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Our daily workwear reports suggest one piece of work-appropriate attire in a range of prices.
I usually associate Ted Baker with fun, floral prints, so this solid navy dress was a pleasant surprise. I like the mock neck and the slight front slit for some visual interest, without getting too risqué. This would look great with a classic camel-colored wool coat and some leopard pumps for the winter.
The dress is $315 and available in Ted Baker sizes 0–5 (roughly equivalent to sizes 00–14). Ellhad Mock Neck Belted Dress
Two options at lower price points are from Ann Taylor ($139) in both regular and petite sizes, and Eloquii ($99.95) in sizes 16–28.
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Sales of note for 10.10.24
- Nordstrom – Extra 25% off clearance (through 10/14); there's a lot from reader favorites like Boss, FARM Rio, Marc Fisher LTD, AGL, and more. Plus: free 2-day shipping, and cardmembers earn 6x points per dollar (3X the points on beauty).
- Ann Taylor – Extra 50% off sale (ends 10/12)
- Banana Republic Factory – Up to 50% off everything plus extra 25% off your $125+ purchase
- Boden – 10% off new styles with code; free shipping over $75
- Eloquii – Extra 50% off a lot of sale items, with code
- J.Crew – 40% off sitewide
- J.Crew Factory – 50% off entire site, plus extra 25% off orders $150+
- Lo & Sons – Fall Sale, up to 35% off
- M.M.LaFleur – Save 25% sitewide
- Neiman Marcus – Sale on sale, up to 85% off
- Spanx – Lots of workwear on sale, some up to 70% off
- Talbots – 50% off 2+ markdowns
- Target – Circle week, deals on 1000s of items
- White House Black Market – Buy one, get one – 50% off full price styles
And some of our latest threadjacks here at Corporette (reader questions and commentary) — see more here!
Some of our latest threadjacks include:
- What to say to friends and family who threaten to not vote?
- What boots do you expect to wear this fall and winter?
- What beauty treatments do you do on a regular basis to look polished?
- Can I skip the annual family event my workplace holds, even if I'm a manager?
- What small steps can I take today to get myself a little more “together” and not feel so frazzled all of the time?
- The oldest daughter is America's social safety net — change my mind…
- What have you lost your taste for as you've aged?
- Tell me about your favorite adventure travels…
A Reader
Wrong photo? This appears to be the same dress as pictured last Tuesday.
ElisaR
yup
Ellen
Dad says “Y’all have eagle eyes!” and he is not from the South! So Kudo’s to you! Personally, for this kind of money, I’d like a neck that doesn’t look like a tee shirt; perhaps a v-neck, but again, I’d like a nice collar showing a bit of my chest, but not enough to cause Frank to be stareing at my boobies all day.
Kanye East
Holy $h!t, I come back here after how many years away and Ellen is still going strong?! I admire your commitment, whoever you are!
Anonymous
weirdly, there’s a different picture before you click and after you click, so maybe one of them is right if you actually care about looking at the dress.
Senior Attorney
Thanks I thought I was seeing things…
Annalisa Peretti
The mock neck belted dress that you have shown in the above article looks like a pretty dress. I love mock neck dresses a lot. Mock neck dresses can be wore at any occasion and at any time. This is helpful information you mentioned in this article in a sweet and short way. I would suggest you to share more such information on other dresses also so it makes easy for us to select one for us.
Worry About Yourself
Very insightful comment! Please kindly check out my blog.
(just kidding this is obviously spam)
Anonanonanon
DC-area ladies: Are you ever bothered by how unfashionable DC is in general? I’ve gotten used to it over the years, but to be such a metropolitan area it’s wild how far behind we are on fashions sometimes! My husband is doing a West Wing rewatch and my friend from New York mentioned she can’t watch it because it looks so dated. I realized that most of the outfits on the show would not be out of place in most DC government offices today.
Anonymous
Nope. As a lazy dresser, I appreciate it, honestly. On days when I do step it up, I feel great; otherwise, I’m happy to fit right in wearing sneakers on my commute and sometimes never changing into my “real” shoes.
I love this wonky, nerdy city.
Anonymous
Same!
Angela
Same++
Telco Lady JD
Same++
anon
Assuming that my LA friends are on top of what is fashionable right now, I’m happy to skip it. I’m stunned by the things they wear out in public! It all looks so sloppy and mismatched.
SSJD
I am new to DC–moved here about 1.5 years ago. I would agree that people are not particularly stylish, but I like that this goes along with less pressure about how you look. What I do like is that the workplace is still formal (because of the Hill perhaps). People on the Hill wear suits! People get dressed for work (not just in slacks and a cotton shirt). I like to dress for work (blazer, pencil skirt, etc.). It’s nice to see others doing the same.
Funnily enough, I also just started watching West Wing again, with my children. The clothing and hair (especially CJ’s) does look decidedly dated to me. The men’s pants have pleats. Some of the clothing is generally baggy and less tailored than you’d expect to see today. Hair is a bit bigger. One major thing is that the women wear their shirt collars out, splayed across the collar of their jacket. This looks very dated to me.
anon
CJ’s hair in the first season is so bad! But it gets better.
Anonanonanon
I enjoy dressing classically for work as well, so I do like that aspect. It bothers me much more in terms of evenings and weekends!
Senior Attorney
The thing that really struck me when I re-watched The West Wing was how many of the women were rocking their curls! They’re starting to make a comeback, but for a long time curls were just a big ol’ Glamour Don’t (as we discussed here endlessly over the years — and I hasten to add I don’t endorse, I just describe).
Anonymous
Yes. I moved from DC to a more fashionable city (and I’m not sure how women pull it off — the mall stores are the same). I wouldn’t care, but the recession make me feel so scared that I had to really look the part in addition to doing top-quality work. And this is hard: I am older (now), I have kids, and I am always redlining it, if I were an engine. And yet I have to look like a rock star in spite of my size/body changing almost quarterly through pregnancies, postpartum, metabolism slowing, and putting everyone and everything in my life first.
I just re-ordered my Loft Curvy pants in a larger size — this to me is punting and also winning, b/c it is efficient and makes me look slightly put together (vs mom jeans) in a now-casual office (that means: guys in golf attire, women strugging to figure it out).
I am not sure what to do with the rise of prairie dresses — these are for casual offices? For my weekend living? For church? I feel like if I can’t wear athleisure, going below Business Casual to True Casual is a dicey proposition.
Ribena
I wear prairie dresses with a good blowout and top late, plus boots. I’m in a business casual office where I generally just avoid jeans.
Ribena
Top layer, sorry – a good cardigan or jacket, nothing sloppy.
Anonymous
I hate the NY and LA fashion cultures, I find them senseless and cruel.
Anonymous
NY has a fashion culture other than Maximum Black? I feel that NY is so easy in that regard. Yes, being impossibly slender seems to be mandatory (I found myself sized out of a boutique once for shirts and I am relatively small and flat-chested). But it is easy. LA to me would be hard; ditto Atlanta or Miami. And I would look like the Michelin Man in Chicago — never enough layers and it would look clownish in a legit office environment.
Anonanonanon
Agree. NYC just seems like variations of jackets and chelsea boots and skinny jeans?
Texan In Exile
And I would look like the Michelin Man in Chicago — never enough layers and it would look clownish in a legit office environment.
I always wonder if the writers of “The Good Wife” have ever been to Chicago. Alicia is dressed as if she never steps foot outdoors. Her shoes and beautiful winter coats would last about three seconds before she would run back inside. (And slip on the ice and ruin her shoes.)
Alanna of Trebond
“Senseless and cruel” seems really strongly worded. I really do not understand this. What does it mean?
Anonymous
It’s senseless in that it requires you to always buy something new, and what is in and out can be totally random. To wit, the year everyone on the street in New York was in black skinnies tucked into fashion equestrian boots, and then the next year it was OTH boots, and then the next year it was fashion cowboy and then it was Chelsea boots. It’s also cruel, in that it seems to give women license to judge those who don’t play the consumer game. To wit, the snarky comments on this site about things like the shape of a shoe toe being hopelessly out.
Seventh Sister
I live in LA, and I feel like the fashion culture depends a lot on where you are and where you live. Mostly I feel “dressed up” enough/sufficiently trendy, but sometimes I just feel like I don’t have the frigging time to look casually amazing and I just want to go eat brunch without feeling like the schlumpiest woman on the patio.
Anonymous
I’m not in DC, but no, this wouldn’t bother me. Styles vary by region, and to judge a city or area by the standards of New York or by the views of a particular person who lives there is . . . well, what’s the point? To a fashion editor working at Vogue, most of the country would be hopelessly unfashionable. But who’s to say that her views are the ones that should govern how I think about the people around me? Or myself, for that matter?
Anonanonanon
I’m not saying I value myself or the people around me less. But this is a fashion blog, so presumably people here enjoy fashion.
Angela
Ehhh… it’s a women in the workplace blog, lbh. The fashion focus just helps ensure that men don’t dominate the comments.
anon
I think “dated” and “classic” (business formal?) are two different things. I don’t personally go to the office as an exercise in being fashionable. I’m okay with the sheath dress, blazer, and flats look I’ve got going even if it’s not the peak of fashion. It’s classic. It’s not really in, it’s not really out.
Also, a lot of current fashion is casual which doesn’t fly in more conservative workplaces– Giant fuzzy sweaters in washed out colors? Scrunchies? Mom jeans? Not wearing any of that to work any time soon, and I’m totally fine with it. New York is it’s own special animal and I don’t think its realistic to expect the entire country to dress like (privileged) new yorkers.
Anon
I confess to giving our first year associate who does wear giant fuzzy sweaters, scrunchies, and mom jeans (often all at the same time) serious side eye. The crop top she wore one day really put me over the edge. But I’m not part of her chain (and clearly am a boring DC dresser), so I said nothing.
Anonanonanon
Oh goodness I would hope a crop top is inappropriate in almost any workplace!
Anon
I totally wore a giant fuzzy sweater to my business casual office at the end of my pregnancy. But, well, I was pregnant, it was the winter, and I paired it with trousers and nice flats, not leggings and sneakers, so that was probably more than people expected anyway.
Anon
I LOVE that I can wear ankle pants and a classic sweater and flats and pearls and be put together and not have to give my work outfit a second thought. LOVE. So, so easy. We’re not trendy and I appreciate that. I think it’s very much a function of D.C.’s purpose – I have bigger ish to deal with than chasing down whatever some magazine editor or fashion designer half a world away says I need to wear. Whether it’s writing tax laws, orchestrating Middle East peace, fighting health issues – people have real ish to do here. And if that means people wear safe staples instead of trendy, fine by me.
I did get my hair cut this weekend out of town and definitely noticed the stylist’s eye makeup. (Super pretty cat eye with rose gold shadow.) It reminded me that D.C. denizens rarely wear noticeable makeup. (I used to love makeup and a pretty eye, but again, no time.) I mean, the city’s nickname for a long time was “Hollywood for ugly people” – I think “Hollywood for smart people” is a better turn of phrase.
Anonymous
Like how the DC correspondents’ dinner is the “nerd prom”
I went one year and had a blast just watching people. Was of course not dressed like I’d wanted to be, but in that crowd it truly did not matter.
Anon
I find the fashion in DC to be pretty consistent with the majority of the country, which makes sense to me. DC it doesn’t have a big fashion industry like LA or NYC which has to stay on top of trends. DC doesn’t have a huge ultra-wealth population like LA or NYC or Miami, which again stays on top of trends as they “job.” Instead, DC has a lot of people who work in office buildings in jobs that don’t deal with fashion. In addition, if you are mainly looking at government agencies, the average age is significantly higher than private industry. It makes sense that many people 30 to 40 years in to their career just don’t care about fashion anymore.
PolyD
I think DC is a bit more formal. When I visit my family in the suburbs of Chicago, I feel “fancy” wearing a cashmere cardigan (not a top-quality one either, usually from Macy’s) with a pretty Loft blouse and ankle pants. Or even nice skinny jeans. I see a lot of sweatshirts and baggy pants.
But I, too, like DC’s slightly more formal, but not uber-fashionable, atmosphere. I find it very easy to dress for.
Mallory
Hmm…I could see what you mean. I think for me, what would get monotonous is if I felt the fashion all around me was boring…is that how you feel? I like clothes and I like the creativity they inspire, so having some of that around me is preferred.
Anonanonanon
I think this is it. I certainly don’t mind it for work, which I did not make clear in my comment. But it does bother me more on evenings and weekends when I feel like I stand out more than I want to by being interested in fashion. Even just skinny jeans, heeled chelsea-ish boots, layered gold necklaces, a white t-shirt, and a slightly-oversized blazer elicits an “oooo where are you going all dressed up?” reaction.
Anonymous
yes… what’s baseline trendy elsewhere is unbelievably trendy in DC and it’s annoying. I live in NYC but my best friend is from/lives in DC and the clothing difference between her DC friends and NYC friends is notable. I could not live in a place where stodgy, traditional and non-standout appear to be positive fashion attributes!
Anon
It’s probably the blazer, many people just don’t wear them on weekends
Anonymous
I love it! I don’t have to have a huge weekend wardrobe: black pants, flats or boots, and a sweater or a tee and in good to go. Saves me lots of extra time and money!
Anon
You would get the same reaction in SF or LA. A blazer is not normal causal clothing outside of NYC
Telco Lady JD
I mean…The West Wing’s first season was in 1999. It IS dated….
Awesomeness vs self-importance?
How do you catch yourself when you have moments of what I’d describe as a slightly judge-y pride or self-importance about work? I really enjoy my work, have a great boss, think the mission is meaningful. But the hours can be grueling. At the worst it’s been round the clock or all-nighters, but it’s not all the time. I try to downplay it with people who have more normal schedules and don’t want to seem like I’m complaining (I’ll just say, oh it’s been a bit crazy lately, the last few weeks were super busy). I totally get that”normal hours” is relative and there are people out there who have even more grueling hours than me sometimes. But sometimes I find myself, I don’t know, slightly judge-y and not being able to relate when friends or acquaintances complain about staying late to 6 or 7pm, or how busy or swamped or underwater they are, or office issues that seem pretty minor to me. I think it’s important to not downplay what you do and to own your awesomeness and contributions (believe me this didn’t happen overnight), but I never want to veer into self-importance territory.
Anonymous
Being busy doesn’t make you important. Working grueling hours is a sign of mismanagement.
Anonymous
I don’t work crazy hours–you’d totally judge me–but I do something similar regarding salaries and the nature of my work. My job is somewhat cool, but the field is poorly paid, so I tend to catch myself looking down on people who do more humdrum work but get paid really well. For me, I’m often feeling jealous when I feel this way, and I have to remind myself that I chose this path–am still choosing this path–and had plenty of privileges that meant I could do something else.
Anon
This is very well said. Most of the time I find the practice of law exhausting, and petty fighting with opposing counsel drains any meaning out of it for me. I am often jealous of friends who have government jobs, work for non-profits, own small boutiques, etc. – not because those jobs are easier, but because they seem more meaningful or satisfying to me, even if lower-paying. But I chose to go to law school and assume the debt that came along with it, and I am paid quite well for what I do.
Anon
Please advise on how not to get bogged down with petty squabbles with opposing counsel. I am dealing with multiple cases where counsel is getting contentious over very reasonable/common for this practice area discovery requests, standard scheduling matters, etc. Lately, I feel like all I do is argue over stuff they know they are going to produce anyway or already agreed upon deadlines. It’s exhausting trying to work things out without filing something with the court and it’s exhausting and draining me lately. I’m 7 years out of school and I’m looking ahead trying to figure out how people do this for 20+ years. I’ve heard of people burning out of litigation and this may be why.
Anon
I wish I had an answer for you, friend. I’m 10 years out and it’s still a struggle. My more senior partners tell me that it gets better with time because you can better compartmentalize it. I’m not great at compartmentalizing and I tend to dwell on squabbles.
I do think that it gets easier as you get more flexibility to tailor your practice. Some practice areas are less contentious and more professional. I try to market myself in those areas.
Anonymous
I find it more exhausting if I engage emotionally. Instead, just note what opposing counsel is like and find the best way to deal with it.
missannethrope
Threaten to file a motion every time counsel disagrees unreasonably. Email a draft motion and say you’re going to file it by 4:59 pm if no agreement is reached. Make sure all emails are squeaky clean and pleasant because any harsh words will come back to bite you.
Anonymous
Based on how you phrased your post here, I suspect they know that you think your job is much more important than their issues or concerns.
You can reduce some of the judginess you have by remembering that people may have had what you had and made other choices. I spent a long time leaning into the ‘big job’. More recently, as I approach 40 I’ve taken a step back and prioritized life outside of work, so leaving at 5 or 6pm is now important to me. Being able to take a random Thursday afternoon off to try snowboarding for the first time? Way more important to me than any of the big money deals that have now all blurred together. If the thrill of the deal or mission for you is lasting, that’s great but that not better or worse than anyone else who wants to get out of work on time and delve into their non-work life.
Anonymous
Idk if this is what’s going on, but for me, this is stress-related. Like sorry when I’m gearing up for trial and I manage to find one hour this month to see friends, I don’t want to hear you complain about how you had to work late until 6 pm one night last week, omg you’re still so exhausted from it. I can bite my tongue but I cannot control the Look you are going to get. I just know to avoid certain people when I’m feeling overwhelmed.
Anon
You’ve been brainwashed into thinking sacrificing more of your time to work makes you better or means that you’re working harder. Unless you’re the owner, every minute of time over eight or nine hours given to work is just helping someone else get richer at the expense of your actual life.
To give you some perspective to keep from being prideful – remember that yes you are working hard and doing well, but others may look on you with pity at the lack of actual life you get to live.
Anon
I occasionally feel this way for both my hours/low pay/“importance” of work.
I work in government doing emergency management. I can, and frequently do, get pulled out of bed at 3am to go to work (usually doing something unpleasant). When we’re in steady state, I work reasonable hours but when something happens it’s easy to put in 80 hour weeks. When things are calm and I work normal hours, I’m still always on standby because you never know when something will happen and you’ll be needed. I also get the stress of if I mess something up, people can die.
I have plenty of friends who make twice as much as I do, who work less hours (and aren’t chained to their phones), who have less stressful jobs, who don’t have helping careers and yeah sometimes I have to change the subject because I feel myself getting frustrated. When this happens, I also remind myself that I chose to go into this career and that I do love it.
Honestly, while the pay/hours/stress get to me the thing I get most frustrated about is how many people I love and who are objectively good people chose careers that do nothing for the common good but pay them very, very well.
Anon
+1 to your last sentence.
I sometimes wonder if they really are donating as much of their riches/time as they say they want to do, as a rationalization for their jobs/lifestyle. But what really pains me is we need their brain power in fields like medicine/science/education/engineering etc… where they can have such an impact on both individuals and the world. So much waste.
Or maybe there is a great need for and satisfaction from figuring out how to optimize the market for diet 7-up in Turkey, or develop another App for organizing podcasts.
Anon
Yes!!!
I work in the public sector in a difficult sub sector. I give blood as often as I can. I donate money to every month to a few different causes. I volunteer regularly. I’m very focused on being as green as possible.
I rarely talk about all that I do because a) I don’t do any of this for recognition, I do it to be of service b) no one wants to be friends with the martyr who talks about their martyrdom and c) I do so much more that is less “do gooder” note fun and that’s what people (myself included!) would rather discuss
…. and they don’t do any of those things I do (but don’t worry – they go to church while I’m just a heathen!)
Obviously I have to look past this otherwise my only friends would be coworkers. And I get we’re all waking our own walks through life and volunteering regularly is not feasible if you’re caring for a sick family member, etc.
Anon
Well, you can’t confuse working a lot with being important, that’s for sure.
Anon
In my mind, my struggles don’t make other people’s struggles invalid and vice versa. We all deal with different difficulties and we all cope in different ways. Some of us have more resilience while some are more susceptible to stress and exhaustion, which makes comparison moot. I try to live my life and let others live theirs.
Anonanonanon
You’re directly relating the importance of your job with the hours you work, which I find interesting. I would try to move out of that mindset if you’re truly concerned about this. As someone with a high-stress six-figure job, I think teachers, who work significantly less hours than I do, have much more of a right to be stressed and exhausted than I do, for example. And arguably, even though I work in the nonprofit sector, their work is more important. I certainly couldn’t do what they do.
Coach Laura
I stopped complaining about being busy sometime mid-career, about 15 years ago when I was working and in grad school. I just decided that always answering “How are you?” with some variation of “OMG I’m so swamped at work/home/school.” was depressing to me and to others and that I needed to find a better way of dealing with busy times and busy-ness. And I did. If I rattled off all I was doing, the other person would usually say something like “That’s too much – how do you do it all?” So I started downplaying it. It helped me be more balanced and get more done with a better outlook.
Anon
The World Economic Forum just posted an article that millenials must save 40% of their income to save for retirement. I’m doing my own math, and that sounds about right for me. I don’t plan a lavish retirement, but I want to retire at 65 (started working at 24) and have enough money to live independently without burdening my children. I’m just so exhausted thinking about this. My husband and I are squirreling away as much as we can for retirement, and it feels like we will barely make it. I figure we have a decade or two of independent living and then we will burn through the rest in assisted living, and then hopefully Medicaid would cover the rest. (Although I even doubt that it will be available.) Please share any success stories from your family or friends. Not…dad made millions of dollars and died peacefully at his winter home in Vail. But rather…my grandmother made it through without becoming destitute.
Anonymous
Oh come on. Obviously many many people are fine and they aren’t saving like this. You wanna go through life with this much anxiety find but don’t put it on the rest of us.
Anon
I disagree. We do not provide great safety nets for elders in our society, and many people are not “fine” when they are old and vulnerable. Current rates of abuse and medical malpractice in care homes are alarming to me.
LaurenB
My grandfather was a blue collar steelworker and my grandmother did not work as was the custom of the day. They lived modestly and he retired on time. My grandfather died in 2001 at age 81. My grandmother lived independently til 2018 (age 98) when she needed to go into a nursing home. I administer her money. She is now 100. It will run out right around when she turns 101 this summer and then she’ll go on Medicaid. Living at/below your means is the key.
OP
I consider this a great success story…thank you
Anonymous
This is such an exception that I can’t consider it a success story. She was enormously lucky to live until 98 years old apparently without major health issues. That’s the success here, not what her money did. If she were most people, she would end up sick years or even decades prior to her death, and she would have spent through whatever she had too.
Anon
I can’t tell if you’re agreeing or disagreeing with the World Economic Forum. Do you think your grandparents saved about 40%? My grandparents lived similar lives, and I would not be surprised if they saved even more; they lived very frugally. They were able to retire on savings and keep their house, but I am not sure how I feel about the sacrifices they made to protect their retirement. Maybe it would have been better to have spent more money on certain things (e.g., traveling to visit close family members who lived in other states).
LaurenB
I don’t really know how much they saved, other than by the time I needed to step in, she had maybe $200k in savings plus a house (that I had to sell) worth $75k (rowhouse in major industrial city). That is what is lasting her. My grandmother still had nice clothes, went to dinner for special occasions, etc. Lived within means but never suffered in any way.
Anon
I think my grandparents had a lot more than that saved at the time my family stepped in, but they also lived through decades of ill health over which to spend it. Maybe they would have been less frugal if they had felt better from day to day.
OP
Calm down. I’m not putting it on you or anyone else.
Anon
I think it’s based on inflation rates for housing and food. Retirement for millenials is 30 to 40 yrs away – this could be very very accurate. And just because people aren’t doing it now, or can’t because of their income level, doesn’t mean it’s not a good recommendation.
Anon
I don’t know what counts as a success story. Everyone in my life ended up needing Medicaid and/or their children to keep up with the costs of assisted living or professional nursing. Do people who work for a living often make enough money, unless they’re very lucky with their health, to rely on savings for retirement?
Anonymous
Maybe it is not having to rely on family / public resources prior to needing FT nursing care? I see a lot of people who will need support from people (family? taxpayers?) the minute they dial it back at work, so will be unable to retire, ever.
Veronica Mars
I mean, they can say that but the reality is that more than half (55%) of millennials don’t have any retirement savings, and to throw out a number like 40% is unrealistic for many, many families. I’m not sure what will happen when our generation enters the retirement years, and the great experiment of the 401k versus pension plans is realized. But I think there will be such a grand sweeping level of unpreparedness, and the AARP/older voters have such enormous voting power, that something will have to be done at a legislative level. On a personal level, I don’t think 40% is needed. I’ve started early at 20%, and all the retirement calculators, given moderate returns, look good to me. And again, if I’m not going to hack it with ~$5million in retirement, who the h*|| will?
Anon
The average retirement savings of a 60 year old is less than $175k. Throwing around numbers like 40% is just crazy and discourages people from saving anything because it will be so much less than that.
emeralds
+1 to both of these comments. 40% is a number that is so deeply, deeply out of touch with the financial reality of most Americans that it becomes meaningless. Let’s not forget that the average income of an American household is under $65,000 per year.
Anonymous
I agree that it’s not possible to save … but that doesn’t mean that one can have a comfortable or even tolerable retirement without saving or even with saving modestly. That’s where I think the disconnect really lies. Too many people seem to say, it’ll just have to be enough or it’ll be fine. I know worrying doesn’t help, but it is a real problem.
Alanna of Trebond
Recent reporting on some survey results suggests that 25% of millennials already have more than $100,000 saved for retirement and that 75% of millennials (including the 25%, I assume) are already saving something.
Anon
I don’t think telling stories about our grandparents is relevant for today. They grew up in a very different time, with different savings/cost of living/cost of homes and different family structures.
These savings pronouncements are usually out of touch and unrealistic. Of course, the vast majority of people will never save that much and yet, somehow survive and live ok in retirement. There are many support systems in place for seniors, and Medicaid and other assistance programs (for property taxes/utilities/health insurance/food stamps) can piece together a simple existence. I actually know several seniors living like this, even in my relatively desirable suburb where we have several senior subsidized housing buildings that are very cheap for those in need. Many have family/friends that they can live with and who also give assistance. Many keep working part time in “retirement”. It is what it is.
If you want to live independently in your 3000 sq foot accessible home and die in your own bed, well that is not always realistic. If you want to subsidize living independently at home while you have progressive dementia and need 24 hour care or live in the best facility in the country that is still very unpleasant and costs $20k per month… well that is not realistic. And when/if I have dementia, I don’t care about living in the best facility in the country. Let me die/live someplace cheap on Medicaid. It will be enough. I wont know where I am. So who cares? Not my kids fortunately, because I have none. You are incredibly lucky to have a spouse saving with you. Who are already ahead of the game.
And I’ll be honest. Many of us will die younger than we expect. My mother died of cancer before she could enjoy retirement. We have a lot of cancer on her side of the family, so I know that this will likely be my way. No problem. Bury me under a tree in the woods and I’ll be happy as fertilizer, or if by miracle I die with intact corneas and a liver not full of cancer, pleas donate it to living person in need.
My parents both grew up with less than many on this board. My father was very poor, and my Mom was lower middle class. Both got full scholarships to college, and had learned early that saving/frugality was important for survival. They were big savers, and still never saved close to 40%. But they did fine.
Years of assisted living in a very desirable location or retirement to a nice CCRC is not realistic for most of us who are not rich. If that is your goal, yes… start saving now and get higher paying jobs and start playing the market. But most of us will continue to live, which is better than 95% of the world, and we will be ok.
Anon
+1 to so many statements here. I have known way more people who died before retirement age than I’ve known people who outlived their money. I am also pretty alarmed at how many people we know have gotten cancer in their 40s and 50s. I think pretty soon, getting cancer will be something that happens to most of us. And while survival rates are increasing, some of us won’t make it. Just reality.
Also something I’ve brought up here before, but: a few months ago I was curious about all of the advice to save save save in case you end up needing full nursing care for decades before you die. National statistics say that the average patient stay in full nursing care is 5 months, which is congruent with what we’ve seen with friends and family. Most people don’t make it long in full nursing care because by the time you need that, your health is already significantly compromised. There are outliers, but honestly, if I end up in full nursing care my goal will be to die as quickly as possible, and I’ll sign advanced directives to that effect (DNR, etc.).
Anon
I guess this is a “know your genetics” situation? My family gets chronic illnesses that slowly progress over decades, disabling our bodies while our minds stay sharp. Almost no cancer or cardiovascular disease. So it really is typical in my family to need care taking.
LaurenB
I agree this is a know your genetics situation. I have my 100 yo gmother who is now frail and bedridden but doesn’t have any real “disease.@ My other gm lived into her 90s as well. My mother is 77 and in perfect health. (My father died young but not from natural causes.)
anon
One of the societal changes I think we’ll see in the next few generations is individuals choosing to refuse treatment, having DNRs, taking medication for suicide, and society accepting it.
Anon
I hope not. I’ve been chronically ill and have required different levels of help since I was 18 years old. I have been pressured to give up on my career or set lower goals for myself before, and that has been stressful enough. I would not welcome feeling social pressure to give up altogether.
Anon
Aren’t DNR pretty come for elderly people now? Everyone I’ve know over 80 had had one.
Anonymous
Anon at 11:34 – societal acceptance of personal choice is vastly different from social pressure.
Anon
Anonymous at 11:56. I see your point. Maybe my sense is more that there’s already a lot of social pressure building, especially in our overly strained healthcare system? A lot of the pressure I’ve experienced has come from doctors who are themselves pressed for time and whose jobs become easier if I accept a lower quality of life. So in the healthcare contexts I’ve experienced, it’s hard for me to imagine the possibility of making a free and fully informed personal choice to refuse treatment. The existing pressure is to accept symptoms, give up on treatments, stay home, and generally go away. But I certainly haven’t experienced end of life care, where I can believe that all those pressures may currently be reversed.
Anonymous
Thank you for clarifying your position. I come at it from having seen too many devastatingly sad end of life situations, but I appreciate your considerations too and am sorry for what you’re going through.
LaurenB
DNR already seems the norm, and no one blinks twice.
Anonymous
Just … let me die … is not always an option. You might linger, you know, and suffer terribly.
Anonymous
Yes. And we have no idea how to solve the issue of assisted dying for people who have Alzheimers/dementia and cannot legally give consent.
Senior Attorney
Also, when my mom was younger she always said “lock me up and throw away the key” and “just shoot me.” Then as she got older (past 90) she stopped saying that. She lived to be almost 96 and was quite unhappy the past few years but believe me she wanted medical care and attention from the family.
Anon
Yes, so that is why we should all have DNR/DNI if we have a high incidence of dementia in our family, and someone we trust to be our advocate as we age. We should plan.
I will definitely have an exit plan.
Suffer terribly? Not with dementia – most likely family suffers emotionally as they watch a loved one deteriorate, but honestly from what I have witnessed most family disappear when folks with dementia live a long time in facilities. I work in this field.
The people I see suffer terribly tend to be folks with catastrophic illnesses/awful cancers where the choices are sedating until you are comatosed or living with suffering if you want any awareness of life. It is a rough choice.
Anonymous
I think dementia is just a stand in for any long-term illness here, rather than an exact scenario.
Anon
Yes, this. People here are so flippant about assisted suicide, but (at least in the US) it’s incredibly difficult. It’s only available in some states, and even there a doctor has to certify you have a terminal illness and dementia does not qualify. My grandmother begged my mother to kill her and my mother knew she was suffering and wanted to help her die, but didn’t want to go to jail for murder. “I’ll just kill myself if I get dementia” is so easy to say but very difficult to execute, even if you have supportive family members who are willing to let you go (which is a big “if”).
Anon
Yes, you cannot readily ask a family member to do it. You can only prepare yourself.
But when someone is saying things like your grandmother, they should be instantly referred to Hospice/Palliative Care/psychiatry. There are always things that can be done to improve suffering. Most doctors are not experienced with this, but they are becoming more knowledgeable.
Worry About Yourself
I’ve just accepted that I’m not going to retire at 65, I’m going to work as long as I reasonably can (and that’s taking into account the reality of ageism, working into old age might not be an option unless I’m amazing at my job) and then probably work part-time to tread water financially. The comfortable, long-term retirement my grandparents’ generation had just isn’t realistic for most of us.
Anonymous
Pardon the ignorance- but is the stat that you have to have enough saved to live on 40% of your current income? Or be socking away 40% of your pretax gross income annually from ages 23-64?
I actually think both of those numbers seem off- but what do I know. I’ve had a really lumpy income, starting at $27k, peaking at $275k and am currently at $100k, and only 35. My husband’s income has been slightly more linear.
I absolutely save >40% the income I made in my 20s ($27-80k) per year, however, I’m nowhere near saving 40% of the $275k I made for a couple years.
anon
2 women in my extended family are living past 90, and I don’t know the financial details, but owning their houses outright is a big part of how it works. One has already sold her house and used proceeds to set up a caertaking situation- the other is still carrying on at home after a breif stint in a convalescence center.
Anon
Coming as someone from a blue collar poor background, that is just ridiculous and fear-mongering. The vast majority of people barely make enough to survive and have anything resembling a middle-class life (i.e., own their own home, put food on the table, buy a few new outfits a year, take a domestic vacation once every 5 years or so, etc.). The average wage has been stagnant for decades, and isn’t even keeping up with inflation. The average American has a lot more immediate money concerns to worry about then retirement.
Pretty much everyone in my extended family has “retired” (i.e. lost their job and couldn’t find new work) on social security and less than $100k. I’m not saying they have the dream retirement shown in ads, but no one is eating cat food to survive. Maybe we are just lucky because we normally die from something before needing extensive stays in nursing homes, it’s not unusual in my family to die in your home, and no one has needed memory care. But I think this is the average American retirement now a days, and to act like every one gets to travel the world in retirement or spend it on the golf course or in country clubs is incredibly out of touch with reality.
anon
+1. I come from a similar background to you and I think a lot of it is expectations inflation. Obviously I want to have the best retirement I can and give my parents the best experience. The reality is though the cast majority of people will have our basic needs met and most folks here will be very fortunate enough to have better than that. It’s a wonderful privilege as a (subset of ) society to have our expectations of “basic needs” rise as they have
Anonymous
Could you give more details as to what this retirement looks like? Is it like, living with family/having roommates in a low cost of living area? Staying in a home they’ve paid off? Occasional small luxuries like strawberries at the grocery store or actual annual vacations? Going to the doctor when they need to or avoiding it unless its a dire emergency?
Anon
Even if you are poor, much medical care can be covered when you are a senior. Medicare, then add Medicaid if your income is low enough which covers basically 100% of medical expenses and some additional drug assistance programs/order from Canada etc.. I have a family friend who only gets $700 per month from Social Security. But she owns her own simple home in a low property tax state (think Arkansas etc…), has some family (siblings) that could help in a pinch, and does a little side gig that can make an additional 100-$200 per month, and gets food stamps. Amazingly, she does ok. She knows where to find help. And when she can’t make it any longer, she sells her house, moves into senior subsidized housing.
Anon
Oh – and she lives in a college town, and rents out a room in her house for extra money. It is a win-win. She has a younger person there for safety/helping with some household things
Anon
Those calculations are usually based on several assumptions:
– You need to replace 80-90% of your pre-retirement income to be “comfortable” in retirement (which for those of us making well over 6 figures is just not true, period).
– You will live to be 95 years old
– Some calculators assume you want to live on the interest of your investments and leave the principal (or the bulk of it) to your heirs
– Some calculators default to not including Social Security payments in retirement income calculations at all, which is not reasonable. The government’s own analysts have said that even with the depletion of the trust fund, beneficiaries will get 60-70% of what their full benefits will be. People who say Social Security “won’t be there” or “will be killed by the Republicans” are being hysterical.
None of those assumptions are necessarily true. It’s really important to find a calculator that will allow you to change the assumptions to what you feel is reasonable for your situation/needs/desires and see what the numbers look like. There are many people who live comfortably in retirement with much less than $3 million in the bank. It depends on what kind of life you want to live. If you want to travel internationally on the reg, live in a big house, and drive luxury cars – yeah, that’s going to cost money. If you envision a simpler kind of life you may need less than you think. The calculators as they are designed now benefit one entity: the financial services industry, which makes more money when people have more assets under management. Those folks seem to not care too much that advocating that people save half their income for retirement will kill our economy, which is based on consumption of goods and services. We’ll see how that all works out, I guess.
In any case, asking average-earning people to save 40% of their income toward retirement is neither realistic nor helpful. People on this board may be doing it but this is an extremely privileged group of people. There have been some great articles in the NYT recently about personal finance, and the upshot is: people buying lattes and cell phones aren’t the problem; the problem is wage stagnation, the ginormous increases in college tuition and medical costs, and the eroding of social safety nets. Until we fix those things, people can talk all they want about people “saving more for retirement” but the bottom line is people don’t have the money to save. You can’t get blood from a turnip. And if folks are scared about some of the things Bernie and Warren are proposing, and see them as socialistic, just wait until we get to a point where 75% of the population has no savings or net worth and then get pushed out of the workforce by age discrimination or automation. We will definitely see some socialism then, if we don’t see people being guillotined in the streets. A little socialism now may save all the rich folks out there from being dragged into the streets and beheaded in about 20 years, and I am not using hyperbole. Something to ponder.
Anonymous
Yes. The Atlantic had a good article about wage stagnation, etc, also. It’s entitled “The Great Affordability Crisis Breaking America.”
PolyD
“And if folks are scared about some of the things Bernie and Warren are proposing, and see them as socialistic, just wait until we get to a point where 75% of the population has no savings or net worth and then get pushed out of the workforce by age discrimination or automation. We will definitely see some socialism then, if we don’t see people being guillotined in the streets. A little socialism now may save all the rich folks out there from being dragged into the streets and beheaded in about 20 years, and I am not using hyperbole. Something to ponder.”
I wish people would listen to you, Anon at 10:39. I’ve often wondered, too, what will happen when the generations of no pensions and not-great-jobs hit retirement age with little to rely on. To be sure, I think the save 40% is ridiculous, but there are a lot of people who are doing their best but still can’t save near enough for a decent, safe retirement.
Anon
I feel like 40% is just so off base as to what most people can save!
Single/child-free government employee in my mid 20s in a medium to high cost of living city with no debt (paid off school and car already). I live relatively frugally and can at best save 20% post tax. I take home about 3k a month, contribute about $300 to my pension plan (which pays out a minimal amount but I’ll be lucky to have when I retire … lord knows if/when they’ll axe it) and $300 to my Roth. I also contribute $100 to non retirement investments and $500 to my normal savings (need to build up my emergency fund, etc) so my savings rate is great but dear lord who can contribute 40%?!?!
Anonymous
To be fair, the numbers are generated on what they anticipate people will need in the future, not on what people’s actual budgets are today.
YoungandDumb
I’m in the same situation as you (except early 20s), and take home a little less but definitely save 40% post-tax, insurance, Roth, etc. That said, I don’t invest and have been looking into a) lowering my savings percentage and transitioning some for investment or b) just having less “fun” money and investing some of that.
Would love to hear how you invest!
Anon
+1
Anonymous
Although it’s reasonable to say you don’t need the amount a financial advisor suggests, I’m genuinely baffled at the tone these responses about retirement saving always take. The remarks are always, well that’s impossible and people manage. But are people really going to be managing well on little or nothing decades from now? And should we just give up on the idea of saving or voting or whatever and decide “well, I’ll manage.” It’s very weird that everyone assumes it will somehow, magically, be easy enough either to get by or to simply choose to die in a manner that’s convenient/at a time that’s convenient. People without that much money are retiring is such a weird argument, many of them are struggling in ways that privileged people cannot even imagine (and if you don’t have retirement money at some point you won’t be privileged anymore, hello).
Anon
I don’t think the comparisons to grandparents are particularly relevant.
They are of a generation where you could be a high school grad and walk down to the factory, join a union, and stay at that job for 50 years and that job was enough for you to buy a house and pay it off over 30 years (not that you necessarily lived large but you had your own home, no college debt, 2 cars though maybe used ones, and maybe a vacation every year or 3) + then that job paid out a full/nearly full pension WITH retiree health care.
There’s a reason these pension plans are being re-neged and basically don’t exist for new employees anymore because it is so expensive to pay out health benefits at the current prices for your rosters of employees who worked for you 30 or 40 years ago.
That is the big question for our generation — it’s not that everyone necessarily needs to save $5 million in retirement because they’ll need 200k/yr to be golfing and traveling and leasing new cars every 3 years when they’re 70. It’s that we don’t know if the current healthcare plan which costs a senior 3k/month now will cost 10k/month then and if it does — well that’s 120k right off the top out of your 200k/yr retirement and then you have to pay taxes and live in 80k leading to a pretty “normal” retirement with maybe a vacation now and again, not traveling the world first class.
It’s nice that people are so cavalier — oh 40% is just fear mongering and it isn’t possible, you won’t need it anyway, don’t bother. Well I say you don’t know what you’ll need so do what you can. If you can do 40% great. If you can only do 35% or 23% or whatever — do that. Though the “problem” I find is that often high earning people max out the “official” retirement vehicles with 10-15% of their incomes, though at that point I guess taxable brokerage and frankly even cash (though not all cash) is still better than saying — well I’m maxed out of all the accounts I can contribute to at 10%, guess I don’t to do more.
Anonymous
Thanks for being a voice of reason. Trump is planning medicare cuts in his next budget and that could be an ongoing trend until it’s gone if people continue to vote Republican, just an FYI for anyone planning on medicare.
Anonymous
I’m quite curious what he is proposing, as you really can’t cut Medicare much more. Most doctors already lose money on Medicare patients. If he is thinking about raising Medicare premiums on wealthier seniors, well I”m ok with that.
Retired Anon in HCOL
Medicare premiums are already higher for higher income seniors. Starting at almost 50% higher and rising from there.
Anon
My grandfather made a good living (not amazing, just very comfortable), was forced to take early retirement when his company did a re-org, and had a very comfortable retirement with my grandmother. She passed away relatively young; he lived until 84 and was living independently until the last 2 or 3 weeks of his life. At the end of it all, his estate consisted of $300k in savings and a paid-off house (2000 sq ft., 25 years old, nice details, worth about $250k).
Anon
Honestly. It’s made me reconsider joining the military. Still young enough to join and put in my 20 years and then could retire with healthcare and a pension and still be young enough to have a civilian career for another 10-20 years on top of that.
Anon
Very smart. I would also consider this if I was your age. I am 50 and am planning to work for the government for my next job for similar reasons.
Anon
Not a single Baby Boomer I know who lives in the U.S., including my parents and all of my friends’ parents, have retired at 65. They are all highly educated and in some cases were just promoted into new upper management roles in their 60s (or 70s in one case that I know of). This is likely the new normal for the upper middle class who is not rich enough to retire on “assets” but wants to maintain a standard of living beyond the basic. Additionally, highly educated Gen-Xers and Millennials that are part of this same upper middle crust are having kids much later than prior generations, including Boomers, so by the time we are 65 our kids might only be in their twenties or early thirties, exactly the time they need the most financial help with down payment and getting settled into adult life, if the parents were willing to give it at all (I have conflicted feelings on this but I know many parents will go lengths to help adult kids get into real estate because it only gets worse with every year in metro areas). Additionally, GenXers and Millennials started working later than Boomers due to additional school and started with big negative worth due to loans. I just don’t see how an average highly educated worker in their 30’s and 40’s can realistically have a family and retire at 65 without being ridiculously highly paid.
Anon
I know plenty of boomers who have “retired” at 65 — as in forced retirement because their company reorganized and they got laid off. And as much as people here say, oh I’d get another job, I’d consult etc. — it’s not always possible and not nearly as easy as it looks. And these are all well educated, experienced STEM folks (not medicine – more engineering and tech). So for me, yeah I try to save 30% or 40% or whatever in whichever form I can — retirement or not — because I have seen up close that you can plan to work until you’re 65 or 85 or whatever and you can get pushed out never to be re employed again.
Anonymous
How do you explain to junior associates that the practice of law is not a 9-4:30 gig? Private practice, regional midsize – I’m swamped and the new associates in my practice area don’t answer email past 5pm or on weekends, don’t work past 5pm or on weekends, and actually tell partners that they’re “too busy” to take work when they are not billing anywhere close to our expectations…because they need breaks. I understand mental health need and needing space from work, but this simply isn’t a 35-hr a week gig.
Anonymous
IDK but we had a first year like this and after >1 year of this with bad work, she was counseled out and went to a larger BigLaw firm where I feel it will be the same, but on repeat play, maybe with the same result.
Anonymous
Lolz idk but we have the same problems.
Anonymous
Someone sits them down and says ‘this isn’t a 35 hr a week job’. You must answer emails until X time at night. If you are unable to accept additional work, please see managing partner re redistribution/prioritization etc.
Then if they don’t improve, either fire them or don’t hire them back? It’s not that hard. If they are told to work certain hours, and they don’t work the hours, you don’t keep employing them.
Worry About Yourself
Say what you said here! “Jane, I realize most jobs allow for hard-stops at 5PM, but this isn’t one of those jobs. You will need to work past 5PM and on weekends when the workload calls for it, and it will. I also need you to check your emails after hours to make sure there are no pressing matters that need your attention.”
Piper Dreamer
I would tell them straight up that you need them until 6, 7 or whatever. When I was junior, I preferred straightforward feedback to passive-aggressively leaving hand markup on my desk at 9 pm without letting me know beforehand they needed me there. So I would call them at 4 and say could you stick around for a couple of more hours and ask them to check with you before heading out. If, however, they say yes but then proceed to leave early without telling you, I think you either give them another chance or email them so there is a written record when it comes to review time.
Worry About Yourself
I remember one moment in my old job where a manager (not my manager) told me I should stay half an hour or so later than the usual “quitting time” when I was in the middle of a big project for the VP, in case she needed anything from me at the last minute. I bristled at this because he wasn’t my manager and my schedule was none of his business, but over time, I realized that he was right, there are going to be times where you should be working a little later than 5, and checking in with your manager before leaving in case there’s one more thing they need from you.
But my point is, this isn’t obvious to everyone the second they enter the working world, especially if they’re used to being paid hourly and working jobs where it’s expected that you generally work within certain hours. I know it feels like common sense when you’ve been in this line of work for a while, but you will need to spell it out to some people who don’t have as much firsthand experience.
anne-on
+1 – You need to spell it out. It simply may not be evident to these people if this is their first professional job, OR if they’ve never had experience in a non-salaried role. A lot of ‘first generation white collar’ workers may never have had anyone who modeled/talked about ‘staying until the work is done’ vs. clocking out at 5pm every day (or getting paid overtime).
Anon
Yep, don’t be passive aggressive. You’re not helping communicate important information about expectations that way.
AnonInHouse
+3. Communicating expectations is so important. It took me a while to figure it out on my own, and I wish someone had straight-up told me, you need to work more. When I was a summer associate in pre-recession days, my firm made every effort to hide how hard associates worked and made every day look like a party, so I had very unrealistic expectations going in to my first year. (Yes, much of this was my own fault / ignorance.)
anonymous
This. New associates don’t always truly “see” how hard successful senior associates or partners work. They don’t see you logged in working from home after kids are in bed. If they’re not copied on emails, they don’t see that partners always try to respond within 1-2 hours. They won’t see the 5 am email. They don’t see you in the office and while they’re probably not assuming you’re always on vacation, they’re not seeing the 2-3 days of traveling and spending hours in depositions. They’re still task-based, so they’re not understanding all of the mental load that happens with managing deals/cases/client relationships.
mascot
Yes to clear communications. Also, if your schedule/work flow means you are routinely sending night and weekend emails, give some guidance as to what needs their prompt attention and what can wait until daylight or Monday. Being told in a Saturday afternoon email that the partner needs revisions by 7.am. Monday means that you will have to work that weekend, but it’s much less frustrating than feeling like you have to drop everything and then the partner is radio silent.
anonn
I’ve been trying to make “delay send” a thing for this reason. If an email from me hits your inbox outside business hours, it’s because it’s urgent. Everything else is delayed until 8am the next business day. I get better responses from staff this way too, since my emails are at the top of their inbox when they come in.
Anon
+1
ElisaR
i kinda love that they are forcing the issue and making it a 35 hr gig…. although the reality is they will see those who are committed rise to the top in the end.
Anon
I don’t love it at all. I also don’t love a 50-60 hour workweek, but we have associates who apparently think they are entitled to work less than our staff. It can mess up benefits, FMLA calculations, all sorts of things.
Anon
Wait, how?
Anon
For FMLA, at least as I understand it, employees must have worked at least 1250 hours in the 12 months prior to the start of FMLA leave. For employees who clock in and out, it’s easy to track. But it becomes more difficult for associates, where the only record of time spent working would probably be their timekeeping entries. Our management recently had to tell associates that they need to enter at least 37.5 work-related hours (not even billable, just work-related hours – so if they go to a marketing lunch, etc.) in the system every week. That’s ridiculously low.
Anonymous
I’m not the person you’re replying to, but the OP mentioned 35 hour weeks. In my org (non-law), you have to be billing 40 hours to be considered full time and eligible for the full-strength benefits and qualify for FMLA.
Anon
I kind of love it too. I don’t think it will work out favorably for these specific associates, but the times are changing and talented millennials are coming in knowing what they want and less willing to put up with the insane working demands of yesteryear. It’s going to take time but a shift is underway.
Anonymous
+1 as one such jr. associate, it’s nice to hear that others are setting similarly healthy boundaries.
Anonymous
Lolz have fun being unemployed
Anonymous
Enjoy your lack of FMLA when you try to take maternity leave.
Anonymous
y’all are about to be shifted right out.
Anon
I don’t understand comments about working 35 hour weeks meaning no FMLA. FMLA is a law and it covers everyone who has worked (not billed!) 1,250 hours in the past year and meets the other requirements.
Anonymous
Read the math above. 9-4:30pm is not 1250 hours a year.
Anon
Yeah, such a weird thing to be fixated on, and I’m pretty sure they’re incorrect.
Math for the win!
Yes, just for people who want to double check the math, 9:00 – 4:30 = 7.5 hours a day. Even deducting an hour for lunch and two weeks off, they’re still well over 1250/yr (6.5 x 5 x 50 = 1625).
anon
9-4:30 is 35 hours a week, which is a lot more than 1250 hours a year assuming the person isn’t taking an unheard if amount of vacation.
A person would working 35 hours a week would only need to work 36 weeks/year in order to reach the 1250 threshold.
Anon
Then get used to being paid less. No one is paying you six figures at the age of 25 to have work-life balance; they are paying you to give them your entire life.
If you’re okay making that trade-off, that’s fine, but you do not get the advantages of workaholic cultures (i.e. huge salaries) without the sacrifices.
Anonymous
This is great *as long as* salary expectations are changed commensurately.
Anonymous
Right. I’m an older millennial and I am all about work-life balance. But if you are getting paid $190k as a first year lawyer, you are clearly being paid for your time and availability in addition to your actual work product.
The other objection I have to this mentality is that the law is a collaborative profession. I believe in working with my case team. If the mid and senior associates are working until 7pm every day, I am not walking out the door at 5pm as a first or second year. I’m asking them what I can do to help my team. Of course, there are exceptions to the rule. It’s super annoying to work with poor planners who mess around all day, get working at 5pm and dump work on the junior’s desk at 10pm.
Of course, clear expectations are needed – I can count on one hand the number of junior associates I have worked with over the years who did NOT need some kind of chat about expectations. Many of them truly had not considered that if they ignored emails or turned in crappy work (or not at all), they were forcing the other team members to pick up their slack by doing their work for them.
Anon
“It’s super annoying to work with poor planners who mess around all day, get working at 5pm and dump work on the junior’s desk at 10pm.” Yes, this. Why not look at the actual productivity of the person in question rather than the butt-in-seat-after-5 metric? I would hazard a guess that at least some of the more senior people could be more productive throughout the day and not stay past 6 or 7 or regularly – at least that’s how it is in my (non-law – consulting) job.
Anon
At every law firm I know about, they do look at the metrics of billable hours, not the appearance of face time. It’s not that they just expect you to be sitting in your seat, you get no credit for that. You need to be billing hours, which you can only do when actually working, and available when senior people need you for something. People don’t care where you are when you answer the 7pm email, they just care that they get an answer.
Ribena
Hard agree. The only way systems change is by people changing them.
Jeffiner
Why ISN’T this a 35-hour a week job? I’m an older millennial, and I’ve come to a realization that overtime is rarely worth it. In my industry there may be a random day here or there where everyone needs to pull out all the stops, but for the major months-long projects when management asks everyone to stay late or work weekends, its only to meet a deadline in some spreadsheet and not anything tangible.
Anon
I agree with this. I can completely, 100% why being a trauma surgeon for Doctors without Borders is not going to be a 40-hour a week job, but I’ve never understood the importance of made-up deadlines that have no real impact on anyone. For most of the work that I and my friends do, it makes little difference whether we have the brief drafted by 7 pm on Monday or the following Tuesday or whether we hit interim milestone 47.b.1 in November rather than December. I guess another exception would be court filings, but even those deadlines are pretty dang arbitrary and not truly worthy of the fear and awe they inspire.
Anon
It could be, in theory, if people are willing to accept a lower salary. Biglaw did not use to require nearly the hours it does now 20-30 years ago, but they also make a fraction of what associates make now. If associates are willing to accept $100k salaries, they can have a normal work schedule. But when they want to start at $190k, they have to do something to justify that salary.
Anonymous
The problem is it’s filtered down to firms that don’t pay biglaw salaries. I know associates making less than 100k whose firms have the same billable hours requirements as those making 180k. (Yes, those firms wonder why they keep losing associates to other firms). Heck, my firm has staff attorneys that make less than 100k and still end up working just as much as partner-track associates. I don’t know what the answer is, but I do know the ability to work anywhere is both a blessing and a curse and I would take a significant pay cut to take a job where I actually only worked 40 hours a week (I’m looking, though government jobs seem to be the only one close to that for lawyers and those are hard to come by).
Anonymous
I don’t know what you do Jeffiner, but in law, it’s not a 35-hour week because the case load you need to maintain to meet the hour requirement that allows you to receive the compensation people have come to expect requires working 40-60 hours in most cases. I’m not knocking the idea of a 35-hour week in law, but comp will go down if that happens.
one of the dreaded millennials
Completely agree. Particularly in “regional mid-size,” where the $190k+ that people are talking about is not what those first-years are making.
I’m a transactional biglaw senior associate on track for partner in a few years, although I won’t go up in my 7th year because I took my time ramping down/up before and after two maternity leaves. I had my first baby in law school so when I started as a first-year associate with a nursing baby at home I definitely wasn’t staying in the office past 4:30 or working on weekends unless there was a specific reason I needed to (more than “this isn’t a 35-hour/week job” lol), and now I have three kids, so I haven’t ever been doing the stay-till-seven just-in-case thing.
Law firm work culture stinks, and I see most people my age (32) just not into it. We set boundaries for ourselves and our families. The older lawyers who are brainwashed into thinking it has to be long, miserable hours don’t like it, but they can try setting boundaries too if they want to, and then maybe we can change the work culture to be more friendly for all kinds of people who have responsibilities outside of work.
Anonymous
+1 million to all of this!!!
Anonymous
You’re on partner track in Biglaw and never work past 7pm. Sure. Sounds realistic.
one of the dreaded millennials
I work after 7! I just don’t stay at the office until then. I regularly work after my kids are in bed until whenever the work is done, but only if there actually is work that needs to be done that can’t wait.
It’s also true that I lucked into a great practice group that doesn’t have it out for associates and is realistic about client demands. Which is why I still work here. Obviously the firm would love it if I worked a lot more – I get the economics of it. I’m just not going to and neither are many of my peers, which I think is great and a necessary corrective to the insane ideas around work the generation above us has.
anon
Why can’t you just set this expectation clearly? Law firm partners (especially in large firms) can be so passive aggressive. Maybe you all think it’s obvious? Or is it a test? You want to see which associates are naturally inclined to work very hard– whether because they are truly dedicated to the Cause, or because they are neurotic, insecure people-pleasers, or anywhere in between? Just tell them, and if they don’t meet your expectations after you have laid them out, sit them down and ask them if they’ve thought about the direction they’d like to take their career in after they exit from the firm. In 6 months. No one wins when you hide the ball.
Angela
100%, this. I feel like senior people at law firms can be like the stereotypical resentful wife who won’t explain what’s wrong because “I shouldn’t have to tell you.” The law is a training profession. That means not only training on the substance of the law and how to practice but on office culture, availability expectations, responsiveness, etc. People don’t know what they don’t know.
Anon
+a million!
780
At my firm, we have a series of mandatory trainings for first years. The first one is titled something like adjusting to firm life, and talks about expectations around hours and work quality. It’s always taught by one of the senior standoffish partners. It may not be fun, but it does do a good job at setting expectations and teaches some practical work skills like how to discuss deadlines and ask about expected future work on a matter.
Examples of things covered include:
– everything turned in to a senior person should be final product
– why deadlines matter and what to do if you think you may miss a deadline
– what work hour expectations are and when you should be keeping on top of your phone
– what billable hour expectations are, when you can say no to additional work because you are too busy, and how to check with partners on your existing matters if you are asked to work on something new
Flats Only
Honestly this is really great. So nice to have it laid out vs. distributed via rumor and vague hazing practices.
anon
Agree with everyone else about being direct and spelling the expectations out clearly. I’m also amused at new associates these days. We were talking to a summer associate offeree who was upset that he didn’t get more senior partner attention before he got the office and that he “really needs to work at a place that will make him feel special.” I just think the narrative we peddle when recruiting doesn’t match the reality of the job so we can attract people who don’t have the right expectations about what the work will actually be like. And we’re not really doing anything to change that.
Anon
As everyone above has said, you have a hard conversation with them about expectations.
My other suggestion is not hire recent grads. Find associates who are a bit older and who are hungry for work – or at least experiment with going that route and see how it shakes out.
Angela
I mean… explain it to them? When I was an associate, I set boundaries and worked as much as I thought was necessary, and I figured the partners would let me know if they had an issue with it. They did, but far too late, after a ton of resentment had built up on their part. Your junior associates aren’t mind-readers, and presumably they’re not purposely flouting expectations.
MNF
Is their salary commensurate with the market? In my small city, there are the big firms that have higher expectations hours wise and pay accordingly; but the smaller firms that pay less have more reasonable hours. If you sold them on being at a lifestyle firm, they may not realize what the real expectations are.
lawsuited
When I was in private practice it would have been impossible to hit target if I was only working 35 hours per week. If they’re not hitting target, then fire them. If your associates currently think hitting target is optional, firing some for not hitting target should recalibrate that.
Anon
Or..you know. Talk to them first. You must be awful to work with if your first instinct is “fire a few to scare them to get in line” instead of more clearly communicate expectations. Also “fire a few” as an example isn’t really done in big (or even well known mid) law. That’s a quick way for clients to think there is something financially concerning with your firm and end up on the legal gossip blogs.
Anonymous
Wow, if your mentality is representative of your firm I would not want to work there. Yikes! Have fun working 60 hours a week.
anon
What do y’all do when you walk into a stall and see pee on the toilet seat? Do you wipe it up? Skip that stall? What if there is a line or someone else in the bathroom?
Also, seriously, women, stop peeing on the seat!
anon8
I usually skip the stall and go to another one regardless of whether or not someone else is in the bathroom. If there is a line, then I would probably just wipe it off.
Everyone should do a quick check before leaving the stall to make sure everything is clean.
Anonymous
Are we seriously talking about this? I agree it’s gross, but why do we have to talk about it here? I come to this site to hear about fashion, work issues, travel…not pee on the seat.
Anonanonanon
My longstanding stance on this is that if no one would squat over the seat, no one would have to squat over the seat! It has to be the squatters that are dripping onto the seat, I don’t know how else it’s possible!
If there is a line I take a huge wad of toilet paper and wipe it.
Anonymous
Yes — I am a Virgo and feel that I cannot leave pee on a seat, even if not mine. Huge wad to wipe it in, then flush.
Worry About Yourself
I do not understand people who get fluids on the seat and just leave it there, how do they justify this? Are they just not checking before leaving the stall? Or the people who fill the toilet with all sorts of waste and leave it unflushed. Or the people who tear off the end of the toilet paper and just drop it on the ground. Like, do they not realize someone else will be using that stall shortly after they leave? Do they not care? Who are these people and who raised them?
I’ll clean the seat if there’s a line behind me, but if there’s someone else in the bathroom and other stalls available (and that other person won’t be saddled with the gross stall when I move on to the next one), I’ll find a cleaner one.
Anonymous
IDK — I was on the metro once and a lady was using tissues. And dropping them on the floor. In front of her kids, who did not seem to find this remarkable. Some people are just . . . feral? I don’t know how these sorts of things are remotely OK by any people anywhere, but it exists.
Anon
Yep. I rode Bart with someone who repeatedly spit on the floor and when another woman asked her to stop, she screamed “shut up b*tch.” She did not appear to be mentally ill (she carried on a conversation with her friend otherwise), but rather raised very poorly, possibly by wolves.
Anonymous
Honestly, I think that wolves are better than that. Predators have no time for nonsense.
Anonymous
Nothing to add about squatters but will note one thing I have occasionally observed is an extremely vigorous flushing mechanism which can spray out of the bowl and leave traces of water on the seat as well.
Fashion Inspiration
Ladies, what are you wearing today?
I work in a business formal (albeit on the more casual side of business formal) biglaw office, and realized I have been wearing aome combinatiom of the same black / gray pencil pants / skirts + cowlneck or round neck sweaters in 8 different colors for the past…three months. And the past three winters before that. I’m on a shopping ban, but I’m as sick of these outfits as I was of my very boring public middle school uniform.
Fashion Inspiration
Same* not aome.
Anonymous
Designed to be un-tucked patterned blouse. It would have looked great with black wool trousers and black heels, but the pants were at their maximum density and didn’t fit. Work with black jeans that do fit and flats. It’s a bit go-to-hell, but it’s a Monday.
Grade: C- (but office is casual, so will round up to a gentlewoman’s C because the outfit is at least intentional )
Ribena
Today I’m wearing a maroon corduroy skirt, a dark blue casual-ish button up shirt (matte fabric and it has pockets) and a grey thin cardigan, with a big camel coloured hand knit shawl over my shoulders because it’s freezing and huge chunky boots for the same reason. I’ve had all of these items except the boots for at least three years, and it’s very much my usual outfit formula, so I feel you! Business casual and I don’t have any meetings today.
Worry About Yourself
Black ankle pants, white t-shirt, black buttoned cardigan, and black pumps. It’s a little more formal than I need to be, but I need the black pants and cardigan for an easy transition to tonight’s hockey game!
Cb
Black jeans, a chambray button down, cardigan and a giant scarf. And Sperry duckboots as I have no meetings and it’s snowing.
Gigi
Black leather pencil skirt, black balloon sleeve knit, black ankle boots, black tights
back to biglaw
It’s rainy and dreary here, so I went with unexpected color. Mustard yellow skinny slacks with a wide cuff (15 inches), so they fall just above the ankle. Black eyelet shell. Black suit jacket. Patent black point toe heels (3.5 inch heel). Oversized earrings with mustard yellow, pink, and blue gemstones.
CountC
I did the same thing! Bright yellow pencil skirt, navy blue flowy sleeved top tucked in, patent brown pumps.
Anon
I’m looking at a yellow skirt at Brooks Brothers, and you two have convinced me that it’s worth going for.
Cowls and round neck?
I have a number of those and would love to wear them to work. I am leery though because the only sweaters that seem acceptable in my office are cardigans. And no cropped or shorter cardigans. Does sweater weather require a cardigan?
PolyD
Speaking as an older woman (52), I would ask if your colleagues also skew toward the older and female. I only wear cardigans to the office in case of temperature fluctuations – much easier to take off a cardigan than a pull-over.
Otherwise I can’t imagine why a pull-over would be a problem, as long as it’s in good condition.
Diana Barry
Boden ottoman dress in green with pink accent stripe, pink BR blazer (matches the stripe), tights, flat ankle boots. Also black heattech shirt under the dress (hidden bc blazer).
M
Black pants, black shell, black boots, and herringbone blazer (black and cream). I’m not in New York, I just had a busy morning and not a lot of time to put an outfit together.
Legally Brunette
Work from home full time. Zella moto leggings, Zella T-shirt, hair in bun, sunscreen on but no makeup.
I told myself I would wear proper work clothes now that I have transitioned to working from home and yet here I am. :)
bellatrix
Casual office. Black crew-neck sweater, jade green skinny pants (technically jeans, I guess), black booties. Statement necklace (the RBG dissent collar), black button earrings.
Beaglelover
We are business casual and I have no meetings scheduled for today, plus I just got back from a tropical vacation and have forgotten how to wear formal attire. I opted for skinny white pants, long black tank with white pinstripes, long white cardigan and red Rothy’s.
Senior Attorney
I am a tiny bit crazy today but I kind of love it. J Crew black and white polka dot midi skirt, BR black and white striped sweater (slightly cropped, v. wide stripes), my fave very old Doc Marten high heeled saddle oxfords, blingy statement necklace, rainbow striped handbag.
Jules
Oh my gosh I love this.
pugsnbourbon
Oh my gosh I love this.
Angela
So I’m wearing a blouse that I would actually never buy for myself but that was sent to me from Gwynnie Bee and exemplifies why I love this service. It’s a long Calvin Klein tunic-style button down in a blue snakeskin print. The shape feels very current/trendy. I’m wearing it with basic black skinny pants and black leather flats.
Anonymous
Red Theory short sleeve suiting dress (Valentines!), black stockings, black jimmy choo rain boots. They look like riding boots but keep me warm because they are totally plastic.
Anonymous
I am wearing a black suit, tan silk Reiss top and tan block heel pumps. If you see me, wave!
Whatdayisit?
Good morning hive. My family(4 adults, 1 teenager, 2 toddlers) is planning to visit tokyo in a few weeks and the coronavirus updates are worrying. Would you cancel/reschedule the trip? I’m usually not worried about such things but bringing toddlers along is making me weigh the risks. What would you do?
Anonymous
Go and not worry
BabyAssociate
+1
anon
+1. I’m going to Tokyo soon and would not entertain the idea of canceling or rescheduling.
Flats Only
I would keep my plans. I would also make sure I had really, really good travel medical insurance with evacuation included, in case someone gets ill. But on the other hand, I don’t know that I would be bothering to take toddlers to Tokyo in the first place – is this to visit family or something, or just to do tourist stuff? If just tourist stuff I might postpone it, assuming I could still cancel flights/hotels/tours, etc.
Anon
I highly, highly doubt that they would evacuate someone with coronavirus. The more likely situation if someone got sick is that you end up at a hospital in Japan, where you don’t speak the language and may end up with a huge bill.
Flats Only
In which case the travel medical insurance pays the bill. And probably provides a case manager, translator, etc. That’s why you buy it. In case of hospital stays in foreign places.
Anon
This. You would absolutely not be evacuated. Evacuation means being flown by helicopter to the nearest hospital when you’re in a remote, rural place with no hospital. Tokyo is obviously not that place.
Worry About Yourself
It depends. How anxious are you? What, if anything, will it cost to cancel the trip? How long have you been anticipating this, and how much of a bummer would it be if you had to put it off for possibly another year or two? Because if it’s easy to simply delay this trip until the outbreak is over, and you can get your money back and put it towards an equally enjoyable trip that’s more local, and that would be better for your mental health, then do it. If you’d lose a lot of money and can’t guarantee to re-plan the trip later, and your teenager wouldn’t get to join in the fun if you go a year or two down the road, then you should probably go and try to enjoy it.
Anon
Personally I’d consider canceling if only because of the impact on flights and flight routes in the region that go beyond China, and not wanting to get stuck or significantly delayed. I work in an office with lots of international travel and have had coworkers have flights canceled in the last few weeks that came as surprises, and travel in the region that is scheduled for the next four months is currently being reconsidered. It’s such a fluid situation that I’d be cautious.
Whatdayisit?
That’s an angle I hadn’t considered yet. I would really hate to be delayed significantly with kids
Anonymous
Would this be an issue on a direct to Tokyo flight? I can’t see LA – Tokyo being delayed because of issues in China.
Anon
I would probably cancel. I’m generally not a risk adverse person, but the cruse ship situation freaks me out. I just feel like I wouldn’t enjoy my trip.
Anon
Cruise ships are so different, though.
Anon
There’s no way I’d go. Not even so much fear of catching it — though it is spreading — but more fear of flight cancelations on the way back. Airlines are adjusting flights on a daily basis these days; some have been required cancelation (Wuhan only) but lots have been — we’re seeing a lack of demand so we’re canceling this schedule and dropping down to 8 flights a week instead of 14 and we’ll do our best to rebook you — oh sorry the earliest we can get you on is 4 days after you were supposed to leave.
Plus are you intended to wear masks etc. everywhere? Is that going to be easy with toddlers who tend to have no control and touch everything? Planes are big, rarely cleaned, and you have no idea who is returning from where. I don’t see how this vacation is worth it at all.
anon
So I take it you get your flu jab every year, as does your family?
Anon
Not the person you’re responding to but yes, I get a flu shot every year and so does my family, and I wouldn’t travel to China right now. I’m not sure what you’re being snarky about but you do know that the flu shot doesn’t cover Coronavirus, right?
anon
No but the flu this year has been WAY WAY more deadly than coronavirus so far
Anonymous
Flu may be more deadly as in numbers who die, but not more deadly as in your individual risk of dying from the infection. Coronavirus’ case fatality rate is multiples that of the flu.
pugsnbourbon
Coronavirus’ case fatality is tracking around 2%; this season’s flu is .05%. It’s predicted that the rate for novel coronavirus will drop as testing and reporting increase.
Personally I’d still go to Tokyo, particularly if it’s a direct flight from the US. Definitely wouldn’t go on a cruise right now, but I’m cruise-averse in any scenario.
Anon
Yes – every single year since age 18. Why is that everyone’s response? IDK why people turn down vaccination for preventative things but I certain do not. It’s like everyone wants to say — oh you’re being sooooo hysterical about things that are unlikely while ignoring likelier risks — well I’m not ignoring the likelier risk.
Anon
Hi from Tokyo! Come on over. It’ll be fine. The city is delightfully non-crowded right now because of a big drop in the usual numbers of Chinese visitors. Flights to China are cancelled/reduced but flights to elsewhere are running fine.
Anonymous
Does anyone have a spouse in the military? I’m starting to get serious with a guy in the Navy and I’m wondering what a future might look like. We’re both mid-30s; he wants to stay in for another couple of years for his pension, but because of my age, kids would need to happen before he gets out. I’m in non-NYC biglaw, moving is not an option for me, and neither of us has local family. Any thoughts or resources or questions I should ask him?
Anonymous
Only he can really tell you what his upcoming career might look like.
Anonymous
I have found that if you are that old (likely experience-wise) and settled in your practice, BigLaw will give you a chance at remote work to keep you, especially as they bleed mid-career woman. So don’t rule that out — insist on it all the way to failure and I bet you will get a decent off-ramp period as long as you are trying very hard to make it work. Old guys at your firm may be veterans, so play to this.
Military healthcare is good to phenomenal (and predicatable). Fisher Houses are amazing. I have friends in military healthcare and they are generally married moms who are still married to trailing guy spouses 15-20+ years in.
You working in BigLaw will be an outlier (you working at all may be), but I feel that it is a culture that understands work and sacrifice and may be more welcoming individually than it may seem en masse, if that makes sense. Also, many women spouses your age may have much older children, so that can be a gift of women with experience with kids, with time to be of help, and with babysitting age kids no matter where you go in the world.
I know this only as a friend (and a sister — my BIL was Army for 10 years, now out). But it is a very welcoming community and I saw that as a BigLaw partner who married later and had kids later and have been a frequent on-base visitor.
ALSO : all of my Navy friends have been Hawaii at some point; Navy has the best housing of any service
OP
Thanks, these are all really good thoughts. Just to clarify – I have a growing book (hope to make equity partner in 5 years or less) so I’m not really willing to move my practice and I’m not interesting in off ramping.
Anonymous
IMO lawyers can be remote and still work just fine. You will probably need a nanny if you have kids (and maybe 1.5 nannies) or be willing to fly in parents. Your location should matter not a whit if you are a BigLaw partner.
Anon
I responded below but didn’t see this. He WILL have to move somewhere. If you aren’t willing to move/work remotely/shift away from a traditional equity partner role, this might not be the relationship for you. Long distance is brutal and not often successful.
cbackson
My personal experience is that, unfortunately, it’s difficult for a non-military spouse to sustain a successful and time-consuming career unless that career is geographically mobile or you’re comfortable with being long-distance for extended periods of time. You need to figure out how much longer he’ll be staying in and how many times he expects to relocate before he gets out. My cousin and his wife have been LD for nearly half of their marriage (he’s Navy and she’s a doctor with a very uncommon speciality) and it’s been extremely, extremely hard. He missed most of his kids’ under-five year.
Anonymous
I have seen accountants and nurses make it work, with great success for the accountant.
And at my level of seniority in BigLaw, if I said I was going to work from random places from time to time, my clients would be fine with it so my firm would be (otherwise, I’d lateral to another BigLaw firm that would be fine with it).
cbackson
Time to time is different than “remotely from another state for 2 years.” Among other things, that potentially has tax and other implications for the firm (bc they now have an employee or partner located in a state where they aren’t otherwise set up to comply with local laws). My firm generally couldn’t accommodate a long term remote work situation unless the associate or partner was moving to a state where we already had an office or paid taxes.
Anon
If you are unwilling to move (and assuming you are not in DC, which depending on specialty can be easier to stay in the area), you will spend the vast majority of his remaining service time long distance. If you have kids, you will effectively be a single mother on a day-to-day, week-to-week basis when also having a partner who expects to be consulted about decisions. After he gets out, you will have to adjust to living together and parenting as a team after you have been doing it sole for a long time.
Only you can make a decision whether that is ok with you.
Anon
Moving may not be an option for you, but it will likely be mandatory for him.
Best case scenrio you’re in DC and he can string together DC assignments until he hits his 20 years. Or you go long-distance for awhile (with possible young kids and no local family, this sounds very hard). Maybe your office will let you work from home from a distance for a stint (I think companies are willing to do this to visibly support the miliary, but it will likely come at the expense of making partner). Overall, military life is still very focused on having a non-working or super flexible spouse. Good luck.
Anonymous
Non military experience, but my husband works for a government agency that relocated him regularly. We have only done major relo twice since being married: once to HI and once to Japan. I practice Biglaw and I went 80% and remote and we moved to HI. I worked on matters pertaining to a specific client in Japan and traveled HI -> Tokyo. Then we moved back “home” to DC for four years. We had two kids 18 months apart and when our youngest was 6 months old we moved to Tokyo for 3 years. We had a live in nanny and it was amazing.
DH now commutes to DC, I work in NYC and also remotely. We live in NJ, near my parents. Kids are almost in middle school and DH has one year before retirement.
Anonymous
Your lifestyles sound inherently incompatible. Doesn’t being in the military necessitate moving, as a matter of course? If you can’t move, then . . .?
Anon
How many years does he have left? Maybe 5 or so? How long has he been in his current assignment? (Is he due to move shortly?) He’s got 2, maybe 3 moves left in his career. I think you can make that work. At the end of a career, you’re just looking at the years til retirement and counting them down against the PCS (Permanent Change of Station) clock. He should be able to game out the rest of his career pretty well at this point – I’d ask him about what he sees coming next for him.
Servicemembers get to put together an assignment wish list – the more senior you are, the more you can call your other senior friends and try to work something out. That said, the more senior you are, the fewer slots there are for you, so you have to choose the best out of limited options.
The Navy is (obviously) based primarily on the coasts, so you should be near somewhere that has a good sized legal market. (Count your lucky stars he’s not Army.) I wouldn’t necessarily expect an OCONUS (Outside CONtintental U.S.) assignment unless he’s due for one.
And yes, the healthcare and pension make it all worth it. So, so worth it. If he retires as an O-5, he’s looking at free healthcare for his family and ~$50k a year for the rest of his life with COLAs.
Very private anon
Married to to a (now) ex-Army officer here.
It is very hard to combine two careers in the military, let alone lawyer and military (speaking from experiene here, me being able to have a career in law was one of the reasons my husband got out after 10 years. We did long distance throughout dating, engagement and the first year of marriage before he got out ).
Most of my friends married to the military are either military themselves or have jobs that can easily transfer to different locations/working on base like nurses, teacher, photographers, etc.
How many years does he have left? Being stationed overseas usually is a real possibility and often makes working remotely very difficult due to vastly different time zones.
Even if you never move abroad as a family, deployments or extended TDYs are very common, so keep that in mind when thinking about kids and careers; lots of solo-parenting often on short notice.
He will get limited say in where he will move in the upcoming years, some rotations might be fantastic (Italy, Hawaii!!) but some might not be.
Everyone is used to moving around a lot, so it is usually easy to make friends but you will be an outlier if you are over 30 with no kids, this can make socializing difficult.
Being a military spouse can be a bit of a culture shock, especially if you didnt grow up in a military community or family, so I would encourage you to spend time on base, attend military balls, meet some of the spouses…
AnonInHouse
My husband is in army JAG, so a bit different from the Navy, probably. Each branch and each job within each brand is going to look different, so you just have to discuss all this with him. Some jobs / career tracks require frequent relocations; others don’t. Within some installations, there are numerous jobs; does he have superiors who will go to bat for him to help him stay in the same area? (For example, we stayed 6 years in one location; my husband worked 4 jobs during that time, but we never had to move.) Is he willing to go into the reserves rather than active duty? He would still be entitled to full retirement, but it’s deferred (not sure on the exact details). How in-demand is his specialty? That may influence how willing his superiors are going to be to give him his assignment preferences.
Within the army, at least, there’s a big talent retention problem because of dual-career households; the military is not designed to accommodate spouse careers at all, but especially among the professional branches (law, medicine, etc.) there’s more understanding of the need to accommodate spouse careers. There are milspouses who maintain great careers, but it’s rare (underemployment is estimated to be something like 90%). I know personally of one spouse who is in Biglaw; she simply doesn’t move with her husband and they don’t have kids (yet?). I know of a spouse who is an AUSA; she somehow works remotely. I work in house and work remotely, and consider myself to have the “unicorn” of milspouse jobs.
navychica
Husband and I were both active Navy until last March; we left at the 7-8 year mark because we couldn’t balance dual-military and children. Biggest thing for you to consider is where he is in his career; is he officer or enlisted? If you’re in San Diego or Norfolk, you can probably stay in the same area until he gets out, but no guarantee. The pension is nice, but what’s his plan afterwards? Is he going to school? Stay-at-home dad? Has he used his GI bill yet?
Anon
What’s a couple years? Does that mean 2 — which would be NBD assuming you are wanting to get married and have a planned wedding first rather than just going to the courthouse tomorrow; with a wedding + pregnancy, you’ve eaten up 15 mos at least out of his remaining 24 months. If it means 6 or 8 years then you’re looking at something different. You’re looking at basically being long distance and a single mom until you’re kids are in early elementary. It’s likely doable monetarily — you’d continue to work, have 1-2 nannies, and dad would visit as and when he could. It’s more about how willing you are to do this + how does he feel about seeing his kids on weekends at best (and that’s unlikely as he’s not always going to be stationed 2 hrs away) or a few times a yr at worst (if he gets stationed half way around the world).
Questions to ask:
What’s a couple years?
Are you actually committed to leaving when that time is up? There’s a % of guys who say they’ll retire once they’re eligible but when that time comes, they really can’t see themselves doing anything in the civilian world/are scared to make that shift. I’ve definitely seen it in guys who went to the academies — they are either 5 and fly or they’re in for life even if they say, oh I’m leaving when I hit 20 years. Many of them end up returning to the academies to teach; it’s literally the only life they’ve known since 18 so it isn’t so easy to leave it behind at 38 or 43 or whatever.
When you leave are you committed to living in my city because I am 100% not leaving my firm? A lot of guys who leave end up at defense contractors etc. because that’s where networking lands them — so if you’re biglaw in Boston and all his contacts are leading him to jobs in DC, how does that work?
For those saying — just ask your firm for remote work, I’d tread VERY lightly. I take it you’re a senior associate or non equity partner? Every firm is different, but at my firm they have NO hesitation to push people out for demonstrating the slightest bit of a need for flexibility (let alone something like needing to telework for 5 years). And yes they do this while lamenting the lack of senior women. And yes they do this to people who were absolute stars. They’re short sighted and this see it as “one less mouth to feed for someone who doesn’t REALLY want to be here bc suddenly she has other life interests and isn’t as committed as she used to be . . . .” You know your firm best but roll slowly with this. Times are good right now but we will have a recession in the next year or two and then they will use any reason to push people out — including that time 2 years ago that you suggested you’d rather work remotely from Hawaii.
In House Lobbyist
My husband is former military. We were married when I was in law school and we never lived together while he was in. We never lived on base and I never went more than a handful of times. You didn’t say if he was an officer or enlisted – it makes a huge difference in terms of flexibility, control and honestly treatment in the military. I work for a company with military ties and we strive to hire veterans and military spouses and work on military spouse hiring on a policy level. Many high level career women are un/ underemployed when they have to follow their military spouse husbands – take a look at military spouse group for lawyers. It depends on how long and where he will be – Navy will be on a coast or overseas most likley. My husband and I lived apart for essentially 5 years (he was a private contractor afterwards) so we waited 10 years to have kids.
OP
Thanks, everyone. To answer some questions:
– He’s enlisted
– He’ll hit the 20 year mark in 3 years but it’s just about time for him to sign up for another 4 years.
– He’s going to be stationed a 2 hour train ride away for the next 4 year stint.
Anonymous
Military Spouse JD Network way have some helpful resources.
For a separation, two hours by train is not bad
Anonymous
Re-posting with more details – I’m looking for recommendations (areas and/or specific hotels/resorts) for places to stay in San Diego. My husband and I are planning a birthday/baby moon trip for a long weekend at the end of March or early April. We would like to stay somewhere we can walk to (and along) the beach, and not too far from good/foodie restaurants. TIA!
Anonymous
Hotel Del Coronado is basically your only beach front San Diego option
Anonymous
Maybe another option could be Lo Jolla Beach & Tennis Club? Caveat I have visited the area but am not super familiar.
Angela
Capri by the Sea is walkable to beaches. It’s condo rental though not hotel.
Anon
I’ve stayed at the Catamaran and liked it. There are a bunch of hotels around there – I’ve heard Tower23 is nice. Mission beach/Pacific beach area may be what you are looking for.
Bloomberg
Is Bloomberg going to buy the election (or at least the candidacy)? Unlike Pete, he has been a mayor of a major city. And does not seem to be leftish, economically (I am not a fan of how he treated sodas and cigarettes though — too much nanny state control for my liking). Now that there is carnage and some too-left-to-be-electable people left at the top, I think that this could really happen. [And have no idea who his running mate might be — maybe Pete to balance out the ticket with a midwesternern veteran? Klobuchar b/c she probably wouldn’t throw things at him?] This world is crazy.
Anonymous
Idk who you are but your posts are all the same. Really weird tone, really weird hysteria, just stirring the pot.
Anonymous
I mean if the choices are two NYC billionaries. I’d take Bloomberg over the orange one in a heartbeat.
If Biden drops out I think Bloomberg will pick up a lot of support from people who want an ‘electable’ candidate (as in code for an old, middle of the road, white guy).
Anon
Is he making actual inroads, though? I know the press is talking about him, but is he polling well in Super Tuesday states? It’s Super Tuesday or bust for him, I think. I’m in Virginia (a Super Tuesday state) and have heard a couple radio ads, but that’s it.
Anonymous
I’m in NC and we’re basically blanketed by Bloomberg ads. Most recent poll I saw is he’s currently polling a close third behind Sanders (Biden in first). He’s also the only candidate I’ve actually seen yard signs for, somewhat surprisingly. We’ll see. I am dreading the political advertising we’re going to endure when we get closer to November. In addition to the presidency, our Senate race is going to be heavily targeted. Cost of living in a purple state.
Anon
I think how Bloomberg does on Super Tuesday is highly dependent on how Biden does on Super Tuesday. If Biden implodes before then, which seems likely, Bloomberg has a pretty good chance
Anon
Where are you in Virginia? I’m in Va. too and we are blanketed by Bloomberg ads. And unlike the others he’s being smart and spending his time on super Tuesday states + the states that must be flipped back in order for Dems to win — Mich; Wisc etc.
emeralds
Yeah, I’m in VA and I hear Bloomberg ads more than any others.
Anonymous
With Biden’s ad re Mayor Pete’s decorating, I am just stabby. Not all gay men decorate. Some serve in the military, something Biden hasn’t done.
Anon
Bloomberg isn’t actually running for President; he’s using his candidacy to run ads against Trump without being hindered by campaign finance laws. See, he’s allowed to self-finance a campaign, and run almost whatever ads he wants as part of that. If he were donating money to defeat Trump, he would be limited in the number of avenues and the amount of money he could donate to each candidate or PAC.
Anonymous
Can you tell me more about this? Do you think he intends to weaken Trump’s candidacy and then drop out? Because I kind of think he does want to be president, and I’m not impressed by the ad he’s running in NYC about Trump’s failure to keep preexisting conditions — whenever I watch the ad, all I hear is “Trump promised to keep preexisting conditions …” and then I see a bunch of images of Bloomberg at a podium. The real messages doesn’t come across when you’re only half-listening or fast-forwarding on your DVR. It might be helping Trump? IDK
Anon
This isn’t true from a legal prospective. There are limits on how much he could donate to the candidates, but he could donate as much as he wants to a Super PAC. He could also start his own Super PAC, and do the same thing he is doing with his campaign committee. If he doesn’t actually care about winning, the only big benefit from running is that he gets preferential rates for ad buys.
Anon
He’s not even going to be on the NH ballot.
Alanna of Trebond
I really want Bloomberg to be the nominee. He is my favorite candidate.
Anon
Me too.
Coach Laura
Same here. He is blanketing my cable/radio/internet airtime.
Napa
Husband and I are planning a trip to Napa in April – does anyone have tips on things to do? We have a few big-ticket items planned (wine train, a very expensive dinner), so I’m particularly looking for less-expensive things, but we’re open to splurging on a few more things.
Touring wineries sounds fun, but I’m having trouble picturing doing it for multiple days. Neither of us has ever done spa-things – should we try that out? Also, we’re flying into San Francisco – should we plan to spend some time checking that out, and if so, where would be the best places to go? We’re east-coasters, and have never spent any time in the area.
Anon
I would go spend time hiking in Point Reyes and visiting cheese shops in Marin. Look around the Nicasio area to start.
Anon
Agree with this. We also went ziplining in the Redwoods near Guerneville and that was pretty awesome.
Worry About Yourself
I’m going to Napa in April too! We’re just doing a day trip for the wine train while staying in San Francisco though. Maybe check out Groupon for deals on tours or wineries to save money, I checked there for deals on wine tours but nothing seemed as special as taking the wine train, so I decided to splurge on the Legacy tour. YOLO, and all that jazz. But we’re staying in San Francisco and making a day of that, although I honestly have no idea what that will look like.
Anon
We did the wine train 2 years ago and loved it. It’s expensive yes, but feels so fun and unique. When you add up the food, transportation, and tasting fees they include it’s not that bad.
Enjoy!
anon
It’s pretty touristy, but Alcatraz has great tours, if you’re into history. If you’ve never been to SF, that would be an interesting way to spend a half day. Also in SF, Mint 54 is a reasonably priced (for the area), cute Italian restaurant.
Senior Attorney
+1 to the Alcatraz tour. Really interesting and the boat ride is great.
Anon
(For context, I live in the area): I may be being a little alarmist, but…if your plan is to drive through San Francisco on the way to Napa and stop in the city to do some stuff on the way, I would be a little nervous to do that with all of your stuff in your car, even in your trunk. It just seems like the number of cars in SF getting broken into near touristy sites especially has spiked. So if you do do this just be super mindful of what you leave, and maybe make sure to keep anything that would be devastating to lose on you. Of course, if instead your are proposing to stay a night in SF and could leave your stuff at the hotel, that is a different story.
(Don’t mean to turn you off from SF, there are many wonderful things here! But also I could totally spend several days in just wine country and or the Point Reyes area mentioned above).
Anonymous
A partner I work closely with lost his child over the weekend. He is asking for no emails, but I have his home address. What is appropriate here? For a friend, I would show up to the house with food. For a more distant colleague, I’d send a card and a donation and go to the services if I could. This seems sort of in between though. Send a platter of sandwiches? Flowers? Wait until the firm decides what they’re doing?
Anonymous
Wait until the firm decides — it will likely send an e-mail and someone will be the point person on this. We had this where I work and it was so terribly sad — eventually, we got the person an office (from a cube) for some privacy when she came back to work after some time away.
If you know that person’s BFF, check with that person, but wait a day or two. Attend the funeral. This has a long tail, so doing something in a month or two or six may have more meaning than piling on now.
Anonymous
Send flowers or a donation and go to the services, and mail a handwritten condolence card.
Anonymous
I would show up with food. Something that doesn’t need to be heated or cooled like muffin or banana bread. Just leave it on the front porch. Do not ring the doorbell and make him or a family member talk to you. When my sister lost her baby, it was two weeks before she could deal with talking anyone other than her DH, me or our parents. Write a note so they know what it is and who it is from.
Anon Probate Lawyer
There is a company that sells comfort food, including soup, for delivery to bereaved families. (Sorry, I don’t remember the name) I would send this or another type of delivered meal. As someone who lost her mother at a young age, I know how the shock and grief hits you, and flowers don’t help. Meals are nice and help a little.
Anon
Wait for the obituary and donate to the charity they name.
I lost a child and having a house filled with flowers made me feel like a funeral home. I would much rather people had donated to the specific charity for her cancer.
Anonymous
Send a card and wait and see what the firm does and donate to whatever charity they request. I wouldn’t drop off food unless you know someone is coordinating that. Close friends lost their child recently; we designated a point person to coordinate communication and food delivery with parents from the child’s school and had we not, there would have been way more food than could be stored/consumed, even with all the friends and family in and out of the house.
Go for it
+1 let them be the lead.
Anonymous
Late in the day, but I would definitely send a card. Anything else, wait for more info. IMHO, a sympathy card, especially one with a personal message is always appropriate. Don’t expect a response or acknowledgement, obviously.
I used to work at a small company, around 100 people. When the CEO’s teenage son died in an accident, another exec coordinated a donation in son’s memory. Otherwise, we all just sent cards.
Anon
Any advice for dealing with a jealous colleague?
Go for it
I ignore it.
Anon Probate Lawyer
Kill them with kindness. Seriously, it works.
Cat
+1, especially public kindness, like saying in a meeting what a great job they did on X.
Looking for a new show
I need a new shoe to binge. I like it when there’s a romantic couple I can root for. Recently finished Virgin River. Also enjoyed Anne with an E season 3 and, perhaps improbably, Fleabag Season 2. Any recommendations? Nothing too complicated or dark – honestly Virgin River hit a pretty sweet spot for me!
Former similar favorites include Gilmore Girls, for another example. Luke and Lorelai! But in the good seasons! Used to love the Mindy Project in the romantic build-up period too?
I struggled with Four Weddings and a Funeral this summer because I’m not so sure I liked any character.
OP
by “shoe” I mean “show!”
Anon Probate Lawyer
Depends on your sense of humor, but I think Fleabag is hilarious. Also love Mrs. Maisel.
Anon
Jane the Virgin
Anonymous
The Office! Jim and Pam
Anonymous
Superstore! It is truly hilarious with some nice romance side-plots.
anne-on
Derry girls? (You may need captions on as the accents are REALLY strong)
Home for the holidays (also subtitled but fantastic)
Marvelous Mrs. Maisel
Cheer
Anon
I loved Gilmore Girls too and am currently just finishing up bingeing Bunheads, same writer. It is basically Gilmore Girls in a new setting. There’s only one season but 18 episodes and it’s cute.
Then you could follow Sutton Foster and binge Younger if you haven’t already.
anon
+1 for Younger. Love Sutton Foster and the rest of the cast.
Anon
I thought the first couple episodes of Bunheads were kind of weird, but then I really got into it. So cute (and I have no background in ballet). I wish it had more seasons!
Also +1 to Younger and Superstore.
Anony
I loved Virgin River! Just finished it yesterday and it was SO good. Have you watched Hart of Dixie? Older show but like VR with a lighter side (and the same doc!). Chesapeake Shores is a good show from Hallmark Channel, although last season was cut short because all 3 sisters were pregnant in real life. Also When Calls the Heart from Hallmark. I’m going to need to find a new show for myself when DH isn’t around…
Mallory
Not romance-focused, but I’m in season 4 of Schitt’s Creek and it has some sweet couple storylines as well as being hilarious.
AnonChi
Schitt’s Creek! I started watching from season 3 (still need to catch up on the first 2 at some point). It’s very sweet and hilarious.
Anonymous
New Girl. Every episode isn’t romantic, but over the seasons and over the series arc there are plenty of love stories to root for.
anon
Parks and Rec, if you can get over the first three or so episodes.
Anon
Just skip the whole first season. You won’t be lost if you start with Season 2 which is so much better.
anon
Superstore and New Girl (maybe skip the first few episodes. It takes a minute for them to figure out the characters)
Anon
Lucifer! Very bingeable.
Lobbyist
Cheer! Broadchurch,
Little Red
I’m going to second the recommendation for “Lucifer”!!! Excellent show. And as always, I can never recommend enough “Miss Fisher’s Murder Mysteries” if that is available to you.
Anon
I don’t think telling stories about our grandparents is relevant for today. They grew up in a very different time, with different savings/cost of living/cost of homes and different family structures.
These savings pronouncements are usually out of touch and unrealistic. Of course, the vast majority of people will never save that much and yet, somehow survive and live ok in retirement. There are many support systems in place for seniors, and Medicaid and other assistance programs (for property taxes/utilities/health insurance/food stamps) can piece together a simple existence. I actually know several seniors living like this, even in my relatively desirable suburb where we have several senior subsidized housing buildings that are very cheap for those in need. Many have family/friends that they can live with and who also give assistance. Many keep working part time in “retirement”. It is what it is.
If you want to live independently in your 3000 sq foot accessible home and die in your own bed, well that is not always realistic. If you want to subsidize living independently at home while you have progressive dementia and need 24 hour care or live in the best facility in the country that is still very unpleasant and costs $20k per month… well that is not realistic. And when/if I have dementia, I don’t care about living in the best facility in the country. Let me die/live someplace cheap on Medicaid. It will be enough. I wont know where I am. So who cares? Not my kids fortunately, because I have none. You are incredibly lucky to have a spouse saving with you. Who are already ahead of the game.
And I’ll be honest. Many of us will die younger than we expect. My mother died of cancer before she could enjoy retirement. We have a lot of cancer on her side of the family, so I know that this will likely be my way. No problem. Bury me under a tree in the woods and I’ll be happy as fertilizer, or if by miracle I die with intact corneas and a liver not full of cancer, pleas donate it to living person in need.
My parents both grew up with less than many on this board. My father was very poor, and my Mom was lower middle class. Both got full scholarships to college, and had learned early that saving/frugality was important for survival. They were big savers, and still never saved close to 40%. But they did fine.
Years of assisted living in a very desirable location or retirement to a nice CCRC is not realistic for most of us who are not rich. If that is your goal, yes… start saving now and get higher paying jobs and start playing the market. But most of us will continue to live, which is better than 95% of the world, and we will be ok.
edj3
Who was the poster who does jewelry on Etsy?
Kanye West? Ugh I don’t remember and I wanted to check something out.
Lyssa
I’m pretty sure she used the handle Kanye East, though I can’t remember whether she used that name in her Etsy shop or not.
AFT
Kanye East! :) I think her shop name had “geegaws” in it? I can’t find it now though.
Anne
Is this it? https://www.etsy.com/shop/gewgaws. Guess I’ve been reading here a long time.
AFT
Yes! Good detective work, Anne! And… same.
anne-on
Yes, and I’ve been reading here long enough that I have a piece or two from her. Very nicely made and I wear my double strand pearly necklace a ton.
Anon
I favorited it.
It’s called Gewgaws and she’s out of Denver CO.
edj3
Thank you! I was so annoyed I couldn’t remember–now off to look at her stuff :)
Hazel
More wedding planning questions!
My fiancee and I are both in our mid-30s. We live in a small, one-bedroom condo. We’ve already purchased many of the things that young couples just starting out would put on their wedding registries — nice towels, good dishware, kitchen appliances, etc. And we don’t have room for more! But almost everyone we’ve invited to our wedding has asked if we’re setting up a registry and has seemed disappointed when we explain we’re thinking of not doing so.
A couple of friends suggested a honeymoon fund or a red packet tradition (my fiancee is Chinese-Canadian; I’m not). Money would definitely be a lot more useful than more household goods.
What would your reaction as a wedding guest be to either a blanket statement (“no registry, but cash gifts appreciated!”) or a honeyfund-type listing (“for $XX you could sponsor YY activity”)?
Anonymous
I’m Southern and I hate cash-grabs. Even if I’d probably send you a gift card to a restaurant I know you love (or W-S or Target), I’d rather you not be so blatant about it. It’s not a transaction.
Anon
HAAAATE cash grabs.
Anon
I hate it too.
Anonymous
Tacky , but a lot of people do it
Veronica Mars
I think everyone is allowed to be 10% tacky when it comes to your own wedding. If this is where you want to “cash in” so to speak, go for it. So I give each couple one eye roll before I start thinking that it reflects poorly on them (i.e. weird, inconvenient time on a Thursday, cash bar, “cash only” on invites, no plus 1, etc). Personally, I’d just make a small, traditional registry at someplace like Amazon or for a luxe retailer. Everyone gets the memo and the die-hards that want to buy you a gift, can buy you one (and for Amazon, you can return for credit).
Anon
i would do a honeyfund type registry and then i’d still register for some home stuff bc at least you can then return it and have credit to a store you like where you can buy other things that you may need, rather than end up with a lot of random stuff that you have no space for AND can’t return
BabyAssociate
Personally, I think “no registry” implies that cash gifts are appreciated. I have absolutely zero qualms about giving cash for a wedding and greatly prefer it to a registry. I think registries are outdated for the reasons you mentioned. However, something about a honeyfund really rubs me the wrong way. I know it really shouldn’t matter, money is money, but I just can shake that they seem tacky.
Worry About Yourself
I think it feels tacky because it looks like the couple is planning this fabulous, extravagant vacation, but hoping to do it on your dime. Especially if you know they can actually afford to go on their own dime, and you’d love to go on a trip like that but you can’t afford to do so. But I would choose to read it as “we’d rather people gift experiences than stuff” and it just to happens those experiences will be used soon after the wedding.
anon
I just can’t see it as tacky. I wonder if it’s a generational thing. I and a lot of my friends value experiences and travel over things. I’d have no interest in or use for a set of fancy crystal stemware. I already have sheets and a toaster. How is it meaningfully different from asking people to furnish your home with extravagant things that are more expensive than what you’d buy for yourself? Or to ask people to upgrade your perfectly good stuff if you’re getting married after you are financially stable and cohabitating? I think the only reason that’s not perceived as “tacky” is because it’s traditional to give household stuff.
Anon
Wow you’re definitely projecting. If someone approached my wedding with an attitude of “they can already afford this fancy stuff, why should I get them anything, I can’t do all that fancy stuff, waah waah, me me” I wouldn’t want them to even come. Please don’t go to a person’s wedding with a bitter chip on your shoulder, complaining as they feed you food and alcohol and a fun night.
Anonymous
OMG you are attending as their guest. Paying for food and alcohol is what I do when I patronize restaurants.
Furnishing your first place in the standard you are used to is what people used to actually need to start out. If you are registering stuff way above that for your first place, you get the eye rolls you deserve. $500 for a toaster? If that’s typical for the crowd you roll with, fine. But it wouldn’t fly with my family.
Anon
This is a really ugly attitude on your part (not wanting people to come to your wedding who won’t give you lots of cash or a fancy gift) and I sincerely hope you grow up and get over yourself.
Anonymous
last wedding I went to had a registry that was just honeymoon fund, kitchen renovation fund, and garden landscaping fund. I liked it.
Anon Probate Lawyer
I like the “fund” idea. I definitely wouldn’t do sponsored events or say that you want cash. That is tacky.
Anonymous
Why is asking for cash tacky? What if you don’t need stuff but you do need help saving up for a medical procedure or something. Maybe you don’t want to advertise your health issues to everyone you invite. Maybe you want to save up because you’re hoping for a child in the future. Why is it ok to say buy me these extravagant dishes I will use at most once a year, but tacky to say give me part of the value of those dishes instead. Especially when half the advice I see also says register at places you can return so you get the money anyway.
Anon
Why should people fund your upcoming medical procedure or childbearing as a price of admission to your wedding? The idea of wedding gifts is to furnish the home of the new couple. So even if you can’t afford a China set or even a place setting, you could give the couple a single plate and hope they use it with fond memories of you and their wedding day.
Using a wedding as a gofundme seems pretty far afield to me.
Anonymous
I would prefer no plate and no money to a random plate I don’t need and don’t have space to store. The tradition of wedding gifts to furnish the home is outdated because few to no couples actually need home furnishings when they get married. If you give me a plate, I will donate the plate.
And my point was that why is a “fund” for landscaping or renovations or whatever ok, but its tacky if you don’t name it and instead ask for cash. It works out the same either way doesn’t it?
Vicky Austin
I like that – we told a handful of people (who we knew would appreciate the joke) that their cash gifts were going into our mattress fund.
Anonymous
My reaction would be that you are greedy with no manners. If you want cash, don’t register, and if people ask where you’ve registered say you haven’t. They aren’t stupid they can figure out how to give you a check without instructions.
Senior Attorney
This. I promise you there is not one single person alive on the planet who doesn’t know that people want you to give them cash when they get married.
Anonymous
if everyone knows, then whats so bad about saying it.
Senior Attorney
Because it’s crass and unnecessary.
Anon
lol that’s definitely not true
Angela
+1. Don’t say anything about gifts on the invitation, period. If you receive one off requests for a registry, just say you don’t have one. You may end up with a lot of “stuff” you don’t want, rather than stuff you’ve picked out, but that’s the risk you take.
Ellen
I am now of the mind set that I do NOT want any gifts from people when I get married. At my age, I have most everything I need, and to be frank, I would not want people to part with cash just to celabrate my wedding with me and my husband, if I ever find one, that is. I would certainly not have been saying this 10-15 years ago when I was younger, but now, it is different. Just give me a decent guy and I will marry him, and I do not want any more stuff.
Anonymous
A registry reduces the number of people who dislike giving cash who will buy you ‘stuff’ anyway. Maybe try a small registry with upgrades to what you currently have (nicer mixer, better pots/knives etc). I’ve also seen people register at department stores and include furniture for group gifting or for people to buy a gift card towards the specific item. You can donate the old stuff to a women’s shelter or homelessness program as many have transitional programs that need items for new apartments.
No registry literally means ‘cash gifts please’ so you don’t need to emphasize that. You will likely get less overall total value though. For example, I was able to double the value of what I got my BFF for her wedding by waiting for a sale, using store points I had in addition to the cash I had set aside to buy her the $600 pot set she registered for.
Anon
This. The etiquette standard is if there is no registry, cash is preferred. You may get a few stray physical gifts, but it will be 90% cash. I also think honeyfunds are tacky because everyone knows you aren’t getting them the actual dinner or massage or wine for 2 – it goes into a big pile of cash.
anon
This. Some people will absolutely want to get you a Thing. If you don’t register, they might get you a Thing that’s not your taste at all. However, even with a registry, you might still get an ugly off-registry vase or, I kid you not, two champagne flutes beglittered with fake icing, pearls and bows, and matching cake knife, also there were doves somewhere. This is outside your control.
That said, I am from Europe and whether you asked for cash or implied it by having a small registry, I would give you cash and not think twice about it. I thought Chinese culture was also very practical when it comes to wedding gifts?
Worry About Yourself
I would set up a “registry” page on your wedding website where you explain “Our small condo is already set up, so we ask that those who wish to give, give cash. We have set up a newlywed fund for your convenience. In addition, here’s a small list of businesses we like to frequent, for those who would prefer to gift a nice dinner or movie night. For those who simply must give a traditional present, we have set up a small registry which you can find here.”
The key is communicating a preference, but acknowledging that people have different gifting styles, and giving people options and convenience. Honestly, preferring cash is so common these days for the exact same reasons you’ve given, very few people will judge you for preferring cash. It’s the couples who specify an amount that are tacky.
Anonymous
Oh my god no don’t do this is horrifically bad!!! Preferring cash is find buy you don’t spell that out in writing.
AnonInfinity
Yeah, this has me clutching my pearls hard. If you want cash, just don’t register, or do a very small registry. Do NOT say you want cash. We all know everyone wants cash for their weddings.
anon
It really depends on your family. This would be totally normal for my family and was actually included in several invites I’ve been to, no pearl clutching. However, the consensus on here always seems to be that it is shameful to straightforwardly say what you mean on a wedding invite.
Anonymous
Yes it is shameful to state on a wedding invite that someone should bring cash to your wedding. You are inviting them to your wedding, not listing associated fees. If they chose to bring a gift – cash or otherwise, then you thank them graciously.
anon
nope, you do not have a monopoly on the moral high ground. Different strokes for different folks.
By setting up a registry, you are every bit as much expecting a gift and specifying exactly what you would like from your guests. Similarly, sending an invite for a shower is as explicitly asking for a bunch of gifts as you can get without using the words. Just because you don’t spell it out or you provide the registry through a channel separate from the invite, doesn’t change the fact that you think gifts are an established part of this social ritual.
The fact that the invite for a shower is not directly coming from the bride or parents-to-be does not change the reality that those people consent to be the focus of a party for the sole sake of gifts.
This is not a generational thing either, it is a regional thing too. Your way is not the only way.
Senior Attorney
Yeah my pearls are screaming for mercy at this.
T
This is tragic, please don’t do this.
Anon
This is tragic, please don’t do this.
Anonymous
I know people differ, and I’m clearly showing my age here, but I hate honeyfunds.
Anonymous
Agree. I’m getting you a gift to use for the duration of your hopefully long marriage. I’m not paying for your swanky vacation.
Anon
I got married a year ago, and I think fondly of the people who bought us presents every time I use them. There’s something really special about pulling out a decanter or a nice set of china and thinking of a person who is important to us and took time out of their day to buy us something nice to celebrate our wedding.
Anon
How nice for you but how is that relevant to people who don’t want a decanter or a nice set of china? I’m tired of older generations acting like STUFF is the only way to go for wedding gifts.
Anonymous
Especially when odds are they’re all gonna try and bequeath me the china and decanters and all the stuff they got when they married.
Plus I already own a decanter.
Anonymous
Then get nicer pots or knives? Do you eat take-out 24/7?
Anonymous
I own pots and knives too, they are exactly what I need and I don’t want to get rid of them just to allow someone to gift me fractionally better ones.
Anonymous
OMFG – don’t be pedantic – pots and knives are an example. Is every single item you own premium quality where it is not possible to have an upgrade in any manner? You own the best china, pots, knives, sheets, mountain bikes, household appliances, wine glasses – everything? In that case, you are obviously quite wealthy, can afford to pay for your own swanky honeymoon and should ask your guests to donate to charity.
Wedding guests do not owe you cash for your honeymoon or anything else. It’s rude AF to act like they do by being offended at the mere suggestion that they might gift you anything other than cash.
anon
Why describe a honeymoon as a “swanky vacation”? That just seems so judgmental– but why? Are honeymoons not actually generally accepted traditions in western culture? Why is a crystal vase more meaningful and enduring than the memories, photos, experiences you’ll share and have forever from your honeymoon? I just don’t understand the logic.
Pay it forward
I think you are pretty fortunate and you have the option of noting that and having a donation link to habitat or a shelter or food pantry so that people may donate to help out those who need it (or you could register for household basics to then donate).
Patricia Gardiner
Yes!! This is what we did, and I love it when people do this. We each picked a charity that was important to us (both cancer-related as we have each lost a parent to cancer) and asked for donations to those instead of gifts, if people were so inclined. Many guests did which was awesome; about 1/3 gave cash or checks instead. And there were still a few random household items.
anon
This is beautiful. What a great idea!
Angela
Cool idea. I haven’t heard of this, but it’s absolutely awesome.
Ribena
I went to a wedding last year which had a website which looked like a typical gift registry but was things for the honeymoon – so I bought the couple a cooking class while abroad, which they wrote a card specifically thanking me for afterwards. I think it’s a great idea – they already have their apartment the way they like it and they love travelling together.
Anon
I think this is lovely if it actually goes to the item you bought them. Those gifts are usually just thrown into a pot of money and the couple can choose to spend it on your gift or not. If the gift allowed you to specifically buy the couple something from the honeymoon hotel for example, I think that’s more than welcome.
Anonymous
The problem with a lot of these registries – you’re not actually getting them a cooking class. The s i t e takes a % cut, then the couple gets cash. They can choose to take the class or not. Personally, I don’t like the dishonesty – don’t tell me I’m buying you a cooking class when really I’m giving you cash; if I wanted to give you cash then I would just do that.
Anon
+1 it’s been awhile, but I was pretty turned off from the honeymoon fund requests when I heard firsthand how a couple of folks we knew who did this didn’t actually use it for the intended thing. Probably obvious in hindsight, but it makes the whole thing seem so silly. I’d rather they just get the full cash then, why are we paying an intermediary to keep up an illusion?
anon
But many people return stuff from registries for store credit or cash. Depending on the store (Amazon, Target, Walmart), store credit can be close to cash equivalent. One of the traditional wedding gift stores in my area doesn’t even ship the gift. It just notes the gifts for thank-you card purposes and tells the couple they have $2000 to spend on whatever they want from the store.
Anonymous
What do returns have to do with it? If I buy you a gift then it’s yours to do with as you please. I don’t get to choose what you do with it – maybe you’ll cherish that serving platter forever or maybe it’ll sit in the basement collecting dust until you give it to Goodwill. But I do get to choose how to spend my money, i.e., buy you a thing vs. pay for an experience vs. give you cash. It’s so odd to override a gift giver’s choice like this.
Anonymous
if you buy me a gift, with the knowledge I don’t want it, you’re putting your need to gift over my need to not have stuff. I would rather have nothing than have to spend my free time dealing with the random thing you decided I needed. Especially when you don’t actually care what happens to it, only that I receive it. Its taken me years to convince my family I don’t want things and to give money to me or a charity or do nothing. I don’t want to have the same fight with more distant relatives and family friends at my wedding.
anon
the same thing happens with traditional registries, though.
Anon
Some people HAVE to buy you something tangible or an experience, so register for a select few items of varying price range that you can upgrade, including consumables like really fancy candles or gourmet oils and vinegars (so you don’t have to worry about storing them long term), and everyone else will give you cash. I’ve mostly seen a couple register at a big store like Macy’s, register for 15 gifts from 10 to 200 dollars, and call it a day. There aren’t enough gifts for people to buy you so they default to cash when the gifts run out. Don’t make this harder than it needs to be.
I’ve also enjoyed when people allow you to buy them actual experiences – a link to a cooking class the couple can buy you, a link to a massage place to give a couples massage, a link to your favorite restaurants gift card.
cbackson
I think the best way to explain that you prefer cash is by word of mouth, as you’ve been doing. As you can see from the responses, how people feel about cash gifts varies heavily by region, age, and culture. You won’t offend anyone by passing the word informally.
DCR
If you think outside of the box of traditional home items, are there other physical gifts you would enjoy? When two of my friends got married last year, they registered for a lot of off-beat items for the hobbies they do together. Lots of camping stuff because they like to hike and camp together and a bunch of board games, which they enjoy and is how they met. Lots of people who don’t like giving cash would be ok with those type of items, especially if you mix it in with a few traditional home items.
Anonymous
This. I like shopping and buying things. You’re going to get more $$ if I’m buying a mountain bike or carry on suitcase vs. writing a cheque. I’m more like to round the 150 up in the moment and spend 189 or whatever on the suitcase.
Anonymous
I would rather have less money than a thing I only kinda want but came up with in desperation to give people a thing to buy.
Anonymous
So don’t do a registry? I’m just pointing out benefits of having one.
Anonymous
Why do some people feel like an actual gift is necessary but cash is tacky. Like, I have a small apartment, I literally do not have room for more stuff. If you buy me a mixer or plates or candles or whatever counts as a “proper” wedding gift to you, what you have actually given me is the burden of finding a way to sell, return, or donate the object. If you give me the same amount of money (which is actually less work for the gifter too), I can save it for when I have a larger space and can actually appreciate more objects.
Aso, is it so terrible that I want to say, no the towels and sheets I have are fine, I don’t want to throw them away because you have an outdated idea of what a wedding gift has to be.
Most people who ask for cash arent really saying they feel entitled to money, theyre saying, I know you want to give something, if you must give me something, give me the value of the thing instead of the thing itself.
Anonymous
For the same reason that Christmas or birthdays are not just a cash exchange.
Anonymous
and i’ve gotten my family to stop buying me stuff for birthdays and christmas. my parents still insist on giving me a visa gift card, but I’m not asking for it.
christmas for me is about spending time with my family. the stuff is irrelevant. the only reason I give gifts at all is because my toddler nephew loves tearing them open.
Anonymous
The people who ask for cash need to stop asking then. Not having a registry is asking for cash. It’s the putting in words on the invite that’s tacky. It implies a cash gift is required to attend.
Anonymous
why is asking for cash tackier than asking for stuff.
Anonymous
You also don’t put registry info on the invite. Don’t ask for cash on the invite. Make a registry if you want stuff. Don’t make a registry if you don’t want stuff. It’s not that hard. Focus on the ceremony not the stuff or cash you will get.
JFC – is it that hard to invite people to your weddings without thinking about how much stuff or cash they will give you? Be glad they show up and celebrate with you.
anon
It’s just so weird that the act of wanting is fine, but the being open about it gets judged. And here we talk all day about how direct communication is better and passive aggressive hints harm you professionally and in personal interactions. But when it’s the wedding-industrial complex, rationality goes out the window?
anon
Maybe it’s because I’m not American but I truly had no idea that no registry = give me money. Oops!
Anon
+1
Hazel
Sounds like a consensus! Thanks to you all for the gut-check.
Anon
Do you tip at a cosmetic dermatologist? The services in question include IPL and injections, and are administered by RNs.
Anon Probate Lawyer
No and I find that a totally odd concept, but it may be because I live in the south, and I know people tip for a more wide variety of services in the north. Still, I wouldn’t think that you would tip for medical-type procedures.
blackberry
I get facials from an esthetician who works out of a cosmetic surgeon’s office. I never tip, even though there’s a tip line on the receipt. I view these as medical procedures – they’re not fun relaxing facials with lots of massage, they’re no-frills clinical facials – so it seems odd that tipping is even an option. It’d be like tipping my dentist.
Lavinia
Honestly, I’d just call the office and ask. I’m sure they’re used to getting that question.
Anonymous
I think it’s a bad idea to develop a culture of tipping medical staff. It’s like rewarding them for good service, but they can’t have levels of service really — it all HAS to be competent/sterile/etc. And they shouldn’t be focused on making you feel special vs the procedure at hand.
Anon
Favorite red carpet looks?
Mine: Geena Davis, Rebel Wilson, Mindy Kaling, Natalie Portman, Julia Louis Dreyfuss’s necklace
I didn’t get: Saoirse Ronan, Billie Eilish, Billy Porter (I’m all for him wearing a gown, but not that one)
Anon
Loved: Geena Davis, Natalie Portman, Scarlett Johansson, Janelle Monae, Sandra Oh
Disliked: Billie Eilish, Penelope Cruz, Charlize Theron, Chrissy Teigan
Anon
Additional thoughts as I look through the best/worst lists (what a slow work day)
Loved: Regina King
Disliked: Laura Dern, Renee Zelwegger, Olivia Coleman, Cynthia Erivo
Anon
I liked Laura and Olivia. I realize that puts me in the minority. I thought Laura’s dress flattered her, and Olivia’s dress was intentionally regal.
Anon
Oh, and I didn’t like Sandra Oh’s dress at all i thought the sleeves were ridiculous and the color no good for her.
Anon
I didn’t get Kristin Wiig’s dress. Was that some sort of vag costume?
Anonymous
I agree, her dress was … confusing. However, her routine with Maya Rudolph was a highlight of the night.
Anon
Looking for advice – or maybe just confirmation of my gut here. I am leaving my firm as of this Friday. Unexpectedly, I got an email from the managing partner today asking for a “very frank” exit interview “off the record.” I am leaving almost entirely due to an extremely toxic work environment which stems from my direct boss (and the fact that the firm does nothing about it). To my knowledge it is not typical here to do exit interviews, and I think this exit interview was requested because they know there are problems, but I’m so torn. Part of me wants to say – “yes obviously this is why I’m leaving, and everyone knows it.” The other part of me wants to just nod and smile and make my exit as drama-free as possible, which, thus far, it has been. What do you ladies think? Is there any benefit to me in being “frank” in this meeting?
Anon
I would take the chance to be frank, but within limits. Instead of “I’m leaving because Joe was certifiably insane and I could no longer take his absurd yelling and demands at all hours of the day,” try “I’ve found that I’m not able to do my best work in an environment where frequent anger is tolerated.” Instead of “I’m leaving because HR was incredibly disorganized and we never ever got our paychecks on time,” I’d do “I need to work somewhere where paychecks are distributed on schedule.” Less is more.
Anon
Thank you – I think this is the way to go. Speaking of, do you work at my firm? Because your first example is spot on!
Anonymous
Nothing is off the record and no benefit to being frank. You talk about what you are excited about in the new job, at the most note that you ‘didn’t see similar opportunitites to engage in xyz work here’. I wouldn’t go any stronger than that assuming they know there are issues.
Angela
+1
Anonymous
I’d play it in the moment. Does the person who scheduled the interview with you actually, genuinely, want to know, and is that person in a place to do something about it?
Anon
I would be fairly honest. Include some positives like “I’ve learned a lot here and appreciate the opportunity” and then be honest about your direct boss. But please make sure you focus on the behavior and specific actions, not the whole person. “Joe is a psychopath” is not ok. “The department has an environment of browbeating and screaming, which doesn’t work for me” is.
Anon
Do you think your conversation will actually stay confidential? And do you think the person interviewing will actually implement change? Does either of this matter to you?
Anon
I think that the managing partner is discreet and would not share what I said; however, it probably wouldn’t be hard to figure out. I don’t really have hope for any change – as this behavior has been going on for years, and it isn’t a secret, so I can’t see how anything would change.
I think the thing that matters most to me is that I’ve fallen on my sword a bit to be like “oh, the crazy schedule is too much and too stressful for me, and I want less of a litigation role” – when that isn’t really true. I’ve said this because my boss is not a stable person and I really would not put it past him to trash me/do something insane if I blamed him for leaving, so I thought it was a good way to leave without getting on his bad side. The truth is, I’m good at what I do and I enjoy litigation (most of the time) but my boss has made it so horrible that it has become intolerable and I think I will have a personal sense of satisfaction in saying, “it’s not me, it’s him.” But is that sense of satisfaction worth the risk of being frank in an exit interview? I’m not really sure about that, and that’s where I’m struggling.
Anon
Then honestly if it won’t change the situation and may only hurt you, it’s in your best interest to not say anything that could trail back to boss negatively. Protect yourself, I see no upside to absolute honesty.
Anonymous
+100000000.
Anonymous
Talk positively about what you are looking forward to at your new firm. The fact that you are not saying these things about your current work will speak volumes.
Angela
“I think that the managing partner is discreet and would not share what I said”
Gently, consider that you are very wrong about this. This partner’s time is precious; he’s not asking you to discuss this because he has nothing better to do. He’s asking you because he wants to take the information he gets from you and use it to take whatever action he deems appropriate in light of it. Even if he would do so on a no-names basis, it’s naive to think that the information wouldn’t be shared beyond the partner himself.
To answer another part of your post, compare the value of your present-day “satisfaction” against the potential harm to your future career/self. Only you can weigh the value of those two, but recognize that your current self is entrusted to protect the interests of self-in-three-years. Don’t let her down.
pugsnbourbon
+1. On my “exit questionnaire” I was also encouraged to be frank. I wrote a detailed response, deleted it all, and ended up saying something to the effect of “everyone knows what the problem is here; nothing I can say will change anything.” Things are exactly as they were when I left.
Senior Attorney
I think this is a great response.
cbackson
Are you going to a client or another firm/government? You can be more honest if they need to stay on your good side.
Anon
Also consider whether you need to stay on they good side. I was pretty honest, when still mentioning some positives, in my exit interview. But I was leaving for government, knew I would never go back to the firm, and knew that nothing I said would change the opinion of the people I used as references if I needed to use them as references again in the future.
Anon
I’m going to another firm, but we are in a relatively smallish city, and so it is a very small legal market and I don’t want to be on anyone’s bad side. I think that based on my work, this firm would take me back if I was in a bind (which I hope is never!) I think maybe a middle of the road response like the first Anon described above is the way to go.
cbackson
I would only be frank if you’re going to government or a client, not another firm (and especially not if you might want to come back).
NYCer
+1. If there is any possibility of wanting to come back, I would be very, very careful about what you say.
Angela
If you ever want to go back, I would accept partner’s request to discuss your departure but then focus ENTIRELY on the positives of the new opportunity, NOTHING negative about the current firm. You could even make it about the positives of change in general and gaining broader experience. To be honest, treat the “exit” conversation with the partner as a job interview for returning to the firm. That might help you frame things.
Anonymous
I sort of think that if they cared to address their problems … you wouldn’t be leaving. If they are going to do something about it now then they can, and there’s no reason for you to be linked to the reason that your boss is reprimanded/fired/whatever.
Can you avoid even going to the meeting? Maybe you can decline with something like, my focus is on transitioning my work and looking forward to my new opportunity and am not comfortable with that. I value what I’ve learned here, etc. I think generic professional remarks will probably go over better in the long run than giving them the answers they’re looking for, and no one could really fault you for not getting involved at this point.
Anon
Voice of dissent here: be honest because documenting these problems is the only way to fix them. There are times when “everyone knows” what the problem is but no one fixes it, and that’s often because there isn’t enough of a paper trail to sack the wrongdoer.
When you talk about the hours and such, you’re actually just perpetuating the idea that the people who can’t work under the (expletive) are doing so because they can’t hack it or deal with high expectations, not that the person is inherently unreasonable.
Anger is unprofessional. Discrimination (which might be going on) is unprofessional. Using your colleagues or employees as a punching bag is unprofessional. Focus on that – you’re a lawyer, a damn good one, and you enjoy practicing law. You like work because it’s a professional environment wherein people act a certain way towards each other, and the expectation is that everyone leaves their s–t at the door. Then “X (describe) is not appropriate in a professional environment, and I am leaving for a firm wherein it is not tolerated.”
Anonymous
But an “off the record” conversation won’t go anywhere to solving the documentation issue, unless the person is willing to speak on the record (which seems unwise in this case).
Angela
But why should OP care if the firm fixes its issues, and why is it her job to make sure they do?
BeenThatGuy
She should care because she’s human and is leaving behind other humans. Those still at the firm, dealing with the toxic situation day in and day out, for whatever reason, deserve for her to care. She’s getting out; great. But if providing honest feedback in an exit interview helps those left behind, there is harm in not saying anything (assuming she is professional about it).
Anon
Because there were women who were abused, castigated, and arrested for our right to vote, and it’s appalling when some upper-middle class chick with a graduate degree and a job lined up can’t find it within herself to remedy a problem.
Anonymous
I went with not being frank, because I am in a specialized market and didn’t want the feedback to come back to me.
Anon
Just a word of warning here– I got pulled into an involuntary exit interview immediately after I gave notice at my government agency. I’d only been there about 6 months and was right out of law school. I was the 7th person to leave in a month, so apparently my immediate manager (who was insane) had just been in a meeting with her supervisor about employee turnover. She volunteered me to speak with him (and her) because she thought I was nice enough not to say anything bad about her. I tried to be as nice and PC as possible in telling them why I was leaving. Instead of saying it was because of the personalities of people there, I said something like, I didn’t feel challenged and wanted a bigger workload (which was true), and apparently, that was the absolutely wrong thing to say. There had been debates about budgeting in our department apparently and what I was saying apparently made it harder for them to hire more people to replace the 7 that had left.. So, in sum, even if you are trying to be polite in your interview, if there are toxic people involved, whatever you say, no matter how watered down, is going to be negative in some way.
Angela
No benefit to you being frank in the meeting whatsoever. You’re leaving, it’s not going to improve anything for you. All it will do is burn a bridge and potentially come back to bite you WHEN your feedback is used against the person you have complaints about.
But I’m extremely paranoid and do not participate in any kind of employer feedback or, if I am forced to, give 100% positive. There is no upside to yourself in being “frank” in this situation. You owe the firm nothing.
Anon
Is it normal/acceptable to lateral twice in Big Law? I lateralled from one Big Law firm to another as a second year because I wanted to be part of a particular practice group. Now I love the work in the practice group that is a right fit but I am not always getting the work and I’m making it up by doing work for other practice groups. It’s possible things could pick up but after two years here, it is pretty stop and go and I’m afraid I am not going to make bonus unless I pick up a bunch of doc reviews to make up hours (last year I had a trial that saved me). Is it too much movement to go somewhere else as a fifth or sixth year? If I’m planning to have a child next year, would it be worth moving now or staying with a maternity leave here and later leaving?
Anonymous
I did it. Be prepared for a lot of questions about why you’re moving “so much.” Your explanation for each move is good. Ymmv, but I would not wait unless you have a strong portable book. Business development becomes more important the farther along you are, so it’s a lot harder to move as an ~8th year associate with no book than a 5-6th year.
Anon
You were at one firm for one year and then at your current firm for 2 years? I don’t think it’s the kiss of death to lateral again, but I would assume that you were asked to leave both of the prior firms and that your work isn’t good because the only people I personally know who lateraled twice were bad associates. If you are looking for a firm to stay at to make partner, it may make sense. If you just want to wait another year or two before leaving for in-house or something else, I wouldn’t do it.
Anon
Lateraling twice is not a big deal – the amount of time between each move is what’s important. I wouldn’t think twice if someone moved after a year (assume bad fit/practice not doing well or something similar) and moved again five or six years later. Two moves in three years is a lot.
Anonymous
IMO, if you’re planning on having a child, I’d stay at the place with more decent hours and just kiss the bonus goodbye.
Anon
This may be a silly question, but: I’m going to be in NYC in March. I want to see the Bob Dylan inspired Broadway show. I am a huge Bob fan. There is only one time/show that works with my schedule.
I should just buy a regular ticket off the main website right? Or are there discount sites/methods I should use? I know there are the day of discount places to buy, but since I have the specific show I want to see and can only go the one date, that’s risky, yes? Thanks!
North country
I just saw it on Friday! I just got through the box office (Broadway.com). There are still tickets available for most (every?) show and since I wanted a specific time I just paid face value. I think it’s too new to be on TKTS or today tix. enjoy!
Anonymous
Did you like it? Was it serious or was there some comedy/was it overall uplifting?
North country
Caveat by saying I had great seats which makes every show better, and I think this one in particular (I don’t want to give spoilers so won’t go into more detail). But I LOVED the music, liked (not loved) the plot. It’s a serious show with bits of comedy.
Anon
I’m seeing this show on Wednesday!! I bought tickets off of the TodayTix app.
Anon
This sounds like a bucket list thing to you, so I would spend the full fare on the ticket now and get a great seat. Other options are risky in terms of availability and seat choice.
Make sure you’re buying it from the theater and not a reseller.
Anonymous
It couldn’t hurt to go to the website for the specific show/theater and sign up for their email list — they’ll send any promotion information and sometimes there are discount codes for certain time periods during a show’s run. There is no guarantee of discounts though, and you should definitely buy in advance when seats area available. Last minute discounts, ticket lottery, etc, are great but they don’t help when you have a specific show you want to see as you do risk missing it.
Anonymous
I just did this yesterday. Buy the ticket today before it starts getting good press. There’s still plenty of availability in March even for the cheap seats. Availability will drop dramatically and soon.
OP
Thanks for the tips all! Can’t wait!
NYNY
Broadway Box dot com has a discount code good for performances March 26 – May 17, if your March date is in there.
Chicago In House Lawyer
Greetings all! Any Charleston natives? I am planning a girls trip for 7-9 women in their 50s in late August. Can anyone help me plan 3 perfect days in and around Charleston? Where to eat, where to cocktail, what sights to see?