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Our daily workwear reports suggest one piece of work-appropriate attire in a range of prices. Black Halo has been a favorite for years, and this dress in “cadmium” is so unusual but so lovely. I like the seaming and the sleeves, and it also has a hidden back zip. It's such a happy, bright, yellowy-orange dress for work, so if you're looking for a statement piece, do check out this one. Shopbop has it in several colors for $345, as does Amazon; everyone (including Saks) has it in a dark blue/navy. Jodee Sheath Dress Two more affordable dresses are here and here (the latter goes up to size 18); here is a plus-size option. This post contains affiliate links and Corporette® may earn commissions for purchases made through links in this post. For more details see here. Thank you so much for your support! 2019 Update: We're adding this dress to our Workwear Hall of Fame because it's still around, coming out in new colors and prints, and getting rave reviews. Seen a great piece you’d like to recommend? Please e-mail tps@corporette.com.Sales of note for 11.5.24
- Nordstrom – Fall sale, up to 50% off!
- Ann Taylor – Extra 40% off sale
- Banana Republic Factory – 50% off everything + extra 25% off with your GAP Inc. credit card
- Bloomingdales is offering gift cards ($20-$1200) when you spend between $100-$4000+. The promotion ends 11/10, and the gift cards expire 12/24.
- Boden – 10% off new styles with code; free shipping over $75
- Eloquii – Fall clearance event, up to 85% off
- J.Crew – 40% off fall favorites; prices as marked
- J.Crew Factory – Up to 60% off everything + 60% off clearance
- Lo & Sons – Fall Sale, up to 35% off
- M.M.LaFleur – Save 25% sitewide
- Neiman Marcus – New sale, up to 50% off
- Spanx – Lots of workwear on sale, some up to 70% off
- Talbots – Buy one, get one – 50% off everything!
- White House Black Market – Holiday style event, take 25% off your entire purchase
And some of our latest threadjacks here at Corporette (reader questions and commentary) — see more here!
Some of our latest threadjacks include:
- What to say to friends and family who threaten to not vote?
- What boots do you expect to wear this fall and winter?
- What beauty treatments do you do on a regular basis to look polished?
- Can I skip the annual family event my workplace holds, even if I'm a manager?
- What small steps can I take today to get myself a little more “together” and not feel so frazzled all of the time?
- The oldest daughter is America's social safety net — change my mind…
- What have you lost your taste for as you've aged?
- Tell me about your favorite adventure travels…
Pompom
I have this similar dress in ivory, but it also comes in a bright yellow (this photo is duller than IRL, and this is just so you can see): https://www.amazon.com/Ellen-Tracy-Womens-Petite-Sleeved/dp/B019QWX7C0/ref=sr_1_4?s=apparel&ie=UTF8&qid=1500986513&sr=1-4&nodeID=1045024&psd=1&refinements=p_4%3AEllen+Tracy%2Cp_n_size_browse-vebin%3A2343364011
More affordable and sleeves!
Pompom
In mod, but I linked to a similar, less expensive sleeved yellow work dress. The link is to Amazon in a lucky size, but just an FYI that there is something qu i t e similar out there…with sleeves! Ellen Tracy
Indeed
Love having options. Thanks for posting.
Anon
Are there any vegan ‘rettes? I stopped eating meat a couple months ago and I want to cut out animal products entirely. What should I know about making the switch? Any advice for someone with no cooking skills and little freetime, and a major sweet tooth? How did your family/friends react? (I feel like my dad and brother in particular will make fun of me or feel offended somehow).
Anon for this response
While I’m not vegan, a very dear friend recently went that way, with a similar no cooking, no free-time situation. It has been incredibly challenging for her, and resulted in less than excellent health. It has also been a strain on her friendships, but that is a result of how she’s handling it, not the actual being vegan – watching her eat poorly (like a pile of fries for dinner because she’s picky and won’t even try anything on a menu, even in a vegan-friendly restaurant) or her consistently eating before a group of girls gets together for dinner, so she’s watching everyone eat while sipping a glass of water, or getting light-headed during a workout because she doesn’t eat protein.
My best is advice is doing what she finally did – meet with a nutritionist who specializes in working with vegans (hers is a practicing vegan) to understanding the nutritional needs and get lots of suggestions on meals and recipes.
As far as reaction, nobody has really judged the decision – if you aren’t trying to convert others, it isn’t a big deal.
Anon
Why do you care if your friend eats fries for dinner? Fries are delicious. Also, why do you care if she’s not eating during a meal? Despite what you say here, it sounds like you are (or were) judging your friend.
Anon for this response
I care that she isn’t healthy, because I care about her – healthy isn’t a judgement, it was a determination by her doctor who is very concerned.
Perhaps it shouldn’t bother me that she sits and watches people eat, but for me personally it is uncomfortable.
anon
Because she’s acting like she has an eating disorder. She probably barfs up the fries or eats n0thing all day to make up for it. If you go out of your way to find restaurants with vegan options and she still doesn’t eat that’s a low grade annoyance that would wear on a friendship over time. Lots of cultures revolve around socializing while eating. It’s what we do.
Liquid Crystal
Agreed. Eating together is a basic part of normal social interaction. When someone chooses to restrict her diet, she removes herself from normal social settings. I don’t care what or if someone chooses to eat or restrict her diet, but it would be short sighted to think that her choice to do so affects only her and not the rest of the group. In my social group, there is one member who is always avoiding something- sometimes it’s dairy, sometimes it’s gluten, sometimes it is fruit, and, as a result, it has become awkward to have her over for dinner or go out to normal restaurants with her, and the group dynamic has therefore changed. I should clarify that it isn’t so much her choice to restrict her diet that has this impact as much as it is her choice to be vocal and share every little update about her dietary preferences (which vary by the week) with the whole group.
Blonde Lawyer
I’m not vegan but I cannot have dairy. Daiya has awesome vegan foods. I love their pizza and they have great cheesecake!
Anon
Vegan cheesecake exists? You just made my day!! I will definitely check them out.
Senior Attorney
I did low-fat vegan for a while and loved it. Check out http://www.drmcdougall.com – they explain their program and have recipes and helpful message boards.
Anonymous
In light of your described habits….. I worry you will gain a lot of weight!!!
You can be a very happy carb eating, sweets eating vegan. But to be healthy, eating an interesting mix of foods, it requires a bit of planning and preparation. There are many many healthy vegan meals, but my friends that are successful enjoy cooking and shop smart and spend time to make them.
You must must must consider nutritional balance and take B12 supplements at a minimum. I have two vegan friends that became severely B12 deficient and developed very serious neurologic/psychiatric complications of B12 deficiency, one that affected the newborn baby she was nursing as well. Don’t let this be you.
If you are considering this switch, I would suggest talking it over with your PCP so they can review some basic nutritional issues and consider talking with a nutritionist to be sure you don’t become deficient. And you need to do more reading and thinking. I’m sure others on this site will give you online references. But definitely talk with your doctor. You may need to check your iron levels, B12, Vitamin D etc.. over time.
Anonymous
I know a very chunky vegan . . . b/c Fritos are vegan. Pls don’t be that vegan.
Super-anon wife
Co-sign to all of this. Ex-H is a strict vegan, our household was mostly vegan and DS went from lifetime vegetarian to fully vegan in college. It’s easier if you are in a big city (or a vegan-friendly college town, maybe) but it’s definitely doable. And, yes, you need to watch iron, B-12 and D carefully and will definitely need to supplement the B-12.
It’s easy to junk it up – I joke that my son did fine as a vegan college student because Oreos and beer are vegan – but it’s not that hard to eat healthy. It’s super-easy to cook lentils, for example (try black lentils, available at Whole Foods, my favorite), or to make a pot of beans to last several days – serve over rice, on top of a salad, in a burrito or taco for different meals. I like to do them in the crockpot; look for Mark Bittmann’s recipe/method for slow-cooker beans.
And there are some decent vegan frozen options if you really don’t want to cook. Trader Joe’s has some – the Japanese fried rice is the bomb, although I usually add some of their teriyaki tofu to it for extra protein – as do both Amy’s Organic and Sweet Earth. I’ve seen the best selection and prices on those two brands in the grocery section of Target, of all places.
If you do want to cook, check out the Post Punk Kitchen and this blog: http://kblog.lunchboxbunch.com/
Good luck!
Solo
I am vegan. I grew up vegetarian, dabbled in poultry and fish in college, hated it, and went full vegan in 2010. It’s about both ethics and health for me. I try not to preach, but I love talking when people have questions. I take B12 but no other supplements. I am not a huge cook but I have a few go to recipes, and like to explore others on weekends. There are so many blogs and books out there. I eat TONS of veggies and legumes but also dark chocolate and coconut milk ice cream.
I will say this. Learn more about factory farming (including dairy farming) and the ethics behind food. The vegans I know who don’t care about the animals don’t stick with veganism. Good luck!
Anon
The reason I want to go vegan (and why I became vegetarian a couple months ago) is because I finally confronted my cognitive dissonance about loving animals and eating meat, and educated myself and watched a documentary about how animals are treated not just in the meat industry but in the dairy, eggs, wool etc industries. I am making this change due to ethical concerns (though I am aware there are health benefits and I definitely want to reduce my environmental footprint). Honestly I never thought I would be “that person” (I used to really really love meat, rave about charcuterie and cheese, I am from France so it is a very big part of our culture) but I can’t unknow what I know about how the animals are treated.
Sarabeth
We are vegetarian, not fully vegan, but trying to move in that direction. I use the Fresh 20 meal planning service, and the vegetarian option is reasonably vegan-friendly. Usually, the diary in the recipes is optional. I do skim the week’s recipes before I go shopping to make sure that they are adaptable; on the rare week that they aren’t, I use the site’s archives to find a set that is. They are all vetted by a nutritionist, so it takes the pressure off of me to make sure that I’m hitting my nutrient goals. They are also reasonably simple, although you do need to know how to (for example) dice vegetables. I take iron, vitamin D, and vitamin B complex supplements.
givemyregards
How do you like the Fresh 20 meal planning service? I used to use a vegan meal planning site that was easy to convert to vegetarian (which I am) that I loved, but they stopped offering the service and I’m on the hunt for a replacement.
Sarabeth
I like it! It’s not perfect – there are occasional misses, and the format tends to mean that each week has a specific flavor profile, because they are trying to simplify the weekly shopping list. For example, rather than buying 2 different “special” ingredients for each meal, this week relies heavily on mint, apricots, and feta (we have subbed feta with olives to veganize it). Most of the meals have at least two of those ingredients in them, so they kind of feel like variations on a theme. I’m ok with that, though, because the “theme” switches each week, and also they all taste good.
If I had all the time in the world, I would enjoy doing my own meal planning, and I’d probably like the results about 20% more than I like the Fresh 20 meals. But I don’t live in that world; in reality, I eat vastly more interesting and healthy food following the Fresh 20 recipes than I would if I were trying to do it all myself, and it also takes much less time. I do make some systematic changes – the meals tend to be lower fat than I think is necessary for our family, so I often add oil back in to salad dressings, for example. Sometimes there are more beans than I want to eat, so I cut back on those.
givemyregards
Thank you for this thoughtful response! We’re about to move in September, but once I have a kitchen back in working order I think I’ll give it a shot.
Amy H.
Try Purple Carrot!
Anon
ME ME ME! Some tricks I use are whole wheat toast and pb with a fruit (usually a banana for me) is a great well balanced breakfast, but also oatmeal, tofu scramble, avocado toast, hash browns, or a breakfast burrito with aforementioned tofu and hash browns and avocado and salsa. Work lunches are usually crunchy veggies like carrots, green beans and cucumber with hummus, sometimes I will make that into a wrap or use the hummus to make a salad dressing with lettuce and beans and veggies. Dinner is always varied but a really fast dinner is lentils, gnocchi, broccoli and marinara, its my go to 5 minute dinner. I also make quesadillas with canned refried beans (without lard) as the “glue” and then whatever vegetables I feel like topped with salsa and avocado. I also LOVE Indian food and making soup with good crusty bread. I really like to cook, but I don’t have time so this is the balance I strike between eating real food and getting food on the table in 20 minutes or less. Take a B12, the thing with B12 is it’s actually from dirt, but our sterilized society has basically eliminated it from natural sources. Meat eater’s only get B12 because their meat is supplemented, it isn’t found naturally in meat. Don’t let someone make you feel like a supplemented diet isn’t healthy or “normal” because theirs is supplemented too and they just don’t know it.
The social aspect will suck, people will make fun of you and some will even try to poison your food. As a reason “why” I find “It’s important to me” is a good stock answer, I used to say “I love animals” but it really sets people off because they think they can both love and kill animals. People will also do that “but what about protein” seemingly ignoring the fact that basically all plants have protein and you know…lentils…beans…tofu…seitan…nuts. Just try to keep your cool about it, the average person doesn’t know anything about nutrition. On the ethics side, I actually studied ethics in University and a bunch of lovely smart PhDs made me confront the fact that being a vegetarian made me a giant hypocrite so I changed myself so my values and lifestyle aligned. People who know me well won’t debate me (because of my ethics background) but random strangers always try and it always devolves into them calling me a hippy or whatever ad hominem attack they can muster. GOOD LUCK! It’s totally worth it
Anonymama
I was very skeptical of your scientific claims regarding B12 and some googling proved them inaccurate:
https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/VitaminB12-HealthProfessional/
https://www.vegansociety.com/resources/nutrition-and-health/nutrients/vitamin-b12/what-every-vegan-should-know-about-vitamin-b12
Anon
B12 is synthesized ONLY by microorganisms. Animals might have B12 from eating those microorganisms but they do not produce it themselves naturally.
Anon
https://microbialcellfactories.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12934-017-0631-y
anon
Part time vegan- taking B12 and iron. You can search this site for past threads- cookbooks from Isa Chandra Moskowitz “Isa does it” and Forks over Knives are good starts; Minimalist Baker online has good fast recipes. Tip of the week: Helmans vegan mayo is great, as is So Delicious vegan ice cream( Ben&Jerry dairy- free variety are not good).
I’m eating lots of beans, lentils, nuts, veggies. Standard work lunch is soy yogurt, fruit, hummus and Pita bread…just started this and vegan 3-4 days per week; fish and eggs other nights as DH isnt on board with this…
mostly vegan
I guess this shows how tastes differ. I think Ben & Jerry’s non dairy ice cream is very good; I’m not so crazy about So Delicious. Someone recommended Daiya cheese — not good. If it’s available in your market, try a nut-based cheese like Kite Hill or Miyoko’s. A vegan diet doesn’t have to be the same thing over and over. My week is/will be
veggie enchiladas ( filled with sauteed onion and zucchini , black beans and spices, using bottled enchilada sauce, corn tortillas, and Miyokos’ sundried tomato “cheese” with green salad
pasta sauce (tomato sauce to which I added onion, garlic and mushrooms) with TJ’s “meatballs” and spaghetti, roasted cauliflower, artisan whole wheat bread, and green salad
enchilada meal again
frozen falafel in pita with homemade soy-yogurt tzaziki (cuke, garlic, dill), tomato chutney and other fillings, spicy green beans
Senegalese peanut stew (with cauliflower, peppers, potatoes, carrots) on brown rice with green salad
[Friday and Saturday are dinner at friends but I’d repeat Senegalese peanut stew if home.]
I sometimes eat things with egg in them (not sure TJs meatballs are vegan), but I was never much of an egg eater, so breakfasts are same as when I was an omnivore – cereal and fruit, toast and butter except the milk is almond and the butter is Earth Balance – or I use almond butter.
Anonymous
I think everyone (without health-dictated requirements for abstention) would be better off eating like this.
I eat meat a few times a year (I may have a burger at the 4th-of-July barbecue, and some other times as I feel like I want it, but this is always red meat or fish – I hate poultry in the US). I pretty much eat just like you. I base my meals around beans/lentils, nuts and seeds, so many vegetables, and (for me,. a definite yes) yogurt and cheese. I think I eat hummus very day, heh!
To the OP, I think this sounds like a great journey for you, and I want to say that cooking real meals and eating “real” food (I mean warm, cooked food, vs. opening packages and eating in the snacky way) would be a great way to establish a healthy foundation for life. With time, you can learn different cuisines and use different herbs/spices. I make large pots of grains and beans on Sundays and use this a base for my weekly work lunches. You could spend some more time on the weekend cooking up some things that will make your dinners during the week easier!
Vent/What would you do?
For over a year my boss and I had been discussing a development plan for me that involved creating a new position. This would be a promotion and transition to a different segment of the company. A few months ago this was discussed and approved by my boss’ boss and a official date was set. That date came and went and nothing.
Then a month goes by and yesterday I was told that my boss’ boss changed their mind and does not want to add a new position in that area for reasons unrelated to me or my job performance. I am the department head so no room for growth in my current position. I am really struggling with this and mainly wanted to vent. Wondering too what others have done in similar situation. I want to make good out of a disappointing outcome.
AnonZ
Honestly, I would make a real stink about this. This isn’t a “disappointing outcome” – this is super disrespectful by both your boss and your boss’s boss, and would have me seriously reconsidering my future at the company. Specifically, next time you have a 1:1 with your boss, I would be very blunt. “I am very frustrated about the changes to the position we had previously discussed. In light of that, what do you see as my future growth at this organization?”
Don’t say you understand, or apologize for bringing it up. Just put your boss on the hot seat a bit. If your boss attempts to blame his/her boss, say, “Then let’s have all three of us discuss this.” Then, with whatever they suggest, point out that it’s difficult to trust any of this will happen, given the recent history.
I would start looking for a new job and give them a month or two to get you into the position that was promised. And then decide whether to leave or resign yourself to a lack of future opportunity there.
Bonnie
Agreed. I’d also tell your boss that your future with the company was contingent on having room to advance. Obviously only make this argument if you are willing to leave.
pugsnbourbon
Yeah, barring a company-wide emergency budget freeze or something – which I figure you’d know about – they seriously scr@wed you over. They talked about this for a year! They set an official transition date!
Anonymous
Yeah. And the fact that they didn’t say anything prior to that date about changing their minds…Way not cool. Worth a stink. What other hard conversations are they avoiding having.
NYNY
Same thing happened to me. Ultimately, I left and am much happier for it. The old job tried to offer me something when I gave notice, which I did not entertain. They have also tried to recruit me for new positions twice since I left. But my current job gives me the autonomy and respect that was missing at my previous job.
Brush up your resume and start networking. It sucks, but you’ll come out the other end in a better place.
lsw
Same as NYNY. I’ve never regretted leaving.
anon a mouse
I left. I had been promised a job that later HR wouldn’t authorize. (The manager should have checked before talking to me about it, but he genuinely didn’t think there would be an issue.)
I could not stay in my existing job because thinking about the new one, I had begun to mentally transition away from my current job and was excited about the challenges ahead. But also, I realized that even if my direct manager wanted to go to bat for me, the powers that be didn’t care about my career progression.
I found something else and it’s been a terrific adventure.
OP
That was totally my mindset. I was excited about the new position and had mentally transitioned away from my current role. It is going to be hard to back track now.
Anonymous
This happened to me last year. After a year and a half of planning and conversations about creating a new (badly needed, as acknowledged by senior leadership) position managing a critical function for the business, which I was very qualified for, I got excuse after excuse about why it couldn’t be done. And then finally was told they needed to “hold off” on creating the position and moving me over for, you know, reasons. I left the company. There was nowhere for me to go without that position being created (it was a small company and I was already pretty high up in management) and without the move, I was going to be stuck doing work I didn’t want to do, indefinitely. No thanks. I started looking and got a higher-paying job, doing exactly the kind of work I wanted to be doing, within three months.
To me, when a company does something like this, they’ve basically showed you what you’re worth to them, which is not much. My former employer was shocked when I said I had gotten another job, and it was obvious they had expected me to hang in there like a good little soldier and do whatever they wanted me to do. No thanks. Not saying you should do what I did, but think about it. When people really value you, they find ways to show it. Even if they couldn’t give you the promotion now, your bosses could have come up with an alternative plan for you. They didn’t. That speaks volumes. Listen to what’s being said.
Anon
Start looking.
Anon
Did you not bring it up at any point before what was supposed to be the transition date? Like a “Hey, how are those plans going?” Or check in at all after the date had come and gone? I understand why it would be hard to do so, especially if you got the feeling that they were pulling back. It would be a difficult conversation. But I’d like to gently suggest that in the future you work on being more assertive about this kind of thing. This was a BFD.
Vent/What would you do?
My boss and I both thought things would happen as planned and had been discussing it often. We work closely together and after the date past I was bugging her about it. The problem was the higher up boss never shared his reservations with my boss. After the date came and went he started avoiding conversations about it (he’s at a different work site) and finally told my boss just last week. And then he didn’t even want to be on a call to deliver the bad news leaving it to my boss alone. Lost a lot, if not all, respect for him.
Vent/What would you do?
*passed (I hate typos)
Help...
This might be a bit TMI, but I’ve noticed that after flying on a plane, I get really bad breath (like morning breath but worse). I assume it’s from the dryness/lack of humidity on planes, but how do I prevent it? I already drink a TON of water and I’m no longer taking allergy medication (which I have heard can dry out the nasal passages), but it doesn’t seem to make a difference. I usually bring gum, but I’d rather prevent than treat the problem if at all possible. I occasionally have bad breath otherwise, but never as bad as on a plane.
Anonymous
Try flossing. Flossing makes everything oral 100% better.
Anonymous
Do you have tonsil stones?
Help...
I don’t think so – never heard of them until you posted this, but I’ve never noticed them. I’ll take a closer look with a light later.
Tmi
I have them. My tonsils are craters. I have to clean out my tonsils every few days. So. Gross.
Anonymous
How do you clean them out? I know I have them too, but I didn’t realize I could clear them out on my own.
Anonymous
squeezing, poking, q tips, bobby pins
Anonymous
And your doctor won’t take your tonsils out? A friend of mine had tonsil craters and her doctor referred her for a tonsillectomy immediately. She got her tonsils out and it was no problem. It’s outpatient surgery.
Tmi
Given that science doesn’t seem to fully understand what tonsils do but think they’re involved in immune system function somehow, that my tonsils don’t hurt, and that I rarely get sick, my doctor thinks a tonsillectomy is unnecessary and possibly would be detrimental to me. So dealing with the stones is just part of cleaning my mouth, so to speak.
And I use a finger to push on one side until they pop out. Like a pimple. Gross but effective but gross.
BB
Brushing and “flossing” (scraping it with floss) your tongue might also help. I find that plaque builds up there for me.
anon
We’ve had good results in our house with Therabreath mouthwash and lozenges.
Godzilla
Try cutting out sugar and simple carbohydrates.
Ellen
I think my ex had this issue. He alwsys seemed to have bad breathe, but especialy the morning after he drank, but he drank beer, wine and Sangria. So I NEVER let him kiss me on the mouth after he drank. I would think that if you drank alot of water, you would NOT have bad breathe. But I think you will have to go to your dentist to see if you have oral probelems, such as bad teeth. You also should get a SONICARE toothbrush like I have and, beleive it or not, brush your TONGUE, in addition to your teeth. Of course, FLOOSING is mandated, b/c you get food between your teeth, and when it rots, it smells. Everytime I think of rotten teeth, I think of my ex, and I do NOT miss that! FOOEY!
Minnie Beebe
Bad breath can sometimes be caused by sinus issues. Maybe try a saline nasal spray.
(DH gets majorly stinky– like I can’t be within 5 ft of him sometimes, and regular spritzes of saline spray seems to keep it at bay…)
The future is female
I missed the post yesterday afternoon where a poster wondered if there is room for conservative women in modern feminism and I wanted to post something here about it. There absolutely is room for women who are politically or socially conservative in feminism and do not let anyone tell you otherwise. If someone responds with “wow, you’re such a prude” for expressing an opinion that differs from theirs, that’s their own insecurity speaking and has nothing to do with you. Women of all stripes can come together to fight for equal pay, an end to domestic violence, paid maternity leave, better birth outcomes for women of color, or any other feminist issue you can think of. Today, there are actually more links between conservative women and radical feminists than ever before, proving that cooperation and compromise across big divides is indeed possible, at least among certain branches of feminism. Remarkably, liberal feminism (with its focus on individual choice) can be somewhat less tolerant of less-mainstream opinions (hence the post yesterday calling you a prude), but I think that you’ll find that most feminists would never exclude you for dressing more conservatively, for talking about the benefits of fewer sexual partners, or for avoiding comedians with crude senses of humor. I, for one, am not a political or social conservative, but I welcome you in feminism! There is plenty of room for women who love Amy Schumer and plenty of room for women who find her brand of humor too vulgar.
ELS
I’m personally very conservative/modest in my choices, politically really very liberal. I’ve never felt ostracized for talking about those things, and I don’t take “prude” to be an insult. YMMV.
I think the difference that a lot of conservative women (politically or personally) are feeling is the push back when they also are telling other women they’re doing it “wrong.” I will absolutely call someone out on that kind of ish (not saying that the poster from yesterday was doing that, btw).
I’m nothing like Amy Shumer, and I don’t really find her funny. But I also am super glad that women like her exist to give people more choice. The issue for me, in accepting someone, isn’t about the choices they make — it’s about how they try to police the choices of others.
I’ve cut out liberals and conservatives from my friend group on this basis.
Anonymous
Yes. Exactly.
Anonymous
Oh, I think prude is an insult. On the scale of things you can call someone it’s not SUPER horrible, but it’s often thrown around as a euphemism for “not sex-positive” or “not adventurous enough sexually” (including here when women express concern or lack of enthusiasm about XYZ gardening habit) and those are definitely derogatory IMO.
lawsuited
I take prude to mean “not adventurous sexually”, I find that it describes me exactly, and so I often use the word to describe myself and am not offended by others using it to describe me. As in all things identity-related, YMMV.
ELS
This is exactly how I take it, and it describes me. I’m not offended by it, but as I noted above, YMMV.
I also don’t find “fat” to be an insult (as a cusp sized person), so maybe I’m in the minority. I’m cool with that — I hold lots of minority opinions.
anon
Yes, there is room unless your beliefs infringe and limit the beliefs that I am fighting for women to keep. I agree that women need to come together and I would never judge another woman for what she chooses to wear or the entertainment that she prefers. However, don’t preach to me about the benefits of fewer sexual partners. In other words, I support your choice but don’t force that on me or look down on other women for their choices. I support women who would personally never have an abortion but don’t push that view on other women who still need that right to remain in place.
The future is female
Yes, but there’s a difference between preaching and providing appropriate sex education. It would be one thing to berate a woman for having “too many” sexual partners, but it’s another to explain the benefits of reducing your STI risk to teenagers, for example.
Not anon 9:24
But that’s not what you said. Practicing safe sex and ensuring teenagers received fact based sexual education is absolutely important to reducing STI risk. Fewer sexual partners is not a goal in and of itself because if you are not practicing safe sex, you are no better off than many partners and practicing safe sex.
Yes the least risk situation is safe sex and fewer partners but people chose to engage in lots of risky behavior like not eating well or not exercising enough. The point is that appropriate education needs to be available so that people can understand risks and makes the best choices for their own lives.
anon
Exactly. This is why abstinence-only education does not work. You must teach safe sex, not “no sex”.
The future is female
No one advocated abstinence-only education! I advocate for teaching teens and young women about the risks associated with various activities (whether it’s sex or drugs or whatever). They need to know both that abstinence is the least risky path for avoiding STIs or unplanned pregnancy AND that they are not bad people for being comfortable taking more risk. Everyone has their own level of risk they’re comfortable with, and everyone should be given the tools and medical care they need to make their choices as healthy as possible for them.
anon
Also, if you are speaking in general terms about supporting women, why are you judging the number of sexual partners they have had? I just don’t see how that comes up in terms of a conversation about feminism and equal rights.
anon
But that’s not what you wrote. You wrote “talk about the benefits of fewer partners.” NOT “talk about the benefits of safe s*x .” Let’s be real, here. The vast majority of women will have multiple partners. While having fewer partners may reduce your risk of contracting an STI, that advice is far less helpful than educating people about safe s*x. It only takes one partner to get an STI.
The future is female
I stand by what I wrote. There is nothing wrong with women having a lot of sexual partners. I never said there was! I merely stated the fact (not a judgment, a fact) that having no sexual partners is less risky in terms of STIs and unplanned pregnancy than having partners, which is why I phrased it as “beneficial” to have fewer sexual partners. As I stated above, everyone should be fully equipped with everything they need to make their choices safe and healthy, which includes sex education, condoms, contraception, discussions about consent, discussions about risk, and everything else.
anon
You didn’t write any of that in your first post (or even your second one). You keep changing up what you believe you meant to say. Whatever concept you are trying to convey, you did it very poorly.
The future is female
I’m not changing anything I said. You seemed confused by my short reference to having fewer partners, so I elaborated to provide you with additional detail about my thoughts. You are welcome!
lawsuited
I took the post to mean that there can be emotional benefits to have fewer partners, which is what I would talk to my daughter about if I had one. I think it’s fair to discuss the upsides and downsides of having fewer partners and of having more partners, as long as one of the downsides of either is never “people will judge you for your number of sexual partners”.
Ellen
I do NOT think I am a prude, but I also do NOT want to have multiple s-xueal partners, and expect that my boyfreind/husband will NOT have multiple s-xeual partners EITHER! After all, I do believe that if you are haveing s-x with someone, you are, at the same time, haveing s-x with everyone that that person has EVER had s-x with. So if your partner had s-x with someone 5 year’s ago that gave him a s-xeual disease, he is giveing that gift to you if you have s-x with him NOW. So if that makes me a prude, so be it. I also will NOT let a man have s-x with me until AFTER he has been s-xueally texted for STD’s. I realise those tests are NOT foolproof, but I would MUCH rather be safe then sorry. There is NO way I want a guy putting his thing in me unless I can have some asurrance that he is NOT bringing me diseases from his past s-xueal conquests. Myrna agrees 100% with me on this point, and this is why we rebuff men who just want to have s-x with us!!! FOOEY!!!
anon
Thank you for nothing. You made an oblique reference to having fewer partners, obviously without thinking about what you were writing, based on the degree of pushback your post caused. (There could be dozens of reasons people would prefer to have fewer partners-your writing was poor; deal with the criticism.) Your very first post had NO references to STI prevention. You got called on the language in your first post by multiple (at least 4?) people and then you started dithering about STIs. It also doesn’t help that posts are showing up at random times, long after they were written, so it’s difficult if not impossible to follow your repeated attempts to describe what you meant.
DCR
The OP from yesterday wasn’t called a prude for being more conservative (which, based on her description, I also am), she was called a prude for judging women who are not so conservative. As much as I hate name-calling, it’s also not helpful to mischaracterizw why the name was used.
Also, being politically and socially conservative (at least as OP used that term) are completly different things. I don’t see how your statement appropriately describes politically conservative people, who support a party that is against core feminist values (equal pay, equal opportunities, medical care for poor women and children, equal treatment of female medical conditions).
Anonymous
Also she was all pearls-graspingly prudish about an interview in a magazine for adults.
Anon
I’m kind of shocked that you’re all doubling down on the use of “prude.” Whether or not you personally find it offensive, do you think it’s a nice thing to say to someone? Do you think it makes the OP more or less likely to listen to your point of view and engage in a discussion about it?
For what it’s worth, prude IS offensive much of the time, especially when used as an insult for any woman who has boundaries. Don’t want to have an o*gy? Prude! Don’t want to try S&M? Huge prude! Disagree with what your boyfriend wants to try in the bedroom? So frigid!
Anonymous
So typical of conservatives to expect to dish out the name-calling and then complain when they get the same behavior back.
And I’m not sure you understand what feminism is if you think feminists call women ‘frigid’ for not wanting to do what their boyfriend wants when they are uncomfortable with it.
Anonymous
I didn’t think calling Amy Schumar crass and vulgar was nice either so yup. Sticking with prude on this one.
Anon
I’m not a conservative, but nice try. Read any number of popular “feminist” websites to see ample evidence of prude being deployed as an insult to get women to do what men want. I’m not going to do your research for you.
Anonymous
Wait, but none of us called her a prude for the reasons you just listed though.
Anon
Anon at 9:52, why did you guys call her a prude? I reread her post and couldn’t find what everyone said was so offensive. Was it the use of “overshare?” That seems too mild to be worthy of name-calling.
Anonymous
It was calling her crass and vulgar and being shocked an adult woman would speak frankly about sex in a magazine for adult women.
Anonymous
It was because of her attitude towards the articles and because she called Amy Schumer crass and vulgar.
Anon
She said that the articles weren’t HER taste and that Amy Schumer is crass and vulgar. So what – she is! Some people love crass humor and some don’t. I don’t see how that was so judgmental.
DCR
But there are not the reason that she was called a prude. The OP complained that Amy Schumar was crass and vulgar, and the Anon called her a prude for judging Amy Schumar. I’m ok with that use of prude, even if its not a word I would use.
Calling someone a prude because they don’t want to have sex, not liking S&M, etc,? Bad, and should never be done (which, by the way, I’ve only seen done by men and never by feminist). Calling someone a prude because they judge other women for liking sex, and being vulgar? Not great because name calling is always bad, but not something I’m going to disagree with. If you start by judging other women harshly, I’m not going to complain that it gets turned against you
anon_8
I agree with you anon at 9:38. I think calling someone a prude is rude and dismissive. I think there are better ways to disagree with someone than name calling. But this is the comments section of a blog post. Name calling is par for the course.
Anony
So, it’s ok to call someone a prude just because they first called someone else crass? This is the type of justification a child uses, and calling someone a name is the best way to ensure they won’t listen to you with open ears. If you want to have a dialogue – and maybe even an effective one that changes someone’s opinion – have a dialogue, don’t resort to name-calling.
Anonymous
+1
Judging women for their choices isn’t very feminist.
Aunt Jamesina
What if those choices aren’t feminist, or are anti-feminist? Feminism of choice is an intellectually lazy slippery slope.
lawsuited
The poster from yesterday was not called a prude because of her sexual choices, she was called a prude because of her opinion that Amy Schumer should not be talking about her own sexuality in the way Schumer prefers, and her opinion that women talking frankly about their sexuality was distasteful (“crass” and “vulgar”).
Anonymous
Yeah absolutely. I think that poster was a judgmental uptight prude. I don’t think she can’t also be a feminist if she wants.
anon
“but I think that you’ll find that most feminists would never exclude you for dressing more conservatively, for talking about the benefits of fewer sexual partners, or for avoiding comedians with crude senses of humor.”
One of these things is not like the other. I am a feminist and I do not care if you choose to dress conservatively or if you dislike crass humor or do not wish to discuss your s*xuality openly. That’s totally fine-those are your personal preferences. But you should expect push back if you go around saying that there are “benefits” to having fewer s*xual partners. (Just curious, how few are we talking about here? Less than 100? Less than 20? Less than 5? Less than 2?) The difference between such a proclamation and your distaste for crude humor is that a) it’s not objectively true and b) unlike the other things OP notes, this veers into judging/shaming women for s*xual choices. Moreover, 9/10 times the alleged “benefits” are nothing other than re-packaged patriarchal norms. This is NOT a tenet of feminism.
OP
I’m yesterday’s OP who posted about the women’s mag interviews.
The responses to my post yesterday gave me a lot to think about. Most of you said that while you might not talk that way, you were happy to see other women push boundaries to make all kinds of female behavior okay. I had never thought about it that way before, and I really appreciate those of you who posted thoughtful responses to my post.
I felt like my way of behaving is not being represented anymore in mainstream publications, but like you all said, my way will always be accepted by the mainstream, so maybe we need to show more options so everything is accepted, not just the traditional way.
For what it’s worth, I am very socially and politically liberal. And I did call myself an old lady in my original post so I get that some of you might think I’m uptight! Still, I probably could have phrased my original post better.
Anon
I’m just catching up on yesterday’s post, but wanted to add that this comment was a very thoughtful response.
ELS
OP — thanks for chiming in.
As noted above, I’m in a similar boat to you (behave relatively conservatively, am not politically or socially conservative). I also operate under the “good for her! Not for me!” principle, which causes me to embrace the space people that I don’t act like create for other women.
I appreciate you creating some (a lot!) of conversation around this topic, and for being open to listening to responses from other women.
emeralds
OG OP, this is a gracious and reflective response. Thank you for taking the time to read and think through others’ responses.
OP
Also, I noticed a lot of people were upset with my use of “crass” and “vulgar.” One of the definitions of “vulgar” is “making explicit and offensive reference to s e x or bodily functions; coarse and rude.” That is exactly what the celebs in question were doing, so I stand by my word choice. I do see that “vulgar” could also be interpreted as an insult because another definition is “unrefined,” which is more subjective. But I meant it in the first way: Explicit references to s e x and bodily functions.
I definitely did not mean to name call other women! I should have said that the tone of the interviews or specific comments struck me as crass and vulgar, not the women themselves.
Thanks, as always, to this community for making me think.
anonlawyer
Your definition is “explicit and offensive”! how can that not be an insult?
anon
I think I understood the intent of your original post. I find mags like cosmo etc make stuff out to be way more pleasurable for women than it actually is, leaving many feeling like there is something wrong with us if we don’t enjoy that particular act. I had to leave a facebook moms group because, among other things, there was a please yo man mentality I didn’t really jive with.
Anonattorney
I think it’s important to always remember that your personal experience is not representative of every woman’s experience. Personally, I came to the conclusion that fewer partners was better for me emotionally, after spending a few years in some self-destructive behavior with men. That behavior was based on my own immaturity, inexperience, and low self-image. As a result, I decided that going slower with respect to sex in a relationship was better FOR ME. That does not mean that it’s better for all women. And, to be honest, a lot of the issues with how I viewed myself were exacerbated by a societal mindset that having multiple partners is sl**ty behavior, and reserved for only women with low self-esteem. It’s all a vicious cycle.
Anyway, just remember that our job as feminists is not to preach to other women the right way to be a woman. Who the hell knows, anyway.
Best suit ever
I was searching for a replacement of a commando brand slip to replace one I’ve worn into the ground and found this:
http://shop.nordstrom.com/s/opposuits-commando-trim-fit-two-piece-suit-with-tie/4409220?origin=keywordsearch-personalizedsort&fashioncolor=KHAKI%20ARMY
It comes with a tie, y’all!
RNSF
I think I like the one with $100 bills on it better :P
Mary Ann Singleton
I totally want to wear that one on the day I hand in my notice at work!
Anon
Not the exact same thing, but multiple gentlemen in my BigLaw office purchased the holiday themed suits and wore them to our holiday party. They also went through the additional step of having them tailored. None of them had discussed it beforehand, so it was rather humorous when they all showed up dressed in these suits.
Anonymous
If political or social conservatism means being anti-abortion, then no, you can’t call yourself a feminist.
The future is female
I used to think that too, and still do to some extent, but now I accept that many anti-abortion women do work tirelessly on behalf of women in other ways. I know anti-abortion women who volunteer at DV shelters or advocate for women’s health in other ways and I won’t completely write that off. I’d rather work with them where we can and then work with others who are pro choice otherwise.
Cornellian
I agree, but I think a very, very small percentage of pro-life people are in that camp. I have an ex-nun aunt who genuinely falls in to that camp, but I think for every 1 of them, there are 20 folks who are not at all interested in protecting women.
Anonymous
Sure, they can be good people who do good work, but they are not feminists.
ELS
Yup. 100%.
Anonymous
+1
Anonymous
Yes. I don’t think anyone who isn’t a feminist is a horrible person devoid of merit! But if you aren’t pro choice you aren’t a feminist.
Every Time
This is so exhausting. “If you aren’t pro choice you aren’t a feminist.” Yes, I am. Feminism is “the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes.” (Miriam Webster.) I can absolutely support the equality of the sexes and also have a genuinely held belief that life begins at conception. I have successfully lobbied my employer for parental leave (6 weeks paid for both mothers and fathers), I have spoken on equal pay at industry conferences, I have otherwise waved the banner of feminism at every turn– and I am pro-life. You don’t get to say I’m not a feminist because I have a different religious belief than you. I have read posts on here that literally say “f*** you” to people who try to explain their pro-life stance. I believe that women are absolutely politically, economically, and socially equal to men. And I believe that no man or woman has the right to take the life of a child. They are not mutually exclusive.
Anon
Do you support mandatory organ donation from parent to child if the child’s life is in danger?
Anonymous
Have all the religious beliefs you want. No one is saying that you have to have an abortion no matter what the cost. Feel free to die if that’s what you want. But don’t make me risk my life for YOUR religious beliefs.
bluefield
You can not have an abortion all you want and still be a feminist, but once you start telling other women what they can and cannot do with their bodies, you are no longer a feminist. You are implicitly telling a woman who wants an abortion that you know better than she does what is the “right” thing to do in her very personal situation. That is an anti-feminist stance.
Anonymous
“You are implicitly telling a woman who wants an abortion that you know better than she does what is the “right” thing to do in her very personal situation. That is an anti-feminist stance.”
This, times a million.
Sigh
Sorry, nope.
“Feminism is “the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes.” (Miriam Webster.) I can absolutely support the equality of the sexes and also have a genuinely held belief that life begins at conception.”
Sure, you can have a genuinely held believe that life begins at conception but when that translates to being pro-life, you are not a feminist because you do not support a woman’s complete control over her own body, which is what men have.
Anon too
Could we just concede that it is possible that biological men and women were made differently such that structurally, they are not equal. A (cis) man is never going to be able to carry a baby. Saying we can’t have equality unless women can have abortions is like saying we can’t have equality unless men start carrying babies. I’m 100% pro-choice but the above argument has always been nonsensical to me. Men and women are biologically different and have different needs. No one says it is unfair that women get lactation breaks and men don’t. Again, different needs.
Anonymous
+100000
Anonymous
Anon too:
I don’t dispute that men and women are biologically different. The difference is that regardless of their biological differences, a cis man’s body is not controlled by law/regulation. A cis woman’s body is in re: abortion.
nasty woman
It must be exhausting to keep defending an incorrect position.
You can never have political, economic, or social equality without the right to control your reproduction.
Being pro-life and supporting political, social, and economic equality for women ARE mutually exclusive. Men and women are not “equal” when you force women to gestate. Because by “preventing” a pregnant woman from “taking the life of her child” (gag me with this simpering language) you are FORCING HER TO GESTATE WITH HER BODY. There is NO universe in which a man will ever be required to do this, so by definition there is NO equality. Preventing a man from killing a fetus does not impose the same burden upon him. Preventing a man or a woman from killing a born child does not impose the same burden upon them. We do NOT force parents- men or women- to donate organs or even blood to their children. Forcing women to gestate places her at the lowest status- her body is subordinated to the fetus’s.
Do you believe women should be forced to have s*x against their will? Forced to give blood against their will? Why or why not? If I give birth and my baby needs a blood transfusion, do you think it’s ethical for the hospital to immediately strap me down and force me to donate blood? Why or why not?
Forcing someone to gestate against her will is slavery. How hard is this to understand? You can’t enslave women and call yourself a feminist. You want to force me to bear a child against my will! How can you not understand how OFFENSIVE that is to my very being? That you think that my body, my life, my career, my health, my relationships, my autonomy and the destiny I have chosen for myself are totally expendable. It’s repugnant. My gut reaction to people like you is as strong as if you told me I should be forced to go have s*x with some man because it would please you and your god. You live in a delusional world if you think that a woman can be equal to men–either in practicality or in theory–when she cannot control something as fundamental as whether and when she bears a child.
Anon
+1,000,000. Men can never get pregnant, so saying that we can be “equal” to them through a “no man or woman can kill a child” policy is absurd. What we need is EQUITY that acknowledges the unique nature of gestation and the burdens it imposes on females and only females. Women can never be free of male oppression without full control over their reproduction.
emeralds
nasty woman, thank you for being such a tireless voice against the forces of the patriarchy. You’re my personal r*tte hero.
JB
This was the best explanation of how I felt, but could not articulate. Thanks, I learned something today. (Completely genuine)
bluefield
“You can never have political, economic, or social equality without the right to control your reproduction.”
A thousand times this. It is no coincidence that the rise of women in the workforce coincided with the rise of birth control. You cannot have women fully participant in the workforce unless women can control their reproduction.
nasty woman
Thanks, ladies <3
Anonymous
Yeah they are. Sorry.
Never too many shoes...
Nope. If you work towards restricting MY right to have an abortion based on YOUR religious belief, you are not a feminist. You might do great work for women in some areas, but you are not a feminist.
And to be honest, I think that *anyone* who thinks that it is desirable to write laws based on their moral code that massively impacts the lives of everyone regardless of their beliefs is astonishingly arrogant and entitled in their thinking.
Anon
Very well said.
Anonymous
The problems is that Women cannot be equal to men if they cannot make a decision about their own body and reproductive health.
Anonymous
This. Trying to restrict other women’s choice is not feminist. A core tenet of feminism is that women must have control over their own bodies – whether re: domestic violence, sexual assault or sexual harassment or reproductive choice.
Anonymous
We, as a society, have an interest in protecting the vulnerable and the weak and the voiceless. We don’t kill the old, the sick, people with diminished capacities, people with Down syndrome, etc. We don’t kill day-old babies. The viability threshold has moved back so much due to science, we have limits on complete freedom of reproductive choice.
IIRC, in the middle ages, it wasn’t a forbidden abortion before quickening. Perhaps people didn’t know they were pregnant then they way they do now.
But science is making the line drawing very interesting in an abstract philosophical sense.
Also, my area has a big statutory rape problem (teen girls with way adult men — 20s/30s and a lot of teen pregnancy is evidence of a felony). [In many of these, the rape could also be charged even if the ages were OK; there is an additional element of coercion often present in addition to age b/c of immigration status.] These girls need a lot of love and support b/c of all of this. I don’t know quite what the answer is, but the reality of a lot of what I see isn’t solved by the (often very clinical) “insert tab A into slot B” educational tracts I come across (all of which do a p*ss poor job of dealing with things like emotions, power, consent, healthy relationships, negotiating what one will/won’t do).
Anonymous
And? Like, that’s surely a pro choice argument you are making. Pro choice doesn’t mean absolutely zero restrictions kill a baby at 9 months.
nasty woman
No one has the right to use my body. Doesn’t matter how “vulnerable” and “weak” and “voiceless” they are. I’m so tired of this simpering, emotive language used to describe fetuses. (An entity that can literally hijack a woman’s immune system and cause her to gestate and then give birth to it is hardly helpless…) Killing people with downs syndrome, day old babies, or old people as F all to do with reproductive choice because the reproductive process is complete once you’re dealing with a person with down’s syndrome, a day old baby, or and old or sick person.
Bonnie
There already are legal protections for the viable fetuses and abortions are already restricted to the non-viable. We can’t give them a voice by taking the voice away from the mother who will have to carry and support that child.
These are separate legal and moral issues. It may be your choice not to have an abortion, but you don’t have the right to make that choice for every other woman.
Statutory rape is still rape. Not quite sure how that leads to limiting access to abortions. If anything, abortions are available so these teenage rape victims are not forced to drop out of school to raise children that were forced upon them.
Anonymous
Everything you say in this post is total bulls ** t. I honestly can’t believe you think these are compelling pieces of evidence to support your argument. I hope you’re not a lawyer.
Anonymous
I almost agree, but I would make an exception for someone who is powerfully committed to universal bc access (donating to pp, and marching, and offering accurate, up-to-date info to other women) AND truly pro-life as in, supporting universal healthcare, parental leave, living minimum wages, and, as mentioned above, a suite of options for escaping DV (including secular options).
Yes, it sounds like a lot. But I think they are all part of being a feminist.
All of those parts of feminism may not be equally important to everyone, including me. But the moment you say, “no abortions”, you’d better step up on offering another, complete, alternative, or else no, you are not a feminist.
Anonymous
There’s literally no alternative to ‘no abortions’ unless you want dead women.
Anti-choice is anti-feminist. Period. There are no exceptions.
I had to terminate one twin to save the other and myself. It makes me sick to my stomach every single day for the last four years since it happened that I had to make that choice. It makes me white hot with rage every time someone acts like a better social network with parental leave and universal healthcare (like we HAVE where I live) would have saved my baby because then abortions wouldn’t be necessary.
Anon at 9:40
I’m so sorry for what you went through. I considered only full rights to unrestricted abortions (because that’s what I believe in, and what I believe feminists should support), not the myriad of supposed “compromises” conservatives in the USA would propose to cover situations like yours.
lawsuited
I am so, so sorry, Anonymous. I will carry the story of you and your twins with me wherever I go for the the rest of my life.
Anonymous
That’s a tough choice I’m sorry you had to make it. I hope you look at yourself holding your surviving baby in the mirror and is comforted that you made the right choice – the only right choice. Life is unfair, and sometimes there are no good choices only bad ones and worse ones.
Anonymous
Someone who does all that sounds pretty pro-choice to me, but I’m also thinking that person is a magical unicorn.
Anon at 9:40
I’ve known a few, but it is usually a step along the way towards supporting abortion rights. Sometimes a painfully slow step.
Anon
Nope, no, no, you can do all those things and still end up pregnant. No, not a feminist with this alternative platform. Sorry.
Anonymous
Yes this. Even in that fantasy land I still have a right to control the contents of my body.
Anon too
That’s where the morality policing comes in! You only end up pregnant if you are promiscuous (it’s your fault, deal with the consequence) or you were r@ped (it’s okay, we have an exception for that). /sarcasm.
There are 100 reasons a woman would not want to disclose and have to prove she was r@ped.
Anon at 9:40
Pushing back against the idea that I’m morality policing–I would require supporting full access (preferably free) to birth control. So no, I’m not conflating pregnancy with promiscuity.
Anonymous
You realize no form of birth control is 100% right? So, yes, you are.
Anonymous
Or you can be trying to conceive, and end up with life-threatening ectopic pregnancy, that still requires abortion.
nasty woman
Here’s the thing, though. There are no alternatives to the right to abortion. Anti’s have been rolling out this “new” brand of “pro-life feminism” lately where they argue that you can be a feminist and anti-abortion and in fact abortion is anti-feminist because it lets society avoid making the effort to support pregnant women. This argument is flawed because it assumes without showing that a) all women would want to have their babies if they were provided the appropriate missing ‘support;’ and b) there is no fundamental wrong in taking away a person’s freedom to control their reproductive lives. This material help may make the difference for *some* women, and allow them to complete a pregnancy they might otherwise feel compelled to abort. That’s great. I like that. But the reality is that material support is not always going to be enough. Material support can’t fix a botched education or career. Material support can’t fix all health problems. Material support can’t fix being tied to a man you don’t want to be tied to.
Material support won’t make a woman who doesn’t want to be a mother happy about being a mother. No amount of healthcare, food stamps, job training assistance, minimum wage hikes, etc, can possibly ever compensate for forcing a woman to have a baby she doesn’t want.
Most importantly and fundamentally, material support doesn’t compensate for the loss of autonomy over your life and body.
The future is female
I really do agree to a large extent with what everyone is saying here (and my job is in global women’s health, so I’m close to the ground on unsafe abortion and family planning issues). I just find it hard to contemplate who gets to decide what constitutes “feminism.” It seems natural/self-evident to say that feminism requires women to have complete control over their own bodies. That is, of course, relevant and fundamental to feminism. But what about feminists who claim that if you don’t support certain stances on other issues, you’re not feminist? I have seen people say you can’t be a feminist if you don’t support open borders or if you don’t unequivocally support a Palestinian state. Those problems made me more uncomfortable with saying “nope, you’re not a feminist!” to anti-abortion people who do other good work for women. It’s tricky, though, since abortion is CLEARLY related to women whereas most of the other issues of the day are secondarily related at best.
Anonymous
It’s not tricky. Control of reproduction is the heart of feminism. Being clear about that doesn’t mean you need to have an answer to every problem.
Anonymous
+1
The future is female
Yes, I get that, but haven’t you seen those popular slogans “my feminism will be intersectional or it will be bulls*it?” I don’t agree with people who say that you must hold uniformly leftist positions on every major political issue of the day in order to call yourself a feminist, but what’s to stop an anti-abortion person from saying that I’m just as rigid with my definition of feminism? I support abortion on demand at all stages of pregnancy; does anyone who doesn’t go that far not get to call themselves a feminist?
Anonymous
I don’t care what memes say. And I don’t care if anti abortion people don’t like it. Control of reproduction is the end game of the patriarchy.
Anonymous
does anyone who doesn’t go that far not get to call themselves a feminist? – yes, if you don’t go ‘that far’ you are not a feminist.
nasty woman
You’re essentially arguing that simply because there’s some debate as to whether you must hold certain “leftist” (ugh) positions to be a feminist that you can dissent from ANY position and still call yourself a feminist. Just because you can’t identify the exact point at which dissent from a position means you’re not a feminist doesn’t mean that you can dissent from ALL positions and still call yourself a feminist. Does that make sense? The difference is that some positions are fundamental and some are not.
Suburban
Anon at 1012- I want that last sentence on a bumper sticker.
Anonymous
+1
We’re not talking about the greater issues of intersectional feminism. The literal definition of feminism is equality between men and women – there is no equality if I don’t have bodily autonomy, the end.
Minnie Beebe
+Infinity
Anonymous
“I have seen people say you can’t be a feminist if you don’t support open borders or if you don’t unequivocally support a Palestinian state.”
I’ve never seen this. There is a clear need for white feminism to be more intersectional but that’s different then claiming because there is disagreement about intersectional issues, then anti-choicers are feminists too.
The future is female
Here’s one article I liked from a few months back that raised some of these issues (there were others related to the Women’s March too): https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/07/opinion/does-feminism-have-room-for-zionists.html?_r=0
Anonymous
Yeah and Linda Sarsour is actively co-opting a women’s movement to peddle her own pro Palestinian anti Israel movement. And? It’s a side show, and she’s wrong, and I refuse to stop defending the core of feminism because some activists have decided to bring a new agenda with them.
Anonymous
“I refuse to stop defending the core of feminism because some activists have decided to bring a new agenda with them.”
LOVE this. Will definitely steal this line in the future.
The future is female
Anon at 10:14, I agree with you – I’ve just been receiving so much pushback for focusing my feminism on reproductive rights for women. It’s possible that most of the criticism is coming from a small but vocal minority that is hijacking feminism, but it has been intense at times. I was starting to feel like I was in a minority position myself, but the comments on this post have been encouraging.
Have the t shirt
You know, it just seems backwards to be policing people who identify with a group because of one issue in a whole spectrum of issues. Isn’t it more productive, if someone identifies as feminist but has concerns about abortion, to say, “yes, glad we agree on some things, but here is why reproductive rights are so important for feminism.” Rather than “No, you aren’t allowed to be feminist if you don’t agree completely,” which totally shuts down dialogue. Like, bring ’em in and then convert them, because there’s no chance if you push them away.
I am very liberal but this aspect of politics, which has grown on both sides, makes me seethe. And really it started with the Republican Contract for America no tax pledges and all that, if you don’t toe the line we will take you down. And it’s effective as a political tool but doesn’t make for a good governing tool. And foments the polarization that makes the other side the enemy and gets us where we are now.
New Tampanian
One of the big things we need to differentiate is being PERSONALLY against abortion (i.e., Sara would never get an abortion herself) vs. being against ANYONE HAVING A CHOICE about whether or not to get an abortion.
This is something people have a hard time stating clearly. I do think, however, it is difficult to claim yourself as a feminist if you are of the belief that abortion should be outlawed. Taking CHOICE away from women to have say over their body is not in line with wanting economic and societal equality for women.
JB
yes, yes, yes. Your choice versus another’s choise
Anon
YES. I’m a feminist. I would never have an abortion. I would never tell someone else she can’t have an abortion.
See? That wasn’t so hard. Try it.
Never too many shoes...
Anon (1:45pm) – it just may be you that is the magical unicorn. Because hardly anyone on the internet says that.
bluefield
Nope, many people say this. Many many people are personally against abortion and wouldn’t have one themselves, but would never think it their right to tell another person what to do. Being pro-choice does not mean being pro-abortion. I have children. I am not pro-abortion. I just have this crazy idea that if a woman wants to undergo a medical procedure with a doctor, the people who should be involved in that decision are a) the woman; and b) her doctor. Not c) anyone else.
Spirograph
I say this too. I am anti-abortion in a “safe, legal and rare” way. I wouldn’t choose it for myself absent a life-threatening medical condition. But I think it’s important that everyone have the choice.
Anon
+100000000000000000000000000000000000
Trying to know my office
After a year, I still have very little idea how to dress for my casual office. There is a vast spectrum from hoodies with holes to men in collared shirts. I think I’m over-dressing a bit, mixing AT blouses with jeans.
Obviously, following my bosses cues seems the best bet. How do I do that though? We’re totally different body types, so none of the cuts or lines she wears are an option for me. Her casual clothes are usually visibly branded, none of them within my price range.
What other aspects of her style chould or should I be trying to copy, to fit her idea of appropriate office wear?
Anon
It’s less about copying and more about understanding what’s okay to wear in your environment. Are people in jeans, are they in sandals, are they usually topping everything off with a blazer, etc. You don’t have to mimic someone’s style.
Anonymous
I do understand that it’s not about looking like a style-clone. I’m asking here about how to define the qualities of “what’s okay” when all I have is one person’s attire to draw from.
Yes, almost everyone wears jeans, men and women, as do I. No blazers. Any other ideas? Thanks.
Anonymous
Wear jeans and a nice top if everyone else wears jeans. Don’t over-complicate this.
OP
I swear I’m not trying to complicate things when I say I don’t seem to know what a “nice top” is :(.
lawsuited
Your AT blouses are “nice tops” and totally fine paired with jeans for a casual work environment. To keep the look casual, finish the look with ballet flats, loafers or sneakers (not running or athletic shoes).
OP
Yeah…as mentioned below, what I’m doing now is not working in my office. But thanks for the support. I guess I work/live in a pretty unusual place.
cat socks
If the majority of the people including your boss wear jeans, then it seems like you can wear jeans any day of the week. I think ponte knit pants would be fine too for a change. Instead of blazers, cardigans are more casual. Maybe ankle pants and a casual blouse?
If you wear dresses, then perhaps knit/ponte materials would work more so than structured sheath dresses.
My office is very casual and I’ve seen people in flip flops, but I personally don’t like to wear them to the office. I wear flats or sandals. Open toe or strappy sandals are fine.
I think it’s okay to be a little more on the dressy side as long as you’re not totally on the other end of the spectrum
cat socks
In a casual office, jeans and AT blouses sound fine. If you want to go more casual you can switch out the blouses for knits.
I don’t think you need to wear the same cut of clothes as your boss, but maybe follow the types of clothes she wears. Does she mostly wear jeans? If so, then you can go with jeans in the style that fit your body best.
Miz Swizz
My direct supervisor is male, so he isn’t much help as far as determining how to dress. The woman at his level tends to dress much younger than I do, so she isn’t much help either. We’re a business casual office that skews very casual, but I prefer wearing work clothes to work and tend to be one of the less casually dressed in the office.
I think as long as you aren’t coming off as tone-deaf to the company or pointedly dressing nicer than your coworkers, people probably don’t notice. Are you getting comments that you’re overdressed?
OP
I think I am coming off as tone-deaf. I get pointed looks frequently, comments once or twice. Although I think the comments were intended as compliments, they definitly didn’t come across that way.
Anonymous
I’m curious about the comments . . . alluding to you being too dressed up?
OP
Saying that I was dressed “fancy” was the one that stung the most. My male supervisor can be a little tone deaf. I think that was because I wore earrings, wedge heels, and a skirt at the same time. I’ve also been asked, point-blank, why I wear dresses, if I risk that from time to time.
Anonymous
Gotcha. Ignore these people. Even if they are in management, it’s inappropriate. If you are not in violation of the dress code, no one should be commenting on your clothes and even if you are in violation of the dress code, only HR should be talking to you about it.
As someone mentioned above, your AT blouses are nice tops. Totally appropriate so long as there are no cutouts or the like. I completely understand wearing dresses – they are my go to because they are easy and comfortable. However, if your workplace is such that no one else wears dresses and people feel comfortable commenting on this sort of thing, you are probably have two choices – keep on keeping on with your choice and do the “why do you say that” bit when people comment or don’t wear dresses. Personally, I would go with the former, but I DGAF as long as I am presenting as professional.
Anon
It sounds like you’re taking these comments too personally. Why would “fancy” sting?
Frozen Peach
I work in an office with exactly the same dress code, and I feel your pain, OP.
Saying “just wear jeans and a nice top” sounds so easy. Nice tops to wear with jeans are a unicorn clothing item and are HARD TO FIND. Many are made for evening/going out, so not office-appropriate. Many others are just a tiny bit too casual for someone in a leadership role (even though many of my male clients wear like, wifebeaters). I can only buy so many colors of the same pleione popover shirt, and most non-evening tops made by major retailers are either sporty/weekend wear or clearly made to wear on date night.
I may be guilty of periodically posting here asking for tops that fall into this magical category. Some seasons have been kinder than others. The cold shoulder trend has made the last year truly brutal shopping. The struggle is real. :)
Frozen Peach
Sorry, keyboard malfunction– that should have been “most non-evening tops…are either sporty/weekend wear or clearly made to wear with work clothing like a suit and too formal for jeans.”
OP
THANK YOU! for the support.
Also, I think perhaps “sporty” is exactly the word to describe my bosses clothes. Which makes sense, because she likes sports. She keeps them feminine by wearing a lot of pink, and crisper/professional by going for high-end brands. It’s a solution she’s found to the shopping dilemma you described, but not one that works for me.
Simple anon from above
I have to disagree. I have no problem finding tops to wear with jeans in my office. My tops don’t have weird cutouts, they aren’t off the shoulder, and they are not cotton logo t-shirts. I have purchased many Pleione tops which fit the bill perfectly, in addition to some faux wrap tops which are perfectly acceptable with a camisole.
Any of the regular brands mentioned here have plenty of acceptable tops that are perfectly appropriate to wear with jeans in the office.
Frozen Peach
Then LINKS, Simple!! Share the casual office love!
(above tone meant in totally friendly way– help us find the unicorns!)
Never too many shoes...
Isn’t the consistently recommended Boden Ravello a solution to this problem?
OP
As is often mentioned here, Boden works best for the short-waisted. But thanks for the thought.
Frozen Peach
There are a few consistently recommended shirts that I have bought in multiple colors. Boden is too boxy for my frame. If you are large-busted, this is a harder shopping problem because button-downs rarely work without a lot of structural engineering (tape, pins, matching camis, tailoring, etc etc).
Fishie
Pleonie tops fall into this category. What about a whole bunch of their mixed media tunics? I think a t-shirt and cardigan could work here, if the t-shirt is not a typical cotton t. Maybe something with ruffled sleeves (Loft) or dolman sleeves (target) or a silk fabric (AT)? Halogen has all kinds of cute tops that could go with jeans or black pants. H&M’s creped blouse, trumpet sleeve blouse, or v necked blouse. Zara cross front blouses. Everlane silk blouses. Asos probably has a million things.
lawsuited
OP, if links will help:
I don’t generally shop at AT, but the links below are similar to blouses I wear with jeans on casual Fridays:
https://www.anntaylor.com/leaf-swirl-pleated-popover-shell/435143?skuId=23105560&defaultColor=2996&colorExplode=false&catid=cata000010
https://www.anntaylor.com/solid-v-neck-shell/439957?skuId=23307889&defaultColor=5183&colorExplode=false&catid=cata000010
These are some of the shoes I pair with the look:
http://shop.nordstrom.com/s/lucky-brand-eaden-flat-women/4723244?origin=keywordsearch-personalizedsort&fashioncolor=NUDE%20LEATHER
http://shop.nordstrom.com/s/michael-michael-kors-fulton-flat-women/4314632?origin=keywordsearch-personalizedsort&fashioncolor=OLIVE%20SPORT%20SUEDE
http://shop.nordstrom.com/s/vince-camuto-becker-perforated-slip-on-sneaker-women/4327821?origin=keywordsearch-personalizedsort&fashioncolor=BLACK%20WEAVE
CountC
I’ll add some that I wear regularly although keep in mind my office is business casual heavy on casual and some groups are jeans and t-shirts all the time. Cutout shirts are also prevalent (incl managers) and one of the rotationals had on what looked like pajama pants last week.
https://www.nordstromrack.com/shop/product/2074652/pleione-bailey-double-pleat-blouse?color=TOMATO%20RED
https://www.nordstromrack.com/shop/product/1625434/pleione-short-sleeve-kim-blouse?color=CORAL
https://www.target.com/p/women-s-sleeveless-printed-favorite-shirt-merona-153/-/A-52032351#lnk=sametab
https://www.target.com/p/women-s-printed-shell-merona-153/-/A-52124835#lnk=sametab
I usually throw a camisole on underneath most of these.
Anon at 9:40
Thanks
Miz Swizz
Agree. That’s why I tend to wear dresses more than anything else. Casual jewelry and footwear can help to casual up an outfit, have you tried printed flats or trendier accessories? I think a certain level of DGAF is necessary any time someone is making comments about your appearance but if you feel that it’s affecting your perception at work, perhaps you could try for a bit more casual?
Anon
You lean fancy. So do I.
I think Chanel once said, before you leave the house, look in the mirror and take off one accessory.
So I kind of do that to casual down my outfit. Skirt and long necklace and heels? Switch to flats. Pants and a blazer? Ditch the blazer. Wearing a dress? Wear a hoodie with it. Basically, I just casual down one piece of my outfit.
Make sure you have some really casual options in your wardrobe. You might get some converse or vans or Mary Jane sneakers to wear with your dresses, for instance. I like a long hoodie I found on Amazon made of a drapey jersey.
I’m still on the fancier end of the spectrum, no question, but it’s a little easier when you can say, “what? I’m wearing a hoodie”
Rainbow Hair
I skew fancy, too. Like the hoodie, I have moto jackets in different weights, for colder and less cold days. It casuals-down an outfit.
Anonymous
+1
This is great advice.
You don’t have to change how you are. Just adapt.
Anonymama
Instead of cuts, maybe think more on fabrics and “vibe”: is she wearing cotton knit t shirts? Silky blouses? Is her style very trendy, preppy, pacific-northwest fleecey? Is she very polished/”done” as far as makeup, accessories, hair, or more low-key/understated?
I’m sort of baffled by the mention of visible brands because imo here is not really that much style difference between clothes at Nordstrom and clothes at Target or Loft.
Anon Mom
Do you think the “mixed media” tops or Gap/Old Navy button downs would work?
I work in a similar environment and pair a bunch of plain tops in black/blue/gray/white with jeans and add a waterfall cardigan or something flowly.
Another option that could make you look less “fancy” is to use more basic accessories- maybe stick to relatively dainty jewelry and more relaxed scarves rather than silk ones (if you wear them) or even more relaxes “throw it on” styles of wearing them rather than the more elaborate knots.
I think fancy is just more of “put effort into my appearance” rather than “you look like you are going to the opera”
I'm at my wit's end
Tips to survive a job that you hate / is a bad fit / has a horrible culture / is really bad for your mental health.
I’m a recent grad (graduated a year ago). In my first job. It’s a terrible fit. The culture is really bad. I’m expected to be available to work 24/7 as needed. On top of that, I don’t really like the work. It’s taken me a while to come to this realization. This was originally my dream job. But now I know I want to leave. I started my search this weekend.
In the interim, how do I stay sane at work? When work gets crazy, when they make me work late nights or all weekend, I just feel like an anxious, sad, or angry mess. I’m sure my bad attitude is evident and I want to hide it but I’ve always worn my heart on my sleeve and it just feels really difficult. Because I have to be available all the time, there’s no promise land of “just get through this task, this afternoon, etc.”
I know I shouldn’t tank my reputation here but this job has in the last year destroyed my mental health. I’m in therapy now and my therapist and I agree this is he most anxious I have ever been.
I'm at my wit's end
*reposting from yesterday because I posted very late in the day*
And should have added a question mark to my first sentence. Man, I’m tired.
Freelance avocado enthusiast
When your job starts having this big of an impact on your mental health, you need to get out yesterday. Seriously. I was in your position in my second job out of school (was around age 26) or so. Not only did it take a long time to recover mentally, my physical health suffered.
When it’s this bad, trying to keep powering through is only going to make things worse. Particularly, if it’s a 24/7 commitment and you never get downtime to recover. In hindsight, I should’ve quit. Even if I didn’t have another job to go to right away and it meant borrowing money to do so.
I realize quitting is a drastic step. Do you have any vacation time stored up? I would not hesitate to take it SOON. Do not ask permission. If you don’t take the benefits you’ve EARNED, you’re giving away your work for free. (It took me way too long to learn that lesson, BTW.) Use that vacation to do whatever you need to do recharge. Start looking for other work, definitely, but keep the focus on your mental and physical recovery.
Anne
Hugs. This is really hard. Try to have little things outside of work that you look forward to but don’t depend on a set time: a DVRed TV show, a pedicure when you can, a treat take-out order etc. Also, keep up your connection with those who love you: email, text, call friends and family and chat when you can. Lastly, keep up that job search! You deserve to go somewhere better for you.
JuniorMinion
Couple of things from an ex ibanker:
1) Is this a job (investment banking etc) that is designed to be like this? If so there is a certain amount of sh!t eating as a jr person you are expected to do but there will also be a pretty clear path to (corp dev / pe / other buyside) some of which will give you a better balance / more sane individuals to deal with on a daily basis. If its not one of these types of positions I would start looking. If you are in banking I hope you respond as I would encourage you to try to hit the 2 year mark as that tends to be when corp dev / PE etc is more of a real option
2) Get outside. Even if only for a walk around the block. Even if said walk happens at 2 AM.
3) Exercise . Even if it is only for 20 minutes 3 times a week find something (running / spinning / circuits / etc) that you like and try to fit it in. I found in banking that dinnertime was a good time to go to the gym unless I was really cranking as most senior people are actually at dinner then so not sending you comments and other juniors are often taking a bit of a break then.
4) Find pleasure in small things, ie having coffee in your apartment on a saturday morning, walking to get a bagel. Focus on really being present for these moments.
5) Reevaluate your expectations for your weekends / lifestyle. Even in a corporate setting, anyone who takes the rain of fire (ie does work that goes to CEO / board level) is going to get emails / do some work afterhours and on weekends (less crazed than banking but still). My lifestyle is much different than some of my friends who dependably get out of work at 4 PM every day and never work weekends – they have the ability to plan elaborate weekends that I do not.
6) Set up mental barriers – my boss in my last job and I used to have a rule, once you press send you force yourself to stop thinking about it. Once something is out of your hands, practice letting go mentally of “what if x or y is wrong / not perfect etc”
I hope you respond OP! I’ve been there and it is a really hard place, but its important to take a step back and try to find a good solution as opposed to just going “eff that I quit”
OP
Thank you so much. Yes I’m in ibanking. At this point though I’m not sure I really want those exit ops so that’s making it even tougher to power through a 2nd year. Not sure if it’s just the hours, but don’t think I love the work even if it were easier hours.
JuniorMinion
Ok. In terms of “exit opps” I know people think of PE as the promised land where all things will be better – but there are a number of corporate / other types of options that can sometimes land you in the same ultimate place (I am old enough to have friends that have come out the other side of PE and many have ended up somewhere in corp dev / strat / finance).
I would say think through where you want to be / what you might enjoy. This could be FP&A / strategy/ M&A at a corporate entity (which will likely be more of a ~50 hour a week commitment) or something like TAS / Valuation work at one of the big 4 (sometimes looked at as “banking lite”). Is it that you don’t like financial analysis or that you just don’t like the BS sales process in banking / stupid pitchwork that is never going to happen? (which largely goes away on the buyside because people don’t waste time on ideas that are never going to work). No one likes putting together salesforce memos / CIMs etc.
For myself I am currently doing M&A on the corporate side. All in total comp (base + bonus + 401k match which is ridiculous at my company) around ~$190k and I average 50 hours at work per week. I get a smattering of things after hours / on the weekend but no one is working until midnight on the regular in the corporate world. I’ve maybe worked until midnight twice in the last 2 years and that was because a live deal was being negotiated.
I’d say work on your mental barriers and just accept that no one in banking (for the most part) really cares about working you into the ground so you have to strategically help your own health out if that makes sense. If you can make it a full year in banking you may have some options and will likely have more options if you start looking after 1.5 years. Happy to talk further if you like – i can be reached at JuniorMinion87 at the mail of the g.
JuniorMinion
Also sorry if this meanders a bit. I’m struggling to convey in writing.
Anon
Some people can with long hours with little physical symptoms, while others go into a deep depression. I am the deep depression type. Took me a long time to stop comparing myself to others. If they can do it, why can’t I? Life is too short. Do what makes you happy.
OP
Thank you. This really helps.
Frozen Peach
Yes, this. It took me realizing my dream job had become “dogwalker” to recognize a horrible case of burnout. I found myself getting grouchily jealous of really inappropriate people (like panhandlers or inmates) for their mental freedom and lack of stress and obligations. (To be clear, this was a huge red flag and definitely not okay or grounded in reality– helped me wake up to how unhappy I was.)
It’s okay to not be like other people. Your only job in this life is to do you. A mental trick that helped me was imagining a wealthy, famous professional X-games dude staring incredulously at my colleagues in suits talking about how CRITICAL every comma was– and being like “dude, I have no idea why that matters, surf’s up!” There are as many definitions of success. If someone tells you theirs is the only right way to be/succeed, I now take that as a clear sign there’s something stinking about their thinking.
OP
Oh my goodness. this is sorta me but not to the same degree. I find myself wishing I were an admin on a daily basis. It’s colored my impression that I don’t even like this type of work. And because of this I was thinking I would like a more operations type role. but now I don’t know if I’m just too burnt out to even figure it out.
JuniorMinion
I used to wish I could be a garbage collector (the guys driving the big green trucks I used to see out the window). Just because they got to be outside all day.
Dahlia
hahahaha. I remember rounding as a mid-level surgical resident and my senior resident looked at an unconscious patient in the ICU and said “I get so jealous looking at them sleeping.”
So inappropriate, but makes me laugh to think of it now.
Anonymous
Dahlia, you really made me laugh today. Thank you.
It keeps you going, and I totally understand the inappropriate humor.
I’m also in medicine.
It reminds me of my friend who is an ICU attending and loves it. She used to say…. “I love the ICU. All of patients are intubated, so I never have to talk to them.”
Rainbow Hair
Before I quit my biglaw job, my favorite thing was my pro bono case — I worked with a great Legal Aid attorney. Anyway, my client got transferred from a facility in town to one like an hour away. There was a time when I had worked overnight, and at like 3 pm the next day, Legal Aid attorney was picking me up to visit client in prison. I came BOUNDING out of the office, just like, huge smile on my face, enjoying the sunshine, skipping to the car, and Legal Aid teased me forever: “I’ve never seen someone so happy to be going to a prison.”
Biglaw was not the right job for me.
AKB
I am not in i-banking, so take this with a grain of salt, but I think that in demanding jobs there are a lot of people who are in the office and look like they are working, but really they are engaging in small talk and internet surfing a good 30% of the time. I don’t think there is anything wrong with this, but I remember thinking that I needed to work, work, work ALL THE TIME because everybody was else was doing it. In reality … they weren’t. Of course, they would *think* they were working 24/7, but an objective observer would disagree. With that in mind, can you take a break in the office to go for walks, deal with life stuff (from your desk), etc.? Can you escape in some form without leaving? I don’t think this is a long term solution, but can help while you are “in it” right now.
OP
Thank you. I’m trying. But mid level team members always emailing me asking when things will be done and coming over to see how it’s going.
We’re also in an open plan so everyone can see your screen all.the.time.
Plus there’s the fear of getting staffer on another project if you appear to be not working.
I get your point though and I am going to try to find ways to do that more. Even if it means stepping into a conference room.
JuniorMinion
Underpromise and overdeliver. Also be sure to let people know stuff like “I need to work through items A-D for x and y first and then I will be able to take a look at what you need me to do” and hold firm on those items. Don’t let people intimidate you into doing their work first because they didn’t plan well / leave enough time for other competing priorities.
MJ
I just wanted to give you a great big hug. A million years ago, I drew the short straw and worked for the worst senior associate in my whole bulge-bracket office, in London. I was known as “The girl who had to work for X.” I didn’t sleep for months–it was a super-great night if I left before midnight, but many nights I worked until two or 4am. I lived in London and saw the sun rise over Tower Bridge as I was driven home, many, many nights. And I had to be back in the office, always, by 9:30am. It was awful. After a while, I didn’t get my period, my eyelashes and eyebrows started falling out, and my hair did too. I didn’t feel stressed moment-to-moment, but the lack of sleep was taking a major toll on my body.
When I was an analyst, I tried very hard to carve out a moment to go outside to grab lunch with my friends–literally–just grab and take it back to my desk. Sometimes my friends and I would have dinner in a conference room for twenty minutes. We would go down to the cafe off the trading floor and grab a coffee (sometimes too many times per day).
I pretty much only got Friday nights off with certainty, and often had no idea what day of the week it was, since I had been working so much. And, on my floor, in the bullpen, after midnight the lights went off automatically after every 15 minutes, so you’d have to walk across the pen and turn them on. AND…not kidding…in the thirty seconds the lights would come off, little mice would come out and start crawling across the cubicles. (THE GLAMOUR!)
Anyway, I got out after a year and was so incredibly glad. I did my year. Of my entire European analyst class, only one person is still in banking. Many are still in finance. A lot of people did their 2-3 years and moved to PE, industry, consulting or off to b-school.
I know this only sort of helps, but that name on my resume opened doors for years, commanded instant respect, helped me get into a top b-school. I have been a master of multi-tasking every since. Even my hardest times in corporate law were not as stressful as banking (SO MUCH YELLING!). Also, because I was in Europe, there were tons of cultural tensions and misunderstandings–the Nordic team was yelling at the M&A execution team was upset at Sponsors, etc.
Anyway, I wanted to give you a HUGE HUG and tell you that it’s going to be OK. Practice self care. Drink heavily when you need to (for us, there was a lot of clubbing super-late night on Friday nights to blow off terrible weeks.) Lean on your analyst class friends.
Start daydreaming about exits. I can tell you–my friends and I literally spent every single Monday morning meeting doodling about our dream jobs. This is just Job 1. You will get out.
Make sure to take a mental health day here and there. If that involves “food poisoning” so be it. Also, we realized that lack of sleep gave us the emotional register of a three year old. Know that if you even get some breathing room, you will do better.
And talk to your staffers and your analyst program managers about possibly reducing your deal load. Who cares if they think you’re not the star in your class, if you don’t want to be the star in your class?
HUGS, girl. Really. It gets better. Start taking concrete steps to get out.
Dahlia
Emotional register of the 3 year old… I love that, and its so true!!
During my residency I would get home from work and cry for the most inane reasons. I would also get SO ANGRY all the time for things I can’t even pinpoint- probably mostly a sense of helplessness and lack of control over my life combined with inadequate sleep. I remember spending years feeling angry.
Once residency finally came to an end I became a much more stable human being.
I know I was in a different field, once where the length of time that I experienced this level of exhaustion and abuse was finite, so I can’t really advise you on the best steps to take. But I can promise you, that whether you choose to power through for a bit longer or to GTFO, this time is finite, life WILL get better, and one day you will be able to look back on this time with a blend of laughter and horror.
IB Anon
Agree with so much of what’s already been said, but want to add from the perspective of someone who has not only been in your shoes (IB analyst, totally wrecked from anxiety) but is part of the minority still in banking 5+ years later – it doesn’t have to be all or nothing. You don’t have to make the choice between being the top of the class or quitting tomorrow. Being an “average” analyst will generally get you through the ~2 year program, and even if you don’t get top bucket for bonus, you’ll still be making quite a lot of money compared to just about any other job you could be doing at this age.
Over time, as you see opportunities, seek to align yourself with one or two more reasonable calling officers and their preferred staff. By being their “go-to” people, you’ll be able to keep from getting staffed by the truly crazy ones. And I know, you’ll get some people who really don’t like you for anything that resembles pushing back. It’s REALLY not worth it to try to please everyone – it definitely bothered me knowing that there were MDs who didn’t think I was a great analyst, but trying to fulfill the most demanding guy’s idea of a great analyst would have pushed me to GTFO and in hindsight, that really wasn’t the only alternative.
Anonymous
Repost from a late day post yesterday — is there any way to clean carpet so it’s sanitized (i.e. antibacterial) without steaming/shampooing? Any dry powder out there that can be vacuumed up? There’s a baby that will crawl on carpet that approximately 1000000 workmen have walked all over, had equipment on so it’d make me feel better to do something besides just vacuum. (I know someone yesterday said that there isn’t bacteria, but I’d like to know if there’s anything else I can do — they came in bc of an AC leak so there was moisture underneath the carpeting which is being dried out now with industrial fans and the carpet pads under will be changed; with that plus everyone with shoes on – it’s kind of gross to have a kid crawl on it).
Anonymous
Baking soda. I’m not the one who said so yesterday, but I agree. You can buy it by the 5lb bag…maybe from costco? But I would just rent a carpet-cleaning machine.
Anonymous
Your concern here shouldn’t be on bacteria or “sanitizing” as much as it should be on yard care related chemicals tracked inside, equipment related chemicals tracked inside, lead tracked in, etc.
Anonymous
Nothing can really sanitize carpets in the way you’re suggesting. What about replacing them?
AnonyM
You recommend replacing carpets because workmen walked on them in boots?
Anonymous
*I* wouldn’t, but for someone who is asking about antibacterial treatments? That might be reasonable.
Baconpancakes
Renting a carpet cleaner sounds like an ordeal, but it’s really not. It’s just a big, awkward vacuum. And some grocery stores even have them right next to the ice by the exit! (Harris Teeter, I think?)
Which actually reminds me, I should probably steam clean my couch. It’s pretty gross.
Anonymous
Why can’t you steam clean the carpet? If the situation is so bad that it requires industrial fans and replacement of the carpet pad, it seems like steam cleaning would be required anyway.
anon
+1
Anonymous
+1. We use Stanley Steemer for carpet cleaning in our area and they do have an option for “sanitize,” which I think is real because they use high-pressure steam, not just chemicals.
What the OP is concerned about is the reason why we replaced our carpet with laminate flooring before our kids started crawling. If the laminate needs to be sanitized, I can do it myself with a steam mop.
Anonymous
No.
Bonnie
There are powders that will make it smell better but not ones that will get rid of bacteria. The padding is the biggest issue and it sounds like that’s already being replaced.
We rent the carpet cleaners occasionally and recently bought one.
Anonymous
And I recommend going to Amazon and buying those disposable slip on blue booties that the doctors wear in the hospitals to keep floors clean in the Operating Room etc.. We keep a bag of those in the house, and if any workperson enters and doesn’t want to take off their shoes, they get the booties.
AnonyM
This is a great idea.
Anonymous
Getting the carpet cleaned is good enough, I would think.
Anon
Let your kid get exposed to some germs. In the long run that’s waaaay better anyway. Don’t freak out about sanitizing everything.
Sanders
Yeah, I just read an article in which a geneticist recommends rolling your baby on the floor of the NY subway, so maybe you should give your baby a chance to crawl around on it before you clean it.
Anonymous
This is really true.
Our babies should eat more dirt.
Blonde Lawyer
The book Epidemic of Absence is all about this. I didn’t read the whole thing but the gist was, they started treating people with autoimmune conditions with whipworms. Once the body had something legit to fight, it stopped attacking itself. Our immune systems need a job. Let them do their job!
Anonymous
Okay all of your HR gurus, I have a question that I’m really on the fence about. Employee A noticed an ACH withdrawal on her bank account for $150 to Cable Company X (she doesn’t use this cable company) with an account # and the name of Employee B. Employee A goes to her manager with this information, who is also Employee B’s manager. Manager asks Employee B about it, who denies knowing anything about it and claims it’s not showing up on her Cable Company X online account. Employee A purchased something from Employee B 6 months ago and gave Employee B a check, so at one time she had her banking info. Manager now goes to HR for help. Is this an HR matter, or something that Employee A & B need to work out on their own? TIA!!
Anonymous
This is a legal matter, Employee B stole Employee A’s financial information. HR should have nothing to do with it unless it’s a company checking account.
Employee A should tell Employee B that she is filing a police report as Employee B stole money and financial information from her.
Anonymous
But I should add this should NOT be a direction from the company in any way shape or form unless company property or company financial information is involved. This is a personal matter and the company should not get involved.
Anonon
I would not include work at all. I could see some well-meaning HR person trying to resolve it, but only seriously muddying what is clear theft/fraud.
DCR
Agreed. Also, Employee A needs to report it to their bank, and probably get a hold on their account/a new checking account number issued. Employee B has shown that they can’t be trusted (or at least at shown a failure to follow through to correct the issue), and Employee A needs to protect themselves going forward.
If I was Employee A, I would also call the Cable Company and complain to them. Less vital then protecting their bank account and the police report, but may have some success since at the end of the day Employee A did not authorize Cable Company X to take money out of their account.
Anonymous
Thanks all, OP here. Employee A of course reported it to her bank immediately and they’re handling it as fraud. Employee A also tried to call the cable company, but they would not talk to her because she’s not the account holder. But now Employee A says she won’t work with Employee B anymore because of this. Now is it an HR matter?
Anonymous
I mean working with people you don’t like is part of life. This is a personal matter and the company needs to maintain that stance. Unless the company has determined that this is an offense that rises to a reason to terminate Employee B, then Employee A is going to have to continue to work with Employee B until one of them gets a new job or is fired.
HR needs to stay out of it other than to follow any procedures/policies they have in place related to the employment of B based on the fraud investigation unrelated to company business.
Anon
Fraud isn’t “not liking someone”. Refusing to work with someone who committed an illegal action against you is entirely reasonable.
Anonymous
Fair! However, HR should only be proceeding/involved in accordance with their policies and procedures. If employee B’s behavior violates those then HR should take the appropriate actions outlined in the policies/procedures.
Anonon
Once the appropriate parties (fraud cops? idk…) are engaged and doing their thing and there’s a formal investigation, then I would loop HR in to let them know because I agree that it’s more than ‘disliking someone’. But HR needs to recognize fully that it’s not their job to investigate in any way. I suspect there is a soft, catch-all phrase in HR policy that deems this type of behavior grounds something penalizing, if not termination.
HR Consultant
Employee A and Employee B should be separated while working if at all possible. These kinds of disputes that have nothing really to do with work are very often triggers for workplace violence incidents. That can mean yelling arguments or fistfights, it doesn’t have to mean a shooting.
Many employees I work with have an ethics policy, or a code of conduct, in their employee handbooks. Very often, those policies include information about what happens if a person is involved in a crime outside of work. Many of my clients will use these policies to terminate employees who are convicted of DWI or domestic violence offenses. Generally, there has to be a direct connection between the offense and the person’s work, i.e., you don’t want someone convicted of DWI doing your delivery driving. You don’t want someone convicted of domestic assault working as a counselor. But I’ve seen extrapolations, and in at-will states they usually hold up if the employee sues.
Bear in mind, employee B has just been accused, and just by the other employee. The company needs to be very cautious about doing anything with employee B that could be considered punitive. Keeping the two separated is a good idea – as long as you don’t do something like cut employee B’s hours, shunt her into a menial job when previously she was a manager, etc.
This is a tough situation. I tell my clients that in situations like this, the goal is to keep everyone safe, including the other employees who aren’t involved in the dispute. That’s priority number one. Everything else will have to be dealt with as the criminal investigation proceeds. Calling a local HR consultant, and probably a lawyer, is a good idea. Good luck.
Anonymous
If she stole it on company property, wouldn’t it be grounds for firing? We fired someone who stole the coffee club money.
Anonymous
I agree that now it’s an HR matter because how can Employee A effectively work with Employee B when she’s pretty confident that she stole from her? I can’t be a coincidence that money was taken out of her account and it just so happened that Employee B’s name is associated with it.
Anonymous
Even if not on company property, this is an HR matter. If B stole from A (wherever it happened), there should be grounds for termination.
Anonymous
I’m due with my first baby early next year and my OBGYN has asked me to pre-pay all her charges, including delivery fees (hospital is separate). It will be a monthly installment plan but the final payment is due by the seventh month. From quick research online, this seems pretty common, but it makes me deeply uncomfortable, both for practical reasons (what if I lose the baby before then, what if I deliver in a different place – barring complications I’ll probably be on work travel through my 30th week so it’s a non-zero possibility) and also for personal ones (I’m from a religious tradition that doesn’t believe in making preparations for the baby in advance, and I plan to largely follow this and not set up a nursery or make anything but bare minimum preparations in advance, and paying months in advance for the delivery makes me uncomfortable for the same reason). The office has assured me that if I don’t deliver or deliver elsewhere I’ll get a refund, but I’ve dealt with hospital billing departments before and I know it’s usually a cumbersome process to get refunds. I can’t imagine having to fight with them to get my money back when I’m mourning a pregnancy loss or trying to take care of a preemie baby in an out-of-state NICU. My work has open enrollment in November, so I also have the option to change insurance for next year and get on a plan that covers more things with a lower deductible and higher premium, but I probably won’t because the premium vs deductible math doesn’t seem to work out for that. But if I did change insurance that would also necessitate recalculating everything and probably refunding me if New Insurance covered more.
When I discussed this with the billing person at my last appointment we couldn’t reach a satisfactory resolution and I asked her to have a higher-up billing person call me and that’s supposed to happen soon – any suggestions for persuading them to let us pay later or is this just a lost cause? I’ve already offered to provide copies of tax returns, bank accounts, HSA accounts (with way, way more than the total expected OB + hospital fees in them) as proof that we can pay this bill easily but the person at my doctor’s office wasn’t satisfied with that.
A friend in healthcare suggested simply not paying the bills because (according to her) they can’t/won’t drop me as a patient, but I’m uncomfortable with that. I’m not a lawyer but I’m in a semi-high-profile profession (in the local community, not nationally) and I don’t want it to become a scandal, and I’m also uncomfortable with the idea of having debt collectors hassling me.
Anonymous
“I can’t prepay delivery fees because of religious reasons.” And insist that they accommodate you. Talk directly to the doctor if you have to.
anon
First, on the bluntly practical side: This is a very normal, common practice and you will have a tough time fighting it. And not to get too grim, but if you did have a pregnancy loss/stillborn, you would still have a delivery to pay for.
I say this gently, but you seem very anxious and are coming to some catastrophic conclusions. It may be worth exploring that a bit more.
OP
I know I would have to pay for a delivery of a stillborn baby but I have to start paying these bills before I’m out of my first trimester and you may not have to pay anything if you miscarry that early.
I actually feel very calm and not anxious about this pregnancy. I have friends that are calling their doctor every day to say “Can I eat this? Can I do that?” and that’s not me at all. These worst case scenarios aren’t causing me fear or keeping me awake at night but I am well aware they are small possibilities and object to pre-paying partly for that reason. Maybe that makes me cynical or something but I don’t think it’s anxiety.
This may be a common practice in OB offices but I have never been asked to pre-pay a medical bill months in advance of reviving the services (and in the calendar year prior to when services will probably be rendered) so it was a shock. I appreciate the practical advice that this is common.
OP
*receiving the services
Anonymous
Not related to OB services, but I had to prepay for a surgery I had earlier this year.
Bonnie
Either prepay or find a different OB. I understand your religious reasons but it’s not fair to ask the doctor to front the costs and it’s pretty standard practice.
Marilla
That is one of the weirdest things I’ve ever heard of. (Obligatory obnoxious Canadian comment, sorry.)
Anon
I’m American, and I agree that this is so strange – and while I’ve heard of it before, it hasn’t been how either of the practices I delivered with worked.
“Fronting the cost” (ie, the patient doesn’t pay until she gets a bill, usually weeks later) is standard practice for almost all medical services, because of the insanity of insurance billing. OBs can deal with it like every other doctor’s office does.
Anonymous
This must be common practice in an area of the country I’m not in, because no one I know has ever had to prepay for OB services so that the payment is complete by the 7th month. When I was pregnant, my doctor billed my insurance for doctor’s visits and tests, and I paid copays. We prepaid the hospital admitting copay for the delivery, but weren’t billed for the coinsurance until after I delivered. Prepaying for a delivery sounds bonkers to me. My delivery got very complicated at the last minute and I ended up needing two OBs from my practice, a neonatologist and a newborn pulmonary specialist in the room when I delivered. How can a prepayment account for something like that?
Anonymous BigLaw Associate
Yeah, I have not heard of this either. I didn’t have to pre-pay anything when I gave birth to my kids. Billing/insurance worked for that just like any other medical visit/procedure. Maybe this is regional, or practice dependent. Maybe this depends on your insurance as well (i.e., whether you have a high deductible plan or not)?
Anonymous
+1 from fellow Canadian.
AnonymousCanuck
Me three.
I am sure we are very obnoxious, but I can’t help but o_O at this :(
Cornellian
I’m American and have also never heard of this, unless you’re choosing to go with a ritzy practice that just doesn’t accept insurance.
Two Cents
+ 1
Anonymous
I live in the U.S., and for about the past ten years various doctors’ offices and hospitals have asked consistently asked me to prepay what they think I’ll owe after insurance, for pre-planned procedures but not for unexpected illnesses. This almost inevitably results in overpayment, and getting a refund is a huge hassle.
Anonymous
I refuse to prepay. They can’t refuse you services if you have insurance and agree to pay any amount not covered; at least they can’t in my state. The last time I went in for a mammogram, they asked me to prepay $200 of the cost that they said insurance “may not” cover. I had read my policy and knew insurance was going to cover the whole thing. I refused to pay anything but the copay, and when the receptionist got snippy with me, I just asked to speak to the mamography center’s billing manager. She shut up.
Sure enough, when I got my insurance statement from the mammogram, no balance was owed. If I had prepaid I would be out $200 while I waited for the practice to refund me.
Sam
Delivered twice in the US and this never happened to me.
Find a different OB. I would not want to do this either, for the reasons you mentioned.
Anon
What??? How is the doctor fronting the costs? And how would that be different from any other medical procedure? I’ve never had a baby, but I’ve also never prepaid for any kind of medical care I’ve received, even scheduled-way-in-advance surgery.
Walnut
These policies vary by provider and hospital. I did not prepay anything with either of my two pregnancies. The provider billed insurance as services were provided along the way. If your provider will not budge on preparing, you may need to find someone else. It’s also worth finding out if the hospital you plan to deliver at has similar policies.
Anonymous
+1
I see your point, but unfortunately the doctor has the right to ask this now. You can always choose another doctor that does not require this. Most likely the doctor has no control over this at all, and it is decided by higher ups, so try not to blame the doctor too much.
You will get your money back if cost is different ultimately.
And I agree that whatever happens with your pregnancy you will have costs that must be paid to this doctor. I’d look at the prepayment like having the doc on retainer. In that way it does not conflict with your religious beliefs. Because that is what it truly is.
I’m sorry this is so stressful for you. Is this financially difficult for you? Or is anxiety a big issue for you?
CHJ
This is what I thought was standard practice too. (I’ve had two pregnancies). The office bills insurance, and anything that insurance doesn’t cover gets billed directly to you. That’s how all of my medical bills have worked, not just maternity care. How do you get insurance to pay for it (or credit your deductible) if you prepay for the services?
Honestly, I would look for a different OB. Even if this is a common practice, it seems like an administrative nightmare and you don’t need that.
Anonymous
I think my OB was like this but I said that I was going to use flex spending $ to pay for this and somehow that made it all after-birth billing that was OK. Maybe try that (even if you’ll just pay from your checking account and not flex spending)?
Also, OB doctor expenses are just that. The hospital expenses will be on top of that, as will any anesthesia, etc. (those doctors bill separately). So it’s just all bills + newborn + no sleep when you get home from the hospital. And poop. Lots of poop.
Blonde Lawyer
I’ve never been pregnant but I was just thinking, I pay my medical bills with my FSA and that requires services to be rendered before I can use the money.
anon
My OB asked me to pre-pay as well for my twin’s delivery. I use an HSA and told them I was unable to pull funds out of the HSA until I had the receipt in hand for the exact amount because I can’t put the money back in and not receive an HSA withdrawal tax form showing the original amount. I sent the billing person an HSA statement showing that I had $12k in my HSA and stated that I would pay the bill in full immediately when I received it after delivery. I think their main concern is all the people with high-deductible plans that can’t pay the huge amounts due. I appreciated that they worked with me and I would’ve considered going elsewhere if they didn’t.
SC
This is common practice, to some extent, and you may have a hard time fighting it. Talk to the doctor, not just a billing person. Tell them that you can’t prepay for religious reasons. Don’t go into all the practical, “what if I need a refund??” reasons that really apply to everyone. (Plus, implying that the doctor’s office might not refund you is a little insulting. YMMV, of course, but my doctor’s office handed me a refund check for a few hundred dollars at my 6-week post-natal appointment without me asking.)
If there’s a compromise available within your religious belief system (e.g., paying a certain percentage by 7 or 8 months), offer that. If not, just ask your doctor to confirm coverage with your insurance and to bill you after the birth. If they won’t, you may need to switch doctors, and it may be helpful to ask people within your religious tradition for referrals to doctors who will work with you on this.
Anonymous
This is blowing my mind. I had no idea you had to prepay – how does your insurance cover something that hasn’t happened yet?
Anonymous
They give you an estimated cost that is based on a standard v-delivery and what your insurance will cover. If you have complications (including an epidural or C section) you’ll get a supplemental bill afterwards. Usually the estimated cost is less than the total not more.
Anonymous
Ha, your insurance *won’t* cover something that hasn’t happened yet. . . this is a just a way to extract money from private citizens to bolster the doctors’ financials.
Anonymous
It sure seems like it to me! If I was the OP, I would just find another OB. I don’t have the time or patience to deal with a doctor who thinks they’re too fancy to handle billing my insurance.
Blonde Lawyer
The way I read it, they still bill insurance after the fact. You just prepay the amount they estimate you will owe. I still think it is bonkers though.
NYNY
Has the office presented you with an itemized statement for the services? Most prenatal services and delivery are bundled into a single claim to the insurance company, with separate billing for a few prenatal tests. The office should know upfront what your cost-sharing will be, based on their contract with your insurance company. But if they haven’t provided the services yet, collecting is a bit of a grey area. Really, they can only collect a deposit until the actual charges exist. Would you feel more comfortable giving them a deposit than calling it a prepayment?
Anonymous
I would ask for an accommodation based on religious grounds, but fwiw I had a similar prepay situation but ended up delivering at a different hospital due to complications. I had no trouble getting the appropriate refund.
Anon
My OB practice has this policy only if my insurance wouldn’t cover my OB/etc. charges. My insurance covers it, therefore I pay nothing. So it may be an insurance issue and you may need to find a provider that works with your insurance.
Jen
I”ve worked in billing. This is truely par for the course for OB/GYN. However usually the insurance is the one footing the bill early on and you should get the patient liability portion billed later.
When you talk to the rep, could you ask to pay in installments? This often happens on the hospital side, and if you do something like a credit check + commitment to installments that are roughly in line with the cost per visit, they might go for it. But it’s a billing/ accounting nightmare on their end, which is why you’re receiving such pushback- this stuff gets billed as a global bundle (which is one code and one charge) and you’re asking to split it out.
OP
UPDATE: I talked to the more senior billing person and worked it out to pay ~40% of the bill in monthly payments before delivery and the remaining 60% after. The 40% is what she said translates to the cost of the monthly office visits, and I’m fine paying for each visit when I go in. Thanks for the advice.
To clarify, the total bill they initially presented me with is their estimate of what I will owe after insurance. They absolutely accept my insurance and are factoring in what my insurance will pay. I do have a high deductible health plan (I chose this because my employer pays 100% of the premiums for it), which means I probably owe more than many people because my insurance won’t really “kick in” until I meet my $2500 deductible. But my employer generously funds an HSA for me, and because I’ve had basically no healthcare expenses for 10+ years and it never expires, I have about 10 times the cost of the total bill currently sitting in my HSA. I still wished I lived in Canada though.
Anonymous
Wow – you have really great insurance. I am kind of surprised you let this rile you up so.
Signed,
an self-employed woman on an Obamacare plan, and grateful to have it.
No HSA account. No benefits.
I pay $500 a month premium for the cheapest Obamacare Bronze PPO plan in my state with a $6500 deductible and then it pays 80% until I meet my max out of pocket for the year. So essentially my insurance pays for NOTHING except my yearly physical stuff until I have paid $12,500 a year.
And none of the “good” hospitals in my city accept ANY Obamacare plan anymore. Not one. So you should see what I am left with…..
But I am still grateful to have it, and fearful for Trumpcare.
You guys with benefits….. I hope you know how good you have it.
OP
I do know how good I have it and I hope it didn’t sound like I was complaining about my insurance. My insurance is great and my reasons for not wanting to pay for delivery in advance have nothing to do with my insurance. I added the info about insurance in response to questions from other people who seemed to think my doctor was asking me to pay the entire bill and forego submitting a claim to insurance, which is not the case. I still think this billing practice is odd, but nowhere near as odd as asking a patient who has health insurance to pay the entire bill (including the portion the insurance will cover) upfront.
Loft alternatives?
OK, I have a closet full of Loft pants because they fit me better than anything else. The Marisa fit works surprisingly well for my full hips and thighs. Plus, they’re available in tall sizes and the price is right. My issue is that some pairs don’t seem to hold up great over time. Either the hems fall out, or the color fades despite careful laundering. Has anyone found pants similar to the Marisa fit, but in a higher quality fabric? Or do I need to accept that Loft’s pants are good for about a year of wear before I need to retire them? They’re still wearable, but they don’t look as crisp/sharp, if that makes sense.
C
Following because Loft works so well for my pear shape, but I just don’t love their quality!
anon a mouse
I have re-hemmed my pants. It’s a pain but relatively minor.
For washing, I wash in cold water only, with either woolite for darks or clorox 2 to help boost the color. And I also just accept that they are not forever pants (and thankfully they are not priced like forever pants).
pugsnbourbon
I’ve had the best luck, quality-wise, with the “editor” pants. They’re a heavier-weight fabric and with washing gentle cycle on cold, they’re going on year 2. Another pair of ponte pants are already pilling after less than a year, so it may just be a matter of fabric.
Honestly though I wear black pants so frequently that if I get a year of wear out of a pair, I’m pretty happy. I don’t buy super expensive pants because I’m clumsy.
anon
I have a few pairs of Editors. My main gripe with them is that the sizing is inconsistent. One pair is literally 1.5 inches bigger in the waist than another pair (same size and style).
You’re probably right that I should lower my expectations! The price point of Express/Loft is about right for me because of size/shape fluctuations that have become way too common in my 30s.
Anonymous
I similarly am happy with Loft pants fit (but Julie for curves). I have several pairs of the skinny ankle pant, which is actually a pretty decent weight fabric and are suitable for work for me.
I have all dark colors (black, navy, wine). And I wash as little as possible. I wear multiple times, always hang up carefully at the crease after wearing and sometimes spot clean. And when I wash, I wash inside out, with Woolite for darks, on a cold gentle cycle in a front loader washer. I carefully hang dry, re-creasing.
Anonymous
And yes, I have re-hemmed one pair of these pants myself, by hand.
PolyD
Cold water, hang dry. Also, buy lots of pants so you don’t have to wash any individual pair too often! I’m serious – I mean, Loft has 40%-50% off sales all the time – just buy more pants.
Lately I like the Old Navy Pixie pants, although I wouldn’t call them high quality. But they’ll do. I’m usually a 2 in the Loft Julie pants and I get the Pixies in a… 4 or 6, sorry, I can’t remember right now.
I’ll also use this opportunity to say that I don’t buy Loft pants as much because they all seem to have those stupid side slant pockets that make me look incredibly hippy. I know I can have them sewed shut, but the line still isn’t as nice as pants with the top entry pocket (like on jeans). That’s a big reason why I switched to the Pixie pants.
Anonymous
Talbots. I like the Raleigh fit but not sure if they’re still making them. I did get some cotton ones similar to Julie fit but heavier cotton. I would stay away from the double-weave and the other fits that are blends – I found that the double-weave were super clingy and the cotton blends stretch maybe a whole size.
lost academic
Cold wash, hang/lay flat to dry, and my Loft/Limited pants of this type are holding up well after 2+ years. I think they’ll keep going, too. I try not to wash them too often and hang them up by the cuffs as soon as I take them off.
Makeup Mom
How were you first introduced to makeup? My mom didn’t wear much makeup, so when I was about 15 she took me to her friend who sold Mary Kay and the friend showed me the basics of a skincare and makeup routine. As those products gradually ran out, I experimented with various other kinds of makeup and skincare on my own.
I’ve been trying to determine how I’d like to introduce my own daughter to makeup. Would you recommend going to a Sephora or mall counter? Or teaching her on my own. FWIW I’m not a makeup expert by any means and my daughter’s coloring is very different from mine so there’d probably be some trial and error with foundation shades etc.
Anonymous
I started buying makeup as a teenager when my friends did at CVS. Personally I’m not buying makeup for my daughter and essentially unemployed people shouldn’t be shopping at Sephora anyway!
Anonymous
I disagree, I wish my mother had been more aware and involved in teaching me things like makeup, how to shave my legs, bras, boyfriends, periods, etc. Her bury the head in the sand approach wasn’t really helpful, and probably exemplifies her method of parenting and why we aren’t close today.
And I don’t think there’s anything wrong with teens shopping at Sephora, how do you know the daughter doesn’t have a part-time job? Why do you assume she’s unemployed? Or maybe saves her allowance/babysitting money? Or got a gift card? Or that her mom just wants her to wear better quality stuff?
anon
I agree with 10:27. My mom helped a little bit with makeup, when I was interested, but was absolutely no help with anything else female-related — because she wanted to pretend it wasn’t happening and that I wasn’t growing up and interested in those things. It absolutely hurt our relationship, for a variety of reasons.
I also don’t get the hand-wringing over Sephora. It’s just makeup. Pricey makeup, yes, but that doesn’t make it inherently bad and at least you get to try before you buy! I’ve wasted more money at the drugstore on makeup than Sephora.
Sanders
+1
Anonymous
My mom was never super girly or into makeup, so I learned most of that stuff on my own from magazines. But when I was around 13 she took me to a Clinique counter and bought me a good basic set of makeup. These days I’m sure your daughter will learn from instagram and other social media so I wouldn’t worry too much on how to introduce her to makeup.
Sephora might be really overwhelming for a complete beginner because there’s just so much going on.
anon
My mom also started me at the Clinique counter. Clinique has a full line of makeup and skincare, including sunscreen options. I’d also suggest helping her develop a good skincare routine since makeup can make skin problems worse.
BabyAssociate
This is what my mom did too!
Anon
Same here! My mom started me with some basics from the Clinique counter (concealer, lip gloss, mascara) and then I’ve figured it out on my own since then. My mom isn’t too much of a makeup person, but it was nice to have somewhere to start.
Cat
Mine too! It was a Christmas present when I was in 7th grade (12.5yo). They did a really good job.
Anon in NYC
My mom did the same.
SC
Yep, definitely went to the Clinique counter. I recently suggested my mom do the same for her 14-year-old niece.
lawsuited
+1 My mum also took me to the Clinique counter. The focus was on skincare, so I got a 3-step system and sunscreen, plus a concealer and a mascara.
I agree that Sephora might be overwhelming, so I’d take her to a department store counter or standalone store, but one that has skin care and makeup options so that she values good skincare from the start. Clinique is perfect for this because they have such a wide variety of skincare and makeup options and a reasonable price point, but Benefit, Bobbi Brown, Clarins or Lancome could work as well.
RKT
If you ask at a Nordstrom, they have certain beauty folks who are not tied to a particular brand, so that they can help you select from anything in the beauty area depending on what’s right for you. Nordstrom carries all the major brands (MAC, Clinique, etc.) but also some other companies that might be better for your daughter in one way or another. I didn’t know about the service until recently, so thought it was worth mentioning.
Anonymous
My mom got me shisheido sunscreen starting in my teen years. For your teen daughter, a good facial sunscreen/moisturizer with sunscreen and face washes are good starting points. I added my own experiments with wet n wild from the drugstore and that was fun. My mom also got me some Clinique stuff as I got older.
New Jersey in the 80s was a wonderful thing
Merle Norman “makeover” at the mall, including a lovely lavender eyeshadow, for the win
And that horrible kissing potion lip gloss.
PolyD
I may have seen you there, Jersey.
Don’t forget the vaguely orange blush, no matter what your skin tone.
Gym, Tan, Laundry
Oh, the stuff that make up companies now push as Bronzer? I had a pot of that stuff (it looked like a genie bottle, sort of) in a loose powder that maybe came from Revlon. Revlon was what I bought if I was feeling spendy. Otherwise, Wet’N’Wild all the way. Or Bonne Belle.
Jers
Oh, we were all there together. I bought the brow sealer because it was the only thing I could afford. I looked like an extra from 9 to 5 when I walked out of there.
anon
Oh my goodness. Yes. Freaking Merle Norman for my 13th birthday. The person there sold me lipgloss that was kind of orange. The first time I put it on, my mom laughed at me and told me I looked like a clown. I didn’t wear anything on my lips for 20 years after that. I just started wearing lipstick two months ago. I’m 33. Traumatic.
pugsnbourbon
Does she want to wear makeup?
My mother wears no makeup, ever, so I got interested in makeup when my friends started wearing it. I remember using a VERY bright silver liquid eyeshadow from Jane … a lot. And $2 frosted lip gloss. But that’s part of the fun of being a teenager.
nutella
These are two different questions for me. We were first introduced to makeup for costumes. My mom would let us wear red lipstick as a clown, etc. But actual makeup that we wore I would steer clear from Sephora (and I LOVE Sephora!) It’s just a little much for dipping your toe in. Your daughter probably doesn’t need foundation. Go to a counter that has more neutral makeup (Bobbi Brown is a favorite – she has a book on teen makeup I believe, or Laura Mercier, Clinique, etc.) and have them teach your daughter how to do basics – eye shadow, eye liner, blush, and concealer where necessary. Your daughter is probably already familiar with lip gloss. (And I mean basic eye makeup, not 25-minute cut-creases – if your daughter is later into that, there are plenty of tutorials on you tube for that!) They will often be able to guide your daughter on skincare, too, that is “outside of the brand” i.e. recommend a salicylic acid wash, eye makeup remover, moisturizer/spf, etc. as well as a regimen on these, which can be as basic as ‘wash your face before bed’ whether you wear makeup or not.
Anonymous
Not OP, but thank you for pointing out the Bobbi Brown book! This looks perfect for my tween.
To OP: My daughter got interested in makeup at what I thought was a ridiculously early age because some of her friends were wearing it to school. I decided it was better to have her learn about makeup gradually and in an age-appropriate way than to let her learn from her friends in the school bathroom and at slumber parties. I started by giving her lip gloss and clear mascara and teaching her the safety rules for eye makeup–don’t share, replace every 3 months, etc. She is currently allowed to wear these on special occasions only, but not to school. This has satisfied her for the time being–she can now participate in the conversations about makeup and have fun reapplying her lip gloss with the other girls at parties and events. As she gets older, I plan first to allow her to start wearing the clear mascara and lip gloss to school, then to introduce her to other products as she becomes interested and as the need arises.
I don’t think Sephora is the best place for a beginner or for someone who doesn’t know exactly what products she’s interested in. The sales reps tend to favor a very heavy-handed look. If you want someone to put together a full makeup look for your daughter and teach her how to apply it, I’d stick with the Bobbi Brown, Clinique, or Laura Mercier counter at a high-end department store. You can give the salesperson some parameters to work with–e.g., a natural look that’s appropriate for school, concealing uneven skin tone and acne, etc.
And no matter what you do, get her in the habit of wearing sunscreen on all exposed skin every day.
Snick
My approach was to stay out of the way and let my daughter figure it out for herself, which she appreciated. I got her basic skincare products (cleanser, sunscreen) from age 11 or so. She started buying inexpensive cosmetics with her “own” money at around age 12 and enjoyed experimenting with different looks with her friends. They all learned from YouTube makeup videos. Now that she’s a bit older (16) she recommends products for me. She’s way more on top of the trends than I am.
Bra shop recs in Seattle
Maybe this is a cultural thing but unless your Daughter specifically asked, why would you want a teen putting on makeup, apart from sunscreen? I’d educate her on waxing/hair removal (her choice to do it or not though), personal hygiene, periods, etc but why makeup?
Anonymous
What’s wrong with a teen girl wearing makeup? It doesn’t turn her into a harlot or anything.
Anonymama
Nothing wrong with it, but also not necessary or required, and many adult women don’t wear it at all. Maybe more akin to getting hair dyed/highlighted, less comparable to basic skincare.
anon
My mom wears makeup, but has always done so in a really minimal way. I don’t think she would’ve been able to teach me much about technique, or choosing colors, because our coloring is quite different. She took me to a Clinique counter before my junior prom. I remember that we bought a few essentials and then recreated the rest with drugstore products, which weren’t nearly as good in the mid-’90s as they are now. Before that, it was a lot of trial and error on my part.
I would definitely recommend taking your daughter to a Sephora or Ulta type place where she can try a bunch of different formulations and figure out what works best. They’ll also teach her some basics about technique. There are so many YouTube beauty channels that can help beginners (or not-so-beginners!).
Anonymous
We used to play makeover probably starting around age 10/11 with kids’ makeup sets until maybe 16. I would get drugstore makeup with babysitting money or an Aunt would give me a Covergirl palette or something for my birthday, plus there was a lot of stealing stuff from my mom. We all had those tiny Avon lipstick samples in our kaboodles, as well. I think I did get a couple makeup counter makeovers with my mom for fun. I’m sure these days if your daughter is interested in makeup, she’ll be all over youtube. I’d take her to ulta or target if she expresses interest, otherwise just let her do her thing.
NYNY
As a dancer, my introduction to makeup was stage makeup, and I learned to dial it down from there. I also read all of my mom’s women’s magazines, so I had my own ideas about what makeup should look like.
Not a mom, but I would think about what lessons you want your daughter to learn. I would prioritize skincare first, including protecting it with sunscreen (and as mom, you have to model that behavior). After that, makeup is an option, but never required. Teach her some basics if she’s interested, and take her somewhere inexpensive to start. If she wants Sephora-level stuff, that’s what her money is for. Or birthday/holiday presents. But best for her not to start expensive habits she can’t keep up.
Rainbow Hair
Woah I’m feeling weird because I totally let my two year old play with makeup. I have some old blushes and she loves to use the brushes to put pink on her arms and legs, and I let her use some of those big crayon-like eye pencils to draw all over herself. If she asks, I’ll draw a heart or the first letter of her name on her arm. She asked for lipstick this weekend, so I put some of my (super cool!) NYX dark purple stuff on her mouth, because purple is her favorite color. She loved looking at in the mirror for a few minutes, then I showed her how to wipe it off with a water wipe.
One of my goals is to not make it weird. It’s a thing I do because I like to: “Mommy likes makeup, sometimes. Do you like makeup? I like to put sparklies on my eyes.” I don’t gender it, and I certainly don’t make it a “have to” thing. My husband lets her put blush on his hairy legs when she asks.
She doesn’t have the coordination to put/keep that stuff on her face (and frankly, I’d like to research the ingredients more thoroughly before we go that way), but I don’t see anything wrong with it being completely un-mysterious, a thing mom likes to do, like eating goat cheese and baking and painting nails and tie dying etc.
Anonymous
I have been 100% against my 4yo daughters having anything to do with makeup, but I think there’s something valuable in your approach of playing with and demystifying it. thanks for giving me food for thought.
Anonymous BigLaw Associate
I actually think Sephora is a good idea since there are many price points. I would talk to your daughter about what different products are used for, and what she is interested in trying out.
As a starter, I’d suggest something like tinted moisturizer (instead of foundation), a nude eyeshadow palette, blush, powder, a multipurpose face brush, an eyeshadow brush, mascara, and lip gloss (not sure how I feel about true lipstick to start with). Eyeliner is hard to get right, so that might be for once she gets the other things down. I really wouldn’t skip the brushes-it makes good application so much easier. Highly recommend the Too Faced retractable Kabuki-can be used for blush and powder (and even foundation once she gets t o that point).
You could also get some things at Sephora or Clinique, and others at a drug store. If I were going to skimp, I’d get cheaper eyeshadow and blush.
Anon
Your daughter will learn from her friends, not you. Mine is 16 now. I wasted money buying her nice stuff but she doesn’t use it and wears whatever her friends like. Fortunately it’s pretty low-end. She likes Maybelline mascara. And everyone is obsessed with Glossier so I just gave her a gift card for there and let her pick (which I believe she crowd sourced on Snapchat)
Miss
My mom also never wore makeup and I was obsessed with makeup from an early age (used to call chapstick lipstick). I was on my own on learning about makeup for the most part. I checked out a bunch of books from the library. I learned some from friends (who all wore very heavy foundation and the typical terribly applied makeup that most teenagers wear). My favorite books (that I still have) are by Kevyn Aucoin (RIP). Today there are tons of YouTube videos that talk about makeup and skincare.
As far as makeup goes, my mom had a rule that we could wear one new thing for each year of middle school. So one piece of makeup in 7th grade, 2 in 8th, 3 in 9th, etc. I think she gave up counting by 10th grade. And it prevented me from taking forever each morning applying a full face of makeup. Skincare was not restricted and I have great skin now because I religiously applied SPF. I was also allowed to wear any nail polish I wanted and frequently gave myself manicures. My mom humored me by taking me to the mall (Trade Secrets because we didn’t have Sephora) but didn’t foot the bill or ever show any interest in makeup. She thought my obsession was shallow and silly at the time, but fast forward several years and I’ve been doing her makeup for special events for ages.
Eeertmeert
Definitely 2nding the skincare + makeup play with her. Getting concealer, gloss/colored balm, mascara (clear or not) is fun and creative. She doesnt have to pile it on :)
Re:Sephora, please remind her that the testers get used by lots of people. Avoiding putting the lip products on her lips could avoid sharing germs from who knows who. Saying this because i worked there and have seen ladies with obvious cold sores using the testers…
Bra shop recs in Seattle
Seattle ladies, where should I go to buy strapless bras? I’m a 28gg UK size, think that’s 28DDD/D US size.
Thanks in advance
Pompom
That’s a US J.
The bigger the UK cup size, the deeper in the alphabet the US size will be.
Buy them online, try them on, and return as needed. Linda’s in NYC has an online presence and will carry hard to fit sizes. May want to try a longline at that band/cup combo.
Anon
Yup, not a 28DDD – this one is amazing and on Prime https://www.amazon.com/Curvy-Kate-Strapless-Multiway-Biscotti/dp/B00H1M1BK8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1500994375&sr=8-1&keywords=curvy%2Bkate%2Bstrapless%2Bbra&th=1&psc=1
Nudibranch
You can find nice UK brand bras on Amazon. It helps to know your size and preferred brand/s.
CountC
Just a happy story for this Tuesday morning . . .
I adopted a new pup over the weekend – an older tripod with some vision issues. He’s supposedly a Chihuahua, but I think the also has a bit of rat terrier in him. He’s got these gigantic ears, so I named him Radar. He is ridiculously cute and showed me that he is perfectly capable of jumping up and down off the couch on his own, thank you very much!!
His foster instilled some bad habits, but he is learning quickly and already showing improvement.
He is totally different from my last senior pup, but in a way that’s a good thing because I wasn’t trying to replace my last pup.
Any other good weekend stories out there!?
Bonnie
Awww. It consistently amazes me how animals with tough backgrounds are sweethearts.
Anonymous
Me too! The new pup is super friendly. We had a meet and greet with the pet sitter last night and he also got to meet my bf. He is a total ham and was doing little tricks, rolling over for belly rubs, and depositing himself right into my bf’s lap!
CountC
Grrrr – this is me CountC
Baconpancakes
Yay, puppers! (All dogs are puppies.) Best wishes for your new addition!
Anonymous
Yayyy!!! I got my “mature” (not quite senior, but middle age+) chihuahua-Italian greyhound mix almost 3 years ago and she makes me so dang happy every day. Dogs are THE BEST. Congratulations to you and Radar!
lsw
Yay! I think I remember you talking about this a few days/weeks ago? I remember someone made me misty, remembering my senior pup. Congrats!
CHS
Love the name! Sounds like a great pup. Whenever I see a tripod I think of this exchange on an episode of Louie between him and one of his friends who has a tripod:
“Look at this dog.”
“What’s its name?”
“Doesn’t have a name. How many legs does it have?”
“Three.”
“The answer is it has plenty of legs.”
So, so true.
Anonymous
We just adopted a 10 year old cat. It’s hard to believe he’s been confined to a few square feet for four months, as he has really come to own the house. He comes to be spooned in the middle of the night but doesn’t stay long.
Anonymous
My weekend story – I (finally) got to see Hamilton (Chicago). Bought the tickets last November and a group of friends and I went. Had an amazing dinner at Cochon Volant (if anyone needs a Chicago dinner recommendation).
Baconpancakes
A good friend of mine is getting married over Labor Day, and since her bridal party consists of her brother, she invited me to come to the salon to get my makeup done with her. The only time I’ve had my makeup done professionally was for my Bat Mitzvah. Aside from the value of spending time with my friend, is it worth the $80?
Anonymous
I say no. I’ve had my makeup done professionally twice and hated it both times. I thought I looked like a complete clown. Can you keep your friend company at the salon without getting your makeup done? My salon let my bridesmaids accompany me even though they were doing their own makeup (but we were all getting our hair done there, so maybe slightly different).
Anony Mouse
+1 Before my wedding, I did a make-up trial run with my hair stylist. She did a nice job, but it didn’t look like me at all, so I opted to do my own make-up.
Anonymous
You could just go hang out with her while she has her makeup done, or have another salon service (nails? hair?).
Baconpancakes
I would get my hair done but it’s a specialty makeup salon. If it makes any difference, the wedding is in an extremely hot place where normal makeup is likely to slide right off. That’s the only thing that has me waffling a bit – I’m normally ok with my makeup coming off by the end of the night, but I do want to look nice in at least some photos.
Bra shop recs in Seattle
Would you have to pay? If she is inviting you, I’d assume it’s her treat.
Not American, though, so I may be totally wrong…..
Anon in NYC
Eh, I would do it. I wouldn’t ordinarily pay to have my makeup done for a wedding but I don’t think $80 is an outrageous sum of money, and I would want to spend the time with my good friend on her wedding day.
Baconpancakes
If I decide not to get the makeup done they will still let me hang out at the salon with her, it’s just less fun/bonding to just sit there waiting.
Anonymous
Not really….
Maybe if you were in the bridal party and would be in pictures. The over-made up, professional look does often work well in pictures. I guess if the bride would appreciate it for bonding, so she wouldn’t be alone, you could…. but I would use the time to get some basic pointers on a simple make-up routine for your face.
The only time I have had my make-up done professionally was when I was a bridesmaid. It was crazy over the top, in my opinion, but I looked like a completely different person …. and like a model. Or at least, a model…. prostitute. It was the only time in my life when people stared at me and older men called me beautiful and asked …. who is that?!? And it just made me feel bad, as in real life men totally ignore me.
Anonymous
I don’t think it’s worth it, but it’s still fun to see what someone else does with your face.
Anon
I would go! I’d also specify to the makeup artist what kind of look I was going for (smoky eye or natural look or heavy on the eyes but a nude lip or whatever you want) so it’s more in line with your taste/expectations. Since they’re pros, they’ll be able to accommodate whatever it is that you’d want and ensure that it all stays put through heat/tears/whatever the day may have. They’re also used to doing makeup for cameras so it may seem a little bold in real life but will photograph well and look less intense in photos.
Never too many shoes...
I love getting my makeup done, so I would say yes for sure!
DARE
I’d do it. Mostly for spending time with a really good friend but also out of curiosity because it isn’t something I’d do normally. If it looks “not like you” it doesn’t really matter because you’re not in the wedding/pics/etc. and if it does look awesome you’ve learned something new and maybe get some new facebook pics out of it.
Baconpancakes
Hmm, I just found out I don’t have to pay for my hair, so I think I’ll go for it! Thanks!
Anon
I would look at it as more of a gift to your friend then just paying for services rendered.
afdbsde
I vividly remember hanging out with a good friend immediately before her wedding in (~2002). Fast forward 15 years we live 400 miles apart and the marriage didn’t last but it was a really meaningful few minutes for us. We’re still in touch and she’s still one of my best friends. I’d do it for memories.
Cleaning in Houston
Posted too late the other day…Does anyone have a rec on a reasonable cleaning person/service in the Houston area (central). I have a lady now and she’s perfectly nice, but she routinely forgets to do major items. Like one time she didn’t clean the downstairs bathroom for two cleans in a row because it’s rarely used, but should be cleaned more than once every 6 seeks. This last time, I don’t think she swept or mopped the main floor or stairs; there were literally hairballs floating on my steps from my pets. I’m tired of giving specific instructions on such basic things like “make sure you unload the dishwasher, please mop the wood floors every time you come”.
Anonymous
I’ve been happy with Morehands.
Anonymous
I am wondering if anyone on this board has had any experience with using donor eggs. We are coming to the end of the road in terms of fertility treatments involving my own eggs, and I think we’ll be moving on to donor eggs soon. Does anyone have any experiences or resources to share? This would be a second pregnancy so I already feel very lucky we were able to have our first child through fertility treatments (that time with my eggs).
anon
A good friend is currently pregnant with a donor egg. Her prep was as intense, if not moreso, than IVF, because you have to force-sync both the donor timing and the recipient.
The main thing they thought about, and did some counseling for, was how forthright to be with their family and how to handle the biological aspect with the child. They have one child and there is the aspect of the children potentially not looking similar, but also any medical issues down the road. They also had to figure out how to message things to their family (especially family members who might not be as understanding about why to do that instead of “letting God decide”).
Once she was pregnant, as best I can tell it’s a normal, healthy pregnancy.
Anonymous
Thanks for responding. I think we would be very forthright with our child (I’ve read that that is important) but I’m not sure about anything else really! Fortunately, my family is very supportive, but I hate the idea of anyone treating this child differently than our first child. You get so many comments of “he looks so much like you!” whether he does or not but I’m not sure I want everyone to know we used a donor egg if they’re going to treat the baby differently (subconsciously or otherwise) — or to know before our child does, etc. Hoping to find some good resources to think through some of the emotional side (for us and the child).
Amelia Bedelia
my parents adopted my sibling shortly after birth and then I am the biological child. We never “hide” the fact that she is adopted (a lot of people know), but we don’t lead with that. We let the issue arise organically if at all. And she actually looks a lot like my dad and my dad’s family. So, when people comment on the fact that I look just like mother and she looks just like father, we just smile and say “thanks” or “isn’t it funny how things work” or something similar. nothing wrong with that.
Anonymous
We considered using an egg donor, but ultimately used a donated embryo. It’s a deeply personal decision. That might be too far a leap, but if your clinic offers this option you may want to ask for information. It was somewhat less medically less intense and it was far less expensive. Talking about all our options helped us make our decision. Also as part of the process we had to undergo a psych evaluation from a therapist that specialized in reproductive issues. At first the psych eval seemed horribly invasive, but it was actually incredibly helpful.
Anonymous
Thank you, that’s really helpful. We will definitely explore that, too. I hadn’t really thought about it as an option. We have done about 8 IVF cycles now (between our first baby and this current attempt) so I’m prepared for the invasiveness of the procedures, but it’s definitely something to explore.
Anonymous
I ended up getting lucky on my last IUI, but we were counseled by my RE about IVF with donor egg at one point. We decided we would do donor embryo rather than donor egg because my husband had a problem with the idea that with a donor egg, he would be genetically related to the child, but I would not be. With donor embryo, neither of us would have the genetic connection.
My RE referred us to a counselor who worked specifically with couples considering these types of big reproductive issues. If we’d had to go that route, I would have gone to see her. These are big, big questions that deserve a lot of thought before making a decision.
Dahlia
I strongly considered becoming an egg donor when I was in school (I went to a fairly fancy med school so they were offering lots of money for donor eggs and I needed the money). Everyone I know who ended up donating took it extremely seriously and worked hard to work with the families. I ultimately decided against it because there was a lack of clarity as to what your potential involvement as a donor would be.. they kind of left it up to the families, and I was uncomfortable with the idea that the child I helped to create might come find me one day, might know who I was, might not.. just a lack of clarity as to what that would look like. Sometimes I kind of wish I had done it, because it really does sound wonderful to be able to help a family make their dream come true (plus I’m still paying off all that debt).
A colleague of mine had a child in her 40s using both an egg donor and a surrogate. She has a wonderful, healthy teenager now who is smart and athletic and just a great kid. I know she got a bit of flack socially about it, and she still got a bit mommy-tracked, but I have no doubt she would do it again.
In DC
I’m late to respond, but I am going to use donor eggs. I have no children and had two failed IVF cycles. It was an intense and painful one year process to decide, but once I finally made the decision it seemed less tragic. As we speak, I have 6 PGS normal embryos waiting for me, but unfortunately have a non-elective surgery scheduled in September and have to wait to transfer.
See if your clinic has a support group. Mine does and it has been helpful to talk to others. I also have a good friend who had her kids with donor eggs. She said to me, “Sometime I fantasize about having genetic children, but if someone offered me a baby with my genes in exchange for what I have, I would never trade my kids for it. They are my kids.” This is consistent with what I’ve read/heard from others–that your kids are your kids.
Best wishes. It’s a hard road.
Anonymous
I have a new, long commute (a ten min drive to the metro, then a 60 min train ride) and am looking for some suggestions for how to make the most of that time. The only problem? I get really carsick (trainsick?) if I read on the Metro. So far I’ve been listening to podcasts, but I wish I could make more of that time.
Anonymous
audio books?
Mel
Guided meditations
Download Netflix shows (you can still do that right?)
Have you tried using an ereader? I get motion sick, but I am fine with an ereader.
Anonymous
You know, I haven’t tried that but I get so sick if I read emails on my phone that I assumed ereaders would be the same. I’ll try it (in the last 10 min of my commute just to be safe!). Great recommendations — was thinking about meditation separately. That could be a good time to do it!
Anonymous
Bad news, I also get carsick from reading and e-readers don’t make a difference. I also can’t watch shows. Trying to focus my eyes on anything seems to make me sick.
Linda from HR
Yes, you can still download shows from Netflix, including standup comedy specials, which I like because I can enjoy them without necessarily having to focus on the screen at all times.
pugsnbourbon
Yes! That plus documentary series. I like to have them on while I’m cooking or working out. I know a lot more about forensic science now.
Shopaholic
This may push me over the edge to get a kindle…
Anon
Trader joes ginger chews saved me on the DC metro last year. Hot, humid, crowded, and the DC metro does this weird up and down in addition to side to side movement that was a big trigger. No problems on NY subway which just does side to side rocking.
Anonymous
I know! I used the NY subway for 15 years without incident (and got so much reading time in!) and I can’t tolerate the DC metro one bit! Will try these!
pugsnbourbon
For me it was the weird smell – someone told me it was brake fluid. Sometimes it would just be overpowering.
anon a mouse
Time to learn to knit or crochet!
I hate the term babymoon
Husband and I are looking to do a babymoon (hate that term but it explains exactly what we’re doing) in either mid-Sept or early October. Requirements are: warm; food; pool/beach; some sort of town to walk around in. We’re flying out of NYC. Willing to spend $300-$400/night for a really nice hotel. Can’t go to the Caribbean because of Zika. So far have thought of Scottsdale, AZ, but husband is concerned that a) it’s far; and b) it will be the middle-aged, Dockers-and-golfing set. We’re looking at the Hyatt Regency there.
So: any other place recommendations?
And, if you’ve been to Scottsdale, are there good restaurants and at least two to three activities?
Thanks!
CHJ
Where are you coming from? If you’re on the East Coast, what about southern Spain? We went to Spain from Boston this year and flights were actually cheaper than going to the West Coast ($300-$400 pp – we went in May). There are tons of little towns along the southern coast, and you can also explore Seville, Grenada, and Cordoba. Plus the food is awesome and hotels are cheap, and no Zika.
OP
Ooh, didn’t think of that. But I think the flight might be a little long, and I’m a wuss about time zones.
Anonymous
Bermuda? Might still be warm enough in late September.
OP
That was our original thought but early October works much better for us (kid #1’s school is closed for a few days so it’s a twofer to have grandparents watching her).
Anonymous
Hawaii is Zika-free and lovely (and comparatively cheap) that time of year.
OP
That would be perfect (and the resort we stayed in in Maui is what I have in mind for this trip) but I cannot do a 12 hrs flight from the East Coast
SC
New Orleans has nice weather and fun activities that time of year, especially early October. There’s no beach, but there are a lot of nice hotels with rooftop pools. The French Quarter is definitely walkable, and of course, the food is awesome. Check out the Windsor Court, Royal Sonesta, Omni French Quarter, and Ace Hotel for starters.
Anonon
I have my eye on Enchantment Resort in Sedona for no other reason that I just stumbled on it one day when looking for Zika-free vacations. Looks amazeballs.
Anony Mouse
+1 In my experience, the Sedona crowd is a little more diverse than Scottsdale. That said, Scottsdale isn’t small, so there’s likely to be a variety of options.
Anony Mouse
One thought: Sedona is about a 2 hours drive north of the Phoenix metro. If you do decide to go that route, you might want to stay overnight in Phoenix, to spread the travel-time out.
Wrote another comment with activity recommendations for the Phoenix area, which I guess is stuck in moderation.
Bewitched
+2, I would definitely do Sedona instead of Scottsdale-it’s amazing!
Jules
Sedona is incredibly beautiful. However, the town was surprisingly disappointing – a LOT of tacky t-shirt and souvenir shops. I would still go there, but choose a good resort.
cupcake
Scottsdale is really nice but many of the luxe resorts aren’t close to the “Old Town” area you could walk around in. And frankly, even in Sept/Oct, it may be too hot for you to walk around much comfortably in that heat. The Four Seasons there is gorgeous and very relaxing, and it’s not all old golf fogies. Lots of couples or lady friend groups.
Anony Mouse
What sort of activities are you interested in? The Musical Instrument Museum in north Phoenix is excellent. The Desert Botanical Gardens are lovely when it’s not too hot. I haven’t been to the Heard Museum (art) but hear it’s very good. I hope to tour Frank Lloyd Wright’s Taliesin West on my next visit.
If you do decide to go, be prepared for a fair bit of driving. Phoenix is one of the most spread-out metros in the U.S.
Delta Dawn
If you do Scottsdale, I love Cowboy Ciao. The Stetson chopped salad is amazing. If you go to Sedona, Elote is amazing. They don’t take reservations and the line can get long– you might try to get there early or try a weeknight.
Rainbow Hair
What about Palm Springs? Funky/artsy downtown, A+ poolside lounging, and it’s beautiful.
Anon
If you are still reading, check out the new Andaz in Scottsdale. I went this year while pregnant and there was definitely not an older golf crowd there. It was a mix of couples with a few families and some bachelor / bachelorette parties.
Anonymous
Why do doctors treat yeast infections like STIs?
My doctor wasn’t really judgey, but the questions themselves really seem that way. Does it matter my exact recent sexual activity? They’re not chronic, it’s my first time in a couple years at this practice that I’ve come in with one, and I have been getting them for way longer than I have even been having sex and have had them during extended dry spells. Has anybody else had this experience?
Anonymous
A partner can give you a yeast infection.
a millenial
i would guess because sometimes theyre from poor hygiene habits OR just the makeup of your v bacteria/flora (or so i was told because i got them during jr high, before being sexually active at all) and sometimes they’re related to actually having sex. they prb want to figure out what they’re actually correlated with.
JL
As a primary care doc, it matters. It’s part of the history when someone has a vaginal complaint. It should be matter of fact – we ask everyone. One cause of vaginitis is yeast but STDs can also present similarly. if the doc came off as “judgey” that is not ideal and I would consider a doc you feel more comfortable with. But ALL good physicians seeing patients for this complaint should ask a complete sexual history including recent activity/with whom/contraception/history of STDs etc. A doctor that doesn’t is doing a shoddy sub-standard job…
Linda from HR
I would think any problem involving your lady bits is going to warrant some discussion of your intimate activity, in order to get a full picture of what might be causing the problem. Some questions and tests are just routine, like weighing you when you come in with a skin rash.
But are you going to the doctor every time you have YV? Or did you just happen to have one when you went in for your yearly checkup?
Anon
Questions about your gardening habits != judgement and in this case they are definitely medically relevant. Maybe you need to get over your hangups on talking about your gardening life.
Anon
I am usually pretty intolerant of being treated like a lady patient rather than a patient, but if I have something going on in my vag and my doc wants to know what I’ve been putting in my vag, I would consider that relevant. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Job Search Woes
What are some tips on staying motivated during a job search? I really want to leave my firm. It isn’t a great fit. There are personality issues with some of the partners. I am working with recruiters and reaching out to everyone I know, but after three months nothing is happening.
January
It’s a marathon, not a sprint.
Yes, it’s a cliche, but it’s a cliche because it’s true. You will get through this, and maybe even sooner than you think. Three months isn’t that long to be looking, especially in law.
January
And I don’t mean to minimize your frustration at all. I’m in a similar boat. But I’ve had long periods of job hunting before, and I know from experience it can take time. You sort of have to learn to tolerate the frustration.
Job Search Woes
You are absolutely not minimizing my frustration. I really appreciate you sharing. It feels so lonely sometimes that just hearing anything from anyone is helpful.
Job Search Woes
Thank you. I needed to hear that. I know its true. With the pressure at work though, I get really anxious. The rejection I got this morning wasn’t helping either (although HR raised about 9000 red flags during the screening process).
Anonymous
I wrote about my bad interview experience last week. Definitely be glad you saw the red flags, and try not to be in a hurry, so you don’t make another mistake.
Shopaholic
+1 – I’ve been looking for 10 months and haven’t come close to anything yet. It is really frustrating but you just have to keep going…
anon
Commiseration. Your task right now is to learn how to manage your discomfort with uncertainty. (Yes, that’s a big task.) I searched for an associate position for almost a YEAR after graduating from law school in the crash. I basically just wanted to dissolve and cease to exist, I was so miserable. I wound up in a job that wasn’t anywhere close to my ideal job on paper, but it turned out to be a phenomenal and rare opportunity. If I’d gotten a particular job I interviewed for 4 months before, I’d have been miserable (learned later that the employer was a psycho.) If it took me a year to wind up in the right spot, so be it. You don’t know when this will end, but it WILL end. And it may turn out to be even better than you ever thought.
Job Search Woes
You sound a lot like me actually. I was in the same position when I graduated. It’s been five years for me, and after increasing frustrations in the job it took me a year to land, I realized that it is time to move on. I guess I should just remember my own experiences. Thank you for the reminder.
Echo
Every time you experience no call back or a rejection— it’s just experience that helps you become better and more confident in interviews, so when the right job does come along, you have a better shot.
Interview questions
I had a great phone interview this morning, dare I say “fun”. The HR gentleman was funny, had a great attitude and ability to get me to discuss my work history, without being kind of antagonistic and dry. He got the same information he would have received otherwise, but put me at ease. And I couldn’t believe I got him to tell me the salary before I told him my expectations. Yay me!
Is it ok to include in my thank you that I appreciated this? It was truly fun and he is definitely an ambassador for the organization.
Also, is it ok in interviews to mention Glass Door reviews? Say, if reviewers say the leadership is terrible, etc. After all, I’m interviewing them too. Thanks all.
Anonymous
are these real questions?
Case
re: recruiter, I would say something like, “I really enjoyed our discussion and appreciated your candor regarding ___”. honestly, I wouldnt’ oversell it because it can come across as trying to curry favor.
I would not expressly mention the glass door reviews, but you can/should ask about the content.
E.g., not: “Glassdoor said you have high turnover among managers. What do you think about that?”
But do ask: “I’m curious about how your management team has changed over the last several years. What has turnover been like and what do managers leave to do? Do you anticipate this is a fact of life that will continue into the coming years, or was this a period of transition?”
DCR
This sounds like a first round screening interview. Don’t ask about the glass door reviews now. Those are appropriate questions for an in-person interview, but come off wrong in response to the first round screening interview.
anon
I wouldn’t trust HR to tell me about the problems within an organization, you are better off extracting that info from a hiring manager. You also don’t want to be that person who believes everything they read on the internet.
Shopkio
Nice Women’s dress materials which every women look out for. Thanks for sharing!!
Gabby
I’m not crazy about the color on this one!
-gabby
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