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Our daily workwear reports suggest one piece of work-appropriate attire in a range of prices.
If you’ve never been a “less is more” kind of dresser, this top might be for you. I’m firmly in the “more is more” camp and rarely encounter a ruffle, flouncy sleeve, or embellishment that I don’t like.
I worked in a firm that had a business formal wardrobe until well into the 2010s, and one of my favorite tricks for sneaking in a little personal style was to add some texture, whether it was through ruffles, pindots, or draping.
This top from Mille would pair nicely with a skirt suit if you’re looking to add a little fun to a formal look.
The top is $178 at Mille and comes in sizes XXS–XL.
Psst: Hunting in general for blouses with interesting prints or textures? Some of the reader favorite brands over the years include L'Agence, L'Amour Vert, Equipment, and Tucker NYC. On the more affordable side, check out NYDJ, Halogen, Loft, and Kut from the Kloth.
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Anon
I feel like Fetterman will have big Belichick fashion energy in the Senate.
Anon
I think you’re spot on. And I’m crying with laughter.
Anon
I cannot wait
Anon
Is there not a dress code on the Senate floor?
MagicUnicorn
PSA that noxgear has a major sale on their lighted running vests.
anon
Runners, these are amazing. An essential piece of gear when you’re running in the dark.
Chl
Thanks! Can anyone comment on their thoughts for sizing? I’m like a size 8 and their chart puts me at a small. If you’re on the cusp would you size up or down?
Anon
I’m curious about this as well. I’m a walker so not as concerned about movement as a runner would be, but want it to fit over a puffy jacket on cold days, and a t shirt on warm days. Their size chart based on shirt sizes puts me at a small but chest measurement puts me at a medium.
anon
I think you could size down. They’re pretty adjustable.
Anonymous
For walkers too! They also make a dog vest.
brokentoe
+1 on the dog vests. People stop us all the time to ask where we bought our dogs’ vests. They are great!
Anonymous
Thanks!
Anon
Do they help you with seeing the road in front of you or do you still need a headlamp? I do get that they give a lot more visibility to cars that you’re out there, but I can’t tell if I’d be able to use them to see by (walking the dog in the dark 2x day in an area where I feel like I am doomed to be hit eventually). My headlamp helps me to see but doesn’t make me that visible unless the car is heading towards me.
anon
There’s an optional light that you attach to the vest, which I just ordered. Can report back once it arrives, but I’m hopeful that it will be better than a headlamp!
Anonymous
Haven’t tried the ones with an extra light but no, the main piece doesn’t help with seeing where you’re going. I LOVE my Noxgear– it’s saved my life a few times, I’m quite sure, but it’s basically stringing together a bunch of really bright glow sticks together. Awesome for being seen (especially when on flashing or in a group) but not good for not tripping on obstacles in front of you.
Coach Laura
I like wearing a headlamp both biking and walking/jogging because I can swivel my head and focus it on a car. Often I need to know if a driver sees me or not and the light attracts their attention.
Gail the Goldfish
I wear mine plus a headlamp (though I am going to order the light that attaches to it). The vests are bright enough you can see not to trip over things right in front of you but not bright enough to really see details more than a few feet in front.
anon
Thank you, just ordered one (plus the waist light) – I was feeling unsafe on my run last night and you reminded me that I was planning to order something like this!
Senior Attorney
Same here! Now that it’s dark so early there’s no way to get all my steps in without going out in the dark, and there are no sidewalks in my neighborhood!
I hate pants
Never heard of these. A good Xmas gift for bikers?
Anonymous
Thanks – I just picked one up for biking at night!
anon
Reporting in from Harris County where we are run by incompetent people who were all reelected!
Anon
I’m sorry to hear that.
Anonymous
You can vote for a competent Houston mayor (Edwards!!) next year.
anon
heartbreaking
Anon
honestly, at least the dems won something. i’m sick of Cruz and Abbott, who in my opinion are despicable human beings. and DH used to work with Hidalgo’s opponent and he was not a fan
anon
what a terrible reason to vote for a candidate who has shown no ability for leadership
anon1
I actually went to West Point with Alexandra and have had many opportunities to interact with her since then. I would vote for a paper towel before I voted for her. Lina wasn’t great but Alexandra is much worse.
In-House in Houston
I feel all of this. I campaigned heavily for Beto. I’m disgusted that Abbott, Patrick and that piece of crap AG were re-elected.
anon
Candidly I thought hidalgo and many of our local candidates did a pretty poor job. I campained and voted for her because I can’t tolerate a republican majority in our city govt too. I just cross my fingers that withour enormous majority now we don’t do foolish things like spend ourselves into oblivion. Sigh.
Anon
Thank you to the poster that let us know that the Girl on the Go trench was on sale. I bought one and have been using it for a week or so, and it’s a great jacket!
Anonymous
I have a NWT one in grey (size TM) on Poshmark is anyone is looking. Make me an offer for half of whatever they are going for on the Eddie Bauer site and I’ll take it.
Anon
That still sounds unrealistically high – I can return to a store not a posh seller. The only way I’d pay that much would be for a special, can’t be purchased again item because the retailer doesn’t make it.
Anonymous
Like so don’t buy it then? or make a lower offer? It’s pretty easy to reposh something if you don’t like it. Assuming Eddie Bauer is having a 40 or 50 % off sale, it’s still pricing it at 25% of usual retail, which if someone knows their size is a solid offer.
Anon
+1
anon
Ugh, our local and state election results were so disappointing, yet predictable. Blue dot in a red sea, and all that.
Anonymous
Same. The most annoying thing is we elect judges, and a few years the Republican legislature in their infinite wisdom (/sarcasm) decided to add party affiliations to judicial elections. So my state just elected someone to the state supreme court who has no judicial experience because he had an R next to his name over the D incumbent that most lawyers in the state will tell you was widely liked and considered not partisan. Sigh.
anon
I get that but I will say that our judges ARE political, at least the criminal ones. The Dem party has a different theory on crime than the Rep party.
Anon
That may be, but I come from a country where judges are very corrupt and rule of law is less of a thing (so your rights exist on paper, but ask Britney Griner how they are IRL). I like a judge who also is very into making the prosecutors prove up their case and protects my rights. Catch-and-release isn’t real justice either and makes some dangerous neighborhoods constantly dangerous (a guy released pending trial fired tons of shots into an occupied house and while they had an issue with an occupant, could easily have hit bystanders and other people in that house).
Anon
I do not want political judges. I want judges. Something about politics makes judges just seem as dirty as the rest of politicians.
Anon
Agree. Fortunately all the judges in my area (Bay Area) were running unopposed.
Anon
In my city, many offices had one person running for them. I guess it’s so gerrymandered that no one bothers running from the other party. Still, I’d like a choice as a voter. Also, why does my state elect all judges and make all races partisan races (like is a D judge for traffic court better than an R judge, or vice versa). Blue city in purple state.
ALT
Are you also in Georgia? What a depressing, although not wholly unexpected, result.
Anon
I hate that judges are elected.
anon
I have a bad habit of ruminating on upsetting events and conversations long after they’re over. I can’t stand this about myself and know it’s not good for me. Any thoughts on breaking this habit and just moving on? The knowledge that I’m letting people live “rent-free” in my head isn’t doing much for me.
Ses
I do this too. I find that the old “write a letter and burn it” method (and digital equivalents) works when I make myself do it. Even though I always think it’s stupid and won’t work, or that I’m being dramatic.
Making up a way of solving the problem lets your brain move on. Even if there’s no real-world impact to your solution.
I hate pants
+1
OP – I’m the same, and it’s rough.
But it is amazing how effective this can be. I usually type mine. Then delete. Can feel very light…. Some people can just “imagine” their bad thoughts as something like a bird, and watch them fly away but that is some higher level CBT $hit.
Making checklists is also extremely soothing, when my head is racing and ruminating with all the things/problems that need to be done and I’m not sure how to do them. My checklists can include things as easy/benign as “take shower”, pay property taxes, and then zingers like “find new career”. Just writing them down helps.
Clementine
Using EMDR techniques to process helped me. The simplest version of this is going on an outside run or walk, talk about the issue, and then make a conscious decision to not talk about it at the end. The combination of movement + your eyes moving + processing is key for me.
Anon
Are those sequential, or do you talk about it while you’re running or walking?
Clementine
The latter.
Anon
I find writing in a journal helpful. Usually either writing it down makes me think the situation isn’t that bad and it’s silly to ruminate over it, or else I get tired of writing all the details down and then move on to something more fun.
Monday
+1. There’s also a company called Therapy Notebooks that makes a journal specifically for dealing with anxiety. Each situation you write about it has a worksheet to fill out about your anxiety and what else is going on. (This would be for someone who doesn’t like open-ended journaling.)
Anonymous
Hey girl, the answer is therapy
Anon
This is really patronising.
Woman, not girl, and she is asking for the same tips you’d hear from a therapist or that people use to break this common habit.
Anon
I don’t think she means to be patronizing. The hey girl is a common phrase from a meme.
Friday, please
This is a sign of anxiety, so if any of these other tips don’t work and it’s still bothering you, consider addressing the anxiety.
Ness
Maybe this article is helpfull https://www.stylist.co.uk/life/rumination-sleep-problems-causes-advice/729490
Anon
For me, this isn’t really anxiety. I don’t fully process everything that happens while it’s happening (ADHD/ND issues), so my brain catches up on it later. For me it helped me to recognize that this is what was happening — that my brain wasn’t willing to let things go until it had finished doing the normal amount of processing that anyone else would have done at the time of the conversation. Upsetting conversations just take a little more thought because they’re higher stakes. When a therapist once taught me to just stop doing this, I ended up having dreams that replayed the conversations instead (not really an upgrade!), so now I kind of let my brain do what it wants with more of a mindfulness perspective.
anon
This is very interesting! I don’t have ADHD, that I know of, but I know that it can take me awhile to process things so maybe that’s what is happening here.
Anon
It’s worth considering!
Personally I feel like once I was more accepting of it, it happened less, because I could process things all the way once, instead of falling into a cycle of trying not to, pushing it aside, and then it coming back again. Now it’s more like “okay my brain is doing its thing, time to play some candy crush (or whatever) so that negative interaction can be properly processed and filed away.”
Hypatia
I think digging a bit deeper as to why you’re doing this might help. For example. I often have ‘conversations’ with my mom. Why? Because my mom is never going to hear or listen to me on some things, so the only safe place I can have those conversations is with myself. So when I start having those conversations in my head, I recognize them for what they are – an attempt at catharsis and resolution, a way to be heard, and treat myself kindly as a result. What unmet need is causing the rumination – this might help you find ways to respond.
Puffy Shirt
But I don’t wanna be a pirate!
Anon
HA!
I hate pants
HA
I wore a puffy-ish shirt to school once back in the 90’s, and all day people asked me…. “Did you see Seinfeld last night?”
Anon
As a Pennsylvanian I am on cloud 9 today. I was pretty confident about Shapiro but not so much about Fetterman! Several friends from other states have texted me thanking PA. I was joking that between voting for Biden in 2020, flipping our senate seat this year (and less relevant for others, but keeping the governorship dem), the other states cannot complain about us for the next 2 years.
anon
Congrats! I teared up during Fetterman’s thank you speech. It’s a storybook ending to a campaign that was hard to watch.
Anon
Saaaaaaaaame. I am wearing my favorite Woolrich plaid fleece and gold hoop earrings in celebration lol
anon
Full disclosure: I am a Republican living across the country. But I watched the debate and was just shocked at how poorly it went for Fetterman. So I am truly curious: what is the hope here? He will step down? He will get better? His condition and inarticulateness doesn’t really matter? You don’t really care because at least he isn’t Oz?
Anon
Honestly, it is probably harder (much harder) to work in Waffle House than be a Senator. Your job is, what, voting and fundraising? I think he can do that (I say that as a Republican, but one who is likes a divided government). The bar is not that high. Woodrow Wilson had a stroke in the White House and his wife basically ran the country and kept it on the down-low. He looks healthy, so if Strom Thurmond can do this job up until almost his death, Fetterman should be fine. I really hope he is.
Anonymous
Or Chuck Grassley, who at 89 was just reelected…
Anon
Or Biden.
Anonymous
Fair. I would not be opposed to upper age limits for all 3 branches of government. Can you have sharp 90 year olds, sure, but statistically speaking, probably not the best idea.
Anon
Iowan here. A lot of people think Grassley is going to step down fairly soon, paving the way for the governor to appoint his grandson, who has political aspirations of his own, to the seat. Iowa is pretty red but the Dems had a very strong US Senate candidate this year, and people don’t love political dynasties in general, so Grassley Jr would have been a lot more vulnerable than Chuck.
NYCanon
I am curious about this too. Not particularly a fan of Oz, but I had the same thoughts following the debate.
Anon
OP here, I was a Republican until 2014 and now I’m fully “vote blue no matter who”. I prefer more moderate candidates in executive positions and am okay with more liberal candidates in legislative bodies.
So yes, to me the big thing was that he’s not Oz. Too much at stake for a R Senate for me.
I actually voted for Lamb in the primary because I was concerned about the implications of the stroke on electability.
However, I also feel confident that thé stroke has impacted his communication skills but not his cognition and thus he is fit to serve as a senator.
Anon
Since you asked, here’s my point of view: I voted for him. He did terribly in the debate. However, I think he still has his wits about him despite his auditory processing issues. I think he can still do the job with accommodations like captioning.
Fetterman is not a candidate known for eloquent public speaking in the first place so it doesn’t really matter to me how slick he seems. Oz is a great speaker, but I care about the message more than how it’s said. Otherwise I’d be loading myself up with raspberry ketones or whatever snake oil it was that he was shilling.
Anon
Just because he (probably temporarily) can’t rapidly process speech in a very particular way doesn’t mean that he’s incapable. Strokes cause damage in very specific ways that don’t necessarily impact his overall capacity to serve as a senator. I haven’t had a stroke, but I do take a m*graine drug that has some weird effects on my verbal processing that somewhat remind me of this. I have some issues with word finding and make an huge number of typos compared to when I’m not taking the medication, but nothing else about me is different or less intelligent than it was before, other than being in less pain and having to do a lot of spell checking. Brains are weird! I’m actually glad to see people paying more attention to disability and accommodation issues because of this and wish him the best in his recovery.
Anon
Haha, and I caught at least one typo in this post. The downside is that more slip through on my phone!
anon
This! There’s no reason to expect that he can’t do the job, and he’s not a candidate who was very articulate anyway. His ideas are great, though, and his ability to work with all kinds of people and build coalitions gives me hope.
Anon
I recovered from aphasia from another cause. Though I think I still make more typos than before!
I have a friend who recovered fully (as far as I can tell) from a stroke she had in her 30s. She has a PhD and her work involves a lot of research and writing.
Unless the problem with someone’s performance in the debates is that they said a lot of awful things, debates don’t mean that much to me. I think of all the research on job interviews and how the really slick interviewees can still be terrible employees for any job whose skills are not the same as the skills that make someone a good interviewee.
Anon
I’m not in PA but I don’t think speech issues will impact his ability to do the job.
Debates don’t really matter to most people. Trump was crushed in debates and still won in 2016. He performed better in debates in 2020 (or at least people perceived it that way because his behavior was no longer shocking). He still lost. They don’t have the significance some people think they do.
Anonymous
The job of a senator isn’t actually engaging in debates all day! I am unconcerned.
Anon
Thinking one debate performance is equal to future job performance is like thinking your LSAT score tells you how good you’ll be as a lawyer.
Anon
Yup.
anon
I don’t think that, for the record. But I do think being able to articulate well is part of the job.
Anon
Lol, Sarah Palin destroyed that job requirement.
Also ffs, he’s recovering from a medical event. It’s not like he’s stupid.
Anon
as a republican living across the country can you help me understand what keeps you voting republican with the party as it currently is?
Anonymous
I will vote for a ham sandwich that will protect my right to choose and that will respect the results of a free and fair election. There is no Republican in this country that can do those things.
Anon
I would have voted for a ham sandwich over Oz.
Anonymous
Oz doesn’t even live in PA. He has no connection to the state. He cares not one whit about the state or it’s residents. He just wants to be the next TV personality turned president. I don’t want to vote for someone who only wants power for power’s sake.
Anon
Fetterman’s campaign did a good job of highlighting this.
Anonymous
How do you think Dems can better reach rural Americans? In my state the cities went blue and the rest of the state went red. I can understand that all of the progressive things I like about the D party are not appealing to most people in rural America. But the Republicans aren’t going to do anything to help those people either. So… what should the Ds do?
Anon
It would help if D candidates looked like Fetterman — a regular (but very tall) person who looks like he is one of the people who actually lives there. A lot of all types of candidates roll into small towns complaining about how expensive it is to shop at Whole Foods and look like they’ve never been to a fish fry or even a Food Lion. More hoodies and Carhart.
Anon
Start with not calling rural voters bitter clingers and deplorables. Start with the low-hanging fruit.
Mar
As a D, I hate to admit it, but this, this, this. You have to respect people – and listen to their concerns – before you can help them. A good place to start is that there is a lot worth valuing in the small-town rural lifestyle.
Anon
I think you have to respect them publicly. Calling Trump voters deplorable in my opinion is accurate but I wouldn’t say that publicly especially if I was up for election! My take is a little more pessimistic. Ok very pessimistic. I feel defeated and burnt out. If rural America still wants to vote for republicans knowing they will gut reproductive rights, I can’t help them anymore. I can still afford to take a week off of work and fly to Canada if I needed one or a friend needed me to go with her. They won’t be so lucky. I feel like I just can’t help people anymore. What is that saying, you can lead a camel to water but can’t make them drink it?
Anon
It’s pretty much a 50-50 country, even in rural areas. It isn’t as monolithic as you think. Many rural areas in my state are also majority black.
Anon
People can sense the disdain and condescension.
PolyD
I might pose this in the afternoon, but I think the condescension and disdain that “coastal elites” allegedly have for rural voters is very overstated. Sure, we are frustrated by how many MAGA voters seem to vote against their best interests, but I run with a lot of elites and have never heard them disparage rural voters. I hear more talk about how can we help areas where towns have been hollowed out by loss of jobs and large energy extraction companies ruining the environment.
I guess it sounds condescending to say people are voting against their own interests, but it is factually true in some cases.
I personally think there is a lot more hostility against liberals from conservatives than vice versa. The assassination attempt on Pelosi was the pinnacle, but remember the Trump trucks that ran one of Biden’s campaign buses off the road? The accusations of groomer and pedophile regularly thrown at anyone who isn’t a white Republican? I don’t know why the media never does stories about why liberals vote the way they do and their motivation. I guess it is more fun to go hear rural voters spout ugly things about liberals.
Anon
Re PolyD — I went to NYU and routinely heard my fellow students ridicule people like me (family is from one of the poorest counties in the SEUS).
anon
There was also a Kavanaugh attempt and the Scalise shooting that was literally admitted to be bc they were Republicans, and others, so you can’t just pick the (awful, inexcusable) things that one side does and say they are worse. Both sides are awful on that front, unfortunately.
Anon
Talking about how to help people isn’t at all inconsistent with looking down on them though.
I find it soo awkward to hang around coastal elites expressing sympathy for people they read about in a book.
Anon
I live in NC and a candidate’s house was shot into and how his kids have been sent away to their grandparents. This is in a smaller town that is near rural areas but not rural itself, so I’m pretty sure that the candidate is R. Things have gotten totally out of hand. I would never, ever run for any office before this, but especially now.
Anonymous
“I personally think there is a lot more hostility against liberals from conservatives than vice versa. “
This times eleven billion.
I also think that what comes across as “condescending” is a genuine attempt to understand. As a New Yorker we know that an entire borough is blood red and we know darn well why. But yet we’re clinging to these accounts of why rural people vote like they do in Louisiana and Pennsylvania with an genuine attempt at understanding something about their religion or education or circumstance. So now we’re making their entire life experience from education to financial prospects to their relationship with religion a part of that analysis so that we can tell ourselves there is a good reason why they vote the way they do. And it comes across condescending like we’re othering them and like they can’t be expected to know better.
They’re red for the same reason stated island is folks. There isn’t that much more to understand.
Seventh Sister
Yeah, the condescension can be palpable/obvious and doesn’t help D candidates in rural areas. I think this was one of the reasons Obama did so well. For the most part, he just didn’t come off as someone that genuinely thought he was “better” than other people.
Anon
I think that this is doomed to fail when NYers lump people from Staten Island in with bitter clingers and deplorables.
NYC
PolyD, I’m another non-native New Yorker who is friends with and married into NY based families. I routinely hear comments about southern people being less than (stupider, less sophisticated etc). I also hear similar political comments about people from red states. It’s not pretty
anon
oh so white. cool cool cool
anon
Obama did really well with rural voters, for the record. She didn’t say white.
NYC
Wes Moore also came across as a relatable candidate in a way Anon at 9:45 described.
anon
And honestly, not making everything about race. Your only response to what could be an intelligent conversation was a sarcastic and unnecessary comment about race. That’s the type of thing that drives many moderates away from the Democratic Party.
Anon
This.
Anon
+1
Anon
I am a big leftie progressive liberal, I live in Berkeley FFS, and I didn’t think she was saying white either. This response was weird.
Anon
Where do you live that rural = white? Vermont? Oregon?
In the SEUS, rural includes many black people and hispanic immigrants. And now, retirees of all stripes from the NEUS and rust belt who have kids in Charlotte, Raleigh, and Atlanta.
Anonymous
I’m in OH – according to the demographic map the vast majority of the state is white with the exception of cities.
pugsnbourbon
You’re right about the SE, but huge rural swaths of the US are predominantly white: Ohio, Indiana, Iowa, the northern Plains states, etc.
Anon
Are the cities that much less white in places like Iowa though?
Anon
Iowa is very white but Indiana and Ohio have large Black populations in the cities.
Anonymous
And here is a perfect example of why Democrats aren’t reaching these voters.
Anon
Without deep societal change across the board, starting with better education and separation of church and state, I don’t think anything can change.
Anonymous
There’s not much to be done. Dems should focus on consolidating and strengthening urban vote. Rural voters who vote more conservatively than urban voters is a trend throughout every democracy.
Anon
Yep. And this election actually went pretty well for Democrats, considering inflation and Biden’s approval ratings.
Anon
There’s rural and then cities have gotten so expensive that the exurbs have spread pretty far out and those areas are purple-ish, but often filled with families and older people who are just not culture warriors, especially when the price of gas is so d*mn high. They probably go to church on Sunday and lord knows, there aren’t a lot of good jobs even in cities for women with kids, so mom might stay home or only work PT in any job she can get. They might be religious, but might be acutely aware that if their daughter gets pregnant in high school, her life will be one of poverty, having her parents raise the kid while she gets through high school and college locally (have seen this next door to my parents), etc. if she can’t get an abortion (so believers of Bill Clinton’s safe, legal, and rare school of thought on that).
Even if you write off truly rural people as deplorables, they vote for governors and judges in states where judges are elected. Abortion, especially, is in the hands of states, so abandon non-cities at your own personal peril.
Seventh Sister
I left my exurb as quick as I could, but people don’t stay in exurban/rural areas because they are big dum-dums who’d never make it in the big city. Some people have family businesses, obligations, communities that make them stay in a place that others couldn’t wait to leave. One of the brightest people I know stayed in our little town, and honestly, I think she has a better quality of life than a lot of the people I know who left for blue cities. FWIW, I live in a blue state in a super-blue area and I totally hear liberal people make fun of Southerners, hillbillies, rednecks, evangelicals, small town residents, etc. and it always leaves me with a really bad taste in my mouth. My Pentecostal friend from high school teaches special ed PreK. I’m SURE we don’t agree about abortion, but she is doing the Almighty’s work every damn day.
Anon
I think about this a lot, how a lot of the people I disagree with politically (religiously, ethically, scientifically…) are in some cases doing more for a lot of vulnerable people than I am in my comfortable life (I could not get out of my rural hometown fast enough!). I think of the cop who administers a lot of naloxone and responds to a lot of suicide threat calls. The homeschool moms who show up in an instant with a fully cooked meal if anyone is going through something hard. I have some school teachers and nurses in this category too. I still think I’m right, but what is that worth really; I am not sure.
One of the things that bothered me most in higher ed was hearing people express how sad it was that certain students’ families were holding them back when they had so much potential. If a student took on a caretaking role for the grandma that raised them, or worked extra hours to help support family through something hard, or tried to use their new social capital to help out family members in trouble, that was all seen as a distraction and something they should let go of, along with their accent, their taste in food, and anything that else that marked them as not a homegrown member of the middle class. (That’s without even getting into how totally innocuous class markers were seen as signs of “poor fit” in potential employees or in graduate students competing for opportunities.)
Curious
Wow, I said almost the exact same thing to my mom yesterday.
Anon
I view the “rural vs. urban divide” as a problem that is fixing itself. The rural town where my grandparents lived, and where my mother grew up, is 30% smaller in population than it was when she grew up there. Shuttered buildings all over town. Kids don’t want to stay in the sticks (at least when they’re young. They want to move somewhere where there’s some action and have experiences outside of what they’re already familiar with.
When you look at the map, it looks like isolated islands of blue in a sea of red. However, most of the counties in that sea of red are nearly empty. The blue islands are where all the people are. That trend is just accelerating over time, which is why you now have fragile white Trump voters trying to sow fear and doubt about “urbanism” and “metropolitanism.” They see the problem: their kids don’t to stay in Bumf—, Nebrohoma. Who is moving to Bumf—, Nebrohoma are brown people. So they are going to try to get their kids to stay home by fomenting fears of “big city crime” (and in some cases talking outright about “black on black violence.”) And by being openly hostile and racist to immigrant newcomers. There was an excellent story in the NYT about this a couple of weeks ago if folks are interested in looking it up.
Some of y’all who are pleading for “understanding” of “rural Americans” are not paying a lick of attention to conservative media and it shows. This is no longer about trying to “reach out” to Trumpers and getting them to see our side of things. The narrative has gone full-on to “white replacement theory” and what white people – not conservatives, WHITE PEOPLE – need to do to hang on to control of the country. It’s just racism, and that’s it. if you want to “reach out” to people who truly believe the only appropriate leaders of this country are white Christian males who will make laws that follow Biblical principles, knock yourselves out. I’ll pass, thanks. Fortunately, every day old white people in the sticks are dying. And their kids aren’t moving back to work at the feed store (which is now just Tractor Supply, no more mom-and-pops that I saw the last time I was “back home.”) The islands of blue in the sea of red will just keep getting bigger as the rural communities dry up and blow away (even more likely in the West when you consider that the megadrought likely has many more decades of getting worse before it gets better).
Anon
I view the “rural vs. urban divide” as a problem that is fixing itself. The rural town where my grandparents lived, and where my mother grew up, is 30% smaller in population than it was when she grew up there. Shuttered buildings all over town. Kids don’t want to stay in the sticks (at least when they’re young. They want to move somewhere where there’s some action and have experiences outside of what they’re already familiar with.
When you look at the map, it looks like isolated islands of blue in a sea of red. However, most of the counties in that sea of red are nearly empty. The blue islands are where all the people are. That trend is just accelerating over time, which is why you now have fragile white Trump voters trying to sow fear and doubt about “urbanism” and “metropolitanism.” They see the problem: their kids don’t to stay in Bumf—, Nebrohoma. Who is moving to Bumf—, Nebrohoma are brown people. So they are going to try to get their kids to stay home by fomenting fears of “big city crime” (and in some cases talking outright about “black on black violence.”) And by being openly hostile and racist to immigrant newcomers. There was an excellent story in the NYT about this a couple of weeks ago if folks are interested in looking it up.
Some of y’all who are pleading for “understanding” of “rural Americans” are not paying a lick of attention to conservative media and it shows. This is no longer about trying to “reach out” to Trumpers and getting them to see our side of things. The narrative has gone full-on to “white replacement theory” and what white people – not conservatives, WHITE PEOPLE – need to do to hang on to control of the country. It’s just racism, and that’s it. if you want to “reach out” to people who truly believe the only appropriate leaders of this country are white Christian males who will make laws that follow Biblical principles, knock yourselves out. I’ll pass, thanks. Fortunately, every day old white people in the sticks are dying. And their kids aren’t moving back to work at the feed store (which is now just Tractor Supply, no more mom-and-pops that I saw the last time I was “back home.”) The islands of blue in the sea of red will just keep getting bigger as the rural communities dry up and blow away (even more likely in the West when you consider that the megadrought likely has many more decades of getting worse before it gets better. I would not want to be a farmer or cattle rancher anywhere West of the Mississippi right now).
Anon
I am firmly an Elite. Fancy college and advance degree, fancy job that no one they know has, eat organic food, etc. I can 100% understand why no one in rural America would feel like I represent their interests or have any sense of what their day to day needs are. Gas prices are a big deal when you live 50 miles from the closest grocery store. Distance learning was a complete disaster when you can’t get reliable internet and parents don’t have jobs that can be done from home. Some Democrats’ focus on transgender rights, protection for undocumented workers, etc. will seem misplaced when you don’t know anyone in those demographic categories and you’re not hearing anything from the candidates about things that matter to you.
Tim Ryan and Gretchen Whitmer (her original campaign slogan was Fix the Damn Roads) do this pretty well. Val Demmings too – just tough for Dems in Florida right now.
Anon
Val Demings is amazing. I’m especially peeved at anyone who actually believes the garbage being spewed that she’s some kind of radical. If a person is stupid enough to believe that, then I’m not sure anything’s going to get through.
Anonymous
Good observations. I wonder how much entertainment media plays into this – I can’t think of any shows like All in the Family, Hee Haw, Roseanne, or generally any non-suburban/city shows with working class people as heroes.
Huh: https://www.vulture.com/2018/05/working-class-sitcoms-timeline.html
Anon
Grace Under Fire, The Simpsons, Malcolm in the Middle, Better Call Saul (no heroes there, but Kim is one hell of a working class protagonist through most of the series).
PolyD
Distance learning was a disaster in 2020 under a Republican administration, with a basically invisible Secretary of Education, but by all means, let’s blame the liberal elite for that.
Not trying to be snarky at you, but I think people really don’t pay attention to how this country is run at the levels that make an impact on people’s lives, they just vote according to their gut. And for many people, the Republican Party encourages them to feel anger at the “others,” which feels a lot better than despair when you realize how hard you’d have to work to improve your life.
Anon
Distance learning was decided by my county’s elected school board (and was a disaster) and they were shown the door last night. IDK what Washington DC had to do with it. We closed our doors and the three counties next to us figured out how to reopen in August 2021 and their kids never had the great learning loss that my kids had. Hot mess. Local mess.
Anon
Your schools didn’t open in fall 2021?! Where do you live? I’m in a blue city/red state and there was a full time in person learning option beginning in August 2020 (also a virtual option for ‘20-‘21 school year but only for those who wanted it). I’m very committed to Democrats, but I agree any school board that couldn’t open in 2021 has got to go.
anon
Agreed. Your comment, PolyD, makes clear that you don’t know how this country works.
Anonforthis
Yes, so agreed!
anon for this
They really need to focus on the basics – building a good infrastructure that’s an investment in the future, and SHOUTING their wins. The GOP takes any minor thing and turns it into a huge rallying point. Why didn’t we see the same thing about the Inflation Reduction Act? Or medicaid expansion in so many states? Or social security protections? Point to the policy successes and people will respond.
Anonymous
Yea, the Democrats are TERRIBLE at messaging (I say as a democrat)
I hate pants
+100
Anon
Democrats are also terrible at strategy. You have to give it to the republicans there. Which I say as a liberal.
Anon
They could stop being so unbelievably condescending!
Peter Sandman has a write up on problems with messaging in the pandemic response, much of which I feel could apply more generally to how Ds talk about everything: https://www.psandman.com/articles/Corona59.pdf
pugsnbourbon
I don’t even know how to start the conversation at this point. My hometown was on national news a few years ago when a small group peacefully demonstrated in solidarity with BLM, but was overrun by racists from there and surrounding towns. Demonstrators were assaulted and a local high-school teacher was filmed calling a teenager the n-word. There are so many Trump flags and FJB flags and “F*ck Joe and the Hoe” stickers. I know there are still folks willing to talk calmly about issues but the well has been so deeply poisoned by Trump/QAnon and racism that it all gets drowned out. I feel so hopeless about this.
PolyD
Yep, liberals get tagged as clueless and condescending, but for actions like this, the media goes all, Well, there are hotheads on both sides.
anon
I mean, I am from rural Texas and have spent a lot of time there, and this does not at all sound like what I see. I think you may be nutpicking, tbh. Not saying this isn’t true, but don’t paint all of rural America with this broad brush.
NYC
+1
PolyD
And don’t paint all blue areas with the “condescending” brush. It’s pretty condescending to assume that people who live in cities can’t possibly understand rural plight, yet at the same time, not expect rural areas to think about why blue cities may vote the way they do.
I’m really tired of having to be the bigger person, in terms of understanding and sending my blue state dollars to red states that can’t support themselves.
Also, please stop bringing up the Scalise shooting, which was 15+ years ago, and the Kavanaugh incident, in which the dude with the gun turned himself in. Those are nothing compared to the right wing violence happening in this country. If you don’t believe me, look into the reports out of the FBI about increases in right wing violence dwarfing violence from the left.
Anon
Ditto to everything you said in your first two paragraphs. I don’t understand how calling out racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia and religious discrimination is “being condescending.”
In regards to this:
“Also, please stop bringing up the Scalise shooting, which was 15+ years ago, and the Kavanaugh incident, in which the dude with the gun turned himself in. Those are nothing compared to the right wing violence happening in this country. If you don’t believe me, look into the reports out of the FBI about increases in right wing violence dwarfing violence from the left.”
I believe these comments are contributions from our resident Newsmax/OANN viewer. I believe the only language she speaks is whataboutism – or, at least, that’s all I ever see from her. Tremendous showing for her side of the fence, politically-speaking. Really compelling and persuasive.
Vicky Austin
Late, but Steve Scalise was shot in 2016.
Anon
They need candidates who can speak authentically to the experiences and issues of rural voters and they need to not demand ideological purity on culture war issues. If the party doesn’t have room for people who have discomfort about the idea that a school district might conceal a child’s gender transition from parents or people who support some time limit on ab*rtion, then the party doesn’t have room for a lot of rural voters. Rural voters (like most low-income voters) tend more conservative on social issues and they also tend to care about those issues less regardless of their position on them, because of the economic pressures they face.
I fully recognize that the prevailing political views on this board are such that many of you will said that you *don’t* want your party to have room for those views, but that’s the impact.
Anonymous
+100 This is why I’m no longer registered D. I cannot pass the purity test. I still vote D because the alternative is to vote for a party that doesn’t accept election results, but the NO DEBATE YOU BIGOT policy with certain issues is not helpful with rural voters (or a former rural voter currently in a city like me).
Anonymous
I remember being so frustrated with an activist being interviewed on NPR during the summer of 2020 who kept saying “If a candidate does not want to defund the police, that candidate has no place in the Democratic party” or some such, while the interviewer kept saying “but don’t you think the term ‘defund the police’ is misleading” and the activist kept sticking to it without any give or explanation.
Anon
Oh I agree with this. I’m firmly a coastal elite and if I feel unwelcome in a lot of the D discourse, there’s no hope to reach rural voters.
Seventh Sister
While I think part of this is a “me” issue, I feel like my local D discourse in recent years has become “white men with trust funds explain things to me.” If I wanted to live in a culture where men are consistently condescending, I’d have stayed in my hometown and married my high school boyfriend!
Anon
I guess it’s a me issue too. Centrists explaining how actually the economy is doing great! Leftists explaining how actually metoo is a distraction.
Seventh Sister
I get both of those too! Also I get a nice slice of “only Karens care about the fires along the bike path” because it’s super, duper, safe for my teenager to ride her bike by some guy setting things on fire.
Anon
+100
In order to have wide appeal, the “woke” ideology tests need to be dropped. We need to focus on issues that appeal to most Americans and drop the noise. And we need to talk about and market these policies in a way that is approachable and easy to digest.
Most people who are worried about putting food on the table or gas in the tank likely dont have the energy or mental capacity to care about much else.
I live in Philly, our crime is out of control. Im liberal and hang in a liberal circle, I only know one person who is in favor of abolishing the police. Many of us are in favor of police reform, but recognize that that costs money and are happy to pony up. Independents and conservatives I know (more in the suburbs but who still come into the city for work or recreation) really want more police and more effective police. There is what appears to be a very loud ACAB minority, but most of the people I know just want to take public transportation without being shot.
Seventh Sister
Yeah, I’d like to take public transit without people openly smoking weed or touching themselves. Apparently that makes me hate homeless people.
Anon
+1 I also apparently hate homeless people for similar reasons
Anon
I mean, more people in the US support ads than Rs, so focusing on stopping gerrymandering is going to be a lot more effective than this kind of handwringing.
anon
True. One of the things Republicans did really, really well was understanding how getting elected to various state offices would cement their power federally, even if the majority of Americans vote for Democrats.
Ellen
I am not a fan of political hacks, particularly those repubicans who just want us to kow-tow to them just b/c they have access to technology.
Anon
Yup.
Anonymous
Start with supporting union workers and getting the unions who have strayed back in the D column.
Anon
Why? Ds seem at odds with all unions but public sector office workers because union jobs are too male, not green enough, etc. Keystone XL was bad for union workers but an OK cost to benefit a lot of other D constituencies.
Anon
i live in TX (unfortunately) and Beto spent time in rural areas, but even areas like Uvalde, Abbott won. I also read that in TX, the under 30 voter was down 1/4 compared to 2018 and the Black voters by 1/5. we need everyone to vote
Anon
Beto seems like the sort of guy who would drive into a small town in a Tesla, complain about the high cost of food at whole foods, and not get how the high cost of gas makes life very hard for people who shop at a Dollar General they have to drive their gas car 20 miles to. I’m not surprised he loses in TX statewide races but maybe he should move to somewhere like Austin and run in local races.
Seventh Sister
He also seems like the kind of guy who would send his kid to a $$$$ private school but spend all his time criticizing public school parents as racist for wanting honors / AP classes (like one of our local social justice warriors).
Anona
Stacey Abrams spent significant time in rural areas of Georgia, and she was not condescnding or elitist. She still got virtually none of the rural, white vote.
Anon
Because those people are racist. They’re not going to vote for a Black woman over a white man. We don’t need Scooby-Doo and the Mystery Machine to figure this out, folks
Anonymous
They have to start at the local level. Rural Americans don’t like that their tax dollars are being spent on nameless faceless Others in big cities while their streets haven’t been repaired for decades, their schools will never graduate kids who are getting free rides to college, and their local businesses are suffering. Rural communities feel that they are being sidelined in favor of cities. But they actually want the same services that are available in urban areas. If they see results in their local communities then they will be more likely to believe the D promise of great social services available to all.
Anon
All of these answers just tell me you all have never been to rural areas in your lives.
Anon
This isn’t a particularly helpful comment. What about the comments above make you think that? Do you have a perspective about a particular rural area you’d like to add to the discourse? Also, perhaps not all rural areas are the same. Just because your particular experience (assuming you have one) is at odds with someone’s viewpoint doesn’t necessarily mean they’ve never been to a rural area or have familiarity with rural areas.
Anon
As someone who is a moderate Democrat (I would have said liberal 10 years ago) and whose family are Republicans (but not MAGA-Republicans) in rural areas, I have thoughts. In no particular order:
– Stop saying “white privilege”. Yes – I know what it means but telling people who cannot afford dental care for their children that they are privileged is not winning you friends. You would not tell a Black person in the USA that they are “privileged” because they are not living in poverty in Africa. Don’t tell poor white people they are privileged because they are white. It just pisses them off. Talk about the policies that led to them not having dental insurance or a hospital less than 2 hours away.
– Stop saying Latinx. Please – just stop. In fact stop trying to make English non-gendered. We speak a gendered language. While you are at is, stop saying only white people can be racists. And sneering at people who say “African American” or who cannot keep up with the latest politically-correct lingo.
– Stop staying things about Christians that you would not say about Jews or Muslims. And stop lumping them all together. Not all Muslims are terrorists. Not all Christians are homophobic and anti-abortion. Nobody is wearing a cross “at” you. Emphasize religious freedom rather than separation of church and state.
– The hot button, niche issues are killing you. Argue that trans people deserve to be treated with dignity and respect but stop accusing every person who raises concerns about communal changing rooms and women’s sports of being a trans phobic bigot. We may not be teaching critical race theory as that term is used in academia in high schools but enough people on this site have complained about bone-headed diversity seminars that it should be clear there are some bone-headed school programs out there. And not every single facet of US history needs to be taught through the lens of race.
– Stop taking historical figures names off of buildings because they did not meet modern standards. Confederate statute put up in the 20s for people whose ONLY notable quality was that they fought for the South – fair game. Presidents, Senators, explorers, judges are not being celebrated for being racists or homophobic.
– Try for some respect. And not just political figures (who are mostly smart enough to watch what they say). They are painfully aware of the contempt with which they are viewed. (They read message boards and newspaper comments too.) This might be the most important thing of all.
Anon
+1 to this entire thread from another moderate democrat with a lot of republican family members in rural and far out suburban areas. I have some extended family maga type relatives who I view as unreachable but this would really make a difference with the bulk of my relatives.
Anon
+2 – this is spot on
Anon
Rust belt red state Dem here. I hate this narrative that we’re getting destroyed because we care about human rights. We’re not. We win the popular vote in almost every election, the House map is ridiculously gerrymandered and it was still super close, and it looks like we’re going to keep the Senate. In a first term president midterm when historically the party in power get crushed! Do you have any idea what a good result that is? Dems fared so much better last night than we did during the first terms of Clinton and Obama, when the country was less polarized and basically none of the things you listed were on anyone’s radar. Rural parts of the country have always been strongly red and are getting redder due to changing demographics, the country is more polarized than ever and many Christians are single issue voters on abortion. Stopping the use of the word “Latinx” is not going to change any minds (I happen to agree with not liking that term, but it’s because it’s not what Latinos prefer to be called…not because it offends rural white people). The path forward for Democrats is continuing to turn out young voters, people of color and white women in suburbs who are upset about their reproductive rights being taken away. Not flipping deep red rural areas.
anono
+1000 to anon @2:19. If I could wave a magic wand. Taking down statues of Geo Washington because he owned slaves or Lincoln statues because he wasn’t more anti-slavery is nuts.
Seventh Sister
Amen.
Related: Stop equating “Christian” with “evangelical.”
Anon
Hours late, but posting just to say, Hear, hear!! I’m a conservative Dem by current standards (would have said moderate a few years ago), and through family and geographic ties, I interact frequently with MAGA-world. This is 1000% correct. This is it.
Anonymous
Can anyone give me a dummy’s guide to ETFs? If you get a general one are they better/worse than index funds?
Ses
ETFs pretty much are index funds in many cases. It’s a version of the index fund which you, a retail investor, can buy on the stock exchange (that’s what the Exchange-Traded part of ETF means).
I recommend The Motley Fool and Investopedia for terminology and basic understanding, and I hear that Bogleheads is a good community for discussing this sort of thing although I don’t read it.
Monday
I like the top and am very impressed that the website has full measurements for every size of it! I might get it if it came in another color….
pugsnbourbon
I 100% believe that the right person would look incredible in this. I would look like I was badly cosplaying a fancy clown.
Anon
I need to know if I’m being unreasonable. I’m asking because this situation comes up a lot and it has me quesitoning that maybe it is me, and not them. This 100% only happens with my in-laws. An example is this: My SIL’s milestone birthday party is this Saturday. Family is throwing a low-key party. I sent a group text today asking if anyone has appetizers covered, and if not, we would bring some. I don’t cook and I was going to place an order through this local place for a bunch of different things, so I needed to do that soon. They all responded that they haven’t even thought that far ahead yet, it’s only Wednesday, blah blah. They then added some passive agressive stuff about how life is so much easier when they don’t obsessively plan things out. I get it, but I literally need to know so I can place an order lol. This also comes up with my MIL and FIL when we plan on having our kids go spend the night with them. 3-4 days out I will text them to get some times lined up on when they can come over and they act like I’m insane for doing it that far in advance. My husband and I work 50+ hour jobs on top of usual kid activities, so I feel like it makes it easier to know what our schedule will look like. But maybe I’m overdoing it?
Anon
I don’t think you’re being unreasonable, but I also don’t think they’re going to change. Clearly this is a family dynamic that has worked for them, and you are going to drive yourself mad trying to change it.
For the party, what I would do is get whatever you want and text the group something like, “I got a cheese plate for the appetizer!” You know that none of them are planning ahead enough to have gotten the course you’re considering. And if there end up being two appetizers, that’s fine.
It’s obviously harder when you’re trying to make a real plan that involves making sure the kids are taken care of. If they say they’re going to take the kids for a night, do they always do that (just don’t like arranging a time in advance?) or do they sometimes back out? If the former, I know it’s annoying, but I’d either let the husband deal with the parents or just set aside a block of time where they’re most likely to be there for pick up. If they sometimes back out, have husband deal with that issue as well since they’re his parents and he knows best how to communicate with them.
Anon
Agree with this.
Anon
Yup, this.
Anonymous
+1
Anon
Another agree. This is a you do you thing. Don’t ask. Just act.
Anonymous
Eh, I think this is just different strategies for planning vs going with the flow. I’d just reply all and say great, I’ll bring appetizers then, and let everyone plan around that.
Anon
Did you actually say “I’m going to place an order and I need to know what you want by X time in order to have it ready in time?”
Anonymous
This sounds like my ILs, they’re both ADHD (along with BIL) and don’t employ any management strategies, their lives are unplanned chaos and it’s really hard to deal with. Unfortunately you can’t force people to get their sh*t together so I just tell them (IN WRITING) what I’m doing, and then execute that plan.
Panda Bear
Ugh, I feel your pain! Planning food for a Saturday party on the Wednesday before seems totally reasonable to me. I don’t have kids myself, but it also makes sense that you’d want to plan a few days ahead if they are going for an overnight that you have to coordinate times and pickup for. I am very much like you, and I try my best not to get frustrated with the late/non planners in my life. Sometimes that means I limit the extent to which they are part of my planning; I do as much as I can on my own (without taking off on a totally different path). In a situation like your SILs party, I might have just said “Unless anyone else has claimed them, I am taking care of appetizers!” and moved ahead with my order.
Anonymous
You’re overdoing it. They are clearly telling you that. You aren’t hosting the party it is not your job to organize it or make it nice. If they ask you to bring apps, stop at the grocery store for chips, salsa, cheese and crackers on the way. You do not need to place an order you do not need to get it catered you do not need to cook.
Anon8
+1 my read on the messages from the in-laws saying “oh we haven’t even thought of that yet!” is them passive-aggressively saying butt-out.
Aunt Jamesina
My husband’s family members are very similar, while I’m from a family of planners. My tactic is now that these sorts of tasks are 100% my husband’s problem (because really, is *he* coordinating appetizers for parties for your family? Probably not!) unless we’re the ones hosting since it’s his family. If we’re hosting, then we chat about it and plan/divvy up tasks beforehand. This is not your problem to stress over.
MagicUnicorn
They sound a bit annoying. However, I would reframe it in your mind: their lack of initiative means you get first dibs to bring whatever you want. Roll your eyes at their passive aggressive comments and don’t engage those.
When they say they haven’t thought that far ahead, you can respond with “Great! I will bring the veggie tray and dinner rolls and let you all coordinate the other dishes. See you all Saturday!”
Walnut
I think the key here is ‘low key’. Whatever fruit/veggie/cheese tray available at the grocery store en route to the event is going to be a perfectly acceptable contribution. Buy whatever your family likes to eat and at least you know you won’t be hungry.
Anon
Agree with just telling them instead of asking. “I’m bringing a charcuterie board!”
By any chance, are your MIL and SILS stay at home parents?
Anan
I am not a planner – I would totally be that person planning Saturday’s dinner party on Friday morning. Having said that, I totally get that other people work on a different timeline and I would not be at all upset if people make firm decisions and let me know and I would arrange ourselves around that. I ‘m sorry they are giving you attitude. If your pace of planning what you need to function with the least amount of stress, I don’t think you are overdoing it at all.
Anonymous
My sister-in-law is like you. Type A and highly regimented. Our family is laid back. We are not going to change to fit in her with her anxiety or whatever it is. You want to bring an app, bring an app. If not, don’t. You would annoy me in this dynamic. Chill.
Anon
+1
Anon
Right.
When my kids were little, I had to lock in to a breakfast, lunch, and dinner plan for each day, naps, etc. We don’t have schedules, but we have routines and no margin for error (can’t run out of milk).
I am good at saying “Ima lose my mind by the end of the week, so I’ve gotten my order in for ham biscuits to bring for brunch so I don’t forget it” and just leaving it at that.
Anonymous
lol how can you tell their personality type by one question? Asking to bring apps to a party is not highly regimented. When friends or family throw parties I always ask if there is something I can bring, and given the majority of responses, other people seem to agree.
Anon
Girl, I feel you. I am a planner from a family of last minute, refuse to plan types. My solution is to let them handle things and I plan regarding of the non-plan. “Oh, you wanted to do dinner instead of the brunch you mentioned and you want to do that tomorrow? No, sorry, I made plans already. Next time let’s get it officially in calendar!” In your apps case, I wouldn’t bring a thing beyond wine or a hostess gift.
Anon 2.0
I have never felt a post as much as this one! LOL. I am you in this scenario. I am from a family of planners who love to host. DH’s family does things at the last minute and haphazardly. For me, I host whenever it is possible so I can be in control of most of it. For example, DH’s sister will say “I will get the pizza” for a family gathering and then not order NEARLY enough. I cannot handle that. And it’s not just gatherings, they live their lives this way in general, just disorganized and at the last minute. Do I come across as a bit uptight and controlling? I’m sure. But, no one seems to mind letting me take on the planning and showing up with the one item I explicitly told them to bring.
anon
I think this depends on how big of a party it is. If you’re ordering apps for fifty plus people, then yes they need to give you some info. If this is a casual dinner at your in laws with your spouse’s siblings and their partners/kids, you need to chill. You do not need to call a caterer. You need to say you’ll bring apps and swing by the grocery store and grab a cheese and veggie platter.
Seventh Sister
I empathize – I’m a planner from a family of planners. That said, my family of planners is also passive-aggressive as heck. I think the subtext is that they want to control the food for the party and if they can, be critical of you for bringing something “store bought” because you couldn’t make 150 pigs in blankets at 4pm on Saturday afternoon. This is when I lean into the “I’m a heartless career b*tch” and either bring nothing or whatever happens to be at the grocery store.
Anon
How do you encourage a teenager to have better posture (stand up straight, shoulders back) without becoming a nagging parent? My daughter has terrible posture and I don’t know how to improve it without damaging the relationship. I am otherwise very proud of her and feel like she is doing well in most areas of her life (school, friends, etc.)
Anon
Shoulders back is weird and old fashioned. Unless this is a health issue I would ignore.
Anon
So weird. She’ll grow out of it.
Anon
Ugh I did not and as an adult I bave terrible posture. Wish I had been able to fix it earlier
Anon
Same.
anon
Same, but I’m also glad my mom didn’t criticize me for it or nag me about it.
Anon
I agree. If you’ve got a good relationship otherwise, I can’t imagine damaging it because of this. My parents constantly told me I was slouching and my hair was in my face. I think as a teenager I wasn’t confident in my skin and wanted to hide a little. I hated that they wouldn’t just let me be.
Anonymous
Uh, no, good posture is not old-fashioned.
PolyD
Good posture is old-fashioned??? The things I learn here!
Flats Only
You don’t. For a lighthearted look at this exact motherly inclination watch the Call My Agent “Nathalie et Laura” episode on Netflix.
Anon
I just watched this. Such a wonderful portrayal of the mother-daughter relationship!
go for it
thoughts (please take what you like and leave the rest)
– have her see a chiropractor 1x and they will point it out right away and show how she can sit or stand to maintain better alignment
– say something because it will become a long term problem. Here’s why: phones have us looking down all of the time, and as the head is proportionally heavy, it causes neck and overall postural problems.
-in Pilates classes they talk about having a string from the top of your head to the sky, effectively pulling the body into alignment. perhaps take a class together?
Anon
The tech neck thing is so real! I hate to think of what kids will look like after decades of this.
Anonymous
Uh, or us?
Anon
This but not a chiropractor (it’s okay to see a real orthopedist or a physical therapist!). My university’s PT program had free fitness checks for students that checked posture, strength, range of motion, etc., and it was a great resource because when we’re still young, there’s time to nip things in the bud that could become painful if left unaddressed.
It’s just another kind of medical check up, but primary care doesn’t always check gait, whether we’re getting “pigeon toed” or the reverse, whether we’re overpronating or the reverse, and so on.
Anon
Please no chiropractor. They are quacks and dangerous.
Anon
+ 1. So many stories about severe injuries.
I hate pants
+100
Please, I don’t want to see anymore young women with strokes (or worse….) in the Emergency Room after seeing their chiropractor. A physical therapist is better and may help you solve the problem for life rather than needing to go back to the chiroparactor for periodic (expensive…) “treatments”.
And to the OP – your daughter is a normal teenager. Most teenagers have bad posture. And many girls realize that shoulders back means you poking out your chest in a way that seems … unnatural…. asking for comments/observation. There could be a lot of things going on that you aren’t aware of. Or she could just be a normal teenager with relaxed poor posture. Like I was.
You could get her to try pilates with you… a class… a video. Anything that improves core strength will help posture.
Nagging about something like this will only put you in the dog house.
Signed,
a Neurologist
Anon
No they are not.
SSJD
Your concerns are valid in my mind, but I’m not sure there is a way to remind your daughter without nagging. My strategy is to model good posture while sometimes narrating out loud that I’m working on it myself. Every once in a while, gently remind her. Otherwise, let it go (and gently let her all the things you think she’s doing well.)
But I do think that this is a real issue for a generation that is leaning over laptops and phones more (and younger) than those before them. The forward strain of the neck is real, it looks awful, and I would guess that it will have an impact on how our kids stand, sit, and ultimately feel for their whole lives. (My husband’s posture has gotten terrible in just the last few years, and I really hate how prematurely old and hunched he looks. I’m trying not to be a nag about it to him!)
Anon
Does she have a large chest and is embarrassed? Or a poorly fitting bra?
Anonymous
+1 I hunched in high school because I was embarrassed by my breasts. My bestie hunched because she was embarrassed to be 6 ft tall.
Anonymous
Even if you aren’t embarrassed it hurts to hold up a big rack all day!
Anon
I was never embarrassed, but definitely a “bra that fit” (smaller band size, larger cup size than I can buy locally) improved my posture.
Anon
Are parents not supposed to nag?
Anon
No. Nagging is a great way for you to end up with your kids resenting you and never doing whatever it is you want them to do.
Anon
As the child who had a mother who constantly did this (along with running her fingernail down my spine randomly to remind me stand up straighter), please don’t nag or constantly remind. My mother and I have a horrendous relationship and this is a part of it…
It turned out I had fairly significant undiagnosed scoliosis and she was actually doing physical damage, not to mention the emotional damage. I suggest trying to get her interested in something that has a side benefit of better posture — dance, yoga, pilates, running, etc. Maybe it can be something you do together or something she can do with friends.
Anon
+1 to the first paragraph. It says to your daughter that you’re looking at her with judgment and not loving judgment. It will make her feel like a doll and like the only thing that matters is external appearances. You probably don’t intend that, but it’s a common reaction to parents who consistently comment on appearance related issues.
Anonymous
It seems like we had the same crappy mother. Mine constantly picked on my poor posture as if it was my moral failure, but it was actually her moral failure as a neglectful parent for not taking me to a doctor to diagnose and address my scoliosis.
Anon
If my mother recommended Pilates to me as a teenager, I would have 100% thought it was about my weight or appearance. This is also damaging.
anon
+1 to your first paragraph. As for the second, those things might help, or there could be an unrelated thing going on. I ran, rowed, and did pilates as a teenager. I had terrible posture then and still do. My poor posture is actually related to tightness in my hips/IT band, which I received physical therapy for in high school as well. I do specific yoga exercises to help. But I’m glad my mother never nagged me about it!
Anonymous
Omg I cannot with this. You are “otherwise” very proud of her? Get over yourself. Leave it alone. Try loving your daughter and yourself. Maybe do some therapy for why you felt this was ok to share.
Senior Attorney
This is pretty harsh but I agree with the underlying sentiment.
If you want to destroy your relationship with your daughter, nag away. Otherwise offer to enroll her in ballet or something else that she LIKES and will include a posture element, and leave her the heck alone.
Anonymous
Does she have an ergonomic desk set up? Is she working on a laptop, or does she have a stand, an external keyboard, and a mouse? I’d make sure her environment is set up for your efforts to succeed.
Anon 2.0
Leave.It.Alone…. I repeat Leave.It.Alone. This is just nagging and unnecessary criticism. It’s basically the posture version of Almond Mom.
Anonymous
Enroll her in marching band, choir, ballet, Pilates, yoga, and/or martial arts. I have done all of these and IME marching band is the best for posture, followed by ballet. I am still routinely asked if I am a dancer or in the military because of my posture.
Get her an ergonomic desk setup for homework, including a footrest.
Mouse
Maybe approach it from a health/pain perspective (“I noticed this, does your back/neck hurt? Are you unable to sit comfortably? Would be happy to take you to XYZ doc…”) rather than constantly reminding her to sit straight, which will ultimately be adding another thing on your plate that I’m sure you don’t need!
Anonymous
Agree with those saying to leave it alone. I have terrible posture and my mom used to constantly tell me to sit up straight as a kid. It did nothing except make me annoyed and resentful. Certainly didn’t do anything to my posture! Nothing did until I saw a profile photo of myself when I was 25. It doesn’t matter if it’s a health concern or not, your teenager will see it as nothing but nagging.
In recovery from rigidity
I’ve spent the past few years doing qi gong, other movement practices, and getting body work to uncondition myself from the patterns of holding tension in my body that I got prompted into as a child (posture comments at dinner table, the way PE was taught).
I am not an expert, but for your daughter’s sake I am asking you to please look into the possibility that functional fitness is not about how the body looks (standing up straight, shoulders back). Liz Koch at Core Awareness has a lot of free videos if you are curious about why I’m saying this.
Anonymous
Hi mom.
Anon Mom
OK I am going to disagree with a lot of posters.
If my teen had not wanted to brush her teeth, I would not have said “oh well – I don’t want to nag.” The sooner she fixes this the better and it can have long-term consequences.
Assuming her doctor confirms no structural issues with her back, my suggestion is that you talk to her about it. Tell her what you told us. I think this is a problem. It can be a bigger problem later. In the old days, we would have put you in backboard and put a board with nails on the back of your chair but obviously that is not happening now. So what do you suggest? How can I help? I don’t want to be a nag but I also don’t want you to have a lifetime of back issues. And then talk to her about solutions and how you can support that.
My daughter chewed her nails and this conversation went a long way toward working toward a solution (although it was “in the old days, we would have pained your nails with something nasty tasting”). However, note that I would not have accepted “I don’t think this is a problem” as a solution. She was 14. She does not get to decide that. And before anyone jumps all over me – my daughter is now grown and we have an amazing relationship.
Anonymous
How’s her eye sight? Sometimes people hunch and bend if they are near sighted and starting to adjust to read and look at their phones a lot.
Anon
Favorite places for a quick breakfast/lunch near 46th and Broadway? There for a conference most of next week. And also in general fun things to do in the area that wouldn’t take much time/not too far off? I know it’s the worst part of NYC but it is what it is.
anon
Lodi for breakfast (it’s in rock center but not that far of a walk)
Tsurutontan for lunch (48 and 6th)
anon
Galaxy diner in hell’s kitchen for breakfast. Island burger or pio pio for lunch. You just need to walk west and there are a million restaurants. Also lots of good thai on 9th avenue.
Anonymous
+1 – head to 9th avenue. As for fun things to do in the area, theater!
London (formerly NY) CPA
Not sure if you’re looking for sit-down places but if not: Pick A Bagel for a quick but tasty bagel breakfast. I also like the breakfast wraps at Toasties (I used to go there for a Healthy Wrap with ketchup everytime I was at my office nearby).
anon
I just finished my large corporation’s annual survey. At least 20% of the questions were about whether I feel that the company supports my mental and physical well being. I personally could not care less. IMO, making good money and having flexible work arrangements is all I need from my work. I have zero interest in our virtual “mindfulness sessions” or signing up for lunchtime yoga. Am I just a corporate stick in the mud? Do people care about these kinds of things? Personally I think it’s kind of invasive for my workplace to want to know all about my mental and physical well being. That’s between me and my medical providers, is it not?
If it matters, I’m new to the large corporate world, having spent the last decade in public service.
Cat
I have the same reaction. What supports my well-being is appropriate pay, work-life balance, and benefits, not work-sponsored seminars on meditation.
Vicky Austin
You are not alone in this. I think most people who work in such environments feel this way. Not too long ago, somebody posted here about going through a day-long mental health “training” or seminar or something that was 100% tone deaf and terrible.
Also, yoga with my coworkers sounds like my idea of hell.
Anon
Is this something The Kids Today want? Any mindfulness offerings by my employer – or listening sessions where coworkers talk about personal struggles – sound like my idea of hell. But I’m an Old – the younger generations are defined by oversharing so maybe it’s just reflecting what newer workers want?
Anonymous
No, office yoga is not something The Kids Today want. The Bosses Today want to think that encouraging employees to practice mindfulness gets them off the hook for fixing all the problems they cause in the workplace through mismanagement–toxic culture, understaffing, etc.
Vicky Austin
I am decidedly not an Old, although probably a smidge old to be considered The Kids Today, and I’ve already declared myself as anti-office yoga. And I agree with Anon 11:46: I would much, much rather have a supportive manager in an honest, positive culture with sufficient staff for everyone to not be overworked.
Anon
No, we don’t want that.
anonshmanon
definitely not coming from The Kids. OP, I’d simply answer questions in the context that makes sense to you. I agree that compensation and flexibility are huge factors. Additionally, I am thinking of ability to get ergonomic equipment, and an overall work culture that enables things like taking regular time off, speaking up about work load, ability to deal with toxic colleagues etc. A mindfulness webinar can not fix these things.
Anonymous
I’m with you. I think it’s a way for corporations to pretend to care about employees health instead of doing things that could actually help employee health, like more money, flexible work arrangements, and more PTO.
Anon
+1
I used to work for a place that didn’t give health insurance to contract workers. LOVED getting invited to lunch mindfulness sessions while I didn’t have insurance.
Aunt Jamesina
Yeah, I tend to think that any of those stupid workplace wellness initiatives are just band-aids for symptoms. The jobs I’ve had where people were the most stressed out would have benefited from firing some toxic bosses and having more flexible leave policies and reasonable workload expectations. No lunchtime yoga is going to help that!
Anon
I’d love a lunchtime yoga class. Sounds like fun to me. We have all kids of intramural sports teams that are somewhat popular. Mindfulness sessions sound like a drag though.
Anon
My Big Law firm used to have weekly lunchtime yoga. I really enjoyed it! Although I agree that pay and time off and general worklife balance are more important.
Anon
Workplaces contribute to mental health by allowing for flexibility and fostering a healthy work environment. Place emphasis on the need for flexibility and a healthy work environment.
anon
OP here, and I tried my best to convey that the two most important things my workplace can do to support my well being is to pay me well and allow me to work on my own time. I’m not sure how truly “anonymous” this survey was so I had to phrase things carefully but I was honest about it.
Anon
Do not understate the need to show toxic employees the door.
Anon
No. I think of this as stuff employers do so they can point to it later when an employee suffers a mental health crisis. This way they can treat people badly and also get to victim blame.
Anon
I view these as a cop out. Give me work life balance, market rate (or better!) pay, adéquate PTO, and good (comprehensive but affordable) benefits to include medical, 401k match, mental health coverage, tuition reimbursement.
There are some work extracurriculars I do engage in, but if they went away I’d be fine. They’re just fun extras. The work gym charges $30/mo so if that closes I’d find another, similarly priced gym. I play on a kickball team with work friends, but we pay for that out of pocket. Occasionally they have weird, but fun one offs (I went to a one hour seminar on cooking techniques) but they’re a fun bonus not something I depend on (and most of the time I’m too busy to go anyways).
Last year my office got rid of the free coffee and lunches, started charging for the gym, and capped raises at 3% despite inflation being higher. Fix that before I get lunch time yoga!!
I really just want separate sick leave from my PTO, a raide that covers inflation, a normal schedule and good retirement and medical bennies. And reinstating free lunch, coffee, and gym would be nice!
Senior Attorney
“adéquate PTO”
I read this as “ad-AY-quate” like the famous Nigella Lawson “mee-cro-wah-vay” for “microwave.”
Heh. I am easily amused.
Also, I totally agree with you on the merits.
Anon
Omg idk why my phone decided to be French today but is adding accents to everything!!! Like its happened about 100 times today, no exaggeration
Anon
Pay me well and I will have well-being. Oh wait, that actually costs the company money. Surveys are free.
NYNY
I feel like this is when you’re a hammer, everything looks like a nail problem. HR people look for HR ways to solve the problems they’re asked to address. Their tools are limited, and they generally don’t have the ability to improve pay across the board or mandate flex time. But they can schedule another seminar in a snap.
Anonymous
I don’t know what questions you had, obviously, and whether there was blank space. But I think that physical and mental well being is relevant, only not in the mindfulness side of the aisle… You have to translate into something that has a budget.
Physical well being:
Ergonomic desk set-up, two screens, suitable chair, good lighting/heat/ventilation/noise level, room for personal belongings, well-maintained bathrooms, shower room for bicycle commuters, well-kept tea rooms or mini kitchens, secure and well-lit parking for cars and bicycles, freedom from surveillance, reasonable commuting options (metro, train…), adequate budget for miscellaneous equipment, good level of PTO.
Mental well being:
Good level of PTO, all the benefits, good management culture and leading by example and actually taking time off, expectation of employees to have a life, visible management effort to be non-rasist, non-discriminatory, non-exploitative are some things that spring to mind.
None of these things are about your personal mental or physical well being, but are part of what makes a workplace an overall good place to work for everybody.
But yeah, virtual mindfulness sessions are not interesting.
Anon
No one wants free snacks, beer, ping pong, mindfulness or yoga classes without a decent salary and some flexibility. My company gives a cash benefit to use on wellness things with a very broad definition but we are also paid well. I also don’t want to workout with colleagues. I don’t want them seeing me in my workout gear or looking unprofessional.
nuqotw
After nearly a year of trying for a vacation and losing to snow days and illness, I took a true day off yesterday! I feel like a new woman, and I’m taking off tomorrow and Friday too.
Panda Bear
Good for you! Enjoy it all!
Wheels
Woohoo! Enjoy your break.
pugsnbourbon
Yesss! I hope you have something nice planned for yourself – or nothing at all, if that’s better!
Boots
I need new black leather ankle boots with a low or block heel. I was very disappointed in blondo quality. Any recommendations for brands for my next purchase? I’m will to go up to $300, but would really prefer to keep it to $200.
Anon
I like the Sam Edelman boots. How about something like this:
https://www.nordstrom.com/s/sam-edelman-thelma-chelsea-boot-women/6402964?origin=category-personalizedsort&breadcrumb=Home%2FWomen%2FShoes%2FBoots&color=001
Anonymous
Aquitalia
booties
+1
Great quality, waterproof, work appropriate.
Start looking at the styles now and figure out your size. Then look for the sales around Thanksgiving, and snatch them up. I also buy after Xmas. They are pricey but you can get deep discounts and with care they last for years and years and they have many classic, timeless styles. I have many pairs now. I take care of them by removing snow and salt with a wipe of a wet paper towel after wearing, and keep a shoe/boot kit at home with nice leather cleaners/polish/buffing rags that I (honestly) rarely use etc… Then at the end of a season (or beginning of winter) I bring my booties/boots to the cobbler for a tune-up. Save $ in the long run by not buying new boots/booties every year except for the rare pair for fun.
Anon
Check out Cole Haan or Clark’s. They are my go to for boots and booties.
Anonymous
Ecco
Anon
Freda Salvator has great boots and a bunch are on sale now.
Anon
I just went through my boots last night. My Blondos are ok but my one pair of Josef Seibel boots have held up the best and are the most comfortable to boot (no pun intended). They’re a comfort brand and sell some comfortable-looking shoes, if you know what I mean, but with boots, it’s actually kind of hard to tell, and I am a happy person when my feet are happy.
https://josefseibelshop.com/collections/womens-womens-boots
Anne-on
If anyone else is looking for some easy and lighthearted reads to distract themselves from (election/family stress/work stress/life) I got this email and thought it would be perfect to share:
https://modernmrsdarcy.com/winter-holiday-romances/
Wheels
Thank you, once we hit November I love reading Christmas books. Today I was eyeing off A Muppet Christmas Carol and wondering how long until my annual viewing!
Anon
Has anyone had brow lamination done? I have thick brows that have a few patchy spots. I’m thinking about adding lamination to my normal wax + tint to try it out but I haven’t seen anyone over the age of 30 with it done.
Anon
I have and it did nothing that a little brow wax does. I have straight hair and eyebrows already though so that could have been part of the lack of worth-it-ness. Worth trying once to see if you like it, it only lasts about a month.
Anon
Ps – I’m far over 30 ;) it also doesn’t do anything for patchy spots, it’s basically a straightening of the hairs and makes it easier to brush them up soap-brow style
Anon
I think you might want to try microblading in the patchy spots, not lamination.
Anon
I love my microblading. I have sparse, patchy eyebrows naturally and now I actually look like I have eyebrows without having to pencil them in. Key for me was finding an artist with an online portfolio and not a sharpie brow in the entire thing. I wanted a subtle, natural look.
Anon
People in my city (another blue dot in a red sea) proved yesterday that they couldn’t be bothered to turn out for a couple of really good local candidates. We had two solid candidates who were both knowledgeable about local issues, active in the community, ethical and hard workers. Both lost to incumbents who are very much in the pockets of local businesses and developers. One was a former college and NFL football player, which seems to be more important than voting record, ethics or platform. Our effective statewide senator was voted out thanks to gerrymandering. Now we have a republican former football player (noticing a theme here?). Woo sportsball! Our very, very effective, well-liked Congressman was also voted out in favor of a hard right culture warrior (doctors who are against expanding healthcare access are a special kind of hypocrites). This was also thanks to gerrymandering.
Anon
GA6?
anon
How did a statewide candidate lose due to gerrymandering?
Anon
I think she means a state-level senator, rather than US Senate.
Anon
Sorry, state senate. Her district boundaries were moved. FL Senate District 3. and FL-2 congressional seat.
Anon
Oops, put this on yesterday’s coffee break by mistake: Recently I discovered that Clinique had discontinued my mascara (Glossy). I’m devastated. I’ve used it since the 80s. I used to try other brands when I was in high school, but they made my eyes water like crazy. Has anyone found a good replacement? I don’t want water-proof.
Luckily I have two more tubes in the cupboard, since I would usually buy a few at a time to get the free gift. I am open to spending some money for something that works. Thank you!
Panda Bear
Frustrating! I wonder if you need something formulated specifically for sensitive eyes? Personally I like the tubing kinds (I get one from the drugstore, Loreal double extend, I think).
Anon
I have really sensitive eyes and the only mascara I like is Glossier lash slick.
Anon
It’s too bad it is discontinued, but if you have been using this since the 80’s and haven’t tried other brands since high school, it’s definitely time to try other brands!!
Anon
Why? If it worked for her why on earth should she buy other ones that might or might not work?
Anon
Oh, I don’t know maybe because things can change significantly in 30 years and maybe there is something more updated out there??
Anne-on
Try the clean beauty mascara trial set at sephora. There are 4 options (very good for sensitive eyes) and then you get a certificate for a full sized one. The rare beauty one is good but the brush is a bit wonky, my personal new favorites are the Saie or Ilia ones.
Anon
I’ve been using Maybelline Lash Sensational since it came out years ago. I go cheap on mascara since you are supposed to change it every 3-6 months.
Anon OP
Thank you for the replies. I’ll try to the Sephora trial set. I had a similar situation five or six years ago when I discovered Borghese discontinued another, favourite product (again, used since the Ice Age). I called the corporate office to cry on their shoulder, and the woman who answered the phone actually went rummaging in their store room and found some! She sent them all to me, so now I have another ten years to go before I run in to a similar problem.
Anon
I would also check at your Clinique counter and see if they recommend a replacement. They should be able to give you some samples to see if anything works.
I hate when perfectly good products are discontinued! I have switched all of my skincare away from Clarins because every time I went to reorder recently they changed the formulas and they were never as good.
Lobby-est
Bobbi Brown’s smudge proof mascara is amazing!
anon a mouse
To the poster yesterday who was looking for long puffer coats for 12-14 pear shapes, check Columbia. I just received the long heavenly jacket (really a lightweight coat) and it fits perfectly (I sized up to XXL to be sure that it would fit over thick sweaters). They have a number of other long puffer styles too.
Anon
I am size 16 and I love my Columbia puffer, I find it fits generously through the hips and chest.
Z
As a Michigander who knocked on doors every weekend for the last 5 months, I’m thrilled with the results here. Whitmer, Gilchrist, Benson, Nessel, and all 3 propositions passed. I am hopeful that we will keep the Senate as NV and AZ count the ballots. I’m less hopeful about the house, but it could have been worse?
Dems really do need to work on messaging. But so many people believe straight up lies (see: everything the GOP said about prop 3 (reproductive rights)), where do we even start?
Anon
Cries in Floridian. I would really love to be known for the fun kind of crazy (Drunk Naked Man Tosses Live Alligator Through Drive-thru Window type headlines), rather than the cruel, petty, mean crazy we just elected and re-elected.
Anonymous
So I think we’re on the same page. Thanks for knocking doors. Given the economy and the relative unpopularity of the president this is not an awful result. Not a red wave by any stretch.
I hope the Republicans are disappointed and reconsider some things. I’m a lifelong dem but I hope for the good of the country that the Republican Party gets its act together and abandons the terrifying anti-democracy extremism in favor of candidates who are capable of rejecting fascism and accepting election results.
Anon
completely agree. i’m also a lifelong dem so far, but miss the old republican party
Anon
Thank you for your work!! And congrats on the Michigan results.
Anonymous
As a Georgian, I am really crossing my fingers that NV and AZ go Democrat because that would likely secure Warnock’s seat here. A lot of GOP voters here will only vote in the runoff for Walker if the Senate majority is at play.
Anon
If democrats lose the Senate it won’t be by much, and I hope they use every single dirty trick the republicans have been using against them for the last few years.
Anon
thank you for all of your hard work!
Anon
I’m a native CA, my husband is a native MI, and we have lived in CA for our entire marriage. We were absolutely glued to the MI results last night!!
Anon
Edit to add, yes, THANK YOU for your campaigning!
anon for this
This economy is so weird. My HYSA now has a higher interest rate than my mortgage.
KL
That makes sense though. If inflation is high, the Fed wants to encourage people to save money by increasing interest rates which increase rates on HYSA.
Anon
Ok, I need some quick advice here. My stomach is in turmoil over this. I am the OP from the decision thread a couple of weeks ago. If you recall, my H got mad that I went to a rehearsal rather than go with him to an athletic event. He then proceeded to get angry and not speak to me for 2 days. Then he acted like everything was ok and we should be back to normal. So, I dwelt on it for several days and finally decided I needed to address it with him. I’ve been working at getting myself stronger and setting boundaries to save my insanity while I decide what to do about the marriage itself. So, I approached is as me having a problem with the way I was treated not trying to change him, but just to let him know that his actions were not acceptable to me (trying to set a boundary here). He responded with, “well I have something to tell you” and proceeded to tell me that the jeans I had been wearing to church lately were too tight and that he couldn’t believe I wouldn’t wear something more “age appropriate”. He also said that there were teen boys from our youth group who were saying things to our son regarding what I was wearing and giving him a hard time. Granted, they are skinny jeans and fit me well, but I have never thought they were too tight or not age-appropriate (50ish here). All of the adults at our youth group wear jeans and sweaters or sweatshirts or even legging, etc. Very casual time. Son said “yes, they are making comments and I agree with them”. I feel like H is dragging Son into this and using him as a manipulation tactic to get me not to wear the clothing that H doesn’t like. I will approach other parents, etc. to see what they have to say as I feel truly awful if I have actually offended anyone with what I wore. Other parents of teen boys, would they pay that much attention to what other parents wear? We are all in a large group for worship and meal. Think long tables for meal and then rows of chairs for worship with adults in the back.
Then break out to small groups, which I am involved in a young teen girl group, not boys. Thoughts?
Anon
Wait I’m so confused by this. You approached your husband about how he gave you the silent treatment after you went to your activity instead of his and he starts talking about the jeans you wear to church??? And involved your son. I’m so confused. WTF! There are so many problems with this. Did he just bring this up to change the subject and offend you? It sounds like he didn’t want to listen to your issues or accept any blame/fault and twisted the conversation. I’d require couples therapy and either way get your ducks in a row because this whole dynamic sounds awful.
anon
Don’t go to couples therapy with an abuser. He’ll just learn more techniques to manipulate you.
Senior Attorney
+1,000,000
I’ve done it and he just ranted about how awful I was while I sat there and cried.
Also it’s contra-indicated in all the professional literature.
Anon
+1 I went to family therapy with my abuser and sat there silently while she railed on about a different family member.
Anon
Get. A. Divorce.
Anon
But in the meantime, ignore this BS from your abusive husband and say nothing to anyone at church. Your jeans are fine.
Anon
100% this.
Anonymous
Your husband is such an abuser, my heart breaks for you reading this
pugsnbourbon
Nope, do not talk to the other parents. Call a lawyer. Your husband is emotionally abusing you and your son is learning to follow his lead. Leave him. Go to a different church.
Anon
Agree on all accounts. This is not about your clothing AT ALL. Your jeans are perfectly acceptable.
I hope you are safe and can find a way to disentangle yourself from him. This is not okay in any universe.
pugsnbourbon
I think I came off harsh when I meant to be urgent. You deserve a better life than what you are living now. You deserve to be safe and genuinely cared for. Even if you can’t imagine it now, it will be better after you leave him.
Anon
+1 to every single word of this. Your son is following his lead. This is urgent – you need to get out.
Mrs. Jones
+1 million and I am sorry about this abuse.
Anon
+1 I say this each time you post, this is emotional abuse and will not get better. I hope you can understand given his response that talking to him is pointless — you tried to talk to him about something he did wrong and he made up something about you to make you feel bad (this whole jeans thing is insane and not real). Please get therapy and please leave. We will support you. I doubt you are in NYC but if you are, I’ll buy you a drink.
Sunshine
Each of the posts you’ve made, including this one, sound like your husband is abusive/this is not a healthy relationship. The topic of discussion that you raised was not your attire. It was behavior surrounding the rehersal. However, rather than deal with that topic, he attacked what you’re wearing to church. This is not how adults in healthy relationships have conversations. Assuming for purposes of this discussion that your jeans are painted on and wildly inappropriate for church (which I doubt), your husband raised that topic to deflect from his behavior that you were trying to resolve. His comments were a diversion tactic only. Additionally, I think his comments about your jeans were really an attempt to control you, which is behavior consistent with your previous posts.
I applaud you for trying to set boundaries with him. I also suggest you don’t make a go at this alone. I’m not one of the people here who recommends therapy for everything, but I recommend it for you. A therapist would give a helpful sounding board to you and helpful scripts to use during conversations like this one. If you continue to try to set boundaries, his behavior will get far worse before it ever gets better.
Anon
I agree with all this, and would add that if you seek therapy, please do so at a place other than your place of worship (since they know your husband and that could seep into whatever discussion you have) AND do NOT get couples therapy. You need to figure out what’s happening for yourself. People who engage in these diversionary tactics and the silent treatment are often abusers, and they will attempt to manipulate the therapist and therapy process, so it is not in your best interest to get couples therapy with him.
No Face
+1 I agree with all this. You raised a concern about your marriage in good faith, and your husband deflected to try to make you feel bad about yourself. And he dragged your child into it, which is awful!
The path forward does not involve you trying to talk sense into your husband. He is showing you who he is. Time to believe him.
anon
wow this is not ok, OP. get out
Anonymous
What do you think we are going to say here? Your husband is abusive and you should talk to a lawyer and get a divorce. Same as we all said last time.
No. There is nothing wrong with your pants. He is abusing you.
Anon
Please show more compassion, for Christ’s sake.
Anonymous
Also do not approach other parents. Do not buy into his narrative at all. Get the divorce. Get therapy individually. Make plans for a safe exit.
Anonymous
ma’am if this is real you’ve already been told you need to get out. this entire post is scary and I hope you have a support system to get through this, but there are no thoughts necessary about jeans in church. That is not the issue you have.
Anon
Piling on here to say there’s no way your jeans are offending anyone, especially if the dress code is so informal.
You are right about this being spiteful and manipulative. Plan your exit.
anon
My thoughts are he’s emotionally abusive and you should not be in this marriage. This behavior is not normal. You do not deserve a controlling husband who belittles you. The skinny jeans are a red herring. Get therapy (you alone, not couples counseling) to help gain perspective.
Anon 2.0
This is abusive. Please call an attorney and get your affairs in order to leave. (And FWIW, I think people on this board screams divorce far too much, but in this case they are 100% correct.) To be frank, this does not sound like a healthy church as well (assuming the comments are true). Leave him and that church. You have ZERO reason to feel awful. If someone is “offended” by someone’s attire, that is 100% a THEM problem.
Walnut
Girl, there are problems here and it definitely isn’t your jeans. I’d be thinking hard about what your long game is, because your husband isn’t going to change. I’m so sorry – you don’t deserve this.
Anon
Get a divorce and find a new church. Eyes should be on God and not some woman’s rear end. Do not expose your children to the toxic modesty message.
I go to church and dress conservatively. My husband does not police what I wear, nor does my church.
Anon
You need to leave, immediately. He used this as a deflection to avoid talking about the issue you brought up, which is that he’s controlling and abusive. He then tried to act like what you’re wearing is an issue on par with his emotional abuse (you should never deflect the way he did in general, but the fact that it was something this trivial, and controlling and abusive, that he brought up speaks volumes.) He is actively trying to humiliate you and instill fear in you to return to the status quo of you only doing what he says and normalizing the level of control he has and wants.
There are no pair of skinny jeans in the world that are inappropriate in the way that you’re describing. They’re jeans. They cover what needs to be covered and they’re a very popular fit/style. Teenage boys are absolutely not the barometer for what you should and shouldn’t be wearing, as they will make fun of a kid for having the wrong color sweatshirt. That your husband is weaponizing your son against you is horrifying, and from the anxieties you voiced, it seems like it is working. First off: I am absolutely sure your jeans were fine. Second off: that doesn’t matter in the slightest. You are not married to a good man. He is controlling and abusive, and it’s causing you psychological and emotional harm. You did the only thing that you could in this situation, which is try to set a boundary. He responded in the most possible way. He is not willing to change and there is absolutely nothing you can do to fix him.
I get that leaving seems scary, but you really really need to. Talk to an individual therapist to start, as well as your family and friends. I would tell them all of the things that he says and does, without a filter or sugar-coating. I think having family and emotional support to help validate your decision will be helpful. This isn’t okay.
Sending you lots and lots of love.
Anonymous
Yes. This is important OP.
He is choosing to be abusive. He is choosing to try to humiliate you. He is choosing to control you by whatever means necessary, including using your son as a weapon.
He is choosing to behave this way. There is nothing you can do to make him choose otherwise, he wants to have control over you.
Please, OP, choose to get out. Make a secret plan to leave. Hide money away in a bank he cannot access. Delete all browser history. Call a domestic abuse hotline from a phone he cannot check to get help and make a plan. And be very careful, a lot of abusive men are very dangerous when they feel their control slipping.
Cat
You are totally fine. Get out of your marriage.
Anon
Oh My God. No, don’t ask other parents if your clothes offend them. Surely you saw as you were writing this out that your husband is completely gaslighting you here, turning your (completely reasonable) discussion with him about HIS unacceptable behavior into criticism about your body / clothing? He’s making you doubt yourself and crippling your self esteem to discourage you from ever criticizing or questioning any of his behaviors. I feel really, really sad for you that your take-away from this interaction was that there might be something wrong with YOU and not with HIM. These behaviors are not normal, not healthy, and you deserve better.
Anon
This is really, really emotionally abusive. I know it’s scary to leave, but I would take the first step of talking to everyone you know in real life about his behavior. Ask them what they think. Give details about his anger, his reactions, the way he’s deflecting, the fear you feel about upsetting him. Explain you’ve tried setting boundaries and it makes it worse. Ask if they will support you in trying to exit the marriage, even if it’s not immediate. Get a support system and sounding board in real life who can help you through this.
Senior Attorney
This might be a good idea but it might be dangerous, depending on what the church is like. I got a lot of support once I started talking about it, but I can well imagine religious communities where they would circle the wagons to protect the man.
Anon
Correct. I’d never do this in most religious communities I’m familiar with. “Stand by your man” is a deeply held belief in most of the churches in my community.
Anon
I feel like one of the actual functions of certain kinds of churches is to keep a spouse in check.
I’ve seen wives seem to use church as a source of pressure to keep men on good behavior. They want their husbands to feel pressured by other men to not be man children, to value family life, to steer clear of drinking, and so on. Basically wives are willing to put up with some patriarchal culture if part of the message is that men should man up a bit. But it is not too hard for men to figure out how to flip this around against their wives.
Vicky Austin
Yup. Get a non-church lawyer if you can and don’t confide in church friends. I’m sorry, OP. Keep us posted.
Anon
Leave him before this escalates to physical abuse. I’m sorry, OP. Sending you strength and love.
anon_needs_a_break
Please do not expend energy approaching other parents about your jeans.
Save that energy for building the confidence you need to leave this abusive relationship.
Anon
Get the F out. You’re married to a controlling assh*le.
Anon
Something is wrong with your church as well as with your husband.
I don’t understand if your stomach is in turmoil over the question whether what you wore was inappropriate, or if it’s in turmoil because your husband is being manipulative and your church is teaching young men including your own son to disrespect women based on what they wear.
I usually think commenters here rush very quickly to advising women to get out, but I think you need some distance from all of this and that with distance you would see how messed up this all is!
Anon
Oh honey, hugs to you. But you can see from the comments here that it is unanimous that his behavior is not right, and you need to leave him. If you are a regular reader than you know that the comments are almost NEVER unanimous, so please listen to them.
Senior Attorney
Oh, sweet OP! I was married to this exact guy, right down to “escalated the abuse when I started calling him out on it,” and “tried to get the religious community to take his side.” If he is anything like my ex, he will get worse the more you try to draw boundaries (which is not to say you shouldn’t draw boundaries — just be prepared!)
My thoughts are the same as everyone else’s: He is an abuser and he is trying to enlist your son. It’s not about the clothing, or the church, or anything other than his need to control you. Please, please, consult a lawyer to find out what your rights are, and make a plan to SAFELY leave this marriage.
Anon
My most serious concern about all this is the new information about how your husband is involving your son in your discussions as a couple. Big red flag about co-parenting, whether you stay togehter or divorced. (Ask me how I know…)
Please be safe and find ***safe*** sources of support in your community. (I share the concerns of others about how suportive you may find the church community as you work out these issues for yourself.)
Sending hugs!!!
Anonymous
You’re 50? How long have you putting up with this stuff? Was your husband normal or have you been putting up with this for years?
I’m so confused. Yeah, if this is real get out and I’m sorry to doubt you. If it’s real please know that this reads like a tr@ll because it’s so 100% on the nose abusive and you’re acting so bizarrely weird about it.
But this is so strange. You apparently belong to a really weird church that’s is scandalized by skinny jeans and you’re worried you offended people with them? Seriously were you raised Amish or something? What century are you living in that this is ok? What am I even reading?
Senior Attorney
OP, this is super mean, but maybe you can take it as a wake-up call to see just how beyond the pale his behavior is, and how living with him for so long has warped your idea of what is normal.
Anon
Have you never met a person in an abusive relationship? The dynamics at play are extremely complicated. She is not putting up with anything. She is in an abusive relationship. Of course she is not a t r oll, she is looking for support because she is being isolated by her husband and church.
Sunshine
This. I know it seems obvious to many people that this man is abusive and OP needs to get out. But it isn’t to her because she has been living as an abused woman, perhaps for decades. Coming to the realization about what is happening is hard for someone who has been in an abusive relationship. And deciding to take the huge and scary step to get out is even harder. Please everyone. Show a lot of grace and compassion for OP. She is in an absolute crisis point in her life. If we can be the community who supports her and helps her navigate her way to the other side, then we have done a great service for her and for her son. Being condescending or belittling to her will not help in any respect. I think that OP has even posted here and that she has now posted several times shows courage to start facing what is happening now and has happened in her adult life.
OP, we want to encourage you to continue to see what’s happening as it really is and help you move forward with your life. Please ignore the people who are being ugly to you.
Anonymous Canadian
I almost could not finish reading your post it was so heartbreaking. I agree with all of the other respondents here.
Please find a way out of this horrible situation and to the sort of live and love you deserve. Know we are all cheering for you to do so.
Anon
OMG dump him already.
Pep
“I will approach other parents, etc. to see what they have to say…”
No. I am begging you not to do this.
Anonymous
OP, posting late so you may not see, but re-read your post. See what happened there. You thought about something that was bothering you for a couple of days, you brought it up in a thoughtful way, and he completely turned it on you. Then, you came back to this group not to discuss how he turned it on you, but to actually ask about the issue he surfaced. His manipulation sickens me – you have to get help for yourself ASAP, as you need to build some strength for where this is headed. Please, please get help and don’t tell him.
Marie
Also only seeing this late, but it resonated with me that his manipulation tactic 100% worked, as he refocused you on something he claimed you were doing wrong rather than engage with you about a legitimate issue that you brought to his attention. Now, instead of having a conversation about mutual respect and communication that you were looking for, you are questioning what you were wearing to church and being made to feel ashamed of yourself. It is even more heartbreaking that he involved your son in trying to humiliate you. Really think about how this played out: you went to him with an issue that really upset you and instead of apologizing and addressing it, he created a situation that makes you think twice about confronting his poor behavior again because look how it is going to go-you are going to feel bad and be left questioning yourself on a completely unrelated topic. He knew exactly what he was doing here and his only goal was to “put you in your place” and break your confidence. I am so sorry this happened to you. Please seek treatment.
An.On.
In case this helps: we’re not suggesting you leave him because he told you your son thinks your pants are too tight for church. We’re suggesting you leave him because he is disrespecting you, he is mean to you, he is attacking your confidence and trying to keep you from the things you derive enjoyment from. Maybe in your head it sounds like a silly thing to potentially blow up your marriage over, but someone who is undermining you in this way is hurting you in a myriad of other invisible ways as well. It’s like having a chronic illness: you’ve been living with it so long, you’ve forgotten what it feels like not to live with it, but life can be better than this.
Coach Laura
I’m also very late but OP, please be careful with your computer trails. Use “incognito” or “private” mode. Lock your computer/tablet/phone if it isn’t already and make sure to change the password if you’ve had it for a while. If he asks why, say that there are a lot of scammers and hackers out there, which is 100% true. If he is knowledgeable about computers, be aware that there are “keystroke recorders” that can copy your keystrokes, perhaps even using incognito mode.
Same with talking to a lawyer and a therapist. You didn’t say if you work, but if you do, make your phone calls and internet searches there if at all possible.
If you don’t work and/or he is keeping tabs on you, you may be able to get an appointment with a doctor/nurse practitioner for a “yearly exam” and enlist the doctor’s help. Just don’t go to a doctor that is from your church community and preferably, go to a woman.
As far as talking to family and friends, sometimes even your own family will be opposed to divorce and/or side with the husband. Be careful who you talk to about this. Talking to a hotline and planning steps to take would be helpful too, plan for leaving with their help. Try the national domestic violence hotline at 1-800-799-7233 or text 88788. You haven’t “yet” experienced violence but these steps will help you keep from ending up a violence victim. Good luck!
Anon
anyone have a ceiling fan recommendation. we live in a hot state so we need them, but are looking to replace the ones in our home.
Cat
We love our Minka Aire Simples. Powerful, quiet (get the DC motor!), they blend so well into the ceiling we don’t even notice them.
OP
edited to add, i need ones that give off light, because they are the sole source of light in many rooms
Cat
I will again recommend Minka Aire Simples. You can buy them with a light kit :)
Anon
i live in TX and just read that the under 30 voter turnout was 1/4 less than in 2018, and 1/5 less for the African American population. How do we get people to actually vote?
anon
make it easier to vote? don’t assume it’s apathy but rather how do you give people resources to go out and wait in line for up to 2 hours that it takes in some of these states to vote. Or make it so that people don’t have to wait for 3 hours to vote.
Anon
This is crazy to me. I have never spent more than 30 minutes voting and that is mostly for driving and parking when I lived in the suburbs. How are things so backwards that people have to wait on long lines to vote? No one should have to spend more than 30 minutes. Have more voting locations. I literally walked across the street from my apartment, voted on a provisional paper ballot and was home in 15 minutes.
Anon
I mean, they make the lines shorter for the voters they want to vote, and longer for the voters they don’t want to vote. It’s a strategy.
Anon
This is even true in NYC. I’ve lived my whole life in outlying parts of the boroughs that are majority white and lean republican (the cop-firefighter-nurse-teacher parts) — I’ve never had to wait in a line of more than 3 people, and the polling location is never more than a 5 minute walk for me. My husband lived for years in a majority black district and had to wait in hours long lines every time he voted. Since moving to my neighborhood, he’s still surprised and excited at how quick it is. Meanwhile I didn’t realize it was this bad in parts of NYC!
Anon
Exactly. It’s a feature not a bug to the people who are rigging this system.
Anon
Who is “they”? In most states, the counties, cities, or towns run the polling locations.
Anon
“they” refers to rich old white men. Have you been paying attention?
Anon
I got spoiled, as my county in FL takes elections seriously and has really excellent practices in place. Than I moved to AL, where election day meant waiting in line at one of only a couple of locations in the entire county, being handed your ballot and herded into a room that didn’t have any booths, partitions, ANYTHING. It was so, so bad and now that I’ve since moved again, I will never take an easy voting experience for granted ever again.
Anon
we do have early voting, and those lines were super short. and i agree – there were lots of issues at the polls yesterday and court orders being issued in the evening
Anonymous
Stop blaming individuals for a system designed to make it hard to vote.
OP
i’m stuck living in TX for now, and i cannot change the system given who was reelected. instead, we have to get individuals to the polls
Anon
I suggest you read Stacey Abrams’s book.
Anon
Maybe Beto is a terrible candidate who doesn’t appeal to people????
Anon
This. I’d not be surprised if he never won state-wide office in Texas. Local, maybe. In a city.
Anon
then people should go vote for Abbott if they prefer him. it’s like in 2016 all the people who stayed home because they didn’t like their choices.
Anon
what’s wrong with him? also, but not voting you are essentially then endorsing the opponent
Anon
How many times does he have to lose before Democrats find another person in a massive, populous state to run for statewide office?
Vicky Austin
god literally this. If I have to care about Beto O’Rourke in one more election cycle I will end up on the news myself. Surely we have other candidates!
anon
Not a Texan, but this. Surely there is someone else.
Gifting help
Yep!! And I’d like to tell my friends preemptively to please miss me with their aspirations of him becoming president, which I’m sure will start up again in the next few weeks.
Anon
It’s also really hard when you’re moving frequently. You have to re-register every single time you move, and if you move within X weeks of the election (X being the number of weeks you have to register in advance of the election in that state), I’m genuinely unclear on whether you can vote at all. This is easy if you own a house and have lived there for decades, but for people who move every few months like I did in college, it’s really complicated. I often wasn’t on official leases or utility bills, so it would be complicated to show proof of residency, if that was required.
Luckily, I had stable parents who lived out of state and I used their address to vote absentee for years, but that wasn’t all that easy either. My state required an excuse for absentee voting (going to college out of state was a valid excuse) and required the signature of a witness who was a state resident, so it required quite a lot of work to get that taken care of and mailed back in time with an appropriate witness. It’s really easy to see how this can fall through the cracks.
I’m so glad to now live in CA where everyone gets a mail ballot, which makes voting a lot easier, but it still doesn’t completely solve the issues of not having a stable address.
anon
In my perfect world:
– People are automatically registered to vote once they hit 18 years old
– Everyone is sent a mail-in ballot
– Voting takes place over 2-3 days, including at least one weekend day
– Polling places have longer hours. Mine was only open until 7pm yesterday and I barely made it there after work
– There are plentiful drop boxes (not that Texas nonsense with one drop box per county)
– Primaries use ranked choice voting
– Exit polls are banned
– Results aren’t announced until polls close in all states
– Gerrymandering is eliminated
Anon
voting in my county in TX takes place over many many days with many locations, including weekend days. I voted early and waited maybe 2 minutes
Vicky Austin
Same
Anonymous
This would be amazing but it would never happen since it would be a fair election for the first time….ever? which Republicans can’t have.
Anon
Hum, maybe you should look into the problems with this before suggesting it.
Anon
Maybe you should articulate the problems rather than vaguely suggesting there are issues without specifying what those are. Particularly since this poster listed many ideas. Which ones have issues? All of them? Only the current system which makes it very challenging for some people to vote is ok?
Anon
And you can register at the polls on Election Day. That’s how we do it in MN, where our voter turnout is typically the highest in the nation, or close to it.
Anon
Make voting extremely easily.
But also, run better candidates?
I think a lot of people struggle to find the motivation to go vote between two candidates they regard as pretty bad, even if one is a lot worse than other. I don’t think is particularly rational, but I think it can even feel like consenting or becoming complicit. Many people feel that suffering because of something they actively did is worse than suffering because of not doing something. (Just look at everyone who is more terrified of vaccine side effects, because if they experience them it’s because they chose to get a vaccine, than they are of the disease itself, which they would only ever catch unwillingly!)
Anon
I want to get myself a classic (single breasted) camel colored wool coat. I want something that’s going to last me a few years at least. I would appreciate any specific suggestions in the under-$500 price range, and also in the price-is-no-object range :)
I’m a size 0/2, so needs to be a brand that runs on the smaller side (eg Lands End never fits me).
Anon
Poshmark. It might take a little time, but these classic coats can often be had for around 100 or so. I love my camel Loden coat that’s quite possibly older than I am but feels toasty warm and garners tons of compliments.
Abby
Jean Wang the blogger formerly known as Extra Petite posted one today on her insta!
Anne-on
I would go to the biggest department store you have close to you and them on/feel the wool in person. It’s really hard to tell the weight/quality of the coats online, and then stalk the one you like best for a thanksgiving/xmas sale.
Price is no object – Brooks Brothers (they have camel hair coats if that’s what you want), Mackage, The Fold, Senatler, Max Mara
Anon
Agree to Brooks Brothers, but I also got a very nice camel coat a few years ago from Macy’s. It wore well and looked new for years.
Anonymous
Boden.
Anon
Aritizia.
Anonymous
UK brand Hobbs has a camel wool coat called Tilda, sounds just like what you want. You can get it at Bloomingdales.
For the money is no object I would normally recommend Max Mara for a camel coat, but their most iconic look is belted, and the current coats are double breasted.
OP
Thank you all! Looks like Aritzia and Hobbs have options that are pretty much exactly what I had in mind
Anon
I think Reiss coats are beautiful.