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Our daily workwear reports suggest one piece of work-appropriate attire in a range of prices.
A black turtleneck is never going to be the most exciting piece of your wardrobe, but mine certainly gets a lot of use between November and March. This one from Halogen is substantial enough to be worn on its own, but thin enough to be layered under dresses and sweaters.
I’ve been wearing mine with midi skirts and under the occasional sheath dress. Sadly, this is a piece that you’re not going to want to put in the dryer (ask me how I know), but it was less than $20 to replace it, so I suppose I’ll survive.
The top is $17.97 at Nordstrom Rack and comes in sizes XS–XL. It also comes in heather gray.
Calvin Klein has an option in plus sizes; it's available in 0X–3X in black and aubergine for $39.75 on sale.
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Sales of note for 9.30.24
- Nordstrom – Beauty deals through September
- Ann Taylor – Extra 30% off sale
- Banana Republic Factory – 50% off everything + extra 20% off
- Boden – 15% off new styles
- Eloquii – Extra 50% off sale
- J.Crew – 50% off select styles
- J.Crew Factory – Up to 60% off everything + 50% off sale with code
- Lo & Sons – Warehouse sale, up to 70% off
- M.M.LaFleur – Save 25% sitewide
- Neiman Marcus – Friends & Family 25% off
- Rag & Bone – Friends & Family 25% off sitewide
- Spanx – Lots of workwear on sale, some up to 70% off
- Talbots – Fall Cyber Monday sale, 40% off sitewide and $5 shipping
- Target – Car-seat trade-in event through 9/28 — bring in an old car seat to get a 20% discount on other baby/toddler stuff.
- White House Black Market – 40% off select styles
Sales of note for 9.30.24
- Nordstrom – Beauty deals through September
- Ann Taylor – Extra 30% off sale
- Banana Republic Factory – 50% off everything + extra 20% off
- Boden – 15% off new styles
- Eloquii – Extra 50% off sale
- J.Crew – 50% off select styles
- J.Crew Factory – Up to 60% off everything + 50% off sale with code
- Lo & Sons – Warehouse sale, up to 70% off
- M.M.LaFleur – Save 25% sitewide
- Neiman Marcus – Friends & Family 25% off
- Rag & Bone – Friends & Family 25% off sitewide
- Spanx – Lots of workwear on sale, some up to 70% off
- Talbots – Fall Cyber Monday sale, 40% off sitewide and $5 shipping
- Target – Car-seat trade-in event through 9/28 — bring in an old car seat to get a 20% discount on other baby/toddler stuff.
- White House Black Market – 40% off select styles
And some of our latest threadjacks here at Corporette (reader questions and commentary) — see more here!
Some of our latest threadjacks include:
- What to say to friends and family who threaten to not vote?
- What boots do you expect to wear this fall and winter?
- What beauty treatments do you do on a regular basis to look polished?
- Can I skip the annual family event my workplace holds, even if I'm a manager?
- What small steps can I take today to get myself a little more “together” and not feel so frazzled all of the time?
- The oldest daughter is America's social safety net — change my mind…
- What have you lost your taste for as you've aged?
- Tell me about your favorite adventure travels…
LaurenB
A friend of mine is looking to move towards clothing rental subscriptions. She is probably a 12-14 and is in a leadership position (C suite) in a business casual environment. Recommendations?
Anon
Don’t bother. I’m that size and the clothing rental places simply don’t carry professional clothes in that range.
Big lawyer
I’m in that range, am in big law, and have been using RTR for non-suit business wear for almost three years now. It has gotten worse since covid, but it’s still totally functional for my needs (which don’t involve going into the office every day).
Anonymous
I’ve been doing Rent the Runway for several months and having a mixed experience. They have tons of clothing that works for my office, but often the items I want are unavailable. I’ve also had to send a couple of items back for quality issues and have frequent issues with returns where they say I’m overdue but tracking shows everything as being delivered and signed for back at RTR. I’ve really enjoyed mixing up my clothing but these issues have me wanting to either pause or cancel my account. Would love to hear from others if there’s another option they like.
Anonymous
Oops, should’ve added, I’m a size 10-12 and not had an issue with RTR having things in my size.
Anonymous
I don’t understand how RTR would be feasible for work clothes or formalwear. Both workwear and formalwear typically require alterations.
pugsnbourbon
My wife did Gwynnie Bee a couple years ago but it wasn’t that great. She did find one or two solid pieces, but it wasn’t worth it overall.
Anonymous
I’m a devoted RTR user. I’m around an 8-10, and was a 10-12 for a while and did not have issues finding things in my size. Another user mentioned quality issues which has not been an issue for me. Delivery times are slower now but other than that I think it’s fine. My tips:
– Use the favorites function to keep lists of what you like by occasion – there will usually be something available off your list (e.g., Winter Work; Summer Weddings)
– Check new arrivals every few days and add things you like to your lists
– Read the reviews. Every time I’ve had a fit issue it’s because I’ve ignored the reviews.
– Check photos to see if you see other people with your body type wearing it. If so, better chance of it fitting.
– Item availability varies by time of day. For example, I might see a sweater I like at 10pm, then go to reserve the next morning and it’s not there, and by evening it’s available again. So if you check every day in the morning, you might miss certain items. Checking at different times of day (e.g., instead of reserving in the morning, sometimes reserve at night) can help increase the variety of what is available to reserve.
– For work clothes, dresses, skirts and jackets are much easier to have success with. I find pants are trickier to fit generally so it’s not surprising.
Anonymous
There’s a big difference between 10-12 and 12-14 for RTR purposes, at least if she’s a tall 12-14.
I had an unlimited subscription for a few months in 2017 and had a hard time finding work appropriate clothes that were available. At the time, I was a larger size 12 and almost all of the work appropriate lines maxed out at 12. I have a very hard time fitting dresses, however, because I’m long waisted and have broad shoulders. If your friend doesn’t have issues with dresses off the rack, she may have more success.
Anon
Another RTR subscriber. (Size 10-12 so cannot address the availability of other sizes). I generally have no problems finding plenty of options, although there are certainly times when my first choice is not available. I find it works very well for dresses, sweaters, tops, and jackets (especially jackets) but not for pants because they so often need alteration. It is a bit pricey but less so when you back out the dry cleaning expenses. Also and perhaps obviously it is better for things you can wear multiple times without cleaning.
I have been seconded to a client to fill in for their GC and am finding it very useful to fill holes in my wardrobe when I do not want to buy new clothes for a temporary position.
I also get the annoying emails that my returns are late but have never been charged so I suspect a software issue where it takes a couple of days for returns to be fully processed.
Anon
Any recommendations on RTR items or brands you liked as a size 12 or ideally 16?
Ellen
Yay Elizabeth! Fruegal Friday’s! I love Fruegal Friday’s and this black turtelneck. For cute blondes, this is a must, as Elizabeth Holmes made this required clothing for others, especially now that it is getting colder out. The other plus is that the turtelneck prevents men from peering in to see our boobies.
I read an article in the ABA Journal today about law school student loan debt vs salaries.
https://www.abajournal.com/news/article/this-law-school-had-the-widest-gap-between-student-debt-and-graduate-earnings
It is sad that so many people have big debts to go to school, then they earn very little to pay the debt off.
I am lucky Dad paid for my schooling in DC, and I recommend that others continue to toe the line b/c there is nothing more rewarding then becoming a lawyer, whether in NYC or elsewhere. People look up to you and judges respect you if you dress well and are deferential to them.
I am going tomorrow to Nordstrom Rack in White Plains with Rosa, and I hope to get this turtelneck. Thank you, Elizabeth!
Anonymous
I’m hoping this is a fun Friday one, you all indulge my questions from the U.K.! Are extracurriculars and clubs in high school/college really such a thing as tv and film make them out to be? I went to a major U.K. university which had no real sports teams or clubs (it did have a rugby team). In high school we had a musical once every two years but you got a part for that one show and that was it. I was in the school orchestra which did a Christmas concert but was generally terrible, otherwise there was no clubs beyond a netball team.
Anonymous
At my school sports, especially football got a lot of attention. The marching band had a lot of people and participated in competitions. There were also people involved in theater and there were a few plays and musicals put on during the year. I graduated almost 25 years ago, so I’m not sure how things have changed with social media and the pressure to have extracurricular activities for college.
Cat
This varies wildly by geography. For example my cousins in Texas started going to high school football games with their friends in middle school, basically every home game (pretty sure they went to a few even younger to watch parents’ friends’ kids play), and attended big state schools with huge football programs.
But that was 100% not the case for my Pennsylvania upbringing… I didn’t attend a single football game in college, some kids went but it was not The Event of the Weekend or anything like that.
Most kids got involved in either a sport, music (band, orchestra, chorus, musicals), art, theatre or stage crew, or various and sundry “clubs” like debate, environmental, human rights (Amnesty International) etc. But nothing as intense as TV makes it appear… we did annual musicals, but High School Musical they were not :)
pugsnbourbon
+1, it’s going to vary by geography and overall SES of the school. I went to a small rural public high school and football, basketball and soccer were the big sports (but football was biggest). We had cheerleaders and a scrappy marching band, so aside from the player’s talent, it wouldn’t be that different from what you see on TV. We had a school paper that was kind of terrible (I say this as the erstwhile editor).
It was either my junior or senior year when girls’ games started being held on Fridays. Previously it had only been football or boys’ basketball games scheduled for Fridays, even though our girls’ soccer and basketball teams were better. This would have been 2003 or 2004.
Anon
I am an Old and never went to a HS football game b/c I played (poorly, but with enthusiasm) tennis, a fall sport, and they overlapped except for one Saturday homecoming game. Sitting in the stands in cold weather is not for me (vs playing where you can be warm). NOW, my understanding is that only very athletic kids are on teams and there are no casual athletes anywhere but very small teams. B/c I did not start my kids on 4x week tennis when they were in diapers, all they will ever be in my large city with very large middle and high schools, is recreational players.
Anon
My PA upbringing was very, very musical and there was an insane depth of talent. My youth orchestra section of 4 the year I graduated (in a city that now is more known for MAGA stupidity than culture, sadly) had one go to Curtis, one to Juilliard, one to Eastman and I went the military music route. My public high school had a pretty awesome musical theatre department and it’s where I got my love of playing in pit orchestras.
Penn State football was a huge deal to a lot of folks, but never was my or my family’s thing.
Anonymous
Yes. Mid-90s. I was a three-season athlete, participated in class leadership and school-wide student government, as well as county and state-wide student government, and was an officer of the Spanish club. I missed a lot of class to participate in all of these activities, which were excused absences. It was the basis for my college applications because I was a B+/A- student.I also attended various sports events and school plays and musical performances, sometimes as a student observer and sometimes as a representative of the school. Virtually everyone participated in something. We also had a very active Future Farmers of America and something similar for future business leaders. There was one day a month when meetings occurred during the school day and then meetings and events and practices both before and after school.
anon
Yes, in my Midwest state, extracurriculars are huge.
Lyssa
Love questions like this. I would say yes, for the people who are into them. I did marching band and theater in high school, and there was a lot of talk about those things being “life;” they were where I really put my energy and built relationships, while everything else was just filler. Same for sports and chorus, for the kids who did those things. But I’m sure plenty of kids were only tangentially aware of those things, too. Football was a big deal for some kids, an eye-rolling chore for my nerdier group, and probably barely noticed by others.
College was a different thing, though. I didn’t really do much in extracurriculars there, and didn’t really know many people who did. Some of the activities (sports, theater) seemed very all-encompassing and insular, so it was hard to make friends with those people or get involved casually.
Anone
I grew up in the Midwest, where football reigns – everyone’s social calendar basically revolves around football games. I now live in the SEUS. Football is huge down here too. But at the private school my son attended for 2 years, the lacrosse players were the most popular kids, maybe because their lacrosse team was one of the best in the state. At the public HS my kids now attend, the football players are like gods. My son still plays lacrosse and my daughter is on the crew team. A lot of her friends do volleyball or cheerleading. Most parents encourage their kids to do at least one sport. Theater and musicals are also really popular. Most schools do two per year, I think. They are always well-attended.
Anon
This is wild to me. From the NEUS, where the athletes who didn’t play baseball played lacrosse in the spring. Now in my SEUS city, lacrosse is a fancy rich kid sport (my NEUS town was very blue collar, so lax was for anyone who showed up). IDK that the prep school teams in my city are any good b/c there is less pressure to cut kids vs the huge public schools (where anyone playing is pretty much going to get a D1 school scholarship or admission based on sports talent –> they send the bad kids to Amherst’s football team vs Clemson’s football team, where the really good kids go).
Ribena
I love how specific the ‘cool kids’ are to each school. Someone I met through swing dancing told me the cool kids at her high school (in the north of England I think) were the bassoon players.
Anon
Hmm I have a hard time imagining that. Did a bassoon player relay this story?
Ribena
No, a violinist!
Anonymous
Exactly how many bassoonists were there at this high school? We had 360 in our band program but only two bassoons.
Anon
Totally a tangent but did you know most school orchestras can’t afford to buy a bassoon? So professional bassoonists have joined together to raise money to buy as many high schools a bassoon as possible. Otherwise there won’t be a next generation of bassoonists.
I think this story is cool, but I have yet to meet anyone who thought bassoonists were cool in high school. And I say this as a devoted former marching band member.
Anonymous
Hmm, at my high school everyone had to provide their own concert instruments, including bassoons. They only provided marching brass for instruments where the marching version was different from the concert version.
I wish I had been able to convince my kid to play either the bassoon or the viola. So many opportunities.
Anonymous
I am here for the bassoon threadjack. I have never played one but am ready to throw $25 to this cause because I am grumpy on this rainy cold day and it made me smile. Anyone know how I contribute??
Anon
Super late response, the campaign was called Save the Bassoon and you can Google to find their social media accounts and several news articles from when they started in 2015. The pandemic may have killed their efforts, though, because I don’t see anything more recent than 2019.
Anon
They were huge at my private school. Literally everybody did at least one club, and most people did more than one. Clubs mostly met at lunch so to some extent it was about having something to do during lunch time – like, maybe you’d be watching anime with the Animation Club on Mondays, working on props for a one-act play on Wednesday, and planning a fundraiser for an animal shelter with the student volunteer club on Friday. We had so many clubs and orgs that it was honestly unusual if someone didn’t belong to any of them – and it was easy to start a new one if you had an interest that didn’t have a current club.
We had a no-cut policy for sports, so virtually everyone was on a sports team as well even if they weren’t necessarily on the varsity squad. It was a participation-focused sports culture rather than a spectator-focused sports culture, which I think was actually really good. The message was that sports were for everyone, and you didn’t get more cred or recognition within the school for being on our championship varsity cross-country team vs. being on the JV basketball squad. We had pep rallies but they were inclusive of everyone (so it might be that the varsity baseball team was about to play in a championship but every single baseball squad, down to the noncompetitive JV C team, got to participate in the rally).
Arts stuff was mostly run through the school, so we had musical theater, standard theater, band, orchestra, and a rock combo, as well as multiple vocal ensembles. Those were mostly classes, though (you had to do an arts class at least one term per year in high school), so they weren’t really extracurriculars. But we did also have a theater club that did student-written work and a couple of student musical groups that weren’t run by the school.
Anonymous
I have a kid in high school. There is a cultural expectation that every kid will pursue a “passion.” My kid and all of her friends are each involved in one major extracurricular or co-curricular activity–choir, marching band/wind ensemble, school orchestra/youth orchestra, theatre, a travel sport, etc. Most of them also do one or two activities that are less serious, like debate, a minor school sport, a recreational sport, youth group, or scouts. Mine did gymnastics for up to 14 hours a week (which is actually low–at her level 18-20 hours was more typical) until she hit high school and found this incompatible with her courseload. She now does choir, art, math team (the limit does not exist!), and 4 hours a week of rock climbing team.
Then when you grow up, you are expected to suddenly give up all of your interests and devote yourself solely to work and supporting your children’s interests.
Anon
The juxtaposition between our expectation of upper middle class youth (a carefully curated selection of socially acceptable interests pursued with authentic passion) and upper middle class adults (limitless dedication to increasingly greedy jobs and increasingly intensive parenting) is jarring and I honestly hadn’t really been able to put my finger on it until you said this.
Anon
Somehow it’s greedy when UMC people do things? I grew up in a mostly immigrant blue-collar town and having one job was for suckers. People had two jobs and often a side hustle. The hunger to get ahead is almost tangible if you started with nothing and lacked stability.
Anonymous
I think she is saying that the employers are greedy.
Anon
OMG I was on the math team, too. We were a poor school, so we just showed up. The rich schools had class time and a teacher for this.
I know kids who were big into travel soccer to the point where it was their life. They were kind of lost in college without it and the parents wished a lot of their kids’ friends had spent more time on academics b/c college without a sport was just a lot of partying. The kids have rebounded (one is studying to be an EMT), but it was a journey with an abrupt stop.
Anon
Growing up in my NYC suburb, going to sporting events wasn’t as much of a “thing” but playing on sports teams was very common. Other extracurriculars were very popular as well. If you want to go to a top-tier university, it is expected that you will have multiple extracurriculars and hold leadership positions in some of them, so doing them is very common. For example, in high school, I was the head of the yearbook and literary magazine, in choir, team manager of a school sports team, did regular community service, and probably other things I’m forgetting. I went to an Ivy League.
Anonymous
Fun Friday question! I went to an international American school for high school so we had extracurriculars, but definitely more watered down than what American schools on American soil would have. We had sports (no American football – who would we even play against?!, but soccer, basketball, softball, table tennis), clubs (yearbook, Key Club, school newspaper, drama club, etc), and most everyone picked up an instrument or two.
In college in the US, I joined a cultural club, but not any sororities or career-focused extracurriculars. There were plenty of those offered at my state university, but I didn’t want to join.
Anonymous
I think it varies a lot by geography and school–the U.S. is HUGE compared to the UK and pretty heterogenous culturally. I went to a small public magnet school in SW Florida. We didn’t have high school sports because the school was too small or something, but orchestra was big and there were other clubs. Many of us joined clubs that didn’t really do anything in the hopes that it would help us look good on college applications. My husband teaches at a magnet high school in NYC, and they actually require their students to join at least one club for reasons that are unclear to him. Apparently his school has a popular football team, but if I wasn’t married to him I’m not sure I would even know high school football existed in NYC. Some sports are also much bigger in different regions, e.g., field hockey did not exist in Florida but swimming was so competitive that the high school teams were an afterthought.
Anonymous
PS – I went to a hippy small liberal arts school–Oberlin–where they literally invited every male attending the school to join the football team because no one was interested. Sports were not that popular, although we were an ultimate frisbee powerhouse apparently. It also has an extremely well regarded but somewhat seperate music conservatory, so those students were very musical and the arts in general, as well as protesting, were popular.
Anonymous
Oh and sororities and fraternities were banned, but the administration turned a blind eye to some historically Black sororities and fraternities that existed more informally.
Anon
Most of my friends in DST and AKA are solid adult women. It’s a shame that sororities have to be something done on the sly and not embraced.
Anonymous
Ha, I went to UCLA and protesting was also a very popular extracurricular activity. Even more so among the grad students.
Anon
From the northeast, my school was K-12 all on one campus but was pretty small (100 kids per grade). As a result, everyone kind of did everything. For example: I played 3 sports all 4 years of high school, I was in clubs (newspaper, debate, mock trial), and I was in the musical. I’m an average athlete and a terrible actor/singer, but I love that the way things were scheduled I could do a variety of activities.
My sophomore year we got lights on our football and field hockey fields and would occasionally have Friday night games. They made this change not bc we had a huge fan base but because like 90% of our students played a sport and if everyone had3pm games it was impossible to ever go to a friends game. Friday night football/hockey/basketball games were just catching on when I graduated (like we might have gone twice a year?), but I hear they’re hugely popular now.
Being at a k-12 school was cool because as a little kid you’d go to games after school (like As an elementary schooler I’d go watch my cousins games after school), and you kind of “knew of” the kids playing.
Anonymous
I went to a private boarding school in CT, so keep that in mind, but we actually had required athletics all three seasons. We had an especially good mens hockey team, with many students coming from Canada specifically to play hockey at our school. In the winter, some students got exemptions from playing sports to be in the winter musical production. We did not have a big football team when I was there, but football can be a huge deal at annoy schools.
Anon
Yes. I high school I was in marching band, the Key Club, and the FFA, and my activities with those groups, mostly on trips, represent most of my memories from high school. I played in the orchestra pit for a few musicals, which I could have done twice a year if I liked but the rehearsal schedule made my part time job impossible.
In college I was in a sorority and lived in the sorority for three of the four years I was there. I held various leadership positions and it taught me so much.
In terms of sports, sports can really dominate your school experiences if you’re into them. My daughter played a sport both in a club team and the high school team, was ultimately varsity captain at high school, and it was pretty much every weekend and most days after school.
Senior Attorney
So Cal, graduated mid-70s, HUGE public school with seemingly limitless pre-Prop 13 resources. Yes, there was something for everyone. Everybody went to football (fall) or basketball (spring) games on Friday nights, for sure. Then there were clubs and teams for everything. I was in theatre and vocal music, but there was band, orchestra, cheerleading, drill team, dance, debate, art, journalism, you name it. Oh, and a huge student government. It was a blast and I am still friends with some of my drama friends.
Mercifully, the College Admission Wars had not ramped up to the level they are today (UCLA was my safety school), so we mostly did them for love rather than resume value.
Anon
Yes my school was like this regarding football. Also in CA so post Prop 13, but the entire town came to football games. When prop 13 happened they said they’d no longer be able to light the football field but it must have been just a bluff, because the town was not ready to give up their Friday night football.
When I wore my school colors (which is something we did weekly!) and was off campus, adults would stop me to talk about the football team!
Jules
I’m a couple of years behind SA, and had much the same experience (although the big state flagship school was the default, definitely UCLA!) – big, affluent suburban high school, multiple sports every season and a club for nearly everything.
My 26-y-o went to a very small HS, fewer than 50 in the graduating classs. There’s no football team – the school is too small to have enough good players and it’s not a priority in our lefty/hippie college town. (The small college also does not have a football team.) The school still has sports each season, with soccer being the biggest, plus an acclaimed drama program, band, orchestra, Dungeons & Dragons club, chess club, mock trial team, speech and debate team, probably a few others.
Anonymous
Grew up in a wealthy NYC suburb, graduated public high school in 2001. Yes, for the elite/competitive college bound, clubs/sports/activities were totally a thing. For many kids, even not the competitive college bound ones, sports were a thing too. Our football team wasn’t great, but our cheerleaders were. Our boys and girls soccer teams and boys tennis team were state champions 3/4 years. Our high school had 2 drama performances- a fall play and a spring musical. It was A Production. Our school paper was a popular club and won all kinds of awards. Marching band was mandatory if you were also in advanced levels of band. There were pretty good! Orchestra and band were part of the curriculum. Our high school had 2 acapella groups. Kids did yearbook, key club, environmental club, that sort of thing. In fact, our high school had a time one day per week that was dedicated to “club time” so that kids who wanted to do a club but also played sports could make time for it. those that didn’t could sleep in and come an hour later.
Anon
Yep, marching band and school orchestra were mandatory, necessary evils in order to participate in the regional bands/orchestras i really wanted to do.
Seventh Sister
It varies a lot by region and students’ interest. Where I grew up, the prestige high school team wasn’t football – it was lacrosse. It wasn’t a rich-kid school, just a public school out in the sticks. My husband grew up in a part of CA where water polo was the most popular high school sport for boys. Our theater program was entirely extracurricular and pretty scrappy – no professional-grade sets or acting coaches. Theater was pretty nerdy, except for the musicals, when the super-snobby kids from the choir would deign to grace the rest of us with their sainted presence.
In college, I worked in the theater department for $ and worked on a bunch of student theater productions as a volunteer too (production design and some acting). I also did some volunteering and was a radio DJ, but those were very-low-commitment activities. None of this had anything to do with my major, I just liked being in plays.
Seventh Sister
Honestly, I think a lot of this has to do with the fact that we don’t really have a national standard curriculum or grading scheme, so an A from a public school in Vermont in English isn’t the same as an A from a private school in Oregon, but both kids can apply to the same college with similar grade averages. Activities are considered in college admissions for selective colleges, so that’s one reason for the popularity. We do have standardized college admissions tests, but a lot of universities are going test-optional and/or place less emphasis on these tests.
For kids who aren’t going to college or plan on going to a local place that is essentially open admission, activities like sports are often seen as a way to keep them involved in the school long enough to graduate.
As someone who is way, way more focused/interested in academics, I wish high school was organized in a different way, but it’s hard to change the structure as a single person with kids in school. And while I do look longingly at countries in Western Europe without all of this stuff, the American system does give kids a lot of chances to become “college material,” even if they don’t get motivated before they finish K-12.
Vicky Austin
I often feel like I had the last analog American childhood (graduated HS in a semi-rural area in the early 10s) and I ran track and cross-country, sang in choir, played piano in the jazz band, took 2 languages, edited the school paper and helped the photography team out some. Football games were frequent but not constant, but I never missed homecoming (when I was a junior/senior, I was part of the choir that got to sing the anthem before games). I never made a habit of basketball games until I dated somebody in the pep band.
College, again, never missed homecoming football games, otherwise only made a point of going to something if it was a rival school. Met my husband at one of the few basketball games I attended as part of something I was doing with student government, which I did for one year. The only other consistent extracurricular thing I did was to be part of a group of business students, but academics took up a much bigger portion of my time in college.
Anon
I’m looking for a dress to wear to my firm holiday party. It is a semi-formal event at a country club, and most of the women wear shorter dresses and the men wear jackets or suits. I’d like something somewhat festive – I’m a big fan of the holiday plaids. I’d prefer long sleeves. Budget is $200.
Cat
Kind of the oppos-te of plaid but I am in love with the cut of this velvet one from JCrew
https://www.jcrew.com/p/womens/categories/clothing/dresses-and-jumpsuits/boatneck-italian-velvet-dress/BD479?display=standard&fit=Classic&color_name=black&colorProductCode=BD479
30 or 40% off right now for F&F.
Anon
I love holiday plaids too, but I haven’t seen any this year that I’m crazy about. Even the Ralph Lauren options are meh. I do like this one from Wolf & Badger:
https://www.wolfandbadger.com/us/red-empire-line-dress-with-belt/
Also always like velvet options for festive, like the one above!
Vicky Austin
Modcloth has some fun things!
Anonymous
J Crew Factory and Vineyard Vines have holiday plaid dresses.
anne-on
I love this one (not plaid, but velvet screams holiday party to me). I’d also keep an eye on Draper James and Jcrew, they should have more options in a week or two:https://www.jcrew.com/p/womens/categories/clothing/dresses-and-jumpsuits/boatneck-italian-velvet-dress/BD479?display=standard&fit=Classic&color_name=black&colorProductCode=BD479
Cat
lol – that is the exact dress I recommended above. OP… take this as a sign!!
AnotherAnon
Is this too…trendy? https://www.reddress.com/products/a-silent-wish-black-multi-plaid-maxi-dress
Anonia
This post is timely. I’m looking for some turtlenecks that have wider necks. I have several cowl necks, but want actual turtlenecks for winter. I’m cusp sized, but apparently my neck is larger than average, and the couple I’ve tried feel much too tight. I do want to wear them under sweaters, so sizing up several sizes doesn’t work. Any recommendations?
Go for it
Same. I have had success with H&am ribbed.
Anon
They’re expansive, but I love the Dudley Stephens fleece turtlenecks (it’s high end fleece so it doesn’t pill at all or look like athleisure).
Anonymous
I am the black turtleneck work uniform poster from earlier this week and I feel Seen.
(Thanks to all who reminded me Elizabeth Holmes is a thing. I plan to wear mine with simple jewelry and layers. Sweaters and ponchos and wool blazers and my newly beloved Loft pintuck pocket pants)
Curious
I thought of that thread immediately when I saw this post!
Anon
+1. Happy being seen!
Anon
I will say that Elizabeth Homes in a thing in the demographic of this Board. As a test, I asked several people I know (including a couple of lawyers) and none of them had any idea who was was or what she wears.
Anon
I mean HBO did a documentary and there’s a wildly popular podcast and daily trial coverage, so I’m thinking you’ve got a sampling error.
Elegant Giraffe
I dressed up as Elizabeth Holmes for Halloween and, like, two people knew the reference.
Anonymous
I have not shopped at Victoria’s Secret in years. My holiday adopt a family has a teen (15yr) girl who’s first gift request is bra or underwear from VS. I am capped at $25/item or gift and $100 total per kid by the charity. (This year my budget will allow for $100 per kid so I will try for each kid something like $50 practical, clothes or requested supplies like bedding or a backpack, $50 fun).
Mom wrote teen is an adult size small/medium. Is a $25 gift card the only / best option here? Or is there a sale likely coming when I could get a bundle of M undies and she could exchange them? I’m concerned a gift card will cap her options instead of expand them.
Anonymous
I have a teen daughter and would be horrified if a stranger gave her anything from VS.
anon
Okay that’s great but it’s literally what the girl asked for. Presumably, mom knows what’s on the list and the charity obviously let it go through. Teens need underwear and bras and if mom can’t afford them, this is one way for her to get them.
anon
+1
Anon
Get a gift card from the ‘PINK’ side. It feels much more teen. This isn’t weird to me – it’s what a kid wants.
Op
Thank you! I didn’t think about the different store fronts. I agree that it might seem like an odd request, but if mom doesn’t have the funds, I totally understand a teen wanting this.
Anon2
Pink has some markdowns right now so it’s $20 for a pack of 5 pairs.
Anon
Yes, this. Be grateful your teen will likely never be in the situation of needing to receive bras/underwear from a stranger.
Allie
There but the grace of god . . .
Anonymous
I worked at a domestic violence shelter. Underwear are always a huge need for vulnerable families. No one thinks or feels comfortable to donate them!
Cat
She won’t get more than what *you* paid for the undies, so either way she’s capped at $25, right? I’d get the gift card so she can enjoy picking something out herself.
Anon
Gift card; their semi-annual sale starts the day after Christmas. She can get more for $25 after Christmas than before.
Anonymous
+1
Anon
Can you ignore the cap a little bit amd just pick up a few hints to go with the gift card? I wouldn’t think anyone will be checking that closely.
Anon
*and *things
Anonymous
Yeah I mean if the girl is desperate enough to need basic necessities from a stranger for Christmas then I would just buy her a basic bra or three. Poor girl.
Op
I would – but my own personal budget is capped at $100/kid, and I want to get her art supplies and other gifts she requested, too. (I like to have the kids open roughly the same number of items) The VS request is her top request so that’s what makes me think I’d like to try to honor it, just not sure in what way. I grew up without very much and I bet my mom would’ve purchased a body spray and been proud of giving me an item from the store.
Anonymous
Are you even allowed to give gift cards? IME gift cards and cash are usually forbidden for “adopt-a-family” gifts.
Allie
This. Also my understanding is that kids don’t always get to spend the gift cards themselves so items are better. I’d just buy some from the Pink side.
Op
The charity forbids gift cards for under 10 year olds, but I understand for 11+ they specifically allow gift cards because sponsors do not like to adopt families with teen kids. I haven’t bought anything in a store in a while – it seems that back in the day, if I bought 5/25 underwear, listed at $8 each, I could later exchange just one pair for anything else at $8 or less value. But retail has probably changed now so they know what I paid (plus she’ll have a gift receipt).
Ribena
Could you get her a more ‘bralette’/ sports bra type bra which will be more flexible for size?
Op
I love this idea and will go see what prices might be! Thank you.
Anon
Great idea to buy her a gift card but I really disagree with suggestions to buy her actual bras. You have no idea what size she is or what style suits her shape. Just get the gift card and let her pick out something suitable – it’s more fun for her that way too. No one like ill-fitting bras!
Anon
I agree with this. Let her shop the post-Christmas sales with a gift card.
Seventh Sister
One issue with a gift card is that she may not live anyplace close to a VS, or be able to order stuff online to have delivered. I’d go for something from the store with a gift receipt.
Anon
Apologies if I missed a discussion but… is anyone following the Kyle Rittenhouse trial? What a circus.
Anon
My take? Rittenhouse is obviously a moron, but he’s a kid. He isn’t Derek Chauvin, he isn’t those racist a-holes who killed Ahmaud Arbrey – he’s a sheltered, brainwashed teenager who panicked because he was somewhere he had no business being, trying to act like some brave hot shot. A bunch of white guys with too much time on their hands went in to “fight for” things that really had nothing to do with them, and this mess occurred. The surviving guy he shot was also there as a ‘medic’ and brought a gun that he didn’t have an active permit to carry. I see this as a series of tragic miscalculations, but I don’t see a murder charge sticking.
Plus the prosecutor is doing a terrible job. I wouldn’t be surprised to see a mistrial declared.
Anon
White men get to be kids well into their adulthoods, and black boys are forced to be men too early in childhoods.
Anokha
+1
Anonymous
this
CircularS
^^^ This. All day + forever.
Anon
Scanning headlines, so not in the weeds. Sort of surprised he was charged, so it’s as if the media or public pressure put the prosecutors up to this?
pugsnbourbon
Wait – he killed two people with an illegally-obtained gun and you’re surprised he was charged?
Anon
Explain the first-degree murder charge, Pugs. He shot people who were attacking him.
Anonymous
Self-defense is an affirmative defense. This means he has to admit that he killed the people and then prove the elements of self-defense. It doesn’t preclude the prosecutor from charging him.
anon
He’s been claiming self defense and he’s white. So yea, I’m surprised too.
Anon
A lot of the commentary is around the judge seeming to be too ‘pro defense.’ In an ideal world, more judges would be ‘pro defense’ in criminal trials, since the standard for conviction is supposed to be beyond a reasonable doubt. In reality, prosecutors win their cases 70 or 80% of the time, on far shabbier evidence than appears to be present here. I wish black defendants would get the same kind of judicial rulings / protection as Rittenhouse seems to be.
Anon
I agree with your main point here, but for this judge specifically, there’s being pro-defense and then there’s having a courtroom applaud a defense witness.
Anonymous
He asked the whole courtroom to identify themselves if they were veterans. The defense witness identified himself, and as I understand it, no one else did. Do you think the judge knew the witness was a veteran when he asked the question? It was a dumb thing to do, and made it appear he was pro-defense, but I am not sure it was his intent.
Anon
I don’t think he knew ahead of time, but a simple “Thank you for your service” would have been more appropriate than applause.
Anonymous
The judge has gone way, way beyond being “pro-defense” into the territory of heavily weighting the proceedings in favor of an acquittal.
Anon
I cannot imagine what the message will be if he gets off with nothing. Tamir Rice was killed for having a toy gun.
There is no planet where a black kid who had done this wouldn’t be behind bars already, best case, or in the worst/most likely case, shot by police on the spot.
Anone
You may be right, and it’s horrible and unfair that Tamir Rice was killed for having a toy gun, but that does not mean the jury should convict Kyle Rittenhouse. From what I have seen, it looks like self-defense. He should not have been there in the first place, but he appears to have been defending himself from people who were attacking him.
Anonymous
I live near Kenosha and sadly see him walking even though he was a direct threat to the public and showed no remorse afterward—he’s a Proud Boy hero. I think it’s disgusting how many people want to defend him.
anon
I used to wear turtlenecks frequently during the winter months and stopped at some point. Today I’m wearing a very soft, loose scarf, and turns I’ve become way less tolerant of having fabric close to my neck. Kind of a bummer. Guess I won’t be investing in turtlenecks anytime soon!
Anon
The older I get, the less I can stand having things around my neck. I won’t even wear short necklaces anymore.
H13
Help. My husband has been being extra overwhelmed recently with the mostly mundane things of being mid-career and caring for young kids (plus a pandemic, etc.). And I am too! He finds connection in venting to me and I appreciate that it helps him process. I struggle, however, because it feels like he is pouring the negative stuff into me to be rid of it. I know that is probably unnecessarily dramatic, but that is truly how it feels–like I absorb it. I think often times he wants to offload at inconvenient times for me like before bed or when I am about to head to work.
I know I need to address my own response/reaction and timing but I also feel like he has been very fragile lately so I hesitate to burden him with how this impacts me. Any advice?
Anon
If you can (affordability, COVID caution, etc.) hire a babysitter and do a date night or he can hang out with his friends. That is, of course, if therapy isn’t an option.
anon
I have recently been your husband in this scenario. I made some big life changes (changed a practice area at work to get away from toxic people and work with those who support my advancement) and started therapy. it’s a change that has to come from him, and he needs to focus on addressing the underlying cause of these feelings is my view.
I did realize the impact I had on my spouse the way you describe and I just tried to force myself to behave differently, with varying degrees of success. I just assumed that was the only answer for a while, but once I started working through my sense of being overwhelmed in therapy and made the (relatively small) changes I could, I realized that I didn’t feel like I needed to try to control myself so much. Being nice and positive came a lot more naturally and just wasn’t such a struggle.
My husband was very patient and kind and I don’t think there’s a ton he could have done except problem solve with me on how to address the underlying issues, which I realize can be a very hit or miss approach.
Anon
I kinda feel like I’m your husband in this situation. I have been having a rough year, and a big part of it is taking care of joint issues for our home, which was badly damaged in a storm. I’ve been handling the contractor, insurance, mortgage, and it’s a lot. He processes things differently and doesn’t ever want to talk about anything because that’s how he deals with his anxiety. I’m in therapy and I do work on it there, but some of this is a shared burden, and so yes, I do need him to connect with me on that. While therapy is helpful and I definitely recommend it, I don’t think it’s the perfect solution because there is just some of this that needs to be shared with a partner. If you can maybe work on finding a time to connect and listen that is better for you, maybe that can be a good compromise.
Anon
Me too. My partner is drained and doesn’t want to talk at the end of the day and I’m drained and want to talk. I adore him but this is a hard one to navigate.
Curious
Gottman has this idea of a scheduled, time-bound stress reducing conversation that works wonders for this situation. Ours was after we had eaten after work; we haven’t found a daily time yet post baby (we do best thing in the day as we put her to bed, but it’s too late for stress-reducing convo), but we do it on the weekend on our coffee walks. The rules are (1) Spouse A asks Spouse B what they’re stressed about; (2) Spouse A then listens and reflects back the emotion and asks questions (active listening) for X minutes, with zero problem solving; and then (3) at X minutes, time’s up and roles switch. Also (4) the stress can be anything but your relationship. It really worked wonders for us because both of us felt much more heard as we spent 15 min really going deep, asking why is that so stressful, oh it’s because you want to be promoted and feel blocked? Oh not quite that, etc.
anon
Ooh, this is really good.
anon
The active listening with no problem solving is SO IMPORTANT IMO/IME.
H13
This is so helpful. Thank you!
Curious
I’m so glad! It really helped me understand my partner better and also feel heard in my relationship. Hope it works for you!
NYNY
My husband does this at times, too. I have varying strategies for dealing with it depending on the situation.
If I don’t have the time or attention, I tell him that I can’t focus, but want to hear what he has to say and then set a time later to talk and make sure to honor that. This one works well because sometimes, the feeling of being overwhelmed has lessened by the time we talk, but he knows that I’m there for him.
If I start feeling overwhelmed when he’s venting, I learned something that sounds really woo-woo from a mind-body therapist that totally works for me: While he’s talking, I push the palms of my hands against part of my body – usually the tops of my thighs if I’m sitting down – to remind myself that he and I are separate people, the solid thing I’m touching is me, and the words I’m hearing are him.
And if he’s going on for too long, or has been venting daily for more than 3 days, I try to interrupt the cycle by asking him about it. Something like, “hey babe, you’ve been talking about this a lot, but it doesn’t seem to be helping. Is there something else going on? Is there anything we can do to improve it?”
In all cases, I recognize that he is feeling fragile and make sure I’m gentle with him while still taking care of myself. I hope some of these suggestions work for you. I know how hard it can be.
Anonymous
I got blasted here when I posted about this a few years ago, but I will only entertain stressful conversations during certain hours. I’m very protective of my bedtime routine. I have a hard enough time turning off my brain, the last thing I need is someone ranting in my ear when I’m trying to wind down. I’d be annoyed if someone did this in the morning too; getting everyone out the door is stressful enough without someone following me around trying to vent. Who wants to start their day like that? He’s ramping himself up to have a bad day and inflicting it on you too.
To be fair, if you haven’t talked to him about it then he probably doesn’t realize he’s doing it. Institute office hours. Limit complaining to some reasonable amount of time, say 20 minutes to start. Get him on board with it too, it’s not good for his mental health to spend so much time complaining. Ask him for ideas of activities to take his mind off it so you can connect through something positive.
Anonymous
+1. At one point we had a house rule that no one was allowed to talk about work upstairs.
Anon
Hi, a year ago, I was your husband. I was in a miserable job working for people who made nonsensical decisions, and were also toxic AF to boot. I could vent to my husband for literally hours about the craziness. He did a great job of listening empathetically for a lot of months as the insanity escalated, but finally one day said “you know I am always here for you, but this is getting to the point where I am wondering if there’s someone else you should be talking to about this stuff, who maybe can be more helpful to you.” He basically meant my career coach, who I’d stopped working with because she kept telling me the only solution for what I was experiencing was getting a new job, which I didn’t want to consider at that point. I realized that I basically had been using him as an emotional dumpster for all my negative feelings about my crazy job, and it was unfair.
I went back to the career coach who, no surprise, had the same advice, but did a great job of listening and strategizing with me about how to handle things. I did decide to start looking for a new job, and got one. My new job is like ten thousand times better than the old one and I no longer need someone (paid or unpaid) to vent to about it for hours on end.
So, I am wondering if there is a coach or therapist your husband could connect with. Because no one listens to you like someone who is being paid to listen to you. And usually those people are thoughtful and skilled at making gentle suggestions or holding up other options that maybe haven’t been considered previously. If he resists going to therapy, a good coach can make a world of difference.
H13
Thank you for sharing this. I’ve been encouraging him to see a therapist and he has been twice. It is his first time in therapy so he is finding his way slowly. He has said to me in the past that he doesn’t think he needs a therapist because he has me but, well, just no to that.
Part of the issue is me, I know. I think I need to protect him but also I worry that he just isn’t up to doing things like managing our very challenging kids. Or he does and then vents to me about it :)
Anonymous
“I think I need to protect him but also I worry that he just isn’t up to doing things like managing our very challenging kids.”
I empathize with your feelings, but also just want to say: the more someone does something, the better they get at it, and the more confident they become doing things themselves. Think about this like coaching an employee: when he’s venting about the kids, rather than empathizing or advising, ask coaching questions, and be generous with affirmations and reinforcement. I read The Coaching Habit a few years ago and the approach helped me tremendously not just in my work life, but also in my personal life.
H13
Thank you for saying this (and saying it kindly!). It is something I think about and don’t readily act on. I will check out the book!
Anonymous
We went with mutual guidelines for when venting is ok. So, no venting after dinner or before work.
Anonymoose
I’m only jumping into say that it’s sounds like the problem is two-fold: 1. You feel he’s dumping it out on you; and 2. He’s doing it at inconvenient times. You’ve received lots of good advice here about number one, so to number 2. You both work and have small kids? Sounds like the only time you’re alone is before work or before bed. (At least that’s how it works at my house.) So if you’d like to hear him but those times don’t work for you, then you’ll have to tell him when it does work, even if that means that you’ll be looking away but still listening. For example, how about he stands in the kitchen with you while you’re prepping dinner (and talks while he sets the table)? Or he can talk while he’s giving the kids a bath and you’ll sit in there too and listen then? Or he can write them down and you can take a family hike/walk every Saturday morning and he gets 20 mins then?
Coach Laura
H13 – I have been there. I think you can gently push back. For example, my husband isn’t allowed to talk to me when we’re in bed for the night – or the middle of the night! – and talk about free-floating anxiety or worries about his job, or the roof, or a car repair. We can talk before bed. He can do this after I have caffeine in the morning but not before. And he can’t dump difficult things right before work.
For your situation, I’d ask him nicely not to bring it up at bedtime, as it interferes with your good sleep and not as you’re heading out the door to school/work. He may be defaulting to those times because of kids. I know how hard it is to get through the dinner-bath-bed rush and then have that be the only time that you two can connect. If he must decompress after work, maybe you can trade off the bedtime routine and he can call a friend/relative to vent. Calling a former coworker or someone familiar with the industry might be good. Or he could lift weights or workout to get rid of the stress. Or write in a journal.
You could also schedule a babysitter for a weeknight and go for a walk or a coffee or tapas and talk. That might lower his stress level generally. Or a weekend hike without the kids.
If more regular help is needed, a career coach might work. Scheduling a regular weekly call with a career coach might enable him to destress in a productive way.
H13
It really is so hard with the kids. Our time alone is really limited and I am just maxed out between work and the needs of kids. We are just starting a routine of each person getting a night off from bedtime each week but I really like the idea of setting boundaries around timing. Before we watch something in the evening is better than as we are getting into bed. I need to speak up, for sure.
Anonymous
Hi, are you my husband? This is actually a helpful thread for me because I realize what I’m doing doesn’t work for him, but it’s very hard for me understand why and also just very hard to stop.
NYC recommendations for repeat visitor
I will be visiting family in NYC for a week around Christmas, staying in Upper Manhattan. I’ve been to NY many times so have done all the standard touristy things. Any recommendations for fun, seasonal things to do/off-the-beaten track or newish places to visit? Plans so far include ice-skating at Bryant Park. Thanks a lot!
Anon
Depends on your definition of upper Manhattan (longtime Washington Heights resident, so my understanding of uptown is…like Canada to ppl who live downtown)
– ramen at ROKC (141 and Broadway)
– Cloisters/Fort Tryon park. Really lovely in the snow
– the little red lighthouse in 180/179th st and the Hudson River
– Massawa Ethiopian Restaurant (121 and Amsterdam)
– Morris Jumel Mansion (160th and St Nic)
– while you’re at Morris Jumel, take a look at the houses on Jumel Terrace
– Hamilton memorial on 141 and St Nic (may be closed?)
– St John the divine—you might be able to go to the top still, if not the grounds and cathedral are beautiful (113 and Amsterdam), and then swing by the Hungarian Pastry Shop
– museum of Chinese in America or the Tenement museum down in the lower east side/Chinatown
Anon
This show was recommended on a cup of jo many years ago, and on that recommendation I went and it was fantastic. My husband even loved it despite going to humor me. I also loved that you have to dress up to go, so it feels very fancy and old NYC
https://chambermagic.com/
Jane
Please help me shop for a “dressy casual” dress to wear to a wedding in December in NY suburbs (so not NYC). Budget is $250 tops but I don’t want to buy something super winter-y as I live in a warm place. I’m also worried about being cold. Stockings seem not appropriate? PS: small wedding moved from pre covid, all vaccinated etc
Anon
Are you open to jumpsuits? You can wear them with heat tech leggings from Uniqlo (or something similar). Adrianna Papell has nice wedding appropriate jumpsuits that don’t break the bank and will keep you suitably warm from the car to venue. Usually it is not super cold in December, but I am also from NY suburbs so my definition of cold is likely different. Just be sure to have a winter jacket!
Also, no one will care if you wear stockings if you choose to go that route.
Jane
I should have mentioned I am short, a size 10 and DDD+ so it is often hard to shop for jumpsuits… but very open to recos/links if someone has any!
Anon
Agreed about Papell, their crepe tuxedo jumpsuit is divine.
pugsnbourbon
What about this one from BR Factory?
https://bananarepublicfactory.gapfactory.com/browse/product.do?pid=7797980010002&cid=1181671&pcid=1045225&vid=1&nav=meganav%3AWomen%3AWomen%27s+Apparel%3ADresses&grid=pds_14_334_1#pdp-page-content
Anon
I just got this dress and can confirm that it is great. Sleeves are sheer-ish. Cut is very forgiving.
Anon in NY
I would just wear what you want and not worry too much about the weather. You’re only going to be walking from the parking lot to the church (if applicable) and back, and then from the parking lot to the reception venue and back. Wear a cozy jacket and scarf for outside. Inside, things are pretty well heated in the winter, even churches. Bring some kind of shawl in case you get cold. Stockings wouldn’t be out of place as long as they coordinate with whatever you’re wearing or are fleshtoned.
Anon
Many people will probably wear black tights with their dresses so definitely do the same. You’ll be inside and will be plenty warm. Don’t wear leggings, it would be strange.
Anon
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/12/briefing/when-will-covid-end.html
Following up on yesterday’s discussion, now actually is when the pandemic starts to end. This is a timely article.
Anonymous
“Greater precautions make sense for vulnerable people.”
This article gives really short shrift to people who are not protected by vaccines. The sentence above is pretty much all that it says. The expectation seems to be that it’s every man for himself, but no one wants to talk about how continuing to maintain a mask mandate for shared, semi-public indoor spaces (like grocery stores) helps protect vulnerable people at near-zero cost to you. I have yet to hear a compelling argument for why we should “get back to normal” and stop wearing masks in that scenario.
For me personally, I am happy to wear a piece of cloth on my face for 15 minutes twice a week if it can help save lives. It TRULY isn’t too much to ask. If it’s too much to ask for you, I would love to hear your reasoning.
Anon
Like…forever?
Anonymous
How about we say “until the hospitals aren’t overflowing” at least? But yes, if I was asked to wear a mask in a grocery store for the rest of my life, I would do it. I don’t want to wear them everywhere, but a grocery store where I’m running in and out to get food is not the same as a wedding or family Thanksgiving or other special event where the socialization matters. It’s literally just 15 minutes.
Senior Attorney
Why not? Good Lord apparently mask wearing in public has been quite common in some other countries for a long time and if it would protect people I would be happy to mask up in very public spaces like grocery stores and airports forever.
Anon
It is common in some other countries when you’re sick yourself. It’s not common for people who aren’t ill to mask at all times.
Anon
I am loathe to give up masking when flying and may continue to do that forever, even if no one else does. I have flown three times now and not gotten sick after my trip, which has been amazing.
LaurenB
I’d be fine wearing a mask in Target / grocery store / airplanes forever, yes. It’s just so NBD.
Anon
Well, I’m hard of hearing and have trouble understanding people talking to me through a mask. I can’t see their lips to help with context, and have a lot of frustrating interactions.
Anonymous
Me too. Also I’m continually impressed that someone here can do an entire week’s worth of grocery shopping in 15 minutes. I hit TJ when it opens with a list and a plan and it still takes at least double that. It takes longer if I have to go to a proper supermarket which is larger with longer lines.
anon
Me three on HoH issues. I read lips all the time in public spaces because I can’t hear people. Now I just give up and nod and hope it’s not a disaster.
Anon
I’m both immunocompromised and hard of hearing and hospitalization/ possibly death vs having to ask someone to repeat themselves is not a difficult choice for me.
You’re really talking about your inconvenience here over life or death for others.
Anonymous
You’re being really insensitive to those HoH who rely on lip-reading and “asking people to repeat themselves” doesn’t help us magically hear better.
Lip-reading dependence is not an “inconvenience”, it’s an exclusionary communication barrier.
Anonymous
We need solutions that balance needs, like clear masks. I’m sure that some innovative company could make one that works.
No thanks.
This is dripping with ableism, and it’s not a good look, Anon at 1:18.
Ses
Anon 118 mentions she is, herself, HoH, so I read this not as ableism but as someone balancing two disabilities and seeing first hand the difference in severity/repercussions.
anon
I downloaded an app called “Live Transcribe” that shows what the speaker is saying in a large enough font to read from a few feet away. It helped me communicate with my building’s deaf maintenance guy. It’s genius.
Anonymous
That article does not actually state that the pandemic starts to end now. In fact, it points out that the most important factor that should govern people’s behavior is the rate of infection, which nearly everywhere in the country is currently too high to stop masking.
Anon
This.
Anon
“Yet Wachter — the chair of the medicine department at the University of California, San Francisco — also worries about the downsides of organizing our lives around Covid. In recent weeks, he has begun to think about when most of life’s rhythms should start returning to normal. Increasingly, he believes the answer is: Now.
This belief stems from the fact that the virus is unlikely to go away, ever. Like most viruses, it will probably keep circulating, with cases rising sometimes and falling other times. But we have the tools — vaccines, along with an emerging group of treatments — to turn it into a manageable virus, similar to the seasonal flu.
Given this reality, Wachter, who’s 64, has decided to resume more of his old activities and accept the additional risk that comes with them, much as we accept the risk of crashes when riding in vehicles.“
Anonymous
He lives in San Francisco. Most of the country is not doing as well as San Francisco, and does not have vaccine mandates in restaurants. If he lived in Texas, would he think the same?
Anon
I live in the Bay Area (Berkeley). I have spent plenty of time b1tching about Bay Area things like $$ and traffic and smoke season. But during the pandemic I’ve been so, so, so grateful to live here.
I would say grateful to live in CA because I think our state leadership has been excellent, but husband and I went to El Dorado county yesterday and not a mask in sight.
LaurenB
Yes, he explicitly acknowledges that this is dependent upon living in a place that is “doing the pandemic right” (which, surprise surprise, are urban blue areas and some suburbs).
Curious
But he’s in the part of San Francisco referenced as being ready for this, and he’s not immunocompromised or with a small child at home, both of which are exceptions cited in the article. It’s far more nuanced than the headline makes it sound.
Anonymous
And he is pretty old and concerned that if he keeps waiting, he’ll get too old to do anything. I am much younger and have kids at home who need me to parent them and then pay for college. I can’t afford to throw away my life by catching long COVID from eating in a restaurant the way an old person can.
Anonymous
+1. It’s one thing for an elderly person who has lived a full life to decide it’s okay for society to take on more risk. It’s a very different calculus for young people with their lives ahead of them.
Anonymous
I hear what Watcher is saying about needing to learn to live with the virus, and yet hospitals are full in my area, including the pediatric hospital. To me, when hospitals are full seems like the wrong time to start resuming business as usual.
Anonymous
And learning to live with the virus does not necessarily mean throwing away our masks. It should mean taking appropriate precautions that make sense given the risks and benefits involved. I think unmasking at conferences or in schools at the present time is insane. I know it’s annoying to give a presentation in a mask, because I do it regularly, but a poorly ventilated hotel conference room full of people from all over the country or the world who have just flown on an airplane and are eating all their meals in restaurants is not the place I want to take off my mask when infection rates are as high as they are now.
Anon
Yes, if the plan is to just let people get sick and treat them as needed (I think this is a bad plan), then we would need more hospital capacity and more more doctors and nurses than we currently have; we would need to throw money at expanding our hospital capacity (not to mention long term care capacity for people who never fully recover) like it’s a national emergency. Is that happening?
Anon
“Wachter told me that he might always wear a mask while grocery shopping or flying on a plane because the costs of having a covered face and a muzzled voice in those settings are virtually zero. He isn’t usually trying to have a conversation with somebody. And a mask can help protect him from all sorts of respiratory viruses.
Unfortunately, the costs of most Covid interventions are higher. Masks inhibit communication, especially for young children and the hard of hearing. (Wachter also says he expects conferences eventually to be maskless.) Remote school has been a failure. Remote office work hampers collaboration. Social isolation causes mental-health problems.“
Anonymous
Where is there still remote school, except places where so many teachers are out sick that they don’t have enough left to keep school open?
Anonymous
“Remote office work hampers collaboration” is a complete myth. It’s one of those things that everyone repeats without a shred of evidence. And honestly, even if it does “hamper collaboration,” that’s a cost I’m willing to accept because the benefits (during a pandemic and otherwise) FAR outweigh that negligible downside.
Anon
I am full-time, permanent remote working for a company where the majority of the workforce is full-time, permanent remote and has been for years. Working just fine for us. Record profits this year. It is completely unfounded when people say remote work “hampers collaboration.” Our folks collaborate just fine.
Anon
Totally true. Companies just want people back in the office to justify the real estate spend, which is mostly locked into 10 year leases.
Anon
Disagree. In office work isn’t necessary every day, but in person collaboration has a lot of benefits that can’t be replicated remotely. It’s disingenuous to suggest that there’s no benefit to going in person.
Anon
I think about some of the these of this article a lot. I’m the poster from a few days ago who got breakthrough COVID post booster. My toddler was very sick for several days, and did have to go to the hospital (although that was due to dehydration, not to respiratory stuff). I have thought a lot in the aftermath of this about the risk decisions we made as a family. Could I have prevented my son from getting COVID and spared him those really awful two days of illness? I could have. But the way to do that would have been essentially not to let him engage in any public life (no nursery school, church, or library story time), not to engage in any public life ourselves or to go to any public places (so no grocery store trips for his dad or I even though we’re vaccinated, no in-person school or indoor sports or extracurriculars for his siblings even with masks) and to have cut our family off from both family and friends unless they were also willing to live that way. But if I had done that, I probably could have prevented him from getting sick.
Would it have been worth it? In the end, I don’t think so. Those two days were awful, but I cannot imagine where we would be as a family if we had essentially been living in isolation for almost two years, with no life outside the home and no in-person contact with family. There is an impact to that, for both individuals/families, and for society as a whole.
We have been treating COVID as an extraordinary risk, and I think that was the right decision for a long time (and remains so for some places and people), but it will not be the right decision for ever. At some point it becomes an ordinary risk – something we have to weigh appropriately but not something we treat as so dangerous that any trade-off is acceptable to prevent it. Without making a conscious decision, I think a lot of people have already shifted more toward that perspective, because the realization set in at some point that there is no post-COVID world, no COVID zero day, that’s coming.
What I worry about is that a subconscious shift rather than a conscious decision may mean that we’re not making rational decisions about what risk mitigation looks like in the new reality. What do we need to do to protect the highest risk people in a world where COVID will always exist? Are we investing appropriately in treatments to reduce morbidity and mortality? How do we minimize the impacts on education, workforce participation, etc.? Just going YOLO and sliding into the new reality isn’t the right answer.
Anonymous
+1 to your last paragraph.
Anon
I feel like I should add, btw, that even my minor postnasal drip is now gone – I know nobody here likely needs encouragement to get vaxxed or boosted, but y’all the vaccine meant that a disease that has killed millions globally was literally less impactful from a health perspective for me than seasonal allergies so, you know, get your shots!
Anon
This is a really wonderful, thoughtful post.
Ribena
This is a really wonderful post. I read an Atlantic piece a few weeks ago called something like ‘post vaccine Covid is a different disease’ and it really helped encourage me to go back to taking enough risks to make my life enjoyable again. And yes, I do now have the mega cold (have had a PCR test so I know it’s not Covid!) and got completely exhausted while out people-ing last week, but I’m doing the fun bits of my job again, finally! And meeting people! So I might not be single forever!
anon for this
I agree to your last paragraph, and we are in a really bumpy part of transition. I’m frustrated that I live in an area with a high vax rate, and very good mask compliance, and yet we still are in the “substantial” transmission category. I’ll feel much better when we are down to like, 15 cases per 100K people rather than the 80 now. We are slowly adding things to our lives, including indoor kid tumbling with masks. But I recently was invited to a house party with like 80 people on the invite list… no thank you, maybe by spring.
Anonymous
One problem with this line of thinking is that people who want to “get back to normal” don’t just want to assume risk themselves, they also want to impose risks on others. Given current infection rates, going out in public without a mask isn’t like driving, which carries some risk of injuring oneself in a crash that we routinely accept. It’s like driving drunk, which carries a huge risk of killing others.
Anon
Sigh. When you drive drunk you are in an objectively impaired condition that creates a high risk of death or injury to yourself or others, and the risk to others does not depend on their own status of any sort. Going out in public without a mask is not of the same order of magnitude of risk because, you know, you might not be infected with COVID, in which case there is literally zero risk that you create to others. And if you are infected with COVID, the health risk you pose to most people that you interact with remains actually quite low, given that COVID is a minor illness for most people, and is heavily affected by their own health conditions, whether they are vaccinated, etc.
We need to be rational about this but hyperbole is not helpful.
Anonymous
OK, then not wearing a mask is like smoking? We don’t allow that in public either.
Cat
so I think this series is missing the point that the author suggested we carefully look at what behaviors to keep (easy: continued masks in stores and in tr-nsit)… he is not suggesting we throw all caution out the window!
I agree with the central principle: Covid is never going to be eradicated. We are going to have to live with it as a new disease forever. But given vaccines and the new treatments coming out, it doesn’t have to restrict daily life forever too.
Anon
When someone is smoking they are objectively engaged in harmful conduct. A person without a mask might or might not be, because they might actually not have COVID. If you want to say that a person going maskless when they know they have COVID is like smoking in public, sure, that’s a closer comparison. But going maskless when you don’t have COVID is not a public health risk.
Anonymous
Sigh. Many people have COVID and don’t know it. Many others have it and purposely don’t get tested.
anon
So triple vaccinated symptom free people with negative rapid test results who don’t want to mask in public are the moral equivalent of drunk drivers and smokers because they might have asymptomatic breakthrough Covid that didn’t show up on a test, got it.
Anon
“So triple vaccinated symptom free people with negative rapid test results who don’t want to mask in public are the moral equivalent of drunk drivers and smokers because they might have asymptomatic breakthrough Covid that didn’t show up on a test, got it.”
I gotta say, this is a great way to put it, and does hold up for me that some of the expectations some folks have are kind of ridiculous.
Anonymous
Literally no one said that a triple-vaccinated person who tested negative is a monster. That’s a strawman. There are millions of people who are not vaccinated at all who go out with active symptoms and refuse testing. Anyone who IS vaccinated who goes out with symptoms and refuses testing is also a problem. That shouldn’t be controversial.
Anon
See above for the “going out maskless in public is like drunk driving” commenter, who definitely was not limiting her statement to people who were infected. So it’s not only not a strawman, it’s literally present in this thread.
Anon
Sorry, but I’m not living in isolation forever because you have anxiety.
emeralds
I booked a trip to London for New Year’s back in March and my cancellation deadline for my apartment is coming up next week…what would you do? COVID numbers out of Europe are concerning right now.
If I do end up cancelling (which I’m leaning towards), any ideas for a North American substitute for five-ish days? Not NYC or Charleston, and I’d prefer not to go somewhere I’d need a car. I like museums and long walks, and will almost certainly be traveling solo. Better weather than the mid-Atlantic would be nice but I don’t mind bundling up and committing to the winter wonderland angle.
Anon
I spent a lovely New Year’s in Montreal some years back, and I think it would fit what you’re describing, but you would def want to be prepared for winter wonderland there (it snowed over 10 inches while we were there).
Anon
Quebec City is also an amazing option, but even colder than Montreal. Absolutely amazing at the holidays. Big vote for the Chateau Frontenac too for the full experience.
emeralds
I was thinking about Montreal or Quebec City, actually–I spent quite a bit of time in Montreal earlier in my life but haven’t been back since high school, and I’ve never been to QC. My French is rusty as hell but I might cost out some stuff and see what that could look like :)
Senior Attorney
I have very minimal high school French and did just fine in Quebec City and Montreal. All the service workers seemed to speak flawless English. And I am another HUGE vote for the Chateau Frontenac.
Anonymous
In Montreal I was disappointed that whenever I spoke French the other person answered in English. I guess my high school French was so bad they found it offensive? But yes, everyone in a tourist-facing position seemed to speak English, except the mean guy at the pizza place who insisted on exact change.
NYCer
Just a caution that the weather will likely be very, very cold in Montreal around New Years.
Anon
I had a lovely stay at Hotel Du Vieux Quebec. It was snowy and gorgeous in the winter. The hotel was nicely appointed and brought breakfast to the door in a cute basket! Dreamy.
Anon
I would get a booster if you haven’t already and go.
emeralds
Thanks! Should have noted in my OP, I will be fully boosted as of this week.
anne-on
I would go. The airlines are generally better at enforcing mask mandates, tickets/entry are still restricted and timed at many big spots, and you can opt for lots of outdoor sight seeing/actvities (christmas markets, boat tours, walking through the decorated areas) if you want to.
Be aware that there are still difficulties with gas availability/taxi drivers so I’d pre-book your transit to/from the airport in the UK and be prepared for using the tube more than ubers.
Cat
I would go. (We went to Europe this fall ourselves and are not hesitating to travel one bit! We figure worst-case for us personally is we somehow catch Covid abroad and have to quarantine & reschedule our trip home… a financial risk moreso than a health one.)
emeralds
Thanks for this…I wouldn’t have batted an eye at traveling in the fall, numbers are just not looking great right now. I am definitely considering the logistical/financial headache if I have to quarantine in London.
Anonymous
I would go and I don’t think the US is any safer.
emeralds
Ha, that’s true…
Anon
Places where you don’t need a car are highly limited outside of NYC. Only places I can think of would be even colder: Chicago, maybe Boston.
That being said, I wouldn’t cancel NYC. I’d be perfectly comfortable going, but YMMV. They seem to be one of the most vaccine-requiring places to visit, but maybe that’s just my impression? I don’t think anywhere else would be significantly “safer”.
Cat
the OP is planning to go to London, NOT NYC. But in any event I replied above, unless you have circumstances such that you don’t think the vax was effective for you, etc… just go.
Anon
Oh! My mistake! I live in London so that was an especially silly mistake. Speaking from personal experience, Londoners are less COVID-cautious than most of the people on this board seem to be. Certainly less cautious than NYers the last time I was there. Vaccination rates are pretty high but certainly not 100%. People are supposed to wear masks and “required to” on tubes/buses but rarely do and mostly have gone back to living normal lives. I wear my mask but am ok accepting the risk of a breakthrough infection since others don’t, knowing I’m double vaxxed. It’s up to you if you’re ok with that risk.
emeralds
Thanks so much for this perspective!
emeralds
Yeah, I’ve been to NYC quite recently or it would be the top of my list for this as a replacement. The car issue is definitely limiting.
anon
I’m going to Croatia for the week before Christmas so my vote is go. I’ll be vacc’d and boosted and feel perfectly comfortable with this approach.
emeralds
thanks!
NYCer
I would go.
If you decide to cancel, it is going to be hard (in my opinion) to find a US city that meets your criteria of not needing a car for 5 days. Maybe Miami if you’re open to a more beachy vacation? There are some art museums there (would likely need to take a cab), and you could certainly take long walks along the beach.
emeralds
Yeah, finding a domestic replacement has definitely not been easy. I’m not looking for anything particularly high-key. Thanks for the support for going, though!
PolyD
I think you can see a lot in New Orleans with no car and the occasional Uber. Washington DC, too – it’s usually not super cold, either, not like NYC or Chicago.
Ribena
I would keep your flights, but I’d come to Scotland instead of London, where we have retained more of the non pharmaceutical interventions.
Anonymous
Not OP, but I’ve heard great things about Christmas and New Years in Scotland and am thinking of it. Any tips?
emeralds
Hmm, I hadn’t considered this but I definitely will…I have some friends who just moved to Dundee, actually.
A
It’ll be fine by March.
Cozy Suggestions
Looking for your coziest cardigan suggestions! My office is absolutely freezing and I want the warmest, coziest layer I can think of that isn’t a fleece blanket. All of my sweatshirts seem to lose the fuzzy cozy feeling pretty quickly after being washed, and I’m looking for something a little nicer for the office than a sweatshirt.
Anon
Something like the LL Bean sweater fleece cardigan or the Patagonia Better Sweater?
LL Bean also makes a fair isle wool cardigan that is lined in thick fleece. It’s maybe meant as outerwear, but I’ve worn it in my office.
Also: lap blanket.
anon a mouse
I like the Bobeau fleece wrap cardigan – it’s more of a wrap with sleeves, but cozy and warm.
Also, anything fleece or warm will do best if you wash on delicate and air dry.
NYNY
The Morandi sweater from MMLF has been sadly discontinued, but there are a few lucky sizes in their resale section. Oversized, lofty merino. It’s super warm and feels like wrapping up in a blanket.
LoudyTourky
Any recommendations for Los Angeles over the holiday break? Family of 4, two kids 9 and 12, coming from the middle of nowhere in Virginia. All will be vaccinated. Not interested in Disney or Universal. We are all big on food, especially if it something local/unique to the area or Chinese/Asian.
Anonymous
My favorite thing to do in LA is to visit the Getty Center. Parking there used to require reservations, so plan ahead.
Anon
Not to yuck your yum, but because I see this recommended all the time, I just have to chime in with I think it’s highly overrated. There’s some nice views, but the permanent collection is a bit dull for my tastes so unless there’s something great showing, I don’t think it’s worth he effort. I far prefer the Broad if you want to hit a museum while you’re there.
Anonymous
I think it’s worth it just for the Van Gogh irises, but I may be irrationally fond of that painting from my childhood.
Senior Attorney
I was just there and to me it’s all about the buildings, the gardens, and the restaurant. You need advance reservations for lunch and they will send you a link for an admission ticket the same day. HIGHLY recommend if you like architecture and great views while eating good food. The art is secondary but yeah, the irises are worth the trip!
Also the Getty Villa in Malibu is fantastic.
Anonymous
DIN TAI FUNG!!!!
Seriously, when I visit relatives on the West Coast I always ask that we go eat at Din Tai Fung because it’s not available on the East Coast.
Anonymous
Sorry, I got too excited thinking about Din Tai Fung to explain – if you’re not familiar with it, it’s a well-known global restaurant chain for its xiaolongbao. Original location in Taiwan, although xiaolongbao is of Shanghainese origins. Anyway, almost everything at Din Tai Fung is delicious but you must absolutely order at least one steamer of pork xiaolongbao (assuming you eat pork) if not multiple steamers.
Anon
Huntington Botanical Gardens.
A trip to Catalina.
Senior Attorney
The Huntington is fantastic and they have a new Chinese restaurant that is very good.
anon
DTF is good, but be prepared to wait (do they take reservations now?). Korea town is also super fun and pretty unique to LA (within the U.S.). I’d do an all you can eat Korean bbq if family likes meat.
Anon
For really authentic, huge variety of Chinese food, go to just about any where in the San Gabriel Valley, especially Monterey Park. Thai Town in east Hollywood. Hollywood itself for the stars in the sidewalk and Chinese Theatre. Downtown is cool. The Huntington Library is lovely. Santa Monica beach. Rodeo Drive for the window shopping. Check Roy Rogers Park to see if there’s any polo happening. Drive Sunset Boulevard from downtown to the ocean –it’s a day trip!
Anonymous
Check to see if any of the studio tours are operating – we loved the Warner Brothers Studio Tour back before Covid.
Griffith Park Observatory is a classic destination for views of the city. The park has a lot of hiking trails and other activities as well.
anon
I could use some advice on how to be a supportive spouse during this holiday season. The 1-year anniversary of my FIL’s death is coming up in the next couple of weeks. He died from covid around Thanksgiving last year, and to say it was and is traumatic is an understatement. I know it’s on DH’s mind a lot. I’ve asked him what he needs from me (space and quiet? company and distraction?), and he says he doesn’t know what he’s feeling up to, which I totally get. To complicate matters, we have a covid-related rift with his side of the family. I personally would be perfectly happy never spending holidays with those relatives again, as they have behaved horribly during the pandemic and have done very little to support DH in the past year, other than to issue guilt trips when we wouldn’t come to family gatherings (pre-vaccine). I’ve told DH it’s up to him to decide and I’ll go along with what he wants to do, but it’s a lot of ambiguity. I guess I want him to do what HE wants and not what he feels internal pressure to do, if that makes sense.
Thanks for listening to my long, rambling post. I can tell DH is finding this time of year very triggering, but I’m not sure what my role is here. If anyone has been through this, I’d love your thoughts.
Anon
One idea is if doing thanksgiving just the two of you seems sad to him and if joining the family isn’t the right choice, is to suggest and you plan doing something totally different—go stay at a hotel or cabin and order delicious takeout that is not at all Thanksgiving-y, instead of trying to duplicate the traditional experience without the people who would normally be there.
aBr
My DH’s dad passed away when we were both young, and this is my advice over 15 years later. The first few years are going to be a raw nerve for him – an unpredictable raw nerve. Right now, your DH likely does not have the ability to articulate what the decision he wants to make is and needs you to make *a* decision that he can react to. Mine wasn’t able to affirmatively make a decision but he was able to articulate what he did not want to do. So, my advice is if going to see his family requires things like plane tickets, hotel rooms, etc. make those reservations now, and make them fully refundable. That leaves open the option of making a game time decision. I’d also just approach a lot of holiday decisions for the next couple months like this, unless he really pushes back, this is really the year for you to take the reins – buy the presents, handle the logistics, let him decide if he wants to engage or not. But, this is not the year for any big plans – e.g., big European distraction vacation is probably the wrong call.
Anon
+1 to all this.
My husband’s dad died in a traffic accident right before Father’s Day, 20+ years ago. It was up or down, for a few years, whether or not he was up to participating in anything around the anniversary date (we did not have kids at the time, but stuff like Father’s Day lunch with my dad and my grandpa, etc.). There was a year where he thought he’d be okay but at the last minute was like, actually I’m not okay, and that was totally fine. I went without him and everyone understood.
Completely, totally agree that sometimes it’s good to be the one who makes the plan, as making even a small choice can be overwhelming for the grieving person. When my beloved grandparents died within a year of each other about ten years after my FIL was killed, my husband had to do that for me in several instances (yes, we will go to Thanksgiving with the family but no, doing Christmas with everyone again is going to be too much, especially because that was my grandma’s favorite holiday). The emotions are unpredictable so flexibility and openness is the best path forward. I am sorry for your family’s loss.
anon
This is really helpful. Thanksgiving was FIL’s favorite holiday, so I’ve gently suggested that maybe we not celebrate with the extended fam and do something quieter with MIL and our kids. He’s thinking about it, at least.
Cat
I don’t have the same background but sometimes what I’m looking for from my husband is moral support by way of “permission” to behave a bit selfishly – i.e., what’s best for me – slash – us rather than one of our families.
So while I might not feel up to actually suggesting “what if we do a Thanksgiving getaway just the two of us this year,” if my husband suggested it, I might jump at it.
Anon
Sounds absolutely horrible, and I am so sorry. Your approach sounds good…and I think you can also offer your thoughts to help your husband sort out how he feels. My wife comes from horribly dysfunctional parents and siblings. There was abuse of multiples forms during her childhood, including incest, though her siblings deny it. The two of us went to therapy together and individually to help learn how to figure out whether and under what conditions we wanted to see her family. And, more to the point of what I want to say about your post, I have learned that it’s okay for me to say what I think might be a good decision in a given circumstance. As an outsider to the family system, I can bring a useful perspective. My wife of course gets to decide what she wants to do, but we have learned over time (20+ years now, we are old) that we can trust each other deeply in these conversations. She knows that my perspective can be useful to her (and vice versa).
All that is to say: I get why you are letting your husband figure out what he wants, and doing so is useful and appropriate. And, in addition, I could imagine that he may find it useful for you to say that his family has shown they don’t support him, and that during an especially difficult time it may make sense not to be around those people. He can still choose to attempt to maintain connections with them, but selecting a time other than Thanksgiving to do so could be really smart. I could imagine that he may want to mark the death anniversary without his family around, and then decide on his own timetable how and when to see them again.
And it’s okay for you to help him by proposing these ideas and letting him see if they resonate for him. I am really sorry. Hugs.
Anon
The one year anniversary is extremely hard. Not least because while last year was just a trauma blur at Thanksgiving and the winter holidays, this year will be a more clear-eyed experience of the loss. In my experience it’s like another new wave of ‘initial’ grief. You’re doing the best you can already by being available, showing care, and listening to your spouse. It may be easier to say ‘we can table the ‘should we get together’ question this year, and revisit it for next year. if you want, maybe this year we can do something totally different’. In the wake of her mother’s death (also at Thanksgiving), my mom couldn’t do NE USA Christmas decor, Christmas celebrations. We went to Florida. Wouldn’t advise Florida this year, but maybe something ‘different’ from what you’re used to.
Super anon from last week
The update you all told me was coming –
I found out yesterday that he has already cheated on me. It was in summer 2017 and it ended but they are still in touch (she’s on our holiday card list???). Devastating. I don’t know what to do or how to move forward in our relationship. Right now I do want to stay together but I just have no idea what that means.
London (formerly NY) CPA
No advice. Just hugs from this internet stranger!
Anonymous
I’m sorry he did this to you (it didn’t “happen,” as people often say – he made a deliberate choice). Whatever you end up doing, do you have a bank account in your name only?
Super anon
Yes I have a bank account in my name only and he does as well. We contribute to a joint account and pay joint expenses from there but each control our own money.
Anon
Oh honey, I am so sorry. Thank you for letting us know. Unless he wants to fight for the relationship—and I am not getting that vibe at all—it’s over. You still need to figure out what you want, but you can’t make him want to stay.
Anonymous
Oh no I’m so sorry. Did he tell you or did you find out on your own? If they are still in touch then it seems like it didn’t really end….
Super anon
I found out and had to spell it out to him until he confessed. It went from “I had a crush on a coworker once” to “we had sex for a summer and were in love”. So hard to absorb the reality of what happened much less figure out what to do or how to move forward.
Anon
I am so sorry to say this, but if you found out (vs him telling you)…this is just the one that you know about.
anon
Yeah, I hate to say it, but this. A friend is currently in a very similar situation. She thought it was just one woman. No, he’s been boning other women on and off for years.
Super anon
How can I ever know this though? I’m really struggling with this today (and was struggling with last week before i found this out).
anon
That is supremely awful. I’m so sorry.
Anon
Nobody cheats only once. There were others. If you show him that you’re you’re okay with it (by jumping through therapy hoops instead of kicking his ass to the curb), he’ll keep doing it, and just get better at hiding it.
Anon
I’m so sorry. All I can really say. Just really sorry about all of this. Sending you love.
Actually, I can ask if you’ve found a therapist because you need that kind of IRL support right now. Even doing BetterHelp or something like that would be better than trying to get through this on your own.
Super anon
Yes we have a couples therapist and each have an individual therapist now. Thanks for checking.
Senior Attorney
I’m so sorry, OP. My suggestion is to stop the couples therapy for now because you know you can’t trust him to be honest with you, which is a prerequisite for successful joint therapy, and concentrate on what’s best for you with your individual therapist.
Big hugs. This has got to be so hard!
Anon
I’m so sorry. All the best to you.
Anon
My advice is personal therapy for you where you can talk through how you really feel, your fears, your hopes, and reach a decision for yourself. You haven’t mentioned your age (I don’t think), but I divorced my first husband from my 30s, remarried in my 40s and am so much happier. It’s okay if it doesn’t work out.
Super anon
Thanks. I am 35. We met when I was 19 and started dating when I was 23 so this is a very long term relationship which is part of why this is hard to process.
Cat
So, tough love comment here. You have been together for 12 years, and your husband has been actively cheating, or seeking to cheat, for at least the last 4 of them. That’s a third of your relationship… and the reason that’s what you’ve found out is because that’s the recent history that you can even think to question.
He’s proven his loyalties lie… elsewhere. I’m sorry.
Anon
I’m really sorry for you. The question you need an answer to is how many women he’s slept with since you started dating circa 2009. Given what you’ve said, I would be shocked if it were only this one woman. Cynical take: men like this were never really intending sexual exclusivity.
Anon
Oh that’s tough. One thing I’ve observed over time is a lot of people who got to get very young (early 20s) experience cheating in the relationship. My theory is that no one slept around enough to realize it ain’t all that thrilling. Even if that’s your husband’s excuse, it’s not how you deserve to be treated and that’s a giant pile of broken trust.
Anon
I’m sure this is shocking. I just want to say, you didn’t do anything wrong by not realizing earlier that this happened. And any good times you had together are real. But also, your husband is not who he pretended to be and your marriage is not what you thought it was. That’s very scary but you will be okay.
Anon
This is important for the OP to hear, so thanks for saying it. My best friend divorced her first husband over infidelity and remarried a wonderful man about ten years later; they have been married almost 20 years. It’s okay for things to end when they don’t work. And OP, you can’t care more about the marriage than your husband does, and have your feelings carry the entire weight of keeping the marriage together. And he doesn’t seem to care very much about the marriage, sorry to say.
Senior Attorney
OMG yes this is so true!! I stayed married to my first husband for eight years, which was far too long. Then I stayed married to my second husband, who was an emotionally abusive narcissist and whom I married at 40, for FIFTEEN years because I was determined not to be divorced twice. Which was absurd, of course. I finally had the sense to leave and married the best man in the world at age 58 and we just had our fifth anniversary and truly I never knew marriage could be so great.
Anonymous
I’m so sorry.
I’d remove the phrase “move forward in our relationship” from your vocabulary right now, and replace it “walk through a relationship stage I never wanted to experience.”
You have a drive to rebuild the relationship, but right now is the DEconstruction phase, where more revelations may come out, where the true state of the relationship gets revealed, and where you begin to see his true baseline character. Only after all this phase plays out fully could you begin to rebuild.
I’m so sorry you’re dealing with this.
Super anon
Thank you. I like this framing. I do think I’m still in discovery mode / phase and need to really think about who my husband is and what his priorities are.
Jules
You have discovered who your husband is. I like the concept that when people show you who they are, you should believe them – but in your case you had to search out his behavior, he didn’t come clean and he does not seem to be truly invested in changing.
So, you need to really think about who YOU are and what YOUR priorites are. I’m just an internet stranger, but I think you deserve a million times better than this doosh and that you need to move forward and away from him, not forward with him.
Sending you all the hugs and support.
Also, if you post what city you are in, there might be a ‘rette nearby who would be happy to buy you a coffee or a drink and let you talk about this – or let you talk about anything else and forget about this for a while.
Anonymous
I’m so sorry. I hate that I was right, but at least you know part of the truth now, though I’m sure theres more to come.
Anon
Yes, the drip, drip, drip of partial info and half truths from him is about to start.
anon
You want to stay together, but does he? Like what is he doing to repair the hurt? If you had to drag the truth out of him, that does not bode well. It shows a profound amount of disrespect to you and the marriage.
Super anon
Yes, I’ve been telling him he has to sort out what he wants – to treat our marriage and me in the way it and I deserve or….not. I’m not sure he understands this.
Anonymous
Hugs from an Internet stranger and I’m truly sorry this is happening. Hear me when I say that: What he wants is to keep having affairs and stay married to you, because that is what he has been doing. When you’re ready, you will have to decide if that is what your want/will put up with because he is going to keep doing it.
Anonymous Canadian
I am so, so sorry you are going through this, and sending you as much love and strength as is possible from an internet stranger.
I agree entirely with anonymous at 1:28, Jules at 2:37, Cat at 2:27 and Senior Attorney at 2:06.
You deserve so much better than this and it is out there. Do not be fooled by the sunk cost fallacy. Your life is too short and precious. You KNOW for sure he has spent at LEAST 1/3 of your marriage cheating and has lied, and lied and lied about the things you know about until he had no choice but to admit them . What more information do you need to show you who he is?
I have been thinking of you so often since your first post. I wish for peace and happiness for you and with real love I tell you I do not think you will find it with this man. You deserve someone who will worship the ground you walk on and have zero trouble keeping his pants on. Look in the mirror and tell that beautiful woman you see that she has the strength to let go of this situation so the one she deserves can present itself.
Much love from Canada to you.
NYNY
I’m so sorry the man you trusted most has hurt you this way. He is a serial cheater and has gotten away with it until now. If he doesn’t understand that he needs to step up, you need to make the decision that it’s over. Since he broke the marriage, tell him to find another place to stay. Contact a lawyer if you haven’t already. But right now, don’t take care of him, just take care of yourself.
Senior Attorney
Agree 100% with Anonymous at 1:28 p.m.: He’s shown you what he wants, which is the marriage and affair(s) on the side. He understands fine and he’s shown you what he is willing to do, which is lie to protect his desired status quo.
When I was married to my second husband, I literally spent YEARS thinking that if I could just get him to understand how distressing his behavior was to me, then surely he would change his ways. Nope. He understood fine, he just didn’t care.
I’m so sorry, Super anon.
Anonymous
I hate that this is happening to you. I also hate that you had to have all the evidence to get it to come out. Which makes me think there is more. If every time you find something, “that’s it,” then there’s always going to be more.
Anonymous
I’m so sorry. I know you need time to process, but I do need to state that this is not a marriage you can save. He didn’t even tell you, and it’s not like he cheated once in a business trip which would be bad enough. This is ongoing deception, and having her on your Christmas card list is because he is delighting in your humiliation. I’m so so sorry
Anon
Agreed, the card thing is super gross. What arrogance. He’s not worth keeping.
Anon
If it helps you I highly recommend reading Chump Lady. Many many people (men and women) have been here before. She does not espouse reconciliation, but it may help you to read other stories.
I was a very naive, loving trusting wife whose husband one day out of the blue said he had to be divorced to “be alone.” I believed that, like an idiot, until I found out he had moved out to love with a 19 year old. He was 34. I was a HYS professional. I had been trying to “understand” him until then, and then immediately got the best divorce lawyer ever. All that to say, many sympathies, but protect yourself first. I can guarantee you he is.
Anonymous
Late to post but just wanted to add that it’s really important to recognize the difference between wanting to “move forward in the relationship” and wanting things to go back to the way you thought they were before you knew about your husband’s actions. I’m so, so sorry that he has done this to you, but no matter what you ultimately decide to do, your marriage will never go back to the way it was before you knew. I don’t know whether it is possible that something different and positive can come from this discovery (although I strongly believe that to be unlikely for all the same reasons that have already been mentioned), but even in the best case scenario, you aren’t going to get back the marriage you thought you had. When you’re ready, you’ll have to decide whether it is the right choice to stay, but please don’t make that choice based on an idea that you can somehow put the genie back in the bottle. Make sure you really want the new reality that his choices have created.
Anon
This is very good advice.
Anonymous
Help me spend money at the Sephora sale! I have two things on my list: a blow dryer with a diffuser great for wavy hair (won’t use often so no Dyson price tag), and a cruelty-free mascara that doesn’t make your eyelashes enormous and that provides a subtle enhancement instead. Any reccs?
Anonymous
For mascara, I like to order the mini sizes and mini sets so I can try several brands. Ilia has a mini set.
Anonymous
Not sure it is cruelty free but I love Benefit’s They’re Real mascara – more lengthening than volume, good staying power and does not clump.
Anonymous
I can’t help with the hairdryer, but for mascara check out the Hourglass Unlocked Instant Extensions Lengthening Mascara. Cruelty free and more subtle (at least on me) than the name would imply.
Anon
I recently got a sample of Tarte Surfer Curl and have really been liking it. I’m pretty sure Tarte is cruelty free? And I’m following this for the dryer recs, I’ve been hunting for one for so long it’s starting to seem like a unicorn.
Anone
I love the Lancome Definicils mascara. I also love my Dyson hairdryer but you said no to that, so I got nothing on that front!
Senior Attorney
+1 on both counts, but I will also say the Dyson is so great that even if I only used it infrequently I would still be happy I had it! (I wouldn’t ever consider spending the money but my husband got it for me a few Christmases ago and it was a game changer!)
Nonny
Hi Sr. Atty: what Dyson model, price and what is great about it? I have fine, frizzy, gray hair and desperately need blow-dryer that will take the frizz down and drive my hair fast without ruining it. Thanks!!!
Anon
I’d like to know the mascara that makes your lashes enormous! I find every one is just wimpy amd weak with overstated promises!
kitten
“Sephora Favorites Lashtash to Go” –comes with several mini mascaras and voucher to redeem for one full size. You’d have to research whether each brand is cruelty free but I know for a fact that at least a few of them are (Huda, Milk). No recs on the hair dryer, I use conair….
Carrots
Hey all – posting for a friend who’s looking for a therapist in Silver Spring/Bethesda that has experience with PPD. She’s had some not great experiences with therapists in the past, so I told her I asked here for names of those who had good experience with folks. She has Cigna, so bonus if they’re within that insurance plan. If you’d rather message me privately, my burner is britbrit1228 at the google mail. Thank you all!
Anonymous
No personal experience, but Barbara Byers was highly recommended in my postpartum support group (PACE, which is also fantastic if she is a new mom!).
Carrots
Thank you! I’ll pass this along to her!
mom jeans styling?
I bought cropped corduroy pants recently, they have the “mom jeans” fit. They are a pale pinkish colour and it is the color that got me to try them on in the shop, was surprised that I actually like them despite me feeling initially that mom jeans would look frumpy on me. I have tried them on with a tucked in t-shirt (untucked definitely does not work), paired with ankle length booties and I think they could work for winter and fall wear i.e. casual wear. However the pale pink color got me thinking if corduroy could also be work in Spring-like weather? Maybe style them with sandals with a wedge heel? Would appreciate ideas from those who have tried the mom-jeans cut. Thanks in advance.
Anonymous
I’d wear them whenever the weather is appropriate in your region, meaning, cool enough to not feel strange wearing them.
for styling, I’d play it by ear once spring rolls around. Spring weather, to me, is never sandal weather, so I can’t quite imagine weather that’s warm enough for sandals but still cool enough so that corduroy doesn’t look too fuzzy or too hot. But if that’s the kind of weather you have, go for it!
T
Would someone mind explaining what’s going on with the Rittenhouse trial to me?
I understand that during the protestors Rittenhouse shot 3 people (killing 2 and injuring one). Now it seems as if the person who was injured had a gun himself and was pointing it at Rittenhouse, which suggests that it could have been self defense. I’m not sure how that connects (if that connects) to the people who were killed.
What is all the controversy over the judge and how the trial is being run?
Anonymous
The judge is editorializing a lot and has forbidden the prosecution to refer to the victims as “victims.” He’s overstepping the bounds of normal judicial behavior.
Anon
In a self-defense case, it’s actually not unheard of for a judge to prohibit referring to the deceased individuals as “victims” since the entire foundation of the defense is that the defendant was him/herself the victim of a crime.
Anonymous
Here there is no allegation that the decedents were threatening the defendant, just that the witness who is still alive possessed a weapon.
Anon
LOLOLOLOL. What ridiculously fake news biased site are you reading?
One of the decedents tried to beat Rittenhouse with a skateboard (“let’s brain him”) and the other tried to grab his gun. All three are convicted felons, which matters because they have a history of being quite violent and ugly people. While Rittenhouse could not have known that, the reality is that violent felons tend to not act the way the rest of us act, and it’s quite reasonable to assume that a child rapist and a violent thug would, in fact, attack a kid.
Anon
https://www.wisconsinrightnow.com/2021/03/12/kenosha-shooting/
A primer. Pardon, only two are convicted felons; the man who lived was convicted of “going armed with a firearm while intoxicated.”
Anon
“going armed with a firearm while intoxicated”
So many things that are illegal are things it never crosses my mind to do even. [I guess there are variants of going armed, not with a firearm but something else? State laws are wild sometimes: e.g., Virginia’s misdemeanor of “curse and abuse.”]
Anon
Anon at 11:14, I really, really wish you’d find someplace else to take your ish, as I think you should have already figured out what kind of reception you’re going to get from your posts. Take the hint, already.
P.S. I guess no room for conversation about why Rittenhouse was out there in the first place with an assault weapon? His individual property was not being threatened. He is not a member of law enforcement. He had no formal law enforcement training. I posit that just maybe, deciding to cosplay Big Shot Riot Policeman when you have no business doing any such thing, could be defined as “looking for trouble.” And he certainly found it. If he’d decided to stay home instead of wandering the streets with an assault weapon, two people would still be alive and he wouldn’t be on trial. We own guns and I am generally pro-sensible 2A rights but if my kid had done what Rittenhouse did I would be infuriated and ashamed. Owning a gun does not give someone the right to go out and act like a police officer.
T
Even if the witness who is still alive was a danger to Rittenhouse, what does that have to do with Rittenhouse killing the other 2 people?
Anon
They aren’t linked. They are separate incidents, albeit close in time, each with its own set of facts.
LaurenB
That’s quite common not to refer to the dead people as victims. That’s for the jury to decide.
Anon
I think you will have a hard time getting a helpful answer in a forum like this one, because how people view this is heavily driven by their own ideological preferences. Ultimately, there’s a lot of noise around this trial that isn’t relevant to the basic question of whether or not Rittenhouse was in reasonable fear of his life such that his actions were justified, but the whole thing is essentially red meat to both the left and the right so the media coverage has generally been a disaster, IMO.
T
Well, that’s actually why I’m asking here – figured I’d ask a group of lawyers since the media coverage is complicated.
Anon
This is not the right group of lawyers.
Anon
This is a very liberal group of lawyers for the most part.
Anon
Yes, and I hope it stays that way.
Anon
And probably with nary an actual prosecutor or defense attorney among them. At best, maybe some litigators who don’t actually try cases in BigLaw. These aren’t people who have seen the Fifth Amendment since the bar exam.
Here's a prosecutor
Here’s a prosecutor. And a liberal. Assumptions are an invitingly easy substitution for actual analysis and thought.
anonymous
I’ll be curious what the liberal group of lawyers here thinks when it’s their city, homes, and workplaces that law enforcement surrenders to mob. They’ll be begging for a hero like Kyle Rittenhouse to show up.
Anon
LOLWUT? What wrong turn did you take from 4Chan to end up here?
Anon
“I’ll be curious what the liberal group of lawyers here thinks when it’s their city, homes, and workplaces that law enforcement surrenders to mob. They’ll be begging for a hero like Kyle Rittenhouse to show up.”
LOL at the whole comment but especially the idea that Rittenhouse is a “hero.” Girl, you are in the wrong place. Take this kind of thing to to Parler or Gab, please.
Anonymous
The local news papers have pretty good day to day trial coverage. The facts turned out to be very different than what I thought from shallow TV news coverage.
OhSoAnon
Someone with actual criminal experience:
It is very common for the court to ban the use of the word “victim” in self-defense cases. This judge was not doing something radical or even unusual.
Rittenhouse was probably over charged due to public pressure. (Although the gun charge is a no brainer.)
His reasons for going to the protest are completely irrelevant. The only relevant issue is was he in reasonable fear for his safety. “He should have stayed home” is not an argument. “He was looking for trouble” is not an argument. He is a right wing nut job is not an argument.
Most of the press coverage on this has been a disaster. Second the recommendation you read the local coverage.
The mostly liberal crowd including the people here have prejudged him as guilty. I can understand why. I personally think is he bears considerable fault. However, I also think he is unlikely to be convicted of the most serious charges and that will probably be the “right” verdict – although when it comes to state of mind crimes “right” is incredibly subjective. .
Seconded
I also have actual criminal experience, am a liberal, and agree with this comment.
Anonymous
Maybe a fun question for a Friday-where should I go for my 40th bday/10th anniversary trip with my husband?
I’m not particularly adventurous or well traveled-will be flying out of New York. I’m willing to spend some bucks on this trip because it’s a milestone and we’ve had a financial windfall recently. It would be about a year from now so fall 2022 but I’m flexible on timing. The only big restriction is that we could probably only swing a week tops (young kids to stay with grandma.) we planned a trip to Napa several years ago but it was in the midst of major fires so we ended up in Big Sur. Napa is still on the list but I’m worried it’ll happen again. Our favorite trip ever was a road trip to and around the south east (savannah, Charleston, Asheville.) We like good food (either casual or fancy) and museums. A joint golf and spa day would be fun but not necessary. I’m considering Europe but I’ve always felt very stressed out during international travel. ( I try to speak a little of the language and be respectful but always come off as an ugly American. Also, I tend to get uneasy in huge crowds. I was always fine in penn station at rush hour but large crowds of pushy tourists really rattle me.) Is there such a thing as a relaxing trip to Paris or London? Any thoughts welcome. Thanks!
Anon
What about Europe outside of a major city? I feel like cities are always a little bit stressful. I would look at Provence, the Tuscan countryside or the Swiss Alps if you want to go international.
Anon
I think Paris and London can be relaxing if that’s your goal. It gets sidetracked when you start feeling the need to see the things you’re “supposed” to see. I love going to Paris, staying in a fancy hotel or apartment, and just wandering around having long lunches and splurgy dinners. I’d also recommend going out to he Loire Valley for a few days/nights – it’s much more mellow and a very different experience.
Cat
+1, you can make Paris feel as crowded-touristy or not as you may want. Our first trip was a long weekend and we tried to see All The Things, which was a mistake. We went for a week the second time and basically did only what we wanted to do rather than felt obligated to do, and it was amazing. (Giverny gardens day trip, Reims champagne-tasting day trip, lots of wandering, lots of $ to $$$$ dining, only a few museums.)
Anokha
I absolutely love London, and it can be relaxing! I would also consider Amsterdam, especially if you are comfortable bike riding.
Anon
I would recommend Portugal. It’s a small country, easy to navigate. No need to know the language, as English is widely spoken (but knowing how to say a few simple phrases like “thank you” or “please” in Portuguese is appreciated). Specifically, I would suggest going to Porto and then taking a train into the wine valley from there. Highly recommend staying at Casa de Visconde Chanceileros in Pinhao. Do some lounging and wine tastings and then go back to Porto (the hotel proprietor will arrange a tasting schedule for you with private driver). The food is amazing in both places – Muu Steakhouse in Porto is not to be passed up and the house-cooked dinner at the Casa is still some of the best food I’ve ever had. I think you could also add Lisbon on in a week, taking the train down, but you could just make it a really leisurely time in Portugal wine country and the north.
MND
For a significant anniversary, we did a trip to Italy and it was amazing. We used a great travel agent who scheduled excursions, set up our airport transport, etc. We did 9 nights total & 3 cities, but I think you could do two cities and not feel rushed. We got along fine with English and some Duolingo-ed Italian in Rome, Florence and Venice.
Anon
If you’re into a beach option, we just did 5 days in Turks & Caicos for a big anniversary, and it was spectacular. I think that would be an easy flight from NYC, and it’s international without there being a language barrier. There are a lot of great luxury hotel options there, but we opted to stay at Parrot Cay, which is a private island accessible only by boat from the mainland. 10/10 experience, and we can’t wait to return.
Anon
Second this, just came from Turks and Caicos and stayed at an all-inclusive. Definitely a great low stress vacation. I vouch for the Beaches Sandals resort if night life/clubs isn’t important to you.
Anon
+1 on T&C especially if you’re into snorkeling. The best snorkeling I’ve experienced in North America/the Caribbean was there. We stayed at Windsong and although I didn’t love the resort in general, it was a real treat to walk out the front door and get in the water with sea turtles, eagle rays and reef sharks. It was only a 10-15 minute walk from Beaches and other resorts.
Ribena
I think the way you can make city trips more relaxing is to stay somewhere outside and then just go into the city for day trips- or to split your week into a few days in the countryside and a few days in the city. In September 2018 I went to Tuscany with my parents and we stayed in an agriturismo between Florence and Siena, going into Florence just on one day for a foodie walking tour and to explore. I actually just stayed half the week, and they did a similar day trip into Siena after I had left.
Anon
Agreed. I suggested Tuscany above. A stay at an agriturismo with one or two day trips into Florence would be super relaxing and low stress, while still letting you hit the tourist highlights of a major city.
Senior Attorney
Totally agree. A good friend of ours is a guide in Florence and does tours and also travel consulting: https://www.claireintheworld.net/services-4
HIGHLY recommend: She is putting together a trip for us and a group of friends in Tuscany for next summer.
London (formerly NY) CPA
I think the key to not feeling super stressed on international trips is to not try to pack too much into a few days. I recently did a 4 1/2 day trip to Venice and LOVED it. I had a reasonable list of things I wanted to do/see but otherwise, allowed myself the time to just walk around and explore and get lost and find off-the-beaten-track spots. I think most people try to pack it into 2-3 days, whereas I didn’t feel rushed at all.
There were a couple of places where the crowds of tourists were too much for me, but otherwise ok. I found going to very touristy places either early or late helped, as did pre-buying tickets. At midday, I had very long relaxing lunches, strolled, shopped, maybe saw a lesser-visited museum, etc.
Cat
+1000, many people give Venice only a day from a cruise ship and by far the best part of the day was after the daytrippers leave and sipping Spritzes and eating potato chips with the locals. We then toured the Doge’s Palace after our happy hour which… 10 / 10 recommend, it was almost empty!
NYNY
If you aren’t comfortable with international travel, I’d do either New Orleans or Santa Fe. Great food, culture, and museums, and you speak the language. For a milestone celebration, I like to splurge on a really bougie hotel, which gives us a nice home base for our other adventures.
Anon
With the description you have given, I would go to California wine country, a Caribbean island, or Hawaii. Luxuriate. If int’l travel stresses you out and you only have a week, just enjoy yourselves somewhere closer and easier. It won’t be a museum trip, but you can get the golf and spa days for sure, and rent a car and enjoy your time.
If you REALLY want to travel internationally, I’d at least eliminate one of the issues you mention and go somewhere without any language barrier. That still gives you lovely options: if you’re comfortable driving on the left side of the road, an Irish or Scottish road trip is totally dreamy (I especially loved the lakes in Scotland). If you want a city break, you could consider flying into London, stay in colorful Chelsea or Notting Hill, and hit up all the museums
Anon
Does anyone have experience with Ruggable rugs? I need a rug for my currently bare living room floor but I’m about to get a puppy so I need something that’s easy to clean. Any other rug brands/types I should consider?
Anon
I have one in my kitchen and wouldn’t recommend for a living room, they’re just a little plasticky or something not quite lush. We had a puppy and my advice is get something cheap that you’ll toss after they’re potty trained. There’s a lot of options on places like Overstock, even Amazon. Depending on your taste, I like the cheap collabs w some of the design bloggers like a Chris Loves Julia.
Anon
I had one for awhile and was not impressed. This was about four years ago so they may be different now, but my thing was – they didn’t really feel or look like rugs. It looked and felt like an old-school flat bedspread put on the floor. We couldn’t get ours to stay flat thanks to our dogs and our kid, and it faded really fast when I washed it. I wouldn’t buy one again, but I think some folks do really love them.
Wannabe decorator
I have one. It’s nice that it can be washed and most stains are easily wiped, but keep in mind the following: they don’t look great (they are thin) and they are kind of a pain to put back on the Velcro base, especially if they are under furniture. They only go to 8×10 which will be too small for many living rooms. For pet stains, I’d recommend it. For my human mess makers I’m switching to 100% wool with cut pile. It cleans easily, is available in the right size, and fees better underfoot. HTH!
Anon
I would just get any rug that’s color fast when treated with Kids’n’Pets, or in a worst case scenario (for me it was “unreliable pet sitter”), Kobasan Snow. So I wouldn’t get jute, but wool has been fine for me.
Anon
I have a few in my kitchen, mudroom, etc but I wouldn’t recommend them for a living room. They’re really just mats and if you get a huge size it’s hard to get them back on the pad after washing. If you want something easy to clean you can get stainmaster carpet bound with a waterproof backing – a spot bot or whatever and oxyclean sanitizer will keep it looking like new should the worst happen.
Anon
+1. I use it as my indoor mat at the back door. It’s off my living room and used a million times a day to take the dog out or for kids to play. It looks better than a typical mat and it cleans really well when someone tracks in mud or dog poop, and serves its purpose very well. I’ve just ordered another one for the mudroom door and will likely get a third for my front entry – once Covid ends I assume neighbor kids will be back to daily playtime running in and out of houses.
I would not use them as a traditional rug or even as a standing mat in the kitchen. When our pup was small, we just bought a cheap rug from Target that we knew we’d likely throw out in a year or so. And now that he’s getting elderly, we may temporarily go back to that route for his increasing number of accidents.
Agurk
Check out Hook and Loom. Washable flat weave cotton. We have one in the kids play space and it’s awesome
Of Counsel
I have one where the dog door to the back yard is and in my kitchen and they are great for those locations because I love being able to wash them and they are not too big to easily get back on the velcro. I do not have a problem with either of them laying flat and the ones I got do not feel like plastic (they have different kinds). However, they are deliberately low pile because I need to be able to easily roll things over them. They do have a cushioned pad but I cannot comments on that.
I would also hesitate to get one in the living room because the size would make it hard to manage – although I suspect that it would be pretty easy if you had two people.
Anon
My moisturizer is sold out and I’m down to the last one in my stash. I usually use La Roche Posay Toleriane Facial Fluide. Very, very lightweight. Any suggestions for a replacement until it is back in stock? I keep backups but it’s been out a while.
test run
I like the thickest moisturizer known to man, so I’m of no help here, but you might try: https://skinskoolbeauty.com/
You plug in a beauty product and it recommends dupes.
Anon
Neutrogena Hydroboost. Get the fragrance free. It’s very lightweight but effective and non-irritating.
Anon
The best face moisturizer I’ve ever used is Vanicream Facial Moisturizer. Easy to find at Target or drugstores.
Anonymous
It’s in stock almost everywhere, including but not limited to dermstore.
Anon
OMG Thank you! I literally placed an order at Dermstore last week and it was sold out then, and at the manufacturer, so I’ve been checking back at the manufacturer but didn’t think to check back with Dermstore. Just stocked up!
Anon
I’m a big fan of Glow Recipe’s watermelon moisturizers. They have a thick version that really soothes my sensitive skin in the winter (I use as an overnight mask a few times a week) and they have a thinner version that can be used every day. They have a banana version that is supposed to be amazing as well, so I’ve added it to my holiday wish list.
Avene
Take a look at the Avene offerings. Also French and I find they and La Roche Posay tend to make similar things.
Anonymous
My kids’ bed skirts both look horrible and askewed. If you DON’T have a bedskirt, what do you have? Is there a way to keep it neat?
Ribena
I have a bed frame (as opposed to a divan set up) without a skirt on it. I have matching tin trunks underneath the bed so that there’s something that looks ‘nice’ rather than just untidy.
Mon
I have a similar setup. Got a cushioned bed frame from Amazon for about $300 for a king mattress, and it’s much less fussy and easy to vacuum.
Anonymous
I have a box spring cover instead of a bedskirt.
test run
Same and my “box spring cover” is just a plan white fitted sheet that I had hanging around.
Cat
+1, I think of bed skirts as relics from my 80s-90s childhood.
Senior Attorney
+1
Anon
I put a fitted sheet on my son’s box spring because we could not keep the bedskirt straight. Then I bought a queen comforter for his full-size bed and the comforter hangs to the floor so no one can see the absolute nightmare horrorshow that exists under his bed. Bonus, he loves the larger comforter as he can wrap himself up like a burrito.
Anonymous
I had never even heard of a bed skirt till I had a roommate after college. What is the issue a bed skirt is trying to solve? Not seeing things stored under the bed?
Anonymous
Editing to add, rereading the comments, maybe they are to hide box springs? I’ve always had a platform bed so maybe that’s why we didn’t have one?
Anonymous
I have a deep fitted sheet around my mattress. Nothing that falls down to the floor – isn’t that just a terrible dust trap?
Coach Laura
Interesting and rather sad piece written by the former editor in chief of Working Mother magazine. https://www.huffpost.com/entry/working-moms-motherhood_n_61814121e4b03830d8381836
Anon
Oof. I relate to that so hard. But I think she’s being a little hard on herself. If she’s working as a freelance journalist, she hasn’t opted out of the workforce entirely, she’s just downgraded to a more flexible career. I think there is a tendency to devalue freelance work because it seems to be female-dominated and I don’t like that.
Anon
Everything the author talks about in that article is exactly why I only worked part-time from the time my kid was 2 until he was 6. Yes, I paid a professional and personal financial price for it. But the only other alternative was checking myself into a mental health care facility because I just could not do it any more. And I only had one child and a participatory husband. My son had special needs and getting those needs met, plus working, plus managing the household, plus looking after my own healthcare, plus maintaining personal relationships, plus helping my parents, plus plus plus – it was too much. Too much.
I thought then, and still think now, that the lack of structures provided for working mothers (mandatory paid parental and sick leave; subsidized quality childcare; flexible work arrangements, equal sharing of household duties, etc.) is not an accident, or due to a lack of attention to the issue. It is intentional. Many people (it’s not just men) still believe women (especially mothers) belong in the home. If we want to work, fine, but then we must run a never-ending and ever-escalating gauntlet of obstacles to stay in the workforce and experience even a modicum of success. It is a testament to the strength, resilience, grit and creativity of women that we have been able to make this sh*t sandwich of a situation work at all. Similar to the author, I remember thinking, before I scaled back, that working motherhood was the biggest sucker bet of all time. I still think that way, to an extent. I didn’t have a second child because I could not imagine adding more to the load or giving all my money over to childcare and outsourcing of household duties. I remember talking about this with my mother and her starting to cry because she felt the same way in 1983, when I was small, and in 20+ years nothing had changed. What is it going to take to get any momentum on this issue? Why are we battling people on the progressive side to get paid parental leave included in a bill, and then it’s only 4 weeks of leave, meaning someone is leaving their one-month-old child to return to work? This is so ridiculous it reads like dystopian fiction. Something’s gotta give.
Ses
This
Coach Laura
The Economist published this article about corporate clothing and dress codes. (The Economist may require registration but you get a few free articles per month.)
https://www.economist.com/business/2021/09/11/the-pandemic-has-refashioned-corporate-dress-codes?utm_medium=social-media.content.np&utm_source=linkedin&utm_campaign=editorial-social&utm_content=discovery.content.evergreen
Anon
I am returning to the office next week and am curious to see what everyone will be wearing! I plan to wear one of my usual outfits before the pandemic but would love to go more casual!