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Our daily workwear reports suggest one piece of work-appropriate attire in a range of prices.
Happy Friday! This dress certainly fits the Frugal Friday theme, as it's only $28 (marked down from $52). It's highly rated, available in three size ranges, and machine washable. The stock for the regular sizes is low — just size 12 and 18 in navy are left — but in petite there's 4P-16P in black and navy, and plus has 16W-24W in black and navy. It's $28 at Kohl's. Briggs Scoopneck Sheath Dress
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Sales of note for 9.10.24
- Nordstrom – Summer Sale, save up to 60%
- Ann Taylor – 30% off your purchase
- Banana Republic Factory – Up to 50% off everything + extra 20% off
- Bergdorf Goodman – Save up to 40% on new markdowns
- Boden – 15% off new styles
- Eloquii – $29 and up select styles; up to 50% off everything else
- J.Crew – Up to 50% off wear-to-work styles; extra 30% off sale styles
- J.Crew Factory – 40-60% off everything; extra 60% off clearance
- Lo & Sons – Warehouse sale, up to 70% off
- M.M.LaFleur – Save 25% sitewide
- Spanx – Lots of workwear on sale, some up to 70% off
- Talbots – BOGO 50% everything, includes markdowns
- White House Black Market – 30% off new arrivals
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Anonymous
Female bosses and aggressiveness. Thoughts?
Anon
?
anon
Troll?
Ellen
Yay! Fruegel Friday’s! I LOVE Fruegel Fridays and this $28 scoopneck dress. Great pick, Kat and Kate!!!!!
As for the OP, we have been down this road before. We as female bosses, must temper our “aggressiveness”, and instead, call it “assertiveness”. Men are NOT anxious to date or work for “agressive” women, but “assertive” women are OK, as long as men can get along with us. I managed an attorney who called me aggressive, but that was ONLY b/c he was useless and did NO real work, other then carry my shoes and breifcase to court. We at our firm do NOT pay men (or women) to do nothing but that. If he could NOT see that, then big deal I say. FOOEY on men like him. Even in a relationship, we have to be assertive, but NOT aggressive. Men like my EX were abel to deal with me being assertive. Once they go over the line, we MUST be assertive and get to the point at hand. ONCE we learn to do that, we will be fine. Mary Tyler Moore was PERFECT in her role to be assertive, but NOT aggressive. YAY for Mary TYLER Moore!!!!
AnonZ
How about, “bosses in general and aggressiveness”?
It takes some level of aggression to get into leadership positions. You may notice it more in women if you have been socially conditioned to expect men to be aggressive by nature and women to be more passive.
I suspect you may be a troll, and also new here. If you really want to get people riled up, I would suggest asking a question along the lines of, “Our intern is wearing a $2,000 dress with an exposed zipper; she also has a band-aid on her face, a water bottle on her desk, and a 1K engagement ring. Should I tell her she’s being unprofessional?”
AnonyMom
I’m not sure this is trolling. I believe there is evidence that female bosses are harsher on female employees than men.
My own experience isn’t that they are “more aggressive” in general but that they can be less sympathetic to women’s work-life balance. There are pretty obvious reasons why that may be.
Anonymous
see? Like this. This is a better tr*ll. Pretend that there’s ‘evidence’ of something that gets people reviled up without actually linking to peer reviewed research.
Anonymous
Which is trolling? Bringing up actual articles and statistics about exactly this (is the NYTimes a decent enough source for you? http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/10/business/10women.html) and trying to have an intelligent discussion about it, or just shutting down the discussion altogether by screaming sexism because you don’t like it?
I don’t know if it’s true. Some studies indicate there is truth to it. Maybe those studies are flawed. Who knows? Maybe it’s a relevant topic of discussion!!
Anonymous
Did you even read article/study you cited? You said “female bosses are harsher on female employees than men” whereas the article discusses that women who bully are more likely to target women vs. men. Unless you’re going to say ‘all women bosses bully’ (which in and of itself is a preposterous claim), you claimed one thing and linked to research that said something entirely different.
AnonyMom
I don’t think that an article that claims that female bully bosses are harsher on women than men refutes my point. I did not say that all women bosses are bullies.
It is reasonable to discuss why a bully female boss might be harsher on women than men…or whether that’s even true or not. It’s odd to call anyone who tries to discuss this on a website aimed at female professionals a troll.
Anonymous
discussing stereotypes of women bosses as though they were true is not actually a legit topic for discussion.
AnonyMom
I don’t see how couching a statement in terms of “some evidence” and “can” and asking questions is stating something is “true”.
I think this is a good place to discuss whether there is any basis for these stereotypes or whether they are all bunk based on societal expectation.
But my sharing personal experience of a bullying female boss being harsher on me than my male colleagues (something even the men said) is not trolling. Sorry if it doesn’t fit your worldview. I’m a female manager in a very male field, and I’m very aware of the stereotypes associated with women in power. Denying that some women in power are incentivized to be nastier to women than men doesn’t change reality.
Anonymous
except you didn’t use “some” and “can” you used “is” and “are” re- read your own post at 12:32
AnonyMom
3:32, I think my intent was pretty clear. I did use “can” to describe my own experience, and I prefaced my first sentence with “I believe there is evidence”, which should make it clear that I’m trying to have an evidence-based discussion and making blanket statements.
I maintain that this is a valuable topic for discussion, but that can’t happen if we’re focused on nitpicking semantics and calling people trolls. It’s unfortunate, because whether we discuss htis topic or not the stereotypes remain. Exploring them in a relatively safe space is a good way for developing strategies to dispel them.
Anonymous
Thank you AnonyMom. +1
Anonymous
that dress/diamond ratio is out of whack
Anon
Vague posts and double standards. Thoughts?
lawsuited
We trolling, they hate us…
MB
Thinly-veiled pot-stirring: bad.
nutella
eyeroll
Anon
thoughts:
sexism
troll
get a life
anonymous
Male bosses and aggressiveness? Thoughts?
Not that Anne, the other Anne
It’s always fun to take statements like this and see if I can turn it into Man Who Has It All tweets.
(If anyone has not discovered Man Who Has It All, get thee to Google posthaste.)
Anonymous
Thank you!!!
Sober
Reposting for yesterday’s poster who was asking about substance abuse (I didn’t see your post until this morning):
I hope its not too late in the day (or early in the morning) for you to see this.
I am an attorney – a partner at a midsized firm – and I am 19 months sober. It was the scariest and best decision of my life.
I sounded just like you. Functional alcoholic with a history of alcoholism on each side. I didn’t think I had a problem because who doesn’t have a drink at every firm happy hour/networking event/date/dinner with friends? Except for me those became an every night occurrence and I had 3 glasses of wine to everyone else’s 1. I won’t go into more details now, but am happy to share if you (or anyone else out there) would benefit from the story.
I literally thought I would die if I got sober. That my career would tank.
Neither of these things happened.
I am more than happy to talk to you if you would like. Comment here and I will drop you my email in a reply comment.
Go to AA. Google “therapist and substance abuse” to find someone who can also work with you.
You will never regret it.
Amanda
Congrats! This is really inspirational.
Amy
Thank you so much for sharing your story. Congratulations on maintaining your sobriety.
anon
Thank you for sharing. I just read that thread – I hope the OP sees it this morning and gets some help.
Lynn
Thanks for sharing this.
Iris
I did it this month to see if I could and now I am starting to realize that 1. yes I drank at least one drink (usually 3 though) every night and it wasn’t just because of the holidays 2. the world has continued to spin (even with Trump!) even though I am not drinking 3. This should probably be a permanent thing.
I am similar. I don’t black out. I don’t miss work or family activities because of it. In fact I aim to be at the office by 8 and have done it once this month. I used to think my drinking was the cause of my lateness but turns out it’s not the cause of all my flaws (also, damn…now I have to figure out what is). It’s on both sides of my family. I’ve saved probably around $400 this month (that’s all gone to paying student loan debt!) but that’s been about the only change besides the fact I’ve been very hydrated. I got the cold/flu (haven’t been sick in years) so it’s not like drinking put me in poorer health that I was noticing. There’s a part of me that felt like I should have a perfect body, workout program, mental state, weekly food plan, organized clean home, etc. But I know there’s not one health benefit to drinking and it costs money! So that will have to suffice for now.
Haven’t really discussed or shared this with others but I’ve been keeping a daily journal of what I have noticed has changed but mostly that most things did not. I’ve been dreading the end of January because I will have to decide if this is permanent or not.
Anonymous
Why? Must everything be in extremes? Decide at the end of January if you want to do it again in February. See how that goes.
Yes
For some of us, yes. Kudos to you if you’re not among us.
Godzilla
Not everything. But some things may have to be “extreme”. That’s just life.
anon
There was a helpful post on this a while ago, maybe in the weight loss context? Some people are abstainers and some people are moderators. If you’re naturally an abstainer, then you will have more longterm success with completely cutting something out than with trying to limit it.
Iris
It’s true the forever factor seems to be a difficult piece for me and everyone. I like that advice of taking it month by month. I guess I don’t mean I need to decide at the end of January whether it’s permanent as much as I need to decide what goals I have regarding this, if any, for February 1.
Sober
No you don’t.
I was sober for 6 months and decided to go back to it. I didn’t drink as much as I was, but I did notice some of the negative things I had forgotten about (i.e. my intense anxiety and depression – both of which are linked to alcohol use) starting to creep back in. That is when I decided that it wasn’t worth it and to really give sobriety a real shot.
But I have always told myself that its just for now. I don’t know what tomorrow or any other day will bring. Right now, sobriety have had far more gifts than negative aspects, so I maintain it. But I never tell myself “this is always and forever” – because who knows. And guess what? If I do decide to drink again, I can always get sober again too.
Good luck! xoxo
Anonymous
Hi Sober, I’m the OP from last night. Thank you (and everyone else) for sharing. It is really helpful knowing that I’m not alone. I threw everything out last night and am debating whether to call a therapist I found in my area through the MM website. I know people who have successfully done this alone (no AA, no therapy), and that is my preferred course…I am just not a joiner or a sharer. I also know that is probably not the best way to go about it, but I think any way is probably better than continuing down this path. We’ll see. Thank you again.
Anonymous
Call right now. You already failed at going it alone.
New Tamp
Check out HipSobriety. It may be better suited to you.
I have for years done the one and off thing with thinking of stopping. I am now at almost 8 months without. I didn’t go to AA. I just got to a point where I knew it was enough and for me that was all I needed. EVERYONE IS DIFFERENT. You will need to figure out what you need to maintain your own sobriety. But try to be open to trying different ways.
LC
One of the reasons you drink may be BECAUSE you are alone/deal with things alone. Time to look outward on this one.
Don’t give up on therapy because of a poor experience in the past. Therapists vary wildly, and sometimes it takes time to make a good fit.
Good job for taking the first step. We’re proud of you. Good luck, and keep us posted.
AnonPara
I’ve been sober 8 years. Very similar story. Highly functional alcoholic. Legal field. Lived alone. No one knew how much I looked forward to having that drink. After trying to stay sober on my own, I did start going to AA. I, too, am not a joiner or a sharer. But I didn’t want to live the way I was living anymore. I found meetings where I could relate to others. Not all meetings are the same. You don’t have to share. You can just listen. When I heard someone say the things that I was feeling, I didn’t feel so alone. And that gave me hope. From the outside no one but those closest to me see a change, but the way I now feel about myself and knowing that I don’t need or want a drink anymore is freedom. I am wishing the best to you. You can do it. Just start.
cbackson
You need other people to do this – for accountability and so you won’t feel so alone.
Sober
Seconding the HipSobriety recommendation – Holly was not into AA and writes/shares a lot about her experience doing so (FYI – I did not do AA either!). She also runs HipSobriety school, which is a great resources.
She and Laura McKowen host the HOME Podcast which I listen to regularly and is also a great resource for non-AA, non-therapy recovery tactics and stories.
Sober
I responded before reading these other replies. And while it is true that you need a community for accountability, AA is not the only road. I’ve looked into several as AA did not feel right for me (although I gained a lot from the 12 steps)
Y12SR (Yoga of 12 Step Recovery) is kind of “meeting light” – focusing more on the ways that yoga can help us maintain sobriety, but in a much different atmosphere than a typical meeting.
Refuge Recovery is another resource – there is Noah Levine’s book, and also meetings, but through his book you can learn to get going on your own (he does recommend someone like a sponsor to work through the inventories with you, but you can use a close friend rather than another RR member).
Tommy Rosen has a great community through FB that supports each other through his Recovery 2.0 movement. His book is fantastic and the online conference is free twice a year, offering great interviews with amazing speakers in the area of recovery (he is currently releasing these as a podcast as well).
I’d like to remind everyone here that sobriety is a deeply personal journey. Many people never find it because they are told AA is the only way. It is not – Thankfully.
Anonymous
I was able to quit drinking without AA but not able to address my other issues without AA. I am convinced that if I drink again, I may black out (again) and no longer willing to risk killing myself or someone else in a car accident.
Frozen Peach
I’m late to this party because work has been crazy. But I’ve been sober for almost 5 years, and I’m an attorney, and I got sober with the help of AA. And if you want to talk anytime, email me at frozenpeachjd at the mail of the google.
If you’ve been to one AA meeting, you’ve been to one AA meeting. Please don’t give up if you don’t like the first few you go to. I do not consider myself a joiner or a sharer, most of the time, and many of my family and friends have no clue I ever had a problem. You can go and say nothing (though don’t be spooked if people are really, really friendly to you– it’s just the culture), you can just listen, you can just read the materials, etc. If you’re curious about AA or sobriety but going to a meeting sounds off-putting, I suggest any of the following books, all available via Amazon:
https://www.amazon.com/Drinking-Love-Story-Caroline-Knapp-ebook/dp/B000FC1HSC/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1485546643&sr=1-1&keywords=drinking+a+love+story
https://www.amazon.com/Alcoholics-4th-World-Services-Inc-ebook/dp/B00H2YFYJ4/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1485546661&sr=1-2&keywords=AA+big+book
https://www.amazon.com/Alcoholics-4th-World-Services-Inc-ebook/dp/B00H2YFYJ4/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1485546661&sr=1-2&keywords=AA+big+book
https://www.amazon.com/Living-Sober-World-Services-Inc-ebook/dp/B00KVLFBPM/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1485546773&sr=1-1&keywords=living+sober
https://www.amazon.com/Language-Letting-Go-Hazelden-Meditation-ebook/dp/B00BS02CLG/ref=pd_sim_351_20?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=EW52NE3GQXT9ZRCAB0Y2
Anonymous
For those functional alcoholics telling themselves they’re doing fine and no need to stop, anecdata: My grandfather was a successful CPA with his own business and functional alcoholic his entire adult life. His drinking every single night caused relationship problems with his wife and children, but most people never knew. Then he became very ill and died 6 months later of liver cirrhosis at age 60. His brother died the same way 5 years earlier. This does take a real toll on your mind and body even if you do not see that from your current perspective. Best of luck getting help.
Amanda
Boot help, please! I am looking for knee high boots with a heel (3″ and lower) and a skinny shaft. I’ve tried 14.5″ and bigger shafts, and they gap around my leg or weirdly slouch down. I checked the Lord & Taylor site, and the few that I found on there in my size don’t always have the circumference. I have been looking for 2 years and haven’t found anything!
I generally wear black or brown boots, but if there are other neutral colors, I’d be interested. Thanks!
Anon
Get Aquatalia boots. They’re expensive, but buy one pair and take good care of them, and you’ll never have to buy boots again. I have skinny calves and had never owned boots that fit properly before I splurged on the Aquatalias.
Torin
+1
It was a splurge, and I still squirm to think about how much they cost. But they fit so exactly how I wanted them to, and they’re gorgeous. I’m wearing them now and I feel like a boss.
Constant Reader
Try La Canadienne. I have small calves and ankles and I have no gaps. Zappos lets you search for LC by shaft and heel height. Expensive, but so, so worth it — and mine are suede and waterproof, and look great after four years of snow and salt.
Amanda
Thanks! I got a pair of La Canadienne. The Aquatalia ones weren’t available in my size, but I’ll keep them in mind for next season.
Boots
Agree with Aquitalia and La Canadienne. Since styles vary from year to year and circumferences vary on different styles, I have called the manufacture in the past and asked for their recs for narrow calves.
Also realize that many of these boots are not supposed to be like the the skin tight, non-weather worthy Stuart Weitzman styles. Extra space around the calf is sometimes ok for extra socks. And some of the styles are supposed to slouch.
Cat
Piggybacking: I just got my first pair of Aquatalia boots (40% off from Nordstrom!) and am curious if I should pre-treat. They’re black suede and purport to be waterproof, but if there’s a spray or something that I should use before wearing outdoors, please advise!
(I also got a new pair of Uggs – should I treat those too?)
LC
Good question.
I am extra careful with my pricey boots, so the first time I got my Aquatalias I decided to bring the to my cobbler every year to pre-treat at the beginning of winter. I did it one year. And the next year, they said… why not buy the spray bottle and do it yourself! There’s nothing fancy to it.
So, yes. Every year at the beginning of the fall/winter season, I brush my suede boots/shoes, clean spots with my suede eraser or a dab of diluted vinegar in a cloth, let dry…. and then put two coats of suede protectant… drying well between coats. Ideally, you continue to spot clean your boots throughout winter, and definitely remove salt. And at the end of the season I clean carefully, dry, store.
Cat
Thanks. Is there a particular brand of protectant that you were recommended to use? There’s an Ugg branded one, but I’d rather not pay for the label…
Anonymous
Whatever is on sale? Same chemicals. Probably have Kiwi for suede in my closet right now, along with a little kiwi kit with a suede brush and suede “eraser”.
Follow the directions on the bottle…. Don’t soak, hold proper distance away when spraying. Do outside/on porch is possible as chemicals aren’t nice.
Your boots will hold up very well, even without the extra steps. Do try to get salt off them when you get home though.
Mrs. Jones
I have some black suede Van Eli boots that don’t gap on my skinny calves. It’s about a 2″ heel.
NYNY
Ted & Muffy (terrible name, great boots) makes custom calf size boots, so you order by both shoe size and circumference in cm. I have two pairs for my big muscular calves, and they are fantastic quality. Spendy, but totally worth it.
Anonymous
Search Zappos, they have shaft circumference as a search option. I found 61 knee high boots with a 1 to 2-3/4″ heel with a 12″ -to 13-3/4″ shaft circumference. Their free returns are nice.
PEN
Boulder, CO vacation advice? My husband and two kids are joining me for one week in August. I’ll be there for a conference on the UC campus. Thinking about renting a house. Any suggestions on areas? Walkable to campus would be great, but I can rent a car or bicycle if needed. Want to stay some where that feels like a get away. Things to do with toddlers? Thank you!!
MountainWestForLife
Rocky Mountain national park is amazing. You have options that range from a quick drive through to short hikes to overnight stays. I’d look into that. Boulder is known for it’s rock climbing. If you have ever climbed a ladder then you can rock climb and many places rent gear. An indoor gym might feel less intimidating.
It’s a beautiful place.
Sydney Bristow
I loved Rocky Mountain National Park! We drove through it in one long day, stopping at most of the viewpoints and stops. It’s beautiful and so varied. It’s amazing to see the changes the higher up you go. Highly recommend!
Denver AD
With toddlers, shoot down to Denver (or have your husband and kids do it while your at work). There’s a wonderful children’s museum literally next door to a fun aquarium. The zoo is also great, and literally next door to the Museum of Nature and Science. It’s a short drive and they could be back when you are done with your work day.
ArenKay
Ditto all these great suggestions. It might not be in your budget, but the neighborhood by Chautauqua park is gorgeous (great hiking, even for toddlers), and still an easy bike ride to the CU campus.
NYNY
There’s a year-round butterfly pavilion between Boulder & Denver – maybe in Broomfield? Great for toddlers, but fun for adults, too.
Anonymous
RMNP is great, but be cautious about flying there and doing a day trip to even higher elevations right away. Doing that is how we discovered that my daughter doesn’t handle altitude well. And cleaning up the back seat of the rental car was not fun!
Brrrr
What is the warmest jacket you can wear in the office?
My office is business casual/formal – doesn’t have to be a suit but you need a third piece. I am so cold wearing a cardigan or a suit jacket that I often wear my pea coat on top in the office.
Also, the coat is roomier/longer and therefore warmer than a jacket, and has pockets!
Anonymous
You cannot be wearing a pea coat around the office!! If you are too cold in a suit jacket or blazer, try a wool one, wear a cashmere sweater under it, wear a camisole, drape a scarf around your shoulders, but you cannot wear an outdoor coat around inside all day.
Anonymous
My theory is if the office is unprofessional enough to make it cold enough for me to require a coat they can deal with the consequences. I have a huge fleece blanket at my desk and have no shame about looking like a granny in a nursing home at my desk. YMMV. But layering will help. I have a collection of long sleeve heat tech tops I wear all winter.
Anonymous
Try wearing under layers instead of more bulky layers on top? Silk long johns or similar.
TorontoNewbie
What about wearing a silk undershirt?
Amy
Are you cold everywhere in the building, or just in your office or cubicle?
There’s a post here about people using heating pads/space heaters in their offices to stay warm. In my last job, our offices were freezing in general, but my office was like the Arctic. I had a space heater as it was the only way I could stay warm enough to work.
I would try wearing a baselayer under your work clothes – silk and ultra-lightweight wool baselayer pieces are available online or at outdoor stores like REI. Alternatively, you could look for warmer blazers. I have blazers that are heavyweight wool tweed with a liner and they’re so warm I sometimes don’t even need a coat on top (although it generally doesn’t get super-cold where I live). Pendleton is a great source for wool workwear in different weights. Wearing your coat at work isn’t a solution :-) You’ll look like you’re constantly about to dash out the door.
Anon
I have some wool blazers from Brooks Brothers that are SUPER warm. On very cold days, I’ll layer a button down and a lightweight sweater underneath, and pair with a double-serge wool pencil skirt, tights, and knee high boots. Preppy warmth for the win!
trefoil
Cashmere/wool blazer. Layered with wool long underwear, wool socks, pants silk undershirt, merino sweater, scarf. Tall boots under trousers. Also, add a wrap–I use one as a third layer on office days, or a fourth layer for particularly cold circuit courtrooms.
Parfait
I have a polarfleece blazer that I adore. Business casual = yes, business formal = no. But it’s so cozy.
Another question about drinking
I think I’m an alcoholic who is not a problem drinker. Is that a thing? And does it matter? I drink 1-2 drinks per night, every night, without fail. Probably half of the time it’s one drink and the other half of the time it’s two. I’ve been doing this for years. I don’t think about drinking during the day but when I get home, I just want one with dinner. I get horribly hungover if I have more than two, so I only rarely do that. I can’t decide if this is a problem or if I’m just being overly critical of myself and need to chill out.
Anonymous
Chill out. You aren’t drinking a lot, your drinking isn’t causing any problems. If you’re worried, cut it out for a week and see how it goes but no, you aren’t an alcoholic and idk why you’d want to pathologize your normal behavior like that.
Another question about drinking
My dad was a for real pass-out-on-the-floor-every-night alcoholic. So I think I’m anxious and overly vigilant because of that.
Anonymous
Then I do think you are right to be more aware of your drinking. You are at higher risk.
Why not just try to back down a bit, and see how you feel?
Since alcohol decreases anxiety, you may need another outlet, so think about starting some after work exercise, or mindfulness exercises.
Anon
You don’t sound excessively anxious. You sound appropriately interested and concerned about whether your personal behavior might damaging to your health. Everyone should do that, whether it’s alcohol, sugar, skin cancer checks, what have you.
Anonymous
I understand why you’re overly anxious but really, you sound completely fine.
I only drink when I’m with friends/socializing/going out. I don’t really enjoy drinking when I’m just at home alone making dinner. For me, alcohol is a very social celebration kind of thing. Maybe you could try making a few boundaries for yourself and see how you feel.
Anonymous
You’re not an alcoholic. Calm down.
Anon
I want the phrase “calm down” banned from this site. It’s so unnecessarily hostile. I know you think everyone else is a moron, but why not try some compassion if you think someone’s post is dumb?
Anonymous
She should calm down! How is that not compassionate?!? She is pointlessly worried about something that is not a problem- calming down would be a really good thing to do!
Just because people aren’t crafting some perfectly supportive response that meets all of your warm and fuzzy standards doesn’t mean they don’t care or aren’t offering advice from a helpful place.
Must women only communicate with kitten with heart eyes emojis?
Anon
Would you speak to your boss that way? “How’s the report coming along?” “OMG, calm down, I’d said earlier it’s fine.”
How about your kid? “Mom, I’m scared of my closet.” “Calm down, it’s obviously nothing.”
How about your best friend? “I’m so worried about Trump that I actually think a nuclear war might happen.” “Calm down, you’re just being crazy.”
Calm down literally never helps anyone ever. You’ll probably learn this if you really do speak to people in your personal life that way and they all start hanging out with you less.
Anonymous
Nope! Because she isn’t my boss. And I absolutely would tell my kid or best friend to calm down. Sometimes people should calm themselves.
But I’m glad you choose to tone police good intentioned good advice by implying I have no friends. Great credibility points there.
Iris
Meh she did ask “if she should just chill out” but I see where the phrase could grate on nerves and distract from the point.
Anonna
+1
Anonna
To clarify, my +1 is in agreement that “calm down” is not the way we should be addressing each other. It’s dismissive and disrespectful. So much so that it’s a theme in comedy, i.e., telling someone to calm down just makes them more pissed off.
So why use it? Just calm down if you think you need to use that phrase.
Anononope
Once I told my husband I would divorce him if he ever told me to “calm down” again. When in the history of the world has anyone ever been told, dismissively, “calm down!” and thought “oh hey, that’s great advice. now I am calm”? …never.
LC
I actually appreciate this tangent discussion about he phrase “calm down”, and realize that I use it occasionally and it is totally, absolutely useless and if nothing else… causes the person you say it to to be more irritated… as if they aren’t being listened. So why do I say it? Totally no idea…. It is condescending.
Thanks for the education! I will try to watch this in myself…
Anonymous
Oh, me! I am very high strung and have anxiety issues. I trust my SO 100% to support and validate me when I need it, and I also trust him to be a good sanity check when my anxiety gets out of hand. Every once in a while when something feels world-ending and throws me into a panic, he gently takes me by the shoulders, looks me in the eye and says “Calm down. It’s ok, but you need to calm down.” And you know what? I do calm down when that happens, and then we discuss the situation at length later.
So I think it can be dismissive but can also be compassionate.
Anonymous
I suspect others here might disagree, but if you’re having 1 glass a night consistently and don’t have the urge to drink more or at any other time, I would not consider this a problem. If you were consistently wishing that 1-2 glasses turns into 3+, or struggling to keep it under control, I might think otherwise. But outwardly this seems like controlled, moderate drinking. Maybe try cutting it for a week or two and see how it makes you feel.
Anonymous
I don’t think you’re an alcoholic but you are drinking quite a bit more than doctors recommend. Why don’t you try cutting back? If you’re an unable to do that easily, it’s a sign you may need help.
Anonymous
She says she is drinking roughly 11 drinks a week. Doctors recommend 7. This isn’t actually a big deal at all.
Anon
Correction, doctors recommend no more than 7. 7=/=11. OP, the message boards can’t answer this question for you. There are a lot of women here who have admitted to drinking more than is recommended, and that might not be right for you. Talk to your doctor or cut back.
Anonymous
Yeah I can do math too. this isn’t a big deal. Any cardiologist will tell you the right amount of red meat to eat is none. You don’t pipe up on every meal planning thread to suggest chili is unhealthy. Stop moralizing.
Anon
I seriously don’t get why people are encouraging someone who thinks they drink too much to just keep on going. I know this site skews more towards high-achieving alcohol-dependence, but OP, you really need to take your concerns elsewhere. Talk to friends, family, or a physician – anyone you know will give you straight talk without enabling or overreacting.
For Real!
Anon at 9:41, I’m with you!! I can’t believe this feedback!! If OP is concerned, not to mention has family history, how are people telling her to keep going and ‘calm down’?!
OP, you sound concerned. I am not experienced in this world, so I don’t have good advice, but do not – and I repeat DO NOT – just ‘calm down’ and move past this. I will defer to others for resources and strategies, but I wish you lots of luck. Listen to your gut, which it sounds like is saying something needs to change.
Anon
Also, depends on how big your glasses are. A large glass of wine is 3.3 units, medium 2.3 and total guidance (at least here in the UK) is to drink less than 14 units, so if you’re generous with your pours at all, it’s more like 5-6 glasses a week.
Anonymous
The US doesn’t use the units thing at all, just FYI.
Anon
No, but we do use drink-equivalents, and again a large glass of wine is more than 1 drink equivalent. (https://health.gov/dietaryguidelines/2015/guidelines/appendix-9/)
anon
OP is overly anxious about her very average alcohol consumption, to the point that she is pathologizing herself. Feeding into that baseless anxiety is not helpful.
Anonymous
Exactly.
AnonNYC
Her consumption *isn’t* average though. Even if you discount the 30% of American adults who don’t drink at all, the average consumption for those who *do* drink works out to less than 1 drink-equivalent a day.
Anonymous
This. Not average by any means. There are a lot of functioning alcoholics on this s!te and people have a very skewed sense of what normal alcohol consumption is.
Anon
I had a rude awakening on this after a couple of years in practice from one of my best friends, who is a doctor, and who very kindly reminded me that BigLaw alcohol consumption was not at all the norm and that I shouldn’t be wilfully ignorant of the health risks. See also: sleep and caffeine.
Anonymous
Yeah. Two drinks per night puts you in the top 20% of Americans in terms of alcohol consumption. The people at the 60th percentile level in terms of alcohol consumption have less than 1 drink per WEEK. That doesn’t mean that having that much alcohol is inherently terrible, but it is definitely not average.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/09/25/think-you-drink-a-lot-this-chart-will-tell-you/?utm_term=.914318bf9872
Anonymous
FWIW, it’s not that 30% of Americans don’t drink it all, it’s 30% of Americans have not had a drink in the past week. I fall into that group and I definitely don’t consider myself a teetotaler. The 50th percentile for alcohol consumption in the US is less than half a drink per week. 11 drinks a week is nowhere near average.
same, same Another Question
So I felt exactly this a few weeks ago – same 1-2 drinks an evening, I didn’t think I had a problem, but still I didn’t FEEL right about it.
Set some rules for yourself and take on an experiment – Don’t Drink Sunday – Thursday.
Just see *if* you can do it. How you feel doing it. Do you feel more in control. etc.
I’ve been not drinking Sun-Thurs for the last 2 weeks and it really made me feel better about my anxieties around drinking.
anon
This helps. We’d gotten in the habit of having a couple of drinks in the evening, pretty much every evening. Making a conscious effort to cut that out during the week has been positive. We are sleeping better, we’re more mindful of the empty calories, and when we do have a drink, we enjoy it a bit more.
OfCounsel
I would add the suggestion to find something non-alcoholic to drink and only drink it then. When I realized that my nightly glass of wine was contributing to my weight gain I dropped it Monday – Thursday (and allowed it only twice Friday-Sunday) and substituted a flavored sparking water instead. For me, that glass of SOMETHING to separate the day from the evening was key, not the contents of the glass.
Iris
I posted above about not drinking this month after pretty much the same behavior quantity wise. I weighed the pros and cons and the cons outweigh the pros for me (I am not treated differently because I fit in and I like it) outweigh the cons for me (cost, time, insecurity/anxiety people are judging me for too much drinking, not one single health benefit to drinking more than recommended, attracts the wrong men in my life). I think cutting it out completely is so scary to some people that cutting back could be a good place to start but, I also was slightly annoyed I depend on something so much too.
Really, only you can answer this.
Sober
If your father was an alcoholic, I would recommend going to a few AlAnon meetings. Even if you don’t think you are being impacted by that behavior any longer, the chances are you are.
But I really recommend this because I have several friends for whom AlAnon helped them clarify either that (1) they themselves are actually alcoholics although their disease has not gotten out of control or that (2) they themselves do not have that issue, but are impacted still by their parent’s history of drinking.
It doesn’t work for everyone, but I have seen the program prove very helpful to many in your situation.
MD
Doctor here.
I think this is good advice.
If I was your doctor, with your family history I would be concerned. I would ask you to investigate why you drink, and look for alternatives.
And no….we do not actively recommend that people drink 7 drinks a week.
Anonymous
Which is why all of us lie to you when you ask us about drinking.
Bacon Anon
Hey – speak for yourself. Some of actually only have 1-2 drinks a week on average.
On average means maybe 2-3 drinks one weekend, but none the next.
Anon
No, only people who are worried they drink too much lie about it.
ANon
Exactly. I only have on average 1-2 drinks per month. I’ve never lied about that to my doctor because I don’t believe that’s excessive or should be concerning. My doctor agrees.
Anonymous
+1 to Bacon Anon. I’m annoyed at people who lie about their drinking to doctors to protect themselves, because the docs then assume we all do it. I do not.
Anonymous
I’m annoyed that I have to lie about 9 drinks a week instead of 7 to “protect” myself from a lecture from a doctor who sees me for 15 minutes a year.
Anonymous
Yeah, lying to your doctor about how many drinks you have is a big red flag that you know it’s a problem.
Anonymous
Not at all.
For Real!
Anonymous at 10:00 am – then you need a better doctor.
Macademia
I am not replying here because I am a doctor, but because I like the suggestion to think about why you are drinking. I wonder whether you are anxious about anything else–do you feel like your life is stuck or that you have no joy? Or does a drink ease the transition to being home and not at work? I’ve started to completely change my clothes and put on incredibly fuzzy slipper socks as a way to ease in to being home.
MD
We know you lie about your drinking.
ELS
Not all of us! I usually have 4 drinks a week on average, not more than 2 a night. I tell my doctor exactly that.
Now, when she asks me if I have cut back on caffeine? I *might* fudge a little on the amount of coffee I drink every day.
Anonydoc
Also a doctor here.
I’m not worrying about your alcohol use if you drink 10 glasses a week (and many of us will double what you tell us you drink, since we all minimize this). I just try to remember to ask you again next year, to look for changes in your blood pressure, lab tests, weight over time (I worry more about weight loss/malnutrition), and for signs of increasing stress of mood changes in your life and what your outlets are. And I also ask about other substance use, and family history, because positive responses here are red flags.
A lot of people use alcohol for stress release and pleasure.
Anonymous
Don’t paint all of us with that brush. I don’t lie either! You’re my doctor. If I can’t share with you my deep dark secrets, I have the wrong doctor.
CHJ
What happens if you decide not to drink one evening? Can you choose not to, like it’s ice cream, or do you feel like you need it?
Another question about drinking
I don’t think I need it and I could choose not to. I just really enjoy it and find it to be a pleasant experience. And there’s booze in the house. So I do it every day.
I broke a daily iced coffee addiction by getting irritated by the increased traffic around the coffee shop. It became a hassle so I cut way way back on going. I’m thinking that if I didn’t have alcohol in the house I wouldn’t drink it because going and getting it is too much of a hassle. I hate hassles. So maybe I could cut way back by buying a certain small amount for the week and once it’s gone, that’s that. I think I’m going to try that and see how I feel.
Anonymous
I think this seems like a really useful thing to do. I cut back on my drinking pretty significantly over the last year for calorie reasons by a combo of not opening a bottle of wine on Sunday, making tea an easy choice, a Soda Stream, and a walk after dinner.
Closet Redux
Sounds like you’ve developed a habit, at the very least. I used to do this with an afternoon coffee, not because I needed a jolt, but because I liked the routine of leaving my office to go to the coffee shop every afternoon. Much like your iced coffee routine, it was easy to break once something made it inconvenient (for me, when I started pumping after my baby was born). Your idea to break the habit forming structure by reducing the amount of alcohol in the house is a really good one. Consider replacing it with a new, positive habit (meditating, working out, praying, writing a letter)– good habits are just as easy to form as bad ones.
pugsnbourbon
Yes! I love bourbon (obvs) and I realized my nightly tipple was a habit. I liked sipping on something while I was winding down in the evening. I switched to diet soda most nights – maybe not the best choice, but it’s a little extra hydration. And it makes an Old Fashioned on Friday or Saturday a little more special.
Emmer
I think the ice cream comparison is an apt one. Is 1-2 drinks per night good for you? Probably not; you’d probably be healthier overall if you cut back. Same if you had 2 scoops of ice cream every night. But are you causing irreparable harm to yourself? Probably not, either. We all have vices that we’d be better off without, but I wouldn’t be alarmed by it.
Anonymous
If you can cut back easily, then I think a couple drinks a night is like a couple scoops of ice cream a night – not ideal for your health, but not an addiction and something that a reasonable adult can choose to do, just like we all do some unhealthy things. But if you have problems cutting back, then there’s a dependence there and I think the ice cream analogy kind of collapses.
Anon
So, my husband and I were right there with you until recently. We realized over the holidays that we couldn’t remember the last day on which we hadn’t had a drink. We never get drunk, but we were having at least one drink per night, sometimes up to 3 on weekends. We also realized that we never turned down alcohol when it was offered to us.
I agree with most posters that by and large, drinking every day does not mean that you’re an alcoholic. But I also understand the anxiety that alcohol consumption can produce when alcoholism runs in your family (it’s on both my mom’s and dad’s sides), and how you can wonder what normal looks like.
So what we decided to do was not drink on weeknights. We started on January 1st and have kept it up. We make exceptions if we’re going out to happy hour, dinner, etc during the week, but even in those circumstances, we’re limited to one drink.
I’ll be honest – the first week was hard and a little eye-opening. I hadn’t realized how much I relied on my glass of wine with dinner as a pick-me-up at the end of the day. But that impulse faded pretty quickly, and for the past few weeks it hasn’t been an issue at all. It also has not been hard for me to stick to one drink during weeknight happy hours or dinners. I feel reassured that I’m not addicted to alcohol, and once this month is over we’re going to rely on our instincts and not be so draconian about it (eg, maybe we’ll have a glass of wine with dinner on a weeknight when we actually cooked something nice, but not when we’re eating scrambled eggs or whatever).
TLDR: You are probably not an alcoholic, but try cutting out alcohol for a little while to see how it goes.
Mrs. Jones
If you’re anxious about it, try drinking less. It can’t hurt.
Anon
I was drinking one to two glasses of wine during the week, and adding a cocktail before those on weekend nights. What stopped me wasn’t any force of will or great concern, but heartburn. Searing, awful, is-it-a-heart-attack heartburn.
Now that I don’t drink much anymore I notice some benefits. I sleep better. The wine helped me fall asleep, but it also helped me wake up at 1 or 2 am just about every night. That doesn’t happen any more. I think my skin looks better. But weight did not vanish from my frame. I didn’t get motivated to start an early morning workout regimen. I still don’t get everything done that I think I should get done.
To be honest, I wish I could drink the wine!
AnonNP
The CDC defines a standard drink as 12 oz beer, 8 oz malt liquor, 5 oz wine, or 1.5 oz shot. For women, moderate alcohol consumption is up to 1 drink per day. More than that is considered “heavy drinking”and “excessive alcohol use” – specifically 8 or more drinks per week.
Marie M
I often want a drink when I get home from work. If I say to myself, “I will have dinner and then if I still feel like having a drink, I will,” I invariably forget all about it. I don’t think I’ve ever proceeded to have a drink after having dinner and cleaning up.
Anonymous
Usually when politicians are being ridiculous, I’m good at just focusing on other things and not getting too caught up in reading the news. But now, I can’t stop and I can’t ignore what’s going on, because I feel like Trump is a very real threat to the world’s safety and security. I constantly have this sinking feeling in my stomach….I just feel like the end is nigh and all our nightmares about Trump are coming true. How do you guys cope?
Anonymous
By doing other things. I read the news. I don’t spend all day reading the news. Try subscribing to a physical paper.
anon
I cope badly. I’ve had issues with anxiety off and on, and it’s ratcheted up to unbearable levels since the election and then again since the inauguration. The only thing that has helped somewhat is to really limit my exposure to news and basically picking one time of day to check in — usually by listening to NPR on my way to work. That also means I’ve had to give myself a Facebook ban, because even hearing from people I agree with has become too much. Don’t get me wrong — I will not allow myself to be completely uninformed, but I have to look out for my mental health. Especially if I’m going to be marching, calling my senators and being an activist in my free time.
Since my anxiety tends to kick in the worst around bedtime, I’ve created a really long, relaxing pre-bedtime routine.
Anon
Not coping that well, but the key my friends and I have been discussing is to take action. If we sit here and just feel hopeless, it’s so much worse. While you’re waiting to figure out what you want to do, call your representative (right now; it only takes 45 seconds) and make a donation (if you’re able) to a cause you carry about. Even those little steps put a little dent in the hopeless feeling. I know it well and sympathize.
Anondc
I found this article super helpful.
https://medium.com/the-coffeelicious/how-to-stayoutraged-without-losing-your-mind-fc0c41aa68f3#.shjzu9180
One thing I’ve done is not read/watch any political news after 9pm and right when i wake up. Its hard but also try to remember its literally been one week and we have a couple hundred weeks left – we will get through this.
Anonymous
That’s the thing, I feel like we WON’T get through this. I feel like we’re heading towards another Holocaust.
Anonymous
Then get some better coping skills. If your anxiety leaves you unable to function, see a therapist, take drugs, meditate, go for long walks, do yoga.
Anonymous
I have to wonder, is it really unreasonable to be anxious when a fascist megalomaniac is in charge? It’s not making mountains out of molehills, it’s reality.
Anonymous
That’s no the point. The point is that you must figure out a way to continue to function.
Anonymous
I don’t know. The people who survived the Holocaust were mostly affluent citizens who got scared by the early warning signs (many of which we have now – destruction of information the govt doesn’t approve of, blacklists published describing ‘criminal’ citizens, nationalist propaganda) and got out of the country.
Baconpancakes
Having a plan in place to make use of the Law of Return is helping.
Anonymous
@Baconpancakes. Do you know the rule on how Jewish you have to be to use the Law of Return? My father is Jewish but my mother is not. I was raised Jewish and am now married to a 100% Jewish man. I’ve heard conflicting things – some sources say one parent (or even grandparent) is enough, but I’ve also heard that if your mother’s mother is not Jewish, you don’t qualify, even if your other 3 grandparents are Jewish. Under that metric even our kids would not qualify.
Baconpancakes
Technically under the law you are not Jewish enough to qualify, but an amendment allows for the spouses and children of Jews to emmigrate with their Jewish spouse. So as long as your husband’s mother was Jewish you would be fine. And if you went through an official conversion process you would be considered officially Jewish. (Although I’m told that’s a huge PIA).
Anon
This might not help you, but I remind myself all the time that everyone has to die someday and that we can never know what will come. We could have HRC in office and be struck by an enormous earthquake, or I could be hit by a bus on my way to work, or someone could commit another mass shooting that affects all the people I love. Sometimes it helps me to remind myself that life is completely unpredictable and that the only certainty is that we will all die someday. It takes the sting out of Trump just a little bit.
Anondc
I’m sorry you feel this way, but try to remind yourself that we still have checks and balances in our government. There are some limits on what his administration can do and there are some vocal politicians in Congress that are fighting hard (even if they are the minority).
Also, I have no idea what your background is but both of my parents are from countries that had civil war, dictatorships, disease etc. And they all fought and survived. They didnt survive by reading constant stories online about what could happen, doomsday scenarios, etc. They stuck together, protested, organized, and did what they could.
I would take some sort of break from the news if you can and seek therapy like the Anon at 9:46 suggests because its going to be a long 4 years (even if he is impeached).
Anondc
Also be cognizant of who youre spending your time with. Are you spending time with worriers who arent actually protesting, calling their representatives, volunteering, etc? Look for ways you can act and make a difference – its 100x more effective.
a.k.
I would feel better about this if it looked like the checks and balances were working, but Congress doesn’t seem interested in pushing back too much at this point. The freaking head of the House Ethics Committee is more interested in HRC’s emails than whether or not our sitting president has major conflicts of interest or is taking emoluments.
All politics is local. Call your reps, get involved at the statehouse level. Run for office or support someone who is thinking about running. TALK TO YOUR NEIGHBORS. Don’t assume that the internet reaches everyone who will vote in the next election.
Anonymous
How about this for a reframe:
The Holocaust was awful but people survived. It was not the end of humanity and Trump is not the end of humanity. The stories of those who survived have been invaluable.
Gertrude from Austria is a Holocaust survivor who spoke out in the recent Austrian election. She confirmed fears that rhetoric now is frighteningly similar to the early 1930s but it was a message of action – be the change you wish to see. And her voice mattered – the ‘Trump’ like figure in the Austrian Presidential election lost. Their new President was inaugurated yesterday.
Watch Gertrude here: http://www.cnn.com/2016/11/30/europe/austria-election-holocaust-survivor-plea/
Trump is actually provoking others to step up and act in response – Canada and the Netherlands are starting an international pro-choice fund to try and offset the Global Gag executive order.
There are lots of reasons to be hopeful. We just have to keep fighting.
Anonymous
But a lot of people did not survive. . .
Anonymous
But there’s always a dark side if you look for it. More people died from the Spanish flu than World War I.
The Holocaust was terrible and horrible. But many many things have been terrible and horrible. So we say ‘never again’ and keep trying because the alternative is giving up. And to quote Kate McKinnon “I’m not giving up and neither should you.”
Based on your responses to replies, I’m going to suggest that therapy (CBT) may be useful if you want to protect your mental health in the coming years.
nutella
6 million did not survive, though
SC
6 million European Jews died in the Holocaust. Around the world, there were 15 million battle deaths and at least 45 million civilian deaths. Either way, I don’t think “Some people survived and the world kept spinning” is adequate to calm people’s fears that history may repeat itself.
http://www.nationalww2museum.org/learn/education/for-students/ww2-history/ww2-by-the-numbers/world-wide-deaths.html?referrer=https://www.google.com/
Anonymous
That’s not my point.
I’m well aware of the statistics as I’ve done graduate level work in genocide studies. 800 000 people also died in 100 days in the Rwandan genocide in 1994.
The point is we have to fight back.
If we throw up our hands and say ‘all is lost’ then it will be. Talking to each other, encouraging organizing of efforts to fight back matter. And continue to fight back no matter what. Denmark saved almost all of the Jewish Danes despite being occupied. Raoul Wallenberg saved thousands. The Kindertransport before the war saved 10 000.
The rhetoric currently being used is reminiscent of early 1930s Germany. That’s why I linked the powerful video from Gertrude. Things do not have to continue down that road. The ‘final solution’ was only finalized later in the war. These things are not unstoppable but they only stop if we don’t give up.
Katie
I limit social media time, and I don’t listen to the news first thing in the morning. I regularly check news sites, but limit my time (it’s easy for me to just keep reading and reading on my laptop). Yes to calling my senators regularly. The women’s march was so powerful for me because I could see this huge mass of people who were committed to action. I ordered a march t-shirt to remind me of that feeling. We’re out there, still working away. I really believe we’ll get through this, and I’m naturally a pessimist.
Katie
Also, I’d put good odds on impeachment or resignation within two years. Republicans in Congress don’t like him and would prefer Pence–not reassuring for reproductive and LGBT rights, but slightly better for foreign policy.
Anonymous
I would have said the same thing about impeachment a couple months ago too, but I’ve been surprised how much the GOP is bowing down to him even on stuff that is very much not a traditional Republican position, like border tariffs. I think they know without the Trump base there isn’t really a Republican party anymore.
I do think he might resign or die from the stress. He’s relatively old, obese, and his blood pressure apparently hits the roof every time people march….so let’s keep marching!
Anonymous
I agree with Anon at 11am. I think the stress of being President will become too much – he’s not used to working these kind of hours. So either Pence will start doing everything or Trump will resign ‘for health reasons’ and tour around the country giving speeches about how he was the best President and he would still be doing amazing if the doctors didn’t ‘make him’ quit.
I can see him getting really upset and having health issues from the stress – he’s 70 and obese and it clearly upsets him to be unpopular.
Lynn
Pick something to fight, and tune out the rest to the best of your ability. Shut down social media, or spend no more than 15 minutes per day. For me, I set up monthly donations to Sierra Club, ACLU, and PP. I expect this money to act on my behalf so I don’t have to constantly fret. Additionally, I set up 30 minutes every Friday after work to call Congressmen and leave messages (because they are not there!). For volunteer time, I stick to things that benefit public lands, because we all have limited time, so that is the fight I choose.
Anonymous
Because there is life outside of politics? Go outside, exercise, go shopping, garden (literally or metaphorically), be with friends and family, literally DO ANYTHING that makes you happy with your free time other than stew about political events.
Anonymous
enjoy life in your bubble where your friends and family aren’t directly impact by this. Where your BFF isn’t telling you about how her born in the USA half Hispanic kids were told to “get back behind the wall” on their school bus. Or where your sister isn’t sure if she needs to move up her wedding from June in case anything changes with LGBT+ rights. Or where your college roommate’s husband isn’t worried that his Sudanese sister will get caught in the refugee ban.
Must be nice inside your bubble. These are not just ‘political events’. These are peoples lives.
Pro Bono but not a laywer
I would love to volunteer my professional skills to fight Trump. Geographic information systems–I make maps. It’s a niche that seems applicable, but I can’t find an organized opportunities to make difference. The culture of unpaid “internships” at environmental nonprofits complicates this as well, because I don’t want to devalue my own industry long term, I just feel that this is an emergency.
anon
What about a local chapter of Pantsuit Nation? I bet they’d love to have your expertise.
Pro Bono but not a laywer
Good idea! Thanks.
Anon
Start a blog? You could map county-level attacks on women’s reproductive rights, map the locations of the worst anti-women politicians’ districts, or so much else. Good for you for taking your skills in the right direction.
OP
Oh wow, that would be intense. A good idea, but intense!
I’m not sure I have the research skills to do it well, but maybe I could find some one to team up with.
givemyregards
I work in public health so if you need a partner for the research side, I’m happy to volunteer!
X
Not sure if you need the help, but I’m in Reporting and Analytics. I work with Tableau, which has a mapping software component
Pro Bono but not a laywer
Wow, you guys are amazing–I’d love to do this. I don’t have any internet-safe contact info and I can’t set any up while I’m inside the firewall at work. But can I get back to you?
Anon
There are some examples of pro bono GIS projects, like this one: http://www.summerofmaps.com/ I suggest reaching out to organizations in your community with an explanation of your expertise and how it may be useful to them and see if they are interested. I think there are a lot of groups that could benefit from your services if they understood them!
Lynn
This is awesome. Thanks so much for being willing to put your skills to good work.
OP
My longer comment may be in moderation, but part of why I’m reaching out here instead of locally, is that I live in a very isolated, very red, area. My employers are the only ones for a 100 mile radius who publicly espouse climate change policy.
More suggestions for online groups that may have local chaptees would be great!
Anon
Also check out Together We Will and Indivisible. Both have similar type goals as Pantsuit Nation originally did.
OP
Thanks. I’ve been readone their manifestos, but haven’t thought to contact them.
Closet Redux
The Shriver Center on Law and Poverty would be a great place to reach out. They serve legal aid lawyers across the country and offer training for public interest lawyers on a variety of tools including how to use data and mapping to support legal theories. I did one on mapping racial impact to support civil rights claims. You could have a lot of impact if you worked with an org that serves a lot of people over a large geographic area. Thank you for offering your skills!
Closet Redux
http://povertylaw.org/
Pro Bono but not a laywer
Thanks for the recommendation. Your comment is sort of makes it sound like you did the mapping. A fellow gis analyst?
anon
I’m a fellow GIS analyst! I don’t do it anymore but used to, and miss it (sometimes). Just saying hi!
ponte python's flying circus
What about looking for local chapters of ‘civic hacker’-type groups? Hacks/Hackers is one, for instance.
Pro Bono but not a laywer
Maybe? I hadn’t thought about reaching out to the IT side. Perhaps I’ll call some freinds who teach computer science at the local CC
nutella
Given how much so many issues seem to stem from gerrymandering, I would really love to see progression maps of how the lines have been re-drawn over time. I am willing to bet several of them overlap with an increase in minority households, too.
Check this article out: http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2010/09/gerrymandering-math
Amanda
Brilliant, if this could be overlaid with what positions are in charge of actually drawing these, that would be great. Also, if there is any way to somehow “quantify” this data and prove out the issue, that could potentially help some of the court cases that are reviewing these issues now.
AnonyMom
Hi, if you are still reading, I just launched an organization around getting STEM trained professionals more involved in local governance. It’s not directly aimed at Trump, but I think shoring up local government and civic involvement is an important part of the long game. I will post a link to our url below. We are truly just kicking off (launched on Tuesday), but we will have a national footprint from the get go.
AnonyMom
Link is:
esal us
Engineers & Scientists Acting Locally
AnonyMom
This should be esal.us
Pro Bono but not a laywer
Thank you–still reading, will check it out tonight!
AnonyMom
Great. Not much there right now, but we’re looking for volunteers for a number of things to help get the organization more formally off the ground. Had our first event on Tuesday, and about twice as many people as I would have expected showed up.
You’re mapping skills would be very useful to the website in terms of helping people set up and find local chapters. I am also looking to do a more pointed initiative related to data for local governance, and GIS data is the top of the list.
Finally, not sure where you are, but there’s always the possibility of your helping organize a local chapter.
TK
Propublica is hiring a bunch of people right now – perhaps they’d benefit from your expertise on an occasional basis with visuals to highlight what their investigative reports are uncovering?
Pro Bono but not a laywer
Sorry, forgot to add my question:
Any other GIS analysts out the doing this?
Any environmental lawyers who could recommend ways I could get involved?
Thanks
Scarlett
Find the Facebook group Lawyers on the Left and ask there – there are local chapters you could contact that might have ideas.
OP
Thanks.
Jules
The new name of that group is Lawyers for Good Government/ J4GG. Which I kind of hate, but whatever. It’s a closed group, though; you may not be able to join, but try, or see if any lawyer friends can add you.
And it’s great that you want to be involved!
Jules
Sorry, it’s L4GG.
OP
Very good to know. I may pitch it too my lawyer freinds too.
AnonyMom
Hi, see my comment above.
GIS!
I used to do GIS for a nationally-known non-profit environmental law firm. It was awesome. It’s an amazing tool that can be used to support your cases or advocacy work in so many ways. I don’t know how many law firms/advocacy groups use GIS analysts. It might be worth trying to do on a freelance basis for different groups- you’ll have to educate people about what GIS is, how it can be useful. I’d make a portfolio and think up some ideas, i.e., mapping coal fired power plants in relation to low-income/minority communities (obvious but you get the point). It might be an uphill battle to get someone to hire you immediately if they don’t already use GIS, what with the challenges of having to support the software and concern they couldn’t support you full time. But maybe after they fell in love with your work…..:D
Anon
I have some dear cousins who are struggling after losing their mom to cancer last June. Their father is depressed and lonely as well. They seemed (self-admittedly) to be doing better in the first few months of her death and have said that it just seems to get harder and harder now. Does anyone have any tips for books, movies, shows, ANYTHING that might help? One is in therapy and the others are resisting it, but if there are specific types of support groups that have been successful for others, I’d be open to suggesting that. Thanks in advance.
Nabby
A family friends son committed suicide last year and they vastly preferred support groups over individual therapy. It made them feel more “normal” and like this situation wasn’t insurmountable
Anonymous
I agree that support groups can be very helpful. Do a quick search online for bereavement/grief support groups in their area, looking for ones for spouses (for their Dad) and ones for children (for them). Call the oncology department social worker at the hospital where she got her care and ask them to recommend support groups. Often such support groups are held at cancer centers, hospitals, or by hospice/palliative care programs.
And then keep checking up on them. Tell them you are thinking about them, and just listen. If you have a memory/story of their mom, tell it to them. When people purposefully avoid talking about someone who has passed that can be even more painful.
context
I’d give them time. It took me a long time to grieve for my mother. I think we sometimes think it should be over quickly, but it’s really a process. Even 5 years after her death I’ll sometimes see a movie and feel sad thinking ‘Mom would love that’. In the short term, what helped me was an out-of-town visit to a friend who had lost her mother a decade previously and cuddling another friends cats (not kidding about this one).
been there
My father died over 20 years ago and sometimes I still just get really emotional and sad about it at times.
When it happened, I sort of shut everyone out so my mom made me go to an “art therapy” class once because I loved art… but did not like talking to strangers about emotional things. My mom said I didn’t have to go back but had to open up to the family because we were all going through it together. Some people really benefit from individual support, others from going together as a family. Age, family dynamics are also at play, too. (I was a tomboy and did things with my dad; my sister did things with my mom. I felt like I lost my buddy, the very person I would have gone to to talk about it.)
One thing I will say is that another group therapy I went to designed for kids was for children of divorced or deceased parents and I still maintain that it was a terrible idea. Kids are dealing with two very different sets of circumstances if one parent has died or the parents are divorcing. Both are traumatic and difficult for kids but should be dealt with differently.
I really did not like people giving me things specifically designed for coping, like books and movies. Like, I would throw those things away because I didn’t like that they were a reminder of grief and tragedy. For me the best was living life again and having good friends and family there. Sometimes you just need someone to listen to you be sad for 30 minutes while you are going about your daily life.
I am getting married this year and have found the emotions to bubble up from time to time again because “father” comes up a lot (who is walking you down the aisle, how should the invitation be phrased, are your parents paying for the wedding?) in addition to it just being hard at any milestone. One of the millions of reasons I love my fiance is that we can go about our day as normal and hear a song my daddy used to sing to me and I will share the story with my fiance and he just listens and lets me feel the emotion. That is the best comfort, I think. Just listen and let them feel what they need to feel.
Finally, 20+ years later, milestones are hard (graduation, wedding, birth of a grandchild, etc.) as are in a weird, irrational way, the milestone anniversaries. I get a little weird in the weeks leading up to the anniversary of his death but at the 10 year, 15 year, 20 year, I am a little weird for the months leading up to it, you just sort of wait for it to come around and be over with. (I read an article about families of 9/11 victims saying this same thing and it totally clicked.)
LC
I’m so sorry you lost your father so young. Your advice is very helpful.
My father lost his father when he was only 6 years old. It colored his entire life, and he still aches from it although he never spoke of it for years. Now he talks to me so so lovingly about his father. I love hearing about the grandfather I never knew…. and am learning “all the stories”…..
Cb
I don’t know where they live but check out if there is a “The Dinner Party” near them. It is an organisation set up to change how we think and talk about loss (being more open) and brings younger people together to have those conversations. They may have some good resources on their website as well.
Anonymous
When my dad died, I experienced the grief getting much worse (about 6-9 months after) before it got easier. A therapist told me that is completely normal….to be honest, just hearing that made me feel better because I knew I wasn’t back-sliding in an unhealthy way. Also, as people have said, in some ways the grief doesn’t go away and you just have to accept the pain. Losing a parent is a life-altering, surreal experience and something that (at least for me) I didn’t understand until it happened. It’s just awful.
I guess my point is, there may be nothing they can do beyond finding a place to talk about her, be it a support group, a therapist, or just with friends. I liked it when people asked me questions about my dad (as in, what was your favorite memory of him? where did he grow up?) because it gave me an excuse to talk about him. I know that seems like the wrong thing to do, making someone talk about the person they just lost, but it was the best thing for me.
Anon
Thanks so much, everyone. I was very close to my aunt as well and we’ve all been able to talk about her and remember her often, which I do think helps (one of my cousins said that’s the one thing she really wants from everyone). I’ll keep that up and also consider sending some support group information for local chapters.
been there
Yes, if you have photos of your aunt your cousin doesn’t have or you have fond memories of her, maybe write them down and someday in the future, you can give them to her to cherish again. I love when people tell me stories about my dad; it gives me a new way to get to know him that I don’t get because he isn’t here. On my 16th birthday, my dad’s best friend gave me a polaroid he had of my dad. He is in his ’70s cringeworthy finest, with a brown plaid blazer, wiiiiiiide lapels, a brown paisley wide tie, and winged hair, and it is my #1 most treasured item.
Bee
Struggling at the moment. I feel like I’m constantly making little mistakes at work. I think it’s because I’m not sleeping well, which is partially because I’m worrying about work and partially because I’ve got a bad roommate situation going on (moving out in a week and a half though). Constantly being told I’m doing things wrong is so wearing.
Anonymous
Hugs, I’ve been there. For the first few months at my current job I felt like I came into work to be criticized for eight hours a day. It is SO wearing. Trust in yourself that it WILL get better. It’s good you’re taking steps to make things better. Good luck with the move. If you’re having serious trouble sleeping, see a doctor.
Bee
I’m not having trouble getting to sleep – I end each day exhausted and sleep as soon as my head hits the pillow – I’m just not getting very good quality sleep. I can’t logistically sleep much more than I currently do (I get a full 8 hours most nights and usually wake up before my alarm, but I’m still tired)
Anonymous
Get in some exercise? It will improve sleep quality, and make you feel more energetic during the day, and is a good stress release.
Get out at lunch and take a brisk walk for a few minutes while listening to a fun podcast on headphones. Sunlight, the activity are helpful.
Be careful you aren’t drinking too much alcohol before bed, as that can interfere with sleep quality.
Get a happy light for the mornings.
Good luck with the move. I hope that is the solution. Call some friends to help you so it isn’t as overwhelming.
Torin
+1 to all of this.
It might seem counter-intuitive, but I think if you’re struggling at work sometimes the solution is to take more breaks from work. Take a walk at lunch yes, but maybe also take a short walk around the building at 10:00 and 3:30 as well. I sometimes find that taking a break from thinking about something that stresses me out helps me refocus when I get back. Also when that’s the case the break can’t be fooling around on the internet for 10 minutes–I have to actually leave my office and stretch my legs and get some fresh air.
Anonymous
One foot in front of the other. My first 6 months at my job were like an extended panic attack. Wasn’t sleeping, felt like I was always messing up, couldn’t do anything right. Focus on one foot in front of the other and making small good decisions each day (like going to the gym, eating well, being detail-oriented with a project, etc) and it’ll gradually get better. I’ve also had luck with very small doses of anti-anxiety medication.
Madrid is Calling
What do you think about this bag? I’m traveling to Madrid for work and would like a nylon bag for sightseeing. I don’t want to spend a lot (<$50) because I don't anticipate using it much in regular life, but I don't want it to scream tourist, and I would like it to be the only bag I bring. Other suggestions?
http://www.ebags.com/product/travelon/anti-theft-signature-ew-shoulder-bag/276982?lastSearchTerm=travelon+anti-theft+signature+e%2Fw+shoulder+bag&pl=hdr_srch_as_l1
ponte python's flying circus
I think it’s reasonably cute and seems pretty lightweight. You could also check out the Vera Bradley Preppy Poly line – I’ve had good luck with finding lightweight satchels and totes on sale.
Torin
A friend took a Travelon back with her on our trip to Turkey awhile back and she raved about it.
Why not just use a regular purse though? That’s what I always do. I have a simple black leather bag I can carry either over one shoulder or cross body. I take it everywhere, including on international trips. I’m not sure I understand why you need a single purpose item for traveling.
Terry
Not the OP but I don’t carry a leather bag when traveling because of the weight. Carrying a bag on one shoulder for several hours a day screws up my back!
Madrid Calling
This is the reason. Even my lighter leather bags begin to feel very heavy after a while.
Grad School Loans
For those of you who went to a prestigious, ivy, etc grad school (including law, medicine, etc) and had to take out loans: do you think it was worth it for your field? Do you think the name of your school got you where you are now?
Anonymous
Medicine. Yes, it helped, and I would make the choice again. But I had scholarship assistance and would have never paid full price. Even for Harvard. Just too much…
But big name school helped open doors for big name residency, research, fellowship etc… There is a long training oath with many steps in my field.
Anonymous
Oath = path
Anonymous
Law. 130k. Top 10 school. Worth every penny. Wouldn’t have gotten any of my jobs without it. 2010 grad.
Anonymous
Do you have a prestigious undergrad and what do you want to do? I took a big scholarship and went to a lesser law school than I could have gone to if I’d paid tuition (still top ~30, so not terrible but definitely not Ivy), but I had a Harvard undergrad and I knew I didn’t want to clerk for the Supreme Court or be a law professor. I didn’t have any problems getting interesting summer internships or multiple jobs in Big Law, but several people have mentioned to me that the Harvard name got them interested, even if it wasn’t the law school. So I think it’s more worth it if you don’t have a “name” undergrad. And if you have a specific goal like a Supreme Court clerkship an Ivy is pretty much the only way to get there.
Anonymous
How did you know you didn’t want to be a law professor? I still think that it sounds like a lovely job (and it could just be that living in college towns has always been a blast for me and I just love that sort of vibe). As a person with no experience other than being in a school setting, I don’t know how one knows this. I still think that it would be a good quasi-retirement job. I probably do 4 CLEs a year and have always enjoyed that.
* I say this as someone who currently practices in a fairly technical area of law (but one with some relevance to law schools — say I do private equity work but could still teach a corporations class). I realize that there is a part of law professing that is all about former supreme court clerks and doing more exotic courses (like whatever Amal Clooney teaches at Columbia), but there is a lot of basic non-litigation courses that someone has to teach.
10:09
Oh, don’t get me wrong, I think it sounds like an absolutely amazing gig. My parents are professors (not law) and they absolutely love the lifestyle. I meant, “I knew I didn’t want to do the work I would have to do to be a law professor.” I’m too lazy to do all the hustling it takes to get into academia (or the Supreme Court).
Anonymous
Yeah so you’re talking about something completely different than a full time tenure track position.
Anonymous
IDK — I think there is probably ample competition from supreme court clerks and circuit-level clerks for being conlaw or appellate law or other glamorous full-time tenure track professorships.
I think it’s different for transactional specialties like tax, corporate, banking, broker-dealer, etc., esp. for anyone who has ever been successful (i.e., at least an income partner) in that field. [Why? Because a law school, especially one that isn’t T15-25, probably wants its graduates to be competent employed attorneys and would want a professor who could serve as a gateway to that in those classes, not one who had maybe been a 4th year somewhere, but never first-chaired anything of import. And my understanding is that lower-ranked schools are always losing junior faculty who can go higher, so would welcome a person who would actually stay.]
Anon
New poster — you just know if you DON’T want to be a prof. Law prof (or any kind of prof) is VERY VERY low on my list of jobs — as in if someone just handed it to me, I’d probably try to find something else to do. I never had any romantic notions about school — from high school thru law school — school was just what you had to get thru to do real work and make money. In all those yrs of school, there are really no teachers/profs that I truly admired — I thought it must be a dreadful job to be stuck there teaching the same thing yr after yr while your students go off and do interesting things. So yeah — there are people who know that teaching isn’t for them. Though I do like college towns . . . .
Anonymous
I have often had phenomenal teachers starting in middle school and into my law program. It’s like seeing a movie and seeing a movie that moves and inspires you. And I’ve always loved community theater, so I see it like packaging material in a way that is engaging and accessable to the audience and really helps them learn. It’s been easy to do CLEs and do the materials for them (it’s a great creative process). A whole semester though, that might be rough and I don’t imagine that I’d feel prepared enough to do that starting cold. Maybe guest lecturing from my home in Sedona at weekly forays to Arizona State would be lovely to do in my 60s :)
OP
I want to go into health research . I went to my state uni which my parents paid in full so I didnt have any loans. It was a a great school and lead me to some great job/research experience. I was in a lot of honors programs at my uni so it was almost like a private school within a state school if that makes sense. But as I’m looking into grad schools I’m wondering how much name can get you. My dad actually went to Harvard for his masters and thinks it opened a lot of doors but he got a full ride.
I’m still waiting to hear back from schools and also about financial aid/scholarships in general so in a way I’m borrowing tomorrow’s troubles but its something I’m thinking about for sure…
Anon
Where would you work with a health research related degree? Figure out a short list of 10-15 employers and then look into where those employers recruit from. If you are looking to go to McKinsey/Bain/BCG and do healthcare consulting for them — yeah you need a TOP degree. For other employers — I have no idea but this is info that’s out there. And you need to look at true employability stats for every school you consider (i.e. if a school says 98% employed at graduation, are they employed in the field they studied or does the school call them employed if they get a survival job at Sbux)? These are things that career services offices have stats on.
OP
Well a lot depends if continue onto the PhD route or stick with masters (I’ll have a better idea once I start school but I’m definitely leaning towards PhD) but my end goal is to publish my own research, run my own lab, have a leadership position at a research institute, etc. If I just stick with masters I would likely do consulting and/or the coding and analysis side of research at somewhere like NIH or research firm. So theres a lot of possibilities/im pretty open.
Looking into the career stats of the schools is a super helpful tip, thanks! One strategy I had was stalking LinkedIn profiles of alumni and seeing where/what positions they end up in but talking to the career services will give me a more accurate picture for sure!
Thank you! :-)
Anon
Responded at 10:30 – Stalking LinkedIn profiles is also VERY useful. Yes you want to rely on official career services stats, but just in case schools are getting “creative” re what grads are doing — LinkedIn will help you know for sure whether people are landing the jobs you’d want.
Anonymous
I did a night LLM in tax while working FT as a law clerk. B/c I was already paying to live in a HCOL city and working, I didn’t have to borrow living expenses. I did have to borrow for tuition for a couple of semesters (and b/c I was working I could deduct the LLM tuition).
I honestly learned very little due to prior course work, CLEs, and working FT. But the credential was very helpful when it was time for a different-city lateral move.
It’s a bit of a joke and I’m glad I didn’t have to pay out of pocket for 100% of the cost (and could spread it out over a few years). It’s like a fancy diploma mill. But it was the right mill for the market.
CHJ
I graduated from H/Y/S law school in 2008, and within 6 months the market had crashed and many firms (including mine!) imploded. I was able to land on my feet because of my school in a way that my friends from other good schools (top 20) did not. Obviously that was an unusual situation that hopefully won’t happen anytime soon, but it really made a difference at the time.
Wow
I graduated from a Top 40 law school in 2008 and had my pick of Big Law offers. I was in the top 15% of my class, Ivy undergrad.
Anon
Ivy undergrad and law. Would do it again in a second – no questions asked. I’ve only had 2 jobs post law school — the biglaw firm only hires from about 10 schools (all ivys/top 10) so without the school I went to, no shot of getting in. Then a gov’t appointment – arguably you don’t NEED an ivy resume for that but reality is thousands of people apply for every one spot at my agency and the people who get chosen – ivy/top 10; and bc I am doing financial types of work, I think what made me stand out from the pool was my ivy undergrad in finance — they knew they were getting someone who was always interested in that work and didn’t just fall into it bc that’s all the work her biglaw firm had.
I’m not anti loan at all. Loans for ivys/top 10 schools do open doors as much as some people don’t accept that; there are simply law firms, ibanks, consulting firms that don’t hire from anyplace else bc they don’t have to – they can fill their entire classes from a couple schools. What I am weary of though is the — I HAVE to go to a private school so I’ll take out 100k in loans for a school that is not one of the ones that has a huge recruiting cache; that is a bad financial move in that case, I strongly advocate going to a big state flagship.
Anonymous
Right.
Borrow for Harvard and just accept that you’ll be working at GS until you pay it back (but you’ll probably get the job and paying it back won’t be a problem and you’ll always have Harvard and GS on your resome).
Better than borrowing from Small But Wonderful Private College that GS doesn’t recruit at.
Maybe that’s it — check on-campus recruiting before you borrow (b/c student loans aren’t dischargeable, they’ll be with you long after your dreams of a sovent adulthood are crushed).
Anonymous
I think here there is prestigious and then there is tippy-top of the pyramid. I think that top of pyramid is probably a yes. The rest seem so regional or small that I’d be hesitant (like everyone has heard of Harvard, but Rice is just another white starch (and I love Rice!)). Maybe if it has a vast and/or very loyal alumni network?
Anon
So Rice — I don’t know much about it as a northeasterner BUT my impression (which could be wrong) is that it’s a good school in the south in the same way as Vanderbilt. So would I borrow for Rice/Vandy if I wanted to live in NYC/DC and do biglaw – probably not. Would I borrow from Rice if I wanted to settle in Oklahoma or Tx and do finance or marketing for a petroleum company — YES — bc I realize that my Wharton degrees gives me minimal/no contacts in that region in that industry, while a Rice degree will open some doors to the biggest employers down there in that field.
Anonymous
Totally agree — if you can fix your likely geography in your youth, that’s great.
I hedged by graduating from undergrad (at a Rice-y Tufts-y sort of place) debt free and borrowing 100% for a more known advanced degree.
But I’d never borrow for undergrad b/c I don’t think that’s likey to be a terminal degree these days.
JuniorMinion
Just one data point (recognizing that the plural of anecdote is not data…) . I have an Ivy undergrad that is looking ever more likely to be a terminal degree. I started out in finance in New York and ended up in energy finance in Texas and my Ivy undergrad helped with both. While there are other schools on the regional list here (Texas at Austin and A&M primarily), you still get a leg up if you went to one of the Ivies / National top 10 engineering schools.
Cat
Yes and yes. I had about $175K in loans from an Ivy law school. The path to Biglaw (and paying off those loans in about 3.5 years as a result) was incredibly easy and then having both the brand-name School and brand-name Firm on my resume made the process of going in-house very smooth.
If I could do it over, I’d bring the scholarship ($15K/year) I was offered by a well-regarded-but-not-Ivy law school to my law school’s attention and ask what they could do for me.
Anon
NESCAC undergrad with no loans followed by Top 10 law school with $190k in loans. I turned down a 75% scholarship at at top 25 program to go to the top 10 law school. I graduated in 2010 from law school and while I absolutely think I would have found a government job or similar from the top 25 school and because I would have had very little debt, I absolutely would not have my current BigLaw job at a Vault 10 firm in DC. I love my firm but we hardly hire outside the Top 10 law schools — and by hardly I mean there might be 1 person in a 25 person summer class every 2-3 years.
Anonymous
I recall a firm in DC that used to ask for LSAT scores and still cared if you were law review when they interviewed you as a lateral. It was (IIRC) a California firm, maybe where Scalia’s son was? At any rate, I think it’s a good way to recruit b/c it’s efficient. I’m not sure they did better on DC’s perpetual problem of people just sticking around for 2 years (and often all are gone by 4 years) and eventually needing really good lawyers who want to be lawyers. DC’s churn rate is awful (and for a city, DC seems to be more liveable than most).
Anon
Yep – same with my biglaw firm and we’re not a vault 10 firm or anything (more like a vault 25); they simply don’t “need to” hire from anyplace but the top 10 bc they can fill a whole class of 50 with top 10 schools. And the 1 person that gets in every 2-3 yrs from a school ranked 30 or 50 typically has a HUGE connection and the firm thinks it’s in its best interest to hire; last person I recall — grandfather is a federal judge in the next state over and our firm appears before him A LOT. In her case going to a school ranked #40 has been NO hindrance at all. It’s just that most people don’t have those kinds of last names/connections . . . .
Betty
I spent my first year of law school with a full ride at a lower ranked school. I transferred to a Top 25 complete with full sticker price for my last two years. I would do it again without question. I did well all three years (graduated top 5% of my class), landed a clerkship and a gig at a Vault 5 firm and am now in house. There is no way that I would have landed any of my post law school jobs had I stayed at my first law school. It was a great regional school but did not carry the name recognition. On the other hand, the name was not sufficient; I also did very well at school. I would not go for a Tier 1 — but not top 10 — for the name alone.
Anonymous
Transferred from a Tier 2 state school (with in-state tuition) to a Top 15 school (full sticker price). While I wound up in the same geographic region as the Tier 2 school, I absolutely think that the name of my Top 15 school opens doors for me that the state school would not.
Marshmallow
Yes. Transferred from a 30s-ranked public law school to an Ivy, ~$200k loans. I went to a teeny weeny, fairly unknown liberal arts college for undergrad on a nearly free ride, so at least I didn’t have any existing debt but I had no name recognition either. I don’t think I would have gotten a Biglaw job or clerkship without the Ivy law school (or at least, some other T14 school which all cost the same anyway).
Hollis
I went to a top 3 law school and feel that it opened up doors for me when I wanted to switch firms and practice areas. I was also able to find a job in multiple locations when I had to relocate. I think if you know what city you want to be in for the long-term and you go to the best school in that region, you will do just fine with the strong alumni network, etc. But if you end up in a different region altogether, name recognition will get you further.
Miss
Yes. My law school helped me get a federal clerkship, which got me to my current job that I love. That said, I’m glad I went to a public university for undergraduate because I got a full scholarship and have no debt from that.
Midtown
Law – Yes. Probably wouldn’t have the opportunities/friends/network I have now. T10. If I had wanted to be practice in hometown, I would have gone to law school there, but didn’t really think that one through at the time. 5 years out and the loans are paid off. But I like being a lawyer, and where I am now. I will say though, when I first graduated, the loans seemed daunting. Same as anon above, had great scholarships at T25 I turned down and now that we’re past the uncertainty that was the hiring of the class of 2011, I’m okay with the decision.
Ivy undergrad so I got need based financial aid and took out $10k staffords, so deferred while in law school and cheap interest rates.
Anon
Yes, law, Harvard, absolutely got me where I am. 100 percent loans but they have a great public interest repayment program, or at least did at the time, which is the only thing that made it possible for me. Without that program I’d have gone to somewhere that offered a scholarship .
No regrets
I went to HYS for law school and have been explicitly told by interviewers that my school caught their attention. The loans are certainly a stressful part of my existence, though.
LaCanadienne Passion -- styling Q
I have these boots. If you have these boots, how do you wear them? To work with pencil skirts? To work with dresses (I have some printed shifts that end just above the knee and I think would work with black tights)? My jeans don’t look right tucked into them. I don’t see them with sheath dresses b/c the heels don’t seem high enough (and/or they seem a bit more woodsy than a sheath dress but OK with a shift dress for more creative biz casual (read: I am senior here and DGAF)).
Anonymous
With tights and above the knee skirts/dresses to work. With leggings or very skinny jeans that can tuck.
I like a slightly shorter skirt with a flat boot. Tights keeps it work appropriate.
Following up after an interview
I had an interview on Monday for a job I am extremely interested in. I met with the hiring manager, and she asked that I follow up with my HR recruiter (in-house at the org) for next steps. I emailed the recruiter that same day, and then left a VM Wednesday. From my experience with this recruiter over the past couple of weeks, she seems like the type that needs to be sort of hounded to get things done (when setting up this interview, I sent her several unanswered emails over several weeks, and only got a response when I got her on the phone). DH thinks I should call her again today, I’m worried that’s too aggressive and I’d be annoying her.
Also, the hiring manager was using phrases like “you will go through orientation for 8 weeks, when orientation is done this is what you’ll do next, etc”. I shouldn’t be hopeful about this phrasing, right?
Anonymous
I don’t think you should call her again until next week at the earliest. And no, the phrasing “you will go through orientation…” means nothing. She’s just describing what will happen if you get the job.
Anonymous
Do NOT call the rep again until mid-week next week at the earliest.
anon
I need to go out of the country on family business for 10 days in July. The normal family members who watch my dog when I’m out of town are going with me. He’s a slightly anxious velcro dog, so I’d prefer him being able to stay with someone rather than begin super lonely with just regular walks for 10 days. I’ve never boarded him, and I’m concerned about whether that would work since he’s so uncomfortable in new situations. What do you guys do with your pets when you go out of town?
Blonde Lawyer
I called local vet offices and found an in-home pet sitter for the times my dog can’t stay with family.
Torin
Dog walker comes 3x a day for 30 minutes. We have 2 dogs, so this is actually more economical than boarding, but even when I was single and only had one dog this was what I did. My dog is very high energy and boarders don’t walk them enough or spend any time with them unless you pay for a pretty expensive place.
Cb
I’m in academia so I get a PhD student to come and stay. Often they are international and welcome a change from student digs. And my Velcro cat is much happier with someone staying versus someone coming in and out.
Anonymous
Maybe find a facility that has day care as well, and start taking him to board during the day a few times. He’ll meet regulars that will be there during the ten days. We have a Velcro dog too. Our neighbors’ dogs go to day care at a boarding facility, so we had her meet these dogs in advance, so that when she was boarded for a few days, she’d see her new friends. Talk to neighbors, because they’ll know how the staff is too. Our boarding place’s staff keeps an eye on personalities and makes sure dogs are comfortable with the other boarders.
Meg March
A couple of times in high school/college I dog sat for neighbors and stayed at their house. Obviously you need a kid that isn’t going to throw a party, but if you know anyone you could trust, this was a great experience for me (and I think for the dog and her owners, as well). I went home for dinner every night, but did my homework, tv watching, etc, at their house. If anything went wrong, my parents could have been there in less than 2 minutes, so that was nice from a safety perspective.
Bonnie
We use rover dot com to find in-home care.
Fun for Friday
I work in an old Victorian building that was converted to a law firm. We have a resident friendly ghost. She left me a message on my calculator last night that we are trying to decode. Ideas? I’ve already tried looking at it upside down for letters like the old “hello” trick. We also have no idea how she made the spaces. The little m was on in the upper left hand corner. The numbers read:
76 721 670
Have fun!
Anon
Are you sure the cleaning staff or other colleagues aren’t pranking you?
Anonymous
Or a mouse crawling around on your desk?
Fun for Friday
Ew. That’s a very gross thought.
We could write a book of ghost stories that have gone on here so I do believe in it but I have no way of knowing if each individual instance of something is the ghost or not. We are just having fun here talking about it. Cleaning staff comes on Wed so it wasn’t them. My calculator powers off on its own and is solar powered so it would be hard for someone else to leave that for me unless they did it as they saw me pulling in. It was on when I walked in. No one can figure out how to even make the numbers spaced like that to begin with. A large number has commas at the top. This had no commas, just spaces.
Thoughts currently in the running: lottery number, IP address, date and time (but that doesn’t totally make sense either), numbers stand for letters.
Don’t worry, it’s all in good fun. No need to order up a mental eval for me. I’m back to doing my usual work but thought someone might have some fun with it too.
Anon
I believe there could be a friendly ghost and don’t think you need a mental evaluation – my perspective is just coloured by my own coworkers ;-).
Anonymous
FWIW, I’m a scientist through and through, but I believe in ghosts/angels/what have you.
PHX
Sean Spicer’s Twitter password? (PS I <3 the idea of a friendly ghost. See if you can get her to answer discovery requests in the middle of the night!)
Anonymous
Bahaha.
Fun for Friday
Fave ghost story is she saved a sentimental earring of mine. It fell out when I was on the phone. I couldn’t find it. My coworker spent time after I left crawling around on his hands and knees looking for it because he knew how much it meant to me. The next day I walked into my office, turned on my computer, remembered the earring issue, went back out in the hall and told my assistant. She said “that’s too bad, the cleaning crew vacuumed last night.” I walked back into my office and it was right there, inside the doorway, on the carpet, clear as could be. I wouldn’t have missed that, she wouldn’t have (she had been in my office that day), the guy who crawled around the night before wouldn’t have missed it. Our theory is ghost kept it safe and dropped it back for me to find when I stepped out of my office to ask about it.
Anonymous
I love it!
Pesh
So cool! Tell us about others things she’s done!
Tax Filing Status?
Q for the CPAs and tax lawyers here:
My brother got married last summer. His wife lives in Europe and will for the immediate future. (She has a good job and owns an apartment there, and they are still sorting out immigration status for her to move here eventually.) They don’t have merged finances, and she has no income in the US and was here only about six weeks total last year. Should he file his taxes as a single person? Can he do so, if he’s legally married?
(He has very simple taxes so will use TurboTax or something, or I’d just tell him to ask his accountant. I’m a lawyer but not a tax lawyer.)
TIA
Anonymous
He is married. Period. He cannot file as single.
He can file as married filing separately but should run the numbers before doing to — it may be to his advantage to file jointly (and it will be complex to figure this out).
Anonymous
He cannot file as single if he is married. He can file as married-filing jointly or married-filing separately. I don’t think his taxes are all that simple and he should consider an accountant.
Anonymous
He can’t file as single if he’s married. This sounds like a super complicated situation and I think he needs an accountant. TurboTax is great for many people, but if he tries to use it he will likely create a huge mess and significantly underpay or overpay.
Anonymous
I don’t think Turbo Tax even has an option for a spouse in a foreign country. I’ve successfully used it in situations where my spouse and I lived in different states and each earned income in both states, but a different country is a whole other matter.
Tax Filing Status?
Okay; thanks everyone. I guess his taxes simple but aren’t any more.
Tax Filing Status?
This was supposed to say, I guess his taxes WERE simple but aren’t any more.
Walnut
He’s be best served by a CPA.
CPA Lady
Yep. + a million.
This is not a situation that can be handled by someone using turbo tax.
Anon
He needs an accountant. This is a complex situation.
And I say this as someone who has always done her own taxes, but will be using an accountant this year, because: 1) I got married, 2) I moved to a different state to join my husband, 3) I now work from home full-time, 4) my husband used to own a small business (ended it this year). I am smart and think I did a great job with my simple taxes for years, but I would f*ck that up unless I spent hours and hours learning how to do it properly, and I’d rather just spend the money to have an expert do it for me.
Also, for us, due to income differences, if we file married-separate instead of married-joint, I would owe approximately $12k at tax time (he would not). Joint, we’ll probably get about ~1K as a refund.
Tax Filing Status?
Thanks for all the responses; this group is great.
Torin
Make sure the person he’s hiring to do the taxes is knowledgeable about tax treaties. I had an absolute bear of a time getting coherent advice on how to collect a tax refund from the UK as a US citizen some years ago. Many accountants might be perfectly capable of doing complex taxes for a person living in the US but might not know how to handle a complex situation like this.
Anonymous
He must file as married. He needs to get an ITIN for his wife to be able to include her on his taxes. I married an immigrant, and this is what we did. Definitely get a CPA to assist.
SALTy CPA
Not sure if you are still looking, but please make sure the CPA has International Tax experience – not all of us do :)
Nabby
Thank you to whoever suggested longform.org a while back! So many interesting reads I wouldn’t have found otherwise
It’s actually great if you like reading articles but don’t want to read the news right now too
Mrs. Jones
I love Longform too!
Anon
Reading it right now myself!
Nabby
The first story about the boys in Mexico . . . is graphic
Anon
I’m making my way through the Rolling Stone article about Pence. Thanks for the warning!
Newbie Associate
I save all my Longreads in the Pocket app! It’s so nice to have them downloaded (w/ or w/o Internet) to enjoy wherever.
I’m obsessed with longreads of any kind!
Marshmallow
This is such a great find! Thank you!
PatsyStone
Ooh I think that was me! There’s also a long form podcast that interviews writers/nonfiction creators about their work and process. I write as a component of my job but it has made me think diferently about approaching writing for work of any kind. So glad you enjoy.
Meg March
Any recs for a happy light?
Anonymous
Costco
Betty
The Sunbox Company was one of two companies that had lights that actually fulfilled the requirements of the prescription that my husband received. We paid about $200 but it has been worth it!
Sunflower
Verilux HappyLight Deluxe 10,000 LUX Sunshine Simulator, available on Amazon. Don’t get a light with less than 10,000 LUX because it won’t work as well.
Hollis
I have a “Daylight” from Amazon and it looks like a regular lamp. you can use it in the bright mode for light therapy or just normally as a desk lamp, so it’s great for the office.
lsc
Coobie Bra
I need to purchase a bra with no underwire and no metal hooks to visit clients in state prison. Recently, the prisons in my state have refused to allow attorneys with underwire bras to visit clients. Yesterday, I went to a prison with an non underwire bra, but the bra hooks were a problem. It’s ridiculous, I know. A fellow attorney recommended a Coobie bra. I am a 32DDD. Has anyone with a similar bra size purchased a Coobie bra? If so, what size worked? I have problems with bras that are sized S,M,L, etc. If the band fits, the cups do not and vice versa.
Blonde Lawyer
I can help! I am 32DDD and wear the larger Coobie bra with the pads removed. It’s not as supportive as a regular bra/sports bra but it keeps the girls from bouncing everywhere or feeling painful. I wear it running errands on the weekend, lounging around the house or on long flights. My girls don’t sit as perky in it but it does the job good enough.
Blonde Lawyer
They must have changed their sizing. I noticed your question re: s/m/l and when I bought it was one size fits all or full size. I went with full size.
Also wears a large bra
I’m a 32G and I recently discovered the H&M Mama nursing tanks. They are amazing! Plenty of room and decent support, plus very affordable. And all the hooks are plastic
Anonymous
OMG the Coobie was the most life-changing good thing that has happened to me lately. I just bought 5 (yoga and regular) to replace some that I ruined through 24 months of pregnant / nursing / pumping at work. So I think that they are perfect and can take a beating. I am 30D not pregnant/nursing and they were prefect for me. I LOVE THEM OMG I LOVE THEM. I am wearing a yoga one today as I type and wear them to the gym unless I’m doing a lot of sweaty bouncy cardio or tennis.
Godzilla
Can you wear a sports bra? With molded cups?
lsc
I purchased a “ta-ta tamer” from Lululemon – bra sizing, no underwire, but metal hooks. I thought I was being smart – I could wear it to a prison, and also to work out. I did not anticipate the issue with metal hooks. I think I’ll order a Coobie and see how it fits. It doesn’t have to be the best most supportive bra because I normally wear a very modest blouse with a blazer to see an inmate. I just don’t want to have any more discussions with the prison security guards about my undergarments.
Anonymous
I’m a 32DD and have had some success with Yummie bralettes. The Olive art deco lace soft cup bra would probably fit you in a size S – the cups are the biggest I have ever come across and there are no hooks. It does have adjustable straps, so not sure if that would be a problem. I also have another one (Dawn?) that does not have hooks or adjusters that is ok.
lsc
Thanks – I will check them out
Anonymous
The hooks are a problem?!? Do they treat the hooks on pants or skirt waistbands the same way? How do they even know there are hooks–do they set off the metal detector? Is it even possible to set a metal detector to be that sensitive?
I have never visited a client in jail, so I am trying to envision how this all plays out in practice.
lsc
It’s the first time I’ve encountered an issue with hooks. Here’s how it played out: First they examined my file folder and told me I had too many documents and that I could not bring in the folder and binder clips. I took out the necessary documents and they approved them. I had to take the remainder of the documents, binder and the clips back to my car along with my watch. My purse was already locked in the car. After that I had to remove my jacket and they looked at my skirt so that they could make sure there was nothing in my pockets. Then I had to take off some jewelry and my shoes. The metal detector went off so I took off my wedding rings. It went off again. The guard said, “it must be your undergarments.” I told him that I had a wireless bra on. He said “it must be the hooks. Put your hand over the hooks and walk sideways through the metal detector.” That was successful and I was allowed to see my client. My visit with my client was in a room, and he was behind several layers of plexiglass and spoke to me through a speaker, so there is no way I could smuggle bra hooks to him (even if I wanted to) It’s insane. I asked the guards what they were afraid a female attorney would do with a bra while visiting a client. Their response was that it’s a problem because it “sets off the metal detector.” Okay….
Anonymous at 11:18
Good grief! I can see why you are shopping for a Coobie. Next time I get slowed down at court security because of my shoes, I will not feel quite so bad.
lsc
I’ve been a criminal defense lawyer for 29 years, and I thought I’d seen everything. I never thought that I would need a special “prison bra.”
Anonymous
Wow, that’s intense.
Another option: Bravado nursing tanks have no metal and work well for that size (I’m 32G when nursing). You can easily ignore the plastic clips (which are nice and secure – I’ve worn them for years without any issue with accidental unclipping) and have yourself a nice support tank. Their sleep bras don’t have any either, if my memory is right, but they are lower support than the tanks IMO.
I’ve been wondering how the coobie works for our size. Thanks for asking.
Query re law firm bonuses
New to a biglaw firm. Firm is in the bottom quartile of AMLAW100.
We just received word this week that people who hit hours were only “eligible” for bonuses, but only those who did “quality work” on “complex matters” were paid bonuses, so approximately 45% of people who did hit hours did not get a bonus at all. Isn’t this odd for biglaw?
I know in the corporate world, bonuses are more discretionary, but in law, the unstated compact is that if you work your hours, you will get a bonus. Is it time to lateral when I can?
I know this isn’t only about the money, but…it kind of is, if you give up your life and then your firm weasels out. Thoughts?
Senior Attorney
Certainly they are telling you that you are in the bottom half of your peer group. My thought is that yes, it’s probably time to lateral.
Anonymous
Eh, my AmLaw100 firm was similar – only about half of eligible associates got bonuses. Who was chosen was incredibly political and basically depended on whether you were a pet of one of the partners charged with handing out bonuses. They also tended to allocate more money to more senior associates, which meant there wasn’t much leftover for juniors. I was there for four years and I never got a bonus, but I always got glowing reviews and was promoted every year. This is certainly not a good sign, and I would be frustrated too, but I also don’ think it means your job is in jeopardy or you need to lateral right now.
OP
I wasn’t bonus eligible this year (because new to firm). But I agree this seemed odd for the firm’s LT financial health/willingness to compensate associates. Who is getting a bonus does seem very political, certainly. We are not the Mother Ship, so our partners have less pull than Mother Ship.
Man, I miss my old firm where this was not how it was done.
Marshmallow
Yeah, I’d consider that a judgment on both my own work and the financial health of the firm. That’s not normal.
Kitchen Cabinet Refacing
Has anyone done this versus cabinet replacing? This would not be DIY.
We are in our “right now” home, versus the “forever” home, but our kitchen was last done in 1982 and we’d like to update it to match the rest of the house before we sell, which is still many (5??) years out. Everything is solid, blonde/golden oak (gross), but in excellent condition. Custom cabinets are super expensive, and I’m wondering if refacing would (a) save money; (b) still be of a high enough quality that it doesn’t present as if we took a shortcut.
Thoughts?
OP
Whyyyyyy was this in moderation?! Other posts of mine went up just fine this morning. Ugh. I’ll probably repost in the afternoon thread.
nutella
you’d think they would have an exception for it, but it’s because you wrote “excell3nt” which has “ell3n” in it
Senior Attorney
I had my cabinets re-faced way back in the late 80s. I was happy with it at the time but now I look back and cringe because we had them done in laminate.
I think you’d be better off having them painted. Painted cabinets are super popular right now and I think that would be more attractive to buyers.
Torin
+1 if you’re still reading OP. Have them painted or stained. I would think this would be considerably less expensive than new cabinets.
FWIW, my house was redone in 2008, and my cabinets are painted with a faux-antique finish. That particular finish is probably starting to look a little dated, but you can have them finished a different way.
ITDS
We had this done. The replaced all the doors with new, modern looking ones, and the covered up all the edges and outside surfaces of the existing cabinets with matching veneer. We also had them add a pantry cabinet and a kitchen island. It was WAY cheaper than replacing the old kitchen, and looks very nice. If it’s done properly it will not look like you took a shortcut.
Pesh
You could also just go to a cabinet maker and order more modern door and drawer fronts for them in the color or stain you want. Then have the cabinet frames stained or painting to match. A kitchen reno place can do that for you, definitely a good option.
Nordstroms Tailoring?
Can I ask Nordstroms to pay for minor repairs on a newish pair of pants I bought from them? I got a pair of work pants (Emerson Rose) in November that I’ve worn 2/3 times. Yesterday I noticed that the stitching on one of the back ‘pockets’ (looks like a pocket but isn’t) is coming undone, i.e. I can stick my finger through the pants and touch my underwear. I like the pants – it took forever to find pants that aren’t inappropriate on me between the hips and thighs and I got them hemmed – but I’m annoyed that $120 pants are coming apart by the third wear. Basically, I would like to take them into the Nordstrom’s Rack in my town (no Nordstroms) and get the pocket repaired by the tailor there.
Is Nordstroms amenable to covering minor repairs for new(ish) items. I don’t want to be one of ‘those’ customers but I also don’t want to pay to fix 2 months old, $120 pants (but I will if I’m being too entitled). (If it matters I do have a Nordstroms card)
Thanks!
COtoNY
I think they would definitely repair them, and I don’t think it’s entitled to expect them to at all. However, I would call customer service first and get them to agree to doing so before bringing them in, especially to a Nordstrom Rack. Try to get some sort of repair confirmation from customer service that you can show to the tailor.
Anon
How about cosmetics? I bought the wrong Clinique lotion (lotion, not gel) and I don’t have the receipt anymore. I’m sure it’s a super long shot, but I haven’t opened it and just want a simple exchange. Am I SOL?
COtoNY
They usually put a sticker on their cosmetics/beauty products that allows them to scan/return them easily. Is that sticker still on your product? Even if not, I would still try to go to Nordstrom and see if they can look up the transaction (by credit card, especially if you used a Nordstrom card). And even if all of that doesn’t work I still think there’s a chance they would do the exchange.
anon
They’re more likely to do an exchange/refund than fix them for free. Something like this falls under a manufacturing defect – they can send it back to the manufacturer and get some sort of credit. If they have their tailor fix the pants, the store is out that time and money.
If it makes you feel less entitled, I’ve totally done this at Nordstrom. On one occasion, I was wearing a dress for the second time – it fit properly and I wasn’t doing anything strenuous – when the entire side seam just came apart. Fortunately I was at a close friend’s house and we all just laughed about it but yeesh. It was something like 6 months after I’d purchased it so they didn’t have another, but they refunded the whole amount. I didn’t ask about fixing the seam and they didn’t offer.
Anonymous
I had the opposite experience at Nordstrom–a hole developed in the pocket of a coat after I’d worn it once, and when I took it back and asked to return it the clerk suggested having their tailor repair the hole instead.
Anon
If a friend complains about a job ALL THE TIME, WWYD? We’ve been close friends for a long time — 12+ yrs. Both lawyers – very different interests. She did the biglaw thing for 4 yrs and was good at it but hated it – just not her interest. Left to go to a non profit which has a mission she loves but is sort of a disaster — she knew what she was walking into though bc she worked there for 2-3 yrs before law school.
Fast forward – it’s been 5 yrs at the NP and it’s CONSTANT complaining. I do get/sympathize with some of it. She loves the mission and works super hard, yet it’s a small non profit with 2-3 other attys who’ve all been there for 10-20 yrs who view it as a paycheck. They stroll into work a few times a week, don’t do much, and collect their pay; while my friend is working until 10 pm. This is her choice (she too could work 40 hrs a wk or probably much less but obv the clients wouldn’t be taken care of); over 5 yrs she has grown bitter, resentful, and frankly a bit unreasonable about it.
When she first got there it was CONSTANT head butting with her bosses about how they needed to change the culture and there needs to be accountability. Yeah right — if someone is paying you 85k to work 10 hrs a wk, you’re not going to change that bc some do gooder thinks you should. Now it’s just CONSTANT resentment. And bc she’s the only one who does work over there, she has developed this weird thing (which she kind of had at the law firm too) where she TOTALLY resents any kind of instruction or involvement from anyone else. She’s incredulous when the legal director is on one of her calls or attending a court hearing with her. She’s incredulous if I mention that I (in a different workplace) need to circulate a depo outline so my partner can review/add questions if they want; she’s stunned that I don’t resent that – while I’m like – it’s not just MY case, I’d like senior leadership in the loop.
She’s looking to move on (has been saying that for 3 yrs but now I think she is). I’ve advised and yet I just can’t hear the complaining anymore. I’ve gently mentioned that law is a team sport -and I feel like it’s going to be a problem for her that she just feels like she shouldn’t need to take direction, ever. WWYD!?
Godzilla
I would tell her (and I have) that she’s only allowed to complain about the same topic 3 times. And that’s it. That’s the rule.
TorontoNewbie
Tell her to move or stop complaining.
Say that you’re willing to help her apply to other jobs / network if you area. Review her letter, go to events, whatever but say that the complaining about the job is stressing you out and frustrating.
Same script as when someone is constantly complaining about their partner. I’m willing to listen for a while, but at a certain point if nothing changes I have too much going on to just continue listening. Obviously a different situation that someone who has something they can’t control going on (illness or whatnot).
Anon
OP here — and whatever I say/try to do to help, gets shot down. For example – we were at a networking event and it turns out the partner she worked for exclusively at her firm was there. Encouraged her to go say hi to get some facetime/rekindle that connection — nope. Said I was happy to go over there with her and we’d both say hi and get the convo rolling and then I’d drop away and let them talk — nope. We have a bunch on peers in common who are doing things that may works for her (like starting her own business) — have encouraged her to reach out — she will eventually but not now.
And then she wastes her mental energy reaching out to people who WILL NOT help (i.e. they’re at the same org and do no want their work horse to leave but aren’t going to change the org to suit her either) — and then when that doesn’t go well, I get to hear about it; and the whole time I’m trying not to say “told you so.”
anon
I’ve both been that person and been on the receiving end. When I’m on the receiving end, like you, I just change the subject constantly without replying about work stuff. or say in a really bright voice, “ok no more work talk – let’s chat about XYZ happy topic!” When I’ve realized that I’ve become that person, that’s how I absolutely know it’s time to move on and get a new job. I’ve asked others, too – have I become that person? And I’ve (gently) pointed that out to others. When I realize that I complain all the time about my job, then it’s time to move on. The longer she stays the harder it is to move on emotionally.
Nabby
What do you think of men at work opening doors for women colleagues (same level etc), letting them go through first “ladies first”, and other things like that?
Just being polite? How they were raised? Not ideal but not awful?
Anonymous
I guess I would say not ideal but not awful. I don’t think that kind of differentiating between men and women (or the implication that the man is stronger) is appropriate in the workplace, but I also recognize that the overwhelming majority of guys who do this are just trying to be polite. There are so many instances of workplace sexism that are actually harmful and this is so benign, it doesn’t feel like something worth fighting over.
Anonymous
I tend to agree about having people open doors for me.
I will say that I once had a male summer associate try to insist on paying for a lunch that I, a mid-level associate, had invited him to, because “a gentleman should always treat a lady” and I hit the roof and complained to the summer associate coordinator about it. His words were what really made me complain, but even the actions alone would have been super annoying.
Anon
That would have been a good opportunity to explain to him that it’s different in a work environment, instead of complaining about him.
Senior Attorney
+1
The poor lad was just super confused about context — work vs social. It would have been a kindness to set him straight.
Anonymous
I did tell him directly at lunch and he pushed back. It was also not the only comment he made that indicated that his views of women were stuck in the distant past.
Senior Attorney
Well then. Carry on.
lawsuited
I agree. Not ideal but not awful. I hold doors open for people too, so I understand that it comes from a place of politeness/helpfulness.
anon
A total non-issue. Nice if they do it gracefully, not a problem in the least if they don’t do it.
H
+1
hoola hoopa
+1
Way too much energy is spent on this, IMO. Put that energy towards an actual issue.
Nabby
It’s not energy, it’s a stray thought.
Anonymous
I assume polite, absent any other indications. And if I get to the door first and have a hand free, I hold the door. Mostly, it’s just less time-consuming to walk thru the darn door than do the “you first, no you first” dance.
Anonymous
Context matters a lot. I work in a very egalitarian government office in Canada. My boss’s boss, her boss, and the next level above are all women. Most of the men are actively involved dads (e.g. book meetings around having to pick kid up at school and drop to after school care). Allowing women to get on elevator first or holding the door is standard. BUT – it’s unspoken – I think it would feel awkward if a big deal was made out of it. Tendency is also to allow high status to go first. So I would step on the elevator before my immediate boss (male) but after his boss (woman). Sounds complicated when I write it out but it’s totally smooth in practice. There is also a general tendency towards politeness – so I wouldn’t hesitate to hold the door for another woman or reach back and hold the door for someone if I’d already walked through.
ANon
I say, “Thank you,” and go through the door first.
Senior Attorney
Yup.
NYCer
+1. And honestly, I appreciate it too!
Delta Dawn
I think it is just a nice thing to do. I hold doors for people (men and women), and I am raising my son to hold the door for people (men and women). I don’t think the people who are holding doors are considering whether the person they are holding the door for is at the same level as they are– I think they’re just being polite.
Monday
I am not offended by this, but also don’t want to actively reinforce it. Often, two doors are close together and if a man I’m walking with opens the first for me, then I’m in a position to open the second one for him and I do so. In an elevator, I sometimes gesture for men to get out before me too.
Nabby
Yeah this is what I do too. It’s not a bad thing, but it doesn’t need to happen either.
Torin
Generally, this.
But, I have occasionally had experiences with men going to ridiculous lengths to make sure they get to the door first, or otherwise being over the top about insisting that a woman shouldn’t have to open a door, and in those cases I’ve said something. Usually just “I’m fully capable of opening a door you know.”
Anonymous
Expected and appreciated.
Godzilla
Seriously? Expected?
Anonymous
A giant eyeroll to you. I don’t think it’s offensive, but “expected” and “appreciated”? Gag.
Anonymous
Melania, is that you?
Anonymous
Why are you all so angry?
Engines
It drives me nuts. I am one of very few women in a male-dominated department (engineering). I know it’s just how they were raised, I know they’re being polite, I know “their mom would be disappointed if they didn’t open the door for me”, etc. But I am constantly trying to prove that I am equal to them (especially since I am not only the only woman in the department, but I am also the youngest person in the department). Having them open doors for me is a constant reminder that I’m not equal. It’s one thing when they open the door and it is convenient to let me go first, but I really hate it when they awkwardly step out of the way and shuttle me through first- it slows everyone down. Most of the guys I work with very frequently have figured out that I prefer to open my own door and/or to hold it open for them as often as they do for me. But there is a good handful of slightly older guys with more traditional views, who still awkwardly insist on holding every single door for me, even if their hands are full and mine are not.
Godzilla
Agreed. Every man I’ve ever held the door open for has been appreciative and eventually figured out that they’re wasting their time awkward grabbing the door over my head or behind me to be chivalrous. I’ve also decided to not give a flying f9ck and not hold doors open when I’m with a group of people – I charge ahead, go through the door and hold it open for the person behind me because I’m done with this stupid awkward dance.
Marshmallow
I’m a raging feminist (in the best sense, of course) and this does not bother me at all. I hold doors for whoever is behind me, male or female. It’s only awkward if the man makes a comment about it like, “ladies first!”
My only pet peeves are when it just makes no sense– I’ve had men at the front of a crowded elevator awkwardly try to shuffle to the side to let me out when it would be easier and faster if they just walked out. Just walk, dude!
Jules
+1
Amy
+1 also. There are way more troublesome behaviors to be concerned about. Like people who spit on the sidewalk, or leave half-full soda cans propped precariously on the side of the recycling bin (what is that about??). I open doors for people, sometimes people open doors for me. Courtesy and consideration of others is nice.
SC
I live in the South, and it’s normal for men to hold doors open for women, let them get on the elevator first, let them order first at restaurants, etc. I don’t let it bother me, and I just go with the flow. I think this is too trivial and too benign to make a big deal of and would likely lead to people taking you less seriously when it came to serious and detrimental forms of sexism.
Anon
I say “thank you” in a genuine way and sail through. This is not the hill I choose to die on.
Ginger
So yesterday I signed up for a bunch of liberal / anti trump groups online. This morning I woke up and found two really obviously virus-carrying emails in my g mail inbox. I don’t see anything similar to them in style in my junk / spam folders. I’m not totally sure I got the emails as a result of joining the liberal orgs (which are pretty mainstream, or friends are promoting them on fb), but Occam’s razor….has this happened to anyone else? Do I need to take any further precautions?
Anonymous
I wouldn’t worry about it unless you downloaded an attachment or entered your password at a link you followed from the email.
Anon
I’m a southerner who’s moved to D.C. and I’m feeling winter footwear challenged haha. I know we’ve had a super mild winter so far, but I’m stumped on what to wear on the weekends when it’s cold but dry. Tomorrow my boyfriend and I are going to walk around Annapolis for the day – it’s supposed to be 45*. I have Bean boots, which I feel silly wearing on a sunny day, and riding boots, which feel dated. Am I missing some footwear option?
COtoNY
Chelsea (ankle) boots.
Tetra
+1. I wear either Chelsea boots or about 10-inch high moto boots.
AJ
Any recommendations on professional-looking Chelsea boots with a low heel (no more than 1.5″–I have back issues)?
AnonNP
Sam Edelman Chelsea Petty booties – so comfortable, wear them almost every day!
Anonymous
Nothing wrong with riding boots! Ankle boots are a pretty good option too.
givemyregards
I wear my bean boots all the time on sunny days when it’s cold and never really thought about it. Since they’ve transitioned to being popular for their look I don’t think anyone would think twice about it. Otherwise I second ankle boots (maybe ones that hit just above the ankle so you can wear comfy socks)
Growing Pains?
I love practicing law and my firm. I think I’m one of t hose weird people who might actually like this thing (I’m secondary market BL). Things are going fairly well, but I notice that I’m starting to get more responsibility (which is flattering), but I do not feel prepared to do some of the tasks required of me. I know that law school doesn’t prepare you for practice, but I mean I still have to get stuff done.
I have a great team of sr. associates who review my work and give feedback, but I’ve started to get work directly from partners and since our office is smaller than big city BL (only new associate in my practice group), I’ve been asked to give my work directly to partners a few times now and I’ve gotten good feedback (and lots of red pen, of course). So the question I guess is: How do I become a good associate? I’m generally very detail oriented and have been consistent with good work product, good timeline adherence, no typos, etc. How do you learn on the fly when you’re asked to do something while someone is on a conference call and needs the answer right at that moment? I know everyone talks about expectations and how no one expects first years to know things, but I’m wondering how true this is–where should I be competent and where should I be incompetent?
I really like my job and want to do well with all the new responsibilities coming my way.
Betty
You are doing great, and rising to the expectations of those around you as evidenced by being given more responsibility. Do your best on the work that is given to you, take the feedback and incorporate it next time you are asked to do the same task, and keep doing those tasks outside of your comfort zone. It sounds like you are in a supportive office that is helping you to grow. I would trust that they are giving you tasks that are just on that edge of you capability, and the only way you will become comfortable is by doing. Trust your own capabilities, and it will get easier.
Depression
Not sure if it’s too late for this thread (will repost in afternoon if it is). Looking for stories about people who had suffered from chronic depression all their lives who got better. What does “better” look like? Does the self-loathing, fear of rejection, feeling that things will never get better go away? Does the skewed view of the world lift and become a more realistic, rational view?
MB
Hi! I have been treated on and off for depression for almost 20 years. It can get better, absolutely. I have treated mine over the years with a combination of medication, therapy, and self-care. The medication and therapy were by far the most effective.
For me, better looks like having self-confidence, not being my own harshest critic/liking myself, recognizing it’s okay to feel my feelings and to tell people about them, not being a dooms-dayer, not thinking everything is the end of the world, not having erratic mood swings, having good coping skills for (now infrequent) anxiety, being more optimistic than pessimistic, and generally enjoying my life 90% of the time.
New Tampanian
I have lived with depression since I was very young. My “dark state” isn’t quite as bad as others however one of the things you learn about depression is that it looks differently for everyone. Comparing to others is not usually helpful and fees into a lot of the lies that depression tells you.
“Better” is different for everyone. For some people it will be getting out of bed and showering. Even those who are super “successful” (I am purposely using quotation marks as that is so subjective) have days where it will be hard to do that. It’s a matter of having more “good” than “bad” days, right? So for me, it means being able to pull myself together in a professional manner, focus on work that needs to be completed, being a little sociable and doing all of the little things that are good for m.
My “bad” days are me not showering for a few days, not talking to anyone, barely eating (or eating all of the bad things) and not being able to focus on a single productive thing.
An example of an in-between but closer to bad day is yesterday: I could barely focus all day at work. I ruminated on this terrible new president and all the things that I cannot control. I ate $16 worth of taco bell for dinner. Went to bed at 7:30 pm and slept until about 8 am this morning.
Through medication and CBT, I have way more good days than bad. I will have occasional in-between days like above. CBT has been very helpful for me. Getting out of a bad work situation, bad love-life situation, all were helpful as well.
Be kind to yourself. It CAN get better.
OP
Your in-between day is pretty much every day for my husband. (1) Ruminating on bad thing — lately that his career is a failure (it’s not. Not by a long shot. The opposite in fact.) (2) Feeling guilty for ruminating on bad thing instead of doing work. Running through all “bad” things — career is a failure, too much bad food, no exercise, everything is bad (except that he has a successful career, loving wife, adorable kids, stable work, etc. — I realize this isn’t what depression is about, but it’s still frustrating, especially since he’s perpetually dissatisfied with our life). (3) Not having energy to go to gym. (4) Eating Taco Bell. (5) Eating more junk. (6) Feeling like a pathetic, useless person for failing to have willpower to go to gym and/or resist junk food. (7) Lie listlessly on couch watching videos.
This is easily 9 out of 10, or even 19 out of 20 days. Maybe even 99 out of 100.
New Tampanian
Lots of hugs to you. This is not an easy disease for anyone in the depressed person’s life.
anon
I’ve been living with depression that I treat with medication. I’m very aware of the impact on my spouse and try to be as supportive to him in return. However, I also grew up with a very depressed father and know what it was like to live with. What you just described, him thinking his failure is your fault – that’s not depression. In just my own anecdotal experience, depression for me was very inward focused. You are not at fault or responsible for his feelings or his depression. This sounds like deflection, at best. I know how hard it is to support a spouse through an illness like this, BUT putting it back on you is wrong. You are not the problem. Don’t feel guilty or like you have to stay with someone who is blaming you for their problems. I’m glad you are in counseling independently. Please carefully consider staying with someone who blames you for their problems. My father did that constantly – everything and everyone else was the reason for his lack of success and unhappiness. He is also verbally abusive. I didn’t realize that it could be different until I moved out. He is still like that, 30 years later. I wish my mother had the will to leave.
Betty
I cannot give advice from the inside, but I absolutely can from the outside looking in. My husband has always struggled with the depression in the 17 years we have been together, and severely depressed for at least five of those years. His lows were … very low. From the outside looking in, and from an interaction perspective, “better” is not necessarily happiness or great! days, but a lifting of the feelings of hopelessness and a return of emotions. For him it has been the return of all emotions: joy, yes, but also anger and sadness. He can more easily differentiate between “wow, that was a bad day for anyone” and “I am struggling with depression and the things that it tells me.” He is less critical of the world and more willing to see shades of gray, own his actions and not take the reactions/emotions of others as indicators of his personal worth. It is his ability to have self-compassion and compassion for others. So, yes, there is a better world to be obtained, and any message to the contrary is depression being a jerk and lying to you. He still has days that are hard, but he know recognizes that that day was just a day. It gets better. Hang in there.
AnonNP
My therapist recommended Mindfulness CBT – 8 week program. I bought this Mindful Way Workbook, for Depression and Emotional Distress: Teasdale, Williams, & Segal. It’s been very helpful for me!
Op
Thanks. I’m the spouse, not the depressed person so this is encouraging. Being able to see shades of gray would be great. Also not believing I’m the source of his problems would be great too.
cbackson
So your last sentence is an entirely different problem than his depression. Are you all in counseling, or do you see someone yourself? Because I imagine it must be very, very hard to be you right now.
Betty
Couples counseling is really tough when one spouse is depressed because what ends up being treated in the couples’ session is the spouse’s depression. In my experience, that can exacerbate some of the underlying frustrations with being married to one who is depressed (the feeling that the depressed spouse’s concerns are addressed while the person who is not depressed remains silent).
Also, depression can have the effect of making the depressed person say that the spouse is the problem, so yeah, unfortunately, they can absolutely be connected. On the other hand, individual counseling can be wonderful for this situation.
OP
He’s in therapy. We’re in therapy. I’m in therapy. We started with couples counseling. Counselor gave us an assessment test. In reading my husband’s answers, he was basically like “dude, you know you’re seriously depressed, right?” (I mean, not those words, but basically that.) And my husband was like yeah, yeah, and I take meds. But he had never done serious counseling before. That was October. Things got worse. In the New Year, he committed to aggressively treating his depression. And he has. But meanwhile, he has had the “realization” that his career problems are my fault. Up side: he’s no longer convinced he’s a failure in his work (that his work is bad, at least). Down side: he’s decided his “failure” is my fault.
Betty
Oh!!! Hugs!
You ARE NOT the cause of your spouse’s depression. It has taken me years and loads of therapy to accept this truth: you cannot cause someone else’s depression. It is not your fault, regardless of what your spouse’s depression is saying.
You are in charge of your own behavior but cannot control how others react. You can set boundaries for how you will be treated today. It is ok to say that you will not be treated as follows: blamed, spoken to harshly, or in general, treated other than with respect. And most importantly, take care of yourself. Eat well, exercise, go out with your friends and continue to enjoy and live your own life. Depression is terribly catching/contagious. Read the book, Depression Fallout. Please do not hesitate to get help for yourself; you need support through this too.
cbackson
This is wise and important advice.
Kenya/Tanzania?
We’re planning to go to Kenya and Tanzania for 3 and a half weeks this summer. Is that enough, or will we be frantically moving from place to place if we try to do both countries in that time period? We’re not planning to climb Kilimanjaro.
Anonymous
Wow, very exciting! My husband and I are going to Tanzania in August to climb Kilimanjaro. I wish we were able to be there as long as you will be. I think total we’re going to be gone 12-13 days, and that includes air travel from the west coast.
Anon254
You can do both. But how frantic you feel depends on the activities you choose to do. I would suggest starting in Kenya and then flying to Tanzania afterwards. Most airlines will stop in Nairobi first. Both countries have similar attractions e.g. beaches and game parks where you can go on safari. But if you want to experience a bit of the city life I suggest spending some time in Nairobi. There’s lots of new restaurants and hotels. For craft or curio shopping, find out where the Maasai Market is on a particular day. The traders sell their wares at different places on different days of the week e.g. on Saturdays its in a large parking lot near the Hilton Hotel. Other shops or brands to check out Kazuri Beads, they have shops at the Junction Mall and at the Village market Mall. Also Banana Box, they have a shop at the Sarit Center and another at the Junction Mall.
Game Parks near Nairobi: Lake Nakuru National Park, was here in November and loved it. Also Hell’s Gate National Park, these are 1.5 to 2 hours drive outside the city. Other famous ones like Maasai Mara are further afield. If you venture to the coast Diani has some great resorts.
Hope these ideas help. I haven’t been to Tanzania but Zanzibar–it’s an island is worth checking out.
anon
awesome, thanks!