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Something on your mind? Chat about it here.
For some reason, this weekend I want a hot mama dress. Something totally sexy to wear out to dinner with the hubs. Lurve this little number from Michael Kors — the pleats! the boning! the slit! Hot, hot, hot. It's also 70% off — was $1,915, now $574.50. Houndstooth strapless wool dress
Target Shopper
What do you all think of Three Dots tee shirts? They’re 3x as much as Merona tees from Target; are they 3x better?
Thanks.
Legally Brunette
I have two Three Dots shirts and love them. Not sure if they are 3x better than Target, but they’re definitely higher quality, are very flattering, retain their shape well, and come in a bunch of lovely colors. I would wait until they go on sale though. Most all of their T-shirts go on sale on Nordstrom.com — I bought a shirt for $20, originally $40
AIMS
I love them. Soft, flattering, comfy.
I always see them on sale & always buy them.
michelle
love Three Dots – great weight, fit, drape… I have a cotton woven twin set from them that is unbelieveably flattering for such a simple thing.
F
Have one three dots tee and love it. Planning to buy more
rg
So glad for open thread…I really need some career advice/perspective.
As some background, I’m a PhD scientist who’s trying to move away from research to a more program management type role. I graduated three years ago, and I have since held two temporary positions (both amazing opportunities, one in research, the other not at all). I’m wrapping up my second position, and have been looking for something more permanent. A couple of highly coveted fellowships have come my way, but I decided against them both due to their temporary nature and due to the fact that I wasn’t sure they’d give me experience pointing me in the direction I want to go.
Now my dilemma. I’m in the process of interviewing for a position that would potentially be a great opportunity for me…and I hate to say it out loud (or in print) but it’s looking promising. The only problem, it’s a one year contract. They say that the intention is to provide exposure to the organization, it’s in the executive office of a large organization, with the hope that it could turn into something more permanent. But of course, no guarantees.
So I know it’s premature b/c I don’t have an offer, but I also know that if I get one they’ll want an answer very quickly. And my concern is 1) that I really was hoping for a full-time job. And 2) my husband and I really would like to start a family soon. I should also mention that I could go back to my first temporary research job for a couple more years, and there’s a decent chance it could be made permanent within the next year. I’m trying to decide whether to try something new and possibly put off having a family to do so, go back to a job I don’t love but where having kids would be easy, or whether anyone has much experience looking for positions while pregnant or with an infant. Any thoughts or moral support?
michelle
If the one-year contract is the right job at the right place, take it. It sounds like you should have options at the end of that timeframe (and your needs might be different anyway based on what happens with childbearing for you), especially if there are no exciting permanent positions on the short term horizon.
MHU
I’ve never been in this position, so take my advice with a grain of salt, but…
Is this a position that is being created for you, or have others held something similar before. If the latter, why not say that you’re very interested in working for the company and ask how many of the previous job-holders are still with the company?
Good luck!
i'm nobody
don’t worry about the one-year time period. most of us aren’t guaranteed any job will last more than a few weeks, let alone a year.
Midori
My only caveat with the one-year gig is the family thing. If you have a job when you get pregnant, they can’t terminate your employment for the pregnancy, so you’d have something to return to after maternity leave. I’ve never tried looking for a job pregnant, but it doesn’t sound like it would be easy.
On the other hand, having a break in your career would give you some options. Personally, working while pregnant did not go for me, and it might have been nice to be able to take a few months there and come back at it after I had the baby and got back on my feet.
Only thing I can comment on in your particular field: my husband is the same (PhD, research science type with some interest in the management side). His observation has been that the way to climb in that industry seems to be by lateral moves. At least what he’s seen is it’s very hard to move very far up by staying at the same company. You have to be willing to bounce and try to get hired a level up each time.
Sarah J.
Weird skin problem– I break out all winter long. After years of great skin, I suddenly started breaking out two winters ago. My skin is fine in the summer, but in the winter, it gets covered in little red bumps. I thought it was rosacea, but it goes away in the summer. Does this happen to any of you? Any product recommendations or skincare recommendations? (Exfoliation, etc.)
Ru
You should have different skin care routines for the seasons, especially, in my opinion, the most important area of all time – MOISTURIZING. Get a heavier moisturizer. Also, since you’ve noticed that your skin is more sensitive in the winter, I would say to cover your face when you’re outside (I’m assuming you’re refering to reddening in the face, not your whole body).
jcb
A couple of years ago I started getting red patches in the winters. The only thing that works for me is Kiehl’s Ultra Facial Cream (the one with Greenland on the back of the container – not the regular ultra lotion). I have sensitive skin, and this one moisturizes for 24 hours but isn’t too heavy. I went through what seemed like every single product on the market before finding it! Anyway, maybe it is worth a try for you. Or, maybe you can try finding a good facialist who can recommend products for your particular skin type?
http://www.kiehls.com/Ultra%20Facial%20Cream/622,default,pd.html?start=15&cgid=face-moisturizers
hazel
If the problem is only in the winter I wonder if it is caused by lack of enough vitamin D? When my daughter doesn’t get enough vitamin D she gets red bumps on her upper arms.
anony
Is it just in one area? I used to get a small “rash” on my cheeks (the dry, cold winter made it worse) and the derm said it was verrrrry mild eczema and to just use hydro cortisone cream.
M.S.
I used to have this problem too. It wasn’t really acne, but they were these weird little red bumps on my face. I hate to sound like an ad, but I ordered Proactiv and it worked miracles – the bumps have never reappeared. I think it’s most likely because of the face wash which has little grains it it and exfoliates really well. But the toner also has glycolic acid in it which is a great exfoliator as well.
Selia
Good article on Best Value Law Schools:
http://www.nationaljurist.com/content/best-value-law-schools
i'm nobody
yikes, bar passage rate counts for a third of their rankings. big, big flaw.
E
Teach me more about your thoughts (I’m not in law). High bar passing = teaching to the test? Devalues connections to employers? I’m curious!
Ballerina girl
I don’t think it’s a flaw–that shows you how useful your law degree will be to you. You can go to law school for real cheap and if you don’t pass the bar, you can’t practice and it’s no longer a good deal.
Midori
You can take BarBri to pass the bar. A truly good law school will teach you how to think and engage. Bar passage has nothing to do with those skills. If you just want to pass the bar, you’re looking more for a trade school than a professional degree.
JessC
Agreed. Passing the bar is about knowing just enough law and being able to regurgitate it to get your license.
Law school is/should be about teaching you the skills of a lawyer (researching and writing, advocacy and communication). Along the way, naturally, you’ll learn actual black-letter law.
When I was in law school, there were a handful of bar-tested courses that I passed on because I knew that I would eventually learn it through barbri. I did this because I wanted to make room for skills-oriented classes (trial advocacy, appellate practice, advanced R&W) and internships which would provide me the skills I needed for the rest of my career.
That being said, bar passage rates may not be a wholly bad factor to look at (though maybe it shouldn’t count for 30%). If a school has an overall poor bar passage rate, there is likely something wrong with the foundational education the school is providing its students.
i'm nobody
There are schools that tout their bar passage rate because it’s the most favorable statistic they can cite. Very often, rather than focusing on traditional law school courses and academic rigor, they essentially build bar prep courses into law school.
As Midori points out below, you take BarBri to pass the bar. BarBri shouldn’t be part of law school.
Also, you can pretty much be sure that if BarBri *is* part of law school, that law school is presuming that all their grads will stick around to practice in that location. Higher tier schools don’t do that or teach you state-specific law because they know their grads will go all over the country (or world, even).
i'm nobody
ETA: *above* not below.
Another Laura
Thanks for this: My college-student daughter is starting to research law schools and this is a good resource.
Anon L
Ladies in the D.C. area:
I am visiting D.C. for the first time the first weekend of November. What type of weather should I be expecting (in a general sense)? What are the fashionable types wandering around in on weekends? What shoes should I bring for walking/ sightseeing? I’m a West Coast-er and I have limited cold weather experience – the coldest weather I’ve dressed somewhat stylishly for is 30-40 degrees or so (think cold, wet Central Valley of California winters).
Also, anyone w/ experience sitting in on SCOTUS arguments (not arguing, just observing)? I’m thinking skirt suit w/ nylons?
Thanks in advance!
AIMS
Not from DC but have been to DC at that time of year.
During my trip, it was fairly seasonable — think crisp autumn weather. Maybe a touch warmer than NY if that helps frame it. Light jacket, layers, shawl, kind of thing. Colder at night, but bright & sunny in the daytime (everything is low so you have a ton of sunshine to keep you warm).
As for fashion — I have to say, and no offense to any fashionable DC
corporettes, I was very underwhelmed. Think generic clothes, def. on the conservative side. Lots of khakis & cashmere twinsets. Or leggings, cashmere sweaters & uggs. But maybe those were tourists? Frankly, the whole place felt kind of empty on the weekend.
As for the Supreme Court — I wore a skirt suit w/hose, but lots of women wore pants. You can bring a hand bag into the court room, but men are not allowed anything similar. If you bring a camera, you have to check it outside in a locker. My trip was a wonderful experience. I am sure yours will be as well!
Reluctantly in DC
I agree re: fashion here in D.C. – generic clothes, def. on the conservative side, and no, those aren’t the tourists.
The typical D.C. look is: Print skirt, knit top, ill-fitting jacket/blazer, comfort shoes, public radio logo’d canvas bag.
Seriously.
Anonymous K
I must be in a very different D.C. than you! I rarely see Uggs on anyone over about 22, though I do agree that for some inexplicable reason a lot of people seem to think leggings are pants. I very rarely see print skirts, especially not in November. I see non-profit logo bags as a second bag a lot during the week, but not so much on the weekends.
Anonymous
I see print skirts a lot around the office (mid law sharing office space with big law), but the leggings as pants thing seems especially endemic over near GW. Shudder. Sometimes they just leave off the leggings too.
Anonymous
You just described my wardrobe! Ha.
rebecca
I doubt it’ll be into the 30s – more like 40s and 50s. What fashionable types are wearing on weekends … maybe plan for toned-down New York? Honestly, it depends on what part of the city you’ll be in (and also what you’ll be doing). Wherever I am, though, I pretty much live in boots during the winters here. Bring a walkable pair or two and you’ll be fine.
Another Sarah
Can’t speak to DC weather in November, but nice skirt suit w/nylons is good for SCOTUS args. The security guards also ensure that everyone is dressed respectfully, so make sure to wear nicer shoes, your suit is clean and pressed, etc. Make sure you get there early to get a good seat! NB: They don’t allow ANY ELECTRONICS OF ANY KIND in the courtroom, and they’ll be checked/confiscated until you leave if you bring them in. So leave your cell phone/camera/iPod, etc in the hotel or your car.
KateL
A DC-ite here. The first weekend in November usually sees temperatures in the 40s – layers will be your friend. Certain neighborhoods have budding hipsters but AIMS is right the look is conservative/generic. As far as shoes – if you don’t wear running shoes you won’t stand out so much (but isn’t that standard advice for any city?). I would consider adding thin socks to your suitcase – socks are not my favorite thing but by November I am forced to break them out.
The restaurant scene has improved immensely here. If you are going to SCOTUS arguments and are a burger fan check out Good Stuff. It’s walking distance (even in heels) from the Court – the owner was on Top Chef. If you go to Smithsonian Museums on the Mall, walk up 7th St towards Penn Quarter for non-cafeteria meal options.
v
Though the cafeteria at the American Indian Museum is fantastic. Definitely the only place worth eating on the mall.
M
When exactly are you going to be in DC? I am traveling there for SCOTUS arg’s on Nov. 9! :)
Anonymous K
I agree with others; be sure to bring layers and to keep in mind that it is considerably cooler at morning and at night than during the day.
IMO, J. Crew is the “standard D.C. uniform.” On the weekends, you’ll see a lot of women with jeans tucked into boots, sweaters, blazers, etc. If you plan on going out to bars, etc. you will see a lot more variety, depending on which neighborhoods (and which specific bars) you plan on going to.
I second what Kate said about food. There is actually a lot of great food in D.C. these days. Good Stuff is good if you want to grab a quick bite. If you’re a big burger fan, you could actually make checking out all of the different D.C. burger joints a part of your trip. Jose Andres’ restaurants (mostly in Penn Quarter) are excellent as well. Minibar is the best, but it’s next to impossible to get a reservation. Zaytinya is quite good, as well. If you enjoy Indian flavors, Rasika is a great option. It’s kind of non-traditional Indian food and it’s one of my favorite restaurants in the city! Anyway, you didn’t ask about food, so I’ll stop, but there are some great options in D.C. now.
As far as SCOTUS arguments, a skirt suit is fine.
Have fun while you’re here!
CFM
Does anyone else think Zaytinya is so overrated? I’ve been twice and thought the hummus was good, and the food was certainly not bad, but I just didn’t love it the way everyone seems to. Anyone have suggestion on what to order for next time? I have friends visiting this weekend so more DC restaurant suggestions would be appreciated! I keep hearing about Rasika so I think that is on the list.
Anonymous K
I think my favorites are the grape leaves, the lamb kabobs, and the lamb chops. Perhaps it’s just not your taste. There are one or two restaurants I can think of off hand that I feel like everyone loves, but I think are just OK, so I know it can be frustrating to not understand why everyone loves something!
As far as suggestions, if you don’t mind going out to H Street, I love Granville Moore’s (known for their mussels). Proof is a favorite place for me to take visitors, especially if they like wine (though their food is quite good, too). If you’re in the mood for Italian, I’d suggest Acqua al 2 over near Eastern Market. (Their blueberry steak is amazing.) If your guests want to try Ethiopian, Ethiopic is my favorite, but I think Dukem is really good, as well (and is a little more metro-accessible, but Ethiopic isn’t too far from Union Station).
I know a lot of these are popular places that you may already know about, but they’re some of my favorites and I like to take out-of-towners to all of them (along with Rasika), so hopefully one of these sounds good to you!
CFM
Love Granville! Thanks for the suggestions!
Anonymous K
I’m a little delayed, but you’re welcome! I hope your friends had a good visit!
Anonymous
In the U Street area, check out Dukem (unanimously recommended by every Ethiopian I’ve ever asked for a recommendation) for Ethiopian food and U-topia for some southern fusion food or just good drinks and live jazz. In Chinatown, I personally like Jaleo (tapas) a lot more than Zaytinya.
Reluctantly in DC
I would add Oyamel to the list of restaurants – and be sure to get the guacamole, which they make at your table.
Anon L
Thanks to all of you who responded! I’m glad that it won’t be super cold and snowy while I’m there. As for the dining suggestions, they’ve given me a few more ideas for restaurants to check out. And yes, I will be hearing the Nov 9th args. Such a small world! =)
mm/dc
No, no, no, not super cold or snowy at all. It will likely be lows in the 40s, highs in the upper 50s or even the low 60s. DC has fantastic fall weather that often persists through early or even mid-November. If you’re lucky it will be bright and sunny, but be prepared for the possibility of rain. I don’t really agree with the AIMS/Reluctantly in DC generic/conservative characterizations (definitely don’t observe the locals walking around in cashmere twinsets-khakis ensembles, unless said locals are my mom’s age)–since you’re from the West Coast, I’d suggest wearing the sort of thing you’d wear if you were visiting San Francisco. Also, venture away from the downtown area in the evening/weekends; it will be kind of dead if you stay in the part of town (K Street, Foggy Bottom, McPherson Sq., Metro Center area) that mostly has office buildings and hotels. Head over to the Eastern Market, H Street, Adams Morgan, or Columbia Heights neighborhoods (as suggested above), or maybe even Georgetown or Penn Quarter.
AE
I grew up in the DC area and live in DC now. DC weather in early November varies a lot. Sometimes you need a wool coat in early November, and sometimes you can wear shirtsleeves outside on Thanksgiving. You should check the forecasts as your trip approaches, but you could probably get away with a trench.
For the SCOTUS argument, a skirt suit is fine. You would be more formal than many of the other observers (who may be local law students there to watch an argument as an assignment). You should avoid wearing anything bulky, because they squeeze the audience chairs right next to each other and you literally could be centimeters away from the person next to you. You should arrive early to line up outside the building and if there is a high-profile argument taking place- very early.
And, yes, DC does empty out on the weekends, because most people who are here working during the week do not live in the city itself. It also is emptier when Congress is not in session. For going out I suggest Georgetown. For a restaurant not already mentioned, I suggest this place near Dupont Circle.
http://www.tabardinn.com/restaurant
My fiance took me there on my birthday last month and I looooved it.
Enjoy your trip!
Me
For clothing ideas, check out CapHillStyle.com. The author is from DC and she often does 3 price points for outfit ideas.
NYC
Open thread, yay! Do you clever women have any tips for sleeping on wet hair and avoiding wacky lumps and bumps in the morning? I am about to switch to a longer commute and want to shower in the evenings, to make the morning routine faster. But I have straight, shoulder length hair and always wake up with funky stuff going on if I go to bed with it wet. Any tips would be appreciated!
Preggo Angie
Maybe a quick flat-iron routine in the morning?
K
The only way I’ve found to ‘fix’ this problem (and it’s not much of a solution) is that if I shower at night, my hair HAS to be dry before I go to bed. I’ll do a quick 10 minutes with the blowdryer and mist it lightly with hairspray before I go to sleep, otherwise, who knows what I will wake up with in the morning. I save the actual styling for the morning, which is normally just a once-over with a flatiron or 15 minutes with hot rollers/a curling iron.
Midori
I usually try to blowdry before bed, and at least get the roots dry, but short of that, a satin pillowcase does help some.
M in CA
This can work for me if I dry my hair at night with a blow-dryer and use a dry shampoo in the morning. I really like Unite 7 Seconds Dry shampoo and sometimes Osis matte powder, both available at beauty supply stores.
Miriam
Maybe try sleeping with it in a ponytail or loose bun. I have long wavy hair so I may be completely off when it comes to straight hair.
Shayna
Try to let it air dry a bit before going to bed and put it up in a scrunchie – not an elastic – on top of your head for extra body – tip: put your head all the way down to gather the hair and secure it.
fresh jd
I just got a haircut last weekend and asked my stylist how to manage my unruly hair. Her first rule was to never go to sleep with wet hair! Her second was to use a soft paddle brush. I’ve always done the opposite… maybe that’s why I have damaged hair =/
KM
Sometimes I put my hair up in large velcro rollers as soon as I get up (try spritzing your hair with a bit of water or hairspray beforehand. It doesn’t take very long if you use the jumbo ones. I blast them with the hair dryer for about 5 minutes and just let them set as I put on make-up, etc. I blast once more for another 2 minutes before taking them down then just brush my hair (sometimes with the aid of my hairdryer on a cool setting).
Tired Lawyer
This strikes me as brilliant! Thank you, thank you.
a-n-o-n
I have shoulder length hair and sleep on it wet (although not dripping wet) during the week. If I wake up with bumps/frizzy parts (and I usually do) I just use my fingers to put some water on the bumps – usually near the scalp – and then run a brush under the faucet then through my hair to smooth out the frizz. Then I add a little product and do a 2 minute blowdry with a brush. Voila.
One other thing – I usually put a towel over my pillow if my hair is wet because I’m afraid of moldy/mildewy pillow. Gross.
Anon
I used to do this a number of years ago and would wind my hair in a tight bun on top of my head and then just do a quick blow dry in morning (any frizz would be gone, but it would still be wet enough to not get any kinks). Now every other day I don’t wash my hair, and just use a detangling spray in mornings on my dry hair kinks and blow dry them smooth (then follow with dry shampoo). Using a spray (instead of just water) seems to be the trick for me. I’ve use Bumble & Bumble “Prep” currently and have also used Oscar Blandi Protein Mist for Restyling Hair. Both work great.
NYC
Thanks for all the awesome tips! Lots of great ideas to try out. I will report back. Sleeping in rollers would be so…retro! I love it, but think they would bug me too much (as a side sleeper).
Chicago K
Can you take advantage of sleeping with wet hair and set it in rollers before you go to bed? Lots of them are meant for just that, and they come in different sizes (larger for keeping hair smooth and flipped under, small for curls)…not sure if you have a sleeping partner to see you there in said rollers (funny picture – lol) but it might be a good way to wake up with styled hair!
Rach
I dry it out and then brush it straight about 15-30 minutes before I actually go to bed….then in the morning, I douse it with some sort of heat protectant spray/detangler spray and brush the lumps out of it, do a quick once-over with the blow-drier and voila! Looks good.
My hair is very fine and straight naturally though. Bumps for me in the right place just = much-needed volume. Other hair types might have a different experience.
Louise
Microfiber towels really do dry your hair much faster than cotton terrycloth. I use one after washing my hair and it cuts the air drying time in half.
We have a pack of 25 of the bright yellow ones from Costco that are sold as cleaning rags. They are perfectly clean right out of the bag, so I don’t hesitate to use one for my hair. They wash and dry in the regular laundry, too. You don’t have to buy a special “hair drying” one; any fuzzy microfiber works. Just avoid the smooth ones meant for cleaning computer screens as they are not nearly as absorbent.
TK1
Using a satin pillowcase helps stop your hair from tangling because there is no friction. So it may help in addition to using all the other methods mentioned.
L from Oz
I have hair so short that nothing will save it after I’ve slept on it, but my mother swears by satin pillowcases.
OVERweight Anon
Anyone read this article in the WSJ? http://blogs.wsj.com/juggle/2010/10/06/for-women-it-pays-to-be-very-thin/
The article cites a study that indicates that overweight women make less than normal/average weight women who make less than women who are, on avearage, 25 pounds thinner than average weight women.
As an overweight woman, I have questions. What is the assumption – that overweight women are lazy? Or not “with it”? Or is it that women who have had kids are more likely to be overweight (speaking as a generalization) and the motherhood penalty is confused with the overweight penalty? Or are thin women more hard-driving and ambitious and overweight women…aren’t?
If you add up the ~$16,000 per year underweight premium and the ~$14,000 per year overweight penalty, I consider that “serious” money. Wow!
Add in the gender discrimination – men who are overweight are not penalized – and I just get seriously depressed.
Preggo Angie
Did they take out actresses and models? I wonder if that screws up the curve much.
Preggo Angie
Nevermind… I actually read the article. Hmm.
anon - chi
I don’t doubt that there is some causation (i.e. being overweight is the cause of earning less) but there may also be a correlation issue. For example, if you compared the weight of every woman who works in my office and compared it to her pay, you would find that thinner women earn more. But if you looked at who those women actually are, you would see that nearly every female attorney is thin to average weight, whereas the female staff (secretaries) range from average to obese. Of course the lawyers make a lot more money than the staff, but that is not because they are thinner than the staff, as a whole.
anon - chi
I realized I didn’t answer the second half of the question – what’s behind the anti-fat prejudice. There are tons of negative things we as a society associate with overweight: lower class, less educated, lack of self-control, less intelligent, less ambitious or motivated. We tend to think positive things of attractive people and negative things of unattractive ones (not saying that overweight = unattractive, but to some people it probably does). Amazingly, this is even true of very small children – I remember reading a study not that long ago where little kids were given pictures of pairs of people, one fat and one thin, and asked which one they thought was smarter. Guess which one they overwhelmingly picked? The thin person.
Rach
This is true. But I have to say that we have a lot of shame and personal value attached to weight in western culture. I’m average sized and never realized how many issues I had around weight until I met my SO, who grew up on the other side of the globe in a culture where skin tone has the same social overtones that weight has here (not better, just different). They have the same “that’s prettier” reaction to someone who is fit, but there is just not all the baggage attached to weight for him that I – and everyone else – has. Pounds don’t mean lazy or slow or less intelligent, they just mean that you’re eating more or getting older or a little bigger. It’s sad that its so odd to be around that mindset, but it really highlights all of the non-weight stuff that we unconsciously attach to a few pounds, especially on a woman (and I’m including myself in that group).
OVERweight Anon
The study authors accounted for differences in education: “Control variables. For the most part, we controlled for the same or similar variables in Study 2 as in Study 1. Specifically, as in Study 1, we controlled for height, age, gender, marital status, children less than 16 years of age in the household, maternity leave, perceived health problems, smoking and drinking behavior,educational attainment, hours worked, self-esteem, tenure, job complexity, industry, and whether the individual worked in the civil service (public sector).” So your point is well-put, it is not correct.
In any event, I’m not concerned about secretaries versus lawyers, I’m interested in what my “penalty” is for being overweight versus what I would be paid if I was 25 pounds lighter than average.
dee
I thought this was an example of backwards causation – not so much that skinny people earn more, but people who earn more are skinnier because they can afford healthier food, fancy trainers, etc.
Shayna
This makes me incredibly angry – because I don’t doubt that it’s true. Overweight women are seen as sloppy, lazy, and incompetent – and it only takes missing out on one opportunity to be behind someone else and then the divide grows exponentially.
Add in the extra costs of being overweight – I read an article that even calculated the extra cost of gas, medical care, etc. – and you’re totally done for.
OVERweight Anon
Shayna, you were able to successfully lose weight. Have you noticed a difference in how you are treated in your career?
Anonymous
I lost a lot of weight too. I haven’t noticed a difference in how others treat me, but I’m more confident now. It’s easier to speak up in a meeting or stand up and make a presentation when you like how you look, you know? Plus it’s easier to find professional attire that fits well in my current size.
E Anon
I don’t doubt there is very serious bias toward overweight people, and I think that is without a doubt bad. At the same time, I think some of the same qualities that drive a woman to be hard working, diligent, and responsive to the expectations of others in her job (and therefore receive higher compensation) are similar to the qualities it often takes to keep up an exercise routine and discipline around eating. Tons and tons of exceptions, of course, but that’s something I’ve experienced myself (when I’m at a point in my life where I’m eating poorly and not exercising, it tends to go hand in hand with times I don’t have my act together at work, either — though I’ve also occasionally experienced the opposite, where I’m so busy at work I’ve found it hard to take care of myself).
E Anon
Hmm, I meant “bias against overweight people.”
Midori
Part of it could also be that people who are naturally skinnier tend to feel better about themselves because of feedback from an early age, and the self-confidence often propels them into higher-paying positions. It’s a vicious cycle.
I get the self-control arguments, and sometimes that applies, but for some people, weight is just harder to keep off than for others, so skinny does not always equal disciplined and fat does not always equal lazy and bad eater. I’m fairly thin, but it’s not by any virtue of my own! I just got a faster metabolism and different body shape in my genes than the average girl.
E Anon
100% agree, and I absolutely would not look at someone thin and (consciously) think they were more disciplined than someone heavier. But I do think there’s some degree of correlation in some people – particularly in me (my weight has been all over the map, more than once unfortunately, and the standard “eat less, exercise more” routine works like a charm for me). Does this account for all or even most of the difference in the study? No, I don’t believe that for a second.
Anonymous K
My immediate thought was also that thinner women, particularly if they have been thin their whole lives, are more likely to have grown up with more confidence and thus are more likely to be more confident in their abilities at work, more assertive, etc. I think it’s odd that so many people leap to the assumption that this is a causational relationship.
OVERweight Anon
After re-reading the article, it’s clear that the study authors likely believe it’s causational, or so it appears.
K
That’s the point that Above the Law makes about the article (I would post the link, but every time I do that my posts screw up — sorry!!!). I don’t have enough of a sociology background to buy the argument, but I can kind of see it: Society gives positive reinforcement to women who look a certain way, and that positive reinforcement results in more confidence/assertiveness/self-assuredness that gets rewarded at work. I agree with those who’ve said it’s disturbing.
Rachel
I agree with this. Had some thyroid failure issues for about 4 years that made me tired and prone to gain weight no matter what. Going from underweight to slightly overweight was SHOCKING. The level of respect that you can command from a room drops exponentially. I had to start playing up my age, lowering my voice, and using all of the other tricks on the book – just being confident, dressing well, and doing good work got me nowhere anymore. Thankfully the issue is better and I’m improving – but it was horribly depressing and I can see how living in that type of environment constantly would cause one to become demoralized and stop pushing for the respect and recognition that you don’t know you can get if you haven’t gotten it before.
OVERweight Anon
Rachel, your experience confirms my fears. Other than a lack of self-confidence (if in fact it did affect you that way) or dressing poorly (and I’m not saying that you did) you were a n=1 example of the result of being overweight.
houda
I second the part of skinnier people feeling better in their skin because of early positive feedback.
As Rach said there are other parts of the globe where such positive feedback is associated with skin color (I come from a place where this is somewhat of an unspoken rule) and definitely, people who are naturally closer to the “ideal” model be it skin tone or weight or specific proportions tend to get more attention as children and be more self confident as they get more chances of becoming assertive and successful.
There are always exceptions but overall this is what I noticed in my country
govvie girl
There are exceptions to everything but people who earn more tend to be more educated, and being more educated comes from self-discipline, focus, and an increased desire to achieve more intellectually. A person without that drive and focus will probably lack it in other areas of life also, including eating and exercise. Is this nice to say? No, but it would seem that the same things that lead many folks (not all) to be overweight are the same that lead them to earn less; vice-versa for slim and better paid. I think much of it is “socioeconomic” or peer-influenced, also. Many people who are in the college-bound or -educated, professional circles are in the “under 25 BMI” range, whereas many in less-educated circles are heavier (less access to healthier options…). Same thing with smoking. Both pose health issues. For better or worse, we have a tendency to want to fit in.
anony
I find it interesting that there is bias/discrimination against overweight people. I recall hearing numerous times that 60% of adults in America are overweight. How can the minority (thin people) discriminate against the majority?
v
Well, two things really:
1) People right around the overweight line probably don’t appear visibly overweight and may not have been included in the study; the majority of adults aren’t “obese.”
2) If the numerical minority holds positions of power they can discriminate against the numerical majority all they want; this isn’t uncommon in history.
cbackson
I suspect that were it to be studied, they’d find that overweight people themselves hold the same prejudices against the overweight as do thinner people. It’s pretty common for targets of bias to internalize that bias.
v
person without that drive and focus will probably lack it in other areas of life also, including eating and exercise. Is this nice to say? No, but it would seem that the same things that lead many folks (not all) to be overweight are the same that lead them to earn less; vice-versa for slim and better paid. I think much of it is “socioeconomic” or peer-influenced, also.
::eyeroll:: I think it’s cute how quickly you managed to go from biased, prejudiced tropes about fat people to biased, prejudiced tropes about poor people. Good work.
OVERweight Anon
This.
Anonymous
I’m a bit overweight, too. I think that less educated and blue collar women tend to be more likely to be overweight than professional women, who have access to gyms, yoga classes, spas, organic food, etc. The motherhood theory also makes sense. I’d be interested in a study that compared women within the same professional category.
OVERweight Anon
The study did compare women within the same professional category: “Control variables. For the most part, we controlled for the same or similar variables in Study 2 as in Study 1. Specifically, as in Study 1, we controlled for height, age, gender, marital status, children less than 16 years of age in the household, maternity leave, perceived health problems, smoking and drinking behavior,
educational attainment, hours worked, self-esteem, tenure, job complexity, industry, and whether the individual worked in the civil service (public sector).”
Again, I am referring mainly to professional women, not comparing executives with secretaries. I’m an executive in the finance industry with a graduate degree. I work out (not enough given the 50+ hours of work/week), practice yoga, eat a lot of high-quality and/or organic food (too much food, of course), and go to the spa, although not as often as I’d like. I could afford a trainer and a nutritionist.
Anonymous
Hmm, I guess I didn’t read that closely. In my personal experience, as I posted above, I found that I’m more confident at a smaller size and I also can dress better because it’s easier to find affordable professional attire that fits. I think that confidence goes a long way toward gaining the respect of my coworkers. When I was a size 18 I just didn’t really like people to look at me; now as a size 12 I’m comfortable standing up in front of a crowd.
A
I have a different perspective.
Apparently in the business world, the ideal, most-highly-paid woman employee is one who is attractive but not beautiful, well-dressed but not too well-dressed, thin, under 45 and has no kids. Well, not all of us are going to be that person. I’d say pretty few of us are, actually. And, the “universal truth” is also apparently not universally true. If you look at the Forbes List of the 100 most powerful women in business every year, you will see some that fit the thin/attractive/under 45 model. But you’ll also see people that do not. And think about Meg Whitman, formerly of eBay, now running for governor in California. I don’t think she was ever the “ideal” but she did pretty darn well for herself.
I also try not to live my life comparing what I have to what others have. I am who I am, I have what I have based on my work and my ambitions, which are frankly not very lofty. I have a wonderful husband and two great kids, and we have a nice home and live a comfortable life. There will always be people who have more than we do, and there are a hell of a lot more people who have less. I actually think that as an overweight (but always working on it) mom I have done pretty well for myself in the workplace. I make a nice amount of money and have gotten to a level of responsibility I feel comfortable with. I have work/life balance and that is more important to me than money. I can’t spend a lot of time getting angsty about the fact that somewhere, some thin, childless person doing my same job is making more money than me. I really, really hope that after the economic and housing crashes of the last two years, we will all start thinking in a different way: instead of worrying about “do I have more,” why not worry about “do I have enough?” If all of us focused on having “enough” rather than having “more,” the world would be a better place.
One thing I have learned in reading coverage of job loss in the recession is that there is no equity in how “business” thinks about employees. Think about all the people out there who are 50+ and can’t get hired simply because they are “old.” I don’t think 50 is old! People who are 50+ still have a lot to offer the workforce, and I don’t think any of us, in our wildest dreams, contemplate being unemployable at 50. That is way too early to retire for most, especially if you love working. Yet those people are being cast out of the workforce through no fault of their own. And it could happen to any one of us when we reach that age. And also think about people who are considered conventionally “unattractive,” even if they are thinner. There’s a bias against them too, and that is also something people cannot generally control. Same goes for people who are disabled. There are many people out there who are in wheelchairs, or need vision or hearing assistance, but could still do a job very well – but they don’t get hired because of the prejudices of others. It’s technically illegal, but it happens all the time. And there’s still plenty of racism out there too! Is any of this – weight prejudice, racism, ageism, looksism, discrimination against the disabled – morally right? No. Should we all stand up against it? Yes. Is there anything we can do about people who continue to reinforce these old, tired stereotypes? I don’t know. Past educating them, maybe not.
My husband and I have decided that in order not to be victims to the changing whims of the business workplace, the only way we can have control over our own destiny is to start our own business, and we’re working towards that now. My boss, and many of her friends, are business owners and are now women in their 50s who have no fear of losing their jobs if they “look old” or gain weight or take time off to take their kids to college, because they are the bosses! And they hire who they want to hire.
I am not going to worry about whether or not I conform to some ideal appearance set by a bunch of people I don’t know and don’t want to work for. I did my time in corporate America and it was more awful than I had even imagined, for reasons that have nothing to do with my appearance. I work in a small consulting firm now and I am happy. I have a good life, better than 95 percent of the rest of the country and 99 percent of the world. I have enough. I try to do what I can to fight inequities where I see them. But frankly, anyone expecting the larger business establishment to get with the program and stop discriminating is probably spitting into the wind. It’s been 50 years since the civil rights movement and 35 years since the women’s movement and most places still haven’t caught up.
FinanceGal
Fantastic reply, and a very healthy perspective. Cheers to realizing you have ‘enough’!
K
Hey Corporettes – what words of wisdom/advice/thoughts get you through tough personal or professional times? Or what do you do to cope when you have a rough week/month/year?
The last two years have been pretty awful for me, with terrible things happening seemingly one after another. I’m trying to keep an upbeat, positive attitude but honestly, some days it seems like things will never get better.
Or, if anyone just wants to share a story of how their life completely fell apart and now they’re in a much happier, better place, that would help too. :)
Anon1
Not too much to add wisdom-wise, but I wanted to share what’s helped me recently. I was on long-weekend vacation with my husband last month and on the last day, I realized how unhappy I was in my job and just broke down. (It’s been a *very* rough 12 months for me: major surgery, trying to get pregnant for over a year, finally getting pregnant, having a missed miscarriage at 11 weeks, not loving my job, etc.).
My husband let me cry on his shoulder at first, and then gave me tough love. He said that if I was that unhappy in my job, that I need to do what I can control to change that. Since then, I’ve been in contact with several people about other job openings and have taken active steps in my current job to avoid the things I hate so much. It’s small steps (and in this economy, I know it could be a long while before I actually change employers), but the act of taking control has helped beyond words. Instead of feeling like horrible things keep happening to me, I’m taking control of things one step at a time.
My advice? Start with something small that you know you can do. For me, it was emailing contacts at other employers – something I’ve been putting off for months. I used some free time to work on (work) projects that I’ve been avoiding. Those don’t hang over my head the minute I walk in to my office each morning anymore.
And when you have a day where it feels like you just want to crawl in bed? Don’t underestimate the power of a good bottle of red wine…
Anon
K- sorry its been a tough couple years. 2010 wasn’t so kind to me, but its turning around thanks to running and therapy. Serious relationship ended, job ended, therapy intially brought some old serious issues to the surface so I felt that I was reliving these issues all over…
but I started running and experienced the runners high…so I knew I could count on that. And the new job that I got is looking to be amazing and so much better than the old with some exciting bonuses. Relationship situation still isn’t “happy”, but dating again and recognizing there are interesting people out there….plus my ex and I have gotten to a place where we can share about our experiences with each other in a way that no one else really can share…so maybe I can get some insight that I wouldn’t otherwise have…I can’t say everything is perfect. There are still things that are painful going on. But where I am now versus where I was 10-11 mos ago is so much better…it didn’t happen without work though.
Anon too
*Hugs* to you K. I’ve been there. For a few years, it felt like every decision I made was just wrong. This covered everything in my life, ranging from a then-new job to a then-new boyfriend to my then-new blonde hair coloring. Things just felt more and more wrong: I hated my job more and more, bf’s career was going backwards, both my cats died within 1 year of each other, I suffered a pretty bad back injury. Then, one day: I got fired. Or, laid off, or let go, whatever you want to call it. What surprised me was that losing my job was the first thing that actually went right in my life in years. That’s when my life started to turn around for the better. I got out of the field I was working in, and took a job that I actually really like; had time to develop a hobby for the first time in my adult life; went back to my favorite hair color; and, finally, ended the relationship with the bf.
My point in sharing this is: you never know when, or how, change is going to come. Sometimes you will bring it about yourself, sometimes it will be forced upon you when you don’t think you’re ready. Being unhappy sucks. Having bad things happen to you SUCKS. But know that you will get through it, even if the way you get through it doesn’t look like what you thought it would.
Looking back, I realize that I was depressed during those years but just didn’t realize it. I wish someone had recommended antidepressants to me, because I think they can help a lot with coping, dealing with everyday tasks, etc.
Hang in there K! We’re all here for you. :)
North Shore
I’ve been at my job for 15 years now, so I’ve had plenty of time for spectacular failures. I remember those really low times when I wanted to quit, when I dreaded going with work, when I thought I couldn’t handle it. Interestingly, now those times give me strength. If a judge hates me and screams at me, I remember the one who was even worse. If opposing counsel is a huge jerk and threatening me with sanctions, I think of the other times I survived something similar. But the first few times I went through such stressful situations, I did not have the experience to give me perspective. It was much harder back then. So, I guess I’d say . . . the things that suck now will (hopefully) make you a stronger person in the future, and someday these bad times will give you confidence.
surrounded by lawyers
So true. This is why I look forward to getting older. The more I experience, the better I can handle things–but I am still a mess more often than is called for.
People my parents’ age are soooo helpful to talk to because they just know more than I do.
Anonymous
I play the Wilco song Nothing’severgonnastandinmyway (Again), really, really loud. It’s a great quick pick-me-up.
I had a pretty rotten year job hunting also, and a real lifesaver was volunteering. It’s much harder to feel bad about your situation when you spend time with people who are really, really struggling. Plus, you feel like you’re doing something productive and beneficial to the world, which you gotta get somewhere (if you’re not getting it at work).
And yes, things are much better for me now. Life is cyclical- a down has to be followed by an up at some point, right?
Been there, done that...
I’ve had a few rough patches in my life, and I’m going through one right now. The common thread that got me through them (and is helping me survive this one)? Being nice to myself. Taking time to do something for me keeps me sane. Be it an afternoon getting a mani-pedi or a facial or dinner out with my best friend. Having something to look forward to helps too. Tomorrow I’m leaving my 3 year old with daddy, and I’m going to yoga and I’m getting my hair cut. After that, I’m going to an outlet mall to hopefully find a new pair of jeans (two out of my 3 pairs have developed holes in the knees this week.) I’m also hoping to find a great dress to wear out to dinner as we celebrate our 4th wedding anniversary next weekend. (3 year old going to stay with grandparents next weekend!)
If you aren’t going to take the time to be nice to yourself, no one else will. Also, remember that this to shall pass.
Been there, done that...
That should read “This too shall pass.”
Diva452
You can look at it this way……when you are on a plane and they go thru the safety instructions and they have you put on the mask first before giving it to someone else….meaning…..you can’t take care of anyone else unless you take care of yourself first.
Ang
I’ve been waiting for open thread all week! Do we have any Corporettes who are PMPs or CAPMs? I am ready to begin studying for the CAPM exam and am looking to hear what others suggest about prepping. Specifically, what are the best books, guides, courses, etc to use to study and prep, and how long should I expect to spend studying (Weeks? Months? More? Please don’t say it’s more! LOL!) Any advice or tips appreciated. Thanks!
Anon in NC
Are you referring to Project Mgt PMP? My husband recently completed – you can ask your question and can send to him if you like?
Anon
Hi Ang,
I was studying for the PMP but my company changed my job title so I am no longer a PM and just a generic “consultant” so they don’t want me to get the certification. *rolls eyes*
I might go for it anyway, but I am not sure they will sign off on my PM work as being PM work now that they call it consulting…
Have you taken any continuing ed classes that focus on the PMP or PMBOK methodology? Do you go to PMI meeting or study groups? I found all of those helpful. But like I said, I didn’t actually take the exam so I can’t speak to that part…but most of the people in my classes did.
I would definitely join PMI and try out some of the study groups! And I believe you will need to take CE classes to keep your certification, so it may not hurt to take one as an overview. And from those I’ve heard take and pass…they did study for months. Good luck!!!
Ang
Thank you for the responses.
In July I took a course through PMI, but I wasn’t terribly pleased with it. It did serve the purpose of helping me to acquire the necessary PDUs to sit for the exam, though. I’m a member of PMI so I think I’ll see if I can find a study group through them, as you suggested. I’ll also check out some of the discussion boards there to see what others suggest as the standard study methods.
Some of my frustration stems from the fact that I sometimes feel like PMI is set up strictly to sell me things, so I was hoping to get some opinions about what books, courses, etc., are actually the most helpful.
Anyway, just wanted to check with the Corporettes first, since I “know” all of you and trust your opinions. Thanks again!
Me
For what purposes do you use LinkedIn? I ask because I work PT (very PT, like 20 hrs/month) at a small law firm. The firm has asked me to hyperlink the firm website to my LinkedIn profile — the linking will go both ways (A web link, not just a resume listing), as well as shorten my LI URL, change my LI photo, and edit my LI profile somewhat.
I’m thinking that this crosses a small line, from “LinkedIn is for my networking/promoting me” to “LI is promoting the firm”.
Since I do so few hours at the firm, this request irks me. If anything, I’d use LI to get a different job! Thoughts?
jcb
That is an odd request, and it would irk me, too. Part-time or not. I probably wouldn’t do it. The firm has its own website, the LI profile is yours.
kc
I don’t think asking you to link your Linkedin page to your firm bio is an odd request. My firm does that. I think that even if you aren’t planning to stay at the firm forever, you’re always marketing yourself when you market the firm and vice versa. Plus, the Linkedin page is probably more updated than your firm bio will be, at least for long. On that point, there was this post on ATL pointing out how static those bios are. You can keep things more current by linking to a profile you can update when you have new successes to share. That serves the purpose of making you more attractive to either potential clients or potential employers.
http://abovethelaw.com/2010/10/whats-wrong-with-your-law-firm-bio/
On the other hand, if the firm gets too picky about exactly what you write on your own profile, that strikes me as going too far.
Rachel
I’d say it depends on the firm / work environment. If you’re in a big firm with an up-or-out partner track, then it’s probably not going to be detrimental if your LI profile links them but still shows that you’re open to hear from recruiters, etc. Of course, if you’re going for a partnership, that might hurt you.
If you’re in a small firm, I could see where it might really be an issue, since your immediate boss is more likely to take the time to look at your page, and more likely to take any signs of disloyalty personally.
I’d say its a personal call. (And I, personally, wouldn’t do it.)
Mary
Makeup question:
Is it true that shimmery eyeshadow is unprofessional? All my eyeshadows seem to be shiny-ish pink/gold/tan things from Clinique (which I get for “free” once I spend $21.50 or whatever). I like them and I think they’re flattering, but should I be looking for a solid color instead?
If I’m not being clear enough, I mean that I own colors like the ones shown here: http://www.clinique.com/product/CATEGORY4898/PROD6984/Makeup/Eye_Shadows/index.tmpl
But maybe I need to stop wearing them for work and switch to ones like these?
Mary
Oops. Couldn’t even find (at least on Clinique’s site) more matte eyeshadows. Then I failed to delete the last sentence. But that is what I meant: is matte mandatory?
Anon
I wear shimmery all. the. time. I don’t like matte eyeshadow on me — it ends up look crepe-y and getting crease-y. I’m young, but no one has ever commented on it looking unpr0fessional.
I guess I should clarify — I’m not talking glitter, just shimmery golds, neutrals and pinks. For reference, I love Nars multiple and Bobbi Brown shimmer brick.
nonA
Glitter is different than shimmer – no glitter at work. I prefer matte, but that has more to do with my skin tone/coloring than anything else.
Do you use it on your lower lids, or all over? I’ve generally heard everything is OK (to a point) up to the crease, but there shouldn’t be much more than simple matte, close-to-skin-tone eyeshdaow on the area above the crease.
AIMS
Shimmery is okay if it;s subtle. All your eye shadow at work should be relatively conservative. I think if an average someone sees you & then can say what color eye shadow you were wearing, you’re off the mark. Otherwise you’re okay.
I worked with a woman who matches her eye shadow — shimmery and not — to her outfits & jewelry. That was bad. The clinique gift with purchase shadows are generally not in that territory.
Mary
I do below the crease, and then a little bit above, maybe the width of an eyeshadow brush? (I have very high eyebrows, I think, so there’s a lot of space above the crease.) I don’t usually put eyeshadow all the way up to the brow, or apply multiple shades. Just a swipe below and above the crease. (I don’t actually wear it that often, but it occurred to me today because I put on makeup today since I had a few extra minutes in the morning.)
Anon2
Mary – I use shimmery eyashadow instead of matte because it works better with my skin (matte can look crepey and creases more). I wear neutral earth tones and have seen other women at work with shimmer eyeshadow. Would avoid anything too bright though – I think it’s ok if you keep it relatively natural looking.
Whitney
I love this eye shadow color! It isn’t very noticeable on me, but I love the small effect it has. I usually don’t wear it to work because I don’t want to take the extra time in the morning to put it on. I don’t see anything wrong with wearing something like this to work, because it doesn’t look unprofessional or like you are going to a club.
Rachel
I’ve seen these on. I think shimmer in neutrals can look professional. A shimmer in peacock blue might be another story.
Glitter, of course, is best for Hannah Montana concerts in my opinion. Although I’m sure there are exceptions.
Diva452
It’s fine as long as you don’t over do it. No colors, just neutrals and you will be fine. Also a touch of loose powder will tone down the shine also.
E Anon
Another LinkedIn question!
Do you say on your LinkedIn profile that you’re interested in being contacted about job opportunities and things in that vein? I didn’t check that box initially because I was worried my employer would see it and view it negatively, but I’ve also heard that some recruiters/headhunters are sensitive to whether the box is checked (and won’t contact you if it’s not) and now I’m concerned I’ll be missing out on opportunities. Thoughts?
ck1
anecdotal: i don’t have it checked and ive still been contacted by recruiters. i didnt check it for the same reason as you… they still found a way to call my company’s main number (caller didn’t disclose that he was a recruiter, obviously).
Dink
I checked the box. And when I liked to my boss, I saw that she had to. Can you look at profiles for other people in your company and see how common it is?
anotheranon
I have the box checked back from when I first set up the profile and was looking. If someone called me on it now, I’d say something along the lines of “oh… that was from before and never bothered changing it”. Which is true. Though it might come off sounding fake.
Traveling to NM
Any Corporettes in Albuquerque? I’m heading there this weekend for the Balloon Fest and would love to get together with some fellow ‘ettes. Or, if you have any tips on what to do when I’m there, I’d love to hear them. Thanks!
Anon2
I’m not in ABQ now, but I was there last weekend. If you’re visiting the balloon fiesta, a few travel/parking tips. Although the website tells you to park in the lot and take the shuttle, this is really slow on the weekends (esp. on opening day when I went). I’m talking like 1.5 hours in line for the shuttle. If possible, have someone take second street to alameda and drop you off there for a 10 minute walk to the gate. Or if you’re not above going outside the norm, drive to the same area and park in a neighborhood and walk/bike in. If not, I’d go for one of the less popular park and ride locations and get there early.
I’m not trying to discourage you from going because it was completely awesome when I got there!! Have fun!!
Anon2
Also, if you haven’t been to Albuquerque before, you have to go to Keva Juice. Best smoothie in the country!
Traveling to NM
Thanks for the tips — especially about parking!! I’m planning on going really early both mornings for the Mass Ascension and I’m on my own, so it looks like I’ll have to do the park-and-walk thing rather than the shuttle.
I’ll check out Keva Juice too. Thanks!
ES
I love the balloon festival! I used to go to Albuquerque yearly (family lived there) and the balloon festival is one of my favorite things. Be sure to layer – it was FREEZING last year at the morning mass ascension.
Around Albuquerque:
Be sure to check out Old Town – the Candy Lady makes a famous peanut butter crunch. There isn’t a lot “to-do” per se, but wandering around looking at galleries is amazing, and you get much more reasonable prices than you would in Santa Fe, for example. Also if you can get to one of the pueblos (no idea which ones are around, I was young when I went to the ones around there), I highly recommend it.
In terms of food, New Mexican food is NOT mexican food. So things might be a littler different than expected when going to one of the restaurants around Old Town. That doesn’t mean it’s not delicious – be sure to try the green chile sauce – but it is different. Also, get sopapillas. They’re fry bread that you typically fill with honey as either a dessert or side. Ah, memories of sopapillas…..
dee
I wanted to share a tip with my fellow big-busted ladies. I always have problems with my button-down shirts gaping and recently I decided to get all my shirts sewn up the middle so that this is no longer an issue. If you have similar problems I strongly suggest this. My tailor did it for free (I go to him all the time and I still tipped him $1 for each shirt). The only thing you have to check is that you can get the shirt on over your head with all the buttons buttoned (if you leave the top 1 or 2 unbuttoned normally like I do it shouldn’t be an issue). Obviously the shirt won’t be a button-down anymore, but I don’t see any downside to this. The look is much more polished and I’m no longer distracted every two seconds with thinking about whether my bra is showing.
Casey
I am busty and like button-downs. My solution is to have snaps installed between the buttons that span my bust. It’s worked for me thus far and I don’t think it’s noticeable. But I do think I’m being overcharged. In NYC, tailors have charged me between $6 and $9 per snap. (Or maybe I am cheap.) I wish I could sew myself, but I am too lazy to learn.
Louise
I’m not busty, but this is an awesome idea. Sometimes the buttons are just badly placed on a button down blouse and gap no matter how much cargo is under the placket. Even we small-chested gals don’t want to be showing the goods.
Thanks for the tip!
JessC
I really like this idea. I’m pretty handy with a needle and thread myself. I might test-try this on one of my shirts (one of the shirts I don’t care about that much, just in case ;) ).
ChickintheStix
Pregnant?! Nearly 4 months along. I hope you laugh, but I’ve been a little busy raising a young family and in trials, and I DIDN’T NOTICE. I thought my tight suits and general lethargy were just the result of too many meals on the road. Feeling like a total dope, and I’m in a bit of a panic about not planning any of this. I have two toddlers at home, a relatively busy rural practice that keeps me traveling all over creation, and a trial schedule that reads like a pretty girl’s dance card. Do you have a paper bag I can breathe into for a few minutes/days? This is a blessing disguised as a problem, I know. But, thanks for your support.
JJ
Silver lining: at least you found out at four months and won’t be on a TLC show?
Seriously – it’s a blessing and I hope you have a happy and healthy 5 more months!
Another Sarah
BTW, that show is the scariest show in TV, hands down. Scarier than Criminal Minds, all those ghost-hunting shows, and those specials on psychotic ax-murderers who happen to know where you live. *shudder* :-)
North Shore
Outstanding! Congratulations. The first 3 months suck anyway, so you are discovering your pregnancy at just the right time.
Midori
((Hugs)) WOW! Well, one bright side is that you’re through the horrid first trimester? You get major props in my book for being able to soldier through it like that–I was a total mess and good for absolutely nothing at work in my first trimester.
If you can, try to take a little breather to absorb this? Get someone to keep the two toddlers, even if it’s just for an evening or two, and talk it through with SO over a nice meal. For me, the scariest things are the “big unknowns.” Once I talk through the scenario and realize it can work and may, in fact, be really exciting, it’s easier to move forward.
fresh jd
I don’t have kids, but the first thing I’d worry about is whether I’d been drinking during those 4 months. I’d just go to a doctor stat and then buckle down and enjoy the ride! Congrats and be joyous!
Midori
Meh. I drank some during early pregnancy because I didn’t know, and everything was fine. The doctor told me to chill out about it. While they aren’t supposed to recommend drinking at all, in reality you probably have to drink quite a lot for it to be a real problem. My glass or two of wine with dinner = probably fine. Binge drinking = probably not fine. What’s done is done, gotta move forward now.
ceb
There was in interesting article in my local paper yesterday summarizing a study that showed a decrease in hyperactivity and a slight increase in cognitive skills in children whose mothers drank **lightly** (one or two drinks a week) while pregnant. Interesting stuff . . .
http://blogs.chron.com/momhouston/2010/10/study_light_drinking_during_pr_1.html
Midori
What’s done is done, gotta move forward now.
Midori
Oh, sorry, I miss-posted. That’s pretty interesting! My theory is relaxed and happy mama is best for mama, best for baby!
Chicago K
That’s really interesting. While I don’t advocate for drinking in pregnancy, I have read (and believe) that it’s mainly here that we are so uptight about it. Basically Americans are all or nothing…Doctors can’t tell their patients it’s fine to have a glass of wine occasionally because some may read that as it’s ok to down a bottle a day.
Congrats on your pregnancy!! You’ll be looking back in 20 years and not being able to imagine your life without your soon to be darling #3!
Suze
Yeah, what’s done is done. I and almost everyone I know had downed three rounds of margaritas, a bottle of champagne or a couple of stiff martinis the week before we found out we were pregnant, and (a) dr. always says, chill, don’t worry and (b) the kids are all fine. When I was in the last trimester with twins, my doc actually prescribed 4 oz of red wine in the evening to counteract contractions/premature labor – it worked, the twins cooked to 36 weeks, and they are fine. So don’t sweat an alcohol transgression….
Oh, and congratulations! Three’s a handful but every now and then you see the three of them doing things together and it’s like they are their own little ‘life team’ – I love that! Be well and good luck on the next 5 months.
Anon
My old-school OB also told me to drink a half-glass of wine if I felt strong preterm contractions and I did it a couple of times, and sure enough the contractions stopped. (I was at high risk for preterm labor.) My OB was trained as a perinatologist, had delivered over 25,000 babies and had practiced in Europe and Asia, and took a very dim view of the total alcohol prohibition in the U.S. He said the only FAS babies he had delivered in 35 years of delivering babies were the ones who were born to alcoholics, women that he knew drank more than two drinks daily the entire pregnancy, and were in fact drunk when they came in the delivery room. There are actually a fair number of studies saying what he told me – that FAS really only happens with chronic, heavy drinking. I am not advocating anyone drink in pregnancy, but in the OP’s case, if she’s already 4 months along, there’s no undoing what’s done and I don’t think she should worry.
Connie
Agreed. Plus, what’s the doctor going to do at this point?
It’s okay to do most things while you’re pregnant so long as you do them in moderation. I am assuming a litigatrix with several children doesn’t imbibe excessively and/or would know to think about this once she realized she was pregnant.
Fiona
Yesterday someone mentioned that we should talk about REAL ESTATE! Have any of you done a major home renovation? My situation is this: my fiance and I are looking to buy our first home. We currently rent in a neighborhood that we LOVE, but inventory is quite low in this neighborhood right now. A house recently came on the market that needs a TON of work. It’s priced about $150,000 less than comparables on the same street that have been renovated, and it probably needs about $75,000 in renovations (new kitchen, new bathroom, rip up the carpets and restore the hardwood, interior and exterior painting). In all other ways (location, size, “bones”, character) it’s exactly what we’ve been looking for.
Would we be insane to get into renovations like this, as first-time home buyers? We would hire contractors to do the work, but I’m still wondering if this would be a disaster. I am a lawyer and he is a VP at a media company, so we’re pretty busy. But we do live right across the street from the property right now and could keep an eye on things.
I’d love any insight, pro and con!
E Anon
Assuming finances and everything else are in order, I say go for it! (The type of person who only has cash for the minimum down payment generally wouldn’t be able to buy something like this because it can be difficult to get financing for the renovations.) You can make it exactly how you want it, and it sounds like you’d be getting a good deal if your estimate for how much work it needs proves roughly accurate! It’s never easy overseeing your first major home renovation project, but that shouldn’t have much to do with this being your first (as opposed to second or third) owned home. Good luck!
Midori
Can’t see a down-side here. If you have a place to stay that isn’t a construction zone and aren’t in a big hurry, and if you’re sure the place is structurally solid (that’s where you can get burned!), go for it! Most people don’t have the luxury of time to customize like that before they move in.
lk
If you go into it assuming at least 15% more (time and cost) than estimated, you won’t be disappointed when it evitably goes over on both. Sounds like a good opportunity – the renovations you mentioned are not *that* huge, and will definately increase the value of the home. This doesn’t sound crazy to me.
Anon
We bought a house last year that was built in ’74. What I’ve realized in the search for a house is that most houses need some work to make them your own. If it’s the house you want, then I would go for it. It’s just a matter of how much work, how much $$, and what you are willing to live with. My house has the original kitchen and baths with painted cabinets and a few updates. We’re taking our renovations in stages. This year we put in Central AC and we’re getting quotes right now for one of our bathrooms. In the spring, we’ll probably have to do siding and windows. The kitchen renovations will have to wait a few years.
I also recommend living in a house before doing major renovations if possible. The plans my hubby and I had for the kitchen before we moved in are totally different than what we want now. We’re definitley going to knock down some walls. ;-)
Good luck!
Anon
Go for it–the painting and floors are probably something you can do yourself, if you’re so inclined. The kitchen & baths are probably for die-hard DIY-ers, but you guys can probably afford a contractor to do it. Plus, contractors are slow these days and can be had for cheap!
Anonymous
Congrats! You’ll make it…[insert paper bag]
brown eyes and sore muscles
We do our own renovation work and have two professional jobs … so I know the work standard I produce. Looking at work done by others, I would say definately stay across the street. Visit and check often and unexpectedly.
Put in the contract all sorts of things. Due dates, penalty/reward for meeting them. Who is buying what materials? If you are sussing out better deals o n line for appliances, lights, tile, wallpaper, etc., who is to receive it and ensure it’s in acceptable condition? Who is going to be responsible for installing those things? Even hanging your wall/window treatments. Who is responsible for pulling all the permits with the city and getting the ok from the city and neighborhood group about having the dumpster, portapotty, and inspections for all of the various work the trades are doing? Usually plumbing and electrical changes require permits, approval, and inspections when the work is underway and then completed.
Specify the payment schedule. X% at such point, X% at such point, X% at end when my punch list is completed to my satisfaction.
Warranty of course on labor. What about on things I provide for the builder to install?
Do you need to have the structural part and your changes certified by an engineer or architect? If it’s more than cosmetic, I would before you start them off on doing something. You want the pros ensuring that the bones aren’t compromised. Designers are famous for wanting things changed and not attending to the structural loads etc.
Ask for subs to be listed in the contract and held to the same sort of insurance, workman’s comp, schedule etc.
Specify the precise stuff you want. If it is a certain brand, eco friendly, mold and water resistant sheetrock, etc.
You’re probably an attorney or familiar with some, more data in the contract is better.
My friends who have had homes built or renovated for themselves have told me tales relating to the above nightmares.
Again, as one who actually does all of sweating, it is not, and should not, be like you see on tv shows. The exception is the quality of work on the HGTVCanada show “Holmes on Homes.” If you can bone up on his work or topics in “This Old House” or “Norm Ambrams” you’ll know what to expect and how to inspect work done. Many builders and contractors simply cover up and/or hide the problems from you. Once it’s behind the sheetrock, you don’t know about it. That also goes for electrical wiring…all “junction” boxes should be accessible. It’s a technicality.
I say go for it, but be informed! Our friends have made every mistake in the book in getting a house built … my tongue is sore and has holes in it. They are happy, except that the return vent for the ac couldn’t go anywhere but in the ceiling of the hallway. Really? When they started desigining the house it was a blank page. So what went wrong to make that happen? No one will ever know.
If you have some swing in your schedules, try to be on site when the inspections are done and ask questions.
If you buy things yourselves, be sure you are clear on measurements and you’ve given them to the builder etc. Again, stories I’ve heard.
Best wishes – I hope it’s all you dream it can be! :)
Anon
As a corporette w/ a construction background, I have to say that “brown eye’s” advice is OK if you’re doing a large commercial project, but you have a snowballs chance of finding a residential contractor who will agree to complay w/ all of her advice just to do your piddly $5000 bathroom makeover.
For a small residential renovation like you’re talking about, the main point is just don’t pay too much up front, and use someone who is recommended (either Angie’s list or ask your coworkers and friends for recommendations).
Also, don’t tell the contractor that you’re a lawyer unless the $h!t hits the fan–otherwise you will be charged a premium as “insurance.”
brown eyes
I was suggesting all of this if all of the work was going to be done simultaneously in one big project. That’s alot more than a 5k bathroom. Even then, if you have to move plumbing, you need permits and inspections. Taking out kitchens and baths will run more than most people anticipate, esp. in older houses and once things start, other problems are uncovered.
I agree, Anon, if it’s a small bit at a time, just get it done.
Fiona
Thank you all for your excellent advice!! I’m glad to hear that you all think it’s doable. We’re going to see the property again this weekend – I’ll keep you posted if we end up going for it!
Anon
Some reassurance:
My mom did not find out she was pregnant with me until she was almost 5 months along. This was in the early 70s and she had been drinking, smoking etc. (although not heavily) the entire time. My mom had always had really irregular periods and weight fluctuations, and so she just didn’t clue into the fact she was pregnant. I was her first pregnancy so she had no experience. She also had no pregnancy symptoms whatsoever – she would have been one of those people delivering in the garden aisle at KMart if she hadn’t gone in for a routine PAP smear and been told by her (very shocked) doctor she was almost 5 months pregnant. 35+ years later, I am fine. I have a well-ab0ve-average IQ, did awesome in school (was in the gifted and talented program actually) and have no serious health problems to speak of. The only thing that might be attributable to some kind of prenatal deficit is that my bottom ribs are shorter than they should be – but it doesn’t affect anything (it’s just a funny anomaly that I found out about when I was checked for scoliosis in the 6th grade, the radiologist found it hilarious) and otherwise, I am fine. It was a tense time for my parents because there was no diagnostic ultrasound back then and they had to wait until I was born to see if there were problems. If you’ve had an ultrasound and the baby looks OK, and your OB thinks things are fine, don’t worry. And congratulations. :)
Anon
Pretty much the same story here! I turned up pregnant unexpectedly and started fretting because I had not been “alcohol free” at conception and the first few weeks. My *former* ObGyn got me going on the fretting. My mother told me to chill. She said “Honey, when I was young, we smoked, we drank, we water-skied, we ate what we had always eaten. That’s what we did back then – kept living our life the same, only pregnant.” While I do have unexplicably very bad eyesight, correctable, otherwise my brother and I turned out as expected. My french friends do the massive eye-roll over the if-you-drank-you-better-be-worried-about-the-baby thing. I don’t think we ought to be on here giving the “unexpectedly pregnant” links to horror articles. Not positive, and totally not necessary. Congratulations on your pregnancy, relax and enjoy, and all the best to you and your family!
Preggo Angie
Welcome back to the club! While I found out earlier than you, it just gave me more time to panic!
sloppy
Hooray weekend thread! I have a problem likely not unique to me, was hoping some of you might have had similar issues.
For as long as I can remember – as in, from the time I was a child – I’ve received feedback on my work along the lines of, ‘great ideas, sloppy execution.’ I floated through school, college, graduate school, and even law school with good (enough) grades because the ideas and enthusiasm were sufficiently impressive to overcome typographical and grammatical errors.
Now, I’m a year into an associate position at a law firm, and I love my job. However, the bad habits I never bother to address at an earlier age have caught up with me, and I’ve had several gentle … and more recently, not so gentle … reminders that I need to double and triple check all of my work before it goes out the door. I’ve had a couple of pretty big screw-ups that, thankfully, were caught before things were filed but were not caught by me. This worries me, and worries my employers more.
So – for those of you who are not naturally gifted proofreaders, do you have any tips for me? I’ve realized that my attention to detail is much more attuned in the morning than the afternoon, so to the extent possible I’ve been trying to finish things the night before they are do, to give myself time to review in the morning before handing it in. I’ve also realized I do much better editing on paper than on a computer, for whatever reason. Beyond those two things, I’m stuck. Any thoughts or advice? How can I train myself to be a better writer and editor of my own work?
jr
The editing in hard copy is a good thing. Also read what you’ve written aloud (with office door closed); I like to do it standing up, it seems to help for whatever reason.
Anonymous
I second the reading aloud suggestion.
NYC
I always proofread standing up, too!
a lawyer
Yes. Read aloud. The federal judge I clerked for years ago taught me this, and it works better than anything else!
It sounds as if you are aware how much of a problem this can be. Employers get really nervous when something nearly goes out with errors, and you don’ t want them to stop giving you work because they either do not trust you or don’t want to have to take the time to proof carefully themselves.
On the other hand, as a good friend who is also an excellent lawyer pointed out to me, there are actually very screw-ups that really damage your case when it comes down to trial. Happy thought :)
K
I’ve never tried this, as my proofreading/editing skills are pretty decent, but one of my coworkers swears by printing out whatever document she is editing, and then reading it from the bottom up (essentially backwards). She catches lots of errors this way!
Midori
This. It keeps you from reading it like a novel (read… skim… snoooooze), and forces you to look at it instead as integral pieces. I used to work as a proofreader in a press, and that was the only way to do it. If I got too interested in the actual thoughts of what was on the page, I’d miss the mechanics.
Also: do you have an assistant who can help? Mine is fabulous, and if she’s not too busy is often willing to be a second pair of eyes. It’s not a substitute–ultimately you’re responsible for your own work, but she’s often able to see things I miss after 2 or 3 readings.
SF Bay Associate
I also do this, with a ruler so I read from right to left, bottom to top, line by line.
Lawgirl
SF Bay Associate, how do you read from right to left?! I’m confused…. Won’t it just be jibberish? (?jibberish be just it Won’t)
SF Bay Associate
Exactly. You can’t possibly read for content if you’re reading right to left, end to beginning. You WILL however notice that one sentence with two periods, the two spaces between the words, and the comma that was italicized after the case name. I find that if I read the normal way, I am paying more attention to my arguments and much less likely to notice that double period. Reading left to right, my brain isn’t checking content at all, which enables other errors to pop out.
I’d also add that when you print from Word to PDF, like you’re going to send a doc to opposing counsel, CHECK THE AUTO – TABLE OF CONTENTS and other auto numbering in a hard copy of the PDF. Sometimes Word -> PDF does strange things to the auto TOC and stuff gets renumbered wrong. In my first year, I got reamed by a senior associate for submitting a doc with a jacked TOC that made us look bad, but then after I feverishly rechecked my perfect word doc and showed the senior that the doc was right when it left me, we eventually figured out it was the conversion to PDF that messed it up somehow.
Lawgirl
SF Bay Associate, how do you proofread from right to left?! I’m confused…. Won’t it just be jibberish? (?jibberish be just it Won’t)
Louise
The right to left method is useful for finding spelling errors, because it is jibberish. Your mind is forced to focus on individual words rather than whole thoughts.
It is only one tool; you still need to proofread for grammar and continuity errors left to right.
Chicago K
Also this, I used to occasionally proof read some publications my college sent out, and this works every time.
Lana Lang
I used to have pretty atrocious attention to detail before I went to law school, but now I’m a huge pedant when it comes to grammar, spelling, proofreading etc. Pretty handy for a lawyer, apparently, but also sometimes really annoying as it takes me so much longer to do things because I check and quadruple-check everything! That said, it is really important, but I am living proof that you can learn it!
If you struggle, one thing that may help is doing like a checklist for yourself of the things that you regularly miss. E.g. for a contract you might put down things like ‘check clause numbering is correct’ or ‘check defined terms’ etc and then go through each in turn. It’s usually easier to find one type of error at a time and trying to check spelling, and grammar and correctness of advice all at once is really hard. It may work better for you to go through a document a couple of times, but each time looking for different potential pitfalls. Just until you get used to it, which you will!
Editing in hard copy is definitely much easier. Also, I think you are going the right way about it leaving things for a while before checking them. If it’s something really important then (provided you have a good one) why not ask your secretary to proofread. Or another associate in your year, to make sure that the howlers are spotted before you send them to the client. Again, probably not something you have to do on an ongoing basis, but just until you feel more comfortable.
Anon
I read over everything word for word very carefully. It can take a while sometimes (like a 35 page appellate brief), but I think it is so worth it to not submit something, especially to the court, that has errors. I also have another attorney read over anything I submit to the court, actually we all do this in my office. I then make whatever changes on the computer and then print it out and read over again, very carefully. It is tedious, but I just consider it part of my job.
A
Print out a hard copy and go through every line with the aid of a ruler. You don’t get to slide the ruler down to the next line until you’ve slowly read the line you’re on twice. I’ve found that physically placing the tip of my pen over every word helps as well. It’s long and tedious, but that’s editing for you.
Dasha
I do more or less this, but I put a little check mark on top of every single word and punctuation mark.
Taylor
I am a mess myself. Terrible with doing my own filing and I cannot format worth a damn. I went to law school when Westlaw and Lexis were still a novelty and I did not have to type at all at any of my clerkships – it was all dicatation. I usually ask someone else to proofread my work. We know what we meant to say so it is too easy to miss typos. When no one is around, and it is an important brief, my husband does the proofreading. Apparently, a competent alter ego pops out when I go to court!
JAS
I was going to suggest the same thing!! I have a terrible tendency to just not see typoss but but literally forcing myself to check off each word (is it spelled correctly? is it the proper tense? are there the right number of spaces/proper punctuation? etc) is the only way I can be confident that I have checke everything. A friend also recommended the “reading backwards” method others have described, and it is really helpful. The only way I have found to be sure though is very literally placing a check mark above each word on a paper copy.
JAS
ha! “typoss”. I made my point I think.
MJ
I agree with all of the above:
–DO NOT let the temptation to get something to a client or a boss quickly interfere with your need to proofread; this goes back to time management–it’s not worth promising too fast or too soon–the client would rather have it done right. build in enough time to check things, and if someone “wants it now” tell them it will be ready in 30 mins if it’s not proofed yet
–create checklists for common errors until proofing becomes second nature
–use a ruler
–run redlines; proof against the clean, but check turned documents against redlines
–proof against hard copies, not electronically, even if it means having to print a draft email out
–make sure that your assistant or document processing or whomever is turning documents for you does a good job; that is to say, DO NOT accept sloppy work: make the person fix a shoddy turn if they did a half-a$$ed job, so they won’t continue to rely on you to “catch” that they missed things
–check any specifics (dates, names, entity names, commas in entity names, share amounts, dollar amounts, locations, proper nouns, signature blocks, numbering, titles etc.); also conform your document such that you make sure you are referring to defined terms (or similar ideas) in the exact same way throughout a document
–be careful if you “cut and paste” when you draft that document styles and numbering and slighly different defined terms do not “creep” into your document unintentionally
–double-check defined terms in the TOC, footers, and exhibits/attachments AND ancillary agreements to a master agreement
–use resources at your firm, including paralegals, secretaries, or proofreaders, if you have them; if you can teach a good paralegal how to proof, your life will be immensely better
You will get better. And it can be a real career-killer as a junior associate to be known as sloppy, so make this a high priority in your career development.
anon
I had your same problem and agree it’s extremely important to correct. What works best for me is dictating and editing hard copy. It’s like editing someone elses work which is always easier for me. I also had to get used to dictating but it’s soo much better. I almost never have typos now.
E
There is a lot of good advice above, but I wanted to add that if you have time, you should put the document aside for at least 24 hours, and then proofread it. I know this is not always possible, but I find that I catch more errors this way.
Tired Lawyer
If you’ve been told throughout your life that you have great ideas and sloppy execution, you might be a very bright person who has ADD.
I suggest you go online and research a bit the criteria to see if you fit the diagnosis. If you think you might, see a medical doctor and discuss medication.
It made a huge difference in my son’s life.
Also, I second the suggestions that you have a friendly co-worker review your documents before you submit them.
anonymous
I happpened upon information about ADD while looking up housekeepers/organizers and it really rang true for me. It explained many of my “issues” over the years, including poor academic and job performance, when I would just get so frustrated w/myself. I tried Adderall last month, from my doc’s script, and what a difference. Coupled with other strategies, I have seen major improvements in my daily life. Wish I could go back to junior high and start over but better late than never. :)
sloppy
You guys are fantastic. Thank you so much, for all of this.
Taylor
Again, Tired Lawyer has a good idea re: adult ADD. I read “Driven to Distraction” and that book has many, many tips for dealing with ADD. Whether you are actually dx, or like me, suspect that you may fall on the ADD continuum, this book can help!
anonymous
I have been reading the sequel, “Delivered from Distraction,” and their descriptions/writing are just really funny, like I wrote it myself but with better humor. It’s like a light bulb went on.
j
Editing is my favorite part of the writing process! Here’s my steps (for legal work):
1. Print out.
2. Read backwards, I always start from the last paragraph and read each sentence, last to first.
3. Read front-to-back, using a sheet of colored paper to read line by line.
4. Make all edits in word document.
5. Control + F (or apple +f) for obvious word errors that word will not flag (e.g. ‘statue’ instead of ‘statute.’)
6. Print again, and highlight all cites. Check only the citations.
7. Polish and do one more read-over to catch any last minute mistakes.
Take lots of breaks! I do this in 15-20 minute chunks with a break in between. After a while of looking at the same chunk of text, your brain has a funny way of self-correcting.
TennADA
My first proofread is for content – does this say what I want it to say, the way I want to say it? The second proof is for grammar and punctuation – read it like your comp professor would. The third proof is for typos. Then, hopefully, at least the next day or even the day after that, proof it again. All three ways. Get someone else to proof it also – but only after you’ve done all your proofing – you don’t want them to think you’re trying to get them to do your work. Most everyone would like someone else to proof their work, so maybe look around for a mutual-proofreading-buddy? It can only benefit you both.
And, in my experience, if it’s an appellate brief, you can have your secretary proof it, the partners proof it, their secretaries proof it, the associates proof it, their secretaries proof it, and, if she’s available and as good a proofer as mine, your mama can proof it too, and yet….after sending the blasted thing in, the next time you look at it, there will be typo. :o
Jr Associate
I need advice! I have an informal interview over breakfast next week. I need advice on what people think is appropriate wardrobe. I think a suit would be overdoing it, so I’m curious what would be appropriate. Thanks!
Anonymous K
If you’re pretty sure a suit would be overdoing it, I would suggest maybe a simple sheath in a subdued color (maybe dark purple) with a black blazer.
Others might have better suggestions. It also depends on the city, industry (although I’m assuming law), etc.
ceb
I would wear business casual: Tailored black pants, a grey or jewel-toned sweater set, moderate heels, and pearls. However, my city is notoriously casual outside of the courtroom.
Jess
I’m kind of liking for casual the dress pants with a different colored jacket, worn open. I have an almost canvasy/khaki color jacket from Banana that I can wear open with black dress pants … Then if you need to fake it, you can always button up.
Good luck!
Jess
By jacket, I meant blazer ..
'Nonymous
Could I get feedback on my new plan to GET OUT OF HERE?
1. Go back to school. Get an MBA in Finance.
2. Go work in Manhattan as an investment banker. Have no life for 5 years.
3. Save money and then retire.
In my head, this works.
Um… will it fly in real life?
CFM
What are you doing now? What kind of change are you looking for? Where do you live now? Your plan is actually this
1. Go back to school. Get an MBA in Fiance
2. ?????
3. Profit.
There needs to be a lot more steps in there! Have you already had a career? What happens if you don’t get that job, is retirement in 5 years still on track? Its either possible or a pipe dream, depending on a lot of other factors.
Reluctantly in DC
Is this a real question? No, it won’t.
Samantha
Nonymous, tell us more about where you want to get out of, and your background, so we can understand your question better!
E Anon
You’d be an associate banker coming straight out of your MBA program. Small chance you’d have a killer year or two in there and your plan would work out, but more likely than not, you’d be able to save in the ballpark of, say, $600k over those five years after paying back your education if you’re living frugally, which will allow you to take a quite a bit of time off, but not to retire for good (unless you’re already within a few hundred thousand of that point already).
S
$600K after paying back loans even sounds a bit optimistic to me, I would’ve thought less (and I’ve been in investment banking in Manhattan). After paying off rent and food (cos I never had time to cook though I love cooking!) there wasn’t that much scope for saving!
'Nonymous
Hello — Yes, real question, mostly due to an incredibly frustrating month.
I have 20 years in the same indsutry (engineering) and I think I’m going to officially go insane shortly.
I was flipping through Wall Street Journal and began seriously considering completely changing fields.
Thanks for letting me vent a bit.
happyness
if your’re an engineer is there something else you can try? like teaching math? some programs pay you to teach overseas – kind of like the peace corps, but paid. That is my fave escape dream right now :)
Sorry – can’t see a societal upside to being an i-banker …
Anonymous
Happyness – I bet you real are happy! Teaching math sounds like a great suggestion.
Anonymous
Have you ever considered law school and becoming a patent lawyer? Law school is a terrible idea for a lot of folks, but I have several engineer friends who became patent lawyers and really like the work. It’s a lot more stable/less stressful than i-banking, too.
Anon
Patent lawyer here … this is an option BUT do not do this unless you thoroughly investigate whether your desired career trajectory would be a good fit for you/work out/meet your personal requirements/etc. There are a lot of unhappy lawyers out there, as evidenced even on this site’s comments, and there are many lawyers who are out of work.
D
The USPTO is looking for patent examiners. Might be enough of a change. Check out the USA Jobs website
MJ
If you are legitimately trying to get onto Wall Street, right or wrong, it’s VERY hard to get hired at your age. Investment banks like YOUNG hungry associates. You will not find very many 40+ folks hired into associate training classes. In fact, it’s even harder to get into business school if you are over 35, because schools push folks with as much experience as you toward their executive MBAs, if they have them. Don’t get me wrong–I got my MBA from a Top-10 school at the age of 27, and one of my study-groupmates started his MBA at 44 after a long and successful career at GE. It’s possible. But he wasn’t headed to Wall Street.
Also, I’d like to add, as part of your equation, a few reality checks.
B-School will set you back $160,000, plus opportunity cost of whatever your current salary is. So factor that into your plan. Scholarships are not unheard of, (especially for women!), but it is highly unlikely you’ll get a full ride to any top school. And you need to go to a top school to get hired to Wall Street.
Associate salaries start right around 100,000. There’s a lot of upside, but from a cash flow perspective, you ONLY get rich if the firm has had a good year, your group has had a good year, and your boss likes you. Also, many banks are paying out bonuses in equity which vests over a few years, so you won’t get cash. You get a volatile financial stock with a lockup.
Associates at banks in investment banking proper (as opposed to capital markets or PWM or prime brokerage) work horrific hours. I’m talking barely seeing your bed, feeling like you want to throw up you’ve been awake for so many days, coffee has no effect kind of hours. That was hard on my body in my twenties, but I can’t imagine doing multiple all-nighters per week in my forties. (It’s hard enough to do them occasionally in my early thirties.) You may think, “I’m tough, I could do that!”, but honestly, it can be really, really rough if you’re not bionic.
IDo some research as to whether you have connections on WS, or someone who is on a desk that needs a quant, because straight-up banking is going to be very hard to break into with your background, unless you want to be a semiconductor analyst, quant, or specific trader. You need an in. If you have help or a mentor or connections…go for it. But firing up 160,000+ in debt in my forties would scare me!
Diva452
not to sound bitchy but….did you miss 2008????????? Everyone lost their jobs, and most have not found new ones and left finance (been there done that). It’s difficult enough to find a job in your 40’s but to try to go the Wall Street route is like trying to swim up Niagra Falls. I would go the law route. I’m in the biz, I know. Don’t throw $$ away. If you want the Wall Street lifestyle then get a job at a wirehouse as an advisor. good money, no advanced degree required, they will pay for licensing and your age will be a plus. Usually, a good broker/dealer will also pay for your CFA if you want to be an analyst or trader.
Louise
Your plan sounds like it was designed to “get rich quick,” and that your ultimate goal is to retire young. I would suggest that if you already have an engineering degree and experience, that a more reasonable path for you would be to look for engineering pre-IPO start-ups that offer stock options.
It is still a crap shoot, but at least it is a crap shoot that leverages the work you have already done, so you get to skip step 1. Step 2 then becomes “go to work in Silicon valley and have no life for 5 years.”
I would also suggest that step 3 is really all you need. Anyone can save money and retire early, but it requires paying off debt and AGGRESSIVELY reducing expenses now. Please note I did not say that any of this is easy, just possible.
i'm nobody
i think there’s more money in contracting or plumbing. seriously, i’m a partner at a big firm and i daydream about being a plumber.
my own schedule, inelastic demand, $$….
'Nonymous
Thank you, everyone for the great ideas and harsh truths.
Much appreciated.
jr. prof
um…. what if, god forbid, you get hit by a bus during those five years? No chance to enjoy your retirement. Life is NOW! Live it!
Reluctantly in DC
I am in need of classic black leather pumps with a medium heel which are reasonably comfortable. I’d like to spend $100 or less.
Any suggestions?
Res Ipsa
they’re pretty plain, but I have a pair of Ros Hommerson heels that are my go-to court shoes that are very comfortable (I walk 15 from the office to the court and back in them no problem.) There are several styles of pumps i see on Zappos now — they’re about $80.
Reluctantly in DC
Thank you!
TennADA
I have black Ros Hommerson 2 1/2 inch slingbacks. They are my go-to shoe for professional comfort.
anon
Not trying to be snarky but…. with endless, zappos, 6pm and Piperlime available to all of us and you are able input exactly what you are searching for. Why do we get so many, “I’m looking for basic pumps, please help” posts?
because
(not OP here) it is often nice to hear personal recommendations re comfort, fit, etc.
Anonymous
I find it much harder to find basic, conservative pumps (or suits, or blouses, or whatever) than trend-of-the-moment ones. People on this site are more likely to have recommendations for basic stuff than folks on other sites.
Miriam
Btw, I just went to the 6pm website and omg, I could spend all day there! My bank account could seriously suffer if I let myself go. They are also having a 10-10-2010 sale!
KelliJ
I don’t know if you like black patent but I bought these shoes and can’t say enough good things about them.
http://shop.nordstrom.com/S/3093240?origin=category&resultback=3310
Samantha
Apologies in advance to those who are not interested in kids/ pregnancy.
I looked up the previous pregnancy threads and couldn’t find the answer to my question, which is:
When do you tell your boss that you’re pregnant?
I’m currently 13 weeks, and this is my first pregnancy. But I think I am showing already (friends I trust outside of work say they’re positive I’m showing, though I attribute some of that to them knowing that I’m pregnant). It could be because I’m somewhat small on top, or it could be because of bloating and indigestion, but I do have a tummy pooch that seems very visible to me, and I try to camouflage it with my work clothes and blazers. Nobody at work has noticed or asked me anything about my tummy yet.
At my (non-law) firm, there’s an internal labor market to get staffed on projects.
My concerns about telling too soon are: I might not get staffed on good projects, I might get too many questions/comments about it all the time, and it might affect my performance reviews (though I know it hasn’t hampered my performance in any way to date).
At the same time, I almost welcome the relief of telling and not having to worry every day about what to wear and whether it camouflages my tummy enough.
I know some books suggest telling after you finish a project successfully, to show it hasn’t impacted your performance, but my current project will not finish for another 10-12 weeks, and I think that will be too late for me.
Any suggestions are appreciated about when to tell!
JessC
Caveat: I’ve never been pregnant.
I seem to remember from previous discussions about this that many commenters suggested waiting until you’re about 10-12 weeks along. I think there was also some suggestion of waiting until you hear the baby’s heartbeat in the ultrasound? But I have no earthly idea when that happens…
Samantha
Thanks JessC. I’m pretty much past that (heartbeat, 10-12 weeks when the risk of miscarriage drops) so technically, I have the green light to tell according to the books.
My question really is because I’m afraid of being seen as less committed when I tell – so that would dictate that I wait as long as I can (maybe). How do I judge when I’m looking so obviously pregnant (not just a little podgy) that I should tell? Wait until someone at work asks me? Hard for me or my husband to tell, since we don’t notice much difference day to day.
Anonymous
I can almost always tell when someone is pregnant. I think most women who have been pregnant or who have been around a lot of pregnant women can. But it’s really no one’s business but yours. No one’s going to ask you. But by 3 months, it’s probably pretty evident.
I think you should tell people when you feel comfortable discussing your pregnancy with your coworkers. I don’t just mean the work stuff, I mean endless conversations about which daycares are best and what brand of diapers to get and how the senior partner had morning sickness for the first four months of her pregnancy. If you’re close to them, that might be soon; if you’re not that close, it might not be until you’re closer to 5 months. Any longer than that and it’ll just be obvious.
When you do tell, tell your boss first, in person, and have a plan to present to him. Let him or her know that you’re committed to your job and will be returning after your maternity leave. Have already researched your company’s leave policies. Let your boss know that you’ll work out a plan to ensure coverage of your cases while you’re gone.
Samantha
Thanks Anonymous! Very few professional women at my workplace that I interact with regularly. Just 2 and they are junior and have never been pregnant. I don’t think they can tell – I’ve looked a little tired but they do too sometimes when they’ve been working long hours! :)
Guess from what you said, that means I’m not close enough to tell – and I’ll wait it out a little longer.
AnonInSD
As someone in the position of being the boss, I have to say that if you see your current job as long term, you should tell your boss now and ask him or her not to say anything to anyone else for now (you can always cite fear of a late miscarriage). Waiting until 5 months is fine if you are not planning on staying long term – but I would be seriously pissed off if one of my associates waited that long to tell me. Assuming that a pregnant worker is planning on taking off 2-4 weeks before the birth, that leaves me only three to three and a half months to juggle the staffing on cases and arrange coverage. It also puts me in an awkward position if I approved someone’s long vacation and then found out one of my people was going to be out for 6 weeks to 4 months.
A
I am a 5th year associate at a large firm and just finished my 14th week of pregnancy. I told my supervisor this week, and I generally had a great, supportive reaction to the news from everyone who has heard. I think there is a balance between telling too soon (i.e., get past the first trimester and show people that you can continue performing at the level they expect while you are pregnant), and telling too late. I initially thought that waiting as long as possible was the way to go, but there are other women in my office who are also pregnant, and I think it is only fair to let people know early enough so that they can plan for your absence. Also, I think waiting until it is obvious to everyone is too late – I wouldn’t want people gossiping or conjecturing about it.
No matter when you tell, you will eventually have to face your fear of being seen as less committed. I’m not sure what you gain by waiting an extra week or two (until people may be suspecting) or telling a week or two earlier. The way to address the commitment issue is to just deal with it head on and tell your boss that you intend to continue working at the same level of performance and that you plan to return after your maternity leave. It may also be helpful to have thought through a transition plan for work you see continuing past your due date, so you can show them that you have a plan and you are willing to do what is necessary to ensure that your leave and return go smoothly.
By the way, although I can tell that I am developing a belly and look different (I am petite and have a small frame), everyone said that they couldn’t tell yet so if you still want to wait a little longer, you may have some time if you can still camoflauge your belly with looser clothes.
Good luck and let us know what you decide!
Midori
I had to tell early because I couldn’t perform at pre-pregnancy level (sick, exhausted, pregnancy depression) and needed my superiors to know what my deal was and that it was a temporary condition. You have to be realistic about it.
VA
I have another LinkedIn question! I feel like it’s a little ridiculous, but I’m a 2L on the job search, so I’m trying for anything that will possibly help my career. Do many law students used LinkedIn, or is it more for established professionals? I’ve been hearing about it a lot recently, so if it’s the new trend, I feel like it might help me. But if it’s more for established career types, I think it would be better to wait.
Rach
I’d set up a page now. You can list your group involvements in law school, your moot court / journal experience, any past jobs, volunteer projects, etc. And you can start linking with classmates now, who you might otherwise lose touch with once you graduate.
KelliJ
Absolutely do it. I know college students are doing it. Students and recent grads from my alma mater are members of the alumni LI groups and are always asking for help and advice.
Jenn
Yay, Open thread! Would like some advice from the more experienced ‘rettes out there:
I was hit with a double whammy of family issues and personal health problems during my last year at law school. In a panic about managing all of that, classes, my part-time job LSAT tutoring, my health, and family obligations, I accepted the first decent-looking job offer I got from a mid-sized firm in our city. My grades were top 1/3 of the class and I had an offer with another firm previously that told me at the last minute that it would be delaying the promotion from clerk to associate (and corresponding change in salary) until about 6 months after we received bar results. So I took the next offer I got at another firm, which was a mistake. It was a good offer, decent pay, great benefits and extras, beautiful plush offices, plum location, horrible horrible horrible personalities. Short version: the firm – while not 100 percent worthless – was so unsociable and backstabbing to all other attorneys in the city that its reputation is pretty bad. Since attorneys coming out of there have a reputation for taking on its volatile litigation style, having its name on my resume was not helpful, but I managed to land a job at a small firm in the same city with a better, middle-of-the-road reputation and have been here a year. Its okay, but its a family shop with no bonuses, no raises, no future for its associates and a high turnover. Also the pay is at the low end of the low scale for pay (and I’ve asked – I’m the highest earner here outside of the partners).
I’m not at all interested in a partnership, or, frankly, working in a law firm. I worked in the media for a couple of years after undergrad, and in a fortune 500 corporation during undergrad and again doing risk management work for 3 more years after grad and before returning to law school. My goal is to transition to compliance work for a fortune 500 corporation, return to the corporate environment where I know my way around, provide a massive salary boost given the path I’m on now, and continue making use of my law degree, project management experience and communications skills.
My questions are this:
1. I’m interested in information on the different environments where compliance positions pop up most frequently, if anyone has been or is there. Pharmaceutical companies, banks and financial services companies, government agencies, technology services, etc.
It looks like some areas require other types of education / certification, which I would assume makes the compliance career path quite industry-specific once you reach a certain level?
2. Any ideas on how to convey to hiring managers / HR that yes, I do want to leave the law firm environment and not return – not because its been an underwhelming experience but because I truly do prefer the corporate environment. I’ve been brushed off by HR personnel when they point out that a position would be a “big pay cut” for me – when it actually would be in the range of a 10k raise. Since I’d rather not highlight how underpaid I am, that’s not an impression I want to correct, I don’t think.
The only people in the corporate world who seem to grasp that the J.D. is an asset are other J.D.s who do not work in the legal department (and while I’m not opposed to working in a legal department, I’ve only been out of school 2 years and the chance of getting into one is slim. Plus, I’d prefer a career path with more of a focus on progression, just so there’d be some challenge to keep things interesting). And most of those I’ve spoken with, outside of in-house legal departments, went from working in an industry to law school, then returned to the same industry and used the degree to jump a few pay grades. I went to law school to get away from insurance, which bores me to tears, so that’s not my first choice. Am I being spoiled / unrealistic? (Bluntness is fine – I’m thick-skinned.)
'Nonymous
I work at a huge non-law firm, and we have a few lawyers around for government compliance issues and general questions. Wanting to leave a law firm shouldn’t raise too many eyebrows.
The best way to get into corporate life (that that I can think of) is either an internal recommendation by someone already at the company, or dropping a resume in with HR along with a STANDOUT cover letter (research the company a bit and outline how your experience would help the company meet its corporate goals).
My company understands that people often are OK taking a paycut if there’s a good reason for it.
Good luck. Hope that helps a bit.
Anonymous
Leaving a firm to go in-house doesn’t generally raise any questions, so I’m surprised you’re getting some. I took a 40% paycut to go in-house and no one questioned my commitment–most lawyers understand that there are a multitude of reasons to leave a firm. If you feel you have to say something, then you can cite one of those multitude of reasons–“desire for … greater commitment to one client; understand one client’s business in depth; broader variety of work; focus on quality work rather than billable hours.” That should put an end to that line of questioning.
Jenn
Thanks both for your thoughts! I should have clarified a bit more: the skepticism I’ve encountered comes from (relatively uninformed) HR personnel about why an attorney is interested in a non-firm job that’s not in their legal department/in-house department, per se. It’s arisen during two screening interviews for compliance officer-type positions. They seemed incredibly skeptical of my motivations for wanting to “move down” as one of them put it and seemed to hold the image of an “attorney” as someone who was stepping out of a Boston-Legal-type environment. It was very surprising to me as well, since I haven’t encountered too much skepticism from other attorneys at all.
F
Like pleating & boning but not loving the color of, or slit in, this dress
ES
I just had to post these shoes. I feel like they are a sad cousin of peep toe booties. Can anyone explain the point??
http://www1.bloomingdales.com/catalog/product/index.ognc?ID=483365&PseudoCat=se-xx-xx-xx.esn_results
Dasha
weird!
Speaking of, has anyone here successfully worked the flat oxfords trend? I really like them on their own, but I have yet to see anyone wearing them in a way that did not make me gag. Sorry if that’s harsh. Work appropriate or casual suggestions welcome!
Anonymous
I wear flat oxfords all the time casually with skinny jeans and a feminine sweater set or blouse. I also wear them with a sheath dress and tights pretty often. They work great for me because I am tall and have to walk a lot (still in school so parking is terrible).
I tend to wear ones with detailing which seem far more casual to me. Such as: http://www1.bloomingdales.com/catalog/product/index.ognc?ID=494778&CategoryID=19840
I’ve never worn oxfords with a suit or more professional dress because they seem too trendy for interviews which is the only thing I really dress up for now.
Anonymous
I read this blog post the other day (not my blog) and I really like how she’s styled flat oxfords in the pics at the bottom of the post.
http://youlookfab.com/2010/09/28/how-to-wear-flat-oxfords/
T
Thanks for a good laugh!
T
Oops – that was meant to be a reply to ES’s link.
Louise
These don’t strike me a sad at all, but rather a feminine version of an oxford. The cut out would allow a little of the color of tights/trouser socks to show and help integrate the outfit.
Those of us who can’t wear heels are always looking for interesting flats, and this is a fresh style without being brightly colored or super casual. I like them.
cbackson
Any divorced Corporettes out there?
Two weeks ago, my husband and I separated after he told me, to my complete shock, that he wanted a divorce (short version: he’s not sure if this is the life that he wants; I’m 30, and we’ve only been married for 3 years). After the initial horrible conversation, we agreed to take a month apart, and then get counseling together, but I’m pretty sure that (much as I believe we could work through this) my husband has mentally left the marriage.
I know all the logistical things to do, and I’m in individual counseling now. But I guess I’m hoping to hear from some smart, successful ladies who have been through this and can reassure me that there’s life on the other side of this. I know that someday I will feel better, but right now that someday feels so far away.
Thanks, y’all.
Samantha
I have no wisdom to share, but [[hug]]. You WILL get through this.
You sound like you are doing all the right things and having the right attitude to get you through to the other side.
Extremely Anonymous
First, let me just say I am so sorry this is happening. How awful for you.
Two of my very good friends have had this happen to them – the out-of-nowhere announcement that the marriage is not working and the husband wants a divorce. In one case, my friend had been married for 10 years; in the other, she had been married about as long as you have been. In both cases, I am sorry to say, there was no salvaging the marriage. The husbands just wanted out, and out they got.
There is absolutely life on the other side of this. It is devastating but survivable. This also happens far more than you may think.
I am glad you are getting counseling. One of my friends (the one with the longer marriage) did and was able to make some very positive changes in her life, and come to a realization that the marriage was based on a lot of inequities that she has been able to avoid in her new marriage. My other friend did not, and she still has a LOT of trust issues and has had a hard time moving on in her new relationship.
One thing I can tell you, from helping two friends through this, is that there is no right or wrong way to feel right now. All your feelings – rage, sadness, guilt, frustration, despair – are valid and you should allow yourself to feel things and not push anything aside. Your therapist should be able to help you with a lot of those emotions. You need to be gentle with yourself right now – don’t overcommit yourself at work or outside work as a way to “distract yourself” from thinking about the divorce. If it helps you to be around people, make plans with some sensitive friends. If it doesn’t, it’s OK to turn down invitations.
I will warn you that one of the hardest things for both of my friends was telling people and I think the “Band-Aid Rip” approach was best – tell as many people as you can at once and then it’s over. Another difficult thing is getting “dropped” by friends you may have. It’s irrational, but people do feel like there are sides to be taken in situations like these. Couples friends especially proved problematic for my longer-married friend as there were a few that immediately stopped talking to her, even though the divorce was in no way her idea. My other friend lost some people in her life who had known her husband better. Sorry to say, you probably won’t come out of this experience with everyone you had before the announcement. But that’s okay. It will make room for other people in your life that will be supportive.
Again, I feel for you but you will be okay. You are strong and will get through this. Lean on people right now. Let them help you, if you need it. My thoughts are with you.
cbackson
Thanks so much. I told a lot of people right after he dropped the bomb, because I was in the middle of a closing and was such a wreck. But there are two close friends who live far away that I haven’t told yet, because once I’d done one rip of the band-aid, the thought of doing it again was just so overwhelming.
Thanks again for your kind words and thoughts.
F
I got divorced two years ago. I’d been married for only a year and a half. Since then, four of my friends got divorced, all professional women who had been married for less than five years. Many, many people of our generation are going through this – divorce after a relatively short marriage before kids.
I have two pieces of advice:
(1) Give yourself permission to feel terrible for a little while. Everyone I know, including me, felt absolutely terrible for 3-4 months. Don’t force yourself to put on a strong face. You are going through a divorce – it sucks! It’s one of the worst things people have to go through! If you want cheese for dinner, do it. If you want to drop $600 on a last minute flight to see your best friend/sister, do it. You will feel better sooner than you think, but don’t feel bad if you don’t feel better immediately.
Which leads me to … (2) You will feel better sooner than you think! I gave myself a year to deal with the breakup. Six months into that year, I walked into a Chinese restaurant and randomly ran into a guy friend of mine who was having dinner with a Boy I didn’t know. I fell in love with that Boy, and two years later we’re engaged and I’m happier than I’ve ever been. My current relationship is so much better than my relationship with my ex-husband ever was. I think back on what my life would have been like if I’d stayed married, I’m just so, so glad that I got divorced. Life is much better on the other side.
You are not alone and so many people have gone through this. Do your best and take care of yourself. And keep us posted on how you’re doing. {{HUG}}
cbackson
Thank you. Honestly, it makes me feel so much better to hear from other people who have been through this. Part of what is making this so hard is that, up until a few months ago, I would have described our marriage as deliriously happy. And so my whole view of what my life has been for the past three years–and my own trust in my ability to judge people or relationships–has pretty much been gutted.
I’m about to go stay with my parents in another city for a while and I’ve already booked myself an embarrassing number of spa treatments. Whatever works…
Suze
Hi cbackson, {BIG HUG}. So sorry you are going through this. You are doing the right things – counseling is key and asking for help (here and wherever else you can) is very important.
You will feel terrible for a while, no way around it. And you will eventually feel better – it will take a while to realize it’s happening.
I got divorced 5.5 years ago after nearly ten years of marriage and 3 (then pretty little – all under 5) kids. It was awful, just awful. A couple of points: first, I knew at least 18 months before starting divorce that marriage was over, but I kept hoping it would somehow turn around. On one hand, I was/am happy that I made every effort to ‘fix’ it before pulling the trigger (no second guessing or hindsight); OTOH, (and this may apply to your situation), in hindsight, that 18 months or so was just miserable and basically cost me time, money and heartache. Moral: if you know it’s over, or your husband is unequivocally telling you it’s over, it’s over and spending time trying to make it work may not be productive or healthy. A short separation (like what it sounds like you are doing) may be a good idea; keep in mind that many states (PA; I think NY) have ‘cool out’ periods that are mandatory before you are officially divorced, and even in no-fault/e-z divorce states, it still takes a few if not several months just to go through the process. Try not to unnecessarily prolong the agony, there is enough to last for a while.
Second, from now until you *know* you are feeling better, try to be really nice to yourself – take care of you: exercise, meditate, make sure you are eating good food and enough of it, sleep/rest enough (if you can’t sleep – a common side effect of divorce – consider temporarily using a prescription sleep aid or homeopathic remedy, but don’t let yourself turn into a sleep deprived zombie), get a massage, indulge in whatever makes you feel good/happy (without going financially off the reservation), don’t isolate yourself from friends, do stay away from toxic personalities. Work is a good diversion, but don’t let it consume you – a little bit of ‘throwing yourself into work’ can be good, too much is too much.
Third, know that you WILL feel better and your life will feel ‘normal’ again. I can tell from your comment that you are strong and grounded, and you know what to do to get through this very difficult time. On the bad days, just keep putting one foot in front of the other and give yourself a break. Those days will shorten and eventually stop, I promise, and one morning you will be walking down a sidewalk and you will (for the first time in a while) see the sun, hear the birds, smell the grass and you will say “aaah, it was horrible but I don’t feel horrible anymore. I survived , I feel GOOD, and I have a whole beautiful, interesting life with lots of loving people in it right in front of me. Here I come! ”
So, you probably know most of this anyway, but I hope it helps to here it now. Good luck and check back in to get some hugs here every now and then – it’s a good place for that, you know :). Take care.
cbackson
Thank you so much. I do know I will feel better some day. I keep trying to hold on to that thought.
I’ve had a really hard time sleeping and eating, which has been tough because I’ve been incredibly busy at work and because when he dropped the bomb, I was two weeks away from running a marathon I’ve been training for since April. I ran that marathon today, and I could definitely feel every missed meal and sleepless night.
Thank you again–I really appreciate it.
Anonymous
Congratulations on running your marathon! I’m proud of you for meeting your goal in spite of all the turmoil in your life right now.
You are a strong woman. Remember this, and repeat it to yourself, as often as necessary. A strong, strong woman.
Anon for this
(((big hugs to you)))
You’ll get through this. Divorce is hard, really hard. The hardest part for me was walking away from the ideas I thought my life would be. I am a person who likes things fairly planned out, and to let go of that, and the idea of the house/baby/retirement/etc without him was just devastating.
I was 28 and even though it was my choice to leave because he was just beyond difficult to live with, telling people was so hard. I got so many responses of, “Gee finally, he was a jerk!” I know people were trying to be nice, but it made me feel like a real idiot. You really learn who your friends are in these situations. My family stuck by me, my sister, a few good friends…the rest, i don’t talk to much anymore.
The other gave great advice – do what makes you happy – I took tons of yoga classes, fun continuing education classes in things like photography and cake decorating, I blew money on massages and new clothes, new furniture and great food. I had a best friend who I talked to endlessly about this, and I gave therapy a shot. I ended up taking a mild tranquilizer called klonopin to help me sleep at night and calm my constant anxiety.
Like one of the previous posters, I didn’t want to date anyone for 1 year. 8 months later I met the man of my dreams and 2 years later we are engaged. I couldn’t be happier!!!
And as a side note, I took great pleasure in doing all the things I didn’t do during married life because my ex and I didn’t agree on them. Cooking/eating the things he hated, buying the style of furniture he never liked, going on vacations to places he never wanted to go, I even moved to the city I wanted to live in but he didn’t.
Hang in there cb…it’s going to suck for awhile…but in a few years I bet you will be happier than you’ve ever been. Indulge and spoil yourself, you are worth it.
cbackson
Thank you. This really makes me feel better. Your first paragraph really rings true for me–I feel like I’ve lost every scrap of the future that I have hoped for and dreamed of for so long. As I commented to someone else above, until a few months ago, I would have described our marriage as deliriously happy (the last few months I thought we were both just kind of stressed out). I had brunch with my mother-in-law and sister-in-law yesterday (it’s my 30th birthday tomorrow) and both of them commented that when my husband called them out of the blue in the middle of the day, that they had thought at first that I must be pregnant.
It makes such a difference to hear from people who have been through this. I know it will be better some day–I do. But it helps to hear it from other people, too. Thank you.
So Sorry
I’m so sorry to hear about this. I’m not divorced (31 and never married, engaged for the past 2 years and not yet pulled the trigger), but recently attended a lecture by an experienced relationship/marital counselor. She said that for over half the couples who go into marital counseling, one spouse has already decided the marriage is over and just wants the counselor to “do the dirty work for him or her.” You should listen to your instinct that he has already mentally left the marriage. You sound like a strong woman and you will get through this. My thoughts are with you.
anni
You WILL survive. Nobody can give you heart advice… Just remember to be REALLY nice to yourself. I understand you do not have kids yet. If so, it will be easier. I found myself in the announcement situation (actually he cheated on me) after 17 years together and 8 yr old twins who are now 17… so life goes on and another love (or other loves) will come your way.
cbackson
Yes, I’m so glad that we don’t have children right now. I can’t imagine having to help children through this as well.
Thank you for your kind words.
J
I’ve been looking forward to open thread this week because I need some advice about how to tell my boss I’m not happy with my new-ish job (started three months ago). More background below, but basically, I experienced some bait-and-switch in the interview, and the company is relegating me more and more into an assistant/secretary role. Needless to say, this is unacceptable to me. I’ve read “Nice Girls Don’t Get the Corner Office,” which identifies the problem, but my attempts to fix it have failed so far.
I work for a small company in the technology industry (East Coast). I’m just out of grad school, and they hired me as a combination legal/HR assistant. I’m only interested in the legal portion (and made this clear in the interview), as I’m trying to decide if I want to go to law school a few years down the road. I interviewed with one of the senior VPs and the senior counsel. The HR stuff was tacked on and presented as something I could work on when not otherwise busy. In practice, I’ve barely even seen the counsel, I’ve had a grand total of two assignments from her, and I’m spending almost all my time on HR. It’s mostly very menial admin work to assist the HR director. They also assigned me the grunt work on a marketing project, and most recently, a documentation project, the job description for which contains such gems as “enter updated contact information for projects using established nomenclature,” “make sure all relevant documentation is archived on the network,” and my favorite, “verify current job site address and directions.”
I have been as tolerant as possible while I get adjusted to the company, but I’m really over it. They exclude me from “team meetings” on a lot of projects I’m involved in, and then the HR director tells me what my latest assignments are after the fact. I’ve asked to participate but they are insistent that I can’t. When I do try to take any initiative, they give me a whole list of reasons why whatever I propose won’t work. They treat me the same way as they treat the receptionists/secretaries – there’s a marked lack of respect from several of the employees. For example, this morning, a male co-worker I generally don’t talk to addressed me as “sweetie.” I also get requests from people I do not work for to scan random documents, or similar things, which I pass on to the actual secretaries as much as possible. There are no other professional women of my age/tenure in the company to use as a comparison.
Since I’m approaching the three-month mark in the position, I’m planning to ask the VP who hired me for a meeting. My supervisor will be on vacation next week, so it’s a good time, considering that most of my “exclusion” happens through her (intentionally or not). The VP has given me some relatively substantial projects, but still nothing at the level I ideally want. He’s also not aware of some of the day-to-day activity, I suspect.
Ideally, what I’d like is to work much more with the senior counsel on legal issues, much less admin work, and in a more general way I would like to be part of the team and included among the professionals rather than the staff. I’m planning to stay in the job for at least a little while longer, but it’s not where I want to be long-term – just haven’t found a better opportunity yet. I’m looking.
So here’s what I want to get your opinions on:
1. Is my frustration reasonable? Is my experience common when starting a new job, especially for the younger readers? Please share if you have a similar story, especially if you turned it around.
2. How should I approach the meeting with the VP? What strategies should I use?
3. How can I manage my frustration with the job? I’m trying to be assertive and proactive and all the other good adjectives, but it’s reaching the point where a lot of this is borderline insubordination. I’m not interested in pissing people off unnecessarily, but I also want to advocate for myself.
Thanks so much!
MJ
Sorry for the scenario. Good questions. Sounds like you’ve been thoughtful.
Bear in mind, at the end of the day, you are just out of college. And people are going to treat you that way no matter how poised and mature you are. It’s unfortunate, but it’s the truth. At this job, it sounds as though the person that hired you didn’t do a great job writing the job description, or tried to glam up what really needed to get done. So…there you have it.
Frankly, it sounds like you have more smarts and talent and energy than they are willing to give you room to run. It might just flat dab be the wrong job for you, so (I know the job market’s terrible, etc.,) you should look for another job.
I would talk to the VP to try to make your last few months there better. Tell him you’d like to contribut more and give him a few examples of projects (self-initiated) where you could streamline a process or organize docs.
Overall, you have been branded a secretary, treated as a-not-so-valuable member of the team–talking the VP is unlikely to change the dismissive nature of your direct boss. FWIW, it sounds like the HR boss hijacked you and the VP is too busy to use you for legal stuff or think of projects for you, although he’d likely appreciate your contributions. She doesn’t sound like she cares whether you learn or grow, and that’s a TERRIBLE quality in a boss.
Get out. But see what you can do in the interim to have a few interesting resume bullets for your search.
'Nonymous
100% Agree with MJ.
I’ll add that you should try and make a good business connection with at least one person there who could provide a reference for you when you’re looking for your next job.
Tired Lawyer
MJ’s points are excellent. I’d like to emphasize something she said at the beginning. You. are. just. out. of. college. You’ve only had the job for three months. Not long enough to listen, learn, grow, show your value. These things take time.
I don’t mean to be unkind, but what did you think?? You are fresh out of grad school and you are hired to be an “assistant.” You’ve had the job for a grand total of ninety days (actually, just sixty working days). If you don’t want to assist, then great, look for a new job where you can be a principal.
As to your first question, yes, I think your frustrations –and your expectations — are unreasonable.
It would seem a great idea to inform your management that you are ready to take on new tasks.
ning
While, yes, you are just out of college, I think some of your frustrations are legitimate.
Let me just say first that being called “sweetie,” in a professional setting would never fly with me, and that should be addressed. However, with the other tasks you’ve been given… since you’re new to the job, I don’t think it’s unreasonable that you’re being told to fill in all the admin gaps. That’s what entry-levels do, like it or not. But, your willingness to take on these tasks, and complete them well, is something that will be noticed (whether your boss likes it or not) and used to your advantage in the long run.
In my opinion, the best that you can do right now is explain to the VP that you’re really looking forward to contributing to the company, and would like to take on more projects from him. Early in the position (at 3 months, you’re still kind of a newbie), I don’t think it’s the time to complain, but building a relationship with the VP whenever possible and showing interest in his projects could provide you some wiggle room.
MelD
Assuming you don’t have a lot of work experience between undergrad and grad school, I think you are being a bit unrealistic about getting the big projects right away. I think they’re still trying to feel out what you can do and may give you bigger projects after you prove yourself on the smaller ones you’ve gotten.
When I was younger, I was in the opposite situation in a similar position. I was told the general duties of the position, accepted it, and was given about 3x more responsibility because they thought I was competent enough to handle it. Even for me, it was just too much, and I didn’t end up staying at that job more than three months. I think it is good to let management know you want to take on new tasks, but don’t be so eager that you end up getting to a point where you can’t finish it all. It sounds like you’ve gotten some substantial projects from the VP already.
Anonymous
I think it’s fine to meet with the VPs. As for strategies, make sure your statements to them are constructive, not complaining, and that you’re asking them, not telling them. It sounds like they did pull a bait and switch and exaggerated the job in order to make it sound better; it also sounds like the HR director hijacked you. Point that out, tactfully, and ask if your position can be restructured to be more like what they originally told you it would be. Tell them you want to have a future at the company and you want to learn as much as you can and be involved at meeting so you can eventually advance.
Honestly, though, I think they need a secretary and the most junior member of the team is going to get stuck in that position no matter what. It’s also indicative of a bad office culture that your boss doesn’t care to involve you in decisions; in my company at least, when we hire recent college grads for administrative positions, it’s understood that those are entry-level positions and if they perform well, they’ll advance. So we do involve them in meetings, etc. It sounds like your company is not the kind of place that invests in its employees and wants to help them grow.
You should probably start looking for a new job. But while you’re at your current job, just keep working hard and try to get good recommendations and good bullet points for your resume.
Good luck.
Another Laura
My $0.02 worth of advice:
1) I’ve hired people into jobs like yours and supervised them. It is hard if you come into a hodge-podge type job. If you don’t have a job description, I would offer to write a “draft” job description: You could either bring the draft to the meeting with the VP or offer to write one when you speak to him. It works well when one starts a job that did not have a previous incumbent, which it sounds like your situation.
2) I think -even with a graduate degree – that there isn’t much you could do for the counsel. I’m not a lawyer but I’ve worked with many in-house attorneys. What type of work did they say that you would be doing? Other than compiling reports, you are probably not qualified to do much. If you know that there are specific things that you want to do, I’d mention that to the VP or put it in the draft job description.
3) If you can suggest to the VP that including you in the team meetings would make you more valuable to the team, that would be great. I would emphasize that to him/her rather than feeling excluded. I think it’s really poor that they don’t invite you, as that’s a great way to learn about the organization’s priorities and goals.
It sounds like it’s not a good fit or maybe a disfunctional workplace. I wouldn’t hire an employee with a graduate degree and then “waste” them on photocopying and such. You may need to “make your own opportunities” until you get another job. Good luck.
Anon
You ‘have been as tolerant as possible’? Tolerant of what? Tolerant that they’ve treated you like an assistant? Oh wait, you were hired to be an assistant. The ‘grunt work’ that you are describing is exactly the work that an assistant would get. I’m not sure what was sold to you or what you expected, but Legal Assistant or HR Assistant means glorified secretary to me (and has meant that in every company I’ve ever worked for.) Basically, my legal assistant does the filing, docket entry, copying, scanning, etc. She does get some projects but those projects aren’t the main focus of her every day job. She definitely does not sit in on team meetings or dictates the work that she will or won’t do. Regardless of your schooling, you took a job as an assistant, so I would say that you are being unreasonable in your expectations.
Also, you might have told them that you wanted more legal than HR, but you took a job knowing there would be both. If you wanted to be a legal assistant exclusively, you should not have taken this job, but I’m not sure that would have helped, because again, you’d be a glorified secretary in most places.
What you are proposing is going around your supervisor to tell a VP that you are unhappy because you don’t want to be an assistant. What’s he going to tell you? That’s the job you were hired to do. Manage your frustration? Insubordination? Advocate for yourself? Wow! This shows youth and inexperience. I’d rethink this entire strategy.
Anonymous
She makes pretty clear in her post that she was not hired to be a glorified secretary, and that there are actual secretaries in the company. It sounds like she’s being forced into a role that is not the one she was hired for, and that her boss is a poor manager who does not invest in her employees’ success while other senior employees are patronizing and downright rude (“sweetie”). So I think your advice is way off base.
Anon
What is exactly ‘way off base’? No, it is not exactly clear that she was hired to be anything more than a glorified secretary. The only thing we know is that she wants more out of the job. ‘Assistant’ does not equal anything but helping those you work for do their jobs. Do you understand the old saying “s@#t rolls down hill”? Her supervisor might be giving her the ‘grunt work’ that she doesn’t want to do and keeping the work she wants to do. That’s how it works when you are the low man on the totem pole. I did my fair share of copying, filing, docketing, etc. in my first job out of law school. Why? Because I was hired to ‘assist’ the legal counsel in a new department at a small company. I did some legal work after about 6 months on the job, but that came after the grunt work. I had to learn how the business worked, set up the docketing software and enter all the data, set up files, proof read his work, etc. Not glamorous but I learned a heck of a lot.
I advised her not to go around her supervisor. I don’t know how that would fly in your company, but if I EVER went around my supervisor to complain about my job to a VP I’d get my a$$ handed to me.
Again, there are aspects of every job we don’t want to do, but it was no surprise to OP that she would be doing HR work. Just because she doesn’t like the ratio of legal to HR doesn’t mean it was a bate-and-switch or that her supervisor is a poor manager.
Chickie
I was in a similar situation and I actually did go to my VP about it – and in the end he did nothing. I don’t know if the fact that he was leaving for another position within the company shortly thereafter (apparently) was why or if he just didn’t care enough about an underling but the net result was definitely negative.
Tired Lawyer
I agree so much my teeth ache.
Tired Lawyer
To be clear: my agreement is not with “Anonymous,” who I think is way off base, but with Anon. who posted at 5:16 pm.
skippy pea
Agreee!!!with Anon @ 5:16!
KelliJ
Everything Anon at 5:16 said.
Maya
AMEN.
Maya
P.S. As a lawyer, if a grad student wanted to help me with legal issues I would have a hard time not laughing. You can’t practice law without a license, and the ways that a non-lawyer can help a lawyer are generally with the very kind of tasks that you think are beneath you. Sweetie is tacky, but it happens. The rest of your post makes it clear — the HR people think you’re too big for your britches, and they want to make it clear you are an assistant. If the legal folks aren’t giving you work, they either don’t have extra work (and need to stay busy themselves), don’t have work you are qualified for, or they may not have been happy with other work you did for them. Either way, the answer isn’t going around your boss — it’s sitting down with your boss to solicit feedback. You’ve been there 3 months, so a review at that point isn’t out of the question.
anon for this
J, I don’t know whether your frustration is reasonable or not, given the points the others have raised, but I feel for you because I’m going through something sort of similar—at least the “bait and switch” aspect you described.
I am an attorney, and I recently left a very demanding but also challenging and prestigious job, and I feel completely at sea in my new position. My hours are much better, but my job is nothing like how it was described in interviews. I was told this government office was hiring for a litigation-focused position (I’ve been a litigator for about 5 years and clerked for 3 years before that) with some advising/counseling responsibilities. I’ve been on the job for about 2 months, and I am feeling like I made a huge mistake. The only litigation going on is akin to small-claims court, and I used to do federal appeals. Worse, the “advising” is basically writing research memos on very basic subjects for my boss. The work could be done by a law student and is nothing like what was described during my 2 lengthy interviews.
Now I have more free time, but I have completely lost my fire—all the pride I used to take in really using my mind and working among really talented people. I needed to leave the pressure cooker environment, but what I ended up with feels like a huge step backward where I won’t learn anything or improve, and it’s depressing.
So, this was all basically a tangent, but I did really identify with accepting a position based on premises that just don’t materialize.
Anonymous
Ugh, get out! Try to move to a small firm or another government office?
anon for this
I think you’re right, but I *really* don’t want that to be the answer. Moving jobs was traumatic enough, and doing it again so soon is the last thing I want—both because it’s such a hard process and because it won’t look good on my resume to have such a short stint somewhere. I also had family reasons for trying to find a more humane job, and I don’t want to put my deflated ego above those good reasons.
But I am also afraid my skills will just dry up here and am scared to stay and see what happens. Maybe the problem is that I derive too much of my sense of self-worth out of my job. Or at least I used to.
I feel stuck.
m
anon for this: your post scares me, as i just accepted a new position! really hope i don’t end up in the same situation . . .
as to not looking good on your resume, i think there are ways around that.
if you’re really only there for a month or two, query whether you need to put it on your resume at all. (if you switch in this year, your old job is “BIG FIRM ASSOCIATE, 2005-2010” and your next is “WAY BETTER GOV’T JOB, 2010-present”.) another option is if you move to another job in the government, would there be a way to cast it so that it looks more like a promotion? i obvs don’t know your situation, but if the two jobs are in similar enough sounding depts/agencies, i suspect most people would assume looking at your resume that it was a promotion/ that you were presented with another opportunity early in your tenure. (so on the res something like “FEDERAL GOVERNMENT IN MARYLAND, 2010- present. [then beneath that] BETTER JOB IN BETTER DEP’T, NOVEMBER 2010 to present. CRAPPY JOB AT SUCKY AGENCY, SEPTEMBER-NOVEMBER 2010. “)
divaliscious11
Your skills are only going to dry up if you let them. How are you managing your career? Have you explored other opportunities or work available at your current position? Have you been there long enough to see where there is a gap in coverage or some other way you build some personal development into your goals for the year? If you really want to get into court, can you do some substantive pro bono, as you now have more free time? Have you begun to relationship build internally so that you can get the plum assignments etc…..? If not, you will be stuck, but if you put a plan of action together, you can make things better, and if not, then you move on, because it does you no good to stay someplace where you aren’t going to get any work satisfaction, but by then you will be able to a) be there long enough to really determine if it won’t work, and b) have a response when you interview elsewhere as to why your tenure there was so short without sounding like a whiner or a quitter.
As someone who has recently come to the realization that while I really like my job, I am not where I want to be, so in the process of planning my next move, I am evaluating where I have gaps in my skill set and going to seek opportunities to fill those gaps etc…. while looking for a position in the space where I really want to be.
Eponine
Hate to say this, but if it’s federal govt, this problem of having a very limited job function and not taking advantage of your skills is really common. You really are best trying to move on, and making sure in your next job that you’ll be doing the level of litigation you’re qualified to do.
Anonymous
I would say that whether or not your complaints are valid is very dependent on how much work experience you have. Grad school is not a free pass into management, unless the position you interview for is a specifically-defined management position. If you are 25 or under, without substantial work experience, guess what? You’re in an entry-level position. This is what happens in entry-level positions. It’s called “paying your dues.” In any organization, there is a period of dues-paying while people figure out who you are and what you are really capable of. I understand they may have told you something different in the interview. Could it be possible that they are testing you in this role to figure out whether or not you are capable of assisting the lead counsel in his work? In some companies, the “hazing period” of dues-paying is more intense than in others and people who fail to take – and complete – menial assignments with good grace and efficiency are automatically disregarded as qualified for higher-responsibility positions. Also, I am a little unclear how having a graduate degree, rather than a law degree, would qualify you to do legal work. I also feel obliged to point out that your desire to explore a law career is not the company’s problem, nor are they obligated to assist you with that. They have tasks they need completed and they are counting on you to do those tasks – that’s how they see it. They are more interested in getting their business needs met than helping you figure out whether you want to go to law school. Sorry if that sounds harsh.
I have to tell you, I don’t think meeting with the VP while your supervisor is out of town is a good idea. At all. I don’t know one manager who would NOT view that as a subordinate’s attempt to do an end run around them. Especially if your problem is with your supervisor, you have a responsibility to take your complaint to the supervisor first – I don’t care who interviewed you. In my company, going to a VP with a complaint about a supervisor – unless the complaint involves harassment – is viewed very, very dimly. Start with the supervisor and then elevate to the VP if/when you don’t get any redress.
I do think being excluded from team meetings about projects you’re working on is a problem. That is a good example of a concrete problem to bring up to your supervisor. Whining about “this isn’t what I thought I would be doing” is probably not going to help anything.
Unfortunately, I am not sure having meetings with anyone is really going to help. If you accepted an ill-defined job with a lower-level title, I would say you got what you signed on for. I learned the hard way, early on, not to accept a job unless the job duties, title and place on the org chart was defined for me, in writing, before accepting the job. If you want more responsibility and more respect, you are probably going to have to negotiate a new title that reflects your level in the organization, that will be communicated to all employees so they know you’ve been elevated. If your employers aren’t willing to do this – there’s a 90-day probationary period for a reason – it’s meant to be a time where both employees and employers can test the waters and make sure the fit is right. If it’s not, it’s not, and only rarely have I seen people “hang in there” in a situation like this and have it work out. I’d start looking elsewhere.
BigLaw Refugee
Agree that going around your supervisor is a bad idea. Also agree that as an “assistant,” you should expect to do a fair amount of scut work. I don’t think you can expect to get out of the HR scutwork; you knew there would be both, and it sounds like the legal side is having trouble thinking of things you can help with. The kind of minutiae you describe is a big part of almost EVERY job, all the way up to very senior management – either you are doing it, or you are figuring out who else should do it and checking to make sure they’ve done it right, which is not really much more interesting. By doing the scutwork, you get an opportunity to learn how things are set up and how these various systems fit into the work of your company – knowledge you need to have before you can run with a more substantive project.
All of that said, you can continue to ask for work on the legal side and/or let people know you are up for more substantive projects. It helps if you make clear that you are willing to do such things in addition to your regular duties. Once you have established yourself and gotten a reputation as a hard worker, you can at least start to say no to the scutwork from people you don’t report to, and you can also start to say things like “how about if I hand this off to [secretary / intern / etc.]? Don’t worry – I’ll show her how to do it / make sure she does it right /etc.]” You can even advocate for hiring a new person to do the scutwork – but only once you have convinced your supervisors that they *need* you for more substantive tasks. Don’t think about it from your perspective and what you were promised – that is irrelevant to them. Think about it from their perspective – what will make their lives easiest while also allowing things to get done they way they need to. Your case needs to be based on that, and it takes 6-12 months to prove yourself to the point where it will be clear to your supervisors that giving you substantive work will make their lives easier, and not harder.
Big Firm Lawyer
I hate to break it to you, but I spent the entire week making sure that “all relevant documentation is archived on the network.” In multiple locations, saved with several different titles, and in different formats.
I honestly think you might have to manage your expectations a bit. You were hired as an assistant, and it’s a great opportunity for you to learn the grunt work. The first few years out of law school, grunt work is pretty much all you’ll be doing anyway (but at a much, much higher salary).
Anonymous
As a government attorney for 15 years, I still make copies and do my own filing. I also routinely assign secretarial and paralegal work to junior lawyers. Life.
EC
Amen Big Firm Lawyer! I’m a third year associate, and my firm basically told us from the first day, “Paralegals are better at your job than you are right now. Learn from them, and then progress beyond them.” Sometimes you gotta learn the basics before you tackle the hard stuff. And sometimes, the basics just have to get done, and you are the pair of available hands.
Plus, I don’t know that being a “legal assistant” is really a good way to learn about being a lawyer. Legal assistants in my experience do word processing, copying, filing, and billing. Even paralegals get a lot of boring, repetitive work. I suspect the only way to learn legal work is to find a mentor in the legal world who will let you crash and burn as a legal research assistant for a while – I did it in college working for the DOJ and a legal nonprofit organization. Judges, law professors, even semi-retired partners who are writing a text book or a legal journal article are going to give you better experience than fixing typos in a client letter.
M
I hate to break it to you, but almost everyone has a graduate degree these days. It isn’t a golden ticket. I think you need to adjust your expectations considerably. If you want to advance, you need to pay your dues and prove you are part of a TEAM. By showing your supervisor and coworkers that you are dependable over time, you’ll earn the right to more responsibility.
And I’m sorry to say that your efforts to be more assertive by dictating what you will and won’t do is probably only shooting yourself in the foot. When just starting your career, you need to really focus on building up decent references and a solid reputation. So far, you sound like you’ve done nothing but complain or dump projects on other assistants. People aren’t going to recognize how smart you are or how potentially talented, if they don’t feel like they can trust you with the small stuff first or if they don’t like working with you or suspect others don’t. IMHO, you need to reframe how others view you. Those that advance not only are ambitious, but also have a can-do attitude.
I hate to say it, but your attitude frankly sounds lousy. Going around your supervisor to a VP when no one there even knows you yet is about the LAST thing I would do. It’s not like running to Mommy or Daddy to save you. The VP isn’t going to want anyone to waste his/her time on issues that aren’t of importance to the business. (And *shock* the VP is most likely going to support the supervisor more than you at this point. Why? Because the supervisor will already have built a reputation–what you need to be doing.) Honestly, doing that end run is only going to make you come out of it looking like you couldn’t handle what was thrown at you; it’s not that you weren’t ready intellectually, but emotionally.
s
i’m a firm attorney. we have a paralegal who routinely gives push back when asked to do things like make cover sheets or a fed ex label or scan things, complaining that secretaries should do such tasks. well when she’s asked to do these things, there’s always a reason for it. either the secretaries are busy with other things, are about to leave for the day, have screwed up the task in question in the past, etc. etc. the upshot is not that the attorneys simply don’t ask her to do these “secretarial” tasks, its that they avoid working with her and specifically request NOT to have her on their cases.
i’m sorry you’re bored in your job, but don’t underestimate being a team player. if you’re an assistant, your job is to assist. my advice would be to smile and say “sure!” to whatever you’re being asked to do, and if you’re not seeing any change or more responsibility after 6 months, get out.
J
OP here – thanks for all the responses. A very interesting spectrum of views.
The basic message I am taking from these comments is that while there are some real issues with my job/the company, I should focus on doing my job well and ignoring them for at least the next few months (or leaving).
I consider the issues with the company to be the following:
1) No defined job description or incumbent in the position. I did actually write a job description several weeks ago, and received no feedback one way or another from anyone, so I assumed it was acceptable. Regardless of the outcome at this company, the lesson to learn is to ensure I get more specifics at the interview/offer phase than I did here (as Anonymous at 9:25pm posted).
2) The office culture seems content to let people stagnate in their positions. Most people have 10+-year tenures and seem to be doing the same jobs as when they were hired. The company is family-owned, so there’s really no opportunity to progress further than management-level positions unless you’re a part of that family, and there’s very little turnover at any level. This seems like another reason to leave, but not something I’ll be able to change in the meantime.
The series of comments about unrealistic expectations was very helpful, and I thank the posters who told me to get over myself. The rational part of me has been telling the moody, emotional part the same thing since I started the job, but it’s good to hear outside voices confirm that instinct. Whatever the problems with the company, I’m not going to be able to change them, so it’s a question of putting up with it or getting out. I’m just trying to work out which problems are with the company and which are with me. The 6-12-month introductory period a lot of people mentioned is a helpful guideline.
How about this as a modified approach? Still meet with the VP, but present it more as a “check-in” session, where I ask for some preliminary feedback and mention my enthusiasm to take on any additional projects he may have? This would avoid the “going around the supervisor” issue (which I had thought of and was one of the concerns that motivated me to post in the first place, rather than just have the meeting). I have already asked the supervisor for feedback but she didn’t have any, and the company is small enough that this request to the VP would be appropriate.
I think there is potential for a thread discussing the difference between professionals and staff within an office. Give the comments from several posters about young women like myself having lousy attitudes, I attribute some of my “unrealistic expectations” to reading NGDGTCO, which told me that the tasks I am being asked to do in my job are demeaning. It appears that other posters also have this issue, such as the clerk in the thread about preparing food below. A lot of posters here clearly distinguish between the professionals and staff, and I’m interested in what criteria you use for that.
Eponine
Your modified approach sounds good to me. I think, though, that this sounds like sort of a toxic work environment where management doesn’t really invest in their employees and you’ll never move up, so you should start looking for new opportunities. You raised the issue of not having defined job duties and wrote a proposed job description and no one even responded? That’s ridiculous. I mean, even for purely self-centered reasons, a manager should care about her subordinate’s job satisfaction. I think your instincts are right that, if you aren’t hired as a secretary, it is not good to be relegated to a secretarial roll; however, often the only solution is to get out and get a new job, especially at a small, family-owned company where no one ever moves up.
As for your second question about professionals v. staff – at my agency, there are a few people in the position of receptionist, administrative assistant or office manager who are full-time administrative staff with no promotion potential (well, there’s one office manager and if she left an AA could be promoted, I guess). The rest of us are professional staff, including people at the assistant level all the way up to senior management; our positions have promotion potential. Someone with your title of HR assistant would be the most junior level of the HR team who might get tasked with the dullest HR work, but she wouldn’t be answering phones, making copies, etc, because that would be the job of the HR department’s admin assistant. At a law firm, it’ll be more evenly divided with non-lawyers as “staff” and lawyers as “professionals.” Hope that helps somewhat.
Anon
“I attribute some of my “unrealistic expectations” to reading NGDGTCO, which told me that the tasks I am being asked to do in my job are demeaning.”
I haven’t read this book, but it’s beginning to really irk me. Asking you to help with a project or do some filing is not by definition demeaning. It’s certainly not demeaning if that’s what you were hired to do. It is demeaning when you are a professional female attorney, let say, and you are asked to do certain tasks no male attorney would ever be asked to do, like filing or docketing or dropping off the mail.
And you really can’t figure out what the difference is between professional and staff? What school did you go to so I never send my children there?
E Anon
Yikes, Anon. I think her post was extremely thoughtful, especially after so many people had been laying into her?! Where did YOU go to school, so I can supplement my child’s manners if s/he ever goes there?
Big Firm Lawyer
Generally speaking, professionals have business cards, attend meetings, have assistants, meet with clients, make staffing decisions, have someone else answer the phone, and are paid a salary rather than an hourly wage. Despite all that, you’re support staff, because your title is “assistant”, and that’s not a modifier for VP.
Anon
THIS!
Arachna
Please keep in mind that though posters have some good points… they might also have some bad points.
It drives me a little crazy how fast women are to say to other women to “not to expect so much” and to “settle”. I’ve seen men be way more aggressive and assertive than a woman would be… and it pays off.
Don’t make waves, be a good employee… is not bad advice exactly but it might not be the best advice either. And honestly, it gets given way more to women than to men. And that has its consequences.
I’m curious as to what kind of tasks you would like to do?
I would make sure that anything someone asks you to do, gets done well. That you are nice to everyone. That you make sure that you have a good reference from someone. Don’t refuse to do anything.
But, I would push for more interesting assignments. As long as you are scrupulously polite what’s the worst that can happen? They’ll say no. You don’t plan to stay in this job long anyway. Maybe make sure not to imply in any way to the VP that your direct supervisor isn’t listening to you but tell him that you have some time available and were wondering if he had any projects like X, Y etc. etc.
J
Sorry this is coming late, we’re well past the weekend now!
Arachna, that’s basically the strategy I am trying to take, and I’ll make a stronger effort to do so without being whiny. I certainly haven’t refused to do anything, and would never do so, but it had been frustrating me nonetheless. FWIW, this week has actually been better so far than previous ones — maybe I just needed to share my concerns.
I would like to have a job similar to what EC described above, with more of a research focus. I didn’t go to law school, but took several law electives as part of my grad school curriculum, and interned at a non-profit law firm for a summer (with extensive trial prep and observation), so I’m not a complete stranger to that world. I presented this idea to the counsel and VP during my interviews, and they encouraged me and said it would be helpful to them. A big part of my concern with the job is that this aspect has not presented itself at all. I definitely don’t mind doing SOME admin work, but was really hoping not to spend all my time on that. Nevertheless, I’ll be patient and look for an opportunity to suggest some research.
I’d again like to thank the people who took my questions seriously and responded. I have taken your comments to heart and I’m planning to save a copy of the thread to refer back to when I get annoyed again. The attacks on the Youth of Today may or may not be warranted, but please accept that most of us do try, and greatly appreciate your mentorship.
michelle
revised approach sounds great – and kudos to you for taking the criticism here to heart and building on it; I have a greatly increased respect for you and your maturity from your original post.
a lawyer
I’ve noticed recently that I seem to be the only woman at legal events wearing a matched suit, skirt or pantsuit. Everyone is wearing suits with jackets in a different color or pattern than the bottom. Is this the new trend? Is this appropriate for court? Or, and I’m in the deep south, is this just another “southern thing?”
The unmatched suits do look nice and professional. So, second question, where do you buy such? J. Crew, BR, Ann Taylor, Brooks Bros. all seem to be limited to matched suits.
argh my eyes
I was told that if you wear unmatched pieces, each piece should not look as though its crying out for the ‘other half’ of the suit you left behind – so, totally different textures etc are a yay. I haven’t tried this myself yet but I am going to do so come the start of the week: dark(ish) grey wool/cahsmere skirt, black silk blouse and a magenta-pink jacket with black heels and a black bag. I’m hoping the black will bring everything together.
a lawyer
Yes, this sounds exactly like the kind of outfit I am describing, and your ideas sound great to me.
Diva452
I “came of age” in the 80’s when we wore power suite and blouses with ties at the neck. Over the past 20plus years I’ve seen a trend moving from power dressing to dressing like a man to frilly and girly and not dressing up at all. There are just so many more options for women than men when it comes to dressing professionally. I work in finance and interact with my peers and clients so I need to be polished and professional but I do not like to wear the matchy matchy suit every day, mostly because it does remind me of how we tried to dress like men in the 80’s. I mix it up with suit separates mostly from Talbots, Brooks Brothers and St John. I always wear a jacket and mostly wear pants just because I’m more comfortable in them (no nasty leg shaving in the morning..LOL) I see nothing wrong with mix and match as long as it’s not borderline casual. Stay in the dark range of colors and you should be fine.
mille
I always buy separates to wear like that. If I take a suit and break it up, it always looks like I am wearing half a suit. Separates that obviously didn’t come as a suit look best that way.
I haven’t worn a matching suit, even for a jury trial, in a long time. That, however, is because I work in a small county and once I found out i could get away with it, I got a little lazy about wearing the suits. The partner in my firm wear sweaters instead of jackets– and one female attorney (not from our office) even wears a raincoat to court sometimes. I will wear a matching suit for certain client meetings, and to law related events. Anytime I need to feel extra confident, nothing beats a suit.
MelD
I’m in Florida and have been mixing and matching separates since I finished college in the ’90s. Usually I’ll just see a jacket I really like without matching pants and end up having a fun outfit. I think the key to making them look good is that they don’t necessarily look like they go as part of a suit. The jackets tend to be a little bit more fun than traditional suit jackets. I have a lot of jackets from Loft/AT and a few I’ve gotten on sale elsewhere on deep discount.
Anonymous
You mean suits that are two pieces purchased together, but are different colors, right? Tahari ASL and Anne Klein both tend to have good options. I buy them at Filene’s or Macy’s. I
It could be appropriate for court, but I’d see what other women are wearing first. It’s a more feminine look than your traditional navy skirt suit for sure. do think this is a bit more common in the south, and up north it’s more common for older women. But I like the look too and wear it.
nonA
I have a couple tweedy jackets that I wear with a skirt that matches one of the tweed colors. I think it looks best when the jacket isn’t a traditional power suit jacket – think more Chanel-esque, 3/4 sleeves, cropped, etc.
I think of them as a “casual suit” – not something I wear to a really important meeting or would wear to court, but perfect for day-to-day wear and a nice way to mix things up a little.
JessC
What exactly do you mean by “legal events”? If you’re meaning networking events, CLEs, conferences, etc., then non-matching suit pieces are probably ok.
I would say that for court, however, you should stick with the matching suits (though there may be some exceptions depending on your city/county as mille pointed out, above). I work on the FL gulf coast and most everyone wears matching suits to court, though you may see some non-matching pieces for non-jury court appearances (docket call, hearings, etc.).
s
agree with jessc.
Liz
Is it just me or is that mannequin wearing LEGGINGS with that dress? Please tell me I’m wrong!
MelD
I think it’s black pantyhose with the shiny mannequin plastic showing through.
nonA
I think its patterned tights. Love the dress!
Chickie
Was too distracted by the fact that it looks like an overpriced drapery wrapped around her…
bag question
Corporettes (or those who bring lunch to work), what sort of bag do you carry your food in? I’m trying to stick to taking lunches to work to save the $$$, because the salad and sandwich I make at home are invariably healthier and because being an intern doesn’t pay that much :(. Right now I have a cute little tote that’s similar to the ones here and feel that’s a bit too girly… though I really like mine.
http://www.cathkidston.co.uk/c-479-book-bags.aspx
I feel something darker is probably in order. I try and dress well – lots of silk and wool/cashmere so feel that my cutesy lunch bag looks a little silly alongside that kind of attire. At the same time, I have no desire to carry my food in a *nice*/leather tote. I know it hardly matters being just an intern but anyway…!
Tina
For what its worth, I have a Vera Bradley lunch tote in the Night and Day pattern. I like it because it’s black and white, which looks a little more professional than bright color lunch tote. Here’s the link:
http://www.verabradley.com/product/Lets-Do-Lunch/154875/defaultColor/Blue+Rhapsody/p/154875.uts
I also like it because it’s a soft bag, but insulated, and at the end of the day I can through it in my large black tote bag or on a day I don’t have a big tote, I can fold it up and put in a larger purse. I take the train to work, so I usually have my work papers, maybe a book or two and my lunch tote in a much larger professional tote bag, and then at lunch I just take it out and go eat lunch. We have a lunch room and for many reasons: collegiality, sanitation or mental health, we are strongly discouraged from eating at our desks. At first I was a little bit irritated about being forced to stop working and leave my desk, BUT I do find I’m more productive taking 15-30 minutes, eating, chatting and then going back to my desk refreshed. Sorry, I digress.
I had a hard time finding a lunch tote that didn’t look childish, but I am completely against using plastic bags and throwing them out daily (which, sadly, is what some of the men do!) I’ve also received MANY compliments on it.
Another Sarah
I have a couple of these that I got chez Target that have worked really well:
http://bit.ly/c3U5AV
I’m not a person who would give a second thought to a slightly girly lunchbox, but yours are a bit more on the floral side than I would normally go for anyway. :-) However, in finding that one, I also found this one that looks much more professional:
http://bit.ly/dAlH8a
Both at Target :-)
i'm nobody
try Built!
http://www.builtny.com
Anon
I have a Built and love it. It’s colorful and cheery, but also very easy to clean. Because they initially made wine and beer totes too I don’t think of it as being childish.
ES
I recently got one from built and I love it – got mine at Costco so it came with a TON of containers. You can pick either a solid color or one of their more fun designs – some are more girly than others. Mine is polka dots, so I clearly don’t mind the girly end.
Another Laura
I have two Built lunch bags to match different outfits. I love them. They go in the washing machine so they don’t end up smelling like stale food. I use them for picnics, sailing, on plane trips. Very useful.
AEK
Love my Built now but did not like the chemical smell it had at first. It goes away.
Chicago K
I just through my food into a grocery bag and then into my shoulder bag. These lunch bags are cute, but don’t they take up a lot of room inside another bag? or do you carry it separately?
Chicago K
and by through i meant throw…lol
E
Same here! Items go into a plastic bag, which go into my larger bag (and then, as necessary, into the fridge at the office).
Chickie
I have a blah lunch bag but I put it in a larger bag – the benefit of that tote is that it also carries my extra shoes on snowy/rainy days, papers, etc… so I wouldn’t discount its value!
michelle
I don’t like carrying a separate lunch bag, so I put mine into a plastic grocery store bag which I stuff into my regular tote bag, my commute is not so long that I need insulation. If I did, I would probably get the most “serious” looking insulated lunch bag I could find and stuff THAT into my tote, since I don’t personally like the casualness of the patterend lunch bags with a very professional work look. And since I don’t like carrying a million bags either, I draw the line at purse plus tote or briefcase, so getting lunch into the tote is key.
Anon
My judge’s administrative assistant keeps asking my (female) co-clerk and me to do things that clerks really shouldn’t have to do. (“I brought KFC for lunch. C’mon and make the Judge a plate, girls.”) She’s in poor health so some of it seems semi-legitimate (she has trouble lifting the full watering can so now apparently it’s my co-clerk’s job to water every plant in chambers). On the other hand, I have my distinct suspicions that there is no way she would ask male clerks to help make the judge a plate. My judge is super hands-off and has worked with her for over 30 years, and he wouldn’t have the faintest idea how to handle it if we went to him directly, and I honestly think it would upset him on a general level. Any thoughts as to the best way to deflect her when/if it comes up again?
Anon
My two cents — if this is only a year-long clerkship and the secretary seems to genuinely mean well and (most importantly) if there are no other male clerks that she is specifically treating differently than you and your female co-clerk, I would just let it go. Working in a small chambers is different than working in an office environment. When I clerked, I did a number of things that I would never do now in a law firm (brought in baked cookies, bought my judge a xmas gift, got people coffee).
Anonymous
Honestly, is this that big of a deal? I clerked for a federal appellate judge, and although I was never asked to make his lunch plate, I would have been happy to do it. I think it creates a familiarity/intimacy that’s kind of nice. My judge’s AA was totally from another generation and assumed that I (and not my male co-clerks) would do a lot of the more “womanly” tasks, but I didn’t let it bother me. You are not going to change her. Chambers s a small environment, everyone is close, and you need to have a good relationship with everyone. I would not complain about things that, in the scheme of what you are doing intellectually on a daily basis, really don’t matter or require much effort from you. You know who you are: you are a smart, successful young lawyer. If a 60-year-old secretary wants you to help her make lunch, take the five minutes to do it and make her happy. Remember that the judge trusts her a lot, they are very close, and in a lot of ways she runs the place. Become her friend.
Lawgirl
I agree. Me and my co-clerk (male) had to do “proper care and feeding” for our 80 year old judge: We arrived every morning at 7:30am and had his tea ready when he arrived, brought him lunch from the cafeteria (he ordered same thing everyday), and helped him get downstairs to his driver every evening (he had booku bucks and could afford a chaueffeur, among other things…). But we got perks too! He also gave us almost 3 weeks off for the Christmas/New Year Holidays, invited us over to his beach house, brought his grandkids to chambers every now and again, and treated everyone in chambers to a personal birthday cake and wine. Gosh talking about this makes me miss him & his irascible ways (RIP, Judge!)
AEK
I clerked too, and this sounds familiar to me and not at all disturbing. Our chambers atmosphere was very much a team or even a family. I was honored to be working for my judge, who was amazing and brilliant. She was also not a spring chicken, so anything any of us could do to make her life easier, we did. And the administrative assistant, who had worked for the judge for ages, was exactly the person to tell us how we could do that.
I learned so much from clerking, and the professional opportunities that grew out of my experience have been great. But even better was holding my (now) husband’s hands and standing in front of my judge when she married us with tears of joy in her eyes—4 years after my clerkship.
You shouldn’t let yourself be taken advantage of in any situation. But please don’t be so defensive about being owed a certain level of respect that you miss out on the truly special and human aspects of being a clerk. I hope you will develop a relationship with your judge that makes you say, years later, that you were honored to fix him a plate.
AE
I agree with what the other repliers said. I clerked and was lucky that our judge’s secretary was a gem, but other judicial secretaries in our court were flat out nasty to the law clerks and others in general. Things could be a lot worse. Unlike law firm secretaries, judicial secretaries have very secure jobs and along with the judges are usually set in their ways. Judges are often very deferential to their secretaries, while in the scheme of things the clerks are just a flash in the pan. There are certain ways to navigate some of these things. For instance I let the judge I clerked for believe I was a very bad driver so that he would not ask me to drive him home, but I was more than happy to call him a taxi. But for what you described, I think it would be best if you just went along with it.
Tired Lawyer
This is just another of an ongoing series of young posters in the last few days who have a sense of entitlement that is not merited. I know you are a star in your own life, and you have your own facebook page and followers, and that your parents love you totally and say “good job!” when you do anything right, but you need to get some perspective. Life is not a movie. In one scene you are not the new just- out-of-school-lawyer, and the next scene you have the corner office and the awed respect of your underlings.
Although you evidently don’t get this just yet, people are not amazed because you now have a law/graduate degree. Most of the people you associate with also have these degrees. The difference is, they’ve been around longer and have had a life, with experience. Also, the judge’ s
secretary, who has worked for him for decades, should be respected.
In real life, respect comes with time, and with accomplishments, and after you’ve made embarrassing mistakes and learned from them. I’m sorry that I am ranting — I know I am — but I include in this post the young woman who was disappointed that her female co-workers didn’t discuss “important issues” and worse, didn’t ask more questions about her, the new employee at her welcoming lunch, and the woman who felt she was disrespected after working only three months in her position as an assistant.
In short, help the judge with his dam* lunch, and get over yourself.
Rant over. For the moment.
KelliJ
Agree 100%.
Temporarily Anon
+1
It seems like the spawn of the helicopter parenting trend are getting their shiny new degrees and hitting the workplace. No more grade inflation, no more SuperMommy coming to your rescue, no more kudos just because you showed up.
I’ve been wondering for years what they would look like and how they would act in the real world…
Little Lurker
I understand you’re frustrated, but I think this is uncalled for and hurtful.
Generalizing about generations can go both ways. If you don’t want to hear the young ‘uns complaining about the sins and excesses of the boomer generation, please don’t refer to those younger than you as “spawn”.
I agree that there is a fair amount of entitlement among my peers. I also know plenty of students and young adults who work their frickin’ butts off and never complain, nor look to SuperMommy to fix things. I am not convinced that there is any more entitlement in my generation than in any other — the technology that makes 20-somethings lazy can make 40-somethings quite lazy too.
If you get all your information about the “Me-Generation” from the New York Times, then you need to reconsider. Be mad at this poster if you must, but don’t take it out on me and all of my peers.
I don’t see how this comment (“Temporarily Anon” at 10:31 AM) has anything to do with the helpful advice I have come to associate with the blog. It’s just rude.
AE
Right on Little Lurker.
I had to look up what a helicopter parent is. It’s pretty far from my experience. I think the “Me-Generation” can also be characterized as saddled for decades with student loans, rising tax liabilities and national debt, and personally financially burdened with caring for their elderly parents who did not save enough on their own.
Tired Lawyer
I get all of my information about the “me” generation from having been an attorney for more than three decades. That means, I have worked with attorneys born in the 1950s, 1960s, 1970s, and 1980s. My position is not based on the NYT, and it’s not based on the legal commentators that refer to the newest attorneys as the “slackoisie.”
It’s based on my personal experience of having dealt with several decades of new attorneys. I’m also not talking boomer v. “me” generation. B-T-W, boomers also have extraordinary burdens: private school and college tuition for our children, our own mortgages and daily payments, including saving for retirement, and our parents’ problems. My own both have Alzheimers and it is a nightmare.
I have observed from the newest lawyers and paralegals an aspect I haven’t seen from those brought up in the preceding decades. To wit; an unearned sense of entitlement, and along with that a lack of respect for those of us who have gone before you.
I think my advice is helpful. The fact that you think I am rude kind of makes my point. How dare I point out that growth and progress take time? And that you are not immediately eligible for professional respect just because you are you. What I am clearly not saying, however, is that you won’t one day earn that respect, that corner office, that inclusion that you seek.
Peace and good will to you.
v
Yes, but you were younger when you interacted with lawyers from previous generations; of course you wouldn’t see the divide between themselves and you as strongly, because there wasn’t one. People have been complaining about how “Youth today have no manners” for literally thousands of years – there’re quotes from Socrates to that effect. The world has not yet ended. The current generation of new young professionals isn’t going to end it either, and it’s insulting to everyone to pretend like they’re some special breed of new entitled instead of just young people who need to learn their way around the workplace the way young people always need to learn their way around the workplace.
Also, keep in mind that this is a place where people can anonymously vent and seek feedback. Judging their entire lives and work habits on a few lines they write here about their frustrations is not particularly fair.
divaliscious11
Brava….. And at what point does it end??? I just had an attorney who reports to me get upset because I bumped em’s meeting (because a Exec VP need me to review something). Seriously???? If my feelings got hurt every time I got bumped by my boss and/or GC, I’d need chronic pain management! If you are junior, every meeting should be penciled in, because nothing you are managing is that critical!!! It isn’t about you personally!
anon
It kinda sounds like YOU need to get over yourself, Tired Lawyer.
Eponine
Do you have male co-clerks and you and the other female clerk are being singled out for these things? If there are only female clerks, and if the tasks aren’t interfering seriously with your ability to get the work you’re assigned by the judge done, just keep the peace with the admin assistant and don’t bother your judge.
If the admin asst is singling out female clerks and not asking male ones, then the next time she asks you to help, say “you know, Male Clerk hasn’t helped in a while, and I’m pretty busy today. I think it’s his turn, don’t you?” And of course, if helping the admin asst is actually interfering with your assigned duties, tell her politely that you’re swamped and will help when you’re less busy, but can’t manage it today.
I also should point out, as an experienced attorney, that every position involves some admin work no matter how senior you are, and more importantly, that helping others with their assigned tasks will earn you a considerable amount of goodwill, which you may need later. So long as you’re able to get your own work done and you’re not being relegated to a secretary/submissive female role (as discussed in NGDGTCO), you should help as requested and get in the good graces of your colleagues, including colleagues who are below you on the totem pole.
Anonymous
Tired Lawyer said it all.
Anon
Just to reply to some concerns mentioned:
No male clerks, just two women.
We are swamped with work, generally, and this does take us away from our actual responsibilities.
This is not something our judge wants us to do of his own accord (his AA recently came back into the office after an extended leave, which is when all of this started). I think this is the sticking point for me–I do plenty of admin-y work/stuff (making my own copies, helping out people from the Clerk’s office, getting supplies from the supply closet, dealing w/ OSCAR, bringing in baked goods for chambers, driving around with the judge occasionally, will buy everyone presents when I leave, etc. etc. etc.) but this specific stuff just feels sort of domestic and also unnecessary, especially since it’s stuff that NO ONE did before the AA got back. (The judge has never, ever asked us to prepare any kind of food for him before. I don’t think he likes for anyone to see him eat.) So if you want to lump me in with some sort of Spawn-of-Helicopter schema you’ve got going, go nuts. But you’ve got the wrong girl. Thanks for the input, though, from everyone who didn’t get their unders in a knot over Kids Today.
Anon
Yikes. I was the first Anon to post. I think what we were basically all saying is: don’t worry about this, enjoy the ride & family atmosphere with your judge, you’ll have the entire rest of your professional career to be concerned about projecting confidence and professionalism. Your post initially came off as concerned that you were pigeonholing yourself or giving the impression that you were not as professional as you thought you were. We all wanted to set you mind at ease. If it’s truly a situation where you cannot get your work done because of the extra responsibility or tasks, tell the secretary that honestly. If it’s just that you don’t want to do it, don’t do it. But if you do it, know that it’s part of the unique experience in chambers and no one who has read NGDGTCO will judge you for it.
I honestly am beginning to wish none of us here ever read that book. I think it’s more of a curse than a blessing.
MOR
I agree about NGDGTCO. I read the book, enjoyed it, and took something from it, but it isn’t my personal bible, and I don’t believe it should fulfill that role for anyone – especially if you’re working in a smaller office.
Eponine
If it’s interfering with your actual duties, politely tell the AA that you aren’t available to help her. If it persists, then perhaps raise with the judge that AA does not seem physically able to perform all her duties but you don’t have time to help, so perhaps he could hire a temp to help her out until she regains her strength (I assume her leave was medical? I think you mentioned this above). Don’t frame it as a not wanting to help/feeling belittled issue – frame it as an issue of your not being able to help while still getting your work done, but you’re concerned about AA’s well-being. It sounds like she does genuinely need help, and you aren’t really in a position to provide that help. But she probably wouldn’t go to the judge herself asking for someone to help her, and that’s why she just asks you.
Eponine
Oh, also? Not all of us Olds think like tiredlawyer and the others above. I personally find my younger colleagues to be just as competent, cheerful and hardworking as my colleagues who are closer to my age and older than me. Sometimes younger colleagues need guidance, for instance on what to wear or how to behave, but that’s what mentoring is for and I for one don’t mind being a mentor. I’m grateful for the women who mentored, and continue to mentor, me.
anon
Thank you, Eponine, for being a voice of reason.
Anonymous
I am honestly having far more problems with the boomers on my staff who are “tired” and feel like they can sit back and coast because they have “experience.” I hear much less complaining from my Gen Y employees because most of them are grateful to just have a gdamn job!
Pjbhawaii
. . . yeah, “experience.” Who needs it? How dare anyone point out they have any ? And, how rude that these experienced people just sit back and “coast.”
B-T-W,. . . Where is this place where ungrateful people with experience “coast?” Can I work there?
Chickie
I’ve had these experiences – the “would you really ask me to do this if I was a man” and I try to not buck the system unless it’s clearly going to lead to more such tasks, if it’s a job you’re going to have for more than a year, or if it’s lowering the level of respect your colleagues have for you…
EG
I can see how this feels awkward for you, but the judge and the administrative assistant have worked together for 30 years and she has some strong ideas on how he should be “taken care of.” She may or may not ask a male clerk to do these things, but I really think this is more about her than you. You can’t win / change this one, but some graceful help and compassion will go a long way & make you feel better about it too.
My Mom used to work with a really difficult older woman, but was always super nice and professional–her thought was that her own mother was a bit wacky so my Mom treated this difficult woman the same way she hoped people treated my not too nice grandmother.
houda
I need advice from fellow corporettes on knitwear care.
I had a previous thread about caring for cashmere sweaters.
Now, I have just bought few cashmere-blend pieces, so they are silk-cotton-cashmere blends. While I would expect them to be less delicate than pure silk or pure cashmere, I would love to know how to care for them.
To me this is a major splurge as I am upgrading my wardrobe. Also I am a person who wears everything I buy until it falls into pieces.
So mu questions are:
1- how many wears do you use your sweaters before washing them? and for cardigans?
2- I love how the sweaters feel so soft and warm against my skin so I do not wear any under layer, is this OK with such blend fabric or is it a no-no
3- there is no way to find a special cashmere soap in my country. I have heard some people use baby shampoo to gently wash their sweaters, anyone was lucky with this method? note: unfortunately, dry cleaning is not an option for me
houda
oups, second line I meant to say “I had read a previous thread about ..”
MelD
I almost always wear a tissue tee or some other underlayer to limit how often I have to wash my sweaters. Usually I let them air out a bit once I get home and then they’re good to go for another wear.
You can wash cashmere/silk blends with no problem using baby shampoo or other delicate washes. I have done this many times in the bathtub. When you are finished washing them, you want to dry them out in a towel. I usually wrap the sweater in a towel and then stomp on it to get the excess water out and then hang to dry. For my silk blend sweaters, I just put them in the washing machine for a short cycle and hang them to dry. I have been doing this for years and they look fine. For that I just use my regular detergent which is the free/clear kind with no dyes/fragrances.
Anonymous
I’d wear another layer under it. Sweat, deodorant and lotion can all damage or discolor fabrics so I prefer to have something under my nicer pieces.
I honestly just use regular detergent (an all natural one though) and handwash things, but you may not want to go that route.
Anon
I almost never wear a layer under my cashmere or silk sweaters. Silk is usually trickier to wash. Cashmere does best when washed with a gentle detergent in a sink. If you dry clean it, it loses its softness.
houda
thanks all.
I have worn a sweater a couple times already so whenever I wash it using baby shampoo, I will let you know how it turned out!
Parisienne
I would like a restaurant recommendation – where do you go where you can actually wear a dress like that? The dress is scrumptious, but for what occasion?
'Nonymous
Industry cocktail receptions (my feet are screaming, remembering such an occasion in Las Vegas).
anon
I’m a senior associate at a big law firm. I’m something of a protege of a partner who we’ll call Joe. Joe is 60 something, extremely gregarious, and flirts with anything that moves and some things that don’t. He’s also a very talented lawyer, with a lot of really interesting work. I am a rather extreme introvert, and we actually work very well together: he talks and I nod.
As a practical matter, I do a huge amount of work with another Joe disciple, a partner in his early 40’s who we’ll call Mike. I’ve worked with Mike on Joe’s deals for years. He’s a fantastic teacher and I love working with him. I have a lot of respect for him and consider him on of my closest colleagues. Mike is emphatically not a flirt, at least not with me or that I’ve ever seen.
Finally, there’s another 40-something partner, Bill, who I periodically work with but had never met in person (he’s in another office).
Yesterday it came to pass that Bill, Mike, and I were all in the same office and I met Bill for the first time. I left the conference room to get some files, and on my way back in overheard a conversation that I’m quite sure that I wasn’t supposed to overhear.
Bill: She’s a pretty girl.
Mike: Yeah. She’s one of Joe’s girls.
Bill: is she sleeping with him?
Mike: No.
And then I walked back in and we kept working. And: Aaaaarrrrgggghhhh!
I don’t know if I’m looking for advice or just needed to tell the story. I was floored, in no small part because the conversation was so very, very nonchalant.
I’m 35, very married, with two kids. I’m not terrible looking, but I’m not really anything to write home about. On the perpetual Corporette skirt-length debate, I see nothing wrong with a skirt that hits the top of my knee (versus the middle or bottom), but I don’t go shorter than that at work. And I NEVER flirt with Joe, Mike, or anyone else.
Totally different context, but I am reminded of Susan Sarandon’s rant in Bull Durham: “I don’t want to be cute! Baby ducks are cute!”
CFM
Eek awkward. Your going to get a big range of comments on this, but here is my take since you seem to have very high praises for Mike, and it seems like Bill is out of the picture at work. Could it be that when Mike said “She’s one of Joe’s girls” he meant in the protege way? Not that its the best way to phrase it, and I have issues with him using the word girls, but I could see myself saying “oh yeah, he’s one of Bob’s guys” to refer to a younger male associate working as a protege of Bob if it was a situation where each older partner has a group of younger associates. And that Bill misinterpreted “one of Joe’s girls” to mean something more sinister. Could that have been why it was so nonchalant? Normally I would say to speak about the incident, but what you said about Mike seems to not fit with the situation that occurred.
Anonymous
Bill sounds like an a-hole, but at least you know Mikes a good guy.
Anonymous
Oh man. I LOL’d at your story. Which is not helpful. But sometimes men can be so freakin’ clueless.
I rarely believe in this but in this case I would let it go. It would be a much bigger deal if Mike had said something salacious in response to Bill’s comment. Mike stood up for you. A flat “no” should put an end to the questions from Bill. If Bill says/does anything else, I would do something. But hopefully this is a one-time incident and now the matter has been put to rest. And FYI, please don’t spend one more second agonizing over what you may or may not have done to give Bill “an impression.” You did nothing. You said nothing. It’s not about how you dress. You should change nothing about yourself. I say again. Sometimes men can be freakin’ clueless.
AE
I agree. Bill’s comment says a lot about him, but nothing about you. You didn’t cause this. I hate to think how Bill probably treats his female subordinates. Maybe Joe the Flirt has a history of relations with other female co-workers that Bill is aware of. The plot thickens. But in any event you did nothing to give any impression to cause Bill to make that comment, and it sounds like you handled this very professionally.
Attorney in SA, TX
I agree with AE. You’re worried something you did caused this conversation? They probably assume Joe sleeps with everyone because he’s such a flirt – and he probably has before! Not your fault he has a reputation as a womanizer. Keep up the good work and soon they’ll realize why you’re in the picture – the brains.
bizzy
This.
divaliscious11
YIKES!!!
Okay, now breathe…. Unless this starts to impact you professionally, I’d just assume Bill was being a guy, and guys think about sex, and talk about when they think its safe to do so… Clearly Mike and Joe respect you, and your work.
And it is okay to be cute, so long as that is not the only language used to define you!
Suze
Help! I just found out that hubs is taking me to a political fundraiser tomorrow night – very small, like 20-25 people, the candidate (gubernatorial) and a really well known Key West-y singer (Margaritaville, Cheeseburger in Paradise). What do I wear?? Jeans are a nonstarter – notwithstanding what the entertainer will wear, the guests will be more formal. Preppy circle skirt or khakis w/twinset type get-up, no. Nice sundress/donna morgany/maggy londony dress, okay, but that seems so *boring.* LBD would be too much. I am basically uninspired and unimaginitive when it comes to this type of thing, I need suggestions from you guys! And I have until 3 pm Sunday to get it all together – yikes!!
MelD
I’d go for something fun and tropical looking, not boring/country club. It just screams tropical theme to me.
jr. prof
Lilly Pulitzer or other bright sundress – maybe maxi dress? – and lots of bangles. Gold or silver sandals, maybe with “gems” in them. Updo. Sort of exotic/bright/ festive.
ceb
I second the Lilly Pulitzer idea.
Anonymous
An LBD is never too much. But is it still hot there? It seems like a good occasion to wear linen trousers with a fabulous strappy top.
MelD
People don’t really do the LBD thing in Suze’s city- would not recommend it.
Suze
No LBD, exactly right MelD, esp not for this. As it happens, my neighbor has a cute little strappy dress in bright-ish, but fall-like colors and *yay* we are the same size – I think I am going with it – I don’t have the techno capability to photograph and link it, but it’s sort of an empire waist, spaghetti strap and has black at top, then the skirt has a kind of tropical but abstract color combo involving gold, burgundy and a couple of other similar shades – will look nice with black peep toe slingbacks (have been sitting in my closet waiting for just such an occasion) and a crochety/funky black wrap that I’ve had for ages. Like jr pr0f’s suggestion of updo and may *attempt* to locate some bangles (probly from aforementioned wonderful neighbor, since I have exactly zero bangles in my own jewelry box)!
Thanks all :). I so appreciate the advice!
Eponine
I’m so jealous you get to meet Jimmy Buffett.
Chickie
Sounds like a good opportunity to wear some funky jewelry with that LBD!
Seich
I’m a second-year associate at a mid-size firm in Southern California. Any suggestions for appropriate “cocktail attire” for an event for attorneys only?
K
ARGH! Have to vent for a second: I have been trying to be financially responsible and save money for a new suit (because I really really need one), and finally hit a weekend where I have both savings and a coupon for Talbots — then got there and found out that apparently they are not lining the pants on their seasonless wool suits this season!!! What’s that about? They are the same price that they’ve been in years past, but suddenly completely lacking in lining. I tend to have a lot of brand loyalty, especially because I don’t have a lot of time to shop around, but no lining is definitely a dealbreaker for me.
Oh, well. I guess I can put the suit money into the saving-for-a-down-payment account, and wait until the next time I’m not working 70+ hours a week to trya and find a new brand I like…Sorry for the vent. I do feel better. :-)
Anonymous
Seasonless suits aren’t supposed to be lined, are they? Summerweight usually means no lining, and if they stuck lining on “seasonless” pants they wouldn’t really be seasonless. Then again the concept of seasonless doesn’t make much sense to me anyway, because I want to wear warmer fabrics in winter and cooler ones in the summer, doesn’t everyone?
K
No idea why they call them “seasonless” wool — it is lightweight, but in years past has always been lined. I also don’t tend to have different suits for summer and winter — wear the same ones year round. Now I’m in the south and it doesn’t matter, but in NYC I would just add silk long underwear as needed. Even with the long underwear, though, I always want the pants lined.
BigLaw Refugee
I don’t agree that summer suits shouldn’t be lined. The lining keeps the pants from clinging to all my little flaws, and it’s worth an extra (very thin) layer of fabric to achieve that. I hate unlined also, and appreciate the heads up – I was a loyal Talbots shopper but will not be this season.
Ann Taylor has some lined pants – practically the only ones I’ve seen this season. I actually read something about how their designer wanted to take out the linings and someone else associated with the brand put their foot down.
K
Agreed on the flaws! The saleswoman told me that her store is lobbying to change it this season — I’ll keep my fingers crossed. I’ve had problems with AT lining disintegrating on me in the past — I actually do agree with the point below about lining not equaling quality — but may try them again…
AEK
Lining does not necessarily equal quality. In many suits, the lining is made from a cheap, slippery, synthetic fabric so that a poorly sewn or low-quality fabric in the suit will lay nicer. Lightweight wool of good quality should not need a lining to lay nicely; it will breath much better also (unless you spring for silk-lined suits, in which case, lucky you). Of course allergies and sensitivities make it a must it for some people no matter what.
Linings may be a preference for some, but there are plenty of crummy suits that have them, and plenty of quality ones that don’t.
Eponine
This.
K
Agreed that it doesn’t necessarily equal quality, and I am a little particular about the fabrics (which is why I don’t have many suits — I’m building my collection slowly) — I just prefer it, and tend to think I look better in a lined suit. But I’ll shop around and see what I can find…
K
Also, complete side note and please excuse my ignorance: what does “This” mean? Lots of people use it, and I know it means “I agree,” but what does it actually stand for?
Thanks!
Chicago K
It sort of means – “This is what I think too, exactly what the person above said, I totally agree.”
Sort of like when you are shopping and you see a million sweaters and then finally see “the one.” You might point and say, “This! This is exactly what I’ve been looking for!”
LOL, that’s how I interpret it, others can feel free to correct me.
Eponine
What chicago K said. I just mean it to say I agree. Some people write “IAWTC” (i agree with this comment) and others write “+1” to express the same sentiment.
Amy H.
K, I empathize. I ordered a Talbots stretch wool suit last month b/c it was one of the few I’d seen this season with a three-button jacket, and because the trousers were unlined, I had to return it. SO FREAKING ITCHY! Though I recognize others’ comments that lining doesn’t necessarily equal quality, I would never be able to get a lick of work done wearing those pants because I’d just be sitting there itching.
mbs
Can anyone give me an idea of what to wear in San Diego in late November? I’m attending a conference that will require business casual dress, but I understand it can be kind of warm that time of year. Would lightweight wool be too hot? I have a couple of light merino wool boyfriend style sweaters, and a couple of worsted wool blazers. What is considered business casual in San Diego in the winter?
K
I’m a SoCal corporette, not exactly in San Diego, but close.
I think lightweight wool should be perfect for late November, honestly. We’ve had some bizarre weather recently (a very mild summer with an insane late Sept/early October heatwave), so who knows what late November could look like? Keep in mind that if you’re close to the water, it will generally be a few degrees cooler.
In the late fall/winter time of year, I tend to stick to belted boyfriend cardigans or blazers over a pair of lightweight wool trousers or a pencil skirt for my business casual office. Dresses with tights work too. It’s unlikely you’ll need anything heavier.
mbs
Great, thanks so much for your reply, that gives me a better idea of what to take, and what I need to pick up between now and then. I’ve been to LA in the spring, but never anywhere in SoCal in the fall/winter.
Decorating question
Would it be considered odd to bring two matching guest chairs from home to replace the mismatched gov’t-issued set I currently have in my office? The chairs I have in mind are mid-century chrome and upholstery (recently re-upholstered). They’re good-looking chairs… stylish, but nothing crazy or unprofessional. The other attorneys in my office have random guest chairs (some matched, some mismatched) which all seem to be the usual gov’t-issued variety from different eras.
J*lie
Hi Decorating—doing the same thing in my new, teeny gov’t office–looking to fix up the grey atmosphere! I totally get you on the mis-matched govt-issue, lol. I’d imagine bringing some stuff from home couldn’t hurt!
MelD
If everyone has mismatched chairs, I think it would be a bit much to bring in your own. Are there matches around the rest of the office? We just had a big matching session in my government office because someone decided it looked unprofessional for people to have mismatched sets. I think everyone came out with a match once everything was swapped out, but we’re in a pretty new building.
Chicago K
It should probably be OK, but beware of this – I worked in a cozy office with lots of antique furniture. One of the women brought in one of her old style couches to donate to the decor. Upper management was upset thinking she would want to be reimbursed for the donation or given a gift receipt for tax purposes, which they said they wouldn’t do.
Now, granted, this was working at a foundation, so perhaps they were a tad more aware of these stipulations. Just be clear you are not looking for some kind of tax break by bringing in these chairs and it should be OK.
Shayna
When women do this “nesting” thing in the office it comes across as though you’re trying to turn your office into your living room – not professional. And if everyone else has the same standard issue chairs, yours being different makes you stand out and not in a good way. If no one else has lousy furniture, put in a requisition to replace it.
Eponine
I can’t see why not. As a govvie myself, I suspect that’ll be far easier than trying to get your agency to replace them. Just make sure that there’s no agency policy against it, though.
I assume they look like standard office chairs and nothing overly decorative. As Shayna said, making your office too homey can work against you.
J*lie
Wow, that’s interesting! I just started work in a govt position and am wondering about how to decorate my sparely furnished cell. I work with a lot of non-lawyers, and I notice the women have totally ramped up the decorating in their spaces. I wasn’t going to bring in my framed degrees from my old office, years ago, but now am thinking ‘professional’ look (vs. all the homey touches) could be more important.
Good tips, here….
Anonymous
I have never heard anyone but Shayna express that decorating the office to be more homey is unprofessional.
Eponine
It’s discussed in Nice Girls Don’t Get the Corner Office, which many Corporettes consider to be the working woman’s bible. In my personal experience, it’s good advice.
MelD
From what I’ve seen this weekend with women saying they read NGDGTCO, I’m not that impressed with the results so far. People in my office (e.g. men and women) decorate their offices to make them more homey. It just seems like too many women who read the book are so quick to think something is sexism when it really isn’t.
Eponine
@MelD – in my experience, the women who decorate their offices and make them nice and cozy tend to have two problems that can harm them in the workplace. First, their offices tend to become the gathering place for chitchat and social visits, which generally makes them work less efficiently and also leads to them being perceived as not hard workers. Second, they tend to be the same women who bring in cookies, have overly girly office supplies, and talk a lot about their toddler’s potty training or the like. The cozy office plus those other personality traits tend to lead others to perceive them as not serious professionals.
Hope this explains things better.
Eponine
Also @MelD – I don’t mean women who decorate at all, but women who decorate in a cozy/homey style. I realized this wasn’t clear in my comment.
Pjbhawaii
I work in a government litigation office. Our most brilliant lawyer has furnished his office to look much like a den. He’s taken out the overhead too-bright bulbs, and brought in some desk lamps and standing lamps. He’s got some great paintings, an oriental carpet, and yes, matching client chairs.
I’ve done the same thing, only with much less talent. I do it because I’m in my office 9 -11 hours per day. It makes me happy and more productive, my clients like it, and its all +1 for me.
Most of us in our office bring in food — male and female. I think the influence of the NGDGTCO book is given way too much deference on the site. But, each to her own.
Decorating question
Thanks for the opinions. I don’t have any other homey touches in my office (especially compared to co-workers). Not even pictures… just diplomas and a plant. So I don’t really think the chairs would be too out of line. I’d just like to have something nice to look at! I’ll think about it for a while though. If anyone is curious, they are similar to these, but with new upholstery:
http://retro-modern-decor-store.com/MidCenturyModernPairChromeArmChairsEamesEra.html
Pjbhawaii
Very nice and appropriate imo.
v
I like those chairs. I have a hard time imagining them creating an overly-girly “living room” look in your office, or looking too opulent compared with everyone else’s office.
EC
I worked at a government job a while ago, and was surprised to walk past an open door one day and discover a room chock full of spare office chairs, paintings, faux plants, desks, foot rests, lamps, coat trees, etc. Only a few of the assistants were “in the know” (on a side note – it is very important to find these assistants and make friends with them, since they know how to get everything done in government). Our chambers went “shopping” right at work and ended up with comfortable chairs, wall art, and better lighting. You might see if your building has something similar.
skippy pea
Whine!
I have been so busy lately that I do not get time to log onto corporette. I miss being here everyday, especially the weekend threads.
Oh well. things open up in couple of weeks and I will be here!
Chicago K
Me too. I join into your whine!
UnSub
Can I have a glass of that whine too?