Frugal Friday’s Workwear Report: Wrapped Bodysuit
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Our daily workwear reports suggest one piece of work-appropriate attire in a range of prices.
A faux-wrap top that’s also a bodysuit? Sign me up, please. As a long-torsoed lady, a bodysuit is my best bet for a top to stay tucked-in throughout the day. This blousy V-neck from Open Edit would look perfectly polished with a charcoal suit or tucked into a pair of high-waisted, wide-leg trousers.
If you’re looking for other neutrals, this top also comes in ivory and a white/pale-blue pattern.
Warning: If you’re opening this link at work, the second photo that pops up shows the back view of the thong bodysuit bottom, so you’re going to see some buns!
The top is $49 at Nordstrom and comes in sizes XXS–XXL.
Sales of note for 1/22/25:
- Nordstrom – Cashmere on sale; AllSaints, Free People, Nike, Tory Burch, and Vince up to 60%; beauty deals up to 25% off
- AllSaints – Clearance event, now up to 70% off (some of the best leather jackets!)
- Ann Taylor – All sale dresses $40 (ends 1/23)
- Banana Republic Factory – Up to 50% off everything
- Boden – Clearance, up to 60% off!
- DeMellier – Final reductions now on, free shipping and returns — includes select options like Montreal, Vancouver, and Venice
- Eloquii – $29 and up select styles; extra 50% off all clearance, plus ELOQUII X kate spade new york collab just dropped
- Everlane – Sale of the year, up to 70% off; new markdowns just added
- J.Crew – Up to 40% off select styles; up to 50% off cashmere
- J.Crew Factory – End of season sale, extra 60-70% off clearance, online only
- Rothy's – Final Few: Up to 40% off last-chance styles
- Spanx – Lots of workwear on sale, some up to 70% off
- Talbots – Semi-Annual Red Door Sale – extra 50% off
I have a several pairs of jeans from the last 20 years. They all still fit, but I admittedly don’t like the fit today/ they aren’t current. There are probably two sizes in there, both of which I fluctuate to on a fairly normal basis.
Someone tell me: am I ever going to wear these again, or should I just donate them? I feel weird getting rid of “good” denim just because it isn’t on trend today, but if I’m being honest with myself, I have 4-5 high waist pairs and that’s all I’m wearing for the foreseeable future.
Donate and don’t think twice.
Donate. This is how hoarding starts. Free your closet!
The funny thing is, jeans from 20 years ago are current again! But if you’re never going to wear them again, donate.
IDK — I am read a couple articles lately re low rise jeans coming back. Archive if they fit and you otherwise love them.
If you like them and they fit, keep them. I think denim styles are going to change rapidly for awhile. And now we have seen bootcuts and low rise both coming back, so I’m happy I kept some jeans I liked from 20 years ago that I’m wearing again now. I don’t have a lot of storage and I am not into trends, but I keep a few pieces of clothing that I can imagine wearing again when the style cycles come back around to that item.
However, if you don’t like them, then get rid of them. Don’t keep clothing you don’t like. No one has a better day by wearing clothing they don’t feel great in.
I’m impressed that jeans you wore 20 years ago still fit you – 20 years ago I was in high school and an honest-to-god size 0. Those days are long gone.
I’ve been the same-ish size from 35-50. And in the “adult” phase of life, I am well past any extremes in trends. Give me a good jacket and jeans that flatter my pear shape and I’ll be good for a few decades.
I was fully grown in height and weight by 6th grade. And I didn’t have any children. I think those two have resulted in me basically having the same body since I was 12. Well, the b00bs aren’t nearly as perky now.
Lots of people can wear things they wore 20+ years ago. Aside from pregnancy, I’ve only gained 5 pounds in the last 25 years. When I buy something, I buy it to last.
I just had my fifth baby nine days ago at age 45 and am wearing the same size jeans right now, today that I wore 20 years ago. Very stable! But I have been a size 8 and full adult height
of 5’8″ since age 12 and was never a size 0!
I also would not keep these jeans. they never translate well even in future interpretations for me.
I’m jealous of all you stable-weight people. I haven’t even had big swings back and forth, but definitely enough to change how my clothes fit. Especially pants.
If you don’t like them that’s your answer. Holding on to things that you don’t like out of guilt or because ‘they’re still good’ isn’t worth it. If you want to feel better about it most Madewell locations will recycle old denim and offer you a coupon for a new purchase.
This. Even if they’re on trend, if you aren’t wearing them, they need to go. When I first started working I had no money, and i benefitted greatly from women like you donating their “these are still on trend and in great shape” clothing items. I always said a small thank you/karma prayer for those women because I was able to dress in a way that made me feel more confident on a very small budget. Maybe think of it that way?
I wear some things b/c they are just me: they fit, I love them, and I feel like a million dollars wearing them. Classic ME pieces get kept, trend or no trend. Things that don’t fit or that I don’t love or that I don’t actually wear or reach for — I don’t need that in my closet. There’s a reason for it’s non-use and I need to respect that. Someone else may love that and they won’t find it in my closet.
If you don’t like them, and don’t wear them, donate them. If you do like them and do wear them but they’re just not in style, decide whether being in style is important to you – if it is, donate them; if not, keep them.
I’m still wearing mine. Depending on what kind of shape they’re in, some are yard work/getting dirty clothes. Others are comfortable and I don’t care whether they’re “in” or not.
Donate them so that those of us who don’t care what’s current and are just looking for good quality denim that fits our personal style can benefit!
absolutely donate.
Donate them and let a hip 19 year old who could pull them off today wear them :)
I have the same question. i’m 35 and still have some jeans from high school (so 20 years ago. I wear them when I’m looking to feel in touch with that part of myself (like I wrote all over my jeans with my favorite quotes and very teenage things like that) I’ll wear them to get lunch with a friend or out for errands but not more than that. Also i’m a bit smaller than I used to be so they don’t totally fit, sigh
Are you a cool, boho type who has lots of vintage pieces? If so, keep a pair, maybe it’ll turn into a cool style like 70s-90s band tshirts. If you’re a normal person like me, donate them.
How are you feeling? It seems like you might be close now? Wishing you a smooth delivery!
Hi, thank you for asking! Still cooking for now (due next week). Definitely feeling like I’ve slowed down a ton in the last few days, but hanging in there!
Congrats – almost there!! Soon you will be enjoying all the snuggles!
Hang in there. It’s a strange liminal period. All my good thoughts with you.
Appreciate you, Curious! Strange and liminal are good words. Thank you <3
Oh wow, I’m thinking about you. Those last few weeks are the strangest time. I remember a 20 something barista asking me when I was due when I was reading in a cafe. I replied “10 days ago…” and he spent the next hour watching me closely, with an expression verging on panic.
hahahahaha!! I’m definitely in that space, even though I’m not due yet. I think for some reason it’s very common in my area to opt for the 39 week induction, and I wanted to at least try to go into labor on my own up through 40+some. But that means everybody in the office is surprised to see me walk in every morning!
I got a 39 week induction (because of my age and choice). Tbh, it’s underrated. I planned my last day of work to be a half day, packed my bags, and DH took me out to dinner and ice cream. I walked into the hospital licking an ice cream cone. It was nice to not worry about my water breaking during a meeting or burning maternity leave waiting for the baby to come. It was nice to have my doctor be awake and fresh when delivering my baby, and it was great to have her be my doctor (the one I saw for all of my appointments). It was great to not start the process hungry.
I was a few days late for my second and my husband took me to a fancy place for one last lunch because I was supposed to be induced the next day. I remember having contractions spaced pretty far apart so I just finished my lunch and dessert!! It was worth it lol!
When I worked retail, I was helping a very pregnant woman with a return. I asked her when she was due. She replied “today. I’m trying to walk him out.” And I was like … maybe not at this Kohl’s please????
And wishing you all the best, Vicky!
Haha thank you! Promise to do my best not to inflict it on innocent retail workers ;)
I took my pup to the dog park before my kid was born and half of a male, gay couple I knew asked me when I was due. I told him my due date was yesterday. He was visibly shocked and I’m pretty sure I saw him googling how to deliver a baby on his phone later.
Happy Frugal Friday to the hive! I love the wrap top, Elizabeth, and for $49 at Nordstrom, it really is a frugal choice for us! I have not been around my apartement much because I have been spending alot time with a guy I met thru work. He seems like he could have possibilities, and at my age, it’s not as if I have alot of choices, since I do NOT want a guy with kids old enough to consider me to be cougar meat for them. No way, Jose. It’s amazing that all of a sudden, I could be an instant “step grandma” if I married some of the guys who have come on to me lately. FOOEY on that! I wanted kids, but not instant grandkids. Im too young for that. Anyway, I am actually considering going on a weekend trip to DC with him, when all bets will be off. We will see, so wish me luck! YAY!!
I have a Simply Modern tumbler with a straw lid with a spout that I love, but it keeps geysering water out of the spout when I open it. I know that this is a physics issue. But has anyone found an alternate lid that works similarly as the straw/spout that doesn’t geyser out like that???
Have you tried filling it a smidge less to take a bit of pressure off?
I love my Simply Modern water bottle, and it doesn’t do this, but the air release thing is finicky, so I do think this is a them issue. Following with interest.
Can you just open and close the screw lid before opening the top to release pressure? That is what I do for my SM water bottles when I’m traveling and I know it’s built up pressure.
My nails are weak, splintered and cut very short. Ordinarily I do my own mani with a translucent pink polish and a shiny top coat. I have an important conference involving overseas travel and I need to look my best. Normally I ruin a salon-done polish manicure within a day or two, through my normal wear and tear.
Should I get a gel manicure? Other options? Thanks for your advice!
Can you buff your nails so that they shine? Hard to mess that up. Looks good always.
Gel will really wreck your nails.
Can someone explain gel nails? I’m super frugal so I haven’t gotten my nails done in about 4 years but was considering gels for a 2 week vacation coming up. Will they really destroy my nails? Can I get them done once and be fine? Are they super expensive, NYC area?
In my experience the damage with gel comes from the removal. You have to let them soak in acetone to loosen the gel and then use a tool to dislodge the gel from the nail. Depending on your nails, they can need a long soak in the acetone to get loose enough to allow them to be removed easily. A lot of nail places want to move clients through quickly, so you can have a situation where they start essentially scraping the gel off your nail, which will damage it. It should come loose of its own accord and removing it really shouldn’t require force.
Also, if your nails grow quickly, you will end up with a gap at the base if you try to leave them on for 2+ weeks.
Yes, the removal part is what is damaging. As long as you don’t care too much about that, I would say go ahead with the manicure for your conference. I love having my nails done. It’s makes me feel good and confident. It’s just a small thing, but if it helps you feel polished and pulled together I say go for it.
The gel is coated and then cured (a light sort of “cooks” it to your nails). Getting the polish off is really hard, so you’ll likely need to go back to the salon. Instead of chips, what you’ll deal with is growth of the nail and the need to remove the polish.And, yes, even once is really brutal on your nails. I honestly don’t think mine recovered until the entire nail had grown.
You can get them once and the damage will be minimal. I just ended a ~2 month period of having gel nails done, and the main difference I can tell is my nails are more likely to break because they are thinner, so I’m happy going back to dazzle dry/regular polish. Keep in mind you’ll likely have to go back to the salon to get them removed when they are grown out.
you can buy nail polish remover WITH acetone (a lot doesn’t actually doesn’t have acetone so you may have to buy it special) and wrap your nails with cotton soaked in that remover and foil for 10+ minutes to remove the nail polish at home. If you do the removal slow and without scraping the damage is minimal at most.
I’m frugal too. I got gel before a vacation last year and loved having it last the trip, and said I would make a point to get it before every vacation. But then the removal (at home, but I certainly don’t want to pay and have to go out for that, too) was a massive hassle, so I’m not sure I want to do it again anymore. I’ll probably just stick to my usual method (paint two light coats), then add another coat a few days later, then another a few days after that), which usually lasts pretty well.
I didn’t notice any real damage -they looked a little rough for a day or so, but nothing major.
Gel would be a short-term fix but long-term awful for your nails.
In your shoes I would do the normal sheer pink but purchase a gel-imitation top coat. Essie’s “Gel Setter” formula is awesome. Give it plenty of time to dry but it’s sturdy and attractive.
I’d do gel. I get it every couple of weeks and my nails are fine. If yours are already a mess, then you don’t really need to worry about wrecking them and you can go back to normal later. Gel lasts and looks good.
This is how I feel. My nails just are not great. They are very thin and peel so are always very short and don’t look great on their own no matter what I do. I’ve been getting dip and I’m sure they don’t look great underneath – but what do I care, they never look great?!
I did dip powder regularly for several months. My nails definitely looked bad when they took of the powder, but they stayed strong and didn’t break once I got a new manicure. I eventually stopped doing dip, because the place I went to never actually did a manicure where they cared for my cuticles. They just removed the dip powder and started in with a new application. I’m going to try a new salon where they actually do nail and cuticle care in addition to the polish.
Yes! You have to request the mani separate for the cuticle stuff and I do request it every time. My (dip) nails look really good now and every mani lasts me 3-4 weeks so I’ll probably stick with it for a while!
Agree with this. I go on and off a gel manicure cycle, but am on it right now and it is worth it for me. I have been going to a pretty experienced technician, and my nails feel really strong right now with way less breaks and cuticle issues. I just do not have the patience or skills or whatever to get my fingernails nice looking at home. On the other hand my bff is great at doing her own nails at home and can make them look really great, so salon gel manicures aren’t worth it for her.
My favorite hack right now for making gel manicures last a week longer is to go with a nude color base. the natural nail then blends in with the base and you don’t notice the gap.
I would file them regularly and leave them unpolished. Trim them every week to give them a chance to get nice again.
This. And buff them. Moisturize your cuticles. You can do this.
Cut short, bring clippers and a file. Paint with Sally Henson nail gardener for shine. Your nails will be neat and unnoticeable.
This.
Gel works for me, and it has never wrecked my nails. I get them professionally removed every time and never peel them (even when I want to!).
Every time I get a gel manicure I regret it. Removing it is horrific and my nails looks awful after. If I were you, I’d get a manicure before you leave without polish. But that way your cuticles will look nice and everything filed and neat. Then I’d buy a bottle of dior nail glow or something similar and bring it with you and apply the night before your meetings.
If it’s horrific you are not having it done correctly. They should never use anything mechanical in removal like a burring tool or a metal tool. Do the cotton ball/foil method above with acetone polish remove. Let sit for 10 mins. twist off cotton and foil and the polish will literally fall off with the twisting motion. No nail damage at all.
On the few occasions I’ve had gel, removal has never gone this smoothly. They start with the foil and cotton always end up getting out a tool and wrecking my nails. Never again.
I should have added this. Take a nail file (not a metal one) and take the the shine off your nails but don’t break through to your nails before you put on the acetone cotton ball.
I’ve NEVER had it go well and have had it done multiple times. Definitely wasn’t just a “soak it in a cotton ball for a long time” sort of fix.
No, stay far away from the gel. Why can’t you do what you’re normally doing? It’s pretty hard to mess up translucent pink; I’m not sure a salon mani is going to be that much better unless you’re wanting some extra shaping or something.
I would find a salon that uses Dazzle Dry. It will last at least a week and doesn’t wreck your nails like gel.
So this is weird but I started taking a calcium supplement and using hand cream, and I feel like my nails have been much stronger. I would just keep your nails clean and short, without any polish or treatment. Chipped polish looks worse than unadorned nails IMO.
Agree that chipped polish, or in my case, peeling off one gel nail at a time, looks worse than bare nails. I’m cheap and apparently shallow because I feel like no one really notices your nails – so it’s not worth the time and effort for me to go to a salon. I’m not saying no one should get their nails done: if it sparks joy for you then by all means go for it! Just for me the juice isn’t worth the squeeze.
Agree that gel will ruin your nails unless you keep doing it forever. I had good luck using Sally Hansen hard as nails. You can put color over the top of it, IIRC. This was a decade ago though. I wanted to love gel, but I always end up regretting it.
What about a regular mani instead but bring your own favorite OPI color and then take the bottle with you to manage any scuffs after the first few days? It will be much better for the health of your nails. I’ve had some really awful gel experiences. I’ve finally just decided it’s too damaging. Bonus is you can get a pedi in the same color.
I’ve worn full on acrylics with gel polish for years so I’m definitely on the higher end of the maintenance spectrum from most of the responses here but I highly endorse gels! They look great and will last 2+ weeks. In my experience, gels do not cause lasting damage to your nails–the damage is done to the nail that is there when the manicure is applied and any new nail growth will be the same state as your nails are naturally. The damage comes from the initial buff they do to rough your nail bed and then the removal. Removal should not be a hassle–a good/busy nail salon will removed dozens of gel manicures a week so they should have plenty of experience doing it–and if it is a hassle, I would take that as an indicator of the quality of the salon.
Is there a reason why your nails can’t look like they normally do? If I were you, I would take nail polish remover pads and my usual polish in my checked luggage and just do what I normally do. Or, skip the polish, just keep your nails trimmed and neat. That is a profressional look! (Unless you’re in some industry where nails matter.)
No one notices your nails, IMO, if you’re not constantly playing with your fingers, picking etc.
Use
Nailtiques formula 2, and only Nailtiques formula 2, on your nails for about six months. They will be much better.
This. Formula 2 is magic.
I hate the damage gel/dip does to your nails when they are removed, but for vacations I always get them done. I really like how nice they look for up to 2 weeks, and they hold up really well to travel wear and tear. I don’t have to worry about them chipping or looking dull.
Gel messes up my nails and chips, but dip powder works great.
Question to the gel fans who can wear the gels for two weeks – how do you handle nail growth? My nails grow super quickly and in two weeks they’ll be at least 5 millimeter longer.
Clear OPI nail envy. I had cracked, weak nails after hand foot mouth and used it for a couple months (thanks to someone here who recommended it!). It saved my nails.
Press on/glue on nails. They have been a game changer for me. They come in tons of lengths, colors, and last about 10 days for me (and I am tough on my hands/nails). I hate chipped polish, but feel like my regular nails never look good, so this has been a huge improvement. I get the Kiss Impress ones where you put on the glue yourself, but they also have press on ones with the adhesive already on the nail. I find these do not last as long though.
I stopped using gel and started using SNS for vacations or when I really need my nails to look pretty. It is longer lasting and the removal process – done in the salon – is not as hard on my nails.
I bought this bodysuit in ivory and returned it. I liked the top part a lot. BUTT… it does not have any snaps at the crotch!!!
So how in the world is it supposed to stay in place? I wore a few bodysuits in the ’90s, and I don’t think I ever will again. Cr0tch snaps are not comfy.
It stays in place because the bottom is like a panty. That means you have to remove your pants/skirt and then remove the entire bodysuit to use the bathroom. You could slide the thong panty over to avoid completely undressing but I didn’t like that idea.
No way. I would have done exactly the same thing. Return. That sounds annoying.
This is why I gave up on jumpsuits because I hate getting naked to use the bathroom!! No thanks.
yeah, I don’t mind going Lifeguard Style when in an actual swimsuit, but not in street clothes. Pass.
That’s not a bodysuit, it’s a leotard!
That is a shame. I wear bodysuits with snaps, but I wouldn’t consider one otherwise.
TW: pregnancy termination
I just want to say thank you to all the women out there who donate to help other women afford abortions.
I’ve posted before about “adopting” a refugee family. They’ve been here 6 months, and the mom discovered she was pregnant about 2 months after arriving. They have 5 children already and are trying to rebuild their lives in a foreign land with their only worldly possessions being the contents of a few suitcases. She found out yesterday at her 22 week ultrasound that the baby has severe birth defects that far outstrip their ability to handle, even in the best of circumstances.
This child was a surprise, but loved and wanted. They are amazing, loving, doting parents to their other children. They are devastated and heartbroken. And so sadly grateful for the generosity of others to help them cover the $10,800 procedure.
Thank you to all the women who help other women in this terrible time – through donations, through escorts, through housing, and perhaps most of all, with your empathy.
Thank you for sharing this. My heart goes out to their family – what a tragedy. I’m grateful they were able to get the support they needed.
Good heavens, it that what it costs these days??
That late, yeah. There’s probably travel costs involved to get to a different state. I think only a handful of states do terminations that late, even pre-Dobbs. First tri termination is much cheaper.
OP here. Luckily, we’re in the DC area, and there is a local provider who will do it up to 31 weeks. So that cost is just the cost of the procedure – no travel costs.
At 22 weeks, it probably costs the same as a full term delivery. Sad situation.
My D&C for a late first trimester pregnancy loss was $18,000 (but covered by insurance). At 22 weeks I’m surprised it’s that little, tbh.
If you don’t have insurance, you usually pay a lot less than what the insurance would pay though. My kid had occupational therapy appointments and when they ran them through insurance we paid $500 per appointment until we met our crazy high insurance deductible. The out of pocket cost for the uninsured was $35. Super frustrating and one of the most messed up things about healthcare in the US imo.
I work in health care and I’ve never heard of an Uninsured discount that low for adult care. The occupational therapist lost a lot of money by charging only $35 so that must be a very unusual public/subsidized hospital clinic that had donations from someone/somewhere. Sometimes you see things like that in pediatrics, where lots of organizations fund raise and donate to children’s hospital just for this purpose. And if you are poor, most children can get their care totally free. A hospital near me gives huge subsidies if you make < 400% of of the poverty level for adults as well. The application for getting aid is worse than filing your taxes, but it's good. And I think most poor/working poor people don't even know and don't apply for it.
The more typical is to give a 20-50% discount off list price if you are paying cash, and it varies with the whims of the hospital/clinic. It is usually not cheaper than with insurance, unless you are low income.
I recently had an out of network doctor at a famous academic hospital visit for a second opinion. My insurance was billed almost $800 and my out of network bill came to me for the full amount. I told the clinic I wanted to pay out of pocket with the self pay discount. They hemmed and hawed and kept suggesting they couldn't do that "since I had insurance" and kept telling me to call another department etc.. and then no one would return my calls. For 2 months I wasted time on this. I knew I had the right to ask for this discount and self pay – which I confirmed before I even scheduled the appointment – and they just didn't want to give it to me. Once I started asking for higher and higher supervisors and saying how they were trying to commit fraud and I was documenting all the phone calls about their mistakes and non-compliance did they agree to give me a 50% discount. And they made it sound like they were doing me a favor. That discounted pricey was still much higher than the discount with insurance.
In the OPs scenario, the family was probably not eligible for subsidized care because they were not citizens, although there are many clinics and hospitals in California that would give free care to non-citizens when I worked there. Aborti0n care, as we know, can vary wildly across the country though.
OP here. The refugees have their green cards (they’re vetted refugees who came in the “right” way through USCIS), but they’re on Medicaid. We’re in Virginia, and Medicaid will only cover abortions for rape/incest, life of the mother, and “gross and totally incapacitating deformity.” Sadly for this family, the birth defects are severe and significantly life-limiting, but don’t rise to the statutorily required level, so the family has to pay out of pocket.
Thanks for sharing this additional info OP. It is good for us all to understand.
Such a sad story. Where would you suggest donating?
Check out the National Network of Abortion Funds, which also lists any local funds that might call to you!
This. I have a reoccurring monthly donation to the abortion fund active in my state.
OP I’m really glad they were able to get assistance.
OP here. For funding, we were directed to first check with the National Abortion Hotline, then with the National Network of Abortion Funds. We were told that demand is extremely high at NAH.
The clinic also said that they have a private network of local donors they can reach out to if those two orgs can’t help, so it seems like your donations anywhere would be meaningful.
(As always, Planned Parenthood is a good option, but they only do up to 19 weeks here. I don’t know if that’s a national or local policy for their org. Abortion is legal at any time in the District of Columbia, so PP made the choice to cut off at 19 weeks. And while legal, it’s my understanding that there’s no one local to do it after 31 weeks.)
Thank you for sharing. These funds (google “a-word fund [state]” to find your local one, or head to National Network of A Funds to find on) do so much important work to make this procedure accessible even if its technically legal. I donate to my blue state’s fund as well as my home/neighboring red state’s.
That’s so incredibly sad and difficult. Best of luck to them.
For those asking where to donate. I JUST heard a speaker this week say the Brigid Alliance is doing amazing, compassionate, critical work right now.
Thank you for sharing this story. I think it’s very important for everyone to hear the full range of human experience that pregnancy termination impacts. There are so many awful situations that happen, that are not visible to many people.
Any advice or stories from successfully applying for an internal job posting?
I work in software development and a developer I worked with several years ago contacted me out of the blue asking if I would be interested in a role on their team. The job would be similar to what I do now, just working with a different type of product. And it would be at the next pay grade for my role.
I definitely want to apply, but company policy requires me to notify my manager before I apply. I need to do that today and I’m so nervous. My current manager is fine and actually very hands-off. He manages a lot of people and we never have one-on-one meetings outside of my yearly performance review.
I wish I could just send an email to Teams message, but I should talk to him in person, right? He’s in another state, so it would just a phone conversation.
I really want to get this done today so I can submit the application and not worry about worry about it over the weekend.
Isn’t this what the compliment sandwich was invented for? And notes that you follow while you’re talking? Your notes can look like this:
1. Enjoyed working on your team.
2. Internal job posting that has X, Y, Z elements that current role does not have.
3. Have enjoyed working in current role and want to grow. Happy that such a role opened up within company. Notifying you per company protocol.
4. We will keep in touch during the process so that if I get the role, I can assist with a smooth transition.
Thanks! This is really helpful. I honestly was not even looking for a new role, but it looks like a good opportunity. I will type up some notes so I don’t get sidetracked during the discussion.
FYI, if you’re applying but don’t have an offer, be prepared in the back of your mind if it doesn’t work out. Sometimes they get some amazing candidate or reached out to several internal people. But still, you have a great chance at the role!
You can also add that you want to go through the interview process, but are still expected for your opportunities under your manager, if the process doesn’t work out.
I don’t think it necessarily has to be a phone call, especially given he’s a hands off manager. If you were leaving the company and giving notice, I agree that would need to be a phone call. For an internal application (where you don’t even know you would be leaving yet), I don’t think it’s necessary. But you know your organization better than we do.
Thanks for the feedback! I wish I didn’t have to notify my manager at all, because I have no idea if I will even get the role.
I don’t think it requires a phone call. If he manages a bunch of software developers I highly doubt anyone is calling him on the reg unless the devs on the team are all near retirement. Even then, I don’t think I’ve ever talked to my manager or any of my coworkers on the actual phone and I’ve been around for a while. :) Impromptu teams meetings, sure, but that’s it. I know it’s more formal to call but I think that is going out of style especially in fields like sw development.
and I’d send a quick email that says something like, “Good morning, x reached out to me about a potential job opportunity with his company. Wanted to let you know per company policy that I’m going to be talking to them to learn more about the role. It’s a sr developer position, which fits in with my career goals. Let me know if you have any questions.”
This language is perfect.
And OP, I successfully applied for two internal moves at a previous workplace and both times, my boss was enthusiastic and encouraging.
Thanks for all the advice so far! I love the script for this email.
I would not provide the name of the person who reached out to you. Some bosses might view this as poaching and hold a grudge against that individual,
Ages ago (pre-COVID), I used to do barre classes 3-4x/week in a small private studio. Due to various reasons, I stopped. I keep trying to find an online option because I miss it a lot, but all the online options I’ve tried have been duds. I’ve narrowed down the main reason – the studio I used to go to, the instructors set the routines to real music which made it a lot of fun. All the online options I’ve tried have been to boring robot type of music. Any reccs for an online option with normal fun music?
Look into Barre with Adrienne on Instagram. She also has an app and a free livestream on Saturdays. She’s the best!
Have you tried the Peloton app barre classes? I love them and they have real music, but granted I’ve only done peloton barre so I can’t compare to live classes.
+1 Peoton app barre classes. Real fun music is definitely one of the reasons I love Peloton workouts so much. You can even look at the playlist ahead of time.
In the barre app from Down Dog you can select your music genre from the drop down and there are pretty good options.
I like Physique 57.
I know a woman who doesn’t work. For kid school and activity reasons, she is everywhere in my life and that is unlikely to change. She has remade herself as an artist and rents a studio and donates her art to every cause, buys ads and is in articles in the area home magazines. She is beating her drum loudly. Why does this bug me so much? I have plenty of creative hobbies, but no rich husband so that I can abandon working and just do art F/T (but I’d do it as I’ve done it — at home, in the house that is expensive enough, never mind leading a 1000+ sq foot studio so I can hang out with other artists). And even still, being creative and going around all “I’m an Artist” is not how most artists I know go about life (they often teach art b/c they have bills to pay and need insurance and then do what they can as a side hustle and are exhausted). I just need to put her on mute (but she is everywhere, I swear, like the pollen).
I get the annoyance. But I don’t know that it’s fair to say she doesn’t work. It sounds like she has a job, but it’s one that she is very lucky to be able to do in the way that she does. I don’t know if that helps you reframe it but I think it’s always helpful to just acknowledge that in many ways you envy her circumstances and that’s okay. Then move on.
Whenever I am faced with jealousy of just about any kind, I ask myself “would I want to wholesale trade place with that person” and the answer is always never b/c I would miss my family and my work and *my* life.
+1. I have multiple evangelical SAHM cousins who drive me nuts on social media. Sometimes when work is stressful, I really want what seems like the ease of their lives (and I doubt this feeling will dissipate once baby comes and I’m dealing with all the logistics of working motherhood they’ve never needed to face). But would I actually want to be married to their husbands and putting personalized “Jesus Loves [Name]” shirts on their babies? God no.
Extreme self-promotion bugs the heck out of me, too. I’m in the editorial “space” (as they say nowadays) and know a few of these types. In some cases, it’s coupled with people who never hut up about themselves in general, a type that I seem to attract. SIGH.
I think this is spot-on. Extreme self-promotion also bugs me. I have a lot of appreciation for people who do whatever it is they do very well, but quietly. I also understand that some degree of self-promotion is necessary in a variety of fields and don’t begrudge a reasonable degree of self-promotion.
FWIW, I have school-age kids and do creative work that has yet to make money (but allows me to be at school pick up, handle sick days, school breaks, etc).
I feel like ‘I don’t self-promote and I don’t make any money’ kind of proves why this lady is into the self-promotion.
Some people just bug us and get under our skin. And she sounds particularly annoying, lol.
I’m turning my creative hobby into kind of a side thing, but I have no illusions about it being enough of a moneymaker to quit my day job.
Honestly, I know what artist studio space goes for and unless she is actually selling a lot of art (vs donating it), the IRS wouldn’t even consider it to be a business. I think a real artist is in the black and if you’re in the red, it’s a hobby just like yours. Even good artists often have to teach or do other things, but someone who is loudly playing artist would get under my skin.
Oh please. Own your jealousy. Struggling artists who don’t sell enough art to be profitable at art have been a thing for centuries. Artists don’t have to teach to be artists. It sounds like you’re mad her husband has $$ and yours does not. Mean spirited jealously like this is not a good look on anyone.
Not the Anons above – this is a wrong and sexist take. “You’re jealous because she married rich” is so 1950s. Can we not?
+1 It’s also unproductive. I also think the op might have a problem with this woman’s self-promotion. I think as women we’re socialized to keep our heads down and let others sing the praises of our consistently excellent work. I could see another woman’s blatant self promotion as annoying to the OP if she feels it’s not something that that she could do without social backlash. Op might also examine whether the tendency to find self promotion distasteful in other women is rooted in a learned s&xism that’s not really consistent with the OPs values.
OP literally referenced her own lack of ‘rich husband’ in her post.
I think overt self-promotion is just as annoying and gross when men do it? I don’t view this as s3xist at all? We can think things that women do are annoying without it being “internalized misogyny.” That is just a lazy take.
Yeah, I don’t think someone has to cover their livelihood from doing art to call themselves an artist (similar to how art can be art without me appreciating its aesthetic value or deeper message). I am sure this person is as annoying as OP describes, but the fact that she calls herself something that is not the source of her income is not really the problem. If she had a day job, but she’d call herself an artist while making conversation (like other people calling themselves runners, gardeners, American Doll collectors), it would not be such an issue.
OP is a human being experiencing normal jealousy. That is why she came here – to a group of allegedly supportive women – to process her feelings. If you have never experience irrational and immature emotions, then good for you! But given your mean response, I am guessing you are no better than the rest of us.
this bothers you because you are envious. it’s normal, happens to everyone. definitely mute her if you can.
you say she’s making choices you wouldn’t make even if you had the option ( eg renting a studio). OK. no doubt there are choices you make that someone else wouldn’t even if they could.
you are envious of her and i am too! although my “hobby job” would be growing and selling specialty plants. maybe just naming and acknowledging that feeling will help you be less irritated?
I am not the OP, but I know a very similar person who quit her job because she wanted to paint, rented a studio, very much into hanging out with others in the art world. Jealousy is not why she irks me; I could easily quit my job and do what she does if I so chose. it’s more the pretension of the “I am an Artiste!” presentation.
But she is an artist? Being an artist is a thing someone can do, and it sounds like she’s doing it. Maybe artists are annoying; I don’t know.
Aren’t we all artists?
No. I’m certainly not an artist.
What is art?
I mean, my hobby is creative writing, and I love being around other people who love the thing I love. If I could afford to rent space somewhere that I’d run into them, I’d do it. It all seems very understandable that she does this.
There are several people who annoy me because I am jealous because I’m human. But calling it what it is helps me deal with it.
You’re annoyed because she’s persistent in pursuing her dream career?
She’s not living her life at you. Just mute and move on.
Amen.
I don’t know. She sounds like a cool person unless there’s something I’m missing here. I’d like to be friends with her.
Yeah, same tbh.
I mean, if it makes you feel better, most people probably think she is kind of ridiculous with all her self-promotion?
Why?? Because she’s trying to actually sell some art, which does require marketing like selling anything else would require? Is it that women are not socially sanctioned to do that?
While there is always an element of marketing that is “selling yourself,” we can all agree that the Venn diagrams of “self promotion” and “marketing” do not have a tremendous amount of overlap.
“we can all agree that the Venn diagrams of “self promotion” and “marketing” do not have a tremendous amount of overlap.”
I don’t agree – it really depends on the industry. I used to be a freelance writer and there’s a ton of self-promotion involved to be successful. It’s one of the reasons I no longer work in that field, because I hated it, but I don’t judge people who do it. Being an artist seems similar.
Nah, I doubt it. That’s what artists have to do. OP is annoyed because she’s jealous, which is totally fine, but this woman isn’t doing anything wrong.
that volume of perpetual self-promotion would bug me, too. What solves my irritation is liberal use of ‘mute’ on social. Seeing the occasional grid post about a new piece or event is fine, but not having ……………. Stories to get through.
This is good advice. There are people who I really don’t dislike in real life but I simply dislike the social media version of them and I am ok with that!
It bothers you because you are jealous. She sounds like she has children so dismissing her as “she doesn’t work” is a little offensive as childcare is work (I am a working mother but come on, being a SAHM might be harder). You would love to pursue your creative passions full time but cannot because of financial constraints, while she is free to do so. I’d be jealous of her too! You’re annoyed at what you perceive as self-promotion and how she’s not behaving the way an artist should. I respect her hustle.
Bring a SAHM of school-aged kids is not really the same thing. And school-aged could be high school, so very, very different than sleeping 2-3 hours at a clip. Or, in that case, the working mom who also has kids is a working mom with 2 jobs. It’s just not the same as working at home plus working a job.
Working in the home is very different than working outside the home. Anyone who tries to argue differently is really reaching. You have no boss at home and no possibility of getting fired. It’s work but it’s totally different. Also, if you ah e a partner who can support you and you don’t have to work, that’s great! But most people need to work to live.
I can tell you why! She’s a fraud. I don’t mean she’s not making art and selling it – she is. The fraud is in the pretense that she’s making a living off of it and that, if she didn’t have a breadwinner husband, she would be doing the same thing. It’s a ladies-who-lunch job the way she’s doing it but she’s not presenting it that way.
I’m the breadwinner in my home. I appreciate that my husband acknowledges that my salary changes our lives an enables him to do a job he loves (prof at a uni that primarily serves first gen kids). That’s a great job and he’s amazing at it, but there’s no way in hell we could pay the bills and retire on it alone. When some of his friends got in my case to quit working (I make 2x to 3x what he makes) because babies, some very tense conversations were had.
That was frustrating enough when the job in question is a real legitimate career. Trying to imagine someone swanning around pretending that a pin money side hustle is paying the bills, like she’s such an amazing and successful artist that she doesn’t need to teach art or live in poverty. Whoa boy.
As a society, we have our heads up our butts about what jobs pay the bills and what don’t (Uber, Etsy shops, hobbies). Your friend only makes it worse.
Continuing my rant, sorry: I think gratitude for one’s good fortune goes a long way. Many people who live charmed lives fully acknowledge how fortunate they are, and they can be delightful to be around. Whether it be adults who acknowledge their head start in life when their parents paid for college, or those who know that they were in the right place at the right time, it goes a long way.
But “my rich husband is completely ancillary to my artist life” is basically “married into third base and act like I hit a triple.”
I think this is it. Yes I’d love to do things like this all day, but I would also be annoyed if someone was acting like that was what paid the bills. It’s kinda like the whole nepo-baby situation – just acknowledge your privilege.
Is she literally announcing her income to you? You seemed way way over invested in this.
She’s not a fraud. She’s not obligated to say “hey, buy my art, but before you do please understand that my husband is really rich and I can’t support myself by doing this, I’m really just a SAHM.” This woman is not obligated to apologize for her life or for pursuing her dreams. Your entire “That was frustrating enough…” paragraph is meanspirited fantasy – the OP didn’t say that this woman suggests she supports her family as an artist. It honestly seems like you still have some unprocessed feelings of your own (maybe about your own situation?) to deal with.
No.
yeah, I also didn’t read as much into the OP’s post about this woman blowing her financial success out of proportion (although upon rereading it, you certainly could interpret it that way). If she explicitly pretends to make tons of money, that’s obnoxious (although you never know, some people just have so much cash to blow, maybe they will buy her art once she has been featured in a few home magazines).
I don’t think there is a general obligation for every SAHM to always point out that her husband enables her lifestyle. However families decide to divide stuff is their business.
anon at 10:47, it really sucks that you had to navigate so much sexism, but you are also using a bunch of sexist language (pin money job?) that is coming across in a way you may not intend.
“Pin money job” is sexist when applied to something that makes any sort of material contribution to the household finances. Even if she’s a social worker and he’s a BigLaw partner, her job is insurance against tragedy and therefore important.
It isn’t sexist when it’s describing a job that barely keeps the cat in kibble.
I understand how the term is used. It is sexist.
But how do you know this job barely keeps the cats in kibble? People buy art, even art I consider hideously ugly. There’s no evidence the woman isn’t selling anything.
anonshamanon, sorry, no. You can say it but it’s not true.
Cambridge Dictionary: “a small amount of extra money that a person earns to buy things that they want but do not need.”
…i don’t think anyone is disputing the dictionary definition, just saying that it’s use is sexist.
The historical root of the term is the allowance husbands gave their wives to buy clothing and personal expenses. It reflects so many outdated gender norms: men decide how the money is spent (this was the practice regardless of how much of the household income was contributed by the woman), women care about clothes, women can only be entrusted with an optional/frivolous expenditure.
You are justifying your choice of the term in modern times by proposing that some gigs are good enough in your view, if they make a material contribution to the household finances, and only the undeserving ones get called pin money. It sounds like you are trying to express that this is a very rational, objective distinction purely based on economics, but there are a lot of value judgements in there, about how women chose to spend their time and energy. And you are using a term with an extremely sexist origin.
I’m surprised you only know one of these. It seems like every mom at my kid’s school is a photographer or a yoga instructor or writer or artist. Nothing wrong with SAHMs doing side gigs to supplement the family income, but it definitely grates a bit when they act like they’re better than all the moms who work office jobs because their “career” doesn’t require their kids to go daycare or aftercare.
I got a good one once from someone smiling at me and saying “Well, I am in a Helping Profession,” as if I kick puppies for a living. Are we not all helping someone by working, whatever we do? The way people look down on work is grating. GRATING. I’m going to go outside and scream into the wind now.
Like a doctor’s office doesn’t need light bulbs or a social worker doesn’t need a laptop, so the people whose work produces light bulbs and laptops aren’t making the world better? Screaming right there with you.
Well, helping professions is a specific term that applies to certain occupations. I don’t really agree that all work helps people, but at any rate that’s the term. If this person was a yoga teacher whose spouse paid all their bills, I’d be quite irritated too. But if they were a nurse or teacher, they’re right.
The water department isn’t smug about what they do. It’s a dirty and hard job, often dangerous (digging up a street that people are driving too fast on in the rain), but without water, it’s hard to do anything else.
#HelpingProfessionMyA$s
Yeah, I’m not sure I like this framing of teachers and healthcare being ‘helping professions.’ Those are important professions but so are lots of others.
I worked at a trucking company. Let’s just say we got a lot more respect after COVID.
Praise hands for truckers. My dad worked in intermodal transport, so I am here for you.
The reason we call them “helping professions” is to make ourselves feel better about the lousy pay and working conditions. It’s okay that teachers don’t make enough to live on and aren’t allowed to use the bathroom during the workday, because they get the priceless satisfaction of being in a “helping profession.”
No straw man is insulting truckers or the water department.
I don’t like the idea that only some sorts of work give people halos. “I work to feed my child” is hard, doing it and feeling dumped on b/c of the work you do is not fun.
Not OP but this, omg. Going to a quiet, kid-free art studio to think your thoughts for 15 hours a week is not a career. It’s a hobby. And good for you! My jealousy turns to scorn when you act like your hobby pays for your designer wardrobe and housekeeper and vacation home. It doesn’t. Your partner’s job pays for all that. Don’t get it twisted.
Can we be friends?
Samsies.
you are my people
I get what you’re saying, but I’m not sure where you draw the line. I work full-time but I only earn $50k despite having a grad degree. I could literally support my kids on this salary, but it sure doesn’t pay for our four bedroom house or vacations to Europe. But I’d be pretty annoyed if someone said I didn’t work. I think most people have lifestyle inflation due to a partner’s salary, even if it’s a partner with a comparable or lesser income (two salaries in the same household go so much farther than one, especially when you’re talking about school age kids who don’t require $$$ in childcare costs).
Yeah, and I mean – we talk a lot when it comes to daycare costs about how the whole “it wasn’t worth it for me to work because my job barely covered daycare” calculus is anti-feminist; if we believe that families are an economic unit why would we be dismissing a woman’s job because it covers less of the family expenses (whether daycare, designer clothes, or something else) than her partner’s does?
I work fulltime in a “big” and highly paid job. I do not think that working fulltime in a big and highly paid job is morally superior or has more societal value than working fulltime in a low-prestige or low-paid job, working part-time, or caring for children fulltime or part-time.
I think “meaningful contribution to the lifestyle you’re bragging about” is a reasonable test. This even applies to people who inherit money.
Another one: if both you and your spouse worked the job you have, what would your standard of living look like? That’s for the lifestyle inflation/power of two incomes issue.
Isn’t the “it wasn’t worth it for me to work because my job barely covered daycare” calculus just math at a certain point?
On some level it’s basic arithmetic, yes, but usually when women say it’s not worth it for them to work they’re ignoring non-cash compensation like retirement contributions and benefits, not to mention the loss of future wages and the fact that the stage of life where you have to pay daycare bills is a relatively short one and care for school age children generally doesn’t cost anywhere near as much.
The problem is allocating 100% of the cost of daycare to the salary of 50% of the people in the marriage.
For the zillionth time, the cost of day care does come 100% out of the salary of the person who would otherwise be a SAHP. You can try to make it feel more equitable by pretending that each partner pays half of the day care bill, but the economic reality is that if one parent weren’t working there would be no day care bill, so day care comes out of that person’s salary.
That doesn’t change the fact that it’s usually not a good financial decision for that person to quit, even if their take home pay in the short term is less than the cost of daycare.
As any woman who out earns her husband can tell you, Anon at 12:59 pm, the daycare costs always get allocated to the woman’s salary. That’s the sexism.
Imagine a world in which both parents earn $50k a year and daycare for two kids costs $50k a year. Whose job isn’t worth working at?
My old neighbor both didn’t work and had a nanny. So there’s that crowd out there.
I’m the Anonymous at 11:24. I didn’t mean to offend you: I’m in the same boat. My job is boring and doesn’t pay well, but I don’t work solely for the paycheck. I’m sort of conflating OP’s description with actual women I know who have hobbies that they pretend are a job so they can humble brag and participate in “isn’t it hard to be a working mom” conversations. But you aren’t a working mom! I’m not saying your life isn’t difficult: the two years I spent at home were the hardest in my life. But going to an art studio while your kids are in care or school is not the same as having to reschedule a client meeting because your twins have strep and need to be picked up from day care immediately. It’s just not. The fake martyrdom is what I have beef with, not the profession, and not whether or not you work.
But not every job is high stress and involves juggling client demands. I’m the 11:29 poster and one of the tradeoffs for my relatively low paycheck is that my job has basically zero stress or deadlines, and I have unlimited sick leave so I’ve never had to juggle work demands and sick kids like a lot of working moms do. I’m just saying if you want to pull the “not really a working mom” card it gets blurry quickly. I think pretty much everyone would agree that a SAHM with a nanny and school age kids isn’t really working, but how much do you have to work? with how little help? how stressful does your job have to be? Unless you’re a Big Law partner working 100 hours a week with five kids (yes for real…. I know a Big law mom with five children), someone is pretty much always out-working moming you.
I will also point that you don’t always have a great sense of what others, and hours and income aren’t always very correlated. A friend works as a bl0gger ~10 hours per week and earns multiple orders of magnitude more than she did at her 50+ hour a week office job.
Heart this
This might be my favorite post of day…slow clap over here…
This strikes a cord with me as my MIL had this life style. My FIL built her a huge custom art studio built on their property. Granted she is an incredibly talented oil-painter, and I’m sure she had a lot of work on her plate with raising kids, running the household, etc at some point. She donated a lot of her time and effort to various charities in the area. I always got the sense she was barely making money versus what she spent to do her “job”.
She continues to be confused why I work a corporate job versus stay at home with my daughter and find a creative job for income because that what she was able to do. (I’m an engineer and so is my husband. We make basically the same income so it’s not even comparable to assume my job is less lucrative than his.)
I hope this doesn’t happen to your acquaintance, but I am now seeing the after math of that kind of life style. FIL has dementia, so he went from breadwinner and could get any thing done kind of person, to basically being the equivalent to taking care of a toddler.
MIL now has to take care of everything which is a huge shock to her system. Something really eye opening to me is how she doesn’t even qualify for social security because she never work/paid into SS long enough. Also because she had very little responsibility because it was cute to hide behind “I’m an artist, I’m not into details, etc.”, she’s completely lost on how to handle maintenance on their personal and investment properties, medical appointments & bills, how to deal with their retirement planning, etc. Ex. They have life annuities she has zero clue how they work. They have individual trusts but she doesn’t understand why they ever did that.
I want to be clear I’m not against artists. I know plenty of artists that are truly savvy and creative business owners. But if your acquaintance is anything like my MIL, I fully get why it’s frustrating. Knowing what I know now, I think I’d feel sad for her a bit too. Because statistically speaking women out live men, her husband might not always be around in the same capacity. And she might have a rude awakening coming on-top of the normal grief that comes along.
I’m seeing this in a slightly different capacity: my mother watches all of the wealthy women (ie married to high earning husbands) have hobby-jobs, so that’s what she does. She’s been divorced since sometime around the fall of the Berlin Wall and the alimony dried up decades ago. She has no money saved, no money left, and looks down on people who (and I quote) “work for someone else.”
She would literally double her salary as a receptionist. It’s terrible. Yet the myth of the hobby-job persists.
This is an important perspective, and I appreciate you sharing it. Always good to remember that there are real trade offs. It’s easy to get sucked into the fantasy and feel that’s the full picture.
Your poor MIL – managing end of life with a husband with dementia who used to manage (what sounds to me as very complicated) the finances and now can’t, on top of all of the challenging medical bills/appointments/care and the depression/anger that goes with all of this for both of them.
Your distain for her is jumping off the pages.
I hope your husband is helping her. It is horrible what she is going through. I did it for my parent until death, and its the worst thing I ever had to go through. My uncle is going through all that right now with his wife and it has crushed him. His wife has dementia and used to be the “artist on the side” SAHM that we are hating on in this thread. Interestingly, it was my Aunt who used to do all the finances, and now my Uncle is at a loss. He is on the edge of a breakdown and he actually has the money to afford to hire all the help in the home/outside the home to do everything for him.
Mercy to your poor MIL.
MIL couldn’t wrap her mind around why her engineer DIL, married to another engineer, would continue to work.
I’ve been on the receiving end of that crap and no, it’s not then “disdain” that “jumps off the page” when it turns out that being able to support yourself is a basic life skill.
Can we stop with the business if pretending that any criticism of someone with XX chromosomes is misogynistic? There’s plenty of hate here when a woman gets into MLM and is all #girlboss, yet somehow, when it’s aaaahhht, we are horrible jealous evil sexist people if we dare to point out that it’s no more a career than selling Arbonne.
What a disappointing response. But it doesn’t surprise me. I understand.
I am talking about the experience of being a caregiver for someone you love, and hoping you can empathize a little for what she is going through.
Your husband is at risk. Fortunately, you grew up with different values/role models and will be better prepared to do everything on your own. I still would hope that your kids will help and support you.
And I don’t think you are misogynistic. You are acting no different than most of my friends when I started caregiving. They just had no idea…
I agree with Anon at 12:37. You are clearly carrying a lot of anger towards her and judge her choices just as harshly as she judged yours. I’m sure she doesn’t appreciate being judged anymore than you do.
MIL was super judgmental about me going back to work with 3 kids. IDGAF. That’s a her issue. I can still have empathy that she grew up in an entirely different generation. And that not everyone is financially or life management savvy regardless of their gender. She was lost when FIL died even though she worked as a teacher her whole life. It will be the opposite for my parents. My Dad is so used to delegating to his assistant at work and my Mom at home that I’d be shocked if he knows how to run their finances if something happens to her. And he’s a law firm partner.
Maybe extend a little of the grace that you wish she would extend to you.
Anon at 1:04 pm, get therapy today. You insulted the Anon with the ailing FIL and now you’re insulting me. Being a “caregiver” does not give you the right to be a batch on wheels.
I’m the 11:28 AM poster. I can see where you read distain. I actually really love my MIL. I’ve known her since I was 18 so she feels like a second mother and she’s very kind and caring person.
But going to the original post, I could never put my finger on why her life time of what appeared to be a very charmed and carefree life bothered me until we got into this position we are in now. I think everyone needs to be prepared to manage the logistics of their life, if needed. This experience, has just made me more concerned for people I know who are SAHM’s or have really relaxed careers that might be just riding in the backseat with whatever their breadwinner spouse is coordinating.
My husband and I are actually doing a lot of things for her to help them out. She absolutely is in a tough situation I wouldn’t wish it on anyone. We’re also very aware that were very problem solving oriented because of our jobs and she is not. So we really be careful to not be overbearing as that causes her more stress. So the distain you read could also be some pent up rage about how I wish we could sort /fix some things with her that she’s not ready/willing to tackle. (Ex. I wish she’d switch investment brokers because her current one is a jerk and just puts her down anytime she asks questions)
Thanks for the concern.
Thanks for explaining. Yes, I totally get it. Your points are well taken. And I totally understand your frustration now with trying to help, and facing fear/resistance from her. It is really really hard. Thanks for doing your best.
This also strikes a chord with me. I have a very similar MIL who lived a very charmed life and my FIL did everything for her. Except in her case FIL had a brief illness and passed away. Because she was so used to being on the receiving end of caregiving rather than the giving end, she was incapable of helping with FIL’s treatments and illness. Basically, she foisted all responsibilities onto her 2 adult children to manage his end of life care… while refusing to allow paid caregivers to help even though she could afford them because she didn’t like strangers in her house. And now, 5 years later, she continues to rely on me and my husband for everything from assembling her tax information to managing investments to fixing appliances when they’re broken and so on. Fortunately, she’s become a bit more independent, but it has been a hard lesson for both her and us. I do thinking that having life skills is really important and a cautionary tale. It might seem great to have someone doing everything for you… until that person becomes disabled, dies or leaves you.
I understand why you are aggravated with your MIL. It is okay to vent here. My MIL had no education but was very snobby about material goods. She drove me crazy for many reasons including that she was always poor mouthing while buying expensive clothes and redecorating. I still managed to show her compassion and love when she fell ill. And I am sure that you are able to show compassion for your MIL while remembering how she treated you. It is okay. Ignore the haters.
I would be annoyed by that too, but for me it would be envy manifesting as annoyance *at* her. Every time I saw it I’d think, dang, “I wish that could be me. Don’t you realize how lucky you are? Must be easy to self-promote when you don’t have to worry about your mortgage. Also, please stop making me envious.” I’m a talented artist but didn’t choose art as a career because I’m just not wired to deal with that much uncertainty and am not wealthy. (Also heavily discouraged by my parents.) I miss it all the time. Rationally I would know she’s not being an artist *at me,* and I’d understand these unpleasant emotions that are dredged up are a *me issue* and I wouldn’t make it her issue. It grates on you and seems super noticeable because it brings up something within you. Gotta figure out what that is and try to come to terms with it, and also mute her.
What on earth is wrong with buying ads and being in articles in magazines? I do not understand the hate for this woman. Nothing in the original post suggests she’s being obnoxious.
Feels no different to me than what a realtor, small business owner, or anyone else who has to network in their community would do.
Those people annoy me too. Basically anyone who is trying to sell stuff to their friends and neighbors and anyone who will listen 24 x 7.
I get it. My BEC is a SAHM who is not an “artist” but seems to follow me everywhere just like yours does. I can mute her on social media but not in real life and it has gotten to the point where I actively avoid her whenever possible.
Re. the “artist” thing, I get that too. I have a bachelor’s degree in music performance, “retired” at college graduation two decades ago because I had to support myself like an adult person, and have in the past few years gotten back into it as a serious amateur. It rankles me enough when my friends who are actual musicians talk about all the cool stuff they do just because I envy their lives. When local music teachers who are not professional-level performers get paid for the same performances in which I participate (with more skill) for free, it seriously annoys me. If another amateur were constantly bragging about her musical activities it would make my head explode.
The combination of these two things has got to be infuriating.
My vote is that you are jealous and you should own it.
I know several artists (painters and musicians mainly) who stayed at home with their kids when the kids were little. Now that their kids are school aged, they are able to devote more of their time to their art by going on tour or showing in exhibitions, etc. They promote because you have to nowadays and their hard work is paying off because they are starting to make some money now. Good for them.
Replace staying at home with the kids with having a day job they hated until they had more money , and basically all of the artists I know behaved the same way.
I know very few artists that can fully support themselves from their art. That’s not new.
Yup, someone I know really well who does Art A most of the time and is trying to get into Art B (and who appears to be unusually successful in terms of making a living as an artist!) told me recently that he literally doesn’t cover the costs of his supplies in Art B with his sales of Art B – he has to subsidize with Art A money.
I know a few artists who’ve been able to make a living doing art or something art-adjacent, but that’s really hard and rare, and almost everyone is subsidized – by a partner, by family, or by their own day job.
I agree, sort of. I know only a few creatives who are self-supporting. My former BigLaw boss was married to a sculptor. I mean, she didn’t actually do anything but play tennis, but I think she was desperate for some identity and it was really cool to say you’re a sculptor. She did like to go on retreats to Santa Fe, and I bet I would also.
FWIW, I do a lot of fiber art which I do because I like to, sometimes upon request, and often donate items for auctions so I don’t clutter up my house (I don’t have a studio, maybe I should? At least a She Shed?). It would never dawn on me to put that all over social media (but I have a day job and I also don’t put that all over social media, either).
If you want to shift your thinking toward her* would it help to consider that she might actually be desperately trying to make fetch happen, and that’s what all the braggy promotion is? This thought brought to you by an “I’m an artist!” I know who initially bugged me with her constant social-media-ing and general unending self promotion (when she had a partner who seemed to have a more standard day job), but as I got to know her better, I learned that she was hustling really really hard to get customers and make sales to keep her business afloat (even if I found some of her social media pretty irritating). She ended up being unable to keep things going on the artist front and now waits tables and does her art when she has time. Anyway, it was (of course) really hard for her, emotionally, to step back from making art full time… and that makes me more sympathetic, in retrospect, to her aggressive self promotion.
*I am definitely not above enjoying seething at a frenemy, so like, no hate if you don’t want to!
Sounds a lot like one of those MLM moms who is constantly promoting her “business.” Annoying as anything, but they have to do it to get people to buy their stuff. The real question is whether her art is any good. If it’s decent, she deserves to promote herself to get the ball rolling on sales. If not, she needs to tone it down.
I work in an office. We are really trying to get people back to the office. No one is going to the office. So it’s funny to me that someone is leaving their house to go somewhere for work / “work” / whatever.
If you’re not beholden to a boss and can set your own hours and choose the location of your “office” it’s a LOT more tolerable. I have a fully remote job but regularly go to my gym or the local nature center to work because the change of scenery gets me out of a rut and helps me focus. But these places are <2 miles from my house, so no commute to speak of, and I'm not there a full 8 hours a day. You couldn't pay me to go back to my an actual office, with a boss breathing down my neck and the expectation that I be there 8-9 hours/day.
Maybe it’s annoying because you and a lot of other people (like me) would do it “better,” given the opportunity? She might be marketing herself in a ham-fisted and dorky way, like a naive vision of what an artist should be like vs the sophisticated artist who is more successful. Reminds me of my sister in law, she’s living the dream but the dream she’s living is what an 8 year old would imagine. There’s nothing wrong with it, really, it’s just not my jam.
You’re mad because she donates to charity and promotes herself? It’s like a catch 22 – you blame her for not being self-supported but then complain about the marketing things she is doing to improve her business by raising her profile. Is she just supposed to make art in her studio and hope people magically decide to knock on the door and buy stuff? Making it sound like you are successful and your artwork is in high demand is how you market yourself as an artist.
When I am faced with situations like this, I tell myself “There are certain people who were put on this earth for the sole purpose of driving me crazy, and this person is one of them.” And then I just expect them to drive me crazy and for some reason it doesn’t bother me quite as much.
Muting is good, also sometimes I count up the number of months/days/years I will realistically have to spend interacting with someone who annoys the cr*p out of me. My eldest will be going to college in 4 years, the other one in about 7 years. Even if my “I’m an Artist” person hangs around volunteering at the high school, her youngest is the same age as my eldest and realistically, the maximum is only 6 years! I lived through two terms of G.W. Bush, I can make it through 6 years of this idiot!
FWIW, my kids are in middle and high school now and some of the moms I thought of as “attack helicopter moms” (up in everyone’s business) absolutely cannot sustain that level of involvement. So it might sort itself out really soon!
My “I’m an artist” person goes to our church so I will never be rid of her even when our kids go to college.
Oh, that blows. I’ve been going to the same church for about 20 years, and I am not sad that some parishioners have moved on, though there are a few that will grind my gears until they get to Heaven. God love them, because I sure can’t.
ha I LOVE that presidential term comparison!!
The fact that you’ve riled up 80 comments from strangers to hate on this woman is just pathetic. Jealousy is a natural emotion, but this response is ridiculous. You’re the one looking bad, OP.
To be fair, a lot of the comments are defending the artist.
On the contrary, people are REALLY getting on their high horses in this thread. Haven’t ya’ll ever encountered a person that completely annoys you, even though you know it’s really a you-thing?
Except OP keeps trying to say that this woman is objectively annoying. She’s not.
Hey — I’m the OP and I’m back! Can confirm that she is annoying (to me, maybe not to you). E.g., I have muted her on FB but still go there b/c two kids’ schools and one kids’ activity largely use it. She runs the school ones, so today it’s not the upcoming things, it’s just “Area artist donates decorative plaque for scholarship auction” with 5 pictures of her doing the lord’s work. Other people donated in kind and wrote checks, but none of that is featured. Once, there was one of her kids praising how perfect her mom’s job was for her on a Story for the kids’ activity — not sure how that related to the kids’ activity at all, but it’s just hard to mute them all when I need to see some of them. Our younger kids are in the same grade, so I’m sure hoping they aren’t the same college where she runs the parent committee. Otherwise, 5 more years and I should be done.
I’m with SA: she’s just there to annoy me. It all makes sense now. Pls pass the whine.
“Once, there was one of her kids praising how perfect her mom’s job was for her on a Story for the kids’ activity”
Two conflicting emotions: dying laughing because that’s hilarious, and if I knew her IRL, I would be so beyond irritated.
1:45, I’m with you. She’s annoying. LOL.
How do you know, anon at 1:21? Maybe she sounds like Janis from Friends?
This isn’t about judgement. In my non-work life, I am very involved in politics (there is a chance that some of you have read my articles or seen me on TV), and have had very direct and numbers-heavy conversations with people about turning it into a career. There is an illusion out there of “do what you love and the money will follow.”
I hate that, and I particularly hate how many women get sucked into it. I’ve had conversations about who paid for their campaigns out of pocket, who declared bankruptcy after doing so, and who drew salaries from campaign contributions when they quit their jobs. I’ve talked to people about the math and chances of getting hired at a think tank or nonprofit.
For many people, it is a hobby that they are deeply passionate about. That doesn’t mean it’s a good, stable career path. We shouldn’t confuse hobbies and careers.
Found the artist!
There is a LOT of petty in this thread. How do y’all rustle up the energy to be so mad about other folks’ business?
First, you can give yourself permission to simply not like this woman. It sounds like she’s not for you, and that’s ok! You said she’s ‘everywhere’ but can you unfollow her on social media? Not have playdates with her family? Second – it sounds like you’re more than a little jealous of her ability to ‘just’ do art. And that’s ok! I’m jealous of people in my life for different reasons that have way more to do with me than with them. What has helped the most has been distance and interogating the jealousy. Do I want to do the cool thing they’re doing or am I just jealous they have more free time? Am I jealous that they have a thing they’re passionate about while I don’t? Am I jealous they’re getting more attention in my community? Once I identify the issue internally I’ve tried to turn my energy inward to figure out how to address that unment need. And sometimes I just don’t really like a person – that’s ok, but I am old enough to not like someone without needing to badmouth them or dedicate time and energy to being constantly annoyed with them. If it’s someone you run into regularly I’d also maybe play ‘I’m an artiste!’ bingo – one point for every time they mention a commission, or their fancy studio, etc.
Ugh, no idea why this posted in a new thread – sorry!
Is anyone familiar with Pre-Med Post- Baccalaureate Program? Is it worth going to a fancy one or just taking classes at my local state U for much less, living at home, and working PT (maybe at a blood bank or somewhere clerical at a hosptial or medical office)? It’s time for a pivot and I need to take a few more undergrad classes (I think, for most places). MCAT prep is going well. I’m not a current student (and prior, was a history major), but have a BA but no real place for advice.
I’ll let others speak to the post-bacc program, but if you do end up working part-time while doing it, you may want to consider getting a job as a scribe. At my hospital we are currently hiring a lot of them to do documentation for physicians and most of them are pre-med students. It’s a great way to learn how a hospital works (you’re essentially following a physician about their day all day), get comfortable with medical terminology, etc. There’s also a huge shortage of certified medical assistants, which I think is a fairly quick certification, which would be an easy part-time job to get and would get you patient contact hours.
+1 to work as a scribe
Considering this roughly (more BA to RN vs med school to limit debt and not be in school forever), but do you need patient contact hours to go to med school? What else is there to be aware of? Our city is getting a med school in 2-ish years but currently has BA->RN program.
Yes, you need some minimum amount (which I don’t know off the top of my head) and more than that to be competitive. You also need patient contact hours for PA school if that’s of consideration. It’s also just a good idea if you have no healthcare experience because actually working in medicine is a lot different than it looks on TV and you don’t want to already be in med school when you realize that working with patients is not for you.
RN and MD are totally different jobs with totally different income potential. Each has pluses and minuses but an RN is not a quick substitute for being an MD. Each profession tends to attract different personality types and uses very different skill sets
Nurse Practicioner is a GREAT alternative to being a doctor, that for many folks who want to move to health care later in life, is really the ideal way to go.
I am saying this a RN, but NPs now scare me. It used to be a program for experienced (10+ years minimum) RNs. The programs were very competitive and when you were finished you worked under the supervision of a MD. Now there are tons of online schools that accept non RNs. Clinical hours are minimal (400 compared to what a MD gets in medical school and 3+ years of residency). That is not enough for anyone, let alone someone who has not learned assessment, physiology, pharmacology, etc by actually practicing nursing. And must of what is taught in NP programs is fluff (nursing theory) and does not follow the same educational model for MD and PA education. Add to this all the states that now have independent practice and we end up with lots and lots of NPs who are not really qualified to be in the roles that are in. There are many good NPs out there and there is definitely a role for them in healthcare, but as is, the current NP model puts patients at risk.
Interesting points. I see NP as filling completely different roles compared with nurses. Yes, they are not trained at all to be a good nurse. But they are given a baseline breath of training and then often receive additional training on the job, which often happens in nursing too as nurses change specialties/work environments. And they, in many roles, have more oversight and less independence for critical things until they become very good at them.
For example, the NPs I have seen working with a lot of inpatient services (especially surgical teams) often become excellent in their subspecialized role, and are freeing up time for young trainees (interns/residents) to get sleep by passing off a lot of organizational/routine work. It has increased efficiency and satisfaction for team members. And those NPs make a lot of money (but work hard too!).
My son worked as an emergency room scribe for 2 years after college before applying to PA school. It was an extremely helpful real world experience, even though the pay was terrible. Agree with the other posters who have recommended looking into PA programs as an alternative career to medical school.
I’m a professor and I think these are mostly scams that take advantage of underprepared students (not literally, but the business model is definitely predatory). That said, medical school admissions are extremely competitive and you definitely need to know what you’re doing, so I see why they’re appealing. I’d look very carefully at your ability to navigate the requirements on your own and compare that to what the programs are offering and the stats on how many of their students get into med school.
Genuinely, how does one apply to medical school without having taken the required courses as part of one’s BA apart from a post-bacc program? Is there some other way to meet the requirements?
You just go to your local public university and take the classes you need as a non degree student. You don’t need to enroll in some fancy program that costs a ton more. But those fancy programs do probably help with things like extra research experience, getting better letters of recommendation, making sure you’re meeting all of the official and unofficial requirements, and, as other people have mentioned, sometimes they explicitly serve as feeders into med school if you do well. So the right program can be worth it for some people, but I’m skeptical, given how many of these I’ve seen pop up in the last few years. Many of them are aimed at first gen students who were science majors but didn’t know how to get in on their own. They shouldn’t have to pay for another year or two of school to get into med school and accumulate even more debt, which is why they feel especially exploitative. The ones for nonscience majors aren’t quite as bad, but are still clearly driven by desire for easy money. That they exist at all shows how badly our current system fails so many students.
I didn’t know this would be good enough for admissions! Thanks for the explanation.
It’s definitely enough to meet the requirements, but I don’t want to say for sure that there aren’t possibly some advantages to those extras at the expensive programs. I just teach science classes that premeds take and write letters of rec for med school, so I see some students that get in and lots that don’t get in, but I don’t really know for sure what makes a med school decide to admit someone. I suspect GPA and test scores are most important, but after that there are all of the extracurriculars, like research and volunteering, and letters of rec. It’s hard to write really good letters of rec for students I barely know, which is most of them, unless they did research with me, or took one of my very few small classes. Many of my students have to apply several times before they get admitted. There’s a reason why 20% of med students have a parent who’s a doctor. Students with knowledge of the system have a real advantage in navigating it. But there are also tons of resources online, and if you have good grades and test scores, get good letters, and are able to put in the time getting work or volunteer experience, there’s no reason you can’t do it on your own.
For the most part it’s more worthwhile to do it at Local U (and I agree with looking into a medical part time job). Make sure you really knock it out if the park grade wise.
Caveats- some of the “fancy” ones have feeder programs into med school if you maintain a certain GPA so that could be worth it. If going to an Ivy med school is hugely important to you, it could be worth it (med school education is fairly equivalent, I would NOT recommend an Ivy unless you have a very “prestigious” career path in mind).
This is wild. Is being a doctor not prestiguous? Or are there some sorts of doctors who practice in prestige areas (sort of like BigLaw but in medicine)? I grew up with immigrant parents who wanted everyone to be a doctor (me, my friends, random kids on the block), but to them, that is better than running a fruit stand or driving a cab. I still don’t understand other professions (and it may be too late).
I think they mean research, which is generally harder to get into than being a practicing physician.
Yes, there are definitely channels of prestige within medicine. This seems like an odd question? The main levers of prestige in medicine are: academic vs. private practice; specialist vs. generalist; research + clinicals vs. clinician only; and to a moderate extent NYC / BOS / SF (highly competitive medical markets with a lot of interested applicants for attending opportunities) vs. other urban areas vs. rural areas.
I’m not in medicine, but this is my understanding, with the addition of some hierarchy among the specialties (e.g. cardiologist or dermatologist vs. rheumatologist or psychiatrist).
I mean like if you want to be a plastic surgeon to Hollywood or something. Prestigious was totally in quotes because I don’t believe it at all, but if someone wants a private practice with a really wealthy patient base the name recognition can help.
Otherwise- I went to a state school and have former classmates who are doing incredible things (ones regularly on national news doing health updates).
On the feeder program, plenty of non-Ivy or top tier programs have this option too. A friend did his at Temple (which if you’re a PA resident is pretty affordable, it’s quasi-public). If he maintained a certain GPA he was guaranteed admission to med school there (which he did)
Have you also looked into PA programs? They’re generally a faster route to patient care for older students.
As an MD who sat on the medical school admissions committee, don’t do clerical work. You need something with actual contact with patients NOT just checking them in for appointments or helping with paperwork. Scribe, CNA, phlebotomist, etc. You need to be delivering care and/or witnessing the less glamorous parts of healthcare on the regular.
Ask each school you are considering for data on what percentage of students in the program 1) applied to and 2) were accepted into a US medical school directly from completion of the program. Ask for numbers for the past 5 years, to get a bigger picture. If a school doesn’t provide the information, be suspicious. Trust me, this is data that they have.
If you think you want to go into academia or a very competitive speciality and want to go to a very competitive medical school/city, and you are rich…. (since pre-med classes + med school + low payment internship/residency = fortune needed), then go to a fancy one. Still not probably worth it though.
But if you went to a good college, did well, and can do very well on the MCAT and can sell yourself as to why you want to be a doctor now (lots of experiences being exposed to medicine already), then definitely do the living at home/local classes.
I’m a doctor and I would NEVER choose medicine as a second career and take out $300k in loans to go to a private med school. If I felt I had to become a doctor and it was a true calling, I would do a loan reimbursement type program and work in an area of great need, like on an Indian reservation. But these days, because of all the pressure and dysfunction and inequity in health care and the incredible demand/stress for normal doctors trying to give good care, I wouldn’t bother with becoming a doctor. It’s still going to get worse before it gets better.
Consider become a PA or NP. Incredible flexibility, job opportunities, great income, very mobile, always jobs in any city, much shorter/cheaper training path.
OP here — I know an RN who did a nurse anethetist program and would be open to that once I’m down the road a bit more. My doctor friends say go NP or PA vs MD for all those reasons.
I think the National Institutes of Health have a post-bac program. Exploring that option might be worthwhile.
Really late to the discussion but most post bac (IRTA) positions on NIH campuses are FT research with mentoring. They’re more of a gap year(s) program than condensed premed coursework. NIH funded post bacs at universities are also research based with the goal of preparing students for PhD programs.
I need makeup help for an upcoming vacation. I don’t wear makeup — I rarely did pre-pandemic and nothing in the past 3 years. So I threw everything away. But I am going to Vegas in a few weeks and would like to be able to look nice for nights out. I’d love to get a toddler’s make-up kit with small sizes of everything at a reasonable price. Does that exist for women in their late 50’s? Any suggestions about where to go to figure out what I need and get things at a reasonable price? I have no problem with drug store brands, but would still need help figuring out the right products, colors, and get application advice too.
I go to YouTube for makeup advice. Emily Noel has lots of product recommendations and application tips. I also like Taylor Margaret. If you search for something like “beginner makeup” you should find lots of tutorials.
Benefit seem to produce mini sizes of almost all their products – but I’m not sure where stocks them in the US.
My best guess would be an Ulta for that.
Sephora minis.
I would call your local MAC counter (at department store, Ulta, etc) to make an appointment for a makeup consultation. Tell them you want a new look for a trip to Vegas. You can buy some products they use on you at the MAC counter (e.g. foundation, blush, eyeshadow) and see if you can find dupes of other things at the drugstore (e.g. mascara, lotion). I have a makeup set that I tend to only use on vacation – hot pink lipstick, sparkly eyeshadow, etc.
With the amount you will spend on basics and the time spent figuring out how to do it, I would just get it done by someone there!
Look for blogs or youtube with a “minimalist” makeup regimen.
For example:
– concealer: Maybelline instant age rewind (I got it after reading many recommendations here)
– foundation: Lancome Teint Idole longwear foundation
– eye pencil or eye liner: Urban Decay pencils are gold standard (Sephora) or NYX (drugstore but good)
– mascara: pretty much anything goes, I like the tubing ones recommended here before
– lipstick: again go with MAC or any other color that suits you with moisturizer if you need it
If you want a “toddler’s makeup kit” try something like Bare Minerals getting started set or other sets that that, they come with a little bit of everything.
Ilia does a little set with good products.
I would focus on just purchasing two or three things in the mini/travel size that will make you feel more done up. In your case, I’d suggest maybe a mascara, lipstick, and eyeshadow stick (Laura Mercier is good) since you’re used to not wearing make-up and likely don’t really need to mess with your complexion much. You can tap the lipstick on your fingers and apply to your cheeks as blush so you’ll have a little more color on your lips, eyes, and cheeks which should make a big difference. Go to Sephora or Ulta and ask someone which products they recommend.
Bobbi Brown has minis too.
No. 7 makes a great foundation that is a good dupe for the more expensive Estee Lauder. I would get Cover Girl eyeshadow, an eyelash curler, and Maybelline or Loreal mascara. Google your eye and hair color for what color eye shadow will look prettiest on you. I would get a brush on blush by any of the drug store brands. For lipstick, try the chubby stick by Clinique.
We’re visiting family in Amsterdam next month, and would love recs for day trips from Amsterdam? Preferably by train. We like museums (especially if they have things in miniature), gardens, history, walkable neighborhoods, playgrounds for the kids, easy casual dining. I was thinking The Hague, but my Husband is lukewarm about the idea – I think he only associates that city with war crimes. Kids are 4 and 11.
Also would love to hear Amsterdam specific suggestions too, particularly any tours that were interesting and fun.
Your kids are not too young to take them to the Ann Frank house tour. The museum at the end will be too document-heavy for them, but the actual tour of the house (up the stairs, through the secret bookcase door) will be good.
I would not take a 4 year old to the Anne Frank house. We are Jewish and my 4 year old doesn’t even know about the Holocaust. It’s way too mature subject matter for a child that age. Our Sunday school teaches it in fifth grade. The 11 year old, sure.
There’s no minimum age for learning about the Holocaust, or any other difficult thing for that matter.
I disagree, and the vast majority of people I know have not taught their preschoolers about the Holocaust either. It’s certainly an important subject that children need to learn about at some point, but there’s no reason it has to be done at such a young age. Particularly when they’re Jewish and have family members who were murdered.
Also disagree. Honestly, young children just don’t have the breadth of experience to understand it. To understand something about the Holocaust my 4yo would need to understand that there are religions besides our own, that there are different countries (international travel would be mind blowing for her), what death is (her grandmother is dead but she doesn’t really understand it yet) and possibly what war is. Of course, I want her to understand all these things eventually but a visit to the Anne Frank house now would be confusing, not informative.
Aside from the question of whether or not it’s appropriate, it’s also going to be very hard for a child that age to get anything meaningful out of a lesson about this kind of subject, particularly one that doesn’t go into much detail. My kid’s preschool taught them about segregation a little bit (which I have no problem with, to be clear) and my kid’s takeway was “it’s good we’re white because we got the good drinking fountains.” She’s not a sociopath, she was just 3. This stuff goes way above their heads at that age. It’s only around ages 5-6 that kids typically have the reasoning and social-emotional skills needed to understand and process this kind of thing.
I think a four-year-old could conceivably learn about the Holocaust in an age appropriate way, but I’d still hesitate to take one to the Anne Frank house for fear they’d be too bored to maintain the necessary respectful attitude. Even people who are usually happy to let kids be kids wouldn’t appreciate a tantrum in such a solemn place.
Another good point.
If you do go to the Anne Frank house, make sure to have pancakes at the amazing pancake place next door. (But I agree four is too young.)
Also, make sure you go to the windmills at Kinderdijk. It’s about an hour and a half from Amsterdam.
Oh, and we had a private guide to give us a high-level, highlights-only tour of the Rijksmuseum and we loved it. Highly recommend. We found her on Viator or you could use Tours By Locals dot com.
Anne Frank and then pancakes?? Omg.
Oh Utrecht might be more the husband’s speed! I’ll offer that as another suggestion.
Yeah – I’m definitely on the fence about the Anne Frank House. If it were just me and the 11 year old, I wouldn’t miss it, but the 4 year old makes it tricky. (and she’s just barely 4). It’s not that I don’t think the importance of the Anne Frank House would scale for the 4 year old, rather I want to take her when she will understand the full impact of the room behind the bookcase and be respectful, rather than her thinking it’s just another museum with cool rooms, which is what it would be for her right now. I’m thinking since we are going to visit family, we’ll be back and can visit another time.
You spelled her name wrong and you literally called yourself her name, with incorrect spelling. Is that your actual name? If not that is wildly appropriative.
Also the tour should not be described as ‘good’ given what happened at that house.
Loved the Louwerre museum (spelling? it’s cars) in the Hague, which i did as a train + bus from Amsterdam in a day. Also did the Mauritshuis while I was there.
When I went to Amsterdam with a friend, we did a day trip to Utrecht (we would have taken a train or a bus, I don’t remember). We rented a kayak and paddled around the canals in Utrecht. It was lovely!
If they are just turned 4, then it might be too young. If they are 4 almost 5, I would do the tour and have one parent take littler kid outside so older kid can check out museum a bit. I went at age 12 and it is an important memory for me. I went on to focus my poli sci degree at university in genocide studies.
FWIW, DH is Austrian and we started teaching Holocaust at around age 5 which is when Canadian kids also start learning about residential schools. You have to scale it to the age – the idea of people being taken away and hurt/killed because of their religion or race vs specifics about gas chambers/torture. We watched a few videos from Holocaust survivors who were speaking out against Trump which was helpful to connect with the idea that we were teaching them about something that was scary because scary and bad things have happened and it is our obligation to prevent it from happening again.
On a lighter note – Amsterdam is a lovely city and you’ll have a great time!
Utrecht is absolutely lovely and well worth a day trip! Same goes for Haarlem and the Hague, but I remember the focus there being more on incredible art collections/history. Utrecht you can just enjoy the canals and the city. It has a special charm and would be perfect for a family day trip.
On a related topic, I was hoping to see the special Vermeer exhibit at the Rijksmuseum before it closed in early June but the tickets sold out almost as soon as the booking opened. I am still toying with the idea of going to an associated exhibit in Delft because I would like to visit that city, but am not sure it is worth another transatlantic ticket. I will be going to the Netherlands in the Fall. (And if anybody has a ticket to the Rijksmuseum they want to sell…..!)
Nemo in Amsterdam is an interactive science museum and fun for kids. Madurodam has miniatures of all interesting buildings etc in the Netherlands and is close to the Hague. Naturalis in Leiden is kid friendly if you are interested in natural history and biodiversity. Tropenmuseum (museum of the tropics) shows the part the Dutch played in colonialism
+1 to Nemo. Plan to end your visit close to sunset. The museum’s rooftop views are spectacular and there are some cool interactive sculptures.
On a related topic, I was hoping to see the special Vermeer exhibit at the Rijksmuseum before it closed in early June but the tickets sold out almost as soon as the booking opened. I am still toying with the idea of going to an associated exhibit in Delft because I would like to visit that city, but am not sure it is worth another transatlantic ticket. I will be going to the Netherlands in the Fall. (And if anybody has a ticket to the special Vermeer exhibition at the Rijksmuseum they want to sell…..!)
Haarlem and the Ten Boom House
Delft
I’m late to this party but you should definitely go to Zaanse Schans – an easy train ride from Amsterdam and kind of like a colonial Williamsburg vibe – they have relocated historic working windmills from all over the Netherlands to this little town, and they have active workshops with all the traditional folk products – wooden clogs, cheese, chocolate, etc. We had a blast!
This is what I’d do with kids as well.
Keukenhof for sure. Rent bikes and ride through the fields of tulips, hyacinths etc.
If you visit The Hague, go to the Mauritshuis. Some lovely Vermeers incl Girl with a pearl earring.
I studied abroad at the Hague and loved it; it has a beach with restaurants if you wanted to do something like that (accessible by the light rail). Its also just a cute area, not purely war crimes associated.
Can someone please tell me about & Other Stories? I saw someone wearing something this morning that I loved and google leads me to believe that it is from this store, but I’ve never heard of it. Is it fast fashion-y? How is the quality?
it’s owned by H&M.
I like our items from there, but they also seem to cut for very tall people (I have a tall kid) so items may not work for me like midi dresses b/c I’m 5-4.
Huh, as someone who’s 5’11” this explains why I like their stuff!
I have heard that it doesn’t generally fit well for shorter women, if that includes you.
It’s like a Zara/H&M.
I have bought a couple sweaters there that I absolutely adore. The pieces I have are j crew quality at j crew prices.
I do have quite a few items from them, mostly tops and shoes. I’m 5’4”with a short torso and find that in general the blouses and sweaters fit me well. They are owned by H&M but I have found the quality pretty solid — it’s one of the few places I could reliably find 100% silk blouses, the shoes lasted well, and I just bought a very substantial cotton striped sweater from them. I’ve done online ordering as well as in store shopping and as far as I recall, I had a pretty low return rate once I had my size dialed in. Have no clue about trousers, but it wouldn’t surprise me if they were cut for taller people.
They have some premium fabrics like silk and wool, and I’ve been happy with everything from there.
Owned by H&M, like Cos and Arket.
It’s . . . fine.
It’s a better quality H&M. I am 5 foot 4 and buy blouses and sweaters there and I’ve been very happy with the quality. Fashion-forward and not too expensive (also, great sales!).
If you’re ever in NYC, they have a brick and mortar in SoHo.
Anon with “not anything serious guy”–yesterday went a bit different from expected (not in a good way LOL) so wanted to update the hive. The event we were going to go to was cancelled so we pivoted to going to a bar to watch his alma mater play in a March Madness game. We hadn’t seen each other in a week and a half and had been speaking every day in the interim, so I was excited to spend time with him even if I knew I was going to break things off after.
We’re at the bar for maybe 90 minutes before he goes “So do you want another drink or can I close out and we head back to yours? I have to head home in a few hours.” I was super taken aback–our previous dates had not had this vibe at all despite the casual label and I had expected at least a few hours of hanging out prior to gardening + a sleepover like usual. The game we went there to watch wasn’t even over! He walked me to my apartment and outside my apartment I thanked him for walking me home but that it felt like he was rushing this along to get to the gardening so he could dip, and it felt disrespectful.
He was profusely apologetic (of course), saying that that wasn’t what he meant at all, it was a miscommunication, etc. etc. But eventually admitted that he hadn’t finish all his work and had been planning to leave early to go home and finish that, so he had been trying to move things along. I’m sympathetic to that, but it just cemented to me where I’m at in his priority list and if he had deeper feelings for me, he would’ve made an effort to ensure we could spend the entire night together.
We had a roundabout conversation for a while, but I ended up getting around to what I had been planning on saying over the weekend–that ultimately none of this matters because I’ve realized we want different things so it’s a bad idea to keep seeing each other. He tried to convince me to keep seeing him, claiming he had seen women casually in the past where they both had feelings for each other and it still worked out okay with the power of ~good communication~. I said thanks but no thanks, you can give me a call if you’re ever ready to date for real but until then, have a nice life.
I’m so bummed that the night didn’t go the way I planned since I had been looking forward to it for a while, but I ultimately know it all shook out how it was meant to. I would’ve been completely crushed if we had gardening and then he left right after. It sucks right now but I know I’ll feel better this time next week, and better to feel bad now than worse later. Thanks again for everyone’s support and advice, it really gave me what I needed!
Ooh, that’s rather disappointing behavior from him! Good for you for sticking with your plan. Hope you have some fun you-time planned for the weekend.
Congrats on doing the best thing for you even though it was hard in the moment!
And if he texts you in a week or a month (which he likely will do), please ignore.
“claiming he had seen women casually in the past where they both had feelings for each other and it still worked out okay with the power of ~good communication~.”
LOLLLLL. I mean, maybe. But more likely…….this is a fantasy version of events.
Good for you.
LOL right! In my head I was like “I’d love to speak to some of these alleged women and get their side of the story because I really doubt they’d agree”.
And thank you!
I bet he means that “it still worked out” only in the sense that the women continued sleeping with him. It doesn’t mean anything about the situation was actually “working,” other than that.
Barf.
For real! This guy sounds like a douche.
No kidding! This guy is clueless if he thinks that’s how it went down. OP, good for you for doing what’s best for you.
I’m proud of you, if that isn’t weird.
Not weird at all! Thank you :)
Oof! Well, at least you can be 100% sure you made the right decision. Hugs, Anon6!
Well, you know now he was telling you the truth about relationship readiness! S-cks but hugs for doing the right thing.
Nice job! You called it like you saw it and didn’t cave on what you want.
I’m sad for you that it didn’t work out, but also really happy for you that you got a very clear sign that you were making the right choice. No looking back on that one and wondering if maybe it would have worked out if you had just let it go on a little longer!
you handled it so well! and maybe the silver lining is ending it with the last date on a slightly sour note will make it much easier to move on, vs. ‘one last great night’ together and then your brain keeps telling you reasons to give it another try!
I would look on the crummy evening as a gift from the universe because it made it much easier for you to end things.
I’ve reached that burn out point where I can’t remember how to relax. What is everyone’s favourite way to relax? I want to try to relax at least a little bit this weekend.
I am suffering from severe burnout and recently took a day off where I bribed my dog with cookies to watch mindless TV with me for half the day and then spent some time randomly wandering the aisles of Target in the middle of a weekday. It was quite restorative.
When I’m stuck in a super go-go-go phase, I often find I have to book something, like put it on a schedule, to relax. For me, it’s a massage or a facial, or planning an outing with a friend. I find it really helps to have something on the calendar I can’t shrug off.
Options! Will depend on what recharges you.
1. Is there a show/movie you’re really excited to see? Gather comfy clothes, cozy beverage, favorite snack, enjoy without any distractions or obligations.
2. Spend time outside – outdoor restaurant, dog park, walk, park w/ a book, whatever.
3. Cuddle with a person or pet. Movie optional.
4. Indulge in a hobby for a chunk or time without guilt.
5. Hang with a friend on your sofa/at a coffee shop for a few hours.
6. Get a pedicure and bring a podcast/book/whatever.
7. Do that ‘thing’ that you’ve always said you’d love to do if you have time
8. Sleep in. Don’t set an alarm.
9. Cook something you love.
10. Lay around
My favorite way is to take my dog somewhere new. She gets real bored during walks around the neighborhood but lights up with a delightful curiosity when we go somewhere outside of the normal bubble. It’s very difficult for me to feel present, but you know who always seem to feel present? Dogs. It’s hard not to feel present when I’m focused on her having fun and experiencing a new place with her.
Ha, that is so true! Dogs are very good at Being Here, Now.
My dog gets so excited for the exact same walks every day that you would think she’d never seen our neighborhood before.
Going out in nature without my phone (or at least without using it!). I don’t need to get intense physical activity but even just strolling in green spaces casually seems to help.
For me it’s a walk to our local bookstore/cafe and curling up with a book for a few hours
Romance novels and solo gardening.
Deep yin yoga or stretching (find an hour-long video online) while watching a movie you love! For me, it’s Real Housewives. Maybe a face or hair mask. Feels better than a massage.
Going to an art museum by myself is my favorite thing to do.
Mine too!
My husband and I are having serious conversations about me quitting my job. Is there ever a point where it makes sense? By way of background, we’re 39 and 40 with two kids. He out earns me almost three times before his bonus, after which it’s closer to four. We have enough in non retirement savings to pay off our home, but we have a really low mortgage rate so we’re reluctant to do that. No other debt and about a million in retirement funds and kid have a solid savings for college. I have a substantial term life insurance policy on him.
I have been really really unhappy at work since my industry went remote after covid. My options for similar work are limited. Meanwhile, my husband’s career is thriving but he is running around like a crazy person balancing a high pressure job with half the childcare because my job is requiring 40 hours a week. My toddler is not taking as well to 8+ hours a day of daycare as my older child. (Behavioral issues, ect.) I don’t have guilt that my kids are in childcare but I do have guilt that they have a miserable mom. We’ve talked about keeping the kids in childcare but for shorter periods so that I could also take them to other activities, like sports and art during the week. Neither of us loves the idea of a nanny carting the kids around while we’re at work (personal preference.)
I know the answer is to just lean out and do the minimum and collect a paycheck but it’s been years now and i feel so unnecessarily unhappy. I think the whole point of this job is that it’s there to keep me from being destitute in case my husband leaves me but I’m not sure that juice is worth the squeeze. Five years ago, when my older child was younger I was so happy at my job I could never have imagined quitting. (Although I never imagined it would become a desk job from my house.) Now I feel like each day is bad. I should also mention that I’m taking online classes in another industry and am considering starting a small business should I quit my job. What would you do?
I would get myself to a lawyer and get a postnup to keep from being destitute in case my husband leaves me. Then I would do what’s best for myself and my family.
+1
That is rough. Do you have a pre- or post-nup? I’d want to make sure you were covered if, god forbid, you guys broke up. it is SO hard to come back to the workplace after a longer pause as an older woman. If not, could you get a post-nup as part of the decision for you to stay home and do most of the child/house care? Nothing egregious, but making sure you’d be entitled to $x for y years, that he’d pay for housing or your mortgge for x months after a divorce, etc.
It sounds like it could be a great choice for both of you if you can get some protections in place. If nothing else, maybe in6 or 12 months you’ll be fresher and have a good idea of what you want in your next job or business.
i’d quit if i were you. you have this internet stranger’s permission.
Why would you stay at your job? I say quit!
This sounds like a super similar hypo to last week, where mom was in Biglaw and husband still outearned her 3x. Advice was to go to a smaller firm, go part time, find an agency like Axiom that lets you keep your skills fresh with less stress, etc.
And if quitting altogether, getting a postnup, stat.
Quit! No question. You’ve got one life, don’t spend it being miserable (from a SAHM who doesn’t regret it for a second). Sounds like you have many promising options to chart a new course.
I agree with post-nup if you decide to quit completely, but I’d definitely try to lean way TF out and see if that changes anything. For a variety of reasons my job options are severely limited and I don’t want to be without income, but I’ve been working 10-3 (if that) at my job for several years now. While I still dislike my job intensely having the extra hours for myself and to spend with my kids has done wonders for my mental health. I would also love to have a side gig although my job has all kinds of restrictions about side income so I can’t do that for now. I think it’s at least worth a shot. Worse case you get let go and then you’re in the same situation you’d be in if you quit right off the bat.
You should get a postnup, quit or lean heavily back (as in, work 3 days/week until someone notices), start your business with the kids in part time preschool/childcare.
Life is too short to be miserable when you don’t have to. If it’s best for your family you will all be happier. I went part time and DH has declined a promotion and we are the happiest we’ve ever been.
When my youngest was 1, my husband took early retirement and became a stay at home dad. (Hated his job but had loved other roles at the company, was likely going to be forced out due to mgmt changes…). He planned on doing some consulting when the little one started school, but just as that opportunity arose Covid came and blew up the kids’ school life. It’s now been 8 years. He is 100% home. When kids were younger they went to full day preschool 3 days a week, which I was a fan of.
In that time, I changed jobs and took a promotion I could have not have otherwise taken. The kids have a parent to schlep them around and help with homework as they’ve aged. Having my spouse at home helps take the pressure off me from a parenting perspective. Could we have made it work with us both working? Of course, but I have more opportunities with him covering for my flexibility around travel and big projects. (YMMV, but we have no local family to assist on anything.)
I definitely have different pressure as the sole breadwinner, and your husband may not like that. It took some getting used to. It’s not a typical set up, having the dad at home. But it totally works for us.
No one told him not to stay home because he’d lose his earning potential. Do what works for you and your family.
Probably a long shot, but are the behavioral issues “enough” that your child is receiving some kind of therapy and could you get FMLA from your pediatrician then?
If you use it all at once that’s only 12 weeks, it will expire in a blink. More likely it would be used intermittently to allow you to take kiddo to an appointment and while that might be necessary, it’s not going to give OP the mental break she’s hoping for.
I dipped out around this age for about a year. About three years ago I went back part time and that has been a good in-between for me and my family. My kids are older so I am closer to being art studio mom than chasing a toddler, but from 4-8 I am constantly driving my three kids somewhere and I was burnt out working from 8-4 and then getting in the van and driving all over the place. This way I can flex my work days to go grocery shopping by myself and take my car in on a week day (without having to work from the waiting room). Will I be part time forever? I am not sure but it works for now.
Clearly you have put a lot of thought into this already. I would explore changing jobs and getting a stable part time gig. I don’t know if you can get part time daycare, but this way you get to stay in the working world, and your kid gets the continued benefits of day care, while you can also pump the breaks a bit on all fronts.
I asked to go part time at my existing job. No one else is part time but they knew I would look hard at leaving if they didn’t. I position it as a trial period for a year and then re-evaluate. Have a plan for the work being covered. In my case it’s a junior lawyer they have hired to works 70% for me. They pay him out of the savings on my salary and benefit from extra capacity. I work 10-2, M-F.
I feel like the answer today has to be rent yourself an art studio and call yourself an artist.
Hahahah
Laughed out loud.
LOLlololol
Well it’s not like your only options are quit and never work again or stay at your job and be miserable. I would look for something in between. And consider, what if something happens to your husband and he’s no longer able to provide that income, or even less drastically, what if he finds himself in the same situation and would have to be miserable to keep providing.
+1. By all means quit if you don’t want to work, but there are other options. Are there truly no in-person jobs in your industry anymore? Could you pivot slightly and find something that is hybrid? Look for something that is part time, even if all remote?
I would take FMLA for any reason – get a vague doctors note if you don’t want to say your mental health or your kid.
Or take a leave of absence from your job if you’re allowed and can’t get FMLA.
Try the 3 months – see what you think. It may turn out you hate the house work and all day mom part. You get three more months insurance and job tenure on your resume. You return to same job if you don’t want to stop, and or keep barely working while you search WHILE employed.
Utilize leaves of absence. Also postn up.
In your situation, where money truly doesn’t not seem like an issue, quit. Live your best life. There have been so many times when I’ve put up with working because we need both incomes. But if I could realistically scale back, yes, I’d do it.
Money, career, post-nup issues aside … do you WANT to be a full-time mom? Will that be “enough”, while you also watch your husband thrive in his career? In all sincerity, there is no snark behind that question … I know many families where they truly see themselves as a team, and one person’s professional success is the family’s “success” because they are all truly bought in to how the family functions as a whole. But that is not my family, and I could not be happy in that situation.
I’m having a crappy day and just need to vent. I’ve been trying to conceive for a few months and it’s way harder than I thought. All of my close friends either have gotten pregnant immediately or are not at the point where they’re thinking about children. I feel so alone. On top of that feel like my boss is all the higher profile works to my coworker. Idk I feel like I’m failing at everything.
I’m so sorry. The TTC wait is the worst. It’s mind boggling to me that we make such a big decision and then nothing happens… for months. Lots of hugs from this internet stranger.
Hi! I feel you. My husband and I are currently doing IVF and feel very lonely – the vast majority of my family has had no issues with fertility whatsoever and none of my close friends have kids yet. But you are not at all alone and I promise you that you are not failing. Hugs and commiseration from me.
TTC IS HARD. It will wreck with you emotionally and physically. It took me a while to conceive and it felt like I could never step out of my own head whenever we were trying to get pregnant….and so many of my friends were having kids at the same time that it made it hard not to be jealous. I hope it helps to know you are not alone. You might mention it to some real life friends – I know for me it helped a lot that I eventually found out that two good friends in my office were also TTC, and we were able to support (and luckily eventually celebrate) each other through it. I wish you the best.
I am going through the same thing with trying to conceive! Everyone I know seems to be pregnant and many weren’t even trying! Wishing you (and me) the best…one thing I’ve found helpful is reminding myself that my husband and I will ultimately become parents, whether biologically or through adoption.