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Interested Reader
I enjoyed reading the stories on the blog yesterday about growing up with wealth. Such a different way than I grew up but very interesting to see how others live their lives. I would love to read stories from women here who have generated wealth for themselves and by themselves. Money is not the ultimate definition of success. But I love to hear about women who are making a mark on the world in ways society says we are not supposed to.
anon
What do you mean by “making a mark on the world in ways society says we are not supposed to.” My entire life all I’ve heard was go girl go! Girl power! Girls run the world! (I’m 31). I’d actually really love to be a stay at home mom but I know that my family and husband would be disappointed.
anonshmanon
I definitely heard the message of empowerment in my youth. When I actually started competing with men at work, I realized that that was just words.
anon
See I haven’t. I’ve been an attorney for 7 years now. I’m still not sure how society says we are not supposed to make our mark? I’ve never heard, ever, that women should stay home, or women shouldn’t work, or anything like that. I’ve heard only the contrary. I am in the Northeast US.
Anonymous
Maybe listen better then. Idk what no national paid family leave or subsidized child care is if not a blaring air horn screaming “we don’t care if women work”
Anon
I think that makes a huge difference. I’m an attorney in the Northeast. Life hasn’t been so bad up here. I visit my inlaws in SC and the neighborhood cookouts tend to be awkward because I’m the only woman my age working and without kids (38). I try to make conversation with my MIL’s friends adult kids but I’m definitely the odd one out.
I have female friends that have tried to be attorneys in Florida and South Carolina and found terrible sexism at a degree that I have never experienced in the Northeast. Questions at interviews like “what does your husband think of you working long hours?” “Will you still want to work long hours if you have kids?” I have experienced nothing like that except for one question that was more gender neutral and likely asked of male and female candidates – are you able to travel out of the country for two week stints at at time?
anon
You live a much different existence than most of us. Really, you’ve never heard the old trope about working moms letting daycare “raise their kids”? Because that sh!t hurts, and it nearly ruined me when my oldest was little.
Carmen Sandiego
Because the messages aren’t that blunt? No one (or mostly no one) is explicitly saying “women should stay home and not work.” Society says women aren’t supposed to make their mark by not guaranteeing paid parental leave – that both men AND women are expected to take so that the stigma doesn’t fall solely to women. Society says women aren’t supposed to make their mark by not paying men and women equally for the same work. Society says that women aren’t supposed to make their mark when women are 10 times more likely than men to take time off of work to care for a sick child or elderly family member, despite the fact that in over half of American households women are the sole or primary breadwinner. Society says women aren’t supposed to make their mark when women are guilted for being “bad moms” because they work and their kids are in daycare, or they formula fed, or whatever. Society says that women aren’t supposed to make their mark when women are expected to uphold the status quo and go along with harassing behavior in the workplace so they don’t make a scene. Like Anonymous at 9:50 said, listen better.
Anon
I think you are failing to pick up on subtleties. Have you never heard someone ask a female coworker if they plan to return after maternity leave, for example?
Anon
I moved from the Northeast to the South, and let me tell you, it’s a world of difference and not in a good way. I may as well have moved fifty years back in time.
Anon
Same, anonshmanon. Same. It’s all “Girls can do anything!” until a girl does, in fact, try to do something historically not done by girls.
Anon
+1
This 100%.
I’m in a very male dominated field and it is so, so hard. I grew up in a family were women always worked (due to economic necessity, but there’s a lot of “strong females” in my family so they’d likely have worked anyways), women played college sports, women spoke their mind, etc. There was never a question about doing or not doing something based off of my gender when I was a kid. I became an adult and that went out the window…
Two things I’ve noticed. A) holy hell its hard to be a woman in a male dominated field. The sexism is RAMPANT, the work environment is super hostile , and women who dare speak up are punished.
B) my (I thought pretty supportive and progressive) family kind of have the attitude that this is what happens when women get into fields like this and if I didn’t want a hostile work environment I could have become a teacher like my mother, cousins, and aunts.
C) even when things aren’t intentionally made harder for women, it’s still just harder for women. We have no space to pump, our clothing and gear doesn’t fit, assignments “need” people who can lift a lot so there’s an “excuse” to overlook women
Anon for this
I’ve lived most of my life in the Southeast (age 40), and I’ve never heard society suggest that women aren’t supposed to make their mark, either, from either authority figures when I was younger or colleagues when I grew up.
If we want to get more nuanced, I do often feel like there’s a bit of a societal message almost entirely from women who are my current peers (that is, generally successful women in the prime career and parenting stages of life – most of us on this s!te, for example), that seems to push/echo an idea that the husband’s career is more primary and that the woman still has the most responsibility for the household. An example of that I’ve seen on this s!te several times is a bit of hostility to dating men who aren’t highly educated or to stay-at-home-dads as a concept, or the assumption that the mom will earn more/take a step back from her career if needed. But that is all very, very complicated and dependent on so many individual circumstances and in no way takes away from the idea that a woman can and should make a mark.
Anonymous
Are you married? Do you have children? In the southeast I frequently am asked what my husband thinks of my job, how my kids deal with my travel, etc. I have never gotten those questions in other parts of the country, unless I’m having a candid conversation about gender issues with another woman in a similar job.
Anon
I agree. I promise I’m not trying to start a sh*tstorm here, but this is exactly why I have always hated the switch to the phrase “people who can get pregnant.” If men got pregnant, we’d be on an equal playing field at work. We’d have a national child care system. We’d have flexibility and paid leave. It feels like there is even more lip service being paid to ~equality~ and ~all people~ than ever before right when women are losing more gains than ever before. End rant…
Anonymous
Yup, agree 100%.
NYNY
I don’t think you’re wrong, exactly, but I hope you can expand your view a little: The men who can get pregnant – transmen – are even more marginalized than most women. It shouldn’t hurt us to include them in the fight.
Anon
NYNY, I absolutely include transmen in my feminism, including when I advocate for better abortion access and so on, but I don’t agree with changing the language that applies to 50% of the world (without their input) for this when misogyny underlies so many of the problems we face. We need the words to describe that. I think you and I want the same things, but I feel strongly about the language issue and a lot of women I’ve spoken to have told me they agree. Hopefully we can all still work together.
anon
I agree with you.
NYNY
Anon @11:31am, I’m happy to be on the same team!
Anonymous
What? All the responses saying we need to accommodate families/children imply childcare is indeed women’s work … how about no, it is not women’s work (but parents’ work, etc). You’re trying to accommodate the sexism, not fighting it. Have a man do his share vs farming it out to other women.
Anonymous
Sigh
Anonymous
If you’re sighing because you know your man will never do his share of the work, he’s the problem & so are you for accepting that.
anon
Nope, stop blaming women for not taking individual responsibility in the face of structural/societal problems. This is so much bigger than what my husband (or yours) does or does not do around the house.
Anonymous
It’s also bigger than it’s somehow unfair that my husband and I are expected to care for our own children … lol
Anonymous
I don’t have children and my mom was the only one in her poor rural family (and frankly most of the town) to go to college (and has a master’s degree!). My dad worked nights, so he did a lot of my “class mom” volunteering. I grew up thinking women could do anything. Reality? I’ve experienced where even though I had higher education and industry awards, I was being paid less than male peers. Guys who are at my level have just expected me to make coffee when big wigs come in (I don’t even drink coffee!). Even the good guys aren’t always so great. One of our executive leaders frequently apologizes to me when he swears when I’m on a group call (only woman) . It’s weird. My boss (who has all strong females under him by choice or chance) is usually really great. But just the other day I was reading a proposal where he went out of his way to point out gender around a non-gendered word (picture “X will make a great pitchman (we can have pitch women, too!)”and other similar nonsense. If you threw race in a proposal like that, people would be aghast. But gender is OK to differentiate. Last past I worked, it was such a boys club (key reason I left) — it was nothing but sports. They even all started to dress alike (all shaved their balding heads at the same time, too). There was just no being equal or heard. Say what you want, but even when childcare isn’t holding you back, there’s all of these other subtle “you don’t belong” things that you don’t first realize until you actually think on it a bit more. Interviewees who assume the male project manager reporting to me is the one they need to impress. Clients who go to shake his hand first. Just not what I thought work life was going to be like when I was a little girl. In school, you could be top student by hard work. Win by merit. It felt more fair. Workplace, there’s so many other things that feed into who advances and how they’re treated.
Anon
I agree with this. A lot of what is billed as a “workplace sexism” issue really relates to unequal responsibilities in the home. This perpetuates sexism and creates the lingering expectation that women will take on the lion’s share of household work, especially child care. What’s even more frustrating is that attempts to label the issue what it is are attacked as “unfeminist” when it is the contrary. Perhaps PARENTS need additional flexibility at work, rather than WOMEN needing additional flexibility at work because we all assume she’s the main parent and that male parents are not as involved.
anon
Yes, all parents need flexibility. Feminists have been saying this for a long time!
Senior Attorney
When I was 31 I would have loved to quit and be a stay at home mom, too. I am SO GLAD I stuck it out in the workforce. It’s not that I set the world on fire with my career (although I like to think maybe I’ve made a difference or two along the way in a small way), but there’s nothing like being able to support yourself and your child(ren) and being mistress of your own destiny.
Anon Probate Atty
Yes. I almost bowed to the pressure, too. I felt the pressure to be a SAHM who “puts her children first”…and make no mistake, that IS the message that is sent to working mothers, in direct and indirect ways, here in the SEUS, anyway. I’m so glad I stuck with it, but I thought of quitting hundreds of times.
LaurenB
Raised in the northeast and now live in the Chicago area. Never felt pressure to be a SAHM. If there was pressure from the other moms in my children’s school — well, I was oblivious to it since I was working, so that was their problem if they felt I shouldn’t work, not mine. I don’t understand why other people’s opinions of your life choices are so important. If you / spouse are on the same page, then who cares what some mommy at PTA meetings thinks?
Anon
I largely agree with what you’re saying, LaurenB, as to mommies at PTA.
The issue is when professionals who hire you, headhunt you, or dole out projects at your company have Opinions about working mothers and believe we should be at home. The other problem comes when most of your husband’s friends think you should be at home and life with them is a never-ending series of rude, snotty comments. So you stop spending time with them and there’s blowback on your husband because his “cold” wife from Massachusetts doesn’t play nice.
Anon
I couldn’t begin to count the number of times people asked me why I kept working “when you don’t need to work” because of my husband’s presumed income. No one was asking a man that question. I always thought it was really important to model for my daughters that adults work and that everyone should be able to support themselves . That’s the norm, and likely to be necessary for them. There were days that were hard, but big picture, I have zero doubt that slogging through it was the best move.
Anon
I’m 55 and did not get that message at all. But I did it anyway.
Anon
I’m in public interest so I don’t have the kind of wealth that was discussed in yesterday’s question. I went to a private college on a combo of scholarships and loans, with no parental help at all (not even cosigning!). I worked for a few years in public interest and went to law school on a full tuition scholarship. I combined households with a boyfriend and we supported each other through his grad school and my law school — taking turns covering living expenses while the other was in school. After we both graduated, we were very frugal and paid off our loans faster than we would have if we had lived alone. We eventually broke up but those years gave me a huge economic advantage. I kept my frugal habits and now have a net worth of almost 300k, at 35 years old, having always worked in public interest jobs (I’ve never seen 6 figure salary and won’t for a few years at least) and never had any family assistance (I help out one parent financially by paying for some home repairs sometimes). I also live in a VHCOL city, but in a cheaper neighborhood (where I grew up). I grew up on food stamps. What I have is not a lot by the standards of this board, but I feel proud of myself.
Anon for this
I’m one of those people w/ “the standards of this board”. Just wanted to say that’s awesome! Great job :)
Anon
Thanks!
Carrie
You are fantastic. Way to go. A role model.
Marie
Awesome accomplishment.
Patricia Gardiner
Wow, you are awesome! Great job!!
Ellen
Yes, kudo’s for you for finding a boyfreind that did not just take and take and take, and not give. If my ex had been like your boyfreind, we would be married by now. Are you sad that you broke up with him? It does not sound like you were clear on the reasons for so doing. Do you have another boyfreind?
Granger
I don’t know what you mean by making a mark in ways the world says we shouldn’t, but this is my trajectory to date;
In my high school (public selective all girls school) the only two careers that were ever talked about were law and medicine. I thought I wanted to go into diplomacy or publishing, both of which would have fit into the expectations people had for me.
I ended up joining a life and pensions company for the reasons we talked about yesterday – craving stability and wanting to stand on my own two feet. This alone was stepping out of the expectation frame people had – all the women in my family have been teachers, except for one who is a paediatric psych.
I’m now working to green the economy from an ESG investment policy role – it’s not something anyone would have expected for me, but it totally fits my skill set and goals. I have achieved more professionally in the last six months than I could have imagined and it’s only just beginning.
Is that what you mean by making our mark?
Anon
I didn’t love the thread yesterday. It just reminded me how desperately unfair this country is. It’s honestly sick to think about people with second homes, nesting yachts and giant trust funds with the level of poverty and misery here. And while somebody will point out that poor people in the United States enjoy a higher standard of living than others around the globe, it is still a sad situation. People die without access to health care, mothers are stringing by without any support. Children suffer. The whole system stinks.
anon
I agree. I enjoyed it on a voyeuristic level, but at some point, wealth just becomes f*ck you money rather than doing anything good.
Anon
That’s why I hate Bezos. The man could literally pay college tuition for every student in this country if he wanted without even making a real dent in his fortune. I support 100% taxation above about $20M or so.
Anon
Um, good luck keeping businesses in the US with that policy…so goodbye middle class jobs. You can support higher taxes on the very rich (or say, raising CapGains taxes to match income taxes) without advocating for job killing policies that are kind of nuts.
Anonymous
It isn’t that easy when almost all of your wealth is tied up in public stock.
Anon
Let’s put some numbers to that. There are 14.5 million public university students and 5 million private college students in America. If public universities have “tuition” (just tuition, not room, board, books, fees) of $15,000 each, and private schools have tuition of $35,000 each (likely low, but go with it), then the total cost of college tuition for every student in America is approximately $400 billion dollars a year.
Bezos’ fortune is half that.
So please tell me why you think that a man could “iterally pay college tuition for every student in this country if he wanted without even making a real dent in his fortune” when that is demonstrably false.
Math is easy but life is hard when you’re bad at it.
Anon
+1. That thread made me uncomfortable.
anonymous
It just made me sad. I know we’re all running our own races and I know I’m more privileged than most, but man I worry so much about retirement, unpredictable health care costs for me and my parents (who don’t have substantial resources), paying off loans, whether I’ll ever by property and how much I’m “throwing away” on rent, whether I’ll ever feel financially “safe” enough to take a job that gives me a better quality of life. Yes, I am not unique, and it could be worse, but it just makes you feel down to face the fact that for many people, … those just aren’t concerns at all. What an incredibly freeing feeling that must be.
Anon
Same. And I say that as someone who had parents who have been incredibly generous, paid for college and helped with law school, etc., but to see those kinds of vast sums of money mentioned casually made me slightly ill. It’s only been the last few years that I’ve finally realized how many rich people there really are in this country while there is still so much poverty and suffering.
Anon
Yeah, the OP yesterday had asked about charity contributions, but only a few people responded to that. I’m guessing most do contribute and just didn’t say, but it’s still a sad reminder of how unequal our system is.
Anon
I also got very uncomfortable with how little people actually were aware of their level of wealth (or lack of wealth). But this is again consistent with income disparity in this country. People that are middle to upper middle class tend to believe they are wealthier than than are, which makes them opposed to taxes on the rich, etc. since they think of themselves as rich. People that really are wealthy tend to minimize their wealth.
Anon
I completely disagree. Most middle to upper middle class people I know minimize their wealth (just like they did on the thread yesterday – “only” inheriting $300K and so on) and vote Democrat. The really wealthy people tend to flaunt it (nesting yachts) and vote Republican and/or vote Dem, but not support tax increases.
Anon
This is untrue. The super-wealthy (above $10million net worth) vote Democrat by a wide margin. The middle class goes Republican.
Look at the uber wealthy in America: Gates, Buffett, Bezos. They aren’t exactly lining up behind Trump.
Kk
I agree- I think people have misguided perceptions of where they are in the grand scheme of things, because they only see such a limited window of the entire wealth-poverty spectrum.
Anonymous
I posted yesterday. The no idea what I will get but I know there is a trust for retirement poster. My family all vote Democrat. My grandfather, who was genuinely wealthy his entire life, was a Republican through Reagan but switched parties specifically to support progressive taxation of wealth when Republicans took on a regressive taxation position. I think there may be a difference between old and new money here, though.
Anonymous
In my area, those who vote republican tend to be non-college educated or (non professional) successful small businesses owners, usually of mostly cash businesses. They pay significantly less in taxes than your average professional employee, but still think they pay too much. It always seems unfair to me.
LaurenB
In my experience, those with elite educations and/or a lot of money vote Democratic, though more Biden-style than Sanders-style. I was a Buttigieg supporter, attended fundraisers and it was a well-to-do, educated crowd.
Anonymous
I don’t get the discomfort of that thread. These people have earned that money over generations — yes investment return is still earning. And no I don’t believe such wealth should be taxed away or Bill Gates should pay everyone’s college tuition or whatever — those folks earned it and it isn’t their problem if no one else goes to college. And no I’m one of those people. I only wish. I find threads like that motivating not OMG life is sooo unfair.
Anon
Honestly, I had never really been in favor of the reparations argument in the past. People today didn’t own slaves. We shouldn’t take their money. But after reading that thread and realizing that many people are still living off the money their ancestor’s who owned slaves made …. yeah, maybe we should have reparations.
Anon
I think distinguishing what or who’s money it is makes it impossible. Reparations are a policy fantasy ultimately – the practical details make it untenable. Why not just advocate for policies like raising Cap Gaines taxes to the level of income taxes to start?
Anonymous
Lol at Cap Gaines. Chip and Joana’s kid?
Anon
Were there any others who posted that? I posted on that thread yesterday and said that I was looking into whether any of my family’s wealth came from slavery (I don’t know – there isn’t evidence to suggest that yet). I would be really interested to see if others are dealing with similar issues, but I didn’t notice any similar posts on that thread.
Anon
At 11:26 – no one said that specifically but when they post about their great-grandfather’s wealth, assuming they are in their 30’s that person was probably working pre-civil rights era.
Anon
If you find it motivating, you are deluded. There are systems and structures in place so that you will never, ever get there.
Anonymous
So it’s better not to be motivated by it but it’s better to sit around being jealous of it? Sure — you go ahead and do that then. I mean can you work your way up to $20mil maybe not as an individual. Can you work your way up to $10 mil though, yes you can. Can that next generation then grow that $10 mil to 30mil, yes they can. But sure go ahead and just whine about how it isn’t possible.
anon
@11:56 – it doesn’t matter if you derive motivation or jealousy from it. The point is that you’re unlikely to achieve it unless you’ve already got a leg up. Your optimism is nice, albeit naive.
Anon at 11:17
Lady, I’m a senior executive who makes a pile of money. I know the system is rigged because I am on the inside. I’m not jealous of anyone or anything.
Anonymous
Hahaha. “Earned” You keep using that word, I don’t think it means what you think it means ~ Inigo Montoya
LaurenB
“Earned” in quotes? My father was poor as a child – as in, empty tummy level poor. He dropped out of high school and enlisted in the Army because he had no place to go, and a family that didn’t say boo when he dropped out. He worked his way up to becoming president of a successful company. I fail to see how he didn’t “earn” it or why he should feel guilty for wanting his money to go to his grandchildren. As for my FIL, he worked several jobs at once until he became successful in his field and I know for a fact how much medical care he has given away for free. I know it’s fashionable to pretend that people who have money all got it from Great-Great-Great-Grandpa Vanderbilt, but that’s just not the case.
anon
Lauren – what year were your father and FIL born? The kind of upward mobility you described (president without a high school diploma?! That level of education is disqualifying for *internships*) indicates that these men came of age long ago. No disrespect to their hard work but things have definitely worsened and become more unequal since they acquired their riches.
Aunt Jamesina
Sure, your father earned it. You didn’t, which is the point.
anonshmanon
Two thoughts on this: the people born into generational wealth have definitely not earned anything over a baby born into a poor family.
As the discussion yesterday showed, a lot of people can work hard and save up a small fortune (what I call the American Dream), but that kind of modest wealth is very easily eaten up by health costs etc. in old age or one generation later. The kind of obscene wealth that gives you and your kids the security to never have to work a day in your life, is obtained by exploiting others’ labor, however indirect that may be. Tax forms already distinguish between earned income and other sources of income, for good reason.
Abby
I think most of the posters yesterday didn’t have the kind of wealth to never have to work a day in their lives though.
Anon
I wish everyone could have that kind of baseline security. Working to achieve goals and improve the world is one thing, but working to not starve or end up on the streets is another. We know that the latter is tremendously stressful and also makes it harder to turn down work that’s not actually improving the world at all.
Anonymous
Exploiting other’s labor? Is today communism day? The folks who are obscenely wealthy in our generation have largely built successful businesses that employ lots of people. That’s a good thing, not an evil. The ones we should focus on are the private equity guys, who seem to get paid massively to load up companies with debt and then throw them into bankruptcy.
anon
Not all jobs are good jobs. Would you ever work in an Amazon warehouse or as a delivery driver?
Anon
I’ve done warehouse and delivery work. It *IS* a good job, particularly if you don’t have further education. I’m in a professional position now, but much of my nest egg is the result of doing that work. The idea of self-driving vehicles scares the crap out of me, because truck-driving is one of the few solid jobs left for workers who lack higher education, have a language barrier, can’t work 8-5, live in small towns with few jobs, etc.
anonshmanon
I wouldn’t sya I’m a communist, but yeah, I view extreme capitalism critically. I also don’t want to make a moral argument that a plantation owner whipping his slaves is equal to all of us who own mutual funds that include amazon stock that can increase steadily in worth while underpaying their warehouse workers and drivers. It’s a much more indirect exploitation, but it is still exploitation. I think we as society can do better by the members that have it the hardest.
Anon
I fully agree. My parents don’t come from money and have saved about $10M for retirement by being frugal upper middle-class earners. They are rich by most people’s standards, but they could easily spend it all on end-of-life healthcare especially if one or both of them gets dementia. On the other hand they could die in a car crash before they have any health problems and I would inherit what feels to me like an obscene amount of money. Healthcare is such a huge unknown in this country that you can go from wealthy to not in basically an instant.
Anon
+1
I don’t come from wealth. I had college debt and I know that my children will get some inheritance. I don’t think there is anything wrong with that.
I have thought about it a lot before coming to that conclusion. Children will inherit a lot of good as well as bad things from their parents which makes people to attain success easily or difficult. For example, children may inherit great genes, grow up in a loving home (even when poor) etc. I can never become an sports person or model/actress as my body is not built for either of them. Now, I can complain about it all I want. But the truth is I am at a disadvantage due to my genetic make up. However, I do have an advantage of coming from a stable (even though low middle class) household. I consider money is just like any of these things that children inherit. Some inherit more/some inherit less/ some none/ some may inherit debt. There is nothing good or bad about it.
Anon
They earned it over generations…you see how that doesn’t make sense? They earned nothing their dead relatives did
Anonymous
So, I am an old, and got the message I could be a SAHM, a nurse or a teacher. My maths teacher refused to call on me in class or answer my questions after class and the Principal of the school called me into his office to tell me I should not take physics because I would take away an opportunity for a male student who would need the class to be an engineer. I caved on maths but did take all the science courses and went on to law school and to have a successful career in MidLaw as a partner. A successful partner is an entrepreneur running her own business. At the prime of my career I kept dozens of people employed with the matters I brought in. I am ramping down to retirement but still bring in work for the firm. My success has made it easier for the next generation of talented women to get a shot. It has also helped set us up for a comfortable retirement and we will be leaving a bit to the schools that gave me a chance.
anonshmanon
That’s really inspiring!
anon
I love your tenacity. Great story.
Patricia Gardiner
Wow – guessing I’m maybe 25 years or so younger than you and I’m horrified to hear how they discouraged you! Awesome that you persevered, and thank you for paving the way for those a few years later!
Andy
I am an old too–likely older than most here. In high school, I was the best math student by far–and my high school office proudly called me in to tell me that they had arranged an after school job for me….as a bank teller. In my day, women couldn’t aspire to much. The usual professions, until kids, maybe. I sought more. Ultimately an MBA (and almost a PhD–the almost due to reasons not pertinent here) from one of the two best programs in the country, paying for it by myself, since my family refused to contribute. But *every* job, from the research center for a Major Accounting Firm, to various (well-known) High Tech Giants, included many, many micro-aggressions. Example: when about to go on vacation, a boss did an obscene gesture to indicate what I’d be doing. And another constantly get obscene ‘jokes’ in my presence.
But you know–even worse were some of the moms at sports events for my two kids, who bragged about giving up extremely high level jobs because staying home was more important. And how could I work? I was hurting my kids? We were a two-income family–necessary (no family wealth here) to ensure those two kids could get a good education and go to college. I did my share of classroom volunteering (even teaching an entire second grade class how to make challah, with each kid taking more a loaf). But it was always assumed that I was lessor at work. My voice was not important. Just as it was at home, when I was a kid. No ‘go girl’ for me.
And now? my family died and it turned out they actually did have funds–hidden from me–which I inherited. We’ve paid off all our kids loans and helped them with down payments. We stand ready to help them as needed–they are both, btw, happy, successful and also very cognizant of what women and minorities go through.
Times have changed, yes, but there is still much ground to cover. Every kid raised to believe in equality of gender and race is a step in the right direction. It’s over for me–I’m very old now–but the next generations will do their part.
anon from yesterday
I think maybe yesterday’s question wasn’t detailed enough- a trust fund isn’t indicative of real wealth- many people can set up a trust to transfer wealth without some of the gift/estate taxes and court filings. It’s more common than you’d think and if you’re able to save for college/retirement, I’d recommend you also look into setting up trusts for your dependants.
Like one of the posters mentioned yesterday, we have a family office – 60+ people who maintain our investments and provide “client services” to us as 6th and 7th generation family beneficiaries. We can live on a small part of the interest from any one of the multiple trusts and funds, and have started multiple foundations (we dont have them named after ourselves, which I appreciate!)
I dont have to work, but I do. It’s important to me that I get to have a BIG career and do something worthwhile with my time and ambition – I acknowledge my priveledge but I also work damn hard towards my achievments. It’s important to me that I volunteer and make personal charitable donations, and it’s important that many of the people in my life don’t know about our family’s wealth- we try and live well but relatively under the radar. It’s important to me that my family votes for the opportunity of ALL people, even if that might slightly diminish our own opportunity for further wealth – the family office that was set up 70+ years ago will ensure my own descendants’ safety net, but I hope to create a family culture of hard work and compassion.
Anon
Lol – I don’t care what your self perception is. You haven’t worked that hard to get where you are.
Anon
Security is a great foundation for hard work. A safe place to sleep, good nutrition, good healthcare, and good education are all easier to attain with $, and people can go really, really far with those advantages if they also work hard.
Anon
I don’t have any inherited wealth. Many people who made their own wealth generally have intangible advantages which gave them a leg up. It is not all sheer hard work anyways. That is the way world is. The sooner you accept this and start working with reality, the better off you will be.
Anon
I am working with reality. Somebody with this level of wealth has connections, networks and advantages we can only dream of. Attributing her achievement to working damn hard is nonsense. The narrative she has in her head is false.
Anon
I am the Anon above you. I had an intern who came to our team (transferred from some other team). We are a mega tech company. He had no qualification to join either our team or the sister team who hired him. If he had applied to the position directly in our job portal, we would have not even called him for an interview.
— He got in because his dad was a VP of the group before retiring.
— He had a meeting with me where I had to direct him about the work he needs to do. He told me he had to cancel the meeting with me because he had to meet the top guy in our entire department (who is above VP or even senior VP, manages tens of billions of dollars business). I was stunned. Here I am, worked for a decade, never thought it was even an option to meet the top boss. 22 year old ill qualified guy got it.
— There are three more people from the family (sister, uncle and uncle’s daughter), all of them work in the same floor.
— He would have easily got a job offer (again due to influence), but refused as he wanted to tour Europe for 6 months. Thanks to Corona, now the hiring is completely frozen.
— He would casually speak about his European vacations, road trips across all 50 states in the US, $100 wine etc.None of my colleagues (current or previous) had come from this level of privilege. This was my first experience with a person who from this type of background.
I resented this chap. He stole an opportunity from a better qualified guy purely because who his dad was. I often think about this.
However, I still stick to my position. I see all the advantages and accept that is how things are and work with it for myself. When I get to some position of power, I really want to make sure that I level the field as much as possible, whatever is in my capacity.
Anon
But you understand that if we interviewed this guy, he would say that he worked damn hard and got everything through merit right?
Anon
Absolutely…He got some cosmetic dental work done (including whitening) and told me how his parents wanted him to get it done himself as it was not a necessity. He couldn’t get it done soon as he had no income. Once he started the internship, he got dental insurance as well as money and now he could pay for it. He was trying to imply that he has to work as hard as other folks to get things. I was rolling my eyes.
Anonymous
Getting a leg up doesn’t diminish your own hard work. I don’t understand the derision in this comment/viewpoint.
Anon
Because a lot of societal ills stem from rich people thinking they’re “one of the good ones”
LaurenB
Is today “resent rich people” day?
Anon
Every day is resent rich people day, bb.
Anonymous
@LaurenB, we know you’re not rich.
Anon
I wouldn’t say I’ve made a mark on the world but I’m a partner at a law firm and feel that I have accumulated a fair amount of wealth for myself by myself. I had my first job when I was 15 to save up money to buy a really terrible used car but it was mine! I paid for my undergrad through a combination of scholarships, loans and working during school. I didn’t have a lot of down time but I managed to work part time (20 hours/week), take a full course load and had a few unpaid internships (~15 hours/week). My parents took out a small ($10k loan) because financial aid made them but I paid that back. I paid for law school through a combination of scholarships, loans, working for a firm as a 1L and 2L in the summer and tutoring part time as a 2L and 3L. My husband had no student loans but makes significantly less than I do. We met when I was in law school and didn’t really change our spending habits once I started in big law so were able to aggressively pay down loans and then save up for a downpayment once those were paid off by banking salary raises and bonuses. I’m a junior-ish partner so the path ahead is still quite long and I’m very frequently still the only woman in the room (so lol at the posters who claim that girls can do anything is not just a phrase but not true in reality). I’m still pretty frugal and aside from fairly modest lifestyle inflation (mostly outsourcing to make my hours more managable). I don’t think people looking from the outside in would think we are wealthy (we drive old cars and don’t really own fancy things) but we have built up a significant amount of wealth (approaching $2 million) by my mid 30s, which still amazes me as someone who grew up thinking that TGIFridays was a fancy restaurant
Anonymous
I’ve told this story here before, but not recently. I’ve been supporting myself since I was 14, my first job was on a farm. While I was in high school, I lived with my parents, or my grandma, or a friend that’d have me and sometimes I slept on the floor of the ice cream store where I was a waitress (they had carpeted aisles). I never thought about college or about being something but I was very driven to work hard. I managed to get an office job, and went to secretary school at night. I managed to get promoted a few times, and I remember once I got a new boss who gave me a 5000 raise because I was so underpaid compared to the men. I still made 30%+ less.
My career has been in purchasing, sales, training, IT, and government policy. I moved for jobs, and went to school at night for years. My net worth is $12 – $15 million. I did this by having good jobs, I never spent a bonus but invested it, I taught myself stock investing, and I live in a small house in a high cost of living area. I budget religiously. I got lucky with stock.
I have trusts so that if I die my sister gets money but managed by her daughter and so that my husband has income but the bulk of the money goes to my niece and nephews after his death. I don’t want to die and have my money go to my husbands second wife! I donate to causes I care about — food banks, libraries, and animals. I will retire at 60 and move near my husbands family.
I think the world expected nothing of me. Not sure I expected anything of myself except I was driven to make sure I could support myself. I am OK with that, I don’t care all that much what people think of my choices. My grandma earned a living washing hospital floors, sometimes on her hands and knees. I am grateful I don’t do that.
Anon
You are amazing!
EB
I am catching up from yesterday and thought I would comment on the emailing after hours. Typically I don’t hesitate to, but would note that if a client emails me in the evening or on the weekend, I always respond as soon as I can, so if you’re emailing your (or your company’s) attorney, please keep that in mind!
Anonymous
Yes, this is why the delay function is useful. Some of us don’t get to simply ignore after-hours emails. So if you send the email we are going to read it (and have our lives interrupted by it). If it can wait, sending with a delay will avoid that unnecessary interruption.
In-House in Houston
What is the delay function? I missed the thread yesterday.
anonshmanon
On Gmail it’s called schedule send.
Anonymous
And in Oulook it is delay delivery, which allows you to hit send but not have the email show up for the recipient until a later time you select, typically the following morning.
Anon
Yes. I think what was lost on some of the posters yesterday saying the other party can just “turn off their phone” is the pull one feels if they are in a pure sales function.
I am someone that is the “client” in most of my external interactions. I really get in my best work rhythm Fri afternoons (odd, I know!) and I try to delay delivery of my emails I do then to Monday morning all the time. I’m just firing off things to get them off my plate, and they can certainly wait until next week, but I know if the sales people assigned to me see the email on a Friday they will feel like the need to (and maybe even their co policy is they do need to!) get back to me. While I know I’m an easy going person and my need isn’t urgent, I promise you they deal with plenty who aren’t and expect things ASAP so they probably have to treat everyone’s emails that way.
Anon
I mean, know your audience then. It would be zero problem if I sent an after hours email. Nobody I work with is expected to answer them.
TheElms
If I am emailing in the evening or on Friday afternoon and the issue is not urgent I tend to put in the subject (Read in the AM/ Read Monday). It catches people off guard the first time but after that people realize I mean it. Also, if I know I’m going to get back to someone late in the day I tell them that and let them know in advance that I don’t need them to begin working on it until the next day. Do you think that is sufficient?
anon
My first boss used to do this and I really appreciated it.
Anonymous
It is helpful, but I am still (as a lawyer) going to stop what I am doing and/or ignore the person I am with for a moment and read the email. It can be incredibly stressful to have to do that 7 days a week except when sleeping. And when I am with someone with different work expectations, it is even more annoying to them. It creates real tension in my family and friend relationships.
Anonymous
I am a lawyer – you are doing this to yourself. If the re: line says not urgent or don’t read until another day, DON’T READ IT.
Anon
Isn’t that a you problem though? Do you mean you will stop to read the subject line or the whole email? If you can’t step back after seeing it is not urgent it is a you problem.
Anon
+1 Definitely a you problem.
Anonymous
But even reading the subject line is an unnecessary interruption. I am not doing this to myself other than by continuing to work with my current partners, who contact me and expect responses all day and all evening most days. I have never worked at a firm that was different. If an email arrives, I will pick up my phone to review at least the subject and source. A night where nothing arrives after 6:30 would be a godsend. If you can help make that happen for someone, why not do it?
Alexis
Looking for some resume advice:
For the past 1.5is years I’ve been doing contract work that’s been about 4-8 months long each. Before that I had a normal job history, normal lengths of time. What’s the best way to show this on a resume?
*Contract Work*
Contract A
Contract B
Contract C
*Prior Experience*
Job 1
Job 2
I’m kinda worried about the second header – it makes those jobs seem less related or important, when they really aren’t at all. I just want to indicate what the 3 contract jobs are and not look job-hoppy. I basically need a better second header
Anon
Skip the second header entirely.
Anonymous
Independent Contractor 2019-2020. Then list the placements as bullet points?
Panda Bear
I could have sworn Ask a Manager did a post on this exact question but I can’t seem to find it. At any rate, I think what she said (and what makes sense to me) is pretty much what you are doing – put all the contract work together as one “job”. If I were looking at your resume what you have here would make sense to me. I would say you probably don’t even need to separate ‘contract work’ from ‘prior experience’ … just have it all under ‘experience’ like so:
Experience
Contract work
– contract A
– contract B
– contract C
Old Job before you started contracting
– bullet points
Job before that
– bullet points
ALEXIS
I was looking for that post too but couldn’t find it! Maybe it’s buried in a question?
Thanks!
Anon Friend
Can anyone recommend a good Philadelphia florist? A friend there just hit a huge career milestone (5-10 years ahead of “schedule” because she is awesome) and I’d like to send her something. Thanks!
Anon
Petit Jardin En Ville or Pure Design at 22nd and Lombard.
Cat
Robertson’s
ollie
Vault and Vine
Anon
I don’t have any recommendations, but it’s really nice that you’re celebrating this success for your friend.
Sparky
Ten Pennies in South Philadelphia, the customer service is great
Anon
Does anyone have an online source for liquid hand soap? I’m seeing a lot of “hand wash” and “hand cleanser” but no good old fashioned soap. Preferably not anti-bacterial. Or alternatively, stores that have soap in stock? I’ve been to a Target, CVS and a grocery store (Kroger) and they were all out.
Go for it
Dr Bronner’ s is usually available at most health food stores
Anon
What time have you gone to Target? I’ve only been able to find soap/disinfecting wipes etc. first thing in the morning or immediately after the hour reserved for vulnerable customers, so might be worth a try if you’re able to. Also looks like Target has a few (including Dr. Bronner’s) available for shipping.
anonshmanon
I’m not sure what you mean. Hand wash contains soap, even if that’s not on the label.
Anon
I’m going to put in a plug for a small business in my home state of West Virginia – Wild Mountain Soap Company! Their castile hand soap is antibacterial, but it is really nice and doesn’t dry my hands out. Bonus: you can customize the scent. https://www.wmsoap.com/product/liquid-hand-soap/
Just me
Thank! I am trying to support more small USA companies. Soaps look amazing- placed an order.
Anon
Oh, how nice of you! The products and the owners are awesome – I’ve met them several times at maker expos. I hope you love the soaps as much as I do!
anon
How is hand wash not soap? I’m confused.
NY CPA
+1
Anonymous
It is. There’s weird nonsense floating about the internet about this
Anon
Not OP, but I avoid “hand wash” because stuff labeled that way tends to have overpowering scent.
Never too many shoes...
Oh dear, I fear this is another thing I have been doing wrong.
anon
Right? I can’t keep up. IDK, I buy whatever gets my hands clean and what’s actually in stock at my local stores during pandemic times. I’m not very brand loyal. Mrs. Meyers, Softsoap, Dove, Method, etc. have all been in the rotation.
Chocolate is My Middle Name
Target, CVS, Vitacost, Amazon, Walmart, Walgreens all seem to have plenty available for buying online. Brands ranged from Method, Watkins, Softsoap, Dr. Bronner, Tom’s of Maine, and several store brand, or generic.
NY CPA
Target and Amaz0n both have Mrs. Meyers liquid hand soap in stock for shipping. There’s also a ton of other brands available.
AFT
Amazon has Method bubbly soap (dial complete alternative) available.
Anonymous
Organic Bath Company. BOB.
anon
I LOVE Blueland. I’ve been using it for more than a year. It is quick, easy, and cheap to order refills.
Anon
I switched to regular bar soap at home to reduce my plastic consumption! Just basic Cetaphil, dove, whatever.
Anon
If you want old fashioned, you buy a bar of soap.
anon
I like this quite a lot, and it would fill a hole in my WFH wardrobe, but $65 for jersey?! Can someone report whether this holds up well, resists pilling, etc.?
Panda Bear
I don’t have this exact top, but I have several other jersey items from Boden. I have to say that they do all hold up very well. Their price point is higher than what I normally pay at stores like J.Crew or Ann Taylor, but mostly that is because the latter so often have such deep discounts, and the quality is generally significantly better. I say give it a try it you like it and haven’t bought much from Boden. I’ve always been pleased with their stuff.
Ribena
Seconded – that said, I do always buy with a discount.
I’m not sure if customers in the States get this, but when I haven’t made a purchase in a while, they send me a £10 voucher. These have expiry dates on, but they don’t actually expire! The system lets you use two at once. £20 off on top of a percentage discount code can save a LOT.
Gail the Goldfish
They do send those out to US customers occasionally. There’s also usually a code for at least 10-15% off on the physical catalogs, so if you’re not on their mailing list, I suggest getting on it. Their clothes do hold up well. My work from home wardrobe for this summer is pretty much exclusively Boden jersey dresses.
Anonymous
If you haven’t tried Poshmark for things like this, it’s a great option. I found 4 of these exact tops on Poshmark listed for $22-$30 (and you should always make an offer). While you can’t return them, it’s a good way to try something out. And if you know for sure that X size will fit you in X brand, then it’s a very safe purchase. If you’ve never tried Poshmark, use my code and you’ll get $5 off your first purchase (I’ll get $5 off too). My code is merrpg.
Thanks!
CountC
Teach me your ways!! I just searched for Boden Dakota Jersey and filtered to tops and didnt’ see a single one of these! Help!
Anonymous
At the very top search bar I just entered Boden Dakota Jersey and it should automatically filter to “in Women’s Market” (don’t choose “in all market” and hit search. I didn’t filter for tops – and 4 came up. Try again!
CountC
There must not be any in my size – I always have the size filter on, but when I turned it off I saw one or two white ones. Oh well. Thanks!
Anonymous
I find Boden quality and price well aligned, their linen t-shirts are a summer GoTo for me and they last multiple years. My only disappointment was a ponte knit dress with light color trim, the trim greyed.
Anon
For women who are in very male dominated fields, how do you find “tools of the trade” if you will?
I’m in a field with lots of gear, but I can’t ask the men for recs because it doesn’t fit me. A lot of the men are sexist/hostile and sometimes you need to vent. I have a few close female friends at work but also don’t know other women in my field to get outside perspective, etc.
Anon
What kind of gear are we talking about? Are we talking tactical pants and body armor? Can’t help with the latter, but for the former, my favorites are 5.11 Tactical Stryke Covert Cargo Pants.
Anonymous
I assemble a team of the outcasts: women, gay men, POC, to be allies. We are all dealing with similar BS and can be of assistance to each other either practically with advise or a safe space to vent. Pre pandemic I also went to events for women in my field and looked for people there who wanted to stay in touch.
Anonymous
I handle this two ways- 1- customize my gear and/or re-work the action I’m taking to work with my size/gear. Sometimes I can’t use the purpose-built gear the men use, but I can see what the thing does and use something else, or maybe find a tool made for a different use and repurpose it for me. 2- I also reach out to other women in the field and build a network so I have people I can ask for help who may have had this issue/solved this problem before. They may have a solution they can share with me, but at least they’ll understand my frustration.
Anonymous
If we’re talking clothing for field work (as a former field scientist for a construction company), I think there was past suggestions for finding clothes that fit at hunting supply shops where they do have proper womens’ sizes. My first safety vest in a men’s S definitely was waaayy too large for me, a women’s XS at the time, and it took me 4 years to get a safety vest that wasn’t also a safety hazard in getting caught in things…. For puncture proof shoes, I just went to Redwing. Expensive, but worth the proper fit and durability. For work gloves, sometimes I’d just purchase them on my own and expense it since the firm wouldn’t buy one-off small sizes for just a couple of women who did field work.
Hand/power tools – this one I still struggle with. As a petite woman, there are simply some larger power tools (like a drill bit as tall as I am) I just can’t operate safely. So I ask to have help, and frame it as a safety issue. Generally when I frame my concerns as “field safety,” management is more likely to listen since they want a good safety record vs trying to get management to remember that there are actually women who do field work instead of “all women only do administrative tasks.”
Anon
No advice, but for anyone looking for more background on this issue the book Invisible Women gives a ton of info about the lack of women-appropriate gear (and other ways women are left out of data-driven decisions).
Anon
I looked for alternatives. When the male gear belt assigned to me didn’t fit me right, I went to Hot Topic and bought a teenage knock off that fit perfectly and worked amazingly. I still own it today and occasionally just wear it as a black belt.
This was before law enforcement was wearing more combat style clothes. I was a corrections officer where we wore khakis and a dress shirt and we were supposed to have this gear belt that looked like a regular belt but was sturdier to hold a radio and cuffs. The hot topic one did the trick.
I also google the heck out of stuff. A friend found bullet proof vests online that had allowances for boobs. She got her department to order her one of those instead of the standard issue one.
Anon
I’ve said “hey, this doesn’t fit me” and then I expense something that isn’t in the catalog. I once made them buy me a bra because I had to dress in clothes made of certain materials.
Anon
Even true in regular offices. No way that the “standard” desk chair does not create a world of physical problems for someone my height (5’2”), but there are no alternatives offered by most employers to reflect that women’s bodies, on average, are smaller than men’s bodies. Smaller than average women are at a double disadvantage. I can only imagine the challenges for those working in less gender-mixed environments.
Anonymous
Jumping off of the discussion yesterday about how long it takes to find an in house legal job….. There were a lot of comments about how many in house jobs are *not* 9-5 and you shouldn’t mention that in an interview. I’m not the OP from yesterday, and I think not making these comments makes total sense. However, I think the reality is that a lot of firm lawyers are looking to move to in house jobs to provide a reprieve – less hours, no billing time like you do in a firm, maybe actually being able to take a vacation or plan for a day off.
I get that you shouldn’t say these things, but what should be the reasons someone wants to go in house? For those of you who are in house, what were your reasons for going in house and what have people said in interviews that made you want to hire them (or not hire them)?
I’ve been in the final rounds of in house interviews 3 times and haven’t gotten the offers, so I fear that I’m missing something I should be saying or saying something I shouldn’t (and I haven’t mentioned work life balance at all, I promise). TIA!
Cat
I promise, everyone who is in-house knows these basic work-life balance things that applicants from firms want. It’s the people that focus on that rather than the practicalities of in-house life that are seen as just trying to flee from a firm rather than land at your particular location.
Basic tips-
-have skimmed the news about latest developments at client or their industry
-you want to focus on really getting to know one client across business areas, vs lots of clients on the same topic
-related to the above, emphasize that you are a quick study and willing to learn new areas (probably a third of my job has nothing to do with my firm expertise)
-there is a lot of “perfect is the enemy of the good” in-house; focus on your practical viewpoint to resolving deal or case issues.
The original Scarlett
Honestly it’s just hard for a lot of firm lawyers to make the switch because in-house work is more practical and business focused. My last choice for filling a role is someone right from a firm unless they’re very junior because it’s a lot of “unlearning” that has to happen. To get past that, try to do more counseling work and talk to more in-house lawyers about how hey work so you can answer questions that show proactiveness and practicality and not a leave no stone unturned/ overly cautious approach.
Anonymous
I agree with this. We had someone who had no business experience and she could never grasp the risks as it related to the business (not my hire). I was fortunate to have worked in business prior to going to law school, so while I certainly had to learn the specifics of our industry, I had a basic understanding of finance/accounting, marketing, etc., which is very helpful in-house.
cbackson
So I see in-house attorneys say this a lot on this board, but I have to be honest that since moving in-house in January, I have observed that there is definitely a common species of in-house lawyer that is not business-oriented at all and is focused on eliminating risk to the extent that they drive business leads crazy. I agree that a *good* in-house lawyer is practical and business-focused, but there are definitely a lot of people within my org and in the other companies we work with who don’t fit that bill.
FWIW, the person who hired me specifically said he prefer to hire directly from law firms at the senior associate/counsel level because he views firm attorneys as having a better ethic of client service.
Cat
+1
It’s not that no in-house counsel get hung up on minutia… it’s that people don’t particularly like working with them, and if you can show you understand how to apply judgment then that is a good sign you won’t be one of them.
The original Scarlett
Oh I agree, it’s definitely a problem but it’s one we want to avoid and fix, hence a lot of the bias. Hiring is hard – no matter how good the interviews are you just don’t know who you’re getting.
Anonymous
I am a business lead and I totally agree with this. The best statement I have heard defining this is that these type of lawyers “constipate the business”. Pragmatism is the way to be a good in-house attorney.
cbackson
Not to sidetrack this thread, but it seems like this develops in particular when the lawyer and the business line don’t have a relationship of trust. Then the lawyers start to think the business line is crazy/unreasonable and become less flexible, and the business line views the lawyers as inflexible/unreasonable and tries to sideline them to avoid delay. Which only makes the problem worse bc then issues *don’t* get surfaced until late in the process and then there *is* delay due to legal review and often we have to retroactively fix problems that wouldn’t have appeared if legal had been more closely involved earlier. I don’t know what the solution is to fixing this problem, but it’s one I’m struggling to solve with respect to one of the teams I supervise and it’s a really hard dynamic to deal with once it’s established.
Anon
Hum, not sure about that.
The real issue comes up when the company culture assigns the blame to legal and the profits to the business. My company lets the business team make the ultimate decisions on risk; we advise them. If something goes haywire, and it has even in the short time I’ve been here, the business team takes the heat for the risk they accepted.
Previously, I’ve been in environments wherein no matter what happened, the blame landed on Legal – even when another department, e.g., flat out lied to us and caused a million dollar problem. Another company had a situation wherein one department was shielded from any type of repercussion; for example, if Department X negotiated a massively unprofitable deal, a different department absorbed the costs. It resulted in Department X being almost abusive to Legal in an attempt to force deals through. I guess the rest of the company supported us in putting the brakes on, but it made for hostile and tense interactions.
Anonymous
It’s hard because of people being gatekeepers like you!
The original Scarlett
Ummm, yeah? In-house departments need to gatekeep? I don’t understand this comment, especially when many of us are trying to explain the issues you might be running into.
Anonymous
What you’re saying is that you can’t get an in house job uNless you’ve already had an in house job. Riddle me that.
The original Scarlett
Ah, no – I’m saying it’s harder not impossible. Tips are doing it earlier in your career when there’s less firm bias, getting secundment experience at a firm, work before law school to get business experience, get client counseling experience at a firm and use these things to show you can transition when you interview. Among other tips others have already said re judgment, etc.
Lyssa
Since I moved in-house, one thing that’s really struck me that I think would play well in an interview is how much more integrated and part of the team and company’s mission I am now. My employer was previously my main client, but there’s a really big difference between working with an organization as a part of it verses as an outsider. I’m with a community-minded non-profit, so that makes a difference, but I think that general attitude would play well in any company.
Anon
I love being in the room when strategic decisions are being made and having input. I’m glad I don’t have to worry about malpractice — we often allow things to be good enough and don’t get caught up in being perfect or pedantic. I enjoy working with non-lawyers who are not watching the clock when they are talking to me. I like not being in a silo – today I will work on a trade compliance matter, a commercial dispute and a seminar for our women’s group. I like working in a multi-functional group. I like not billing my time or drumming up business. It’s all about the work.
Honestly, I think the 9-5 thing rubs me the wrong way because I’ve had more than a couple law firm lawyers who look down their nose at in house counsel. A lawyer at a big law firm once called me a glorified paralegal. (I wasn’t insulted – paralegals rock! But it was a mischaracterization) As if we aren’t working hard. We work hard. We just cut out the nonsense. I’m a GC – my business is always on my mind. I care about it, and the employees, deeply. That being said, I do take vacations and time off.
LaurenB
“Honestly, I think the 9-5 thing rubs me the wrong way because I’ve had more than a couple law firm lawyers who look down their nose at in house counsel.”
So let them look down at it. They can’t seriously think their own careers are somehow “admired” by the rest of the world.
Anon
Uh yeah, I do?
Anonymous
From my experience, as a big 4 partner for 15+ years, partners of those firms and big law firms tend to breathe a lot of their own exhaust re: the importance of their career and how admired it is. Yes, you make a lot of money, but you give up most of your life and often your soul.
Airplane.
“I want to be a part of the business strategy, instead of providing one-off counsel for specific matters in a vacuum, I am more interested in being a part of the long term business strategy and tailoring my legal advice to fit in with those goals”
“I want to provide more practical solutions that are feasible for the client. Oftentimes in private practice we spend a lot of time and effort giving the best, perfect legal answer – sometimes is not something that can be realistically implemented. So I want to learn more about the opportunities (and limits) of a particular business and provide the best legal guidance within those parameters.”
Also, the best skill you can have in-house is sound judgment. TBH, I don’t know that this skill is particularly easy to evaluate in interviews and I don’t know if this why you have made it to the final round and then not received the offer. I will say that I interview Biglaw firm lawyers a lot who have the hard skills (comprehension, drafting, research, analysis, communication) but they don’t seem like they can give real guidance or make judgment calls, and you really need that in an in-house department. When you are in-house you don’t just present the options – well, here are your options in order of least to most legal risk and let the business make the decision. You really have to know when you need to say no or insist on your guidance and when things are nice-to-have or not urgent. You have to balance the many facets and other concerns of business with your legal guidance and avoid suggestting something that is not doable given the way your business works just because it would be nice-to-have for legal reasons. I get the sense when I interview that some candidates are not great that distinguishing these differences. I also need people that won’t bow to sales pressure to give on important points just because your “client” is pressuring you. Sometimes law firms lawyers aren’t used to this type of pressure and have a hard time adjusting.
Anonymous
What kinds of questions do you ask to figure this out?
Cat
-For recruiting, think back to more junior associates (that you worked with or your peers at other firms did – ask them!). If you left as a senior associate, by the time you’re influencing hiring, those people are more senior now. Were there any that impressed you with the ability to combine strong substantive skills with the ability to communicate the topic well in a nutshell, to a client that’s not an expert? Did they understand if a client opted for a ‘riskier’ approach for business reasons?
-For a cold applicant, this is harder because of course you have no working knowledge, but you can test them a bit. Ask them to explain a complicated issue they recently negotiated or how they helped counsel a client through a tough decision. How do they handle it when someone disagrees with their advice.
Others hopefully have more ideas… I’d be interested in hearing them myself!
The original Scarlett
+1 to all of this
Anonymous
OP here – thanks all for the input. It’s great to have these insights. My husband has been in house at a large bank for 5 years now, and I’m especially privy to more of his day to day now that we’re both working from home approx. 30 feet from each other. To be clear, we’re not sharing trade secrets or confidential information, but I just hear him on the phone occasionally thru the office door while he’s on a call. It’s very different from my day to day.
Anon
Target is totally out of the stars above loungewear in my size. I see those recommended here a lot. Any other sources for soft cozy PJs you all like?
Anon
Do you have a Costco membership? I just got some super soft ones there for under $20.
Carmen Sandiego
My favorites are the Soma cool nights stuff. So soft, and not hot!
anon
Same here. It’s so soft! I don’t know what voodoo magic is in the fabric, but it does not pill like my Target stuff or make me sweat.
Anonia
Same, and wears really really well.
AnonMPH
Eberjey! Definitely a splurge, but super soft, super cute, so comfy. Doesn’t make me hot, and I always sleep hot. My husband made fun of me for buying three sets of summer pj’s at once from them but now frequently comments how cute they are and how much he likes them…don’t think he’s ever once noticed any pajamas before let alone commented on them.
DC haircut recommendations
Any recommendations for a socially distant haircut in the DMV (willing to drive)?
I just need a haircut not color or anything but have extremely thick hair (especially after going without a haircut for 6 months) which is more than the great clips type places can handle.
Happy with this level of risk for myself, not looking for comments on whether I should get a haircut.
Anonymous
There’s no such thing as a socially distant haircut. Any salon in DC is going to be requiring masks. Just go to one.
Anonymous
There’s no such thing as a “socially distant haircut.” What do you mean?
Cat
well presumably a salon that is limiting capacity, has people wait outside rather than together at reception, etc. do you really think the OP thinks she can get a haircut from 6′ apart from the stylist??
Anonymous
Yes, I do. Every salon is doing what you mentioned, no? Why the need to drive to a special one?
Cat
in my experience, some places claim to be adhering to guidelines but in practice aren’t really. Like, some restaurants say they are open for socially distant patio dining but you get there and it is a sh!tshow, right? So, the request for personal experience with compliant salons…
Anonymous
Well, stylists aren’t surgery technicians & it’s never going to be fully safe
Anon
I don’t know about in DC, but in California some salons are cutting hair outside. It’s not really “socially distant” because obviously your stylist gets within 6 feet of you, but it does seem much safer than an indoor haircut.
Anon
Wow, are hair salons still open there when schools aren’t?
Cat
this is an unnecessarily inflammatory response.
Anon
It’s not wrong though.
Anon
Uh this is comparing apples and orangutans. 25 squirmy germy kids in a classroom for 8 hours is not the same as a couple of stylists and clients in a room for 1-2 hours.
Anon
You’re right. It’s not the same. Education for all kids is an essential component of our society and one that should be absolutely prioritized. A haircut during a pandemic is frivolous. I’m not sorry for feeling this way and FWIW, I do not have children.
Anon
+1 and I do have children and did get a haircut, but the latter is entirely frivolous and I would have skipped it happily if it meant that schools could open safely, full time, for all students.
anon
Unfortunately skipping your haircut probably wouldn’t help the school situation. Bars, restaurants, churches, many-person events, etc. are a much bigger problem than a limited number of masked people being around each other for half an hour.
ANON
But of course it doesn’t mean that. So we should just keep haircutters closed becuase schools can’t open? That makes no sense.
Anon
Yes, we should keep hair salons closed so schools can open. We should also close bars, restaurants, Disney World, and so much else.
anonymous
I would agree with this if we were talking about bars. I don’t think hair salons need to be open, but managed properly (i.e. masks + fewer people in the place at one time), I don’t think they present the same outrageous risks as bars or schools.
anon
I don’t think it makes any sense at all to say that if hair salons were closed, schools could be open. I, too, would prioritize schools over hair salons, but keeping salons shut down does not mean schools can open. Salons that follow the rules have shown to be very low risk for transmission. That should count for something when we’re considering what to open vs. close. Bars, restaurants dinging rooms, arcades, and amusement parks (and maybe even gyms) should absolutely be closed because they are obvious transmission areas. But equating close salons to open schools is not a reasonable argument to make, and is unnecessarily inflammatory for the question asked by OP.
pugsnbourbon
+100 to your entire comment, anon @12:48.
American Girl
A haircut may be frivolous but it’s highly unlikely that that COVID is being spread through hair salons when people are masked, only 1-2 clients allowed in at a time, and no one is allowed to wait in the waiting area. (See, e.g. Missouri hair salon incident). Things can both frivolous and also unlikely to spread COVID. If we could re-open schools by shutting down everything else — such as bars and indoor dining — I’d be all for it but at this point, it’s not hair salons that’s driving COVID. It’s everything else.
anon
+1 I made the same point in a comment in mod. No need for the inflammatory comments with unreasonable arguments, people.
LaurenB
It’s nonsensical because a person getting a haircut is only there for an hour and it’s easy to maintain social distance between clients, whereas schoolchildren are there all day in a crowd. You’re welcome!
AFT
Not in DC, but if you’re not comfortable going into a salon, a neighborhood FB group helped me find a retired stylist who does mobile haircuts (masked and outside), and I had her cut my daughter’s hair (in case that’s something you could look for.
I was OK going into a salon with lots of precautions – temp/wellness screening, minimal waiting time inside, distance between stations, required masks for EVERYBODY, etc. I’m in IL, and those precautions were all state required when the salons opened, so (theoretically) every salon should be following those rules.
AFT
Adding – my salon is a corporate one with several locations – and I suspect organizations like that may be more likely to follow the regulations as there’s more at risk if they lose a license than if a solo operator or smalls hop does.
anon
My salon is tiny/a collection of solos and they are following all the rules. I actually love it because I get in and out faster :). (My stylist normally hates letting me leaving with wet hair.)
Korvapuusti
I’m in DC, and my hairstylist came and gave me a cut outside on my patio while we both wore masks. I washed my hair right before she arrived so it was wet. She worked at Bubbles Bethesda before it closed permanently due to COVID, and her contact inform (for Sara) is on their Yelp page.
anon
Hair by DC Stacy – she did wonders with my extremely thick hair. I moved away and have not been able to match her skill. She is now in a Sola Salon (Virginia) but I follow her on instagram and see she is doing extra cleaning, wearing masks, etc.
Anon
Scissors & Comb in Takoma Park had no waiting inside, hand sanitizer, masks, and temperature checks required for guests, contactless payment (you need to put your credit card on file; cash or Venmo for tips), Distanced service stations, and limited shampooing. They also disinfected chairs. I’ve been to Tiffany, and she’s great.
Anon
I love Blush salon in Del Ray – it’s mostly former Immortal Beloved stylists. The space is large, and the area it’s in is uncrowded. They’re taking all normal precautions, but the size of the space (and relative lack of people) made me feel more comfortable.
anon
Hair by DC Stacy! She’s amazing with thick hair. In Sola Salons, following strict CDC guidelines.
Anon
Went on my first in-person date since the pandemic started last night. I’m finding the COVID adds a whole new layer of dating weirdness. Examples: the guy initially suggested going to a museum for our date (they have recently reopened in our city). I suggested doing coffee and a walk instead. Then when we met I was masked, he was not. He had a scarf around his neck, and He would pull it up if we passed someone on the sidewalk, but otherwise he didn’t wear it. I told him I’d be wearing mine until we got to the park, and then I’d take it off, which is what I did, but later I wondered if I was being overly conservative about it. I felt awkward the whole time because it was this visible sign of the difference between our COVID approaches.
How are you all navigating this stuff on dates?
Anonymous
I had mine earlier this week (sadly haven’t heard from him). We met outside for drinks and both out our masks on when we left to walk home.
Ribena
People aren’t wearing masks outdoors here – except at protests – so on the one outdoor date I’ve been on we masked up to buy drinks and then took them off when we got outside.
Anon
I personally don’t feel the need to wear my mask when I’m outside walking around (except for things like protests, when people are tightly packed together), but I can understand why others do. I don’t think either approach is inherently wrong.
anon
+1
Anon
+1 – it really depends on the density of the area I’m in. If I’m walking my dog at 6 AM when I’m the only one around, definitely not wearing a mask, but if I’m walking through a more crowded farmers’ market, I’ll wear one. I think this is more of a “your comfort level” situation when you’re just walking around and people aren’t close together.
blueberries
I don’t think you were being conservative enough, unless you live in a place where the pandemic is super under control and no one is making great sacrifices (hospitals have plenty of room, schools are open, nursing home residents are permitted to leave their rooms, etc).
Everyone should be masked up when within 6 feet of anyone outside their household/extended household if podding up. If not for yourself, then so that kids can go to school and elders can go outside.
Anon
Wait, how was I not being conservative enough? I wore my mask the entire time except when sitting in a park at more than 6 feet apart from my date.
Cat
I think you were fine. Our local guidance is – wear a mask in public at all times indoors, and when outdoors when you can’t keep social distance. A lot of people have taken that to mean ‘wear a mask the minute I leave my house’ since we are downtown which – when you are only 1 of 2 people on an entire city block – seems like overkill to me. But I’d rather have that than the alternative of an anti-mask community so I won’t complain.
Cat
what I mean is – it sounds like you both are trying to reasonably follow local guidance and protect others, so that’s good for compatibility. Rereading I realize I came off a little whiny… I am glad my city is taking mask-wearing seriously even above and beyond the guidance.
If one of you was very different (like the guy hadn’t brought a mask at all) then I’d have a conversation about it.
Blueberries
I think you should have asked your date to wear his mask consistently too. If you did, and he didn’t want to, it would have been better to leave.
I see people who are comfortable not wearing their masks consistently similarly to people who don’t use protection consistently—they’re comfortable with riskier behaviors and are higher risk to you.
Anon
Well this is going to go on for at least a year, and as someone in my mid-30s, I’m not putting off dating, and I think I’m going to need to take a mask off at some point before a guy moves in…
asdf
+1 The pandemic calls for a lot of grace on all sides. Other people have different circumstances and tolerance for risk. Keep doing what makes you comfortable, but don’t dismiss people out of hand who do things differently. If they give you a hard time about it – they’re telling you who they are.
Anonymous
I need to start accepting that some work doesn’t get done on time. I have always been an over achiever and run my law practice with an eye to deadlines, sacrificing personal life for a self- imposed deadline (I told client I’d get it to them by tomorrow so I’ll stay up until midnight, etc.). I am in an incredibly busy practice area, insane weeks since March, and now that work is slowing down a tiny bit (almost down to normal) I am just… exhausted. I am not missing court deadlines, but my own – and then I beat myself up. Help?
anon
No idea, but I’m dealing with the same thing. I am tired and burned out.
Perfectionist
I’m the same, and life has improved since I started adopting the mantra: Never do today what you can do tomorrow.
Flats Only
Remember not to impose unreasonable deadlines on yourself! Practice not being Miss Perky Pleaser who over-promises. Think before you promise something to a client, vs. reflexively promising something that will be hard to deliver!
Vicky Austin
Underpromise and overdeliver. Give yourself more grace than you need in these personal deadlines, especially if you’re making promises to other people with them.
NYNY
If all of the challenging (or impossible) deadlines are self-imposed, then you need to train yourself to better estimate the time needed to complete work. In the beginning, maybe just take a beat when you’re giving a turnaround time and add a day to what you first come up with?
anon
How do you stay sane working in a toxic industry? I don’t mean a toxic workplace, exactly, but when your field is full of lots of talk, big promises that are rarely delivered upon, and leaders who are more about their own ego than making a real difference? I’m a mid-level manager in that type of environment, and if anything, working from home has made me realize just how fundamentally weird and messed up it is. I’ve spent most of my career in this field, and my cynicism is only growing. I don’t want to become a bitter, mid-career drone, but I can completely understand how people become that way. Unsure whether getting out is the answer, as I suspect many of these problems are rampant throughout the working world.
Anon
Sounds like Congress!
Paris recommendations
Any recommendations for restaurants in Paris with outdoor seating and reasonable social distancing (or alternatively, takeout)? I recently relocated (not from the US, for essential work) and would appreciate any recommendations! I’m in the 7th arrondissement if it matters, and prefer a place walkable or bikeable from the city. I wear KN95 masks and will take necessary precautions.
anon8
Check out the blog from David Lebovitz. Lot’s of Paris recommendations.
Sasha
I can’t speak to social distancing at any of these but 80% of restaurants in Paris have outdoor seating. Around the 6th 7th: Freddy’s, Sauvage, Le Comptor du Relais, Semilla, Josephine Chez Dumonet, Chez l’Ami Jean, Arnaud Nicolas, Tomy & Co
Anonymous
So can we start a new thread where self made ladies want to talk about their stories? Because the thread above (while not mine) has devolved into — pregnant ladies without enough maternity leave, daycare raising babies, and wealth makes me uncomfortable.
Anonymous
Yeah I consider myself in or close to this category. Immigrant parents from India, came with educations, dad working as an engineer so MC my whole childhood but my parents didn’t come here until the primary breadwinner was 44 and the kids were already 7 and 11, so it was starting over in middle age and they basically had 20 years to do it all — buy and pay off a house, save for retirement, and save something for college within like 7 years. So they paid for a good amount of college and law school for me though by no means all or even half. But between a combo of loans, work study and minimal grants, parents contribution, and luckily being a summer associate two times in law school, I graduated only 75k in debt combined after 2 ivy degrees (in 2005).
From there it was 9ish years in biglaw and while I always saved a ton and didn’t live the luxury NYC life most associates did, I will say I didn’t really discover investing until I was about a 6-7th year. I was lucky though that my parents INSISTED that I start saving for retirement day 1, so I did that but after 5-6 years of doing that I realized — hmm this is a nice chunk of money but I can’t touch until my 60s , why don’t I replicate it for myself in portfolios I can touch say in the next 5 or 10 years. So at 33 started the investment journey that is all consuming. By no means am I where yesterday’s posters are given that it’s been 7 years not 70+ years across multiple generations but that is definitely where my mind is at now, not law though I’m still working as a lawyer maybe for a few more years.
Anonymous
I think that wealth would make me very comfortable :)
Maudie Atkinson
I think I fit into this category.
I grew up in a very blue collar household. My parents were steadily employed, but we didn’t have annual vacations, never traveled internationally (my dad never had a passport; my mom has never used hers), and never went more than 2 states away for vacation when we did have one (never traveled by plane). I went to a public (but out of state) flagship university on a full academic scholarship, and I had a little extra scholarship money from outside sources, which I used pay my sorority dues and have a little walking around money. I studied abroad on another academic scholarship (Rotary Foundation).
After college, I worked in a public defender’s office. I was financially independent and lived VERY frugally, but basically could not save AT ALL. When my dad died, I socked my portion of his life insurance (about $30K) away and didn’t touch it. It never occurred to me I could have put it in better place (like a target date fund or something).
I then went to a (public, again out of state) law school, enrolling in 2009. As part of my scholarship package there, I got in-state tuition and then about 75% tuition on top of that for the first two years, 100% tuition after that. I also didn’t use the money from my dad then, to reduce the loans I needed; I should have, but having that safety net in a world where my dad was no longer living felt psychologically very necessary.
I am the first lawyer in my family, and I was not a very sophisticated consumer of legal education. I didn’t really understand the OCI process, clerking, etc., until one of 1L my professors pulled me aside early and kind of broke it down for me. I owe him a huge debt of gratitude. But I did very well, hence the increased scholarship. I landed two federal clerkships–one district court and then circuit court–and deferred my offers at the two firms where I summered.
I married my ex-husband in my third year of law school and lived with him throughout law school, which did keep my living costs lower. We bought a house the year we married in a very low cost of living area, using the money my dad left me as the down payment. While I was clerking, we lived off his (military) salary, and his base housing allowance more than covered our mortgage. We used my clerk salary to pay our student loans (his were significantly more than mine) aggressively in that time, but (stupidly) I wasn’t doing much retirement saving.
After two years clerking, my ex left the military, and I accepted my job at my current firm. We kept our other house and used it as an income-generating rental property. We bought another house to live in, and VA financing meant we could buy a lot of house for very little down. Shortly thereafter, he was in BigLaw, and I’m in a boutique firm but with BigLaw salary and bonus scale, so we had a high combined HHI. We continued to pay down loans and did so more aggressively. I also began maxing out my 401K plus making backdoor Roth contribution every year, as was he. I paid off my loans in fewer than 2 years in practice (fewer than 4 total), putting every bit of bonus money, etc., toward them.
Then my ex left when I was a fourth year associate (no credit for clerkship years), and the divorce was expensive to me. I kept my 401K and IRA and all the equity in the house we lived in but, in exchange, gave up the equity in the rental property and basically every bit of liquid assets we had. He emptied our joint checking and savings before we even filed; I then opened my own accounts, had my next paycheck go there, and that was the sum total of the cash I had.
Fortunately, I continued to max out my 401K and do a backdoor Roth, but I doubled down on savings because the lack of emergency fund terrified me. I built up about a $50K emergency fund in less than a year while never missing a retirement contribution and suddenly carrying the mortgage and the rest of previously joint household expenses alone. Almost two years out, I’ve sold my old house and bought a new one with my fiance. I’m not yet in a positive net worth place, but my (our) only debt is mortgage debt.
Relative to the household I grew up in, I’m much better off. I don’t have anywhere near the kind of wealth people spoke about yesterday, but it’s definitely an upward trajectory. My income alone is almost 3 times what my parents made together. The house I just bought is worth about 9x what my parents’ house is (but a lot of that has to do with COL and where they are located).
The best part is what I can DO with that money: I fund 529s for my two nieces and expect that I will have to help my mom financially in the future and therefore plan for that. I make on-going, planned charitable contributions amounting to a little more than 5% of my annual income, between my church and other causes. Among other things, I fund a study abroad scholarship at my undergrad for students studying in countries classified as “lower middle” or “low” income according to the World Bank GDP per capital index. I fell in love with snow skiing–something I had never done until my late 20s–and travel the world to do it (made it to Japan in January before the world shut down). I still drive a paid-off Toyota. I always shop sales–for everything. I have a one-in-one-out policy for clothes and accessories. I eat out about once a week. I don’t, though, clean my own house, and that took some getting used to; I had to persuade myself that it didn’t make any sense from a time value of money perspective.
It’s wild for me to think about how different my (future) children’s upbringing will be from mine, in terms of access to resources, etc. I don’t, though, aspire to the kind of generational wealth folks talked about yesterday. Of course, it would be nice to never EVER worry about money, but I never set out to become wealthy. Even my relative wealth now makes me pretty uncomfortable when I’m around my family or friends from home. FWIW, I also feel widely out of place when I’m with folks whose lives are like mine now but who also grew up in that position. I feel like I slipped into some party I actually wasn’t invited to and at any moment they’re going to ask me to leave.
Anon
+1 to your last two sentences!
Abby
This is an amazing financial story. I am very impressed with you!
Carrie
You are a rock star. I can relate to much of what you post.
Well done. Don’t forget to enjoy your life.
Maudie Atkinson
I just submitted a response to this, as I think I fit this category, but it’s awaiting moderation. And holy cow it was long, and I’m now mortified that I wrote such a novel.
Anon
I posted a little yesterday. Rural poor, family always scrambling to make the bills. Almost lost the house a number of times.
I went to college on full financial aid. My financial aid forms said my parents would have to pay $500 of my room and board per year. My mom sighed and said she didn’t know how they could come up with that. I went to college on faith and early on saw a doorway with a sign that said Bursar’s office. I didn’t really know what a bursar was but I walked in and told them my dad had cancer (he did, and he died a few years later) and I would need the $500 covered by financial aid. They nice lady at the desk gave me a hug and boom, I got another $1000 in Pell grant.
My dad had always told us we needed to go to college and that we needed to major in something useful. He was extremely disdainful of english and psychology majors (sorry for those of you who were) so that was just never a choice for me, even though I had always done best in English classes in high school.
So fortunately I fell in love with calculus, which I didn’t take until college, and I decided to major in math.
Everyone in the math department kept telling me there were SO many jobs for math majors but I didn’t find that to be true. I finally ended up teaching math for a year, then stumbling into an entry level job in the actuarial field. Now I’m a credentialed actuary (getting your fellowship is more work than college) and I’ve done really well in the career. It helps that I’m a good communicator. Many actuaries don’t consider that necessary and focus only on the technical aspects of the job.
My kids have never had to worry about financial stability, even though I freak out sometimes as the breadwinner, because I remember how it was growing up and I don’t want to burden them with that. On the other hand, they don’t get everything they want, and we are not the kind of wealthy family talked about yesterday who vacations in Europe and takes several ski trips a year. We have been to Europe once as a family. My kids are now in college and late high school. They do not have to apply for financial aid.
I’m mid fifties now and able to slow down because I want to, but I was go to go for my entire career and at the peak was VP level (true VP, not a marketing title) of a F 50 company.
Anon
I don’t know if I’m truly “self made” as my parents were solidly upper middle class, but I’ll play along because my parents were definitely self-made and I’d like to think I’ve made the most of the advantages they gave me to build on them. Both of my parents grew up working class (dad) or downright poor (mom) and were able to put themselves through college and subsequent grad school (with lots of loans, and college was a lot cheaper back then) and secure solidly upper middle class jobs in a LCOL city with decent schools. While they didn’t make anything near what a lot of the ladies on this board made, they, because of the LCOL city, were able to put me through private, more competitive schools (again, these are much cheaper than a lot of the east coast private schools I see now) and support me. They weren’t really able to save for college (or chose not to, out of a misguided notion that I could work/take out small loans like they had and graduate semi-debt-free), but I was good enough and worked hard enough in school to secure a full ride to a major public flagship school, worked my butt off taking 26+ credits a semester and graduated quickly, and got a job in tech at 20. They’ll be able to retire comfortably, but likely won’t pass on much if any money when they pass away especially if they have substantial care expenses, but I’m not naive a the advantages they gave me growing up.
I’m not 33 and own a home and two rental properties in a VHCOL area, have substantial retirement savings and investments outside the real estate and have a net worth of ~$3.8m and growing. I’ll have enough money to provide the lifestyle for my children that I want them to have (and ideally my struggle will be teaching them the value of money and humility – important, but a better problem to have than many) and live very comfortably in the VHCOL area I live in for the rest of my life while continuing to grow my wealth. I know that a lot of that was through advantages provided by my parents, but continuing to move up was due to that + a combination of savvy choices, a lot of hard work, and of course, some luck. A lot of it came down to choosing a field I was good at but didn’t particularly love (Computer Science) and pursuing the money in that field. That and picking the lower ranked public school with the full ride over the top tier school where I would have been saddled with debt afterward and less able to immediately save money and invest my considerable salary right after school.
Somewhat self-made
I sort of fit in here.
I was raised by stereotypically entitled boomer parents. They had secure middle class jobs but they were awful with money. Their money anxiety was palpable my entire childhood. I grew up thinking they just didn’t make enough but now I realize they just frittered it away on all the wrong things. They bought a 5,000sf house in a super cheap-o area and even that plus the 3 car garage wasn’t big enough to store all their junk. They still own 3 boats, none of which ever fit into said garage.
My fear of ending up as financially insecure as my parents was motivating. I am approaching 40 and I have scrimped and saved my entire life. Nobody taught me how to invest but I did make a savvy property purchase or two that gave me a leg up in my 20s. Finally in my 30s I started buying stocks and started a 401k. My net worth is now ~$3M. I work in a very male-dominated industry and face a lot of hostility every day. Work consumes my life, but I am ok with it because I am optimistic that I can retire in my mid-40s, moving to a cheap region possibly not in the U.S. I would like to become a full-time volunteer in some capacity if/when I retire. There is zero doubt in my mind that I would have been managed out of my career if I had dared to try having a family or even a partner.
The wrinkle in my retirement plan is that my parents are mid-70s and about 50% financially dependent on me. They live in a property that I purchased to house them. Their own money has been eaten or earmarked for serious medical expenses. I am oddly grateful that they were so dysfunctional because here I am in a pretty secure situation as a result…if lonely.
Anon
I have been working since the 6th grade (doing random jobs for neighbors, tutoring, babysitting and fast food) to support myself and also to support my family. I went to a good college for my B.S. and work as an engineer. Grad school wasn’t something I could consider because I needed and income to continue to support my family.
During HS, college and post college, I worked to support myself, pay for groceries and rent for my family. Both of my parents passed away in my late 20’s, right before two siblings headed to college. They were able to get good amount of financial support but I had to cover their expenses like rent in the summer, coming home (my home is their home-home), medical expenses, etc. I have not been able to accumulate much wealth because of the continuous expenses I have had outside of putting in enough money to get the maximum match by my company for my 401K and then maximizing contribution when I was able to. I attempted to save cash over time but it was used up for big expenses related to medical bills and funerals for my family so every little bit I saved by being frugal got used up by big expenses. I am now in my mid 30’s and my siblings are now out of college. I am finally able to build up my savings. I don’t have expensive taste or expensive hobbies so it is going pretty well.
I am happy I was able to support my family, it was my choice to support them but I am also jealous of the people who only had themselves to support because I have spend so much money over the past 20+ years that I would have otherwise invested to build up my wealth. My net worth now is probably around $600-700k, I am sure it would be way higher if I could have saved the $20-$25K annually over the past 20 yrs.
Anon
Very inspiring…
Monday
I am trying to think of anything to look forward to about this fall/winter. Really struggling. Anyone have something?
Anonymous
Cozy sweaters! Tea! Fall colours!
Anon
On this note: drop your fav cotton sweaters here. Indoors for me means skipping wool which I never like anyway!
Anon
I just bought a wonderful cotton cardigan, very loose and cozy, from Muji. I was in the store and it was on super sale, not sure if it’s available online. I’ve never bought clothes from there before and I’m thrilled with it.
anonshmanon
I have a bunch of sweatshirts and zipper hoodies from teepublic. They are super warm and have an extra fluffy inside layer. Plus I like the many design options.
pugsnbourbon
I know it gets a bad rap around here, but I have two 100% cotton sweaters from LOFT that have held up extremely well for a couple years.
I’ve got my eye on an LL Bean “coastal cotton” sweater, but I am waiting until my birthday next month.
Anon
Fall movies, chilly air walks, coziness with my husband and cat, ski season (a girl can dream), delicious food, foliage…
Betsy
Ooh, talk to me about fall movies! I have lots of winter/holiday movies that I look forward to, and summer ones, but I can’t think of any specific fall movies!
Anon
Hocus Pocus is my number one! Harry Potter is also great – they’re not specifically fall-focused, but the castle setting looks so beautiful as the school year progresses.
PNW
When Harry Met Sally is in my head as a Fall movie, even though it takes place throughout the seasons. But it makes NYC in autumn look so beautiful, that’s the image that stays in my head.
And if anyone wants to talk Halloween appropriate movies, I can go on and on :)
Marie
Agree on When Harry Met Sally being a fall movie and a favorite of mine! When I think of that movie, I picture them strolling with autumn leaves in the background, wearing warmer weather clothes like sweaters and turtlenecks, and going to museums. And now I want to watch WHMS. :)
Anonymous
Fall foliage, holiday decor, apple cider/hot chocolate, cheesy holiday movies
anonshmanon
Once a week I wonder what’s the earliest I can put up the tree!
Anonymous
The ability to run outside without dying of heat exhaustion (it was 91 degrees on my 4 AM run this morning and of course, don’t forget the humidity). I really miss the gym…
Anonymous
Also save some movies to your DVR for a snowy day, look for season start times for your favorite shows or new releases
Anon
I’m excited to do all the cozy things indoors, like reading with cups of tea, puzzles and scrabble after dinner. I’m also looking forward to cooking and baking, which I haven’t done much of due to the heat, and running outdoors. In the early fall, I’m going to place an online order for a bunch of different herbal teas and also some nice scented candles. I also have some great bath stuff sitting around waiting for me.
I booked a rural cabin weekend (in my state) for a fall weekend to see the leaves and go hiking. It’s just two nights, so I plan to bring my own food and supplies, so I won’t expose the locals to my germs, and stay on the property and on hiking trails.
Abby
In the summer I try to minimize the use of my stove/oven as much as possible, but I’m looking forward to cooking more experimental dishes! Also making candles.
For the winter, usually I go to work when it’s still dark and leave when it’s dark, and this year if I’m still WFH I can take a walk in the middle of the day to get some sunlight! This is the best silver lining I can think of so far.
Betsy
I was just thinking about how much I’m looking forward to fall this year! Winter will be hard, obviously, but I am finding that the one upside of being home bound is getting to enjoy the seasons a lot more. I am looking forward to planting a messed up amount of mums in my garden, drinking hot coffee and knitting on the patio, foliage, sitting around a fire, fall walks, baking up a pumpkin and apple storm, and getting a ton of yummy fall scented candles.
anon
“A messed up amount of mums.” You are my people.
Vicky Austin
Soup! Tea! Turning on the oven for baking projects! Spending the day reading on the couch and not feeling like I should be outside enjoying our brief (upper Midwest) summer! Snuggling in sentimental blankets!
Is it Friday yet?
Skiing? If the resorts don’t open I’ll buy a skinning set up – I’m hoping to at least get some backcountry action in… but even that may be questionable. If I can’t ski, maybe it’ll be a mild enough winter to ride horses and rock climb for most of it… But yeah, really dreading being stuck indoors all the time again. :/
Otherwise, Trump leaving office so that we get some competent leadership and a light at the end of the tunnel?
Anon
You and I are both hoping for skiing and riding. What are your thoughts on driving to a resort 2 hours away that doesn’t have gondolas or major crowds? I’d completely avoid going inside the lodge for any reason, including the bathroom. I have a backcountry set-up, but no one to go with in my new state and I need to refresh my avy knowledge anyway.
Anonymous
So, a 2 hr drive each way … and no bathroom? I guess I don’t want to know how you’re going to relieve yourself.
Anon
Outside, obviously. It’s not a big deal when you’re outdoorsy. That’s how I managed to do a completely socially-distanced backpacking trip.
pugsnbourbon
Dude I’ve got a super-tiny bladder and even I can usually make it for 2 hours. I go easy on the coffee.
Also peeing outside is NBD unless you’re mooning a schoolyard full of children.
Is it Friday yet?
Late reply, but my impression is that chairlifts are relatively low risk since you’re bundled up and there’s plenty of airflow. Lift line management is going to be important though, I think. I also have no qualms about peeing in the woods – but will miss my apres beers.
Anon
We just bought an awesome propane fire pit that someone here recommended last week (thank you!!) so I’m looking forward to outdoor socially distanced gatherings with friends around the fire once it gets chillier.
I love summer, but we’ve had such a heat wave that I’m looking forward to cooler weather for once.
Doing puzzles in front of the fireplace.
Cold weather meals (coq au vin, beef bourginon, cassoulet).
Tea/Coffee
– being able to work outside without dying of heatstroke or being eaten alive by mosquitoes
– chilly nights by the firepit > boiling hot afternoons
– port. In my mind this is a cold weather drink
– we are (clearly) not doing thanksgiving with family this year. So we will celebrate with our neighbor-pod. We are all already looking forward to this.
– when it gets darker earlier, the kids fight bedtime less
Senior Attorney
We are doing a couple of big house projects that we haven’t gotten around to previously (had’t prioritized them because we wanted to travel). The most fun thing is we are doing our version of this stunning bathroom: https://studiodiy.com/the-mindwelling-our-master-bathroom-reveal/
I know it’s not everybody’s taste but I’m psyched.
Anon
Wow, that’s not my taste at all, but it’s still fun and great execution of someone else’s taste (if that makes sense).
Anonymous
Do you have one of those fabulous Spanish style LA houses? If so, this will be gorgeous. I love the tile.
Anon
Do you have one of those fabulous Spanish style LA houses? If so, this will be gorgeous. I love the tile.
Lobby-est
Love that color!
Gail the Goldfish
Heat indexes below 100.
CountC
Amen.
Gail the Goldfish
Also Halloween. Trick or treating may get cancelled, but Halloween decorations are not.
Anonymous
November 4.
Anonymous
We may not know who’s won the election for weeks after election day, even if there is no mischief – with the expected demand for mail-in for the first time. We need to start prepping ourselves for that.
Monday
Really? That’s one of my biggest dreads. I don’t think we will have results for weeks after the election, and I predict chaos and lots of threats from you-know-who.
Senior Attorney
We’ve been through it before (Bush v. Gore) and survived.
But I am still hopeful that it will be a giant blue blowout.
Anon
Lol love it Yessssss
Anon
Random quick post, but just wanted to say thank you to whoever recommended the LL Bean Pima T-shirts. They fit me perfectly and feel like such great quality compared to the other T-shirts I’ve tried in recent years. It’s been well worth it!
NY CPA
Yay! That was me, maybe along with others. So glad you like them. They really are just great quality and a goot fit (not too tight, not too boxy).
Google Fi phones
Has anyone used Google Fi phones from abroad and can share their experience on how good the coverage / data speed was?
Anon
In the Before Times, it was awesome. We were really heavy international traveler (~12 internationals/year) and we never had issues. You land, turn on your phone, and worse-case scenario it would take a few minutes, but then you were off and running. We stuck with data only, no phone calls.
Patricia Gardiner
We used my husband’s phone on Google Fi while in Iceland 2.5 years ago, worked well for calls and navigation on maps. Coverage was great in cities/towns, there were some more rural road stretches without coverage.
BabyAssociate
Me! I have used in it in 20 countries over 4 continents in the past 3-4 years and it has been nearly flawless. Can’t recommend it enough.
ALX emily
I’ve used mine in several countries (Japan, Mexico, Costa Rica, Austria, Czech Republic that I can think of) and coverage seemed fine/as expected in all of them. Speed was often more around 3G than LTE but I think a lot of that has to do with just the local network speeds and some of those trips were a few years ago so everything might be better now.
anon
It was great. Every time I landed in a foreign country my phone would say “welcome to (insert country)! you’re connected and ready to go” and I didn’t have to do anything extra like get an international plan or switch sim cards. Fi isn’t available in my home country but it’s been available in literally all the other countries I visited. Great for searching up places and getting directions while out and about.
Layoff Survivor Guilt
It’s been a super difficult week at my company. Tons of layoffs and my particular business division has been impacted heavily. There’s a 2 month lag between notice and last day so the company is letting people handle how they notify colleagues on their own which means it’s like a drip drip drip of bad news. I feel so bad for people impacted. (I am safe) I am just really sad today. Almost uncontrollably so. This is the first time I’ve ever been at a company with layoffs. I knew it would be hard but didn’t think it would affect me this much. I want to be supportive and caring for those who choose to share their news with me. Any advise?
Coach Laura
It is hard. In one three year period, I survived three 10% layoffs and one 20%.
If you’re safe from layoff and know someone who has been RIF’d, reach out and offer introductions to your contacts at other companies, especially contacts who are hiring managers. Share your personal email. Otherwise, unless they bring it up or you are very close, keep your focus on business.
Anon
It was a little over 30 years ago (I’m 58 now), and I still remember the day that a much-loved manager was laid off. It was the first time I had dealt with layoffs in my workplace. It was awful.
Honestly, the ick of layoff day doesn’t get a lot easier with subsequent layoffs. I hate those days. And some of the worst days of my life have been the days where I laid off people who were simply in the wrong place at the wrong time, and I had no power to prevent those actions from happening.
Don’t hesitate to reach out via LinkedIn to connect with the former colleagues who were laid off, or to call them in a few weeks (or now). Give yourself lots of permission to be sad right now. I think it’s normal and healthy.
Anon
Someone who DH supervises just found out his wife is having an affair. This came out yesterday and they have a huge deadline tomorrow but DH told him to take the rest of the week and to let him know if he needs more time next week. They are kind of colleagues/friends. What would you want from your supervisor in this scenario?
Anon
I think what your husband has done is great. I’m not sure I’d want more involvement than that from my boss, tbh.
Vicky Austin
+1
Anon
+1
anon
+1
Anonymous
I’m a little confused about your question. If I had a personal crisis then, yes, I would expect to be able to take a personal day or two. Even if it means others have to work harder in the short term. That’s kind of the nature of working on a team.
Also, if the deadline is tomorrow, then most of the work should be done by now. Being crunched at the last minute is how mistakes are made. If DH is in a bad spot because one team member bowed out the day before the deadline, then that seems like more of a project management issue on his part than a problem with that employee.
Anonymous
I think he’s done plenty already.
Anon
It sounds like your DH is a really caring boss, but honestly, giving the rest of the week plus more time next week if needed feels a little off for some reason. I’m not sure why.
Anonymous
Would he give that time off to someone he wasn’t personal friends with and sympathetic to? Do I get that time off when my nanny quits? Does Susie get it when her dog and only living companion dies?
Anon
Yeah, from the sounds of it if OP’s husband was your boss you probably would.
Anon
The rest of the week is two days. I don’t think it’s that big of a deal.
OP
DH only supervises like two people, one person who is 2 levels below DH’s own position(the one referenced in this post) and someone below that person. Their team is currently missing a person. He is part of a very small team within a much larger company. The company keeps teams very lean so it’s not like he is showing favoritism to this one person out of a team of 20. Last year my mom passed away at the end of a vacation so DH had to take an extra consecutive week off so we could fly back to my parents house with our two toddlers and his bosses were pretty understanding (granted it was a slow time and DH had just gotten promoted, but still)
Senior Attorney
Wow I would be mortified and I would want my boss to mind his own business. But plainly I am an outlier.
Anonymous
Co-sign.
Been There
That’s fair, but he apparently wanted the boss to know for some reason, whether because he wanted a few days off or because he wouldn’t be available to help with the project closing tomorrow. Now that the boss has the information, I think he needs to do something with it, and offering some time off without asking any further questions seems like a good compromise.
Anon
But would you tell your boss about the affair? I think if they’re close enough for the employee to tell the boss, then anything the boss does in times of time off, etc. is much more kind than embarrassing. A friend was in this employee’s shoes and was super grateful that his boss was so understanding and cut him some slack at work.
Been There
I’ve been the employee in this situation before. I had to tell my boss because of some external factors that only apply to me, but he told me to take some time off (in my case it was 10 days, but I understand that was incredibly generous, and I used a lot of that time to move out). And yes, that workplace would encourage you to take time if you had another personal crisis come up, such as a pet dying or a nanny suddenly quitting or a relative dying. The grace they showed me during that time period was so invaluable. I don’t think my boss told others what happened, but I do know he told them I was going through a difficult personal situation, and then later that I was going through a divorce. So, basically, your husband is doing the right thing and there’s really nothing more he can do, other than show some grace once employee is back at work. I’m not saying to treat him with kid gloves, but it was nice that I didn’t come back and immediately get thrown right back into some crazy high stress situation as if I weren’t going through something major. The other thing was that I appreciated people I could just be normal with. I didn’t want people constantly saying, “How ARE you…..?” so I could pretend like it wasn’t happening, at least for a little while.
Anon
I am a senior M&A associate in big law. Single, no kids, no mortgage. In the final stages of burn out where I’m starting to underperform and not really care. :/ this is unusual for me as my reviews have been stellar the last couple of years (including this year, piggybacking off the last year of work I imagine as it is definitely not reflective of current last few months of work product). I want to take a 6+ month sabbatical. Definitely don’t want to burn bridges at my current employer but not looking to come back to law firm life. Anyone successfully done this as a lawyer? I do want to keep in house options open, though I’m not totally sold on in-house. I’m thinking of moving abroad and working on business level fluency of a language I conversationally speak and then coming back to the states. I also plan to eventually pick up contract legal work (though not anytime soon since I am really feeling burned out), mostly to be “doing something” and not have a resume gap. Any thoughts, cautions, good stories/bad stories are welcome. I am risk adverse, have been the good hard worker for years, so this feels like a big scary change for me.
anon
No advice, but god I wish I could do this.
TheElms
So my firm let a senior litigation associate do this. The associate admitted they were done, didn’t want to be in private practice anymore but didn’t know what they wanted to do. The firm gave her a 6 month leave of absence and kept paying her health insurance and let her stay on the website. If you are done, I would just ask.
Anon
Thank you for the data point!
Anon
I was at Latham SV a million years ago. We had a kick-ass senior M&A associate (she now heads M&A at another Valley firm) and she billed something stupid, like, 2000 hours, by September. She took two months off to travel and work at an orphanage in Africa. I really admired her for doing it. She knew her worth, knew she was a good associate, and knew she was on partner track. In order to keep your healthcare, I would go on sabbatical, and then come back for a month or two, and then leave.
I do think the legal job market is going to be VERY rough in six months, and things could change re your status at a firm. If you’re in the Bay Area, the in house market is very robust. In general, out here in techland, M&A associates do have a hard time getting hired in house if they are “too M&A” unless it’s an M&A-centric role (serial acquiror, PE shop, etc.).
Anon
Thanks for the thoughts!! That is not a bad thought regarding coming back for a month or two. I agree the legal market is going to be really rough and my position may have changed if I chose to stay. I guess I’m not too concerned about this (which leads me to think that I’m pretty much done with law in addition to law firm life!)
Anon
Probably stating the obvious, but can you actually move abroad right now? My understanding is that Americans can’t go to most countries unless you have citizenship or a family member there.
Anon
This particular country does allow Americans to move in. I also have family there.
Outdoor chairs
Recs for other brands to look at for outdoor chairs? I’ve gone through the usual suspects: West Elm, C&B, Pottery Barn, Room and Board. I like the idea/look of Loll furniture but they are a bit on the bulky side. I also want to be able to sit in them before buying because it will basically be an outdoor reading chari. My favorite so far has been the West Elm Huron, but again, need to go try it somewhere in person before buying.
Carmen Sandiego
I don’t know where you draw the line on too bulky, but we have some of the Martha Stewart Charlottetown wicker collection. We purchased it in 2012 and keep it on our outdoor, covered patio in hot, sticky NOLA, and the wicker is still pristine. (The cushions are due for replacing though.) They are wide and deep, so I find them comfortable to lounge in for reading or wine drinking. They are sold at Home Depot and I think Lowe’s, so you could probably check it out before buying.
CHL
I bought a sectional sofa and adirondack chairs from Yardbird and I really like them. Also great customer service but I think the only place you can try them is Minneapolis.
Pink
Thank you to the posters who recommended: 1) TNF Athenas and 2) Oiselle running shorts. The Athenas are the gold standard puttering around shorts; roomy (would almost say they run big but that could just be Stockholm syndrome from years of Lulu’s vanity sizing), drawstring elastic waist, not lined, but come with slit pockets AND a zipper pocket! Plus they’re about $20, so that’s hard to beat. From Oiselle I got Roga’s, long Rogas and banana split Rogas. They all fit TTS (and I have a bit of a booty). I should have heeded reviews: I do not like the Rogas and will send them back. The long Rogas are perfect for lifting. Banana split Rogas are more for running and are pretty revealing for puttering around but DH liked them so I’m keeping them. Hopefully this helps anyone else who is looking.
Anonymous
I do not find Lulu to engage in vanity sizing at all. If anything, it’s the opposite–I wear a 0-2 in most other brands, including Athleta, and a 4-6 in LLL.
OP
You’re right – I had it backward. Anyway, I found the Athenas to run bigger than what I’m accustomed to for workout shorts.
Anon
I think Lulu tends to have the opposite of vanity sizing on the lower end of the range, but slight vanity sizing on the upper. I was a solid 12 in clothes and wore an 8-10 in Lulu. I’ve lost about 40 pounds and am now a solid 6 in clothes and a solid 6 in Lulu. Friends who are smaller (like a 0-2) take a 2-4 consistently.
Anon
Shampoo recs?
I finally colored my hair at home. It was getting kind of nuts. I’ve never done all over dye but highlights to blend the grays, and the highlights were last done in January.
I took the Madison reed quiz at home and I’m pretty pleased with the color. It’s very close to my natural color and the highlights are better blended in / colored now.
I loved the color protectant shampoo and conditioner samples that came with the kit. But it’s $40 to buy the full bottles and I have just never spent that much on shampoo. Can anyone who has tried the Madison reed shampoo and conditioner recommend a drugstore or grocery store dupe?
Anon
Have not tried Madison Reed but highly recommend the giant bottles of Kirkland moisture shampoo and conditioner from Costco.
Flats Only
I read an article that said the reason hair-color-kit shampoo/conditioner was so nice was the inclusion of bisaminopropyl dimethicone. Pantene Smooth and Sleek has that same ingredient, and I find it’s a wonderful day-to-day dupe for the heavy duty stuff that comes with the color kit.
anon
Recs for kitchen rugs that won’t break the bank? The hardwood floor underneath our table has gotten very scratched. (We put protective caps on the chairs that haven’t done much. Maybe they weren’t the right kind?) We aren’t ready to refinish the floors yet, for a variety of reasons, so I thought a rug might work to protect the floor and hide the scratches. We have kids but they’re a bit older, so not quite as many liquidy messes are happening. Or am I kidding myself to think this is a good idea?
CB
Indoor/outdoor rug from Frontgate
anon
Do you send a LinkedIn message to HR managers after you’ve applied to jobs? I’ve applied to dozens of jobs in the past few months and heard back from two of them, both rejections. I know it’s a bad market but this is really getting absurd. Would messaging the HR person (or whoever is listed in the job posting) help or hurt?
Anon
I personally don’t see how it could help. You applied for the job, they know you’re interested. I don’t see what you could say to the HR manager in a LinkedIn message that wouldn’t seem out of touch with hiring practices.
PNW
I recommend Ask A Manager for all aspects of job hunting, especially if you’re not getting responses. I’ve found her advice to be spot on.
sharing is caring
I have another one of those send a free bag deals from Ipsy, and I’ve already sent it to everyone I know from prior offers, so if any of you want it, I am happy to send it to you. I swear I don’t work for them – honestly I should probably just cancel my subscription because who needs makeup nowadays, but I like getting stuff in the mail, ha. Post a burner here if you’re interested.
PS – If anyone has any other fun subscriptiony type things to recommend, I’m all ears!
Kml
Dermstore has a monthly box – high end skin care and makeup. $25 per month to subscribe monthly or $35 to buy ala carte when the box interests you.
Anonymous
Interested. [email protected]
Thanks for the offer.
Anonymous
[email protected]