Thursday’s Workwear Report: High-Waisted Pintuck Pant
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Our daily workwear reports suggest one piece of work-appropriate attire in a range of prices.
If I were to tell you my age without telling you my age, I would say that I am “My first suit included a pair of Express Editor pants” years old. Nearly two decades later, I still think of Express as a great destination for work pants in a variety of cuts.
These trousers have a higher rise than my beloved Editors (still available here!), but I like the pintuck detail and bi-stretch material. Plus, they’re machine washable, making them a great option for heavy rotation in your work wardrobe.
The pants are $88 at Express and come in regular, long, and short sizes 0–14. They also come in “coral blush.”
For a plus-size option, try these pants from Standards & Practices — they're available in sizes 14–22 in black and forest green for $68.
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Hunting for more dress pants for work? These are some of our Hall of Famers…
The best dress pants for women as of 2022: one / two / three / four / five / six (not pictured but also and also!) — also check out our roundup of the best pull-on pants for the office!
Sales of note for 1/31/25:
- Ann Taylor – Suiting Event – 30% off suiting + 30% off tops
- Nordstrom – Cashmere on sale; AllSaints, Free People, Nike, Tory Burch, and Vince up to 60%; beauty deals up to 25% off
- Banana Republic Factory – 50% off everything + extra 20 off your $100+ purchase
- Boden – 15% off new season styles
- Eloquii – 60% off 100s of styles
- J.Crew – Up to 40% off winter layers
- J.Crew Factory – 50% off sweaters and pants
- Rothy's – Final Few: Up to 40% off last-chance styles
- Spanx – Lots of workwear on sale, some up to 70% off
- Talbots – End of season clearance, extra 70% off markdown tops + extra 60% off all other markdowns
Just for fun… if you had 6 months off and were still paid your regular salary, what would you do?
I think I’d take an RV and go to the national parks.
Ideally I’d take it from May to November. Lots of fun summer adventures with my family, soaking up all the local fall stuff and lots and lots of travel (mostly international – I feel like I’ve seen what I want to see in the US except all the National parks, which are tough with little kids who can’t really hike).
Same but I’d do July through December – that way I could do all the holiday cooking and baking and activities without pesky work getting in the way! I’d have to have my parents or someone stay with the kids in September and October though. :)
Ah I love even dreaming about this! I’d head to Europe for a leisurely exploration of beautiful places I’ve whisked through. I’d start in Paris
Ooh I want to play.
2 weeks: nothing
3 months: music (voice lessons, pipe organ lessons, cello chamber music)
2 months: sewing/crafting/organizing my goddamn house
2 weeks: cooking all my favorite things because my six months are almost over
Eat my way through all of France.
I agree with you. If I had 6 months off with pay, I would probably not come back after 6 months eating cocoa vin and champayne in Burgundy. Even the French guys look alot better now, after watching Emily in Paris on Netflix. Has anyone else watched Emily in Paris? I love Emily and wish I was as cute as she was when I was in my 20’s.
Travel Australia.
+1. Do a big bucket list trip.
Treat writing as my day job and finish my novel plus get a chunk of the way into the sequel. Plus travel across North America
This is also my answer! Not sure about the travel part, but I’d devote myself to my writing for sure.
I think I’d use it to spend a couple of months each living in some places I’ve considered for eventual relocation: Scotland, the Canadian maritime provinces, Tasmania.
Oh man.
Bit of nothing.
Bit of bucket list vacation my fam has always wanted to go on (Switzerland!).
Bit of hide out in a cabin somewhere beautiful for as long as I could swing it, just reading, writing, cooking and hiking with my dog.
Bit of Get My Life Together time right before heading back to work.
In the nerdiest of nerd activities, I’d like to write two books of family history for my grandmother’s side and my grandfather’s side. I’m the genealogist for the family, and I’m the only one who knows it. If I don’t write it down, who will? I’ve loved family history ever since my grandfather used to tell stories about his childhood after dinner.
And if two genealogies isn’t enough, I’d love to write a book about the family that built our historic house. They don’t have any living descendants, so there’s no one to tell their story. They were just your average American family (though well-known in our small town), but their story comes to life if you’re a nerd like me and can parse the tales out of the dry tax and census records. (“Oh, there was a major drought that year in this area. So sad to see the crops didn’t produce for Richard.”)
Anyways, genealogy really takes time to dig into and be conversant with all the branches and know, “Wait, was it the second generation that had that will in the local library or the third?”, that kind of thing. It’s kind of like a foreign language – you need to be immersed.
I love this answer
I’d travel a bit, but I’d also like a few months to just be home and knit all the things I’ve been wishing I had the time to work on, and baking all the things so I can pretend I’m on GBBO.
I wouldn’t have money to travel much in this scenario,but I would first get my home in order,do as much DIY repair as possible, and hopefully get a handyman to complete some projects. After that I’d focus on some fitness goals work on some cooking and reading, and have friends and neighbors over a lot.
Actually, I might try to get a retail or restaurant job a few days a week, too. I have always wanted yo be able yo take a job in one of my local shops.
May through June, definitely (we have school age kids and homeschooling is NOT part of the fantasy lol)-
May through early June – sleep a lot, do all the things around the house, run a lot
June through Aug – travel the entire time (kids and husband in tow). With that amount of time we could either rent a super tricked out RV and see large amounts of the US, or do large amounts of Europe. Or, Asia / South Pacific. Probably highly weather and exchange-rate dependent.
Sept and Oct – kids are back in school. I do even more things around the house, sleep a lot, run a lot, test out a writing idea that I think could be hugely fun and lucrative if only I had time and brainspace.
I mean, presumably in this scenario I’d still need to pay rent and bills so I don’t think I could splurge on luxurious travel. Honestly, I would do nothing. I love doing nothing. Read, sleep, watch TV. A few years ago I was laid off and received a few months’ severance and that’s basically all I did until I found another job.
I basically did this a few years ago but without the “getting paid” part—I was burnt out. I did a preplanned international trip for a few weeks, relaxed a lot, did some local adventures, took a couple weekend trips to other cities, took a couple weeks to visit family, helped plan a big convention for a hobby (was already going to but was able to put a lot more effort in), did a mini road trip to a national park, and then spent a month in another country (re)learning the language and traveling around. It was amazing, though there were definitely some times where I could’ve done more, I was ok going back to work after that (and my bank account was very happy I was)
About 22 years ago, I was lucky enough to take a six-month sabbatical to travel and live in Spain with my then boyfriend (now husband). After flamenco and Spanish lessons as well as travel, I found myself bored and ready to return to work. Two kids, and a demanding job later, I would kill to have that time again. I’d spend it traveling, reading, and cycling my way through Europe. And no, I wouldn’t be bored and ready to return to work…
I travel a lot for work so I might prioritize just one special two-week trip that takes a lot of planning and energy in the 6 months (like to Patagonia, Indonesia or Japan, places on my lifetime wish list). The rest of the time I would actually spend nurturing core interests I haven’t managed to fit in my practical life – astrophysics (I studied physics in college, but now work in an unrelated area and haven’t touched the sciences for decades) and learning the cello. For the first, I’d enroll to audit a class or two, brush up on reading, and visit CERN in Geneva. For the second, I’d take bi-weekly lessons and have a goal of practicing for an hour a day and eventually being able to play some Bach. I think the time would feel like finally getting back to my whole self and enriching my core interests unrelated to work, and it would be a good investment I could then take forward beyond the 6 months.
I studied astrophysics in college too and also now do something unrelated. It was fun to read this :)
Yay physics nerds!
Hello wise hive! How can I find an exact interior paint match? My basement was painted a beautiful blue by the original owners. I’d love to match it but I can’t get it to photograph accurately. I’ve gotten some paint chips but not really close.
Thank you
We have a little tool…I think it’s the color muse but there are others. Seems to work well.
Maybe not the best method, but when I was trying to match ceiling paint I took a box cutter and sliced out a small square from an innocuous spot. Took it to Home Depot and they were able to match it perfectly.
Yup this.
+2, you only need maybe a 2″ square for them to get a good scan of it. Works great.
This. Even if it’s like a 0.5in chip of paint. They have a automated machine that will scan and mix.
+3 they can colormatch much better with a chip of paint than they can with a picture.
Two options for you. 1. you can match it with something like the Sherwin-Williams colorsnap app. Most major paint companies have a similar app technology. The downside of this is that it’s basically taken a photograph, so lighting conditions will influence. I counter this by doing the match at multiple times of day and seeing what is a common factor. 2. If you can get a piece of drywall or paint (~2″ sq) to come off (which may require some surgery in a closet or other hidden place), you can take that to your paint store of choice for them to match on their in-store spectrometer. This is more accurate, but requires you to remove some of your paint.
Always worth looking through garage/mudroom/ random closets to see if the old paint can is still around somewhere. Those have the formula on them and will get you an exact match.
If you have trim or molding, check to see if the paint was applied behind them. If so, that is a good place to cut off a bit to take in for a color match, because then you don’t need to patch the wall. Most paint counters have analyzer tools that can match the color really well.
Ah perfect – will do! Thank you all for your help today
Get a Pantone chart and compare it then get the number.
Just wanted to share that my husband is in his office today, my kid is at school after a week off due to Covid, and I FINALLY have a quiet house and control of the thermostat while I work. It.is.glorious.
I envy you. My husband’s company decided to demolish their office building, so we are both WFH forever. I can’t take it much longer.
That’s awesome! In a funny twist, my husband is home with COVID, our unborn child and I are awaiting test results, and our cooling system is broken in 80+ degree weather.
It’s not that funny. But I was actually cheered to read your comment because I wasn’t grateful for all I had before this week.
Ack! I hope you can get someone out to fix the AC ASAP!
Um, no, you don’t have someone over for an extended period of time while everyone has Covid or likely will soon. At the very least, you need to be VERY upfront. That service worker is a person, too, who likely has their own family and may be vulnerable or have others around them who are.
AC units are outside, aren’t they? But yes, disclose that someone has COVID.
Yeah, the AC person usually doesn’t come inside and might not even have to talk to you. But disclose and mask if you do have to interact with them.
The compressor is outdoors. The condenser is indoors, usually in the garage. The repair person will also have to fiddle with the thermostat. But if your condenser is in the garage, the repair person can probably instruct you on what to do at the thermostat by phone and handle all the work outdoors and in the garage.
Our condenser for the upstairs unit is in our attic that you reach by going through our bedroom. The one for the downstairs unit is in the basement near our water heater–that you reach by going through a hallway, kitchen and family room. So wouldn’t assume it is just an outdoor only activity.
You definitely need to be upfront, but at 80F+ temperatures, repairing AC or acquiring some form of real cooling starts to become non-optional, especially when people are sick. And under the circumstances, its not like getting a hotel room is a better option than having one AC tech mostly outside your home.
Disappointed in you, Pugs. Nobody in “the West” should have air conditioning given the disastrous consequences for racial/environmental/LGBTQ justice in the predominantly brown global south.
whaaaaat? how is this Pugs’ fault? very schoolmarmy of you to be “disappointed” in the single non-anonymous poster in this thread.
okay
Wait what? Assuming you aren’t a troll, this is somewhat like saying that no one should have children or drive gas powered cars. Moving toward drawdown is a matter of electrification, moving the power grid to renewables, and (required) carbon capture. Requiring humans to massively make individual choices toward discomfort and/or lack of participation in the economy is a recipe for failure. Use your energy toward policy changes (e.g. no new gas-powered infrastructure in states with good hydropower, shutting down coal plants, supporting clean nuclear) that makes large scale impact. 350 climate allies or your local Sierra Club will know the local fights.
Whoops, you’re right. I should thought more before I posted.
Nah, some people need to get over themselves. Post away, it’s fascinating watching as people let their anxiety bleed through their fingertips onto their keyboards when they reply.
You’re fine. Those opposed to AC should have to spend an entire in-air conditioned summer in inland south Georgia, while being expected to be a productive member of society. In fact I’m going to wish it on them: Anon at 11:39, may you spend an entire summer in the inland Deep South without ac, whilst having to keep up a normal work and personal life.
Nah, even with COVID, I’d encourage responsible high-quality paper (not cloth masks) and still wish for the HVAC tech! Also, hope all the many many changes underway are going okay for you and your wife, Pugs!
I’m trying to shop my closet and I’m stuck on how to style this skirt for work: https://www.saksoff5th.com/product/nanette-nanette-lepore-striped-knit-skirt-0400016032618.html
Oh I think this is one that you should give to me. And I would wear it with a coral shirt for summer, and maybe autumn orange for fall.
Agreed, I could also see it working with pink or blue tones. I’d go for any top that is fitted, not a flowy blouse.
I feel like wearing a color with this would cheapen it so much. No to these suggestions!
Well, I am bored by outfits without color.
Then don’t buy an elegant black and white skirt.
lol, what are you, the fashion police?
I think cobalt blue would look very nice. For a bit more subdued, maybe olive?
Ooo love the idea of olive with this!
A white button up tucked in ( maybe the bodysuit style so it actually stays tucked) would also be pretty.
Cute! Crisp white blouse tied at the waist?
For work?
I would, not tied up as a crop top, but you can certainly style a shirt that way for the office. Just knot it lower and wear a tank underneath.
+1.
-1
I am boring – I would do a black knit top and maybe a black blazer and loafers or possibly white sneakers (if I wanted to dress it down). Could see wearing it with my silver birks, too, but maybe not *in* the actual office.
Any combo of solid white, gray or black top + white, gray or black blazer cardigan.
White on white for the summer
Black on black for winter
A nice black sweater or tee and call it a day. I think black is going to look better than white with it.
The Quince cashmere tee in black or white. The pink color would be okay but I tend to agree that color cheapens this great skirt. I like it with heeled sandals or flat pointed slingbacks..
I don’t understand the “cheapens” comment. I think life is too short to live it in neutrals!
Actually, you know what would look great with this skirt, if it works for your complexion? Neon lime green. I’m not even joking – I love that color with gray.
I am seeing now that this is navy not black. So navy, white, or pink work. I think there is a more cobalt blue in that sweater that could also work. I don’t hate the idea of the neon green, and I wear that color well, actually. I think color takes this down in sophistication but it can certainly live in two worlds in your wardrobe and you can get more use out of it that way.
I also love neon green with navy blue!
I guess I feel like all neutrals can be sophisticated if done right, but easily veers into boring. I also think all black with just one color looks cheap (maybe all black with gray or camel is okay, but that whole “column of black” with a different color jacket or cardigan, eh, boring and dowdy) and like one doesn’t know anything about color. Similarity, combining colors can also look quite sophisticated when done right.
What is a good amount for a Brooks Brothers gift card for a young man 26 years old in a software sales role? Want to get him gift card to invest in good professional clothing….$250?
Are you sure Brooks Brothers is the right style? I’m in Silicon Valley and I don’t think Brooks Brothers would be the best choice here for that kind of job.
OP here…we are in Northeast, not Silicon Valley. Interested in your recommendations ….thanks
I’m also in the Northeast, and I’ve been working in the Boston area tech industry for nine years; while I think it depends on where exactly you’re working, I do think Brooks Brothers might still be a little stuffy for someone working at a software company, even if you’re in sales and not development. I second the recommendations for Nordstrom and Bonobos, Indochino might be good too if there’s one near him. Macy’s is always a good choice as well.
+1 – I’d go for Nordstrom over Brooks Brothers (and I adore Brooks Brothers). Nordstrom will allow for mixing in polished pieces (chinos/slacks) with something that has more ‘personality’ – nicer t-shirts, a bomber jacket, etc.
+1
Brooks Brothers is great for more conservative cultures (law, banking, etc.) but may be too conservative for tech.
My recommendation: Bonobos.
Bonobos is a great recommendation – since he’s in sales, if he needs suits they’ll have that, but also more casual options. I think Nordstrom would work, too, but the men in my life don’t tend to shop department stores? They tend to do j. crew, bonobos, everlane, etc.
Nowhere does she say Silicon Valley? You guys are making some very big assumptions.
ok speaking from Philly – software sales guys are not wearing Brooks Bros. They are maybe wearing stretchy chinos, those Cole Haan loafer-sneakers with the white sole, and a trendy button down or a company-branded polo or quarter-zip.
Speaking from Boston, and same. It does depend on where specifically you’re working, but for most places around here, Brooks Brothers is not the vibe. OP, I don’t recommend this unless you know he likes BB and doesn’t mind dressing a little differently from his colleagues.
yeah don’t go to Brooks Brothers for that. I would suggest Nordstrom for a wider range of appropriate styles.
Can anyone recommend a life coach? I’d like to work on some stuff around imposter syndrome in addition to navigating a job transition. Katie Seaver had caught my eye, but I’d rather not shell out $15K for 6 months ;)
I’ve worked with Calhoun Coaching and was pleased. They have a workshop on Imposter Syndrome if you want that as a starter or just do individual coaching.
I am getting ready to start working with Sheila Wilkinson based off a recommendation I received here. She does a free session to see if you are a fit/if she can help and I found her to be excellent based on that. her 3 month program is about a third of that.
Thanks!
Is there some magical way to consolidate my work calendar on outlook and my personal calendar on gcal? For Reasons, I have to use both for different sources of stuff.
Not sure what you mean by consolidate, but I send invites to all the calendars I need the information to go to (ie., my work, my personal, my husband). My work meetings obviously don’t need to go elsewhere but dinners and trips do, basically anything that overlaps with personal time.
+1, I mark them as private on my work cal as needed.
Do you have to manually send an invite for each thing or is there a way to auto-invite?
I’ve never tried any sort of auto-invite feature – it takes 2 seconds to send an invite as needed, so once you’re in the habit it’s NBD.
If your IT setup allows, you can add your gcal to your Outlook and subscribe to it so it syncs. It adds it as another calendar that you can toggle to view or not; it doesn’t add gcal stuff to your Outlook calendar directly.
The Reclaim app
I have limp fine hair that swells in humidity. The gray hairs are 50% like my brown hair and 50% completely wiry pieces that look like a transplant from an albino Brillo pad. I can color this but it is still a hot mess — 90% fine limp hair and 10% bad perm and in the humidity it is even worse. What is the real fix I should be doing? Other than a buzz cut, which I have started thinking about but my cheeks are too puffy for me to pull off well (if I had better bone structure tho . . .).
I know this is controversial in some crowds but I did keratin for this exact problem. There are a couple of different kinds and I went with one that is less stick straight and more tame frizz. Good luck!
I was going to suggest keratin or a clear glaze. A clear glaze can be done by a stylist (for best results) or you can do it at home yourself with a kit from Ulta/CVS/Sephora.
If you want short hair but a buzz cut is too far, a short pixie might do the trick.
I did a glaze recently and really liked the outcome. I plan on doing it again when this one wears off.
How do you handle a male partner trying to talk over you/step on your territory? I am not a partner but on the cusp and am running all these deals independently. So he is not my supervisor on these. We just sometimes work on two pieces of the same deal (with my piece being the material one) and he often talks about my stuff like he is the one running my part. It happens both on internal calls/emails and external with clients.
Not in law, but I am in finance. My solution is to not give the other person access to my data (save it somewhere away from the shared network drive for example). When asked for information from someone like that I would just say it’s probably faster to loop me in and I will tell the client/supervisor directly. Not ideal and it does establish a bit of a tit-for-tat, but usually helps for me to show my contribution.
I had one colleague that was so bad, I would send my work to clients a half day or so before sharing with the colleague. Then when he stole my work and tried to take credit, it would look bad on him because everyone had already seen my version.
I’m sorry you’re dealing with this. It sucks.
That’s so annoying. I want to tell you that it improves when you become a partner but… it really depends on the person.
I agree with the other commenter to limit his insight into your work, if you can. Is there anything you can do to be more assertive and take more control? Always be the first to speak on a phone call or meeting with the client. It is YOUR meeting and you are running it. You’d et the agenda, you decide how much time is spent on each topic and when it’s time to move on, you provide a summary at the end of the call and talk about next steps. Don’t cede control of anything.
You’ll probably have to tread lightly when you do this because of how fragile the male ego is, but make an appointment to talk to him about this case — preferably in your office if your’re back in the office. Thank him for his assistance on these deals with his pieces of the puzzle, and then just tell him you’d appreciate it if he’d just you handle communicating with the client regarding your part of these deals. You have the experience in that area of the law, and the client is paying for your experience and analysis. (OK, it’ll be a challenge to bring that part up in a delicate manner; I’m just irritated on your behalf.) Most likely he’ll have some blowback or attempt at constructive criticism. That’s when I like to learn a trick I learned doing improv comedy: “yes, and….” Instead of “no” or some other response that escalates the situation, saying those two words usually seems to use the other person’s momentum against them, even if what you say afterwards doesn’t actually agree with them.
Good luck dealing with this guy. If he doesn’t stop after you bring it up directly, getting one of his fellow partners involved may help.
Poll for corporate parents: at what age did your child(ren) get their first smartphone?
Also, any tips on how to teach a child to be responsible with their first phone?
I think 12 or 13? We don’t have a home phone, so when we started leaving kid home alone, they got a smartphone so they had a contact method available.
We use the built-in iphone parental screen time controls. Started with basically just allowing it to be a phone with very limited allowed contacts, then have made permissions more lax as it made sense. Now it pretty much has no restrictions other than time limits so our 17 year old doesn’t spend 10+ hours a day on the device all summer.
8th grade, and reminded kids clearly that
our family policy of we only buy the first one (of anything) applies here too.
If we had needed to replace them because they lost them ( for our mental health) we would’ve gotten them flip phones.
My daughter is 8 and among her 8/9 year old friends the trend has been to give them your “old” phone to use as just a camera, a way to play games on a phone that isn’t mine, and to teach them not to lose it. My daughter doesn’t have one yet, but many of her friends have phones that are essentially ipads.
We have a landline and my kids use that to call me when I’m out, or call grandma/grandpa.
Many kids in upper elem around here have gizmo watches or similar. My kids don’t have one but they haven’t really asked, either. I think 6th-7th grade will be when they get their own phone.
Middle school.
Rules, find my iPhone is always on. I can check their social media and history any time. (I eased off this as they got older)
Rules:
Everything charges on the desk in the kitchen, so not in your room overnight. We had a firm policy of ending use at 9PM.
I have access to anything on it, whenever I want. I checked this less than she thought, because she wasn’t a boundary tester and I didn’t have to. What I did find was that she got left out of some catty late night tween girl conversations because those girls didn’t want me to see and tell their moms. Being left out of that made it so much easier for her to avoid, and I think was a great help to her in middle school. She just got to skip through some of that stuff and didn’t have to decide who hurt who’s feelings by not sitting with them on the bus.
Mine had a flip phone (no internet) at 7 because we had a carpool for sports and things sometimes went wrong. When she started middle school at 12 she got a smart phone. I explained that cellular data is expensive so not to use internet unless she had WiFi (I turned off cellular data but did show her how to turn it on for emergencies). I also told her I would not protest if the school took it because she broke their phone rules. I did not worry about her losing or breaking it; my kid has not lost so much as a sweater since she was in elementary school.
Our rules were pretty basis. I had the right to know where the phone was and what she was doing on it while she was under 18. I periodically reviewed her privacy settings with her and checked what apps she was using. I had the (never exercised) right to inspect her browser history and mail/messages. No looking at her phone when she is at the table or talking to an adult. I added that I was not going to make a bunch of rules unless I had to so I would trust her until she gave me a reason not to – but that if she gave me a reason not to she would be back to a flip phone.
She is in college now and it worked well. We recently discussed her friends’ parents surveilling them and how much they (the friends) resent it. I asked her if she minded me sometimes using Find my iPhone and she said no because (1) I only do it to see if she is safe and never to challenge where she is or what she is going and (2) she does the same thing to me (usually when she knows I have been traveling and wants to see if I made it home).
I think this is very much a “know your kid” situation. With a different child I might have had different rules – but mine would be responsible if I gave her room to be responsible and would resented an unearned lack of trust.
Kid is 7, so we are fielding requests but not ready to give in to them yet. She will probably get a phone in middle school, but right now I am pretty set on one that has voice/text capabilities but no social media. I’m really concerned about the effects of social media on teenage girls and would like to delay that as long as possible, or set it up on my phone for her so we do it together.
The FB group Parenting in a Tech World has tons of resources on how to navigate this space.
We gave our son one of our old phones at age 12. It didn’t have a cell signal, just wifi. We activated the cell service on it when he went away on a weeklong school trip, so he could call us.
My husband put a ton of control apps/software on that first one, which ultimately did not matter as many of his friends’ parents just handed their kids a phone with no parental controls or monitoring software and said “have at it.” Some of these same kids had unmonitored computers in their bedrooms starting from age 10. So anything he couldn’t look up on his phone I’m sure got searched-for on his friends’ phones or computers. So much for best-laid plans. We did tell him if he lost the phone or it got broken, he wouldn’t be getting a new phone until he could pay for it himself. Our kid is pretty responsible with his things, and so he never lost it or broke it.
He has a different phone now (other one’s battery got too unreliable to keep using it, and he actually saved up and paid for half of a refurbished Nexus phone from T Mobile) and we have some monitoring on there, but not as much. He’s 16 now, there’s not much he can’t find or see if he wants to, so we make a pretense of monitoring the phone but in actuality, don’t do much monitoring. He has no interest on being on social media – he thinks we are dumb for having Facebook and LinkedIn accounts, “you’re just putting all your information out there for anyone to grab it whenever they want,” etc. so we don’t worry too much about social-media bullying or hijinks. They’ve had comprehensive training delivered at his school about online predators, and we’ve talked to him about it at length also (especially sending or receiving nude photos). His friends use group text to communicate, or they get on Xbox and talk that way. I have seen him use the “phone” feature of his phone exactly once, when my mom called him.
We’re overnighting at Newark on the way home from a Europe trip next month. Is the Marriott the best place to stay? We’re not interested in seeing the local area, just getting as much sleep as possible since our flight home leaves at 6 am. We have family in NYC who might come meet us for dinner, but they’re not picky and are fine eating at a hotel restaurant.
Yes, I think the Marriott is the best option. It is basically at the airport and is totally fine for an airport hotel.
I’ve stayed at the Marriott Hotel at Newark airport many times. It’s a nice hotel and very convenient.
While I do think that Amber Heard lied about some events, I also think Depp did hit her at least once. And I think she hit him. I believe the correct verdict would have awarded them both zero. I think this reflects some backlash on the Me Too movement and I’m concerned other women will be scared to come forward.
I think they hit each other too, but I’m not sure why that means she should be awarded $0. He was suing her for defamation for saying she was abused. If he hit her, she was abused and thus did not defame him. It’s irrelevant whether or not she also hit him.
Totally agree. I don’t get it either. Furthermore she never actually named Depp or even outright said she was abused yet that was defamation?!
Whatever the laws may be, it always feels a bit trivializing to imply that every act of hitting everywhere is always abuse, and everyone person who has ever been hit is now an abuse victim who has been abused. I guess I just can’t bring myself to care if people are behaving like out-of-control children to begin with.
?????????????????????????
This is upsetting. Hitting someone is abuse.
We can define things that way if we want. But I don’t truly feel that I’m a victim of abuse because “one time my sister fought with me over the hairbrush and we were both under five years old and she hit me.” All I meant is that sometimes people who are the age of adults seem to behave as immaturely as children.
A five year old hitting another 5 year old is not the same as an adult man hitting his wife. If an adult is behaving “like a child” and there is violence involved, the ramifications are wildly different than if it is two children.
Ummmmm… you can see how an adult intimate partner hitting someone is vastly different from a child hitting a sibling once in a squabble, right? We (should) expect certain emotional regulation in adults so that society can function without violence. I would argue any instance of one adult hitting another in an intimate partnership is abuse (unless it is a consensual BDSM situation). There might be nuances to some situations in terms of whether there is one abuser or more than one abuser, or if the person being hit is truly consenting in some way.
It is not a good-faith argument to say “My sister hit me once when we were 5 years old, and therefore a grown man hitting a woman one time is not abuse.”
I think the problem was the jury didn’t believe her. I really don’t think we should take any larger conclusions away from this trail – it was a total mess. There was a good article on TNR. I think juries not believing a specific woman in a set of insane circumstances, where there’s substantial evidence she leveraged the abuse (whether it happened or not) to literally promote her new movie is not an inditement of the Me Too movement.
I agree. People are saying a lot of “oh this is a step back for domestic violence cases” etc but I think this case is just wild and not extendable to other situations. They both did things, there is a whole publicity angle, there’s a lot going on.
I tend to agree. Even people I know IRL who early on seemed to take a side with either Depp or Heard had become totally disgusted with the whole thing by the end of the trial and just wanted it to be over. If the trial was meant to “clear his name,” I think the opposite happened: having all those disgusting text messages read into evidence didn’t help; neither did the video and audio evidence of their fights, where it was clear he was high or drunk most of the time. So much evidence came out about his drug/alcohol use that I honestly had no idea about before the trial – to the point that now, I don’t think the dude needs more big movie contracts, I think he needs to go to rehab. Rather than tamping down the conversation about whether or not he was abusive, the televised trial ratcheted the whole thing up to 11. I think he’s got more image problems now than he had before. Those text messages and some of the things he said in the recordings will be on the Internet forever. So winning the $10.35 million is kind of a Pyrrhic victory. His superfans are supportive of him no matter what, but the average folks I know are just kind of disgusted and over it already.
I am not sure what to think about her, other than I think appealing the decision is a mistake as it will just continue this whole thing in the press ad nauseum. If she wants to move on with her life, she should let her insurance pay out the judgment and move on with her life. I believe her and I don’t agree with the judgment and I don’t think Depp was defamed. But I also think sometimes peace is better than being proven right. She has a small child and she’s had to spend a substantial part of her daughter’s life on all this nonsense. Maybe better to put it to bed and move forward, if Depp will leave her alone (which I don’t think is assured).
What kind of insurance would be responsible for paying this? Even putting that aside, it’s a deliberate act so I’m sure any carrier would disclaim coverage.
Perhaps an umbrella policy? I’m not sure what the exclusions on those are like but they are pretty common.
I read in multiple news accounts that her homeowner’s insurance was going to be responsible for covering the damages if she lost the case. Apparently her policy is one of those that covered defamation. Whether they’ll actually do it is another matter.
As an FYI, when Vince Neil had that drunk-driving accident back in the 80s that killed one person and severely injured the other two, Motley Crue’s business-liability insurance handled the payouts. They were able to frame the party he’d come from as a “business meeting.”
Agreed on the jury not believing her. Most people in my circle that watched the trial found that her story just was not credible and there were enough witnesses calling into question her version of events. As a trial lawyer, I’d tend to go with the jury got it right on the credibility assessment – and, know that the single biggest way to lose a jury is to get greedy with your allegations. His lawyers were circumspect and owned the warts on their client. Her lawyers let her make new allegations on the stand. There are tons of interesting questions if the verdict will stand up on appeal.
As a human, the trial demonstrated that they had a very, very toxic relationship. I don’t know enough to be able to say where it fits in the spectrum of domestic abuse, or even what language to use to describe their relationship other than mutually toxic.
I disagree that it doesn’t reflect on other cases. The jury wants her to pay for $15 million for having written she was a public figure representing domestic violence. If she was hit once, that’s enough. Many witnesses came forward to indicate that she had been hit.
A jury disliking her and thinking she lied or exaggerated about other aspects of their relationship, and then insisting none of her claims of abuse count based off of that, and that she cannot speak about her experience without incurring huge fines… that puts a lot of pressure on future domestic violence victims to prove that not only were they hit, but they were perfect and likable etc, just in order to speak or write about their experience at all without being sued.
FWIW, Marilyn manson is already trying to hire the same attorneys for his upcoming case where he’s suing his abused ex for defamation. It’s a witch hunt against anyone who comes forward and it has very scary ramifications for women everywhere.
I’m with anon at 11:57. It shouldn’t be expanded to other cases, sure, and there are some weird fact patterns and they both seem like godawful toxic and abusive people, but it WILL be extended and the alt right and abusers are thrilled about it.
+1.
Exactly. The stakes to write or talk about abuse now are way, way higher than actually abusing someone.
This.
I hope they both fade into obscurity now. Carted off like the trash they are.
It’s the jury’s job to judge credibility. She wasn’t credible. It’s possible that not every woman should be believed. It’s ok for others to see that you can’t just make stuff up, ruin someone’s reputation and walk away like it’s nothing. The Trevor Bauer and Deshaun Watson situations now are also examples. I’m interested to see where those lawsuits will go.
Depp ruined his own reputation by partying too hard and not showing up for work on time. Part of what is incredible to me about the verdict is that the jury apparently disregarded the testimony of industry executives, including one from Disney, who said the op-ed had no bearing on Disney’s decision not to hire Depp; it was Depp’s own behavior that caused his downfall. Easier to blame the woman, I guess.
I totally agree with you OP. I think what is bothering me is seeing all the out and out celebrating that’s happening. I don’t think a win for either of them should have been reason to celebrate. That verdict didn’t magically make him someone less mean, substance-fueled and violent. But it fits the narrative folks wanted of successful, good-time Charlie rising up against the “lying slut.”
I think the issue was not who abused who, or how much or how badly, but rather that she presented herself as purely a victim in that op Ed, casting him as the villain and herself as just the abused. It seems clear from the trial that they both have the potential to be awful, sometimes were awful, and that it was a toxic relationship. If you take that as a truth, the. She shouldn’t have put out the op ed piece casting herself as the victimized person.
She said she was a public figure representing domestic violence. That was the line the entire trial rested on. Not “I am a perfect victim and never did anything wrong.”
This. I think she’s a messy person, and I certainly wouldn’t want to be in a relationship with her. But I also think it’s very clear she was a victim of domestic violence and that’s what the entire trial was about.
Except she wasn’t representing domestic violence victims by virtue of being abusive herself.
Someone can be abused and also react in a way that is abusive, it’s called “reactive abuse.” It’s what happens when abused women kill their husbands. Amber being “abusive” to Depp doesn’t negate what he did to her.
I think defamation suits will be more frequent, and it will have a chilling effect on people even when there is no way their ex would win a defamation lawsuit.
One thing I do wonder about is whether a judgment for defamation is dischargeable in bk. Probably not.
I posted yesterday with a slightly different question but got some “you’re crazy” feedback – hoping for some more input today. I’m a young partner in a small firm. I make about 100k-110k/year before taxes. My clients are mostly firm clients. For personal reasons, I want to switch practice areas (to privacy) and also want to move from my state that has become politically opposite of me in the last several years. My small area doesn’t have much privacy work. I have a relevant degree and the CIPP, so I’m recruited. I’m considering taking a privacy associate position at a BigLaw firm. This will more than double my current income and get me to a new city (although cost of living is about 20% more). I know I’ll be giving up some freedom, have higher billable targets, and will need to take orders from partners again. Any other huge downsides? I don’t see me getting hired in state government anytime soon as most of my friends report politically-charged questions even in lower ranked roles.
What level associate? If you’re talking 7/8th year, ask specifically about the road to partnership in that practice group. I work in recruiting at a large (200+ attorney) regional firm. If you’re talking about coming in as a first or second year in order to change practice areas, I would proceed with major major caution.
why a firm? Lots of companies hire in-house privacy experts. Sometimes it’s JD-preferred rather than required, in case that affects your search. Unless you really want Biglaw $$$, company $$ would probably still be a raise.
Agreed, but it sounds like OP needs to learn the area. I think it’s a great idea to switch to a big firm and get that experience with an eye toward in-house.
FWIW, wanting more money and moving into a practice area that you’re more interested in doesn’t mean”you’re crazy.” As for going to BigLaw, you’ve certainly identified the trade offs from your current position. It’s secondhand, but a close friend of mine recently made the jump to BigLaw because she had specialized knowledge that made her an ideal fit for a specific practice area. They didn’t start her at the salary for 8+ year associate (even though that’s her experience level), but they also didn’t start her at first year associate pay. The hours are long, sure, but her biggest complaint to me hasn’t been the people she works with in her local office, it’s the bean counters at the HQ office that complain about a light billing month (because she was moving) on the heels of a month where she billed 220 hours. Second hand and one person’s experience, but there you go.
An in-house position would be great if you find one. You’d almost surely find one after a year or two of BigLaw experience.
Seems like a no-brained to me. Assuming you’re ok with the lifestyle adjustment (and I do expect it would be quite an adjustment) I’d definitely make the change.
So I was one of the people who told you that you were crazy yesterday and I will say that with the context, this is slightly less crazy. But only slightly.
Privacy is in such hot demand, and if you are looking to move geography, I feel that doing a year or two at a biglaw firm would not be a bad thing for you.
Be mindful that biglaw is extremely hierarchical and you will need to be very deferential to partners, and their relationships, despite your previous experience. Things you would not think twice about merely handling will need a “Fine to proceed with X” check-in to the relationship manager.
And because you are likely pretty senior, you need to act interested in partnership, even if going in-house is your eventual goal, so I cosign the advice above that you should act very interested in partnership to “play the game.”
Also, if you change geo and go to biglaw, you will be able to have them pay for your bar exam costs, and get paid bar leave, which is a win (although yucky to have to take the bar again).
If you go into this eyes wide open, it won’t be a bad change, and you will certainly make far more money.
I work in privacy in the financial field (practiced for over 15 years prior). I’d say it could be worth taking the Big Law job for a couple years to get that on your resume and then look into the non-firm sector. You seem aware of the down sides so you’re not going in blind! You may even end up liking it for other reasons. Go for it.
Hopefully fun question
About a week from now due to some scheduling issues I have a day to myself following a conference in a very nice hotel. I think I will mostly stick to the hotel room and get room service and read – what would you recommend reading that I can get through in a day that will keep me entertained and absorbed?
I loved Happy Hour by Marlowe Granados. Not terribly plot heavy but totally glamorous fun. Two twenty-somethings running around NYC in the summer but done in a completely refreshing way. Every sentence was like biting into a cold piece of fruit. Honestly can’t believe this book hasn’t gotten more attention
Maybe basic, but if you haven’t read any Sally Rooney, I absolutely devoured all three of her books.
On the mystery side I read One By One by Ruth Ware in one sitting. Very Agatha Christie vibes– a blizzard at a high end ski chalet and people start mysteriously disappearing.
Thank you! I’m intrigued by the Agatha Christie type book. I recently read The Christie Affair (a sort-of Agatha Christie type book based on Agatha Christie’s life) and was the kind of absorbed I hope to be on my glorious day to myself!
Here to sing Ruth Ware’s praises! I like to think of her, Sally Hepworth, Lisa Jewell, etc. as thrillers for scaredy-cats like myself. Excellent devour-in-one-sitting reading.
This board is excellent at book recommendations! What do you like, or have you liked in the past?
If you want something very lighthearted, I loved “Finlay Donovan Is Killing It” as a combined romance/mystery type book.
If you want something a little darker, I couldn’t put down “Twenty Years Later.” The content warnings on this is that it has some graphic descriptions of a murder and there are a couple of chapters about people who were present in the Towers on 9/11 if either of those issues would be a problem.
For a more literary book, I also loved “The Wife” by Meg Wolitzer. It’s just 250 pages so I think you could read it in a day.
I haven’t read it yet, but I heard about “Memphis” on a podcast today, and it sounds amazing and is also only 250 pages.
The Great Believers by Rebecca Makkai was my favorite read of my recent book-cation.
I loved this book. It is necessarily sad, as it takes place in the AIDS crisis. Makkai’s The Hundred Year House is a little lighter if you’re not feeling up to AIDS fiction right now.
It is sad at times, but didn’t feel bleak to me and it ends on a hopeful note. It was definitely less depressing than I expected, given the subject matter.
Again, I loved it! It’s many things other than sad, including funny at times. I personally find it helpful to read about massive-scale hardships during other massive-scale hardships. And I think it’s better than The Hundred Year House. Just throwing it out since not everyone shares my taste for heavy stuff, especially lately.
I love Rebecca Makkai. Great Believers is not light reading but it will stab you in the heart and then take up residence there. I think of it often.
The Seven Husbands of Evelyn Hugo by Taylor Jenkins Reed.
If you like science fiction at all, the Murderbot Diaries by Martha Wells is a series of fun novellas about a security construct (part cloned human tissue, part robot) who gains sentience. The writing is clean, sarcastic, funny, and surprisingly touching at parts.
+1!! Murderbot is amazing immersive scifi and made me cry at the same time.
I’ve been loving the Wrexford and Sloan mystery series – it’s well written and complex but not confusing plots, with Regency England setting. There are 5 books total which could fill a full day!
Threading fail but I posted a bunch of recs down below.
Read “come tell me how you live” by Christie herself
When December comes around, I want to feel like I’ve “done” things this year. I’ve accomplished something good at work and taken an art class, but that’s it. I want to sets some goals and make some plans for myself for the next six months but I’m out of ideas. Does anyone want to share the goals or things they’ve already done this year or things they’re planning for the rest of the year? I’m single and don’t have kids, if it matters. I also know that I don’t have to live to achieve goals, etc. but that’s what’s working best for me right now. Thanks for any ideas!
I have a lot of house goals for the year – finish our front landscaping (check!), clear out the patch of weeds we’ve let grow out of control in the backyard, clear out our garage, and organize a couple rooms in our house that have become junk pits. So far I’m making decent progress, although I maybe need to pick it up a little to have everything checked off by December! I would add travel to the list as well. We have one international trip and a handful of domestic trips between now and the end of the year that I’m really looking forward to. Not a “goal” per se but when I look back at each year most of my strongest and fondest memories are from trips. I also recently joined a book club and while the books being picked feel more….academic…than what I would pick for myself, it has been a good way for me to hit my reading goal for the year and meet new people.
I have lots of everyday goal/ daily habits that I try to achieve- mostly regarding reading, exercise, etc, but some year long goals , on my list:
-learn to juggle
– learn to play the concertina
– something to encourage a regular social gathering like start a book group or a supper club or some such. (I started a zoom book club during the pandemic, but once things started opening up it got harder to schedule)
– one new hike a month with the kids
– the 1000 hours outside challenge
– our county and state also has a bunch of mini challenges (ice cream tour, selfie stands at local parks) that I try to complete.
– cook my way through Midnight Chicken (which someone recommended here and is delightful and delicious)
I will be close to achieving fluency in French by end 2022
I’m the one moving to DC…thank you for all of your help so far, I really appreciate it!
My next question – Those of you in DC, do you own a car? Did you ever own a car there? Did you actually use it and feel like you needed it? I’m looking at living in the Downtown/Penn Quarter general area (I have a few apartment tours this weekend). I’d be walking/taking metro to work.I own a paid off car now and I’m trying to decide what to do with it. Paying $200+ a month for parking doesn’t excite me, but I’m worried about emergencies, especially after midnight when the metro closes. I’m not sure what the cab availability would be in the middle of the night if I needed one or my pets had to go to the animal ER.
What are your plan’s for getting groceries? Do you need a car to see family or friends? Can you afford the $200/month? Is your car paid off or are you paying on a loan?
I’ve lived in downtown DC and Philly for 7 years – some with a car and some without – and I’ve never used a car to get groceries or run other regular errands. Def easy to run errands without a car.
When I lived in DC, I used my car for groceries; at the time, local options were dismal and expensive.
There are a lot of grocery stories in downtown now, and the prices are the same as Arlington, that wasn’t true in all of DC 10 years ago
Definitely keep your car! Especially if it’s paid off. You may not use it much in the beginning when the city is new and exciting to you, but you will want to get out of the city and will be so grateful for it! Also, there are plenty of places in the city where transit isn’t practical and you’ll just want a car (NW, I’m looking at you). You can easily spend $200 on ubers and taxis. And gosh, when moving in in the beginning and you need bulky stuff, you will be SO grateful to have a car to run errands.
I lived in DC for two years without a car. I don’t think you need one and if the only reason you think you need one is a potential emergency, that’s a big money and mental energy sink that is probably not worth it. There are ways to get around if you ever really had an emergency off hours. Taxis are fine, uber, a friend, an actual ambulance. Unless you have some sort of condition where you anticipate frequently needing this type of service, get rid of the car.
Don’t bring a car. Plenty of Ubers and other transportation available such as metro. There is an ongoing issue of break ins – leave anything in the car and there will be a smashed window next morning.
I lived in Woodley Park for 2 years a few years ago without a car. It was easy to live there without a car, and I think if I had had one it would have only been used for going hiking, to the beach, or an occasional grocery store run. Caveat that Woodley has awful grocery store access (the only urban place I’ve ever lived without one in walking distance), so I had to metro to Van Ness or take the circulator to Columbia Heights for groceries. My roommate did have a car (she worked 45 min away in an area not metro accessible), so she’d occasionally drive us somewhere. But, overall – very easy to live in DC without a car.
If this influences your decision: metrorail runs until midnight but metrobuses run until 2 :)
I found it fine to live in DC without a car. Rideshare offers some alternatives to Metro/Bus. For any day trips or adventures you want, it’s easy to rent a car and cheaper on the whole. Get a Capital Bikeshare membership for increased freedom!
If I were living in the downtown / Penn Quarter area, I probably wouldn’t have a car. You can get a lot of places by metro, and Ubers / cabs are pretty accessible (also Uber has a separate option for pets). Depends on where you are, but you should be walking distance to the Safeway at 5th and L, and there’s always grocery delivery.
I lived in DC for years without a car and was completely fine (although, now that I don’t live by a metro and do have a car, I appreciate the flexibility of being able to go on day trips, etc).
Many hundreds a month for the possibility your pet might need to go to the emergency vet in the middle of the night wouldn’t be worth it for me, and I’m quite risk averse.
Yes, this is like the people who insist they need a giant SUV with 4wd as their daily driver because they to skiing once per year. Do not get a car for this possible occasional use scenario – there’s always Uber or Lyft, and yes, it will be available in the middle of the night.
Agree with the car comments and I would just… make sure you have spent time in Penn Quarter/ Downtown. I’ve lived in DC for 10 years and it’s not the neighborhood I would pick, especially if I then had to metro to work anyway. It’s pretty dead on the weekends except when it’s packed with tourists/ sports fans and doesn’t have character in the way other neighborhoods do.
This has changed a lot over the last few years. I know a ton of people who live in Penn Quarter/Chinatown and there are always a ton of people in that area, many who are locals
I would say this is true of north of downtown (M Street, Mount Vernon Triangle area). But I maintain that Penn Quarter has the worst of all worlds in hordes of crowds and not much else!
What neighborhood would you live in then?
It depends on where you’re commuting to, in part. If you want to be on the Orange/Blue Line I would go to CapHill/ Eastern Market, although there will be fewer managed buildings there and more one-off rentals.
If you want a quieter neighborhood on Red Line – mostly residential and families, less to do but more nature – I would look at Woodley Park (although it has the grocery limitations mentioned above) or Van Ness. If you want a neighborhood on the Red Line that’s more recently developed maybe NoMa – that will have more of luxury building feeling of downtown, but with local spots and more to do (Mount Vernon Triangle is similar). Same with Navy Yard, you’re looking for Green Line access. Dupont is great on the Red Line, too, although those buildings may be older.
If you want to live “in the center of things” the 14th Street Corridor is always active and relatively metro accessible if you’re okay with the bus.
Not knowing your commute I personally would pick Cap Hill or Dupont, but if you’re looking in Penn Quarter/Downtown that suggests a modern building/amenities may be a higher priority for you than me, so one of those other options might be better.
Unless you are out past midnight on a very frequent basis, it would be cheaper to take Ubers when needed than to pay for parking in your building. I lived in the city for four years before getting my parent’s old car, and only use it about 2 a month. I wouldn’t have purchased it or be willing to pay for parking at my home, but she gave it to me for free and I have a few parking spot.
Can you leave your car at a family members or friends house for 6 months to a year? See not to feel’s to live without one and if you miss it, and then if you decide you don’t need to, sell it.
I think it depends on your lifestyle. If I lived in DC, I would want a car occasionally to go out to the countryside, to go to Shenandoah, Great Falls Park, MT Vernon Trail, small towns (Middleburg!), etc. You could probably rent a car for the times you want to do that. I also enjoy driving as a stress relief.
Friends in DC do have cars but either have space provided in the building or street park (which seems like a huge hassle as they’re always having to move their car around or search for parking).
I don’t think you’d ever need a car to do anything in DC proper, including after hours
You need to keep your car.
Anyone have experience with taking a sabbatical? I’ve always wanted to take 6 months off from work to write my novel/just get an extended break from the daily grind. Vacations haven’t been enough. I’m just in the research phase so I know very little about it/if it would be worth it. I work as in-house counsel and am mid-level. I saw that my company policy is that you get paid 15% of gross yearly salary while on sabbatical – this sounds low! Is it the norm?
I think getting any money is fairly generous! Most corporate people I know who took a sabbatical did so unpaid. Academia is different, but sabbatical there is for research and writing related to your job, not or personal writing.
15% seems high to me because it would have been 0% and you lose your job at every company I ever worked for. If this is available to you, go for it!
That is very generous in my opinion! I have a couple of friends who took sabbaticals, and it was fantastic for their burnout (both ended up leaving the firms where they were during the sabbatical, so note that it won’t fix all problems). Both of theirs were unpaid.
I think that any amount of pay for a sabbatical where you’re not working (as in academia) is excellent. You’re not actually providing services for the company, so it makes sense that you don’t get your full salary. I’d take advantage of this in a heartbeat if I were you!
I’m in the US for context. Not sure if sabbatical pay is common in other areas.
I’m the OP with the question about how you’d spend 6 months off above, because I’m dreaming of the same thing. For me it would be unpaid and I’d possibly have to quit my job (I don’t have a concrete enough plan yet to talk to work). But if you are going to have a job to come back to and any amount of pay I’d say that’s super uncommon in the US and worth taking advantage of.
The norm is getting your request denied and having to decide whether to quit or not. If you are in-house, how would coverage for your role work? I would try to have an answer to that question to propose if you decide to broach the subject with your boss.
You’ll get better advice asking your colleagues who have actually taken a sabbatical how they made it work, if you can find any.
So per Bloomberg over 1/3 of Americans making over 250k/yr feel paycheck to paycheck and over half of millennials over 250k feel paycheck to paycheck. Is this true for you? Has it ever been true for you?
I’m not sure I really understand what living paycheck to paycheck means. I have no real savings except retirement savings that I’m obviously not going to touch, so I live paycheck to paycheck in the sense that I need this month’s paycheck to pay off last month’s credit card bills. But I have very substantial retirement savings, plus a fully paid off house worth over half a million so it’s not like I’m not saving.
Oh and our HHI is well under 250k, but still pretty high for our LCOL area.
I always took it to mean that a job loss would be a major cashflow problem because your expenses are so close to your take-home pay and you don’t have an emergency fund.
And, no, not since law school.
How are you living paycheck to paycheck if you have a house that is fully paid off and no mortgage? If your credit card bills are high enough that they eat up the majority of your take home pay, what happens if you have an unexpected bill or major expense?
Most of our spending is pretty discretionary. When we have an unexpected big bill we would cut back on fun spending for a couple months to cover it.
Living paycheck to paycheck is not choosing to spend a majority of your money on fun things instead of choosing to save or invest. Living paycheck to paycheck is having no choice but to spend a majority of your paycheck on necessities and debts and having nothing left over to the point where you could not meet all of the next months bills if you missed a paycheck.
So not paycheck to paycheck in the way that a family making 50k with 3 kids is. But I do feel like the “compulsion” to save – a hefty down payment; IRS max in retirement; saving another x% of salary on top of that retirement savings – does make things feel tight. But realistically I know they’re not. It would not be an issue for me to skip saving for a month or a few months to go spend spend spend or travel or whatever, but just can’t make myself do that right now. Age 40, 210k, HCOL northeastern metro area.
We haven’t been paycheck to paycheck since we were in our 20s – I think our HH income was probably just over $100k when we got to the point where we had a decent savings cushion for emergencies. (We’re in our 40s now, and neither of us make over 250k but our HH income is over that, fwiw.)
This is a problem with people being content. Our total household income is low $300k and I never feel paycheck to paycheck. We have a toddler with no family help so significant child care costs and live in a middle/high cost of living area. We bought the smallest house in a nice neighborhood and save approximately $125k a year, plus max out 401k. We don’t take expensive vacations (typically drive to see family that we stay with) and I don’t buy expensive clothing, cars or items. I learned things do not make me happy, experiences do. So we spend our weekends at the pool, local zoo or beach and we have a weekly maid service to ensure our weekends are free to spend time together. If anything we feel very fortunate to not worry about bills and expenses, but I have never been a spender. My husband is a spender, but we agreed early on in marriage for him to have a monthly allowance. It works for us.
You make over 300k – no wonder you’re content. I don’t see how someone with 125k in savings per year + weekly maid service gets to lecture anyone else regarding contentment.
Yeah you’re insanely wealthy and have everything most people would want. Of course you’re happy. (And fwiw I make a good salary and am pretty happy too. But I don’t think you’re in a position to preach about not needing money to be happy.)
This was in response to the study that showed that people who make in the range are still living paycheck to paycheck. I’m not saying you don’t need money to make you happy – but I will absolutely argue the point that after a certain point (being able to pay your bills and have some savings) the extra money brings zero additional happiness. It is for this reason I have been looking for a lower stress job even though it will be lower paying. I see with my neighbors who are driving brand new luxury vehicles and have a house twice or three times the size of ours that they are financially strapped and stressed out about money. They aren’t content with the wonderful things they have in their life and they want the newest car, the biggest house, the luxury clothes, ect. It is keeping up with the Jones. It is crazy to me how people making so much, are willing to spend so much and be paycheck to paycheck.
They’re not lecturing anyone regarding contentment in life – they’re advocating for being content with what you can afford instead of always needing the biggest and best. I’ve worked with quite a few people who have this need to drive the fanciest car, have the biggest house, take the most luxurious vacations, etc. Despite making 6 figures, they’re up to their eyeballs in debt with little savings.
It’s an unsustainable lifestyle. Lifestyle creep is a real problem.
how useful is this statistic? How many people make over $250k? How many millennials? Most people make less than that, I would guess even on this site.
We make $212k HHI per year in a MCOL area. We have not been living “paycheck to paycheck” for many years, going back to when we were making much less money than we do now.
I know we’ve had this discussion here before many times, but “living paycheck to paycheck” is largely a function of how expenses are managed, not how much income you bring in. No matter how much money we make, if we were inclined to spend it all and then some, we could. I get anxious about money and I would rather have peace of mind than a new car every three years that I’m worried about making the payment on. I want a few things that I don’t have (one of those BMW Z4s would be nice), but what I do have is the peace of mind that if one of us loses our jobs, we will not be in any kind of real financial trouble for many months, because we keep our expenses contained. Different people have different priorities and make different choices, and that’s fine. But those are choices, and not conditions. I do acknowledge that the middle class is shrinking and it is getting tougher to really “make it” on a middle-class income, but my first question to folks making over $250k, who are not living in a VHCOL area like San Francisco or NYC, and who feel like they’re living “paycheck to paycheck” is – what are you doing with your money? And what are you willing to change to have more breathing room and put more in savings every month?
Even in the highest cost of living areas, truly living paycheck to paycheck should not be happening at $250k. You certainly can’t have everything you want at that income level in SF or NYC, but the median income for those areas is far less than $250k, and ANYONE at that income level is not living in poverty, period.
That said, I do think there are more people than some of us realize who are over-leveraged and who are spending every cent they bring in every month (not saving and “feeling” strapped, but actually spending), including people who make $250k+.
I think people don’t understand that acquiring property is very difficult at a reasonable cost in the Bay Area right now, and rent is insane if you have a family and need a house, not just a 1-BR.
In the Bay Area, if you have two car payments, student loans, kids, day care costs and real estate big enough to fit your family within a reasonable commuting distance to SF/Peninsula/Oakland including very high property taxes, and typical family expenses, it would be easy to live “paycheck to paycheck” on 250K.
Again, this is not the same as someone “making it work” on $75K, but I can definitely imagine how this would be very tight.
I’m single in SF, and until I paid off my (very high) student loans, paying rent, car payment and doggy daycare expenses was tight on a junior biglaw salary. You can say I was overspending, but I was also working 80 hour weeks and was willing to pay higher rent to be closer to work.
I think that’s exactly what the previous Anon meant by you can’t have it all at the same time/people being overleveraged. Sure car payments, childcare, student loans and rent/mortgage are big ticket items, but there is a level of choice involved when you have all of these at the same time(except maybe for the kids, which you can’t delay indefinitely). Even in SF, rent and utilities should get you something decent under $50k/year.
I’m the Anon above, and this is exactly what I meant!
Barring some sort of medical event or very unusual circumstance, a person living paycheck to paycheck in the sense that they are spending everything they earn and not saving anything is a choice at high income levels, no matter where you are. Even if the person feels squeezed and like they are “just getting by.”
I think that’s why there’s not much sympathy for such a position, and that’s why it really really bothers me when high earners claim to be poor or put upon like they can’t do anything to get ahead financially.
Above a certain threshold, living paycheck to paycheck is about managing expenses. Below that, it’s about not having enough money, period.
People who earn $250k a year can figure out a way to spend it all: they do ALL the things, not just some of the things. You can’t have the big house, the European vacations, the new kitchen reno, two fancy cars, and kids in private school on $250k a year – not if you want to retire. Sensible families pick one or two things from that list.
If this is true it makes me sick how greedy some people are.
Did they define what paycheck to paycheck meant? I know so many people with HHI of over $200k that claim they live paycheck to paycheck because once they met all their savings goals, they spend the rest. But to me, paycheck to paycheck means that you aren’t able to save any money because you need every penny to pay your basic needs.
In my mind, I haven’t lived paycheck to paycheck since I started at biglaw making $160k. I was able to pay my student loans, pay for an apartment and other needs, and have enough left over to go out with friends and buy whatever I wanted at the grocery store.
Yeah, I would say I live paycheck to paycheck because we spend pretty much all our money after maxing out our retirement accounts. But we would be ok in an emergency.
I was more or less paycheck to paycheck for a year and change after my divorce, because the cash I left with all went to renting an apartment (first month, security deposit, broker fee). I tried to keep a cushion of about a month’s rent, because I figured that between that and a credit card that would buy me some time in case of emergency to figure stuff out, but it really felt like paycheck to paycheck. I was making less than 6 figures at the time and shared custody of a small child, and I live in NYC. It took about a year and change to get my life settled enough to be able to save cash (I continued my retirement and 529 contributions throughout). Around then I got a raise and between the small bit of savings and the extra breathing room in my monthly budget, I felt such a lightness… it’s hard to even explain how amazing it was. I honestly have a hard time imagining how someone could live paycheck to paycheck on 250k, even in NYC, unless they are really not even trying to save.
Our HHI is about $115k, MCOL area, and we have not been paycheck-to-paycheck since just out of college 20 years ago. I considered us to be paycheck to paycheck when our income was so low that we would have been in dire straights if we were to miss a paycheck or have an unbudgeted expense hit unexpectedly. A job loss would have been catastrophic. Back at that point, our HHI was under $30k and it was all we could to make rent, cover utilities, transportation & groceries. There was no room for unnecessary or frivolous spending much less stuff like saving for retirement, going on vacation, or even eating out.
I honestly think if someone says they “feel” like they are living paycheck to paycheck at $250k, they either have extraordinarily bad luck (like massive medical bills that consume most of that income, or something similar) or they have a complete and utter lack of awareness about what poverty living really entails.
The lack of awareness of what poverty actually entails is so true. I know so many people who make over $100k in their late 20s who complain they are poor because they can’t have everything they want. Unless you were Jeff Bezos, life involves trade offs. That doesn’t make you poor or mean you are living paycheck to paycheck
I’m the poster you responded to, and I agree. Even at our lowest point, I knew we were still incredibly privileged compared to so many others. For instance, while we could not afford cable TV, at the same time we never had to choose which utility was going to stay on in any given month. We did consolidate car trips because gas money was precious, but we never went without groceries in order to afford the drive to work. So many others do face those dilemmas.
I would say we stopped being paycheck-to-paycheck about 17 years ago, when we were making about $40k and had a kid. We managed to buy a house in our MCOL area, things were very tight, but we had enough wiggle room that we were able to start saving enough that we would be able to make the mortgage payment even if we had car trouble that month. We slowly got into better and better paying jobs and eventually earned promotions that allowed us to save more, start contributing to retirement accounts, taking occasional vacations, etc. It was uncomfortable at points and we lived very frugally for a long time, but not paycheck to paycheck. Perhaps when we hit $75k HHI a few years ago I would say we finally felt like we had breathing room in our budget and could splurge a little. Losing a job would be no fun, but we have a good amount of cushion now and would come out fine on the other side.
Oh please. Paycheck to paycheck means barely enough to pay bills today, not “I don’t have anything left over after fulling funding a 401K, a 529 for the kids, and after paying for private school, a gym membership, botox, and a car/house I can barely afford.” Having *actually* lived paycheck to paycheck in my early 20’s, where you choose each month which utility bill to pay and go to a food bank from time to time, I have so little tolerance for people in a 5% income bracket whining about expenses related to completely discretionary lifestyle choices.
Nope. I make over 250k but am married, so it’s not just my pay we live on.
That said, I live outside the US….paying less than half your tax rate, so…..
I don’t think people who have never lived paycheck to paycheck know what that means.
An org I’m involved with is having a Titanic-themed party. Is this totally cringey to anyone else? I mean, a bunch of people died…
I also hate this. They could have accomplished the same goal with a themed party of the time period.
Yea this is a terrible idea.
Gilded age cruise would create the same idea without the associated tragedy. Weird. Kind of like a Pompeii-themed party instead of a Roman party.
I would prefer Pompeii to regular Roman, and think concept.
For Titanic, you could come in a life vest, as a polar bear or a symbol of melting ice caps, if you don’t want a pretty costume. Or a newspaper boy, photographer, or mechanic.
It’s not more cringey than most Halloween costumes….
I think it’s a lot more cringey than most Halloween costumes. When was the last time your Halloween costume related to an event that involved mass death? Would you have a 9/11 party? The boat is only famous because it sank and 1,500 people died. It’s not like there’s a Titanic theme that’s separate from the tragedy.
Major cringe
Yeah, it’s poor taste. I get that the aesthetics throughout the movie, leading up to the boat sinking, were lovely, but if that’s what you like, a Downton Abbey themed party would be just as pretty but much more tasteful.
Go as a zombie.
Life vest, gel wet hair. carry a dead baby doll.
I don’t think OP is looking for ideas. I think her point is that it is in bad taste to have an event where people are encouraged to make light of 1500 people dying.
I think if that genuinely was the first thing people thought when hearing Titanic, that would be true. But it’s not. Bad taste or lacking historical awareness, whichever, genuinely, when a lot of people think Titanic what they are remembering or referencing is the movie. Which means that for a lot of people (whatever value judgement you want to bring) they are thinking “romantic”.
It’s not a realistic way to portray the historical events of the Titanic, sure. But I’d rather people have Titanic parties than “Gone with the wind” parties.
I mean, the suggested costumes all involve dead people, so I think the main thing people think about is “fancy boat that sank.”
I agree that Gone With The Wind parties are worse, but I get feeling squicked out by the concept here.
The people died in the movie too! Would you have a Schindler’s List party or a Saving Private Ryan movie? I don’t understand why the fact that there was a movie about this makes it ok.
“Would you have a Schindler’s List party or a Saving Private Ryan movie?”
No. As far as I know, nobody would classify those movies as “romantic”. I’ll admit that I’ve seen neither, so I’ll go on the general impression.
My point is not that Titanic is a great choice for a themed night, but that’s it’s a lot more understandable and accessible than a lot of other events (made into movies) that are objectively about a tragedy or extreme political situation. I’m comfortable saying I’d rather people dress up for a romanticized accident than a genocide.
There wasn’t a focus on romance in those movies but they dramatized and humanized those historical events in the same way the Titanic movie did.
Most things are better than genocide. I don’t think the fact that this is better than a Holocaust party (low bar) makes it remotely ok.
So my husband handed me his phone to send some photos to myself from our recent vacation, which I mention because I was NOT snooping. Without scrolling I could see several x-rated photos saved, screenshots from p*rn, fans only, and instagram thirst traps. I kind of have mixed feelings and was wondering what your take would be? The p*rn doesn’t really bother me, although I wish he was more discreet about it. The Fans Only strikes me as somehow different, because you have to pay for that. On the one hand, he’s an adult and is free to spend reasonable amounts of our shared $ at his discretion, without my permission, as am I. On the other hand it kind of skeeves me out for reasons I can’t articulate well. Like it’s more personal? The instagram photos really bothered me because because it’s someone we know in real life (loosely). I think overall I’d just appreciate more discretion on his end- knowing he consumes this material and seeing it for myself feel very different. I also asked him to unfollow the person we know in real life and explained why. Any thoughts?
Ugh I’m so sorry. I would feel pretty much the same way you do about each of those. Internet p0rn is fine but he should be more discreet. Paying for it is weird to me because it feels more interactive somehow. Having bikini photos of someone we know would not be ok.
I mean, people do it, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t creepy and gross. I think saving the pics makes it grosser.
I would feel cheated on by the OF content. As I understand it, that’s a one-on-one experience with a cam girl and that would definitely cross a line for me. And he is saving thirst trap screen shots from people you know? That means he is pleasur1ing himself to them – you know that, right? Ick all the way around.
I’m sorry this happened to you.
No, OF is more than cam girls. There’s photo content you can pay for and download. It feels different to me than just watching free p0rn but it doesn’t necessarily mean cam girl.
Your understanding is factually incorrect.
It’s not though. OnlyFans can be SUPER SUPER interactive. That’s the point of it and why it’s different than porn.
Can be, but isn’t necessarily.
Yes, but if that is a common usage, it’s not factually incorrect to note it as such. Paying a woman directly for naked photos of herself in any case would be something I’d call interactive and would be a dealbreaker for me.
Oh I’m not saying OP shouldn’t be upset. I would be really upset too. But I’m responding to the poster who said of Only Fans “as I understand it, that’s a one-on-one experience with a cam girl” and that’s not accurate in my opinion. He may have used cam girls but I don’t think that’s clear from what OP found on his phone.
It’s also their SHARED money that he’s spending on photos of other naked women. I’d flip out.
Your feelings are totally valid!! Honestly, this would DESTROY me, as someone who has a lot of boundaries around this type of thing.
I would count Only Fans as cheating in my relationship. The women can talk to the men, it can be interactive, the women even have “wishlists” of things that the men can buy them as presents. The idea of my husband or boyfriend paying one-on-one for naked photos of women is so skeevy to me and feels like a huge line. If you haven’t communicated this as a boundary already, I think it is totally fair to do so.
I feel the same way about the thirst traps – would definitely count as a boundary violation to me. It’s a person you know. There are so many other resources for porn out there. Choosing these other modes I feel like would indicate to me not being aware of how some things feel boundary crossing.
I think setting firm boundaries here is definitely in order and see how he responds. He shouldn’t want to do anything that makes you uncomfortable.
I feel like we had a big discussion about this topic just recently.
I was the poster who wrote about something similar a couple of months ago. I found a single saved bikini photo from someone he knew in real life on my bf’s phone and almost broke up with him over it.
Ahh! I hope you are doing ok!!
Haha, the hive told me I was overreacting and I realized I probably was! I just feel for OP – this kind of thing can be stressful!!
I think this is really personal, and only you can decide what you are willing to accept. For me, I would look the other way on the p rn and the only fans, but I would flip out if he was saving IG photos of someone from real life. I don’t have any articulated logic, it’s just how I feel about it. There’s no right or wrong answer.
I agree with this. Now, if the p rn or only fans included DM’s with the “artist”, game over.
Posted above, but I also wonder if a dialogue about his relationship to these things is in order. Porn addiction is a real thing, and can have a pretty significant impact on relationships. If he’s needing OnlyFans and Instagram photos in addition to porn, it definitely sounds like there is a lot of charge driving this. Does he have a really high sex drive in general? Is this a new thing? How much time / energy does this take up for him?
I’d try to have a conversation both about your boundaries around it and, also, trying to better understand what’s going on for him. I personally would be absolutely disgusted by this and probably pretty unnerved about my husband being so driven to do these kinds of things. My phone is full of screenshots of cute recipes and workouts and family – I’d want a partner with similar interests and not having random girls on the internet taking up so much of his headspace.
I think the good news is that he just handed you his phone. He’s gotta know what’s on there and it wouldn’t suggest to me that there’s some secret thing going on. I’m pretty fine with whatever someone wants to use to self garden, so I wouldn’t see this as a big deal.
Eh another possibility is that he wants out of the marriage and wanted OP to see it because she knew he’d be upset. It doesn’t sound like she’s ok with the material she found (even if you would be) and I suspect he knows that. Most long-married couples have a sense of their partners boundaries in this regard.
Could he have been testing her boundaries, knowing she’ll see those pictures?
I think it’s more likely he just didn’t think it was weird and is entirely clueless about it. I personally would take it as an indication they’ve never set boundaries around this and that there’s a good chance he’s willing to reel it in if he knows she’s uncomfortable.
OP here, wanted to add that he was SUPER embarrassed, I do not think it was intentional. It was a few weeks ago now and he keeps bringing it up to say how embarrassed and dirty he feels about it. He does have a high drive that isn’t sustainable for me at the moment while I’m dealing with a difficult pregnancy. We did have a long conversation about it and I feel things are resolved. He says he had already unsubbed from OF because it’s a waste of money and it was an impulse purchase before- I haven’t checked but I don’t think he’d lie about it. I think it was a good reality check for him that he had gone a little overboard.
Just want to say your feelings are totally valid and you are totally in the right to set whatever boundaries feel right to you. I’d add, if you are having a difficult pregnancy, the focus should also be entirely on you and what you need to feel safe/secure/happy etc. Please feel empowered to ask for whatever you need from him. Sending you lots of love.
I think I basically agree with your main thoughts:
1) porn is a thing and that’s fine!
2) looking at IG pictures of people you know in a setting that might be titilating/arousing is not okay, not fine.
3) FO has a range and it could be “fine!” or “not fine!” depending, but not inherently bad.
I agree 100% that number 2 is a no go, and it seems that hubby agrees.
I agree 1000% that number 1 is fine, and why wouldn’t hubby agree?
So number 3.
I think that on-demand porn or titillation is fine, as long as it’s a service. I think OF can be fine. I think that having some “niche” needs met – if primary partner is reluctant or squicked – is fine. I don’t think that’s cheating. I don’t think that’s wrong. I don’t think that’s a DMFA at all.
Consent is important, though. So to OP, this is not a red flag. Maybe not even orange. But not green – communication, For you, as a couple, talk about where you’re comfortable, where you disagree, how you want to meet each other. None of this is clear-cut. You two get to decide.
I think that the conversation about why “perving” on somebody you know is different to porn is the most important conversation, and it seem like you’ve already done that.
So many are trying to rewrite language so that they don’t have to address their own abuse past (whether as survivor or aggressor), but being hit in a relationship -even once- IS abuse. You don’t get to redefine the word so you can feel better about yourself and pretend not to know this isn’t what you’re doing and that doing this doesn’t hurt women.
So many are posting that they think Amber hit back so she’s entitled to nothing, while not recognizing the age, finances, and status dynamics at play. JD is known in the entertainment community in LA for being a horrible person. His work ethic is known for being terrible, which he doesn’t deny. Juries are known for having their own biases. Abuse is known for being nearly impossible to prove.
Why are so many denying the impact this trial will have on women? The GOP twitter and so many anti-women politicians are promoting and celebrating JD.
Also, for those who think they can say whatever because Amber won’t see it, ya know who does see it? Your friends, relatives, and neighbors who have been victims. People in your life who are trying like hell to get out of abusive relationships. Women have it hard enough in this country without other women tearing them down and undermining the reality of DV.
I think it says a lot that a judge only trial in the UK and a jury trial in the US met two different results.
And how was his reputation damaged? He’s been known as a drugged out drunken gross mess for years? Such a loser.
Amen. This has honestly been heartbreaking to watch. There was a really great piece in the NYer about how chilling it is this morning.
Cognitive dissonance
Thrillers are what get me absorbed all day.
Dark Matter or Recursion by Blake Crouch are both very great sci-fi thrillers.
The Cormoran Strike series by JK Rowling using a pseudonym are great private detective mysteries.
I agree with the Seven Husbands recommendation for more of a romance.
A Deadly Education is a great fantasy novel as is The Fifth Season is another great.
Recursion was great.
I’m sure this vent has been addressed so many times on here, but I feel like I’m the only one left who actually needs to wear office clothes! I work in DC for a large federal agency. Outside of a deposition or court, the office is like, one step below a suit. The only thing the pandemic has changed is fewer men wear ties now. I had previously viewed this as business casual but apparently I was wrong, because apparently business casual now means nap dresses and maxi skirts. Who outside of those who work for magazines can wear a nap dress to work?? Even if it was appropriate, are the offices not air conditioned????? Anyways I’m mostly just venting. I knew my rough size at Ann Taylor/Loft and live across the street from them so returns were super easy. I know there are options out there, even if I have to expand beyond Ann Taylor/Loft (now that everything they sell either has a ruffle or is like, periwinkle blue or bright yellow–I have a light olive skin tone so uh lol at that), but I really dislike shopping and I hate even more returning items I’ve bought online. And I lost some weight during the pandemic that I anticipate gaining back, if not from life resuming then because my husband and I are going to start trying soon. So since Ann Taylor and Loft have decided we no longer work anymore, I’m going to have to spend more money than I had anticipated on a wardrobe I will only wear for at most a year :(.
(I tried to purchase just some black stretchy pants off of Amazon and some skirts, the skirts were like crepe paper, and the pants are falling apart at the seams after washing them twice. I’m still wearing them though out of desperation, in fact I’m wearing them today…)
What shape are you? If you are short waisted and not curvy, Lands End has some appropriate pieces.
Hate to tell you Lady Mary but times have changed. Nordstrom still sells business clothes though. Just go get some theory and be done with it.
I’m in a similar boat and have had a good experience buying Ann Taylor suiting/dresses/blazers from past seasons in my tried and true sizing on Poshmark.
really nice