This post may contain affiliate links and Corporette® may earn commissions for purchases made through links in this post. As an Amazon Associate, I earn from qualifying purchases.
Reader E has a question about bad habits at the office, from nail biting, cuticle picking, hair twirling, and more…I must not be the only nail biter/ cuticle picker. What do all the over-eaters, hair twirlers, nail-biters do? I think it's incredibly unprofessional to be nibbling at my hands all day….Great question, E! I think there are two parts to this question: defining what is a “bad habit” for office purposes, and then fixing it. There are a lot of problem-specific fixes (for example, for nail biting there are clear nail polishes designed to make your nails taste bad). (Pictured: Untitled, originally uploaded to Flickr by Rachel A.K..) But for my $.02, these are my two thoughts re: bad habits at the office: a) What is a bad habit, as far as office behavior goes? One way to look at it is: it's a personal trait that people notice and remember about you — so much that it may overshadow your achievements (as in, “Oh, is she the nail biter? Brunette? Clerked for Alito?”). For example: gum snapping, nail biting, hair twirling. Another way to look at it is: it's a personal habit that derails your work in some way. For example: drug/alcohol use, online addiction (whether it's to chat boards, sample sale sites, or more), et cetera. Overeating, mentioned by reader E, is certainly a bad habit, but it would probably venture more into OCD territory before it affected your work habits. b) How do you overcome a bad habit? The first step is recognizing that it's a bad habit. A lot of gum-snappers out there may not realize that people in the office know them by that habit. Similarly, years ago I spent a month or so absolutely obsessed about an online celebrity site that probably had 200-300 posts a day — I had to stop that one cold turkey. (I've also had to go cold turkey on sites that had 30+ posts a day too — Gawker, Jezebel, I'm looking at you! — and it's one of the big reasons that I don't ever see this blog having more than 3-5 posts a day.) After that, I think that you can Google your problem and find those problem-specific solutions. Readers, what do you think are YOUR personal bad habits (and what have you done to fix them)? What bad habits upset you about your coworkers? Does your definition of “bad habit” differ from mine in the office context? Did you have any rude awakening to your bad habit?
fresh jd
I hate it when people crack their knuckles or talk too loud on their phones (on the subway, street or office)! Rant over.
fresh jd
…and when they reek of smoke from their cigarette breaks!
Ms. Basil E. Frankweiler
I crack my knuckles, but it hurts so much when I don’t that I don’t think I could ever stop.
Eponine
Same.
kellyn
Oh, here too. Arthritis sometimes is allieviated by this. But I totally do it secretly!
Anon
Agreed. I can’t stand the noise from knuckle cracking.
Miriam
I hate people’s cell phones especially when they don’t answer it and don’t turn the ring off.
Amelia
I’m a hair toucher. Not necessarily twirling, but playing with it in some form or another. My solution is that I keep it up for important meetings.
K
Me too. I’ve made a conscious effort to stop doing it while in meetings, but when I’m really focused on something, I find my hand inevitably ends up in my hair.
I’ve found that styles that require lots of hairspray (ie – curling my naturally stick straight hair or a polished, sleek ponytail) mean I can’t really touch my hair, so no playing or twirling. It’s a really unconscious thing for me though, so I don’t know if it will ever 100% stop, despite my best efforts.
Diana Barry
I have 2 – one is that I’m not friendly enough (I’m introverted and have to remember to smile) – and the other is that I spend too much time online. I developed this habit when I didn’t have enough work, and sadly it has stuck. :(
Amelia
Oh me too! Those are mine.
Scully
I am a horrible knuckle- and neck- cracker. I can’t wear bracelets or rings either because I fiddle with them all day.
TX Attny
I’m looking at my yucky fingers right now. When I’m nervous, I tend to bite and pick my cuticles even until they bleed a little. What can I do to stop it?? It’s a disgusting habit. Help, Corporettes!
spacegeek
I do this too. Except it is more when I’m bored in meetings.
EC
I do this when I’m really stressed, but decided I had to stop before my wedding (which was super stressful). I used strong moisturizer (Aquaphor several times in the morning, Aveeno/Lubriderm/Cetaphil later in the day) and set reminders to apply it even when I didn’t feel I needed it. That and practicing some deep breathing when I felt the need to pick saved me…and after a few months, I didn’t really have cuticles to pick anymore.
I also chewed a lot of gum and sucked on Life Savers (both of which are their own bad habits, but I always spit out the gum/candy before leaving my office). If you’ve got something in your mouth, you’re not going to chew on your fingers.
Someone on an earlier post also recommended keeping a fingernail clipper with you at all times, so when you have a cuticle, you can just clip it off instead of obsessively chewing on it. I keep meaning to do that, but haven’t yet. I did make it a point to clip off any dry/hard cuticles whenever I cut my fingernails. That seemed to help.
Lindsey
Also guilty… keeping a nail file at my desk helps to a degree, as does finding a coworker friend who promises to mock you for your bad habit. I’ve recently added the shellac nail polish to my arsenal… it supposedly lasts 3 weeks, so that would eliminate some of my nail biting/messing. The cuticles are still kind of a disaster, though.
Jen
I have to say that I find it really disgusting when someone cuts or files her nails in the office, though–so I would advise that if you have to do this, do it in private, quickly, and with the door closed, if possible.
another anon
Me too. I had to close the door to my office the other day because I could hear someone clipping what I hope were their fingernails. The noise is like fingernails on a chalkboard to me.
Once I almost lost it in class when the girl in front of me started clipping her fingernails DURING THE LECTURE. I was so appalled and disgustsed I couldn’t concentrate.
NYC
I once saw a judge do this, while on the bench!
downtownist
Someone a few doors down from me clips his nails while in his office… with the door open… while he is on. the. phone. So cringe-inducing.
anon
You know what’s helped me? I realized part of why I pick at my cuticles is because they look dry and gross. I find that if I can’t see the dead skin I won’t pick at it. So moisturizing all the time helps, in particular using this cuticle-oil-pen thing… it’s called “massaging cuticle treatment” pen (Sally Hansen happens to be the brand) and I found it by the nail clippers at the drugstore… And as one of the other posters suggested, I also keep a mini manicure kit (cuticle clipper, nail file etc.; actually this, http://www.sephora.com/browse/product.jhtml?id=P217618&categoryId=S3100&shouldPaginate=true) together with the pen in a little mesh bag.
tsippi
Since I started using Retin A on my hands every night, my cuticles are much better and I don’t “need” to pick them anymore. It’s the first thing that has worked on my cuticles.
Kaye
Crabtree and Evelyn has good cuticle cream.
I’m the same way – keeping my cuticles moisturized is the only way to keep myself from picking at them all day. Keeping my nails nicely manicured helps too.
PollyD
Sephora’s cuticle oil “pen” is easy to use and really seems to help with hangnails and peeling cuticles. I paint my cuticles with it, wait a couple of minutes, then sort of rub it in on my nails and cuticles. My nails aren’t splitting as much and the cuticles look better, too.
- j -
Yes! THIS. Absolutely. Particularly when paired with keeping a cuticle clipper and nail file in my desk with some intensive moisture hand lotion. The combo of all of that means my nails and cuticles are _generally_ intact.
TX Attny
Thanks for these great suggestions. I will clip dry cuticles, get a cuticle pen to keep in my desk and be liberal with the lotion. And I agree about fingernail clipping at the office – it makes me straight-up crazy, even if I just hear the sound down the hall.
Raspberry Swirl
I was just about to post with all my own suggestions, but the other commenters echoed exactly what I would say!
I’ve been a chronic cuticle-attacker my whole life, and I think it’s even worse than nail-biting (much harder to cover up). I was able to stop before my wedding a few years ago, but I’ve since fallen off the wagon.
I totally echo the tips about keeping cuticles moisturized and clipping them when necessary – the less there is to pick at the better. I had to set reminders throughout the day for lotion as well!
I also want to sing the praises of Shellac nail polish that lasts for several weeks – I thought I would be more likely to pick at my cuticles if I wasn’t worried about chipping the polish, but that’s not the case. For some reason, for me nice polish=nice cuticles.
Finally, I found that I benefitted more from keeping my hands busy than by having gum or something in my mouth. I realized I was going after the cuticles when I was on the train, or at the movies, or a ball game – when my hands weren’t occupied. It’s better for me to play with the fringe on a scarf, for example – although this isn’t much of a tip for the office.
I’m so glad to hear others have this problem too!
Bk foette
I too am a nasty cuticle picker/biter, usually during times of high stress. I have been so conscious of it lately and stopping myself since I am in interview mode and don’t want to offer a jacked up hand to shake with.
I think everyone has already posted my tips. Good luck with beating this habit!
Anonymous
I keep a nail clipper in my purse at all times to clip hangnails (I will pick at them until they are gone, so for anyone who thinks it’s gross: it’s actually infinitely less gross than bleeding on you/the subway/my desk etc. And I do try to be very discreet and quick.) and have regular (at home) cuticle clipping time. I have a very cheap nail clipper and a very expensive cuticle clipper and I hate using the nail clipper on my cuticles enough that I can almost always wait until I’m home (except for the aforementioned hangnails). Having the right tools always helps!
Angela
My husband bit his nails for 20 plus years. I finally sent him to a very well respected hypnotherapist and he hasn’t bit his nail since after 6 or so treatments.
Morfydd
I pick at my cuticles really badly, too. The one and only thing that works for me is acrylic manicures. First, my hands look nicer, so that helps. The most important effect, though, comes from the fact that the acrylic layer makes my fingernails so blunt I *can’t* pick at anything. It really works!
I hate having to get the acrylic filled every month, so I’ve recently been trying to stop the picking via sheer willpower. It’s… not working. I’m going to try a decent home nail polish job, but that’s never been as successful. Sigh.
Julie
i have been a lifelong compulsive cuticle biter. i just got a shellac manicure for the first time last week, and haven’t bitten at my cuticles since then. it also helps to put Burt’s Bee’s lemon butter cuticle creme (or LUSH makes a nice one called lemony flutter) at least once a day and regularly moisturizing my hands. i’ve seen a pretty dramatic behavior change, considering what i used to do.
Not related
Skype job interview coming up. Never used Skype at all. Any tips?
Sydney Bristow
Test it out with some friends so that you can get used to the system and also find the best location for your webcam and test out the lighting so you look as nice as possible.
Good luck on the interview!
EC
Test it out, absolutely. My webcam makes me look very yellow, and I have to adjust the angle so it doesn’t focus up my nose (seriously, not a flattering look for me). I also had to figure out the microphone on my computer – if I move too far to one side, the mike can’t pick up my voice.
Also, practice where your eyes focus. If you’re looking at the Skype frame showing the other person (or the one showing yourself), your eyes won’t be pointed at the webcam lens and it will look like you’re not making eye contact. I’ve had friends actually turn off the frame with the other person so they are always focused on the webcam, but I don’t know that I would feel comfortable doing that.
Bk foette
I remember this was posted a while back — here is the link: https://corporette.com/2010/02/25/how-to-put-your-best-self-forward-during-a-skype-interview-or-conference-call/#comments
WorkingGirl
If you have not yet, read the article in today’s NYT about Microsoft acquiring it. I would talk about that.
Liz (Europe)
Make sure your internet connection is great, check that (if you’re using boxes, not headphones) it doesn’t cause an infinite feedback loop with your mic, and play with the lighting a bit.
Bunkster
I have an online addiction, as well.
I don’t have much in the way of issues with other people at work, except for the people who put conference calls on speakerphone. But I could write a whole guide on proper subway/T etiquette.
Ses
Gah – I hear you on the speakerphone thing. I work with two men who take *all* their calls on speakerphone. I had a boss who used to do this on his echoey phone all the time and I joked it was because he wanted it to sound like god was calling you.
This is of course anecdotal, but I have only noticed men do this Maybe that’s one of those “take up more [auditory] space” things from NGDGTCO.
Bunkster
Yup. It seems to be just men here, too. Of course, that might be because I’m in IT and there are just more men, in general. But we’re in cubicles. They seem completely oblivious to the fact that the entire floor can hear them.
Anon from Chicago
i do this all the time. Its annoying and uncomfortable to hold the phone up to my ear, and this way both hands are free (those headsets are annoyingly uncomfortable). Its just much easier to put it on speaker.
EC
I use speakerphone all the time as well – I have a nasty habit of dropping the handset and accidentally hanging up on the call, but I can always hit the “speaker” button accurately. Plus, I like having my hands free and the ability to hit “mute” (which I can’t do with my handset). I do have my own office with walls, so maybe that makes it a bit better.
K
I’m with Anon from Chicago. I use speakerphone all the time because I find it easier to take notes or look at the documents we are discussing while on speaker.
K
I should note I am in an office and not a cubicle.
JO
Headsets.
Bunkster
I’ve gotta say… I’m glad I don’t work with either of you. I fully understand that conference calls can be uncomfortable. Half my company is in New Jersey. The rest are here in Boston. I’m on conference calls all the time.
But you need to have some consideration for your co-workers. If you have an office, close the door. And, if you don’t, find an empty conference room.
Anon from Chicago
i do have an office and i often, but not always, close the door. most people here use speakerphone though and no one seems to care.
spacegeek
I agree. I do both–I have a headset for very long (all day) telecons, but sometimes use the speakerphone when it is shorter.
anon
I hate being on the other end of speaker user calls. It’s annoying as a listener when you have to listen to an echo, their cell phone, typing, and everything else. I frequently am on large calls that get transcribed (everyone knows they are being recorded) and some jerks still won’t take it off speaker. The worst was one call where a large group was on and we got put into a system listening to hold music with occassional bits of her going through voice mail.
For me, I’m rude in that I often keep typing when people start talking to me. And sometimes it lasts just a little too long because I don’t want to lose my train of thought. I can tell folks are annoyed. What’s worse is I usually am making eye contact (and sometimes even talk) but the hands just keep typing. Bad hands!
KD
Seriously, use a headset. If you have some difficulty getting it to work properly at first (I use to answer and only the receiver would work and the mic was still disabled), practice both calling out and answering a call with a friend on the other side. This way you’re able to have both hands free and keep it so your cube neighbors only have to hear one side of the conversation.
If you feel speakerphone is quicker, just keep your phone and headset buttons set to your headsets. That way you just need to hit the answer button when a call comes in.
Anon from Chicago
seriously get over the speakerphone thing. i dont get it. none of the reasons people have posted on here are good reasons to stop using speakerphone (i.e., becuase it annoys you is not a good reason), but there are many reasons to use it: its better for your head, neck, shoulders, posture, you can use both hands while talking, headsets are uncomfortable (think headache), and regular phones are a germ pool.
Bunkster
So you don’t think that a loud conference call that reverberates throughout the whole floor because we’re in cubes is enough of an annoyance for other people? Seriously?
It doesn’t just annoy me. It distracts me. Today I was working on a System User Guide. Most days I spend my time troubleshooting code and researching problems.
I honestly cannot understand how you can be so oblivious (not to mention self-absorbed!) to the people around you.
Noner
Noise is a distraction (and a source of stress) for many people. Maybe not to you, but those people exist because I am one of them. I can’t focus on my phone call if I have to listen to yours reverberate through out the office. If you don’t have a way to isolate the noise of your call, then its rude and disruptive to everyone that has to listen to it. Your work is not more important than mine. You will not break if you have to pick up the handset occasionally. Also, your phone is a pool of your germs. Which you already have in your body. If it still skeeves you, clean the phone – they won’t melt.
People who don’t respect their co-worker’s work environment are my pet peeve. And whistlers. And gum smackers.
Anon
Its unfortunate you feel that way. It seems to me like you have other issues you might need to work out. good luck with that.
speak up
Okay why does my headset constantly squeal every time I talk? That is the only reason I do not use it. I don’t mind that it looks like I am selling home siding. There’s are a lot of storms lately… people need siding.
Scully
My significant other works with a woman who constantly clears her throat- about once every five minutes. They work in adjoining cubicles. He’s worried it may be related to a medical issue, so he hasn’t said anything to her. Should he? She’s also very fond of snacking on apples and carrots throughout the day, so the crunching gets pretty loud.
So far he’s just settled on earbuds and toughing it out. Any other suggestions?
Em
I worked with a guy who did that; it was pretty annoying, but I think it was allergy related so I too never said anything.
RKT
Hmm… It’s thoughtful of your husband to assume it’s medical. It might well be. My husband, however, does that when he is concentrating deeply, so he doesn’t even realize he’s doing it… I’m not sure there’s any good way to bring this up. With him, I can just say “Hon, you’re doing that throat clearing thing again…” but I don’t know how you bring that up with someone you’re not related to.
kellyn
Could be allergies (guilty), could be acid reflux (guilty), or, oddly, it could be tourettes. I had a boss who was so outgoing and affable, but he cleared his throat like he had dairy throat constantly. As an allergy AND acid reflux sufferer, I assumed it was that. I offered him water or a cough drop every once in a while, and thought nothing of it. Someone mentioned that it could be tourettes, or a tic of some sort. Possible!
EC
I worked across from a woman who constantly made a snorting/hacking noise like someone would make after a bad cold. After 18 months, I had completely tuned it out, but it really grossed me out for the first six months.
JJ
My dad is on a heart medication and one of the side effects is that he constant has to clear his throat. Annoying, but unavoidable. So it well could be medical related.
However – I had an office next to a guy that ate carrots and apples all.day. It was like having an office next to Mr. Ed.
Oneanon
I sat next to a girl in a first year law school course whose snacks of choice were carrots and apples. Very crunchy, very noisy. I never understood why she couldn’t just wait until break to eat something quickly (I get that some people have blood sugar issues that require frequent snacking, but unlike an 8 hour deposition where you are lucky to get a potty break, this was only a 55 minute class!)
anonk
I sat next to a girl in a first year law school course whose snacks of choice were carrots and apples. Very crunchy, very noisy. I never understood why she couldn’t just wait until break to eat something quickly (I get that some people have blood sugar issues that require frequent snacking, but unlike an 8 hour deposition where you are lucky to get a potty break, this was only a 55 minute class!)
Kady
Same here – sat next to a girl who always crunched on various loud snacks. But she legitimately needed the snacks – she actually passed out a few times in LS when she hadn’t done a good enough job of keeping her blood sugar up.
Emily I
My advice would be to try to be patient and to assume it is medical/nervous tick. I know a person who does have a condition that causes throat clearing (more of a mental/stress thing than “medical).
Back in law school, I had a classmate who coughed constantly through every class. Some of us found it pretty distracting. Thank goodness no one ever said anything, though. We found out months into the school year that he had CF. He had enough to worry about than the rest of us giving him a hard time!
BB
I cough phlegm (ick) or have to clear my throat pretty frequently, and I generally say “excuse me” to anyone in the vacinity if it’s particularly prolonged. But my lungs are jacked up, there’s nothing I can do about it, and I hope that people just get used to it or ignore it. I don’t know how bothersome it is to other people – just that it’s more frequent than the average non-cold, non-allergy person (at least a few times a day, every day). I would ignore coughing and throat-clearing – and say something about annoying crunchy food munching.
jcb
My SO is a frequent cougher due to a medical issue with his throat. He would probably be a little embarrassed if people asked him about it, but no one really does. (there is a surgery he could pursue, but apparently there’s a risk that he would lose his ability to talk – not acceptable). Honestly, over time you just get used to it. It’s like living by the train. (actually, that is how I first knew I was into him – the coughing didn’t bother me at all!).
AJ
Before I moved to my current place, I had to have all my stuff shipped to the office, since neither UPS nor Fedex could get into my building and USPS will never ever leave anything. So I became Girl Who UPS Knows By Name, which was more than mildly embarrassing.
Of course, now the UPS guy who deals with my home route practically knows me by name, and my ex-roommate delighted in telling me how embarrassing that was, but that’s a separate issue.
Jas
Several of the delivery guys in town know me by name, too, so that if I order something to my home address, they’ll bring it by my office instead. It’s slightly embarassing, because now my coworkers know how often I buy things online.
Sneezy
I am a very loud sneezer and people are always making comments. It’s random, not every day, and even I am surprised by most of them. Once other people made me aware, I try to control it.
I argue across a woman who clicks her pen on and off during her entire argument (and sometimes during mine). I noticed but it never really bothered me. One of the hearing officers got annoyed and asked what the sound was. Ever since then, she carries a non-clicky pen.
Betty
I’m a loud sneezer too! I didn’t realize how bad until a neighbor in the adjacent building yelled out “bless you” one time. Whoops.
Eponine
In the adjacent BUILDING? Wow. That’s actually a talent – you should be proud.
K
I am also a very loud sneezer and often have others down the hall say bless you!
Sneezy
People seriously have stopped blessing me because they are so fed up with being startled.
kellyn
I’ve realized that loud sneezing is a problem for me, but for a different reason… when I sneeze, if I am caught off guard, my legs sort of jump up in reaction. Which is fine… except that middle drawer in my metal desk clangs something wicked when I do sneeze. It’s so embarrassing.
jenna
Threadjack – sorry :)
I have an interview with a firm that is in house counsel for a corporation. I have never heard of an in house counsel firm before. Anyone familiar with these? If so, how do they typically work? i.e., are they basically like a law firm with just one client? Are they typically part of the billable hours world? or do they typically function like a law department of a corporation.
Would appreciate any input.
Thanks!
GovtMom
How niche-y is the practice area? I’ve seen that happen in my very narrow practice area, with the firm advising on all things related to that particular form of regulation (for the regulated entity). I think whether you bill time will depend on the agreement with the client.
One thing to think about would be what is your promotion potential there? Can you make partner? If so, what do you have to do to achieve that? In most firms, you need to build a book of business to make partner … but if you’re working for only one client, that’s really hard. Are you allowed to have other clients? I’ve seen firms where 95% of the work is for one client, but there still are a few others here and there, for example.
Lynnet
I summered for a firm that was in house counsel for a corporation. The corporation was only about 50% of their work load, though, so I’m not sure my experiences would be relevant to you. However, they mostly just treated the corporation like any other client in terms of billable hours, etc. I’m guessing it probably varies from firm to firm and corporation to corporation, though.
Sara
I have a roommate who works with a guy who has no problem passing gas in his cubicle. He thinks that as long as no one hears him fart, that no one notices. But you know what? The cubicle is very small, and there is not a lot of air circulating. So when he lets loose, it smells up the cubicle and my roommates cubicle. She always has to explain that it was not her, but him who let loose, and it is very embarrassing. Most people who work there know him as “the farter” but when new people come in, my roommate is mortified because they think she is the one doing it.
Honey Bear
That’s hilarious!!
jcb
Your poor roommate! Honestly, she has to say something to him. It is so not okay to have to sit all day in someone else’e gas!!
Stinky
That one wins! Gross.
Susan
What an ass. Literally. The guy who stinks up the place should be outed by the boss. No one should be permitted to fart at will, even if they have their own office, because foul odors have a way of moving.
anon for this
What if he has IBS or Crohn’s? Not everyone can help passing gas. If I went to the bathroom every time I had to fart, I would NEVER get work done.
Betty
I have a long list of office-mate pet peeves because I worked in a cube farm with high turnover for several years – I’ve seen it all, from someone who kept the dirty bowl from his morning oatmeal on his desk until he needed it again days later (yes, without washing it!), to a coke addict (with “recurrent nosebleeds” and “allergies”) who would yell on the phone with student loan people multiple times a day.
Instead, I’m going to focus on one of my biggest flaws – I’m distracting. When I’m around people I’m friendly with, I tend to start conversations with them, even when we are both trying to work. It’s because I’m easily distracted myself and I tend to “share”. When I’m aware of it, I work hard to take deep breaths, shut up, and focus on work, but inevitably I forget and slip up.
Anyone have tips? If I worked with myself, I’d probably have strangled me by now.
eaopm3
I’m distracting, too. As the only woman in an all-male firm, where all the support staff are women, it’s really easy to try to be friendly, but end up starting or getting sucked into a too-long conversation. I don’t have much advice, but I feel your pain. I try to keep backing away or looking away in a distracted manner to let people know I was “in the middle of something” and didn’t mean for the conversation to be ten minutes long… It’s tough, though.
in-house
This happens in my office. People closest to one admin’s desk get the brunt of it – she can see them at all times unless the door is closed, so she chats. There’s only so long someone can stand in your office and talk to you, but when they can see you from their seat it is brutal.
Jas
Our office manager likes to chat constantly, and his open door faces my desk. It’s terribly annoying, especially as he doesn’t seem to take hints like me turning back to the computer screen or even getting up and walking down the hallway!
Ses
I do this too. Get a Pomodoro timer (referrin to the Pomodoro time management technique) and when you see it ticking away you will remember that it’s not talk time, it’s work time. There’s a very simple free app for it too – called iTomato.
I find this technique helpful for distracty types like me.
Ashley
I tend to do the same… I combat it by standing right at the door of their office if I can, so that I’m physically signaling (mostly to myself) that I’m only going to stay for a minute. I also try to preface my visit with, “Two quick questions: 1) question XYZ 2) question 123.” Again, it helps me tell myself and my colleague that I did, in fact, come for something specific. Last, I try to only do the “sharing” drop-ins right before a lunch break or 15 minutes to the end of the day, so that I will be watching the time and not overstay my welcome.
Ex-Bad Habit
Oh the oatmeal! I used to be that person. I’d eat oatmeal every day and leave the bowl on my desk until the next morning when I’d wash it and make new oatmeal. So gross, I know, but I thought I was “too busy” to wash it the second I was done.
I was finally shamed into stopping when one of my coworkers washed the bowl for me and put it back on my desk with an anonymous post-it saying something like “I couldn’t look at it anymore.” I’ve never left so much as coffee spoon on my desk after that! So embarrassing. At the time I thought no one noticed but obviously I was just kidding myself!
Anon
I do that – but I hide the bowl after use :) That makes it OK, right?
in-house
We’re all reading Corporette during the day–online addiction it is!
I probably touch my hair and necklace too much. I try to catch it. I’m always surprised when people whistle–it’s really invasive, it’s like singing loudly! An admin in my office sings along with her iPod and often burps loudly (does not excuse herself). That’s just rude anywhere.
Nail Biter Lawyer
Well, this is timely for me. I’m a compulsive nail biter, and I pick at the skin around the nails, too. Have done it since I was a kid. Now I’ve spent years of therapy and anti-anxiety meds, addressing it as part of a larger anxiety disorder. I also have acrylic nails that I get done regularly so there are no edges to pick at. It’s somewhat better except when I’m really stressed. This week I have a huge closing and I’m so embarrassed that everyone can see my hands and am sure they are thinking I can’t handle the work, etc.
TX Attny
I posted above about having this same kind of problem. As a fellow skin biter, might I suggest you clip your nails short or file them down, buff them, paint them with a clear nail hardener and then doctor the parts around your nails with Neosporin and Band-Aids before you go to bed tonight? They won’t be healed in the morning, but they may be a little better. Maybe that will help them look a little better during your big week. I, too, have had that horrible feeling of needing to review documents with someone and point out clauses or whatever, only to be horrified by the state of my nails. Keep a pen with you so you can use it to point. Good luck!
Associette
“Online addiction” ==> ding ding ding (as I read Corporette and search for pics of William and Kate on their h-moon). Although I hope that is not something that people notice about me and identify as a “bad habit”?
My least favorite habit are those overly into their hand-held devices (blackberries, iphones…). If you are talking to someone or in a meeting, put it down and look the person (or persons) that you are meeting with, in the eye.
Don’t get me wrong, I LOVE me some iphone…but people first.
Redacted
I chew on the insides of my lips, where the skin is a little chapped but chapstick doesn’t help. I know it’s gross (my dad does it, and I used to think it was disgusting to hear him slurping away all the time), and I’ve been trying to stop.
On a related note – anyone know a long-lasting lip balm/lip gloss that doesn’t dry your lips after a while? I was using the Cover Girl Lip Slicks, but my lips end up flaky and gross after a few hours (which doesn’t help the above bad habit).
Monday
Neutrogena makes a “lip soother” with SPF, and it’s a gel. It works perfectly for me, and I like the mango-y taste. Drugstores. However, I will say that the range of colors they offer is deceptive. I own more than one, and on my lips they all look exactly the same, which is…clear. So it glosses and moisturizes, but does not give any color.
Another Sarah
I do the same thing, and Aquaphor is the only thing that doesn’t make my lips flaky and gross. AND it tastes bad, so it helps me stop picking apart my lips.
Scully
Dr. Dan’s Cortibalm. It has 1% hydrocortisone. It changed by life when I was on Accutane (a side effect is super dry lips). It’s expensive but so worth it.
Scully
er rather, changed “my” life
Sneezy
Nivea “A Kiss of Shine”
Ruby
L’Oreal Colour Juice and Clinique Superbalm are both great.
Anonymous
I get really chapped lips and I’ve found that anything that is a liquid to apply, as opposed to a ‘stick’, has more coverage. I really like Vaseline’s overnight care. It’s supposed to be strong enough to apply once before bed and last all night, so a couple applications during the day really helps my lips.
Catherine
Actual Chapstick. The “moisturizing” kind. It’s the only thing I’ve found (and I’m a professed lip balm enthusiast, I’ve tried all of them) that actually works and makes your lips LESS chapped, as opposed to MORE chapped.
Kaye
I love this: http://www.sephora.com/browse/product.jhtml?id=P42204
Not that long-lasting, it’s one of those that soaks into your lips rather than stays on top of them. But it definitely doesn’t dry out my lips, and it smells great.
Para
Burt’s Bees
mamabear
OK here’s something sort of relevant that I could use some advice on, and it’s fairly gross. There seems to be a woman on my floor who has frequent, er, digestive issues. There are many times I can’t even bear to go into the bathroom (a poorly ventilated three-stall job) and even worse, there are times when I can smell it from down the hall. I find this super embarassing when we have visitors. And times when I’ve used the bathroom after the smell has died down, as I exit the room I want to say “I swear it wasn’t me!”
A colleague and I have spoken to Operations about why the automatic air freshener sprayer thing is no longer working. They say allergy complaints caused the building to shut them all down.
So – no fan. (can’t reverse engineer the bathroom now) No air freshener. Can smell it in the hall at least once a day.
What would you do?
(sorry for anyone who is eating lunch right now!)
Emily I
Could a can of air freshener be left somewhere conspicuous in the bathroom? On the counter next to the sink or in the stalls?
anonk
even just a bowl of vinegar, maybe? otherwise, i second the lysol can suggestion.
mamabear
You know, I will go buy a can of that stuff right now. I have in the past, as have others, and they get thrown away (by the allergy sufferers or maintenance, I don’t know.) But it might be worth it to replace it every three days or so…..
Maybe the perpetrator enjoys her smell?? I have no idea. It seems like a passive-aggressive marking thing sometimes.
AIMS
I highly doubt anyone enjoys making the bathroom inhospitable to her co-workers. On the one hand, I feel for you. On the other, what is this person supposed to do if she has digestive issues?
I like the air freshner idea. Maybe you can look for something neutral or more natural so as to accomodate the allergy-sufferers. If you find that the one you leave in the bathroom gets thrown away, what about keeping one in your office for emergencies? This way, if you have clients coming and you have an issue in the bathroom, you can discreetly pop in and spray some air freshner before the clients come up.
PollyD
Can you place one of those waxy one some place where maintenance is less likely to notice it? Or put some stick-up ones under the sink? Heh -find the grungy part (that is, obviously not often cleaned) of the bathroom and put a stick-up freshener there!
TCFKAG
Oh lord mamabear. People who have GI problems do not “enjoy” stinking up the bathroom. They simply have to go to the bathroom. What would you prefer they do? Wait? Because that’s not really an option.
I realize that its a problem for you — but trust me. She’s very likely mortified but has no options.
mamabear
I’m sorry, no I do not think people who have digestive problems are passive aggressive. The marking comment was about the condition the bathroom is often left in (like really? you can’t flush the toilet?) that I didn’t go into on my original email. Sorry.
Kaye
So how about a sign on the inside of the door: “Did you remember to flush?”
Also, a toilet brush in each stall could help with some self-maintenance…
Bk foette
What about a bowl of baking soda?? Also, the match thing does work — my husband would do this to prevent fights with me when he had a 1 bathroom apartment.
Sorry mamabear, that is tough.
JO
Operations won’t like this, but my grandmother told me that lighting a match after I “made an odor” would take care of the problem. I occasionally will enter a restroom and catch the scent of a match (and maybe an ever-so-faint whiff of “odor”), so I think it must work. I always just thought my grandmother was being fastidious and don’t worry about it in the privacy of my very own home, which is where I try to confine my odor making :)
Seriously, if it’s impacting public areas of the office sapce, it’s a problem and I’m sure there are other chemical alternatives than a squirt of Glade every 15 minutes. But I’m neither a chemist nor an Operations person.
Jr. Prof
The match thing does work. My husband is thoughtful enough to strike a match after ‘making an odor’ in our home bathroom. Maybe you could carry a book of matches, mamabear, and light one if you happen to step into the bathroom when it’s stinky (don’t leave them in the bathroom, or Ops will surely dispose of them as a fire hazard). Then just flush the match.
Matches
I agree about the match trick. I find it works better if you light it, let it burn a second or two, blow or wave it out, and then drop it in the water. If you put it out by dropping it in the water, you lose some of the “just burned” smell that helps so much.
anon
What about one of those reed difuser things? They have them at my gym and they’re not very harsh chemical-wise. (I think they look kind of spa like, so perhaps a bit more elegant than a spray can on the counter.)
Eponine
Try Citrus Magic (or a similar product – it’s a citrus oil spray and it kills smells immediately). We have the same problem in my office and I brought in a can. It smells like a freshly-peeled orange.
Lighting a match will also work, but the sulfur smell is kind of gross on its own.
Poopy
Maybe I’m your coworker. I have crohns, and when I go, it stinks, and I go multiple times per day. Nothing I can do about it. I have heard about a product called “just a drop.” You put a drop in the bowl before you go and it keeps it from stinking. I haven’t seen it in stores yet but I might buy it online. Please cut your coworker some slack. I’m sure she is mortified and I doubt it is intentional. Just be glad you don’t have to poop all the time too. What I wouldn’t give to be someone who could “confine my stink” to home. My stink goes everywhere, including plane bathrooms, bus bathrooms, court bathrooms, farting in my office, etc. I’m just glad I am healthy enough to work everyday.
b23
It’s always good to be reminded of someone else’s perspective. You’re right, we should all be more patient! And good luck with your condition. I hope it gets better.
Maddie
My cousin gave me a housewarming present when I first moved in with my now-husband, it included “the drops” (sounds very similar to “just a drop”). I have to say, as crazy as it sounds, they completely work, you just put a couple drops into the toilet water and there is barely any smell. 5 years later and I still make sure we have them.
Anonymous
Hugs to you, Poopy! People are so freaking judgmental. Get over yourselves, ladies.
UKYogi
Poopy I was just going to say exactly the same thing! The drops thing sounds amazing.
EC
My boss often farts and burps in my office (speak of annoying co-worker habits), and I spray Aveda hair spray after he leaves. It’s not as effective as Glade, but also not as recognizable – people might just think I’m wearing too much hair product that day. Aveda has a somewhat herbal, spicy smell, so it’s also something different than the everyday office smells.
M
I have a can of Oust in my office for my delicious and smelly curry lunch days – I wonder if you could leave Oust in the restroom instead of a potentially allergenic Lysol-type.
AIMS
Ooh, this is my pet peeve. For some reason, other people’s strongly smelling food is very disturbing to me. To the point that I may even like something myself, but smelling it being eaten by someone else at work will make me queasy.
I used to share an office with a woman who brought in lots of salmon, curry, etc., and it made me want to skip lunch altogether. It also made the microwave smell like her food. I actually think the microwave made it worse. I don’t think I would have had this issue if she got take out.
I think it’s a good tip that if you share an office and/or microwave, you should stick to more neutral foods when eating at your desk.
anon
I work in the medical field. MediChoice Biological Air Freshener. Over the past year I’ve found more of these little spray bottles popping up throughout the hospital. It works miraculously well.
Apple
Threadjack — Although it maybe relates to my bad habit of shopping while at work…
I just bought this jacket from Anthro (http://www.anthropologie.com/anthro/catalog/productdetail.jsp?id=20474227&catId=SHOPSALE-COATS&pushId=SHOPSALE-COATS&popId=SHOPSALE&navAction=top&navCount=192&color=001&isProduct=true&fromCategoryPage=true&templateType=E), and I’m wondering how to style it so that it doesn’t look too trophy wife/old lady.
Also, is this an appropriate formal (ish) office jacket? Paired with, say, a black sheath and heels, or a black pencil skirt. I’m in corporate, not a lawyer, so i won’t be in court/in front of a judge, etc.
I have a lot of trouble finding suit separates that work as jackets, so I’d like to be able to use this as a jacket in some situations.
AIMS
I think it would look cute with skinny jeans, a white tee, and ballet flats. Maybe with some turquise or coral jewelry.
For work, try pairing it with black or navy pants and a white top. I can’t tell quite how it fits/hangs from the website, but either wide leg or cropped pants (sort of Jackie O style, not clamdiggers [obviously]) might work. A sheath or a pencil skirt would work, too. I think the trick to keeping it modern and professional is clean lines and mostly neutral colors like black, gray, navy, white, etc. Reserve color for accents in the form of a chunky necklace or a bright skinny belt or cute red shoes, etc.
SheWhoBrokeHerLeg
what about this dress? I think the coral and the gold buttons could play nicely. I am in the same boat — I love the dress, but it needs a jacket.
http://www.jcrew.com/womens_category/dresses/weartowork/PRDOVR~36714/36714.jsp
Anon
I have been eyeing this jacket for a few days, but I have the same fear: that it will look trophy wife-ish.
http://www.jcrew.com/womens_feature/NewArrivals/jacketsblazers/PRDOVR~40315/40315.jsp
SheWhoBrokeHerLeg
I love that jacket, too. I am ordering with the skirt, since the skinny cropped pant is really too casual for a professional suit.
thoughts please!!
Threadjack!! Sorry!!
I am finishing up my junior year of college and have begun actively considering law school with a career in immigration law to follow rather than my original plan, which was to work for the state department, UN or non profit. I worked in my dad’s office over the winter and really liked it which is the reason behind the jump.
HOWEVER, I need some advice, for those of you who have gone the law school route directly out of undergrad is it something you would reccomend or would you say taking a few years off of school and working whether in law or someplace else is a better way to go about it. (Or vice versa)
I turned in my last final a few hours ago so now I have to stop procrastinating on the list of things to work on for next year and this is at the top.
Thank you so much
AnonInfinity
I went to law school after taking 2 years off. I did not know I wanted to go to law school when I graduated from college.
I am so so so glad I took the time off. I feel that my time off helped me keep in mind that law school is not the most important thing or the most impressive thing in the whole universe. I still got stressed and still took all of my studies seriously, but I don’t think I got overly involved in the law school drama (by that, I mean that many of my classmates acted like they were still in high school).
It also gave me time to save up a little money. Having a small savings account added tremendously to my feeling of stability.
Law school can also be a huge time suck, so it’s good to develop a habit of reading fun books, seeing movies, cooking, exercising regularly, etc., before getting in.
Finally, taking some time off gave me a great mental break. I was able to start my first year fresher mentally than my classmates who had powered straight through. You will be using your brain A LOT in law school, so I think that resting it a bit before jumping in can be a good plan. My in-laws cautioned me against taking a break before grad school (even though I wasn’t sure what I wanted to do), saying that if I didn’t continue with school straight away, I would get busy and never get back into it. I disagree with this view because I really think that if it is something you really want to do, you will make time to go back.
AIMS
A lot of people will discourage you from going to law school. I am not going to say yay or nay on that point. It seems like you are considering law school for the right reasons, and you sound like you can figure out whether it’s something you should do or not.
To your specific question: I think it is helpful to take off a year or two. The downside is you only have so much time, and as women we feel that more keenly than men might. So, yes, in terms of having time to get your career going, it helps to be 25 or 26 when you graduate law school. But, I think taking some time to be a professional lets you 1) have a leg up in terms on having a more meaningful resume; 2) buys you some time now to allow the legal market to recover a bit (it is currently oversaturated and in the dumps); 3) makes you a more interesting candidate to both law schools and future employers (e.g., I know some fed ct judges who will not consider clerks who went straight college to law school); and 4) gives you time to do something else you are interested in doing and to make sure you really go into this with a clear head. Law school requires a lot more work than college, too, so I think being a little older helps you focus better, take it more seriously, not feel burnt out later, etc.
Of course, there is a difference between taking off a year or two vs. taking off five years or more. I think taking too much time off can be tough. It makes it harder to be collegiate with your peers (for better or worse) and I think law school can take more of a toll on you once you are in the midst of having a “real” life with “real” responsibilities.
Whatever you do, best of luck.
JJ
This is great advice. Normally, I would tell you about how I went straight through college to law school and have been successful (I think it all really depends on your relative maturity upon college graduation and some people just aren’t ready yet). However, the market for law school grads is in such terrible shape right now, I think sitting out one or two years could buy you some much-needed time.
And I want to echo that a lot of people will tell you to not go to law school. It was the right decision for me – I love my job. But remember that student loans are basically a mortgage that you’re taking out on your future and you will have to treat them accordingly.
AnonInfinity
I agree completely that the amount of time you take off should be more on the 1-3 year end of the spectrum rather than 5+ years. My classmates who took a longer time off did have trouble getting back into the habit of studying all the time, and they did not always seem to study as effectively as the people who had practiced more recently.
If you take the LSAT during your senior year like Kady suggested, it can help you keep the break short because the scores are only good for a certain amount of time.
MelD
I would say in my class that most of the people who were doing something else for 4+ years did take longer to get the swing of things. I would say though that most of us studied every bit as much as the younger. The issue when you are older is that you approach materially differently (from more of a real world perspective) than you would if you were just out of school. Some of the techniques I had to use in my careers before law school were the absolute opposite of what I had to do in law school.
In terms of when to go back, it’s entirely up to you. I started considering law school pretty soon after I finished college, but it’s a large financial commitment and I did not want to put myself into debt until I was absolutely sure it was worth it. I do enjoy my career a lot now and am happy with my decision, but I think I gained some perspective by absolutely hating a few of the jobs I did before law school. I no longer have this ideal of finding a dream job and I think that helps me to be more content with my job.
b23
I agree with all of this. I would add: I am currently clerking, and so many of the resumes we get have really interesting experiences listed between college and law school. It makes me wish I had done something like Teach for America, Peace Corps, etc. I’ll never have the chance to do that again, really.
Wondering
This is a great point. I took 5 years off between college and law school, and am so glad that I did. When I was interviewing for firms jobs and clerkships, I felt that I had a HUGE leg up because I had done so many interesting things pre-law school. All of my interviews were about my non profit stint pre law school. I would say that the vast majority of students who received prestigious firm offers/clerkships were those who had taken at least 3 years off. Of course, we also had students who went straight to law school and did very well, but overall, I think those who went straight to law school were at a disadvantage during the job process because it was hard for them to stand out from the crowd.
Kady
Unless you (1) are certain you understand what the practice of law entails, (2) are certain that it is what you want to do, and (3) will be going through law school without taking on debt (negotiable, depending on school and debt amount), I would strongly recommend you taking at least 2 years off before going to law school. For all the reasons AnonInfinity mentions. But that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t take the LSATs in your senior year (since it is much easier to be in a study mindset when you are actually a student).
I took 12 years off before going to LS and I still ended up regretting it.
Ms. Basil E. Frankweiler
I went straight through because I knew that if I stopped and got a “big girl” job, I wouldn’t be able to get the ball rolling at the same rate when I went back.
Pros: I’m going to be 24 when I get my law degree. I was still in “school mode.” I started law school at the peak/beginning of the decline of the job drought, so I wasn’t facing the overwhelming burden of trying to find a job.
Cons: I’ve have never had a job that lasted longer than a year because I was alway in school. I will only be 24 trying to convince the elderly that I am a “real lawyer.” I am so darn sick of being in school.
I say, to each her own, but I as tired as I am of being in school, I am glad I stuck with it and that I am almost done.
Sydney Bristow
I’m grateful for the 2 years that I took off in between undergrad and law school. I had a completely random job during that time, but it leads to some funny conversations sometimes because of the industry I was in. I felt like I had real world experience, although not law related, to fill out my resume during 1L when everyone was applying for jobs at the DOJ.
However, the 2 years that I took off meant that I graduated in 2009 and the job market is awful. It could work in the opposite way for you though, giving the market a few more years to rally before you enter it.
Also, for what its worth, I studied for the LSAT the summer after my junior year and took it in October of my senior year. I think scores are good for 5 years, but at least you would be prepared in case you decide to go immediately.
Maddie Ross
Different perspective. I’m several years out of law school now and went straight through. Occasionally I regret that I didn’t take time off in between to do something fun (work at a ski resort, travel through South America, etc.). I have never ever regretted not taking time off to do “real work.” I see it this way, if you have seriously thought about your desire to be an attorney (i.e., this is not just a stop-gap method to prevent unemployment) and if you have some idea of what an attorney actually does (which it seems like you do from working in your dad’s office), there is no reason to postpone it. If there is any inkling of an idea in your head that you might not really want to be a lawyer, you may owe it to yourself to take more time to think about it. I was pretty darn sure I wanted to be a lawyer by the end of my time in college. I was able to secure handsome scholarships by going straight-thru, as well as assistance from my parents with health and car insurance. I was also still in the student mindset, which was helpful for both studying and budgeting. Just food for thought.
Lydia
Totally agree with this. I went straight through. I was certain I wanted to be a lawyer and was worried that if I took time off, I would not want to go back to living like an impoverished student. In hindsight, I wish I had taken a year off just to do something fun. There is plenty of time to focus on career stuff…taking off for a year in South America or wherever is really tough to do once you get out of law school.
Annie
Totally second (third) Maddie Ross and Lydia.
KMM
Fourth. I went straight through, graduated at 24, passed the bar and started work at 25. One more year to enjoy my life wouldn’t have killed me.
2L NYC
Counterpoint! I went to law school right after graduating from college. I’ve always known exactly what I wanted to do, and will be doing precisely what I want to do with my law degree. For some perspective, about 25% of my law school class came straight from undergrad, with a majority coming within 2-3 years of their law school graduation.
I will say one thing — I go to a highly ranked law school (which yes, is bragging) and have a pretty marketable specialty in the law, so I did not have to worry about getting a job. If you find that you will not be in this position and will have to undertake a lot of debt in going to law school, this could be one reason to reconsider.
Some other thoughts:
1. I think that if you are a junior, you are a bit late in the law school cycle unless you already have been preparing for the LSAT. It is often considered a good idea to take the June LSAT for applications, since then you will know your scores by the time you apply — most applications are rolling starting in September. Once you know your LSAT score, you can combine that with your undergraduate GPA and get a very good idea of what schools you will be able to get in. (It seems like a pretty formulaic application process to me, and I don’t think it changes much unless you have mad connections). With the October LSAT, you will have to apply to schools and THEN figure out your score, which might be inefficient.
This in itself could be a reason to wait depending on the type of school that you want to attend.
2. What job WOULD you get in the interim while you decide? Because I was so certain about going to law school, I decided that the amount I would make in my jobs would not be enough to cover law school anyway, so I decided against it.
Hope that helps!
Anonymous
Some food for thought:
1) I took the LSAT in DECEMBER of my senior year of college (2004). Did well enough (think low 160s).
2) I applied to law schools with a 2.8 GPA (admittedly I have a BS in an interesting/ difficult field of study and I was coming from a top undergrad university [not Ivy])
3) I applied to law school in January or February of 2005 (I don’t remember when exactly I applied).
4)I was accepted to law school for the 2005-2006 academic year at a Top 100/ Tier 2 law school, with scholarships, and waitlisted at several lower Tier 1 schools (I’m not an affirmative action candidate FWIW).
5) I have been gainfully employed in a big city market (where I grew up and went to undergrad, but did not go to law school) since graduating from law school in 2008 (admittedly thanks to a few excellent connections, a few of which were established during law school); granted, I’m not in BigLaw leagues salary-wise, but I am doing more than okay.
So, if you have a plan, some motivation, and a few good connections for when you graduate, you will be fine, even if you haven’t followed the traditional “apply-to-law-school-only-go-if-I-get-into-a-T14-school” model (which was favored by many of my undergraduate classmates).
anon for this
But – not to diminish your impressive accomplishments any – 2004 /2005 was a very different market from what I understand than the current over-saturated law school application process…
Divaliscious11
So what exactly does ” I’m not an affirmative action candidate” mean? Are you a female? More specifically, are you are white female? Surely you are aware that there are many studies show that women, and white women in particular, have made the most gains as a result of affirmative actions laws.
I think the more relevant observation is that you were able to find employment despite relatively mediocre credentials because 2004 was a very different legal market, for both law school and employment.
Anonymous
Just to clarify (and I think we are on the same page) I applied in ’04-’05 for the ’05-’06 year. I graduated in ’08. I made the affirmative action comment to avoid snarky comments about all of my accomplishments stemming from affirmative action (perhaps I spend too much time reading ATL…) Very interesting observation re: white females benefiting from affirmative action – I actually was not aware of the studies.
And my mediocre credentials certainly do underscore my point. If you really want to be a successful attorney, there is no “formula” that you need to follow. I have no doubts that I’ll be practicing for a long time to come, and that I will achieve a certain level of success along the way.
Anon
I disagree that junior year is too late to get on the law school wagon. I didn’t decide until my junior year that I wanted to go the law school route, but once I did decide to do so, I kicked my prep into high gear. I spent the summer doing LSAT prep (just the books, not a class) in the mornings and working afternoons and nights at a summer job. I took the October LSAT and started preparing my applications during fall break. I had a good idea of where I would apply based on my scores from practice tests, and sure enough I scored right where I thought I would so all I had to do was get the scores sent to the schools.
I also went straight through and things worked out OK for me (top-10 school, Biglaw job) but, as others have said, in today’s economy it’s a gamble.
KW
I took 3 years off in between, so I was 29 when I graduated from law school last year. I have a pile of student loan debt and am currently working as a judicial clerk so not making very much money. I’m married and we’re currently expecting our first child, which means when I’m looking for a different job next year after my 2 year clerkship ends, I am planning to look anywhere but bigger firms because I don’t want to try to balance that with spending time with my child. There are times I wish I would have gone straight through so I would have been younger when I graduated and then taken a job at a firm for several years where I could have worked long hours but earned more money, paid down a lot more of my debt, and then transitioned to in-house, government work, a non-profit or something else when we were ready to start a family.
Many women have no problem balancing life at a big firm with family responsibilities, but that’s just not something I prefer to do. I’m not sure what your personal situation is (significant other, children, future plans, etc.) but this was just my thoughts and experience. Like the others said, there are pros and cons to both.
Guest
Absolutely take time off.
AE
If you are REALLY SURE that you want to go to law school (even if you are not sure exactly what law you want to practice afterward), I don’t think you should put it off. You might have a lot of difficulty finding a job for after undergrad, anyways, so you may not be able to use the break in education to build your resume as much as you would like to. It is better from an economical standpoint too, because tuition will only go up and the sooner you start, the sooner you finish and will probably start making a higher salary that you would otherwise.
Caveat- if you are not emotionally ready to start right away, then don’t. I knew from early in college that I wanted to go to lawschool and was accepted in the fall of my senior year of college. My father died a couple weeks before I graduated college from a long-held medical condition, and I still started lawschool in the fall. This was a mistake. I got a lot of pride out of getting my JD at a young age, but I am sure I would have handled the pressure better if I had put off starting for a year.
Scully
If you are going to be working in immigration law, a second language is a huge asset. I took two years off and spent time teaching English abroad. It was a great to learn another language in an immersion setting. I also learned what it was like working in another country on a visa and dealing with immigration from the other side of the table, so to speak. I’d recommend spending considerable time abroad, whether traveling or working, if you are going to take time off.
Sneezy
I just want to add something I have not seen yet. Time off is fun BUT also can be a huge advantage when writing your personal essay. I was on the admissions committee at my law school as a student, and I was pretty surprised how much the “interesting experience in your time off” essays were weighed against “I volunteered with my sorority essays” (which was mine btw) for people with similar scores.
Your LSAT and your GPA are gonna be what they are (unless you keep retaking and averaging your LSAT). If you take time off to do something cool like Scully, it could work for you in the long run.
Finally, many schools allow you to defer your enrollment. If you change your mind at the last minute to do something else.
Lana Lang
I graduated law school in 2008 and started work at my firm soon after. Before that I took two years out. It’s worked out pretty well for me. I do sometimes think wistfully (or resentfully) that it’s not fair that I’m only now starting out when those straight-through types are counting their huge paycheck and/or gearing up for partnership. But overall it was a good choice.
For me, the benefits have outweighed the negatives, but it is really very personal. I worked in an unrelated industry for two years, kinda by accident, but in a client-facing role where I was managing projects, so I picked up a lot of skills that are very useful for my now-career (I’m in Finance in Biglaw). I wanted to do law then, but the salary was pretty tempting for a while and by the time I then went to law school I was really excited about studying again and found it pretty easy to be motivated and focused. Some of my friends said this was the hardest thing for them, having already been in education for almost 20 years i.e. being able to still be motivated with the huge work load.
I found that some firms really didn’t want to know about a slightly older candidate when I applied for jobs, but others, including my current firm, really liked that I had other experience. That said, it was really interesting to see what firms were looking for, as I would in hindsight not have been happy somewhere that didn’t appreciate the experience. I should add that I’m in London where it seems to me that less people have other experience (certainly less people have 2+ years), whereas in the US it seems more people take time out.
At work, I’ve found my previous experience useful in that, where the straight-through types were sometimes getting to grips with working in an office, writing professional e-mails, speaking to clients, time-recording etc., I had already picked up these skills and made all the silly mistakes many make when starting out. Therefore, the things in my reviews that have stood out consistently have been maturity, professional attitude, communication skills and organisation. So in some ways you can make the transition into being a lawyer easier for yourself if you have previous experience, as you can then focus on just figuring out how to do the ‘law stuff’, rather than just the ‘office stuff”.
Like I said, I do sometimes feel a little ‘old’, especially as I am the oldest in my year at my firm (29 vs 25 being the average), but nobody ever questions it or goes ‘oh wow, can’t believe you’re so old and took time out before law school’. If anything, it is ‘oh wow, you have some experience that can be useful’.
As I mentioned, it’s very personal and I hope it works out for you whichever way you decide to do it. But if there is something out there you want to do before hitting the grindstone, then it’s probably a good idea you do that now, rather than kill yourself with too much studying and/or lack of focus.
I don’t agree that if you know you want to do something you are always making the right decision by doing it, for some people it’s quite the opposite. I knew I wanted to do law, and I want to do it for a long time, so why not take my time getting there. I had some great experiences along the way and now I’ll hopefully have more to come.
Celia
I took two years off before applying to law school. At the time I thought it was to “save money” – but really, the job I got (a legal assistant in a small firm) didn’t pay enough to allow me to save a meaningful amount of money.
That said — I am really glad I did that. Academically, I think I was ready for law school when I graduated college. But spending two years working a 9 to 5 job was a valuable experience. I’m glad that my first taste of responsibility won’t be as an attorney – that I’ll have some work experience to fall back on. Having done real job interviews before was great practice for much higher stake law job interviews. And having seen a small firm and knowing how much many attorneys struggle to make ends meet was a good way to know better than to take it for granted that I would find a job that could pay back my loans afterwards — I worked my butt off as a result! Taking two years off was pretty normal among my classmates (I went to a top 10).
I also found I had more time to really study for the LSAT and to prepare the best application possible for me as a result of having a regular job instead of all of activities and academics and stress of senior year of college.
So — I don’t think there’s a right or a wrong answer. Taking time off won’t do you a bit of harm when it comes to applying. For me, working in a law firm as a secretary was fine, but if I had to do it again, I’d look for something more off the beaten path and really enjoy a year or two of unusual work — you’ll work in an office for the rest of your life, unless your job is really unique the law school admissions committee wont’ really care what you did (as long as you have something to show for the time off), and you probably won’t be making significant money anywhere you work – so do something fun! Enjoy having your evenings and weekends to yourself…
for immigration law...
I 100% agree with what a previous poster said – get some work experience abroad. You mentioned being interested in the State Dept., have you thought about the Peace Corps? In So Cal at least, nearly fluent Spanish was nearly a requirement for immigration jobs…
L
The market is still tough right now, but would prob be better in 4 yrs when you would graduate.
I went straight through – Ivy undergrad, T5 law school, and no debt, then got a biglaw job. If you would be considering loans, going to a top school is very important – you have a much better chance of getting a job. I have a friend with 200K in debt from undergrad and law school (3rd tier). Graduated in 2009 and still has not found a legal paying job.
I took the LSAT in Sept – spent the summer studying for it, just books, no Kaplan or anything – and that was fine, I got low 170s (I am a good test taker in general). Admissions came out in March or April, then I visited 2 schools and picked one.
I didn’t know what I wanted to do when I grew up, and I still don’t – I never had a ‘dream’ – but what I do (estate planning, trusts etc.) is good for now. If you have always wanted to work in the state dept or similar job, it may be worth it to try for that first and see how it goes. You can also apply to law school and jobs at the same time and see what shakes out.
K
I’m totally late to the party on this but I just wanted to say I would suggest taking more than one year off before going to law school. I only took one year off and you end up applying to school only a couple of months in so I don’t feel like I really got to evaluate the other work I was doing because the next step in the law school process was always just a few months away. In many ways, I felt like being an attorney was my first real job. That’s not a bad thing but I am sometimes jealous of my coworkers who figured out some office politics type things at other jobs before becoming an attorney.
Also, a number of my law school colleagues who had been working for awhile before school were really able to treat law school like a job and be at school studying from 9-6 and then have their evenings free. Many of us who went straight through or only took a year off didn’t focus as much during the day (spent time chatting with friends, etc.) and then had to study more in the evenings, etc.
Good luck!
LawDawg
I am definitely in the “don’t go straight to law school” camp. I started law school 18 years (yes, you read that right) after I finished undergrad. I did it full-time and graduated in 2006. I saw a huge difference in how school was approached by the kids who went straight through vs those who took some time off. People who had worked for a significant time, 3+ years, were more disciplined about school work and understood the true cost of the commitment to school, including forgoing the salaries that they used to get. They focused on what they wanted to do.
The students who went straight to law school also did well, but were much more stressed about…everything. Padding the resume with law school activities to make up for the lack of work experience. Questioning their decision to spend the money. Figuring out how to network. Worrying about the cost of school, loans, etc. And still trying to party like they did in undergrad.
If you work for a few years, you may decide to go to law school because you will know it’s the right choice for you. If you start and don’t like it, you can quit and know that you are still employable. If you start and like it, you will be comfortable with the decision even if the job market stinks when you graduate and you have a ton of debt.
And who knows, there may be some other dream job out there for you that won’t require three years of additional education and thousands of dollars in tuition.
Thoughts Please!!
Thank you all so much for your advice! It definitly gives me a lot to think about regarding what I would do in time off and how I would handle everything. The foreign language is a good point. I am nearly fluent in Spanish but it would be nice to go live and work in a Spanish speaking country for a while to really master it.
Again thank you all so much!
Jas
I used to fidget with my hands when I was nervous. What worked for me was replacing it with a less noticeable fidget. Now I wiggle my toes, instead. If you’re wearing closed toed shoes, it’s not very noticeable, and if you’re talking to someone face to face they won’t be looking at your feet anyway.
Cee
I ALWAYS play with my hair! I do it when partners and associates come to my office and talk to me or when I’m standing around waiting for someone/something. I notice other people noticing me and I try to stop but I just can’t help it! I grab small strands and pet it (my hair is slightly longer than shoulder length) or I twirl it. When no one is looking I put it under my nose and smooth it out like it’s a mustache (so professional, I know!). It’s so horrifying but it’s also comforting to me. I obviously need to stop!
KMM
That is a totally normal self soothing behavior. I put my hair up and down 9000 times a day. My boss asked about it once, I told her it was an anxiety thing, and that was the end of it. It’s a bad habit, but not the worst to have. I’ve been trying to focus on unclenching/clenching my thighs and butt instead when I’m somewhere it would be in appropriate to play with my hair, but in my office? Hair time.
Kaye 2
Back to the cuticles: Neutrogena hand cream (comes in a small tube) and a pair of small nail scissors to nip any offending cuticle in the bud so temptation to pick or bite is removed asap – and regular manicures.
j-non
Hypnosis! I swear it works. I am a terrible nail biter and I went to one session and it just STOPPED. Its been about a year and a half and I started again a few weeks ago during a particularly stressful time. So I will go back.
BUT IT TOTALLY WORKED! And was a unique, awesome experience too!
Margaret
Where do you live and what hypnotherapist did you use? How much did it cost? This is intriguing to me.
j-non
i live in Houston and went here: http://www.houstonhypnosis.com/about.html
It was about $200.
SRJ
I need some advice, ladies! I’m in law school, and today there was an unusual situation where I received my grade for a seminar even though the semester has not yet ended. My grade was OK — but it was also lower than what I was expecting, and I’m pretty disappointed about it. I’d really like to e-mail my professor, but don’t know what the most appropriate way of doing so would be. To be clear: I don’t want to complain about my grade, I don’t want to ask for a change – I in no way want to give the impression that my e-mail is a complaint. I just really want to know why my impression of my performance (which is usually accurate) was off from the professors’ evaluation (without of course phrasing it that way!). I’m thinking of sending an e-mail that basically says: since it’s so rare to get a grade before the semester ends, I’d love to have an opportunity to find out from you what were positive and negative aspects of my classroom performance while the semester is still fresh on your mind. In case anyone thinks it might matter to how the e-mail is sent, I’m a 3L, will be graduating in May, and I have taken classes with this professor before.
Thanks any and all for any advice you might have!
Scully
Email the dean in charge of grades/academics and ask if it’s okay to contact the professor even though the semester isn’t over; there may be a rule against doing so. If you get the go ahead, then email the professor for a conference.
ADS
I see nothing wrong with phrasing it the way you initially did: “I would like to understand why my assessment of my performance was so different from yours.” However, I’d have a conversation with the professor if possible, rather than an e-mail exchange: I think tone is important here, and e-mail will work against you in that regard. If you’ve taken classes with the professor before, do you have the kind of relationship where you can drop by during office hours, or stop to talk after class? I presume your grades in previous classes with this prof were better; hopefully that’s a good way to introduce the subject. I’d frame it as a good learning experience for you, to understand how he judged your performance.
Deb
I agree with this–conversation, not email. Email tone is tough to get right in this kind of circumstance.
Em
I’m a bit confused. Is all the work in for the semester/is there no final? Because I think the situation is vastly different depending on this. If yes, then it doesn’t really matter that the semester isn’t over – he was just diligent in grading and got his grades in early (which is unheard of in a law professor), so go him. In that case, I think you can just e-mail him and say you’d like to meet to discuss your work so that you know where you can improve in the future. This is a pretty standard request and, done politely and with no hint of asking for a grade change, perfectly appropriate.
If all the work isn’t in yet or you still have a final, I think you should be explicit about it. Hell, I’d probably just e-mail and say you think there was a mistake because you received a grade for a class that hasn’t finished; how do you get this sorted out?
cbackson
The last sentence of your first paragraph is key. I’m an adjunct, and MAN, there is nothing I hate more than students who clearly only want to meet with me to lobby for a grade change. A student who just wants some guidance on how to improve is someone I’m perfectly happy to meet with.
Valleygirl
I’m a part time prof too and second what cbackson said.
I always am happy to meet with students during office hours/a scheduled time to review their grade in the class and the reasons why the got a certain grade. Just don’t go in with the attitude that you’re going to argue yourself into a better grade or that you deserve a better grade just because. That always sets my teeth on edge.
Maddie Ross
Email the professor and ask if you could meet with him/her or schedule a time to meet with him/her during her office hours. Simply ask for a time to meet. If they press for a reason, say you want to discuss the class, but do not complain about it or your grade in an email. Do not make it a complaint about how you did, but rather a discussion of what you could do to improve. I did this for a grade I was not happy with my second year. I went and met with the professor during office hours. I remember, I couched it in terms of “this is a topic I will use a lot in my career as a litigator. I thought I understood this topic. What am I missing?” We discussed the problems with my exam after the fact. I, in fact, totally did not understand a concept in the class. I had it backwards and studied it wrong. My grade was not changed, but I did understand why it was what it was. And I now understand the topic (which was esp. helpful since it was a basic topic that is on the bar).
somewherecold
In my law school, professors needed a heads up if you were planning to come in to discuss a grade so that they could review your work, particularly if there was a final paper or exam that was largely making up the grade. The one time I asked a professor to discuss an exam with me when I thought I got lower than I deserved, I said something straightforward in an email, like “Prof., can I schedule some time to come in to get your feedback on my performance on the exam.” We scheduled a time, he had pulled and reviewed my exam beforehand, and we talked.
KC
Honestly, I’d let it go. You’re a 3L, so any constructive criticism isn’t going to help you in the future. You’re done with classes. Caveat: if your class included presentations, it’s worth finding out how you could improve those.
Anonymous
It can’t hurt. I actually got a grade changed in law school – I was surprised by a low grade in the class and asked to see my exam (the grade was based only on the exam, which was take home). Turns out the professor had mistakenly marked an answer wrong which was correct. But even if you deserved the grade you got, feedback can only help you.
one year left
ive done this, but not in the exact same situation (semester was over). My intention was not to angle for a higher grade – I just wanted some of the professor’s time to go over the exam with me because I thought I had done better. in the email, I said exactly that – that I wasn’t unhappy with the grade, but it was lower than I had expected and wanted to know where my weak points were (I want to focus on this subject after graduation.) thankfully, the prof seemed happy to go over it with me – took some time though, the prof is an adjunct and didn’t have much time.
as a side note, turns out I had completely blocked out the fact that I had been pressed for time in the exam and answered the last essay question very thinly. so unfortunately it really was “my bad”.
one year left
ive done this, but not in the exact same situation (semester was over). My intention was not to angle for a higher grade – I just wanted some of the professor’s time to go over the exam with me because I thought I had done better. in the email, I said exactly that – that I wasn’t unhappy with the grade, but it was lower than I had expected and wanted to know where my weak points were (I want to focus on this subject after graduation.) thankfully, the prof seemed happy to go over it with me – took some time though, the prof is an adjunct and didn’t have much time.
as a side note, turns out I had completely blocked out the fact that I had been pressed for time in the exam and answered the last essay question very thinly. so unfortunately it really was “my bad”.
Poopy
My complaints:
1.) People that solve printer jams by just printing to another printer and leaving the jam for everyone else to deal with.
2.) People that leave their soda cans, candy wrappers, etc. after meetings for other people to clean up.
3.) People who talk to themselves all day!
Consultant in NoVA
I agree with #1.
Re: #3…Could be me. I have to curb my tendency to think out loud when I’m sitting at my desk.
It also annoys me when people use the last paper towel in the kitchen and don’t put out a new roll. It takes 5 seconds!
Anonymous
I do number one all the time. Couldn’t fix a printer if my life depended on it. Sorry to everyone!
ADS
Then please, please, let someone know! Don’t just leave it until I print something I need quickly, and find the printer blinking and jammed.
Also, don’t be such a baby. Printers aren’t rocket science; they’re designed to be easily fixed. Don’t throw your hands up and declare yoruself incompetent – ask someone to show you how to check for the jam.
Lalala
I work with someone who talks to herself all day, talks to everyone midstream in her self-conversing without saying their name so you have to guess if she’s talking to you or not, and smacks her tongue against the roof of her mouth when she isn’t talking.
There have been many many times when I have completely tuned her out for my own sanity – even when she is clearly speaking to me. I cannot abide noise and since she has her own office it is doubly annoying that she won’t close her door so that the rest of us can do our work.
ARGH, lol.
I think she might be OCD since she cannot get any task done with constantly repeating details about it…
Honey Bear
I don’t know if I would start with “since it’s so rare to get a grade before the semester ends….” b/c that kind of puts the professor on the defense. But I think saying the part about wanting the prof’s opinion while the semester is still fresh in his mind is a perfectly appropriate thing to say.
On the other hand, it might not even be worth asking, especially since you aren’t trying to complain about the grade or have the grade changed.
E
I agree with the last part – if you’re honestly not trying to angle to have it changed, and you’re graduating this month never to take another graded law school class, I’d just drop it. It would be different if you were a 1L, but since you’re a 3L I don’t really see the point.
If you want to use this professor as a reference at some point, you could maybe have a broader conversation about the work you’ve done in that professor’s courses, and throw in a – “by the way, I was wondering how I could have improved in this latest course.”
Of course, if you think there might be an error, it’s always worth checking. In college I got a C in a class where I wasn’t really sure what grade I deserved — the final exam had some questions that were pretty subjective. That was my lowest grade ever and I spent a lot of time being upset about it, wondering if I should say anything and if so what. I ended up shooting off an email saying I thought I’d been doing better than C-quality work. Well, it turns out that instead of the 20/20 I’d earned in “section participation,” it got coded in his spreadsheet as 2/20 (just a typo) and actually I got an A!
Bad Habit Department
We had a department meeting today to address our bad habits. Apparently management all thought the complaints were ridiculous. We have this war going on between some of the assistants and the professional staff. The assistants are paid quite well and do nothing all day (e.g. one plays solitaire on her computer 90% of the time and no one says a word to her about it), yet when we have conversations in our offices that is just not acceptable because it distracts from the apparently intolerable workload the assistants have. Ugh- sorry, just had to vent.
Bunkster
Threadjack…
TJMaxx has an amazing collection of shoes right now. Over the weekend, I stopped into the one near my parents’ house and discovered a huge selection of Born sandals. They didn’t have my size in the style I wanted, though.
So today I went to the one near my apartment. I still got shut out on the Born shoe, but I found a gorgeous pair of Ralph Lauren open toe wedges (available in black, bone and brown) for $49 and a nice pair of aerosole slides for $29. If I find them online, I’ll post links.
They also had a beautiful pair of Ellen Tracy navy patent slingbacks for $29. I don’t own any navy, though.
Makeup Junkie
I love Born shoes – so comfy and very durable (I’m really hard on my shoes)
justvikki
for cuticle pickers:
I’m with you. Much improved, but still occassionally grossed out by my hands. The clipper tip and moisturizer tips work well, but I have a “negative reinforcement” product that’s our version of the bitter polish. LiquidBandage. Dab some on the minute you expose fresh skin and it burns like crazy. After 21 days of burning, you’ll find a reduced desire to pick. Note that the product leaves a nice, prime picking residue (the bandage), so you’ll have to remove that with nail polish remover for even more burning.
I’ve backslid some, thanks to a bad manicure, but it’s just the thumbs. And I picked up a bottle from Walgreens the afteroon.
Also, to camoflauge the carnage I used a deeper than normal color of polish. As in, instead of a nude nail I’ll use taupe.
LawyrChk
I catch myself clenching/grinding my teeth or clicking them together when I’m under a lot of pressure. Terrible habit that my dentist has been nagging me about for years and happens a lot more when I’m very busy at work.
KMM
I do this too (I’m all over this thread, I have a lot of bad habits!). I started wearing a retainer at home. At work I try to keep my mouth slightly open at my desk, or if I can’t, push my tongue to the roof of my mouth to keep me from clenching.
anon
i’m a big time jaw clencher, and after several years of cajoling (and showing me that my molars were flattening) my dentist finally convinced me to get a night guard, which i wear semi-regularly at night.
during the day, i massage my jaw muscles periodically which helps to loosen them up and reduce the propensity to clench.
Makeup Junkie
I am on a trial prep team with quite a few gum-smackers. I find it quite disgusting to hear what goes on in people’s mouths, but what can you do? I just keep the iPod on all day.
New PhD
I’m guilty of cuticle/nail biting, big time. I know it’s an awful habit and I’ve tried to stop so many times, but it’s a combination of nervous habit and OCD about seeing dry skin, like other commenters have mentioned. I’m going to try the constant hydration tactic and see how it goes. I’m finishing up in a lab setting, and I know any *real* job I get will be more critical of bad habits than my current crop of scientists. Speaking of scientists…
Here are some of the bad habits I’ve had to endure over the years; scientists really are clueless, that’s one true stereotype about us. I am not making these up.
– eating with mouth open during meetings and lunches.
– talking during said mouth-open eating session.
– scraping metal chairs across the tile floor. Think chalkboard, only louder and closer to your ear. The chairs can be picked up and moved, by the way.
– passing gas several times per day and never owning up to it.
– setting your ringer to “99 red balloons” and not being around to answer it.
– clearing your throat every 5 minutes, all day, even during meetings.
– doing drum solos with pens on the desk that is attached to my desk.
– having full conversations with someone else in a foreign language when other people in the room do not know that language.
– talking to yourself loudly enough that I think you’re talking to me.
– going for a run in the afternoon and then coming back to work without showering or changing your clothes.
– twirling and looking at your hair, and then putting it in your mouth.
– yawning really loudly, then proclaiming “Yawn!” just as loudly. Same thing for “Sneeze!” and “Cough!”
– wearing pants that are too small for you, then sitting down and exposing your “moon” to everyone else at work. Not sure if it’s a “habit,” but it’s gross and distracting.
eb
“- having full conversations with someone else in a foreign language when other people in the room do not know that language.”
Is this considered rude? (I’m asking seriously – not snarkily.) I never considered that this would be more distracting or offensive to an office than holding a full conversation in English (which anyways if it’s a personal phone call is best to minimize in an open office, or at least keep your personal volume low).
Ru
Yes, this is rude, unless one of the people speaking the foreign language cannot communicate in the common language.
Anonymous
Yeah – my officemate has actually asked me to have work-related conversations with our foreign offices in the local language rather than English when possible, because she’s less distracted when she can’t understand what’s being said. So this definitely isn’t a universal bother – in fact it sounds like a complaint of a person who doesn’t speak other languages and feels left out or insecure.
scientist
I agree with New PhD on the annoyance of other people in the room having extended conversations in another language that no one else speaks. If my work-related conversation in English segues into talking about plans for the weekend, I’ll get dirty looks from my office mates before long, but if no one can understand my conversation, I’d probably be more apt to keep having a non-work-related conversation in the shared office because no one would know… I’m not going to call someone out for a 45-minute conversation if I can’t understand it, even if I highly doubt she has 45 minutes of science to discuss with the friend who stopped by.
HSDC
I’m with New PhD, scientist, and Ru. It’s rude to have a full conversation in a language that one person present does not understand. (Of course, phone conversations are different.)
Anonymous, feeling left out is kind of part of it, and it’s poor etiquette to have a conversation that blatantly excludes one person. I don’t see where you are getting the idea that it sounds like a complaint of an insecure person.
tsippi
My late father, the most generous man in the world, spoke 10 languages. His English was not very good; he learned it when he was 30. Nevertheless, he never spoke a language in front of anyone who couldn’t understand what he was saying. Conversely, if people were speaking a language in front of him that he understood, he told them he understood what they were saying. I still remember him sitting at a public pool with cousins, speaking English, not Polish. Meanwhile, if people in the elevator were speaking Russian, he made a joke in Russian when he got on. Why? If people can’t understand what you’re saying, they worry you’re talking about them. Conversely, if you don’t tell someone you understand what he is saying, you’re basically eaves dropping.
New PhD
This is what I mean, thanks for the great story about your father; it seems like he was very generous and made every attempt to be inclusive.
My main complaint about foreign language conversations at work involves communal spaces, where everyone is supposed to be able to join the conversation. During meetings and at lunchtime, we sit down together at the same table. When two people are having a conversation in language X, and someone who doesn’t understand language X sits down for lunch or to prepare for a meeting, what is she supposed to do? Completely ignore the first two people? Attempt to join in even though she doesn’t understand? Interrupt the first two people in a commonly understood language? None of these solutions seems polite or appropriate. The third person can’t join in and definitely feels excluded. It has little to do with feeling insecure and everything to do with exclusion, whether it’s intentional or not.
We have a total of seven languages spoken in my workplace, but everyone knows the common language (English) and can speak it reasonably well. The bosses only know English, and they get quite cranky when they catch people having exclusionary conversations in another language, so I don’t think it’s just me here at work who’s bothered by it.
juno
I’m on the fence about the foreign language one. I used to work in an office as a legal assistant where many of the other legal assistants were Hispanic and often spoke Spanish in the break room – it definitely created a barrier, and sometimes that barrier felt deliberate (I was much younger than the other assistants, etc., and only fit in so much while I was there). At times it certainly felt deliberately rude, and that sucked. On the other hand, I spent much of my childhood in Germany, and am fluent in German. I speak it sometimes at home, but not very frequently – and sometimes it’s just nice to get to speak my childhood language with someone, and has nothing to do with excluding other people. We are just having a private conversation, and it’s enjoyable to have it in a language we both feel comfortable speaking in. So where the conversation is not deliberately exclusionary, I don’t think it’s a bad habit or particularly distracting. If someone is on the phone in a foreign language where I can hear them, it’s actually preferable to me since it’s easier to tune out a conversation you can’t understand and there’s no way in which that can make a person feel excluded.
DietCoke1
Not sure that this is a bad habit or just my own pet peeve, but it really irks me when someone comes to desk just to chat about something unimportant/ non-work related when I am eating my lunch at my desk. If I am eating lunch at my desk, it means I’m too busy to go somewhere else to eat. But the offenders don’t get the hint that I am busy, and my mouth is full, and I don’t want to chat, and instead hover over my desk and try to guess what I’m eating. Stop breathing on my sandwich and go away. I’m usually a friendly person, but this bugs me to no end.
anon
why not just say sorry but you are on a deadline or something and cut ifoff?
DietCoke1
That usually does work. You’re right. My comment was more of a vent than wondering how to handle it. These are the same people that when they come over and find you’re on the phone (on a legitimate work related conversation), they’ll stand around waiting to see how long you’ll be on the phone. I don’t know- if I walk over to see someone and they’re on the phone or chewing while simultaneously typing, I turn around and come back later. I completely understand you’re at work to be accessible, but it always seems to be a really inconsequential or non-work topic. I’m sure I do things to irritate people too, so maybe I’m just being a grump.
anon
I currently have an employee who has an office near the restroom. She ONLY asks questions/help/advice on a project when I am on my way to the bathroom (and I go a lot – new mom, pumping). Disturbs me on many levels, (1) how many questions does she have that she is too lazy to ask when I don’t cross by her doorway, and (2) generally, if someone is on their way to the restroom, it’s typically not a leisure walk!
Liz (Europe)
I’ve got an OCD, a health problem, several phobias and a ton of bad habits/quirks. I was picking my nails and being clumsy with my tea – during the job interview! The law firm had to be nuts to hire me. On the other hand, it would seem all of my colleagues were hand-picked for their brains and skills and are unusual; it’s like the partners are totally lacking any prejudiced ideas, quite amazing.
In a certain sense I also think having a quirk or two can add to your image, your brand as it were; awkward genius, workaholic, brilliant coffee-and-nicotine insomniac, etc. In the end, if you’re just yourself and honest, people learn to appreciate you for who you are – though that, of course, is no excuse for rudeness. Probably helps that I’m at a small firm though, I think big firms have a certain preference for uniform normalcy.
also in Europe
Do you mind telling us where in Europe you are, Liz? I’m a regular poster on here – I’m American but currently live in Germany…
anon
I’d like input on mine please. I like to take off my shoes. But I realize it’s unprofessional and not something men do. But I’m alone at my cube desk, til someone walks in and catches me. How bad is that?
Also, I’ve always had an office before, and now have a cube. I do a lot of international business, and need to project with authority on calls. Not that I’m yelling, but when I’ve tried to use a quiet voice to respect the people around me, the people on phone ask what’s wrong or if I’m okay. Don’t know a solution- there aren’t enough private rooms to take all my calls, and I hate being a bad neighbor, but this is the condition the company has created. Thoughts?
To the earlier discussion about air freshener- please get the natural kind that are only oil and alcohol. Some people are allergic to toxic chemicals in mainstream products, others such as myself just highly prefer not to be forced to ingest them. I won’t lecture on the potential risks there, but pay the extra few bucks for the pure stuff- the last a long time. I even travel with one because my beloved spouse has bad gas. We have every variety:)
Bunkster
I can’t speak to the phone issue, but I take my shoes off at work, too. I’m also in a small cube and I spend most of my day at my desk.
Plus, I hate shoes, in general. I don’t care how comfortable they are. They’re still less comfortable than going barefoot.
I don’t think it bothers anyone here. But I’ll have to investigate.
ANon
one colleague made a comment once… that’s what got me thinking about it- but thanks glad to know I”m not alone! Dress shoes not comfortable.
Para
Wow, I’m amazed at how many other people have problems with picking at their cuticles. I thought I was the only one!
I’ve been trying to break the habit by keeping them moisturized with a little dab of chapstick on each. Seems to moisturize better than lotion, but less greasy than oils. I also have a bit of a chapstick obsession (chapped lips drive me crazy), so I always have it with me.
I’ve also been trying to keep my nails filed shorter so I’m less able to pick. I’d love to get manicures, but that’s not in the budget right now, and I tend to pick at any imperfections and wreck them anyway.