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Frugal Friday’s Workwear Report: Everyday Pull-On Skirt

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A woman wearing a printed midi skirt and open block sandals

Our daily workwear reports suggest one piece of work-appropriate attire in a range of prices.

This black-and-white printed skirt from T Tahari is a great basic at an even better price.

I’m always looking for spring-y items that can pair nicely with a wardrobe that leans heavily in the black/gray direction. This lightweight skirt has a spring feel to it but would still look great with my favorite lightweight black sweater or black blazer. For non-New Yorkers, it would also look beautiful with a bright blouse for an even spring-ier feel.

The skirt is $19.97 at Nordstrom Rack and comes in sizes XS-XL. It also comes in five other colorways. 

Sales of note for 4/21/25:

  • Nordstrom – 5,263 new markdowns for women!
  • Ann Taylor – 25% off tops & sweaters + extra 40% off sale
  • Banana Republic Factory – 50%-70% off everything + extra 20% off
  • Boden – 10% off new womenswear styles
  • Brooks Brothers – Friends & Family Sale: 30% off sitewide
  • The Fold – 25% off selected lines
  • Eloquii – $29+ select styles + extra 40% off all sale
  • Everlane – Spring sale, up to 70% off
  • J.Crew – Spring Event: 40% off sitewide + extra 50% off sale styles + 50% swim & coverups
  • J.Crew Factory – 40%-70% off everything + extra 70% off clearance
  • Kule – Lots of sweaters up to 50% off
  • M.M.LaFleur – Earth Day Sale: Take 25% off eco-conscious fabrics. Try code CORPORETTE15 for 15% off
  • Madewell – Extra 30% off sale + 50% off sale jeans
  • Rothy's – Final Few: Up to 50% off last chance styles; new favorites added
  • Spanx – Lots of workwear on sale, some up to 70% off
  • Talbots – 30% off entire purchase w/Talbots card

209 Comments

  1. I love a black and white print but it is styled so poorly in this picture. It looks so sad and so strongly meh.

    1. I don’t mind it. I’d probably pair it with white sneakers and a black shortsleeved sweater and maybe add a black blazer/switch to “real shoes” for when actually in the office, but I don’t find the styling too bad. I actually really like this.

      1. +1. I’d style it similarly. I’m surprised it’s getting such a strong reaction.

    2. Really? I’d pair this with a black mock neck short sleeve top and some kind of black shoe and wear it to work in a heartbeat. Easy.

    3. I think this outfit is a style choice. I personally hate it, but would also never wear a midi length dress or skirt for any reason. It isn’t made for me.

    4. You just know there’s pins and clamps behind the model to make everything lay even this good.

    6. I agree it’s styled badly and I don’t personally care for that pattern. I have some skirts in that style though and style with boots and a turtleneck in the winter, and sneakers and a casual button down in the summer and it’s one of my favorite casual day looks.

    7. I would look straight-up homely in this skirt. Great for tall willowy types. Alas, I am tall but muscular. I would look like my ancestors in peasant dresses.

      2. I strongly identify with that meme of trying to exercise to lose weight when you come from peasant stock and your body going ‘ah, are we running from the English again lass? Never ye worry, we’ll keep ye plump as a partridge!’ Sigh.

        1. Right? And even though I’m English, it must be from “hips be wide enough to birth a big-headed baby while out in the fields” farming stock with genes from a time before c-sections. Who makes pants for us? We exist!

          1. I started this convo, so don’t hate me for saying this, but some of the ranching brands like Ariat work quite well for us. If you can get one of the plain pairs without bedazzled pockets, you wouldn’t know the difference.

        3. Me too! My dad often refers to my mother’s strength and toughness as “peasant blood.”

          1. Srsly. My husband legit thinks leftovers are “bad” after 24-48 hours and I am very FAFO with timing on things like that (or maybe it is relatively FAFO compared to Captain Germ). My people did not have refrigeration and just preserved meats with a ton of salt; I am the descendant of the survivors of the fittest of them.

    8. I like the other colour options they have on the website – the large scale tan and black floral is nice.

      2. I like the Jungle Green, and spite ordered it because the posters above are so hateful.

    9. I agree it’s meh. When I first looked at it, I thought that that’s a print for throw pillows or curtains. I think it’s the combination of the print and the fullness around the waist that doesn’t appeal to me. I like it a little better in a solid color, although generally, I love prints.

  2. Spring 2025. Since we don’t have fashion mags any more, what are we wearing to office jobs?
    Yes: pointy toe flats, third pieces, elastic back pants that aren’t athleisure
    Not sure re dresses
    Not sure what denim is current but I hate rigid denim and really feel like crop flares do not work on short curvy me (a crop or a non-crop boot cut does work)

    Probably not: scarves of any sort, wedges

    I need a good warm weather sandal I can walk for miles in. Does this exist in 2025 or should I just get a fresh pair of fashion sneakers?

    1. I’m not all that fashionable, but I wear flat Mary Janes as my “warm weather sandal” and I walk a lot in them.

    2. The sneaker sole leather sandal trend looked pretty comfortable, but I missed it and don’t want to buy previous years’ sandals now.

      I tried looking up what’s in style this year and it appears to be Dansko clog sandals? Not sure I have it in me!

      1. Same. Look at the ones that are labeled as hiking sandals. I have some of the Terra and I truly could (and have) walked miles in them.

      1. I can’t walk in them though. The heels drag and I feel like I’m shuffling versus walking. The sole wears out too fast if I use for walking. And I wear mine with socks, so it’s not always the look I’m going for. Great for standing / museum walking though. Let’s my feet spread a bit and breathe.

        1. For me they are more comfortable than sneakers, but I wear the Gizeh not the 2 strap slides.

    5. My Ecco sandals are very comfortable.

      My office is business casual leaning towards casual. I wear a lot of wide leg trousers/jeans, sweaters or knit tops, loafers or Mary Janes or white sneakers. Rarely dresses and I don’t even own any skirts right now.

    7. Perfect timing, Im going to this weekend to refresh an add a few key pieces…just not sure what those are! I know i need some jeans (non ripped, non frayed hems), and a few blazers, but not even sure what those should look like. Fitted? Oversized?

      Business casual tech here.

    8. I find jolynneshane.com blog helpful. Some of her posts will explain why she’s wearing x sort of jeans now instead of y style, which are the types of explanations that I need. Or she will try on a ton of clothes and tell you why she’s keeping one piece and not another.
      She has had several on jeans, of course.

      1. As someone who does not find fashion intuitive at all but wants to look nice, I find her stuff very helpful!

    9. I still wear scarves! I wear small square ones tied around the next with the ends in front.

      Many of my cooler coworkers (cooler than me) wear them this way too!

        1. Same — on me, it veers from “Pretending to be French” to “1990s flight attendant”

    10. Suits are back but in a more casual and fun way – either patterns, color, or casually styled.
      Scarves are not a never – they’re actually back and great for a dressier look.
      Dresses in casual workplaces lean more weekend, like a long maxi with a denim jacket (the look has been around).
      Chanel flats or their knocks offs are big.
      Jeans are all shapes and styles, find what flatters you.
      My workplace is really anything goes and you see the whole spectrum from very casual to dressed up. I’d say I see people more dressed up in the streets than I have in years.
      I’m in San Francisco. I think geography is relevant.

      1. The only dress I wear w any frequency is the (discontinued) Mm lafleur ponte greenlay dress. I have to hunt yearly for poshmark replacements. I hate hate hate the flowy dresses people wear (on me they look dumb—other people can sometimes pull it off nicely.)

        1. Different strokes, I love them. I’m 5’10” and they’re flattering and easy dressing.

      2. Yeah I’m wearing my scarves a lot and it feels current. Just not those big infinity scarves of the aughts. Smaller ones tied around my neck, draped so they just rest, or tied around the handle of my purse.

      1. I love my birks but I don’t think I could walk miles in them. For that I choose my allbirds treebreezers.

        1. I love my allbirds. I’m not sure if they’re still fashionable — we seem to be trending toward more rectangular fashion sneakers? — but they fit my feet just right and you can pry them out of my cold dead hands.

          1. They probably aren’t fashionable, but my take is that they are so innocuous and comfortable that they hardly count as fashion, just as practical. I am not in the market for rectangular fashion sneakers and don’t love fashion enough to consider it.

          2. That is where I fall. I am willing to attempt fashion on other parts of my body, but my feet need to be comfortable and Allbirds fit that description for me.

            But also unless I am reading the signs wrong, we are actually trending toward very low profile sneakers this season (Adidas Tokyo, “ballet” sneakers, etc.)

    12. I once walked seven miles in a pair of Reefs – that style is long discontinued but it was similar to the Water Vistas.
      I can also walk for miles in my Tevas.

      1. Oh yeah, same for my rubber Havaianas–those are my warm weather go-to when my feet look decent.

        Reefs, the right pair I can walk miles in, the wrong pair hurt the same as any other flip flop.

    13. If I’m walking for miles, I just don’t wear sandals. I love my Birks and have other comfy sandals, but if I’m walking for miles, I need the padding of a running shoe.

    14. For sandals, my go to for years has been Sketchers Reggae. I’ve worn them to marathon Disney World days and been happy (though I do get blisters if I walk that much in them). They’re pretty inexpensive and I’ve found them to last a long time (2nd pair, but over the course of about 10 years, with little kids).

        1. Sandals will give you blisters when walking a lot full stop. Some manageable so yes, it can be a trade off worth making where you’ll still be happy.

          Better than having a sock tan.

          1. I’m not sure if this is a you thing or a your sandals thing, but I can walk miles and miles in sandals without getting blisters, and I’m a pretty blister prone person.

          2. 10:53, then you’re not a super blister prone person, which is great! My feet blister like crazy, especially at the beginning of any season involving different footwear of any kind. It takes a couple of wears of flip flops before I don’t have a blister between my toes and on top of my feet.

          3. You are more accepting of blisters than I am. I do not have patience for sandals that cause blisters.

            My miles-of-walking sandals are Merrell hiking ones. Lots of support and the straps do not cause me hot spots or blisters. Teva, Keen, and many of the others mentioned in this thread just are not shaped right for my foot.

          4. I am blister prone though; I have to wear flip flops all winter if I want to avoid that blister you’re talking about near the thong. I have to select sandals as carefully as shoes if I want to avoid blisters. But sandals as a category never seemed to be worse for blisters than shoes in my experience (including sneakers, since yes I can get blisters wearing sneakers).

        2. I mean I get blisters if I’m walking an extraordinary amount (Disney World). Not on a normal basis. I really hate wearing sneakers in hot weather, so I stick moleskin on the hot spots and accept it’s the price for any sandal. But it’s only an issue if I’m doing some really intense all-day walking.

    15. I have no clue what people are wearing to work, but I can help on the sandals: Last year I got a pair of Fly London Tajis and they are amazing. Rubber lug soles, so they’re great for walking and standing, wide elastic straps that never gave me a blister, and I got comments on them everywhere I went. The aesthetic is a little punk rock, but I’m good with that.

      1. I looked these up. I immediately hate them, but am also intrigued by them and can see myself owning them within the next month 😂

        They look powerful and comfortable.

        2. I always have this reaction to Fly London. So ugly yet there’s something that draws me in.

  3. I’m struggling a bit. Between being COVID-conscious for 4+ years (high risk condition), multiple miscarriages, two family health crises, a successful pregnancy that had serious complications at the end that I’m still dealing with, and my job being on the line with HHS cuts, I’m starting to wonder if life will ever offer a break. I had my baby just before the election and had such high hopes for prosperity and opportunity and optimism for her. If my husband and I both lose our jobs (his is probably medium risk), I don’t know what we’ll do.

    It just gets me that we could have had four more years of stability. Give me that and a little money and I will spend spend spend on the economy – but take that away and I’ll hoard savings like everyone else.

    1. Honestly, the answer is you just…will.

      Life may not be what you thought or planned for, but you guys will figure it out. Maybe it’s a career change or a move or a period of time where you live life differently, but you will figure it out.

      I don’t mean to make this political, but you weren’t guaranteed 4 years of stability either way. It’s a nice thought (and I voted for Harris!), but nothing is a sure thing. We’ve had $hit economies under both parties.

      1. True, but a run of the mill bad economy feels like something I can handle. A Trump tariff economy paired with his utter disregard for law and human rights is another matter.

        But yes, the answer is we will just get through it. Our daughter won’t have the life I had but hopefully it will be special in its own way.

        1. “Our daughter won’t have the life I had” is pretty overdramatic. She’s 5 months old. She has literally her entire life in front of her and Trump’s term will end before she’s in kindergarten.

          1. I believe he will take a third term (he always does what he says he will do) but am hoping he dies before then. In any case, it was meant as fact – I grew up in a single family home in a beautiful area. We can’t afford to leave our small apartment in a not-beautiful area, especially with jobs on the line. We hope to have more options after the infant daycare costs go down, but recession will be an issue.

            I’m good at finding the small things to enjoy with all I’ve been through. I just wanted some bigger things too.

          2. Seriously. I graduated college right before 9/12, had my first kid in 2008 and DH’s career evaporated, we had to sell our house during the Great Recession and took a huge hit, covid upended our lives, I mean, like this shit happens. You have a healthy kid. Enjoy this time with her.

            My oldest was born right before 8 years of Obama and it didn’t stop her world from being totally upended by Covid.

      2. OP, I feel similar to you. I have a 9mo daughter and as I’m up with her in the night (with spiraling thoughts) I want to cry, thinking of this stressful world and how it didn’t have to be this way. Though, I appreciate the reminder in the previous comment that we can’t know how things would have turned out with a different election result, as much as we assume.

        This baby is not my first, however, and so I have the benefit of more perspective. I had my first in the summer of 2015, and I had similar thoughts when Trump was elected the first time. I remember being terrified that Christmas that it could be our last one and Trump was going to March us into WWIII. Not a dissimilar feeling to now…

        But, that baby is almost 10. And we’ve made it through and dealt with uncertainty and while I’m extra MAD that we are here again, I’m choosing to believe that in the length of life — even a baby’s life — four years is a blip of time and hopefully things will sort out.

        Who knows? Maybe this will lead to a solid decade+ of Dem control, and they will have a mandate to pass greater safety nets. That feels really hard to imagine right now, but I don’t think you should despair of your daughter’s future just yet.

        1. I agree. I don’t want to downplay all of the avoidable damage being done right now, but people have been giving birth to babies in terrible times for all of human history. I can only imagine how awful it was to give birth during a war, when you didn’t even know if you or your family or country would survive. This is bad, but it’s not that bad. I still feel lucky every day to be born when and where I was, even if it’s not what we should be fighting for it to be.

          1. Yes, this still must be in the top 1% of times to be born, probably higher if we only count historical eras.

            That also means there’s a lot of historical precedent for how bad things could get.

            But even with the demise of public health, every few years it becomes a better time to be born with medical needs, for those who can access healthcare. It is a strange feeling to be so lucky to be alive thanks to medicine and infrastructure and at the same time, so dependent on it.

          2. Yes! Everyone needs to feel their feelings and do their best. But honestly, the kids will be okay. They won’t have the same world we did. We didn’t have the same world as our parents… which goes as far back as human history.

          3. Yes, this is a good point. I have multiple medical conditions and one in particular that would have killed me before 20 in the olden (pre-1980s) days. So even in the incredible upheaval that we’re living through I can say that my life (and my kid’s lives) are made so much better by healthcare advances, increased access to education (even now), and a global economy.

      3. I started reading an article about how deeply these tariffs will hurt us but then stopped – aren’t odds high that he’ll change his mind the way he has with all the other tariffs?

        Saw a good post reminding people that the only reason he can do these tariffs is because Congress gave him the rights – every Republican congressman is to blame for every minute of this.

        1. Exactly. And if you live in a district with a Republican congressperson, you should be on the phone reminding them of this!

        3. Odds are good that he will change his mind but the damage of the last few months will endure for years.

          It’s instability that’s the real problem. Trade flourishes when there is stability because companies have more certainty in long term investments like factory construction or hydroelectric development. Even if there’s a Democratic president after Trump, who’s to say it won’t be the same issues under the GOP in 2032.

    2. This is nothing to sneeze at. True, this was an ill-advised decision, but having the benefit of competent (and less competent) advice, we are on this path, at least for the next 4 years. With any luck, common sense will prevail in the mid-term elections, and the MAGA influence will be diminished and finally rinsed out in the 2028 elections. We can then revert to normalcy, I can go about getting my boyfriend to marry me, and we can all live happily ever after.

  4. This question feels silly right now. There are so many bigger problems, but it’s been meaningful to me. I have been looking forward to buying myself a Cartier watch to celebrate a big personal milestone coming up in a couple of weeks. I can afford it, and it would mean a lot to me, but I can’t help but wonder if buying it now with everything going on would be stupid. Like I should be saving every penny or donating more to help people in this crazy time. Not to mention, who knows what will happen with the price of the watch if I just wait – might go up or down, who knows. This was going to be a fun, celebratory thing that I had planned and looked forward to, but now I just don’t know.

    1. I’d wait, not because of the money per se, but because the uncertainty of the economy would affect my enjoyment of the splurge. YMMV.

    3. I’d go ahead and buy it. I also would consider looking at the pre-owned market.
      Congratulations on the personal milestone, which I’m assuming is a happy one!

    4. I’m in the same boat, albeit for a smaller purchase, closer to $3,000. I’m waiting. I can for certain afford it but if something insane happened (beyond current levels of insanity), I would regret the purchase. Maybe in a few months things will settle out, but I don’t gain anything by having it right this minute.

    5. I would still get it unless your job is likely actually at risk. You could also only be talking about 3k depending on the model. I surprised myself and for the first time ever, I preferred the entry point Cartier to the more expensive ones. That’s not likely to make a difference in your financial situation if you were considering it in the first place. I also don’t let fear guide me. Practicality yes, but not generalized fear.

    6. Luxury goods don’t decrease in retail price, ime. If your job is stable and you have a fully funded emergency fund then I’d go for it without regret. If your sitting on cash, it’s worth a little less every day.

    8. Worst comes to worst, Cartier holds its value and you can consign it. I consigned two Hermes bags when my husband lost his job and it was surprisingly fast/easy.

    9. But it. I’ve worn mine -ss tank -daily for a decade. It’s literally my favorite thing. Most of my girlfriends wear Rolexs so as far as I’m concerned it’s modest and frugal.

    12. i’d say do it, otherwise you’ll compensate for the personal milestone in other ways and you still won’t have your watch

    13. This also throws off my timetable for having kids. Right now, my boyfriend wants me to have a child even w/o a ring, which I refuse to do, and he understands that, but I won’t have a child w/o being married, and I need to convince my family that my boyfriend is not a slug. That takes time and money. So for now, we’re on hold, and so is our future b/c of Trump’s policy.

  5. Does anyone have experience buying a car from another state? I live in the Midwest and my mom lives in Florida. I’d like to buy her a car, but I’ve only ever done that in person.

    Any advice? How does payment work?

    1. I have done this!

      One option: you buy a car in the Midwest and drive it to Florida.

      You can fly to Florida and buy it for your mom there.

      If you are buying long distance: she finds a car; you phone in your credit card number for the deposit. One of you negotiates price with them. You can actually send in a check (like via USPS priority mail) for them to cash. It will take a few days to clear.

      If it’s a used car, I highly recommend a pre-purchase inspection, even if it’s certified pre-owned and comes with a warranty. You can either have her local mechanic do that, or try an outfit like AIM Certify that is a nationwide network of mobile mechanics who do pre-purchase inspections.

    2. Adding on: you can also just wire money to them. Once you’ve settled on a price, they will give you wire transfer information.

    4. New car or used car? If it’s a used car, I would have it taken to a dealer for a thorough inspection, which you’ll have to pay for and they’ll generate a report for you. We did this when we bought a car located out-of-state; we then went to the state, paid for, and picked up the car.
      If you’re buying through a dealership or a business that sells used cars, they should be able to answer your questions about doing it from another state.

    5. Is your mom doing it all up until the paying part, or are you involved in the shopping and selected as well?

    6. I bought a new car from out of state when my father needed to begin cancer treatment 80 miles from home and his car was failing. I new what model I wanted, but most of the details were flexible. I went on a list like this and asked for recommendations for specific sales people at the dealerships in my dad’s states, picked one in a rural area about 100 miles from my father’s city. I contacted the sales person directly, told him he came recommended and that while I could buy closer to my father, I would prefer to deal with him if the numbers were right. He priced out the car very competitively, I wired $$, he drove the car to my father and they signed all the paperwork at my father’s house. I intentionally chose a rural dealership thinking that the sale would mean more and the service would be better. Who knows whether any of this is possible at this odd moment in time (I was buying a Toyota).

    7. There are sales tax/transfer tax/registration fee issues when you buy a car in one state and register it in another. Some states have reciprocity (that might not be the right term) so you don’t essentially pay double taxes on one purchase, but those are usually border states. I live in one state but work in another and I bought a car near my work because dealing with the dealership/maintenance/warranty issues are more convenient that way. They worked it out so I only pay one set of taxes.

      1. My understanding is that all of the states have reciprocity. I live in DC and purchased a car in Maryland – they do the registration for DC. When I asked about this at the dealership, they said that they will do the registration for any states. They apparently sell a decent number of cars to people from other states, especially NY and Pennsylvania.

        1. Also, I sold my old car to a family member in the Midwest. I didn’t have to do anything in DC and he just registered and paid the transfer tax in his state.

      2. In my experience, you only pay sales tax if you didn’t pay it in another state. So people who buy cars in New Hampshire to register in a different state will pay; those who buy in Massachusetts and then register in a different state won’t.

  6. My grandboss made a remark yesterday that has me really bothered. He said an outside contractor asked, “Does Name [me] hate me?” He indicated those were the exact words used.

    1) What grown adult says that to someone’s grandboss?

    2) It’s one of two people – a woman in her late 40s that I don’t care for. We’ve worked on two projects together, one in 2017 and this current one. I would describe my behavior to her as cool and professional. I’ve never been mean or nasty or ugly, but she is not my favorite person. She’s the owner of the outside contractor.

    The other is a woman in her 60s. She’s like any other person on earth to me – I’m polite and we get our work done.

    Grandboss told me about the “Does Name hate me?” remark back in January. I have not interacted with Woman 1 since January. I’ve made an effort to be friendlier and more cheerful around Woman 2.

    In yesterday’s remarks, Grandboss seemed to imply that remarks about my attitude have been ongoing. This hurt me deeply because who wants to hear that someone else thinks they’re a B?! Who wants to hear it from their grandboss? And because I genuinely believe I’m not doing anything wrong! Every colleague at our company will tell you I’m friendly and chatty and outgoing. This is the only personality clash I’ve had in my 8 years here…and it’s hardly a clash! I’m just cool and detached with her.

    Anyways, ugh, I’d like to ask Grandboss for clarification. Are there ongoing remarks about my attitude like you seemed to indicate yesterday? But I don’t know whether to say anything or how to say it. Thanks for your thoughts. And please be gentle. I’m already crushed from the idea that there have been multiple remarks about me when I’m just doing my job.

    1. But it sounds like you do hate her? And you’re nice to everyone else but cool and detached to her? It’s not an unreasonable question!

      1. Right?!

        Don’t ask your grandboss for clarification. You don’t need clarification. It’s obvious you haven’t hid your dislike of her as well as you thought you did. It is what it is; it’s not the end of the world. But it’s silly to pretend to seek clarification when you know what the issue is!

        2. +1. You described your relationship with her as cool and professional, but I assume you must actually be coming across as cold and unfriendly.

    2. You probably aren’t as cool as you think you’re being and it’s pretty obvious. Unfortunately being a professional in a corporate environment involves some degre of fake smiling especially to people who own companies.

      1. My DH once overheard me on a call with co-counsel I dislike and he said it was obvious from my tone that I hate the guy. So I second the opinion that your dislike is probably coming across.

        1. Years ago, co-counsel was someone I knew from childhood. Within 30 seconds of hanging up the call, one of the partners was like “I got to know what happened when you were kids” based on how we interacted. You never hide it as well as you think.

    3. “I’ve been thinking about that comment because I want to have a good relationship with our contractors. I’ve intentionally been friendlier toward Woman 2. Has she given any negative feedback recently?” And let your grandboss clarify if Woman 2 is happier now or if it was Woman 1.

      I have some clients that I hate professionally and it’s hard to hide completely. I find it’s easier to make personal small talk at the beginning or end of a meeting. Even if you aren’t warm when discussing work topics it shows (or gives the illusion) that you don’t hate them as a person.

    4. I would reframe this in your head: your job is also to get along well with internal and external colleagues. In essence, this is feedback that your performance is not meeting expectations. And since this feedback is coming from your grandboss, that means it has been escalated and you have a real problem that is now getting documented.

      Absolutely go ask for clarification but phrase it that you want to improve and need more information to do so. Otherwise I think your job may be at risk.

    6. You’re also being way too sensitive to this feedback. You say you don’t want to hear that somebody else thinks you’re a B, but you are being a B to that person, so what did you think was gonna happen?

    7. I dealt with a somewhat similar situation except in my case, the person brought it up directly with me. I used being pregnant and constantly sick as a reason I hadn’t been warm towards him and since then, we have built a good relationship. I actually didn’t like him at the time but I went out of my way to fake it. I wonder if you could consider being a little direct with her – say something like you have been swamped with things but are trying to make an effort to be more engaging and hope we can work together constructively going forward?This is assuming you want to have a better relationship with her.

    8. Based on what you’ve described here, if you’re going to raise this with either your grand boss or the contractor, you should be honest upfront that you’ve reflected and realize you’ve probably been a bit chilly and you’re going to make an effort to repair the relationship going forward. If you’re going to frame your “ask for clarification” in a shrug / “what did I do?” manner, it sounds like you would be gaslighting this woman, which would kind of add to the problem. Don’t be the analogy of the person who says something crappy and then tries to hide behind “it was just a joke, lighten up!”

      Alternatively, say nothing and just start acting better. I don’t really think “cool and professional” means much outside of a fictional tv character persona. In real life it’s more pleasant to deal with pleasant people.

      1. Yeah, I think you hit the nail on the head in your last paragraph. Just start being nice, OP, there’s no need to bring it up to anybody in advance.

        Also, it sounds like your company is a client of her’s and not the other way around, but either way it is a very bad move to be rude to the owner.

  7. So, this is a board with many successful lawyers. Any of you work for the firms that bent the knee to Trump? Any of you work at the firms that didn’t? Were you involved in decision making?

    1. Do you seriously think that if someone was involved in the decision they would post about it here?

      1. Right. People get completely excoriated for far less. What is the point of this post?

      2. There are so many law firms, it would be incredibly easy to post in an anonymous way.

        1. The legal world is surprisingly small. There aren’t that many law firms who’ve been in high profile conflicts with Trump, and fewer people at the decision-making level. It would be nuts to post about it here even anonymously.

        3. There are a small handful of law firms who have been targeted by EOs and bended the knee, in addition to Skadden, who did so preemptively. These firms are full of lawyers, who are generally a risk adverse bunch, even more so at the Exec Committee level. They are not going to post their thoughts here. Signed, former biglaw associate, now in house.

          1. And why would they? It’s very blatantly obvious why orgs support him. Either their own bottom line or that the exec committee agrees with his politics (may or may not be the same thing)

            It’s not that deep.

    3. If anybody did answer this as someone involved in the decision I would presume that they were lying/trolling.

    4. I’m not sure what the reason is for thinking that no one will answer this. There have been plenty of people discussing their experiences on other anonymous forums that include lawyers, although mostly from junior lawyers — I haven’t read anything from someone at a decisionmaking level. If you’re curious, just look elsewhere. There are many junior lawyers who are extremely upset.

    5. I saw that a law school has started tracking law firms reactions – I can’t remember which.

    6. I saw that a law school has started tracking law firms reactions so students can know how their firm responded before they decide where to work. smart.

    7. It’s pretty sad that even successful women lawyers, on an anonymous message board, are so scared they wont comment.

      2. Law firms have NDAs covering the partners, who will accordingly be silent on what is going on at their firms.

      3. It has nothing to do with the current admin. No good lawyer will talk about privileged or highly confidential matters even “anonymously.” I have recognized several real life acquaintances from allegedly anonymous posts here. Mostly from innocuous details like vacation plans and volunteer orgs they’re involved with so it wasn’t a big deal, but people who aren’t sharing confidential info here are being smart not “scared” and trying to bully people into spilling confidential info makes you sound really naive.

  8. We’re going to need a new car soon. Our 2011 car will be going to our teen after he turns 16 later this year. We’d planned on holding off on any vehicle purchases for DH, but should we buy one NOW before the economy completely tanks? We have a healthy e-fund and savings.

      1. I’d buy it now. Prices near me are already starting to drop/dealers are offering better financing as it is clear people are reigning in their spending.

    2. Are you needing to replace the car you’re giving to the teen or are you just wanting to update an older car? Our cars are ‘09 and ‘15 and we have no plans to replace them anytime soon. But they’re relatively low mileage Toyotas so we should have another decade, easily.

      1. We’re going to need a third vehicle soon, so I see this as replacing. Our oldest 2011 vehicle will go to the teen. I’m going to continue driving the 2020 minivan even though I’d love to downsize. DH is currently driving the 2011 and will need something else eventually.

    4. People are so spooked that Ford just announced it’s running an employee-pricing special for now through…May? June? Now’s a good time to buy.

  9. I’m horrified at everything going on in the country right now, and selfishly I’m also a bit stressed about my own prospects. Could this be a repeat of 2008/09 with big law hires? I’m a 2L and am working as a summer associate at a top firm this summer (think along the lines of Kirkland, Latham, PW, etc.) in litigation. Non-major market. Currently at a T14 (top of class, exec board of law review, getting published) and have ten years corporate work experience. If I do good work this summer, how scared should I be that I’ll get no offered and/or that my career won’t take off?

    1. Could happen. But you sound well positioned to rebound if it does. Things pick back up. I graduated into the dot com bust with big firm implosions and people got through it. You’re in the best track to come out okay so I wouldn’t worry about it. Work hard and get an offer.

    2. It’s a possibility, but as someone who lived through the previous recession and got no-offered my 2L summer in 2009, this feels different. This economic problem is driven by one person and he’s an egomaniac who will reverse course on things like tariffs if he senses he’s becoming unpopular.

      Also even if you get no-offered it doesn’t mean your career won’t take off. It took me ~18 months after graduation to work my way back into Big Law and it wasn’t a fun 18 months, but I got there. Although people say you can’t get into Big Law except through the summer associate pipeline, they’re talking about normal times. In recessions, all rules go out the window and firms recognize that there are lots of qualified candidates who aren’t on the traditional path.

    3. I graduated post Great Recession. Several of my friends did not get JD-required jobs at graduation. Fast forward to the present, and we are all satisfied with our careers.

    4. I graduated in 2010. My understanding is that the reason layoffs happened in 2008-10 is because firms were super busy and overinflated their hiring/didnt churn associates like they otherwise might have. Then all work dropped off a cliff and suddenly there were too many associates, which led to layoffs.

      I expected something like this to happen during/shortly after COVID. All of a sudden big firms started hiring en masse, paying $50k+ sign on bonuses to get as many associates as possible as quickly as possible. That sort of desperate, mass hiring is a red flag to me. Idk what happened to all those people but I didn’t hear about mass layoffs like 2008. I imagine there have been stealth layoffs, because despite all those hirings, I’m still hearing that firms are understaffed.

      My advice to a new associate would be to put in the work. I’m at an AmLaw 100 and the number of associates who think this is a 9-5 job is astounding to me. The pendulum on boundaries has swung way the other way. I don’t want people missing a funeral or working during childbirth but I also don’t want people to clock out at 5 and refuse to respond to email or phone calls. It’s wild to me, as a person who was very much in the what makes you think you can go to your grandma’s funeral junior associate class.

    5. None of us can give you a qualitative or quantitative answer that will make you feel better or give you any useful knowledge about your chances of being no offered or laid off. I, too, graduated post great recession when big law wasn’t hiring, nearly no one was hiring, and the market was flooded with great grads competing against great associates who had been laid off. It was not good. I second what the other poster said: my classmates and I who would have otherwise had good jobs managed to claw our way back up and are generally satisfied with our careers. Did it take longer? Yes. Did the early years involve working as “fellows” (i.e., for free), or at less prestigious firms, or doing work other than what we wanted? Yes.

      The best advice I can give you is to work very hard and make smart choices (i.e., I wouldn’t put my efforts into pursuing a job with the federal government right now, I would not pursue a niche area of law with very few and/or very competitive job openings). Position yourself as well as you possibly can. Do what it takes. If you wind up in a different place than you thought you would, bloom where you’re planted. You cannot control what happens in the market, but you can do the best you can under the circumstances and trust that you will land on your feet.

    6. I graduated 2010. I got no-offered from my 2L summer firm (as did a large chunk of the class). Had a fairly twisted career path for the first 3 years after graduation but eventually ended up at a large-ish firm. Fast forward 12 years and I’m working on a large litigation for a client. One of the other defendant’s counsel was one of my summer associate classmates who was still at the firm that no-offered me. So despite my no offer, we ended up in the exact same place doing the exact same thing. I’m not saying my path to end up there didn’t suck some, and it took me longer to pay off student loans than it would have if I’d gotten a large firm job right out of law school, but it turned out fine. So it’s a risk, but it will probably be ok. I will say I have a decent number of classmates who are no longer in legal careers, which I think is in part due to graduating in the recession, but could also just be general burnout with the legal profession.

      1. I had my offer revoked in 2009 (as did most of my class), and have had almost the exact same career story as this, right down to occasionally being in that same position in litigation. I would also say that there were sucky moments, but I’m so satisfied with my career now. I’m not sure if I would have ended up in the same place if I had not lost that offer – it was in a different practice area than I am now, so who knows – and if the answer is no, I wouldn’t change anything because I love my practice.

    7. It is possible. I was a junior associate in biglaw litigation in 2008. The firm I was at pulled back on hiring and expenses but did not conduct layoffs, though we constantly feared they were coming. I watched as classmates and friends were laid off, and friends a few years behind us struggled. Maybe one of us could have predicted which firms would conduct layoffs and who at those firms would be laid off, but what I learned is that it really was a measure of luck. Keep working hard, which it sounds like you have, and keep a sense of grit that you’ll make it through or figure it out.

    8. honestly i would say with your creds you’ll be fine unless you F up. particularly in a non-major market they’ll be happy to have you. will you clerk afterwards? that might make it easier for law firms also because it means they don’t have to pay you for a year.

    9. Agree with others. I graduated from a T-17 school in 2014. My school typically (and currently) sends about 2/3 to 75% of the class to BigLaw. My year only about 1/3 of the class had BigLaw offers on graduation and half had jobs on graduation. Many of us started as fellows and were hired by firms after we passed the bar exam. Most of my friends now have the types of jobs that we wanted to have when we graduated but may have taken a different path to get there. For example, I have the type of in-house role I wanted, but instead of moving from a BigLaw firm to here, I gradually gained relevant experience from smaller firms.

      I would recommend being intentional about networking. The more people you know, the better likelihood you hear about openings. I met a lot of people for coffee when I was looking for my first job, and I learned a lot about the legal profession that way, which meant I was able to be more intentional about looking for and landing jobs.

    10. I’m a graduating 3L with a BigLaw offer (but not V10) and a similar resume to you. I asked a lot of questions about how firms handled 2008/09 when I was deciding between offers, and I know my firm tends to preemptively adjust class sizes and practice group distributions rather than no-offer people. I believe the 2L class is 3-4 people smaller than mine because everyone was already feeling the rumblings of recession. Your firm might have already preemptively cut your class size for the same reason. Even so, I was told that my firm (as an example) might move you from a slow group to the bankruptcy group if that’s where the hours are. Your firm’s culture might vary as to practice group fluidity for incoming classes, but I found that comforting. From your post I’m guessing you are very smart, a hard worker, and someone who can operate well in an office, so I would not worry unless you think literally your entire class is getting cut. I hope this reassures you!

  10. I made this post yesterday, but very late. I got one very wise reply, but could use some more

    I am having a had time at work. I am trying to solve things, but meanwhile I have to try to be less affected. What are your tips for staying friendly on the surface, but deep down disconnecting more? many thanks

    1. I don’t know if this counts as a “tip” because for me at least it was sort of a long game, but the most effective thing to help me disconnect was becoming more engaged with my life outside of work and developing more areas of true satisfaction. Not only do you have more opportunities to disconnect mentally when you’re not working, but work takes on less and less importance in your life which makes it easier to have that emotional distance and create boundaries.

      Exercise also helps, and that’s faster.

    2. I tell myself, “Just make a reasonable effort” or “just get through the day unscathed.” It helps lessen the overwhelm and emotional distress.

    3. I wrote a note on the inside of my notebook (where I could see it basically all the time)
      “It’s not personal”

      That mantra has gotten me past a lot of work situations where I overly assume its about me.

    4. If acceptable in your office, listen to music in your headphones while you work. Whether that’s an upbeat gym playlist, a relaxing playlist, or just classical music without words, it is shocking to me how much of a difference it makes.

      And if you’re ready to throw money at the problem, buy a fresh bouquet of flowers for your office every week.

    5. My mantra is ‘what would Chadwick do?’

      He’s never going to put in effort to have the best work product, he’s churning out average. He’s never going above and beyond, he’s putting himself first. He never has guilt or second guesses himself.

  11. My parents are in their 80s. Mom has had chemo for stage 4 cancer; weighs about half what she used to. Dad barely weighs more than I do. She got facility-acquired COVID and he got it from her (living at home but visiting most of the day). I thought for sure it would kill them both and kill her quickly and that they’d have all of the horrible 2020 symptoms. You’d never had known that they had had it. Even for my mom, it didn’t register at all (she is still dying, but of the cancer, and slowly fading a bit each day). It is so, so hard, but I’m just astonished that the COVID was a nothing burger, given their background state and very poor nutrition (mom’s cancer is a digestive one; dad doesn’t cook). Luckily, I didn’t get it from them and was able to gown and mask to visit and make sure dad has had food and update him on mom.

    Is there a place to get 2024-2025 COVID stats or do people even track that any more?

    1. Are they vaccinated? I think it’s weird to expect it to kill them if they’ve been vaccinated and especially if they’ve been boosted. That’s the whole point of the vaccines! I’m glad they’re ok though. And no I don’t think anyone really tracks stats anymore.

      1. I think that they got shots and boosters in the initial rounds, but starting in 2023 did not get them due to mom’s chemo and likely just got flu shots.

        Given their age and highest-possible risk status (with chemo, mom has basically no immune system left from my understanding and pretty must stayed home and only dad went masked to the grocery store), I wouldn’t have been surprised, I guess. Or I would have expected to be seriously ill in a new / different way. I would not have been expecting the unremarkable ordinariness compared to the week prior.

        1. My elderly relatives also did very well. Vaccines work.

          But one of them never quite returned to her baseline mentally.

    2. my mid-70s mom just got it for the first time and it’s knocked her on her a$$ – she isn’t in the best of health but doesn’t have cancer. she’s had all the boosters. i think it’s so interesting how some people seem really susceptible to it (my husband has had it 4x) and other people barely know they’re sick, like the one time i definitely had it. (i unofficially had it in 3/20 and that screwed me up for at least a year, but obviously we weren’t testing then.)

      1. Same, I either never got it or got it before it was testable. My husband got it, finally, in 2023 and it knocked him out for 2 weeks. I never got it from him and neither did any of our 3 kids. I joke that we should sell our blood for testing ;)

          1. Yeah I think Covid hasn’t been properly tracked in at least a year. The seasonal flu tracking was a bigger thing shut down by this admin.

    4. In my region, I go by the wastewater testing to see how we’re doing with Covid, flu, and certain other diseases. Since most people manage these illnesses at home, I prefer to rely on wastewater testing to see if I should step up my precautions.

      https://data.wastewaterscan.org/

    6. I’m sorry about what your family is going through; that all sounds very hard.

      The mortality rate for facility acquired COVID has been measured at its highest around 10%, which is too high in my opinion to excuse facilities from taking existing precautions to prevent transmission, but still means a majority of people survive, and probably a majority also only experience symptoms of a head cold or flu since that’s always been true of the acute stage of infection even in high risk groups ever since 2020. I think also at least some of the really dangerous acute symptoms are produced by our own immune system. (I’m not saying this to trivialize the virus; there’s a lot of harm it can do without causing symptoms let alone acute respiratory crisis.)

      CDC still was putting up stats last I checked, though less testing makes for less reliable data. There’s a guy at Tulane who makes pretty charts here: https://pmc19.com/data/ Your Local Epidemiologist still updates on what’s going around in general (in addition to providing updates on the state of public health under the current administration).

      I’m really glad it wasn’t a big deal for them.

    7. By “people” do you mean our country’s public health system that is being very quickly dismantled?

  12. What job boards are popular these days? Is Indeed still the ticket? I’m changing states and career specialties, so I’m looking for general job listings.

    2. I use the site hiring dot cafe. It pulls job listings directly from company sites so it’s a lot less spammy than LinkedIn.

    1. No Sephora, we will not comment with product recommendations and sale dates. Weak marketing effort.

    2. I like the Sephora house brand body butter and body scrub and always stock up on those.

    3. looks like there isn’t a sunscreen sampler out yet. If it comes out, would be super nice if someone drops a PSA here.

    4. Replenishing my sunblock. Not really buying a lot, I need to save, but there’s also a lot of meh stuff. Sephora needs to step up their game, have been weaning off them for a while now.

  14. I currently have an in-house role in a corporate office in City A. In the next few months, I will be primarily supporting a client in City B and would be traveling there a decent amount. DH’s job is remote. We are not super happy with the cost of living v. schools in our area. DH is originally from City B. His family is still in there and lives in an area with good public schools.

    I am toying with the idea of moving to City B– primarily to be closer to family, better schools, etc. My main hold-up is what to do when and if I need to change jobs. Companies that hire my position exist in City B, but I am not really finding open roles on LinkedIn (whereas I see openings in City A). However, I can’t tell if this is because there are inherently less openings or if the markets just operate differently– my next role also will be more senior, so I’m not really sure it would be something advertised on LinkedIn anyway.

    We know a lot of people in City B but not really in the legal profession. Most of my professional network is in City A or in my hometown (where the market operates similar to City A). How would I go about learning more about the market in City B to figure out if this move makes any sense? (Fwiw– City B is a large city with lots of jobs. City A is actually much smaller, but the jobs in my field seems to be concentrated here.)

    1. If there’s a decent market in B and your company is fine with you moving, go there. You’ll create new networks. And perhaps expand your skill set or the way you think about what you do so there’s more opportunity for you in B if you need it.

  15. WWYD. We’ve had the same cleaning guy for 9 years. Over the past 2-3 years, the quality of the cleaning has gone down and the time spent on cleaning the house has gone way, way down. We used to pay $100 per clean, then $120, and now we are up to $145. Over the years we’ve had 2 people for ~90 minutes, sometimes 3 people for 60-90 minutes, and for the past 6 months or so, it’s just been one person for 90 minutes. It has been the same guy the entire time, just +/- a helper.

    We are not always there when they clean so I don’t know which days were longer or shorter. Occasionally they had a bad day/subpar job, but for the past few months it seems like a terrible job every time. Today, he was here solo for <2 hours. My kitchen counters weren't wiped off and the kitchen table looked like maybe it was brushed off with his hand but not actually washed in any way- both of which are totally standard. Microwave wasn't clean, bathroom counters were just high level wiped, my shower doesn't look like it was cleaned at all. Nothing is dusted (eg. tops of dressers, hall tables, etc). All of this stuff used to be done in the past. Forget that he's making $70/hour under the table, the job was not a $150 clean at any number of hours. (FWIW this is very much market rate near me).

    I am trying to figure out what to do. Do I try and give him a chance to fix this, or just find someone new? I would say what started out as an A level of service declined to a B/B-, and is currently at a C/C- and has been for several months. We communicate via text. It's so bad that sending all the misses via text seems unproductive.

    I get the sense that he's trying to take on more/keep existing clients with less help but I also don't know how much of this is really mine to worry about. I had to clean my shower after he left the past two times and I just wiped crumbs off the kitchen table that was very clearly missed. My kids are also old enough where they can start stepping up around the house- maybe I break up with him for that reason, and eventually find someone else to step in?

      1. That doesn’t really solve their problem. Over the table doesn’t mean the cleaner will do a better job.

    2. I would be mad too. You could put him on notice about the decline in work….and also begin the search for a new person. That is a lot of money for subpar work. Yes, the kids can do stuff too, it will teach them a good set of life skills.

    3. I had this same thing happen with my housekeeper over the course of about 7 years.
      We switched to someone new in January, and I’m so happy my house is finally clean again, even though we are paying substantially more.

      Just thank him for the work he’s done until now & let him know you won’t need his services anymore. No need to justify or argue. It’s just business.

      1. +1 I’d just let him go professionally and politely and probably not even bring up a reason.

      2. I’m mean I guess because I would move on & also let him know it’s because my house wasn’t getting cleaned to standard

        1. And also maybe it actually helps him to know his current strategy isn’t working to retain clients

    4. Ime you can’t let too many things slide or the standards go downhill. If I see something isn’t done then I’ll text them. Next clean will be great again. If you show them you don’t care then they’ll spend less time on your house so they can spend more time elsewhere.

  16. This is close to something I would wear, but still a miss for me personally. The price is great, but I need just a little more shape or structure to keep from feeling frumpy. Nordstrom Rack has a Nordstrom-brand pleated midi skirt in solid colors that I could wear almost year-round. Quince has one too (that I’m presently rocking at work).

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