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Updated: Oct 23, 2019 272 Comments · by

Wednesday’s Workwear Report: Knit Tweed Shift Dress

The Personal Shopper (TPS)

This post may contain affiliate links and Corporette® may earn commissions for purchases made through links in this post. As an Amazon Associate, I earn from qualifying purchases.

Our daily workwear reports suggest one piece of work-appropriate attire in a range of prices. Somehow this dress manages to look both cozy and professional: two descriptors that don’t often go together but are really what I’m looking for once it starts getting cooler. I like the piping details at the cuffs, and the neckline and the welt pockets are a nice touch. I think this would look great with a burgundy blazer, black tights, and black boots. The dress is $129–$149 at Talbots and is available in sizes 2–18, petite sizes 2–16, plus sizes 14–24, and petite plus size 18. During Talbots' Friends & Family sale, which runs through 10/27, you can get 30% off your entire purchase with code FRIENDS. Knit Tweed Shift Dress This post contains affiliate links and Corporette® may earn commissions for purchases made through links in this post. For more details see here. Thank you so much for your support! Seen a great piece you’d like to recommend? Please e-mail tps@corporette.com.

Sales of note for 9.30.24

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About Elizabeth

Elizabeth is a 30-something lawyer living on the East Coast. She spent seven years as a Biglaw associate in NYC, three years as a partner at a medium-sized firm, and is now in-house counsel for a large company. She loves Diet Coke, '90s sitcoms, and dresses with pockets.

Comments

  1. Anon123

    I emailed HR at an organisation I am interested in. It was to make an enquiry about a position I wanted to apply to. They responded saying it was entry level–the position was aimed at recent graduates and I was interested in applying since I am looking to change industries from academia to (environmental) consulting. I am considered an “experienced” professional since it has been a few years since I completed my doctorate. However at the moment I am unsure about the kinds of roles I would be considered for. When I send in my CV would it be premature to list location preferences?(It’s a big company with multiple locations)

    • Anon

      I don’t know your industry, but I don’t think this is the right role for you. Keep searching and applying. Talk to people in environmental consulting about tailoring your resume for the roles that you may be qualified for.

    • anon

      If I read between the lines on your comment- they responded to you, saying that they consider you experienced?
      I would ask them the same question you are asking us- but make it clear you are interested in learning about their internal structure/upcoming projects/hypothetical positions. Don’t phrase the question as “what jobs are open a my level now” It’s also a benefit if you can get some tips on what keywords to look for in future official postings- it may be obvious to their HR what “level 3″means, but completely arcane to the average applicant.

      Literally every single one of my professional jobs was not the initial posting I applied for at that organization. Some reached out to me with a different offer, others suggested I re-apply for a certain job. It seems to be very normal, government & private sector.

      Sorry, no help on your actual Q about including location preferences.

    • Anon

      Agreed- HR is pretty much worthless, they are certainly not going to look at your application and say “hmmm, this person seems like a good worker, let me sort through all the roles and see where she might go.”

    • Worry about yourself

      From a talent acquisition perspective, hiring managers are hesitant to choose experienced professionals for roles aimed at recent graduates, because even if they’re willing to accept a pay cut to change industries, there’s a really good chance they’ll get antsy in that first year and start gunning for a promotion or pay increase, and that may not be an option. Hiring one person only to have to backfill them 8 months later because they fled to a more senior, higher-paying role is expensive and time consuming. You have to really convince them you want that job, you’re not just settling because you’re desperate, and you’re willing to stay in that role long-term.

  2. Anon NY Bar

    I wrote the New York Bar as a foreign attorney and just found out I passed (the UBE)! Just wanted to share after having received some great advice here!

  3. Anon

    It seems that every time I do business development that my law firm knows about, I immediately get staffed on a new matter/questioned about my existing case load. A lot of this seems to come from this one partner, who is only supportive of my business development when I write articles for him. Last time I asked him for recommendations for a CLE event speaker, he said he would think about it, but immediately asked me if so had done other tasks (I already did them). The next day he staffed me on another matter when I was already busy. I’m a senior associate and making partner requires one’s own book of business at my firm. Any advice about what to do going forward? Hide all my business development efforts?

    • Anon

      I would be very circumspect about mentioning anything to him about your own business development.

    • Cat

      Oh I just saw that the below post was a dupe. Reposting here –
      Yeah, dude has proven he can’t be trusted with information that you are working for your own benefit rather than his. Do solid work on his matters so he won’t sandbag you when you are campaigning, of course, but otherwise feel free to test your hypothesis by not mentioning BD to him at all!

    • Anonymous

      That’s really frustrating. Have you talked to him about your partnership aspirations? I’m a senior associate too; last year when I was up for partner, I got a lot of feedback that I’m not doing enough BD. Well I was/am, and the people who work closely with me know it. I assumed that other people would notice my efforts too. Well they didn’t, because they’re busy and not paying attention, and I didn’t toot my own horn. This year, I’ve focused on being (what I feel is) obnoxiously salesperson-y about telling the partners what I’m doing and why. I just got my reviews – suddenly everyone is commenting about how much BD I’m doing and that shows I’m ready to be a partner in the firm. Nothing about my BD efforts has changed.

      I share this because it sounds like this guy assumes you’re doing BD because you have nothing better to do, not that you’re doing BD because it’s critical to partnership (which, unfairly, is an assumption I see a lot, particularly with people in their like 6th-7th year; then in years 8-9 they wonder why you don’t have business). If you haven’t already, approach him like a mentor (even if you feel he isn’t) and ask him what, in his mind, you need to do to make partner. What should be in your business plan? How many hours per month should you devote to BD? How many hours per month does HE devote to BD? What type of BD has been most successful for him?

      If you telegraph very clearly that you’re doing BD to make partner and he still overwhelms you with billable work, then you have to start delegating the work. You may also need to talk to the powers that be – “hey I’m overwhelmed with billable work and it’s killing my ability to do the BD I know I need to do; what do you recommend?”

      • Anonymous

        I’m not at a law firm, but in my organization the best strategy is to be discreet about the time you are spending on business development and then show off the results. In a law firm, is what counts towards partnership the time you spend on business development or the actual business you have developed?

        • Anonymous

          I’m the person you’re responding to. It depends on the firm. In my firm and in most large firms, they don’t necessarily expect you to have a big book of business when you make (income) partner. In fact, I know people who have made partner when they had exactly $0 in business. The firm expects to see the ability to generate business, which means that you’re doing the types of BD activities the firm sees as valuable. So, if you don’t have much of a book, which most associates don’t, then you need to let people know that you’re on the right path. I take your point, though, that this really depends on the culture of your workplace.

  4. Anon

    I’m starting to sense a pattern at my firm where every time I do business development that the firm knows about, I immediately get staffed on a new matter/questioned about my existing case load. A lot of this seems to come from this one partner, who is only supportive of my business development when I write articles for him. Last time I asked him for recommendations for a CLE event speaker, he said he would think about it, but immediately asked me if so had done other tasks (I already did them). The next day he staffed me on another matter when I was already busy. I’m a senior associate and making partner requires one’s own book of business at my firm. Any advice about what to do going forward? Hide all my business development efforts from this partner? The thing is, he otherwise seems like a good person.

    • Anonymous

      I have a senior colleague like this. He doesn’t want the really competent people who work on his projects to advance because we won’t be as available to work on his projects and because he doesn’t want to compete with us to direct projects. It definitely pays to be strategic about which business development efforts are visible to whom, and when.

    • Cat

      Yeah, dude has proven he can’t be trusted with information that you are working for your own benefit rather than his. Do solid work on his matters so he won’t sandbag you when you are campaigning, of course, but otherwise feel free to test your hypothesis by not mentioning BD to him at all!

  5. Ellen

    Elizabeth, I totally LOVE this dress! It has everything I like, high neckline, decent construction and pattern. And not even expensive! Great pick! I will show the manageing partner today, and hopefully he will say “get it!” I hope the sizes will not be sold out by the time I ask; I am temted to buy it now and play Russian Rulette that he will say yes–the worse that can happen is that he says no and I pay $129. I can afford that. I will show Rosa b/c she normally does not look at Talbot’s.

    I have been in a lull lately, I have plenty of existing cleints, but have not been able to bring any new cleints into the firm. The manageing partner is thinking of looking at some other firms to see if they are interested in merging with us, but I am worried that if we merge, I will NOT be the next manageing partner, so I told him I would work to find new cleints. That means me goeing out and teaching at more CLE’s and tallking to the Judge about other cases he has seen where the insurance company’s lawyers have not represented their cleints properly. If I can get an “in” from the Judge, I think I will be able to get those cleints to consider OUR firm for new work, b/c each case is a new case for them and I already have templates for defending most kinds of Workers Comp claims, both in NY, as well as in Conneticut, where we have an arrangement with a local firm for me to argue pro hac vice.

    The manageing partner said to me that I need to “get a broader book of business”. I do NOT want to have to learn medical malpractice, so if any one in the hive has ideas how I can parlay my WC expertise into something new w/o haveing to learn to much new stuff, I am all ears! Thank’s in Advance! YAY!!!

  6. Everlane Day Heel

    I bought the knockoff from JCrew and it looks like they don’t make that anymore, so I’m up for buying the real Everlane Day Heel b/c it comes in leather (JCrew was suede, and in B- shape after a year in a rainy city) and none of last year’s pumps will stay on my feet now that it tights weather (they slip off my narrow heels).

    Any recommendations based on sizing? I’m an 8 or 8.5, depending on fit. Narrow heels. Due to some prior broken toes, width at the ball of my foot is slightly larger than B on one side but not wide enough to be wide (other foot is normal).

    Thanks!

    • CHL

      I had some and ended up selling on poshmark because they were so cute but my feet were just too wide. I would suggest sizing up a full size. You could probably get the one side stretched by a cobbler.

    • Anonymous

      On a related note, has anyone tried the Antonia Saint flat? It looks like it has a grippy heel built-in, which I would be a fan of. [The Margaux heel, which resembles the Everlane one w/o the elastic, looks like a contender, but I don’t know anyone who has tried it. It is all over my social media feed though.]

      • Anonymous

        After 8 months with still no shoes and a months out projection, I asked for a refund. I also got an email yesterday saying they were changing their refund policies but didn’t look at the details. If you do order, make sure you’re OK with the fulfillment time and any recourse. It feels to me like a company that is still in start up mode and struggling.

    • anon

      Size up … a lot. I have narrow feet and wish I’d ordered a full size larger because they’re just too short and tight. The leather has not stretched as much as I’d hoped, and I count these dang shoes as one of my most expensive shopping mistakes.

  7. Spa Etiquette

    Has anyone been to Chatham Bars Inn’s spa? I’ve been to fancy spas before but rarely do I get to hang around and use the full suite of amenities beyond just the booked spa service. DH and I are getting away for my upcoming birthday. I still need to do a little more homework (including probably calling the spa directly), but it appears the spa has some hot tubs/jacuzzi pools and lounge areas. If we book a spa service I presume we have access to the larger spa amenities. Should we assume that a 2pm massage might end up being a multiple hours long hang out in the spa, including needing us to pack bathing suits so we can use the pools for some added relaxation? Anything else I should be aware of as far as etiquette is concerned?

    • Lilliet

      It depends on the spa. I would ask if people generally use the amenities before/after and how much time to allocate to doing so. Definitely bring bathing suits, but generally robes/towels/slipper shoes have been provided at the ones I’ve been to.

    • Anon

      I have not been to that particular spa, but have been to different spas at hotels and fancy resorts, and the ones I have been to have all had separate amenities for men and women, so the hot tubs and steam rooms were separated by gender, so you may not be able to hang out “together” at the spa, so I would check on that for sure.

    • MNF

      The hot tub/jacuzzi is in the middle of the outdoor pool, and I would assume is not open now (have only been in the summer). The lounge area is not especially nice (fine for your short wait for the massage, but I would not plan to spend time there. There are saunas in the locker rooms and steam showers.

      If you’re not staying at CBI, I would recommend getting lunch as part of your visit – their restaurants are good.

  8. Dessert Ideas

    I am hosting a dinner party for 8 people and looking for ideas for dessert. We are doing steaks, a fall salad, bread, and grilled vegetables for the meal, and I would like something nice for dessert, but I don’t have a ton of prep time (it’s a Friday night and I have to work all day). I’m not opposed to making something if it doesn’t take a ton of time, but I’m also open to just buying something.

    • Pompom

      Trifle of some kind? Layer brownies or cake cubes (angel food, pre-made, torn up?) with pudding, cool whip, crushed candy?

      In the famous words of Joey, “”Custard, good … jam, good … meat, GOOD!”

      • Anonymous

        Cool whip?!? Yeeeesh. Way to ruin a nice trifle!

        I’d go the opposite route- nice apple pie from a bakery, homemade real whipped cream or store bought ice cream.

      • Housecounsel

        I like offering a bunch of little treats rather than a giant cake or something. I go to Whole Foods and get macarons and lemon knots and petit fours and chocolate covered strawberries and that sort of thing. This way people can have a touch of something(s) sweet but not have to decide whether to accept a big slice of sugar and butter. Not that there is anything wrong with big slices of sugar and butter . . .

      • NOLA

        You can make a more fall-ish version of trifle with cubes of gingerbread and a pumpkin filling with whipped cream or cool whip. Graham cracker crumbs sprinkled on top. Yum!

    • Anon

      I am a good baker, but for dinner parties I almost always buy dessert. Just pop into a good bakery at lunch time and buy whatever looks best.

    • DoesntBelongHere

      Pumpkin pie from a local bakery with ice cream or home-made whipped cream (easy if you have a stand mixer).

    • The original Scarlett

      My crowd pleasing easy dessert is great vanilla ice cream, served with little jars of caramel, chocolate sauce and fruit sauce, and a dish of nuts. I scoop the ice cream individually and bring the toppings to the table for build your own sundaes. It’s always a hit, zero cooking and pretty easy to find premium ingredients to elevate it as you like

    • anon

      Pumpkin pie went over very well with everyone (except DH) at ly last dinner party. Its not toi hard to make, although it does require oven time. Or, I think it is the best store-bought pie available. Costco has good ones, Cyrus oLeary brand is pretty good, and I haven’t bothered to try the other usual suspects with good bakeries.

    • go for it

      Fresh fruit is my go to after most dinners. I generally serves grapes of a few varieties. To prep, rinse and separate branches out into smaller bunches.

      • Anon

        Tbh if I were invited to a party where grapes were served for dessert, I’d be a little disappointed. Seems very diet-y, even if that’s not your intention.

          • Aggie

            I don’t typically care for sweets and quite often I serve a cheese course at dinner parties. It is always a HUGE hit and I really enjoy trying out different cheeses. I make sure to include sweet accompaniments (jellies, honey, dried fruit) to appease those with a sweet tooth and serve a dessert wine or two.

        • Anon

          Yeah, to me serving fruit and fruit only is a little insulting, like you think your guests need to lose weight. FIne to have fruit as an option for guests who don’t want a real dessert, but there should be a real dessert.

          • PolyD

            I would love a bowl full of different kinds of grapes. They would go very nicely with some buttery shortbread cookies, or maybe maple pecan bars…

    • anonymous

      For fall dinners, I like to whip out an apple crisp with a crumble topping….so easy and quick, and makes the house smell great while baking…I let it bake during dinner. I buy a nice vanilla ice cream to put on top….people love it!

      • Vicky Austin

        Oooh, this would be perfect. Apple slicing might take a while, but the streusel comes together pretty quick.

      • Anonymous

        Do you have a recommended recipe for apple crisp? I see there’s one at Cup of Jo. What apples are best — Granny Smith?

        • anonymous

          Hi! I am the apple crisp recommender….I like to use a combo of some firmer baking apples like Cortland, Stayman Winesap or Granny Smith, mixed with a few MacIntosh, and maybe a sweeter apple like a Golden Delicious or Fuji or Braeburn. I live in the country among apple orchards so I am fortunate to have alot of choices and access, but I have also just made this with whatever apples are on hand in the fridge…recipe is cut up the apples in slices, mix with some lemon juice, sugar (white and brown), spices – I always use lots of cinnamon, some nutmeg, ground ginger or fresh if you have it, a touch of cloves. Make the crumble by mixing cold butter with flour, spices, sugar until crumbly…..spread over top and pop it in the oven. Bake this is in a casserole or pie plate on a baking sheet so there are no drips….very EASY!!!

    • bigorangedrink

      There was a recipe in my NYT daily briefing email for maple walnut bourbon blondies. I’m sure it will come up in a search. Basic blondies are very easy to make and these are only a little fancier. Yes, please!

    • Anon

      I do an assortment of fancy cookies from a bakery, maybe served with ice cream. No one expects you to make those decorated cookies so it’s perfectly fine they’re from a bakery. Everyone seems to like this because it’s serve yourself and easy enough to just clear the dinner dishes and then set a plate of pretty cookies down on the table. Everyone says they’re too full for dessert but the cookies get eaten. :)

    • Formerly Lilly

      Red wine poached pears are a fairly quick and hands off prep, and they can be done ahead and held in the refrigerator in their liquid. Mascarpone with a smidge of sugar and liqueur or port whipped in with a fork as a garnish.

    • Anonymous

      Buy (frozen to thaw) pound cake, vanilla ice cream or whipped cream + strawberries or some other fruit.

    • Trixie

      If you have time to make apple crisp, go for that–you can prep the crisp part earlier in the week, and maybe do the apples in the am. Serve with vanilla ice cream. Or, buy a pie or two. Or, serve vanilla ice cream with fall toppings: maple syrup with crumbled walnuts, crushed gingerbread cookies, stewed pears, etc.

    • Anon CPA

      Cream puffs, brownies, and Irish coffees (or champagne….but I always want to drink champagne, lol)

  9. Lonely Associate

    I’m a 5th year corporate / M&A associate who is feeling very isolated at work. I feel like the junior associates are using their heavy workload as an excuse to offload the burden to me (whether through lower quality or being unreachable in meetings or calls) and the more senior associates and partners want me to run the cases and not be involved day to day. I occasionally go to lunch with a couple of colleagues from my class 2-3x/week, set up a small social lunch or dinner with senior associates I’m close to every other week or so. I don’t drink so am not really invited to the (admittedly mainstream) drinking scene at my firm.

    I had a good workflow and project teams going until last year (work that partners and senior associates managed closely and junior associates who actually did good and timely work), but I had a six month secondment last year and my then-junior associates inherited most of my caseloads. I’ve been re-staffed back on some of the client cases since my return, but it’s been slow ramping up.

    I’m not complaining about the hours (billing 25-40 hour weeks whereas I used to consistently bill 60-80/week pre-secondment), but I’m feeling a but redundant. I’m not too worried about getting fired for another year or so (slow work has mostly been due to multiple deals breaking up and I bill enough during the busy spurts), but I just feel like all the feelings of mild dissatisfaction, anxiety, and annoyances of the grind, as well as woreies about the future and frustration that I’m not really playing an important role to the partners I work for, are creeping up and manifesting as loneliness. It doesn’t help that the firm staffs me on small cases with no oversight and super tight fees during my liw hour times (which I guess I should be grateful for, but then I end up playing junior/senior associate/partner all by myself which adds to the isolation)

    FWIW, I do try to have a life outside of work, have a steady SO of three years that I spend quality time with on weekends, take advantage of the museums and parks and shows offered by NYC, and exercise 3-4x/week. I’m in CBT for generalized anxiety, which has vastly improved over the past few months. I think I get enough sleep (now that I’m billing 40, anyway).

    Is this workaholism? Or life after workaholism? Realizing the meaningless void that I have been trying to fill with work? Or just a function of feeling replaced with someone youger and with lower rates? I’m not too concerned with making partner (don’t really want to, and as a WOC without Ivy degrees or any connections (went to public schools with scholarships all the way) I think the chances are pretty slim anyhow), but can’t seem to shake it. Any tips for getting out of the funk? Any advice? I plan to get to $750k net worth and go in house/lateral in a couple of years, so logically I know I don’t need to care emotionally so much, but somehow I do?

    • Lonely Associate

      Oh, and I fully understand that it makes sense for me to pick up the slack since I have the time (but it reinforces the pattern of people offloading things to me), and that my previous junior associates have successfully transitioned to a more midlevel role that I used to play. I think the jump to a 5th year role (which is when a lot of things change) with a gap of firm life due to secondment also caught me off guard.

    • Anonymous

      You get lunch with people 2-3 days a week. I think you need to be more concerned about why you are under utilized than your office social life which sounds fine.

      • Anon

        +1 !!! Seriously, that’s A LOT! Not in a bad way, but I wonder why you’d even want more office socializing than that? What did you do before your secondment?

        • OP

          Before my secondment I would eat at my desk or go out to lunch alone most days, and maaaybe have lunch 1-2x/week. Nothing fancy, just grabbing quick salads together.

    • Anonymous

      As you become more senior, ime, you shift from working collaboratively to spending more time in your own head. I hear you that that’s a tough shift; I’m pretty comfortable working alone, but even I feel isolated sometimes. When I’m feeling isolated, sometimes I’ll work in a conference room instead of my office; a change of scenery really helps. You might also consider getting more involved in a professional organization or pro bono work. Honestly, though, it sounds like you’re doing awesome. I think you’re being too hard on yourself.

      Re the low rate matters – they’re a great way to gain experience, I would be massively encouraged that they’re staffing you on those. I’m a litigator so I can’t speak to the specific things you should be doing, but I would expect a 5th year litigator to be angling for more experience on their feet. Unfortunately, a client who’s willing to pay $1k/hr for a partner isn’t going to let a 5th year argue their motion for summary judgment. So, as a mid-level, your best shot at getting opportunities on your feet is to work on lower rate matters. Just try to balance it with some normal rate work so you keep your realization rate afloat.

    • The original Scarlett

      Your experience is pretty common, you’re at the phase where a lot of people start realizing that a law firm probably isn’t their long term career and it can manifest in hours-stress/not getting as much work, as you describe. If you enjoyed the work in your secundment, now is probably a good time to look at going in-house. A few years may be a good timeline, but you could make a move sooner.

    • Anon

      How long have you been back from your secundment? I would be more worried that your hours are still low if you want to stay around the firm for another few years. Some, but not all, firms use secundments to start pushing people out.

  10. carolyn

    People who work in very casual offices – would you wear athleisure to work?

    I work in an office wear people wear jeans, sweatshirts, sneakers on a regular basis, and want to make it as seamless as possible to go to the gym after. To that end today I’m wearing yoga pants, sports bra and a sleeveless top, and a long sweater on top. So it really doesn’t look different from a sweater + leggings, which would be appropriate in my office.

    Sort of hiding workout clothes with work clothes.

    Does anyone else do this? If I did I would tend towards more looser pants, go buy some nicer pieces, etc

    • Anonymous

      I so, so, so want to wear athleisure to work. The closest I get are Athleta’s fleece-lined leggings on cold days instead of tights. I WFH a lot and exclusively in athleisure.

      • Housecounsel

        Athleta has a line of “commuting” clothes that disguise their athletic properties pretty well.

        • Anonymous

          I know, but I really prefer being encased in fleece. Office is freezing. The commuting stuff looks good, but I think would work maybe in some place in the tech space or on the west coast. I want office pajamas in a warm fabric. And with pockets.

    • Edge

      Check out Aday as well. They were designed for this
      My office is more formal so I wear the brand outside of work or for work flights when not going straight to a meeting

    • Anonymous

      In that situation I’d definitely do athletic leggings/sports bra under a sweater dress and booties or jeans and wedges with a more athletic long sleeve top. Black vs heavily patterned or brightly colored is probably key to keeping it a level above rolling in from the gym.

      • Anon

        Yeah, don’t do a sweater dress, and definitely don’t do wedges – WAY WAY WAY too formal for an office where people wear t-shirts.

    • Anon

      My office is casual-ish…some people dress up more but a lot of people wear whatever. I wear jeans and sneakers pretty regularly, and I wore sweatshirts when I was pregnant, but I draw the line at leggings/yoga pants.

    • Anon

      Yeah, I’ve done this. Super casual office at times. I usually throw a long cardigan (barefoot dreams for the win). Agree with the other poster – the key is the color palette – I stick to black/navy with no fun wild prints. Would not do sweater dress or anything that formal – in a super casual office, that’s too much.

    • Anon

      I work in a super casual office and I’ve definitely done it, although I prefer not to. But if I’ve had a long night of meetings the night before (or a long night of socializing) I will sometimes wear leggings and a sweatshirt to work. Mostly I wear jeans.

    • midtown anon

      i do (in biglaw) ! esp in winter (yoga pants, knit dress, knee high boots, sports bra, blazer), so it’s great for going straight to yoga.

    • Anon

      Ok I know society seems to have transitioned from leggings are not pants to leggings are pants, but please don’t wear them as pants at the office. That is too much – or, rather, not enough.

    • Anonia

      All the time! But I teach preschool. It Does help with working out- I’m already dressed for it so there’s no excuse of having to change and justifying not exercising with the activities we did during the day. Obviously, I wear more formal clothes for parent mtgs etc.

  11. busybee

    What do you all pay for life insurance? 750k for a 30-year term is specifically what I’m looking at. I have my proposed policy but am trying to see if that’s competitive without having to sign up for a dozen “quotes” from various companies and getting emails/phone calls from them forever. Thank you!

    • Anon

      500K, 25 year term so a bit different, $26/month. I used policy genius to compare quotes. I had some mental health issues in my medical history, so I didn’t get instant quotes from every provider, but DH has a pretty straight forward medical history and got a bunch of quotes. I get emails from policy genius, but no other provider.

    • Diana Barry

      I have $1.5M and pay about 1400/year, but I was pregnant when I got it so the rates are a bit higher, I think.

    • Anon

      $750k for a 25-year term at $850/annually. Got it priced right after I gave birth so I was over weight more so than usual. PSA: GET IT BEFORE YOU GET PREGNANT. I was in the best shape of my life at the time.. oh well.

    • Leatty

      750k, 35 year term, $50/month (preferred plus class). My husband has 750k, 25 year term, and pays $125/month (standard class).

    • Veronica Mars

      Mine is $750k for 30 years and it’s $40/month– I was dinged on a few things and got into the second highest health class. No kids yet.

    • Anon

      I got it a long time ago so factor in 17-18 years inflation but $40-$45ish per month for $1 million in coverage.

    • Anon

      $1 million 20 year term for $45 per month. I got mine right after I was pregnant with my first, while I was pregnant with my second (though I might have had the health screen before the second pregnancy – I forget). I don’t think that made a difference for me.

  12. Woods-comma-Elle

    A question to you all who manage/supervise more junior people. I’m a senior associate in big law and have juniors/mids doing work for me all the time. I have a to do list for myself but there are tons of things the juniors are doing that need to get done by them, and for me it is a case of simply tracking that they are being done. I run multiple deals at a time and get a ton of emails, so it’s getting increasingly difficult to keep track of everything.

    How do y’all track this stuff? Someone suggested regular meetings but I’m in a fast-moving transactional practice so this isn’t really practical. I thought maybe a separate list or email reminders/flags, but would be interested to hear how others deal with this. I have in the past tried to use flags with not much success but that might be the way to go.

    • Anonymous

      For deals, how about a shared closing checklist or similar;y structured document where you can insert tasks, responsibilities and deadlines. Task a junior associate with creating it and set the expectation that the team update it regularly. It won’t replace conversations, but it can make it easier to coordinate to-do lists.

      • Woods-comma-Elle

        We have these, and it works exactly like this, ie the junior is responsible, but I’m thinking more ad hoc things than this (random questions from clients etc that aren’t necessarily critical path for the deal but need to be responded to in a timely manner, or where we are acting as local counsel on a deal so our part is more discrete).

        • EB

          I am a litigator not transactional, so I don’t think our work is the same, but I use a combination of a handwritten to-do list and my email inbox. I clean it out regularly so the only things in my main inbox are open to-do items. I used to use flags, which was a good solution when I was more junior and had fewer emails, but now my inbox is too busy and they get lost.

    • anon

      A checklist? I use one for every deal and have an internal and external version. Mark who is doing what on the internal version and when you need it (your junior should be managing this), and highlight everything you’d want to remove for the external version so you can just delete when/if you need to send it out.

    • Anonymous

      Shared to-do lists. I’ve recently started using a web-based program called Smartsheets for one of my collaborative projects. On it’s most basic level, it’s a shared to-do list with deadlines and progress tracker. Before we had that, I’ve also set up shared to-do lists on a OneNote page that everyone on the team had access to.

      • Anonymous

        Just a note that these types of web-based programs are probably not allowed for lawyers. I know my firm doesn’t allow us to use google docs, etc., for anything containing client info.

        • Anon

          If you have an intranet, you could do something similar in a Word or Excel document and it would still be accessible to everybody who needed to see it.

        • Anonymous

          I’m at a firm. OneNote’s a Microsoft office program, so it’s all intranet. Smartsheets was apparently secure enough to meet our tech people’s satisfaction, though it’s not really the type of thing you would put client data on. It really just is a task list.

          • Anonymous

            Although I think Microsoft may have gotten rid of OneNote in Office 2019? We’re still on 2016. I suppose I’ll have to go back to excel spreadsheets on the document management system if they do away with OneNote. We’re also reportedly looking at a Cloud-based document management system. I have no idea how it would work with the banking clients and their super strict security requirements, but the future is coming.

          • Anonymous

            As far as I can tell OneNote will still exist, but will be bundled with Windows instead of Office.

    • Junior Associate

      Following with interest. I’m a few years lower than you on the Biglaw scale but have this same problem.

      For my part, I assume you already have a closing checklist — I tend to make have junior associates make it super detailed so that the steps include things like prepare draft of A (where A can be as short as a receipt), Client confirms A, A gets sent to counterparty, parties agree on form A, parties sign form A, and so on for any additional milestones. For smaller issues tied to a specific work product in the process, I make a note in the internal draft (B checking issue C (date)) and highlight it so I can follow up. I also set my Outlook so that I have a copy of all the emails I sent out, and flag TTD items. In the mornings I filter them by title so I know which emails are still pending answers and follow up.

      I’ve had a first year follow up all the emails per a partner’s orders on a multibillion deal, but it just threw them off. Daily meetings worked slightly better for that particular case, but mostly because partner was there to personally chase everyone down every day.

      • Junior Associate

        Adding to say I also keep a separate legal pad that only contains my to-do list, with the matter name, action item and a check box for where each item is at. It’s a bit hard to keep track if you have 5+ busy deals going on (which is when I default to the flag system above) but I’ve used it successfully for running 2-4 deals. A small bullet point with an empty checkbox with an arrow pointing to the assigned junior or reviewing partner indicates I’m waiting for that person to revert. I check the previous day’s pending items and drew up a new to-do list every morning when I arrive at the office. I tried moving it online but the visual reminder seemed to work best for me, plus I could jot down small notes as I discussed.

    • Anonymous

      For ad hoc things, I just create a reminder from the email itself. Curious to hear about others’ processes.

    • Anonymous

      I’m in a fast moving transactional practice as well, and we have lots of short internal check in calls during the day to keep track of these type of things. I also tell the junior associate I explicitly expect them to keep track of them and update me on their progress, and I keep track of things by flagging emails in outlook (either flagging the email that describes what needs to be done or emailing myself if the request comes in in person or by phone).

      For context, a check in call means that I call the junior associate(s) for ~5 minutes and we talk about what is outstanding, what needs to get done, any strategic issues and who will do what. Then we call the partner together and I brief the partner for 5 minutes on what is going on. We might have this call anywhere from 1-10 times a day depending on how busy we are. We don’t always call the partner – only when it is relevant.

    • thecareerfiles

      Two suggestions:
      1. Every time you send a request, add an entry to your calendar on/after the deadline to follow-up and confirm it was done. Calendar reminders popping up on my screen are a better visual reminder to me than using email flags.

      2. A separate task list in excel for projects. It should be simple – columns for date assigned, task, associate assigned, deadline, and a notes field for the associate to update the current status. Notes should be short and sweet (e.g., “Researching issue as of 10/23,” or “response to client email sent 10/23”). Add new tasks as you go, so you have a history of work done you can reference (you can hide old rows in excel to cut down on clutter). Share the file with the team, tell them to keep it updated, and then set a calendar reminder for yourself to check it regularly so you can track progress.

    • Pipe Dream

      Two things I have found helpful when managing juniors:
      1. Get them to use some sort of tracking system themselves. I have talked to every one of them multiple times about the importance of keeping track of everything. I worded it as a practice tip and what I found partners like.

      2. A check-in call every couple of days when deals are not crazy busy or every day if we are close to a signing/closing. We will run down the to-do list together. I found a call is much more efficient than checklist updates/electronic to-do list as it forces everyone to pay attention and assigns the responsibilities quickly. When things get crazy, a junior may send me a checklist on Monday morning and I may not get time to read it until Tuesday, when more updates need to be made. A call is much easier and builds the rapport as inevitably, we would vent about some frustrating crap that we had to deal with on that matter…

    • Anon

      I assign tasks through Outlook tasks. They stay on my task list as assigned. I do not put my own to-do list on Tasks. Just the assigned stuff. I keep track of it that way. It allows the person working on it to mark it as not started, in-progress, waiting on someone else, completed, etc. so I know what stage it is in.

    • Small Law Partner

      Excel, with a tab for each case. I keep a list of what i am waiting on, from who, and when I plan to follow-up if no word. I include everything here – stuff from people more junior and more senior, opposing counsel, third parties, my assistant, etc. This is just something for me, so I don’t share it with my teams.

  13. Housecounsel

    Piggybacking on an interesting question from yesterday afternoon about when someone is “old” and what factors make one octogenarian “old” and another not. I work with some litigators in their mid- to late 70s (all men) who are still full steam ahead, trying long cases and running all over the country deposing experts. One actually told me he intends to die at his desk. I assume they don’t need to work. I think about people like Bernie Sanders or He Who Must Not Be Named. I wonder what drives them, and vacillate between wishing I had their energy and feeling sorry for them. Do any of you see yourselves not slowing down at all well into your 70s? I really hope that to reach that age, and I hope to spend it doting on grandchildren and volunteering for causes in which I believe. But working full-time plus? No, despite the fact that I truly enjoy my job. What about you? What do you think drives the people who never slow down?

    • Anonymous

      I think those men have just never figured out an identity separate from work and I find them sad.

      • anonymous

        This…..these are men that derive their personal value from their work. It is an ego thing and an insecurity thing….sad.

      • Anon

        I strongly suspect they also pour nearly all of their energy into work. They aren’t organizing family events, watching their grandchildren on the weekends, doing their own errands, etc. You might be able to have their energy level at work and still have energy left for your family and home life at 60, but not at their ages.

        • Anon

          Yep. The people I know who are working well into their 70s and 80s just WORK. They work and commute and that’s basically what they have the bandwidth for. Which is totally understandable because there’s phases of life that feel that way in your 30-50s so of course at 75, you must be physically exhausted by the work and commute.

      • anonymous

        I think about this a lot. I’m a litigator and my grandfather was a judge. He had to be dragged out of the court house, basically, at the state’s mandatory retirement age (past 70) and he worked part time as often as possible until a few years before his death. I’ve seen the older men in my practice and think it will never be me (at least, not unless I get a job I truly care about.) Some of it surely is ego, insecurity, and a lack of identity outside of work. But I also have some compassion and empathy for these men. It’s easy for me to sit back and judge that they don’t have an identity outside of work, but the worlds they grew up in and my world are just so different. Can I really blame them? (As long as they’re not hurting anyone.) It’s not like my grandfather read think pieces in the NYT about toxic masculinity and the perils of work culture, or was encouraged by the Navy to set boundaries and consider self-care. Ultimately, if it brings them joy and gives them purpose and meaning, who am I to judge or take that away? Although it may not be the “purpose” I would choose (especially civil litigation ugh), there is a real psychological cost to losing your sense of purpose and your place in the world while acknowledging that your life is winding down. Working provides social interaction, engagement with the world, intellectual stimulation, routine, structure, validation of your “worth.” Are there healthier options? Possibly (travel, family). But who are we on the outside to say that their lives are not on balance better for working?

        And honestly some truly love it. My grandfather was a combo– is identity was wrapped up in it, but he also cared about his work very much and the contribution that he was making. I admire and relate to that.

        • anonymous

          my father was a professor for many years and now that he is retired, we see how much ego gratification he received from the work that he did….he enjoyed being the smartest person in the room, writing and publishing books, networking, etc. Retired 10 years ago but still hasn’t really transitioned to enjoy retirement….we were hoping he would take an interest in his home and family, grandchildren, but not much has changed. He seems to be chasing the attention and recognition through other outlets such as symposiums/conferences he arranges at his church, guest speaker for certain events and part time teaching college. He doesn’t invite his family into those activities, which is odd. This is sad but after 10 years we have accepted it and moved on. He doesn’t have strong relationships with his children or grandchildren and that is a choice he made. Yes, it is good to continue to be active, working, being intellectually stimulated, but this is not where you want to be in your 70s.

      • Anonymous

        Yes, I get this–and I get that we all find them sad. but my question is…HOW? How do they do this into their 70s? My parents are in their 70s, healthy, and travel a ton to visit grandkids and on personal trips. But i still can’t imagine either of them traveling regularly for work.

        • Anon

          I think it’s doable if you never stop. It’s hard to imagine anyone doing this if they stop to smell the roses even for a year, but if you have been on the grind since 22 or 25 and it’s all you know — then it’s your normal, even if it means that you travel through the airport slower and are checking your luggage now so as not to have to lift things into the overhead.

    • Anonymous

      It is my firm desire not to be one of those lawyers. I work on cases with opposing counsel who I know have made millions and could retire tomorrow and yet they keep working (one even after having heart issues). I do not get it. I might work part time or do a lot of volunteering, but there’s no way I want to still be working 40-50 hour weeks at age 70. No one’s dying regret is that they didn’t work enough.

      • Anonymous

        Well, let me clarify that since you mentioned Sanders and He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named. I could see working as a politician or similar after 70 if I thought I was actually making a difference in policies I cared about or people’s lives. But litigating? Nope. It’s just a job for me.

    • anon

      I think the need to feel relevant (and being uber involved at work is how some people find relevance) drive them. The need for power and to keep it may be part of that too. Control issues and not being able to let go may also be a factor.
      I do not believe He Who Must Not Be Named works as hard as the lawyer you speak of. Does he not get blocks of ‘executive time’ each day to..do nothing? Not to say that international or domestic trips aren’t taxing for leaders, but that is not an every day or week occurrence.
      Being in the rat race for my entire race does not appeal to me at all. I hope as you do to leave it and enjoy life on my own terms.

      • AnonInHouse

        I agree with your first paragraph. My 70 year old mother continues to work 50-60 hours/week, with international travel, despite 1) having plenty of money to retire (my dad is semi-retired, and just works a little because she does), and 2) claiming to be exhausted, stressed and wanting to quit to spend more time with her grandkids. The only thing I can figure out that keeps her working at a job she professes not to want is needing to feel relevant and control issues…plus the external validation that comes with end of year reviews and bonuses.

    • Anon

      I don’t know any that actually work, rather they just pretend to work. I think it is the power and feeling important, and although everyone is telling them to hang up their boots, they keep working for their own ego.

    • Anon

      I went on a rafting trip with a 74-year-old man who works hard at his job (salmon fisherman in AK), but has traveled the world and made cool hobbies his priority. He was BY FAR the fittest person on a trip full of fit people -he’d go do a cool 3-4 hour side hike after a full day of rowing and would barely break a sweat. Apparently his wife is the same way (although she couldn’t make it on this trip), including accomplishing some really cool stuff back when she was pregnant with their son. I aspire to their example, including the “work to live, don’t live to work” angle.

      • Anon

        Also, FWIW, they dragged their kids around the world on all their hobbies and trips and just fit the kids into their own lives. I aspire to that too.

          • Anon

            Maybe they did, but I don’t think parents were as paranoid and fearful 40 years ago so probably not.

    • Anon

      It’s super common in academia to work until you die. My husband is a professor and there’s no age at which he plans to fully retire.

    • Anon

      I feel bad for people who work nonstop into their 80s (I just don’t understand it in cases where it’s not motivated by financial insecurity), but people who maintain their hobbies into their elderly are awesome. Exercise and focus keeps the mind and body young. I know people who have skied, surfed, ridden horses, cycled, and run well into their 80s and 90s.

      • Anon

        Yep, I’ve gotten dropped on bike rides by plenty of guys in their upper 70s and 80s. It’s both humbling and motivating.

      • Anonymous

        So judgy! It is ok to have hobbies when you are 80 but not ok to want to work.

      • Anon

        Yeah, that is a weird judgy perspective. The people I know who have continued to work do it because they love what they do.

    • IDK

      My perspective is an in house lawyer – We have a group of late boomer attorneys (30+ years in the workforce) who just will not retire. It’s frustrating. They’ve all made a boatload of money and continue to do so. Their children all grown. I think that they have a pretty cushy existence and they figure why retire? They delegate all substantive work and mainly spend their time communicating messages to the executive team. It’s not that hard, and they have a place to go and a purpose. I’m in my 15th year, and just had to jump ship to advance. In years past, these folks would have retired and played tennis or golf at the club and let the people under them take their place.

      • Anon

        That seems like kind of an ageist and entitled viewpoint. If they enjoy working and they’re physically and mentally fit enough to be working, they shouldn’t have to retire just so you can “take their place.” Lots of people would be bored out of their minds playing golf all day.

        • Anon

          Yep. I get it. It’s happening in government law too — older people aren’t retiring so there are few promotion spots to senior levels. Yet I don’t feel they HAVE to retire just so someone else can take their spot — while I’d like their spot, I have no right to push them out. Maybe I’d feel different if they were 90 and just couldn’t do the work — but for the most part people are working until 70 or 75, not 95. And I just think times have changed — many people don’t physically NEED to retire at 65 the way they used to — probably because of how medicine has changed, as well as more knowledge about working out/eating right etc.

          • Anonymous

            I also think there are a lot of people who can’t afford to retire yet. I know several folks who wanted to retire by now, but took a big setback with the recession a decade ago and are trying to make up for those losses. Also, people are living longer but that comes with its own complications. Now you need an extra decade+ of living expenses and hope that it doesn’t all go to paying for very expensive long term care options.

        • Anon

          Yeah it sounds bad, doesn’t it? I’m not going to argue that. But they’re not really working…they’re letting the mid-level folks handle all the hard stuff and then just present their work. And a lot of times, they invent “projects” (let’s redo the legal website!) to demonstrate their value when everybody under them is drowning with work. This was just my experience. I’m so glad I left.

          • Anon

            Yeah, we have a couple of people like that at my job. They have basically retired in place, and do no work. It’s frustrating to see senior people like that.

        • anonymous

          not ageist and entitled…poster is just stating facts that in some cases you have to jump ship in order to get promoted and move ahead….just reality in many lines of business/careers.

      • Anon

        Wouldn’t a lawyer with 30 years experience be 55 or 60ish if they took time off before law school? Are you saying 55 or even 65 year olds should be pushed out so you can be promoted? Because karma . . . do you think you’ll want an age related layoff at that age because some 35 year old NEEDS to be promoted?

        • Anon

          No, I’m not. I don’t wish they would be laid off. I wouldn’t wish that on anyone. I wish they would retire on their own. But they won’t … so I left. And a lot of my colleagues at my level have left as well. Basically, the department is changing from a tiered organization to one with very, very senior attorneys and then a bunch of very junior ones. It’s all fine.

          • anonymous

            I saw exactly this happen in a large global tech company where very senior/more mature resources just don’t move on…the middle tier leaves to get a better job elsewhere and the company is hiring very junior/out of college resources to build from the bottom up….there is no middle left, there is a talent drain/exit and the company is declining as a result. They do an early retirement RIF every year to get some 59+ to move on….their salaries and benefits are great so why go anywhere?

          • Anonymous

            We are having this issue at my organization. We have a bunch of people nearing or past retirement age (most of whom are just phoning it in), a bunch of brand-new people who don’t know anything, and very few people in between with solid skills and experience to actually do the work and provide leadership.

    • Anon

      So I go back and forth on this. Yes when I was in biglaw, I did feel sad for those men who were age 70+ or 75+ STILL working. It was worse at my firm which had a mandatory age 65 retirement (and therefore the firm had no business acumen at all) — you HAD to retire whether at age 65 whether you had no book or your book was worth 100000 billion. BUT if you insisted you didn’t want to retire, you could stay and take the demotion to Counsel. So there were all these men who went from being chair of litigation to a mere counsel and STILL kept at it for another 10+ years and obviously it wasn’t about money because they had been partner at a v25 from age 35-65. For some it was power/ego, for others you could tell that despite having wives and kids, they had NO other interests besides work including family. And sad part is we could see the next generation of men who were age 50ish at the time, setting up their lives the same way; these were the men who openly complained about “ugh my wife drags me on vacation with the kids 1x/yr” or “my teen is soooo hard to be around” — and are much much happier in the office than at home.

      Yet OTOH on the theme of yesterday’s question, I honestly have seen people in my family/family-friend circle retire and I don’t like the effects of retirement. You can see the decline — a decline that is NOT visible in all the law partners I know who are working at age 70+, my 71 year old cardiologist who is chair of cardiology at a major university, or my parents nearly 80 year old engineer neighbor who not only works 40 hrs/wk but also commutes 3 hrs/day for the job.

      IDK if part of it is cultural or just the circle I know. I’m Indian and it feels like none of my family/extended family/family friends have ANY interests or hobbies — and they had plenty of time to cultivate interests/hobbies bc they were not doctors working 100 hrs/wk for their careers, all had 40 hr week engineering jobs with none of the “being available at the drop of a hat” that you have in law or medicine. Yet they basically went to work, came home, and raised kids and even though the “kids” are now in their 30s-40s, they haven’t developed hobbies in the interim 20 years as empty nesters either. IDK I just think a life that revolves around 3 meals + playing on the ipad + reading the newspaper + watching Bollywood — is just not good for you long term. And yet for me I think the culture part is that they all thought it’d be like the old country. This is what their parents did in retirement and yet their lives felt “full” bc they married off their kids (arranged) at age 22 or 25 or whatever, lived with their sons, and life was full because GRANDKIDS and multi-generational housing. I feel like this circle — in their heart of hearts — thought it would be the same for their Indian-American kids in the U.S. Except the “kid” generation that’s aged 30-40 now grew up in America — most didn’t go for the arranged marriage to someone of their exact culture; some didn’t marry; some married and divorced; some married American; some didn’t have kids; some decided they weren’t settling in NJ because their dream job was in San Francisco or Manhattan — places where you can’t necessarily have the room for additional family members in your home and/or your retired parents can’t necessarily afford to get their own place; some married Americans who are like — inlaws living with us, hanging with us every day after work WTH!? Now you can sense a loneliness/unhappiness that you feel bad about but you can’t MAKE a grown adult be involved. Maybe I’m naïve but I think a lot of these problems could be ameliorated if you simply are someone who likes to spend 5 hrs/day on a golf course 3x/wk or goes on a 3 hr hike, 2x/wk.

      Honestly I fear for my own retirement. Age 39 – single no kids and probably staying that way. Part of me thinks — keep working for life (or more likely — buy a small business within 5-10 yrs of retirement so you can work w/o fear of layoff, can work as much as you want etc.). Bc I can see myself going down the miserable lonely path of retirement. As much as I’d like to hike/play golf/travel at that age — I have some fears about those being possible or not — see reference to cardiologist above. And I don’t really have low impact in home interests like art or whatever.

    • Vicky Austin

      My dad just retired, over a year before his sixtieth birthday, because he was just done. A lot of numbers fell into place for him to be able to make that choice, including the fact that my mom still works and is likely to do so for a number of years more. She’s one of those people who physically cannot do nothing. Her dad was the same way. He had a casual, self-driven sales business up to the day he died. Literally, he was in the hospital for about a week and still sending emails. I don’t think that’s quite comparable to insisting on remaining in a law office until you’re 75+ though. He had long since retired from official office work and conducted his business out of his basement office.

    • Senior Attorney

      My husband is about to turn 72 and he is still working. He is one of two partners in a boutique speciality firm, and for the most part he enjoys his work and he works a VERY sensible schedule — bills about 100 hours a month, works pretty much 9 to 5 and almost never on the weekends. Most definitely doesn’t derive all of his identity from work. (If you woke him out of a sound sleep and asked “who are you?” he’s almost certainly respond “I’m a cyclist!”) He’s super active in the community, rides his bike 20-30 miles at least twice a week, we take quarterly vacations, and so on, but as Anon at 11:01 points out there’s only so much leisure stuff you can do (at least without spending BOATLOADS of money).

      Why does he continue to work? A few reasons:
      — I have four years to go to age 65 and he doesn’t see the point of hanging around the house by himself while I’m working.
      — As noted above, we like to spend a lot of money and why not keep it coming in while we can?
      — He has a loyal staff that has been with him for a long time and he feels an obligation to them. (A law firm is kind of like Downton Abbey — the “upstairs” people are there for the “downstairs” people just as much as the vice versa.)

      • Anon

        Yeah, I guess I feel like why you want to stop earning money prematurely when you’re still active? We enjoy our jobs and have plenty of vacation time to use for travel, etc. I certainly wouldn’t want to be billing 250 hours/month or pulling work-related all-nighters into my 70s, but if you have a good work-life balance, I don’t see a lot of point in leaving the workforce until you’re a lot older and less active. You’ll be bored, and you’ll probably regret losing the income stream. My parents are 75ish and still working, although they are probably going to cut back to officially part-time soon. They’re doing REALLY well financially, in no small part to their decision to work past traditional retirement age.

    • Small Law Partner

      I think it is not knowing what else they would do with their time and liking the power that comes with whatever they are doing.
      That being said, I can’t really understand that on a personal level. I really like my job, and think I am good at it, but I am currently set to drop the mic on that and retire at 53 (42 now). I often get asked “what will you do all day?” That baffles me. Simply, all the things I cannot do or cannot do as much as I would like because I have to spend time working. I’m an avid surfer, cyclist, swimmer, and runner, and hope to take up other things in retirement like golf, tennis, etc. I also want to spend more time in the gym. I’m also very into cooking and baking, and want to have hours each day to spend doing that. I want to spent more time with my husband. I want to take long trips all around the world. I also have some legal causes I am passionate about, and would like spend time on those too. I hope to have 40+ years of doing just this stuff, no work.

  14. Housecounsel

    I thought this was the perfect dress but zoomed in, and I think the hardware cheapens the look.

    • SSC

      All I can think about is how that hardware would be perfectly centered on my spare tire. Hard pass.

    • Anon

      It looks like it would be easy enough to cut off? Maybe? It’s hard to tell on my monitor.

    • Miss

      I ordered this dress during the 40% off sale but unfortunately haven’t tried it on yet. I had hesitations about the hardware but it looks nicer than I expected from the picture. I think it could be cut off and I’ll likely do that if it makes any noise (a personal pet peeve—I think clothes should be silent).

  15. Anxious Update

    Hi, I’m the poster from earlier this year who posted about object relations theory in therapy, crying uncontrollably for hours for no apparently major reason, and (real or perceived) communication issues with SO. I just wanted to thank everyone again for the helpful thoughts and advice, and update that things took a month or two to turn around, but are so so much better.

    My new therapist is amazing, and I loved loved CBT. New therapist is not the handholding type, but helped put my thought processes into perspective detect where my anxious brain was magnifying the issues and retrain the trains of thoughts. Going off the Pill and taking zinc, selen and magnesium supplements to offset the copper buildup from taking hormones — apparently this is highly correlated with wild emotional mood swings according to the doc — probably helped too. I considered medication, but doc and therapist were both against it, given some other health issues I had, and the likelihood that that and the Pill contributed to the anxiety.

    Of course, I’m still the anxiety-prone person that I ever was (and still exploring the many belief systems that I built up over the years that contributes to it), but no longer feel helpless and wound like a top. Life feels so much more manageable. SO is also taking Gottman workshops and reading up on nonviolent communication, and we have had so much improvement in the way we both react to stressful situations that I’m finally relaxed enough to enjoy the perks of the relationship.

    I may still pursue the medication option if the need arises in the future, and would have pursued it if things hadn’t drastically improved by week 4 of the new regimen. But for now it feels like things are mostly under control, and I’m actually better able to distance myself from and put into perspective the generally anxious thoughts that have been flitting around in my head since age 3. Thank you so much for the wonderfully supportive community here that sent good thoughts, helped me look into CBT, and keep things in perspective when I felt most trapped.

  16. Anon

    Anyone have experience with/recs for buying lab-grown diamonds (ready jewelry, not loose stones)? I’m in the market for an eternity band for my right hand and would prefer to spend less, but some reviews I’ve seen for various sites make me nervous that I’d be misled and end up spending $$$ for CZ. TIA!

    • The original Scarlett

      I’ve had good luck with moissainite.com – I’ve never had the stones checked by a jeweler but they sparkle in a way CZs don’t

      • Anon

        Moissanite is not a lab grown diamond, it is a completely different stone that sparkles like fire instead of rainbow colors. It is a good diamond alternative. A lot of people see “lab grown diamond” and think “fake diamond”. No, a lab grown diamond is chemically identical to a mined one only more perfect.

        And cubic zirconia does not look like real diamond.

        You want a company like Brilliant Earth.

        • Q

          Anyone know what accounts for the price difference between loose stones at Moissanite Co and Brilliant Earth? Seems the latter charges twice as much as the former for a similarly sized Moissanite.

    • gouda

      No direct experience but I lightbox jewelry is owned by deBeers. I assume they’d really like to avoid the negative publicity which would come by selling CZ.

  17. NYC Restaurants

    We are attending a family wedding on Long Island on Thanksgiving weekend, and we have free time on the Monday night after that weekend. I would like to take my teens into NYC for dinner – any suggestions on something they might like? It’s overwhelming! It will probably be about 8 people total, and my teens are 14 and 16.

    • Anonymous

      My teen’s favorite restaurant on our last NYC trip was Blue Ribbon Sushi. The original location, which does not take reservations but is worth the wait.

    • Anonymous

      I would only go somewhere you can get a reservation with a group that big near the holidays

  18. Anon

    Shopping help. I’m looking for a quilted jacket in plus size. Basically I’d like a Burberry quilted jacket that’s available in plus and cheaper ha! I like the Burberry look because it’s light-weight (trying to use this jacket for fall), and simple and classic look. Can anyone find this?

    • Miss

      I have a quilted jacket from Eddie Bauer that I like (from Costco either last year or the year before). It replaced a similar one from Lands End. I would imagine they both carry plus sizes.

    • CPA Lady

      Talbots usually has these! I have a quilted vest from them that is great. They have a wide range of sizes.

  19. International Associate Positions

    Has anyone gone the route of applying to “international associate” positions in a US firm in the US as a foreign trained attorney? Can you share your experience of how you went about getting the position? I know the easiest route to get the job is to have a partner from your home law firm reach out to their contacts in US firms, but unfortunately not an option for me as home firm no longer wants to send its associates abroad. I specialize in M&A but am not from a UK, commonwealth or Latin American country, so many of the postings (such as L&W’s international associate programme) don’t apply.

  20. Anon

    Based on all the love for MM LaFleur here, I’ve just ordered my first piece – one of the jardigans. It arrived yesterday and it’s wonderful, but it has a really strong chemical odor. I know this is dry-clean only – any tips for getting rid of the smell without taking it to the cleaners? I’ve hung it up to air out, but the whole upstairs is just permeated with the smell. Any advice is appreciated!

      • Anonymous

        Yes, I have 3 jardigans (different colors) and none have ever smelled that I recall! They usually have great customer service so it’s worth a call.

    • Anonymous

      1. Spray with vodka, leave to air out overnight
      2. Steam
      (not necessarily in that order)

    • Anon

      Late reply, but I’ve ordered several things from them before and today received an order and same thing – very strong chemical odor that I’ve never experienced before. They might have a specific warehouse problem.

  21. Anon

    Any advice on applying to legal jobs in a completely different area of the law? I’m an experienced litigator in a government agency and am looking to leave litigation. I’m in a particularly niche field which is both emotionally draining after so many years and doesn’t lend itself to other jobs. The only way to get another job is to switch to a different type of litigation, but I’m interested in broadening my search. I’m interested in things like real estate or employment, all within government agencies in my city. I know that I would likely lateral in salary. Has anyone here ever done something like this?

    • Cover Letter!

      I work at an organization where most experienced legal applicants come from other areas of the law. In addition to networking, making connections, and learning about the new area, I would make sure to tell your story in a cover letter. I find it totally odd when someone applies to my roles without explaining why they are looking to leave a law firm to come to our much different type of practice/organization. A generic cover letter typically does not warrant an interview for me, while a compelling cover letter will draw me to a candidate I might otherwise discount.

  22. Anonymous

    Anyone succeeded at a side gig while working demanding hours and taking care of kids? I am trying to keep up my passion of writing and would eventually like to turn this into a full-time career, but I am jr at a biglaw firm and am having a really hard time finding the time to write between my job, trying to stay healthy (both eating and finding time to exercise), maintaining a semblance of a social life and chores etc. When I do have some time, I don’t have any energy left because my job drains it/I feel guilty for not investing that time into other things such as trying to find someone to date. I don’t actually have kids, but I have a 4 month old puppy (I realize that these are VERY different things, please don’t fixate on the analogy), so I am thinking that those with kids might have good juggling strategies for when you have someone depending on you that can’t really occupy themselves for long. My goal is to eventually leave law and write full time, but I can’t do that until I’ve actually written the book (to say nothing of the numerous other steps that I will have to take in between those two careers). TIA!

    • lsw

      Can you combine any of those things? Exercise by running with your dog, or take an exercise class with friends. Meet for lunch with friends during the day or meet for coffee at the dog park while your dog runs around. Cook/meal prep with a friend on Sunday and split what you make.

      Also, limit time on your phone (if you haven’t already). I find that after a day of work/kids/cooking/whatever, I tend to lay on the couch on my phone for longer than I need when I should either just go to bed or do something I like, like reading. Landing in the default was a habit I had to break.

    • emeralds

      My career is not that demanding and I don’t have kids, but I do write a lot. The ways that I make that happen are: waking up at 5:30 so I have a 45-60 minute block in the morning; eating at my desk and taking my laptop to a coffee shop or library to write for 30-45 minutes as my lunch break (or just shutting my door for 20 minutes) (and obviously this can’t happen every day, but I try to do it more days than I don’t); and trying to get in a 1-2 hour block every weekend day before my SO wakes up. I’ve had to accept that after a day at the office + exercise + household maintenance, I just can’t do anything requiring mental effort after I get home.

      And don’t discount the value of 20 minutes, if that’s as much time as you can get your pup to shut up and leave you alone for! You may not get your novel written that way, but just having a regular writing practice has value in its own right.

      Like lsw says, I also combine stuff as much as possible–not necessarily to free up specific time in my schedule to write, but just so I can feel like I’m getting some level of fulfillment in the right balance of areas. I don’t do happy hour much, for example; I’m a lot more likely to meet a friend to walk our dogs together or go to a yoga class.

      But I mean, it’s hard, even without a demanding job. Writing is a time-intensive activity by its very nature, and you can’t multitask when you’re doing it.

    • Anonymous

      You’re trying to do too much. Being a junior associate in biglaw is an all-consuming job. And a puppy and dating are super time consuming, too. Maybe you can carve out an hour every couple of days to write, but I wouldn’t try to write a book right now. You’re just going to frustrate and discourage yourself.

      I know people in small law firms that have gone back to school or had side gigs while working. If you’ve been in biglaw for a couple of years, you might think about moving to a smaller firm with better hours that will allow you time to pursue your writing.

      • Ellen

        She already has the puppy, but not anyone to date. I suggest she walk the puppy in the park, making sure to bring poopie bags with her. If there are decent men around, having the puppy walk around gives her a chance to walk around to meet these guys. If any exist, she can always have the puppy be friendly to them by having some treats she can give the guy to give to the puppy. When Rosa was in junior college, she had a puppy which she always brought to the campus when she was going to walk him. She met a lot of guys that way, and that is why Ed went out of his way to scoop her up quickly, before other guys could get to her. Ed was no dummy, as she has now given him 4 children! Ed will be financially responsible for their well being for the next 18 years or so! YAY Rosa!

    • Rainbow Hair

      Here’s what I do. I’m throwing this out there because it’s taken me a WHILE to hit a stride that I like. (It’s not technically a side hustle because I won’t do it for money, but it’s a hobby at which I’ve become really pretty skillful in the past year.)

      Weekday life: Wake up, snuggle kid. Husband does lunch packing while Kiddo and I have breakfast. I go to work, Kiddo goes to school. I get to the office at 7:45-ish and leave around 5-ish (in-house). If there’s downtime at lunch (I never go out for lunch) I get online and watch tutorials/daydream about my next project). I work out after work, either before dinner or after Kiddo is asleep. About 1/3 of the time I take Kiddo w/ me to the gym and she’s a little annoying but also we’re together. Aside from my quick gym time, I try to be fully present for the 2-3 hours between work and bedtime that I get w/ Kiddo. I do extra pushups before bed.

      Side Project: Kid goes to bed, I go to the garage and sew. I can get in a good hour or two, but honestly sometimes it’s three or four and I go to bed far too late. I watch (or rather listen to) TV on my laptop while I’m sewing, so it’s kind of relaxing? But also, I find sewing so so energizing. Like I lie in bed trying to figure out how to construct a cowl or whatever, and I love how it feels to think through problems and solve them, and then to turn fabric into *things*! If it felt like a slog, I know I wouldn’t do it. I am an extremely fast showerer and I blowdry my hair in the AM, so I can go from sewing in the garage to sleeping in like 8 minutes.

      Rest of Life: I have a stay-at-home spouse, so I honestly don’t do a ton of chores. I catch up on laundry and errands on the weekends. I have a semi-scheduled social life, in that I’m in the leadership of a club that meets 2 or 3 times a month. I don’t sleep enough on weekdays, so on weekends I either sleep in or nap, and on Sundays I spend 2 hours in a workout class, which could be social if I made more of an effort. I don’t sew on weekend nights, usually, because I try to do fun stuff with my husband. I travel for work and get no sewing done then.

      Those 2+ hours a night, more than half of my nights… it adds up to a lot of time! Most importantly, it’s fulfilling and that makes it habit forming. Also, if law isn’t your Dream Job, you might be a great candidate to move to an in-house gig like mine, which will afford you a lot more time for your passions.

    • Anon

      I’m a lawyer-turned-writer, it’s definitely possible even if you haven’t written an NYTimes bestseller. Maybe your dream is really being a novelist, in which case I think you’re smart to not quit before you sell a book, but there are lots of other kinds of writing jobs besides being a novelist. Just throwing that out there.

      • Anonymous

        I’m not the OP and not a lawyer … I’ve done some copywriting/content writing but would like to level up to better markets (& also explore creative writing.) Do you have any book/forum/organization (or other recommendations) for advice about Finding a niche and developing a writing business or steps to prioritizing/completing projects?

    • Anon

      If your law career gives you financial ability to do so, outsource some things for now – cleaning, get groceries delivered, a few days a week of dog walking, order meal kits or those healthy prepared meals you can get that are ready to simply warm up.
      Then, remember it’s a marathon and not a sprint. I’d try to work backwards – how long do you anticipate the book will be, can you average 500 (or 300, or ?) words per day, and how long do those 500 take you to write? Can you find time to write 3,500 words per week? Set a realistic weekly word count for yourself and then try to estimate a date of completion on the manuscript. I have a book completely outlined, and have gotten several sections mostly written. It sat for a while, and now that summer’s over, I’m back to it. I try to write for 45 to an hour in the morning when I first wake up, no editing. I put words on the screen, and then I go over it again later that night. I find it easier to look at that later when my brain is turned on, because there are words there and I’m just moving them around or rewriting them. I’d love to have a manuscript that I’ve finished, rested, edited, and had reviewed by a couple smart friends by next March, then wade into the world of having it workshopped by people who know what they’re doing, and start to figure out publishers.

      • +1

        +1 to the outsourcing. In biglaw and have a puppy. I use a lot of my disposable income to have my dog well-taken care of while I do hobbies (ex. our dog walker will pick up dog from daycare while I am at the gym, she’ll be fed and sleeping when I get home). I have special time with her on the weekends and I adore her to pieces, but I have found that for her to get the stimulation and care she needs, four days of daycare and two incredible walkers is sufficient. We pay about the same as the most affordable childcare in our MCOL city, but it’s worth it. It’s like having a nanny for your dog. It helps to give me my own leisure time, for ex., on Sundays, I am usually home and relaxing, but our dog walker still comes by in the morning and spends time with her because I am wiped from the week.

    • Anon

      It’s Nanowrimo season! Even if what you write is terrible, it’s a great way to build good habits with a self-imposed deadline. I won twice, both while working full time as a criminal lawyer (3-5 court days a week).

    • Coach Laura

      I have taught business and finance classes online (undergrad and graduate level) for over ten years while working and raising kids. I also got my masters at night while working with kids. With these types of activities, they have their own built-in deadlines whereas writing (my next goal is to write a book) doesn’t have external deadlines so I’m struggling.

      For me, if I wait until after work and getting home I find I don’t write – the day drains it from me. Walter Mosely’s book “This Year You Write Your Novel” talks about setting a schedule, inviolate, and writing every morning without fail. So that’s my next goal- writing at 5:00a.m. now that my kids are out of the house.

      There was a reader here who was an attorney and a mom who has many published novels – and started with Pig and Barley series when she was working full time. Mae Wood (a pseudonym). I can’t find her tips but I think she just went to coffee shops and wrote. She has a facebook page so you could check it out and see if she has tips.

      So if you can’t get up early and are wiped out at the end of the day, perhaps write in 10-20 minute chunks on breaks at work.

      And as others mentioned, its almost Nanowrimo month so if you sign up and participate it may spur you to greater progress.

  23. Anon

    Can anyone recommend a source for plus sized suits and blazers that aren’t tents, and that won’t break the bank? As my older suits have worn out I’ve started wearing more dresses and skirts with sweaters and jardigans, which are more comfortable on my post-menopausal, previously size 14-16 now more like 18-16W body. I’ve looked at some photos from professional events lately, and feel like I need to step up my game a bit. But so many of the jackets I try on are way too big around the middle, and my tailor tells me there’s only so much she can do to add more shape to them.

  24. Anonymous

    I just got invited to a Halloween party this weekend with my SO. Anyone have any ideas for a very easy couples costume?

    • lsw

      My friends dressed as each other and it was creepily effective. (They are a M/F couple fwiw.)

    • Vicky Austin

      We’re doing Leslie Knope and Ben Wyatt because they’re really easy to do with office clothes. You could mix and match with Chris or Ann, too.

    • Anonymous

      I did Green With Envy with an ex. I wore a green dress and he wore a name badge that read “Envy.”

    • Abby

      Our go-to backup costume in college (when for some reason, everyone had more than 1 costume and went out several nights for halloween) was girl & boy scout. DH actually is an eagle scout and used his old shirt/vest & hat. I bought a vest on ebay, wore a white tank and tank shorts with sneakers.

    • No Problem

      My friends came to a Halloween party once dressed as Jake from State Farm and Flo from Progressive.

    • Worry about yourself

      Wayne and Garth from Wayne’s World? You can get most of the stuff you need from Amazon if you have Prime.

    • Anon

      Characters from a tv show you like? We’re going as Janet and Fancy Derek from The Good Place

    • Small Law Partner

      We’re doing Trinity and Neo from the Matrix as we have many years – easy for us since my husband looks a lot like Keanu sans that terrible beard, and I at least have short dark hair.

    • Anonymous

      I like the Roe v. Wade one I saw (one person carries an oar and the other wears rain boots.) Or salt and pepper, a fireman and a dalmatian, superman and Lois Lane, Danny and Sandy from Greece if you already own enough leather lol. I love puns so something like deviled eggs where one of you dresses as a devil and the other as an egg.

  25. lsw

    What is a leggings-alternative that would be maybe halfway between leggings and pants? I’m thinking like a heavy ponte cigarette pant, maybe? Does that exist? Looking for casual wear (obviously). I don’t find leggings comfortable but I want something tighter on the body than a jogging pant.

    • Anon

      I have Betabrand dress pant yoga pants. They might have something a bit more casual design but in similar fabric.

      • CHL

        Agree – I love their workpants. they have a side button and zipper but the whole apparatus is stretch. very comfy. fabric is substantial. I recommend sizing up if you have thighs.

    • Anon

      Agree – I love their workpants. they have a side button and zipper but the whole apparatus is stretch. very comfy. fabric is substantial. I recommend sizing up if you have thighs.

    • Anonymous

      I found slim leg ponte pants at Talbots several years ago. I loved them so much I bought black and navy. They have a front zipper. I like wearing them to work with a longer blazer and add knee high riding boots when cold.

    • christineispink

      not quite as skinny as a legging but I’ve been enjoying the lululemon “on the fly” pant. depending on how skinny your legs are they might fit like a “jogging pant” (but certainly not like sweatpants). I find them cut closer to the cropped ankle pants that have been popular for years now. leggings don’t work for me as I have the “athletic calves” so was happy to find another option. elastic/drawstring waistband though, in case that’s a dealbreaker. I got two of the darker colors (olive green and black) and wear them to my casual/business casual office with nicer tops and cardigans (that cover the drawstring). really great for travel (comfy for planes/trains/etc.) and I haven’t done it but they’d probably be easy to handwash in a sink or something.

  26. Anon

    Can you roast eggplant? If so can someone tell me how — in a very simple manner as I rarely cook? I’m guessing put oil on the bottom of the pan (so the pan isn’t a burnt mess at the end), cut up some small pieces of eggplant and put into pan + add salt. Anything else? Any other spices that would be good? How long would this take in the oven at what heat? I’m in the mood for eggplant with hummus and I’d like to do this as simply as possible w/o making too much of a mess.

    • Anon

      I think Serious Eats blog had a post on this. They are usually good about explanations.

    • Anon

      ABSOLUTELY! It’s my favorite thing to do with eggplant, I eat it right off the pan. Oil and salt is all you need, throw it in the oven. I usually do slices, but you could definitely do cubes as well.

    • Skipper

      Before you get started, you’ll want to heavily salt your cut eggplant and let it sit in the fridge for twenty or thirty minutes. You can also soak it in salty ice water for about that amount of time. Then rinse it thoroughly. The salting step knocks out some of the bitterness you sometimes find in eggplant. Pat it dry, toss it with a smidge of olive oil, salt and pepper it, and bake it at 375 for around 45 minutes. Tastes really vary on how roasty eggplant should be, so feel free to cook it more or less to please yourself. If you’re eating it with hummus (or in?), I like cracked red pepper, fresh oregano, or zattar. I also like throwing in some sliced onion when I toss it with olive oil.

      • Anon

        I disagree and have never found the pre-salting step necessary. It’s just more work.

        • Nati

          I disagree – I’m with Skipper – I have found that presalting really changes the flavour and texture for the better. Maybe it depends on the size of the eggplant (larger ones can be tougher if not salted) or the age (older ones can be more bitter), but I really think it makes a difference.

    • Rainbow Hair

      I also love roasted eggplant (and roasting is my favorite way to cook most veggies)!

      The other posters have got it down, so just a few additions. (1) I read somewhere to peel it like a zebra — a little peel left in stripes — and I find that pleasant. (2) I find the easiest way to get it cooked evenly is to cut in cubes, maybe 1″ on each side. Then toss with oil rather than putting on the bottom of the pan, like you’d toss a salad w dressing. (3) cook longer than you think you need to — I find that if I take it out at the time when I’m like “ugh it must be done!” its good, but if I leave it in for 20 more minutes, it’s effing amazing.

  27. Books

    Need book recs for international flight. Mainly want light reading as I get easily distracted on a flight. TIA!

      • Anon

        Especially if the plane is taking you to Singapore! I wasn’t actually a huge fan of that book (loved the movie though) but it really made me want to take a trip to Singapore.

  28. Flattering sweaters

    Any leads on cute sweaters for an hourglass figure? I’m specifically looking for a cropped twist hem sweater or cross hem sweater, which I could wear with high rise jeans or pencil skirt. Also open to other leads! My waist is my favorite (body) feature and I really dislike the baggy trend that’s everywhere. TIA!!

  30. Parfait

    By the way, you can stack the Talbots FRIENDS 30% off order total code with TREAT40, which is good for 40% off one full price item. Thank you, Honey app!

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