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Let’s start out 2021 with a bang, shall we? After the last year, I’m certainly not in the business of making any predictions, but I do get the sense that when things get back to “normal,” most offices are going to be significantly more casual than they were pre-pandemic. If your office is going through sartorial growing pains, I think separates are always the way to go.
This knit peplum jacket could have a more formal look over an ivory or gray sheath dress but would look equally stunning with a pair of ponte pants or skinny jeans. This dark indigo color is gorgeous, but if you’re looking for something more versatile, it also comes in black.
The jacket is $345 and comes in sizes S–L. Drayton Peplum Knit Jacket Indigo
Sales of note for 9.30.24
- Nordstrom – Beauty deals through September
- Ann Taylor – Extra 30% off sale
- Banana Republic Factory – 50% off everything + extra 20% off
- Boden – 15% off new styles
- Eloquii – Extra 50% off sale
- J.Crew – 50% off select styles
- J.Crew Factory – Up to 60% off everything + 50% off sale with code
- Lo & Sons – Warehouse sale, up to 70% off
- M.M.LaFleur – Save 25% sitewide
- Neiman Marcus – Friends & Family 25% off
- Rag & Bone – Friends & Family 25% off sitewide
- Spanx – Lots of workwear on sale, some up to 70% off
- Talbots – Fall Cyber Monday sale, 40% off sitewide and $5 shipping
- Target – Car-seat trade-in event through 9/28 — bring in an old car seat to get a 20% discount on other baby/toddler stuff.
- White House Black Market – 40% off select styles
Sales of note for 9.30.24
- Nordstrom – Beauty deals through September
- Ann Taylor – Extra 30% off sale
- Banana Republic Factory – 50% off everything + extra 20% off
- Boden – 15% off new styles
- Eloquii – Extra 50% off sale
- J.Crew – 50% off select styles
- J.Crew Factory – Up to 60% off everything + 50% off sale with code
- Lo & Sons – Warehouse sale, up to 70% off
- M.M.LaFleur – Save 25% sitewide
- Neiman Marcus – Friends & Family 25% off
- Rag & Bone – Friends & Family 25% off sitewide
- Spanx – Lots of workwear on sale, some up to 70% off
- Talbots – Fall Cyber Monday sale, 40% off sitewide and $5 shipping
- Target – Car-seat trade-in event through 9/28 — bring in an old car seat to get a 20% discount on other baby/toddler stuff.
- White House Black Market – 40% off select styles
And some of our latest threadjacks here at Corporette (reader questions and commentary) — see more here!
Some of our latest threadjacks include:
- What to say to friends and family who threaten to not vote?
- What boots do you expect to wear this fall and winter?
- What beauty treatments do you do on a regular basis to look polished?
- Can I skip the annual family event my workplace holds, even if I'm a manager?
- What small steps can I take today to get myself a little more “together” and not feel so frazzled all of the time?
- The oldest daughter is America's social safety net — change my mind…
- What have you lost your taste for as you've aged?
- Tell me about your favorite adventure travels…
Anonymous
Cotillion question. This Cotillion is a weekend or night manners class for middle schoolers that in prior years might in include a bit of social dancing but this year will feature a distanced dinner at a country club. It seems to be a thing in the upper SEUS. I didn’t grow up here and don’t see other mom acquaintances now, so I don’t know what girls wear. Boys wear navy blazers and khakis from pictures I’ve seen. Would a sweater dress and booties and black tights be too casual for a girl? I didn’t grow up with this (southern parents but so poor that they are more country than country club, but very good teachers of table manners). I feel so cut off from the world these days (my world and now my kid’s world).
Anon
The dress code wouldn’t really matter to me. My kid would not be attending this year (pandemic) or any other year (the politics of socioeconomic stratification).
LaurenB
I certainly understand pandemic concerns and would share them if I had a child that age, but I’m curious what’s so objectionable about the classes themselves. I know people who have attended Cotillion and they were just classes on how to conduct oneself in a social setting, make small talk with people, etc. A little twee for my personal taste and probably nothing I would have sent my kids too, but beyond that … attending Cotillion doesn’t necessarily mean that the kid / family cannot be concerned with or active in larger matters of social justice.
Anonymous
I think the point of these is to broaden opportunities. Like I had a friend in college who chewed with an open mouth. She needed this before her first interview lunch not after. At any rate, I don’t have kids but my DC suburb parents who have kids who did this are very rainbow flag public school parents.
Anonymous
Nope. The point is to signal social class. A side benefit might be increasing opportunities for some but that’s a tiny tiny part of it.
Anon
Nope. The point is to signal social class. A side benefit might be increasing opportunities for some but that’s a tiny tiny part of it.
Anonymous
Do you think cotillion is an opportunity though? I don’t. Because I can teach my kid table manners myself and I don’t actually want to teach them that we value country clubs and exclusion.
Anon
Country clubs are absolutely an opportunity. Think about how many jobs people get because they know someone that knows of an opening. These people rub elbows at the country club, or at least I assume they do. I’ve never been a member but just looking at other attorneys in my firm there are so many business and employment opportunities passed back and forth “at the Club.”
Anonymous
Again though, an opportunity for what? You’re assuming my goals in raising kids are maximizing their access to money and power. They just aren’t. (And they can join a country club as adults no problem! But I’m not a member, and I don’t think getting to eat a meal in a country club is an opportunity for anything good I want for them.)
Thanks, it has pockets!
I think the things you can get out of cotillion can be gained elsewhere. Ballroom dancing lessons exist, as so etiquette lessons if you’re unsure of how to teach such things at home. Cotillion seems like a remnant of old fashioned “coming out” balls where young ladies were presented to suitable young men, to ensure the children of wealthy families courted and subsequently married the right people.
On the other hand, if this really is something that most kids in a given town do, and your daughter really wants to be a part of, then by all means let her do it. But again, it might be prudent to consider doing it next year when it’ll be safer.
Anon
Good grief. So many women on this board have a net worth in the seven figures, high salaries, huge houses, fancy cars, and the ability to send their kids to expensive colleges. Then you complain about the social exclusion of a class that costs about $250?
LOL.
You’re complaining that a kid like mine – parents make reasonable but not huge amounts of money – will have opportunities that should be reserved for your kids. Then you dress it up as concern for the poor.
Anon
Most people learn table manners at home, don’t they? I mean it seems nice like a nice enough activity during normal times but it’s not really teaching any critical skills.
Anon
You would be surprised at how many people do not learn table manners at home, especially in my very poor state. We have several associates who really struggle with this. They are good attorneys, and I worry that they will be unfairly judged for something they just never learned or were exposed to. I am actually trying to think of a good program to suggest without seeming condescending.
Anonymous
Sounds like you’re the one judging
Anon
@ 10:13, is it manners or unwritten socio-economic class markers? Do things at issue really matter or do you think it will make your associates just look like they weren’t raised in that environment.
If it is “don’t put your elbows on the table” or something like that, just tell them. “Hey, many of our clients are snobs about table manners. I think it’s silly but when you are dining with them, make sure you don’t put your elbows on the table and wait for them to start eating before you eat.”
Anon
I would expect the overlap between parents sending their kid to cotillion and parents who don’t teach their kids table manners to be nearly nonexistent.
Anon
There’s table manners and there’s “dinner party etiquette”. My parents taught me table manners, but they had no experience with dinner parties and I don’t think knew anyone who did. I learned over time, from being in service jobs rather than being a guest. I welcome the day when many of these archaic markers of class hit the trash heap.
Thanks, it has pockets!
I don’t think you need cotillion to teach someone to chew with their mouth closed. Most of us learn that at home, and if you know someone who doesn’t have this skill, you ask them “Charlene, can you please get in the habit of chewing with your mouth closed, it’s very unappetizing to see the half-chewed food rolling around in your mouth.”
Thanks, it has pockets!
Or at the very least, people with parents classy enough to enroll them in cotillion have probably already learned basic table manners at home. There’s likely a tiny overlap (if it exists at all) between families who neglect table manners at home and families who send their daughters to cotillion classes.
Anonymous
I think you can learn table manners at home, but most kids I see these days would benefit from cotillion (or similar) for social manners. I’ve lost count of how many times I’ve talked to 12-year-olds who mumble a “hi” after prodding from Mom while staring at the ground or who can’t even sort of participate in a mature conversation.
Anon
I would assume that most people who chew with their mouth open do so because they are unable to breathe through their nose, rather than that no one ever told them before?
Anonymous
I am a Californian transplanted to the east coast. I never heard of cotillion growing up, but here it’s a big deal. I enrolled my daughter because the whole school was attending and I didn’t want her to be left out, and because I thought it would teach her manners and conversation. It turned out that they didn’t teach the kids anything at all, and she hated the actual dances. The real benefit was that groups of families would go out to dinner afterwards.
I absolutely would not enroll a kid in any type of cotillion with the pandemic raging. A “distanced” dinner is still a masks-off indoor affair.
If you insist on doing this, the cotillion planners should provide a detailed dress code for each event.
Aren’t you the same person who grew up poor in the south with two middle-school kids who is stressing out about everything from the width of your stove to camping gear to the cancellation of the SATs to how to store your firewood? You need to chill.
Anon
I feel so bad for kids and parents in states that aren’t taking the pandemic seriously. It is so easy where I am as everything is cancelled. I can’t imagine the peer pressure where 80% of the parents in a school don’t care and sports are still going on and dances and all that. Having to be the parent that says no, you have to miss a year of everything while all your friends don’t must be so incredibly difficult, even if it is the right thing to do.
Anonymous
Your second paragraph hit the nail on the head. I think this poster is suffering from some severe social anxiety. There is absolutely no shame in that, but it should be treated
anon
Believe it or not, multiple people on this board live in the south.
Diana Barry
+1. Why on earth are you considering this?
Ellen
Hi everyone! OP, while it may well be that a sweater dress with black tights/booties could work, each local school district varies so much from one to the other, so you may want to confirm with the teachers what you saw from the pictures you’ve seen to know exactly what the dress protocol will be for her this year. Dad says things you may not have considered could be the clotheing itself. A sweater dress may be nixed b/c it is an absorbant, but with the possibility of viral loads in the air, is this optimal, or could leather/plastic/vinyl be more preferable? Also will any special PPE be requred? Dad assumes that facemasks will be required, and I agree.
Is the school providing official mascotted masks to use and/or as keepsakes? Will students be allowed to provide their dates with gifts or flowers? If so, should only 1 person be allowed to pin them on the girls and boys? Dad recommends VELCRO tape instead of saftey pins in order to avoid sticking accidents or other cheap thrills the boys always try to get, even if there were no pandemic. Good luck to you and your daughter. I so remember my own 7th grade formal where it was one of the first time the boys really started to focus on me. I was very pretty back then. It is sad that we can’t always stay 13 years old, when we were at our cutest. But we can’t so we have to grow up and move on! YAY!!!!
Anonymous
I did cotillion classes in middle school but in the NE. Girls wore nice dresses (like party dresses). Sweater dress and booties would definitely have been too casual. However, I would imagine it’s very town specific. If you’ve seen pictures of boys, weren’t there pictures of the girls too? Your daughter likely just wants to fit in, and so being either too casual or too fancy would not be good.
Anon
+1 did cotillion in 4th/5th grade in the NE. Sweater dress/tights/booties definitely would have been too casual.
NYCer
+2. I did cotillion in California and girls definitely wore party dresses (early 90s…things could have changed!).
Anon
+3 to the party dresses. I did cotillion in Texas in the early 90s.
Anonymous
+4 for too casual
Anonymous
Are you out of your mind? Indoor group dining for this nonsense? Skip it. Cotillion is not life or death. Unless you choose death.
Anon
Remember though, many of these kids all attend in-person school together and already eat lunch together in cafeterias.
I’m not the OP but I’m trying to keep in mind other states are still “business as usual.” These kids are already all exposed to each other likely.
Anonymous
I’m actually for in person school. But I don’t think that means you throw the baby out with the bath water and decide that because in person education is essential it’s full on cotillions and parties!
Anonymous
Where I am, there has been so school since March but sports are OK. And since we may have no school until next August, I’d rather my kid have sports then nothing. Nothing else is actually a choice now.
Anon
+1
My (kindergartener) is in in-person school, but we are doing 0 outside activities (normally we would do ballet, maybe swim, and some art classes that pick up from her school and act as aftercare). We do playdates outside and masked only, and we try to get them to distance from each other as much as is reasonable (i.e. we encourage tag, riding scooters, make them sit further away from each other when drawing with chalk…). At school they eat at their desk and the teacher puts on a movie to get them to face forward and to discourage talking while they eat and thus have their masks off.
I don’t think increasing opportunities for exposure is a good idea even if they are already exposed to each other.
Also, what the first person said. I would not be comfortable participating in this for other reasons.
Anonymous
I think that cotillion is a good idea, but not in a pandemic and I think that you are also experiencing some anxiety about class and ordinary life that is palpable in your posts. Everything will be OK and it doesn’t matter if you fit in or don’t fit in with others. Just be yourself because being genuine counts for so much more in life.
Thanks, it has pockets!
Asking us might get you some helpful information, but the best way to ensure your kid is properly dressed is to reach out to one of the organizers of this function. Surely they either have a dress code, or written guideline, or at the very least, they have a good sense of what the girls typically wear.
But I’d also discourage this sort of thing for this year. Surely by 2022 this pandemic will have subsided enough to enroll kids in the “real thing” with social dancing and such, and I’m sure your kid wouldn’t be the only one doing it a year later than usual.
Anon
When my DD did Cotillion 4-5 years ago, she wore a party dress. White gloves were also required. The organization that put it on here had a very specific dress code, so I would suggest reaching out to the organization.
Anon
+1 reach out to the organization. Sweater dress and booties is too casual.
Lots to Learn
My daughters did cotillion in the SE within the last 10 years. And I totally disagree with the other posters that a sweater dress and booties would be too casual. For the formal, final dance, they would be, but not for the regular weekly meetings / practice sessions. They’d be perfect.
Of Counsel
My daughter did cotillion about 7 years ago. Sweater dress would have been much too casual for us but agree that this is very location specific so you should ask.
For us it was a valuable experience. Having a third party teach her things went over better than her parents for a middle schooler and a lot of it was things that translate well to a business setting. For example my daughter was quite shy and learning formal introductions was very helpful in teaching her to stand up (straight), look someone in the eyes, shake hands, etc. How to sit at a formal dinner party, how dishes are passed, some formal manners that do not usually show up at home, how to accept and reject an invitation to dance (they taught them both but they were not allowed to actually reject invitations at the final “party”).
And it was VERY wide spread at her public school. Most kids – boys and girls – did it (and they had a fund set up to pay for it for anyone who could not afford it and a confidential way to ask, which I thought was nice).
Anonymous
I’d love to get a great birthday present for my new bf and would love some help. He spent about $50 on my recent bday present so I’m thinking that’s the right amount.
He’s in his 50s, likes poker, jazz, playing guitar, baseball, modern art, autocross, and Porsches. I think he’d appreciate something related to one of his interests as he generally seems touched when I remember them/ask things about them, but I’m not knowledgeable about any of them and am not sure what I could get him in this price range that he would like and doesn’t have. (Like, he already has high quality poker cards and chips…)
He has such specific/deep interests that it seems like it should be easy to buy him something, but somehow I’m flailing (and also want to somehow get him this perfect magical present).
The only thing I can think so far is a coffee table book related somehow to one of these interests. He reads but not avidly, so it’s not an amazing present but at least it shows I’m paying attention to what he likes.
anonymous
For the guitar, maybe a nice padded strap. Baseball – a Tervis tumbler with his favorite team logo.
Anonymous
https://us.puma.com/en/us/pd/porsche-legacy-baseball-cap/022817.html?dwvar_022817_color=01#productStorySection
Ellen
I am assuming you are in the same pod with him. At his age, he probably has most everything he needs, so as long as neither of you are tee-totellers, you can always buy a bottle of cream sherry for about $40 to share with him in front of a wood burning fireplace. This way, you can both enjoy it, and I know he will appreciate it– like all men– if you get romantic with him to celebrate.
pugsnbourbon
If he happens to be a Yankees fan, the MoMA store has a NY Yankees cap with “MoMA” stitched on the side.
Anonymous
He actually is a Yankees fan! I have never seen him wear a baseball cap, but then we spend all our time inside these days…
Anonymous
The Porsche store has small accessories, I put a Porsche ice scraper in my husband’s stocking.
Scilady
If he’s into autocross look at an SCCA membership or automotive magazines. Also think about related items – a baseball cap from his favorite F1 driver or something related to the show Top Gear if he likes the new version.
Anonymous
Thanks! I think he would definitely appreciate something in this area, I just feel a bit out of my league. Not sure if he has an SCCA membership but maybe I can covertly find out. He definitely has at least some magazine subscriptions.
Anonymous
How into poker is he? If he really likes it, there are some great poker books out there, or you could get him a subscription to a poker coaching website. You could also get him a collection–like a poker book, a guitar music book featuring his favorite band/ genre, and then dine in while watching LaLaLand or Soul…
Anonymous
Very into poker, I know he watches strategy videos and reads books…I will see what I can find in that area.
Carrie
For his Jazz interest…
Jazz on a Summer’s Day
A legendary documentary about the Jazz / Newport Jazz Festival that is a cult favorite, but still not seen by many. I bought it for my father when he was your boyfriend’s age, and he loved it. I was told about it by a peer of my father’s who said it was a key gift for any jazz lover.
You could either buy him the DVD, or you could write a “gift certificate” to pay for the streaming cost (totally cheap) with the gift that you will also sit and watch it with him. People who love stuff like this love to share it with people who care about them.
Anonymous
I really like this idea…in normal times I think what I would get him is tickets/an evening in a jazz club together so this almost seems like a covid-safe alternative to that.
kk
What’s your budget? I’d consider a framed photo by Ted Gushue – House of Spoils has some great options.
Anonymous
Thanks…I’ll check it out! He spent about $50 on a present for me recently and we haven’t been dating super long so I think that’s about right. I don’t mind spending more but if so it should preferably look like I didn’t. :)
kk
Hmm. Check out Uncrate- they have their own storefront but also link to a lot of stuff – it’s a good place to get a pulse on fancy-guy stuff. They might have some good ideas for you!
Jules
Maybe tockets to a streaming concert or film? Jazz at Lincoln Center has been streaming concerts from “Dizzy’s Club” but the January schedule isn’t up yet. The Preservation Hall Jazz Band has this film out, for on-demand streaming: https://www.atubatocuba.com/
Some local clubs might also have streaming options.
Anonymous
Thanks, this is a great idea. Maybe a combination of a small physical item plus something streaming…
Anon
Let’s say you have a young child with gorgeous, thick hair but also facial hair that doesn’t meet cultural norms (e.g., a ‘unibrow’).
I always assumed that should say ‘Screw society’s beauty standards!’ and basically raise your kid to be a pinnacle of self-esteem who knows that she is gorgeous just the way she (or he!) is. Frida Kahlo as a Beauty Icon!
…However. I had a conversation (via text) with a friend with very similar features/coloring/hair who was raised by hippie parents who did this. Her experience was that it was absolute torture, she was constantly teased, she wished her parents would have just ‘taken care of it’ and not made it the issue it was. She says this is something she can point to that lead to some really unhealthy issues as a kid/teen.
Her take is that you don’t make it a big deal but just quietly make sure there are two eyebrows. Nothing a kid would even notice – she mentioned something like a Tinkle razor as part of general grooming. You don’t comment on it, don’t make it a thing, but also quietly protect the kid from the merciless teasing that she remembers enduring as a kid.
Thoughts? Experiences?
Anonymous
Are you high? “Nothing a kid would even notice” like literally what? Have you met a child ever? They have brains. They notice you doing stuff to their face.
Lily
LOL I don’t think this is what OP meant but now I’m picturing her creeping into her daughter’s room at night with a tinkle razor hoping she doesn’t wake up or notice her unibrow is gone in the morning.
OP
Heh- no ninja moves would be involved. The point is more to not make a big deal about it and just have it as something quick and painless that was taken care of as part of general grooming.
anon
Heh- no ninja moves would be involved. The point is more to not make a big deal about it and just have it as something quick and painless that was taken care of as part of general grooming.
Anon
If you’re going to be so over the top with your responses, you might want to work on your reading comprehension.
Lily
I would absolutely help my kid “deal with it” (whether waxing, shaving or whatever) but I would let her broach the topic first. I would make sure she felt generally comfortable talking to me about grooming issues as well as teasing issues. If she doesn’t have a problem with it and isn’t being teased, you bringing it up preemptively could cause more harm than good.
Allie
I disagree that bringing it up causes more harm than good – not every kid would feel comfortable raising it and by the time they raise it it’s already become a problem. We try to present stuff neutrally but present it. Something like: “some people want to have one eyebrow, some people prefer to have two. you get to decide because it’s your eyebrow, so if you want one great, and if you want two mommy can remove the hair in the middle.” I would offer to take care of it thoug
anonyK
My two cents is that this depends on the age of the kid, which is not clear from the post. I would not bring it up to a preschooler or do anything about it at that age either unless the kid raised it on their own. If you have an open relationship with them it is very likely they will mention it themselves in the kindergarten- early elementary years. I am no expert but it seems that kids that age are very sensitive and curious about the differences between themselves and others. A gentle way may be to let her see you pluck/wax your brows and see if they ask about it and then you can bring up the concept of eyebrow grooming that way (My 5 yo has many thought provoking questions about the eyelash curler…) and give them the option. I would definitely give them the option in a unpressured way instead of saying you must take care of this or you must leave it alone. If the kid is closer to the middle school years, I don’t think it’s bad to bring it up on your own. In the context of that conversation, you could always say mommy’s friend X said that she had one eyebrow as a kid and it really bothered her and she wished her parents had offered to help with it (which avoids creating the impression that you think there is something wrong with the kid and also lets them know they aren’t alone).
OP
In this specific scenario the kid is very early elementary and the first real appearance awareness comments are coming out.
I posted this on here versus the parenting side because I was more interested in what people’s experiences had been. I’m much more interested to hear from people who had this experience as a kid because my instinct was to say, ‘it’s not a problem unless the kid specifically is asking for help’ whereas my friend felt strongly that it would have positively impacted her life for somebody to say, ‘Hey! Would you like to change this? Here. Let me help you.’
Anonymous
Dear god, please do not introduce these neuroses to your “very early elementary” daughter. What is that, first grade? That is WAY too young and actually makes me extremely sad for your kid. At least, AT LEAST, wait until 4th or 5th grade if you feel you must do this.
Anonymous
It’s not introducing neuroses to teach a kid standard grooming, even in first grade. It’s sparing the kid the neuroses she will develop from being teased for grooming that does not conform to society’s minimum standards.
Ellen
This depends on the culture. It is not clear where you are writing from but in some places, women with a “unibrow” are prized over those with thin eyebrows. In many European countries, women do not shave their legs and underarms, and men prize women who are “natural” this way. Dad remembers his expereience behind the iron curtan where the prettiest women he met had more hair then he did in all of those places. It did not stop him from doing what they did together, and he said it did not take him any time to get used to it. So I say go with what is normal where you live.
Anon
Your friend is right and there is no such thing as paragraph 2.
Senior Attorney
+1
Anon
I was one of those kids. I would help her deal with it. Your friend is right. Having a moustache or unibrow during childhood stinks. It’s better to have a parent who has a gentle, quiet conversation about it and provides the tools to deal with it. I started waxing at 8. No regrets.
OP
Thank you. A pattern I’m noticing is that people who had this experience tend to veer towards wanting a gentle conversation + tools.
Anonymous
Not for first-graders. I didn’t realize that’s how young your daughter was.
anon
Most first graders are 7 and you said you started waxing at 8. That’s not much of a difference.
asdf
I wouldn’t wait for your daughter to approach you, although I really hope she’s too young to be teased. At age 11 I was suddenly subject to significant teasing about unshaved legs. At that age I didn’t realize that my mother shaved her legs and underarms since it was never discussed (although I don’t think it was deliberately hidden). I just thought I was a bit of a freak for having too much hair. Frankly, the teasing also induced shame in me – making me too embarrassed to approach my mother.
anonshmanon
I don’t know if casually changing her appearance but not talking about it is really realistic, sounds like that would be your friend’s fantasy solution. When I was teased in gym class in 5th grade, I asked my mom to get me a razor and she flat out refused. So not only did I have to save my pocket money to get one, but then felt like I need to hide from her that I use it.
I’d say when she signals that she wants to change her appearance, help her to do what she wants to do. Be very intentional with what culture you expose her to (looking at you, women’s magazines which so very subtly and effortlessly suppressed my confidence as an adolescent). I believe that telling her about patriarchal beauty standards and how it’s a choice how much we submit to them and that this choice can change throughout one’s life is a useful conversation to have, even if she will likely opt to conform at this point.
OP
Thank you! The parent in this situation kind of thought she had more time… like, I don’t think the parent thought this would be an issue until middle school but it’s pretty clearly coming up before then.
anon for this
It starts way before middle school. I was teased in second grade for having hairy legs in the early 90s. It started a lifelong anxiety and I started stealing my mom’s razor in third grade. I think of this less as conforming to cultural standards for women and more about fitting in generally – I just had different coloring than 99% of the white kids around me. Honestly, my children might not have the same issue because they will grow up going to a more diverse school with other children who are hairier and they won’t be the only ones.
Anononon
Totally same. I have that light skin/thick black hair combo that makes me a perfect candidate for laser hair removal as an adult (yay!) but was absolute torture from about second grade on. My parents didn’t address it and despite the fact that we were very open in general, my mom had none of the same issues so I had no model for how to deal with it and didn’t even know it was something I could ask about. I just thought I had this amount of hair and that’s how it was and I was going to be teased for the rest of my life. So much teasing. Please, please, PLEASE help your kid out with this.
This is not giving your kid anxiety/body image issues/etc. Her schoolmates will give those to her just fine – there is no way to protect your kid from societal standards of what a person should look like, no matter how wrong those are. This is helping her deal with it.
Anonymous
You absolutely do not do anything to your child’s body without your child’s consent. You do not give your child a beauty standards complex of your own making. This is absurd and you have posted about it before and gotten the same response from me.
Anonymous
OMG stop. This isn’t FGM. Do you not tell your kid to brush her teeth and floss and put on deodorant and use menstrual products? Or is it: endure the cramps — it is how you were made?
Anonymous
Not without talking to them! The suggestion was just casually shave their unibrow without them noticing. No. I don’t think that’s ok.
Anonymous
Precisely. It’s not okay at all.
Anonymous
Yes this.
OP
Nope, that wasn’t me.
This actually came out of a discussion where in women who had never dealt with this issue personally were all team ‘differences are beautiful! Don’t change it until the child asks! Don’t give them a complex!’ while the person who had actually dealt with the issue felt very strongly that their life would have been better if somebody had helped them remove it without making it a Big Deal.
To be clear: we’re not talking about stealth ninja hair removal and I assume there would be some polite age appropriate discussion with consent (some lovely scripts here, thank you!)
Anonymous
Why do you assume that those of us who are criticizing your plan have not gone through the same thing as a child? I did and the only thing that would have made it worse was my parent bringing it up to me before I noticed it myself.
Anon
She asked that question and you didn’t answer it in your first rude response.
Anon
100% deal with it.
Signed, my parents didn’t for me and, so help me god, I will never do that to my daughter.
Anon
I had a unibrow as a kid, my mom always asked if i wanted her to pluck it and i refused because i was afraid of the pain lol. I was bullied a bit at summer camp for it and, eventually, an older cousin plucked it for me. Started waxing right after, probably around 10. I have no regrets about it, but am now (like most women I imagine) very sensitive about keeping up with it.
OP
Friend recommended a tinkle razor as a really low pain/low drama method of hair removal.
(Despite what I apparently communicated, friend did not recommend shaving a toddler’s face in the middle of the night with no explanation. If anybody is still reading this, kiddo started asking about makeup and how some people wear makeup because they enjoy it and because they like how it makes them look. The conversation then went in a direction where it’s pretty clear kiddo is starting to be aware of this but stopped short of saying ‘I want to change this’. As you can see from all these responses, people have wildly different views of what is best – all the way from ‘say nothing and do nothing, you MONSTER to ‘handle it and protect your kid’. I think the chord that’s striking with me is empowering the kid as much as possible, but also not making it a big scary thing. I didn’t expect that this issue would come up before middle school, but apparently when people can only see the top half of your face because of a mask, this becomes a more noticeable issue among the 7 year old crowd.)
Anon
My middle school had a pool and I already had pubic hair. My mom basically said what 9:45 said.
I don’t remember the exact speech but it was hey, this is your body and your hair and you can do whatever you want with it. A lot of people shave what shows in a bathing suit. Some kids might not even have hair there yet and may be mean about it. It is totally up to you whether you shave it or not. Here’s a razor if you want it.
I was very grateful as the boys were merciless if a single pube was showing.
Anonymous
This is the way to handle it.
anon
Bert from Bert and Ernie unibrow checking in. Stylist offered to wax mine when I was in 4th grade tagging along with my mom for a haircut. It is essential to feel normal for me. Don’t torture your kid into keeping some easily-modifiable physical trait that will make them socially ostracized; life is too short and childhood can be cruel.
Anonymous
But the kid has not identified this as a problem. I can’t believe how eager everyone is to pass on their own neuroses and bad experiences to a child who hasn’t brought this up in any way.
Anonymous
I mean, pretending that mean kids aren’t out there isn’t the answer, either. Can’t move to Planet Unibrow even if we wanted to.
Anonymous
Why do you have to have contagious anticipatory anxiety about mean kids? Sounds toxic for your daughter. I didn’t involve my parents in situations with mean kids – I dealt with it myself as most 90s kids did. I’m not saying those were the glory days, but this whole phenomenon of parents swooping in to fix any anticipated slight in advance of it actually happening is new.
Anon
Your parents probably taught you social norms that helped you fit in with other kids – you probably went to school wearing clean clothing that was at least somewhat in style with hair that was combed, right? I don’t think it’s anything new. Maybe the subject matter (eyebrow grooming) isn’t what they taught you, but parents did do things like pluck eyebrows and teach kids to shave in the 90’s.
Anonymous
I don’t know about you, but there is NO WAY IN HELL I would have brought this up to my mom. None whatsoever. And we had a good relationship. But I never shared when I was being teased, and I never, ever initiated a conversation about my body with her. She (gently and lovingly) offered me a razor when other girls my age were starting to shave, she took me to buy bras when that became a need, and she made sure knew about my period and had access to supplies – but there is no way I would have initiated any of these conversations. That was her job. And I think making an opening to talk about this stuff is this mom’s job.
Lilau
I agree with this.
The easy answer here is a gentle conversation, initiated by the parent where the parent explains there is nothing wrong with her child’s facial hair but if child feels the need to change the facial hair (now or in the future) it’s no big deal and parent is supportive. There are a hundred difficult parenting conversations and decisions and this one seems really easy.
emeralds
+1. Even though we overall had a good relationship, my mom was so far on the “I don’t want to bring it up and make emeralds have a complex” side of the equation, that it ended up making me feel like I couldn’t talk to her about personal grooming stuff at all. That wasn’t life-ruining for me by any means, and I managed to figure it all out eventually, but I’d want want something different for my own daughter.
Anon
Ding ding ding! Create opportunities where she feels comfortable talking about it. Give her an opening so it’s easy to talk about if it is bothering her. I have thick eyebrows (not a unibrow, but dark dramatic eyebrows that were not in fashion at the time and when everyone was tweezing their brows to Pamela Anderson style lines) and I remember having some conversations with my mom when I was growing up.
She would basically tell me that I was beautiful and I didn’t need to change a thing, but that if I found myself wanting or thinking about imitating what I saw on celebrities and in magazines to talk to her first. In the end, she took me to someone to do electrolysis to clean them up without changing the shape too dramatically. She’d show me pictures of Ralph Lauren models and we’d talk about how fashions can change but things that emphasize your natural individual beauty will be much more classic. I’m forever grateful that she didn’t leave it to me and my 12 year old friends to secretly go to town with tweezer.
I plan on doing the same thing w my daughter. Like hey, you might start to be interested in makeup soon – if/when you are, let me know and we can go over the basics together and go shop for some appropriate things. Hey you might get your period soon, here’s a pad to keep your backpack just in case of emergency, let me know if you want to talk about anything else.
I really believe the preemptive “hey this May or may not be on your radar yet but I’m happy to talk” is critical in providing an opening
Anonymous
I had a body hair issues my parents refused to deal with, I never mentioned it to them but oh boy was I mercilessly teased. By your metric since I didn’t bring it up my parents were in the right, but I can assure you they weren’t.
anon for this
+1. Same experience for me. I grew up with dark hair/light skin in a light hair/light skin culture and was teased mercilessly. I had intuited that my parents wouldn’t help me (rightly or wrongly), never asked, and so I suffered alone – and as a young teen gave myself chemical burns. I will proactively offer my help to my children so that they know they can always come to me and will make such grooming available to them. Like with haircuts – our family position is it’s your body, your choice. We routinely offer haircuts and kid can say yes or no, no pressure. I wish my parents had offered help in a no pressure, no frills kind of way. I still have hang ups about grooming because of my parents’ ignoring of my situation.
Nudibranch
Me too.
Anon
My mom plucked my eyebrows and it wasn’t a big deal. It was kind of like any other grooming. If your 4 year old has a unibrow I would leave that alone but if it’s like your fifth grader, definitely appropriate to groom facial hair.
OP
Kid is starting to become more appearance aware but has not expressly made a request yet.
Anon
I was one of those kids and making her ask is far more awkward and worse than you offering. Take a page from the poster’s mom above who just introduced things and made it possible. Don’t make a big ole deal with a puberty talk, just low key introduce it and don’t make your daughter bring it up.
Anonymous
Disagree, was one of those kids and would have been 100% mortified if a parent had pointed it out before I noticed it myself. It would have shaved off 1-2 years of innocent childhood from my life and put insecurities in my head at the exact wrong time.
Let your daughter be in charge of her own appearance. She’s not an infant – she’s a person who can manage her own concerns and needs and involve you IF YOU ARE NEEDED. If it becomes an actual problem for her (not a problem you are imagining), it will become obvious at that time.
Anon
It seems fine to me, then. I can’t remember how old I was when I started, maybe second or third grade when my mom plucked mine. I didn’t think it was a big deal, but it was also just a few tweezes to separate it into two and not a full-blown eyebrow shaping. It was an occasional add on to when my mom was blow drying my hair.
Curious
I hit puberty earlier than others and was mortified one day when I wore capris a mind caught several of the nicer “cool” kids staring at my legs. I went home and stole my mom’s razor and then freaked out because she told me never to share razors. To this day she remembers it and wishes she had presented the option earlier. I do, too. I definitely would have told her ewww no way in 6th grade and then taken her up on it in 7th.
Jeffiner
I read somewhere that people can’t “screw society’s X standards” unless that person is already accepted by society. Healthy self-esteem is a choice to conform or to reject society’s beauty standards. Not having the option to deal with the unibrow doesn’t give your child the choice. I don’t know your child’s age, but either have the conversation with her or at least let her know you’re willing to have the conversation. My 5 year old had opinions on what her hair should look like for daycare. Some kids notice these things early.
Anon
I think that is so true. I’ll be honest – I have seen adults (men and women) absolutely tank their careers because they didn’t want to conform to a certain look. You can flout standards when you get into a position of power, but until then either you play the game or pay a price.
Cat
I was in 3rd or 4th grade when a girl who I thought was a friend commented “ew why don’t you shave your legs” – and this was 30 years ago. Teasing has only gotten younger and more sophisticated.
I think a low-pressure conversation (or example grooming) is the way to go.
anon
I just heard about this book. I havent read it, but it might help:
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/52747262-laxmi-s-mooch
Anonymous
Don’t make it a big thing but do help her with it. I’m nearly 50 years old and i still remember a bunch of kids calling me “armpit Brit” at our swimming pool. I didn’t swim with peers again for years. Waiting for the child to come to you and initiate the convo sounds like a great idea on paper–but she may not realize norms until well after those around her already do nor feel comfortable asking you nor even know there is a way to alter things if that is desired (I didn’t realize people shaved–I just thought I was different and in a very bad way). If the goal is making your daughter feel empowered, give her options for grooming and don’t make her carry the burden of recognizing cultural norms and having to blindly navigate this convo.
Carrie
Hair issues destroyed me during childhood. I was clueless, then people made fun of me, then I was too embarrassed to ask my parents. And then even worse, my Dad and brother’s made fun of me a bit too when I asked for a razor. Good times.
Tinkle razors are the best, and such an easy solution here. I totally agree with starting the conversation early, by just letting her watch what you do. You can bring it up as a “it’s up to you” if you want one brow or two, and just let her know she can come to you at anytime for help.
Anon
I would approach it as being like hair products: not necessary but these things are out in the world if you want to use them.
Anonymous
Would recommend the book «Gross anatomy» by Mara Altman for this subject. It’s very US-centric in it’s description of cultural norms, and very anecdotal, but in your situation you might find the perspectives useful.
The title is tounge-in-cheek, The book is partly about shame, but not shaming.
Anonymous
You can’t raise your child to be a pinnacle of self-esteem if you let her get bullied for flouting society’s grooming standards because you forced, or encouraged, her to keep a unibrow. If it’s her choice to be Frida Kahlo, fine.
Anonymous
So I was a pretty hair kid with thick eyebrows and a unibrow. My mom didn’t really do much about it because she has never been much into high maintenance beauty (the woman has never dyed her hair or worn more than mascara). It was also the time when skinny brows were all the rage. In my dumb child brain, I thought you got skinny eyebrows by shaving half your eyebrows off. And not like top and bottom. I’m talking the “start” of my eyebrow was halfway across my eye after I got done with it.
Cue some very awkward tears and growing out phase after which my mom took me to get my eyebrows properly waxed once and then taught me how to pluck them.
I have thick natural brows now, but I didn’t want them when I was a kid. I also think if my mom had mentioned it to me before I destroyed my eyebrows, I would have been mortified.
So two lessons: let your kid bring it up if it bothers her/him and keep the razors away. You have to balance being sensitive and getting ahead of it with potentially giving your kid a complex that their body is wrong.
hairy anon
So I was a VERY hairy child (who has grown into a hairy adult). My mom removed her own facial hair (unibrow, upper lip) and never brought it up with me until high school, and even then framed it as, “your body, your choice, but if your choice is to remove/bleach this hair, let me know so I can help you do it safely.” I appreciate that she explicitly said it was my choice. Sometimes I exercised that choice and sometimes I didn’t and my mom never made me feel like I was less beautiful when I went through my no shaving phase or chose not to wax my eyebrows (she approached make up similarly as well, despite always wearing make up herself). If my mom had brought it up earlier, I definitely would have internalized it as my body was “wrong” in some way, rather than it being a choice for me to make. I personally don’t think it really matters one way or another (and you’ve had posters comment what did/didn’t work for them), as whatever approach you take may not be exactly what your child needs. I think the main thing is the messaging and keeping it from being framed as “this is wrong with you, here’s how to fix it.”
Relatedly, I had a school friend who was Sikh, and devout Sikhs don’t remove their hair. Her family was very devout, so she wasn’t allowed to shave/wax. Our classmates did make mean comments, but I remember her as a generally bad*ss chick who did what she wanted and didn’t care what others thought. I even remember her dating a boy not from her faith for a bit despite having hairy legs. We’ve lost touch, but I’ve wondered how her parents handled the topic of body hair. My friend didn’t wear super revealing clothes, but definitely wore dresses and shorts where one could easily see she didn’t shave her legs. I wonder where that level of confidence came from.
Alanna of Trebond
I am late to this, but I had a unibrow and a mustache until middle school and I was bullied for it. I think it was really helpful for my development to be bullied and made me a more confident person. BUT I know usually (in non-COVID times) have my eyebrows threaded and get rid of my mustache.
Alanna of Trebond
Typo – should have written “now” instead of “know.”
Anonymous
Our friends and family have been taking the pandemic seriously and have severely curtailed our lives since early March. My ex BIL and his new wife both are in healthcare and deal with very sick people in a hospital and aren’t taking it seriously at all (travel, restaurants, kids in school and sports) and have now missed their shit appointments (on purpose per FB, you just can’t trust a rushed vaccine). I am so stinking mad at them — it is amazing to me that they and their kids haven’t killed us all off yet (and yet you can’t visit a dying loved one because you might be a vector). I get that we can’t lock down essential front line healthcare workers but I feel that they should have their licenses yanked or at least suspended for being so reckless. It isn’t like this is March and they can plead ignorance. Dude has a masters in public health (among others). Stabby Monday to start the year with.
Anon
Since he’s your ex BIL, can’t you just cut them out of your life including facebook? I would. There are a lot of strangers acting irresponsible and it might help to think of him as a stranger.
Anonymous
No doubt he is. He is only a friend from before (not sure why he hasn’t unfriended me, but my nieces and nephews aren’t old enough to be online and I do like to see pictures, but I’m not down for the screed). My sister is worried sick that if she gets sick she will lose her job and her kids are such vectors that our parents won’t see her until everyone gets shots. So if they kept their crazy to themselves, fine, but that isn’t how this works.
Anon
The unfriend button works both ways.
Anonymous
Your ex BIL sounds a lot like a stranger you don’t need to know anything about. And as a public health issue, actually forcing people to get a brand new vaccine is bad policy.
Ribena
Some of my medical friends have been on this end of things too. I wonder if they don’t realise how much the rest of us have *stopped*.
Anon
Is it possible that they are fairly knowledgeable and actually have a more realistic idea about this all then you do? I know a number of healthcare workers, and I don’t know a single one who would meet your ideals here. Trying to control people like this is a recipe for misery. And the last thing we need right now is to limit the pool of healthcare workers by taking away licenses of anyone who dares to put their kids in school.
Anonymous
IDK but my non health care friends are generally behaving better than my healthcare friends, who must think that their insta pics are invisible to the rest of us. I wonder that when they do get a vulnerable person sick that their social media feeds will be exhibit A in getting them and their employer sued. We’d be livid if nursing home workers lived like this but neohrologists and OBs are OK to party on I guess.
Anonymous
Nursing home workers do live like this you’re just not friends with them.
Anonymous
I think they maybe have to to survive. But my surgeon friend does not have to fly to Vail and send pictures of every meal they get and also their kids ice hockey team.
Anon
I think it is hard for people that are already always exposed to not feel like it doesn’t really matter what they do in their personal life as they get so much exposure at work anyway, what’s a little more.
I don’t agree with it but I think it is basic human nature. They think they are more likely to get it from a patient than on vacation. They don’t think about what if they get it on vacation and give it to a patient because they consider their work exposure far more risky.
Anonymous
Do they really want to double their workload when they can’t get a nurse because so many people are on exposure lockdown or are quarantining themselves?! This seems like a dangerous game of musical chairs.
Curious
Anon at 10:06 exactly. My friend in health care also gets tested very frequently, so he’s confident he’s ok. But the fact that these people refused the vaccine tells me something else is going on; there’s political misinformation at play in addition to stress. My cousin is an ER nurse and was elated when the vaccine came to his hospital in DC.
Anon
@10:17 – 10:06 here. I don’t see this with people directly treating COVID patients. It’s people removed from that disaster but still having many high risk interactions through work. So doctors and nurses in fields not treating COVID, dentists and staff, police officers, EMTs.
Even among my more cautious friends, they are starting to plan trips as they get vaccinated. They look more to the risk of them catching it and way less at the risk of them bringing it elsewhere.
Personally, I think it all boils down to humans being inherently selfish by nature, even if just subconsciously. As we discussed here before, people were willing to wear masks when it was thought to help them (and they were scarce and supposed to be saved) but now that they are plentiful and the science is a little gray on if it protects you or others more, more people don’t want to wear them.
Trust me, this frustrates me to no end because if people would just get with the program, we could be back to near normal by now.
Anon
My ICU nurse friend had an indoor/outdoor wedding for 150 in September, and has taken multiple weekend trips involving flights. She may be the extreme but I generally agree with Anon at 9:47. They have a different risk tolerance. My sister, a pediatrician, is on vacation in Florida with her middle school kids. They flew. Other medical professionals I know are similarly taking fewer precautions than the norm for this website (and maybe even fewer precautions than the norm outside this bubble).
Anon
I had a tough evaluation and am feeling a little uncertain about how to proceed. I was surprised by some critics from certain partners and am concerned that they don’t want to work with me anymore. What next steps should I take, and how do I get over this mental block?
Anonymous
Step one through ten: find a new job
Step eleven: honest self assessment about what you could be doing differently
Anon
More details needed. Where are you in your career? Is this the up or out review? Are you just starting and getting some needed feedback?
Anonymous
If you are higher than a 4th year, definitely start looking.
AFT
Ditto this, but also realize that it’s in a partner’s interest to be much more critical towards senior associates as they don’t want to promote a lot of people.
Anon
To clarify, it’s not an up or out place like biglaw.
Anonymous
Start looking, and start over with a clean slate elsewhere. If you have a trusted mentor get advice on what to do differently next job.
Anon
Hi all, any specific advice on how to develop a plan to address performance issues going forward (other than finding another job)?
Anonymous
Nope. You didn’t tell us what the issues are!
Cat
You’re going to have to figure out how to fix your reputation by demonstrating you took the feedback to heart and are working on it. If people aren’t willing to work with you again, then that’s going to be exponentially harder. Hence the suggestions to dust off your resume.
Curious
Where I work, we want you to succeed and will give you honest feedback in hope you can turn it around. What’s critical is demonstrating that you accept the feedback (the ones who don’t are gone quickly), asking questions of your boss to understand the specifics of the coaching, and then immediately showing improvement. Ideally you get coaching from a neutral third party to support.You should be regularly checking in with your manager to see whether what you are doing is addressing the concerns.
Curious
Ah — and yes, if it’s true that people don’t want to work with you anymore, dust off your resume. But I read your comment to say you were worried that was true because you got constructive criticism, not that it was true. It will be important to separate your fears from reality in this process. If you trust your manager, I’d ask them point blank if this means the partners don’t want to work with you. You’ll make better decisions if you know where you stand.
Anon
Thank you. This is really helpful.
Senior Attorney
I am here to tell you it is possible to come back from a tough evaluation. I had one when I was a newly lateraled junior associate in a medium-sized firm, and I took the feedback to heart and ended up making partner five or so years later. (This was in the days of 7-year partnership tracks.) If you really want to stay and make it work, be laser focused on the things they criticized and make a very big of correcting those things.
But first, I think it’s okay to take a day or so to lick your wounds. These things sting!!
Anon
Thank you for the encouragement!
Anonymous
If FB is suggesting a friend for you, but you were friends with that person, does it mean that you were I friended at some point? My cousins wife was my friend (and is friends with tons of my friends), but is now suggested as a friend to me. I friended her (or vice versa) after they got married and she is the one who posts more than he does. I don’t want to make a fuss but miss seeing them and can’t really see them in person now anyway. Nothing felt awkward and then I noticed this.
Cat
Probably… if she’s being suggested as a friend, you can click over to her profile (she won’t know that you did this). If there’s an option to “add friend” then you know you were unfriended.
Curious
I also wouldn’t take it too personally… I periodically just prune down my friends to a small number of people I see or talk to regularly in order to control my privacy. I’ve gotten re add requests from some after we get back in touch and added them.
Anon
It could be her profile is spoofed too. This was a common scam. See if you already have her on your friends list. If so, the profile you are seeing may be a dupe.
AFT
That’s what I would suggest. See if the new profile has very many contacts and how old it is. If it’s recent and has a low friend count/doesn’t have friends you would expect, I would think it was spoofed.
Thanks, it has pockets!
Maybe. It’s also possible they deleted or abandoned an old account and got a new one.
Anon
This has definitely happened occasionally among my “friends” group
Undecided
Happy 2021, all!
The new year has made me think about where I am, workwise. I’ve been in the same role for about 4.5 years now. I am potentially interested in moving to the next level at my company, but am not entirely sure what it takes to get there. I have the feeling that the answer is going to be a lot more work and directly managing people, neither of which I am really all that interested in, truth be told. Is it alright to ask my boss what the next steps would be, AND to say, after hearing what they are, “thank you for sharing! That’s really not for me after all”? Or should I only ask if I’m quite sure I’m interested in moving up?
Anon
I had that conversation, although I knew what the answers would be. I shared that I was not interested in ABC, but believed I offer unique value because of XYZ. I let that my supervisor sit with that. A few months later, she came back to me and offered a promotion (newly created position, with salary increase) that matched my strengths and interests. It’s worth exploring . . . .
pugsnbourbon
I’d ask in the context of an annual review or scheduled 1:1, but strike the “that’s not really for me” part. You might change your mind, you might want to start job-searching, but don’t show your had to your boss right this second.
CHL
Great that you’re thinking about this! I think it’s always good to have a conversation with your boss and /or mentors or people you admire in your company. Given what you’ve shared, it might be phrased more like ‘thinking about my growth and development opportunities’ or ‘options for thinking about next steps in my career’ which could be about moving ‘up’ or as you described, if you don’t want to manage people, might be about expanded project opportunities or moving around or whatever. I think you might also benefit from thinking about what’s important to you – is it money, status, power, mastery of your craft, work-life balance, etc. Have fun!
Anon
Can you get a mentor? This discussion is perfect for that.
Anonymous
I was reflecting on 2020 the other day and one thing I realized (and talked over with two of my best friends, who shared similar sentiments) is that I have grown a lot better about setting and protecting my own boundaries. There were SOOO many moments this year where people asked me to do something I wasn’t comfortable with – bachelorette party in August, family meet-up for Thanksgiving, working in the office in mid-March rather than at-home…in the past, I would have found it almost impossible to stand up to anyone and assert myself, but this year, I guess driven by necessity, I did it each time, protected myself, and the world didn’t collapse around me. It’s a reassuring feeling to know that I can stand up for myself politely but firmly and come out the other side with relationships intact (and maybe even stronger?) Anyone else have any realizations/personal growth moments this last year?
Curious
This is huge :) congratulations!
Anon
I realized that what was missing from my life was enthusiasm and part of that was a choice I was making each day. I’m trying to make a conscious effort to approach my work and chores with enthusiasm. It’s still a struggle but it’s amazing the difference it makes to my mental health.
Just as an example, I’m an attorney and discovery is just the bane of my existence. Now, before tackling some interrogatories, I’ll stop and think for a minute about how my client was wronged and how I have this unique role where I can help him make it right. One of the steps to making things right is telling his story through interrogatories. So, instead of groaning and saying uhhhhh why do they want so many medical records??? This is so much work? I think great, we have nothing to hide, see how awesome my case is.
My friend who is a life coach calls this “flipping the script.”
Anonymous
I love this! What a great mindset.
cara
I love this attitude! Some may thing that it is Pollyanna-ish but there is a reason for the annoying work, and I think its just so much better for me mentally, personally, to focus on the reason why rather than focus on how irritating it is.
anon
I really like this. I could stand to incorporate a more joyful/enthusiastic mindset.
Anonymous
I realized that I’m much more resilient than I knew, and that the issue with my being messy and overweight wasn’t not having enough time at home, and that I’m depressed. So this year I’m taking on antidepressants, therapy, and meditation.
Curious
Getting treatment is huge! Congrats!
Vicky Austin
I was in therapy for much of this year, just working through some crap. It gave me the confidence and tools to communicate better with my husband. Our relationship hasn’t changed that much on the outside, but the comfort I feel with him is worlds away from a year ago. And I feel freaking awesome about it.
Also, I really worked on my relationship with my sister, and she sent us the most thoughtful Christmas gift and I cried so hard knowing that she put so much thought into it. Another thing that is worlds away from a year ago.
Cat End of Life
I have a 13 year old cat who has cancer and, while she has been litter box trained her whole life, now she’s only using it about 25% of the time (for poop, specifically, she always pees in there). Has anyone dealt with end of life care for a pet and had it be less frustrating? I am cleaning up 3 floor-poops a day! I don’t think it’s a “can’t reach the litterbox” issue, as the places she poops are close to the litterbox. All of our boxes are downstairs and she typically spends time upstairs. My only concern with moving one of them upstairs for her is that she will start to poop all over upstairs as well. I don’t think it’s a cleanliness issue, although it could be. I have started to change the box every other day (we use wood pellet litter).
Any other ideas?
BB
Our senior cat had some similar issues in her last few months. For her, it had to do with the shape of the litter box and the placement of the lid. For whatever reason (probably arthritis), she couldn’t get all the way in to squat to poop, but could do it to pee. We somewhat fixed it by taking the lid off the box, and we also put rubber litter mats all around it so at least if she missed, it wouldn’t be on the floor.
Op
I might get a senior litter box. I already removed the lid from one and that helped (months ago), but the other two still have lids. Maybe I’ll remove the lids for the other two and order a new shorter/bigger one in case. She’s not “missing”, per se, it’s some feet away, but thanks.
Lily
What kind of cancer? If it hurts for her to poop, that could explain it. She associates the pain with the litter box so she avoids it – it’s not rational but I think pretty common. Are her poops really hard? If so, can you talk to your vet about fixing that?
OP
It is GI related so you’re probably right. I wonder if she could go on pain medication (currently she’s only on steroids) to reduce that issue. Her poo is very soft splats, so it’s not related to it being hard. Thank you.
Anon
I agree with the advice to check in with the vet. Veterinarians are typically heart broken whenever someone gives up on an animal over litterbox issues and often have many, many strategies in mind to try.
For clean up, I recommend the product Kids’n’Pets (cheap effective enzyme cleanser that doesn’t smell too strong and is safe to use around pets).
Nudibranch
An idea for you: You might try a temporary box. If you have access to a copier paper box (i.e. 10-12 reams size), the lids make easy temporary cat litter boxes. Put a mat, junk towel, or newspapers underneath and then litter inside and see if the cat will use it. The sides are short and easy to access. You can just throw the whole thing away when it’s no longer “scoopable”.
OP
Love kids n pets, but I can’t find it in my typical shops around me! I do use another enzyme cleaner, though. I am waiting on the vet’s follow-up call from everyone’s advice yesterday – thank you.
OP
and Nudibranch – a temp box might be just the thing. I think I have seen temp boxes (litter trays) in the store which would solve the clay problem, the ‘upstairs litterbox’ problem, and the low litterbox problem.
Anon
No ideas, but I am so sorry for your cat (and you!). I have a 15 year old cat so I know it is a hard time.
Anon
We started having litter box issues with an otherwise healthy cat – urine only. Prescription food solved most of it, but it wasn’t completely resolved until we switched from the wood pellet litter we had always used to a clumping clay litter. Our vet said some cats’ preferences change over time and the clay is more like natural conditions. The switch worked like a charm – maybe worth a try?
Op
She’s got RX food already, but you might be right about the clay. I really hate it as it tracks but it’s better than poop on the floor!
Annonnn
Ok, I’m about a year out post-partum. I had diastasis recti and pelvic floor issues (mostly just leaking when running/jumping) and I’ve been going to a therapist that specializes in both since September. While I have seen very noticeable improvement in my core strength and have decreased my waist size by an inch, I still have the pooch and I still leak when I run/jump. I’m doing my core strengthening exercises daily, and do my kegels daily (though only once most days, I can’t seem to get in more than that). Do I need to just give it more time? Or accept that this is my body now? I’m 42 so I realize that things won’t go back to my before body, and that’s not what I’m aiming for. I just want to see more progress on the pooch decreasing and not leak when I run/jump! Thoughts or experiences to share?
Anon
Everyone I’ve heard of needed surgery to really get rid of the diastasis recti pooch
The Lone Ranger
Check out Lauren Ohayon’s Restore Your Core. She has a program that you can purchase, but also has a ton of free material. She’s on insta, Facebook, and has a website. Her Facebook group is an amazing, accepting, warm and friendly group. Kegels may not be what you need. She’s all about a functional core, and she doesn’t do before/after shots, but she is about healing and body acceptance, and many women have been able to take up running and jumping after going through her program.
Anonymous
I had the leaking issue, did physical therapy that made no difference at all for me, and eventually had surgery to correct it – a mid-urethral sling, done by a urogynecologist. Even if you don’t want to have surgery, there are other options–eg., injectables that provide some temporary benefit–so please talk to a doctor. It was a very easy recovery for me and absolutely life changing. I would do it again in a heartbeat.
Anon
The leaking should have stopped by now. You should see another physical therapist. The other one is harder.
Anon
Talk to me about cleaning out fridge/freezer…how often do you “sweep”and would you keep things like frozen fruit that you put in smoothies last summer? We don’t make smoothies in cold weather…what are your criteria for keeping? Dumping
Cat
it is super rare that we throw out anything that has been frozen, but about twice a year we defrost & clean the chest freezer and at that point take informal inventory (like – oh wow, didn’t realize there were 4 servings of lasagna buried at the bottom, let’s get those into the dinner rotation).
Vicky Austin
+1, this is how I do it.
Anon
+2 except that twice a year is more than we usually manage
Anonymous
Bad freezer burn = dump.
Anon
Agree with response above- once it’s been frozen, it almost never gets thrown out, but it’s good to go through periodically and remember things that need to get used up, especially with a chest freezer where it’s easy for things to get buried at the bottom. If you don’t make smoothies in the winter, use the fruit in something else- pancakes, muffins, a crisp, etc. The only reason we’d throw it out would be that we bought something we hated so much that we couldn’t force ourselves to finish it or if the freezer had lost power and thawed to the point it wasn’t safe to eat.
anonshmanon
+1. Adding oatmeal, cake, fruit crumbles, pies, banana bread and yoghurt as options to use up frozen fruit.
Anonymous
Berry compote is an easy way to use up frozen berries of all types. It’s great on oatmeal, pancakes, and waffles.
irritability
Ugh, so I have struggled with anger/irritability for a good portion of my life. I am super sensitive and just get irritated with people (everyone! coworkers, kids, husband) quite easily. I have become good at not acting on these feeling 99.9% of the time, but still struggle once in a while where I will lose it on someone. And even if I don’t act on these feelings, I still feel them and it sucks. Has anyone else struggled with this? I just feel like I am way more sensitive than most and take everything personally/get hurt easily. I know it is irrational even when it’s happening, but I still feel that way a lot.
It will be really silly things such as feeling like a coworker is rescheduling things a lot/not being respectful of my time, having my husband say something slightly not nice, etc.. I get super super angry at these situations and then resent people or once in a while if it’s irritating enough will even lose it on them.
Anonymous
Irritability can be a sign of depression. I’d talk to your doctor about taking a depression screening.
Anon
That’s how I’d describe my untreated depression. Life’s grand with medication.
Anon
+1
Anonymous
Have you ever sought treatment? Anger and irritability is a depression symptom, especially in women. It’s worth discussing with your doctor and considering medication and/or therapy.
pugsnbourbon
Therapy. Irritability is a sneaky symptom of both anxiety and depression. Even if you’re not anxious or depressed, therapy can help you figure out the root causes of your anger and develop tools to reduce it.
(This is not to say that anger is always bad! Sometimes being angry is justified but it doesn’t sound like that’s the case here.)
Anon
+1 – for me, irritability is a sign my anxiety disorder is flaring. And that I’m probably really overwhelmed by feeling terrified all of the time, and desperately want to feel better. Possibly also that I am grieving something.
Anon
Yes, for me it’s important to get enough sleep and regular exercise. It’s really hard to do with kids. I make a schedule with my husband about who will get up early on which days – winging it wasn’t working for me because I would feel guilty and wake up and help my husband when I didn’t need to or I’d lay in bed and think about how I should be getting up. Maybe I am depressed, I don’t know, but sleep helps.
Betterandbetter
Not to be this person but is there any chance it’s related to your menstrual cycle? If you get physically irritated at things that intellectually you know are irrational that may suggest something hormonal. People think of PMS as short lived but PMDD can cover an obnoxiously long period of time and it can get worse as you get older. I finally sought treatment for what I now know is PMDD and the associated insomnia because over time I went from having 4 very bad days a month to basically three weeks of moderately bad symptoms. Also being on the mini pill or another progesterone only birth control can makes things worse in terms of mood.
Other folks would probably also recommend therapy- and that’s probably a good idea. Irritability is a less well known symptom of depression- and clearly you don’t feel good about the tendency and that’s worth addressing but if its something where you have the skills to restrain yourself in the moment most of the time and there are times you just can’t- that may be a sign that there is physical factor. Could be hormonal or even just a blood sugar thing. I’m naturally really impatient but usually keep my temper. The times I have lost my temper over tiny things have always been at the wrong time of my cycle, or when I was chronically tired or hungry.
anon
+1. Side note, but I would love to know more about your PMDD strategies. PMDD is a huge trigger for me, as is underlying anxiety. If I start flying off the handle and feeling hurt for no particular reason, one of those things is usually happening in the background.
Anon
Different Anon here, but I found the recommendations in Lara Briden’s Period Repair Manual lifechanging for PMDD and often recommend consulting the book. The mini pill was definitely a bad experience (progestin =/= progesterone for me), and I was struggling to get suggestions other than “let’s keep trying different formulations of birth control” from my gynecologist. The interventions I needed were also not a big deal to try (e.g., zinc, with doctor’s supervision–turns out I was deficient on testing anyway!–and methylfolate; we considered prescription Deplin but OTC ended up working fine).
Betterandbetter
As the other poster who replied to you said, really basic stuff like correcting nutritional deficiencies is huge for any health issue but people often overlook their role in emotional stuff. I also happened to have heavy periods (not everyone with pmdd does but I did) and I was chronically anemic too. Turns out iron deficiency also makes you cranky and anxious. You can be on the best SSRI or SNRI in the world but that’s not going to do much if your body doesn’t have enough raw material to make the neurotransmitters. So getting screened for deficiencies is important. In terms if practical strategies- honestly just knowing when its going to happen or knowing that it is a potential explanation for what’s happening is really helpful so if you aren’t tracking your cycle already you should. This may be obvious but I never had to track my cycle for fertility or contraception so I didn’t start keeping track until I had an issue. If your cycle is predictable then you can do your best to manage your schedule so that you aren’t doing anything taxing on what’s likely to be a bad day.
But practically what made the most difference to me was getting on the right birth control for hormonal regulation.(i was already in therapy and on antidepressants ) I know other women who had hormonal IUD’s removed and it helped and some women get them inserted and feel better. I happen to be on the seasoniq generic and while it hasn’t completely regulated the bleeding I sleep alot better and no longer have random days a month where I feel like life isn’t worth living for no reason . I’m sorry you are going through this. It’s terrible. I didn’t realize until it was treated how much of my life was eaten up by it.
anon
yeah, I have struggled with this. I’m pretty sure in my case it’s not depression for a wide range of reasons. I just…had a lot of reasons to be angry (or feel alone, abandoned, whatever) as a child/young person and I carried that with me for a long time. if you think if could be depression, or if you think therapy would be helpful, then I definitely think you should do it.
that said, for me things changed slowly as I grew up as I (1) found different ways to process and manage my feelings and (2) made a concerted effort to change my thought patterns and “flipping the script” as one poster called it above. It also helped that it was just exhausting being irritable all the time, haha.
Tactically, here are the things I do that I find helpful: I’ve always journaled a lot, and whether it’s actually writing, thinking to myself, or saying something out loud to a sympathetic loved one, naming the feeling and why you’re feeling that way goes SO FAR in diffusing the sentiment. If I’m still mad, then I’ll make a concerted effort to flip the script. like (“I’m just so frustrated my husband did X. It just feels so thoughtless and makes me feel like I don’t matter that much. But I guess to be fair, it’s a reasonable thing to do from his point of view/with the information he had at the time. Life just sucks sometimes and building a good marriage is hard! but it’s worth doing.” I’ve also really figured out what helps keep me balanced. For me, I work out a ton. trying to force myself into calmness and zen just doesn’t work for me. So I’m really into boxing and long distance running and I often come home from those activities feeling pretty good even if I was angry the whole time. sleep, healthy eating etc are also really important.
I am actually pretty well balanced and happy with my life, and that this point the anger and irritability comes around only once in a while. I say this because sometimes one should be worried about depression and get help, sometimes we could all use therapy to help us get to the root of why we do what we do and develop the tools to deal with life. But also, honestly life is hard, and sometimes it’s just that and not depression. Up to you know know what it is for you, and whether you’ve got to the bottom of your issues or not and whether you need help doing it. but you are completely not alone.
pink
Love this thoughtful comment!
I also wanted to add:
1. when I was young, I was irritated a lot because I was a year older than my classmates and matured faster. being surrounded by nerds and mellowing out in my 30s has made me grow younger and I’m much happier.
2. lack of sleep and too much work leads to me to full on irritability
3. the week before my period I occasionally find myself irritated beyond usual for things (then I’ll remember my period is due)
Anon
For me, it is 50% depression and 50% hormones. I take Seasonique for the hormones (three months continuous birth control) and Wellbutrin for the depression.
Anytime my hormones are off, it immediately comes back. I felt that way recently and realized, oops, missed a day of BC. Luckily, I am not on it for its intended purpose.
Anon
I spent some time noticing what my triggers were and it helped me a lot.
Typically I am very irritable when I:
– am late for something (e.g. trying to rush kid to soccer class and he isn’t ready and cant find his shoes and I yell)
– am trying to multitask (e.g. heat up lunch for kids while on a conference call for work)
– have a lot of auditory input (kids and/or husband are asking me questions at the same time or there is music/TV playing)
– it has to be said, the week or so before my period
As of now I haven’t progressed beyond noticing and actually formulated an action plan to control my irritability. But – it’s a start and every time it happens I find it falls into one of these buckets. The pandemic reduced instances of the first kind a lot, but increased the second and the others are stable. Planning better and laying things out ahead of time for the first and second ones makes a difference.
Anonymous
Would appreciate help selecting an ergonomic keyboard. I currently use the wireless keyboard that came with my iMac a few year ago. From what I’ve read, it will be harder for me to adapt to a split keyboard than to a one-piece keyboard, but if your experience has been different, please let me know. One model recommended by some sites, the Logitech 860, has the number pad on the keyboard, which I don’t need, and that setup increases the separation of the keyboard from the mouse. I’ve read many reviews, but IMO men’s posture and hand size are different than women’s, so I’d be grateful for advice from this group. So, basically I want wireless, no number pad, and probably a not-totally split keyboard. Thanks!
Anon
I think Microsoft makes great ergo keyboards. I have a wireless one (the Sculpt) and it’s comfortable and not too big. It has a detached number pad which I don’t use.
pnw anon
Not your question, but I use an Evoluent ergonomic mouse and it is the very best. It’s in my top 10 desert-island-wired-for-electricity items. There are 6 programmable buttons, and it is made to keep your wrist in a handshake/thumb up position. I have right-click, left-click, double-click, F2, copy and paste all at the touch of a button. I have one at work and one at home. I would have one at a vacation home if i had a vacation home. I would use one with a fox, i would use one on a box.
Anon
Thanks for this recommendation. Going on a hunt to purchase now.
Anon
Curses. I need left hand, small size, wireless. It doesn’t look like that combination exists.
pnw anon
Darn it!!
Recommendation Letters
I’m applying for a finance job at a school district that requires letters of recommendation as part of the application. I’ve never come across this before, although I know it’s common for teachers. It feels unreasonable to ask people to take the time to write a letter for me – I’m not even sure yet if I really want this job and I definitely don’t want to alert coworkers that I’m applying elsewhere! I know the answer is probably that I just need to suck it up and get the letters if I want to apply. However, I do have letters of recommendation that I used when I applied for a professional certification recently. Would it be totally unreasonable to supply those letters along with contact information for the writers and a note that they can be contacted if my application moves forward?
Anon
This is a school district, so: government. And governmental hiring practices tend to be bureaucratic and one-size-fits-all. You need to provide letters of recommendation to get yourself past the initial screening. If you are applying online, you may not have the option to put limits on the rec letters you provide. Check out the application process carefully before you make a decision.
Anon
Government hiring usually means that if you don’t follow the rules exactly, you won’t qualify. As someone in academia, I hate this policy for all the reasons you mention- it makes it really hard when you want to move on without telling everyone you’re looking for a job and most of the positions I apply for get hundreds of applicants, so it’s a huge waste of time for everyone, but applications without letters don’t make it to the hiring committee and they need to come in exactly as asked by the online application system. You can try asking someone in HR, but don’t be surprised if you don’t get a response or if it raises enough red flags that they toss your application.
Anonymous
Those of you who have figured out how to folder work email – teach me your ways! I’m at a small firm, but get upwards of 100+ substantive emails a day. I don’t have auto-docket or management software. Do you folder them in outlook? In the client file on the server and then delete?
Anon
I sort by subject and drop them in client folder in Outlook. When the case ends, I put a .pst file w/ that folder on the server. For super important emails, I cc my assistant and she saves it to the correspondence file on the server.
Anon
Anything else I can do for SAD? I already take a pretty hefty dose of Zoloft, I use a sun lamp in the morning, take an assortment of vitamins, exercise ~4 times per week. But OMG, I am SO tired and just want to stay in bed til May.
Anon
Are you sure the Zoloft is making you less tired and not more? (Zoloft makes me very, very tired! I do better with something like Wellbutrin personally.)
Anon
I’ve thought about switching because my energy levels are so low and this winter I can hardly get anything done, but agh, the horrors of switching…
Anon
I think often they just add Wellbutrin to begin with rather than switching! Basically it would make sense to me to check with your psychiatrist to say that whatever you’re doing, it’s not enough, and see what next steps might be.
Anon
This. I had to switch for the same reasons and they had me take both while I was switching. The taper was easy that way. I didn’t stop the Zoloft until the Wellbutrin was already built up in my system.
No Problem
Have you had your thyroid levels checked? What about vitamin D and iron? You said you take a variety of vitamins, but that might not be enough to counteract an actual deficiency if it’s big enough.
And if you’re not doing it already, definitely get outside every day in the sunlight for at least 10-20 minutes. It might not seem like it would matter if it’s cloudy, but it does.
But also? I think this is sort of normal this time of year. Holidays are over, so there’s nothing really to look forward to until the end of winter. I’m someone who hates winter and I always feel this way January-March, SAD or not.
Anon
Did anyone else listen to the Trump Georgia phone call? I have finally understood that Trump actually believes his own base’s conspiracy theories. His confidence is astounding and he uses the argument “it’s all over the internet” as evidence. I am now wondering who is actually behind churning these out because clearly he is on the hook of a phenomenal scam unless his echo chamber is just that loud.
Anon
It’s very interesting…I didn’t hear how the story and recording got to WaPo…does anyone know?
AnonATL
I would bet my house that someone in Raffensperger’s office recorded and released it. Trump’s been actively trying to strong arm him and Kemp (neither of which I’m particularly fond of) for months. Now everyone can hear it for themselves. Whether that makes a bit of difference is another question….
Anonymous
I don’t know that anyone has admitted to releasing it, but Raffensperger’s office has confirmed they started recording all such calls after Lindsey Graham asked them to find a way to discount properly cast votes. If Trump and his team were surprised that there is a recording on the GA side, they are fools. Well, they are fools either way . . .
Anon
Link if anyone else wants to endure. I am very impressed with the Georgia team for holding their ground. I’m glad to work for a company where someone using Trump’s persuasion tactics would be promptly managed out.
https://www.nbcnews.com/video/full-phone-call-trump-pressures-georgia-secretary-of-state-to-recount-election-votes-98732101751
Anonymous
It’s terrifying and we aren’t talking about it enough.
Anon
You’ve been able to witness this for four years and are only just now figuring this out? And to answer your second question, Russia.
cara
No, the GA official leaked it. Think and read before you speak.
Anon
She’s answering the question of who’s behind the phenomenal scam.
anonshmanon
Similar to the OP, I have never in these four long years been able to definitively decide whether Trump really believes the incredible stuff he says or whether he is a real con artist. But maybe making yourself believe unbelievable things so that you can convince others is the ultimate con.
Anon
OP – yes! I always thought it was a con artist gig. Now, I think (Russia? China?) has a collar around his neck and he’s just defending what he thinks is the truth!!
Senior Attorney
OMG right? It’s beyond horrifying.
Also: He sounds like a mob boss. Probably because he is one.
Anon
yes. i can kind of understand how people voted for him in 2016 (though i strongly detest him), can barely understand how people voted for him in 2020, but now I’m just at a loss and truly do not understand how you want someone who asks someone else to do something so illegal to be your president. people who are so worried about their loss of liberty from being asked to wear a mask…what about the loss of liberty from having a leader who thinks it’s ok to rig an election? Remember when people were up in arms over Hilary’s emails. Seems like nothing compared to this
Anon
I know way too many Trump supporters. They think the election was rigged against him. They think this is what the phone call is about.
anona
The conspiracy theories are his creation that he feeds to his base. He has planted these seeds about “rigged elections” even before he was ever elected!
Senior Attorney
The conspiracy theories are his creation that he feeds to his base. He has planted these seeds about “rigged elections” even before he was ever elected!
No Problem
Don’t forget that he went on and on about the three million “illegal” votes in the 2016 election that gave Clinton the popular vote win. He did indeed plant the seeds of the “rigged election” conspiracy theories…about a race that he WON.
Anon
Mary Trump’s book made me understand where Trump’s personality issues come from. He was basically abused as a child and forced to win at all costs, even through cheating and lying, or he would be berated. It doesn’t excuse his adult behavior but answers my question of “how could an adult act like that?”
anon
And/or he’s just a narcissist. I worked for a person like him once. The similarities are eery. Grandiosity and megalomania combined with deep insecurity, casting blame on everyone else, revisionist history/plain old gaslighting, paranoia and anxiety and belief that everyone was conspiring against him, completely unrealistic assessment of his own intelligence and abilities, kind to people who “help” him until a switch flips/they are no longer useful and the abuse begins…. People can overcome abuse that is far worse than being forced to win or be berated..or at least get enough help/reality checks so that they don’t grow into monsters that seek to destroy an entire country’s democratic system.
Anon
It is truly strange how similar people with genuine NPD can be to one another. If you know one, they can seem wildly unpredictable because they’re so reactive without a firm grounding in the reality shared by everyone around them. But if you know more than one, it’s like there’s another kind of predictability, because they’re all the same as each other!