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Updated: Feb 29, 2024 375 Comments · by

Tuesday’s Workwear Report: Acclaimed Stretch Slim Pintuck City Pants

The Personal Shopper (TPS)

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Our daily workwear reports suggest one piece of work-appropriate attire in a range of prices.

I had noticed these pants a few times over at Nordstrom because Lafayette 148 New York was always a reader favorite for trousers back in the day, but I never quite got around to posting them. Color me surprised to see they're on the best-seller list at Bloomingdale's — and in a ton more colors, including this lovely light gray. They're available in regular and plus sizes (plus sizes have limited colors, alas) at both Bloomingdale's and Nordstrom for $238-$448. Acclaimed Stretch Slim Pintuck City Pants

Looking for something similar but more affordable? Here was our recent roundup of the best pants for work, with tons of great options under $150.

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Comments

  1. anon

    Let’s have some fun: I have a birthday coming up and need some present ideas for myself ;)
    I have a massage booked so far. What are some things on your wish list? Budget is flexible up to around $400.

      • Anon

        Yesssssss. I have been eager to try one of the local “they come to you” car detailing places. Some of them even feature eco-friendly cleaning products.

        • emeralds

          Can confirm that these are awesome. I’m not the kind of person who cares about getting my car detailed, but I had a potluck chili/slamming brakes incident that was above my skill level to resolve. They worked actual magic in the parking lot of my office–my car had never been so clean. (And has never been again, alas.)

      • Pep

        +1
        Having my car professionally detailed/cleaned is so lovely. Especially if I’m feeling like my life is in a state of disarray, it’s nice to have that little oasis of cleanliness and order for my commute.

      • westernisland

        similarly, my FIL got me a pre-paid wash card to our local car wash – 6 full service washes – for christmas. Not as intense as a professional detail but perfect for once a month. i think this will be my new thing i ask for every year now.

      • Equestrian attorney

        warning – I did this for my birthday (the class pass thing) and ended up loving it and going regularly (I’m in great shape now, but my wallet not so much).

        • Worry about yourself

          F’real, once you start going to the fancy places, it’s hard to go back to the regular gym or less fancypants studios. I made a mistake trying SoulCycle . . .

    • Cat

      A pretty framed map of our favorite vacation destination.
      Roundtrip flight to visit someone special, or a weekend getaway in a town nearby (so no flight costs, perhaps a cute Airbnb?)
      A new gorgeous kitchen faucet (perhaps not the most romantic of ideas, but still…..those things are expensive!)

    • Junior Associate

      – Weekend travel to a nearby seaside destination (or nearby destination of your choice) at a nice hotel.
      – Cute living/kitchen stuff from Alessi / Pylones
      – Giant teddy bear I’ve wanted since age 5 (okay I want someone else to get it for me)
      – Baking/cooking class pass

  2. Stoves

    I have a 5-year old 30″ gas stove with double ovens (small one is where a broiler drawer is on my parents’ stove). I love having two — very helpful when I host holidays and I roast / braise a lot, so I tie up one oven at one temp and then it’s nice to have another oven for things that need another temp.

    I am redoing my kitchen — I can slot in a 36″ stove, but have found that they generally do not have double ovens as an option. 30″ do and 48″. Our configuation is not dual-wall-oven friendly (and I have to confess I’ve never seen a kitchen with cooktop / double-ovens that I like; and I really like being able to take roasting pants / hot trays out of the oven and lay them on unused burners). And it’s nice to just be in one place in the kitchen. Our architect thinks that a 48″ stove is overkill, but it may just be the visual overkill we actually need (OTOH, the 30″ one does the job but would look too small in the redone kitchen). FWIW, hood is planned to be 48″.

    WWYD?

    And what do I do with a 5 year old gas stove? I don’t want sketchy craigslist people coming into my house.

  3. Anon

    Has anyone tried Lunya sleepwear? I’m particularity looking at the “Restore” line. Feedback? Worth the $$? (I know, it’s super expensive for sleepwear but it would be a birthday splurge…but I don’t want to do that if it is not as great as they make it sound). Thanks!

    • The original Scarlett

      I returned it, struck me as old navy quality, definitely not worth it.

    • Anon

      Different view–ordered and kept the PJs. They definitely are a higher quality fabric and construction than most brands (with due respect, not Old Navy quality). They wash up beautifully, hold their shape, no pilling or stretching out. I’m a PJs snob and these seem at about the same quality as Hanro (and about the same price). Whether it’s worth it to you is hard to say but I like them.

      • Anon

        OP here: thank you both! Most of my current sleepwear is from mid-range brands, and it’s the losing shape over time that gets to me. Maybe I’ll give it a go. Never heard of Hanro, maybe I’ll check that out too.

  4. Anon

    What are y’all’s evening routines dinner to bed, especially if you don’t have kids and do some exercise? Trying to make some healthy changes in my life and wondering if people have success fitting in exercise between dinner and bed. TIA!

    • anon

      Not what you asked, but I highly recommend exercising in the morning or at least earlier in the day. When I get into routines that involve exercising in the evenings I find my quality (and often quantity) of sleep suffers. My evening routine involves reading and a cup of tea, or going for a walk around sunset if I want to be a bit more mobile.

      • Anonymous

        +1 I always try to workout in the morning or at lunch for this reason and so that my evenings are actually relaxing

      • Anon

        LOL I get up for work at 4:45. If I had to get up earlier to work out, I may as well quit sleep altogether.

        I try to fit a walk in at lunch, weather permitting, but anything other than evening exercise is just not feasible for me.

      • Flats Only

        I have found the opposite. I think it just depends on the person. If I exercise before bed for 1/2 hour, then shower and read a bit I fall asleep quickly and wake up refreshed. If I exercise in the morning I eat EVERYTHING I SEE all day long, and am tired and cranky.

        • anne-on

          +1, I cannot work out in the morning during the week or I just need a nap and ALL the snacks. Working out at night is a great anxiety/stress release for me and actually helps loads with my sleep (and sets a hard ‘no work’ time and space for me mentally).

        • Anon

          Exactly–it depends on the person. I’ve been an evening-workout person for 30+ years and it’s worked fine for me. You do you.

    • anne-on

      I usually prep dinner around 5, walk out the door to a 5:30 gym class (which is literally 8 minutes away) am back home around 6:45, take a super fast shower and then put my son to bed around 7:15. Late/light dinner on gym nights around 7:45/8, and then read or watch TV for a bit before finishing up my nighttime routine (skincare, dry hair, lay out clothes for the next day, skim through work emails) and usually in bed for 9:45/10. Husband handles evening dog duties (walk, small scoop of food, cuddles, then into crate). I try to go to the gym 2 weeknights and one weekend day but it varies based on work/family needs and business travel.

    • BB

      Can you exercise before dinner? I find that it’s really hard to go to the gym after dinner because by the time I digest the food, it’s late and I’m sleepy. I now work out in the mornings, but I used to come home, prep dinner, put it on to cook, go to the gym for the 20-40 minutes it takes to cook, then eat dinner.

      • Worry about yourself

        Same here. I go straight to the studio for class after work, then home for a shower and dinner. It might mean my boyfriend gets his own dinner early and I eat a late dinner when I get home, but it works for both of us!

        When I don’t work out, I sometimes do a plank when we’re watching TV, or some squats in the kitchen while making dinner.

    • Lana Del Raygun

      I get home around 6 and throw in some laundry, then hang out with my baby and chat with my husband. We tend to eat between 7 and 8, so I’ll fill up that time with random chores and (too much) social media. I exercise after dinner (for me, that means 30 minutes’ worth of postpartum PT) and then try to pick out my outfit for the next day.

      TBH this routine does not work very well because we don’t have a good habit of after-dinner cleanup, so we’re trying to step up our game there. And I’m planning to do my exercises earlier, while the laundry’s running and LO sits in her bouncy chair and watches me.

    • Houda

      The key for me is to have a frozen ready dinner or one of those rice pouches that are microwaved in 2 min.
      If I have a light office day: Go to gym around 6:30 PM, same building as the office – shower at the gym – go home – arrive at 8:20ish heat a meal prepped meal – eat – night time skincare routine – Golden latte while reading a book – brush teeth – sleep
      If I am crunched on time but still want to go to gym, I don’t shower at the gym and instead will shower at home while my meal is thawing

    • Anonymous

      I’m interested in the responses. It’d be hard to do a vigorous workout, or even somethings bendy like yoga, right after a meal. My parents and I used to take a walk in the evenings after dinner though. It was a nice routine that I really miss.

      I’m not sure if this is what you’re looking for in terms of healthy habits – I have an extended wind down before bed. I’ve had sleep issues my whole life. Carving out an hour before bed to be peaceful and centered has improved my quality and quantity of sleep (and mental health) immensely.

      • Anon

        I’d love to know more about what you do in that hour. I’m suffering from insomnia and need to do something about it!

    • Skipper

      I get home around 530, go for a run or to the gym for about an hour, and shower.I spend about half an hour making dinner, eat said dinner, clean up the kitchen, then knit while watching appalling Netflix. If it’s my husband’s night to cook, I take a bubble bath instead of a shower while he does the cooking.

      • Skipper

        The last time I ate before working out was in high school when I was taking dance classes every single day. If I’m going to a class or have a long run that’s going to make dinner very late, I tend to eat a big snack around 430, get home, workout, and have another big snack when I’m done around 8 or 830. I confess the second big snack tends to be something like cheese, wine, and olives.

    • Anonymous

      I go home, have a quick dinner, and head back out to a dance class most nights! Leave work at 6:30, home 7:30, heat dinner up by 7:45, leave at 8:15 for an 8:30 class, get home at 9:30 or 10, read for a bit, do my lotion routine, and go to bed. When the weather is nice I walk after dinner, and in summer I usually swim.

    • CPA Lady

      This isn’t “going to the gym” kind of exercise, but I have been going for walks after dinner, or working in the yard, like mowing my yard with a push mower or weeding flower beds– it seems like that must count as exercise, right? It’s at least better than sitting on the couch watching TV. The only way I can for real work out after dinner is when I go to the Y at 7 p.m. or so and run on the treadmill, after racing home and eating a light dinner by 5:30. But even then I feel pretty ill and can’t really push myself as hard as I would like.

    • Anonymous

      Arrive home 6pm, dinner 6:30pm, clean up/load of laundry, yoga or exercise class at local community centre (7:30-8:30, or 8pm-9:15pm (yoga)) – alternate between deep water fitness, yoga, zumba. Come home, shower, relax 1 hour and bed about 11pm.

    • Anon

      I’m a big meal prepper so I don’t have too much to do to get dinner on the table during the week. I get home anywhere from 5:30-7 depending on the day, go to the gym for 45-60 minutes, spend 20ish minutes getting food on the table, 30 eating/cleaning, then read/social media/tv/crossword puzzle until bed. I’m usually hungry by the time I get home from work, so I snack on fruit with almond butter, hard boiled eggs, or nuts before the gym.

      I save all time consuming chores (laundry, cleaning the kitchen/bathroom, most cooking, and lunch prep) on the weekends, so even on the days I get home on the later side, I’m still good to work out.

    • Curly

      I work out before dinner and signed up for a workout class that’s across the street from my office to help with that. If I know I’ve got something after work, I will workout in the morning. But if I don’t have an event after work, I’ll change at the office and run across the street for my workout, which lasts an hour. Go home and take a shower and make an easy dinner that takes 30 mins or less. Sometimes I’ll grab something from a restaurant down the street on my way home. I’ll usually take about 15 mins after dinner to clean up the kitchen and bathroom and put away items that have migrated from their homes. After I clean up, I either watch tv or play tetris for about an hour, then tea and read until I fall asleep.

    • cat socks

      I sometimes exercise in the evening before dinner. I usually do Fitness Blender workouts using the TV in the basement. The key for me is to get changed out of my workout clothes and downstairs before I have time to crash on the couch. Also, I try to snack on something at work in the afternoon so I don’t come home hungry and wanting to snack.

    • Anonymous

      If I workout in the evening, it is usually lifting and not cardio. My routine would be this: Pick kiddo up from preschool around 4:15, dinner at 5:30, family time/cleanup/etc after, leave kiddo’s room for bedtime around 7:15-7:30, change, and head to the gym to lift. Home by 9. My cardio is running, which I do in the morning except for sometimes during a random weekend nap time in the early afternoon.

    • cbackson

      Quick snack when I get home, then I feed the dog dinner and take him for his constitutional, which is about 30 minutes. Then I ride my bike for about an hour to 90 minutes. After that, I make dinner – usually Blue Apron or something else that’s fast. I have some tricks for speeding up the Blue Apron recipes so they truly only take 20 minutes of my attention (for example, cooking the grains in a rice cooker while I’m riding, skipping all garnishes, and sometimes combining steps, like if they want some veggies stir-fried and some roasted, I’ll roast them all and it’s usually fine). I do a bit of house tidying and answer some leftover work email,then it’s bedtime walk for the pupster and a bit of reading in bed before I go to sleep.

      If I can leave early, I ride outside and try to be turning out the lights by 10:30. If I’m leaving work later, I’ll ride my bike trainer and I’m usually lights out at 11:30.

    • Gail the Goldfish

      I go to the gym after dinner, like 9:30 or 10 pm. It’s awesome because it’s the one time of day the gym is actually pretty empty. I know a lot of people don’t like working out that late because then they have trouble sleeping, but it’s never been an issue for me, so if it works for you, I highly recommend it. I’m a night owl and pretty much never go to bed before midnight anyway. Sometimes I’ll leave work early and catch at 5:30 or 6 class at the gym and eat dinner when I get home around 8. My gym has almost no classes that start after 6:30, unfortunately (but I recognize most of the world doesn’t work on my nightowl schedule)

      • NOLA

        That’s what a friend of mine does. She goes really late, but her gym is open 24 hrs. When she works out with her trainer, she goes earlier in the day. For me, I go right after work. It’s a good break between work and home. I sometimes get home pretty late (7:30 or so) and still have to shower and eat, but I am usually having a salad with chicken, so it’s something I can throw together very quickly.

    • ATL rette

      I work out directly after work if I’m doing something more high intensity, Iike running or weights. If I’m doing hot yoga, I do a later class so I can come home, shower and go to bed. I never eat dinner beforehand, either a large lunch + snack around 4:30 or a heavy-ish snack post-work out while I’m waiting for my shower to heat up.

    • Anon

      If working out after work, I will go to a 5:45 or 6 pm workout class near my office or I’ll do some strength training in my office building gym. Then I’ll get home around 7:30, eat dinner around 8, putter around for a while, and then go to bed around 10:30/11.

    • Anon

      I have a toddler, so not sure how useful this is. But I get home around 5:30, eat dinner ASAP (DH works at home most days and usually has dinner well underway, if not done, by the time I get home), we’re done with dinner and clean-up around 6-6:30, then we do our daughter’s bedtime routine. She goes down around 7:30-8 and then most days I go to the gym for about half an hour. Nothing too intense (mostly elliptical or walking on the treadmill at a steep incline), but I have no problem being relaxed enough for a 10:30-11ish bedtime.
      I absolutely can’t work out before dinner, I’m ravenous by 6 pm no matter how much I eat during the day.

    • Senior Attorney

      I have a very hard time leaving the house once I’m home, so I do my workout on the way home from work. Work out at 5:30 on M-W and 6 on T-Th, on Fridays generally take a walk when I get home. (Yes I have a lovely 9-5 job. It’s amazing.) Cook dinner after.

    • Rainbow Hair

      I have two different schedules for working out. I’ve stuck with this current gym/class situation because it’s close to my house and the classes are short but intense, so I can actually get some endorphins in without sacrificing my whole evening/kid time.

      “Early” = get home from work around 5:40, change into gym clothes, eat something tiny, get to gym by 6:00, home by 6:40ish, eat now-cold dinner (husband cooks but it’s usually ready around 6), play with kid, bedtime stuff for her, shower, whatever evening stuff I want to do (sewing, cleaning, whatever).

      “Late” = get home from work around 5:40, change into gym clothes, eat dinner at 6, play with kid for an hour, do bedtime stuff with kid, head to gym for 8:00 class, home by 8:40ish, shower, TV, bed.

      I prefer “early” for having the whole evening (after Kiddo is in bed) to squander as I please, but I prefer “late” for more time with Kiddo.

    • Anon

      Interestingly, I found doing intermittent fasting (IF) actually made working out after work much easier. Pre-IF, I would have breakfast, then lunch, then I’d need to eat another light meal in the later afternoon before working out and that would tide me over til dinner at 7:30/8 pm. It’s tough because working out after work ends up pushing dinner later.

      Now, I have my first meal at lunch, then a light meal around 4:30, work out at 6, dinner at 8.

  5. Writing Sample

    For those of you who are corporate lawyers, especially in-house, what do you do when asked for a writing sample? I’m starting to apply for government jobs and they all ask for one. I don’t write anything in my job that would be traditionally used as a writing sample. The only thing I’ve drafted in the last few years are contract templates (NDAs, Terms and Conditions, etc.) which I can’t imagine would be helpful. My law school writing sample is 7 years old and probably not very good. I don’t have access to anything I wrote at my previous firm but I don’t think it would be great either because it was all heavily edited by others.

      • Anonymous

        A short one that’s about 4 years old and I guess would be better than nothing.

    • Anon

      You can create one. Just like you did in law school, come up with a mock scenario and brief it. Explain in your cover letter that you did not have an appropriate sample from you current job so you researched and briefed x issue assuming Y fact pattern.

    • Triangle Pose

      Honestly if you’re a transactional in-house or product counsel, a writing sample is unecessary and unhelpful. At this level in my career I’d just explain that I don’t have one that would be useful.

  6. PJ Pants Hunt

    I am in search of some PJ pants. I’m tired of sleeping in my Old Nay PJ pants that basically work their way up my legs and end up bunched up like Bermuda shorts by the time i wake up. We did the cutsey family Christmas matching PJs thing this year and I initially loved the Hannah Anderson tapered leg knit PJ pants because they stayed down my leg overnight, but after just one wear they stretch out beyond recognition.

    Is there another brand that has a tapered leg like I’m describing? I’ve never spent any real money on PJs but but I’m annoyed enough with the bunching up to try something new.

    • anon

      It sounds like you need cotton (or other non-workout material) leggings. I got a pair for $7 at H&M that I sleep in and they’re comfortable.

    • anne-on

      Sounds like joggers or comfy leggings are what you’re looking for. I sleep in the HUE wide waistband ones on occassion and they’re very comfy. I also regularly move older workout pants to sleep pants once they’re more pilled/stretched out/etc. than I’d like.

      • cat socks

        Same here. I hate sleeping in pants due to the bunching issue. I wear a big t-shirt or shorts and a t-shirt. Extra blankets for warmth.

    • Vicky Austin

      I sleep in cheapo Forever 21 leggings most of the time. H&M made my favorite sleep shorts, so I second the recommendation to look there.

    • Panda Bear

      I tuck my PJ pant legs into my socks to prevent bunching. Works for me since my feet are almost always cold, but if you don’t want to wear socks to bed, then I agree with others that a soft cottony legging, or shorts, are the way to go.

    • Anon

      I wear drape jogger pants from Uniqlo. They’re light and airy, and have elastic at the ankles so they don’t ride up.

    • Inspired by Hermione

      I wear joggers. Uniqlo has some in varying fabric types. I have some from Gap a few years ago they may still have.

    • Eager Beaver

      I used to have the same problem, and I started sleeping in Soma Cool Nights sleep shirts while pregnant. I can never go back. They are my holy grail.

    • rosie

      I have some pants from Soma that are tapered without being tight (and generally super soft). Also have a pair of jogger-style pants from Target, but they are rouched on the side of the ankle instead of cuffed.

    • Ribena (formerly Hermione)

      I have some from GAP a few years ago that essentially look like very thick leggings/ narrow jogging bottoms. They’re super comfortable. For me the key is a deep ribbed cuff at the bottom of the leg.

    • Beebo Brinker

      I have joggers from the gap in their modal jersey knit. They are tapered, super soft, and on sale today. I have a pair from at least two years ago (maybe 3?) and they are going strong with no signs of stretching out. The fabric is thin and not very warm – I consider them my spring/summer pjs.

  7. Aphasia ideas?

    Anyone have experience with a parent who sustained aphasia after a stroke? We are not in the same area, but I wonder what adaptive things might help? Also has the right side/arm/hand weaknesses.l Is speaking a bit, says she cannot read texts on phone now, cannot/will not type, so communication over long distance is going to be what?

    I looked at post stroke clothing, but they all seem to rely on patterns for aides to assist with dressing, not dressing on her own. She apparently is capable for that.

    Really no discharge information forthcoming from rehab as she consistently refused speech as well as ot/pt.

    Have enlarged some grocery shopping lists for those poor souls who will try to help her. She’s never been gracious, and now is most unhappy as well.

    TIA

    • Anonymous

      Is the stroke pretty recent? My mother has suffered several strokes. The first one was probably the worst. She had weakness on one side, affected speech, damage to her esophagus among other things.
      I’m hopeful for your sake and your mother’s that it was perhaps recent; it can take awhile for the consequences of the stroke to sink in and for her to realize what she needs to do to care for herself. My mother’s strokes were related to diabetes, poor health, and a sedentary lifestyle, so it was difficult for her to accept that she needed to work at getting her facilities back. I won’t say her lifestyle completely changed, but the desire to communicate and be self-sufficient was enough to motivate her to work at her OT/PT until she was able to go home.
      If my mother’s cases are any example, she should get her voice back over time. My mother had a fairly serious stroke last November and took a few days to get any words back at all. By three weeks she was able to communicate most of her ideas, if she struggled to come up with words frequently. Today, I’d say her speech and recall is about where it was before that particular stroke.
      Is FaceTime an option for communicating with your mother? I also found it useful to have a baseline relationship with someone at her rehab facility who I speak to and offer advice about her personality and needs.
      Hugs to you!

      • Aphasia ideas?

        Thanks for encouragement. IT’s been nearly two months now … she has been declared competent and is discharged home … getting hospice underway just to have a more clear approach to her next events. Her DNR papers have never been “good” for the past 15 years … they say 3 docs have to agree. She refuses to change them and her friends are all POA. Her speech is erratic at best and she’s tired and loses memory when working so hard to find the next word or idea. Face Time is a great idea, thank you! In the long run she’s tired of living so there is no motivation other than to go home and be left alone in her apartment…

        • Anon at 10:06

          My sympathies. I had a challenging relationship with my mother. She struggled with depression her whole life and until I had my daughter a couple years ago, “tired of living” definitely summarized her philosophy. She’s been thinking she’s going to die “in a couple years” for almost 20 years now. I spent so much of my life trying to get out from under her influence that it’s easier for me to say this, but I’ve kind of left a lot of my mom’s decisions about her treatment and so on up to her, although I’ve always tried to be there when she’s had health problems and give her advice when she asks for it. (That is to say is I let her lead herself but I support her decisions, especially those that will lead to better health outcomes for her.) That said, I also have an advantage that you don’t; my mother remarried about ten years ago and her husband helps with a lot her day-to-day needs.
          It sounds like you’re doing everything you can. I wish you and your mother the best.

    • Anon

      Good luck to you both! Stroke symptoms and recovery are so dependent on the side of the brain affected and severity of the stroke. But I’m coming on here to say that good rehab can make a huge difference. My SIL has a severe stroke at 40 and worked very hard to successfully regain most of her ability in walking and affected arm/hand but it was very difficult. We used a lot of new rehab technology. I would advise you to research all you can from American Stroke Assoc, etc. obviously age and motivation played a role for my SIL. But the brain can repurpose different areas to learn to control what the damaged areas used to.
      SIL only had temporary aphasia, I think that was due to the side of brain affected, so sorry I don’t have specific advice for that. Best wishes to you both

    • anon

      I’ve dealt more with dementia and memory loss than aphasia, but I have a little experience as both hired help and family. It’s hard, really hard. If she is willing to talk, try to be patient and follow the train of thought even if you lose the details. For example, my grandpa calls every female politician or newscaster, “that skinny gal,” and instead of trying to guess a name, I usually just ask, “uh-huh? what did she say?” It’s more about keeping a presence and social connection than conveying information.

      Practical tips, set her up with action-packed movies instead of subtitled foreign films. If you do write to her, make it something semi-permanent like a holiday card that she can keep on the mantle and puzzle through slowly, come back to repeatedly, and be reminded that you wrote to her just by seeing the colorful picture. Also, if she’s as cantankerous as your posts imply, it would be considerate to set it up so the helpers who visit get paid something even if she throws them out before they get the groceries put away ;)–they’ve already had to arrange their schedule to accommodate her.

      • Anonymous

        My experience is also with dementia, not a stroke, but I second the suggestion to be patient and just let her say what she’s going to say. If she is not interested in talking, don’t ask her a zillion questions that will only frustrate her. Just tell her some interesting or funny or even mundane details about what’s going on with you, even if she doesn’t quite follow.

        • Inspired by Hermione

          This works with my grandma with dementia as well. “This is a picture of my dog. This is a picture of my dog. This is a picture of my friends. This is a picture of my dog. We went to the park that day and he loved playing in the grass. This is a picture of me and the dog at the park.” Mundane but she likes it so ??‍♀️

    • Bette

      I’m sorry for both you and your mother.

      I would strongly suggest getting her in speach and occupational therapy ASAP. Aphasia and mobility can both improve with therapy. I would also suggest a home health aid to check in on her regularly.

      For the communication maybe get her an echo or like for several rooms in her house so she can text/email you from that?

      I would also make sure that her iphone is set up with all of the mobility features turned on.

      Good luck!

  8. Anon

    Thinking about yesterday’s thread about dating a guy with a hairstyle you didn’t like… would that change for something like an earring? Or a prominent tattoo?

    I was surprised at the reactions yesterday because it’s like… if you can’t be choosy in who you date, what’s the point? Why can’t you decide a certain look isn’t for you?

    • Anonymous

      You can always be choosy! I don’t think that is what people were saying. For me, I can excuse a lot of appearance stuff if I like a person, and liking a person makes them attractive to me. If that’s not her, then cool she won’t even try. But dating is hard and finding someone is hard, so I think it’s at least worth a glass of wine, especially when it’s afriend referral.

    • Anonymous

      Of course you can be choosy. But you may miss out if you make deal breakers out of things that are superficial and highly changeable. It is pretty normal for couples’ styles to converge over time. Many people who make fashion statements also change their appearance much more frequently than people who don’t. So it feels a little silly to make a deal breaker out of a haircut that may be different in three weeks’ time and which may have been the advice of a stylist rather than a deliberate and thoughtful choice on the part of the person wearing it.

      But I think, in general, there are people who generally prefer to date among their own, whatever that means to them, and people who are looking for something different. I think the latter are more confused by deal breakers that mostly just signal a different cultural background.

    • Anonymous

      I was also surprised by the responses. I really don’t understand demonizing women for being too “picky”. As if slovenly men are entitled to our attention and we’re horrible for denying them their due. A woman can choose to spend time with, or not spend time with, whomever she likes for whatever reason she likes. She doesn’t owe her time to anyone.

      • Anonymous

        It’s not like the choices are slovenly or GQ. Most guys are somewhere on a spectum. My DH isn’t the most stylish guy because fashion isn’t his thing. But also means that he’s happy enough to wear whatever new dress shirt I’ve given him to replace a dated one. Except his 501s – but luckily the one fashion choice he’s stubborn out is a classic. But again, I suggested a darker wash and he went with it. If I got stuck on his fashion, I would have missed out on a great guy who prioritizes family time and supports my career at every turn.

    • Anonymous

      I think that it is a bit . . . consummerist?

      My sense is that you should actually meet the person (and awesome if you can do at a party / HH / etc vs an actual date) and see if there is a spark. If not, that’s fine.

      I’m used to having specs for things like home improvement projects (which I don’t confuse with my dating life).

      • Anonymous

        Yesterday’s OP did meet the guy in person at a party. She wasn’t into him.

    • Anon

      “I was surprised at the reactions yesterday because it’s like… if you can’t be choosy in who you date, what’s the point? Why can’t you decide a certain look isn’t for you?”

      You can choose any criteria you want in whom you date. The problem is that excluding “unacceptable” men does not mean that better men magically pop up.

      If you would rather be single than date a guy with a bad hairstyle, then don’t date the guy with a bad hairstyle. But understand that those are your choices.

      • Anonymous

        I really don’t understand this line of thinking. Why should I waste my limited time and energy on guys I’m not that into? I could be doing literally anything else with that time – maybe meeting other guys, but maybe just, y’know, living my life. Also, I don’t understand wielding singleness like it’s a threat. Oh no! I might be single if I don’t lock down this random bad hair dude! The horror! In fact, you’re more likely to remain single – and unhappily single at that – if you’re wasting your time on mediocre guys who are never going to be a good fit for you.

          • anon

            The implication by saying “but understand that those are your choices” is that women make the choice to not date men with undesirable qualities and therefore they can’t complain or don’t deserve empathy about being single, and you know it. That’s what’s irritating.

          • Anon

            “and you know it.”

            That’s bullsh-t. You two really need to calm down and stop being so defensive. Ask yourself if the problem is me or you (hint: it isn’t with me).

          • anon

            Sure lady, it’s definitely not you. You’re perfect. You’re not overreacting or being defensive here *at all*. You appear very calm.

          • anon

            Dude, you accused someone of “freaking out at you” for no reason. You sound like a child.

          • Anon

            “You sound like a child.”

            That’s called “projection.”

            I suggest we not have this conversation, since you are determined to insult me and not actually engage with anything I say.

        • Anonymous

          Yes, agreed. Many of the responses yesterday “wielded singleness like a threat.” i think that is what bothered me about the whole thing.

          • Anon

            But I am not “wielding singleness like a threat;” I’m pointing out that you need to consider whether or not you would prefer to be single. The fact that you all think that is somehow shaming single women is… well, saying a lot about yourselves and nothing about me.

            “Would you rather be single?” is one of the most important and profound questions you can ask yourself when dating (or even in a rough part of your marriage). There were many relationships I ended when I thought of it that way, rather than “Can I continue to try to make it work?” or such.

          • Anon

            Not the Anon you’re responding to but I don’t read this as wielding singleness as a threat. I frequently ask the question would you be happier if you were single when talking about relationships with friends. I think it only reads as a threat if you view being single as some horrible punishment. And I don’t. It’s a legitimate thing to ask whether you care more about x or not being single. Everyone is going to draw that line in a different place.

        • Anonymous

          I think that many (some) people don’t like to confront the alternative to their own choices. Like if a woman marries a guy who is great in a lot of ways but is not super attractive, maybe she wonders what life would be like if she had married a hot guy who had other trade offs. “Singleness as a threat” is tied in to that line of thinking too.

          I also think that there is also more pressure on women to be forgiving of a man’s looks. So if a woman goes against that norm, by prioritizing attractiveness in men, then other women get mad at her.

          For my .02 I think that women can choose to date a guy with ugly hair or choose not to date a guy with weird hair. Your reasons for doing so are not an invitation for your friends to argue with you.

          • Anonymous

            Yes, there is a ton of pressure on women to be forgiving of men’s looks. Most of my male friends would not hesitate to turn down a date with someone that they thought had bad hair. It certainly wouldn’t turn into a “you will be single forever” conversation.

          • Anon

            I saw a study indicating that women think about 80% of men are “below average” in attractiveness.

            Absent digging into the methodology, I am a bit sceptical… but it also indicates that this “social pressure” may not be unwarranted.

          • Anon

            Interesting. I’m also skeptical. Do you happen to have a link to the study? I’d be super interested to read more.

          • Anonymous

            Oh dear. And yet 80% sounds about right to me if “below average” means something more like “meh.” Maybe they need better haircuts.

          • Anonymous

            Here is the thing–i feel like there aren’t really that many hair styles that i am aware of for guys. Like, it is bald, man bun, dreadlocks, or “regular hair.” the only one of those that is a deal breaker for me is the man bun. i am not sure that means i am too into appearance or destined to be single forever. it just means i associate a certain personality type with the man bun, and i am not into it. i don’t know know what half of these other male hairstyles are that people are talking about here. all of those sort of fall into the “regular hair” category for me.

    • Anonymous

      1. If the look isn’t for you, doesn’t that really mean you’re just not into him? It seems like a sign that you aren’t physically attracted to him and/or his positive qualities don’t outweigh the negative factor for you. In either case, it doesn’t sound like a good match.
      2. Many choices about personal appearance (fashion, grooming, tattoos, piercings, etc.) are deliberate signals about lifestyle preferences and values. A wildly different aesthetic is likely to indicate a general lack of compatibility.

      • Anon pixie fade

        I tend to agree with this. I have a pixie/fade haircut, and I love it, but I know some men aren’t attracted to short-haired women. I specifically do not want to go out with these men, and I would rather they not talk themselves into it and hope that I will eventually grow it long again. It does represent something about my personality! Take it or leave it!

        Men’s aesthetic choices sometimes aren’t as thought-out as ours are, since men’s appearances aren’t as big a deal in our culture. But still. If I wouldn’t want a man who didn’t like my look, then I won’t pursue someone hoping they will change their look either.

      • Worry about yourself

        Your second point resonates with me. If a guy doesn’t like my short hair, or its unnatural color, he’s probably not the guy for me, even if this hair isn’t permanent. Same goes for what I wear. I don’t want to date someone who thinks I’m nice on the inside, but thinks my clothing/hair/makeup is silly and is secretly hoping I’ll change it up eventually. And I really don’t want to date a guy who constantly tells me what changes I should make to my appearance, been there done that, it wasn’t fun.

    • Houda

      For me, some physical alterations are a big turn off e.g. if a man has an ear disk to dilate the lobe or other similar things. If I can’t look at him without wincing then it’s not for me.
      On the hair thing, I personally can’t look at a fair skinned man with dreadlocks, big no-no.

    • Anonymous

      You can decide that but you might miss out on a great guy.

      I didn’t love DH’s hairstyle when we first got together but after we were together a while he mentionned being self conscious about starting to lose his hair. I told him I didn’t notice but it would look thicker if he cut it shorter so he did. He still likes it longer, he knows I think it’s hotter if it’s shorter and it’s usually somewhere inbetween. Similarly, I noticed that he tended to compliment me more when I wore eyeliner and skirts vs pants so I tend to make an effort in that regard especially for date nights.

    • Anon

      Of course you can be choosy, but I think the point is just that superficial things like that are easy to get past so it might be worth going on another date or two to see if you’re attracted to him despite the hairstyle. I think the advice would have been very different if she said she’d gone on three dates with him and wasn’t feeling any attraction. But she’d met him once and liked him and found him attractive, so what’s the harm in going out with him again? She can always end it if the hairstyle is really turning her off.

      This isn’t quite what you asked, but I think a lot of women take the definition of “settling” way too far. I would never advise someone to marry someone she didn’t love, or commit to an exclusive relationship with someone she wasn’t really attracted to. But I tend to think that most people who seem nice and don’t physically repulse you on the first date are probably deserving of a second date to see if more of a spark develops. Attraction always grows more for me, so I would rather err on the side of awkward second dates with guys I’m not that into versus ruling out someone who could be my perfect match too soon.

      • DCR

        I don’t think it is fair to say that she found him attractive. She specifically said that she didn’t find him attractive and that she thought it was because of the hair style. I can’t blame her for that. Although I do find many bald or balding guys attractive, I’ve never found a guy with a man bun attractive.

        • Anon

          I thought she said she found him attractive, but for the hairstyle, or something like that. But maybe I misread or am misremembering.

        • Cat

          In that case, it’s not so much the specific hairstyle as what it represents — my snap judgment of a dude with a man bun is that he’s FAR more likely to be a creative hipster-y type that obsesses over the latest coffee snob gadgets, microbreweries, and bands, and finds the idea of a routine week, working a traditional schedule, etc. not for him…. and thus not a match for me in any way. I would probably be able to gauge the accuracy of that snap judgment in the course of a conversation at a party.

          • emeralds

            Fascinating. I know two man-bun wearers well, and both are nice married dudes with very traditional jobs–one in fundraising at an admittedly arty university, and the other in software consulting. The software consultant is a coffee snob and the fundraiser is a beer snob, I guess, so YMMV.

          • Anonymous

            Yeah, I think that perhaps the “attractiveness” part of the discussion was a bit of a red herring. The hair was more tied to certain personality types/lifestyles/ way of presenting yourself to the world that didn’t click with OP. In the context of dating… not wanting to be set up with some version of a “man-bun type” seems really valid.

            This is gonna sound mean but, IMO there were a lot of posts from people who just wanted to pat themselves on the back for not being shallow. I freely admit to being shallow, I tell my husband all the time that I love him for his looks (and some other stuff) and honestly, it is important for me that he is proud to be seen with me. Feel free to think I’m terrible.

        • SFAttorney

          I bet it is super short on the sides with a “part” made by clippers and long and flopping around on top.

    • Anon

      That thread was a little frustrating. She said he was a great guy but she didn’t like his hair so should she not have a first date? Most of us said hair is superficial, go on the first date if he’s a great guy. Then she followed up and said she had actually met him before and didn’t like him and THAT IS TOTALLY DIFFERENT.

      • Anon

        I guess I didn’t see the disconnect in the posts. Her first post said that she had meet him via friends, he seemed like a nice guy, but she didn’t find him attractive because of the hair. Her question was should she go out with him despite the fact that she didn’t find him attractive. Her second post basically said thanks for talking me in to going on a date with him even through I don’t find him attractive.

        What was the disconnect?

    • Anon

      You can of course decide a certain look isn’t for you. You are in charge of your own time and you certainly don’t owe anyone your time.

      That said, I do find “deal breakers” based on appearances (especially highly changeable ones) to be silly. If you wouldnt break up with a guy over a haircut or bad style or whatever, to me personally it seems dumb to not consider dating someone over it.

      If you aren’t into someone you aren’t into someone but based solely on observations in my friend circle, the women with appearance-based dealbreakers are mostly single. There have been plenty of guys in my life who I wasn’t immediately attracted to but that attraction grew over time as I got to know them so I always encourage people to get to know someone before concluding you aren’t attracted to them based on a specific appearance thing. Also, looks aren’t forever. We all age.

      • Anonymous

        the women with appearance-based dealbreakers are mostly single

        – this. And they make judgy comments about not wanting to ‘settle’. Like sorry but I don’t care that DH didn’t walk off the cover of GQ but you’re missing perfectly good guys if you’re judging them immediately. Nothing wrong with being single but don’t act like it’s not a choice as to whether or not a certain hairstyle is a dealbreaker.

        • Anonymous

          this is so strange. i definitely want to be attracted to the person i am dating, which means that his appearance comes into play. have you ever tried to fool around with a guy that you are just not into physical at all? It feels weird and wrong. i have no plans to do that for the rest of my life, and would definitely rather keep looking. the poster from yesterday was trying to be honest about what she was feeling.

          • nona

            But sometimes, someone becomes more attractive as you get to know them, without ever changing anything about their appearance.

            Personally, I think how someone makes you feel is more important than how they look – but i know that I’m probably only going to know that after I’ve gotten to know a person.

          • anon

            I agree with you, nona, and think that’s part of the reason this is a difficult question for lots of women. If I continue to get to know this person, will enough attraction to sustain the relationship materialize? But it’s a risk– what if it doesn’t? You’ve wasted time, gotten emotionally invested, risk hurting someone. Have awkward gardening. How long do you give it? Two dates? Two months? 6? I struggle with this a lot.

          • Anonymous

            have you ever tried to fool around with a guy that you are just not into physical at all?

            – no because there’s a space between not liking a guy’s hair and being attracted in the least. Unlike romcoms there is not always a lightening moment of instant attraction. Attraction can build and a marriage based just on looks isn’t going to last because everyone ages.

            I wasn’t attracted to my DH in the least when I met him. He was blond and had a beard and liked cats – totally not my type or so I thought. After a month and getting to know him as friends, I was totally into him.

        • Anon

          I think this is a little harsh but I generally agree.

          I don’t get why women frequently make snarky comments about men who will only date women who look a certain way but then act like it’s unfair for women to judge women who rule out men based on looks.

          • anonymous

            In my experience, women are usually commenting on needing to establish basic attraction and men are wanting women who are out of their leagues, for lack of a better term.

        • anon

          So is your alternative to marry someone you’re not attracted to so that you can have the pleasure of going through a divorce in 5-10 years when you don’t want to garden and have a dead bedroom? I seriously don’t understand why you think that’s good advice for someone. I have tried to make myself be attracted to “great” guys and it just sucks. A partner to whom you are not attracted is not a “perfectly good” partner.

          • Anon

            Others may be suggesting you marry someone you’re not attracted to but I was merely advocating giving someone a few chances to grow on you. Many people have expressed that for them attraction can grow over time.

          • Anonymous

            No. I’m suggesting you give the guy that you’re not instantly attracted to but who you kinda like a couple of dates to see if there is a connect. And then you might end up in a relationship where you go at it three times a day for the first couple years until you have kids and it slows down to three times a week after 16 years together….

          • Anon

            Uh she did say that. Her comment was about immediately writing off guys. As in not giving them a chance.

          • Anon

            Yeah I don’t think anyone is saying marry someone who don’t want to garden with. Of course attraction is important. But just because a guy does not look like [insert celebrity of your choice] or doesn’t meet certain fairly arbitrary physical criteria you think you want doesn’t mean you won’t find him attractive. And even if you don’t think he’s breathtakingly gorgeous when you first meet him, attraction grows for a lot of people over time. I agree that feeling repulsed by someone is a pretty clear sign you shouldn’t see them again. But if you think someone is a great person but you feel kind of ‘meh’ on physical attraction, I think it’s worth taking a chance on a second date (what do you have to lose, anyway?) and seeing if the attraction grows over time.

            Also, fwiw, I’m 40 now and have been through a pretty big wave of divorces among my friends that married in their late 20s/early 30s, which was most people I know. It’s not the less passionate couples getting divorced. It’s the MOST passionate couples who had their hands all over each other and their tongues down each others throats at every group gathering a decade ago. Because guess what? Pretty much every married couple will have at least a temporary drop-off in passion at some point, and you’re kidding yourself if you think otherwise. Even if you don’t have kids, you’re likely to lose a parent at some point, find yourself in a stressful work situation or deal with some physical changes to your body as you age. All of these things can seriously affect your libido. And if doing it twice a day is the foundation of your relationship, when the passion wanes, you freak. And you turn to someone else who can provide the same rush you had with your partner at the beginning. And you have an affair and get divorced. From what I’ve seen, people who are more realistic about the complex nature of attraction are more likely to be supportive of a partner’s temporary decrease in libido and more willing to put in the work to reconnect and get the passion back in their relationship.

          • Anon

            Anon at 3:02 this is a really interesting observation regarding “passion”, which I’ve long thought was overrated so glad to hear some anecdotal evidence that I’m not wrong!

          • anon

            She also said this “the women with appearance-based dealbreakers are mostly single– this. And they make judgy comments about not wanting to ‘settle’.” I don’t really disagree with anything in the longer post, but I do think it’s patronizing to imply that others (me?) haven’t given the complex nature of attraction this much thought and/or don’t realize that “passion” can fade.

      • Anon

        Yeah, this is probably smug married, but my single girlfriends are all jealous of my relationship with my DH, who is super hot, a great person and does more than half of the housework and childcare. Guess what? He’s 5’8″ and they all would have filtered him out on the apps because of his height. I totally understand wanting to be really attracted to someone, but I don’t understand setting arbitrary restrictions on race, height, weight, education, income, etc. And I don’t think it’s a coincidence most of the people who were strictest about these requirements are still single. And now they’re mostly dating divorced guys with a lot of baggage, which seems way more like “settling” to me than marrying a slightly shorter or heavier guy.

        • Anon

          I often joke that I’m so lucky I met my husband before online dating/apps were mainstream because we both fully admit we would have filtered out the other based on a bunch of random stuff like you just mentioned.

          I’m also probably smug married but I soooo relate to this. I have a few “friends” who made some snarky comments about my husband when we were first dating but now express jealousy over our very happy relationship.

        • Anonymous

          Wait… height, weight, education, income, yes I have heard all the deal breakers about that in a combined 4,000 years of dating between me and my friends, but race, really? Do people still have racial deal breakers and admit them to other people? Maybe it is confirmation bias cuz DH and I are a mixed couple and so are half of our friends, but sheesh, that is surprising to me.

          • Of Counsel

            Yes – people do filter by race. Some of them admit it; many do not but there are studies showing that racial preferences in dating are common (and some evidence that they are stronger among women than men.) I know a lot of people who filter by race; in many cases those people are not white and are specifically using an app because they are looking for someone who shares their race/ethnicity/religion.

          • Anon

            Yes people do this explicitly. A lot of people also do this stealthily by claiming they are filtering based on other factors that can be a proxy for race.

          • Anon

            I don’t think it’s crazy. I have a bunch of friends who are racial minorities and all of them had an express preference for dating/marrying a fellow member of their racial group. Personally, I’m white and like to think I would have been open to marrying someone of any race (although I ended up with a white guy with a very similar cultural background, so perhaps there was unconscious bias). But I can’t blame someone for having a preference for marrying someone who shares their cultural background and the common experience of living in the US as that particular minority. Most of my friends’ parents were not supportive of cross-cultural dating, and it’s really hard on a relationship when your parents aren’t supportive, so I don’t think it’s unreasonable to want to avoid that strife. In-law relationships are hard enough as it is.

          • Anonymous

            Is there a man bun filter on dating apps? I would definitely use that filter.

          • Anon

            If enjoying my marriage despite BS comments about me settling makes me smug married, I will own that.

          • anonymous

            What? How on earth do you think that what you posted constitutes “enjoying your marriage despite BS comments about you settling”? I mean honestly– that’s not remotely what you said at all. Delusional.

          • Anon

            im owning to the fact that I am absolutely smug about the fact that people who made obnoxious comments are still single and I’m married.

            If you think something else was smug, please explain.

            Also maybe stop calling people on this thread who are sharing their experiences delusional if you’re the same anonymous as above.

        • Anonymous

          +1 This is why it doesn’t work to rely on online dating alone. I totally would have said ‘must love dogs’. DH hates dogs. Turns out I want to be married to him more than I want a dog. And after getting to know my friends who have dogs he’s actually warmed up to them enough to dog-sit for friends when they travel which is great because I get doggy company without the hassles of dog ownership.

        • Anonymous

          I agree. 5’9″ yes, 5’8″ no is ridiculous, and yet that’s the outcome whenever someone chooses a hard cut off in an app.

        • Anonymous

          Super late to this party but people search old threads so wanted to add this.
          I met my husband in grad school (he was 28). He is a bigger guy (he’s built like an NFL defensive lineman but never played football) and had had trouble dating as a result. We met, became friends, realized we were into each other, hooked up. Still together almost 22 years later. What those other women didn’t realize (or I guess maybe didn’t care about) is that my husband has a huge heart, is compassionate and funny, is motivated and ambitious but also believes in equal division of labor and supports my career, is an excellent hands-on father, etc. I am so grateful for those other women who threw him over because he didn’t fit their ideal of what their boyfriend should look like. That means I got him, and I feel like I won the lottery. P.S., after we got out of school and got jobs, my husband took up weightlifting and cycling and lost about 50 lbs. I didn’t care, I liked him more-than-enough the way he was. But at school reunions I could tell that the ex-girlfriends we ran into (most of whom were on their second divorce) were regretful or unflatteringly surprised that the guy they thought was a schlub looked that good and was now a six-figure earner. Their loss.

      • Anon

        I always find that it is women who are married to attractive men who say that looks shouldn’t be a deal breaker. I find so many different types of men to be attractive, and don’t expect that any guy I date will look like he walked off the cover of a magazine. (If a guy looks like he could be in a magazine, I just assume he would never be interested in me.)

        But why does that mean I can’t have a couple of looks I just don’t find attractive?
        A guy who is 5’7 with short hair or balding? Sure, I’ll go out with him. If I don’t initially find him attractive, I might over time.
        A guy who is over 6’0 with long hair or a man bun? I would probably go out with him if asked. But I’ve never found a guy like that attractive, and doubt I would find this guy so

        • Ellen

          I think we do need to care about things we care about, just as men do. But we should NOT get carried away with it. We should all start out as freinds with a man, so that we do not rush to have $ex. Once we see if we LIKE a guy as a person, and can spend time vertically w/o getting bored or looseing our focus, we can then and only then consider takeing him into our bedrooms. Then we can evaluate whether the horizontal activity is worth doing again. If you do it in that order, you can decide better if you want to make him your boyfreind. Otherwise you will just think of the guy as an appendage, which does NOT make for a good relationship. FOOEY!

      • Anon

        “If you aren’t into someone you aren’t into someone but based solely on observations in my friend circle, the women with appearance-based dealbreakers are mostly single.”

        Yep.

    • Anonymous

      I honestly think someone with a lot of tattoos. I am not against tattoos, but don’t have any myself. When I’ve talked with people who have a lot of tattoos, there are often these wonderful stories about why they have that certain tattoo and where the specific design comes from. I think these stories are awesome and I’m always eager to hear them. However, I can’t think of a single thing that I feel passionate enough about to tattoo on my body, so I don’t foresee myself ever getting a tattoo (I’ve thought about this on several occasions – I don’t think I like what it says about me that I don’t feel passionate enough about any one thing to tattoo it on myself). I think this would present a huge and somewhat fundamental disconnect in a relationship because I don’t understand the level of passion required to permanently mark yourself. (not as big a disconnect as kids/no kids). I say all of this, but I have never dated someone with any tattoos at all, so I don’t actually know how I would react if dating someone like this.

      • Rainbow Hair

        Huh! I love my tattoos but they aren’t really because of a Deep Feeling. More just like, “My body is awesome. Oooh it would be even awesomer with a a TIGER* on it!” I mean, yes, there are tiny minor meanings — this tattoo is autumnal because I got it on my first wedding anniversary and I got married in the fall (and I love fall colors), etc. But they don’t necessarily Mean Something. I just like them. My husband is probably an easier example, because if you asked “why do you have [whatever] tattooed on you?” you would likely be answered with “why not? octopi/crickets/Dali/witches/robots/geckos are so cool!”

        Just in case you want to date someone with tattoos :)

        *not a tiger

        • Anon

          This is consistent with my experience. Those who have tattoos just thought they looked nice/were drunk or high at the time. Those without tattoos feel like the tattoo must have some deep meaning and can’t think of anything with that type of meaning.

    • Anon

      I’m very amused that I seem to be the only person here who actually *likes* manbuns and undercuts with long, floppy hair on top.

  9. YouTube addict

    I have been watching YouTube too much. I do it as a form of relaxation even though it doesn’t actually make me relaxed. But I often can’t stop. Usually, I’ll get home from work and jump on the bed to watch some of my favorite channels on YouTube for about an hour before getting ready to go to sleep. Also, when I get ready for bed and wash my wash, I’ll play something in the background on YouTube.

    Has anyone been able to successfully replace this habit with something better? How to stop this?

    • anon

      I did this. Went cold turkey on youtube & Netflix and replaced it with reading. Whenever I feel the urge to watch something instead, I remind myself that I love reading and I’ll enjoy it so much more than TV. I feel like the activation energy for reading is just higher, even though I love it. Once I get over that hump, it’s actually relatively easy to keep my netflix/youtube watching in check.

    • CPA Lady

      If you want to keep watching youtube, but just not as much, then either set a timer and turn youtube off the second the timer goes off, or if you don’t have the discipline to do that, install one of those programs that locks you out of certain websites at certain times.

      If you are looking to replace it entirely, you could start reading for fun, doing jigsaw puzzles, or something else that does not involve a screen. If you want there to be sound while you’re doing chores, try listening to podcasts. FWIW, I’m not suggesting you read Tolstoy or something like that. You can start with brain candy fluff books. The point here is that you need to have time to relax and chill. Not every moment needs to be productive.

      Ive started reading the book “Digital Minimalism”. It’s a pretty extreme system, but it might be worth a read for you. I am definitely addicted to my phone, and this book has been really eye opening.

      • Anon

        Could you expand on what’s been eye opening about Digital Minimalism? I’ve heard Cal Newport on a few podcasts but I’m curious if I’m missing the finer points by not reading his book. I agree with his ideas that constant digital distraction injures work productivity and that quality leisure activities are actually restorative and good for us but maybe he makes other arguments that I’ve missed? What do you think of the book?

        • CPA Lady

          Well, I’m only part way through the book, but the biggest eye opening thing for me so far is that apps, websites, netflix, and the like are specifically designed to be as addictive as possible so that you consume them as long as possible (thus making ad revenue money for the various companies). The colors chosen, the alert systems, the design, “likes” on facebook, every single aspect is engineered specifically to hit your dopamine receptors to keep you so sucked in that you look up an hour later and wonder what happened, day after day. It’s one of those things that is not at all surprising, and makes total sense, but is still somehow very eye-opening.

    • Houda

      This is my routine but what I started doing is allowing myself to watch youtube while prepping and having dinner. Then for the post dinner routine, I might listen to music, and then read a book while having my last snack. This means less screen time for at least an hour before trying to sleep

    • Vicky Austin

      I used to do this a lot when I lived alone, just for background noise. Having another person in the house helped me kick the habit. Maybe you can leave YouTube on in another room. Or perhaps try a white noise/sleep noise app?

  10. In-House in Houston

    Hi Ladies, Macys is having a flash sale on handbags, wallets and belts. I just got 3 belts (INC and Michael Kors) for $74 for all 3. After that gorgeous dress Kat posted last week with the pretty belt, I’ve been on the hunt for some nice belts. The INC belt has 1 bad review, but with the flash sale, it’s only $14.60 so I got it in both colors and if it does look cheap I’ll return them. Here’s a link to the belts I got:
    https://www.macys.com/shop/product/i.n.c.-oversized-buckle-stretch-belt-created-for-macys?ID=9338112
    https://www.macys.com/shop/product/michael-michael-kors-oversized-croc-embossed-belt?ID=6772404

  11. anon

    I’m 30 and have been super into working out all my adult life (long distance running, weightlifting, boxing, etc) I’ve been reading recently about studies suggesting that extreme endurance sports can have damaging effects on the heart (and I have a strong family history of heart disease, so this is of particular concern for me), but I haven’t come across anything that suggests what “extreme” means in context and how much exercise is likely to be okay. I’m also training for my first marathon, so this is super timely.

    Anyone have any insight/done research into this?

    • Anonymous

      I think you should probably talk to your doctor to see what your preventive care options are and what kind of monitoring you can do, especially in light of the family history.

      • anon OP

        Yeah I did this. She said I’m super healthy and young and no need to do anything special. Just the standard eat well, don’t smoke, exercise etc etc. I was dissatisfied with that response, but I’m not sure if I’m going to get anything more informative.

        • emeralds

          In mod for who knows what, but “extreme” in this context will refer to, well, extremes. For running that’s not marathons, but ultras or back-to-back marathons.

          Also note that many of these studies look at elite professional athletes. It is very unlikely that a serious-but-recreational athlete is going to be working at the same level.

          But see a sports cardiologist if you really want to take a deep dive.

      • emeralds

        Yes, you should definitely talk to a doctor.

        My understanding is that “extreme” in this context would refer to the outer bounds of endurance sports–so for a runner, that would be ultras not marathons. Confirmed by this Cleveland Clinic article: https://health.clevelandclinic.org/can-too-much-extreme-exercise-damage-your-heart/

        “Unlike weekend warriors, brisk walkers or even enthusiastic joggers, extreme athletes regularly live up to their name, pushing the limits of their physical capabilities. They run 50 miles or more or repeat marathons in rapid succession, regularly pushing past exhaustion, dehydration and pain that would sideline or hospitalize many people…For those who are athletes and have new symptoms or a diagnosis of heart disease, or those who may be concerned about continuing competition or endurance sports, you should be evaluated by a sports cardiologist.”

    • anon

      (Not a doctor, just a biomedical engineer, so you should really see a doctor if you’re concerned.)

      I haven’t read the studies, but it seems like the type of stress that is damaging to the heart from extreme workouts would be different from the typical heart disease (e.g. artherosclorosis type plaque build up versus scarring and damage to muscle tissue from conditions related to overworking). Knowing what type of heart disease is in your family history would be a good first step, and talking to your doctor, especially since they can help you out with how to take care of your body the right way during training would probably be your best bet.

    • Anon

      This isn’t scientific, but as a lay person and non-runner, “extreme” to me implies more than marathon distances, or certainly a grueling training schedule because you’re training for marathon after marathon. It’s so common to run a marathon these days that it seems weird to describe that as “extreme.”

    • Anon

      https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/full/10.1161/CIRCULATIONAHA.106.613562

      In my circles, the folks who are talked about being most at risk are those who are training exclusively for 70.3 & Ironman distance triathlons year round, sustaining ~20 hours/week of training with no downtime unless injured. That’s a fairly recent phenomenon.

      15-20 years ago, most folks trained for shorter distances (spring/oly), and threw in maybe one 70.3 or road marathon and/or one Ironman in a given year. Also, winters were for rest/mountain biking/screwing around.

      • cbackson

        Not a triathlete (cyclist here), but I’m trying to bring back the off-season of fun-filled screwing around. Let’s ride MTBs! And join our friends for silly costume 5Ks! And do beer relays!

        Too many serious amateurs just lose the joy of the thing – it’s particularly bad in tri and road cycling…

        • Anon

          Oh my yes… I’ve gotten to where I can just about pick out impending relationship issues/divorce/breakup based on someone’s race/training schedule. And no, I don’t ask. It’s the old, “How do you know somebody’s an Ironman triathlete?” They’ll tell you.

          Training as a diversion from life is totally a thing, and not a healthy thing.

      • pugsnbourbon

        I remember when one guy at our gym was trained for an Ironman – I saw him a week after the race and he looked like someone had dug up his corpse and reanimated him. He looked a lot better in a few more weeks but I can’t imagine trying to do more than one of those a year.

    • cbackson

      The best information out there suggests that the people who are at risk for those heart issues (such as atrial fibrillation) are those who are consistently training at a high level for competitive events for many years. If you’re a recreational runner – even one training for your first marathon – that’s not likely to put you at risk. I actually am a person who has the typical profile for this – started training seriously in childhood and still do, and I already have issues with bradycardia – but I don’t have any signs of heart damage. I have gotten worried about it, though, so I’m limiting my competitive season to 6 months of the year, and reducing my training load the rest of the year.

      You’d have to talk to a doctor about whether your family heart problems are the kind that are exacerbated by endurance sports (most aren’t). It’s probably also worth having a relationship with a cardiologist given that history – if nothing else so that you have a baseline for what your heart looks and sounds like when it’s healthy.

      • anon OP

        When you say you have issues with bradycardia, what exactly do you mean? Just a low RHR, or are you also experiencing other symptoms? My RHR is around 48-50 bpm, but I otherwise feel fine. And how do you know you don’t have any signs of heart damage? Did you have specific tests run, or just normal check ups that don’t turn up any problems?

        • cbackson

          Super low RHR (around 38) with severe orthostatic hypotension that produces frequent blackouts. It’s been an issue forever (but I’ve been an athlete since I was 9). I had a bunch of testing done during a particularly bad phase with the hypotension, including an echocardiogram with bubble, and I’ve had multiple EKGs over the years, with no abnormalities except a mild PFO (which is super common).

          The advice to me was just to stay very well hydrated at all times and to eat a slightly high salt diet. That’s to manage the hypotension, and it generally works well, so I haven’t need medication or other treatment. I’ve never had cardiac symptoms during exercise (except once but that was because I was having a major medical crisis of a different type that caused the cardiac event).

          • Anonymous

            Did they never have you try compression garments for the orthostatic hypotension? It sounds like you have this under control, but I was personally annoyed with my doctors for not bringing this up except as some kind of last resort (it’s a lower risk intervention than some of the meds they had me try first!).

          • cbackson

            Oh my gosh. The whole process was so…until I found a good cardiologist, everyone was SUPER interventionist from minute one. The cardio I have now didn’t recommend compression garments, but he was the one who said, “before we try anything else, make sure you’re well hydrated, and eat a salty snack in the morning and afternoon.” We used urine color as a proxy for hydration. And that largely eliminated my symptoms. It was such a change in approach from the docs who immediately wanted to go to medication.

          • Anonymous

            Salt is amazing. I’m glad your symptoms are mostly gone. I think I remember that having a good amount of muscle can work somewhat like compression anyway; I need to work on that! The compression was a revelation to me, since I had previously wondered why I had never had a fainting spell at a wedding, despite the orthostatic challenges of church services, posing for photos outside in the heat, etc. Now I think it was probably the shapewear. Bodies are weird.

          • Anonymous

            My DH has similar issues. The key for him has been rehydration with coconut water and using a half salt/half potassium shaker instead of just a salt shaker to add to foods. It’s not just the salt for him, it’s the hydrate, salt and ratio to potassium.

    • Anon

      This is interesting to me. I used to work with a guy who was a dedicated runner, like he ran every day before and after work, flew all over for marathons, pretty much only talked about running etc. like, for years and years. Then he did some 100+ mile run in the desert and never ran again, never talked about running again.

      He wasn’t the kind of person you could ask about it, but one of his work friends said the desert run had “broken” him and he couldn’t run anymore.

      I wonder if he had a cardiac issue. How scary! This was well before any of this research came out.

      • Anon

        And I just googled him because I am nosy AF. I found results for him in several recent ultramarathons so I guess he’s back at it after a break of several years.

        • Anonymous

          It’s pretty common to have an intense drop after the big run is done and all the focus/challenge/adrenaline of training in gone. Not uncommon to take a few years to find their grove again.

      • Anon

        On these ultra races, they will test your urine to make sure your kidneys are still functioning properly. A guy I know was doing FOUR back to back marathons with no rest in between for four charities. They made him drop out somewhere in race three because his kidney levels were so out of whack. He was mad and swore he could have finished it. He also could have died. I can’t remember the name of the condition now but I know someone who ended up with it after one super intense cross fit session when she was otherwise very out of shape. She was hospitalized for several days.

        • Nesprin

          Rhabdomyolysis. Basically you choke your kidneys with broken down protein- is a life threatening condition marked by urine the color of tea.

        • cbackson

          Rhabdo. I’ve had it, and almost died. Not as in “I was almost sick enough to die” but as in “I was literally dying and doctors saved my life.” It’s bad.

          • Anon

            My nephew had rhabdomyelosis as a teen and they called in the family to say goodbye to him. Then he surprisingly pulled through, thank goodness.

  12. Anon

    What gets you in the mood to garden? I am literally never in the mood and it’s really affecting my relationship. I can go months without any desire at all. I’ve also gained two sizes since we met 2 years ago so really not feeling myself anymore either. But the lack of desire started before the weight gain. I find my partner very attractive, so that’s not it. I’ve twice tried stopping BC for a few months to see if that would help but it didn’t. This has been a problem for me that has ended relationships in the past and I really don’t want that to happen with this one.

    • Anonymous

      Do you and your partner have date nights? Like make reservations and have dinner at new place? Try a new activity together? Basically dating each other again usually gets the spark back.

      Post kids I also made a commitment to myself that I’d just go with it at least once a week so that even if I wasn’t super into it, I would give it a try. 90% of the time I ended up loving it and 10% I’m happy that DH is happy with the closeness. With time, this has gotten us back up to our 3x week rate from before kids and I’m pretty happy with that.

    • Anon

      Are you in the mood once you start, or at least get into it enough to find it a good use of your time?

      A lot of women are more reactive, in that it’s not something we consciously want, but will get into it enough once it starts. If you are like that – or like me, an extreme version of that – you talk to your SO about initiating, you initiate every so often as an act of love, and you accept yourself the way you are.

        • Anon

          So that’s another problem. Is it because of lack of satisfaction, or you just don’t enjoy the sensation? Do you feel some subtle pressure to perform that makes it uncomfortable for you? Are there other problems in your relationship affecting your desire?

        • Ellen

          I think there could be a hormonal problem. Rosa had this issue with Ed, and she already had kids, so it can creep up on you. She lost interest in $ex, and Ed thought it might have been him; so he shaved and cleaned up but she still had no interest in $ex. So she went to her gynecologist that took some tests and she learned there was a drop in her hormones. She gave her some shots and within a week or so, she gained her libido back. She was happy, but Ed was VERY happy. She got pregnant within a month afterward, and the baby is now 3. YAY!!!

        • anonymous

          I’m the same way. Practically no drive. I just go through with it and fake my way through it. Been married 20 years. Part of it is that things aren’t and haven’t been great outside the bedroom for years.

        • Anon

          Assuming everything medical comes back normal, have you considered that you may be asexual? Aces can still be happy in relationships with non-aces, but it can be a relief to know it’s not something wrong with you. It’s just an orientation. Then you can reframe the issue not about how to fix yourself, but how to reach an acceptable compromise with your partner so you are both happy. It’s fine to not really enjoy it. There’s so much talk about how it great it should be, or you should do it x times a week. Some people just aren’t that into it and it’s perfectly fine.

        • Anon for this

          No help, just commiseration. I feel the same way, married for 16 years and I just don’t really enjoy gardening much. Like, I would be content with a couple of times a year. Once or twice a month I can stand; any more frequently than that and I want to lock him out of the room.

        • Anon

          More commiseration from me – married 9 years and zero desire. We have a toddler, but the lack of desire pre-dates the baby. We do it roughly weekly, but it’s very much a chore for me. I really don’t think I’m as3xual because I had a lot of desire for it in the beginning. Still find my husband super attractive, so the problem is definitely not with him either. I think real life (once you get out of that honeymoon period and excluding things like vacations) is just tiring and stressful and kills my desire.

    • Anon

      Gardening begets more gardening. Reach across the bed. Do the thing. It will probably get you in the mood for more.

        • Ellen

          I think to much gardening can make you lose desire. My ex made me garden 2x a day, and while it started out fun, before we were thru, I could not wait for him to finish, which fortunately did not take to long. It still was a chore, particularly after I got home from work. I did NOT appreciate having to satisfy HIM as soon as I walked in the door. FOOEY!

    • Anonymous

      It sounds like you need a better doctor; to me these are medical symptoms that are not normal. Two cycles may also not be enough time to “get back to normal” especially if your thyroid is low, if you never actually started ovulating again, if you are on a diet, and the list goes on. I have had to see “functional” doctors at times for women’s health issues because they will run a few more tests and are more willing to set the goal of optimal health (vs. shrugging and telling you to live with it). I personally had good luck with vitex agnus-castus after quitting BC, but it probably all depends on what’s going on.

    • In-House in Houston

      Go have your hormones levels checked. I did and my testosterone was so low that it didn’t even register. I was in the exact same place you’re in now and once I got my hormones where they should be, the desire to garden came back (with a vengeance) and I’ve had more energy so that the weight is coming off too. Not sure how old you are, but this could really be the reason you’re feeling this way.

      • Anonymous

        My testosterone was okay, but my SHBG was literally off the charts. So my androgens were “bound” and inactive. I got lucky that my doctor even tested this, since it’s not on the standard panel. My takeaway is that there is a lot they can look into medically (but they won’t unless you ask).

      • Batgirl

        Can I ask how you got your hormone levels to where they should be? Was this with an endocrinologist or some other kind of doctor? Didn’t realize you could take hormones “just” for s3x drive.

        • In-House in Houston

          I get “pellets” of testosterone underneath my skin, sort of on my upper glute area. There are many ways you can get testosterone (creams, pills, pellets) but I chose the pellets b/c they work faster and I don’t have to remember to take a pill or use a cream. I’m telling you, Batgirl, it’s changed my life. Just google hormone therapy. I have more energy and have lost weight just from the therapy and I want to garden 10x more than I ever have. I go to a place that specializes in this (with an MD), but when I was at my OBGYN office getting my annual exam, I saw that they offer it too. But I wouldn’t say that I got this just for gardening….I was feeling blah, sluggish, couldn’t lose the weight I used to be able to lose fairly easily and a friend of mine had just gone through the same thing and so I went where she went.

    • anon

      You did not give your age but you may need your hormone levels checked? I just started HRT. I was like you before and had been on BC my whole adult life. The combination of no BC and added hormones makes me realize what all the fuss is about.

    • Anonymous

      If my hair looks great I feel in the mood. If my hair doesn’t, I feel self conscious and just not into it. Sounds lame, but that affects me. BC was also big. BC flat lined my moods, so I went off of them and was back to “normal” within a few months.

    • Lady Astronaut

      Is your partner bad at f0r3play? or otherwise not very sensitive to your physical wants and needs (back rubs/cuddling/foot massage/whatever floats your boat)? Does he come to bed with certain expectations and get disappointed if things don’t go his way? Maybe he is expecting too much while giving too little. I don’t mean to undermine any possible medical issues you may be experiencing, but maybe it’s him, not you?

  13. pugsnbourbon

    Follow up on the press-on nails I mentioned last week – I wore one set Wednesday night through Monday. They stayed on through a couple workouts, pretty vigorous house cleaning, and mowing the lawn. They didn’t budge. Removal wasn’t terrible and I feel like they damaged my nails less than glue-on fakes. I was impressed (haha). I have thin, peel-y nails and I think these will be a good option when I’m looking a little ragged.

    • lsw

      Are they hard to apply neatly? I’m terrible at things like that, but I’m very intrigued by this option!

    • A.

      I am a new convert to the press-on nail trend and I love these! I’m a nail idiot — terrible at painting my own nails and not into beauty all that much in general. Modern press on nails (Kiss or Impress brand) have totally changed the game for me. Easy to apply and they stay on for long enough that the $6-$10/package is TOTALLY worth it. Faster, easier, cheaper, and just as good looking as a gel manicure. Plus I had a ton of people compliment my nails and none of them could believe that they were fake. Highly recommend.

      • Anonymous

        For Impress is there a difference in how they’re applied, glue or ___? I’m ok to do them once in a blue moon to save time for getting a mani but don’t want to have them ruin my nails so I have to keep on doing them. Thanks!

    • Anonymous

      As a counterpoint, I tried a set of KISS nails after seeing that post and within 24 hrs (during which I went about my usual routine of work, gym, etc), one had fallen off and a second had warped. Maybe I got a defective set, but I’m not inclined to try again, which is a bummer because other than that, they looked nice!

    • pugsnbourbon

      More follow-ups:
      Yes, they are easy to apply neatly – way easier than glue for me.
      For the Impress ones I used, they’re individual nails with adhesive. You line them up with your nail, remove the protective plastic, and stick them on. They’re “pressure sensitive” so press hard.
      They’re called Kiss imPress One-Step Gel. They’re on Amazon, but I found mine at the drugstore.
      I’m having a little trouble with a pinky nail today but pressing it again seems to help.

  14. Anon

    Administrative Professionals Day is tomorrow.

    Do people generally do anything for the receptionist, or is that left to the discretion of the people to whom (s)he reports? If you were to do something, what types of gifts or acknowledgements are good?

    Not trying to start a war here about Admin Professionals Day, just looking for suggestions.

    • Anon

      I would not get a gift for anyone who does not report to you (unless someone else is organizing a group gift and you’re asked to contribute).

    • Anonymous

      I have been struggling with this, as well. I recently lateraled, have two assistants (am giving fancy chocolates with a $20 gift card to the coffee shop downstairs), and have noticed that the receptionists have a lot of power. They’ve been kind to me, and I anticipate giving a small gift (perhaps a note and something to share) may be helpful. There is one main receptionist, but she doesn’t open or close so I’m not exactly sure how to give her something without singling her out and hurting feelings of the others.

  15. Florida outlet shopping

    Headed to Florida later this week and trying to figure out where to outlet shop. Our tiny city has zero outlets nearby. My mom is coming on the trip and recommends the Ellenton (sp?) outlets but that’s during the Anna Maria Island beach time part of our trip and I’d rather shop during the Orlando/theme parks part of our trip. Mostly interested in JCrew Factory and Lululemon.

    Are there good outlet malls near Orlando/Kissimmee or is it worth it to wait for Ellenton?

    • kp

      The outlets in Daytona Beach are pretty new and great! They have a J Crew, I’m not sure about Lululemon.

    • Leatty

      Orlando’s outlet malls are far better than Ellenton’s. Check out the outlet mall on International Drive in Orlando.

  16. More afterwork questions

    I need to find a hobby for the evenings. After working out and dinner in the evenings, I still feel restless and unproductive, and bingeing Netflix makes it so much worse. Do you have hobbies where you sit but still engage your hands? Puzzles? Knitting? I work out in the mornings, but maybe post-dinner yoga could work.

    • Anon

      Knitting would be great. Once you get the hang of it you can knit while half a watching the tv (bravo is good for the half watching)

    • Anon

      Knitting, crocheting, puzzles, painting, drawing, scrapbooking, playing board games or card games, reading, making crafts or jewelry, writing…

    • Anonymous

      I just started doing bodyflow yoga after dinner (from LMOD) and love it. I am NOT an evening workout person at all.

    • anon a mouse

      Knitting while watching tv is great. I also sew (on a machine) while listening to audiobooks. A friend took up needlepoint and does that.
      I’ve also found, especially as it’s lighter later, that a 20 minute stroll after dinner really improves my digestion and ability to sleep. Not hard exercise, just looking at the neighborhood.

    • Rainbow Hair

      Sewing! I made myself a (muslin of a) dress last night and it’s SUCH a kick and I can’t wait to get home tonight and do more.

    • NOLA

      As long as you’re doing a pattern that doesn’t require too much attention, knitting and TV (or even reading on a Kindle) is great. My current project just requires some counting, so it doesn’t take too much thought process.

    • Ribena (formerly Hermione)

      Knitting! Knitting + Netflix = Knitflixing. It’s a thing, I promise!

    • Anonymous

      How about walking the dog, or if you don’t have one, offering to walk one for a neighbor? That was part of my evening routine pre-kids. Now my neighbors, an older couple without kids have kindly offered to walk our dog for us and they love it as it gets them out for an evening stroll.

  17. Anonymous

    Advice/script please. I know this is a silly question but I haven’t been able to write the script myself. A friend lives in another, far away country. At one point we were loosely romantically linked. We’ve stayed in touch and a couple years ago I was passing through their town and we met up. Of their own volition they lent me something personal to them that would have been handy/interesting/useful for the next leg of my trip and I said I would return it. We started chatting more frequently. Discussions of love + marriage, instigated my them, arose. Last summer I said I was open to trying and then bada bing, they’re off the radar. Okay, but I still have their personal thing. Earlier this year I messaged to confirm their postal address, via a phone chat + I know they don’t access it frequently, they saw the message one month later but didn’t reply until a couple weeks ago when they called and didn’t leave a voice or text message (I missed it, unintentionally). Normally, if I miss a call I will text or call back. I decided to not do that this time. They called again a couple days ago, again didn’t leave a voice or text message. I also missed that unintentionally. I haven’t responded, they have been on the phone chat thing a couple times since then (yes, I’ve been checking). Since I know they go weeks and months without being on, I suspect it’s to check on me (yes, these are the inane games we play).
    So, what’s my next move? I want to return the personal thing, but only if I can get an address confirmation. I want to be my normal polite, friendly self, but I also don’t want to be a doormat given the past romantic + more recent off the radar. Also, I am still open to exploration of a potential romance or at the minimum maintaining our casual friendship, but I don’t want to be a doormat.

    • Anon

      Throw away or donate the thing and delete this person’s contact information from your phone.

    • BabyAssociate

      Just let it go. The person would reach out and ask for the personal thing if it really mattered to them.

    • Anonymous

      Why would you want to remain in contact with this strange manipulative person? Message or text ‘please confirm XYZ is your address as I’m going to mail this by Friday’ – if they don’t confirm, mail it anyway. Worse case it gets returned to sender but more likely they have mail forwarding in place if it is not their current address.

      Find better friends.

      • Anon

        It sounds like it’s been a long time, so I wouldn’t assume their address is the same. Since you say this is a personal item, I’m assuming that this is something they care about and I wouldn’t want to risk it. I would email or text them once and say, I want to return X. Please send your address and I will mail it. If I don’t hear from you by X, I will get rid of it. If they don’t respond, then I think you can donate it without feeing bad.

        Do not date him. Do not be friends with him. Unless you comes back with a story about how his parent just died/his house burned down/other serious thing and that is why he didn’t respond, write him off and never talk to him after this.

    • cbackson

      Why are you open to a romance with someone who went radio silent when you told them you were open to a romance? That’s not the behavior of someone who values you and wants a future with you.

      Text once. Tell this person you need their address to return the personal thing. Let them know that if they don’t send you the address or confirm that you can dispose of it, you’re going to donate/recycle it on XX date.

      When XX date comes, if you haven’t heard from this person, delete their contact info and move on. But either way, don’t date this person. Date someone who is excited about being with you.

      • Anon

        + a million to all of the above. Unless the personal thing costs $$$$$ and would create complications financially if you were to be asked for it back at a later date (in which case they would have asked for it back already/not lent it in the first place), it’s merely a concrete excuse – in your mind – not to move on from this person and keep being hung up on them / try to keep in touch with them, despite your endeavours to appear cool (aka polite and friendly). Ask me how I know these things.

    • Anonymous

      Thanks all, message received and (email and text) messages sent. I know this is the thing that needed to be done/I would have done with anyone else but emotions/nostalgia/faith?/the thing kept me attached. I appreciate the hefty dose of logic.

      • Anonymous

        You want them to be someone who they are not. They are showing you who they are by ignoring you and being rude. It’s a tough thing to accept when someone disappoints you.

    • Anon

      You’re using this item to keep the connection with this person going. Throw it away and then delete this person’s phone number.

  18. Anon

    Thanks to the poster who recommended The Color of Style book last week when we were talking about color analysis. I bought a used copy from amazon and read it this weekend.

    I kind of think the personality typing is a bunch of hooey, but the idea that our best colors are pulled from our skin, eyes, and hair makes a lot of sense to me. And the colors it came up with for me are colors I have always known look pretty good on me – navy, dark green, dark rose, peachy cream. I also know that black and gray are not my best colors but unfortunately those have always been the easiest colors to find work clothing in.

    What is difficult is that the right colors are not easy to find. I’m supposed to be able to find base neutrals in a very dark almost blackish brown. When was the last time you saw that color offered for sale anywhere? And the color Rose is not currently in style anywhere as far as I can tell.

    Those of you who are into this – how do you find the ideal colors when retailers don’t cooperate with your color plan? :)

    • anon

      I would pick neutrals that are as close to the “ideal” as possible, knowing that the seasons and retailers will rarely match up. You said you look good in navy — so go with navy as your main neutral instead of that particular shade of blackish brown that’s impossible to find. I like color theory, but I think you have to recognize that there are tradeoffs to make, in terms of what retailers are offering. It is most helpful for choosing a color when a store offers a top in say, 4 colors, and you can eliminate 2 of them immediately because you know they’ll be terrible on you.

      • anon

        To continue … Black also isn’t a good color on me, so my compromise is to avoid wearing black tops. I still have plenty of black work pants because they’re easy to find and versatile. My basic formula is to wear dark bottoms + a lighter or more colorful top.

        • Anon

          Thanks. I agree I shouldn’t try to be so extra about it but the idea of only wearing certain colors feels so … organized and freeing I guess.

          I’m certainly not going to throw out all my black! I think I’m just going to ban buying more.

          • Ariadne

            A few years ago, I banned myself from buying black, as it makes me look rather washed out. It was tough as so many clothes I liked ended up being black— I relaxed my own rule a bit, and now buy a bit more black, but I try and find a softer black that has an element of texture, or a sheer element. When I wear black tops or a dress, I either wear a scarf, more jewellery, or makeup to offset the harshness. Prints are your friends, and usually contain a wider range of colours.
            My favorite colour combo is a chocolate brown jacket or cardi, with a grey blue top— the dark brown matches my hair and the blue mates my eyes. At times, it is hard to find certain colours, and I try and just go as close as possible with what is out there. I can sew items in a colour I like, but it is not always possible to buy a fabric type in a specific colour either.

      • Anonymous

        Ink blue is in now, so you might stock up on pieces in that, and on dark green dresses, which I know I have seen recently — I use ShopStyle to find something this specific. Espresso is the brown you have in mind and it has been out a long time but there is a lot of brown hitting the stores again so this Fall may be your chance to stock up on that.

    • Anonymous

      I remember that book!

      I think it explains a bit (hair / skin color matter), but the key thing is that if a color isn’t next to your face (blouses, coats, scarves), it doesn’t matter so much.

      Which explains why my tan trench looks so blah on me (ruddy-skinned brunette) but great on other people. Scarf in better color to the rescue :)

      • Anon

        I’m the same in tan. Apparently my third base (my khaki equivalent) is a coppery brown, the lightest color in my hair – WE ARE IGNORING THE GRAYS OK? – but try finding that in a “summer coat” haha

    • Nudibranch

      You want to try to wear the most flattering colors close to your face, so if rose is good on you a rose scarf that forms a visual block between you and your black or grey separates will be more flattering.
      As you update your wardrobe, you can try to add more flattering color options as you can. Eventually, you’ll have more “you” flattering options and less unflattering colors.

      Also, since color trends change constantly, you’ll want to stock up on flattering colors while they’re “in”. Bonus points if you manage to find basics in good quality and classic styles.

      In the meantime, you can buy your fast fashion options in the most flattering colors you can find, knowing that they are getting you through while you stalk long-term bigger ticket items. Nothing wrong with that!

  19. anon

    I am having a lot of neck and shoulder achiness, especially on one side. I suspect it’s from poor posture at work and carrying a big leather work bag. Other than switching to a professional-looking backpack, what else should I try? Specific stretches? Massage? I may have to go the PT route but I’d like to try a few things on my own first.

    • Anon

      Go on Youtube and look for “neck and shoulder mobility.” You’ll find a bunch of stuff with stretches, self-massage, etc.

    • Junior Associate

      Routine neck stretches for short durations (less than 10 seconds per stretch for the neck) can help, but you need to be careful not to cause even more tightening if neck is already in pain – I usually need to have the most achy parts massaged and loosened before I can actually move to do stretches, and my physical therapist usually adjusts the stretching routine depending on the specific neck muscle(s) in pain on any given day. I’ve found beginner sun salutation/back bend yoga sequences to be helpful too.

      Just a thought, It may be worth going the PT route sooner rather than later, especially if your pain is only on one side — if only to be checked for scoliosis and other structural issues that may be at play.

    • Mpls

      Yoga. Massage. Stretching. All things I have done for the same upper back/neck tightness. The key is regularity. I do yoga 1 day a week (could stand to do more). I have a 60 minute massage once a month – i definitely feel better when I do it monthly vs only when the muscles are angry. I have a list of stretches I should do, but don’t do as often as I should.

  20. Anonymous

    So this Elizabeth Warren plan of forgiving up to 50k of debt if you make less than 100k – what do we think? Like it? Hate it? I think it’s unfair to those who’ve already paid theirs off or those who aren’t millionaires but making 110k or 170k. In my sample size a lot of debt was by choice — choosing to go to private schools with no defined career path. If you had no idea what you wanted and ended up studying communications and picking up a 50k social media marketing job, that’s your problem that you did it at UPenn instead of Rutgers in state. Yet if you go to UPenn to study engineering or finance and your first job pays 125k in NYC or SF, you’re on your own with your debt?! And no I don’t liken this to healthcare. Lots of younger people are saying – denying this would be like denying the polio vaccine because prior generations couldn’t get it. Except you CHOOSE debt. I chose it for ivy schools and I paid it.

    • Anonymous

      I paid of 150k of debt. I’m not taking on more responsibility through higher taxes.

        • Seventh Sister

          My parents, who received the benefit of growing up in houses built and improved by FHA loans, attended excellent public schools K-12 in Kansas, attended their flagship state university for relative peanuts, obtained undergraduate and graduate degrees at state institutions, have savings backed by the FDIC, receive a mix of Social Security and the sweet sweet old federal pension income, certainly think that THEY never benefited from any government “handouts”. The think that no tax money should ever be spent on The Youths Today, because it just goes to Obama phones, lobsters bought with food stamps and free housing for illegal immigrants (where is that, Mom?).

    • Anon

      Any social program is going to be like this – there are those who missed out on it. Like social security – I’m sure there were plenty of people who could have really benefitted from it who just missed out. But we will never make progress if we stop ourselves from making changes for reasons like this.

      The validity of the plan should be based on other judgments, not potential sour grapes.

      • Anon

        Also I feel your “you CHOOSE debt” is coming from a very privileged point of view. There are plenty of students who can not afford to pay one penny for college. Should these students not be able to attend college and become productive professionals? If not, it just widens the wealth disparity in this country.

        • Anonymous

          Sort of unrelated, but I find the idea that you have to go to college to be a “productive professional” a bit lacking. Maybe college is the path for productivity for some people but I don’t think it’s the be all, end all that it’s made out to be.

          • Anon

            Anon at 1:06 – only if you consider 2/3 of the population poor. Many more adult Americans don’t have a college degree than do. And, for what it’s worth, now that I’ve left BigLaw, the person in my family among all my 20+ cousins who makes the most is a plumber. It is a really misconception that you need a college degree to make a good income.

          • Worry about yourself

            In hindsight, I do as well, and I do think a lot of people I know might’ve been better of at trade school, or majoring in more lucrative fields at cheaper schools. However, what did we know fifteen years ago, when our parents and our schools were pushing us to get into the best schools we could, major in something we were passionate about so we could start a career we loved? Maybe economists knew what was about to happen, but how could we, as teenagers, know the fate of the economy? A lot of us were pushed in one direction, and are now being shamed for it. We can’t go back in time to change the decisions that led us to take on debt, but forgiving that debt can mean that a lot more 30-40-somethings can effectively save for retirement and start families.

            I say “we” to refer to my generational peers, but to be clear, neither myself nor my partner have student debt at this point in our lives. But we have friends who are still struggling with their loans.

          • Anon

            Anon and Worry – Your anecdote is not data. You know someone who makes a lot of money without a college degree. Awesome. But the statistics show that the college educated population consistently and long-term makes far more than the non college educated population.

            But it’s cute how you think you know what’s best for “those people.”

          • busybee

            Anon at 2:32, your response is elitist and honestly just rude. Skilled trades can be well-paid, stable careers for a lot of people. Attitudes like yours only serve to stigmatize kids from going into trades. An awful lot of people went to college not because they’re academically inclined, but because for many years it was pushed as the “only” option (and still is, by you and many others). Encouraging more people to pursue trades could really help alleviate the student loan crisis. I’m married to one of “those people” by the way.

        • emeralds

          Yup. Lots of people graduate from state schools or community colleges with debt, because their families couldn’t (or wouldn’t) afford to pay their ways. If you want really horrifying stats, look at for-profit colleges, which target almost exclusively low-income students.

          It is pretty clear to me, OP, that you are not all that familiar with debt loads and patterns for people outside your own immediate sphere of the Ivy League and making a decision of Penn vs. Rutgers.* I hope that you consider doing some research into the realities of the students that this would be most likely to affect, before you write this off entirely.

          All of that said, I haven’t done much research into this specific policy and do not have a final opinion on Warren’s college funding plans vs. those of other candidates. But I know a lot of teachers/social workers/etc., who graduated from state schools, who are making $46k/year, whose lives would be changed by this. We need teachers and social workers. You must have (at minimum) a four-year degree to work in those fields. They are not well-compensated. Something has to give.

          *Seriously though, why is it always Rutgers in these posts?

          • Anon

            But those teachers and social workers already qualify for public interest loan forgiveness after they work 10 years. This would not provide any additional benefits to them

          • Anon

            The teacher and social worker loan forgiveness tends to be a local program that varies by jurisdiction and is not universal/countrywide

          • Anon

            Anon at 2:52 – there are federal public interest loan forgiveness programs. These people may also benefit from local programs, but there they fro sure qualify for the federal loan forgiveness program unless they have incredibility small loans or incredibility big salaries for their fields

          • Anonymous

            Please learn more about what’s happening with the loan forgiveness programs. Teachers, socials workers, etc. who do indeed qualify are not all getting their loans forgiven.

    • Anon

      I work at a major state university and most of our alums have pretty significant debt. Yes, people “choose” college more than they chose getting polio, but a college degree is essential for most fields, it’s not really a luxury item. I don’t think you can brush off student loan debt as “oh you chose to go to Harvard for full sticker price when you could have gone to Michigan on a big merit scholarship.” I’m sure that’s true for some people, but I’m sure there are stats out there and I think a pretty large percentage of student debt is held by graduates of schools you wouldn’t really think of as prestigious (even community colleges).

      • cbackson

        In fact, it’s a common misconception that public colleges are cheaper than elite private colleges. Often, for high-achieving low-income students, elite private colleges can offer better financial aid packages bc of their endowments. I’m an alum of a well-known, non-Ivy private university (think Wash U), which basically caps the cost of tuition at $15K for students with demonstrated need and family incomes under $100K. (If family income is under $50K, tuition for those students is zero.) It may apply to costs beyond tuition; I’m not sure about that.

        • Anon

          For truly poor students, it is possible to get a cheap college education. I come from a family with a HHI of $25k when I was in school, and my college costs were almost all covered by grants and scholarships. It is the middle class that struggles the most. I don’t know how a family making $100k in NY, SF, LA, DC, etc, could save to pay for the costs at a school like WashU.

          • cbackson

            Yup, the program at my alma mater was specifically designed to try to help the demographic that would be priced out of most grant programs but that couldn’t realistically cover our costs.

        • Anon

          Yes, I’ve spent all morning trying to explain this to my dad. he thinks Elizabeth Warren is “opening the floodgates” and letting anyone go to college, regardless of qualifications. I’m trying to explain to him that she’s essentially just proposing government scholarships for qualified students to match what the elite private schools can do with their endowments. Did Harvard etc lower their admissions standards when they said it was free for anyone making under $100k? Of course not. t’s not like you can just show Harvard a low-income tax return and they give you a scholarship, you obviously have to get in first. And this thing with public colleges would be the same.

      • Anon

        Although most of us on here can’t picture life without a college degree, I don’t think it’s fair to say that it is essential. Among American between the ages of 25 and34, only 37 percent have a bachelor’s degree. If you consider all Americans over 25, it is 33.4 percent.

        Those Americans are, on the average, already doing so much better than the 65+% that don’t have a degree.

        • Anon

          I don’t quite understand what you’re saying because you appear to be contradicting yourself. But there is a demonstrable long term earning gap between those with a college degree and those without. So those without a college degree are less likely to have funds to pay for their children to go to college. Which is why financial aid and debt forgiveness are part of the solution to narrowing the wealth gap. Not having programs like this in place just widens it further.

        • I Should Be Doing So Much Better, But....

          I work with operating engineers (crane operators to be specific) and every single one of them makes more than my college-educated ar$e. That includes the first-year apprentices. My sister went to college and, after deciding her major was not for her, is working as a machinist for a company that can’t keep up with the orders rolling in the door and is living very comfortably. I’m thinking I followed the wrong career path.

          Those of you scoffing at the non-college educated: I hope you know how to unclog a toilet, fix your car when it craps out on the highway, repair your a/c when it goes on the fritz on the hottest day of the year, and build your fancy new house from the ground up — carpentry, masonry, electrical, the works…. Those are some very highly-paid skills, and they are in some seriously high demand these days because everyone and his brother is going to college instead of taking up a trade.

          If I had it to do over again, I’d be sitting in one of those cranes or wrenching on cars. And laughing all the way to the bank.

    • Anonymous

      I think fairness is not a great concept to invoke when we’re explicitly trying to make things better than they were. But I would not mind if those of us who paid off our loans received some kind of consolation prize. I also think there’s a lot of unfairness in salaries anyway (people with completely non-essential jobs often enjoy higher salaries and greater security than the people whose work is the foundation for our quality of life).

      • Worry about yourself

        Right! There are two kinds of people, those who think fairness means making everyone suffer through the same things, and those who want to make the world more fair so people won’t have to suffer as much. I’d like to be in the latter group, but I can understand why people might be in the former.

    • Anon

      I assume it’s scaled, so if you make 110k you can get 40k of debt forgiven or something like that? Like taxes. I agree it’s not fair to forgive $50k if you make $99,900 and $0k if you make $101,000.

      • Cat

        There was an income cap after which you would disqualify for all relief, I think.

    • cbackson

      I am generally a pragmatist when it comes to policy. I think student debt is a massive drag on the economy, and that forgiving it will free up a ton of capital and improve the economic prospects of thousands, so I’m fine with it. Fairness isn’t something I think about a lot when it comes to policy decisions like this – I’m more concerned about what will achieve the desired social goal (here, increasing the ability of an entire generation to be economically self-sufficient and reducing the likelihood that parents who co-signed will need to depend on public support in their old age).

      If we forgive debt, though, we need to also take steps to prevent the issue from recurring, including capping what people can borrow from private lenders to finance education (as well as what can be borrow from subsidized loans). If you cap what people can borrow, colleges will keep tuition down, because they know that the population that can cover the difference out of pocket is miniscule compared to the population of college students. What you can’t do is what Trump is proposing (only capping the amount of subsidized debt) – you have to cap private borrowing too.

      • Anon

        The problem is that this is a very blunt tool for forgiveness of debt that may be a drag on the economy.

        For example, a person who earns $95,000 and has $50,000 of debt is more than capable of servicing that debt. There is little reason to forgive that debt. The same cannot be said of a person who earns $40k a year and has $40k of debt, or who earns $100k a year and has $250k of debt.

        I have no idea why Warren introduced something so simplistic, instead of something involving debt:income ratio or a rational overhaul of income-based repayment.

        • cbackson

          I haven’t dug into the details at all, but what you’re saying makes sense, and I also wonder why she didn’t propose something like that (other than that it’s less headline-able if it’s complicated…)

          • Anon

            Ironically, Harvard Law used to have a loan forgiveness system that was something like: 0% of your income below $20k, 10% of your income over $20k, 30% of your income over $50k. This could be adjusted for family size (so that a family of four would have a different income threshold than a family of one).

            We could do something similar, with a length of repayment based upon undergraduate or graduate school (ex., 10 years for undergrad debt, 20 years for graduate). The term could be based on the total debt load, which would provide an incentive for students to take on less debt (ex., if you go to a cheaper school, your repayment term is shorter).

            Regardless, it’s actually not that hard to come up with a system that provides incentives to take on less debt, provides relief for those truly unable to pay, and scales repayment to income. That is honestly what I find so ridiculous about these plans that allegedly smart politicians propose.

        • givemyregards

          I think the proposal is simple because she’s campaigning and it’s a simple thing for people to understand/remember. If a policy like this were to go in place, it would likely become more nuanced. Also, the policy we already have has a similar hard cap – over $80k and you can’t deduct interest on loans, etc. I love the idea of this policy – I wouldn’t benefit from it personally, but I still think it’s a great idea.

    • Anonymous

      I don’t like forgiving debt already incurred, with the exception of debt that should be covered by PSLF. The focus should be on (1) fixing PSLF so eligible debt is actually forgiven and (2) reducing the amount of debt students take on in the future by expanding Pell grants, setting up different incentives or regulatory structures so universities don’t raise tuition so much more quickly than inflation, changing the FAFSA formula so middle-class families don’t have unreasonably high EFCs, etc.

    • Anon

      I believe that state colleges and universities are too expensive now a days. Starting in the late 90s/early 00s, many states drastically cut the funding that they provided to state schools. Partially as a result of that, partially because of a desire to keep up with the Jones of private schools, and partially because they have no incentive to keep costs affordable (and I’m sure many other reasons), costs have drastically increased. I do think something has to be done to help people afford states colleges and universities again.

      Having said that, I still think the money could be used in so many more effective and beneficial ways. I’m sure this is partially because I agree that we should subsidize college for people who choose to study fields with only low-paying jobs. As I understand it, the plan is a blanket offer. That seems stupid to me. Instead, I would like to increase the money spent on grants and scholarships and loan forgiveness for those in public interest fields (and via the 20 year forgiveness plan). The amount available via pell grants has barely increased since I was in college almost 20 years ago, when school costs have drastically increased. That is ridiculous.

      I also think that it is focused on a small segment of our society when there are so many worse issues faced in this country. If we instead did something about health care costs, for example, many people would be able to divert the thousands they spend a year on health care to paying off their student loans. And it would benefit a lot broader of a group of people.

      • anonshmanon

        I don’t think that this only focuses on a small segment of society. According to the 2015 census, 91% of under 25-29 year olds finish high school and could therefore go to college. 33% of people over 25 have a college degree, and that number is steadily rising, in fact it has increased fivefold since 1940. Just assuming the same steady rise, 4 years from now when a hypothetical President Warren has fought this hypothetical debt relief through Congress, this would affect the 40% of young people going to college. And assume this program really does come to pass, one could imagine that more families are able to send their kids to college than right now.

    • Anon

      I think that the elites are laughing all the way to the bank as the rest of us tear each other apart over what’s “fair.” Canceling student loan debt would be a huge boon to the economy, but so many people are willing to cut off their noses to spite their faces (“it’s not fairrrrr, I paid my debt and I was smart and why can’t poor people pay theirs too?”) If anyone would stop and notice that European countries have somehow managed to make college tuition-free through sensible taxation and acknowledgement that it’s good to help all people access education, we might be a lot better off here in the U.S. I don’t know if we’ll get there because people are too eager to use “fair” (based on their own personal experience) as the standard rather than “what’s best for society moving forward.”

      • Anonymous

        You’re right, I’m not worried about society. I’m worried about MY bills and MY economic standing. I have no desire to live in Europe or Canada. Those that desire crazy taxes to so they can get everything for “free” from the government can go live in Europe or Canada.

        • Anonymous

          Umm.. you realize our taxes aren’t actually that much higher right? It’s not like double – it’s like 5-10% more in most cases.

          • Anon

            For Canada, you’re right. For some countries in Europe, not so much. Sweden has an income tax rate of 60% on income over about $75,000. That’s well more than double the tax in the US. (I am not saying this is bad. Just stating facts.)

      • Anonymous

        But this is NOT how European countries make their universities free. They have publically funded universities that are tutition free (just like no tutition for high school in US). Private universities by in large are not free. Parents are obligated to support their kids with living expenses unless they earn below a certain amount and below that amount, the kids get a state support in a set amount that allows them to live frugally with roommates.

        The solution is not debt forgiveness, it is public university tutition waiver for students with parents below a certain income threshold (or other exceptions).

      • Worry about yourself

        Especially since the debt forgiveness would be coming from a tax on the ultra-wealthy, and most people in that demographic inherited most of their wealth, and some had excellent support in turning their idea into a successful, multi-billion dollar company. Those in the latter group would do well to remember the systems in place that helped them achieve that success.

    • anon

      It seems like a blank check to academia to me. Perhaps there’s some element I missed but I do not understand how her plan would prevent private college tuition costs from rising. This approach doesn’t resolve the student loan burden, it just shifts it to a different (slightly higher income) group of people as universities increase their tuition and fees as the net willingness to pay increases once the lowest-earning cohort is no longer part of the paying customer set. I’m strongly opposed to forgiveness alone and would prefer something that hits the actual root of the problem of ridiculous tuition.

    • Anon

      I paid off my substantial student debt by making a lot of salaries and feel ok with forgiving stuff. Making the world better means that there are people that benefit from things you didn’t.

      My bigger issue is this does nothing to address the problem that college is too expensive. I’d be more on board with a program that puts colleges on the hook for debt that doesn’t get repaid. Since schools can pretty much charge whatever they want knowing the government will loan money to fill in the gaps, they have no motivation to keep costs in check. If they had more skin in the game maybe they would think twice before raising tuition just because they can.

      • Anon

        Yeah, I do want to see colleges reduce their administrative bloat and they certainly have no incentive to do so right now. I don’t really want colleges to take on EVERYTHING that students need (such as extensive mental health programming) when some of those services should be handled elsewhere in the community. We also don’t need colleges to have five or six different departments dedicated to “inclusion” (with payroll alone for those offices in the millions) when what would really be inclusive is making college cheaper.

        • Anon

          ” when what would really be inclusive is making college cheaper.”

          PREACH.

    • Anonymous

      This is ridiculous. There should be no caps and no forgiveness. Own your choices!

      • Anonymous

        Exactly. If you felt it was a good idea to spend 200k on that liberal arts degree, more power to you. Now deal with your choice.

        • emeralds

          But that’s not what most people do, though. They go to public schools, want to focus on career preparedness, and graduate with an average of around $38,000 in debt. The most popular major in the US is business.

          Liberal arts enrollments are declining at most public universities, outside of the very top tiers (how much you/we/society should care about that is up for vigorous debate). Enrollments at small liberal arts colleges are down, too, again outside of the top-flight institutions; the phrase “existential crisis” is being thrown around, and it is not an exaggeration.

          Many high school students in America are also not equipped to understand the reality of servicing student loan debt, nor do their schools have the resources to provide them the level of advising that could close the gap since let’s be real, many parents don’t have that level of financial literacy, either. Remember that statistically, we are not talking about kids in Chevy Chase or Westchester County whose parents are affluent, college-educated professionals.

    • Anonymous

      Is there another way to reduce the burden of the cost of education outside of debt forgiveness? I just feel like there are too many people getting degrees as it is, because they have been taught that student loan debt is “good” debt. Frankly, I think we make it too easy for kids (whose parents might not know to advise them better) to get a useless degree (say, art history or library studies). I am not sure if a degree in art history is worth $180k. But even when it comes to more trade-related degrees (like say, a nurse practitioner), I still think part of the problem right now is that there are too many people getting those degrees who aren’t certain that is the field they want to go into and who aren’t certain of the level of sacrifice it will take to pay off their loans. I guess what i am saying that getting a college education is a big purchase with a significant cost–and it isn’t easy and it requires sacrifice. I am not sure if people understand that today, and I don’t think that creating loan forgiveness programs will help that understanding. It just seems like it will further the entitlement mentality.

      • Anonymous

        Part of the problem is that there’s no way to get the “useless” degree at a reasonable cost. I think it’s great if, say, there are people who can read hieroglyphs and prepare and translate an edition of a newly discovered papyrus. Rock on. But the tuition for such a program should be lower. Such a small percentage of tuition goes to faculty (many of whom are adjuncts) that we need to ask what exactly students are paying for.

        • Anon

          My husband is a tenured professor and points out that he pays for his salary in one intro class. Everything else he teaches goes to overhead (buildings, grounds, etc. – which is understandable, since you can’t teach outside), massive administrative bloat, etc.

      • Anon

        Yes to this. I think the part that I find most unfair is that we don’t trust an 18 year old to drink alcohol but it’s their “choice” if they sign huge student loans after being told that college is the answer for 12 years in school.

        I think the problem is bigger than just forgiving loans. Also to the poster who mentioned that Europe makes it work for college to be free – one of the big reasons that works is it’s not a thing that “everyone” goes to college.

        • Anonymous

          A BA is the new high school diploma. There was a time when a high school diploma meant that a prospective employee was responsible and organized enough to make it through high school and could at least read, write, and handle a calculator. Now a high school degree doesn’t always mean a whole lot (many students had no choice but to go through the motions to graduate), and more and more jobs want to see at least a BA as evidence of the same basic skill set. I think we need better primary and secondary schools (not just in good neighborhoods) and rethink how necessary college really is. But right now we’re asking many people to pay tuition for the same education that K through 12 public schools used to provide. The other piece of this is that employers used to provide much of the training that they now expect students to have acquired in a degree program (and then they complain when it doesn’t match up as closely with their needs!).

          • Anon

            +1 id rather we focus on improving the k-12 education everywhere and stop making a BA a prerequisite for a lot of entry level jobs

        • Anonymous

          Right but that’s because their high schools are set up to actually prepare you for real life and are more like community colleges. You can go to a high school and graduate with a qualification to be a preschool teacher, architectural technician, electricial apprentice etc. Yes college is low cost or free but kids who ‘can’t’ go to university are provide with educations that assist them with entry into the jobs market.

      • anonshmanon

        I am all for ensuring young people have a chance to find the right thing for them rather than jumping into the next best degree, but in general, I don’t see such a huge problem with more people getting some form of higher education. Technology has been and will keep eliminating so, so many jobs that require no training. It used to be a privilege to read and write some time ago. Not very long ago, it used to be unusual to know your way around a computer. We are inevitably going into a more educated, more specialized direction.
        I also see (life-long) education as a foundational value, which correlates positively with so many other things (health, income, views on equity), that making education more accessible is a major priority for me.

        • Anon

          Eh I have no “problem” with higher education being funded I just think there are a ton of things that we should prioritize. I have a hard time saying we need to fund college education when there are hungry kids whose family’s can’t afford food, sick people who can’t afford medicine, people who don’t know how to read, etc.

          Also I think a lot of the positive correlations of a college education disappear or are significantly reduced once you control for family wealth, class and race. College has historically been (and still is) not something everyone has access to

    • Anon

      The proposition is ridiculous because it entirely bypasses the real issue which is that education costs are grossly inflated. The very reason it costs $100K to go to a state school now vs twenty years ago when it was $20K is because credit is so easily available and middle class people are willing to do anything to get their kids through college. Forgiving $50K simply means that now it will cost $150 to go to a state school. This is just another application of the Parkinson’s principle. In this case, costs will inflate to match all the free money allotted.

    • Seventh Sister

      I didn’t get paid maternity leave, but I support it (and family leave in general). I didn’t get subsidized daycare or preschool, but I support it. Because I consolidated my student loans, I’m not eligible for PSLF, but I still support it. The devil is in the details, for sure, but the costs are out of control and her idea is a good start.

      • Anon

        Thank you for your first two sentences. Some of the “I suffered so others shall too” on this thread is very frustrating and is why things like hazing still exist.

  21. Anonymous

    How do you plan for future car purchases? We are 8-10 years away from needing new ones but curious how others do it. For those of you who pay cash for cars, where does the money come from, e.g., stocks, bonuses, a separate savings account just for car stuff?

    • Anon

      If you’re 8 – 10 yrs out, you can just determine an absolute ceiling on purchase price (by looking at a range of new to used cars in the type you want) squirrel away a certain amount per month now – seems way easier than trying to bet on stocks or bonuses or anything of the sort. A $30,000 car cash in 8 yrs is a little over $300 a month now – more than that if you put in a brokerage account and there is no major downturn (note – there is a predicted downturn soon, don’t put all this money in a brokerage account now).

    • anon a mouse

      We had a car loan years ago, and when the loan was paid off, we kept diverting that same amount from my paycheck to a high-yield savings account. Once we had 60% of a new car in the savings account, we moved most of it to the stock market, and then kept saving the rest in the HYSA. That also becomes our “car repair fund” if needed. The trick is, once you get used to having a car loan, don’t add it back to your budget. Just keep it as automatic savings.

    • Anon

      I’ve purchased two cars in my life. The first was when I was in college, and I saved up till I could afford an older car outright. The second time, I used a biglaw bonus to buy it. I don’t plan to ever take out a loan for a car, but I would not want to cash out investments either. For that reason and others, I have a large emergency fund even though my job is pretty secure now. Personally, I would take the money for a new car out of my emergency fund.

      In your situation, I would consider how long it will take you to save the money for the new car. Depending on that answer, I would start saving on that timeline and put it in a high-interest rate savings account. But I wouldn’t otherwise stop your normal savings for retirement and kids, but instead decrease discretionarily spending.

    • Anonymous

      I mean, the last time I bought a car, the interest rate on the loan was 1.98%. I would not shell out cash to cover 100% of the purchase when that money could be earning more than 2% in the market. I put down a substantial enough down payment (~$10k) to cover depreciation, though, just in case I managed to total the car within the first couple months of owning it (and actually – that almost happened, I ran over part of a deer (don’t ask, it was gross) like 2 months after getting the car!).

      • Anonymous

        This is our philosophy too. We’ve got an interest free loan on our current car which we bought new. My spouse drives a lot for work and can’t have a car that is more than x years old per company policy so we have accepted that we will probably always have a car payment.

    • Anonymous

      $200 a month into our emergency savings fund but earmarked for car on our financial spreadsheets. Pull out car related $ to buy car in 10ish years. Helps account earn more interest in the meantime and we don’t have to pay fees on an additional separate account. Plus extra funds available if emergency occurs and we can put off car purchase for a year or two.

    • Anonymous

      We paid cash for our last car and intend to continue doing so in the future. It would be more rational to take out a low-interest loan and invest to earn a higher return, but my husband believes all debt other than a primary mortgage is risky and immoral, and a car loan would make him insufferably anxious.

      We have a single on-line high-yield savings account that contains our emergency fund plus savings for short-term goals such as car purchases, vacations, and home repairs. All of our regular non-retirement savings, plus “extra” money such as bonuses, goes in the savings account. Any money that’s going into the market goes into our tax-advantaged retirement accounts (we don’t make enough to max those accounts, maintain our emergency fund, save for short-term goals in cash, AND put extra into the market). We don’t spend more than a couple of years saving up for a new car, so the time horizon isn’t long enough to justify risking that money in the market.

  22. Anonymous

    Does anyone actually own these pants? Bloomingdales only has one review (although it is positive). Nordstrom also has only one review (negative). Would like to hear how they fit and hold up.

    • Anonymous

      I’m also curious. I’m an Eileen Fisher slim crepe pant devotee but I wouldn’t mind mixing it up if these are awesome.

    • pugsnbourbon

      I’m also curious. I’m an Eileen Fisher slim crepe pant devotee but I wouldn’t mind mixing it up if these are awesome.

      • anon

        These look alot like ones that Talbots came out with last year….I have 3 pairs and love them. Got them on sale for about $35 each….can’t find them on the web site right now but they will probably come back in the fall. They have stretch and vertical pintuck, and side zipper.

    • Anonymous

      They are really well made, I have pants from this brand that I have been wearing for years. NM Last Call and Saks Off Fifth have some pieces from this brand at lower prices.

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