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An older friend was reminiscing recently about the ’70s and ’80s, when a woman who had a career generally had to either decide NOT to have kids or, if they were determined to become a mom, find a way to make it work somehow. I suppose it doesn't sound so strange to write it out here — sure, everyone makes choices — but there was a darkness to her tone that struck me, an underlayer of “If you really need to have kids, you can, but your career will suffer and you'll never see your kids anyway — so if you were a ‘working woman' first or someone who wanted a big career, you wouldn't have kids back then.” (She never had kids, but had several long and successful careers.) I thought we'd talk about it today, decades away from the time she was talking about… What messages have you received about kids and career, and have you ever felt like you needed to choose between the two? If you've ever pondered motherhood, did you feel like your career would be constrained to any extent by having kids?
Here are some things to discuss regarding the The Kid Question for working women:
- For everyone: What messaging have you received about The Kid Question? What have you felt is “expected of you” (by your family/friends/education/office culture)? Which doors have you left open, which have you gone through, and which have you shut, whether mentally or physically?
- For younger women: How much do you think the message “Make a choice: motherhood OR your career” is still an issue for women today?
- For working moms: What has surprised you about the sacrifices that working mothers have to make? What have been your best strategies or tools for juggling motherhood and a career (flexible work arrangements, long maternity leaves, options to lean out/on-ramp)? (Coincidentally, over at CorporetteMoms today I'm sharing my top tips on how to find balance as a working mom…)
- For women without kids, either by choice or circumstance: How has the lack of kids affected your career? What would you advise younger women?
As for me, I think the messaging around career and motherhood has changed significantly — I saw a lot of working mothers in both the magazine world and the legal world, and I never really questioned whether I could have both a career and kids. I did think life would be crazy… but like Finals Week crazy. Intense periods of stress, but mostly doable. That said, I do know of at least one friend my age who did make career choices based on her desire to be a mother — she went for her MBA in her late 20s and was considering becoming an investment banker, but was steered away from that track because she told her advisers she also wanted to have kids a year or two after graduating. (If memory serves she had her son right after graduation, so she may have even been pregnant when these discussions were happening.)
Now, as a mom of two kids, I'll say that it's way crazier and that the crazy is more prolonged than I had expected. (There was a whole “Mommy Effect” study that found that a lot of moms-to-be have an unrealistic view of what life as a working mom will be like.) I also feel like the decision to have kids means you step away from what is plannable or even knowable to a certain extent — you step away from clear goalposts and milestones in a career sense and move at your own pace, which may be faster or slower depending on your family situation. (As I write this, the question of equity comes to mind — do men who want or expect to be fathers have to step away from clear goalposts and milestones? Do they walk into parenthood expecting to make any sacrifices, and even with equal parenting, do male parents make equal sacrifices? Might be an interesting discussion to have with the guys in your life.)
Let's hear from you, readers — what does The Kid Question look like to you now? Do you feel like you have to sacrifice kids for career, to any extent in 2019? If you're a working mom, what choices and sacrifices have you made? If you don't have kids yet but plan to, what choices and sacrifices do you expect to make?
Stock photo via Shutterstock / NotarYES.
Abby
I grew up with a SAHM, my husband did too. When we first started dating (college age), I told him I really wanted to be one because I loved having my mom home so much, and he agreed. I always felt defensive about it, I think I’m smart and hardworking so I’m not trying to get out of having a job, I just thought it would be best for our family.
Fast forward 5 years, we’re now married and kids are 3-5 years away, but sometimes I joke about never having kids. I had a really good job right off the bat at my first job, and am now at a different company/career that needs a lot of hard work now that will pay off in 3-5 years, right when we’d think of having kids.
DH is ok with whatever I want to do, stay at home or work and we can afford either one financially, but when I told my mom, she said “I don’t want you to have my life!” which made me really sad. My mom went from being a registered nurse to running our household. I had such a great childhood because of how involved she was, I know it was a sacrifice.
I don’t have any friends with kids yet, but I don’t have any other friends who are as open about potentially being a SAHM as I was, but they all plan on having kids so I’d say most women my age are planning to kill it at both, but reality might be a different story.
KKat2019
I’m almost 31, married two years, and this very issue has been on my mind a lot lately. I’m a lawyer but due to my husband’s career (still fledgling after spending 7 years getting a PhD) there’s a lot of uncertainty over where we’ll end up geographically as well as professionally. I know the general type of law I want to practice but haven’t articulated clear “goals” (like make partner or make X amount of money). I’ve been ambivalent about whether to have children, but lean much more towards “yes” as of late. I know it’s taboo to even think this, but what if I regret having the child? It’s a decision there’s no turning back from, so if I end up getting a sociopath or a child who has severe developmental issues I’m not equipped mentally/physically/financially to handle, I think it would have a terrible impact on my own mental health, my marriage, and of obviously my career as well. Because of the geographic uncertainty it’s unlikely we’ll end up near any family who could help, so we’d be on our own. My husband is really just starting out in his field so there’s a financial component to worry about as well. My fear is that by waiting until my husband’s career is secured and we know where we’ll be living for the next fear years, I may miss the boat in terms of fertility. I don’t know where to even start to unpack all this and make a reasonable decision.
Anonymous
I could have written your post, no answers to give unfortunately, just letting you know you aren’t alone!
Anonymous
Me three!
Ellen
I am a partner and have spent so much time @work that I have not been able to find a guy who will marry me NOW so I can be a SAHM, while he works. I sometimes wish I had just had $ex with a rich guy when I first graduated college, and by now my kids would have been all teenagers about to start thinking of college. So it would have been great to ship them off to college in 2-3 years and then effectively retire to a life at the country club with Rosa, having put up all the kids for my husband while he continues to work to maintain our lifestyle. As I said before, I would not mind continuing to have good $ex with him once a week to keep the fire burning, so to speak. That would be a fair price to pay, though Jeff Bezos’es wife just picked up $34 BILLION in a martial settlement once he started chasing that other Sanchez woman, whose brother kept trying to horn in on their privacy. FOOEY on him, tho if he marries again, his new wife will get a boat load of $$$$ if they ever split up!
Anna
I’m slightly younger (28) but was in a similar boat until recently. My husband is finishing up his PhD this year and we thought he was going to get a academic job and move. Well, the academic job market hasn’t panned out and he’s more and more inclined to look at industry and in the meantime I accepted a really good job offer (which, luckily has decent maternity leave) in our current city so it’s looking more like we’re not moving. My husband leans more toward being DINKs (but is fine with kids) while I’ve leaned a bit more towards having kids but am still highly nervous at the prospect in general, and especially how it’ll affect my career. We had decided to wait until my husband graduates to have a kid, knowing we’d probably have them away from family but now that we’re not moving family will be a bit closer, though still a couple hours away. The kid thing is really starting to come up now and I’m a huge mixture of tentatively excited/nervous/scared.
Anon
I didn’t think it was still a big issue, but I’m learning it is! I’m not a mom but lots of my friends are having their first babies. I’m pretty floored that these women, who are all highly educated (doctors, lawyers, etc) and skilled and employed in high-powered careers, are prioritizing motherhood over careers. I mean, of course your kid should be the most important thing to you. But I was really surprised at how my career-minded friends changed after babies. They’ve all decided to work part-time after going back to work, or lean way out because they want to have a second kid soon after the first one, or take an extra long maternity leave. The husbands, of course, are doing no such thing. In fact, one friend is going to part-time so she can be at home with the kid while her husband tries to make partner.
Not having kids means at work I’m viewed as someone who never needs time off or never has plans. My coworkers work from home when their kid is sick, I have to be there. It sucks.
Anonymous
YMMV but amongst my peer group there were a lot of women who were smart and did well in school who went to law, med and b school as an insurance policy — in case mr. right didn’t come along or they could make babies. They liked their careers just fine but never wanted to be doctors or lawyers, their first choice was MOMMY. So when a kid comes along, it’s the perfect excuse to finish off their 5-15 year long career to be home changing diapers and baking cookies. Say what you will but it’s easier to do that than have a boss demanding a brief on a deadline or a client insisting on a call at 7 pm.
Anonymous
I will say that all of my primary care doctor / NP / nurse friends are able to get part-time schedules with a hard stop. Their fields are understaffed, so they are able to get what they want. I with BigLaw could allow for this, but there is an oversupply of lawyers so they will never say yes. Medicine is different — the loans are high and it’s hard to have the loan debt and go into primary care (yet alone work PT — the loans dont get reduced any for that). But it would be a nice option to have.
Anonymous
+1 I can totally vouch for this, as I am currently a biglaw associate who hopes to quit the second I get to have a baby and never return, but I really wouldn’t say it’s “easier” at all. Motherhood isn’t a lesser or easier option to having a career. It is an exhausting 24/7 career in itself, just a different form of one, and it lasts a lifetime – not just until retirement.
Anon
Ummm … all moms are moms for a lifetime, regardless of whether they work outside of the home or not. And I don’t really think that the job of parenting lasts a lifetime. I don’t know about you, but I’m not calling my parents every day asking for advice or for them to do something for me. I think it would be pretty fair to say that the job of parenthood is not an exhausting 24/7 career once the kids leave for college (I think that exhausting part ends well before that, but I hope we can all agree it ends by 18-22)
Anon
I agree. Parenting is a very important role for life. It’s not a ‘career’ for life. It’s certainly not a career once your children have left your house, but I would really say it’s not anything close to a full-time career once all your kids are in grade school. If your kids are in school from 9-3 and then home with you from 3-5 and you claim parenthood is your ‘career,’ you’re definitely working no more than part time. Parents with full-time jobs are parenting on weekends and evenings too, so you’re basically spending an extra 10-15 hours/week with your kids. That’s very part time.
Anonymous
At least you’re honest that you don’t want a career and it was just a back up plan. But you’re kidding yourself if you think dealing with your kids diapers or their preschool show is in the same echelon as brief writing, deal work, or patient care. One involves generating wealth and servicing million dollar clients, the other involves pampers.
Eh
This is really condescending. I am a lawyer and work full time (often 60 hour weeks), but I am also a parent, so I know what they both entail. To reduce parenting to “involves pampers” is just glib and uninformed. But that’s why you said it, isn’t it?
anon
The legal work you described is not inherently more meaningful just because you are servicing million dollar clients. That is a ridiculous notion.
Senior Attorney
And there’s absolutely no job security. If you’re living on your spouse’s income your dependent on them, and spousal and child support orders are only worth what you can collect.
Anonymous
This is what I wish more SAHMs understood.
My kid is a tween now and a lot of his friends’ moms stayed home. Unfortunately, a lot of his friends’ parents are now getting divorced (which is apparently common when kids hit the preteen/teenage years). Some of the moms have approached me at drop-off asking about career help (I am an HR professional). If they are over 45, I have bad news for them – their chances of going back to work in their old career and making anything close to what they used to is next to nil, if they have been out of the workforce 10+ years and have not kept up their skills. A 45-year-old with recent experience and fresh skills can still encounter age discrimination in hiring. I’ve seen a lot of women go back to work as assistants, retail workers, call-center employees etc. because they can’t get hired back into their old careers. They have no choice because they have no money. Anyone who thinks living on child support and alimony is a road to easy street needs to speak with people who are doing it. As SA says, it’s based on what the ex chooses to pay (and when).
If anyone out there is pondering quitting because it “seems easier,” I would say it’s easier until Plan A fails. What if your spouse gets sick or becomes disabled and can’t work? What if he spends all your money on a mistress and then dumps you to run away with her? (This actually happened to someone I did free resume counseling for.) What if your child gets sick or has special needs or gets into a car accident and one income is no longer enough to pay for appropriate medical care? Women who drop out of working are really laying a lot on the line with that choice and betting that it will work out for them. Many times, it doesn’t.
OP
I agree with you to a point, but in no way do I think being a stay at home mom is easier than working. Taking care of kids is exhausting and all-consuming.
Mom of 3
I grew up with a mom who worked part-time and was with us in the afternoons (2 easy girls, she even says so to this day.
I am a working mom of 3 young kids (12 and under), and I’m very resentful that I have to work so many hours along with parenting so intensely. In fact, I think that the new mode of parenting is what makes it so difficult to be a working mom, along with being on-call 24/7 due to technology. There are basically no boundaries around either one, parenting or working. There is no time for anything else. Even though my mom worked, I like looked so different because expectations placed on her as both an employee and a parent were very different than they are today. I think that either way, you are screwed. I feel like I cannot win anything right now, and much of the messaging I received earlier in my life is almost irrelevant now.
anon
You are right in that technology makes it so hard to end the work day even when neck deep in kids, family, laundry, dinner, homework, etc. If it were an option for me, I would choose to be a stay at home mom. I would gladly give up working outside the home. I’m fully responsible for the duties of both the breadwinner and the stay at home mom. Neither get 100% from me because all I have to give is 100% and it has to be split between the two. When I’m stronger at work, home is getting less. When I’m stronger at home, work is getting less. My heart is with my home life. My head tells me I have to work for health benefits and paying the bills. I do both and balancing the commitment to both is a massive stressor that I would love to ditch. If I had the option of unloading that stressor I would do it. Then I’d have more time to commit to what I really love. To me being a stay at home mom, while it is alot of work, it is less stressful than having to juggle both, because for moms like me I still have all the responsibilities of the stay at home mom, plus have to work outside the home. For those moms who have the option to stay at home full time, and I know how it can be a sacrifice of your career, don’t ever doubt yourself. You’re doing something very important and you should never regret not developing a career. If I had the option, I’d do it too.
Anon
Why would you need to work from home when your co-worker’s kid is sick? I’m confused.
Anonymous
I think she means she doesn’t get to work from home. (But how do you know? More flexible work benefits everyone, not just people with kids. Some people care for ailing parents. Some people have many cats. I’m not saying they are equivalent, but I think the option for flexible work should be available to the average middle-class desk worker.)
Vicky Austin
I think they’re saying “my coworkers work from home when their kid is sick,” which means OP is required to be in if someone else is WFH.
Anon
I think she’s complaining about her co-workers getting a “perk” that she doesn’t. I’m not sure I’d call WFH with a sick kid a perk though.
Anon
Hard eye roll at the suggestion that somehow mothers in the United States get perks or a better deal.
Anon
Yeah, this. Getting to work from home once in a while with a pukey kid really makes up for all the discrimination and pay inequality.
anon
Yeah, the answer to this issue isn’t getting mad at women who have kids because the company doesn’t respect your life, it’s for both parents and non-parents to get made at the employer for not respecting people’s lives. Same holds true for the ‘burden’ that falls onto other employees when a woman takes maternity leave. Don’t get mad at her. She didn’t decide that the female of the species gestates. She didn’t decide that childbirth should require a recovery time. She’s not responsible for the fact that the baby needs intense care in the first few months of life. Get mad at the company who refuses to hire a temp or properly compensate employees who are taking on more work.
Don’t fall into the trap! Corporate America wants people to blame each other instead of pointing the finger at them.
Anonymous
The option to work from home to handle a personal situation shouldn’t be exclusively granted to parents. But I thought she meant that she had to fill in for parents who weren’t there.
Anononon
I’m one of the women you’re talking about, where I started scaling back after kids, but it is 100% a choice I’ve made. I didn’t think I would make it, I thought I would keep pressing the gas. But something changed when I had kids. I don’t want to stay at home by any means, but I’ve scaled back at work for sure. I just like my kids a lot more than I expected, I guess. I want to hang out with them more! And I don’t think we should be disappointed in people like me, or suggest that society is pressing us out, or we aren’t really making our own choices.
In addition, my husband picked a way less demanding residency so that he could have a better lifestyle, including future kids. He had the luxury of still making good money (and that has obviously affected my own choices to scale back) but it isn’t like women are the only ones making these choices. I think it’s a totally reasonable choice not to go into investment banking! My husband never would have either.
Monday
The inequality you mention is one of the (many) reasons I have never wanted kids. It almost always requires serious sacrifices, and the mother almost always sacrifices more than the father. Looking around at my peers, this hasn’t changed as much from our parents’ generation as we like to think. I’m just not willing to do that.
OP
Yes, the inequality is one the reasons I’m really wary about having children. With my friends (progressive, liberal women!) it’s not even a discussion point or up for debate – the dad works, so naturally the mom has to work less and that’s just the way it is. I would refuse to even date someone with that mindset.
Anon
You say “I would refuse to even date someone with that mindset.” I assume you’re implying the men have the mindset that women should stay home and are (at best) encouraging or (at worst) pushing their wives to lean out? But are you really sure this is coming from the men? I’m the person who commented below about wishing I could be a SAHM. My husband has never in any way, shape or form suggested I lean out or quit. If anything it’s the opposite – he would love it if I took a higher-paying job so he could lean out a bit. I don’t really know any true SAHMs well, but for the women I know who have gone to part-time or taken more laidback jobs to spend more time with their kids, it was very much a 100% voluntary thing. The husband was supportive of whatever they wanted to do, and there was no sense from him that they needed to lean out to support his career. And I know quite a few dads who’ve leaned out too, so I don’t think it’s only a woman’s issue.
anon
Maybe trust her to know what she’s talking about? Of course there are women who want to lean out. And of course there are men who want their wives/female SOs to lean out– or just expect it by default because they think that’s how it is? How is this a question?
lawsuited
I my experience it’s more “the dad works and doesn’t take on his share of the childcare and home tasks, so the mom has to lean out because she is getting burned out trying to care for a home, children and kill it at work”.
And I know that women without children still do more than their fair share of home tasks, but I find home tasks (cleaning, laundry, home improvement projects) much easier to outsource than childcare.
Anon
I agree whole-heartedly about being childfree and your plans being treated as less important. I have been struggling with eldercare for over a decade. A parent needs to leave early to pull a sick kid out of daycare? Of course, no problem! My ailing father had an episode and needs to see his neurologist immediately? Oh, is that really urgent? Can’t someone else do it? It’s so stupid and short-sighted. People need care at both ends of their lives.
anon
In CA, laws cover both situations…. just an FYI.
Anonymous
This resonates with me. My friends from college have leaned way out after having kids (either going part time or, after having their second kid, leaving the workforce). On the other hand, my friends from law school have returned, and stayed with, their firms for a few years after having kids (we are mid-levels). Obviously some of them will start leaving when partnership doesn’t happen, but I had originally assumed they might scale back post-kids, which has not happened.
Anecdotally, my friends who did not scale back are the primary breadwinners in their family (their husbands work part time or have flexible, 9-5 jobs), as am I. My friends who scaled back had jobs that were equal or less than their husbands jobs compensation wise. I think that disparity can really change how you view your career – I think it’s easier to consider scaling back/opting out when you do not view your job as your family’s sole livelihood.
On the topic of equality, also anecdotally, with my friends who have stayed home, many of their husbands are not happy about it, for various reasons (financial impact, raised by working mother, assumed both parents would scale back but keep working so both parents could be active parents, forced to take more intense jobs and spend less time at home with the kids, just surprised by the radical change from career-focused to kid-focused). I also have friends who want to stay home but financially cannot do so, which has been stressful. Basically, a lot more tension over this than I would have thought. My friends who did not scale back were in marriages where it was always clear the husband would scale back, and it’s been an easier transition for them, I think because the expectations were clear up front.
After seeing many friends go through it, I actually deferred having kids. I was worried that if I had kids I might want to scale back on my career at the “wrong” time (husband was completing a PhD; certain career opportunities open up to me if I stay in my current role longer). I plan to start trying to have kids soon (I’m almost 31), and I am happy with my decision. If I decide to stop working, I have saved meaningfully more money by staying at my current job. And if I decide to scale back, my opportunities to do so will come with significantly higher compensation and flexibility, and more interesting work, than they would have if I l scaled back two to three years ago.
Basically, these issues are complicated and challenging.
Anonymous
I went part-time for four years when my son was young. My husband assented to it but he did enthusiastically embrace it. At one point I was very part-time and he was making 75% of our household income. It puts a lot of strain on the relationship for one person to be the sole (or nearly sole) breadwinner, even if they agree to do it. I didn’t fully understand that until it happened in my family. As it turned out, he got laid off in 2009 and I went back to work full-time (although in a very flexible situation) until I finished my graduate degree, and then I got a better job. 7 years later I am making almost as much money as he is.
Most men I know who have SAHMs as wives have a degree of resentment about it that they express. They did not plan on being the only one working and recognize that it sets the family back in terms of retirement saving, college saving, backup health insurance, etc. I also hear from SAHMs that their working husbands do very little around the house or with basic care for the kids because “that’s what you’re staying home to do.” It sets up a very unequal dynamic. I would rather be in a marriage of equals than one where I have to beg my husband to do anything around the house and he resents me because he has to go off to work every day, and I don’t.
Anon
I agree. Of my good friends, the ones we thought married down because they married part-time/less successful men are all full time still, the ones who married men just as successful as them are now working part-time or at low pay low hour type of jobs. It’s an interesting dynamic for sure. I’m not sure either group is better off than the other at this point. A friend who married a part-timer guy always complains about how he doesn’t do housework the way she wanted him to, how the dishes he cleaned were less clean, and he always forgot to sweep corners, and was playing video games too much. A friend who married up likes to brag about how well-off her husband is, but when we get together for meals and he pays, I could sense something a little off between them. It’s like she would touch his arm to convey her gratefulness, or he would sometimes tell her not to order something even if she really wanted it.
lawsuited
Of course my primary focus was career before I had kids. There was no choice to make then. What was I going to focus on instead of my career? Now I have to choose between 2 very compelling things every moment: my fun, challenging work or my fun, challenging kids. Before kids I was completely happy to spend of my waking minutes (with some time carved out for family and friends) on my work, but of course I have to dedicate some of that time to my kids now. I’m the only mom they’ve got, and this is the only childhood they’re going to have.
ket
If childcare was better in the US, this would be less common. But daycare is so expensive, and the rules about having the kid out when she’s got a fever so strict, and the difficulty of finding backup care such a hassle, and dealing with nanny taxes so annoying, and finding someone you trust to take care of your kid so hard that if you have the choice between just skipping that crap or paying $12-24k/year for daycare, well…
My husband wanted me to be more stay-at-home. I want to double my salary so that daycare is not such a big percentage. Ugh. I like my kid, but I’m not, in my opinion, an ideal SAHM.
Anon
Back in my grandparents’ generation in China, the Communist Party required all women to work. So my grandmothers all worked full time while having at least four children each. But they also did very little parenting (neither cooked) and basically let my parents ran around and do whatever they wanted. My parents’ generation turned out ok in the end but were not the most happy about the way they were brought up. After the one-child policy came into effect, more Chinese women became SAHMs because there was higher pressure that their only child be successful. As for my generation and friends, it’s too early to tell but I do find that a much higher percentage of my American friends chose to be SAHMs than my Chinese friends for some reason. However, of the ones who still work, more Chinese friends work part time than American friends.
Anon
My dad raised me as a single parent, and it definitely gave me a lot of opinions about parenting. He had a great career and he’s a great dad, and I think the key was that he was very strategic about the things he did for us. We were at after-school until closing time, but once we got home, we would do things like play basketball. We had chores from an early age, out of necessity. He coached our sports teams and was able to work at a job that enabled him to attend our games.
Women have talked about the “expectations” of motherhood, which are, IMHO, the expectations of white, suburban, upper-middle class mothers whose husbands have good jobs. It should be obvious how I feel about that.
Anon
My career has entirely been made possible by my mother. She was a SAHM, and (despite having a happy marriage and comfortable life) she always wanted her daughters to have careers and our own money. Her best lessons are: (i) parenting is hard, (ii) it was never meant to be done by only two people, (iii) mothers need people to care for them too. For thousands of years, across all cultures, mothers had help – especially from their own mothers. In her view, the idea of “doing it all” is a stupid and damaging. It really freed me to take her help and not feel mom guilt. She watches my kids when their sick or if I am on a business trip. She frequently takes them for the weekend, so I can have a couple days to relax and get caught up. I am so grateful for her.
Anon
Amen to the lessons above. I had no idea how much I would crave support from others once I became a parent. Husband and I moved out of home state immediately upon graduating and never looked back, but we know now we can’t have another kid without family to help.
anon
You’re so fortunate to have her help, and so wise to listen to her advise.
Anon
I’m a working mom to a 16 month old. It’s incredibly hard, but not in the ways I anticipated. I work ~40 hours/week, with quite a bit of flexibility in my schedule (eg., I can leave at 3 pm when necessary and then do some work after my child goes to bed). We have on-site daycare. I have ample sick leave. It’s hard for me to imagine my employer or boss being more supportive of working parents, except maybe with respect to longer maternity leaves (we have 6 weeks of paid parental leave, which can be combined with 6-8 weeks of sick leave, plus vacation, so most people take 12-14 weeks fully paid…it’s definitely good for the US, but not as good as what my friends in law, consulting or tech get). My husband is a very equal parent, our child is a great sleeper, and we are in a very good daily routine, and I don’t feel exhausted or like I don’t have enough time for myself or any of that. I feel very lucky in that regard. My problem is just that, at the end of the day, I want to be a stay at home mom. I never anticipated that I would feel this way, but I do. I didn’t even want kids until I met my husband in my mid-20s and made my husband wait until we were in our 30s to TTC because I was really enjoying DINK life, so this feeling really came out of the deepest, darkest blue. Some might argue that I’m internalizing messages about what society thinks I should do, but I really don’t think so. My mom and MIL worked, my husband had always expected we would be a two working parent family (and puts his money where his mouth is as far as doing his part at home to make that happen) and 100% of my close friends work. I feel like, in my circles at least, being a working mom is far more expected and socially acceptable than staying home. And yet, I still feel this way and am completely miserable every day I have to say goodbye to my child and go to work. I just think it’s impossible to know how motherhood is going to affect your feelings toward your career until you’re actually a mother.
Go for it
Totally get it! Been there for sure. I did a hard edit at work & went part time (3) days a week for years (several of them as a single parent) and am 100% sure of my choice to do so. I maintained part time for financial reasons & would have done a full time out if the #s worked for my family. YMMV.
I loved my life and really wanted to be in that chapter in a meaningful (to me) way.
Ps, when I returned to full time it had zero impact on my ability to obtain a fully compensated professional role.
You do you, and trust yourself however you decide to go.
Sarah
I’m nearing the end of a PhD and headed out of academia, so that of course colors the experience I’ve had. For me, the message has been less “kids OR career” and more “kids AND career, and we expect you to excel at both!”, at least from the younger moms I see around me (assistant profs and the like). My grandfather once joked that this education was all going to be a waste if I drop out of the workforce when I have kids, and I did not appreciate that one bit.
I’m hoping to be in a position where DH and I can both lean out by the time we’re going for kids, but realistically it’s not going to be so easy. We’ve got our first jobs lined up (he’s PhD too), and while mine has a generous family/parental leave policy that encompasses elder care, adoption, paternity leave, etc. in addition to a great maternity leave, his…only gives significant time off for pregnant people. If you’re a dad, adopting, or otherwise not literally giving birth, you’re SOL — you get like 5 days or something, I don’t remember. When the attitude is “leave is about recovering from a medical procedure (i.e. birth)” rather than “leave is about everyone adjusting to the new kid you just brought into your house”, it’s really hard to imagine doing anything *but* put your career on the back burner for a bit. Someone’s gotta take care of that kid, we’re not going to be living near family, and daycares don’t usually accept them until they’re a few months old!
Anon
Daycares usually accept kids around 6 weeks old, and you’re going to want a minimum of 6 weeks to recover from birth. I agree that workplaces should give parental leave to everyone who is becoming a parent, but staying home for 6-12 weeks to recover from birth is hardly putting your career on the back burner, especially since your job gives you paid leave for that purpose.
Hmm
Where are you that you’re able to assume a job gives paid leave for that purpose? Other than my friends in biglaw, precious few of my friends had any paid maternity leave at all. Just had to scrape together sick leave and vacation for a year before saving enough to have a baby.
Anon
She said it did! I didn’t say everyone’s job does, I said OP’s job does because she said it does.
anon
So, this is company & state specific. My husband’s old company gave 4 weeks of bonding fully paid (big law) + you could do 6 weeks paid through the state of partial bonding. In CA, at least at least at all the companies we’ve worked for, it is accepted to take this time off and it doesn’t seem to have a large career impact. We changed states and were ttc so my husband saved up all his vacation over a few yrs and took off 4 weeks with kid #2. It wasn’t subsidized, but it was vacation he earned and didn’t feel bad taking. TG, I don’t think I could do it without him and honestly, I think it’s important for starting off parenthood on equal-ish footing. In CA, moms get an add’l 6-8 weeks of paid disability (but make no mistake, birth is a difficult process, and you need the recovery time).
Sara
I grew up with my mother telling me that you couldn’t be a good mother and pursue a fulfilling, full-time career. I got a Master’s degree, which she was generally supportive of, but she still thought I should give it up when I became a mother. She thought that me working full-time when I could afford to stay at home with my son was tantamount to child abuse and threatened to call DHS (there are obviously other issues at play here). I was then strongly encouraged to not have another child since I was clearly a “career woman.”
I do have two children now and have a very fulfilling career in senior administration at a large public university. I do feel like I have to have especially good attendance to show that I am focused on my work, although my manager is also a younger working mom so she is very understanding. My children do miss out on some activities. My husband often has evening meetings and I have a long commute, so rushing one child to soccer practice at 5 and having the other one across town at 5:15 for something else just doesn’t work. Honestly? They’ll live.
I love my career and I love my children and I can’t imagine doing this any other way.
anon
I’m 34 w/ 2 kids. I have gone back and forth about having kids for many years and would have been been happy either way (although now that I have them, I can’t imagine my life any other way).
My mom (professor) & my mil (lawyer) are both professionals that slowed down their careers while we were young- both of them lost their father’s at young ages, so I think it was drilled into me (& my sil’s) that even if you find the perfect husband and life, it’s important to have an independent source of income. I went to law school, graduated during the recession and had some difficulty finding my professional footing. By 28 I had finally gotten to a good place and that’s when my husband & I started trying for kid #1. I accessed by career and realized I couldn’t keep up the pace and have a kid (I wasn’t taking care of myself well at the time, no less adding another person into the equation). So, I took active steps to try for a new role that would be less intense (in my job that meant giving up managing people). That definitely opened up a new world of possibilities- I was lucky to find a roll making more that was flexible and more in line with my schooling; but not managing people, definitely has a glass ceiling and I won’t be seeing the c-suite anytime soon.
There are roles I have been approached about, or have been curious about, that I haven’t pursued because I am prioritizing family time. And I have seen male childless co-workers leap around me in terms of success and pay. For some reason a little less so for my childless gf’s.
I plan to coast for the next few years, then ramp things up once my kids are more self-sufficient. FWIW, my husband has made similar choices (moving from big law to gov).
My best advice for others, if you want kids, is to choose a job where there is a possibility of success having both (look around at the other parents -both men & women- in that field), then work as hard as you can and get as high as you can, before having kids… so that you have a greater likelihood of being able to make the rules. Also, I wouldn’t have the success I have currently as a working mom w/out my husband- he’s 100% behind me in whatever I do and does some amount of solo-parenting when I have to travel for work (w/out ever ever complaining).
anon
Adding- being a sahm mom is not my thing, mostly because it means my husband would have to move into a job where he works longer hours. I just want to spend all my time with him, so having more free time with him having less is a very unattractive scenario (I love my kids- but I NEED them to be in daycare some amount, I’m just not meant to be w/ kids -even though I love dearly- 24/7).
Anon
My problem is not with working moms or SAHMs. My problem is listening to moms do nothing, but complain. It makes me not want to have kids. I completely understand that it is hard, but I’d love to hear some of the joys of having kids and not just how tired they are. They make it sound completely miserable and it makes me think I’m better off spending my time and money traveling, going to great restaurants, and doing whatever I want every night. My other frustration is if working moms get benefits that others don’t such as not permitting working from home, but parents can work from home when their kid is sick. If you allow one thing, allow it for everyone. Also, if a working parent has to spend more time taking care of kids, that’s fine but the career advancements should be available to those who get the job done, whether that’s a working parent or a working single person. There’s a lot of bias against single women like we can do the grunt work without the acknowledgement or our personal life isn’t as important because we are going out to dinner with friends instead of taking care of kids. My dinners, dates, and events are important to me. Personal life is personal life whatever that means to each person.
Anon
Take it up with your employer then. Or maybe your skills are not so special that they need to accommodate WFH in order to retain you? Career advancements are (generally) going to the most talented people. These people may include working parents who manage to produce good quality work and spend more time taking care of their kids. My career sky rocketed after kids because I became more efficient. It really has nothing to do with time – it was productivity.
Mother don’t have time to paint a rosy picture for you. If you don’t want to have kids, then don’t.
Anon
+1. Workplaces are essentially small economies. Absent a very public-facing role where there might be PR reasons for retaining an under-performing women, if they’re offering a working mom these perks and not offering them to other people, it’s because they’ve made a determination that she’s a better performer than other people and it’s worth offering her these things to retain her.
I also think there’s a big component of asking for what you need – parents are probably more likely to ask for a flex schedule but it doesn’t mean that if another top-performing employee asks for it, they won’t get it. Speak up! Don’t say “I have a date” just say you have an appointment and are unavailable to stay past 5 pm that day or whatever. Just go ahead and request a long vacation the same way the parents do. Your employer will generally only give you (parents and non-parents alike) as much of a personal life as you demand.
Anon
+1 THIS!
Anon
I think this negativity you are referring to is the 180 from what I heard about parenting growing up from my grandparents. All this baby powder, roses, sparkles, and unicorns, with siblings caring for one another and never a fight in sight. I think women are reacting against this idealistic view that was implanted in women for generations and you now hear many (too many?) realities of being a parent. But like anything in life it’s a balance act. The days that I’ve gotten enough sleep I’m overjoyed to see my daughter. I love watching her figure out and see wonder is seemingly mundane things. She recreates her life in toys and it’s amazing (sometimes a little disturbing) to see our household through her eyes. She’s strong willed and has this intense need to do things on her own. If I put on her shoe, she will take it off and put it on herself. I’m proud of this, and me, and my husband, and even our dog, for making her this little person who has an intense will and drive. And then there are days I didn’t get enough sleep and I’m failing to notice how amazing it all is. I think it’s so important to be happy with the rest of your life to be able to enjoy your child. Because their accomplishments are “small” in comparison to multimillion dollar deals. And it’s hard to have the energy to appreciate this greatness and gentleness if you’re already drained. From a purely evolutionary perspective I’m also so sad that all these amazing, driven women won’t have kids. How can we develop as a species when the people with the most resources aren’t reproducing?
Anon
See below at Anon2 where her boss says oh I can’t give you a raise because your colleagues have families to raise or the poster who got sucked into handling things at inconvenient hours because she doesn’t have kids. I’m working from home tomorrow because my boss knows I’m a star on my team. I basically get what I want because I’m worth retaining. My comment wasn’t personal about my experience, moreso it was a comment about the problems others have faced. Again, read the other comments on this page. Good for you that you don’t notice how your single colleagues pick up your slack. I have no sympathy for complaining working parents. You made the decision to be exhausted! All I ask is that you stop complaining and making it sound so terrible. If it’s that bad, why the heck did you have kids!?! I guess it really is that terrible and I’ll just enjoy my life without them! Your snarky responses were not necessary. I hope you’re not truly this miserable of a person.
Anon
Nobody asked for your sympathy, and seriously nobody cares what you think of motherhood.
Anon
I’m not sure who you’re responding to, but I’m the Anon at 3:28 and I can assure you I have no regrets about having children, it’s the most wonderful thing I’ve ever done by far. I’ve never been someone who talks about my personal life at work a lot, so my co-workers don’t hear much about my kids period, but to the extent they do it’s the joyful stuff (birthday parties, milestones). Some people are just joyful and some people are really negative all the time, and I don’t think your outlook on life or how much you whine is particularly correlated to your parental status. Ironically, from your comment, you sound like the latter type.
Anon
No, I’m just tired of hearing negative people complain about something that I always assumed would be joyful. Their complaints and inability to “paint a rosey picture for me” make me only see the negative aspects of having kids. That’s all they seem to talk about. Complaining about going home to the second shift, not getting sleep, etc. I wish people would talk more about the joys of parenthood as you described. When all you hear are the negatives, it makes it seem like it’s not worth doing.
Anon
This strikes me as so immature and entitled. You want mothers to put on a happy face to convince you that parenting is awesome? Seriously, grow up.
Anonattorney
There is no way that a person without kids can fully understand the joys of parenthood. You just can’t. It’s like describing falling in love to someone who’s never been in love before. People do it over and over again (have kids) because it’s awesome. They complain about the problems associated with it because it’s an experience that a lot of people share, and commiserating about the difficulties of a shared experience bond people together.
anon
Notice she said *men with families* were offered more money, the women probably got screwed too, in so many ways, as we often do.
As for the good moments of parenting- there are so many, often they are difficult to describe and I never want to feel like I’m bragging. In my mind, it’s obvious that all you have to do is look at my daughter to know that she is a sparkling bit of joy in my life… but the day to day can be tiring and people love to complain more than highlight happiness.
Anon
Please brag! I was never against having children until my friends and family started complaining about being parents. I would so love to hear the positives. Also, it’s so not obvious. When I’m in public and see a child, they often have a fit in Target or scream, cry, and basically act like obnoxious people.
Anon
Well toddlers can’t really regulate their emotions or make their bodies do what they want to do, so, yes, they scream and cry a lot. It’s developmentally normal, we were all toddlers once and it doesn’t make them “obnoxious people.” Have some empathy. Honestly, I love motherhood completely but one of the (few) things I don’t love about it is judgment from people like you when she’s behaving appropriately for a 3 year old (which she is) but not appropriately for an adult.
ket
I gotta say, slight disagree with my companion poster here (and I’m writing this with a smirk on my face) — my almost-2-year-old is a little obnoxious person. She is adorable, and hilarious, and she bosses me around about the shoes I wear (she insisted I wear sneakers today instead of leather), and she yells “No!” a lot (I’m taking lessons from her on setting boundaries), and she can’t express that she’s hungry very well so she just has a total sh*t fit instead, and she has not learned inside voices yet so she yells BEEP BEEP at the bus when it goes by, and she caws very loudly at the crows and barks at the dogs unless a dog is nice and comes close enough for her to pet it, in which case she hides. She insists on reading all her picture books upside down and very fast, and then gets to the end & slams them shut and yells BUUUK! When she wakes up at 4:30 am, she goes back to sleep… but I stay up. I love to see her smiling face in the morning and I love time when I do not need to be a caregiver. So. Am I complaining, or not? This is a Rorschach test for you.
KS IT Chick
I’m 47. I don’t have kids, but I know that it has affected my career. Particularly lately, since I work with a group of women who all have kids (ages ranging from elementary school through adults with their own children). I don’t have a common frame of reference with them. I tend to think bigger picture then they do anyway, and we end up at cross purposes when they are talking about organizational decisions and how it impacts them and their families, and I’m thinking about how the decisions affect our community. I’m the one who has to be more careful about when I schedule vacations, because I’m the coverage that backstops everyone else. I’m taking off a long weekend, and you’d think that the world is going to end, because they will all actually have to monitor their email for issues. We’re a hospital, it’s a 24/7/365 business. Dealing with issues in the off hours is part of the job. Not dealing with issues could lead to permanent consequences for a patient.
My problems are never as important as theirs. Our schedule of new service roll-outs and system upgrades are planned around their school schedules, so that those with younger kids don’t have to come in at the odd hours that IT generally requires. If someone has to be here to manage a planned downtime, it will be me. I’m forever hitting the top end of my PTO accrual allowance, because it is so hard to take a long vacation with everyone else getting priority.
Anon
All of this!!! My personal life, even if it is a date, is important too. My life whatever that is, is important! However, I purposely try to take vacations when schools are in session. I want to decrease the likelihood of a screaming child on a plane. Also, flight and hotel rates are cheaper! I do love not being limited by school breaks!
anon
Sorry this seems like bad management. You guys should create a rotating ‘on call schedule’, that’s what my team does… we each have to do a certain amount of weeks a year, whatever our life circumstances- for those weeks we work 24/7. The rest of the time, we work our normal schedule. If something comes up, we find coverage by trading.
Also, is your team all women? Discussion about the men seems lacking.
Anon
“because it is so hard to take a long vacation with everyone else getting priority.”
That’s the problem right there. I’m not sure how big your department is, but people shouldn’t be getting “priority” for every single vacation they want to schedule throughout the year. Everyone should start off by picking, say, one week a year that is most important to them, and then other vacations and system upgrades can be scheduled around that.
Being a parent is not a license to make everyone else dance to your tune.
Anon
This isn’t a parent problem this is a management problem. You need to speak up and ask for what you want. I used to think that parents were the only ones who got perks. Then I asked for them and realized they were the ones asking for them. Ask and if they don’t give them then find another job. You should not always be the one working undesirable shifts. Most places have some sort of rotation system so everyone gets some good days off and has to work some undesirable times. Yes there are places where single people are blantantly denied perks but in my experience it’s just that parents are more willing to ask for them.
Anon
Chiming in to say I have this problem too in Biglaw. I’m left twisting myself into a pretzel because my plans are seen as more flexible than those with kids. And to some extent they are. But I’m tired of always always being the one to cover.
Anon
Whoa. I work in hospital IT as well and NO WAY is priority given to parents to not take call. Everyone (who is qualified) takes a shift. If there is an issue, they can swap with another employee (with management’s approval). I have kids and guess what? I have to be on-site at 3 am Sunday morning for a 12-hour shift. Yours is definitely a management issue.
M
I’m 34, no kids, and recently a non-equity partner at a boutique law firm. I think about this issue ALL the time. I may not be “mommy material,” but my husband would be the greatest dad of all time. Likely to provide comfort, he chimes in that – just because he would be good at it, does not mean we should actually be parents. As a non-equity partner, here is a time for me to “lean in” really hard and create a space for myself at my firm. I love so many aspects of my life – we travel, support the arts, dine out regularly, etc. We just aren’t “there” yet, and we might not ever be. Because so many of my contemporaries have young children, I am actually finding it really difficult to network. Many other women attorneys my age want to talk about their children, and I can only fain interest for so long (yet another telling sign that motherhood may not be in my future). I definitely feel like other parents with young children resent my “extra” time (there have been plenty of comments), but life is about prioritizing what you can and handling other unexpected issues that come your way. I know parenthood requires incredible sacrifice, but I do not appreciate being put down for my choosing not to go that route (at least yet).
Anonymous
I’m in a different (earlier) place in my life/career than you but this resonates with me so much. My FH would be an incredible father, I am just “not good” with kids — I try with my friends kids, I really do, and I love them but… not being “mommy material” sounds like the perfect description to me. Not that I couldn’t do it, but maybe that I shouldn’t.
M
I totally get it. We have been having this conversation for a while. We could absolutely be parents. We are both educated attorneys and financially secure. We haven’t wanted to make the sacrifices that parenthood requires yet. I have been really surprised by how judgmental people still are about our deciding not to be parents (even in 2019!). I’ve heard it all – assumptions that one of us has fertility issues (we don’t, to my knowledge), I must have loads of “free” time (I am a non-equity partner and also on the board of an arts non-profit so I don’t), I am being “selfish” (I think I am being responsible, but okay, call me selfish), etc. I love that when a case settles or there is some other unexpected gap in my work schedule, we can get away for a weekend in Los Angeles or New Orleans. Just not ready to trade that for parenthood yet . . .
kt
I get pretty bored of talking about kids, and I have one. She’ll be fine.
M
It is a worse problem than “kid talk” being boring. At least in the legal profession in my area, there is a real divide between women attorneys with kids and women attorneys without kids that makes networking and building a book of business more difficult than I anticipated as a woman attorney without kids.
anon
I’m 29 and starting to think in concrete terms about when we’ll start TTC. Right now it feels like we’ve got everything going for us: decently paying jobs with a reasonable level of security, my mom is an hour away (a nice change after I lived halfway across the country for several years) and we have other family nearby.
But. I just started a part-time grad program in January, and I’m starting to look at exciting career opportunities that could involve relocating and/or taking a pay cut as I switch careers. I don’t think I’m being told I have to choose between career and kids, I actually think the pressure comes from having a two-career household. Where I need to be to level up my career isn’t really where my husband needs to be to level up his, so adding a kid (which we both want!) to the mix feels very hard right now.
anon
I’m 49, graduated, moved two and a half hours away from family, married, built a great career and have a daughter. If I could offer one bit of advise, stay as geographically close to your family as possible. Build a career near home. Careers are not worth being even two hours away from your family, especially if you being having kids.
Anon2
I don’t have children, by choice. I knew when I was young that it wasn’t a life goal for me and even though so many people told me I’d eventually change my mind, I never did. In my 20s, being childless meant I was often expected to work late when the people with kids left early for the daycare run. I was also once told by my (male) boss that he was sorry he couldn’t give me a bigger raise, but that “I’ve got guys on this team with wives and kids to support and they need the money more than you do.” I pushed back hard on that and wound up with a bigger raise, but man, I was bitter.
Other than that, nothing really stood out to me until I got married in my mid-30s. Every time I would stop by my (male) boss’s office for an unscheduled meeting or question, he would get what I mentally referred to as “the look.” He would get a little smirk on his face as if to say, “Here we go, she’s going to tell me she’s pregnant.” The “look” always went away immediately after I launched into my non-pregnancy topic of conversation. This same boss also once made a comment to me in a VERY unguarded moment that, “The problem with hiring all these women is that they’re going to want to have babies and never come back to work, and then we’ve wasted all that time and money on training them for nothing.”
I’ve also had numerous (male) coworkers make comments like, “You’ll see what I mean when you have kids,” or “You’ll feel differently when you have kids.” I get it, most people wind up having kids so they just assumed I’d follow suit. And I’m very thankful that the stigma I felt when I was younger about my choice not to have children seems to be going away in our society. But still.
Now in my mid-40s and having been married for 9 years, the “look” and comments have pretty much gone away. I think by this time people have figured that I’m either not planning to have kids, or they wonder whether I have fertility issues, but either way they’re just not going to bring that subject up. So, yay? Honestly, it’s kind of a relief at this point.
Anonymous
In college I had an internship and my (male) boss would occasionally go on rants about how “it’s not legal to not hire young women, but every hiring manager thinks about it because you know they’re going to get married and pregnant and leave” and “Really, women should stay home with kids. It’s what God intended” and “[employee] is just so wrapped up in planning her wedding/getting ready to give birth that her work quality is terrible” (this was rarely accurate and was never an observation he made about male employees).
At my first full-time job, I was newly married and coworkers would ask all sorts of stereotype-based questions like “What are you cooking [husband] for dinner tonight?” or “Any news?” (plus lots of eyebrow motions so I would know they were asking about pregnancy). One time I had to leave work because I was sick and my (make) supervisor pulled me aside and was like “I ask everyone this, even my wife [who’s in her late 60s]. Are you pregnant?” I was so mad, because my sister had just had a miscarriage and I was shocked that this guy would ask any woman, let alone a subordinate, if she was pregnant. For all he knew I could be miscarrying a wanted pregnancy right then and there! But I was feeling pretty sick so I just went with the path of least resistance and told him no instead of confronting him.
Anon
I’m mid 20s and single so this is still far in the future for me.
That being said, I work in a child unfriendly career (regardless of if you’re a man or a woman). I work in humanitarian aid, so it involves traveling overseas for weeks/months at a time and long hours when not overseas. It is also a field that pays enough to have kids, etc but not so much that your partner can stay at home/have a full time nanny etc.
Of course, most people I know in this field are single or aren’t finding someone and settling down until later in life so for many people kids aren’t really an option
Veronica Mars
For me, the biggest thing informing my perceptions of motherhood and having a career is my faith. While the assumption might be that Christian = stay-at-home, homeschooling mom, I don’t really find that to be true. I think my church and the community value a working mother and don’t disparage or discourage a woman from returning to work after having children. There’s a definite idea that women can and should work outside the home if they feel it’s best for their families and themselves. However, having said that, I think the attitude is more so that men should be the provider and accommodate the choice that his wife makes, either way. So it is a very gender-based concept of achieving familial unity. For me and my husband, on a personal level, I’m not sure what I’ll want to do. My husband would be supportive either way. We both grew up with SAHMs, so he understands how hard of a job it is. I will have to wait and see how I feel after having the baby. In terms of “having it all,” I think it’s accomplishable with lots of help and outsourcing. Hell yes I can have a kick-ass career and a loving family, and I think what bridges the gap is having a lot of help (cleaning service, lawn service, nannies, family help). For us, with our current finances we could afford it. It is also biblically-based to have a household staff, so there’s nothing unusual about that. I see inspiration in a Proverbs 32 woman–a smart, accomplished woman with a job and adoring husband/kids. We’ll see how it turns out for us.
Anononon
It’s so nice to see someone with this approach on here. I am the same way. Proverbs 31 is about a kick-bottom woman!
Anonymous
I am really glad that you’re in a supportive Christian community. My parents are religious and pretty extreme about it, and they take the “man as provider” idea a lot farther than is healthy. My husband and I married when he still had a year of school left and I’m in a well-paying industry, so I have always been the breadwinner. I love working and don’t ever want to be a SAHM, but my parents refuse to even acknowledge that I have a career because they see being a SAHM as the only viable path for married women. They always ask about my husband’s job when we talk (even when he was just a part time retail employee that first year), but will only refer to my career as “your thing” and ask as an afterthought. When we were both laid off last summer, they made a big fuss about how we “must really be hurting with [husband] out of a job” even though my salary was 3x his.
Anyway, sorry for the rant. My experience of religious communities has been quite negative and hostile to working women and especially working mothers/women who don’t have children, so I am glad that you have a community that supports you.
MJ
Ever? Sad, but yes. Every d*mn day, since Day 1. Yes, when I was a baby investment banker and there were no senior women. Yes, when I worked at a V2 law firm and only 2 female partners had kids. Yes, when I continued in biglaw. And now, yes, when I am the only attorney at a unicorn and every day is nuts.
JP
I’m about to turn 38, and am child-free by choice. I have been incredibly fortunate to have the support of my friends and family, and have never felt pressure to have kids. I will say, when I was younger, I always assumed I’d have kids once I got married, but I now realize it’s because of the cultural expectation that marriage = kids.
When I met my (now) husband, he was upfront from the beginning of our relationship that he had no interest in kids. I talked to my mom, told her I was pretty sure I was also in the “no kids” camp, and asked her whether grandkids were something she could live without. She said she could not think of anything more selfish than to expect me to have a child just so she could be a grandparent. I think that her support really gave me permission to admit that kids were not in my future plans. Surprisingly, my husband faced considerably more pushback from his family, and much more pressure to change his mind.
The only impact my decision has had on my career was that it has given me more freedom and flexibility. Because I didn’t have children, I was able to move to a new city, go back to school, and take lower-paying positions since we had enough to survive on my husband’s income. We weren’t having to consider school districts or child-care or other related expenses. It also allowed me to try for a job in a completely new area without fear of what failure could mean for our family.
Although there are times that I’ve provided coverage, support, and additional hours due to colleagues being out for child-related reasons, those were times that I was able to demonstrate my willingness to step in when needed, handle increased workloads and time-pressures, and maintain work quality. I view it as a long-term benefit for some short-term stress.
Anon
Your mom is amazing! I wish more parents were as supportive. I totally agree the pressure for grandchildren is incredibly selfish and maddening. I have children now but will forever resent my MIL for these types of comments early in our marriage
anon
For sure. I started out on the academic track (hard science), and people talked about it constantly, in part because PhD/post-doc takes such a long time in that field. When I was in undergrad, my mentor was a woman and we had many female graduate students, and it was top of everyone’s mind. I switched to law pretty quickly, and I was surprised to hear that everyone had similar concerns. It made me realize that it’s more of a “professionals” issue than a “insert career path here” issue.
My mother and my MIL both worked, and took the pedal off the gas a little to raise their families, but not to any great extent. My mother worked at a pharmaceutical company and went into management rather than technical, but worked full time my entire life. My MIL left law firm life in the 80s to go in-house when her kids were young (and also to get her MBA).
I desperately wanted kids, and so we started trying as soon as I passed the bar exam. My attitude was that I could find a different career, but I had a limited amount of time to have kids, and once I started, I wanted them to be close in age. I’m really glad that I did, although I think I am very lucky that I ended up where I am now. One really helpful factor was that one of my female partners had several kids, and although she took a different path, she was constantly commiserating with me and acknowledging my path as a different but perfectly valid one. I have basically only ever had kids in my career, so I can’t really say how it’s impacted me, but things have definitely gotten easier as I have more flexibility in my schedule and more resources to outsource the things I don’t want to do. Also, I was very junior when I started having kids, which meant that my kids were older and somewhat more self-sufficient when I made partner, which offers me a great deal more flexibility. There’s sort of a trend for women in my firm (many firms?) to make partner and then start having kids, and I’m glad I’m done with that stage.
JenJen
I thought I wanted 2 children, but due to how my life unfolded, I have one child who is now a teen. Her dad and I divorced when she was quite young. I went back to work full-time when we separated, and I was limited in what jobs I would consider because I wasn’t willing to travel x weeks per month. I wanted to give my child stability particularly in the rocky time after the separation. Her dad has visitation, but he travels for work, and he also has always assumed I will be there if he can’t do his weekend, etc. So, yes, having a child has been a great joy, AND it impacted the type of job I was willing to consider. I work in fundraising/development. Now that she is older, I have more flexibility.
CR
Once I hit management level, the tension between being expected to work like you aren’t a mom and mother like you don’t work hit me hard. I have zero doubts that I would be better at my job if I were child-free and a better mother if I worked half as many hours. Before I made it to the top, feeling I was successful at working motherhood was hard but achievable. Now, I never have that feeling. I have worked hard for both my career accomplishments and to become a parent, and it’s frustrating and sad that, no, I can’t have it all.
The original Scarlett
In a nutshell, I always saw it as having to choose. Both parenthood and careers are big investments of time. I didn’t want to do both because there wouldn’t be any time left over for me. A career was the most interesting choice for me, so I picked that. I’m sure someone has both figured out, but that seemed to be the exception not the rule.
Anonatl
Husband and I are not parents yet so I can’t speak to what will actually happen, but I think a lot of our decisions come down to money and who feels more fulfilled by their work (there is an interesting study correlating how women derive value in their career and whether or not they return after kids that is interesting btw). I love my job. He hates his. I work from home full time and make more money. The current plan is he goes “part time contractor” with his company when our kids are young (under 4) and works as much or as little as he has time for. This is super idealistic of course and since our kid isn’t here yet, I have no idea what reality will be. I have concerns that I will want to be the one with them all the time or have major resentment that he’s experiencing all these things with them while I work.. or even worse that I’m working full time and he still doesn’t pull his weight in chores or emotional labor in the house which is something we discuss frequently now.
I will say on the topic of feedback from women in my progressional life is very much a mixed bag. They are all extremely well educated women, but with a large age gap. Those in their 30s and 40s consistently say you can make it work. The older women have this much more judgemental tone when they talk about returning to work right after kids. As if returning to work and my husband being on dad duty is somehow going to irreparably damage my kid.
I think at the end of the day we all make sacrifices in some area of our lives by prioritizing some things over others. Kids and parenthood are the same. You choose to be a SAHM and risk the ability to return to the workforce or financially security. You choose
Or maybe have to to work and miss out on moments in your kid’s life.
I am very much looking forward to becoming a mother this next year. I was raised by two working parents, and I know it is possible. There is still a continuous societal pressure regardless of which parenting decision you make though. Lets be honest though, someone’s always going to judge you about something so just do what’s best for you and your family.
Notero
This is something I’m really struggling with. I had my older kids very young. I always worked full time and managed to put myself through college while doing so. Fast forward 10 years later. My kids are older, I’ve excelled in my career and then I get pregnant at 41. I’m now 45 with a 3 1/2 year old with ASD. I feel like I never stop, and it’s endless trying to balance everything out. I admit that I’m not cut out to be a SAHM, but I’d take a pay cut or work part time in a heartbeat.
Elle
I’m 30 years old, 5 1/2 months pregnant, and in a management role in a high cost of living city on the East Coast. Also graduating with my part-time MBA next month . We’ve been married almost 3 years and had been pushing it off until we were more financially comfortable and my MBA was winding down. I thankfully switched from a male-dominated team where all leaders had SAHM wives and had no idea of what I would be going through (think passive aggressive comments about their wives). My husband and I make essentially the same amount of money and me not working has never been a consideration. I was raised by two hard working parents that had physical jobs and although my Mom wasn’t around much, we all turned out okay! I always envisioned myself as a career woman and eventually a mother, but now that I feel this little one in side me I am genuinely terrified of what my life will be like in a few months.
I pursued a competitive undergraduate degree and an MBA to move up as a woman in leadership and do not want to sacrifice my career, but at the same time don’t want to miss out on things with my child(ren). We currently live in the city, but due to cost of day care (>$3,000/month) we are moving closer to my in-laws for help. I will be commuting 60-90 minutes each way to my job. It’s a really hard predicament. I just am thankful for a decent enough (but not that great) maternity leave and the ability to work from home one day a week to minimize my commuting. My husband still thinks 3 kids is a reality, but in 2019 financially I don’t understand how people do it so that is something we’ll have to consider down the road.
ning
I’m finishing a rotational program at a large corporation this year. Initiailly, with the prospect of having to change jobs and move (in my case, cross-country) every.single.year. and only having 1 year to make an impact in each job, I thought I had to put off having children, especially since my husband stayed behind in our original city until my final rotation to minimize the work impact on him. During my time at the company, 2 of my female rotation program colleagues became pregnant, and kind of approached it with a “Yeah, what?” attitude. Not that they intended to lean out, either. One since returned to work and taken a very visible leadership role in an employee organization.
So that all made me wonder: am I over-thinking the whole thing?
I haven’t learned anything. Moving into my first post-rotational program role right now and am trying to figure out how to time a pregnancy to give birth in non-busy seasons.
anon
Posting late, but I do think you’re overthinking it. You can’t really time your pregnancy. At some point, if you want kids, you just have to have them. I found that owning the decision really helped me navigate a lot of issues.
Anonymous
Every damn day.
Anon
41 year old working mom here with 2 kids (11 and 7). My observations over the years:
1. There will be career opportunities that are incompatible with your role as a parent. I was offered a very lucrative position last year that would have required a ton of travel (basically spending M-Th away from home every week). I had to walk away from it, because my husband travels frequently for his work (3-4 trips a month) and someone has to be home with the kids!
2. No one will ever GIVE you work/life “balance”. You have to TAKE it. I set boundaries and expectations with my team. I do not work between the hours of 5:30 and 8:00. I sometimes work from home when I have a sick kid. I may have a kid in tow with me at a meeting or hanging in my office.
3. Similarly, do not ask. Tell. My email yesterday to my boss was “Kid has a stomach bug. I am working from home while he watches TV. Will Skype in for all my meetings and deliver on deadlines. Call or text if you need me.”
4. Life with kids is not designed for two parents who work outside the home. There are volunteer opportunities and PTA meetings and events that happen in the middle of the day. Make it clear to your kids that you want to be there but can’t make all of them. Make friends with the parents who can – they can pass on a sweet reminder to your child, send you photos of the field trip, and fill you in on the happenings at the meeting.
5. Don’t be the room parent. There are other parents who have the time and flexibility to do this. You don’t. Always sign up to send in the paper plates or the napkins. Sign up for that as soon as you can.
6. It’s hard when your kids are small and physically need you. It’s hard when they get older and have more stuff and want you. Don’t let anyone tell you you’re letting someone else “raise” them. You’re doing the hard stuff and outsourcing what you can.
7. The “balance” is a fallacy – think of it as a blend. Life and work will spill over. I have texted teachers and sitters while in important meetings. I have answered client calls at the ball field.
8. Don’t lie. If I have a kid issue come up, I am clear that is what I am dealing with. I see people all the time – mainly men – say things like “Leaving early for a client meeting” when they’re ducking out to make the school play. It drives me crazy. Honesty shows younger people how it’s done.
9. Build your village and ask for help. It gets easier when your kids are in school and meet other parents. My village has taken my kids to school, picked them up from practice, and watched them on snow days.
10. Who cares if you lean out? Do what you need to do to make it through the demanding times. I am dealing with a mental health issue with my older son right now and my foot is nowhere near the pedal. I get stuff done – just not looking for a promotion or more work right now. Lean back in when you’re ready.
11. Lean out but don’t drop out! My friend group is about 50/50 working moms and SAHMs so I see lots of perspectives. My friends who are SAHMs, now that their kids are older, are nearly all universally struggling with purpose. Many said “I’ll go back to work when the kids are in school” and now that their youngest are in school, they have 10-15 years of no work experience (other than the godforsaken MLM role or maybe some part-time retail work). This is also the age when marriages are falling apart (mine included) and unless you live in a community property state, dissolution of marital assets usually doesn’t favor a SAHM unless they worked to put their spouses through school. I have friends who have ended up with a million-dollar home but no income to cover the insurance and property taxes on it.
The original Scarlett
Your advice is spot-on.
Manageress
Oh wow. This is really good.
Housecounsel
Well said!
Tdotmom
There are definitely choices you have to make. I started in biglaw for articling and as a junior associate. I went in-house and took a pay cut when I got married because I didn’t think it would be fair to my husband and our marriage if I worked those crazy, unpredictable law firm hours. Then I went to government and took another pay cut when I had my kids. My government job allows me to have my career and be there for my kids. But I’m definitely the least successful out of all my articling friends. But it was my choice and the only way for me to manage work and family life. I remember that at the law firm, the female associates and partners with kids all had 3 nannies: a day nanny, a night nanny and a weekend nanny. That’s not what I wanted for my kids. But I am hoping to have a more ambitious job one day when my kids are older…
flipflop
The whole question is speaking from a sexist construct. Would a man ever be asked if he felt he needed to choose between a career and a kid? No. Why are we still living in the 1950s with these silly questions? If you want to have a career and a kid make sure your spouse/partner is wiling to shoulder half the responsibilities so you can make it work. If the answer is no, then why are you with this person anyway?
Sue Kim
I’m a 39 year old lawyer, a mom to a young child, the primary breadwinner and married to a husband who does not have a flexible job. We have no family nearby who can help out. Soon after I gave birth, my career took a big hit. I was laid off. It took several years to get back to the pre-kid career level. My partnership consideration has been delayed by several years because the senior management believes that I cannot handle the demands of work, motherhood, and partnership. In a way, they’re right. I cannot juggle motherhood and spend 12 hours at the office everyday. I have received poor performance review saying that I am not reliable or my actions impact others in a negative way when I had to miss work or leave early because my kid got sick a lot. If I don’t work for a law firm, we can’t make a living. I make 3 times more than my husband. But, my husband cannot afford not to work, because we really need that extra income. We need every penny we earn to barely make a living where we live. I am exhausted. I work 50 – 60 hours a week and I generate a significant amount of profit for the firm. I’m available by phone / online. Yes, I’m viewed as unreliable because my butt is not in the seat after 7 PM and I do come in late sometimes and have to leave early sometimes. My partnership keeps getting delayed. Several partners asked me if my husband is being supportive enough. My husband has a disability and can’t do a lot around the house, but I don’t advertise that to my coworkers and partners. My boss told me to try to get a full-time nanny which will be very helpful. I don’t think the 60-something year old bosses realize how expensive nannies are ($25/hour is the going rate where we live.). I am very good at what I do and I bring in $$$ for my firm. But, in order for me to do a kick ass job, I need flexibility without guilt. If I can leave work at 4:30 or 5 pm regularly, I’ll be so much less stressed. I end up getting back online to work after 9 pm on a regularly basis no matter what time I leave work. I often regret having a child. I love my child, but I often feel that I’m failing both at work and home. My kid often complains about the fact that I can’t pick up the kid or join for school events. No solution here. I feel stuck between a rock and a hard place.
anon
Oh I so can feel your stress through the computer! You are in a tough spot. I’m 49, have one tween-aged child, and I’m the primary breadwinner. I’ve been passed over for promotions due to being a mom. My archaic manager even told me that was the reason, lol (at a fortune 500 company too.)
Although I don’t know you, if I may, I’d like to give you some advise. First do not ever regret having your child. Your child watches/sees how hard you work. It’s hard to see the forest through the trees. It’s super hard to make time to discretely look for a new job that has a better work family balance, especially when you are emotionally, mentally, and sometimes physically drowning in the stressors that are your life circumstances. The number one priority is no regrets with your child. You have a few options to help you lower your stress. 1. If they’re messing with your HR reviews I’d start discretely looking for that new employer. I left that fortune 500 company after a 9.5 year stay. Hardest, scariest career decision I’ve ever made, but leaving it paid off immediately for my family and in the long run financially too. 2. Most companies have some kind of private employee relations hotline. You could call them and talk with them anonymously about how to ask for work family balance from you employer. Maybe your HR department could help too. 3. Forget about the partnership while your kid is young. Let that stressor go. Your kid won’t be young forever. Fact is, in America the women are expected to take care of the kids, bring in the money, and get passed over for partnerships/promotions at work. It happens every day across this great land. (Ironic that I also honestly believe women who live in America are the luckiest women in the world.) You will land that partnership when the time is right and the employer is right. 4. Lower the bar for yourself. You don’t have to be perfect. You are a working mom. Society needs our kids. They are the future tax payers. Society owes you a lower bar while you are raising your kid. Don’t forget that. So be okay with leaving at 5pm and stop checking emails at night. Let your house get messy. Where’ your mother in law? She should be helping you. Where’s your mom? She should be helping you. Let them help. Tell them to help. Let them do what they want in your house. You’re in survival mode. Take the help. Ask for the help. Thank them when they help and ask them back. Even if they are annoying. 5. Pray, pray, and then pray some more for guidance (and serenity) for you, your child, and your husband, and for your future employer to show up soon. No one said you have to be perfect. A long time ago there was one guy who was perfect, and look what the people did to him! Best of luck to you. You can do this. Just maybe not all at once ;)
anon
And one more thing. Ditch the employer guilt. You don’t owe them that. Being a mother carries enough guilt about all kinds of things related to your child. You don’t owe your employer any guilt. You’re wasting it on them, lol.