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Our daily workwear reports suggest one piece of work-appropriate attire in a range of prices.
Ann Taylor has a ton of options of this split-neck blouse — including this clip dot. It's a pullover style and has sort of cute three-quarter sleeves and a little ruched collar. It's machine washable, and for $79.50 full price, it looks great. Of course, it's Ann Taylor, so keep an eye out for sales. The blouse comes in regular sizes XXS–XXL and petite sizes XXS–XL. Clip Dot Split-Neck Blouse
For plus sizes, try these options from Bobeau and Gibson at Nordstrom.
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Sales of note for 9.30.24
- Nordstrom – Beauty deals through September
- Ann Taylor – Extra 30% off sale
- Banana Republic Factory – 50% off everything + extra 20% off
- Boden – 15% off new styles
- Eloquii – Extra 50% off sale
- J.Crew – 50% off select styles
- J.Crew Factory – Up to 60% off everything + 50% off sale with code
- Lo & Sons – Warehouse sale, up to 70% off
- M.M.LaFleur – Save 25% sitewide
- Neiman Marcus – Friends & Family 25% off
- Rag & Bone – Friends & Family 25% off sitewide
- Spanx – Lots of workwear on sale, some up to 70% off
- Talbots – Fall Cyber Monday sale, 40% off sitewide and $5 shipping
- Target – Car-seat trade-in event through 9/28 — bring in an old car seat to get a 20% discount on other baby/toddler stuff.
- White House Black Market – 40% off select styles
And some of our latest threadjacks here at Corporette (reader questions and commentary) — see more here!
Some of our latest threadjacks include:
- What to say to friends and family who threaten to not vote?
- What boots do you expect to wear this fall and winter?
- What beauty treatments do you do on a regular basis to look polished?
- Can I skip the annual family event my workplace holds, even if I'm a manager?
- What small steps can I take today to get myself a little more “together” and not feel so frazzled all of the time?
- The oldest daughter is America's social safety net — change my mind…
- What have you lost your taste for as you've aged?
- Tell me about your favorite adventure travels…
Help in / complain out
I generally believe that “help in / complain out” to be how you handle high stress things with loved ones: e.g., a friend’s husband was deployed when she had a baby; that was very stressful to her, but she couldn’t complain to her husband really b/c he was in a war zone (they could mutually acknowledge their trials, but she couldn’t really unload, that is what we friends were for who could listen more unconditionally and not feel like our decisions had made her life harder. I suspect it was like that for my mom when she had to drive my dad around and help him when he was often sick after chemo (she leans on her sister for this support, not me).
My husband found it to be very “disloyal” and that he would have hoped that I wouldn’t complain out (I do, I so do, and I’m probably not about to change; if there is anyone who can’t listen uncritically, it is he). It was in the context of work travel (lately, I’ve had a lot, it is brutal and all of the work of being at work + time zone change + being “on” for clients; he sees it as just a lot of fancy restaurant meals while he has to deal with our elementary school kids), so he complains to me as if I am at a party and with no real empathy or understanding (and it makes me feel that I always pay too steep price at home for my work travel).
I’m not sure what my question is (perhaps one where the answer is “you should be in counseling”), but maybe a poll on how help in/complain out works (or doesn’t). I’m sure my dad, while he was in chemo, was very grateful and sympathetic towards my mom (but at the same time would not have been reception to her complaining about it, after all, his other option would be just upping and dying to avoid inconveniencing her??? my parents would mutually never do that ever to each other; they are very kind and thoughtful, if bumbling at times).
Anonymous
Always keep in mind how the listener’s opinion of DH might be affected? That my loose guideline.
Example, I complained/asked for support mostly to family during his health crisis. His parents adore him, nothing I said was going to change that. My mom is very compassionate about health issues and pain (and loves DH), so I knew it was okay.
I feel guilty about some of the day-to-day, complants I tell my mom about work-life-balance stuff, because I know there could be a day when she loses some respect for DH because of what I’ve said. In some ways it’s safer to vent a little to my long-married freinds, who just say, “aw, give it 20 years, you’ll work it out”.
Anonymous
I think you’re making this black and white. I think it’s absolutely absurd to say you should never be able to complain to your partner when they’re deployed, and you aren’t deployed! He is carrying a burden too! Focus on communicating and problem solving not some nonsense about how he should just be complaining to someone else.
Cat
I’m a little confused because your example of your friend’s problem isn’t the same as yours. She needs somewhere to vent about the struggles of her husband being deployed and obviously can’t vent to her husband because it’s not fair to him to just unload all of that. Your chemo example is similar — of course the person’s partner can’t complain about chemo TO the cancer patient!
YOU have an actual issue with your husband undervaluing business travel… which is something that you need to talk directly to your husband about.
Now, whether you need to vent to a trusted friend about your husband being ridiculous (the “complaining out” part)… some people are more sensitive to that than others. I only complain about my husband to my best friend since childhood and even then it’s mostly good natured “would you believe this” type stuff. Otherwise, we are a “unit” to the world and handle disagreements amongst ourselves.
Anonymous
This is what I do. I never complain about my husband to anyone, because I don’t want them to have a bad opinion of him.
Anonymous
I don’t know if I complain about HIM to others, but it’s more among my working mother friends, the struggle is real. The people I know with spouses who travel for work are MEN with SAH wives (who just make it happen; they really could never work again with a FT nanny) or 2-career couples who have a FT nanny just for after-school and sick-kid needs (so no babies –all kids are in grade school). I lump doctors and nurses in b/c even if they don’t travel they are away overnight on a weekly basis.
So we have the same drama. And they get it (I wouldn’t complain to random people or even random friends).
NYNY
There’s a pretty clear line that can be drawn, though. If you are complaining about a *person*, zip it and try to work it out with that person. But if you’re complaining about a situation, absolutely complain out and support in.
OP’s husband is unhappy with her work travel situation and how it impacts him regarding home and childcare duties. He should find someone else to vent to instead of piling on OP when she’s already stressed by the situation.
Anonymous
I think she’d rather that her husband be complaining out about her work travel rather than burdening her with that on top of what she’s dealing with at home/on the road.
Anonymous
YES — OMG so much this
Esp. if Husband is complaining about stuff that Wife is taking care of all the time when she’s not on travel.
Anonymous
Yes — I don’t even bother my husband (much less complain to him) when he is travelling for work or when he left for a week when my MIL had surgery. I get that it is hard and it’s not the time/place for burdening you with my complaints about how much harder your travelling has made it for me.
Anon
YES– My husband does this too. I just deal with stuff like this and make do. DH wants to talk through every issue, etc. I hate it.
Anonymous
I think you’re really asking how people communicate in relationships. We have a policy of radical, but respectful honesty. To use your example of work travel, I would expect him to say all the ways it’s irritating him, but I’d also expect he’d listen to all of my thoughts and feelings on it. We would then problem solve together with an understanding of how we really feel. I personally don’t get only letting friends “in” to my real thoughts and feelings. I think that’s what your partner deserves – your true feelings. But you have to have a strong communication capability in your relationship for that to work, and that’s a muscle you have to exercise regularly. You can develop that in therapy but you can also just decide to share more and have a communications policy. We literally have a policy and force each other to share the real deal. I’d expect. I less in the cancer, military examples either. That’s how you stay close to each other.
Panda Bear
I generally agree with you. Straight up complaining to a sick spouse about their sickness, a deployed spouse about their deployment, or a work-travelling spouse about their work travel would be unproductive at best, cruel at worst. Outsiders – good friends, therapists, internet strangers – are the resource I need in cases like that to ‘complain’ to, to vent. I think there is a difference, though, between complaining and problem solving, the latter which may need to be done ‘in’. That is to say, if my husband is doing something that drives me nuts, (and that he has some control over) the solution might be just venting to a friend, but if it’s a major problem that needs to change, then I do need to ‘complain’ to him, but with the approach of ‘hey, we need to find a solution to this thing’ rather than just ‘you are driving me crazy’. And of course, some problems can’t be solved… if my husband is terminally ill I’m not going to attempt to ‘problem solve’ how we can fix it. But I would find comfort in venting to friends about how hard it is to deal with.
Anonymous
Is your expectation that he not complain about solo parenting to you? I don’t think that’s realistic. You don’t sound very empathetic about how hard solo parenting can be.
My DH rarely travels, has been gone all week and I just booked a half day spa day on Sunday to recover. Solo parenting 3 kids while working fulltime is hard.
I’d take being the travelling parent over the solo parenting parent, all day everyday.
Anonymous
I think this is a great illustration of the poster’s point. Business travel is often much tougher then is perceived (not always). This week I’ve slept an average of 5 hours a night, taken four fights with atill one another one tonight, slept in three different hotel beds, and only had about 2 hours to myself where I wasn’t working on Tuesday night.
It’s not that solo parenting is easy, but it’s pretty disrespectful to dismiss how tough business travel can be.
Anonymous
I actually do twice as much business travel as DH so I know what I’m talking about when I say I’d take it over solo parenting every time.
Anonymous
IDK — it is immensely stressful to me b/c we have clients who expect first-ring service. Even a long in-town meeting always brings the drama and if you are in a face-to-face meeting you can’t just keep watching your phone. Clients don’t ever ring the next person on a team — they always want THEIR LAWYER. Throw in time delays / differences, being out of pocket, working on a small screen, bad internet and it is a NIGHTMARE. Even if we only let one person on our team be on travel at once, it is just so, so, hard.
I’d love a world where I could unplug or travel only for leisure. In my next life I will not be a lawyer.
Anonymous
You do get that you are choosing this? I’m a lawyer, I travel for work two days a year, and clients do not expect instant access.
Anonymous
And I’d love a week where I got as much as 5 hours sleep for multiple days in a row.
Between work projects, being responsible for all pick ups and drop offs at three different locations and kids who are unsettled with DH gone and/or sick, I’m running on about 3-4 broken hours a night.
Anonymous
My last trip I had some fancy dinners at night, except:
— they were at 11:00 on my body clock time (to start with, not really eating for a while after that)
— one drink max b/c with clients and I am a lightweight
— I can’t much eat at night b/c my reflux makes it hard to sleep
— still had to get up early to tend to work matters for other clients on east coat time
This is needed to keep a roof over my head. I enjoy meeting my clients. I wish it under different circumstances b/c I feel like I was taking one for both the work and family teams by undertaking the trip (and then spotty plane wifi on a 5-hour plane trip at quarter end and I work in finance — ugh).
To my non-finance spouse who is 9-5 and only rarely brings work home and doesn’t have to do his regular job during his work travel: he does not get it. He absolutely does not get it.
anon
I agree. I end up doing a lot of solo parenting during the fall. I’m currently solo parenting for a long stretch, and it is really freaking hard. I’m on Day 2 and already trying not to hate my husband. Not only are you doing all the regular stuff alone, but at least one of my kids acts completely different when Dad is away, and not for the better. Oh, and I have a full-time job of my own, so there’s that. I have tried to keep my complaints to myself, but the resentment ends up leaking out in other ways. Bottom line: Solo parenting is hard on my marriage.
I think it’s fair to ask your husband to be constructive when he communicates, but it also sounds like you’re not really listening to him.
I don’t think your example has anything to do with complain in/out, which applies to truly extenuating circumstances.
Anon
It also sounds like her husband is not listening to her about how hard her travel is!
Senior Attorney
My former husband traveled about half the time and I traveled a bit but much less than that. We both agreed that being the at-home spouse was much harder than being the on-the-road spouse!
SC
I think spouses should handle conflict between themselves, and not complain “out” to others about their disagreements. You approach conflict as a team, with honesty, and until you’re on the same page, you don’t vent to family or friends.
For situations where you and your spouse are on the same page, it’s OK and probably healthy to vent out about how hard a situation is. That’s particularly true if the situation is likely harder for one spouse than for the one who needs to vent. I vent to my parents, but I try to keep in mind (a) how what I say will affect their opinion of my husband, and (b) whether my husband would be hurt or surprised by what I’m saying if he overheard it.
Basically, there’s a big difference between “OP is never home and leaves me with the kids all week while she goes out partying, and it’s not fair/too much for me” and “I know OP’s working hard, and this is the right thing for our family, but being home alone with the kids all week is tough, especially when Kid A is sick and Kid B is struggling with homework.” The first feelings should definitely be discussed with OP–and only with OP. The second perspective should be discussed with OP, but it’s probably healthy to direct some of that complaining out.
anonshmanon
I agree with this. Both OP and husband have a point. I lean OP when it’s just hard and you need to vent to get through it. I lean husband when I have legit problems and want a change – you take that to your spouse of course. Maybe there is a miscommunication between OP and husband here – OP is just venting and husband thinks she’s going behind his back with serious issues.
Anonymous
I think “help in, complain out” applies to illness and other crises, not ordinary marital friction.
Anon
I think it’s ok to vent in a very careful way. For example, I have a friend with whom I discuss marital issues, and she does the same. We both understand that it’s a very private conversation, and since we both have issues with our spouses, we both understand that our husbands are lovely, but not perfect, people. I think it’s very helpful. And there are times that I am complaining, and she plays devil’s advocate and vice versa. There are a couple working mom friends who have similar issues regarding husbands, work-life balance, etc. We understand each other’s struggles. I would never complain to my family or any other friends because that would affect a lot of things. I think that it’s healthy to hear and talk through relationship struggles, and hear other people’s issues. A LOT of people (including a lot of commenters here) make their relationships sound better than they are. When you realize that everybody struggles through marriage, esp when you have young children, it gives you a better perspective on what is, and isn’t, acceptable, and what shall pass.
Anonymous
A family friend was the victim of a hit and run. He’s in the hospital but it’s not looking good. He has two little kids and it is just all incredibly said. No one saw anything and the police aren’t optimistic about catching the driver. I am a lawyer and trying to think of how I can help but I really don’t practice in anything related to this. Any advice? I told them to call the insurance company. Are there also lawyers who deal with this if you don’t know who did this? Thanks for any ideas.
Anonymous
This happened to a client — if it was walking in an urban area, there may be cameras (so the police will check for that) and a car with front-end damage (that should be all over the news — perhaps you can help publicize?). And put signs up with the guy’s face near the site — cars travel predictable patterns. Someone may know or suspect something (hey bob where is your jeep?). Maybe even rent a billboard?
If you were out in the country or somewhere very residential, maybe it will be harder. But people have to park their damaged car somewhere or take it to get fixed eventually.
Anon
Around here (midsize city in the southeast) these do tend to get solved, but it can take a while. A car doesn’t hit a human without a fair bit of damage. Even if there wasn’t a witness, there is a car with fresh damage somewhere, or somebody helped the driver dispose of the vehicle. Car vs human damage looks different than car vs deer. There are most likely pieces at the scene or on the victim that will tell color of the vehicle and quite possibly more.
Work Harder PoPo
yes this too. I’m not sure how you hit a human so hard to potentially kill him, and your vehicle wouldn’t be damaged.
CHL
I have nothing substantive to add except that I am so sorry to hear about your friend – what a sad time and what a good friend you are for helping them through the practicalities of a very difficult situation. Hugs!
Look Harder PoPo.
this is surprising to me because for an accident of that magnitude (potential death) I feel like the suspect is usually caught.
lawyering/insurance money etc will obviously depend on his own UM coverage limits if no one is truly found.
but I’m shocked police would say out loud, “we’re not optimistic”. There’s so much that can be done: pulling all available surveillance video around the area, running plates caught at video cameras (ALPR search), canvassing and speaking to anyone and everyone within a square mile. I mean, unless you’re hit in the middle of the desert, I’d be shocked they couldn’t find anyone. if anyone can support the spouse, I would absolutely raise hell about getting more resources into the investigation, esp if a man is going to die.
Anonymous
There are lots of personal injury lawyers, find the best one in your area and give your friend a referral.
Anonymous
Just some anecdata, but I was hit by a car once. I was not terribly injured (a lot of soreness and a possible concussion–I didn’t go to the hospital), as the car hit me coming from a stop. I will say though that I didn’t do much damage to the car and it would not surprise me if the perpetrator has less vehicle damage than you’d expect. My experience with the the driver’s insurance was awful. If I had been in a car, my insurance company would have worked with theirs, but because I was on foot, it was on me. I signed waivers to have my medical records released, but when the insurance company “couldn’t” get them from my doctor’s records office, it fell to me to do it. I never saw a dime from them (and it’s past the statute of limitations now).
Another incident: a friend’s son was killed in a hit and run. He was walking along a highway and the driver was never found.
I’m rather cynical at this point about what can and will be done for victims of hit and run. I would ask around to personal injury lawyers and ask what to expect from the process.
anon
are you in the area? Go to the intersection, take as many pictures as you can. See if there are any business nearby where there may have been witnesses. Try to find any nearby cameras (even a few blocks away might have caught the car).
I’m so sorry about your friend.
Coach Laura
Or you could offer to help handle the back and forth with the insurance company, filing paperwork, helping deal with medical bills. I’d imagine the family is pretty overwhelmed. You wouldn’t need experience in that practice area (or any law license) to be helpful in that way.
anon
Friday confession:
I have had several gardening dreams about a colleague, who is one of the best-looking guys I’ve met in real life. But he’s, um, one of my direct reports, which makes me feel so, so gross. I’m keeping my distance from the dude today, that’s for sure.
Anonymous
Been there. Trying countering it with visuals of him engaging in Homer Simpson type behaviors.
Ellen
Yay! Fruegel Friday’s! I love Fruegel Fridays and this Ann Taylor Blouse! I think I can wear it DESPITE the V-neck, as it does not go down to far, so Frank wont really be able to peer in and find much!
As for the OP, Stay away. As my dad warned me when I became a manager of a younger lawyer, NEVER sample any in-house Keilbasa. It is very difficult to seperate work from pleasure, and the guy will always have a #METOO claim if you do NOT treat him right afterward’s. In my case, the guy was not attractive anyway, and he had a big libido, but satisfied it by having s-x with my secretary, Lynn, right on the conference room table. FOOEY on that b/c we all put our food on that same table when we watch TV in there!
I think we can self-garden, if we have to, but NEVER let a subordinate do any tending of our garden, or vise versa. You can water your own garden, but leave his *&%$ out of the picture. DOUBEL FOOEY!
Anon
Is this an unofficial holiday of some kind? No less than half my office is either out or working from home. Is it just because Halloween is coming up?
Gonna be a long day…
Gail the Goldfish
Same here. No idea why, except we are having cold, rainy miserable weather.
Anonymous
The official beginning of flu season?
Pompom
I 100 percent almost called in just to languish in bed with a book and puppies, just to avoid the fact that it is downpouring and cold and dark where I am.
But no, here I am. Boo.
Worry about yourself
I noticed this yesterday, hardly anyone was in the office which is normal for a Friday, but was odd for a Thursday. And I can’t complain about it, I was out sick on Wednesday (not a cold or flu, just unusually debilitating cramps), and today I’m WFH because a friend of mine is getting married at 5 this evening.
But I think the World Series may be the culprit, I know it’s caused a lot of sleep deprivation in Boston (go Sox!) but I’m sure plenty of people across the country are watching even if their team isn’t playing. That, and the beginning of cold season, is gonna make a lot of people wanna take sick days and work from home.
Anonymous
I think it’s the World Series. My 5:45 a.m. workout class was unusually empty this morning and we were all trying to guess why.
FormerlyPhilly
Except there wasn’t a World Series game on last night…
Anonymous
The subway this morning was pretty empty, too. No idea why.
Anon
TBH I went golfing yesterday mid-afternoon, in the name of mental health/enjoying the outdoors and actual sun while I could. I wouldn’t hesitate to do it again today, if rain wasn’t in the forecast. I mostly work at home anyway, had a light client load and got what I needed to done in the morning. Plus I’ll more than make up for it over the long, cold winter when I’m stuck inside.
Former Retail
School is closed here. I would be home with my kids if I didn’t have a 3:00 meeting. Ugh.
Anon
Ha, maybe Mercury is in retrograde or something? It’s definitely cold and dark and rainy where I am and very conducive to staying at home.
Anon
No, but Venus is, so if you’ve been on a relationship roller coaster ride lately, there’s that. Today is apparently Relationship Clarity Day?
anon a mouse
DC schools are on fall break.
I want a fall break!
Anon
In line with some of the recent posts about the transgender activism movement, I want to ask about something that’s been bothering me but that is off-limits for discussion in my circles. Please skip if you’re not interested and let’s all keep it respectful.
Even some of the (few) skeptical people I know will say things like “I don’t care which bathroom people use,” but my issue is that I don’t know how you tell when a transwoman is using the women’s bathroom. I think there’s this misconception that every transwoman has had surgery, is virtually indistinguishable from a woman, etc, but the reality is that many (most?) either can’t pass or don’t try to. My area of concern then becomes this – how do you know that a biologically male person is a transwoman versus a drag queen versus a cross-dresser versus a predator? In the past, if you walked into the women’s bathroom and saw a six-foot tall bearded male wearing stereotypically female clothing, you would receive the brain signal that “a male is in here. This area isn’t meant for males. This male is crossing a boundary” and you would leave and their mere presence would be enough to get them kicked out. Now what do you do? Even if your senses tell you something is wrong, you can’t leave or complain to management unless a crime has actually been committed because it’s the ultimate horrible sin to question a trans person in the bathroom. I’m asking here – how do you handle this and ensure that women have a means to speak up against predators in the bathroom/locker room when you can’t use biological sex, appearance, or any other verifiable indicator to tell whether someone is trans? Are women supposed to ignore their gut if something just doesn’t look right?
This is not hypothetical either. A recent investigation in the United Kingdom found that among crimes committed in bathrooms, the vast majority were in gender neutral bathrooms (where you would run into the above problem). Then you have major problems with voyeurism in bathrooms in places like South Korea and several lawsuits regarding inappropriate behavior by male-born trans students in the US. towards girls in school bathrooms. I loath to think of ignoring the The Gift of Fear in those situations, but I don’t see a way around it and I am genuinely curious what others propose.
For the record, I support making men’s bathrooms gender neutral so all can use them, but the women’s room should stay as is.
Anonymous
I would never voice this IRL — I know a woman here (child was male in K but went female in first grade) who’d have my head on a pike in a hot minute.
BUT I will say that I have this issue with regular boys in the changing room at the pool (where there aren’t private stalls). [Change the gender: men don’t bring daughters into the men’s changing room, like ever, at least that I’ve seen.] When they are babies, I get it. But once they can read . . . At any rate, I have one daughter going through puberty and doesn’t want anyone seeing her change (much less boys (not so much re gym class with the classmate who transitioned), but giggling boys at the pool).
Anonymous
Yes! Use the family changing room or restroom if you are bringing in opposite-gender children over preschool age. That’s what it’s for. Stop bringing your school-aged boy into the women’s locker room or restroom. It is just plain rude and it doesn’t teach healthy boundaries to your kid either. [Not making any statement about trans people, just the eight-year-old boys who are in the ladies’ room because their mothers are apparently too clingy to send them to the men’s room.]
Anon
“the eight-year-old boys who are in the ladies’ room because their mothers are apparently too clingy to send them to the men’s room”
I’m a single mother of a boy. So I’m supposed to let an 7 year old boy go into the men’s room by himself at, say, Yankee Stadium? Risk his safety so YOU don’t have to stand next to him while you wash your hands?
Anonymous
For real. We are all fine with any man who says he is “trans”, no matter what, being in any women’s bathroom at any time, but 7 year old boys should be alone in men’s rooms. Sorry. No f-ing way. I was abused as a child and NEVER will my son be put in a position to have that happen to him, esp. in a world where if I said “Oh, he’s trans” it would be 100% a-ok.
Anonymous
As the mom of a 7 year old who looks like a 10 year old: ain’t no F’ing way I’m sending my kid to the men’s room by himself in a restaurant, museum or waterpark.
It’s criminal there aren’t more family restrooms.
Anonymous
Yankee Stadium is one thing, but restaurant and museum restrooms generally only have one entrance/exit. You just need to stand right outside until the kid comes out. My husband solo parents when I travel, and he was not comfortable taking our daughter into the men’s room, so as soon as she was physically capable of using the potty by herself he’d send her in alone and wait right outside. It is perfectly safe–no one can kidnap your child if there’s no way they can get past you. I am so freaking tired of having school-aged boys peer under or around stall doors, especially when the person they are peeping at is my 11-year-old daughter.
An On
It’s not kidnapping I’m worried about, it’s abuse (an adult saying “do you need help with your pants?” or simply forcing himself into the stall with my kid)
Anonymous
If someone makes you uncomfortable somewhere – whether or not it’s a bathroom, whether or not that person is male, female, whatever – just leave. I don’t know where you get the idea that the existence of trans people in the world means you have to stay in places where you don’t feel comfortable. If your discomfort is based on actual threatening behavior of the person then find someone in charge to report it to. If it’s just based on a vague sense of threat (“that woman is tall, is she actually a man?”) then just leave and find some other place to pee.
Anon
I would respond at length, but he says pretty much what I’m thinking (more succinctly and eloquently).
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ov-ocQpQtrw
BabyAssociate
I think creeps are going to be creeps regardless of whether transwomen are allowed to use the women’s bathroom.
Yes all Men
yes this. OP as I was reading your post, the thought that ran through my head is that the majority of your fear is borne out in “creeps” doing creep things in bathrooms right? would those creeps not generally be hetero cis men?
“”a drag queen versus a cross-dresser versus a predator? In the past, if you walked into the women’s bathroom and saw a six-foot tall bearded male wearing stereotypically female clothing, you would receive the brain signal that “a male is in here. This area isn’t meant for males. This male is crossing a boundary” and you would leave and their mere presence would be enough to get them kicked out.””
because be honest with yourself. the problem is not trans people wanting to live out their truth. transWomen don’t want to transition so they can peep other women in bathrooms.
You’re talking about hetero cis men, taking advantage of the trans struggle, to do creep things in bathrooms.
Anon
Yes, but you’re kind of making her point. When you can’t differentiate between a trans woman and a cis man trying to be a creep in a bathroom, it’s completely valid to be fearful of both. Let’s not pretend that all trans women try to or want to present completely feminine, or that there aren’t genderqueer people who will claim being a woman one day, be a man the next day, and some days wear a full face of makeup and skirt with a perfectly trimmed full beard. The world is a changing place and if someone can’t properly identify a threat, then it makes sense to take precautions to avoid those threats. To me that means gender neutral single stall bathrooms along with women’s restrooms and men’s restrooms, i.e. protecting women from creeps who take advantage of trans protection laws and protecting trans people who may not present well enough to be welcomed into the rest room of their choice and from harassment in a single gender rest room.
I’m very liberal but protection of self comes first. The people that claim it’s no big deal are incredibly patronizing to the safety of women – I’m happy that in your little world everyone is safe, but in real life terrible people take advantage to do terrible things and I’m perfectly happy segregating bathrooms to prevent that.
anon
“When you can’t differentiate between a trans woman and a cis man trying to be a creep in a bathroom, it’s completely valid to be fearful of both.”
This just doesn’t even make sense to me. You appear to think that trans women are going to present like they’re just cross dressing. Or do you mean trans man? I don’t think you even know what you mean. How do you even make it through your day in public not knowing whether you’re around cis men or not???
Anon
You’re exaggerating, I clearly made my point about people being genderqueer and not presenting all the way as one gender or another – not all transwomen present the same way or can or want to look like a natural born woman. I fully understand the spectrum of gender and still mean what I said.
You’re being deliberately obtuse about bringing the point out of the safe space of the bathroom into public open areas, which is not the same thing, neither I nor anyone else mentioned caring about someone’s presentation out of a safe space. If your main way to address an argument is to move the ball and redirect, you’re very poor at it. There are too many lawyers on this board to fall for such trifle.
anon
I wonder if you’re talking to me? Because your language in discussing this topic has been really muddled throughout this entire conversation. I’m telling you that I don’t understand what you’re trying to say, not moving the argument anywhere. Try harder.
Also, lol at your last sentence in light of your OP claiming to want to discuss in a polite manner.
Anon
I agree with Anon at 10:46. She’s saying if a creep enters the women’s bathroom, we basically can’t do anything about it now. The creep may be a full-fledged dude and we must now assume he’s trans in some fashion and has the right to be here. That’s what the OP is saying too. And it’s not cool, and I agree that women still need women’s bathrooms. Where – yes, you have to look like a woman to enter.
Anonymous
I don’t care if cismen use my bathroom. It has stalls.
Same
I share a bathroom at home with a man. It’s fine.
Anonymous
OMG so not fine in my house. The drips and the smells . . .
Anonymous
I get really tired of pee on the seats or the seats being left up in gender neutral stalls! I feel like it should be based on what body part you have.
K
Women get pee on the seats too…
AIMS
Um, I think women pee on seats in public restrooms a lot more than men do. It’s one of life’s enduring mysteries to me.
Anonymous
I think it’s women hovering vs sitting. I know women who’d never sit on a seat except in their own house; everywhere else they hover.
mascot
Right? My husband gets so squeamish about having to us public restrooms some times- uh, at least you can comfortably stand? He has no idea the horrors I’ve seen.
Anonymous
There women who are taught to hover over clean toilet seats and not clean up. For real. Like even first thing in the morning ina just cleaned office or school. Their booties are much more precious than ours and we all have to deal with their mess or do the same.
Anonymous
Yeah I guess I honestly don’t see what the big deal about mixed gender bathrooms with stalls is? It’s not like you’re getting naked in front of anyone.
Anonymous
I really don’t want an audience when I deal with my period. But if I have a shared bathroom, I don’t want the guys I work with clued in that that. Too many OTR remarks tossed about over my life so far.
anon
………how does anyone who is not in the stall with you know what you’re doing?
IDK, gender neutral bathrooms at work seems a little weird, but that’s just because you know these people and have personal relationships with them. I’d just rather have my trans woman colleague feel like she could use the woman’s bathroom.
Also, team ceiling to floor stalls!
Anonymous
To anon @ 11:37am, there is the crinkling of paper/plastic associated with pads, tampons, etc. or the clink of the metal on one of those little trash bins. It’s not like you intentionally listen for it, but I can definitely tell if the woman in the stall next to me is swapping out a feminine care product. Let’s not be obtuse about it.
anon
Really not trying to be obtuse. Don’t be rude. I work in an office with many women in a bathroom with four stalls and quite frankly feel like I never hear when anyone is dealing with their period.
An On
+1 to say I have been on both sides of this, and it is obvious when someone is on their period: punch a button on dispenser, walk into stall trying to imperfectly conceal it in hand, crinkling of paper and metallic slam on trash can. I can hear every single sound and am sure I’m heard as well.
Anonymous
I am team “EVERYONE should have stalls with walls that reach all the way up to the ceiling and down to the floor to hide our collective shame.” Way more civilized, and sidesteps anything gender-related entirely. But I am a progressive prude…
Anonymous
This would amazing!
PolyD
Hey, I like that – progressive prude. I think I am the same way.
I don’t care what your genitals are, I just don’t want to see them or hear about them.
Anon
They do this in Germany!
Anon
They do this everywhere but the US. Japan also has music buttons to mask whatever sounds your business is making. We’re just… in the dark ages.
AIMS
Respectfully, I don’t think this is a real problem that you have to worry about. Have you ever walked into the bathroom and saw ” a six-foot tall bearded male wearing stereotypically female clothing”?? Your statement that “most can’t pass or don’t try to” is also really loaded with judgment. The former is subjective and the latter is unsupported/completely speculative. To the extent that you are suggesting that you *know* when someone is “trying to pass” that has absolutely no bearing on their presenting a danger. Your UK statistic is also not indicative of anything; gender neutral bathrooms mean that men and women are using them and all the issues attendant to crimes committed by men (and women) anywhere else can crop up. It has nothing to do with transgender anything. Frankly, I am cautious any time I use the bathroom in a random empty-ish place and you should be too. Whether a trans person can use it has nothing to do with it. It’s not like a potential rapist is deterred by a “just for women” sign. Opportunity is opportunity. I don’t get why you think that someone who identifies as trans using the women’s bathroom means that they will also assault biological women there. The only safety issue I see is to the trans women from being forced to use the men’s room. I am going to take you at your word that you’re genuinely trying to think this stuff so please examine all the assumptions you’re making here.
Anonymous
The only safety issue I see is to the trans women from being forced to use the men’s room.
This. This is by far the largest safety issue.
K
+1
Anon
But how can you tell a male is trans? Seriously, how?
The one long-term study available shows that MTF trans people retain male criminality patterns. That is to say, not all transwomen are criminals, but they commit crimes at the same rates as other males. You are not at less risk (or more) from transwomen, but the same risk is still worth discussing.
Anonymous
What crimes are you worried about? Rape? Theft? Assault? Let’s assume that this is even true. Do you think that someone going to pee is going to be so overcome with criminal urges when you come in that they will commit a crime against you? Do you think someone looking to commit a crime in a bathroom is going to abstain if it’s only for women? What about really butch lesbians? Are you concerned about them, too? Or – even accepting your study at face value, which I am doing for the sake of argument – do you think that maybe trans people might have greater hardships in life that then render them more likely to have to resort to certain crimes like theft, etc., in order to survive?
Anonymous
+100
When people bring up these “issues” like OP has, it’s just a nicer way of being a bigot.
Anon
Keep talking like that to voters and you’ll hand 2020 to Trump. Legitimate questions about women’s safety do not equal bigotry and you know it.
Anonymous
They are not legitimate questions about women’s safety – unless you are referring to the lack of safety for transwomen who are forced to use men’s bathrooms.
They are red herrings to avoid dealing with real s.a. issues. Can’t have those cis straight white men being held accountable for their actions when there are trans bogeywomen to be created.
anon
I don’t understand this, can you explain it to me?
Why is voting for trump the obvious response to being called a bigot? Why do people vote for trump in response to having to hear about trans issues?
I really truly want an answer.
Anon
I am not a Trump voter myself so I can’t say for sure, but people don’t respond well to being called bigots when they express concern about policy changes that have implications for a protected class (women). I imagine they feel welcomed by politicians and voters who listen to and validate their concerns.
anon
So you’re telling me that people who are concerned about policy changes that have implications for a protected class (women) vote for Trump?
That doesn’t make sense.
It also doesn’t make sense to me… I’m being called a bigot, I don’t like it, so therefore I’m going to vote for someone I otherwise wouldn’t?
I am trying to get at the very specific question of WHY people keep claiming that trump was elected because libruls were meanies. The poster above said “keep talking like that and you’ll hand trump the 2020 election.” What is the logical connection?
Anon
Ok I’m not OP but I have experienced a situation at the gym (Berkeley YMCA) in the women’s locker room, which is a very n*ked place in general, when I walked out of the shower with just their tiny towel held in front of my bits and there was a bio male standing naked right there waiting for the shower.
Yes, I was completely uncomfortable. No, I don’t know what the right thing to do is. Certainly not complain about it because this is Berkeley. But it could have been a trans woman, or it could be a creeper using the progressive policies to do his creeping.
Whatever the case, my gift of fear kicked in.
What I actually did is stop going to the Y, but that seems kind of unfair to me, no?
I don’t have any answers but these things are not as black and white as the you’re-not-woke-enough crowd would have us believe.
Anon
Tell me more about this. Were you in the women’s locker room, or are they not at all segregated by gender?
Anon
The women’s locker room.
Anonymous
I have been to the Berkeley YMCA. Just walking in the front door of that place triggers the gift of fear for all sorts of reasons.
Anonymous
I think trans issues are taking up a lot of public discussion space right now compared to issues such as poverty. But I don’t agree with concerns about bathrooms.
“but the reality is that many (most?) either can’t pass or don’t try to.” Do you have a source for this or is it just your personal observation? How would you know if someone is transgender if they are passing in public? You’re not in the stall with them.
I am empathetic to women at the beginning of their transition journey. I can’t imagine how self-conscious they must feel knowing that they don’t ‘pass’ yet.
The concern about transgender individuals is incredibly overwrought and not factually based. I’m much more worried about straight men at frat houses when my kid goes to college. Let’s ban them first. In short, I’m worried about the Brent Kavanaughs, not the Caitlyn Jenners.
Anonymous
The fraternity hate is based on gross stereotypes.
At most schools I’m aware of, the greek GPA and graduation rate is better than the overall rate. Men are at risk of many bad behaviors without good peer relationships, not just when they are young and alone at school but throughout their lives.
Many men spend their whole lives not being involved in a single community organization, ever, and those who are greek in undergrad are more likely to participate in other organizations as grownups.
But go ahead, ban fraternities.
Anonymous
I don’t think it’s a stereotype. Most of the adult men I know who never grew up and still do idiotic things even though they should know better are former frat boys.
Dahlia
Loads of the talented, smart, respectful surgeons I work with at a world-class academic medical center were in fraternities. My husband was in a fraternity.
Just because you happen to know a bunch of idiots doesn’t mean that behavior is attributable to their frats.
Anonymous
I’m sorry, but what does “graduating” or “participating in organizations” have to do with whether men assault women? Of course they graduate if there are no serious repercussions for how they treat women!
emeralds
Have you been to a frat party?
anonshmanon
better GPA and graduation rate could also correlate with coming from a better-off background with more family support. In that case, frat membership would be easily explained as an additional symptom, not a cause.
Similarly, the bathroom statistics that OP cited (I’ve googled, I can’t find the actual data anywhere) could have many factors that we don’t know about. The news articles say two thirds of reported assaults in public swimming pools were committed in gender-neutral changing rooms. And it points out that less than half of swimming pools have gender-neutral bathrooms, so they are more dangerous. That’s all the data I can find. On first glance, this seems clear.
But there are lots of other factors that should be discussed before final assessment: gender-neutral bathrooms are a newish thing that helps pools to cut maintenance cost – could be that the larger facilities with much more traffic have those, while older pools have separate changing rooms that way less people happen to use. Transgender people might frequent facilities with gender neutral rooms, for obvious reasons, and they are assaulted at a much higher rate than cisgender people. Everywhere I’ve been, modern changing rooms means single stalls for changing, as opposed to large communal changing rooms ala gym class. More assaults might happen out of view in a stall, than in front of everyone.
All of these are speculation, but I think it’s possible that all things considered, gender neutral bathrooms are not inherently more dangerous than male/female ones.
Anonymous
Just because someone doesn’t pass well doesn’t mean they’re dangerous, right? If you see a bearded man in women’s clothing isn’t that a pretty clear sign that an effort is being made, but you just hate their style/makeup skills?
Anonymous
Idk, I’m a biologically female female married to a biologically male man. However, thanks to genetics, I have some male-ish features (in 6’0, have large hands, a flat chest, and big feet). I have a boo-tay that I can’t imagine being natural to a man but I do often feel like I could be mistaken for someone toward the middle of the gender spectrum vs female.
I have 3 young girls.
I DGAF who uses what bathroom, oh my god. I believe creepy things happen in bathrooms. So do plane crashes. I will get on them. Even the tiny puddle jumpers.
Public bathrooms are gross. My oldest is 6 and when she’s with DH, he sends her into the women’s room alone and waits outside. He tries to find out in advance if she’ll be a long or short while and on occasion has had to open the door and say “everything OK honey?” or ask a grandmotherly type if there’s a little girl in there that looks like she needs help. Once or twice he’s just knocked loudly and announced his presence and gone in to help her.
Yankee stadium is family restrooms all the way, first and foremost because my daughter will inevitably go out the wrong door and be lost for hours.
I would be 100% behind single user bathrooms and/or all gender bathrooms with floor-to-ceiling stalls.
Anonymous
FFS, I think we have one transphobic troll and enough is enough.
Anonymous
IDK if it is a troll, but I’m in NC where politicians burned through a lot of drama and goodwill over bathroom bills and ignored very real other issues important to Democrats: housing, inequality of opportunity, education, infrastructure. It was all bike lanes and trans-bathroom-fights. Like all of the other problems are fixed.
anon
Maybe if the republican administration didn’t respond to a simple county ordinance like they did, so much good will wouldn’t have had to be expended.
It’s intellectually dishonest to pretend that dems turned NC’s ‘bathroom bill’ into a national issue for funsies.
Anonymous
My favorite part of that whole drama was when I read that the politician and his wife were being completely shunned socially, even in the country club scene; uninvited to parties, etc. People HATE them in NC.
Anonymous
I think that Jennifer Roberts rightfully lost her re-election bid though. She ignored so much of what CLT needed to work on and burned all of her political capital on this.
Kat, are you seeing this?
Seriously, the “conservative” (aka racist/homophobic) trolls have been out of control lately. I spend most of my time on other communities now that have better commenting systems.
Anonymous
I disagree with them too, but I know they aren’t trolling. They are sincere.
Anon
I’m the OP. I am neither a conservative nor homophobic. I am a gender-critical progressive and judging by the discussions on this site in the last few weeks, I am not alone.
anon for this
Agreed. I am one of the people who has posted about this recently. I have literally never voted for a Republican in my life and I was advocating for equal rights for LGBT people at a time when it was not only unpopular, but literally dangerous to do so. As in, which I first marched for gay rights, homos*xuality was illegal in my state, gay bars were being raided, and we faced abuse from bystanders while the police turned a blind eye. So I’ve been in these trenched.
But I’m also a feminist and I’m concerned about what feels like an increasing push to silence women who have questions about the ramifications of some aspects of trans equality mean for women. I am also very bothered by the idea that we are supposed to act like the experience of a transwoman who transitioned after many years of living as a man and enjoying male privilege is the same as the experience of a woman who has lived as a woman her entire life.
I’m not arguing that ciswomen have it harder, but that they have it *differently* – and yet even that is treated as bigotry in many circles where I formerly felt welcome. I’m never going to end up a Trump voter over this because I couldn’t opposed Trump more violently if I tried, but I’m deeply alienated by it.
Anna
+ 100000000
anon for this
I should clarify, as the anon for this above, that I actually am fine with trans people using bathrooms that correspond to their gender presentation rather than their biological s*x. I think the risk a predator relies on that to victimize women is low (in part because predators are just gonna come in and…predate). And I think the risk of violence to trans people that have to use the bathroom of their biological s*x is significant. (And I think it’s awful and humiliating for them.) So I part ways with the OP on this specific example, although it sounds like we have common concerns in other areas.
Anon
+1 to anon for this
I am also not a tr0ll, I’m a liberal, and a regular poster here, but I think there are women’s issues that don’t include trans issues, and I don’t know why it’s apparently against the law to say so these days.
(PS obviously there are also trans issues that are separate from women’s issues, but no one seems to think that is not ok)
Anonymama
It’s kind of dramatic to say something is “against the law” to say, just because when you say it people disagree and argue with you. No one’s being censored or banned or ticketed or jailed, they’re just arguing with you on the internet.
Anon
What are those other communities? I have such a hard time finding ones that do not hate women.
Anonymous
What other communities?
Anonymous
I see where you’re coming from. I agree with the poster who says you leave if anyone is making you uncomfortable, regardless of gender.
Here’s what I don’t get about the bathroom hysteria: if you force the born female but living as a man person into the bathroom of their birth-assigned gender you’re sharing a bathroom with a very masculine looking person. Isn’t that at least as jarring as sharing it with a man who now lives as female? Doesn’t it present the same “issues” of criminals impersonating transgender folks to do bad stuff? It seems to me that the only reasonable solution for folks who honestly see this as a problem, is that trans folks shouldn’t exist, which is obviously wrong. Please tell me I’m missing something.
Anonymous
Yes, what about trans men?
Green Hat
Exactly! I have a transman friend who I didn’t know was trans for the first couple months after I met him (when we were just acquaintances). He has a full beard and is very muscular. How would you feel if he walked into your bathroom?
Like others have said, if someone is being creepy towards you in the bathroom, man or woman or neither, leave. If someone is not being creepy, why do you care what they look like?
Anonymous
I’m a prosecutor who deals with sex crimes regularly. Sexual assaults against women in public restrooms are a real thing. And they are perpetrated, almost entirely, by hetero cis men who are undeterred by a “women” sign on the door. I’ve never – in my professional practice, office gossip, or news media – seen a case where someone tried to dress up as a woman or present themselves as transgender in order to gain admittance to a women only bathroom. They just walk in. Not saying it’s impossible, because crazy be crazy sometimes, but there are actual real problems to worry about. Like men dressed as men sexually assaulting women in women’s bathrooms.
Anon
Yes, we all agree that men commit crimes, including in bathrooms, and won’t be deterred by a sign on the door. The question at issue is how do you confront them now? If you see a man in the bathroom who ignored the sign on the door and is lingering weirdly around the sinks, you now have to assume he is trans and has the right to be there.
Seriously, can anyone give a straight answer to how to address this?
Anonymous
I guess all you can do is leave quietly; you can’t really complain “man in the women’s room” or “I am afraid.”
We had a men in our women’s room who was a visitor who had made a mistake — we noticed the backwards feet in the stall and ran out silently so we didn’t embarrass him further.
People also make honest mistakes.
BabyAssociate
I think you’ve gotten plenty of straight answers here and they’re just not the answers you want. If you are in a situation where you feel physically unsafe, speak up or leave. Whether someone may or may not be trans does not seem relevant.
Amon
Ok, so all the answers are “you have to leave,” or in the other case someone posted above, quit the Berkeley YMCA. How is that fair to women? What bathroom are they supposed to use?
anon
How long are you planning on being in the bathroom?
A lot of people are saying “just leave” because in your OP, you said this: ‘Now what do you do? Even if your senses tell you something is wrong, you can’t leave or complain to management ….”
YOU CAN LEAVE.
Anon
That’s absurd, no you don’t. You will know full well when she is a trans women, as opposed to a man lying in wait. Stop making up problems that don’t exist, and using them to attack trans people.
Anonymous
+1,000
Anonymous
Why would you confront someone who makes you uncomfortable? If you’re concerned that they are a s.a. risk – leave and tell security. If they are there to s.a. you, they are not going to leave because you asked them to.
Anon
You use your common sense to evaluate the situation, and if you truly believe someone is a threat, then you report them. If you’re wrong, you’re wrong, and you deal with the consequences/blowback of that. What’s the worst that can happen? You end up being the subject of a viral post entitled “Woman Reports Trans-Woman Using Restroom”? So what. If you otherwise behave as a non-bigoted person in the rest of your life and you can articulate your reasons why this person appeared threatening to you then this shouldn’t be a real problem.
For me personally, if I really believed a predator was hanging out in the women’s bathroom, I would report them, and not give a sh*t what anyone thought about my doing so. But I know – and anyone who knows me knows – that I’m not a bigot. For people who don’t know me, I don’t really care what they think about me.
Anonymous
I think you’ll have adjust your thinking and evaluate whether this person is a threat. Just like you’d do in a dark alley or an elevator or any other public place where you may feel
vulnerable. How often have you called the police on folks in those situations?
anon
Dude, come on. Your “solution” will not solve your problem!! If you require everyone to use the bathroom that matches their birth certificate (or however you want to phrase it), then you’re requiring trans men—who may present like 6 foot men!—to use the bathroom with women. Is that the outcome you want? No. It puts you in the same position of not knowing whether someone is a creepy cis male perv or a trans man.
It’s really sad that you are buying into the right’s fear mongering lie that some cis male perv is going to go into a restroom, molest someone, and then be like “oh you can’t stop me, I’m trans.” Or peep over a stall door and say “you can’t stop me, I’m trans.” Or loiter like a weirdo just waiting for the opportunity to hurt someone. If you see someone who is actually displaying “weird” behavior like “lingering around sinks” (good grief) then how about you leave? If you’re really concerned, talk to management and express your concern about the behavior. Let management deal with the issue. You respond in the same way that you’d respond to any other type of suspicious behavior. Your ability to use reason and critical thinking doesn’t go out the door just because this law is passed.
Anon
You pay attention to behavior, not appearance.
If someone comes into the restroom, heads to a stall, does their business, heads to the sink, washes hands, checks their hair and/or clothing and/or makeup, and then heads for the door? Not creepy.
If someone is just kind of loitering about, lingering, watching people, etc., with no sense of purpose? Creepy.
Doesn’t matter if they look like a man or a woman. Doesn’t matter which parts they have. I am biologically female, identify as female, and have left more than one public restroom bc of creepy behavior (by people who appeares to be the same).
Anonymous
Not everyone loitering in the restroom is a creep. Some of us are just moms waiting for our pokey children.
Anonymous
I wait for my kids all.the.time but somehow I know I’m not giving up a creepy/loitering vibe. And I’ve seen attendants waiting for people in handicapped stalls (if not in there helping).
People shooting up (or doing . . . something that seemed off) — that frightens me.
Anonymous
You have a lot of really weird assumptions (if someone is passing, how would you know?). I hate to move the discussion away from transphobia, since that should be enough, but are you aware that many people don’t fall neatly into either a “male” or “female” box whatever their identity? I’ve heard of women with PCOS being harassed for using the “ladies room” because they have stubble (no, medication doesn’t make the beard go away, and insurance does not cover permanent removal, so all many women can do is shave). You should be ashamed that you would be thinking negative thoughts about a trans woman or about anyone else who doesn’t “present” according to your prescribed gender norms.
Candidate
I’ve been canvassing and phone banking for Yes on 3 in Massachusetts this cycle, I’m going to spit out some of our talking points and link you to the website: https://www.freedommassachusetts.org/law/
First, since the law went into place 2 years ago, there has been no increase in public safety incidents. Second, both law enforcement groups and women’s groups, including the National Organization for Women, Boston Area Rape Crisis Center, the Women’s Bar Association of Massachusetts, and the YWCA all support a Yes on 3 vote (to keep existing protections for transgender people).
Third, I have a lot of trans* friends. Not a single one of them is interested in bothering you, and if you were in a bathroom with them, it would be obvious they are just there to pee, like you. Creeper behavior is the big red flag, not someone’s appearance or identity, and it remains illegal to harass someone in a bathroom. Additionally, trans* people are at a much higher risk of being harassed (and/or murdered) than cis women like me. Especially trans women of color. Up to half of trans* teenagers (transmasculine people especially) have already attempted suicide at least one. This community faces higher rates of discrimination and marginalization than cis women, is at a higher risk for violence, and a higher risk for self-harm.
If all I have to do to support this community is let them pee in peace, or go out to a restaurant, or check into a hotel room, then I will gladly welcome them into my space.
And if you live in Massachusetts, please remember a YES vote on question 3 KEEPS existing non-discrimination laws in place. Vote YES to support the trans* community.
Anon
What’s your source for trans people being at higher risk for murder? The only study I have ever seen suggesting that was for a very specific population of transwomen in prostitution and wasn’t actually generalizable to the larger population (although the news does it anyway).
Anonymous
Our library lost a case to keep disruptive mentally-ill homeless people from congregating there and scaring away other patrons. They were very disruptive — yelling, threatening people, going into bathrooms, etc. The needles were scary. They reeked of urine. [It was OK when it was merely homeless non-disruptive people to come inside where it was warm and dry. Those folks were driven away by some disruptive people, who then drove everyone away.]
Once, after the case, it was legal for them to be there, it was like the Hamsterdam season of The Wire. No one policed anything, so I stopped going to that library. I felt unsafe and I take public transit in Newark (and have for decades).
I wonder if this is what people fear with creepy men in the women’s room — if it is OK for a trans person to be in there, then no one will have the stomach to police the creepy men b/c they have a right to be there now b/c they are men (b/c what is creepy is too subjective to police). No one wants to be on the 11:00 news / twitter flame war / etc.
Anon
You’ve just described bathrooms at my school in Russia. There, you pretty much never went to pee unless you were about to burst – once a day at most. It was K-12 school with thousands of kids and 6 year olds would use the same bathroom as 16 year olds, who were mostly juvenile delinquents in the making (because, Russia) and used the bathroom as their personal dealing/smoking/talk shit/make out pad, and would spend hours there cutting class. The teachers must have had a separate bathroom as I’ve never seen a teacher there. It was like entering another dimension – you never knew what might happen to you in the bathroom that day. I’ve been shoved into the toilet, covered in feces, almost got pushed out the third floor window, had my pants forcefully removed etc. Terrifying. But this is only something that happens in a 100% dysfunctional unsupervised environment where no one even pretends to give a damn and where teenage sense of humor prevails. Hopefully we’re better than this?
Anon Today
Thank you for this.
AnonZ
This is not directly relevant as my friend in this story is gay, not trans – but this is an experience that made it so clear to me what people face with regards to bathrooms.
I was at Target (in our large, liberal city) with my friend, who is a fairly flamboyant gay man. Suddenly he realized he urgently had to use the bathroom. He was genuinely very anxious about having to use a public men’s room. He told me if he was in there for more than two minutes, I should go get store security and ask them to check the restroom. He took a deep breath and ran in, looking very nervous, and then came out quickly thereafter. We bought hand sanitizer from a checkout line – he didn’t wash his hands because “oh come on, that’s when they get you!”
After we left, he told me that he hadn’t used a public restroom in close to a decade because he’d had so many bad experiences, from rude comments, to getting pushed/shoved, to actually getting severely beaten once.
If someone wants to be a creep, they will be a creep regardless of whether or not they can go in a certain bathroom. But we should make certain that people have a safe place to accommodate basic bodily functions without fear of bodily harm.
Anonymous
To back to another recent discussion, maybe if we imprisoned predators for lives for the safety of the vulnerable, we wouldn’t have to hand wring as much about how to keep ourselves safe from a population full of offenders walking free? Predators who are probably delighted that people are busy focused on innocent people who “look different” rather than on people who pose real threats?
Anonymous
Agreed. I genuinely do not understand why child molesters are ever released.
Moths
What’s your favorite products and strategies for preventing moth holes in clothes? Every year, it seems I lose a favorite sweater to moths.
MagicUnicorn
Keeping the clothing clean and not putting it away dirty with sweat or food on the fibers. Avoiding scented laundry products. Storing sweaters in plastic bins with lids. Keeping cedar sachets in the closet. Keeping moths out. Airing out and rifling through the closet on the regular, not leaving clothing and any insidious moths undisturbed for weeks on end.
Anonymous
Colibri moth repellent in the closets. Dry cleaning the sweaters periodically. And cleaning out and Swiffering a drawer, closet shelf, or closet section every weekend. I can’t do more than that.
NOLA
I bought these zippable fabric storage containers with a cedar panel to store my cashmere and wool sweaters. Seems to be working if I remember to put them in it.
NOLA
https://www.storables.com/cedar-lined-sweater-bags-set-of-2.html
Anonymous
I just bought this: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000OR101M/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s04?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Hope it works!
emeralds
Just wanted to give a shout out to all my sisters who are wearing sensible shoes, commuting with backpacks, and not bothering to style our hair this morning. I see you, I respect you, and I appreciate you.
Also shout-out to Costco’s DKNY pull-on pants, if anyone is looking for a new favorite pair of leggings masquerading as workwear. They’re $10 (!), thick fabric, amazingly comfortable, extremely flattering on both my straight up and down frame and that of a curvier friend, and come in three colors. I’m trying to convince myself that buying two pairs of the black ones would be extra, because I cannot actually wear them every single day.
Anon
I was just thinking about that yesterday when literally 100% of the women on my commute were wearing backpacks! It was glorious. I may be in the Bay Area, but still.
Anonymous
I literally just switched to a backpack after years of hauling around professional looking purses and totes. My back is much happier. But I feel like I can’t quite figure out how to manage my stuff. In the past, I’d dip into my purse to grab my Clipper card to get in and out of BART, or drop my phone in my bag when I was done using it. It’s so much harder to access the stuff I need from a backpack. While I love pockets, many of my clothes don’t have them. Is there a trick to this that I’m just not getting? I also find that I’m slightly terrified that someone will pickpocket my backpack, since it’s behind me and I can’t see it. I feel like an idiot, but oh well: please help.
I’ve also switched to sensible shoes. Hello, loafers :)
Anonymous
Backpack with little side pockets at the hip? My hiking pack even has these with a forward facing zipper.
anonymous
I wear a crossbody in front with my backpack. The crossbody has my phone, wallet, keys, etc. for easy access. The backpack and crossbody actually came together (it was from LLL a few years ago) that I got because I needed crutches and thus needed to be able to carry items, have my hands free, but also ability to access items easily.
Anonymous
I feel like since I’ve gone backpack, I’ve realized I also want comfortable shoes and pockets. It’s a transition.
Anonymous
WOAH. you might have just made my friday even better with this costco revelation
Trust me on this!
Seriously? For that price? Buy the damn pants!!!! You never know when you’re going to be too tired to do laundry and black pants are the holy grail of every woman’s wardrobe!
GO.. TO.. COSTCO..
BUY..THE..PANTS..
Worry about yourself
<3
I had to commute with a backpack yesterday! I don't normally take my laptop home with me but I needed it to work from home today. Pearl clutchers gonna clutch!
anon
Honest question: How do you make pull-on leggings work-appropriate? Maybe my office is more conservative than most, but I would feel horribly uncomfortable because leggings are just not done here. I’m straight-waisted but definitely have wider hips, and really don’t want coworkers seeing all of that.
emeralds
First, I have a casual office where pull-on pants are 100% fine (indeed, celebrated). I wouldn’t wear them to a true business-casual office.
I usually throw on a longer sweater or cardigan. But they don’t show or highlight any more of anything than my skinny pants that have a zipper and a button, so it’s not really an issue for me.
Anon
A lot of the pull on pants are stretchy at the top and less so throughout, giving the appearance of a fitted waste and straight leg pants, so they don’t cling too much unless they are the wrong size or your waist and legs are abnormally small compared to your rear. I have a couple pairs of the Costco pull ons, have junk in the trunk, and I don’t feel uncomfortable at all. They really seriously come off as work slacks but feel like athleisure wear. The pair I got have the same pattern (a stitched pattern!) as the blouse above and look much more expensive than they were.
Anonymous
My waist and legs are, I guess, “abnormally small compared to my rear.” (But maybe more abnormal among WASPs than abnormal in general?)
Anon
You don’t wear actual leggings. The pants I found at Costco are stretchy and pull on like leggings, but they are not leggings. They do not taper at the ankle like leggings do, they are shaped like pants.
Owl Lover
Yeah, I recently got a similar pair at TJ max. I love them, they look like dress pants, but I don’t have to fumble with a zipper, or have one looking silly under my clothes. :)
espresso bean
Love this comment! It has been very freeing to realize that I do not owe the world a perfect blowout and outfit every day. If I WANT to go to all that effort, great. But we are allowed to be out in public without doing those things!
Anon
I just got some amazing pants at Costco this week! I don’t think they were DKNY and they were $15 at my store. I was skeptical and sure I was going to return them but they fit great and they are SO COMFORTABLE.
DKNY pants
I am wearing these all. the. time now! They are great.
Anon
This is a lovely blouse but I don’t think it counts as a “Frugal Friday” pick as an $80 shirt. Can we try to maintain the picks to “frugal for your average working woman” instead of “frugal for the mid-six figure salary”? The site has had dress frugal Friday picks that were half this price.
Anonymous
It’s not really an $80 blouse, though. It’s a $40 blouse because nobody actually buys anything at AT for less than 50% off.
Anonymous
THIS! If not a $20 blouse after you find it in the super sale section.
C2
Here’s a fun one for Friday! What or who is your latest hair cut or style inspiration?
AnonInfinity
I don’t have a specific person in mind, but I’ve started following hashtags for “curlsfordays” and “curlyhair” on Instagram and get inspiration for my hair that way!
MagicUnicorn
P!nk!!!
Worry about yourself
Petra’s recent(ish) look on Jane the Virgin, she looks fabulous with short hair and she’s been my overall style icon since I started watching the show earlier this year.
anon
I wish I could side swipe bangs like reese witherspoon. But my widowspeak and small forehead won’t allow for it.
anon
I love the instagram feed called hashtagpixiecuts.
Anon
Short (at the shoulder) layered cuts specialized to your curl pattern are very in, generally embracing your hair in its best light. Reddish browns and burgundy/wine red hair is pretty popular right now as well. I like that trends right now are falling into a less is more way with hair (soft gentle waves aka I can sleep with my hair in a roller and don’t have to flat iron every morning type of styles)
BabyAssociate
Elaborate Game of Thrones style braids are what I’m aspiring towards these days
Senior Attorney
I am dressing up as The Doctor (Doctor Who) for Halloween and I am getting my hair cut like Jodi Whittaker’s on Tuesday.
Cookbooks
That is awesome!
friend issue
I am having some issues with a friend who seems to want to take on
Example: She reads a book she thinks I would like. She starts by telling me about it over text. I say, oh, looks interesting! Then she starts suggesting dates she can stop by with a physical copy of the book. I have never asked for the book, just said I might check it out sometime. She persists with this aggressively until I tell her I am not going to be around on those dates and might just get the book from the library. Then she’ll drop it for a bit, but she eventually brings it up again and the whole cycle starts all over.
This happens with movies, podcasts, and other things she likes. I suddenly feel like I’ve agreed to something I never agreed to, like she’s escalated a casual, “Hey, you might like this” into a full-fledged YOU MUST READ THIS AND I WILL MAKE IT MY BUSINESS TO GET IT IN YOUR HANDS, which stresses me out.
My time is limited, and I like to read and watch what I want to read and watch. I’m frustrated she hasn’t noticed that I am somewhat noncommittal about some of her recommendations. Any advice?
s
Will be following for advice. I had a friend like this once. She wanted me to read the Hope Solo memoir. I hate sports and I hate anything I’ve ever heard about Hope Solo. I said it wasn’t my cup of tea. And she STILL bought me a copy and sent it in the mail! (Like wtf?!?) The only thing I can think is that she’s hungry to discuss these things with someone and likes conversations with you. Maybe suggest joining a book club? In my instance, the friend and I had a blow up over another matter (although sort of similar–she was just as pushy with her outdated views of women in management as her media tastes). I actually rejoiced throwing her book out.
Anon
Just tell her it sounds interesting for her, you won’t have time to read it/listen to it, period. If she presses, tell her “I told you I don’t have time, you kind of sound like a drug pusher.” That might sound harsh to some but in my friend group it’s a slightly joking way of telling someone “seriously you’re doing too much” and they’ll get the message and stop.
Anonymous
Just be direct. “So kind of you to offer but I’m not interested/don’t have time to read/see/do that.” Then change the subject.
AnonZ
You’re being way too passive in your responses. Don’t tell her you might get it from the library or that you won’t be home when she wants to drop it by – just say you’re not going to read it right now! Be more clear in your responses that you’re not actually interested. There are ways to be polite and continue the conversation without implying that you’d actually like to read/listen/watch. Saying things like:
“What’s been the best part so far?”
“Oh, that’s great! I know you love XYZ genre!”
“Where does this rank compared to some of your other faves?”
“You’re so good about reading all of this! I have about 50 books I want to read and I only get through about 1 per month!”
“How did you hear about it/come across it?”
And so on. If she says, “I’ll bring it to you!” or something along those lines, my suggestion is to match her enthusiasm but turn her away. “Oh, that’s so nice of you, but I’m totally absorbed in XYZ right now! And there is a whole stack of other books that I feel guilty I haven’t gotten to. I’ll definitely let you know if I need suggestions once I work through those. But I can never seem to go to the bookstore without adding to the stack!”
SC
You could try “Looks interesting. I’ve got a long to-read list right now, but I’ll keep it in mind.” For TV shows or podcasts, “Sounds good. I’m wrapped up in a couple of other series right now, so I don’t think I’ll be able to start anything new in the near future.” If she still doesn’t get the hint, you may just have to be blunt: “Friend, I appreciate that you’re thinking of me, but I like to read and watch my things, and I don’t want to branch out. I’ll ask you if I’m looking for any recommendations in the future.”
Worry about yourself
I was this person once upon a time, I kept telling my friend how much he’d like a book I’d just bought, and I actually brought it to a social event and insist he take it. He held onto it for two years before finally giving it back, having not read it, admitting that he just has no time. I wish he’d said this earlier, instead of passively telling me I didn’t have to lend it to him. “I really don’t have the time right now, but I’ll check it out next time I’m sick or snowed in.” Or what my other friend did, tell me his “things to watch” list was just too long and he couldn’t add anything else to it.
NOLA
I get this a lot and I have started making it clear to friends that I only read on my Kindle (it’s the only way I have time), so nobody should buy me or lend me a print book. I just don’t read in print. If a friend gives me a print book, I thank them and donate it. I even bought a ticket for an Anne Lamott book talk (that was wonderful) and it came with a print copy of her book that we could get signed. I gave it to a friend/grad student who bought her ticket when they were being sold as general admission without the book because I knew it would mean way more to her than to me. I bought it for Kindle while I was sitting in the audience.
Anon
I think there are maybe two issues here. One is that she is using this as a way to make plans to see you or connect with you. The other is that she wants to discuss the content she’s reading with somebody, and perhaps you have similar tastes, so you’re her first target.
I’d shut her down nicely from the get-go. Is this a person you see often, and do you want to spend time with her? If so, go with a: “hey, I’ve been too busy to read lately, but I’ve got an hour free Saturday morning – want to get a coffee, take a walk around the park and catch up?” Pair that with something more direct, maybe, “I appreciate your enthusiasm but all the available content stresses me out. You’re welcome to tell me about new stuff, but I just don’t have available bandwidth to read/see/listen to it.”
If not, either ignore the texts all together, or say, “I won’t have time to get to that one, but I’m glad you liked it!”.
Anonymama
Tell her “my time is limited” etc, straight up, just like you told us. She can’t read your mind, you have to actually communicate to her that you’re not interested in the book/podcast/etc. She’s not being pushy, just enthusiastic, and maybe a little obtuse.
Anony
Wondering if the Hive has any advice or resources?
I was recently promoted into a new, high-level position, and I’m having an interesting version of imposter syndrome. I feel totally fine about most of my responsibilities, but part of my job is increased public visibility – speaking at and attending conferences, going to receptions/dinners, and general networking.
In previous roles, I used to be pretty good at this sort of thing – not the most outgoing person in the room, but able to easily chat up the people around me and make connections. Now, I’ve really gotten in my own head and feel like there is a lot of additional pressure to represent my organization well and sort of “live up” to my new position. Part of it is that I’m (relatively) young and female so I feel like if I’m just friendly and chatty, people will wonder, “Why does SHE have that job; she comes across very young!”
I realized this was a real problem last week when I was at an event with my boss, and he said he specifically wanted to introduce me to some people who he wanted me to cultivate a further relationship with. He gave me a glowing intro and then I said hello to everyone… and then I got completely tongue-tied and basically just smiled and nodded the rest of the (very short) conversation. I feel like I’m supposed to say something brilliant or insightful or witty, and my mind goes blank and I just say nothing.
Any advice or books I could read?
Anonymous
You don’t need to say anything brilliant or insightful or witty. You just need to be interested in the other people.
BeenThatGuy
I agree. I get very uncomfortable in situations like this. The only way I can handle it is to get the other person talking about themselves (or their work). It shifts the focus off of me. And let me tell you, most people LOVE to talk about themselves.
CHL
I always like to ask people “how they got into this work” – it leaves some room for interpretation, people usually have interesting stories, and hopefully if they geek out about the same thing as you, it will help you have genuinely interesting conversations.
Anonymous
I’m really liking what I see of the J Crew “Collection” pieces, which are more expensive, more design-y, and seem to be made of good materials. For some reason there’s no option to sort out these premium pieces on their s*te, and it also seems like in general they’re not being promoted. Anyone know why? I’m especially enamored with the ‘collection silk-twill wrap blazer in jungle cat print.’
Anon
I think it’s a reaction to all of the upheaval at J.Crew in the Jenna Lyons and Mickey Drexler days and since their departure. I am the opposite J.Crew shopper to you – the prepster who wants to buy quality classic blazers, knits, chino shorts, swimsuits, workwear pieces. After Jenna came in, and it possibly started a bit before that, J.Crew’s quality was on the decline. It went from a rarely on sale company with quality to back the prices, to poor construction and materials, 50% off during every “holiday”, a load of poorly designed pieces, prices way out of sync with quality. Simultaneously, the higher-end fashion pieces became more prevalent, and it was the direction and customer base Jenna sought for the company. I can’t speak to the quality, I never bought any of those items, but I don’t think it was a perfect 10. IMHO they took a gamble, put too many resources into the wrong game, and it didn’t pay. A lot of the previous consumer base rebelled against this, I used to only shop J.Crew, and have items I got 7-10 years ago I still wear, but as the seams fell out of yet another pencil skirt, I was over it.
Late this summer, I actually bought 2 of the Mercantile line dresses for a trip to CA after seeing one on a blogger – and was shocked by great they were for the price (yes, the fabric is cheap but they were ~$18 a piece on sale). Before that, I think the last piece of J.Crew I purchased was in 2014? There are rumblings that they are refocusing on quality, but I’m gun-shy about picking up any pieces to see if it’s true or not.
Anonymous
I love their Mercantile stuff too.
Any Florida attorneys?
I’m trying to find the docket sheet for a Florida civil (family) case. I found the Appellate docket, but looking for the trial court docket. Is this online and accessible? In my state, all statewide dockets are accessible from one link, but I’ve been digging around the Florida court websites and am at a loss. Thank you!
Anonymous
Not a Florida lawyer, but work on a lot of cases in Florida. It depends on the county. Search for the county clerk of court and you should be able to find the website. The bigger counties have a lot online (like if it’s in Miami-Dade, you should be able to find it). Some of the smaller counties are hit or miss.
Hot Office
Just putting this out there for the historical record as I never in my life thought this moment would occur. I’m wearing a spaghetti strap summer dress in the office even though I’m a white collar professional and it’s 46 degrees outside. My office (which I share with 1 other person) hits 80 degrees every afternoon. Blame it on the unfixable HVAC systems. A few years ago a manager installed a portable AC unit in the room to make things more bearable. Yay! Except my office mate (who hates her job and this profession) gets really upset if I turn it on, because it makes her too cold. To try and accommodate her I don’t turn it on, although the heat makes me really uncomfortable. So, solution. I’ve decided to start dressing like her – In the winter she wears spaghetti strap tank tops and summer sandals with maxi skirts with slits on the side. I gotta say, I understand why she would feel cold in these types of clothes. I’ve had goose bumps all morning. At the same time, I really hope no one important sees me. I look so unprofessional.
Anon
She can put on a sweater, you can’t take off more clothes. She’s being ridiculous. Dress for the season, tell her to do the same and turn it on. Who cares if she’s upset. Turn it on, she harumphs, starts dressing office appropriately, we all win.
Anon
I have never understood why people don’t dress (professionally) for the season.
I see no reason to shiver in linen pants and a lightweight blouse during the summer because some brain trust wants to wear thick wool pants. I have no desire to sweat like a pig in the winter because some twit can’t put on a sweater.
Lonely Old Woman
I recently read an article about ‘elder orphans’ – older adults who have no other living relatives or children to care for them as they age and just last night saw a short documentary on FB about how our elderly deal with loneliness. The documentary focused on one particular woman who was 98, lived alone, and while she would go to the local senior center during the week, on weekends she was so lonely that she would tear her junk mail into tiny pieces to pass the time. It completely devastated me.
See, I will probably be one of those elder orphans one day. I am not married and couldn’t tell you the last time I went on what was even a casual date. I have no kids. My family is very small. It’s really just myself, my dad, my sister and her husband (who is a good bit older than her.) My goal is to outlive my sister so she never has to be alone, but after that, I have no idea what to do. Friendwise, I have several long-time friendships, but they aren’t the kind of friends who call me and ask how I’m doing. Last year, when my mom was very sick and dying, I never even called any of them to tell them what was going on. They all have their own lives and families and I didn’t want to burden them with my issues, so I wouldn’t want to be a burden to them when I’m old, either.
The idea of being old and alone and with nobody to take care of me if I were to become sick or incapacitated in my old age has me terrified. I think a lot of this is coming from the fact that I am approaching the one-year anniversary of my mom’s passing and I’m really having a hard time with it. It seemed that after she died, I really just went through all the motions of getting. things. done. because it was so close to the holidays and I had to pull myself back together for work (she passed Thursday, funeral was Saturday, I had to be back at work on Monday because I don’t have anyone to back up my job and Mondays/Tuesdays are my critical days at work.) Now I’m realizing that a year has passed and I’m really struggling with my emotions. Add to that the article and documentary and I’m really a mess.
Has anyone else planned for their future as an “elder orphan”? Has anyone heard of any resources for people in this situation? Maybe if I feel like I have a bit of a security blanket for my solitary old age, I won’t feel so freaked out and I can start feeling a bit more in control.
TIA, Ladies.
Anonymous
The key is to not live alone. Many retirement facilities offer escalating levels of care but at the more independent level include many communal activities such as trips to the mall etc and eating meals in a common dining room.
You can volunteer at a local school, or do other work depending on your health. Heck, my yoga teacher is a retired lady. Set a goal to leave the house and have an engagement/interaction every day.
Annie
I think you need to join a community of people who will care about you long-term. A religious institution would do this, but if that’s not your thing, my grandma’s language class was like this for her — they all took a foreign literature class together from their 70s to their 90s and checked in on one another and cared about how they were doing. Join a community center, join a service org., and start making connections that can last long-term.
Anonymous
This worries me a lot too. I really only have my parents, and my parents only have me. Not married, no children, and while I would like to be married and have children, I highly doubt it’s going to happen since I’m 33. I anticipate spending some years taking care of my parents when they are elderly, and after that, I don’t know. My future just seems very bleak and lonely. I actually work in a healthcare-related industry where I see a lot of old dying people and it terrifies me to think I will be alone and forgotten at the end of my life. I don’t make much money so it’s not like I will have millions saved for my care, either. I have good friends but they have their own lives and families.
I’m so sorry about your mom. I wish I had answers.
Anonymous
“I highly doubt it’s going to happen since I’m 33”
Seriously?
Never too many shoes...
Dear Anonymous – I know this sounds so trite and impossible to believe…but 33 is far, far too young to just give up on the idea that love and children and whatever else you dream of has passed you by.
Anonymous
To be blunt, most people who live to be 98 (or even 90) are pretty alone. Even if you had kids you very well might outlive some or all of them, and even if you have living children you will almost certainly be in a nursing care facility and likely not all that mentally aware. I know many 90-somethings who live in nursing homes and whose kids aren’t nearby and don’t visit more than once a year or so. At the end, most people are surrounded by paid staff, not family. There’s a great quote in the movie Up in the Air when Anna Kendrick is trying to convince George Clooney about why marriage is worth it and finally she says, “I dunno, not dying alone?” and he says “Make no mistake, we all die alone.” I’m not trying to minimize your feelings, but I definitely don’t know too many people who have been died at 90+ who have really been surrounded by family til the end. And if you pass in your 70s or 80s (or even a mentally fit 90s), you will likely still have friends and siblings and won’t be that lonely. My grandmothers both found great friendships at retirement communities they moved to while they were still relatively young and mentally sharp. It’s when your mind goes that you can’t maintain relationships with anyone that isn’t paid or immediately family.
I’m sorry about the loss of your mom.
Anonymous
So this could be me. My mom just died. I have a tiny family. I am single and might remain so. But I am not worried about this. I invest a lot of time and energy into building friendships. It is hard for me. I don’t have the knack for it some people do. But I persevere. I plan carefully financially to hopefully be able to move into assisted living. I think loneliness is horrible and a real issue, but I’m also doing my best here to survive it! It is not a burden to tell your friends when life isn’t perfect. That is the point of friendship. My grief is stillto raw for counseling but it’s in my short term plan and I think it should be in yours too
anon
I’ve heard of some pilot social programs where older people are matched with younger students to provide affordable housing in the senior’s home, and in exchange, the students may help out in some way, such as with some of the senior’s chores around the home, getting to appointments, or just providing some social interaction. I won’t post a link to avoid mod, but you can search “Seniors, students living together to save on housing costs” or similar. I don’t know if that scenario would appeal to you, but from the articles I have read from these programs in Canada and Scandinavia, it seems to really bring some extra activity to the senior’s lives. The matching programs would typically take care of all the things like safety screening and managing rent payments, so its less burdensome on the older people than a typical renting scenario.
Kk
Oh, this is so sad to me- but I dont want anyone to think that aging alone in their house is the only option!
I think there was also a program like this at Berkeley College of Music, in Boston. The elderly people and students gained wisdom and companionship from each other, and I seem to recall that the older participants enjoyed being surrounded by practicing student musicians.
After my grandfather passed, my grandma stayed in her house for about a year, but at 90+ years old, she was lonely and afraid to leave- her house (and the ice and snow outside) forced her into isolation. My mom and her sisters convinced her to do a trial month, which turned into three, then six, then became permanent residence at an independent and assisted living facility. My grandma loved having an apartment where she could entertain, but also having the option where she could go to happy hour, or painting classes, or out to museum tours, with her neighbors.
All that is to say- I think there’s a part of the american dream that talks us into home ownership, and we think that’s the end of the story. In reality, the next part of the dream for me is raising a family in a house, but moving somewhere smaller where I can be surrounded by a diverse group of people at similar places in their life- kind of like college!
Panda Bear
Oh lord, now I want to cry (and go volunteer to be friends with old people). I’ve thought about this kind of experience being in my future too. I’m only in my mid-30’s but my husband is much older than me and we are not going to have kids, so I know there is going to be a certain amount of emptiness ahead. That’s why I do make an extra effort to stay close to friends, cousins, and other family members… and it also motivates me to stay physically healthy, and make sensible choices re: retirement and long-term care planning. Anyway – in your case, OP, reach out to those friends! Especially now, as you are experiencing a tough time on the anniversary of your mom’s loss… maybe they aren’t the kind of people who are good about remembering to pick up the phone and call you, but that doesn’t mean they will find your outreach to them burdensome. Also, maybe see a therapist who specializes in grief counseling. That helped me so much when my dad passed away, not just in the immediate aftermath but in the months and years after when grief would well up.
Anonymous
Travel.
Make plans for everything you will do later that you don’t have time to do now.
Anyway there are going to be about 40% orphans in the future because fewer and fewer people are getting married and having kids.
PolyD
First – one year out from your mother’s death is not that long. Of course you are still reeling! Give yourself some more time. Not that your concerns are not valid, but on top of losing your mother, they may seem more terrifying than they are in reality.
About the elder orphan issue – I am in a relationship, so maybe won’t be a complete elder orphan, but still, no kids.
My “solution” is to try to save and invest so I can throw money at some of the problems. My other solution is to cultivate friendships with people you can rely on and confide in – easier said than done, but sometimes we have to build our own families. Easier said than done, but I think it’s something that’s becoming more and more common, as people move away from their families of origin and maybe don’t marry and/or have kids.
I have a group of single female friends (we’re all late 40s- early 50s) and we joke/not joke about buying a small apartment building together so we each have our own apartment and we can rent one of the apartments to a young person who, in exchange for reduce rent, will help with maintenance and make sure we’re not dead in our apartments each morning.
Anonymous
This problem is entirely within your control. You need to nurture your circle of friends now. Take steps to do that. If you want a partner, date. It is easier now than ever to do that online. Get out there and create the life you want to live.
Anonymous
+1 I am late 30s, childless, and single by choice and plan to stay this way for the foreseeable future. I have one sibling who I am not close to and my family is otherwise very small. I have wonderful friends and while they have their own lives and families, we have made efforts to remain close even as our friendships ebb and flow due to varying life stages. Even in a doomsday scenario, where everyone I know now dies or disowns me, I still would be making an effort to have a life assuming that’s what I want (I constantly joke about living in the woods alone as a hermit, which honestly sounds amazing).
Whether they are willing to admit it or not, people who are alone are making choices that result in them being alone. As Anon at 12:15 p.m. said this is within your control. Go change it.
Shananana
So, I am in my late 30’s but actually have made some plans towards being an elder orphan. I have siblings, but none of them are having kids, and honestly I am pretty fine with never getting married if my other option is online dating.
I have a group of similarly situated friends and we have basically a “golden girls” plan in place. While most of us are in busy parts of our life and aren’t as close as we’d like to be on a regular basis, having this plan in place has helped us all be less panicky.
Should that fall apart though, my aunt has been pursuing a great option that I hadn’t really heard of before she started the process. It is a full community, and you purchase into it as a single family house, but they also have condos you can move to later, assisted living, and a full nursing home situation. There is a restaurant that is included with the membership where you can go eat when you don’t feel like cooking or want to be social, and there are groups and travel opportunities, etc. Obviously, not the cheapest, but as you think towards retirement it is a way to get into a group of like minded/similarly situated people.
Anyway, these are the 2 things I keep on my radar to avoid the I will be so lonely, me and my dog, spiral it is easy to get in to. That said, I had an unusual family and always had people around who didn’t get married and have children, or otherwise had non standard paths through life. I think starting to pay attention to how other older similarly situated people are looking at this helps too. The best thing I have done for myself is surround myself and create relationships with people of all ages.
Gail the Goldfish
My grandmother moved in to a community like that after my grandfather died and I called it a cruise ship on land for old people because of all the activities.
I take some cold comfort in the fact no one in my family makes it past their early 80s and tends to die before they get too infirmed.
meara
Ugh, I feel this. Our medical system is so set up for people who have a partner or a parent or. Kid who can set aside all kinds of time for them to be there and help and so on. And that’s super unrealistic for a lot of us. I plan to have friends if I ever reach that age, and don’t anticipate being so lonely I tear junk mail, but I recently broke my leg, and don’t have any family in town. I’ve got lots of great friends who’ve been super helpful and it’s STILL been making me crazy how unhelpful the medical system is. No, I don’t have someone who can just take all day off on a week day to drive me to an appointment and wait around for 1-3 hours until I’m done, multiple times a week. What’s my other option? Insurance won’t pay for $50 uber rides each way!
Anon
“Last year, when my mom was very sick and dying, I never even called any of them to tell them what was going on. They all have their own lives and families and I didn’t want to burden them with my issues, so I wouldn’t want to be a burden to them when I’m old, either.”
If one of my good friends didn’t tell me when her mom was sick and dying, I would think she didn’t care for me very much as a friend. (Obviously, if her mom gets sick and dies rather quickly, I don’t expect a phone call or email or whatever – but if this is over a period of weeks, I want to know so I can help.)
Part of being a friend is to let people be a friend to you.
CCRC bound
I have. I’m married to someone only 7 years older, but with a chronic condition that will likely shorten his life. I have a sister and a nephew (and a mother) but don’t live near them. So I’ve picked out the CCRC (Continuing Care Retirement Community) I want to move into when I’m a little older (49 now) that provides independent living up to memory care. I even stalk their monthly newsletter and dinner/lunch choices. I’m honestly excited to move in and it’s near a college so I can take classes, go on trips.
Prepper
this is an interesting point — as to planning for your later in life loneliness. How much of elderly loneliness is just not planning for it or actively avoiding thinking about what will happen to you? Or not thinking that it will happen to you, so you don’t foster relationships, or pick up hobbies, or importantly, try your best to remain active and limber so that you can live a full life and that you CAN leave your house safely without a fall risk.
And this is not to “victim blame” old people, I”m not saying that yoga will make you live forever, but I would never think that life magically continues on just as it did before. Getting old is tough mentally and physically, but you can plan for it, and you can prepare yourself for it
CCRC I love your plan! best of luck to you, but in the meanwhile, enjoy whatcha got!
Anon
My beloved hair stylist moved away last year and I found a new one through a recommendation from a friend. I am finally admitting that I don’t like the haircuts she gives me. I have been so unhappy with how I look in photos lately and I think a big part of the reason is my haircut. Plus I think I’m ready to grow my hair out a little after having it fairly short so I’m going to need to go through that awkward growth stage and I just feel so blah. No question here — just a vent because I’m going through a phase where I’m not happy with my appearance.
Anonymous
Finding a new hairstylist is such an ordeal. I feel you. The last cut mine gave me was very nearly a mullet…
Anonymous
Thanks to everyone who commented on Wednesday about writing an offer letter to the sellers!
As you suggested, we focused on the lot, and not the condition of the house – we praised the pretty site, big oak trees, charming area, and the “friendly” house. I did tell them we’d be working with the local historical society to restore the home “to how it may have appeared in earlier times” (I indeed did not mention the questionable design choices, the ’70s addition, or the ’90s “update”).
We submitted an offer Wednesday for $125k under list ($300k under their original list 2 years ago) and they came back with $75k under current list ($250k under original list) and we accepted last night!
This community really is great :)
C2
Congrats!!! I commented on your original post. I’m one of those people who really values old homes, but understands that people have to live in them in modern times. I hope there are many charming things you can uncover and are able to save on your journey. You might find inspiration from two of my favorites in the home blog game – House of Brinson’s restoration of a historical property and Young House Love’s restoration of their first beach house.
Anon
Congrats!! Have fun ripping it apart :)