Frugal Friday’s TPS Report: Bengaline Tab Front Pencil Skirt

148 Comments

1. The skirt looks nice, but my worry is that it hugs the booty a bit too much for the workplace.

   Threadjack! Any advice on packing for a month-long trip in Europe? I’m not backpacking (staying in relatively nice hotels) but will be gone for awhile in various cities. My thought so far has been to pack a lot of casual jersey dresses that I can handwash. Any other tips?

   1. Emma – I have gone a few times, and I find adding a couple of tank tops, scarves and cardigans can give you an extra “outfit” or two. I agree with dresses too, and maybe a couple of pairs of leggings and some jewellery that changes them from causal to a bit dressier for dinner, etc. I had a black jersey dress that I wore with/without a belt/leggings/cardigan/scarf/jewellery – got a lot of mileage from it (though was sick of it when I got home). Have fun!

      1. Thanks! I’m somewhat worried about the laundry situation. I tried looking at some of the hotel websites to see if they had laundry services, but I didn’t see any mention of them.

         1. Best advice I’ve ever received: Pack light (carry-on only), and do laundry in the sink. Look for things that dry quickly. (NOT cotton).

         2. Not sure where you’re staying, but most “nice” hotels will do your wash for you, it’s just very expensive (I still haven’t gotten over paying 16 euro for a pair of jeans in 2003). BUT — Mariott hotels (and perhaps other American chains) usually have laundry facilities for use by their guests, so I would just call and check with where you’re staying.

            That said, I think jersey dresses are a great idea. I would also throw in some cardigans in the mix, I think those tend to give you a lot of mileage. Bring at least 2 pairs of good walking shoes, so you can alternate and also diversify your outfits. Depending on where you go, heels may be difficult (cobble stones, steep and windey streets, etc.). Bring a back that is easy to carry, maybe something crossbody so it’s not easy to steal/pickpocket. Consider bringing a rain jacket of some sort (not sure where you’re going though . . .) And, don’t pack too much — part of the fun of going to Europe is all the fantastic shopping! Have a great time — your trip sounds fabulous!

            1. Yeah I think I’m just going to bring one pair of wedges as my “heels.” I’m going to London > Edinburgh > Dubrovnik > Budapest > Berlin. Thanks for the tips!

            2. jealous! I love Dubrovnik — one of my favorite places I’ve ever visited.

               I agree with jersey dresses. They fold (or scrunch, without too many wrinkles) very small to fit in suitcases and you won’t stick out as an American quite so much in a dress. A black jersey faux wrap dress was my staple for traveling in Europe.

         3. They are NOT that carful about having clean clothes over there. My room mate in college from Germany NEVER washed her sweaters, and it smelled BAD. And she would have had a nice boyfriend, but he could not take it.

            I think you should bring youre own WOOLITE and wash your clothes in the sink.

            Do not stay where there is a shared bathroom. There are alot of weirdos that watch you in the bathroom there with cameras. FOOEY on that!

            1. Actually, I’ve been told that Woolite is not good for fine hand washables. Instead, baby shampoo has been recommended. If your hair doesn’t get that dirty, you could bring or buy a bottle and use it for your hair and hand laundry.

               Some people might find the styles dowdy, but Travel Smith sells versatile clothes that are easy to pack and launder.

         4. If you don’t mind taking your laundry by yourself, there are places like laundromat in Europe. In France, they are called : laverie automatique or lavomatique or blanchisserie (which is more of a dry cleaner).

            1. Yeah I’d definitely do it myself. Laundromats have been rare in places I’ve lived here, so I didn’t really think about that.

      2. And re the tank tops/cardis/scarves….all change up one pair of jeans and take up very little room in your suitcase ;)

   2. I’d bring one or two dresses max, a casual skirt or two, and then bring a few pairs of jeans/tops. You can usually wear jeans several times before you have to wash them, and if you bring some light t-shirts, you’ll be able to handwash/dry them without much difficulty. I don’t know where you are going, but when I lived in London and traveled around Europe, I didn’t really feel a need to dress up that much when going out. Usually a nicer pair of jeans was all that was needed and I rarely ended up wearing my dressier items.

      If you are going now, some places will be very hot, and you’ll probably have to deal with thigh chafing and other issues walking miles in a dress each day. It just isn’t all that appealing to me, although I know some people do it.

      1. Also, if your hotels don’t do laundry, they should be able to refer you to a cleaner nearby that will do quick cleanings if necessary. I wouldn’t stress about this. As long as you’re in a place a few days, there should be some time to do a basic wash/fold.

         1. Sweet, good to know.

      2. I’d add a denim skirt in a dark wash. Like jeans; it can be dressed up or down and will make it through a couple wears without looking dingy. Have fun!

   3. Pack stuff you can roll up into little balls to maximize space – good-quality jersey stuff works great. Bring as little as humanly possible and shop there (that way, you’ll get a feel for the local fashion and can incorporate it into your look). Bring inexpensive stuff you won’t miss if you decide you’d rather leave it behind to make room for something new you’ve acquired on your trip. And bring a nice fragrance spray – something light you can mist your clothes with – last time I was there, everyone smoked and my clothes got stinky faster than I felt like washing them!

   4. Emma, we use laundromats once every few days.

      1. You also might need to pack and/or buy a light trenchcoat. In London at least it is already chilly (low to mid 50s).

         1. Wow, didn’t realize it was that chilly already. I’m hoping for beach weather in Croatia. I have one I’ll pack. Thanks!

            1. Croatia — super jealous!

            2. I was in Dubrovnik and Split the last weekend of October last year, and it was definitely not beach weather. I was comfortable in pants and a tee shirt, and needed a sweater at night for sure. I was told that past the end of September is not beach weather, so hopefully you make it there sooner than that! Enjoy!

               And in Budapest go to one of the baths, they’re crazy cheap- I paid ~16Euro for a massage, a face mask, and all day at the baths. So great.

            3. @Equity’s Darling — I’ll be there mid-September, so… crossing fingers.

            4. I was in Budapest/Prague, etc. in September a few years ago and I was definitely wearing a coat. It was not warm.

            5. I live near Croatia. Mid-September can still be beach weather, but you cannot count on it.

   5. I would go for laundromat, and perhaps just pack enough for one-two weeks. Maybe look into where you’ll be staying on GoogleMaps, and see if there is anything (laundromat/cleaner) in the vicinity.

   6. It will be cooler in Europe, especially northern Europe, than it is in most of the US. Jersey dresses may not be warm enough without leggings/tights and a sweater. You might be more comfortable in jeans, although I’m usually a dress person too so I understand if you don’t like jeans. I suggest bringing a couple of pretty, long scarves to wrap around your neck both to look stylish and keep warm.

      1. I also think you will need tights and leggings for some of your trip – Edinburgh and Berlin will be a bit crisp mid-September for bare legs even if the weather is good. (I’ve worn short sleeves in September in both places, but I don’t think I’ve ever shown more leg than a bit between ankle bone and end-of-legging). A scarf or two and a fairly windproof trench is a good idea. If the trench is waterproof, so much the better – Edinburgh is where umbrellas go to die.

         But have fun! You’ve picked nearly all my favourite cities!

         1. And I had to wear a trenchcoat there in June. I would recommend leggings, too.

   7. Sounds like a great trip. Pack a pair of fun leather gloves. I find that if my hands are warm, I’m fine wearing a sweater or light jacket even on a cool night. Also, pack febreez (there is travel size) to freshen things when you cannot get wash done.

   8. I don’t know where you’re coming from in the US (or Canada?), but while it CAN get hot occasionally, the places you’re going will likely be cooler than you’re expecting. I went to Glasgow in June, and London in August (and I live in the Netherlands), and while it’s occasionally been warm, I’ve never regretted wearing jeans or having a jacket or cardigan with me. I think dresses are great — comfy and you look more put together — but I would definitely consider bringing along tights or leggings as others have suggested. I also want to put in a whole-hearted plug for scarves. They are such a great accessory, and I really think they do help you blend in more. When I was somewhere hot (so maybe this will help in Croatia), I used a light cotton scarf as a statement piece, head wrap (my dark hair just got too hot), makeshift sarong/pareo, and as a shield from sun when I started to turn pink.

      1. …but I’ve been shocked at how cold Europe is relative to the states (from Colorado). Having been there only in the summer previously, I FROZE in England and Germany in early fall and had to buy warmer clothes there. Even if the temperatures are similar, it felt cooler there to me. I would suggest layers including jackets, jeans, long-sleeved shirts and scarves. Unfortunately this stuff is all larger to pack than more summery clothes, but you won’t enjoy your vacation if you’re cold every time you go outside. I’ve not been to Croatia, so I can’t speak to that, but jealous!!

2. Sorry for the immediate threadjack, but how are those of you in NYC preparing for Hurricane Irene? Do you think the transit shut down will last into Monday? Are you planning for not being able to get to work Monday morning?

   1. Thanks for this! I am also kind of worried. First of all, I live in one of the evacuation zones — if they do make the order to evacuate, how the hell is anyone going to get anywhere without public transportation?

      Second of all, I’m supposed to go on a business trip on Monday morning…

      1. I have no experience of this, but I assume that if an evacuation is ordered, the City will provide transportation or at least, a partial escort. I assume you know where your evacuation center is located. You might want to check it out, along with preparing a “Go Bag.”

         If it’s an important business trip, maybe you should leave now, postpone, or look into web conferencing.

         1. I think they will announce the evacuation ahead of the storm hitting. Bloomberg said something like 8 a.m. Saturday he will make the call, so presumably you have a few hours to pack and travel. (And you can just travel to midtown, basically, or your borough’s equivalent.) I think the brunt of the storm is expected to hit Saturday night.

            What kinds of supplies are people buying, and in what quantities? I don’t think I can carry more than a day or two’s worth of water, and I’m not sure how much will even be for sale by the time I’m done with work tonight. Where does one buy a battery-operated radio?

            1. If you are staying put and anticipate no power for some time, you could order one from amazon on one day/saturday delivery. We in Houston have them on hand, and like the hand crank additional feature. I also like that they have radio and local tv stations so we can get local news when power is out in our neighborhood. You might look at Radio Shack too, or even Walgreens, although I’d expect a “run” on the radios locally.

               Don’t forget a few weeks worth of prescription/daily meds! Although pharmacies are on the short list of businesses with priority for electricity returns, it’s best to be prepared. Also creams for heat rash and contact dermatitis if there’s going to be debris clean up on your parts. First aid supplies too.

               Wishing all the best to everyone and hopefully no need to truly evacuate. We’ve horror stories of that in Houston, with the freeways just jammed and standstill…I think that was H. Rita … friends went one freeway exit in 3 hours and just went back home. We stayed home to begin with. Houston has no true mass transit system. But I’m imagining the same crush of people …

               Best wishes and prayers!

            2. If you have a clock radio, it probably has a battery backup. Check to make sure you have plenty of batteries for it.

               What are you guys following for your hurricane news?

            3. Former Floridian here: Buy candles — they sell out quickly. If you are staying, fill your bathtub with water. I wouldn’t necessarily drink it, but it is perfectly fine for sink bathing, flushing toilets, cleaning, etc.

               We used to keep a few empty gallon jugs or large cookpots and fill them with water for cooking. Other than that, can goods (make sure you have a manual rather than electric can opener), dry goods (if you think you’ll lose power, cook some preemptively), and lots of booze (preferably the type that tastes good at room temp).

               Also, resist the urge to second-guess your decision. If you decide to stay, don’t jump in your car right before the storm hits. People get killed every storm with those types of split second decisions.

            4. If you have to evacuate, definitely shorten your list of supplies. If you wind up in, say, a hotel in a safe place, that’s alot different from being in a house without safe tap water and with your street or driveway blocked. If you’re a city dweller without a car, there’s only so much you can carry.

               To follow the progress of the storm: local TVnews will give good advice. You may also want to be familiar with the Weather channel, as well as internet sites like weather underground and (my favorite) NOAA.gov

               I actually think hurricanes are exciting, but the mess they leave behind is no fun at all. Please be careful if you wind up using a generator (carbon monoxide danger), chainsaw, or just too much heavy lifting in hot weather after the storm passes.

            5. I live in a “No Zone.” I’d been putting off buying some Poland Spring water (which I drink anyway). I hate shopping during any ordinary day. The Gristedes was packed. The large container I usually buy that has a handle and usually last a couple of weeks was sold out. I had to struggle with an 8-pack of bottles. I really hope I haven’t underestimated this thing.

               I would buy canned food and make sure you have a manual can opener. I usually drink coffee with milk, but I may switch to tea if milk is hard to find.

               If I were going to buy a radio, I’d get one of those models with a hand crank that does not require batteries. Or it takes batteries, but you can still run it by hand.

      2. MTA has said that if evacuation of low lying areas is ordered they’ll run transit.

         1. @LawyrChk: Per the Red Cross info sheet, do NOT get candles. The last thing you need after a hurricane is a fire! Flashlights (if those sell out, consider getting a bike headlight — these are usually LED and lightweight) are sufficient.

      3. Random tips: Those bottles of water they tell you to buy? Not just for drinking. Also for washing and flushing toilets. i know from experience. so stock up. You can fill your bathtub w/ water and use that to flush the toilet with if there’s no water.

         D batteries are sold out basically all over the financial district. It took me 10 stores to finally find some, and that was one of those random little stores that cells like cell phone covers and luggage. You’re not going to have much luck with radios–I went to 34th kmart last night and they were already out of that and flashlights.

         I’m in Zone A b/c I’m right by the water in LIC. I will be evacuating to a friend’s futher into Queens if it has any chance of hitting us as a hurricane, because there’s literally nothing between our building and the river and I can definitely see my lobby flooding and me not being able to get out. If you’re not right by the water, you’re probably fine in terms of flooding, but it’s entirely possible there would be power outages from any number of causes that will effect places other than just by the water, so get some candles/flashlights/nonperishable food (cans are worthless unless you want to eat cold canned food–just buy bread and peanut butter, or crackers or something).

         as for transportation, they won’t shut it down until saturday night, and if they issue any evacuation orders, it’ll be saturday morning.

         1. also passing along a tip from a friend from Louisiana: run your air conditioner as high as you can for a couple hours before the worst of the storm hits so that way if the power goes out, it will stay cooler longer.

         2. …and I just saw on mta they’re shutting mass transits down at noon tomorrow? Surely they’ll come up with something for evacuations…

   2. I work from home, so it’s not an issue for me. If I had to report to an office, I would try to arrange to telecommute. I imagine most offices are making related arrangements, or if necessary, permitting their key employees to stay in town over the weekend.

      I was once stuck in an un-air conditioned NYC subway for over an hour after a heavy thunderstorm flooded the system. An experience to be avoided. Of course, there have been far worse incidents.

      I hope all these preparedness warnings will be much ado about nothing. But my browser is open to a tracking map.

      1. The City seems to be on top of this, but the safest assumption is that things will be at best, very inconvenient if a storm hits.

   3. If there is heavy rain on Sunday, yes, it is very likely that the subways will flood and there will be significant loss/decline in service. This happened about 4 years ago after a bad summer storm which didn’t even approach tropical storm levels.
      I’d plan on taking home work/laptops if you’re unable to walk to work. Many large offices (and companies) will understand the situation and have evacuation/emergency plans in place. Its also very likely that the major airports will shut down for a period of time and at the very least have major travel delays.
      Many (if not most) cab drivers live in the outer boroughs, so there may be difficulties getting cabs if there is major flooding in Bklyn/Queens. Walking is your best bet. Also – if you live on an upper floor, fill up your bathtub and store some water. If your building doesn’t have a backup generator you may not be able to flush your toilet without manually filling it with water. Fun to think of, I know.

   4. At yesterday afternoon’s press conference, I think the MTA chairman said that it could take up to 8 hours to get transit back up and running in the event of a total shutdown. My understanding was that this was because they would need to move trains/buses that had been moved to higher ground back to their usual yards/depots before they would be able to resume service. I’m planning for a transit problem on Monday morning, just in case.

      As for stocking up, I’m not in a flood zone (although the next block over is Zone C), so I’m not horribly worried about flooding. I am worried about the power going out. I’m currently on the hunt for an LED lantern (the hubby is checking Home Depot, and if not, I’ll run to Sears at lunch.)

   5. I think one of the most important things to remember is that the Red Cross’s standard response time is three days. So you need three days worth of food and water. Each person needs a gallon of water per day not counting bathing or using a toilet. (And you can fill your bathtub up for that water.)

      I’ll be by myself (since my Emergency Manager fiance will be at work) so I’m thinking 2 gallons water, several cans of tuna, some stuff for buritos, cereal and fresh fruit. Maybe some granola bars. Nothing complicated.

      You should know where your nearest shelter is, because if electricity goes out and you need to evacuate for some reason, it may be hard to get directions. (I’ve got it printed out and just stuck in my “go bag” along with photocopies of IDs etc.) That will also probably be your the drop point or distribution center for Red Cross supplies should problems last longer than 3 days.

      I’d definitely charge all battery devices on Saturday and have extra batteries for flashlights.

      Monday’s commute will be hell if they shut down the trains.

      Personally, I’ll be cleaning house, doing some reading and making brownies this weekend. Not really worried.

   6. Normally I post as blonde lawyer. Please keep your pets in mind too. Make sure you have plenty of food, water, and meds for them ahead of time. Consider their potential first aid needs too. Dogs can take buffered asprin for joint pain. CATS CANNOT.

      Find out now if you can bring your pets if you have to go to a shelter. If not, find a plan B now. Call your local animal control or shelter for suggestions. Get copies of vet records to prove your pets are UTD on their shots. Many shelters require dogs to be crated and they may not be able to provide one. If there is any chance you will have to evacuate with your pet, get a crate.

      If your pet isn’t microchipped, please consider it. It is cheap and the number 1 way to reunite you. If you evacuate, even to a friends house, put your current location and contact info on the crate and if possible, in an ID holder attached to your pet’s collar.

      Please don’t just leave your pet behind. You don’t know how long it will be until you can get back.

      1. Thank you for this!

      2. Great reminder.

   7. I really don’t mean to make light of the hurricane, so please don’t think this is intended to be snarky, but are people really worried about this in NYC? I know that there is some potential danger if you’re way out by the water (Rockaway, Battery Park, etc.), but am I wrong to think that most of the city will be absolutely fine?

      All I am doing to prepare is taking in my plants & furniture off the balcony so they don’t get knocked over by wind. I already have a ton of candles (scented) in my apt., but I might pick up a couple of extra jugs of water, and some munchies, just in case the weather is too terrible to get take out. I also probably won’t make any plans to go out for brunch or the like.

      1. Well, it PROBABLY won’t be like that scene in The Day After Tomorrow, where the city floods and freighter goes sailing past the library.

         On the other hand, if Dennis Quaid came around to rescue me after the hurricane, I might not mind the hurricane so much.

      2. “I also probably won’t make any plans to go out for brunch or the like.”

         This made me laugh out loud. I’m a tiny bit worried, simply because I’m on the edge of Zones B and C, but really I’m just worried that we will lose power for a prolonged period or not have enough food/water. But, I’ll pick up some food at the store, fill some pots with water, and assume everything will be fine.

      3. Yeah, I would say your main worry is an extended loss of power/public transit, not so much actual damage. Basically, prepare yourself for a period of inconvenience, not the apocalypse.

   8. I decided to leave the city and work from my family’s house in NJ. I will come back to NYC after work on Monday. I am able to log in remotely. I didn’t feel like being in my high rise apartment (which is mostly windows) during hurricane force winds. I am also on the border of the evacuation zone. I think everything will be ok, but figured that there may be power outtages and no mass transit. I figured it was better to be west of the city.

   9. Don’t forget to have plenty of CASH on hand, particularly if you live outside the city. ATMs don’t work during power outages, nor can merchants and gas stations process credit cards when there’s no electricity. During Hurricane Ike, our yard sustained considerable damage and all of the workers who showed up to clear debris, cut down uprooted trees, etc. needed to be paid in cash.

3. I don’t like this overall look at all. It just screams waitstaff to me, no matter how nice the pieces are individually. Which they are.

   1. The skirt is too tight, and in person the fabric probably looks cheap.

   2. “Waitstaff.” You hit the nail on the head; I was wondering what I was trying to put my finger on.

      1. This.

      2. That’s what my mother calls black and white separates with no accessories to “seal” the outfit.

         1. Cater Waiter!

   3. Agreed. I almost never like the white shirt-black skirt combo bc of that.

      1. i like this look in different colors. a grey skirt with a blue shirt, for example. but i wonder, is it too sexy? the outfit is body-hugging and with the long hair it feels a little too much. thoughts?

         1. my exact worry, because this is my price point.

         2. The model resembles the actress who plays a paralegal in a summer series called “Suits.” She is invariably dressed to thrill; everything is too tight and she walks on stilt stilettos. It’s a ridiculous look for a character who’s supposed to be a serious, very smart person who would be a lawyer but for her test phobia.

   4. Agreed with both points in this subthread: 1. It’s what I wore in my waitressing days. 2. The booty-cut skirt and the wild hair remind me of twenty-year-olds desperately trying to look sexy while wearing their restaurant uniform.

4. Sorry for another threadjack, but maybe some of you ladies have some insights for me? My husband and I have been married for 10+ years, have three small children, and have been in marriage counseling for over six months. Things have only improved slightly in some ways and in some ways gotten worse.

   Sometimes we walk away from a session and I feel like our counselor hit the nail on the head (in which case, my husband usually feels like she’s way off) and other times I feel like she’s missed the mark (in which case, sometimes my husband agrees and other times he does not). After a particularly upsetting session last night (serious fighting between my husband and I during it), she asked if we would like to take a break from counseling. Sometimes it feels like we do “okay” between our sessions, but then we have a session where talk about problems and things go south. I’m not sure if she thinks that maybe we just need to cool off for a while?

   I’m becoming really depressed because I don’t see things getting any better (and they are getting worse in some ways) at home. I’m confused because I’m not sure if we need a new counselor or if our marriage is just so broken that it’s hopeless. I’m having trouble shaking the feeling that I’m just delaying the inevitable, but at the same time, I wouldn’t be able to live with myself if I didn’t try to do everything I could to keep our family together for our kids, who would be completely devastated if my husband and I separated.

   I’d love to hear from anyone who has been in marriage counseling. Were you able to save your marriage? Encouragement? Advice? Thank you!!!

   1. I’m so sorry you’re going through this. In the encouragement vein, while your kids will probably be “devastated” for a brief time, kids are resilient, especially little kids. If you end up having to go the divorce route, as long as both you and their father can behave like mature adults that don’t badmouth the other parent, your kids will be fine. You can be a good parenting team even if you’re not married. Lots of smart, healthy, happy kids come from divorced-parent families, and they are probably young enough that it will never occur to them that it is their fault.

      What WILL damage your kids if they see their parents hacking out an obviously failed marriage and/or their parents are unhappy for years. Speaking from my own experience in this area, that kind of marriage offers rotten role models – I had a string of relationships that were bad in retrospect because I didn’t realize that a relationship could be better than the one full of simmering frustration and resentment that my parents had. I’m told that my parents were once happy (back when they got married), but as far back as my memory goes, I can never remember them being happy together. It took me a long time to realize that a marriage can and should be a source of joy and companionship – something I never saw at my house.

      Hugs to you in this incredibly difficult time.

      1. ETA re: kids thinking it’s their fault. Obviously, problems in a marriage are absolutely 100% not their fault. But older kids can sometimes think that it is their fault, which is very upsetting and anxiety-inducing, especially if the marriage does end up in divorce, while that (totally wrong) thought never even crosses the mind of little kids.

      2. This. I’d add that if you’re not ready to call it quits, then look for another counselor and keep trying. You have to get to a point emotionally where you’re confident that ending the relationship is the best thing for everyone involved. But please don’t let guilt about your kids keep you from ending a marriage if you know it needs to end. Best of luck.

      3. I say get another counselor before you throw in the towel on the marriage.

         1. I agree with this. You want to know that you tried everything you could before you walk away (if it comes to that), so another counselor or adviser is worth exploring.

      4. >What WILL damage your kids if they see their parents hacking out an obviously failed marriage and/or their parents are unhappy for years.

         Exactly this is happening to a divorcing couple I know. Both their kids are in their early 20s, just starting out with careers and adulthood, and both of them are now a mess. Worse yet, both mom and dad are saying with their actions, “We stayed married for you. Well, now you guys are over 18 and we’ve put in our time and we’re done now.”

         So these young men are being shown 1) that 20 years of misery was due to them and 2) that the parenting they got was purely out of obligation and that obligation is now over. It breaks my heart.

         I am sorry this is happening to you, and I hope your husband feels as protective of the kids’ emotional health as you do.

   2. It sounds like you know that you’re delaying the inevitable. Truly sorry.

   3. I’m not married, but the only thing I can say is that all the married couples I know who have done counseling have stopped way before “over six months,” as you say you’ve been at it. That’s nothing trivial on your part, or your husband’s. No matter what you decide to do–and I’m in no position to give advice–you’ve put in a very admirable effort compared to most. The couples I know have ended up going both ways (staying together and divorcing), but I wonder if your counselor is suggesting a break because she feels you’ve already gotten from her all that you’re going to get.

      I’m sorry, and I wish you the best.

   4. Can you tell us a little bit more about the problems? I feel like there are two kinds of experiences with relationship counseling: the “I just don’t know how to say that I want to break up” experience where someone is waiting for the counselor to call it so you can break up with a clear conscience, and the “we are having trouble relating because we have deeper issues and come from different places but we REALLY want to make this work so please help us.”

      If you feel like it’s the former, then you might be right that you’re just delaying the inevitable. But if you feel like it’s the latter, it might be a matter of finding a new therapist or finding individual therapists. Even taking a break from therapy could be a good idea, if spending an hour a week hashing out your problems is making things worse.

      Good luck and keep us posted – this is a very tough situation to be in.

      1. I love my husband in that I care about what happens to him – I want him to be happy and get what he wants – but I don’t feel romantic toward him anymore. I want to change that. I desperately want to be “in love” again, but things have happened between us that damaged our relationship (not cheating – letting me and the kids down, being verbally cruel to me when he was having emotional problems of his own). I don’t even know whether it’s possible. I don’t see him now as someone I respect. Can I love and respect him again? At the same time, he feels that I’ve treated him poorly (I disagree…). I definitely do NOT want to break up (he says he doesn’t either). I just don’t know how to fix things.

         We don’t fight all the time. We can go a couple weeks peacefully coexisting, and then something happens and we have a blow out. Things are fine or even great again until the next time.

         1. Peacefully coexisting doesn’t sound like the way to be in a marriage. I’m single but that’s not the kind of thing I’d want in a relationship.

            On another note, I know that if I’m still angry/emotional in regards to someone I’m fighting with, there is still a chance to fix things. For me, I know it’s time to throw in the towel when I don’t care enough to even continue fighting.

            My thoughts are with you and I wish you the best in this difficult situation. And don’t worry about your kids, my parents got divorced and I’m better off because of it. As long as you explain the situation in terms they’ll understand and remain civil with their father, everything will work itself out.

            *hugs*

         2. I know many folks honestly agree to a trial separation in two domiciles, preferably close to each other. No dating of others. But intentionally, planned dating your spouse, with scheduled dates to rekindle if possible. Time with the kids together, taking to school as usual routines, to practices/games/events, and even bedtime (since you’re not dating others) routines so that the parent-child relationship remains intact.

            The idea is to have some time alone and quiet for thinking, missing each other, dating and yearning for each other, and to experience what separation could mean in oh so many ways, not just the “Oh, I have to do this now” sort of thing.

            I’d say about 50% of those who do a trial get back together successfully … if they stay in therapy during that trial …. therapy as a couple and therapy for each person individually. The other 50% use the trial as a way to get to divorce without nastiness etc.

            Wishing you all the best. It is key to have individaul therapists, neither of whom are the one doing the marital work. Alliances get to be problematic, as you might imagine.

            My favorite divorce book is “Mom’s House, Dad’s House” as it focuses upon keeping the kid’s interest in the center of all decisions.

            1. This sounds good!

         3. my ex-husband and I had a similar situation. After 2-3 years of his depression and emotional absence from our marriage, I was just too hurt to keep trying. We went to counseling for 8 months and, for me, the counseling just made things worse. I love him and care for him and want him to be happy, but I just didn’t see anyway to “fix” our marriage. I had tried so hard for so long that I just couldn’t try anymore. As noted by an earlier poster, sometimes counseling is a way for a couple to get a third party to declare it over (I think that was my case).

            But if both of you want to fix the marriage, than I think it is going to be worth trying to fix it. I would suggest finding a new counselor. It sounds totally unacceptable, to me, that you are fighting in the counseling session. The counselor should be helping you both to communicate, speak, listen, and move forward. If you do not feel that the sessions are helping you move forward, find someone who can help you move forward.

            1. Totally disagree that you shouldn’t be fighting in session — learning to fight constructively is critically important, and having a third party there to help you do that is very valuable. The idea that you can or should always communicate without fighting, and that doing so will move you forward, ignores human nature and tends to encourage the parties from dealing with the real issues.

         4. If you are in NYC, I have a counselor rec if you decide to see someone else. I have been pleasently surprised with him

         5. I’ve also done couples’ counseling twice: first for almost a year trying to save my first marriage, second with my current husband before we married. My experience was that “peacefully coexisting” between sessions/fights meant that we were trying to paper over serious issues that were not resolvable. And because neither of us wanted to divorce, things could actually be great when we were with other people or doing things … i.e. not really engaging with each other.

            If the two of you only agree 1/4 of the time that the counselor hit the nail on the head when you are discussing the problem, you either have a bad fit with your counselor or the issues may not be resolvable. I’d suggest asking — together — why the counselor thinks a break would be helpful. That would be good information to have. And I heartily second the suggestion that you each see someone individually to get some clarity about how you view the marriage.

            I would add that if neither of you feels respected or supported by the other (my reading of your description — I could be off base here), it will be very hard to feel romantic again. I’d suggest dropping that as an immediate goal and focusing on whether you can and how you could rebuild respect and partnership. The romantic bit could follow later.

            1. PS — I wish I had said this first, but major hugs to you! You’re doing something incredibly difficult and scary, which many women with young children (understandably) do not feel secure enough to do. It sounds like pursuing the truth is really important to you. And however your marriage turns out, that’s a great characteristic to build a life on, even though it’s often uncomfortable. You really will get through this, one way or the other, and you won’t always feel like this. As one who has been there, I promise this is true!! More hugs at the end here.

         6. Did you ever feel passionate about him? Did you ever have googly eyes for him? If so, according to my therapist, that is the start. She says when she sees people who never had that, there isn’t a lot she can do. (I see her for individual therapy, but she specializes in couples and divorce).

         7. I am the person who posted the other day about my parents, married 39 years, getting divorced. My parents did not have a happy marriage and my brother and I witnessed a lot of very unconstructive and terrible fighting. There wasn’t physical violence, but there were nasty comments, screaming and broken dishes; sometimes after a fight one parent would disappear without warning for several days with no explanation of where they were, or when they were coming back, etc. We would get up in the night and hear our parents yelling at each other at 3 in the morning and then in the morning we would all have to act like things were fine, with this horrible anger and tension hanging in the air. Also, when we were older, we became convenient receptacles for our parents’ complaining about their spouse (our other parent) which was not healthy either. Neither my brother, nor I, escaped unscathed. I ended up getting engaged at age 18 to a man 7 years older than me who was an abusive alcoholic – thankfully I didn’t end up getting married to him – in what I realize now was an attempt to get away from my family situation. My brother has had major problems with alcohol and drug abuse. It probably would have been better for my parents to have gotten divorced much earlier – the divorce wouldn’t have been easy but watching them scream and throw things at each other, and then later act like everything was fine, was not healthy. That exact same pattern you are talking about. Believe me, to your kids it doesn’t seem benign. It seems like a roller coaster and they never know whether they’re going to be up or down today.

            If you aren’t willing to divorce, I would say take a trial separation. If life gets better and emotionally easier for everyone, you have your answer about what to do about your marriage. I have a friend who finally threw in the towel with her husband after 20 years and two kids together and while her kids are upset, they are going to therapy and things are going to be OK. There is a worse thing for kids than their parents getting divorced – it’s seeing their parents stuck in a bad marriage where they fight all the time. All I can tell you is from my perspective, the tragedy of my family isn’t that my parents are divorcing, it’s that they didn’t divorce earlier. YMMV, and good luck to you. :)

   5. I haven’t been in your shoes, but my interpretation of what the counselor meant is that maybe you and your husband do need to cool off for a little while. Constantly picking at a scab won’t make it heal faster. However, it might be helpful for you (and your husband) to have solo sessions with a counselor as well (maybe this same one because she’s familiar with you both already, or a new one if you aren’t happy with her). Solo sessions may help you both work through your anger without taking it out on the other person.

      And, speaking as an adult whose parents are finally getting divorced after many years in an unhappy marriage, there’s no easy time to get a divorce. But that shouldn’t stop you if you end up having to go down that road. Kids are resilient. If you and your husband can keep it amicable, the kids might not entirely “get it” now, but they will subconsciously recognize that you’re both happier, and appreciate the example you’ve set for them when they’re adults.

      I’m sorry you’re going through this.

   6. We took a break from marital counseling, and things were better without constantly picking at our problems. I was starting to feel like the counselor just egged us on to fights, and we were better off without her. If we need to go back, I’ll find someone else. My husband and I ended up bonding over how much we hated going to counseling, and I think that was the only good thing about it.

   7. *hug* to you for dealing with this situation. I don’t have any marital advice, but I wanted to give the perspective of a child of divorce. I’m absolutely not advocating that you give up on trying to fix your marriage, and obviously I can’t speak specifically for your kids, either, but I want to reassure you that your kids will probably be fine even if your marriage ultimately isn’t. This is a long one, so stop here if that’s all you need. :)

      I was 12ish when my parents divorced, and I had two siblings 9ish and 6ish. I do remember being initially very shocked and upset about the divorce (I was a pretty bright kid, and I had no idea my parents were having marital problems), and I remember my little brother being upset for a year or two every time we left after spending time with my dad. But as someone pointed out above, kids are resiliant. I don’t think any of us ever thought it was “our fault” that our parents were splitting up. We went to a session with a counselor once, but I think she said “why are you here? they’re all fine” and we never went back. My parents shielded us from all of the divorce proceedings, and were always coridal to each other when we were around. They didn’t talk badly about each other in front of us. We moved to a smaller house, but stayed in the same schools. My dad stayed in the local area until we all graduated high school, and he’s always been around for everything important (performances, graduations, weddings, even some holidays). We’re all now happy, well-adjusted adults with good educations, good jobs, and healthy (as far as I know) relationships with both our parents and with our significant others. 15+ years later, my parents are on fairly friendly terms with each other, talk on the phone, and even carpool on multi-hour trips to visit my siblings and I on occasion.

      Do I wish my parents had stayed married? Hard to say. I think I actually saw more of my dad after the divorce. I think my parents were probably happier. Honestly, other than making holidays a diplomatic and logistical challenge (especially since my husband’s parents are also divorced and they all live in different parts of the country), I’m not sure it’s had too much of a lasting affect. The important thing is not that you remain married, but that you and your husband treat each other with respect in front of your kids and minimize the impact your relationship, whether married or otherwise, has on their lives. As long as kids have two loving parents who don’t openly hate each other, they will likely be just fine after a relatively short adjustment period.

      Good luck to you while you make some difficult decisions. I hope everything works out for the best!

      1. my siblings and ME. gah.

         1. Thank you thank you thank you. Why has “______ and I” in inappropriate contexts become the norm?

            Also, thanks for sharing your story. I just wanted to note that I really appreciate your correction, too.

            1. As someone who makes that mistake all the time (i’m also not a lawyer/don’t write all day, so possibly more prone to grammatical errors) … i forget when it’s appropriate to use and I (“John and I want to thank you for the gift”) vs. and me (“thank you for the gift you sent to John and me”). I guess I wasn’t paying close enough attention during English class! But I’m trying.

            2. It has become the norm because schools no longer teach Latin or any proper English grammar. Thus, no one knows that prepositions (with, by, from, in, between, etc) take the ablative case, which in English for the pronoun first person singular is “me.” This is the same reason that people knock on the door and say, “It’s me” — because they don’t know that the verb to be always takes the nominative (subject) case, not the accusative (direct object) case. So they should be saying, “It is I.”

               I could go on. Thanks to my former-Jesuit grade school Latin teacher, former Quaker high school Latin teacher, and my mother, whose immigrant parents apparently took assimilating to extreme lengths!

               As an aside to the poster who quoted her ESL boyfriend on the subject of engagement rings yesterday — hilarious. My fiance is also ESL/TOEFL and we are forever working on the “between you and ME (not I)” line. His kids, both of whom were born here but grew up in an ESL/TOEFL house until the divorce and then having me (direct object) in the house, constantly say “Me and Sally went to the store.” So I find myself channeling my mother and gently saying “Sally and I.” (For any first wives/mothers out there with stepmom issues: I do this at the direct request of their dad.)

            3. Thanks, LatinFreak. I’m going to email your succinct explanation to myself.

            4. When I’m unsure, I drop the other people from the phrase and see how it sounds — that usually works. For example, if I’m wondering whether “…and even carpool with my siblings and I on occasion…” is right, I mentally rephrase it as “…even carpool with I on occasion…” and it becomes obvious that I need “me.” Hope this quick and dirty solution helps!

            5. @Lizbet — this is a great test IF you were raised in a household that spoke proper English. I tried this test with my fiance and his kids a few times, and it didn’t work for them because they don’t have the ear we do for when something sounds right in English. But I agree, when I am in doubt, I use this test. Actually, now that I think about it, my public school second grade teacher, waaaayyy back in the mid-70s in an all-American suburb and well before I took any Latin, taught us this test. For her students, all of whom were living in educated, English-speaking households, it worked.

            6. @ LatinFreak: Count me in as a fellow high school classicist!
               My favorite case is the subjunctive. My favorite example in English? “I wish I WERE an Oscar Meyer weiner.”

               context for the less geeky: in this usage, thesubjunctive is an expression of something that is counterfactual/hypothetical/fanciful/etc. Thus, as you are not and cannot actually be a hot dog, ‘were’ is the correct usage for you aspiring to be a hot dog at the present moment as opposed to ‘was’ which would express that you wish that you had been a hot dog at some time in the past.

               ps. I hope this brings some levity to the OP, as I feel for her and wish her all the best.

            7. @Latin Freak — great point!

            8. I think it’s “hypercorrection”:

               Personal pronouns

               Jack Lynch, assistant professor of English at Rutgers University, claims that correction of “me and you” to “you and I” as subject leads people to “internalize the rule that ‘you and I’ is somehow more proper, and they end up using it in places where they shouldn’t – such as ‘he gave it to you and I’ when it should be ‘he gave it to you and me.'”[10]

               http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypercorrection

            9. @LadyEnginerd

               Yes – the subjunctive! Which also explains why Anthony Hopkins rightly asks the townsmen who are subsidizing his son’s bid for Congress in Legends of the Fall, “What do you want from my son, if he be elected?”

   8. I have some experience with couples counseling and divorce.

      I have done couples counseling twice. The first time was with a then very serious boyfriend; the second time was with my fiance of several years (waiting until his youngest graduates to marry). In both cases, I would say that the counseling led to the right result, but the experience was very different. With the former boyfriend and old therapist, it took a long time and never really felt like there was a clear conclusion. We saw her for about five months. In the end, of course, we split. Part of the reason it was murky was that he was not really committed to either being with me or stating clearly that he didn’t want to. So although he showed up for the sessions, they were more like nebulous discussions and less like practical what can we do conversations. Also not clear how experienced that therapist was in couples counseling. It clearly was the correct decision for us to split, but it only happened because I finally got to the point where it was too painful to keep slowly tugging on the bandaid.

      The second time I did couples counseling with my current partner. We also got to the correct result (being together), but it was a different experience. First, we both were entirely committed to being together if we possibly could. (Whereas with old boyfriend, we were there to see if he wanted to commit, with my current fiance we were there for practical advice to see how we could deal with the chaos that is his former wife without it tearing apart us or his kids with her.) Second, our therapist was extremely skilled in working on blended/step-family issues, which were exactly our issues. (In fact, I recently learned that she is the only therapist our local family court recommends for those issues.) So our sessions were very constructive and pro-active.

      I also have experience with divorce and kids. Although I don’t have kids myself, I have two stepkids and my parents were divorced when I was 10 and I have had three stepmoms and various step- and half-siblings since then. I absolutely believe that it is better for the kids to end an unhappy marriage than to stay in it. Kids KNOW. It will be tough for them in the beginning. (You can make it much easier by having a crystal clear parenting plan in place before you split. Google it. Any divorce professional who doesn’t create one that includes regular schedule, holidays, vacations and right of first refusal commits malpractice IMHO.) But in the end, they will be better off in ever possible way. They won’t be exposed to daily conflict. They will see two more healthy households. If you or your husband repartners with someone with whom you create a loving and stable household, they will have that role model. I could go on.

      I can’t tell you what to do. But I can say that you will know when you know what you have to do. In the meantime, it can be very painful and I’m sorry for that.

   9. Nothing to add, just so sorry.

   10. Have you tried Imago counseling? The premise is to help people see things from the others’ point of view and in the context of their past experiences. Since you seem to have such opposite take-aways from your sessions, maybe this would help. Also, Imago posits that people naturally seek out their opposites in some emotional areas, and it views this as a strength of relationships.

   11. I ended a 23-year marriage last year. We sought counseling in 17 of those years, with 3 different counselors. No, counseling didn’t save the marriage. But what it DID do was enable us to end our marriage with civility and dignity. It also helped me turn myself into an emotionally healthy person who could coach my children through the (two-year) separation and divorce.

       I will say that I felt ‘stuck’ through many years of counseling, because I went into counseling with the ‘divorce is not an option’ mindset. It wasn’t until I accepted divorce as an option, and communicated that to my XH, that he began to take me seriously and change his (emotionally abusive) behaviors. However, too little, too late.

       Please read “Too Good to Leave, Too Bad to Stay.” After FOUR YEARS of waking up every morning and deciding whether I could stick it out one more day, this was the book that clarified my thinking and gave me the courage to make my decision.

   12. Thank you to each and every one who took the time to respond. You have all given me a lot to think about and some excellent advice. I’m downloading the book “Too Good to Leave…” now. The title sounds just how I feel. I’m going to make an appointment with a counselor I’ve seen before (different from the marriage counselor, but he knows my husband and our background). Next I’ll figure out if there’s a marriage counselor who might be a better fit for us. Unfortunately, we live in a smaller-sized community, so there aren’t a lot of options, but there will be some at least.

       This is so incredibly painful, but I feel better having a plan. You ladies are terrific.

   13. It seems like this is already part of your decision, but I think (which may be an unpopular opinion), that once you have kids, you must work much, much harder at making things work (given that there is no abuse.) My parents divorced when I was 13 and it profoundly affected my life and my ability to have a healthy relationship. Even though my dad was still around, it is damaging to see that he no longer loved my mother–who I looked and acted just like…see where I am going with that….

       Anyways, I have now been married for 8 years, with 3 kids and would go to the end of the earth to prevent them from going through the same thing. *Hugs* as you make this incredibly difficult decision–I just think if it is at all salvageable, then try, try, try!!

   14. maybe give individual counseling a try instead? i personally found this more useful when i was having relationship problems — sort of “what’s the root of the issue”, yes, we had problems/I’d react to things/get upset, but for me, really taking the time to figure out why certain things upset me so much was really useful.

   15. If things don’t get better soon, do not stay together for the kids. My brother avoided divorce for a decade for the kids and everybody was miserable, including the kids. I think seeing fighting and even feeling tension between the parents is worse for kids than divorce.

5. Threadjack! I’d really appreciate the hivemind’s thoughts on this one:

   My husband and I graduated from law school in 2010. He’s been working in a non-legal position for a non-profit since then, and is afraid that if he stays with them too much longer, he’ll drift too far from the legal field and won’t ever get back into it and use his degree. He hasn’t been able to find a single legal position in all this time (we live in a pretty economically depressed town, and there are literally no jobs here – I’m working 90 minutes away myself) and he really loves non-profit/social services work. So – question #1 is: Does he quit the non-profit gig and start his own practice? There’s already been some great recent advice on this, so I’m really interested in thoughts on question #2: Would it be completely insane to try to start a *non-profit* practice so he could offer free and low-cost legal services?

   1. Maybe I’m missing something, but if he’s offering free services, where does he get the money for malpractice insurance, research costs, overhead etc? Is there no where in your town he can volunteer as a lawyer? Legal aid, public defender? Maybe in the town you are working in?

      1. Grants, private donations, and other sources of funding that are available to non-profits. Essentially, it would BE a legal aid organization. Our town doesn’t have one – the nearest is about an hour away, and people in our community are definitely underserved.

         1. Non-profit funding has been significantly reduced during the recession. Make sure he has funding secured before he decides to go this route. Most established legal aid agencies have faced significant cuts and I can’t really imagine that there will be funding available for your husband to open a new one.

            1. I would also think it would be hard for someone with no past legal experience to get funding in any situation, much less without supervision from an experienced lawyer.

   2. Move. Both of you should start looking for jobs outside of your economically depressed town and maybe even out of the state. A 90 minute commute is very long, and unless you absolutely love your job, both of you should seriously consider other options. There are legal jobs in other places….like Texas. Unless there is some major reason why you can’t move at this time (dying parent, etc) I would seriously consider this option.

      1. agree with this. the systemic problems you mention are not going to go away anytime soon, and as you get older and consider buying a house, starting a family etc, moving becomes harder to do .. not easier.

         1. The problem is, we already have a house and a family, and it already feels impossible to move. Thanks to the economy, the house is worth half of what we paid for it 6 years ago, and we still owe more than we could possibly sell it for. I have friends who have moved to bigger cities over the last two years, and none of them have been able to sell their homes here – one managed to find a renter, and the other two have the pleasure of making mortgage payments for houses they don’t live in, and the added joy of extra-high insurance premiums for the vacant properties. I’m not really up for that.

            1. Ah, I see. I’m sorry to hear that you’re dealing with this too.

               If you are 100% committed to staying in your town, and your husband seems to love non-profit/social work, the idea you describe would appear to be a wonderful marriage of his skills + his passions. It’s just that there is a lot of financial risk associated with that (and, I’m guessing, malpractice etc .. I’m not a lawyer but you obviously are, so assume you know about those risks.)

               How’s your job situation (aside from the commute), and can your income support your family if needed while he sets things up and gets it going? Unlikely that he’ll ever make big $ doing it, but if he really loves it, and your family and get by on your salary + whatever he makes, then it would seem like a risk worth taking.

               Good luck to you!

            2. Many states bars have pro-bono organizations, such as Mississippi’s Volunteer Lawyer Project. Other commentors are correct: Legal Services Corp. funding has been cut severely in the past and more cuts are predicted. I would guess there is about zero chance that a new nonprofit could get funding.

               Suggestion: your husband can sign up with the Bar to do pro bono legal services. He can get help from the Bar with legal issues as needed and get some legal experience (and exposure to the legal community) at the same time. It can lead to a paid legal job.

               Good luck. I also live in a severely depressed town but have a good job here. Starting out here now would be very difficult, so I can sympathize.

6. OK, ladies:

   LinkedIn Etiquette: GO.

   PS I am very, very social media savvy and my named Internet presence is slim-to-none. Willing to change that for personal branding IF necessary.

   1. I think LinkedIn is a great tool. Keep your profile professional and up-to-date. Use a photo and sprinkle key-words in your areas of interest so you come up in searches. Join some groups and see if they are of value to you (they aren’t to me, but it depends what you’re looking for). Whether or not you want to update your “status” and start conversations, etc. is up to you. When you meet someone new at work or at a conference, etc. and connect with them, I think it’s perfectly acceptable to later reach out to them on LinkedIn.

      LinkedIn No-Nos: sharing too much personal info, “cold-calling” people (e.g. inviting random people you don’t know to connect with you); pestering your contacts with excessive sales pitches; asking for favors but not returning them; lying on your profile (obviously) and otherwise abusing the system. The premise is that contacts of contacts make the strongest network, so it’s annoying when people abuse that premise by falsely claiming to be close to XYZ when they’re not. For that reason you do need to be careful whom you link to and who you don’t. Not as egregious, but still discouraged are people who set up accounts and never update them, so their profile is full of outdated, inaccurate info.

      Finally, LinkedinlabsDOTcom has some cool LinkedIn experimental features, resume builders, blogs on how best to use LinkedIn, and other things that are worth checking out.

      1. Thanks for that. I’ve been contacted by someone I don’t know and who is not related professionally in any sense. I’ve just been ignoring the request, but just recently got a message from him that he’s wants to include me in his professional contacts. I’m in public relations and marketing, his field is addiction recovery and counseling. No thanks and buh-bye!

   2. This might not be quite what you’re looking for, but as a fellow social media fiend I found it to be interesting- http://blog.hubspot.com/blog/tabid/6307/bid/23454/The-Ultimate-Cheat-Sheet-for-Mastering-LinkedIn.aspx

      1. It’s perfect, thank you! The website looks useful for several other projects as well…

   3. I have a related question: I got a list from my law school/master’s program of people with my same dual degree who are working in my city, and I’m trying to use the list to set up some informational interviews. Unfortunately, there’s no email or contact info for most of the people on the list, but I can find them easily on LinkedIn. Does anyone have suggestions for getting in touch with these people without breaking the “no cold-calling” rule? I’d think a lot of these people would be happy to talk with me, but I don’t want to be rude…

      1. While linkedin does discourage sending invitations to connect to people that you don’t know, plenty of people do it anyway (and I’ll admit to doing it myself-with no negative consequences). When you look at an individual’s profile, you may be able to see what linkedin groups they belong to. If any of the groups are of interest to you, join them and you will be able to send a message directly to those whose groups you are a member of without sending them an invitation to connect. Just professionally and politely ask them if they could take some time out of their busy schedule to chat with you. You’d be surprised at how many people will be willing to speak with you and the few who refuse—don’t take it personally. Also see if any of the people you are wanting to contact are second degree connections and request an introduction from your first degree connections

         After your informational interviews, be sure to send a thank you email, along with an invitation to connect.

      2. LinkedIn has different ways of allowing you to communicate with someone. If someone is not one of your contacts, but is in your ‘network’ to the 2nd or 3rd degree or so (e.g. you know people in common), you can get your mutual friends to introduce you via LinkedIn.

         If someone is completely out of your network – as most of the people you’re looking at probably are – you can send them a message via LinkedIn mail, whereby they see the message next time they log into LinkedIn (or, they get notified separately, if they’re set up to do so). It does not give you their email address or let you see any more info about them, until they decide they want to give you that access.

         The “no cold calling” rule applies, IMO, to people who actually try and join your network of contacts when they don’t know you, as opposed to just sending you a message via LinkedIn mail. The difference is that if they join your network, they suddenly have indirect access to all YOUR contacts, which seems inappropriate when you don’t know them in the first place. (Headhunters and salespeople are probably the biggest offenders here, as they are looking for leads.)

         So the bottom line is – send them a note via LinkedIn mail, and make it a nicely worded “love to talk with you about your career” type of thing. Don’t try and join their network unless you really hit it off and build a relationship beyond that note.

         And finally, LinkedIn mail can get annoying too, when you’re getting virtually spammed from the aforementioned salespeople and recruiters who clearly sent the same note to 1000 other people — but this will not be the case for you.

         (OK one more point – why did your school bother sending you a list of potential contacts names without any actual contact info? How did they get those names, and do those people know that their names are being passed around for this purpose? Seems odd, but .. w/e) Good luck!

         1. You have to be a paying member of linkedin in order to use their LinkedIn Mail service. Unless you know a way around it?

   4. A true linkedin story:

      I work at a firm with clients who have in-house counsel who are not the easiest to work with (small budgets, big demands, and, looking in from the outside, an unhealthy office culture). They constantly complain about us (as individual attorneys so the “team” has lots of turn-over, including adding people back in who “really weren’t so bad”), won’t fire us, and, to not destroy any bridges, we won’t fire them. It’s a strained relationship at best.

      Their HR contacted me via linkedin asking if I wanted to join the in-house team! I politely replied “no thank you” but I really wanted to say “oh h*ll no”. I forwarded the message to the partner and we had a good laugh.

      Moral of the story: HR shouldn’t be cold-calling via linked in if they really want to target someone who already has ties to the company.

   5. Differing opinion: Haaaaate LinkedIn. Consider it Stalker-Bait.

      1. I’m of the same mind. I don’t believe that joining those online networks is going to create all kinds of wonderful opportunities. You’re exposing yourself to God knows who. I have a very limited account and I’m sorry I created even that.

         1. I don’t like having to present myself as if I’m nothing but a walking resume for the edification of millions.

         2. You don’t “believe” that it will create opportunities, but I can tell you it HAS created opportunities for me. I am always amazed about how, on Corporette, people are experts on how things they’ve never tried absolutely cannot work for anyone, ever. It reminds me of a South Park episode where someone says “Having never tried it, I can say with absolute certainty it has nothing to offer anyone!”

            1. This!

7. I like the shape of this skirt but worry that it would be way too tight.

   1. i like it as well, but the styling as presented makes it look a little too sexy. if you click on the link they have another fit offered “Curve?” which I didn’t look into but potentially that’s a more generous/conservative fit.

      also, i think the black skirt/white shirt combo in general is kind of classic, clean and reliable. maybe a little boring, but you can always add a scarf or jewelry on top. it will work in every professional situation, and to be honest, there are some days when i wake up and don’t really have the energy to dress more creatively.

      1. “Curve” is the plus size division of ASOS.

      2. I totally agree. I love classics and neutrals with fun accessories. It’s also nice to see a skirt that is a good length and doesn’t start all the way at the ribcage or all the way down on the hips. It seems like a really nice mid point.

8. Morning! I was wondering – has anyone tried flats from Delman? Gilt has some on sale today and I wanted to know if they are worth the price tag.

   1. In my experience the nappa ones wear out quickly – the patent ones hold up much better.

9. Anyone have a current coupon code for ASOS? I found a couple for 10% off or 20% off, but they aren’t valid anymore.

   1. SAVE24 worked this morning

      1. Thanks a bunch!

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