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Our daily workwear reports suggest one piece of work-appropriate attire in a range of prices.
I didn’t know I needed turquoise pants, but now I won’t rest until I own a pair. These “duck green” high-waisted, wide-leg trousers from Bottega Veneta are so chic, and a great way to incorporate a bright color that won’t ruffle too many feathers in a conservative office.
For a more traditional look, I would pair these with black pumps, a black turtleneck, and well-tailored black blazer. If you’re in a more casual place, I would do a cool sneaker and white short-sleeved sweater.
The pants are $1,050 at Nordstrom and come in sizes 0–10.
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Sales of note for 8.30.24
- Nordstrom – Summer Sale, save up to 60%
- Ann Taylor – 30% off full-price purchase; $99 jackets, dresses & shoes; extra 50% off sale
- Banana Republic Factory – 50-70% off everything + extra 20% off
- Bergdorf Goodman – Final Days Designer Sale, up to 75% off; extra 20% off sale
- Boden – 20% off
- Brooks Brothers – Extra 25% off clearance
- Eloquii – Up to 60% off everything; extra 60% off all sale
- J.Crew – 40% off sitewide; extra 60% off sale styles
- J.Crew Factory – Extra 20% off orders $125+; extra 60% off clearance; 60%-70% off 100s of styles
- Lo & Sons – Summer sale, up to 50% off (ends 9/2)
- Madewell – Extra 40% off sale; extra 50% off select denim; 25% off fall essentials
- M.M.LaFleur – Save 25% sitewide
- Rothy's – End of season sale, up to 50% off
- Spanx – Lots of workwear in the big sale, some up to 70% off
- Talbots – 25% off regular-price purchase; 70% off clearance
- White House Black Market – Up to 70% off sale
Sales of note for 8.30.24
- Nordstrom – Summer Sale, save up to 60%
- Ann Taylor – 30% off full-price purchase; $99 jackets, dresses & shoes; extra 50% off sale
- Banana Republic Factory – 50-70% off everything + extra 20% off
- Bergdorf Goodman – Final Days Designer Sale, up to 75% off; extra 20% off sale
- Boden – 20% off
- Brooks Brothers – Extra 25% off clearance
- Eloquii – Up to 60% off everything; extra 60% off all sale
- J.Crew – 40% off sitewide; extra 60% off sale styles
- J.Crew Factory – Extra 20% off orders $125+; extra 60% off clearance; 60%-70% off 100s of styles
- Lo & Sons – Summer sale, up to 50% off (ends 9/2)
- Madewell – Extra 40% off sale; extra 50% off select denim; 25% off fall essentials
- M.M.LaFleur – Save 25% sitewide
- Rothy's – End of season sale, up to 50% off
- Spanx – Lots of workwear in the big sale, some up to 70% off
- Talbots – 25% off regular-price purchase; 70% off clearance
- White House Black Market – Up to 70% off sale
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Maudie Atkinson
Drooling over here. I love these.
Sunshine
I’m 40 years old. I’m 100% sure my mom owned pants exactly like these when I was in high school. And now I’m the same age that she was then.
A + Fed
I’m pretty sure I had a pair when I first started working.
Anon
Same here. I’m also really not going back to “workwear” – still not back in the office, but my plan is more day to night, comfortable but cute enough to see friends for drinks after work. More denim and dresses, less like I’m heading to a conference room. We were casual casual before, but I’m ditching my b-player stuff in favor of things that make me think “I love this, I want to wear it all day.”
LaurenB
Had these kinds of pants as a twenty something in the mid to late 1980s. Not flattering unless you are indeed a slender twenty something. Hard pass. Give me non pleats thank you.
Anon
These scream “shuffleboard” to me. I have photos of my grandmother wearing very similar in the 60s.
anon
Saaaaaaame
Anonymous
I just . . . don’t. The rise is so high. The hem seems to be a tad short. I feel like if you are that wide, you have to be deliberately cropped (and NOT cuffed) or hemmed for heels (also not cuffed). I also am not a fan of the giant belt loops. I don’t think that a wide belt would be a good luck with these pants.
Rant aside, the color is lovely.
Anonymous
I love the color. But you know as soon as you sat down that little poof would puff out unattractively
Vitamin D
So Frumpy.
Grandma pants for summer picnic.
Ellen
The high waist is something that only someone with a flat tuchus can pull this off. Aside from the fact that my tuchus is not flat, I could not see paying over $1000 for a pair of these pants. I will wear more pants in the winter, but for now I am happy to be able to wear my party dresses to work.
Alex
I do too! They are beautiful.
Anon
For me, the issue is the fit, messy at the top of the thighs. Four figure pants should only be shown perfectly tailored, and these are not.
Anonymous
Yup.
Anonymous
Elizabeth Jennings on The Americans wore clothes of the high-waisted pants era. I don’t think she could have pulled these off. And that character was always mid-80s flawless.
Anonymous
Am starting a new role and was given a heads up about two of my employees: one is an older, experienced woman but junior to my role who is known to be a bully. She’s kept on because that’s how things go sometimes.The second is a man who wanted my position but failed to get it. Any suggestions in addition to don’t acknowledge that I know these things and “befriend” them, would be very useful!!
Anon
Honestly, keep your resume up to date and be ready to jump. This sounds like you’re being set up to fail.
Beware
Agree…why were you hired? To help management deal with these difficult personalities? Will management have your back?
ArenKay
Thirded.
Anon
Be patient and to the extent have very concrete expectations. Establish early that you’ll ask for something ‘by Friday COB’ or that you’re looking for something ‘within a couple hours’. One of the most common, annoying, and passive aggressive ways I’ve seen that staff undermines their bosses is by re-prioritizing and then claiming that ‘boss should have been clearer’.
The other thing that it sounds like you need are manuals and/or knowledge transfer docs. I think the best way to frame this is by smiling and asking for their procedures and when they (inevitably) tell you ‘oh, they don’t have one’. Then you talk for a moment about how it’s a real vulnerability because ‘what if you win the lotto and quit? What if you go on a trip around the world and are gone for two months? We don’t want it to all fall apart!’ (Note: I did all these things. I did all the right things. I got my staff to trust me. Doesn’t mean they’re happy in their positions or that I’m still not begging for that manual which at this point I’m writing or that my life still isn’t difficult because they’re difficult staffers period.)
Anon
I have a lot of thoughts about this:
1. Be careful of believing the words of other people. They often have their own agendas when they “confidentially” tell you “the truth” about someone else at the company.
2. That said – bullies have no place in a professional office. It’s your job to document the bullying, implement clear expectations, and, if she fails to adjust, terminate her.
3. Related to #2, it’s part of your job as a manager to implement clear expectations. If he is a mature individual who can handle not having gotten your job, you have no problems and it’s your job to not punish him for things he hasn’t done. If he can’t handle it, it’s your job to work with him on moving on to a different role.
anon
Strongly agree on point 1. As a manager, while it’s useful to hear this viewpoint on your new employees, you owe it to them to give them a fair opportunity to succeed. Which means taking this information on board but not going into your interaction with Employee 1, for example, assuming that she’s a bully and treating a forcefully expressed opinion as bullying. I have personally gotten this type of heads-up on someone before and found it to be really not true (an employee was described as unambitious and kind of a good ol’ boy; having worked with him for a year, I’m pretty sure that was 100% stereotyping due to his accent and age).
Elegant Giraffe
I realize you used quotations, but your goal is not to befriend. Your goal is to set clear expectations, hear them when they identify obstacles to meeting those expectations, and do what you can to mitigate those obstacles. As someone upthread said, you have the advantage of knowing now that you should set explicit timelines and due dates in writing for these folks. If you do it from day one, you’re not deliberately micromanaging anyone…instead, that’s just the way you behave as a manager. And, like others said, use this information as guidance but not gospel. In particular, the second individual may very well comport himself like a mature adult and has already moved past his rejection.
Seventh Sister
As someone who applied for a position and didn’t get it, I wasn’t out to “get” my new manager – I wanted to help them and do good work! Am I a perfect employee? No, probably not. But I genuinely didn’t/don’t try to undermine that person or need to be treated like a radioactive probationer.
YMMV, but sometimes women I’ve been told are “bullies” or “difficult” are just pretty self-assured and detail-focused.
Anon
I’m currently in this hell and my boss didn’t tell me until after I started and ignored them trying to take me down for 8 months. I was bullied and shut out while hearing i didn’t belong, i owned they hadnt been managed dor a few years and were ullues to others . While they moved on my boss still blames me. I’m looking for a different role.
anonchicago
I left my husband over the weekend and now am very conflicted about going back to him.
He’s great 90% of the time, very sweet and caring, but since we both started working from home in April 2020 there’s this anger inside of him that comes out after he’s had a few drinks. He’s gotten violent a few times and we’ve had lots of talks about changing, stopping drinking, and I left him around this time last year as well to stay with my mom for awhile.
I have issues too – I’m depressed, this year has been rough work wise, and I tend to start yelling or crying easily lately, and he says that triggers him.
There was an incident Friday night and I just decided, nope, can’t, and I packed whatever fit in my car and started driving because I needed to get away and have distance from him. Now, we’ve been texting daily and meanwhile I’m living out of hotels with no furniture, it’s hard to find an apartment and movers for where I want to live (NC), and I’m just so angry that I had to be the one to go. I miss the good times with him so much and I can’t decide if it’s time to leave him or start over?
Anonymous
I’ve been a DV prosecutor for 10+ years. DO NOT GO BACK. Once violence enters a relationship, it never leaves. Your best case scenario is that you’re always going to live in fear that something will go wrong and he will be violent again. Your worst case scenario is you end up seriously injured or dead. The good relationship you might have had in the past is gone. You will someday have another good relationship again — you just have to get her through this tough part. I’m divorced so I know that this isn’t easy — but a year from now your life will be a million times better if you don’t go back than it you do.
Read up on the cycle of violence, get in therapy, reach out to DV hotlines. Tell your friends what’s going on and let them help you. Leaving is the hardest part — and you did that already! — you got this.
Anonymous
This is excellent advice. I am a former DV prosecutor now judge and can attest it is all true. Please take this advice and the love and best wishes I know go with it. And also please know you are worth so, so much more than what your husband has conditioned you to expect. Please STOP texting with him and reach out to the world (any friends or family who might be available (no worries if not there are others who will be thrilled to help), DV hotline. We are cheering for your safety and happiness.
I know you will find these things on the other side of this situation.
Anon
I agree with stop texting. I had a therapist tell me (after the end of an abusive relationship) to agree not to contact him for two weeks. I followed the advice (despite lots of desperate “you’re ruining my life” texts from the guy). Setting a time limit helped me actually do it (and I never ended up talking to him again, but I would have never believed that at the start of the two weeks).
Anon
As someone who was a prosecutor and is now a judge, what advice do you have for someone who initiated separation then divorce due to domestic violence, and had 3 kids who are potentially going to start spending 50% of their time with their neglectful and abusive father? All the abuse happened behind closed doors, and the kids have been manipulated by ex, and are too young to know what’s going on. I’ve been to the local DV advocate, got an attorney etc. So far it’s “he said she said”.
Anon
Another prosecutor endorsing that this is truth.
Anon at 10:43
And I want to add: this is who he is. He’s not “a great guy unless he’s drinking.” I don’t know how many times I’ve heard that. I’ve heard it from a woman covered from head to toe in bruises. Alcohol relaxes inhibitions. I feel strongly that ones true self comes out when under the influence of alcohol. I’m basing this on both personal experience of friends and two decades of prosecuting. THIS IS WHO HE IS.
Anon
In my early 20s I was engaged to a man who was “a great guy when he wasn’t drinking.” One day I realized that the times he wasn’t drinking were becoming further and farther between, and it was getting harder and harder to stay in love with the person he was when he was drinking – that person was bitter, abusive, belittling and violent. It got to the point where I actually forgot who he was when he was sober, and one day (when he temporarily quit drinking after having his drivers’ license revoked) I was surprised and thrown off-balance when that person decided to show up. I didn’t remember the sober person because the drunk person had been so prevalent in my life for so long. That’s when I knew I had to leave. After I broke off the engagement we never spoke again. I found out on Facebook ten years ago that he drank himself to death; he was 41. By the time he died his life had been far off the rails for some time, because he never accepted he had a drinking problem and so never could accept help for it. I sometimes think about the road I didn’t travel and am profoundly grateful to my younger self, for getting out while I could.
OP, I understand the seduction of the “good times.” As you go forward, those will fade into very distant memories and all you’ll be left with is the ugly reality of who he is in the present moment. Most likely, his “present moment” self will continue to get more abusive and violent as time goes on. You deserve better than that. Get out now. Your older self, the person you will be 10, 20, 30 years from now, will thank you for it.
Anon
To OP,
Don’t read these responses from people in the trenches and think “ok but that’s not him.” It most definitely is him.
I divorced an angry man who was not physically abusive but I would say he was emotionally abusive. It was hard because he was a really nice guy except for when he wasn’t. But the truth is, the not-nice guy was who he really was, and everything else was a facade.
He hurt me physically once. It was an accident, or that’s what we both said at the time. Looking back on it, I don’t think it was.
You’ve done the hardest part. Stay strong. Stop texting. Move forward with your life. The life you thought you had with your husband is over.
From time to time those of us who are divorced pile on a thread and say how it was the best think we’ve ever done. You’re going to have a sucky 6 months to a year, then you will feel just like the rest of us. I promise.
No Face
I would stop texting him and instead look at resources about domestic abuse. Reach out to organizations about domestic abuse. You are displaying pretty classic, telltale patterns of thinking that result from being in an abusive relationship (e.g. talking about crying an “issue” after you discussed his violence, referencing your actions as being a “trigger” for him as if you are bringing this about). It will be hard work to recognize and change these patterns underlying your choices, and you cannot do that while talking to him. If you just left, he will probably act like an exceptional partner until you agree to come back. Don’t fall for it.
Absuers work pretty hard to isolate their targets. Do you still have any connections to family or friends? If you don’t, think of the warmest, most supportive person you had in your life before and reach out to them.
The good times are not worth these bad times. You can have the good times without those bad times, just never with him. Violence and angry drinking are not prices of admission.
Best wishes.
Anonymous
I don’t have any good answers but and sending you love.
You mentioned that he’s gotten violent and a particular incident Friday. Would you feel comfortable sharing what happened? Additionally, are there any kids in the picture?
Anonymous
You did the hardest part! You got out of a bad situation with a violent man. It is time to put yourself first and keep moving. Find a time he is gone, grab a friend and get your stuff. File for divorce, block his number, and let the lawyers take it from there. Do not slip backwards. Your life will only be better without him.
Anonymous
You did the right thing. You should be very proud of yourself, that took a lot of courage, and it was scary, and it was the very best thing you could do for your future. Get out now while you’re angry, that’s a great motivation. You have the right to be very, very angry.
Abusers choose to abuse, choose to be violent, and he has shown repeatedly that he is willing to choose abusive and violent actions toward you. He will not choose to “change”. They don’t.
Call a domestic abuse hotline. It’s a good idea no matter what else your circumstances. Just talking to somebody who really knows is a great relief, and you can get guidance on all the steps you should do to get away safely, including bank and money stuff, and physical safety. Statistic show that violent abusers are the most dangerous when you have just left.
Stay safe!
Monday
Yes, I am concerned that he may escalate now that you’ve left. Does he know where you are? If so, change locations and make sure he can’t track you by your phone. Make sure no mutual friends, family, or your employer, will disclose to him where you are.
Anonymous
I used to work on DV cases and it doesn’t get better. Rarely, rarely, I’ve seen guys get better with the next person, but it’s only because they had such a significant loss that they realized they had to change (like an alcoholic hitting rock bottom). But I’ve never seen it better with the same person, either at work or IRL.
Allie
I am so proud of you for leaving — it’s not easy. You’ve done the hard thing — keep going! But get help. Please call a DV hotline asap. Please lean on any part of your support system that you can trust not to tell you to go back to him. Please know that your life will get so much better as you heal from this. You can do this.
Anon
I wish you were my friend in real life so I could hug you and support you any way you need to get out and stay out. Abuse can be obvious (fists, bruises, hospital visits), subtle and many shades of grey in between. My mom stayed. She never should have. To this day, my dad says he wasn’t pinning her to the ground, he was giving her a bear hug because she was sad and while yes, he did punch holes in the wall, they were always perfectly repaired and painted over. My dad outgrew the violence because he got tired…and just shifted into manipulation, guilt trips, and emotional abuse. It doesn’t get better unless the person voluntarily gets help. It just gets worse or they get sneakier as they escalate. Get out get out get out.
Anon
Hi, I’m currently in the process of divorcing an emotionally (not physically) abusive alcoholic who is also sweet 90% of the time. He also thinks that I cause part of his depression because I don’t take criticsm well and can’t take no for an answer. Our texts tend to be very civil and friendly which smoothed things over after an incident, so I always found a way to justify his behavior and our marriage. It took me 6 years to finally understand the situation. I still have to look back at emails from 2015 – present to remind myself that things were bad for a long time, because it is easy to forget. When you are in it, you really don’t have a good perspective of how bad it is and how long/frequently it is occurring.
Anon
…All this to say – don’t go back. It doesn’t get better. It gets worse. Leaving was the hardest part – stay gone. Divorce him and live a happy life. I wish you the best.
Emma
I left a marriage with someone who had substance abuse issues and mental health issues. He could be the sweetest guy in the world and I gave him a lot of grace for his issues. But one day it was one too many and I was done. It was hard, but two years out I am still amazed that I can breathe a lot better when I’m not waiting for him to explode, and I wouldn’t go back for a million bucks. Sending you strength.
Anon
Would you eat food if it was guaranteed free from poison 90% of the time?
This isn’t a school exam, where 10% wrong is okay.
Anonymous
I like this analogy. Another one (stolen from Reddit) is the sh!t sandwich. Even if only 10% of your sandwich is feces, the whole sandwich is still a sh!t sandwich. Some things are so bad that you can’t just nibble around it.
No Face
This is a good one.
anon
You did the hard part and there are a ton of internet stranger (whether they reply to your post or not) rooting for you. Reach out to your family, a therapist, and local DV resources. It may seem overwhelming right now, but remember, violence is never ok.
Anonymous
One thing that helped me to leave was recognizing (1) that the violence was escalating and (2) he didn’t see or accept the problem. Before he became violent, he would get drunk and scream and call me names. The first time he got violent, he punched a door and ripped a (not in use) security panel off the wall. He was great for like 3 months, then he started becoming stubborn about stupid stuff he knew would start a fight – like setting up a woodworking table in my spot in the garage during a snowstorm. It took another few months for him to get violent again. It was like he was creating a narrative about how unfair I was so he could justify his violent outbursts (ie she won’t let me have a woodworking shop she sucks!). The second time he got violent, he threw lit candles at me in front of my friend. I left him. At the time, I was willing to go back to him if he showed me he took it seriously – I demanded he check himself into an in patient rehab for his drinking. Instead, he called his doctor and set up a physical for 6 months from then. It showed me that he didn’t take the situation seriously at all. So I left for good.
People who like him will make you feel as if it’s not that bad, it’s not like he hit you. It’s only a matter of time. He has already shown you that he wants to blame you for triggering him. You’re the bad guy, he’s just trying to do his best. He’s pushing your boundaries a little farther each time. She put up with X that means I don’t have to check myself when I want to do Y! The truth is it’s not going to stop because he doesn’t want it to stop. He likes not having to hold back.
anonchicago
Omg, the pattern is so similar here.
First time a year ago, he broke down our bedroom door when I locked it to get away from him during an argument. He then held me down on the bed to yell at me.
Fast forward and a few other incidents, the one this weekend was him yelling and hitting then grabbing me on the street. Several people saw and came up to me afterwards asking if I was okay and safe. Even though he had been worse in the past, the fact that he was willing to lose it and hit me in public (on a Chicago street in front of restaurants on Friday night!) told me that he sees his behavior as acceptable.
Anonymous
Yes this is correct. He is escalating and getting more dangerous. A domestic violence agency can help you sever this relationship safely.
Anon
Girl, this is not ok. There are men out there who respect a shut door, let alone a locked door. And who respect an “I don’t want to be hugged right now because I feel claustrophobic.”
Anonymous
I’m so sorry that happened to you. You reminded me that my ex did the bedroom door thing too – he didn’t really “break down” the door, it’s a flimsy privacy lock and he twisted the handle hard enough to disengage the lock and open the door – and I didn’t recognize it for how bad it was. The next day, he was sooooo upset that I locked him out of our bedroom. Even though I was so scared I retreated behind a locked door, he was the aggrieved party because that’s his room too and I had no right to keep him out. It should’ve told me then that he thinks he’s entitled to throw a temper tantrum and I’m supposed to just deal with it calmly no matter how bad it gets. I sometimes think it’s some kind of weird regression. They want you to be mom while they act like a toddler, anything you do other than cooing to them is wrong. Never mind that when a grown man hits and kicks and throws things, it’s completely terrifying to be on the receiving end of it.
Anon
Classic story about now it’s all your fault for locking him out. Manipulation is always part of the game, isn’t it? The physical violence may be occasional but the mind games are daily.
Sarabeth
Yeah, do NOT go back to this dude. Even the first incident you describe would be enough to make me say that.
He’s probably not going to change; and he’s definitely not going to change if you stay with him. Why would he need to?
pugsnbourbon
What happened this weekend shows that he is completely out of control and dangerous.
Here are two orgs in NC that may have resources that can help:
https://interactofwake.org/ and https://nccadv.org/
Stop texting him, turn off any location tracking you have on your phone, change your passwords, etc. Temporarily disable social media. Not sure how you handle finances try to get a credit card in your name only (I think Old Navy/Gap will give anyone a Visa).
Marie
So far, I haven’t commented because everyone else is spot-on in their responses, but I have to say that if he was willing to put hands on you in public such that strangers were checking in on you, that should make you so afraid to be anywhere near him behind closed doors because I do not want to even imagine what he would think was acceptable behavior. You left, which was the absolute right thing to do, and now you need to stay gone for your own safety. Cut off contact with him and start making a plan to permanently cut all ties.
Explorette
First, hugs to you. Violence is a no-go in a healthy relationship. Him blaming his violence on you for “triggering” it is a no-go. Yes, you will mourn over the loss of your relationship. The reason you are with him is because you had good times. It’s sad to let that go. Yes, it will be hard work to rebuild your life. You will get through this. You will be stronger for doing it. The easy thing to do now is go back to what is comfortable and give him, yet another, chance. It won’t work. You will only drag out your own pain by going through this all over again. Talk to a divorce lawyer and talk to your counsellor.
Anonanonanon
You’ve already got tons of good advice. I just want to chime in that I’m so proud of you for leaving. You deserve to be safe and loved. I’ll be thinking of you and wish we could help you navigate this in real life.
Cornellian
+1. And also to all the other posters on the thread!
Anon for this
Even if it does get better, IT WILL NEVER BE GOOD ENOUGH.
I spent 20 years in an emotionally abusive marriage that was physically abusive early in the marriage. Every time I set a firm boundary (by leaving, because he wouldn’t listen to anything less serious) the particular bad behavior would stop – only to be replaced by a different bad behavior (e.g., he didn’t “push” me in the face, he shoved me, then he didn’t shove me, he grabbed my neck, then he didn’t grad my neck he yelled and screamed obscenities, etc). Each time he “fixed” a bad behavior I gave him points for the “fix” and kept trying.
I woke up one day and realized I’d trained him out of emotional and physical violence but he is not loving and supportive. And, most importantly, I just don’t like him. I left and it has been the absolute best thing ever. Everyone remarks on how happy I seem (like my hair stylist, who didn’t even know what happened but had known for years and commented on how happy and “light” I seemed just after I left).
The other thing to understand is that leaving happens on your own time. It’s hard. You might think you are ready when you aren’t. There may be stops and starts. I’d love for you to leave now and be gone. But if that doesn’t happen for you, please understand it is never too late (unless he kills you or a loved one. Sorry, but that part must be said). I should have left sooner. All my friends thought I was nuts for staying. But I did get there and it’s seriously the best. You’ll get there too because this is not the life for you.
Senior Attorney
I agree with all the great advice on this thread. Please don’t go back. It took me three tries before I was able to leave for good and after the two times I went back, it would be a year later and I’d still be miserably unhappy abd I’d think “if I’d stuck to my guns last year I’d be in my new life now!” And now it’s 8 years since I left for good and my new life is great beyond my wildest dreams.
You are in the hardest part now, but the only way out is through. Much love to you!
Anonymous
I’m proud of you for leaving! Six years ago, I divorced a similar man who was amazing 90% of the time but scary 10%-either lazy, mean, or avoidant while drinking. He never got physical putting his hands on me, but he broke things in front of me to frighten me. He broke a door lock once when I had to get away from him during a scary fight. We had tried couples counseling, where he blamed every problem in his life and our marriage on me. It was so hard to go through, but I am proud of myself for demanding better, and so should you. Thinking of you!
Daffodil
You’ve gotten really great advice already; I completely agree you need to leave him for good.
I’ll just chime in to say that the divorce process is tough, it takes a lot of time and effort to separate yourself mentally from him and the good times you used to have. That said, it is completely worth it (and sounds like especially so in your situation), and you will be so much better off without him in the long run. Lean hard on your friends, family, and any DV organizations right now, and take care of yourself. Also get a lawyer ASAP.
My heart breaks for you. Sending you hugs.
Anon
Your best days are ahead of you. You have done an amazing thing by listening to your instincts. He is not able to change, at least not now, so your job is to protect yourself. Reach out to a DV hotline and anyone in your life who is a reliable and kind soul and they will help you. We’re all cheering for you.
KP
Get to an Alanon meeting asap.
Anonymous
I feel like there are a million puberty books and pregnancy books and there is a ton of people who have experienced both conditions to ask for annecdata and advice. I used to have an OB who was a mom and older than me, so a wealth of medical practice experience, book learning, and lived experience. Then she moved. Every other OB in the practice is younger or a guy. I am in the throes of perimenopause and want, if not a good older-than-me OB (or now, just a GYN), a decent book (why is my shape completely shifted even though I am maybe within 10 pounds of my high school weight? why do I bloat if I even look at a high-salt delicious restaurant meal? what is happening to me!? I don’t have hot sweats, but all of these other random things). I get that doctors are smart, but I value people further down the road (the one NP who was older just retired). I can’t get a break on the people front. Is there a good book or two I could read in the meantime?
Anonymous
The Menopause Manifesto
Anonymous
Dr. Jen Gunter is a straight up hero. Please read this.
NYNY
Cosign, this book is amazing! Jen Gunter also has a podcast if that’s how you roll.
Anon in LA Area
The book is amazing! Yes! This.
SF chic
I hear you sister. Also in the throes of perimenopause and for the first time in my life am also having crazy mood swings with my crazy avalanches of periods. Similar to you, I always want women doctors older than me, but the downside is that they all retired/left during the past year. The menopause manifesto author was on every NPR talk/interview show last month and I got a little sick of her, but I think I will also be buying her book.
There are GYN women docs who specialize in menopause and that is who I will see next. Got a rec from a friend.
My Mom died young, and it’s times like this where I wish I had a close female family member to talk to.
Ss
Are you in the dc area? I met with her virtually for an initial evaluation (but I did go in for one session and an exam). I would recommend Dr. Melinda Hall at the menopause center in Virginia. Lifechanging…I was having a difficult perimenopause and when I stopped sleeping regularly that’s when I sought help. Progesterobe (bioidentical) and thyroid meds have helped immensely. She is expensive upfront, she uses the Dutch test, but you can submit as an out of network provider. Good luck.
PolyD
I am totally going to check out Jen Gunter and the Manifesto.
The other thing that needs to happen is normalizing conversations about menopause. I don’t know, maybe prior generations did this. I’m in a book club and we’re all in our 40s and early 50s, several of us have begun to cross the rubicon. I really appreciate that a couple of members have been very open and honest about the changes that happen as you enter menopause. It helps to know what is “normal,” what to expect, what you can do to help with symptoms. And it helps to be able to discuss these things in a straightforward, unembarrassed way.
And all of use are like, Why did no one tell us about this?? So I don’t know if past generations didn’t talk amongst themselves, or just didn’t talk to younger women much about menopause.
Anonymous
In my family, no one went through menopause, except abruptly surgically when their fibroids (after several years of basically bleeding perpetually and not dying and being anemic and having no energy) led to hysterectomies. So no one knows.
Anon
I am so glad to hear someone else say this, because this is where my mid-40s friends and I are at too. Was it easier for our moms/grandmas/aunts or did they just not talk about it? Because this is not fun. Talking with my similar-age friends is somewhat helpful but I feel like I’m lacking real-world, real-life survival strategies from women who have been there. I think it’s also a problem that it seems like some women have a really easy time (a coworker of mine said she didn’t realize she’d gone through menopause until her doctor ran tests and confirmed it for her) and some have a really tough time (and I think I’m in the latter camp, as I am only 44 and sometimes I feel like I’m already losing my mind). I am reading the Menopause Manifesto and finding it helpful but feel like I need a “menopause mentor” to help get me through this.
Anon
I honestly think it was easier. When I was diagnosed with PCOS in the early 90s, it was a rare condition. Now it’s common. I assume other reproductive/endocrine issues in women’s health are also more common than they used to be.
Ss
I agree with you, talking about it is valuable and necessary. Some women will have a smooth transition, but I have had a difficult few years in peri (I had intense pms for decades so I am not surprised). Therapy helped me because honestly, it was very hard emotionally and the ups and downs of everything, my mood, energy levels and weight felt crazy making. My best suggestion is what prior poster said, to seek out help from a competent specialist. No one should suffer for years alone. It can be a very, very difficult time (or it might not be) but we know it often overlaps with peak professional and family demands obviously. That is part of what makes it so hard. Controversial i know, but when the rubber met the road, the gamechanger for me that helped me and still does, was bioidentical progesterone. There are many options though. But I do feel a desire to spread the word on hormone replacement as a valuable option to discuss with your doctor.
Anon
My friends and I basically never shut up about it. I guess we’re modeling healthy behavior.
I had to explain hot flashes to men at times because I was having one in a meeting or something so I would just say “I create my own weather.” The vast majority of the men are my age or older, have been through it with a wife or member of their family, and totally get it.
Anon
Look for a doctor who is a member of the North American Menopause Society (if you are in the US), there is a search function for members on their site. If you are in the Boston area try Dr Heather Hirsch at Brigham and Women’s. She has a podcast and more information at heatherhirschmd dot com.She was my doctor before she went to Harvard and B&W and I’m seriously considering flying out to Cambridge every time I need an appt because my GP who was also a member of NAMS just retired. Dr Hirsch is phenomenal.
I swear when I retire I’m going to become an activist for better menopause research and treatment because the current state of indifference to what half the planet goes through is ridiculous.
Anon
No advice but commiseration. These symptoms and changes are so major, I can’t believe no one ever talked about it or warned me. My friends all say the same. I really appreciate one friend who was about five years older and was open about saying “I’m having a hot flash!” And shared her experience on hormone replacement which was a game changer for her. Doctor recommendations in SF or the Bay Area would be welcome.
Anonymous
Does anyone have/wear the JCrew Juliette sweater-blazer? I have some giant sweater-coats, that are too much sweater (and yet: not enough coat), so they sit in the closet except for a month of fall and month of spring where they make sense (also, one doesn’t cover my front, just sides/back, so isn’t very warm; cute, but design flaws). I fear that the Juliette is too long to work with dresses, but I feel that shorter cardis aren’t a current look and maybe I will not be terribly excited about these but actually wear them all the time (sort of how the Athleta pranayama makes leggings work as an outfit back in the WFH depths of the pandemic and now on cooler weekends).
Cat
My mom wears the Juliette a lot in winter, with a thin turtleneck or silky blouse underneath. The proportions only work with skinnies. It’s definitely not meant to be an Outdoor Coat type of garment.
Anonymous
The current cardigan look appears to be a short boxy cardigan in a chunky knit with gigantic buttons, worn over a floral dress or with baggy pants. It’s a very casual look that I would not wear to the office.
Pre-pandemic I really tried to like the sweater blazers. They really only work with skinny pants on someone who is not so small that they are swallowed up by the stiff fabric and shapeless cut. I think of them as a very pre-pandemic look for 30-something and 40-something professional women, worn with skinny black ankle pants, Rothys point flats, and a Lo & Sons OG bag. I definitely would not wear one now.
Anon
Lol, I tried to like them too and just don’t. Agree 100 I wouldn’t wear one now.
Anonymous
OMG it is like you are looking through my monitor and seeing me. I am straight-up basic worker bee b*tch. My N.b., my Rothys are round-toe.
Anon
I have a drawer full of swackets and will absolutely wear them in fall and winter when I go back to the office. They really work with my preppy aesthetic with a gingham button-up blouse untucked, ankle pants, and pearls. I’m 39. Call me basic if you like, but I feel put together.
Hard no for me on Rothy’s and L&S OG.
PolyD
Oh, I hope the sweater jackets don’t go away! They are so comfortable and I like how they look. I optimistically bought one in my favorite olive color last fall, when I thought I might be back in the office in early 2021, but alas, it sits unused.
Then again, my office is very not-fashionable, so I don’t think anyone would scoff at my pre-pandemic look.
Anonanonanon
I have it. I like it but it’s definitely too long for most dresses and the sleeves feel gigantic. I am going to try to get them taken in and up.
RR
Yes. I wear it with slim trousers in place of a blazer. and I sized down because my size was comically oversized. I love it.
Anonymous
Thoughts on law school debt . . . How are people still prosecutors, public defenders, legal aid lawyers, judges, etc.? I feel like law school debt is too high for these jobs to be sustainable. And yet these are vital jobs.
As I get older, I feel like I want to fund either loan forgiveness efforts (maybe at my law school?) or work in a meaningful way to help ease the loan burden of people not in BigLaw (where I feel that the debt is not fun, but mathematically manageable).
IDK if there is a national charity that works on these issues? I went to law school far from where I live now, so even in my MCOL city, people are priced out of these important jobs. Also, with loan forgiveness, I feel like that is unreliable and the income hit is bad, so I’d want to focus on something charitable to help pay off loans (as a gift to the recipient, not that creates taxable income to them) while people are currently working vs making their balance balloon and waiting 10 years.
Anonymous
Idk why charity would do this when public service loan forgiveness exists but if you want to start one have fun
Anonymous
Are people really getting public service loan forgiveness? I kind of thought that that was theoretical, full of red tape, and subject to legislative change or limits. I don’t know of a person who has actually received it (vs medical people who seem to get different sorts of public interest breaks all the time with all going as planned).
IBR seems to really be kicking the can forward and hoping for the best.
Anonymous
PSLF is a fraud.
Anon
+1, literally 1% of applicants get it. Biden needs to expand the parameters for eligibility.
Anonymous
It’s not the parameters for eligibility that are the problem, it’s administrative issues around regular certification of the job.
anon
I agree with anonymous at 10:51. It’s the administration of the program that’s the issue, not the program itself. I’ve worked in a government job since graduating from law school 11 years ago. I sent in my form for loan forgiveness a few months ago, and they totally screwed up when counting my number of qualifying payments. I refinanced my loans about 6 months after graduating, not knowing that doing so restarted the clock on the 120 payments. (So don’t do that!) But now my loans are divided into 3 groups, and they counted the number of payments I made differently for each group, said some payments were late (they weren’t), and said I didn’t have a payment due for some months (I did and made it on time). I sent in documentation to have it all corrected, but it’s taking a long time for them to review it.
Anon
IBR + PSLF
Anonymous
IBR + PSLF
HFB
+ 1
anon
My law school had an excellent public service loan forgiveness program, basically.
Anonymous
Prosecutor in a VHCOL city. Went to a mid-tier law school (ranked 40-60, depending on the year) on a full scholarship, was married at the time so spouse paid living expenses (I had supported him through a masters just before starting — so one or both of us was in school for most of our 20s aka we still lived like students). Most of my colleagues are either relying on PILF or had parents who paid for school. A few have spouses with very high paying jobs. A lot of people leave after 3-6 years as they start to have kids because it’s harder when you have childcare bills and are working crazy hours, unless you have family nearby to help. I’ve cobbled it together because I’m naturally frugal and didn’t have loans and am very good at setting boundaries and also love the work.
AnonNoVa
I worked at a firm for about 6 years (late 90s/early 2000s, so salaries weren’t as high as they are now), and paid down my loans. Then got married a few months before I left the firm and kept paying them down while working in federal government on a GS-14/GS-15 schedule (having my husband’s government salary put me in a similar financial position to when I was single at the firm). Then qualified for a partial loan repayment bonus through the federal government, and used that to accelerate paying them down. I think it took me about 15 years total to pay them off. Only downside was that I did not have money for a Down payment on a house before the real estate market took off; had i bought 2 years earlier than I did I’d have at least 300k more in equity than I do now. Most people that I know who are prosecutors, judges, etc. spent at least some time in private practice, and I know some who spent years as public defenders then switched to firms (white collar work) when they had kids because they were tired of struggling financially in our HCOL market. There are more public interest loan forgiveness options now than when I was in school, so that helps too.
Anon
I was a fed prosecutor for many years and ultimately left in part because of this issue. I stupidly didn’t look into PSLF until too late and then realized I wouldn’t qualify because I wasn’t on an IBR plan. I now make double in private practice, with increases likely in coming years, and in just one year, I’ve paid off almost $20k of debt (should be fully paid off by the end of this year). I loved being in public service, but unfortunately, at some point, it wasn’t worth the financial sacrifices anymore (and plus I wasn’t seeing career advancement but that’s another story). JMO.
Anon
Also, just FYI, in my state and city, state court judges make upwards of 250k plus a full pension. So I don’t think they really need loan forgiveness.
Anonymous
Wow — that is a lot for judges (I’m sure it’s deserved, but more than what I am used to seeing). Where I have been, they made less than a first year biglaw associate, and paying for college for their kids was what pushed them into private practice.
I don’t think you should have to be on IBR to get PSLF. That seems to really mess you up financially if say you get laid off or need to change jobs or move in year 6 or 8 or whatever — the balance will balloon.
Anon
(1) They went to public schools that had (at the time) lower tuition. I went to a public law school in California in the 90s before the tuition skyrocketed and graduated with less than $50K in debt. My classmates are just getting to the “judge” stage of their careers. Or they received scholarships. The full ride does still exist!
(2) Their parents paid their tuition. My daughter will be in her final year of college this coming academic year and was just saying this weekend how fortunate she is that I paid for her college because it leaves her a lot more career options. That is $200K of debt she is not facing. And if she decides to go to graduate school, my parents have already said they would pay for it since they recently received an inheritance from one of their parents that they do not need but would pay for grad school.
(3) Don’t underestimate how much public employees make, particularly when you take benefits into account. $100K goes a lot farther when you do not need to contribute toward benefits and are promised a good pension.
busybee
In no state are line prosecutors making 100k! I’m making 60k with 7 years of experience in a large NE city. We contribute to our pension and health insurance. I afford it by having gone to a T25 law school with a large scholarship. Most of my colleagues leave around year 5-7 to make more money elsewhere.
Anon
This isn’t true. Line state prosecutors in my city (LA) max out at upwards of 200k. Granted, it takes a while to get there, but even most junior prosecutors are making low six figures after some years of experience.
Anon
^^ but also the pension is not so great, and who knows if it will be around in 20-30 years.
busybee
Cool, guess I should move to LA!
Anon
Pensions don’t generally just go away. An organization can stop payments on a going forward basis (indeed, I’ve worked for two companies that did that) but they can’t take away pension benefits you’ve already earned.
In the case of bankruptcy, you may lose some of your vested pension, but that’s unlikely for a city or county.
anon
Texas is similar – I’ve been making over 100K since about 5-6 years in. Pension is good, benefits are good. I think there’s a lot of misunderstanding about what certain jobs make. In my city, the public defenders office actually pays better than the prosecutor’s office. It’s certainly enough to afford to pay off loans and buy a house, provided you manage your finances well and don’t have any other outstanding financial commitments.
Anon
I am not sure what you mean by “in line prosecutors” but assuming you mean people actually prosecuting cases (as opposed to being administrators) that is just not true, at least in Southern California.
This is a matter of public record. DA III and above all earn more than $100K not including benefits. Check out TransparentCalifornia.com or the San Diego District Attorney’s website.
anon
I’m the Anon at 11:35 who posted above. A line prosecutor just means a non-supervisory attorney, typically. And yes, it’s true in LA (my city) as well as cities across Southern California. That said, DDA III is a more experienced level – not likely to get there until a number of years of practice.
Seventh Sister
I’m a govt. attorney who isn’t eligible for PSLF because of the type of loans I have, which is frustrating since I took out the loans long before PSLF was in existence. The amount I have left isn’t overwhelming or frustrating, but if I didn’t have to pay these loans, I’d be doing things like renovating my house (which would be positive for the local economy). Instead, the money is going to gild the private jet of the loan servicers (I assume).
Anonymous
Ohhh such exciting gymnastics! The men’s team final is worth watching on replay tonight. Annoyed NBC didn’t even manage to show all of the US ladies’ qualifying routines. And def setting an alarm to watch team finals at 6:30 tmrw.
Anonymous
I am lukewarm this year, but decided to tune in a bit yesterday. However, NBC was running ads literally every 2.5 minutes (clocked it). Not going to happen. It’s already confusing even figuring out where to watch anything. Any tips?
Anonymous
I record the big block of main events each night. Then I start the recording an hour or more after the actual start time and can just fast forward through all the commercials.
Same
Agreed! I was disappointed that they didn’t show all of the USA women’s routines.
MechanicalKeyboard
Low stakes questions:
What washable bathmats do y’all use? Do you just use a towel instead?
We have a couple of cheap Target bath rugs in our bathroom. My husband likes to throw a towel over the bath rug near the tub before he showers because he believes its more sanitary. He says they absorb most of the water and can be washed more frequently. This means that we usually have a couple of mismatched towels on the bathroom floor and I hate how this looks. He won’t go the towel only route because they don’t have the anti-slip properties of a bathmat. Is there a truly washable bath rug option? Are there any non-slip towels?
anon
I have never had a not washable bath mat. Aren’t they all washable? I am so confused by this question!
I couldn’t care less about the type of bath mat I use so I won’t be any help there (I get cheap white ones at Target or TJMaxx).
Anon
Bath mats are washable…aren’t you washing it?
MechanicalKeyboard
To clarify, I was looking for something than can be washed pretty much after every use but helps with slipping. The weekly washing of the bathmat isn’t enough for him and I don’t want to have to wash and dry a ton of rubber backed mats every week.
Anonymous
Weekly washing is plenty. He’s weird and he can wash it daily if he’s this much of a princess. So wasteful.
AIMS
The answer is not rubber backed bathmats! I have never had a problem with slipping. I have 3-4 that i use in rotation. You could easily wash them daily (I don’t but you could!).
BB
Frontgate resort bath mat. It came out top on Wirecutter. It’s basically a very thick towel.
Anon
Ok, so I kinda get this question. Our word “bathmat” covers two kinds: the kind with the rubber backing and the denser woven cotton kind. If you wash the rubber backing one all the time, the backing comes off, and since it’s more “rug-like,” people often don’t wash them weekly. I, too, would feel icky about standing on a rubber-backed one if it weren’t washed weekly. I use the thick cotton kind and wash it weekly with the towels and hang it up between showers. I use the rubber-backed one in front of the vanity and stand on it with slippers and wash it every 2-3 weeks.
anon
Huh. I have multiple “mats” in my house with rubber backs (inside door mat, kitchen, etc.) and wash them all the time without this issue! And I definitely am buying cheapos.
Is the solution as simple as a drawer / shelf sticky material thing (no idea what it’s called obviously) under a regular washable mat?
No Face
I wash my rubber-backed mats weekly and the backing has never come off. I believe they are all from Bed Bath and Beyond.
MechanicalKeyboard
Yup, this is it. He likes rubber backed ones, and we wash them weekly, but he places the towel over it because it gets washed after every use. So, even washing weekly isn’t his preference. I just don’t want to wash 7 of those huge mats per week!
Anonymous
Why u his maid? He weird diva he do washing
Anon
+1
This is such a weird issue. Let him deal with his weird hygiene anxiety.
AnonMPH
Wait, he wants to wash a towel that sits on top of the bathmat/rug and that he drips CLEAN water on for 5 minutes after a shower EVERY DAY??? This sounds insane to me. Is this normal to other people on this board? Genuinely curious.
We have a bath mat/rug that sits outside the shower, and we put a towel-type bathmat on top of it before we shower. It absorbs most of the water and helps the heavier bathmat/rug not get soggy. After we dry off, we pick it up and hang it up to dry out. The towel-type bathmat gets washed once a week, with the towels. This is how I was raised, maybe I’m the weirdo?
Anon
You’re not a weirdo, OP’s husband is!
Anon
You are not the weirdo here.
pugsnbourbon
I wash my bathmat … when I remember I haven’t washed it in a while, so maybe I’m disgusting?
But yeah sounds like your husband needs to do the laundry, problem solved.
Anon
This is how I get reminded that I grew up in the desert. The water waste from washing towels after each use is so wantonly profligate that it never would have been acceptable. We grew up taking 10-minute showers (timed) and brushing teeth, scrubbing dishes, etc. with the faucet off. We washed towels and bathmats once a week and never got any kind of weird infections that I can recall.
Anonymous
Does he wash his bath towel after every use too? That seems a bit obsessive.
Anonymous
Wait, what? Does he also mop all the floors in the entire house daily? Or does he never go barefoot in the house except immediately after stepping out of the shower?
Anon
I don’t mean to pile on but it’s super-weird, to me, to wash a towel after using it once. Is he not using soap in the shower? He should be clean when he’s getting out of the shower; what germs does he imagine are getting on the towel that will get so out-of-control before his next shower that they would pose a health hazard?
Anonymous
It’s not that weird, if he is prone to folliculitis. The easiest way to not get angry, inflamed skin if that’s a problem, is to always use clean body towels.
Humidity can also be a factor making towels gross after one use. Towels getting mildew in humid conditions are not nice towels to use.
anonshmanon
Alstern mat from IKEA is nice to stand on. Society 6 has fun designs with a bit of antiskid backing. I feel in general I don’t need the thicker rubber backing that my parents’ bath mats had. Not sure why that is. They all just go in the washing machine.
London (formerly NY) CPA
I really like the washable memory foam bath mats they sell now. I think I got mine at TJMaxx, but they sell on @mazon for sure. It lasted 3 years before I got rid of it due to moving, but it pretty much looked as good as new. Easy to throw in the washer/dryer. Very absorbant. Has non-slip backing and stays flat (which is what I hate about the towel kind of bath mats).
Anon
Yes they are washable. We love the washable memory foam ones from Kohl’s.
Cat
I personally hate rubber-backed bathmats / bath rugs because they get soggy and don’t dry quickly thanks to one side being plastic!
We just use cotton bathmats with no non-slip coating (many towel sets offer a corresponding thicker bathmat) and have never once slipped on it. We do hang it up in between showers (over the rod) so it’s not in the way on the floor; I would be more concerned about slipping on it if I stepped on it “in stride” rather than just the one slow step out of the shower.
Marie
I love this bath mat. I have no idea how it does not get soggy, but it can go through 4 people showering back to back and not be drenched and somehow self-dries. Also has sticky backing so is non-slip, and is machine washable. I wash and dry on gentle settings and have replaced every 2-3 years or so when the back starts to wear from use and from laundering. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B074V9V91R/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_image?ie=UTF8&psc=1
HW
I have a couple of cotton bath mats from Target that are reversible (ie don’t have the rubber backing). I hate how rubber backing can peel off, and these don’t slip. I wash them frequently and also bought multiple at once so I can toss one in the wash and put out a clean one right away.
AnonTowelGate
Follow up question – it sounds like your husband wants that towel to get washed after every use. Is everyone washing their towels after every use? This just sounds like an enormous amount of effort! We’re 1 x week over here. Should I be ashamed?
SF chic
Absolutely not. Using a towel once and washing it is wasteful. I’m not Oprah.
HW
Ha I was wondering that too! Who is washing towels after every use?
Cat
that is bananacrackers to me, we wash all towels and bathmats weekly. Washcloths are the only “single use before washing” element in our bathrooms…
Anon
I grew up washing towels after every use – it I should say my mom washed them. Our practice was to throw a towel into the washing machine after we used it.
So I showed up to college with 7 towels, yes I did, thinking I’d do laundry weekly. My roommates were like WTF.
Now I use my towel 3 ish times before I wash it. My hand towel lasts a week. My face towel gets changed every two washes.
Anonymous
Of course. I use one set of towels each day, and actually use the hand towel from the previous day on top of the bathmat. I wash one load of towels every week. Reusing a bath towel is very gross.
Anon
No, washing a bath towel after a single use is extremely wasteful. What are you doing in the shower if you’re not clean when you get out, to the point that you think a towel used once is too dirty to use again? I don’t get it.
Anon
I’ll add that switching to Turkish towels also helps with the washing and drying energy and they don’t get musty!
MechanicalKeyboard
Yeah, I didn’t write this out very well. lol. I’m looking for non-slip bathmat solutions that will look nice and can be washed after every use.
SF chic
So at the end of every week you are going to do an extra load of laundry of 7 bathmats? I hope it is your husband doing this one. You step on a bathmat after washing your feet, so they should be quite clean after use.
Anon
Hmm, I get small area rugs and replace them every so often.
Bonnie Kate
+1. This is similar to ur set up – we don’t even have a real bathmat for outside the shower – we have a runner rug that spans the entire sink area with the shower on one side and the tub on the other. I only have a small bathmat that I use for getting out of the tub, and after I’m done using it I hang it on the side of the tub to dry. It gets cleaned when it’s dirty? Which is certainly not after Ive stepped on it with clean wet feet right out of the bath.
I vacuum the runner rug when I vacuum our bedroom.For showering – we dry off in the shower, so our rug doesn’t even get wet. And if the rug gets a little damp, it’s clean water.
FWIW, I think it’s way grosser to leave a wet towel on the floor covering a bathmat. The only way I think OP’s husband is reasonable is if there is water spraying all over the place, in which case you need a better shower curtain system then bathmats.
Anon
If he’s getting the towels wet after covering the bath mat with them (which is weird but ok) then doesn’t he hang them up after? Like before his shower he throws a towel down and then after he hangs it on a hook or whatever. Otherwise wouldn’t you have musty towels on the floor? You can then use the bath mat like a normal person.
Anon
Your non slip rug is washable and if you haven’t been washing it, sorry but ewwwww.
Anon
OP has the opposite problem of not washing enough.
MechanicalKeyboard
Thanks for all of the replies, seriously. After reading through them I can see that 1. My problem is stupid 2. My husband might be a bit unreasonable here. I’m going to combine a few of the practices above to cobble together something that’s clean enough without being a wasteful time-suck.
HW
I will also just add – I do the majority of my toweling off while still standing in the shower after I turn the water off, so I’m mainly dry (with my hair in a towel) by the time I’m stepping onto the bath mat. Maybe drying off in the shower would work for your husband?
Anonymous
There used to be something called a “bathmat” that was actually just a thick small towel that you laid down on top of the bath rug to keep the rug from getting wet. You were supposed to hang it up to dry between uses and wash it once a week with your towels. They were sold as part of a set of towels.
Anon
Right, like what they have at hotels.
anon
They still sell these, but they’re harder to find. I found a pair at Homegoods last year, and exactly one this year after driving to four separate Homegoods in our metro area.
Anonymous
If you haven’t already, google Kitty Spencer wedding dress. It’s a dream. She’s stunning. And 30 and marrying a 62 year old man, 5 years older than her father?!?! Any British readers have more info on that nonsense?
Anonymous
I feel like the white dress was a hair too corset-looking (like those pnina dresses on say yes to the dress). The others I loved.
Re the age thing . . . I guess as the daughter of an Earl (who has a son by a subsequent wife, IIRC), she has $ so is not a broke cutie marrying much older. But she surely has options and I am guessing that pretty girls attract so many idiots that maybe someone who is not bro-tastic can be appealing. IDK. But I loved seeing the dresses. I’m not a veil person, but I also thought that was very lovely.
Anon
“I am guessing that pretty girls attract so many idiots that maybe someone who is not bro-tastic can be appealing. ”
Yep.
Anonymous
I was never pretty (sort of the awkward person models always describe themselves as being but never outgrew it). My cousin is beautiful and my sister is pretty and they definitely had to deal with this.
Anon
I was probably very attractive in my 20s (people were just so weird about my looks it’s hard to say) and am maybe reasonably attractive at 40. My husband used to be shocked that I was so interested in him, and then he heard the tales of how I was treated by men before him. HAHAHAHA. It’s like, you didn’t paw at me, make lewd comments about my b00bs, or ask what my lingerie was like, of course I married you in a hot second.
Anonymous
Another thought — a friend of mine definitely did not want kids. She envisioned herself married to an older guy who already had had kids where there wouldn’t be so much pressure on her to have kids. That was often a deal breaker when dating (Catholic friend, very Catholic area of the US).
Senior Attorney
He’s a billionaire. I would not at all assume she has plenty of family money and I definitely assume this is about the dough.
Senior Attorney
Also I loved all the dresses.
Anon
I tried looking this up, and what I found was she was heading into the marriage with $99 million. I saw different estimates for him, but few that were much more than that. So I’m not convinced this is about money. Though certainly money can be a fountain of youth for some!
Anon
The Victorian dress she wore for the ceremony wasn’t my cup of tea (but pretty in its own right), but I loved all the other dresses. Wow!
London (formerly NY) CPA
Same! Those flowery dresses were to DIE for
Cat
I want to know the logistics of her wedding. She had how many dresses – 5? 6? When did she wear them all???
Anonymous
Ceremony, reception, after party, rehearsal dinner, next day, I think!
Flats Only
I am sorry, but that is one ugly dress! The lace looks cheap, and I really hate the puffed sleeve / high neck combo. And the see-through bodice just looks tacky. I suppose it’s a high fah-shuuun look, but ugh. I will say that the tailoring/engineering of the bodice and sleeves looks flawless.
Anonia
I liked the dress, mostly because it had sleeves and that is different from trends around me . I’m so tired of the backless, strapless, torso cut outs, gravity defying dresses that are mega popular in my area. They all start to look the same after awhile. I’m not trying to get women to cover up, wear whatever makes you feel good, but I like variety. The blue floral dress with the giant (ruby?) necklace was stunning.
Anon
If I never see another strapless wedding dress again it will still be too soon!
Anon
Wow. She’s stunning. Her dresses are so, so Dolce and Gabbana. What a great ad for them.
Anonymous
Email etiquette question for private practice folks- who do you cc/bcc and when?
I am a senior associate and it seems like there is a wide range of preferences between cc’ing an assistant, or five paralegals/associates/assistants.
anon
This depends so heavily on the context that I don’t really know how to answer it in the abstract.
Anon
Contract partner here. For communications to opposing counsel, I cc all counsel with an appearance to keep everyone looped in and stay above board. I will also cc their assistants/paras if they have requested I do so.
I cc my own associates who are working on the case with me on everything, as I see it as a way for them to learn, keep up with the case, and it provides them with context about tasks they are completing.
I will cc the practice group leader if there is a reason they need to be aware of what is going on, but this is mostly related to coverage issues. For example, if I am going on vacation for 10 days and something is coming up that the associate can’t handle, I will cc the leader of my group on communications occurring a couple days leading to when I will be out of the office so they aren’t blindsided by something that might arise (this is rarely necessary, but I have done it a couple times over the years). I have been doing this recently since I will be on maternity leave soon and will be out for several months. This last part is a very much know your own office thing. My practice group is small and tight knit, with the leader liking to be kept informed on issues, so this is encouraged for me, but I could see it being a problem in Big Law or another office.
I never bcc anyone on anything.
Cat
I never use BCC unless it’s an email blast type situation. It only takes one accidental reply from a BCC recipient and then you look shady. If it’s someone who doesn’t need to be on a whole email chain, I forward them the original message with a quick cover “FYI, I’ll let you know the result” type of message.
aBr
Can’t tell you how many times opposing counsel has BCC’d their client, and the client replies all. Never BCC on anything substantive and just forward the email to whoever you would BCC.
Anon
My husband had an affair a couple years ago. he was remorseful, ended it, has been amazing ever since and changed 180 the way he used to be (e.g., he helps with the kids/chores more than any of my friends husbands, will not hang out with any girls 1-1, lets me track his location, comes early, is very loving and kind, etc – literally what I have dreamed of for the first decade of our marriage, I am 100% sure he hasn’t cheated since, has been very patient with how angry I have been – including being very flirty/friendly with other attractive men as a form of revenge because I am petty, I have regained a lot of trust, etc), we were in therapy for a while and worked through our issues, etc. Everything is great on paper but I just can’t get over it/am still super angry about what happened, and I have become emotionally distant over the last two years. Now I have re-structured my life in such a way that I spend most of my weekends with friends (& my kids) and just emotionally I struggle a lot with him and not being able to forgive him. I can’t imagine leaving him because there’s nothing wrong other than this horrible traumatic thing that happen two years ago, but at the same time, I just can’t get over it. Is there any hope with getting over it, or any advice on how to? So far he has been patient because he said he was so afraid to lose me he was willing to do whatever, but it can’t last forever if I keep being this way. I genuinely want to be past it but don’t know how.
Anonymous
Get a divorce. You’ve tried for two years to get over it. It hasn’t worked. You’ve both done all the right things. Your marriage is over.
Anonymous
Not OP but this is so stupid. It seems to always be the advice here but I just don’t see how blowing up your family over something that happened several years ago makes any sense. How is being a single mom better than this situation.
Anonymous
She deserves to actually be happy and isn’t now despite trying for years to get over it.
anon
+1. The stuff some of you will tolerate just to avoid being single is really tragic. I know plenty of single moms and can’t imagine any of them would happily trade places with OP.
Anon
Amen, @10:18. In many cases, being a single mom is easier, since you’re losing the manchild.
Anonymous
Agree. Divorce just makes you single again. It doesn’t really solve the relationship problems and gives you more daily-life stuff to negotiate. Therapy, solo, may help.
Noemi
And Lord knows the being single is the worst thing for a woman to be! /s
Anon
It’s not stupid, it’s realistic. She’s tried for literally years, but can’t get past a betrayal. She’s already put more mental energy into the marriage than he did. It’s okay to stop rolling the boulder up the hill.
anon
That’s not necessarily true that she’s tried to get over it for years. Based on all the things he is doing now, I would not be surprised if she had spend the past two years trying to tackle this on a practical level but hasn’t actually addressed the emotional issues at all. I may be reading into this but this is 100% what I would have done in this situation – focused on specific “asks” and basically ignored my actual feelings about it because I’m very practical by nature.
I’d suggest therapy for the OP to sort out how she really feels about all this. Now that all the practical stuff is in a good place, time to do the work of figuring out where you are emotionally. They say that time heels all wounds but in my experience that isn’t true, eventually you have to actually grapple with your feelings.
The answer may be that she can’t get over it. It may be that she can. It may be that she can’t get over it but decides to stay with him anyways because she values the practical wins over being a single mom even if she’s not fulfilled in the marriage and just wants to make life easier.
Anon
Agree with anon at 10:42, the first year or so may have been just dealing with the shock and logistics. It may be something she can get past and it may not be, but it’s hardly been years or too much time for her to be in a decisionmaking place. Permanently blowing up your life (even if he started it) is a big deal, like it or not.
Anon
Different perspective: I’m not sure how much the OP was really allowed her feelings before feeling like she had to “get over it.” Joint therapy, not individual therapy, means that the focus is on healing the relationship and not healing OP. Husband’s kindness is a wonderful thing, but it probably means that the OP would feel like a massive jerk if she were to express the depth of her hurt.
I’m a cynic on joint counseling; I don’t think it works unless the couple is already on solid ground. It can be fine *in addition to* individual counseling. Reality is that one person may have needs that are not best served by helping the relationship.
OP
I appreciate this way of thinking but I would like to avoid divorce unless honestly nothing else works. I KNOW it is possible to forgive this type of things because I have seen others do it (of course if it keeps happening it would be a different story). I to my heart believe that no one is perfect (and god knows I am not) and I would like to avoid divorce because I have seen how awful it is from friends who have gone through it and also how horrible it is for children. I just want help with how to forgive rather than advice on divorcing (I wouldn’t need to ask here if that’s what I wanted to do – it’s a lot easier to divorce than it is to work on a relationship!)
SF chic
I think you are mistaken if you think that women who stay actually “forgive” when their spouse cheats. Many never forgive. I think a more reasonable word is that they “accept” that it happened. And have decided they can live with the repercussions. Your marriage will never be the same, and you are wanting it to be. It cannot.
Anon
+1
Anon
Hey listen, I wish you the best and am definitely team marriage, but your portrayal of divorced families is unfair and a little mean spirited. Don’t cast stones at us to make yourself feel better. I’d rather see my children have two happy, loving parents in separate households than live in a house filled with simmering resentments. I don’t consider one path easier, or more noble, than the other. We all have choices to make. Good luck
Anonymous
Yes this. Totally fine if you don’t want to get divorced but no need to disparage families that do it.
Bonnie Kate
+1 the “perfect picture” family is not more noble or right than a family that has separate households. I am happily married and no kids, so really don’t have a bone in this fight, but I think it’s really important that we not moralize the traditional family. A) traditional picture perfect families do not have the corner on happiness and there are plenty of families who prove this and B) believing in that picture perfect family can be actively harming those people who are in the families but have private problems that would “break” the picture, and suppress problems as a result of wanting to preserve the picture perfect.
OP, Glennon Doyle writes extensively about this. I highly recommend you read both Love Warrior and Untamed. She also just had a podcast episode with her ex-husband, which is extremely on point. The podcast is called We Can Do Hard Things and the episode is “REDEFINING FAMILY with Craig”
A little bit from the podcast that stood out – Glennon refers to her family as a “fixed family” – not a broken one. I think that can be a powerful reframing.
Anon
I totally agree with this. I grew up in a household with parents in a very dysfunctional, unhappy marriage and I frankly wish they had divorced. It would have made all of our lives much easier and happier overall. They stayed together because of cultural stigma against divorce but I don’t think it was what was best for my sibling and me.
Anon for this
Be careful with Glennon Doyle if you want to stay married. She’s been criticized with “Untamed” for glamorizing divorce and romanticizing finding her true love afterward. (I mean, she did come out as queer and met her now wife so I’m sure it was true for her, but that doesn’t mean it’s great blanket advice for all women).
Bonnie Kate
Re Glennon Doyle – yes, Love Warrior is about finding forgiveness within her marriage after her husband cheats on her. Untamed is a memoir where she gets divorced and remarried. Having read both, I think it’s unfair and kind of sexist to describe Untamed as glamorizing divorce. She’s a public memoirist who got divorced and remarried, was she suppose to pretend that she wasn’t happier now in order to not glamorize divorce?
Obviously OP, please don’t read those books then get divorced solely on the experiences written in them. I don’t think you’re going to, so didn’t think I needed to add that in my original comment. I do think reading books from those who’ve experienced the same thing you have is valuable because it makes you feel less alone in what you’re going through and having those emotions. You still have to do the work to figuring out what your road path is. Read books so you can feel less alone in your experience, and go to therapy to figure out what is true for you.
Anon
Well said. My parents just had their 50th wedding anniversary. My mother is regularly in tears about how emotionally abusive my dad is. But hey, golden anniversary! Woo hoo!
anon
I commented below, but I just wanted to say one more thing: OP, a lot of people will tell you that this is impossible to get past. And it may be for some people. But I know a lot of people who have, including my own parents, who have now been married for 50+ years and are stupidly happy with each other.
I wish you the best of luck.
Anonymous
I don’t have an answer. Honestly, I think that men often think this way re their partners’ affairs (whereas women are expected to get past it promptly). There is a good book on forgiveness I read once; I can’t recall the author and it is religious (but in an Episcopalian way), but the point was that forgiveness is a gift you give yourself (but even the author will say that forgiveness and remembering are often at odds in our heads or something like that).
Veronica Mars
If faith-based books are an option, “It’s not supposed to be this way” by Lysa Terkeurst to be excellent. It leads you through the process of deep grief over whatever has happened in your life and finding the way out of it (for her, her husband had multiple affairs, she left him and then was diagnosed with breast cancer). Incidentally, she did ultimately reconcile with the husband (she basically started the divorce process and that snapped him out of it, apparently).
OP
Thanks! I will check it out. Any book recommendations are very welcome.
ArenKay
I haven’t read this book, but Esther Perel’s *The State of Affairs* looks like it would be right up your alley, and I heard her interviewed about the book on NPR and thought she sounded pretty smart and realistic. For starters, she said what another poster wisely said below: your old marriage is over, you have a new marriage now. Might be worth a look.
Anon
I think you have to either rebuild trust and a new shared relationship (joint and individual counseling perhaps) now that you’re past the immediate phases of the betrayal. Or you have to admit trust was irrevocably broken and move on. Living in a half relationship for years doesn’t feel fair to you.
Anon
“we were in therapy for a while and worked through our issues, etc.” — it really doesn’t sound like you have worked through your issues.
Samesies
OP you clear have not. time for therapy just for you – before you give up on him and all the work he has done for you and your family.
– in the same position as you, occasional rage black outs monthly, but getting to be quarterly! progress!
Anon
Go to therapy alone. It might not save your marriage but it will save your sanity.
Anon
This. I’m often a dtmfa, but I also believe in forgiveness for one mistake. If that’s what it was – I’d have an easier time with a drunken fling, a very hard time with a full blown emotional affair. More therapy will help you sort out your feeling here.
Anonymous
It’s easy to say you’d forgive when you haven’t needed to
Anon
How do you know I haven’t?
Been There
Not the Anon who posted this, but I could have been. And you should never make assumptions about what other people have or have not been through.
Signed – Someone who has actually been through this and decided to forgive and move on.
Anon
Ditto the others – more therapy for you. You can decide whether you can work through this or whether it’s time to move on.
Anon
Just because he’s been acting the way he “should” since the affair doesn’t mean you owe him forgiveness. You’re not an emotionbot that he can insert the proper number of behavior coins into to get the correct response.
It’s okay if you can’t get over it and need to move on. That doesn’t mean there’s something wrong with you. It means that what he did is unforgivable, despite his actions after the fact. Please reframe your thinking to remove your self-blame.
OP
Thanks for everyone’s responses so far. All of you are right that I didn’t quite work on the emotional side of things on my own (I tried, but I honestly don’t know how)… if anyone has any advice in addition to therapy that would be amazing. So far my best attempt has been to once in a while (but not often) talk to my husband about how I feel and once in a while (also not often) journal and also avoid by having an emotional affair myself (I am not blameless either) and focusing my energy on a lot of other aspects of my life.
Anon
Oh girl, definitely go to herald for yourself. That’s all about you, your desires, your feelings. You can’t work this out with your spouse. You need the room to feel all your feelings. You can try to talk to friends, but they’ll be more guarded or sided than you need (you either get neutral b/c you might stay together and she doesn’t want to strongly bash your spouse or you get the “dump him, he’s a jerk” friend and that’s not helpful either). Find a therapist you like. Ask around, I’m guessing more people than you realize have one they like.
Anon
Therapy, not herald, I wish here was a solution called herald…
Anon
My first recommendation is individual therapy
My second recommendation is individual therapy
My third recommendation is individual therapy
You can get therapy on an app now. You can get it via Skype/Zoom. You can get it all different kinds of ways. Your insurance may cover it, but if not, take money out of savings to pay for it. If you had cancer, you would use savings to pay for need to.
I speak from experience: I have a complex relationship with my mother and I tried for years to read books, meditate, journal, etc. on my own to get to the root of my feelings about her and why our relationship was so problematic. I went to therapy and within five sessions had worked out so.much. that helped me understand why things were the way they were, and more importantly, understand that they were unlikely to change, and what I could do to cope. Therapy was life-changing for me. LIFE CHANGING. I don’t know if I would still be here without it. And I was only in therapy for about a year.
By all means, keep journaling. Meditate. Engage in self-care. Scream into pillows. Go for long walks and contemplate. But please don’t skip the therapy part. I will just say I was reluctant to go to therapy for many years and resisted it because I knew a bunch of emotional stuff would come up that I would then have to deal with. If I just didn’t go to therapy, I wouldn’t have to confront all the baggage I had stuffed back into the deep recesses of my psyche. All of that stuff eventually started feeling like floodwaters behind a dam, and then the dam started to crack and leak. Therapy let me break down the dam and let the waters flow, and living without the pressure of all of that “stuff” in the back of my mind has been the most freeing experience I’ve ever had. Therapy is hard, but it’s so worth it.
anon
I will second everyone’s advice for therapy for you. I think you probably need a space to have a very, very honest conversation with yourself about whether you still want to be married to him, and if the answer is “no,” is it “no for now” or “no forever.”
I know multiple couples who have recovered from infidelity and have gone on to longstanding and very happy marriages. But being able to do that depends heavily on both parties still being committed to the marriage – and not just committed to the marriage, but to the other person.
In my experience as a person who has been there, if your partner is unfaithful, you can get to a point where your anger, your sense of being wronged, and your status as the victim actually begin to feel comfortable. That becomes your emotional dynamic – you are the victim and you can act out in various ways because you are the victim, and he becomes the bad guy who hurt you and he just has to take it. I’m not saying this is 100% your dynamic, but based on what you’ve said, it sounds like there’s a little bit of that.
If you want to keep your marriage, and have a relationship with him in the future, you have to let go of the victimhood and the desire for revenge and all that. You have to allow yourself to be vulnerable to this person again, instead of building an emotional castle to protect yourself from further hurt. You have to even though you may be saying to yourself, “But I’m justified in feeling this way! He did the bad thing! It’s his fault!” You are! He did! It is! But the question is really how you’re going to live now, and what choices you’re going to make now, and those are *your* choices, not his.
TL DR: it may not feel like it’s fair, but it basically comes down to this: you can continue on as you are now, and he won’t be able to hurt you again because you’ve withdrawn from him emotionally and built up your defenses. But you’ll also never be in love with him again, and you’ll never have an emotionally healthy partnership again. And ultimately, you guys will probably get divorced regardless, although there may be a lot of long miserable years between now and then. Get therapy for you, and figure out if, in your heart you’re really at “no forever.” If you are, then you’ll know what to do. But you need space to make that decision for yourself.
Anonymous
+1 so much to all of this
anon
Here’s the tough answer: it’s going to be hard. It sounds like you want an easy solution like reading a book but really the answer is you need to work through your feelings. And that’s really hard! People recommend therapy because it’s really helpful having someone else assist with processing. You could also talk to friends or your spouse but that presents different challenges or journal about it but at the end of the day the only thing that is going to work is to actually do the work yourself. It sucks. I’m sorry. But just like there is no easy solution to lose weight or train for a marathon, the answer is you need to do the work. You could read all the books or listen to all the podcasts, but at the end of the day until you take the time to process your feelings yourself, it’s not going to make a difference. The books or podcasts may help prompt you to do the work, but you still have to actually do it. Hugs, I know it’s tough. And totally unfair because you’re not the one who did anything wrong.
Anon
Omg go to therapy.
Anon
[deleted by mgmt]
Anonymous
Nothing worse than being fat, right??? Thanks for throwing that in for absolutely no reason.
No Face
What the what is this comment.
Anonymous
Huh, I always envision them as gorgeous 22 year olds who’ve never had a problem in their lives. I think “go to therapy” gets thrown around like it’s a magic wand. Like ok I’m coming here for advice, maybe at least give some insights about what specifically I might be able to work through in therapy? Or what you experienced and how therapy changed your perspective? If you have nothing to contribute then idk maybe dont contribute, at least not in a critical vs supportive way.
Anon
We project on others what we dislike about ourselves.
Anon
I picture them as people who have never overcome any sort of big problem, either because they live charmed lives and are blind to their luck, or they don’t actually solve their problems.
That’s beside the point, though. “Omg go to therapy” is not productive, especially as the OP has already been to therapy for two years. More therapy is about as helpful as more vitamins when you still have a deficiency.
Anon
Anon @ 1:58 she’s been in couple’s therapy and people are telling her she needs individual therapy. It’s incredibly obvious she hasn’t been able to deal with this on her own, telling her to see a professional for help is not at all unreasonable.
Anon
Anon at 2:21 pm, the exact quote from a person above is “Omg go to therapy.” That is hardly the same thing as people – myself included – discussing the differences between joint and individual therapy. Anon at 11:49 was not being helpful, full stop.
anon
Here’s one more reason to go to therapy. Divorce is not the same thing as moving on or putting it behind you. My in-laws are divorced. My FIL was not unfaithful (at least, as far as anyone knows), but whatever he did or didn’t do in their marriage, my MIL spent 30 years not forgiving him. It’s no way to live even post-divorce. Individual therapy will help you work through your emotions on this. It’s not a promise that you will stay in your marriage. But, whatever you decide with respect to your marriage, therapy will be helpful for your future.
Anon
This is a great point.
Anon
Do we have the same MIL?!
Anon
My mother, maybe. It’s not healthy for her and it’s hard to listen to.
Anon
There are only two choices in this situation:
– You decide you can’t get over it, and you get a divorce.
– You decide you genuinely want to stay, and you then do the very tough, time-consuming emotional work on yourself to move past what happened, let your anger go, and go forward from there.
The affair is on him; that’s his fault. He shouldn’t have done it, it was wrong, and you were totally justified in being devastated by the breach of trust. However, the failure to move on from it is something only you can fix. There is no situation where somehow, he’s going to be so amazingly and consistently awesome from now until the end of time that you somehow forget about your hurt from the affair. His newfound awesomeness can help you suppress your feelings, but not help you actually deal with your feelings. Have you been to therapy by yourself, without him? If not, it’s time to go; if yes, and you’re not going currently, it’s time to go back. (If you are going currently, your therapist needs to give you some better support and suggestions on what to try to move forward.) What you’re essentially doing now is punishing yourself, and your husband, by staying in the same place emotionally. That’s not healthy and it’s not sustainable, long-term. It’s okay to admit you just cannot move past what happened, but then you have to split up, because it’s not fair to keep two people with the capacity for happiness firmly lodged in a crappy emotional situation forever. It probably also isn’t healthy for your kids, whether or not they know about the affair. Kids can sense tension between parents even if nothing is ever explicitly said about why there’s tension.
I wholeheartedly agree that the contingent of people here whose only answer is “break up/get a divorce” are not helpful with these questions (and I am about 95% sure most of those people have either never been in a long-term relationship or have been in maybe one bad one, and that’s the only lens they can look through). However, in this case I think divorce is a reasonable suggestion if you really, seriously, 100% cannot get over the affair. Because staying in a situation where you feel angry 24/7 and actively avoid spending time with your spouse is torturing yourself, and you deserve better than that. My heart goes out to you; this has got to be a really hard situation. I hope you can figure out a path forward soon.
Anon
It is so condescending to say you think people giving advice have never been in a serious relationship. Obviously that is not true, get off your high horse.
Anon
Sorry this was so triggering for you, but I stand by my statement. The only people who would automatically and reflexively tell a woman with children in a multi-year relationship that her only option is divorce have obviously never been in a long-term relationship where there is more at stake in a breakup than just packing a couple of boxes and moving out. Marriage is a complicated legally-binding situation that’s not that easy to get out of in most states; double that if kids are involved. Then you have the emotional ramifications for everyone, including children, who are emotionally vulnerable and will be affected by the divorce (not that I expect people with no empathy to understand that). It’s especially telling that the “OMG just divorce/dump him” comments are usually posted within a few short minutes of the original post appearing; pretty apparent those responses are not reasoned, well-thought-out suggestions. If you’ve never been married or been in a relationship that lasted longer than two years, please refrain from giving people in long-term relationships relationship advice that solely consists of “DTMFA.” Not helpful, not useful and a pretty transparent bid for attention. P.S., that’s especially true regarding the oh-so-charming comments from the folks who feel the need to say things like “OMG you should just dump that guy, all men are terrible, I don’t know why any women put up with men ever, I am so glad it’s just me and my cats, my adorable cat Snookums is so great and would never leave the toilet seat up,” etc. etc. Those people should stay out of relationship advice threads altogether, and stick to giving advice about cat toys and litter boxes. Since that’s their area of expertise.
anon
Wow you sound blissfully happy. Is it because of your awesome marriage?
anon
+1.
No Face
Very weird that you assume everyone suggesting divorce has never been in a long-term relationship. You seem to have a lot of anger about a dynamic that you made up in your mind.
Anon
“Wow you sound blissfully happy. Is it because of your awesome marriage?”
Yes on both counts, actually.
anon
Your anger over your troubled marriage is palpable. I guarantee your kids can sense it. Whatever choices you claim to have made for their sake are likely doing loads of damage. I applaud the divorced moms who teach their kids how to choose happiness, even if it means things may be a little harder for a while.
Anon
“You seem to have a lot of anger about a dynamic that you made up in your mind.”
LOL. That’s quite a projection there. Sorry you are so angry about..something, I guess.
Anon
Reality is that most everyone projects their own baggage when attempting to give relationship advice. The number of people I accept relationship advice from I can count with thumbs, and one of them in my counselor. The only thing worse for projection is gardening advice, and that is so actively counterproductive that I just don’t even bother seeking advice any more.
The OP has gotten some very thoughtful responses for what type of therapy to try, what she should be getting from therapy, and a rubric for making decisions going forward. “omg therapy” is beyond unhelpful.
Anon
You sound totally awful by the way, suggesting that all unmarried women are lonely cat ladies. But hey good luck in your marriage. Obviously you’re the only person anyone should ever listen to on the subject.
Anon
Anon @ 12:31, I agree with you.
Noemi
You sound like you’re still trapped in a miserable relationship, lmao.
Anon
+1. Does she also think we’re fat, bitter, and in our 40s? Some of us have done the very hard things that you consider bad advice and are better for it.
Anon
I didn’t post that comment and thought it was tasteless and terrible.
Anon
Right? “People who don’t share my opinion clearly have limited life experience.” Wut.
Anon
I think a lot of us who absolutely have been there and have negotiated really tough situations in marriages often say just get divorced, because in hindsight we spent way too long trying not to get divorced.
Everyone has their own dealbreakers, and affair is one of them for many, many of us.
Anonymous
My advice is each day to check in on how you are feeling, and then decide if that is how you want to feel. You can decide whether to be a seething ball of anger over the past that day, or whether to choose to appreciate the present. None of this is forgiveness, it’s just a decision on how you want to spend your emotional energy. Being angry is a waste of the present.
Anon
Get therapy and put in the work, divorce him, or status quo for the rest of your life. There isn’t a life hack for this.
Senior Attorney
Sadly, I think these are your options. And even if you divorce him you’ll still need therapy before you can really move on.
Been There
Let me start by saying that you do not owe him forgiveness. But unless you want to end your marriage with all that entails for you and your children, you are going to have to find a way. And if you cannot, then leaving might be the kindest thing for everyone involved because he cannot fix this for you and it is not fair to expect him to.
People here suggest therapy and that is not a bad idea. If you are a member of a faith community, leaning on that can help as well. For me it helped with wrestling with my own imperfections because while his transgression was the kind that is easy to condemn, mine were so much easier to justify and I really needed to deal with the fact that we are two flawed people moving through life together. And that my commitment to him and our children was more important that holding onto the anger that allowed me to avoid accepting my own flaws (or even truly accepting that the man I love is not perfect but that “perfect” objects of love are for children.)
For me (oddly) it was a completely out of context quote:”It isn’t easy, it doesn’t count if it’s easy, it’s the hardest thing. Forgiveness. Which is maybe where love and justice finally meet. Peace, at last.” For some reason it resonated. I could have peace or I could be angry. And I really wanted to have peace. And that meant truly letting it go.
anon
Man, your second paragraph rings so true. I think my relationship likely could have been saved if I had been willing to let go of my anger. At a certain point, staying angry was easy and gave me this societally “safe” role as a wronged woman. Deciding to move forward with him was frightening and everyone was telling me to leave, so ultimately, I did – only to realize that at some point you have to let go of the anger whether you stay married or not.
Anon
Some people can get past an affair, some people can’t. And neither is wrong. You’re one of the latter. You don’t need a “reason” to leave your marriage. It’s not working for you. Don’t ask permission of people here because they’re all coming at it from their own points of view (ie “I could get over it”)
Even if you decide to stay, you can accept that you will never not be angry that he cheated on you. That’s also ok.
OP
Not asking for permission. If I wanted to divorce I would just do it (don’t really need to ask for advice to do that – it’s pretty straightforward).
NYNY
First of all, I am so sorry that you are going through this. It’s awful, and it’s a pain that keeps going. Please be kind to yourself.
I agree that you probably need individual therapy to work through your feelings about the affair and the marriage, and you may want to join a support group of women whose partners cheated. I would also suggest that your husband needs to do his own work around why he cheated and how to have healthier coping skills in the future. This could be individual or group therapy. When a dear friend went through the same thing, she told me that the marriage they had was over, and now they had to figure out if they had a future marriage, and if they did, what it would look like. It’s a lot of work for both of you, but as SA says, the only way out is through.
Anonymous
OP – did you ever have an emotional connection with your husband? Do you feel like he has your back if you were to be sick in inconvenient ways (let’s say colon cancer/colostomy bag sick), or if you’re old and unattractive (or, gasp, 40s and fat)?
If yes go back to the emotional connection and foster it. Date nights, lots of alone time (which maybe was in short supply over the past 1.5 years b/c of shutdowns/social distancing). Therapy to help you.
If no then get rid of him (dead weight anyway) and work on yourself. Maybe I’m wrong but I sense a rage that you can’t will a “picture perfect life” into existence, but that’s one of the lessons of adulthood.
Anonymous
If this post had been flipped, the story told (your words, just flipped) from your husbands side, asking for advice, I would say DIVORCE HER. She obviously doesn’t trust you (and the root of that is on you!), no matter what you do and how perfect you behave and perform from now she will never let it go. You’ll be punished, and punished, and punished, that’s your new normal. No matter what you do, even never hanging out with anybody of the opposite sex, ever (WTF is that?), she’ll never let this new power dynamic go. You will go on and on until you can’t anymore, and then you’ll have a new affair and she will be vindicated. Just divorce her now, this is not a healthy dynamic.
That’s what I’d say to him.
To you, since you do seem to WANT to forgive him, or at least come to peace with this some way (and you don’t have to!): there’s nothing more he can do. You’ve got him under the heel, building distance and withdrawing. If you want to keep being married, you’ll have to stop punishing him. It’s not bad that he now pulls his weight at home, keep that! But you’ll have to stop punishing him in his and your relationships with other adults. If you can’t imagine ever doing that, it doesn’t matter if you work to forgive him or not, because that’s a terrible way for you both to live. It seems like you do think it will be worth it, which is a great starting point. :)
Therapy is what you need
I’ve been in your boat. Happened 4 years ago, his infidelity lasted months, he told me when the other woman’s husband found out and threatened to tell me directly. We worked through it with both joint and individual counseling. I’ve been seeing a therapist on and off for 4 years ago…about this and other issues the infidelity triggered for me.
At the end of the day, my DH is my best friend and I am his. He is remorseful and ashamed and has put in the work like yours has to show that he cares and wants to fix the mess he made. That counts a lot. I was and am in your boat. I’m not interested in divorce. It would be easier in some ways, harder in others. So I had to figure out a way of moving forward.
It made me really angry at first and I talked about this in therapy a lot – HE made the mistakes, HE nearly lost us this marriage, but NOW I need to do all this sh*tty work to keep us together? It is so unfair sometimes. I get it.
Something that therapy really helped me acknowledge: I can forgive, I can want us to move past….but I can never forget. There will always be random things that remind me of the betrayal. But therapy and significant self-work has given me the tools that even if I get reminders or flashbacks, I can reflect on it objectively, not hold it against him any more and move on. If I keep holding him hostage to my feelings, it’s unfair to both of us. Forgiveness is not what you’re looking – acceptance is what you need. It happened, you both have to put in the work, and you need to have coping tools for when you invariably remember or think about it again.
Anon
So I have a friend that did reconcile but she told her husband in no uncertain terms that she needed to go out and sleep with someone too to get passed it. She needed to even the score, regardless of how distasteful this sounds. She traveled, did the drunken one night stand thing and then the two of them both moved on (allegedly) from the other’s indiscretion. Obviously his was worse because he didn’t have “permission” but she didn’t ask for permission, she just told him she was doing it and he could stay and work on it or leave.
Only putting it out there since I haven’t seen anyone else suggest it. Might not work for all couples but did for that one I know…. as far as she tells me. She’s a very close friend so I think she’s been honest but you never know what truly goes on behind closed doors.
anon
Uh, yikes. I don’t think this is good advice.
Hmm
I think it this is an interesting perspective. What I think it does it take some of the power/sting out of the act of infidelity itself. Won’t work for everyone but I do see the value for some people. It is a tangible way to reclaim the fact that sometimes sex is just sex. Sometimes (often) cheating has nothing to do with the cheated-on partner and that reminder can lessen the feelings of rejection and inadequacy that so often come along with being cheated on.
Anon
I never would have thought of this, but I sort of like it. I agree with the comment on the power dynamic…that’s what this is about.
Emma
1. Forgiveness is about you deciding your present and future is more important than your past. That’s all it means — deciding to move forward instead of look back. That’s a decision you have to make, and you will when you are ready. Forgiveness is not saying what you are forgiving is OK–if it was OK, you wouldn’t need to forgive it.
2. If you have any kind of thoughts running that this affair means something about you – that you are not good enough, not worthy, not lovable – then you are inflicting pain on yourself. Those thoughts are beliefs that are just not true. Affairs are a desperate strategy to meet unmet needs. He had an affair because he thought it would meet his needs that he couldn’t figure out a way to meet otherwise, and he had lost hope of meeting in your marriage. It wasn’t about you. It was his own failure to understand and articulate his needs and discuss them openly. (It may also be partly your failure to listen or understand, if he did try to talk to you about his needs.)
3. People either have affairs as a way to try to stay in the marriage, or as a way to leave it. It sounds like you are both struggling to stay in it. That’s good, but you still have to figure out what both of your needs really are. When people talk about “communication” what they really mean is “communicating needs”, which first requires self-awareness of needs. You both have to do that work and have honest conversations about it. When you can both solidly trust that you know your needs can and will be met in the marriage, and the other person’s will too, then you are on solid ground, because you’ve removed the *reason* for the affair.
4. When an affair happens, it’s an opportunity to look at the bedrock of your relationship and rebuild it. It wasn’t on solid ground anyway, or the affair would not have happened. An affair is for many people a gateway to rebuild so much stronger, and it can be for you too. But you may need help if you’re not used to doing emotional self-awareness and growth type work.
Anonymous
Someone I patronize for a service had his computer removed unexpectedly from his place of business, lost the ability to take credit/debit cards, and appeared to be living in the back room of said place of business, now since closed. He has also changed phone numbers 4 times in the last few months. He reached out that he is working out of another place 2 days a week ,cash only. I don’t want to use him if he is in a criminal or drug situation. What do you think would cause this ? Not divorce because he still works with his wife.Not in a civil forfeiture state so can’t be that. Thanks.
Anonymous
This is such a weird post. It’s obviously something gone wrong in a shady way. What more do you think we know?
Anon
Have you googled him?
anon
Sounds like child p o r n. Hard pass.
Anonymous
+1
ThirdJen
+1. Could also be a white collar financial crime but my first thought with “computer seized” is always CSAM.
anon
What does “had his computer removed unexpectedly” mean? By the police? If so, then yes, he is being investigated for a crime, obviously. If something else happened to it (like…it got repo’d?) then that individually wouldn’t mean much – but the totality of what you explain suggests something not great.
If he lost his ability to take credit cards (and it isn’t because when they took the computer, they also took his processing equipment) then one thing that would explain this would be that his merchant processor identified a pattern of activity that suggested fraud or criminality (i.e., if you have chargebacks over a certain threshold, your account will get terminated and it will be hard for you to open a new one elsewhere). If he’s not taking checks or other electronic payments (like Zelle or Venmo), then that suggests he’s trying not to use a bank account or he doesn’t have access to his bank account anymore, neither of which indicates good things (at a minimum, he’s trying to avoid having income that is reportable to the government – at worst, his accounts are frozen, which again typically requires an indication of fraud or criminality).
Anon
All correct. Hard pass on this vendor.
Anonymous
Thank you for the thoughtful reply. That’s kind of what I was thinking. Will not use this person again.
Anon
There’s gotta be more than one person who does whatever “service” you get from him. I’d move on, that sounds shady.
Team Unity
Has anyone’s workplace done a great job of maintaining unity and “team spirit” during the pandemic? As we continue working through this pandemic, my company has hit some pretty major bumps in the road that we need to grit our teeth and work through. I’m looking for ideas on how to proactively encourage my team and how upper management can keep spirits up during this time – assume the company has been/is being great about providing vacation time that employees actually take, flexibility, etc. In ordinary times we would schedule happy hours or pizza lunches for team bonding, but that is obviously not on the table for the moment.
Anon
My company has scheduled Zoom happy hours with local breweries for tastings where they mail beers to everyone.
Team Unity
What kind of participation rates did you have in the Zoom happy hours? Did people enjoy it? I’ve been hesitant to do something like that since we already spend so much time behind our screens, but this may just be where we are right now. It does sound fun to have a flight of new-to-me beverages show up at the door, though! Maybe a spread from a local cheese place to accommodate those less interested in beverages?
Bonnie Kate
This is the first zoom happy hour scenario that I’ve read about that I actually would be into – 100% here for new to me beverages and cheese showing up at my doorstep then going on zoom to try them.
anon
I don’t drink so when I was invited to one of these by outside counsel, they sent me the cocktail box sans booze and it was great! I had delicious N/A Moscow Mules for a week! Food is harder IMO – e.g. vegan, GF, allergies, you’d need multiple food box options. Hassle and a half.
anonshmanon
My org has ~250 people, and has been doing a number of things, all entirely optional, and these are truly social (ie. if you don’t attend there is no work news that you missed). The most low key is a weekly virtual coffee break on gather, where you will chat with 4-5 people, and overall 10-15 people use this. Then there are meet and greet zooms roughly every 2 months (meet new colleagues, or summer interns), where the new folks give a 60 second introduction and then you have icebreaker questions in small breakout rooms. That’s usually attended by 20-30 staff. Then there have been 3 bigger online celebrations in the past year, where we had maybe 50 people attend. No free food, since we don’t have that kind of $.
It’s different strokes for different folks, so don’t expect that you can come up with an event that will excite everyone. But I’ve enjoyed the chats with icebreaker questions, personally. Like 50 others, I joined in the last 16 months, so it helped me feel more like part of a team.
Cornellian
I love that idea.
Anon
Please, no more zoom happy hours ever!!!
Anon
No suggestions because our office has done none of this. Good for you for looking for things to do! In local government public health and have obvious worked grueling hours. Leadership (at any level) has done nothing to maintain morale or thank the underpaid overworked staff. It’s been awful.
Team Unity
Ugh, I see you. Thank you for all you have accomplished over the last 18 months! It is hard to throw a life preserver to those around you when you feel like you are drowning yourself, but I feel like this is a critical time to band together so we don’t fall apart. Best wishes to you as we move closer to the resolution of the pandemic!
Anonymous
How many hours did you work a week on average during the height of the pandemic? I’m considering transitioning to government public health (I was thinking county-level), but the horror stories give me pause. Thank you for the work you do – even if your bosses don’t appreciate you, this reader does!
Anon
It really was all over the place. I’d say initial response so March-June 2020 was ~80 hour weeks and during the vaccine blitz it was 90+ hour weeks. Outside of that was probably between 50-60.
My team isn’t the main response team though, I’d say that team worked more hours and worked the long hours for longer periods of time.
anon
Yes: by speaking to each other in person now that we’re vaccinated. I’m all for flexible WFH policies but people are kidding themselves if they think offices and other organizations can maintain the same level of camaraderie over a long period of time with zoom-only gatherings. Why isn’t a pizza lunch”on the table” right now if everyone’s vaccinated? If you’re really that worried about small gatherings even with all-vaccinated co-workers, have a catered outdoor picnic or outdoor HH with individual champagne bottles.
Team Unity
So we actually never left the office (essential/response workers), but adopted liberal WFH policies to accommodate each employee’s unique situation and/or risk tolerance. We did order in pizza last week and it was amazing the difference some social time spent together made! We don’t want to do anything outside the office (ordinarily a happy hour would be at a restaurant or bar near the office) because cases have quintupled in our area in the last few weeks, but we could probably figure out how to do one in the office. Any other ideas? Anything out of the ordinary your employer did that made you feel seen and affirmed your sense of belonging?
Anonymous
I don’t expect my employer to make me “feel seen” (ugh). I want flexibility and no pressure to attend social events. I may differ from others here, but I don’t want my employer analyzing my situation and offering suggestions or even trying to fill in the role of therapist (which I’ve seen happen to a few friends). I want my employer to back off, let me do my own thing, and emphasize that it’s okay to do so.
Anon
Seriously. I think it’s the managers whose feelings really benefit from these events, more than it is the employees.
anonshmanon
I agree that these things should truly be optional!
anon
Spontaneous drinks in the office to celebrate small victories. Outdoor picnics. Just being around and asking about subordinates are doing, what they’re working on, and if there’s anything they need to talk about. Keeping subordinates and others “in the loop” about what’s going on, even if they’re not coming into the office. Hearing people’s thoughts and idea’s about upcoming decisions, because then they feel invested. (And not through weird silicon valley-esque internet polls — just by talking to people!) Encouraging people to take a vacation after a particularly hard stretch. No one thing, but lots of little things.
PolyD
My place of work has done a pretty good job, I think. Most important, the message from our top leadership down has been flexibility. If someone can’t make a teleconference at 8 am, don’t ask why, just accept that they may have childcare or other responsibilities you don’t know about. Same for evening calls. The head of my division also acknowledged that while the pandemic was particularly difficult for people with kids, it was also very hard for single people who maybe had no one to “pod” with – I thought it was great that he said this. So just a general message to be flexible and patient and realize although we’re all in the same pandemic, the experience can be very different for different people.
He also developed a weekly meeting, that we call “the show.” It’s one hour long, entirely voluntary to attend. We have local people come on and talk about what they do (we had a candy maker, a locally famous restauranteur, things like that). We also feature one employee each week, they come on for about 8-10 minutes and tell us about themselves and things they do – people share about their pets, their hobbies, things like that. Then there’s always an audience participation thing, like a quiz, or do you prefer deep dish or thin crust pizza, silly things like that. We probably have at least a third to half of the people in our division tune in.
People really seem to like it, and I think it has helped at least a little for people to feel more connected, and for new people to learn a little more about their colleagues.
Anon
My situation is a little different in that I’m a consultant/contractor. But pre pandemic I liked some people I worked with and disliked others. Being 100% remote has meant I don’t have to see the people I dislike in person every day, but I still have to see them on Teams and still have to deal with their passive aggressive emails, so it’s not like I really dislike them less. If anything, my opinions of them are more entrenched. No amount of teambuilding go-team-yay is going to make me delighted to work with assholes.
Anonymous
Give them raises and bonuses.
Don’t put a moratorium on all raises and promotions “so clients can see that we are tightening our belts.”
Brunette Elle Woods
If you’re going to do any sort of zoom, there needs to be an incentive like food or drinks delivered in the company dime.
Jimmy
its empathy, thats all, its an old trick that we just don’t understand these days, even with all that the word is banded around. Empathy for the situation another is in, taking just a small bit of time, before or after a meeting, an extra few minutes at the coffee machine, with full focus and energy on trying to find a topic of interest/source of anguish (to the worker), so you can then start to get an understanding of why they may be struggling in life/not performing to their best in the workplace..be it issues with other staff, customers, or just on the books…
Anon
After a super burnt out year, I was able to take off 1.5 weeks and today is my first day back in the office. I’m feeling refreshed and want to start off on the right foot. Looking for any tips or habits you’d all recommend for being productive, feel accomplished, etc at work. I honestly forget what work was like before burn out and how to have a good work ethic, be organized, etc.
For reference- hybrid schedule with a few days a week in the office and a few days a week at home. I’m in the office today.
Flats Only
I try to leave each work day rounded off as much as I can, by making sure to finish up little dumb tasks that I would be tempted to procrastinate on. I also make a good to-do list for the morning. It only seems to take a few minutes, and helps me disconnect at the end of the workday, knowing I’m all set for a good start in the morning.
Cora
I agree, the time I was most organized at work was when I made a little list of to-dos for the next morning at the end of every work day, and looked back at it the next day
Anonymous
Pomodoro timer. It seems gimmicky, but it actually works.
anon
+1 to the Pomodoro method.
I like to set a daily goal of completing 3 small things and working on or completing 1 big thing. It can be hard for me to maintain the balance–either I get sucked into a big project and drop the ball on small stuff, or I spend all day on small stuff and never get around to the big stuff.
Anon
I just moved and unpacking has taught me that holy cow I have so much stuff! I’m desperately looking to purge and then maintain a lower key lifestyle but honestly I don’t know where to start.
I’m not a huge shopper (so not sure how I accumulated so much!), and I’m somewhat frugal so I hate getting rid of stuff in the event I’ll need it again and have to buy it again. I’m absolutely interested in owning less , but not at all interested in depriving myself. My goal is to not own much but to own high quality things that I love, but I’m not there yet.
Anokha
I spent a few weekends last year watching the Marie Kondo show on Netflix in the background as I purged. I didn’t follow her method exactly, but it did feel like she was cheering me on as I got rid of stuff!
Anonymous
Same!! I’m not fully into her method but I like the gentle energy
Anon
Buy Nothing has really helped me with this: “I’m somewhat frugal so I hate getting rid of stuff in the event I’ll need it again and have to buy it again.” I have been able to give stuff away and know that if I need it I can probably get a ‘new’ one if I actually need it (although, my group is very active).
Anon
I love my buy nothing group! I moved only a few blocks but far enough for a new neighborhood/ buy nothing group and the new place’s buy nothing is not very active. It’s heartbreaking, I loooooved my old one.
Curious
If you’re still really close, ask your old mod if you can go back to their group. We have a few of these just-over-the-border folks and no one minds — they’re still so close and they were connected to the neighborhood. Plus they give away good stuff ?
Anonnymouse
So, I know it’s cliche now, but Marie Kondo’s book may be really helpful for you! I feel like you can take away a lot of good advice without going all-in on her methods. (I folded all my underwear for a while but quickly gave up on that!)
A lot of her best advice, I think, is about re-framing your mindset about your stuff. The “but I might need it” mindset is one she discusses, for instance. I also liked how she talks about gifts.
Also, she doesn’t give hard guidelines on what you should keep or not keep – it’s all about what is important to you.
Anonymous
The folding is actually one of my favorite things about KonMari. Looking at my drawer full of perfectly folded underwear sparks great joy. It’s a little island of serenity in the sea of chaos that is my life.
Anon
Once I accepted I might buy it again, it all got easier. And in reality, you remember you gave away the thing and it stops you from buying it again.
Anon
Part of it is due to the new apartment / new roommates every 1-2 years stage of life. We don’t need xyz in this apartment so I have to get rid of it, knowing I’ll likely need it again in my next place. It really really kills me!
Anon
That’s a cost of moving every 1-2 years with roommates. People make it work by staying with the same roommates for long stretches.
Anon
Would have loved to stay with old roommates in my old apartment but this stage of life is too transient for that!
Anon
Then disposing of and re-purchasing stuff is the cost of having roommates. Your only other option is to find long term, inexpensive storage (friend’s basement?).
Anon
I did the linen closet, the medicine cabinet, and my closet and dresser this weekend (all the productivity!), and getting rid of items I use-but-don’t-prefer was really freeing – the sports bras I only reach for when my preferred ones are dirty, the shorts that are “perfectly good” but I never wear. I also tossed expired meds, consolidated all the bandaids (how and why do we have so many??), etc.
Formerly Lilly
May I suggest Ann Patchett’s essay “How to Practice”. I read the Kondo book and though it gave me some excellent practical tips, the thought of engaging in her method overwhelmed me such that I felt frozen up and unable to move forward. The “How to Practice” essay gave me clarity, focus, and motivation. Also, Ann Patchett is great.
Anon
Oh, my goodness. I am midway through the essay and I am cringing and crying with laughter at the same time because, this is so me. “I had miscalculated the tools of adulthood when I was young, or I had miscalculated the kind of adult I would be. I had taken my cues from Edith Wharton novels and Merchant Ivory films.” Yep. Yep, yep, yep, yep. I own things that I will never in this lifetime use because I don’t live a lifestyle where I would ever, in a million years, have twelve people over for a formal sit-down dinner with multiple types of forks. I don’t even have a place to sit them all down! Thank you so much for pointing me to this essay; there’s gonna be some cleaning out done in this house this week.
Formerly Lilly
You’re welcome! It really hit home for me too. She does video book recommendations on Instagram for her bookstore (Parnassus Books) that are awesome – not really pertinent to this thread but I thought I’d throw that out there anyway. Also, if you are ever in Nashville, visit the bookstore! It’s small but well-curated.
Anonymous
Best essay ever. Need to print and send to a million people.
Anon
The only thing that helped me stop the “I may need this again” anxiety was getting my nutrition and lifestyle under control so my weight stopped yo-yoing. Most of my “keep or toss” issues were about clothing.
Anonymous
Same.
Sunshine
Someone said (maybe here) that if I don’t need the item anymore and can acquire the item again for under $20, then it’s a definite throw away. I know rebuying a ton of $20 items could add up throughout life, but so does the clutter.
Anon
Oh I love that suggestion – thank you!!!
Anonymous
Some youtube vloggers that might inspire you:
Vested Interest for inspiration for higher quality but less (start from the older videos)
Minimal Mom for lots and lots of techniques for finding the best level of stuff for you (just ignore the family bits)
Dana White for great decluttering techniques if you have trouble letting go, with perfectionism or creative imagination (she used to do blogs at a slob comes clean, mostly podcasts now)
New Job
I’m about to get an offer for a new job and my start date would be sometime in late August. I have two long weekends booked – one over Labor Day weekend and one in October. I’m a little worried about how it will be perceived if I start a job and immediately ask for a day off on my first or second week, although both trips are booked and paid for (and the October trip is the priority). Should I go ahead and mention both trips when I accept the offer or wait to start work and see what the culture is like? Alternatively, I can also change around my Labor Day weekend flights so I’m only missing a half or quarter of the day of work (or skip the trip entirely if needed) if that might make a significant difference.
Anon
You absolutely mention it when you accept the offer. I always expect people to have lives and wouldn’t care, but I’d find it odd if you said nothing and then started a job and started asking for time off.
No Face
Yes. I’ve told employers about existing travel plans and it was never a problem.
CHL
Yes – it would be totally normal to mention this when you’re in the offer stage. Super common, especially now when a lot of people had pent up visits to family. If you are remotely senior, I would assume you can take them. If you’re truly flexible on the Labor Day one, you could mention it but in a lot of workplaces, people will be taking time off around then anyways and so having the new person be out isn’t disruptive because you will still be coming up to speed. If you’re in a “coverage” type profession, it might be a little trickier.
Bonnie Kate
Definitely please bring it up during the offer stage. In my workplace, pre-planned trips are completely accepted in the offer stage, but if you started and then brought it up people here wouldn’t like that. I’m not saying they’re entirely reasonable in not liking it, but the offer stage is the time to do it.
Anon
You mention it when you get the offer, otherwise you look like the new employee who plans vacation after only a month and that is not a good look. Having pre-existing plans is totally fine.
Anon
Yes make your existing plans part of your acceptance. They will be unpaid days most likely but you absolutely need the OK to take them before you accept.
Anon
Ugh, thanks for the reminder. I accepted a job and forgot to mention my October travel but it is only two days off. I’ll definitely email them about it before I start.
Anon
The response when you tell them you have pre-planned travel for after your projected start date will tell you a lot about whether you want to work there.
wardrobe "category enders"
I think this may have been discussed here before, but does anyone have any “category enders” to recommend?Things that once you bought it, you officially stopped looking for others like it because it was so great?
I’m getting ready to go back to work in the office after nearly 1.5 years totally WFH. None of my previous work clothes fit (turns out the stress of a divorce is an unexpected diet plan…) so I’m basically looking to rebuild my work wardrobe in a more streamlined, minimal way. Higher edu, office is slightly dressier side of business casual but would love recs for any type of clothing.
CHL
Mm la fleur Etsuko dress. I could wear one all day every day. JCrew going out blazer. Back in the day when I wore pants with a waistband, Ann Taylor wideleg high waist trousers. Cole haan wedges.
Katie
For me, most of my MM LaFleur items are category enders like this. While I do pick up more items from them as I spot sales, their dresses have become my work uniform. I used to shop much more often, and owned a larger quantity of items from an assortment of brands, but these days I’m happy with owning fewer pieces. Theirs check all the boxes for what I like – simple, classic, no fuss or logos, and mostly solid colors. Recognizable if you know the brand, but otherwise pretty neutral. For specific styles, the Etsuko and Annie are hits for me. We’re also somewhat business casual (but I prefer to be a little on the dressier side personally) and find them to be very versatile.
In-House in Houston
Do they go on sale ever?
HW
I am basic but honestly my Rothy’s ended my search for casual office shoes. I also have a category ending Kate Spade wallet, and category ending knit blazer from Banana Republic (looks like tweed but is stretchy).
Anon
I still like the Eileen Fisher crepe ankle pants as wardrobe basics. They’re basically the only work pants I wear and I have two in black, two in navy, and one dark beige.
Anon
Ps I stopped wearing sheath dresses to the office about a year before the pandemic because my office was just casual enough that it was a constant “why are you so dressed up” situation. My new office uniform became flowy top, ankle pants, and some kind of topper whether a loose jacket or a structured cardigan. I’m tall so I like a longer cardigan.
If you look at J Jill Wearever that was basically my look, except that I don’t buy that stuff because I don’t like the fabric.
Anon
The Everlane Slim Wool Pants were this for me, but they’ve stopped making work clothes so eventually I’ll have to find something else.
ArenKay
Boden in general, but especially the Richmond pants (regular and 7/8 lengths). Basic, flattering, and because they are so specific about sizing I can just order colors I like. I think I have 5 pairs now.
Sunshine
Not the answer to your question. But everyone I know (including myself) who lost weight on the divorce diet regained it within a year or two because we lost the weight due to stress and not due to real lifestyle changes. If you wanted to lose the weight, then I hope you don’t regain it. I’m just putting it out there as something to think about as you purge and replace.
Cb
Talk and interview done. I answered some questions really well, slightly fluffed some unexpected ones. They said they’d notify by Wednesday.
Anon
Fingers crossed for you!
ArenKay
GOOD LUCK Cb!
miamia
Yay, good luck!
Curious
Fingers crossed!! Thanks for keeping us updated!
AnonTX
Looking for a dupe Nap Dress at a more reasonable price point. Any suggestions?
FWIW, I actually do live in these kinds of dresses, and live in a subtropical clime, but have similar summer dresses that were at a lower price point, but can’t seem to find the exact pattern (Ellie) anywhere else.
Anon
Just buy the nap dress since you want the exact pattern. Or look for it on poshmark.
Cat
Bloomie’s Aqua brand has a lot of similar styles for less, but honestly, just buy the Nap Dress.
Sunshine
Caphillstyle had a post on Friday last week about nap-like dresses.
https://caphillstyle.com/capitol/2021/07/23/summer-dress-week-nap-dresses.html
Anon
I am taking the Bar exam this week! Send me good vibes. I am nervous, but also incredibly excited to be done studying and move on with my life.
Formerly Lilly
Sending good thoughts your way! You’ve got this!
anon
good luck! you’re in the home stretch! sending you good vibes and reminders that you’ve got this!
Anon
Good luck!
Marie
Good luck! Just trust your bar prep and try to stay calm and really read the questions when you are taking the exam. Don’t try to cram the night before or between sessions. At this point, you should have what you need to get that pass!
Anon
Good luck! You’ve studied hard and you’re going to do great
Brunette Elle Woods
Sending all the good vibes!!!
Veronica Mars
I recall someone said a while back there was stitch fix dupe facebook group, but I can’t find it with searching. Any ideas of what that was?
House shopping
Is anyone else doing this right now and want to commiserate? We own our current home but it’s not working for us for a few reasons. We’ve been looking to move within our current area for nearly two years. Recently we found something nearly perfect but narrowly missed out on getting it. I’m frustrated and demoralized. It would be so much easier to move on if there were other options to look at, but there’s just so little available.
These are very privileged problems, I know, and I am grateful to be in a home and in a position to buy. But it’s still so frustrating!
Anon
This is the worst time to buy. Unless your current home is falling down, I’d get comfy and stay out for a while.
OP
I’ve looked into this pretty thoroughly and while nobody knows what is going to happen (if I did, I’d become a real estate investor) I think the evidence suggests that in my area price increases may level off somewhat (let’s hope), but prices are unlikely to fall in the near future. Demand is likely to stay high for a number of reasons that I won’t go into detail about here but essentially have to do with the age of the population, current affordability (which is low unlike in 2007), number of new homes being built, etc.
It’s a frustrating time to buy for sure and while I hope it will improve, I don’t think it’s likely in my area.
Anon
It’s when everyone thinks the market will never go down that you know you’re in a bubble. Sit on your hands for a year and make it work, then see where you are.
I’ve been a homeowner for almost thirty years in the Bay Area. Clearly the trend is upward overall, but there are still sellers markets and buyers markets. Wait for a buyers market.
OP
I’m confident that buying is the right decision for us right now given our particular circumstances.
Plenty of people are expecting a market crash but I think most people who have looked at the data say the indicators are not there. That’s not to say it couldn’t happen, but I’m comfortable with the risk/benefit on this decision (particularly since I’m both a buyer and a seller in the same area.)
Meh
People told me this when we bought our house 4 years ago. It’s only gone up in value since then so it we’d taken that advice we would still be waiting. Sometimes you can’t time the market and you just accept that.
Anon
+1, we also own and are looking to buy a bigger place, but we decided it’s not worth it (either the money or the headache) right now. Going to reevaluate in a year or so.
Anon
yes, we have been house hunting since February. We decided at the end of 2019 that 2021 would be the year we look for a house (obviously not knowing that a pandemic and the current housing market was on the horizon), and while we could change the timeline, our current space (a 2 bedroom apartment) really is not working for our family of four (I know that many people live in apartments with kids and I myself grew up in NYC, but where we live now it is not the norm and we are newish in town and it is impacting our ability to feel settled in our not so new city). there were two houses we loved, put in offers, but we just can’t compete with the offers 100k over asking. we are hopefully putting an offer this week on a house that is not exactly what we set out looking for, but checks many of the boxes. I am also an indecisive perfectionist who could probably spend 2 years looking for a house, but our quality of life would be much better if DH had a home office, and I don’t want to let perfect be the enemy of great. i know some people would say to wait, but our rent in our apartment is being raised significantly (i tried negotiating without much luck bc the building has an extremely high occupancy rate).
Anon for this
If it makes you feel any better, it still sucked in 2018-2019 depending on your market. I’m in a MCOL city that’s rapidly growing. We saw 40+ houses before the pandemic over many months due to lack of inventory, and then what was available was incredibly run down and (hah, at the time we thought) over priced. I think at a certain point, depending on where you are, it’s just going to suck and be terrible and there won’t be what you want on the market. The other thing I think that we were beginning to accept is that at a certain point, you may just need to buy the house for location + layout and commit to fixing the rest (yes, repairs; yes, bathroom renovations; yes; etc).
OP
Oh agree 100% with all of this. We were looking in 2019 and inventory was terrible then too. The house we lost out on actually needed a TON of work, but the location and bones were good (which is what qualifies as “nearly perfect” to me in this market.)
Anon
Back from vacation and I remember how bored I am with my job. I finished a super busy period in June and relished taking it slow but now it’s too slow. Most of my colleagues are still busy but my job is crazy slow (like I can easily go 3 days without a single meeting, I’ve gotten 2 emails all day, and I only have 1 project I’m working on right now). I’m someone who loves being productive – I know there are people who would love a phone it in job but I’m not one of them!
Work at my job is very divided by subject matter, so I can’t just hop on another project. I’d love to take classes to pass some time, but that’s not in the budget right now. I’m hoping to stay at my job for another 2 years for retirement vesting reasons, so jumping ship isn’t attractive to me now. I’ve decided to fully lean into other parts of my life to get fulfillment there, but that doesn’t help the 8 hours a day I’m bored out of my mind! I’m in person at work and need to at the very least look busy, but would prefer to be busy too.
pugsnbourbon
Are you 100% sure that your employer won’t pay for classes, or at least a portion of them?
Have you had a conversation with your supervisor about your workload? I know you never want to tell your boss you’re bored, so I express it as “capacity,” ie, I have the capacity to take on x and y.
Anon
Yeah I work in government so there’s no perks like classes paid for and it’s not in my personal budget (because I work in government).
Anon
What about some certifications through LinkedIn Learning or Udemy? A lot of libraries have memberships that will allow you to take courses for free or almost free.
allieoops
Sorry you are going through this! It’s probably not exciting, but your company probably has online classes for software and other items accessible to you for free — maybe you could try some of those? Also, it’s a good time to get any required ‘building life safety” video class requirements out of the way. Any chance you have any work-tangential online classes you want to take that are relatively cheap or available from your local library (Lynda/LinkedIn Learning)? For example, I would take online classes in data analytics or project management for fun, but it’s not really 100% applicable to my job, but I find them interesting.
Also, a great time to review documentation/processes/procedures/best practices.
Cornellian
Coursera or something like that online? There are so many free classes from legit universities online, if you don’t need an official certification, etc.
Anon
How about writing some articles in your field and getting them published in an industry journal? Or teaching a continuing education class? Writing up an office procedures manual if any are needed?
Cora
I bought this dress from Amazon and I really liked how it fits and looks. I use it as like a post-gym-cover-up and something to wear for WFH. I’d like to buy more but I don’t want to just buy from Amazon – any ideas for similar ones? It fits better than a typical tshirt dress, so thats why I’m having a harder time finding one
https:// http://www.amazon.com /dp/ B06XGRVT1Y?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2_dt_b_product_details
Anon
FYI – the link is not working. You might want to repost.
Anonymous
I’m starting a new job in-house soon, after being a a biglaw firm for my entire career post law school! Really stoked about this — seems like it’s going to be a good fit and just what I had been looking for. Hoping to start a fun and useful thread here. Anyone want to share tips for what they did or wish they had done at a new job to start out on the right foot? What to do in between jobs (a couple weeks, part of which will be family vacation)? What serious or trivial things I should keep in mind as I make the transition from law firm to in-house? For context, I’m a senior associate in a transactional practice. I’m pretty burnt out at the moment so my main priority is to get myself un-burnt-out. The new office is partially back to in-person, and I’ll want to go in physically more while I am new.
Cat
Establish a reputation as someone who gives practical, digestible advice. There is a LOT of TL;DR among executives.
CHL
+10000000
anon
X 100000000
OP
I am in a corporate senior level role and work with our in-house lawyers for various projects (new market entries, contract review, etc). Be the lawyer who is prompt in responses, short and directed in her feedback, and doesn’t needlessly complicate things by haggling over every comma and word in a contract which I am trying to wrap up. I understand you are protecting the interests of the company but a lot of times this directly conflicts with my desire to do business (within reasonable bounds). Use the 80/20 rule. I like working with lawyers who say: I have the following issues with this – A, B and C. For [reasons of infrequency or relative unlikelihood], you can ignore C and prioritize A and then B.
Anon
Repeating the advice I received here when I had a few weeks between jobs: whatever you do, don’t spend too much time on chores. Maybe pick one or two chores you haven’t had time for to get done, but that it. Also, schedule the things you want to do. For example, I would never actually make the effort to spend an afternoon reading in a pretty garden if I didn’t actually pick out a date and time to do it. You’ll be glad you did.
Anonymous
Company policy on masking has followed local mandates. When the city lifted mask requirements for vaccinated people, so did my company. We’re not required to be back in the office until the fall. So when I came back a few days a week and no one was masked, I figured they were all vaccinated and the unvaccinated folks must still be at home. Last week, the company sent out a reminder email that unvaccinated people have to be masked. Today is my first day in the office since the reminder, and all of a sudden a lot more people are wearing masks – people who weren’t masked last week. I’m trying REALLY hard to presume best intentions. Maybe they’re vaccinated but concerned about the variants and they want to be extra careful in the office. Right? Ugh.
Anon
Spending your mental energy judging your colleagues for things you’re making assumptions about is not a good use of your time.
Anon
Concur.
I’m vaxxed and I’ve begun wearing a mask again in crowded stores, as much as I wish I didn’t have to.
Anon
Also vaxxed and I’ve started wearing a mask both at the store and at the office, although we have not really been asked to do so.
Anonymous
Ooh, found the superspreader.
Anon
I know, she/he’s super edgy right? So impressed.
Anon
Nah, I’m vaxxed and wear a mask, I’m just not a crazy, unhealthy ball of anxiety like you all are.
PolyD
Most people I know who are vaccinated continue to wear masks in stores and such. My state is 70% fully vaxxed, my local area has even higher vaccination rates, and I’d say about 50% of people in stores wear masks. Heck, at my local farmers market, probably a third of people were wearing masks, at least when we were clustered together by a vendor.
Anonymous
Same here. Mask rates were hovering around ~40% in my highly vaccinated, highly educated area and now they’re up closer to 60% or even 70% at the grocery store and other stores.
Cat
I’m in Philly and last week masking in indoor-public areas was recommended for everyone – now rather than maybe 40% of the grocery store being masked, it’s like 75%.
Anonymous
I am vaxxed and still wearing a mask in public. I went in to the office in June and did not mask when meeting with others I knew to be vaccinated. I am going in this week and will be masking at all times, partly because community transmission of COVID has increased and partly because a lot of people have been getting nasty summer colds and I just can’t deal with being sick right now.
Anonymous
I would actually assume that anyone who is wearing a mask is vaccinated. Antivaxxers also tend to be antimaskers.
Anon
100% this. The more (correctly worn) masks I see in public, the more comfortable I am.
Anonymous
Live in a highly vaccinated area in N. Va. and masking is making a comeback likely due to the news on Delta. Went to the grocery store this morning and I’d say 60-75% of people were masked as opposed to 40% a few weeks ago; of course the type of person who doesn’t grocery shop on a weekend and instead goes at 9 AM on Monday is risk averse to begin with.
Anon
I’m masked and vaxxed, and will stay that way indefinitely. My dad’s eldercare has very strict requirements for me to maintain eligibility to see him.
Most people I know who are likewise masked and vaxxed are either dealing with an immunosuppressed family member, or just don’t trust others to act responsibility. I can’t blame them.
Anonymous
Sometimes it’s really obvious you’re surrounded by liars, too, like when you go to a county that’s 30% vaccinated and 100% of people are unmasked at the store. Makes it pretty clear…
Anon
Right. My favorite local bookstore never lifted their mask requirement and they justified it on social media as “Our county is only 30% fully vaccinated, so 70% of people should be masked up everywhere they go, but we see virtually no one in masks at the store, so we can’t trust y’all” It was a little bit nicer than that, but that was the gist. And I fully agree!
Anon
Although people who read would be more likely to be vaccinated.
Anon
I have a family thing coming up. I suspected my own sister wasn’t vaxed. It’s a long, long story but she is very hard to get along with in every way, and no one wants to bring up touchy subjects with her because it starts WWIII. Perpetual victim. Mostly I avoid her.
But finally I decided to ask her, over text, whether she was vaccinated. She said “no, and I will not be.” True to form.
There will be kids at this thing. I might go if it were just me but I can’t stand that she would be around kids.
So I’m not going. She will undoubtedly be there, unmasked. I warned everyone I could as nicely as I could.
FYI, she’s a nurse. Her thing about nursing has always been that she knows more than the doctors – ENORMOUS chip on her shoulder – and this is just another example of where that leads.
Anonymous
I’m sorry about your sister. I have a couple people in my orbit who are similar and who love to play the victim on vaccines and masking. It’s really rough and negative for the whole family.
Anon
It’s ridiculous that she’s not getting vaxxed, especially as a nurse!! We need vaccine mandates for healthcare workers, like, yesterday. But I wouldn’t worry too much about the kids at this presumably optional social event. As a parent, I feel like it’s my responsibility to make sure all the adults we interact with are vaxxed and if we knew your sister we would not go to a gathering she would be at.
Anon
I worry about the kids. I was the kid once whose parents believed “natural immunity was better.” Just because it’s parents’ responsibility doesn’t mean they’re responsible!
Curious
I wasn’t masking two weeks ago. Then I actually got time to read about delta and I’m back in my mask. Fully vaccinated but the risk of a two week breakthrough flu infection just isn’t worth it.
Anonymous
Same. I am both too busy at work to get sick and too dependent on hourly income to get sick. I’m not locked down, and I’m not 100% masking like before, but I am masking much more often.
Anon
Exactly. I work with scientists- we were unmasked 2 weeks ago but most of us started wearing them again