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Our daily workwear reports suggest one piece of work-appropriate attire in a range of prices.
A printed shirtdress is one of the easiest things to throw on when putting a whole outfit together is just too much to bear. The black-and-white butterfly print on this dress from Talbots gives us a touch of whimsy without veering into childish territory.
Wear it on its own or add a bright blazer if you’re feeling ambitious. (Personally, I will be struggling with the Daylight Saving Time change for at least two more weeks. I’m all about making my morning routine easier until then.)
The dress is $169 full price at Talbots — but is 25% off today — and comes in plus sizes 14–24, plus petite sizes 14–22, misses sizes 2–18, and petite sizes 0–16.
check sale!
Sales of note for 9.30.24
- Nordstrom – Beauty deals through September
- Ann Taylor – Extra 30% off sale
- Banana Republic Factory – 50% off everything + extra 20% off
- Boden – 15% off new styles
- Eloquii – Extra 50% off sale
- J.Crew – 50% off select styles
- J.Crew Factory – Up to 60% off everything + 50% off sale with code
- Lo & Sons – Warehouse sale, up to 70% off
- M.M.LaFleur – Save 25% sitewide
- Neiman Marcus – Friends & Family 25% off
- Rag & Bone – Friends & Family 25% off sitewide
- Spanx – Lots of workwear on sale, some up to 70% off
- Talbots – Fall Cyber Monday sale, 40% off sitewide and $5 shipping
- Target – Car-seat trade-in event through 9/28 — bring in an old car seat to get a 20% discount on other baby/toddler stuff.
- White House Black Market – 40% off select styles
Anon
Talbot’s actually has 40% off one item, with the code SPRING. 25% off the rest of your order.
Vicky Austin
yeah the widget seems to be updated periodically, not daily.
Coach Laura
Yes, 40% off is great buy. If this wasn’t only in black, I’d be buying it now.
Also, so happy that Talbots is again showing models in both regular and plus sizes – I bear more resemblance to the plus models (5’2″ and size 14-16) than I do to the misses models.
Anonymous
where do you see the 40% off code? not on the homepage.
Smokey
I don’t see it n the website either but the Spring promo code works for 40% off one item.
Anon
What closed toed shoes would you wear with this dress for work?
Any recommendations for a Mary Jane with a small heel that is comfortable with bunions?
Anon
The Barking Dogs blog is the best resource for shoes for problem feet. https://www.barkingdogshoes.com/category/best-shoes-for-bunions/
Anon
A black pointy toe flat, maybe.
Anonymous
This year – a loafer.
Anon
Great idea on the loafer. Any comfortable ones you recommend? Thanks!
Abby
I just bought the Sam Edelman Loraine loafers and they are very comfortable!
SFAttorney
Yes, I love them. Very comfortable for my feet too and they come is a variety of colors and finishes.
Anon
Those are really nice, thanks for the rec. Do you find them true to size?
pugsnbourbon
Oh those are cute, and on the SE website there are some fun colors on sale.
Anon
I wanted to love these but they did not work with my feet – guessing it was the bunion. Ugh!
Anon
Wow -what a great sale on the animal embossed leathers. Super cute.
Abby
I did find them true to size! I have wide-ish feet and am also pregnant, and they still fit well. Also I think they’re 20% off on shopbob today.
Anne-on
Boden is having a 25% off sale and I’ve always found their shoes very well made and relatively comfortable.
Cb
Thanks for everyone’s tired legs thoughts yesterday – I’ve got some things to chase up at the GP, but in the meantime, what are people’s favourite sneakers for a walking-heavy lifestyle?
It’s been icy so I’ve defaulted to duck boots, but the rest of the year, I tend to wear lowtop chucks or Merrell barefoot trail runners. Maybe something with a bit more bounce would help? I HATE really chunky shoes, but I’m willing to give something a try.
Anonymous
With those shoes, no wonder your feet and legs are tired! For winter I’d get some lightweight sneaker boots with good traction, and consider adding insoles if necessary. I have Sorels. For warm weather get some actual running shoes, fitted at a specialty running store. Not “barefoot” or minimalist shoes. Chucks are cute but they aren’t for walking.
Anon
Vionic- or anything else w arch support. You could also try Ryka (built for female feet) with an arch support inserted. Good luck!
anon
First, double check that the shoes you are wearing are big enough (see, my parent with a new lease on life by going up a size and a half in shoes. Second, both of the shoes you described have no arch support or cushion – it’s probably time to come over to the other side. Otherwise, not factoring ice or formality, I would check out the Brooks Glycerin. It’s neutral and has a good amount of flex for a cushioned shoe. There are a few other shoes whose names escape me that have a very neutral foot bed without seeming over the top cushioned. I find Hoka shoes to be too bulky, but Asics are def a favorite. I also walk miles in my Birkenstocks, and know that they have a whole new (?) line of shoe like options for when it is not summer. For icy, Sorels or Uggs (not the ones from the mid 2000s but their new offerings of proper boots) probably have more support than duck boots.
anon
I have a couple of pairs from Skechers that are very comfortable.
Cat
it’s time for more supportive sneaks, sorry!
Cb
Is this what approaching 40 means? Supportive sneakers?
Cat
most definitely. Signed, 38
Anon
I’m 10 years younger and I only commute in actual athletic shoes! My preference for all sneakers is ASICS (I have 2 pairs for running, a pair of cross trainers and a pair for walking work or other longer walks).
Even my cute sneakers for going out to bars are more supportive than Chucks! I wear Adidas Stan Smiths for cute sneakers.
Anon
+1
Plus chunky sneakers are in. Lean into the dad sneakers trend.
anon
Yup. Age 42, can confirm.
Liza
Either that or discomfort! You always have a choice :)
50+
Raise a glass to younger you who sneered at “frumpy” shoes and another to older,wiser you who knows that life is too short for uncomfortable shoes or sore feet.
And remember this when you are tempted to judge the shoe choices of people even older. Because 50+ year old me is here to tell you, that part does not get better. And I say that as someone who is generally pretty happy with my older self.
Anon
I hate to be the bearer of bad news but looking at my friend-group, you either switch over to usually wearing comfortable shoes around 40 or be forced into orthopedic shoes around 50.
Trish
I gave away every single pair of cute heels after I turned 40 because I would wear them and be sorry half way through the day.
Anon
I don’t wear sneakers. I wear boots, Thursday Vanguard to be specific. They are my most comfortable shoes by a long shot. Padding and “spring” or bounce just absorbs energy that would otherwise be propelling me forward. Better to have well-fitting, supportive shoes than extra cushioning. For something a little softer that looks more sneaker-ish, I have a pair of Alegria lace-up shoes that are comfortable. Vionic brand also sits well in the niche between soft and supportive.
If your feet are big enough, check out the men’s options. As with most clothes, if you need an item of clothing to be durable, to function a certain way or do heavy work, it’s often easier to find that in the men’s section.
Anonymous
Chucks are literal trash for your feet. Zero support. Try Hokas or New Balance. If you want to do 6 miles a day you need real shoes.
Anonymous
I recommend New Balance Fresh Foam Tempo as a sleeker, but supportive, sneaker. In my opinion what makes a shoe look clunky is if you look down on it and see lots of sole protruding from the sides of your feet. These sneakers are not clunky by that metric.
Anonymous
Gah! I meant Fresh Foam Cruz are not clunky. The tempos are definitely clunky.
Vicky Austin
I recently got a pair of Hokas and they’re very cushy and supportive, but I’m not sure if you can get them in the UK?
Anon
Founded in France so a European presence is likely!
Anon
My Cole Haan running shoes fit perfectly and wear like iron – really indestructible
Anon
I have problem feet and I would die if I tried to walk in Chucks. No wonder your legs were tired!! I love my Skechers, specifically the Max Cushioning line. They are super supportive.
helloanon
I missed the post yesterday, but I walk multiple miles a day and cushion and arch support make all the difference to me – good sneakers literally give me a bounce in my step. I am mostly walking the dog during this time so fashion is not a factor. Lately I have been wearing Skechers with the Arch Fit technology. They have different styles, some more streamlined than others. Merrell also has slip ons I really liked but I haven’t seen those around this season (I mostly shop at DSW). For me, tired legs is a sign I need to replace my shoes. Based on how much I walk, that’s typically 2-3 times a year.
anon
Chucks are absolutely terrible for walking. There is zero arch support. You should try an on cloud 5, the slip on kind. Very supportive but not giant and clunky and on trend (as far as sneakers go). Similarly the duck boots are not going to be great for long walks. I wear them walking the dog in the ice, but if you’re doing a really long walk, you’re better off with a hiking boot or putting yaktraks on your running shoes.
anon
Dude, you need shoes with actual cushioning. This is not a job for sleek sneaks. Brooks Ghost is one option.
Cb
OK folks, you’ve persuaded me. I’ve ordered a pair of Vionics sneakers to try, as the sleekest/cheapest option, I’ll report back :) My walking route is often muddy, so Converse felt easy (dry quick, wash well) but I’ll reserve them for my quieter days or cycling days.
Ageing stinks…
Anonymous
Converse are very popular with weight lifters as they need really flat shoes. So perhaps you should take up power lifting!
Anon
Converse are for like, slipping something on your feet to take out the garbage. Or doing grocery shopping briefly. Or going out to dinner with your friends. Not for walking. At all.
Anon
I add a Superfeet insole to my Merrell barefoot trail runners when I’m walking long distances. Barefoot is great when I want to exercise my feet, but when I just want to get around, this is a good compromise for me. I went to one of those running stores where they scan your foot with cameras and then suggest an insole based on what they see. That worked fine for me!
I also have a pair of Brooks Ghosts when I will be 100% on sidewalk and am really putting in the miles (and I use the same Superfeet insoles for these when I wear them). I hate them for trail walking (I feel so unsteady in chunky shoes with no ground feel), but they’re fine for long days on pavement.
As for winter wear, I wear ABEO if I want more support than my Blondos provide. But it seems like the pandemic was rough on their retail stores, so I’m not sure I would know where to buy them now.
Betsy
Go to a running store and have them fit you for shoes. It’s not just for runners, they do this for walkers too! They can help you figure out what shoes will support your feet and gait best. Total game changer to have shoes that are best for your feet rather than whatever the internet thinks is best.
Anonymous
+1, it really helped me to go to professionals when my knee started hurting. They can pair shoes to your gait. They were so much better than picking whatever shoes were on sale in a color I could stand.
Anonymous
+1 million. Different shoes are built for different feet. What works for me (high arches, narrow heels) will not work for someone with a wide and/or flat foot. A running store is the best place to get your shoes matched to your feet.
Mpls
+1 – I tried on a few different brands and could really tell where the cushioning was in some (and if I did/didn’t like it). This is where brick & mortar is your friend vs online shopping.
Anon
+1 to supportive sneakers.
Also bom dia from Portugal! I’m here for the first time and it is so lovely. I’m jealous of you and your fam :)
Liza
Oh my goodness, I wear Brooks Ariels with no shame. When it comes to physical exhaustion and health, I think vanity should be a nonissue. In icy weather (which we never have) I’d put snow cleats on them rather than wear something that isn’t comfy to walk in.
Anon
Hokas. I wear the Bondi which I think is their cushiest shoe. They are amazing for my problem feet.
Jules
Regular Chucks have no support. I have the Converse Madisons; they look pretty much like the classic low-tops but have much more cushion and support, I love them.
https://www.converse.com/shop/p/chuck-taylor-all-star-madison-womens-low-top-shoe/563508MP.html?pid=563508MP&dwvar_563508MP_color=white%2Fwhite%2Fwhite&dwvar_563508MP_width=standard&styleNo=563509F&pdp=true
chores anon
Do you guys think it’s important to have kids do chores? I’ve read a lot of parenting books that say it is, but when I look around at my friends, most of them (myself included) didn’t do many chores growing up and we all seem to have turned into perfectly responsible people who keep our houses decent, etc. Thoughts from any perspective welcome – I just find it an interesting topic.
FWIW, my kids (elementary age) do a good amount of chores and I appreciate that it makes the household run more smoothly. They don’t seem to mind much, especially if it’s something fun like cooking or if the whole family is working together. But I’m not convinced that there’s some deep long-term benefit to it. And honestly sometimes it feels like assigning them chores is lazy or selfish on my part – like, I could and maybe should scoop the kitty litter or fold their laundry and leave them more time to play or read or just be.
Cb
An N=1 but I didn’t have chores growing up and it took me a good decade of adulthood and marriage to being such a messy person at home. I wish I had learned some of the basics growing up. I was fully independent, quite happily moved halfway across the world, but once I was there, I struggled with the basics of life?
My son’s only 5 and we don’t do formal chores, but do expect he helps when asked, without complaining. And he does a pretty good job of it. Yesterday, I asked him to pick up the lego off the floor ahead of the cleaner coming and he went up and did it.
Anon
Do you count a kid putting away their own toys as a chore? To me, that word means something other than that.
Cb
Good question, I guess I don’t really use the language of chores, but more household tasks? This was clearly a bigger job, like 15 minutes, so it felt a bit more chore-like?
We don’t have a chore chart, but honestly, we have a weekly cleaner, and 1 hour 45 minutes between arriving home and bedtime, the vast majority of the household tasks get done after he goes to bed.
Anon
+1 My mother didn’t give my siblings and me chores and we are all fundamentally lazy about these things as adults. Sure, we keep things up and do the tasks because we are responsible and don’t want to live in a slop heap, but I’m definitely the messier half in my marriage.
I have three kids now and it’s really tricky to figure out how to involve them! But I do believe fundamentally it’s important to communicate the whole family is responsible for taking care of the home and each other. I want my kids to get to know that feeling of pride that comes from a job well down, benefitting others and not just themselves (like schoolwork). And that no one is above scrubbing toilets.
One thing we have implemented is my oldest, 7.5, does his own laundry on Sundays now. I sit with him and help him sort and fold, but he does most of it. It’s a simple and not time consuming task for him (the machine does most of the work, so it’s like 15 minutes of “active” doing), so might be a good place to start. I have big plans re setting the table/helping with dishes/wiping the table but dinner time is always a cluster so we haven’t gotten there yet.
Anon
+1 to laundry. My daughter has been sorting her laundry since 3 yo. At first it was a big task that needed help and now at 7 she’s capable of doing it fully independently. That said, we don’t fold anything (I personally think it’s a waste of time). She has a drawer for each kind of clothes. Just sort and stuff. Makes me much happier as I resent doing other people’s laundry when they’re capable humans.
With dishes, she’s just gotten tall enough to reasonably expect her to wash her dish and put in the dishwasher. We’re still working on it but the amount of complaining tells me we need to keep with it or she’ll happily offload this task onto anyone willing.
My kid calls showering and brushing hair housework, so I feel like it’s a must to keep going with “chores”.
Anon
I agree with your kid…. showering and hair care if my most time intensive, hated housework!
Anon
I agree with this. I grew up in a very messed up household where no one ever cleaned or cooked or did chores and I never really learned how to do these things or how to manage a household. Thankfully I found Cheryl Mendelson’s Home Comforts and read the beginning chapters repeatedly until I figured it out (but it took a decade). So I insist that my kid do basic chores. We have a cleaning lady so it’s extra important to me that she sees cleaning/chores as part of everyone’s responsibility and not just the cleaning lady’s job.
She’s 7, so she’s always responsible for putting away her shoes, coat, backpack when she gets home and picking up her room before bed.
After dinner, we all participate in clean up, and her task is to help clear the table, then to spray and wipe the table and sweep under/around it (the last part is crucial for encouraging her to eat more carefully!). While she does that, my husband and I take care of loading the dishwasher and doing other dishes, wiping counters and stove, sweeping kitchen, and taking out the trash. I think it’s important that she sees this as a team effort.
And sometimes I ask her to help with random things — like putting away her laundry. But if I’m doing laundry when she’s not home, I’ll just put it away myself and not leave it to wait for her to do.
Anon
Assigning chores = a management and follow-up task for me. Asking to help me with X or do Y as needed = not a task for me and no follow up burden. One kid is grocery store helper and other is u loading helper (in COVID, I was the only one who went to the store, so rebuilding from that, shopping gives me alone time with one kid and we talk about good grocery store habits and they are always shocked by how much it costs).
Cat
I had age-appropriate chores that were more about my personal space (weekly vacuum, dust, and sheets changed for my bedroom, cleaning bathroom mirror though I was spared full bathroom cleaning duties) than about the family home, but they taught me how to generally keep a clean house.
Anon
I did more chores when I was younger, but then less when I was in high school and so busy with school and sports and a job that I was barely home. That seemed reasonable to me. I think it also makes sense to tie chores to the kid’s interests. I took major responsibility for the pets we got when I was 7, cooked most of my own meals once I became a vegetarian at 13, always packed my own lunches, etc. I think it’s more important to do things like that that teach independence than to just nag them about setting the table or unloading the dishwasher (which I also did, but found less meaningful).
JTM
My siblings and I all had chores growing up, and as an adult I appreciate that my mom made us have the same chores (meaning both the girls & the boys did laundry, dishes, etc). My brothers are married & my SILs have both shared how happy they were to find husbands who knew how to maintain a household, and how they both do their part & don’t leave it all to their wives. My husband also grew up doing chores and I greatly appreciate that he does his fair share of the household stuff.
I remember going to college & having friends who had no clue how to do their own laundry & I swore it wouldn’t be my kids. At some point every adult needs to know how to take care of themselves & their home & chores help develop that skill.
Anon
I expect kids to manage their rooms and bathrooms and laundry and clutter. And then help with the rest (groceries, movi g trash cans, etc.).
Anonymous
Same, except that my very busy teen doesn’t have time for laundry so we throw it in with ours. I also made sure she knows how to cook a full, balanced meal by herself.
Anonymous
Not sure having a teen that is too busy to do laundry is a good thing.
JustmeintheSouth
Like JTM we all did all the chores, my brother did dishes and I had to cut grass/put out garbage. It provided an important life lesson about responsibility and equality. I always had time for reading and fun after chores were done.
Anonymous
Doing Chores and knowing how to do chores are different things.
I have 3 kids. They are in charge of their own spaces and stuff, so they clean their rooms and make beds and have recently started to do their own laundry (after complaining things weren’t clean when they needed them).
We have house cleaners but they don’t clean our basement full bath, so I have the kids take turns cleaning that once/month. It’s mostly used for sleepovers.
My younger two are in charge of emptying the dishwasher after school.
My kids have been begging for a dog and if we get one, they are going to be scooping the dog poop out of the yard, brushing the dog, and walking the dog. If we get a pet it’s a family job take care of it. One of my kids has a fish and she does all the work for it (with reminders/supervision).
With 5 people, everyone needs to pitch in to make the house run.
Lily
I don’t see chores as a way to teach kids to clean, that’s just an incidental benefit. It’s a way to teach them that the world does not revolve around them and they are integral parts of the family and need to contribute. I also think it gives them self-confidence and self-respect.
Anonymous
This. Plus my children will hopefully make better 50:50 partners after they get married.
Anon
This. I had age appropriate chores growing up and while I don’t particularly enjoy them as an adult, I do have a deeply ingrained sense of how a well run household goes and that it takes some work. My exH grew up as momma’s precious little boy and he never could get on board with doing chores. He seemed to intellectually understand that that the world did not revolve around him and that he had to contribute, but when it came right down to the daily grind, he seemed to genuinely feel that he shouldn’t have to if he didn’t feel like it.
Anonymous
All of this. I hated it is a kid, but now I totally see the benefits. I think you can tell in the workplace and in the world who grew up with a notion of collective responsibility and who didn’t.
Anne-on
This. We’ve added more chores as our child has gotten older. Our main logic is that everyone in the family needs to pitch in to help make our household run. As he gets older I’ve also had him help me with chores so that he learns how to clean properly (don’t mix bleach and amonia! dust first and then vacuum, how the windows fold in so you can clean them without a ladder, etc.) and the cadence in which they need to be done. I refust to let him leave the house without knowing how to do laundry, clean, shop on a budget, and cook a handful of healthy and inexpensive meals. After having au pairs I saw firsthand how many young teens simply don’t know how to do those things!
Anon
Agreed. Growing up we had chores and didn’t get an allowance unless they were done well. I see it as early training for work, and ended up having a very easy time in the corporate world. It’s not about housekeeping (we had house cleaners for the real stuff anyway growing up) but learning responsibility.
Anon
Agree completely.
anonshmanon
Yeah, it’s fascinating that OP feels selfish and lazy assigning chores to her kids – would that mean that it’s purely the adults’ responsibilities to keep things running? You also deserve time to play or just be! I bet you can find out interesting underlying assumptions if you dig into those thoughts more.
I am assuming you have a partner doing their fair share at least. Elementary age are able to pitch in a bit and philosophically, shouldn’t everyone pitch in according to their ability?
Anonymous
Socialist! /s
chores anon
I think the guilt comes from the fact that I as an adult control my own schedule to a much greater degree than my kids. I go to a job I chose and like all day, whereas they have to sit in school whether they want to or not, and then they go to aftercare because of their parents’ schedule (although fortunately they love aftercare). We all have some say in evening and weekend schedules, but the parents obviously get the final vote. So I think it’s important to me that they have as much unstructured, un-dictated time as possible given those fundamental constraints.
Despite my ambivalent feelings, it’s been pretty easy to implement a chore regimen at home, and my sense is that my kids do more around the house than any of their same-age peers. They are genuinely helpful on several fronts (and my husband is a totally equal adult partner too, so no one person is overburdened).
I really appreciate all these different perspectives, and I think that mostly I’m glad to hear that no one who had chores as a kids totally resents their parents later! Also interesting to hear how many people felt it was hard to catch up as an adult. I didn’t have that experience, but maybe because I moved in with my now-husband, who was very on top of household management, immediately after college. I definitely want my kids to know how to pull their weight as adults, and to do so!
anonshmanon
I generally liked going to school, fwiw. On the other hand, I actually had to reset my attitude towards chores when I started living on my own, because when I did chores at home, it was never good enough/timely enough for my mom, so I resented chores beyond the grouchy teenage years. So there is a pitfall there to avoid.
Trixie
Most chores that children/teenagers do does not take that much time. Folding your own laundry, making part of dinner, sweeping the floor, etc., are pretty quick. Making one’s bed every morning is an important step, I think, in getting along with roommates or partners. Putting away one’s clothes and not leaving dishes lying around are also important. When my kids were young we had family clean up time on Sundays in the late afternoon. We all picked up the house and did chores to music for 15-20 minutes. A lot got done quickly, and it brought the messy house back to order at the end of the weekend. My sons also learned to cook by making things they liked: cookie and cake mixes, pasta, burgers, eggs, fruit salad, a salad and tacos. These things are all part of life! Not a big deal to impose these in doses on children.
Anecdata
FWIW too, it’s kid-dependent but I think most kids genuinely like at least some elements of being responsible for a chore — kids crave autonomy, responsibility and belonging, and age-appropriate chores can be a great way to give kids that sense of real ownership of something, and of being real contributors to the family’s functioning.
For older kids – I have good memories particularly of my parents giving me one-off/special projects chores more in late middle school and high school as well — like, kids’ bathroom needs repainting, you do it, you can pick out the colors, write up a budget and we’ll pay for all the materials, learn to paint (leaving it up to me whether I wanted to learn via asking them or via YouTube video!), etc. And I have definitely noticed that I’m more confident in my ability to do new-to-me household repairs than many roommates I’ve had!
Anon
100%. It is NOT faster to have my kid put away his own laundry or get his own breakfast – but that’s not the point. I’m raising an adult. He’s learning time management, shared responsibility, and respect for others’ time.
I’m in a field where I interview and hire a lot of young people some of these new employees – they are useless at basic life skills. Some of that is Covid, but for a lot of them – especially kids from middle or upper income families – they are crap at adulting because someone’s been clearing the path for them in such a way that they can fully concentrate on school, sports, whatever. Real life is a rude awakening.
I want my kids to be able to BOTH do homework AND keep participate in routine household management – no expectations they will immediately jump into a career and income bracket where they can pay someone else to do things for them (and I sure as heck don’t plan to.)
nuqotw
I had some chores as a kid (but not a lot?) and I think it is important for kids to do them. It’s not so much to teach them how, but it’s to teach them that members of a household have responsibilities towards each other. We’re not super rigorous about enforcement? It’s usually not worth it to me to argue with a kid about doing chores. Often the natural consequence of not doing /helping with the chore is that the parent doesn’t have time for the fun thing the kid wanted. Sometimes that’s enough to get the kid to help. We do have a few Sunday chores that the kids must do to get Sunday screen time.
I think the how-to can be learned as an adult. We don’t expect that chores that are part of the “family responsibility” theme get done at an adult level. Example: adult putting away laundry often involves having a consistent way to organize the clothes, but the kid method of stuffing it into any old drawer definitely counts as the kid putting away their own laundry.
What grinds my gears is when a kid creates work because the kid wants to see an adult do the work. Kid festoons the railing with TP and laughs and says “haha you have to clean it up!” Just my kids? (The kids have to clean that up.)
Anan
When I was in high school my brother and I were expected to do our own laundry and clean up after kitchen. At the end of dinner my parents would go on an evening walk and fully expect that the dishes be done and the table wiped down and the floor swept by the time they got home. In elementary/middle school I was cleaning bathrooms and washing floors, but my mom was really good at making it seem fun.
I think there was a sense that everyone had to contribute to the well being of and tidiness of the household to the degree that they have time and ability.
Anon
I have little kids but I really like this idea about dishes so parents can go for a walk. I never did dinner dishes or laundry as a kid, but had lots of other chores (make my own bed, change my sheets weekly, dust/vacuum my own room, set/clear table, fold laundry, help wipe down bathrooms, taking care of pets, emptying dishwasher).
Anonymous
Yes, if for no other reason than because it teaches them how to do them. I had a roommate in graduate school who had a BA from Yale and was working on a PhD but didn’t know how to take out the trash. (When the bag was full in the kitchen, she tied it closed and then continued to place additional trash loose on top of the closed bag. Mystifying!) Or load a dishwasher. (Plates stacked horizontally on top rack). Or use a garbage disposal (tried to run a fish head through it, shudder).
I didn’t have a ton of chores at home, although I had some, but learned to do things like clean toilets and wash dishes at summer camp (first as a camper and then as a counselor) and then in co-op residences and dining halls in college. We give our son chores because we really want him to know how to take care of himself when he is an adult. But we also outsources almost nothing and come from families that are the same way; my 78 year old dad still does his own yard work. And he could afford to pay someone to do it.
Anonymous
Actually, I take that back, I think I did have a fair number of chores as a kid. My parents weren’t super systematic about it, which bothered me – they would just suddenly want me to do something and I couldn’t plan it. So with our son, we try to have the expectations more clear and the timing up to him within limits. He’s 10 and is in charge of feeding the cats in the morning, putting the silverware away, folding his pants and putting away his laundry, and cleaning a bathroom once a week, setting the table, plus basics like clearing his place after every meal, hanging up coats, putting away his stuff, etc. I also have started having him pack for trips more, partly so he knows what he has in his bag and can find it.
Anon
I think it’s better to know how even if the plan is to outsource (and I’m a big believer in outsourcing when possible).
The college I went to had a huge problem with students taking dishes back to their dorms and then tossing them in the trash. They ended up paying staff to sift through the trash to rescue thrown out dishes while pleading with the students to stop doing this. There were a lot of very rich, privileged, and clueless students there. I remember doing some college event where food had to be prepared, and I was the only one present besides the organizers who had the slightest idea how to chop a vegetable (based on their attempts, this wasn’t feigned ignorance either). If I could afford it, I would far rather hire a professional to cook for me than cook for myself, but still, I do not think that level of inability is the kind of privilege anyone should want their kids to have!
Anne-on
I was in charge of 1-2 dinners a week from about 15 onward and I remember my friends being shocked that I knew how to cut up a chicken (buying chicken parts in my house was not done because of the upcharge). Our house in college was also a popular gathering spot because my roommate and I both grew up cooking and were easily able to make full dinners/desserts from scratch. It is one of the main reasons I have my son help with meals on the weekends when we have more time – it takes longer to have him help but he’s learning valuable life skills!
Anon Mom
Students in the dorms at my public university did that all the time. It is a 18 year old student thing; not a privileged life thing.
But it is certainly rude.
My kid did basic things like putting her own dishes in the dishwasher and unloading it (a task I irrationally hate). She kept her own room “clean” but I did not police that. She would certainly do whatever I asked her to to do but we did not really have formal “chores.” I taught her to cook, which is something we both like and do together. But I did all the laundry except for folding (another task I hate)- mostly because we did not have enough for separate loads. She went to college probably having done a handful of loads in her life and having never cleaned a bathroom. And yet somehow she grew up to be a neat and responsible person who kept her college house clean and is quite capable of doing her own laundry and cooking her own meals.
Anonymous
I posted above about my grad school roommate, and I fully admit she was a Special Case. I had such a laugh when she complained she was failing her logic class.
Anon
Every single guy I’ve dated who didn’t do chores gowning up expects the women in his life to take care of him. They generally, but not always, had stay at home mothers, and think (even if just subconsciously in some cases) that cooking and cleaning are jobs for women. I refuse to have this fight with men I date anymore or to ever teach a full grown man how to do basic chores like sweep. In contrast, the men I know who had chores growing up tend to be closer to equal partners.
I will make sure that any sons I have do chores around the house (and therefore, any daughters will have the same chores). They need to know that it is as much their responsibility as anyone else’s. This is the least I can do to raise sons who will hopefully be equal partners to any future spouse.
Anon
This is also a hill I die on when it comes to dating. I am NOT your mom. It is not acceptable that a grown man in his 30s “doesn’t know how” to cook. This is an actual excuse used by one of my friend’s husbands. It’s 2023. Go online and find a recipe!
Anonymous
My husband actually taught himself to cook while we were dating so he could invite me over for dinner. His stepmother gave him a “learn to cook” book and he made every recipe. By the time he had cooked his way through the book we were engaged.
Anon
I have a friend whose husband “doesn’t know how to cook” and if she is going to be out of town or working late and she doesn’t leave him a casserole or something to heat up, he just takes himself and their son out for fast food for every meal. It’s just laziness and learned helplessness, period. Any functional adult can learn how to make spaghetti with jarred sauce, scrambled eggs with toast, or some other simple meal. My son has been making those things since he was 12. No excuse for an adult not being able to feed themself.
Anon
I agree!! It’s just not acceptable to not know how to do home maintenance as a grown adult. I’m talking basic stuff like laundry and cleaning the bathroom and making basic meals (even if you’re heating something up from Trader Joe’s!) I will never forget one time when I was out with a friend in the year of our goddess 2021, and her husband called confused about whether the dishes in the dishwasher were dirty (look at them?) and what to do if so. I have decided not to date men based on these types of issues.
This was my first thought when I read the question. There are so many men out there whose clean clothes just appeared in their dressers, their dishes were magically cleaned and put away, their toilets somehow spotless all the time. Then they grow up and, what, think their wives or maids have to do everything for them? It’s just not a good life lesson in my opinion.
Anon
I knew I was going to marry my husband when on an early date he had me over for dinner, had appetizers and cocktails set out and dinner cooking and timed to serve after cocktails.
Anon
Just don’t assign chores to your daughter and not to your son. Paging my own mother…
Anne-on
Ugh seriously. My brother learned the ‘but I don’t know hooooowwww’ whining thing from my dad and managed to duck all chores until he moved out and had to figure it out.
Monday
And don’t assign daughter time-sensitive, high-visibility, frequently recurring tasks while son always gets chores that can be done “later.” Don’t make daughter do relational tasks for extended family (calls, notes etc), but not son. This sets up exactly the division of labor in an unfair straight marriage!
Anon
Yup. Not cool for the son to get assigned lawn mowing (who cares or notices if a week is missed) while daughter gets daily must-dos like the dishwasher.
Vicky Austin
My husband is fastidious about calling family on birthdays and writing thank-you notes for gifts, and I love knowing that he gives a damn about these things.
Anon
When it came to the yard work, my brother did the heavier stuff like mowing, and I did the lighter stuff like edging and sweeping. With the dog, I did breakfast and he did dinner. He scooped the poop and I bathed her. I usually walked her.
Senior Attorney
OMG paging my mother.
Clementine
I do! I think it’s important to have things you do for yourself (make bed, pick up toys), things you do for the household (clean windows, vacuum), and ‘extra things you can do if you want to earn extra $$ (clean baseboards, vacuum the bottom of the pantry, etc).
I grew up in a rural area where I had a lot of chores but also had friends who had to chop wood and feed pigs and help collect eggs every day. I learned how to deep clean but I wasn’t taught how to tidy and keep tidy – that’s something I had to master as an adult. I now set a timer daily, put on fun music (like eye of the tiger) and we all do a quick tidy.
Agreed that chores are a way to learn how to keep a house tidy and also build responsibility for your space. I refuse to raise a man-child who doesn’t know how to cook or do laundry, so my 7 year old does both.
Age appropriate chores are big in our house – my 3 year old’s favorite job is restocking all the bathrooms with toilet paper. Lemme tell you- if you ever come to our house, fear not that you will be well supplied in every bathroom.
Vicky Austin
I think you posted about that before and how 3 will proudly display the extra stashes to guests, and I love it. What a great chore to give a kid.
Clementine
I have! She does other things, but this is her big independent job.
Anon
The stage when little kids actually love helping is so fun and cute. Unfortunately they grow out of it!
pugsnbourbon
That’s how my parents handled chores – we had set tasks that would rotate week to week, and then extra chores we could do for additional cash. I started doing laundry for the family in high school (there were seven of us, it was a lot) and got $5/load.
I love that your little one is so proud of the TP :)
anon
I had no assigned chores as a kid and I’m a functional adult. I was expected to help out when asked (walk the dog, take out the garbage today) but didn’t have recurring chores. My parents didn’t feel the need to arbitrarily assign chores in the name of “building character.” As I got older I was responsible for tasks if I didn’t like the way my parents handled them. I thought my mom didn’t do the laundry often enough so she taught me how to do it myself. If I didn’t like what we’re having for dinner then I had to cook my own meal and do my dishes. I managed just fine when I got to college and had my own apartment.
Anon
They may not have been “assigned” chores, but it certain sounds like you did chores. That’s a lot different than the kid who entered college having never done laundry or cooked or done dishes. Or anything else
anon
I think of chores as making your kid fully responsible for a task that benefits the household. If it genuinely takes something off the parents’ plate then I’m all for it. But I don’t think it’s productive when parents assign chores for the sake of assigning chores (like always telling your weekly cleaner to skip the kid’s bathroom and making your kid clean it instead). Teaching your kids those skills at some point is important though.
Curious
I don’t think I had enough chores as a kid, and I had to learn a lot about housekeeping as an adult. Toddler is at the loving to help stage (18 mos) and happily loads silverware into the dishwasher, puts her clothes in the hamper, and puts away her shoes when asked. She is more erratic about helping with clean-up, but it’s part of the bedtime routine now. She “helps” cook 1-2 times a month, and she wipes up messes on the floor. This is actually all a real help except the cooking, and I’m hoping it builds habits for all of us.
Anon
ah yes, the desire to help stage. how i miss that. now at 4.5 my twins often want to know if they need to actually clean up all their toys, and need more prodding to put their clothes in the hamper, put their shoes away, etc. than they did at age 2
Curious
Yeah… not looking forward to this going away, lol 🤣
Clara
I didn’t really have any official chores at home, but I did help my parents. I don’t think it was a problem at all – I have high standards for how clean things should be so I do all those chores now, and I just would never expect a roommate or partner to do them for me. My parents always talked about how I also lived in the house so I should also do things, and there were smaller things I did, but I never had an issue. For example I didn’t do my laundry growing up but I was not one of those kids who didn’t know how to do it in college. I’ve noticed I tend to have a cleaner apartment compared to my friends. My mom was a good example of how you should keep a house going but we weren’t assigned things differently.
Anon
I don’t know anyone who didn’t have chores growing up. I have 5 siblings so I was doing my own laundry by 12. We had to set the table, unload the dishwasher, vacuum, dust, etc. I think chores are good because they make kids be responsible and also learn how to clean and maintain a household. Please don’t let your kids be the ones who have to go home and have their parents do their laundry in college. I think parents have a responsibility to at least teach kids how to manage a household even if they don’t have to do the work on a consistent basis.
Anon
I also wanted to add that giving your kids chores doesn’t mean it’ll stick – I didn’t start making my bed regularly until I was 35, haha. But I do now and my mom is proud!
Anonymous
I wish my husband’s parents had taught him how to cook and clean better, so yes, give them chores so their future spouse doesn’t get annoyed.
Anon
Our kids became responsible for certain things as they got older. They always had to clean their rooms or at least pick them up. When they got old enough, the rule was that anything not in the laundry basket on laundry day didn’t get washed. They figured out that one pretty quickly.
If they used the kitchen to cook or make snacks, I’d make them come clean it up before I cooked dinner. My younger is the cook and he’s still pretty lazy about cleaning the kitchen at home, but at college, in an apartment-style dorm, he’s learning how annoying it is to be on the receiving end of a trashed kitchen, so he’s getting there.
Both kids did their own laundry by the end of high school, and by junior/freshman year (they’re two years apart) in high school I taught them together to properly clean a bathroom, and for this I bought a caddy with all the products in it so they didn’t have to go looking for supplies. My daughter really loves cleaning bathrooms still, and after an assortment of college roommates, she was always the only one who had ever done it before. The roommates watched on in amazement.
They didn’t do a ton of chores when they were kids but I would yell at them to come get their stuff out of the living room / dining room table / kitchen and take it to their rooms pretty regularly.
They’re not perfect but they’re both the cleanest people in their college living situations now, which says a lot!
Anon
weve used a number of high school babysitters, and it is clear that many bright, involved kids in highly successful families are not learning basic life skills. I specifically tell high school babysitters to clean the kitchen after kids go to bed, and what I’ve come back to that they consider “clean” is mind boggling. These kids are involved in every extracurricular activity possible, and I’m sure chores are hard to add into a busy agenda. That said, it’s a good reminder that these life skills aren’t just learned by osmosis, and have to be taught at some point.
Anonymous
Simple. Add it to college admissions criteria!
Hp
This is a maturity thing, I don’t think your definition of clean will be the same as any high schooler’s. Also, don’t treat your babysitter as maids.
Anon
I’ve never heard of expecting a high school babysitter to clean up the kitchen but maybe that’s just me. I’m not sure I would’ve necessarily known what someone not in my immediate family meant by that if I was just babysitting – ie just load the dishwasher? When I babysat or had babysitters and hadn’t eaten dinner yet we usually were given money for pizza or something so weren’t cooking and using pots and pans.
Anon
When I was a teenage babysitter, if I cooked dinner for the kids I would wash the pots/pans and do a basic cleanup of the kitchen, same as I would do at home, so as not to leave a mess for the family. Maybe that is what Anon at 12:12 is talking about? One thing that I think is important to teach kids is: if you cook, you must clean up afterwards; there’s no leaving it for someone else. It’s a lesson we’ve had to repeat several times for my son, but I think he’s getting it now.
Anon
I find these responses funny, and possibly indicative of younger folks who werent asked to do chores? Yes, load and stack dishwasher with kid dishes used, and wipe the counter. There’s never pots and pans, it’s just cups and plates from pizza and maybe a bedtime snack. I did it as a babysitter in the 1980s, and don’t see anything wrong with expecting a teenager to clean up after themselves and the kids after bedtime. I don’t ask the sitters back who leave the house a mess with things they used. Also, in my HCOL area, these teens are asking $18-20/hr, so yeah, I have no problem asking for this 15 min job if they are hanging out for 3 hours after kids go to bed.
Anon
Coming in late to this, but yes, I do. We have seen so many posts here about men who cannot or will not help around the house; I don’t want my son to be one of those people who cannot clean up after himself or take care of his own basic needs and thus he drives his partner or roommate (s) crazy. My son has to do his own laundry (including his sheets and towels), is responsible for getting his own dishes into the dishwasher (making sure they’re rinsed appropriately and appropriately placed in the dishwasher), or do his dishes that can’t go into the dishwasher. He also has to take out the trash and recycling, wash dishes after dinner, and pick up dog poop at least twice a week and we have a chart for this even though he’s in his teens now. I’m also already starting him on scheduling his own appointments using online scheduling tools and putting them into his Google calendar to keep track of them.He has a very part time job and we have Greenlight for him to manage his money so we’re teaching him about budgeting and expense management (I don’t know if I’d call this a chore, per se). My main goal is not to raise an infantile, helpless man who can’t do for himself. And I think I’ll get there.
Sasha
My siblings and I did weekly chores from the time we were maybe 6 or 7 to when we moved out–from what I can remember, mine were to tidy and vacuum my parents’ office, clean our first floor bathroom, sweep and mop the kitchen floor, folding any clean laundry, and empty all the waste baskets in the house. Compared to what people are reporting here, that seems to be on the heavier side but it didn’t feel that burdensome as a kid. Looking back, it was way more about teaching us responsibility and accountability, as none of the siblings could go out until everyone’s chores were done. I was not great about doing them properly and often shirked my responsibilities which lead to a lot of grief between me and my mom, but now that I’m older, it’s made me so much more appreciative of the work it takes to keep a home clean. I’m happy my parents had us do them, even though I didn’t feel that way at the time.
As an anecdote from the other end of the spectrum, I lived with one of my friends who didn’t have to do chores at home and it made a noticeable difference in her level of tidiness. She never cleaned dishes properly and left the common areas a mess after using them. Her room had an en suite bathroom and I recall her complaining to me once–“I just don’t get it. I clean and clean and clean the bathroom and it just gets dirty again! It’s like, why bother doing it?” as though bathrooms just stayed clean once you did it one time.
Seventh Sister
I think it Is important, both from the perspective of learning that there is no Laundry Fairy and in terms of learning life skills. That said, my kids only have a couple of assigned chores – unloading the dishwasher, keeping their rooms clean-ish, and taking their stuff out of the living room/picking up after themselves. We will also ask them to help out with specific things (e.g., taking groceries in from the car, etc.) but that’s not real organized. More of a, “this is what polite people do type thing,”not a “you must do what I say” thing. As with so many things, I try to be less hard-core than my parents (who would literally buy me a ticket home for Thanksgiving and make me rake leaves all weekend), but I don’t want to feel like the family servant any more than I already feel like the family servant.
Trish
I felt like I was being lazy and selfish in not making my son do more household tasks. It would be easier to do it myself than to nag. My son is much like me, very messy, but will clean in spurts. I think he learned to be neater and to pick up after himself in the college roommate environment.
I did make him and his girlfriend clean up after dinner in high school and she was the one who would give me a hard time! And she thanked me for that 7 years later.
Trish
Curious if your friends are mostly women who are doing all the labor for the whole family.
anon_needs_a_break
Not only do I think all kids should have some chores but I think almost all teens should have a service job of some kind, bussing tables, retail, park clean up, whatever. The people I know as adults who never had those kinds of jobs? You can really tell….
shanananana
There were 4 of us, and each one remembers the blessed day that we became the oldest around on Sunday morning chores and go the coveted task of vacuuming the house as that was the one task you could wear headphones and not be interrupted by anyone. Glorious. The other coveted chore was the riding lawnmower in summer – a tan, headphones, and you get to drive around? Literally every day after school cartoons would go on and my mom would dump a basket of laundry to fold for us. If you subscribe to don’t let perfect be the enemy of good, you’d be surprised how young you can start them on that. I still only fold clothes in front of the TV and actually enjoy sock matching.
Anon
Yes, please continue the chores. All of your children’s future roommates/spouses and even your kids will eventually thank you. Don’t feel guilty!
Gosh, my roommates who grew up wealthy with housecleaners (in my world, you are wealthy if you can afford a housecleaner) were a nightmare. They lived like animals, never cleaned anything. One used to like to borrow my clothes (without asking….) and wash them for me…. mixing things that shouldn’t be mixed and everything came back a shade of grey and shrunken. They were lazy and would be more likely to eat my food, and never help cook/clean.
And yes… for the future partners/wives of your sons, divide chores evenly between girls and boys. No let the boys mow the lawn, and daughter cook/clean etc..
Anonymous
No chores. I did nothing as a kid and wanted the same for my kids. They have their whole lives to do laundry and load a dishwasher. Don’t need to start now.
bluebonnetanon
I think I may be too late here but one “chore” my mother added in high school was requiring my brother and I each to cook dinner one night a week for our family. It really helped make us learn to make a plan, look through the fridge, freezer, and pantry, take stock of what needed to be bought, add it to the grocery list and cook a meal with so dinner could be served at a reasonable time with everything ready at the same time. We had always helped in the kitchen so this wasn’t brand new but each of us having our own night (which moved based on activities) was new.
Anon
No chores as kids. But I think the question needs to be, what is the opportunity cost of time spent doing chores?
If there is a more enriching activity they are engaged in then I would rather they do that than chores. But if they are going to play games on their phone or lay around and stare at the ceiling, then yea, chores.
Anon.
Yes, I was responsible for putting the bins out and bringing them in; unstacking the dishwasher (we each loaded our own things) and vacuuming.
I would rotate the chores because as an adult I hate unstacking the dishwasher because I feel like I’ve already done a lifetime’s worth of it!
Anon
Of course they should do chores (pick up their room, put dirty laundry in the hamper, set the table), because otherwise you’re just a servant. And don’t tell them they’re “helping” Mom –it’s their job.
I say this as someone who babysat for 30+ years, and I’ve seen the gamut.
Anon
I think it matters. My brother and I had chores from as early as I can remember, and as we got older we took on more chores for extra allowance. So it was our responsibility pretty early on to do dishes and laundry, as we got older yard work and cooking help was required, and we earned pocket money with things like ironing. We each married well educated professionals who unlike us had maids and no chores at home and both of us HATE that our spouses frankly lack basic life skills and competence around the house. They don’t know how to cook a basic reasonable meal, lack common sense for home chores (the first time I asked my husband to clean the bathtub when we moved in together AFTER LAW SCHOOL, he used up almost all of a tube of Clorox wipes because it never occurred to him to grab some cleanser and a sponge), and just generally seem to expect that stuff gets picked up. My husband helps when asked and readily tries but it’s annoying as hell and I think he did not benefit from failing to learn these skills and from getting to be lazy around the house as a teen instead of learning to pitch in as a matter of course.
Anon
Didn’t do chores as my Indian family made it clear that studying was my job. I wasn’t spoilt though, gifts were rare and we grew up middle class in India in the 80s. My kids have to help on vacations though and tidy up their messes.
Anon
What password manager(s) do you use?
I have various passwords saved to lastpass, apple, and google, and I can never remember where the correct/latest password is and am constantly stuck resetting them (which is not much better than not using a manager at all). I want to consolidate to one, but I’m not sure which one to pick or how to migrate everything — seems like it would be a lot of work up front but hopefully easier in the long run? I am deeply committed to the apple ecosystem and also to gmail/google cal, so I am unlikely to leave either of those platforms. Lastpass I would be happy to leave behind.
Cb
If I was using apple devices across the board, I’d use the apple one. I use a PC for work, but an iphone and ipad otherwise and I have a similar issue.
Cat
I save all my low-risk ones in Chrome and then use Chrome on my Apple devices. (by low risk I mean random s-tes where my payment info isn’t saved; passwords I use for this stuff don’t all match but aren’t the same as what I use for Serious Security.)
Anonymous
I save them all on a note on my phone
Anon
This would make me a bit nervous. Is the note at least encrypted?
Anonymous
Nope!
Coach Laura
I save them as a note on my phone, but my phone is 6 digit password/facial rec protected. And the notes are in code. If I lose my phone, no one can get to them. I doubt if I left my phone somewhere when the screen had not timed out (30 seconds) that anyone could find/decipher the code that I’ve used.
Anon
I’ve used Dashlane for years and am happy with it. We have a family plan, which makes it easy to share passwords, and it works on all devices/operating systems. It’s gotten a little expensive over the years, but it hasn’t been worth the hassle of switching, so I stick with it.
JTM
I just left LastPass for 1Password – for anyone else looking to switch, 1Password is offering to reimburse you whatever you paid for LastPass if you switch to 1Password. I had just renewed my LastPass subscription when the latest data breach stuff hit, so I took the 1Password offer & it was very easy to switch.
Anon
I’ve been using the unfortunately named KeePass and storing the database file on the cloud so I can access it from any device. But I’m on Windows/Android, so that may be useless for Apple.
Liza
When I set a new password for an account, I send myself an email with the subject “[Account] password.” I put the new password in the email. If I forget it or it’s not autosaved, I search my email for it. Great OpSec!!
Anon
Are you joking?
Anon
I’ve done this but I don’t email myself the full password, just a hint. I use the same few password phrases repeatedly but vary what letters are capitalized and stick random numbers in the middle, so just a capital letter or two and a number is usually enough for me to figure out what the password is.
Anon
I keep everything either on my computer (chrome saves them) or my iPhone. Sometimes I have to look at my iPhone password manager to remember a computer password Chrome won’t save for some reason (looking at you, google & microsoft sign-in) but I know a password is one of those two places.
I don’t mind resetting my passwords occasionally as it’s a good practice. And I have turned on two factor authentication wherever possible due to ongoing identity theft
spring 108
I have a password pattern, not a manager. So I have the pattern, and then each site is adapted. It’s easier to show it (I’m making a new pattern up, by the way :))
Password Pattern: 11.paSSword
At yahoo: 11.yaHOo
At bing: 11.biNG
At google: 11.goOGle
At apple: 11.apPLe
At amazon: 11.amAZon
So I just remember one pattern. I have variations as well for passwords I’ve had to change inexplicably, and that variation involves a swear word which is very satisfying to type in. :)
Anon
I do similar, using just a part of the site name to make it a little less obvious, plus a code word for me. The only thing that trips me up is if a site requires special characters vs doesn’t allow them, but I switch one number for a special character so I only have two options to try.
Password Pattern: 33passKOala OR 3$passKOala
At yahoo: 33yahoKOala
At google (which requires special): 3$googKOala
At amazon (which requires special): 3$amazKOala
Anokha
I use 1Password and hate it
Anonymous
Oh no, I was thinking of switching from lastpass to 1password. Why do you hate it?
Anonymous
Please, if you don’t already, get yourself life insurance. Good life insurance. While you are young.
In the past 6 months I’ve personally known/been acquainted with 5 people that have unexpectedly died before age 40. Some had kids, some did not. Some had diseases, some were killed (a neighbor was hit and killed by a teenage driver texting at 4pm in a crosswalk on the way home earlier this year, leaving two middle school girls and a wife).
I don’t know most of their specific financial information, except for my close friend. She got married when she and her husband were both 25, had a kid unexpectedly* at 26, a second kid at 30, and her husband had a stroke at age 31. They hadn’t gotten around to life insurance yet, and after his stroke the rates were astronomical- he was essentially uninsurable. They were waiting for his 5 year clean bill of health so the rates would go down.
He found out he had terminal cancer at age 35 and was given 6 months to live.
She’s now looking at raising the two girls and while she does work, the only life insurance he had was his work policy–which is better than nothing, but nothing near what it could have been if they’d gotten insurance before he had a stroke.
* this is only relevant because it was sort of a whirlwind time so things like life insurance fell off the radar.
If you’re early/mid 30s with no kids but plan to have kids, consider a policy– it will never be cheaper to buy.
I promise that I do not sell insurance. I just woke up to see yet another Go Fund Me for a toddler’s college fund because his dad died in a ski accident over the weekend.
anon
Yes, a million times yes. You hope you never need it, but the consequences are enormous if you don’t have it and something happens.
Anon
I earn >2x what my husband earns and move jobs every few years. I finally caved and bought a policy through an outside insurer. Early 40s. Worth it for the peace of mind to know that if something happens to me, DH and kid will have a nest egg.
Anon
I’m so sorry for what your friend’s family is going through.
In general, does life insurance have a good reputation for actually coming through when needed? My impression is that it does, and that it’s not a massive battle like other forms of insurance can be (health, house, disability). I know it’s important to have either way, but when I encourage people to get it, they often express skepticism based on the kinds of insurance experiences they’ve had previously.
Anon
Yes. My ex’s sibling committed suicide (more than 2 years after getting the insurance through work), and the family had the insurance check in their hands in time to pay the funeral bill a few days later.
Lily
Of course it comes through, unless the company somehow becomes insolvent (even then there are government back stops for that). You’re either dead or you aren’t. The only times it might not come through right away is if there is suspected fraud (or a suicide within a certain time of buying the policy) but that has to be very rare.
Yes, and...
We filed as soon as we had FIL’s death certificate. His death was a bit of a mystery, still is to this day, so the death certificate was a bit delayed in being issued. However, once in hand it was like 48 hours from filing to money being in MIL’s account.
PIGGYBACK PSA: Make sure your non-joint accounts have beneficiaries that are your spouse. MIL was left with exactly zero dollars upon FILs death (only able to access all of it once probate settled everything, which took 8 months) because she was either a formal authorized user or FIL had just given her an extra card to use for the “family accounts” that were exclusively in his name. It was declined first at the funeral home when literally paying for the casket. None of this arrangement was nefarious, it just was how they did it and MIL was so financially unsavvy she never knew to question it.
Anonymous
Any recommendations for companies to look at? I really need to do this.
Anon
USAA if you’re a member.
JD
I started with policygenius which will compare multiple insurers. Then I called the two top quotes independently and got pretty much the same number directly from the company, although the salespeople will go over a lot of options at that point. USAA was close but not the cheapest.
Anon
It pays off b/c there isn’t a lot of fraud in faking your own death. And viatical settlements (basically, if you are terminal, you can get the $ before you die, which is often helpful if you are single / no dependents) are a thing also.
Anon
I really don’t believe that explanation (health insurance kicks up a fit about all kinds of things that really cannot be faked either), but thanks for reassuring me that my impression is correct!
Anon
The risk they are insuring you against is death. With health, it is a host of contractual things and instead of true insurance is now just a funding mechanism for a set of conditions to be treated with various courses of care for discounted rates from some providers. IMO fundamentally different models.
Anon
Also, health insurance is designed and priced for needing it currently for the basics (and may only truly transfer risk in the case of rare catastrophic things that may actually occur in a current year if the group is big enough and also old enough– car crash, micro-premie, etc.). Life insurance is priced on you not ever needing it (but over a large enough group, some do in a year) and there is no way you need it just a bit.
Coach Laura
I had life insurance on my husband, who died on New Years. But with three insurance companies, I had to get them each a death certificate (which took 3 weeks to receive in my county, even having the funeral director submit everything) and the three companies were VERY slow.
NYLife took 4 weeks, Prudential – the fastest 3 weeks – and Northwestern Mutual who needed the death certificate and then needed forms completed – not online- and mailed. NWMutual took about 6 weeks after requesting, which was 11 weeks after he died.
I had to pay the funeral home 6 days after his death, so I was lucky that I had the funds to do that. They would not submit the death certificate until I paid, which is standard in this area.
So I would not count on having insurance available to pay burial/cremation. Prepaying is an option for those who want to be prepared.
Anon
That’s awful and thank you for the reminder. My husband and I don’t have kids but are planning to try in the next year. However, he has not so great health — bad cholesterol since childhood and on statins since his 20s, and his parents also have terrible health. I think this a great reminder that we should start shopping around for a policy sooner rather than later.
anon
Do it. There is never a better time than when you’re young and still relatively healthy.
Anon
Get insurance NOW, before you are pregnant. Aside from the horror situation of something happening to you during/shortly after birth, pregnancy can cause problems that make you less insurable. Think everything from weight gain knocking you to a higher BMI category to gestational diabetes to high blood pressure to PPD.
anon
+1. We got ours after the birth of my first child (after I had a high risk pregnancy with complications) and my rate is higher than my husband’s and also took longer to come through.
Anon
+1
This is great advice.
An additional benefit is that many Life Insurance policies have additional coverage if you have certain types of disabilities. For example, I have a know someone who was hit by a car (with minimal car insurance) , and left with a traumatic brain injury and paralyzed with a spinal cord injury. Devastating, never worked again. He had just declined his option for life insurance through his employer because his kids were now out of the house. It turns out that the life insurance policy had payout for loss of limbs – which a paralyzed limb counts as. Devastating financial cost to the family for the rest of his life.
Sometimes terrible things happen that are almost worse than death. And I had no idea that Life Insurance could help for this.
On that note, always get long term disability insurance from work if that is an option!
Anon
1000% for your last sentence. You are more likely in any given year to be gravely injured vs die. Disability insurance isn’t cheap, but it’s b/c it’s priced as if you will claim on it (and often people do). I know a family who relies on this for the roof above their head — dad can’t work but didn’t die, he just is still incapacitated going on 10+ years.
JD
Question for you, I have long term disability through work, but it’s at 60ish % and I’d lose it unless my next employer offers the same. How many people carry independent long term disability? It looks much more expensive than life insurance, and it seems harder to figure out everything that would be covered. I’m not quite fancy enough to need same occupation like doctors/surgeons, but would need it to payout at a professional job level.
Lily
Great reminder. And get a lot of insurance. My husband and I each have $2 million plus our work policies. That way the surviving spouse can pay off the house, fully fund college and not have to work for a certain number of years at least. The last thing you’d want to have to think about is money when you’re grieving a spouse and facing life as a single parent.
anon
I don’t disagree, but there are Social Security Survivors Benefits too. The complete financial picture should include those because they are sizable. Source: was researching this the other day and the survivor benefits from my death would be half of my current take-home pay.
Anon
True. My sister has insurance on her ex b/c she has high fixed expenses and even if the kids get SSI, she can use it to pay the rent but once they are older, there is no guarantee that she would be able to get that $ (whereas, the insurance would go just to her to pay off her house). She makes 1/10 what he does, but his new wife would get everything but for my sister’s separate policy on him.
JTM
100% and thank you for sharing this. My husband lost one of his best friends last week, she had a bowel obstruction that spiraled into other issues. She was only 43, and no one expected that what was supposed to be a straightforward surgery would result in her death.
I didn’t get life insurance outside of what my employer provides until I had a child already (and I found out I was pregnant with #2 during underwriting!) but still managed to secure a good rate. I have a friend who struggled with PPD with both of her kids & found that she was uninsurable at least initially because of that, so if you can, get that insurance before you have kids.
Anonymous
Also, make sure you know where all the financial accounts are and how to access them. I work with a nonprofit where this comes up a lot – people have to step in for their spouses or partners, and have no idea how to access anything
Cat
Do people not get at least basic life insurance through their job? I’ve always had 1-2x my annual salary included as a free benefit. While that might not be enough if you have kids, in my case that would pay off our house and my husband could very comfortably support his mortgage-free self on his own income.
In-House Anon
I think employer provided insurance is probably fine for families without minor children. We have term life insurance that ends after our youngest would graduate from college. My husband and I earn about equal amounts and our costs would not decrease by half if either of us died (because of kids), so it makes sense in our case.
Anon
That’s what I’m relying on because I don’t qualify for it otherwise. It’s not ideal, but nothing about our system is.
Anon
But people are getting sacked from jobs left and right — I wouldn’t trust a job’s insurance to be there always and the risk of dying is always with me (have young kids at home and spouse could not afford to keep the house on what he makes alone + my standard off-the-rack insurance).
Anon
This is what we do. No kids, we each make enough to support ourselves, and we have significant savings. We’d certainly be worse off if one of us died, but we’d be okay, even they’d lost their job and the employer provided life insurance didn’t pay out.
Anon
Same. I think this is really only an issue when a couple is imbalanced and fully reliant on one person’s income. Both of us could afford our debts without the other’s income so we aren’t worried about life insurance.
Anon
We have kids. We just have what our employers offer for free. But this is because we both have pretty high incomes and will be fine without the other.
Clara
My work life insurance is $50k. That’s fine because I don’t have kids, but if I did I’d probably want more than that.
anon
the benefits I had in previous jobs were laughable on this front (including as a Fed); I currently have 4x my salary with a cap at $1M, which is amazing. But we still have separate purchased term life insurance as well.
In-House Anon
This is a good reminder. In the past year, my husband has had two uncomfortably close near-misses (one while running and one while driving; both caused by inattentive drivers). We bought our insurance relatively late, and after our first kid — so it’s not dirt cheap, but still very affordable for far greater coverage than either of our employers.
Anon
This is a major source of contention in my house. DH has been procrastinating on getting life insurance for years. And we have a kid now. He has a preexisting condition which means he needs his dr to sign off. Our couples therapist and financial planner are on his case too but he just won’t get it done, and I am not sure if I should die on this hill. He says he has a policy at work which covers long-term care costs. I saw how helpful life insurance was for my mom when my dad died.
Vicky Austin
I’d definitely stake out on that hill. It’s important and will take ten minutes. Perhaps your husband can post here and we can all encourage him to Do the Thing!
Anon
I think people can struggle with this task because it involves accepting mortality! Though in my household DH will also procrastinate anything without a very firm deadline.
Anon
Life insurance isn’t for the good of the person who carries the policy; it’s for the good of the people who depend on their income or work (eg a SAHP whose labour would need to be replaced with paid labour if they died).
Anon
Absolutely it is a hill to die on.
Anonymous
He “says” he has a policy at work which covers long-term care costs? Sorry, but whether you keep your finances separate from each other or not, this is something you should both be aware of. You BOTH need to be able to plan for what will happen to the remaining parent and child should one of you die early. I absolutely would die on this hill. I know it’s hard. I have an otherwise very savvy friend who simply has refused to address this issue for all kinds of reasons that aren’t really reasons. But you will both feel so much better with a plan in place.
Senior Attorney
Die on this hill, for sure.
Anonymous
Yes, do it. I’m the OP and when DH and I got insurance, DH needed a medical visit to get $2M vs the $1M you could get without a visit. Guess which one he wanted?
I pushed hard and he went and got the Dr visit and is now insured for $2M. He did drag it out a year so ended up at the rate for a 36 y/on a a 35 y/o which is $10 more per month. Dummy.
JD
You’re the one who would be screwed. If you have insurance already, I’d go to the same company, and schedule a call for husband with the salesperson. It’s annoying, but get the ball rolling.
Curious
Yeah. We didn’t get it before I had cancer. I need to see what it will cost us now.
Anon
Wish I qualified 😰
Anon
ALSO, pay a bit more for a 30-year fixed rate policy b/c you can get T2 diabetes or something else that makes you uninsurable and rates can skyrocket. I got a 30 when I was 38. Husband’s health was already bad, so we could only afford a 20-year policy on him (will take him close but not up to age 65). But it is better than nothing. I expect to work until I am 65+, so would rely on retirement by then. But I had kids late and the years before I retire are my highest expense years. We figured that if one died, we’d need a FT nanny and/or to move closer to family (or to pay off the house and downsize significantly) if we went from a house hold with 2 working parents to one working parent and not even an ex to take the kids or help out off oand on.
Anon23
Any thoughts on term life insurance vs. universal vs. participating?
This has been on my to-do list for about a year now, so this feels like a reminder from the universe to move it up to the top of the list! Thanks
Anon
Renewable fixed premium term is IMO the only way to go. Otherwise rates may go up or you could get no renewed.
Anon
This. Since the pandemic, insurers are reporting that mortality has gone up in my demographic, so I worry rates will go up eventually too.
Anon
Term. Whole life / universal life is a HUGE moneymaker for insurance companies. They market it to vulnerable people as an investment vehicle, but there are very very few people who wouldn’t be better off just buying term insurance and investing separately.
Signed,
Insurance professional
PJ
Term only, fixed premiums. Anything that is trying to mix insurance and investments is a horrible deal.
Anon
I’m so sorry to hear about your loss. I am single, live with my bf, we rent for now, not planning to have kids, late 30’s, and I make more than my bf. I have a basic policy through work. My savings can cover immediate costs like a funeral. Do I really need more life insurance? I figure no one will inherit anything substantial if there are medical costs, etc.
Anon
No but what do your goals look like for the next 30 years. The best time to buy insurance is when you truly don’t need it (young and health and likely also single and childless). Can your BF afford the rent on his own if you died? You may not want to support him for the rest of his life but what about for the rest of the lease?
Anon
Are you planning on supporting parents or siblings? How would your funeral and probate be covered?
Josie P
Totally agree! We got life insurance when I was pregnant and it ended up being very expensive for me, whereas if I had done it in my early 20s, when I didn’t have the pregnancy-induced hypothyroid, etc., on my chart, it would’ve been much cheaper! To everyone who’s looking for life insurance: find an independent insurance agent who only sells life insurance. They have access to much higher death benefits at much lower premiums than, say, Northwestern Mutual (cough, cough). For example, my DH has $3.5 million and I have $2 million.
Note: I don’t sell life insurance either, but I am an estate planning attorney, so see this all the time with my clients.
Anon
Does anyone have a good recommendation for where to start with life insurance to see multiple quotes?
Anon
I used SelectQuote and the process was very easy. There was an agent of sorts I dealt with who came to my house for the paperwork/medical portion and then he worked up the best quotes and policies for me to choose from.
PJ
Zander
Anon
+ Disability insurance.
This is one of the few benefits of being besieged by financial advisors as a new law firm associate, as at least I listened enough to sign up for policies as a healthy 25 year old. I have similar stories of you professionals unexpectedly diagnosed or killed very young, most of whom were very lucky to have signed up for disability & life insurance.
Anon
Yes! For those thinking of trying to conceive, buy the 20 or 30 year term life insurance now! You will never be healthier and your rates will never be cheaper, I promise. I got a $1m policy on myself for each of my children. The appx $40/ month each came out of my bank account every month and honestly I never noticed.
The last policy just expired and obviously never paid out, but over that 20 year term my assets grew enough that everyone would be ok financially if I got hit by a bus today. That wasn’t true 10-20 years ago, so the life insurance was peace of mind.
Absolutely get life insurance!!
Anon
If you were desperate for a four day weekend somewhere warm, where would you go and why? From DC, traveling alone, trying not to spend a million dollars.
Anonymous
Whatever is cheap in the carribean. DR most likely
Anon
Mexico because it’s definitely warm this time of year – other places like Florida can be hit or miss.
startup lawyer
Miami should be warm at this time. I would book a flight and just whatever looks good on Hotel TOnight (I did this a lot pre-kid). I’ve also done that with Antigua – flew on standby and literally booked the hotel at the terminal.
Cat
to Google Flights to browse by destination and play with dates.
Anon
Cancun.
Anon
I went to DR solo in 2018 and it was great! It was a little uncomfortable because it was the type of resort where couples get engaged and married but overall it was nice.
London (formerly NY) CPA
Same. DR was the cheapest and I was able to get a deal for an all-inclusive with flights that fit my budget. Was it the best Carribean destination I’ve been to? No. Did I get a relaxing couple of days in the sun with lots of pina coladas? Heck yes! :)
DC
San Juan Puerto Rico! Great timing on Jet Blue direct flights from DCA and no hassle of customs or anything once you get there. We’ve taken an 8 am flight and been on the beach for a late lunch! :)
Anonymous
Has anyone had the Femvue test? Will I be able to drive home after?
anon
Yea absolutely. It’s like a nothing test really. Much less than an HSG.
Anonymous
Great thanks!
Mimi
Divorce/separation advice or just encouragement needed.
After 22 years of unpleasantness I finally left my spouse. Kids are out of the house now (and seem to be absolutely thriving in college which is such a bright spot).
I left my extremely difficult spouse and got my own place 6 months ago. I have a therapist.
I was soooo unhappy for so long I thought this separation would be “easy” and a huge relief.
He is/was an huge yeller.
And yes, I wake up many mornings with a huge smile on my face…I also have a lot of sadness and doubts. Yesterday my spouse sent me maybe 300 texts and it was difficult not to read them.
Anyway – I am hoping we start the mediation process in a couple weeks.
Would just love any words of encouragement to deal with my sadness and sometimes doubt.
Anonymous
Sending you 300 texts in a day is abuse. Tell your lawyer so they are aware. Congrats. You’re doing great. It will get so much better.
Vicky Austin
You are doing all the right things and should be so proud of yourself!!
Ses
Good for you! I found that a clean break after a long term relationship was important. I blocked texts and social media for a while, and given the 300 texts, I think you could benefit from the same.
Ses
Ps the sadness is normal and will get better. It’s like a part if you is gone, and you need to grow back your own identity into that empty spot. Try to embrace that process and the growing pains – it’s your opportunity to try new things and meet new people who don’t ever shout at you.
OP
Thank you for this
Anon
FWIW, I’m sure your kids are proud of you. I know several people who had parents divorce while in college. And all of them were to proud see their parents taking steps to be happier and to make changes if marriage was no longer working for them.
Op
I should also add – we have not yet even told kids.
They are out of state at college with double majors and my spouse really did not want to disrupt them during classes – we plan to tell them next week when home for spring break.
I’m very worried about it and think one child will be mad at me.
Vicky Austin
Maybe initially, but if your ex is the type to send 300 (!) texts harassing you, it will not be long before they understand how much trouble and pain you have been in (if they don’t already – they lived with him too).
Anon
You two separated six months ago and haven’t told the kids yet? School is obviously not an excuse for that, they’ve had breaks since then. Your husband is manipulating you into not telling them. Frankly if something that big happened in my parents’s lives and they waited more than half a year to tell me I’d be pissed. Don’t know what your husband’s angle is here but don’t let him keep delaying.
Vicky Austin
She’s living in a different apartment; I assume the “telling” is going to be that they’re officially getting divorced now.
Anon
She’s not divorced yet if she is talking about starting mediation. I’d be pissed if my parents held this for 6 months too.
Anon
Sorry, Vicky. Read too fast
Anonymous
+1 Are you being literal about the 300+ texts? If so, that is . . . unhinged.
OP
I didn’t actually count but I’d have to scroll and scroll it was non stop and all day.
He routinely will send 50+ texts at a time.
I just met with my therapist – under her advice I told him he can only text with “logistics”.
Anonymous
Are you sure he isn’t telling you to hold off just so he can get to them first with his side? Ideally you would tell the kids together but if he’s harassing you then I would not trust that he’s going to be honest.
JD
If he yelled that much, he definitely yelled at you (and/or kids) in front of the kids. Regardless of their first response, they’ll be relieved for you at some point. They’ve probably had to walk around on eggshells for years too. I wouldn’t be surprised if they were secretly relieved to get out of your house and get to college, where you don’t have to put up with a difficult parent. I remember feeling guilty for leaving my mom and brother in the house, but very relieved for myself.
Flats Only
300 texts sounds off the hook to me, and in your shoes I would be looking for some sort of restraining/do not contact order, and mediation would be out the window in favor of a really aggressive lawyer. At the very least keep screenshots of the texts so you have a good record when it escalates to other forms of harassment.
OP
He has a habit of sending a very large amount of texts- as well as lecturing for hours.
I think he has undiagnosed adhd and/or is on Asperger’s spectrum. But I can’t diagnose him…
anon_needs_a_break
Please stop making excuses for his abuse
OP
This is helpful to hear
Anon
Mute him if you can’t block him at this point. But echo others that mediation with a person like this is going to be a mess. I’d get a bull dog lawyer.
Anonymous
Oh yes and document, document, document. Literally write a note with Date and bullet points of anything noteworthy that happened. Don’t be shocked if he tries to turn the kids against you, just do document it and go get therapy for the kid.
Sunshine
I hope Senior Attorney pipes up here if she’s around today. Her story of a mid-life divorce and later remarriage is a tale of happiness that hopefully provides hope and assurance to you.
Anonymous
Google “grey rock method” for dealing with 300 texts. Consider therapy for yourself if you need it. Got a hobby or join a gym. Don’t overshare with mutual friends. If you need to, figure out your personal finances. Know that this will end and please don’t go back. I heard women return to the man 7 times in average in these situations, before finally breaking free.
OP
I do have a therapist that I meet with weekly.
And thankfully I have a lot of hobbies (running, barre, hiking) and close friends.
Financially I am fine too.
I’m in a great position other than a very difficult spouse.
KP
You are grieving the death of what was and what might have been.
Daffodil
Congratulations!! This could not have been easy, but it sounds like you did the right thing for you.
When I got divorced, I never questioned my decision to get divorced (different circumstances / reasons for the divorce). But that didn’t take away all of the sadness and loneliness that I often felt – and felt for a long time afterwards. There were times when my ex was the only I one I wanted to talk to for comfort, as he had been my best friend and closest confidante for over a decade.
You’ve lost someone who has been a huge part of your life for many years, and it takes time to grieve that loss. You’ve also lost what you thought your future would look like, and need time to grieve that as well. Not to mention all the other changes you’ve made to your life in moving out, and the stress of what is still to come in the process.
Give yourself grace – you will get through this!
Senior Attorney
OMG when I left my mean, sarcastic, yelling husband I woke up weeping for at least six months. I was SO SAD. I just kept telling myself “the only way out is through,” and “this time next year things will be much better,” and it turned out both of those things were true.
In one way, Mr. Mean Sarcastic Yeller did me a favor by not communicating for the first couple of months, which gave me a chance to break the attachment, even though it was horiffically painful at the time. Your job right now is to break that attachment and if blocking him on your phone will help do that (“I’m blocking you because your texts are too painful. If you have something important to tell me, please communicate through my lawyer.”) I encourage you to do that.
It just sucks and there’s no way around it — just through. Big hugs from the other side, where life is sweet, indeed!
Anon family law
Family law lawyer here. Sometimes I do not even recognize my clients when they approach me months or years after we get through their separation. They are so happy and relaxed they look like completely different people. I can’t say that for every single one, but a very significant number go on to live a much better and completely different life.
300 texts is harassment. If you haven’t already you should talk to a lawyer. The dynamics in these situations can be very complex, and you need a lawyer for both legal advice and an outside perspective. It may be that proceeding to mediation is still worthwhile. But only you and a good lawyer can figure that out.
Please do not let him manipulate you into thinking you can’t speak to a lawyer if you want to work things out cooperatively via mediation. The best mediation outcomes occur when you have a lawyer you can consult on the side as the mediation progresses IMHO. I say that as someone who offers mediation services too.
It’s normal to feel sad about an ending. The sadness feels unpleasant, and we want the unpleasantness to stop. Going back to him would make the grief-sadness stop. That’s probably why you are having doubt. I think you know that returning to a spouse who yells all the time, and sends 300 texts a day, is not what’s best for you. Lean into the sadness with some Steel Magnolias or sad books. You will get past it eventually. Maybe you will be unrecognizably happy by Thanksgiving : )
Senior Attorney
And also? It took me three tries to get away from Mr. Mean Sarcastic Yeller, and both times after I went back, I ended up a year later thinking “if I’d stuck to my guns, I’d be well into my new (better) life by now.” Don’t be me. Make it stick!
OP
This is so helpful.
I’ve also wanted to leave for years but with three kids felt “trapped”
Anon
Friends, I have the pettiest complaint. On Monday, I came to work and couldn’t find my half and half. I bought this fancy, hippie half and half in an old-timey glass bottle from my corner; the bottle comes with a $3 refundable deposit. I like that it’s organic/local/environmentally friendly, but I digress. I put up a “hey! has anyone seen this bottle?” note because it really bugged me.
We have a contracted cleaning company who purports to clean the fridges every Friday, but historically (in the last year), has never once done so. Apparently, they chose to do it for the first time on Friday, and threw out the bottle (still in date, just not marked with a name). As of this morning, there are now signs on the fridge (next to my note re: bottle) about what things will be tossed every Friday – including anything not labeled with a name.
I don’t want the money. It’s not about the money. I do want to complain to the cleaning company, but I don’t want anything from them, so that is leading me down the “Karen” path. How do you get over pettiness like this?! It’s Wednesday and it is still bugging me!
Anon
I think they already know you’re unhappy. They saw your sign and posted one of their own. The rules are clear going forward, so that’s all you can do. If they throw it out again, even if it’s labeled, then you can complain.
Anonymous
I’d be annoyed too – but I agree with this
Anon
Agree. Continuing to fight about it after the clarification is definitely petty. The cleaning company did not throw out your half and half AT you.
If you keep this up you will become “that person” in the office.
Anonymous
You should have labeled the bottle even if there wasn’t a sign telling people to do so. It is very standard to throw out anything unlabeled on Fridays.
Anon
I would not call out the cleaning crew. That sounds like bad juju. If you are now worried other items of yours will bet tossed out in the common fridge. I’ve known a couple of people at my work to put a small 4L mini-fridge under their desk. They’re pretty inexpensive.
It might also be a good day to step out of the office at lunch and grab a pick-me-up treat. Everyone has bad days that just need a silver lining.
pugsnbourbon
That’s a really good idea (the personal fridge and the pick-me-up treat).
Cerulean
Remember that those cleaning the fridge probably make next to nothing and are under a time crunch when cleaning. Not to be glib, but think of your good fortune in life, buy a new bottle, and just move on already.
Anon
This exactly. They don’t have time to look at each item and decide if it’s cherished, expired, or what not; they just need to know if it has a name on it. You got unlucky in timing but you have recourse going forward: take two seconds to put your name on your stuff.
Anon
+1
Senior Attorney
This is honestly a really great way to reframe this. Thanks, Cerulean!
Cat
you are justifiably irritated but any further action is definitely unwarranted and an overreaction – I would seek revenge by purchasing a tiny personal fridge for my office.
Anon
It’s not even justifiable.
Liza
I don’t get how you think you have cause for complaint if you know their policy is to clean the fridge every Friday, and they did so. I get that they hadn’t been doing it up to that point, but it was definitely a foreseeable risk. I think this a “That sucks, but it’s on me” situation.
Anon
+1
NYCer
+2. They were just doing their job.
Anonymous
I feel bad for the cleaning staff here. They can’t win. If they had left something without a name on it, then they look like they aren’t cleaning. And people will say they “purport” to clean every Friday.
I’ve worked at smallish companies where everyone takes a turn at occasional fridge cleans. It’s gross work and a time suck. I’d consider myself lucky that someone else is cleaning my stuff and that the bare minimum I can do is do my part to make that awful task easier by following the rules.
Aon
+1
Anon
I’ve always considered anything in the office fridge a flight risk and very unlikely to be there. Save the fancy creamer for your house and just get something basic for the office. I get over stuff like this by staying realistic in my expectations.
Curious
Lol @ flight risk in this context. love it.
Anon
A personal fridge as revenge would definitely negate any environmental benefits of the reusable bottles!
Anonymous
This. It’s the most Karen response imaginable. For goodness sake get a grip, mourn the fancy bottle if you feel it necessary, and move on to the next bodega to get a new one. Then label that sucker!
Anonymous
Usually when I get this fixated on winning a point about something I know is petty, it’s when I have an undercurrent of irritation, argumentation, or stress already bubbling along, or when I’ve been hanging out with people who are complainers or irritable (either hanging out in person or on social media). Is that you, too? If so, I usually treat this kind of thing as a wake-up call, and try to do something to lower the stress/irritability coming from other areas.
Anon with the glass bottle
Interesting perspective, my partner is in a funk (mild? depression) that’s been going on for the last few months and complains about a lot. I’m also left to do a disproportionately high amount of the home child/pet care stuff. You’re probably right about this framing and I’m not sure how to lower my stress given that it’s my partner… but I’ll think on it.
Anyone have good ideas on isolating yourself emotionally with a semi-draining partner?
Anon
Yeah, that’s rough….
Time for a big talk with your husband…. you are concerned for him. And you are starting to get down yourself, more overwhelmed at home. Does he need to check in with his doctor? Change is job? Start exercising/anxiety reducing things?
Sometimes just starting an after dinner walk… time to talk.
Because isolating yourself emotionally from your partner is not a good thing for your family, yes?
Anon
My colleague used to bring in 12 packs of soda to have 1 can a day with his lunch. When he kept it in the office fridge, people just helped themselves to it. There were also stories of pumped human milk being tipped into coffee.
Keeping stuff you’re overly attached to in the communal fridge is just asking for it.
Don’t berate the cleaning staff. Move on.
Anon
Get over it. It’s your fault and you already look weird for putting up a note.
Anon
Venting. We realized our previous internet provider was giving us horrible speeds, so we upgraded to fiber. Did a speed test on my phone and everything looked great! Same with my personal laptop. Tried to connect on my ancient work laptop….and apparently it’s so outdated that it can’t even connect to Wifi 6. I purchased a driver to try to fix it myself and of course, it can only be installed by an administrator. Spent 30 minutes trying to talk to IT and the best they can do is get me a new laptop in MAY. Wtf. I guess I have to be in-office for the next two months?!??????
I know this is the epitome of first world problems, and I’m lucky to be able to WFH but I. Am. So. Irritated.
Anon
If wifi doesn’t work, can you just plug in with an Ethernet cable?
Cat
+1, I actually do this on purpose at home bc hardwired Ethernet is faster. The ethernet cable goes into my docking station.
Anon
This is what we do with our main desktop computer at home. The rest of our devices are on wifi, but DH cannot handle the smallest amount of lag when he is gaming, so his device is hardwired.
Anonymous
I sympathize. Our work VPN network significantly slows down my (extremely fast) internet connection. The IT department tried to tell me it was just my internet, until I send them speed test screenshots from not on VPN vs on VPN from the same computer. They then believed me but had no solution. So frustrating.
Anon
If you think it would fly IT department, they do still make USB Wifi Adapters. I recently had to buy one as a bandaid solution for a laptop with a broken wifi network card. It might be worth a couple of bucks to try as an experiment.
Anon
Connect your phone to the Wifi and use it as a hotspot.
Anonymous
I’m really embarrassed to say this but my finances are way out of whack. I think my Covid spending when it felt like I wasn’t doing anything has caught up to me. I’m currently in a positive account balance for all accounts and I have no credit card debt accruing interest but my savings account is way, way lower than it was. Any ideas for how to start getting things under control? I think I need help with finding where my money is going AND stopping the spending. I’m 35 and know better – my net worth is five figures and I can’t afford short or long term to keep sliding.
Anon
I have an old school excel spreadsheet of my monthly post tax income and all my expenses. I include my fixed expenses like rent and utilities along with things like entertainment, dinners out, Netflix etc. This helps me see how much money should be left over versus how much money is actually left over. If I should have let’s say $1K to put towards savings each month and see my account only went up $200, it’s a good kick in the behind to figure out what went wrong. I also use the mint app.
Anon
This is what my husband does. He keeps track of our monthly spend and lets me know when things are out of whack.
One way to control it, OP, is to put your savings money in the account first every time you get a paycheck – my savings account and checking/debit account are with the same bank, so it’s a scheduled auto withdrawal. Then when you spend, use your debit card. When you’re out of money you can’t spend more.
But first, yes, go through everything you spent any amount of money on / yes, even $5 / for the last three months and figure out where the “leaks” are.
Anonymous
I would get Mint, add your accounts, and go through every transaction for the last year and make sure it is properly categorized. Then look at your spending and where you can cut back. It will take a few hours but give you a good picture.
Also, pay yourself first. Set up your 401K contributions. And then set up a savings account with a good interest rate (or investment account or whatever you choose) and have the money go directly to the savings account from your paycheck. I think it’s helpful to have savings at a separate bank so you are not tempted to do a quick transfer when you want to over spend.
Anon
It’s very simple to find out where your money is going, though tedious. Set a standing time once a week to review all your accounts/credit cards and mark down what has been spent, divided into broad categories (“food”, “utilities”, “misc”, etc). I prefer pen and paper but you could also make a spreadsheet for more official tracking. Seeing it in front of me also helps me resist shopping urges, because I don’t want the pain of writing down more things or seeing the number get bigger.
Do this for 1-2 months, then decide what a reasonable budget cap would be. Maybe start by trying to reduce certain categories by 20%, or whatever is sustainable but pinches a little. You can also automate a payment to savings once a money; could be as little as $50, but it gets the ball rolling.
Anonymous
It sounds like you aren’t living on a budget, which is just a term for a “spending plan.” You start getting things under control by taking the amount of money you have coming in each month, and assigning every single dollar to a spending category. You PLAN to spend X amount on going out to eat and X amount on insurance and X amount on savings for car repairs and X amount on buying gifts. By assigning every dollar to some kind of spending or savings, you recognize the choices you’re making, where you’re giving yourself freedom to spend and where you’re saying no to something because it’s not as important to you.
There are lots of apps and worksheets that can help you do this. I’d also start binge-watching “Til Debt Do Us Part” (find it on YouTube). Each couple/family is put on a financial improvement plan, has to deal with the issues that come up as they try to change (or resist it). Watching it will start to highlight your own patterns, and will (over time) begin to help you change.
Anon
Set an automatic deposit schedule for your savings and make it untouchable except for emergencies. You may be able to even set this up through direct deposit of your paycheck – like set $100/500/whatever to go do directly from employer to the savings account. Then act like that money doesn’t even exist and pay close attention to your balances so CCs don’t require you to dip into your savings.
PJ
Try the YNAB budget app: it forces you to budget only with the dollars you have today, no floating on credit cards. It’s like a virtual envelope system. If you need to move money between categories, you can but it keeps you honest with yourself and you can see where you have money to spend before you decide to spend it. Good luck!
Anon
Grab a small notebook and start writing down, like a log, every single time to spend money. Including $1 at the vending machine. Everything. Add up the totals at the end of every day. After a couple of days of doing this I find myself spending way less and not missing that extra spending.
Anon for this
Just chiming in to commiserate. I’m in a very similar boat – no debt, not falling behind on bills, not slowing down on 401k or 529 contributions, but my savings aren’t as robust as they once were. I’m doing a lot of the things suggested, but I also had to tell myself (and internalize it) that there was no reason to feel bad or guilty. I’m objectively in totally fine financial shape (sounds like you are too). I want to do better, and I’m going to adopt stratgies to do that, but I don’t need to feel like I have anything to atone for. That just makes things worse.
Artemis
Does anyone have a good free tracker for menstrual cycles? I am in my early 40s and this is the first decade of my life where I am experiencing my emotional and physical symptoms intensely and noticing repeated trends over the course of the month. I’m getting a loose sense of it in my own mind but would love to have a tracker where I could note symptoms and feelings nearly every day if I want to and see trends or associations over time, especially as I head into perimenopause.
In my teens—my periods were not bad at al, lucky me.
In my 20s—on hormonal birth control
In my 30s—pregnant, nursing, recovering with multiple kids
In my 40s—husband had a vasectomy so I am experiencing everything au naturale and it can be a real trip!
Thanks.
BeenThatGuy
I have been using the SpotOn app. My period used to be textbook and predictable. Now in my mid 40s, I feel like I have been body snatched. The app helps me track and comment on what’s going on to try and find patterns.
Anonymous
I like fertility friend, which I used when trying to conceive/infertility treatment. Lots of customization and ability to track custom symptoms, add notes each day, etc
Anonymous
I just write in a paper calendar.
anonshmanon
I started doing this recently as well. One less potential data breach.
pugsnbourbon
+1 especially now.
We saw a commercial for an Apple Watch feature that “can tell you when you’ve ovulated.” My wife and I both said NO out loud like they could hear us.
Anon
+2 especially since I live in a red state.
Anonymous
Clue
Anon
I use Clue as well. Bonus points that they’re based in Germany so less concern about conservative overreach.
Anonymous
I stopped tracking digitally when Dobbs came out, but then found that it was worth it enough to me to risk it because tracking on paper wasn’t happening.
I use the built in Apple app. My theory is that Apple has staked a reputation on being more pro privacy and has the money and lawyers to fight more than some random app.
Cat
fwiw, I went back on the pill – my nightmare unpredictable periods are a thing of the past, and while I still get extra grumpy a day or two before, it’s nowhere near the flash-rage I had to quash before.
theguvnah
Use Euki. it was created by pro-repro health and rights researchers and it doesn’t store data and can’t be used against you.
“Privacy is Euki’s biggest priority. Unlike many other period tracking apps, Euki does not store any user data in the cloud. Data is only stored on the app in your phone, and no one else has access to it. Not us, not Apple, not anyone. There’s no backend to the app, so no one can access your information unless you hand them your phone. You can choose to protect Euki with a password, and it can even display a fake screen if you type in a certain code”
Anon
Is there any advantage in appearing in small claims court in person? I am suing my ex-landlord for the return of my deposit. The in-person hearing is scheduled such that I will have a two to five week old newborn at that time. I am thinking about asking the judge for a remote hearing, but I am concerned that somehow this may reflect poorly on me. WWYD?
Anon
What’s your landlord’s response? I’d say people are generally more persuasive in person, but if your case is very strong, remote should be fine. Do you have evidence? Photos of no damage to the place? Etc. Have a friend who’s a lawyer look it over and give you tips.
Anon
OP here – The landlord is countersuing me for another 6K. Generally speaking, his argument should be outlandish (i.e. he wants us to pay for replacing the entire house hardwood (in a 1000 sq ft prefab) which was in service for at least a decade before we moved in and used it for 1.5 years) but I don’t have photos of every single little thing (like he’s charging $300 for replacing a window sill that got a water stain and of course I didn’t take a photo of every window sill because I’m not a crazy person). I do have a lawyer engaged, but he’s not allowed to appear in court in my state. He won’t give advice on in-person vs not because he doesn’t want to recommend against my physical comfort shortly after giving birth, and doesn’t have enough small claims court experience to have a strong opinion (since lawyers are generally not allowed in small claims).
Anon
If you’re being countersued, I would go in person. If you want to end things, I’d consider dropping your case in exchange for LL dropping theirs. Your lawyer can draft a release agreement. If you both have issues and LL is going to war with the counter suit, you probably won’t win. Many small claims judges will split the baby and you’ll end up there anyway. I’d consider how much the hassle is worth to you.
Anon
OP here – thank you for this advice. This is well worth considering.
Anon
Depending on the state, if a LL wrongfully withholds a security deposit and you win in court, you can recover double the damages plus attorney fees. Might be worth it to look into hiring an attorney.
Senior Attorney
In many states the defining feature of small claims court is that there are no attorneys.
Wild West
Yes you should absolutely go. In my small claims courts they’ll steamroll right past your case and dismiss it. You filed it, your presence will elicit the most sympathy. Maybe ask for a continuance because of your baby? – but you should go. Small Claims court is a kangaroo court with no real law, you will probably win.
Anon
+1
I’d try to go if you can.
Honestly, bringing your newborn would probably work in your favor!
It still $ucks though.
Anonymous
Bringing your baby may get you barred from the courtroom or at the very least will antagonize the judge.
Anon
Yea, I’d go with the baby, personally.
Anon
Do not bring your baby. I repeat, do not bring your baby. One noise from the baby, and Court will likely eject both of you from the courtroom and dismiss your case. Not to mention, courtrooms are not exactly clean, germ-free environments.
Anon
+1 – you’re not Elizabeth Holmes trying to avoid prison and a baby is irrelevant to the issues you’re discussing. This will be a distraction and backfire.
Senior Attorney
Agree will Wild West. But I would try to find child care or get a continuance before I’d bring a newborn to court.
Anon
Agreed. I’ve seen old, white dude judges explicitly state that they thought bringing a child to court was a sympathy ploy. They of course had never had a little one on their hands that they couldn’t just pass off onto a nearby woman.
Anonymous
Did y’all miss that she will be TWO WEEKS from having given birth?? No you don’t plan to show up in person for things at that point. The court will reschedule.
Anon
It’s unclear then why she filed so close to her delivery date, if she’s suing, then she has control over that. More practically, OP, can your husband attend instead? Presumably you filed with both of you as plaintiffs?
Anonymous
Being two weeks out from childbirth is absolutely grounds for rescheduling. I would not expect to be able to take a zoom hearing from home with a newborn.
Anon
OP here – Thanks everyone! I’ll repost this again tomorrow morning. I did not choose the court date. The court was so backed up that this lease has been over for more than two years! I am the only plaintiff (aside from the countersuit), but partner can certainly take care of baby if I do brave an in-person appearance. I can ask for continuance but also really just want to get this over with because I dislike unfinished business hanging over me. Unfortunately, because we moved twice since the lease was over, I also now live nearly two hours away from where court is taking place. If baby comes on due date, I’ll be exactly four weeks postpartum. My existing kid was born two weeks late. She’s much older and I just can’t remember what it was like this far out from birth. Probably because it was all a blur, ha! So my choices are go as scheduled, ask for remote hearing, or continuance + in-person.
Quesotionable
what’s the polite way to tell a coworker who’s being a biotch to either step up and tell you what the problem is, or to chill tf out? getting really tired of these grown women acting like kindergartners.
Anon
I actually did this to my manager once. She was making all these snide comments and I finally I said “if you have something to say to me, just say it.”
She was taken aback, but then said she thought she worked harder than me and I goofed around too much. There was some truth to that, but it was also true that she hoarded projects because she didn’t think anyone else would do them right. It actually turned into a very productive discussion.
My manager was a first time manager. She got the headcount – me – because management recognized she had too much work, but learning to delegate was a new skill for her.
I’m a direct person and it has usually worked out well for me. I can’t stand it when people expect me to get things through hints and body language.
Anonymous
I was actually going to say you can’t ask someone to tell you what their problem is (at least, a boss couldn’t – someone’s health or mental issues are their own, they don’t have to tell you anything). but if you think it’s a problem with you like the other commenter said then yeah just say it.
Hollis
During the pandemic, a childhood friend from 25+ years ago, who still lives in the suburb I grew up in (and where my parents still live) reached out to me with a happy birthday email. We then went on to exchange emails with each other – kind of like pen pals – every few months, sent pics, etc. She was a great friend to me back in middle school, but we went to different high schools and our friendship kind of faded over time. I’ve enjoyed emailing with her but a couple of things about her views are so different from mine that I’m not sure if I want to be “real-life” friends with her. E.g., we are from the same faith but she actively supports a pro-life non-profit while I am mourning the reversal of Dobbs, I want my kids to go out of state for college but she worked extra and paid higher tuitions to be sure that her kids stayed not just within state but in the same metro area where we grew up. I’m pretty sure my husband, who has never met her, will not really like her and her husband because they are way more conservative in their views and we wouldn’t have anything in common (no commonalities at all in our professions or industries even).
In the end, none of this really mattered because we live a few states apart and conversations are just conversations. However, I am going to be traveling to her city to visit my parents soon and I’m really on the fence about whether I want to see her. If I wasn’t that busy I would normally want to grab coffee or lunch with her just for old time’s sake, but I am taking my family (including three teenagers) and visiting extended family so I don’t know that I want to make my kids sit through a lunch or coffee with my old childhood friend they’ve never even heard about. Should I just go and not say anything about the trip to her? Does this mean that I should probably not continue emailing with this old friend?
Cat
I wouldn’t drag my whole family along but like, an hourlong coffee chat where you reminisce and talk about your families doesn’t seem like the kind of thing you need to write off because of what you described…
Vicky Austin
+1. But also you do not have to be friends with this person if you don’t want to.
Anon
+2
NYCer
+3. Just go see her alone.
Anon
Just have your teenagers do something fun while you grab coffee. You’re overthinking this.
Anon
+1
Anon
It’s ok if you don’t feel a connection to this old friend any more, but some of your reasons sound pretty strange, like the college thing and lack of a commonality in jobs. Plus, why would you even invite your teenagers to a coffee date? Couldn’t you leave them with your family for an hour?
anonshmanon
I’m curious, do you share your beliefs in equal measure (e.g. mentioning a progressive charity or event in passing), or do you simply note her views and don’t mention things that she may disagree with?
Anon
I have a couple friends like this, and I see them if I want to see them, but try to not do it with the whole family. I like to see them because they are smart women, and they know and respect me, but grew up with strong religious beliefs and family influence that guide their voting preferences, which were different from mine. They live in very homogenous worlds, and I am from a different one. They listen to me… really listen. Because they really know and respect me. It helps to hear the different perspectives, and fears. They are each changing over time – different than their parents. They both work impressive jobs, for example. Very different from their stay at home mothers. One became the Union rep negotiator for her job/peers. Another became a gun control activist within the Republican party.
Lots of change occurs slowly …. over generations. Not over one news cycle, or one presidential cycle.
Anonymous
You aren’t on the fence. You don’t want to see her so don’t.
Anon
I think it’s an extraordinarily life limiting view to only be friends with people who think the same way you do. That’s how we get even more polarized as a country. I’m liberal/left leaning, vote Democrat and also mourn Dobbs. But some of my very best friends are the polar opposite. Because they’re friends, I have a much better understanding of the complexity behind current issues and while I don’t typically agree with their point of view, I end up with a more nuanced and thought take on things. I would encourage you to develop relationships with people who aren’t like you. Diversity of thought is a wonderful thing to have in your life.