but YMMV. I can do jeans, but I can’t expect them to fit off the rack—they almost never do. I feel better with tailored blouses like button downs. I always wear jewelry and feel a million times better when I take the time to style my hair and wear perfume and lipstick.
All that said, I still don’t feel great about my body all the time. Getting daily exercise helps a lot. I also really try to stay offline or at least spend most of my time looking at real people in the world, not Instagram/social media/advertising highly filtered creations. That stuff is warping our sense of what a real woman looks like.
Go for it
I have no clothing idea other than go to a mall & try on a whole mess of stuff; however, my idea would be to banish snacks & sweets to only the weekend. It will eliminate decision fatigue. Good luck!
MagicUnicorn
It’s not easy by any means but if you are healthy otherwise, it may be time to reset your idea of what a normal body looks like. For me this means bringing to mind the people I love most, think highly of, respect deeply and want to spend time with, then pausing to observe what they really look like. None of them are models, some are more conventionally pretty than others, but all are pure delight and whatever their shape I love them deeply.
The Lone Ranger
Not a magic pill but do you exercise? There are some studies that show that weight training is better than aerobic exercise. Plus the fact that women lose muscle as we age, so strength training is important. It doesn’t need to be extreme.
For dresses, I have a simiar issue and I wear a lot of JJill v-neck A line dresses. I convince myself that the v neck draws the eyes to the neckline and not my waist. I’m a casual dresser though so they may not work for you. I also wear Jockey skimmies under dresses to sort of smooth and blur the lines.
anon
+ to JJill. I am well past menopause and have a definite menopot. I also do strength training — can’t do any weight-bearing exercises as I wore away my knee cartilage running as a youngster.
I fading JJill to be a [much] lower cost alternative to Eileen Fisher. Which is another choice if money is no object or you find it on sale. Build a wardrobe of neutrals, probably solids, if you find you can do that art teacher kind of wide pant/tunic/long scarf/interesting jewelry vibe?
Just an idea . . .
Anonymous
I’m 59 and for me three thing helped. 1. Intermittent fast. Have a coffee with milk for breakfast but no actual food until noon. No food after 7pm. 2.Limit carbs. Try not to eat any carbs during the week if you can and 3. Weight machine circuit at the gym every other day. If all else fails there is no shame in lipo. You only get one life you deserve to be happy in your body.
Some of the tricks
To make your waistline appear smaller, you can add interest at the shoulders, and have a v-neck (or other visual vertical line) that visually splits you at the front. Shoulderpads, puff sleeves, things like that will broaden your shoulders and make the waist smaller by comparison. If you’re wearing pants and a top, tuck it at the front, but pull it out so it flows loosely over the tuck, giving the illusion that the material is air more than pouch. If you have very narrow hips and legs, flowy skirts are great, those midi pleated flowing things will change the widest point in your silhouette.
I’ve been binging youtube videos about this lately, and I’ve recommended this UK stylist before, she has great tips
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFigLE1RiKg
40th Bday
What would you buy yourself for your 40th birthday this month? I am married, no kids, with 1 elderly cat & 1 elderly dog. Academic radiologist. Into fitness/bodybuilding. Live in a big city and enjoy being outdoors with hubby and dog. I cannot decide what I want! Please give me all of your ideas!
Cat
A great hybrid road/trail bike? Upgraded my old Target bike to one from a bike shop last year and SO happy with it!
Anon
Yes! This is spendy but I treated myself to a Blix Aveny e-bike. Now that I don’t have to sweat the hills, I love taking my bike out. It’s a beauty and makes me very happy.
Senior Attorney
Ebikes rule. You push the button and the hills and headwinds go away.
Senior Attorney
A trip to someplace fabulous. Maybe Iceland?
Anon
A trip is always the answer for me.
C
I tend to go for jewelry, but that’s me! For the fitness side of things, is there a trail outfit item that just really seems like it is the best moisture wicking odor resistant full of pockets sink wash (insert your preferred features) thing out there that you wouldn’t ordinarily spring for? Or maybe a really nice breathable rain jacket?
Also, happy birthday!
Anonymous
I buy things I’ve been eyeing for a while, and don’t really have a reason to justify getting as a ‘just because’ thing because they are a little more expensive/frivolous than the things I normally buy.
Since you can’t decide, maybe try putting it out of your mind and waiting until something really catches your eye?
Happy birthday!
A
A Barbour waxed jacket to keep you warm and dry outdoors.
Anonymous
I always get the best travel advice here – heading to Asheville in 2 weeks and have never been anywhere in that part of the country. Staying a week in a Vrbo.
Would love recommendations for fun/unique restaurant and shops to visit? Any other advice?
Anon
Restaurants: The Admiral, The Bull & Beggar, French Broad Chocolate Lounge, Rhubarb, Curate, Vinnie’s Neighborhood Italian, Hole Doughnuts
Neat book store: Battery Park Book Exchange
Neat store: Mast General Store
My mother and I stayed at The Reynolds Mansion in Nov 2019 and loved it although it was under new ownership then so not sure what has changed. Great B&B!
Op
Thank you!
Anonymous
Read “Book Lovers” — Asheville is heavily featured! (Also it’s a delightful rom com.)
OP
Thank you! I will read that – I already read her other 2,recent books :)
Anon
Early Girl’s for breakfast!
Anon
But avoid the Spinach and Potato Cakes, or risk serious disappointment and food envy for everyone else’s selections.
Mocha Frappuccino
For food, I love Chai Pani (Indian food), Early Girl (southern food; great brunch!), and Plant (I’m not vegan but super delicious vegan food). Tons of great breweries in Asheville from tiny local places to the eastern outpost for Sierra Nevada. Antidote at Chemist Spirits for cool cocktail bar.
Things to do: even if you’re not into hiking, driving a little bit of the Blue Ridge Parkway is great for getting some views in. There’s some easier walks along there, plus hiking of course. The River Arts District is cool for public art plus lots of small stores for shopping (coffee and breweries down there too). Second the recommendation for Mast General Store.
Not sure how long you’ll be there, but one of my favorite places in the world is the Biltmore Estates: one of the Vanderbilts’ mansion built like a French chateau. You can tour the house and they have many rooms with all the period furniture, decorations, etc. Beautiful gardens, a winery, barnyard animals for kids. It’s really an all day thing, so I’d only recommend it if you’re in town for a few days or historical houses are your jam. I’ve been going since I was a kid and it never gets old.
Anonymous
Visit the Pinball Museum in Asheville if you like pinball even a little bit. It’s more of a large pinball arcade than a “museum” in that most machines are playable rather than being for display only.
Anonymous
The Biltmore is worth it – I was unsure about it when I went, but definitely worth at least one full day there.
Anonymous
Alarmist thought of the day: is anyone moving money out of US banks/markets into something else?
Anon
Yes, everything under my mattress.
Anonymous
Rubles!
Anon
Because of the recession? No. Because I want to flee the US to somewhere more welcoming to women? Maybe.
Anon
I work for an R1 university in the US every summer for 4 yrs. Every summer they send new hiring paperwork which contains my legal name, current home address, pay rate, pay period, etc. Yesterday, I emailed asking when to expect it. I found out that someone in HR had been told to send it to a new email address. That email address is a random woman’s name plus the number sixty9 at A0L. They not only didn’t send via my school account, they didn’t confirm via my school account that the request to change my address was from me, as it came from that account name. They just changed it. And send the information there. Is this legal to have sent my personal info out like that?
Would it make a difference to know that my work is controversial and I live in a state where my work is now illegal, which often leads to me getting threats and the police are no help because my work has become illegal so they say they can’t protect me? In other words, this wasn’t just a clerical error for me, it disclosed an address I have spent years keeping private, including using a PO box for mail. I regularly get de@th thre@ts. In the time since this was sent out, I’ve had someone try to h@ck into my venmo and my credit card had a fr@ud situation requiring reissuing. I can’t prove they’re connected but it’s awfully coincidental. I contacted local police who recommended I move, that I let new people know that this home is now at risk, and I don’t let the school give out my new address- though I never okayed it before. My family owns this home so I can’t just move, nor do I feel okay with my family and I now being at risk and I am frustrated that I worked so hard to protect my address for safety and they gave it away to an obviously fake email address. (I have searched it online, there’s no trace of it, so I have no clue who is behind it nor where they may have shared my information, though I do have g00gle alerts on my full name, just in case.)
The school sent an email saying oops, clerical error, we’re sorry, and I’m sure it was an accident, but it feels like there should be some sort of privacy laws in place or something, no?
Anon
Is a university legally required to protect employee’s personal information? I just found out one I work for (an R1) sent my legal name, home address, pay information, etc. to a random email address that was a random woman’s name, the number sixty nin3 on a0l. I can’t trace it with a search so I have no clue who cared enough to find out where I work, email HR, and get my information. The school never emailed me via my school account to confirm this before sending. I found out when I requested something and chased it down after being told it had already been sent to my new email.
If it matters, my work is highly political and I have hidden my home address from the public for years as I regularly receive de@th thre@ts. My home address being shared with unknown person or people literally puts my safety at risk. The school is simply saying, “oops, sorry.”
Is there any legal requirement of protection of this info or anything I can do about this now that they made this mess for me?
Anon
I don’t think there is a legal obligation not to make mistakes, which is what I am assuming they will say this was.
I am trying to follow what happened. It sounds like they sent something like your annual contract to the wrong email address? And per them, you updated your email address so that is why they sent it there? If that second part is true, I would contact your IT right away. In my university, we have pretty robust account controls to stop stuff like you describe. You cannot change your email address without logging in and two-factor authentication. No one should be able to change your email and they may be able to figure out who did it.
Did HR say if it was part of a sunshine law request (if you’re at a public institution)? Our HR does not notify us every time they share our salaries in one of those requests. It happens all the time. However, that would not include my home address.
If you haven’t already, notify HR that you get death threats and your information needs extra protection, similar to what they do for victims of domestic violence. If you haven’t, report the threats so you have a record of that to share with HR (as needed) and for your own protection.
I am sorry this happened.
OP
Apparently someone emailed them claiming to be me, telling them that this odd a0l address was my new email and HR just changed it. We have school accounts with 2 factor and I’ve always only used that one, but someone believed the a0l email person and just changed mine without any confirmation.
Then, when hiring paperwork went out (which included personal info), they sent it to the email on file. I only found out because I emailed HR and the department head asking for the paperwork and found out they’d sent it. They then asked if the email address was mine and, when I pointed out it’s a first name nowhere near mine and a s3xual number and it’s at a0l, they were all pikachu face shocked but just said oopsie and cc’d the department head.
Not only does the school know, but due to the threats, they’ve also been contacted by some of these people, demanding I be fired for my work, so they’ve experienced it. (The people found my CV with my work on it and contacted every contract demanding I be fired, as well as licensing boards to file numerous anon. false claims, they also keep hacking my credit cards, they post my prior addresses on social media, etc. etc.)
I just don’t get how there’s no legal requirements to double check email or only send via confirmed school accounts and no legal ramifications when they screw up this badly (to prevent them from not trying harder not to screw up).
It’s already scary enough and I’d spent years hiding my address, including moving in with family so no bills were in my name, and now they’ve given this to who knows whom and already I’ve had my venmo hacked and my credit cards had to be reissued due to suspicious activity. Police say I should just move, as if I can afford that and as if I can trust the school won’t make this oopsie again! (Also, this contract is for a few grand, so it’ll cost me more than I’d be making, which is even more infuriating.)
Anon
I am sorry. I am stunned that they changed your email without question and without at least a quick email to your school account. I would understand it if you quit or something. But you’re an active employee!
Who do you report to (like up through)? The Provost? Can you make a case that way to get more protection? I am a VP and people tend to listen to me (which is unfair but I try to use my power or good).
Anon
I would spell everything out to the Chief Information Officer, with a copy to the president of the university and to the chair of the board of regents/trustees, unless doing so would raise your profile in a way that increased the danger.
Monday
This is terrible. I’d make a huge deal of it, because you’re right that somebody just emailing in saying “it me, please start sending all info on this person to my address instead” is ridiculous. I agree with the suggestion to take this up the chain of authority in whatever way you can. If the service you’re providing, and all the risk that comes with it, are valuable to the university, then use that leverage hard. Even if you’re not considering quitting, let them think you are (again, if you have leverage). You could tally up what this has cost you and ask for them to reimburse it for making such a serious error. They should be scared of this ever happening again.
Anon
FERPA protects student information, but I don’t think it applies to staff or faculty. In fact, if you work at a public institution, open records laws make your name, title, and salary all public information, which can be requested specifically or is often posted publicly (many states have a database anyone can search). The home address is more iffy- not sure if that’s something people are allowed to request. But this sounds like it was just a mistake due to poor security practices, which is definitely disturbing, but I’m less sure you can do anything about it. My universities generally only deal with university email addresses and won’t send stuff externally unless you’re a former employee. I’m sorry this happened- this seems really surprisingly lax.
Anon
I’m a sysadmin at a big R1 who gets requests all the time to update an employee’s preferred email address and I can’t, even if I wanted to (not that I would, even if I could). Your HR & university’s IT Security office can and should lock that down so only the user can modify. It’s a simple enough thing in PeopleSoft – not sure about Workday, Banner, etc.
Anon
We use Workday and it’s also no hard to do.
Anonymous
Likely, no, but their own policies might say they won’t change only based on an email. If you haven’t, perhaps ask them to pay for an identity theft protection service.
Anon
You should raise holy hell about this, especially if this is a public university. If it is, I would seriously consider contacting my representative at the state level if HR is not responsive to you.
There is absolutely no way that they should be sending anything like that to anywhere other than your official school email address. If we sent something about a student to anywhere other than their school email address, we would have just committed a FERPA violation by confirming that the student was registered at the school. This may very well be one too.
Anon
I would also raise hell because you deserve and apology and an explanation. They also need to fix Thai serious security breach. Unfortunately, I don’t think you have a legal recourse. Even if FERPA were implicated (it’s not), it has no teeth or private right of action.
Anon
FERPA only applies to students; not faculty and staff. This is not a FERPA violation.
Anon
This not actually how FERPA works. It’s not a violation to confirm dates of attendance. That’s directory information and schools can share it unless the student has explicitly opted out.
Deo Desperate
Need your recommendations for deodorant that truly does not stain/leave white marks on clothes. I have tried several – Dove, Degree – that say they do not leave white marks but they do. Thanks in advance!
Marie
Native
London (formerly NY) CPA
Never had any issues with Secret gel deodorant
Anonymous
The Dove aerosol ones that claim to leave no white marks work for me as long as I make sure it is fully dry before putting on a shirt. I am not sure about yellow staining on white fabric; I think that is a chemical reaction involving sweat that is hard to prevent, but they don’t leave white marks on dark fabric.
Rothy's code?
Anybody got a $20 off code for Rothy’s that they can share?
Anonymous
Sure, enjoy!
https://share.rothys.com/x/ZFd5Us
Curious
If anyone’s checking in from Illinois, the Highland Park shooting is terrifying and I’m so sorry and so angry. We’ve got to find a way to come to terms with the violence in this country’s DNA and get it out.