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Frugal Friday’s Workwear Report: Madison Georgette Button-Front Blouse

Our daily workwear reports suggest one piece of work-appropriate attire in a range of prices.

After a year of not buying much in the way of workwear, adding a few new tops is a good way to breathe some new life into your outfits. This green floral blouse from Torrid would be great in person or on a videoconference, where we’re all doing our best not to look completely washed out.

I would wear it tucked into a pencil skirt for the office, but it’s long enough to pair with leggings if you’re working from your home office.

The top is $49.50 and comes in sizes 00–6, which is equivalent to traditional sizes 10–30.

For a similar top in straight sizes, this CeCe blouse is available in XXS–XXL for $74 at Nordstrom.

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Sales of note for 12.5

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375 Comments

  1. Very pretty blouse, I need some new ones so I will check this out!

    I’ve seen people post here suggesting that if you want to feel refreshed after the weekend or a day off you have to actively do things, not just hang out and watch Netflix and do chores. I think I need to apply that philosophy to my after-work time, probably worsened by the pandemic. I feel more worn out on a day to day basis than I really should be, and I think part of it is the cycle from work-laptop to fun-laptop.

    I’ve also had a crazy busy past couple years, and just switched into a less stressful, less busy job a few months ago. I loved my previous high-powered job but it was not sustainable, so its been an adjustment. I’m actually earning more now, so it should be chill – better hours, higher pay. I’m single, mid-20s, no kids, live in a major city.

    What are some things you do after work to make yourself feel refreshed the next day? Years ago when I had time + there was not a pandemic I used to go to different exercise classes and volunteer at a local org. I’ve switched to morning exercising pretty successfully, I love to read, but somehow fell out of the habit – I’m definitely going to revive that because reading is one of the most restorative activities for me.

    1. Now that sunset is late, I spend about an hour or so outside with my kids after work. If it is warm enough, we eat dinner outside too. After sunset and my kids’ bedtimes, I watch one episode of TV with my husband, then I read on my Kindle. It is a really nice routine. If I didn’t have kids, I would eat and read outside by myself.

      Congrats on getting a better paying job with lower stress!

    2. I am also working on reviving my reading. Its not an immediate help, but I plan to start attending a book club at a local bookstore later this year. Maybe that would be a good option for you too.

      More immediately, I’ve found I feel best if I do three things in the evening: make myself a nice mocktail, change into cozy pajamas, and do a few stretches. Then I admittedly mostly move to watching netflix, but it feels more intentional this way.

    3. After a very stressful month both on the personal front and the work front, I went to the local spa for a soak in the hot tub and sauna. Then I had a leisurely meal eaten outdoors in the sun, followed by reading in the sun.

      Other things I’ve done to refresh/reset is to visit my local park to hike down the local stream/river and watch the water flow by for an hour or so before heading back.

      For reading – my favorite type of reading is when I can sit outside, read a paper book or use an e-ink reader, have a delicious beverage in reach, and turn off my phone notifications for a few hours while I read.

      1. I listen to books on my iphone, which is alot easier then reading them. I also can multitask by simeltaneously working on my computer, either from work or home. I am going to work later to submit my paperwork for the week, then have Lynn process my billings. We are pretty much open for busness now, with people rotating in 2-3 days a week. I am on the 2 day plan, b/c I also am preparing a CLE for June. Today is a nice day in NYC, so I am going to walk into work, and hope to get there by 11 am. YAY!

      2. Yes that sounds heavenly! Reading a paper book in a cafe or park with no phone in sight.

    4. I’ve got a toddler so my evenings are more hectic but I do make a conscious effort to get the effortful fun in there. On nights when I’m not in charge of bedtime, I shower, do my skincare routine, and read in bed. Now that the nights are getting longer and the weather is nice, I’ll sit outside and read, leaving my phone inside to avoid doomscrolling. I like to watch the birds, occasionally a neighbour will poke their head over the fence to have a chat. I prefer to exercise in the am, but sometimes I’ll go for a walk and listen to a podcast.

    5. I often spend the evening doing ‘project cooking’ and generally dancing around the kitchen. On Tuesday night I made and decorated a two layer birthday cake for a friend.

    6. Also mid 20s no kids major city with a life sucking job and I just feel beat. Here are some thing I do to feel better.

      – spend as much time in the park as possible. I read here, I drink my coffee here, I meet friends for happy hour picnics here.
      – leave my phone / laptop in the other room while I’m doing things to get a break – do random things that are pretty minor but feel special (treat myself to a fancy pastry for no reason)
      – take a walk after work (usually with friends)
      – pick up a hobby where I can make something. I have no interest in ever selling anything so it’s no pressure (as opposed to a hustle) but it feels so good to me to be like wow I made that. Could be cooking fancy meals, knitting, painting, gardening, pottery. Whatever

    7. Walking, reading, and once it’s safe for me to do so again, horseback riding (pandemic + injury I’m rehabbing). You’re very right that getting rid of the Netflix/chores routine can be so much more restorative on weeknights too.

    8. I do (actual) gardening/yard work. DH and I have been creating new landscaping beds and redoing existing landscaping and we both find it really rewarding because it’s a hobby that has visible output. Plus, it’s a little bit of exercise too.

      I spent the fall planting bulbs, winter planning out a few new beds and now we are building them.

      1. Actual gardening here as well – barefoot whenever possible. There’s something about interacting with the dirt that sings to my soul.

  2. Long shot: years(?) ago, someone posted a recommendation for a salon in Hinsdale,IL that specializes in cutting curly hair. Does anyone know how to find which salon/stylist that was? Searching the comments has failed me.

  3. Happy to report back from surgery. I had a ovarian cyst removed, was even bigger vs what initial scan showed, but doctor still managed to get it out through laparoscopy. First recovery day was tough – pain and cramps, but next day was better. They let me walk on day 2, which helped a lot. I could not imagine at that point I would be able to walk or lift from bed, but the recovery was fast and today, on day 3, I am already at home! Thanks everyone for good vibes and great recipes! My freezer is full of nice meals, that I look forward to eat. Question for those who went through this – were you taking anti-thrombotic shots after you left hospital?

    1. I’m glad you’re home and feeling better! I didn’t stay the night after my cyst (and ovary) were removed, nor did I take the thrombotic shots. I had a follow-up visit about 10 days after my surgery, by which time I was pretty much back to normal.

    2. Hello cyst twin! I just had the same procedure this week for a very large cyst. They sent me home the same day with no thrombotic shots. They did give me strong narcotics, which I was surprised by but very thankful for! Day 1 and 2 were super rough, but I have been amazed at how much things improve overnight. Hoping to do a little bit of walking today. Sending you positive, healing vibes!

    3. Y0our doctor is the only person that can give a qualified opinion if you need prophylactic anticoagulants. No one here your health history, and the vast majority are not MD’s anyways. Your health is not something to crowdsource.

      1. You should not assume everything your doctor does is correct. Cyst surgeries are common. If she asks around and realizes no one else was rx the shots, there is no harm in asking her doc, why are you prescribing me these? It’s my understanding this is not common. Then the doc can say it is a new protocol or there is something in OPs health history. She probably doesn’t want to bug her doctor if she doesn’t need to and if everyone here said it was normal, she wouldn’t bother asking the doc.

      2. Yeah, this is the exact opposite from everyone I’ve heard who has had to do their own research for chronic illnesses, often initially in conflict with a Dr’s opinion, but then later confirmed through objective means. You talk to people, here their experiences, use that as a jumping off point, check in with the Dr, hear if their explanation makes sense, compare against other people’s experiences, get a second opinion if it’s still not adding up. Self-advocacy is a good thing and absolutely necessary, especially in America. It’s not about “crowdsourcing” health, it’s not about trusting internet strangers more than doctors, it’s about knowing what to ask the professionals to make your doctors work better for you (because you are their client, not the other way around).

        1. I think sometimes other professionals imagine that doctors have expertise in the same sense that they do. My experience is that if a doctor says something wildly, demonstrably wrong, there’s no real correction mechanism or feedback loop (short of malpractice suits I guess which would not be the correct response to a doctor saying something mistaken). I have had a provider read TSH backwards (woohoo your TSH went up; your thyroid is doing great!). I’ve had them tell me that I can’t possibly have a condition because of testing negative on a test with middling sensitivity, even though I tested positive on another much more specific and less sensitive test (and have family history, and responded to treatment, etc.). I’ve had them run an antibody test and decide that I must be cured of an autoimmune disease because I was negative for antibodies that day (despite many positive test results over the years) and yank me off treatment (with the result that I became ill and definitely tested positive next time around). I have a great deal of respect for good physicians, but it’s kind of the wild west out there, and it doesn’t help when they’re overworked and pressed for time. I know it’s unfair to compare what a patient knows about their handful of conditions to what a doctor knows about 10,000 issues they need to be able to handle. But you can easily do more reading on your handful of conditions than your doctor has ever had time to do (and it will all be fresh in your memory too).

    4. Thank you all! Yes, I intend to stick to doctor’s orders 100%, was just curious (I have nothing in patient history that would suggest I am a high risk of thrombosis, but I trust the doctor).
      LSC – amazing how the body heals! I feel the same – getting better every day. Good luck with recovery!

  4. I’m going to schedule a hair cut soon (my first since January 2020!), and am wondering if a Deva cut/curly-specific cut is a good idea. My hair is 2c/3a and relatively fine. I’ll probably still blow-dry and flat-iron it on occasion, and am wondering if a Deva cut will look strange when straightened. However, I do tend to wear my hair curly more often in the summer due to the heat and humidity. So maybe this is a good time to give a Deva cut a try? Any advice from others who have had a similar cut or have a similar hair type?

    1. I got one Deva Cut, and it looked so very 80s on me. Whether curly or straight, it just had a very dated look. It was evenly layered, I just didn’t like anything about it. I’m thinking about trying an Ouidad cut in the future. My hair is mixed texture, 2b to 3a.

    2. I had a Deva cut a few years ago, and I was not a fan. I wear a chin/shoulder length bob and my hair lays better curly if I just have layers cut in a regular cut. I am 2c/3a and typically have a swing bob that lays nicely straightened or curly.

    3. I would not do this if you ever want to wear your hair straight. I’ve never gotten a Deva cut specifically, but I do get a dry cut where the hairdresser cuts one curl family at a time. My hair is 3B and fine for reference. The ends would look very strange straightened because my curls aren’t all identical. I never wear my hair straight, so I’d rather it look just right when it’s curly. My curls look a lot better and the shape of my hair is much more flattering since I’ve been getting the dry cuts, so I do recommend that process, just not if you ever want it to look really polished while straight.

      1. A deva cut is just a dry cut of each individual curl. It’s not a specific style or anything, it’s a method of cutting hair.

    4. I prefer the Ouidad method. My hair is 3a/3b and I rarely wear it straight.

  5. Dumb makeup Q. I should get rid of all my foundations that I haven’t used for a year, even though they still smell OK, right?

    1. Granted I don’t have sensitive skin, but I wouldn’t pitch them. If the consistency is off when you apply it, by all means dispose, but I’m pretty sure I’ve been working my way through the same tube of BB cream for a year and a half now.

      (Products in tubes like that I feel especially fine with using for that long, because your finger doesn’t actually touch the portion of the product that you’re not using.)

      1. +1. I get rid of anything that has changed consistency, but otherwise cheerily ignore the advice to pitch makeup. I use brushes that are regularly cleaned so am not touching any of my makeup.

      2. And oxygen doesn’t get in. I think that’s more important for makeup longevity.

    2. If the tube/jar was not open, you can use it. If the product was open and the consistency/texture on skin is fine, I would use it (my skin is super sensitive). I read your question as makeup = foundation. In general, products which are fat-based last longer (vs water-based).

      1. Thx all! Some of them have separated a bit, so I will get rid of those but keep the rest. :)

    3. I went through and did a big product purge a few weeks ago. Anything at all liquid-y in an open container got pitched – so a foundation or cream in a dispenser pump or a powder blush were fine but their equivalents in open cream pots got thrown out. As did lipsticks I haven’t worn in over a year!

    4. There is an expiration symbol on every cosmetic product. It will be a number with a triangle around it. That is the number of months the product will last.

      1. I would give these even less credence than I give the ones on food, which is very little.

    5. I’m just getting rid of everything, largely because it wasn’t anywhere near new in March 2020. Some of the stuff is probably over 2-3 years old at this point.

    6. I did a big purge of my travel stuff and I went by the number of months on the label. I do have sensitive skin and I didn’t want to cause new problems just because I wanted to save a couple of bucks. I will hold on to powders for longer but creams and liquids have to go. Lipsticks/glosses start to have an off taste and odor so for sure throw any out any that feel different.

    7. Hahaha. I’ve got foundation from my wedding in 2013 that still looks and smells perfectly fine.

  6. NYers, where would you recommend living if you were working in Tribeca? Looking for a single family home with a commute of less than an hour and in good school district. Budget of up to $800k.

    1. Tribeca is at the bottom of Manhattan so your best bets are NJ or BK (“brownstone Brooklyn” is very pricey, but farther out areas are more reasonable. Check out Windsor Terrace, I have a lot of friends who moved there recently and all seem happy) if you want a single family home, but honestly single family home is going to be tough with a less than one hour commute (& a good school district) in that price range. In the 1-1.15 hr range you can expand your search to Queens. School districts vary. Astoria, Sunnyside and Forest Hills are pretty good I think).

      1. One more thought – I don’t actually know much about it, but Staten Island is just across the water from Tribeca and the commute would be generally fine, esp. if you were walking distance to the ferry.

      2. You will be very hard pressed to find a single family home in Windsor Terrace for under 800k. (I live in adjoining Kensington, which is slightly cheaper and only houses in need of a lot of work would be that cheap here). Honestly i would look at Zillow to get a feel for where that is possible. I think you are likely going to need to go to Staten Island, NJ or much deeper in Brooklyn or Queens if you want a single family home. Maybe Bay Ridge or Sunset Park in Brooklyn, but I’m not sure you’d be happy with the schools (meaning I’m really not sure – unfamiliar with their reputation). Staten Island is much more affordable and is a fairly easy commute to lower Manhattan but it’s culturally quite different from a lot of NYC (much whiter and more conservative). How old are your kids? NYC public schools are all one massive system. For elementary school, kids are generally zoned for a neighborhood school within walking distance. So you have to research the individual schools. For middle school, districts come into play more – kids use public transit to get to school and generally are put in one in their district. High school doesn’t have geographic constraints (as far as I know). Keep in mind that test scores are not necessarily a good way to evaluate the quality of a school- the Inside Schools website is useful for public school profiles within the city.

    2. You won’t get a SFH for that price in nyc except in an outer borough that would be outside your commuting range and wouldn’t have good schools. I might recommend New Jersey. I have friends in Hoboken and Jersey City who seem happy with their locations, but even Jersey single family homes might be out of your range. My friends who own there all paid over $1mn.

        1. Although they are less than I thought they’d be. I had thought that the SALT deduction limit made NJ particularly unattractive to have (so less expensive, relative to past prices, to purchase). My parents live there and we need to sell their house eventually to move them to my sunbelt city (which, now that everyone from the NEUS is moving there, has gotten very pricey lately). Parents are: we want to time the peak. So if there is SALT limit repeal, I think it will make it more demand and more expensive. Who knows???

      2. Omg do not come to Jersey City if you want good schools. They are trash. I’d look at Maplewood but you’ll be getting a small old house.

          1. But be prepared for a huge tax bill, which may affect how much house you can actually buy. An $800k house in Maplewood is going to have an annual tax bill approaching $20k.

          2. Agree with Sarabeth on watching out for property taxes and factoring that into how much you can afford. In the town where I grew up (very highly rated schools), property tax bills of $30-50K per year are not uncommon.

          3. Also Maplewood had an absolute crapshow this year with huge unsolvable fights between their union and district, rendering schools totally closed all year despite neighboring towns being open. I know many Maplewood families who left or considered moving as a result.

      3. Hoboken/Jersey City is a great option (20-30 min to Tribeca), but that price range will get you a 2B apartment, not a single family home. Also to consider, public schools in Jersey city/Hoboken are not great, and you may need to also consider paying for private.

    3. Check out areas of Long Island just past the Queens border. Rockville Centre for instance is a ~35 min train ride to Penn Station + 20 minute subway ride down to TriBeCa on the 2/3. Good schools and you should be able to get a SFH in that price range.

      1. You could also try southern Westchester. 30-40 min commute on Metro North to Grand Central, then ~15 min subway ride to Canal St, Chambers St, or Fulton St on 4/5/6. You could also do shuttle to Times Square and then 1/2/3 which would be about 20 min but less walking.
        I don’t know much about the schools, but you could try somewhere like Fort Lee / Cliffside Park, NJ and either take a bus or ferry + subway.

    4. No idea why I’m stuck in mod. Check parts of Long Island. 30 or 40 minute commute to Penn plus 20 minute subway to tribeca. Rockville Centre for instance.

    5. Does not exist. You’re either going to have to up your budget by a lot, take on a brutal commute, or not buy a SFH. I’d opt for the latter.

      1. Kind of agree. If you expanded to 90 min commute to Tribeca (which is far downtown and therefore less commuter friendly) and/or being ok with a townhouse/apartment, you’d have a lot more flexibility.

      2. +1. This was my initial thought as well, especially given that Tribeca is an extra 20 min (at least) from Penn Station or Grand Central. Single family home makes it tough.

      3. Hard agree. You need to buy a condo in Hoboken and save 10 hours a week commuting.

  7. We’ve been having a lot of decorating discussions here lately, so tell me how strongly you feel about ceiling fans. We have a bunch of the builder grade white ceiling fans from the previous owner. They work, but they are blah looking. I was thinking about steadily replacing them with more modern styles, but at least $200 a piece, it’s not a cheap project in our house.

    1. We need a new fan in our bedroom because ours is noisy and off-balance in a way we’ve been unable to fix, but shopping gave me sticker shock. I actually do want a plain minimalist white fan to blend into the ceiling, but they’re still a fortune.

    2. So we are on a similar mission. Just start with the fans that are most visible (for us that was the living/family room one). Switching from a dumpy old white one (frankly the blades had started to sag after years of humidity) to a new, more tailored/modern style was like giving the room a facelift.

      We DIYed the installation bc DH is comfortable with basic electrical work (I was the muscle in the situation which caused my arms/shoulders to ache for a full day after…), but don’t forget to budget for the electrician if you guys aren’t.

    3. I love having them (big sleep with the fan on person – I’m in my first apartment in.6 years without ceiling fans and omg I miss them!), but I have no strong feelings in what they look like.

      What about replacing them in living room/dining room and then slowly expanding to the bedrooms?

    5. I am a ceiling fan stan — having a light breeze in the bedroom makes a world of difference for me. If you already have ceiling fans and just want to replace them, this might be a good opportunity to learn some basic wiring skills (Lowes/HD often have weekend clinics). Otherwise I don’t think you need an electrician, just a handyman to swap them out.

      We have put Minka Aire Wave fans in all our bedrooms and I big puffy heart love them. So powerful and so quiet.

      2. Was just going to say, we’ve been slowly replacing the Lowe’s/Home Depot cheap ones with Minka fans and they are such a huge visual upgrade. Replacing them is only a little more complicated than swapping out a light fixture, so if that’s something you’d do yourself, you can very likely do this on your own as well.

    6. I’m glad to see people liking ceiling fans again. I think I watched too many HGTV shows where the first thing they said was “and OF COURSE the ceiling fan has to go!” I don’t have ceiling fans because they’re beautiful, I have them because I need them. There is nothing like sleeping under a ceiling fan on low on a warm summer night.

  8. Fashion mavens, what’s in style for sleek low-profile fashion sneakers?

    Looking for dark solid colors, in a minimal Euro-style shape (versus giant chunky American sneakers) that will minimize my Sasquatch feet (10 wide).

    1. No suggestions but I will be following, as I have very large feet particularly for my height (9.5-10 duck feet).

      Those grandpa white huge honking leather gym shoes that the kids are wearing look so so awful to my eye. The absolute least flattering shoe I could possibly wear. Especially as my father still wears them and they are essentially orthopedic shoes for the elderly and at least he buys the black ones, which look better.

    2. I also have Sasquatch feet and have the Naturalizer Marianne sneakers. If you want the whole sneaker to be dark solid colors, wool Allbirds also fit my big wide feet pretty well. The non-wool can be a little tight though.

    5. ECCO makes some very comfortable low profile sneakers. They fit my duck feet (after I gave up on Cole Haan) and I can wear them all day.

    6. I love my Adidas Gazelles … they’re black leather with gold stripes. Maybe not trendy, but classic.

  9. Random unsolicited product recommendation after the swimwear conversation yesterday… I have been getting fb ads for cup she brand bathing suits, and ordered a bunch from amazon. I’ve heard that cup she’s return policy is not great, which is why I didn’t order from their website directly. Anyway, I am a short-waisted 5’3′ hourglass with a DDD chest, and I have never in my life found more flattering one piece swimsuits. I kept three of the six I ordered. Really nice quality for the price.

    1. Thanks! Is the name really Cup She? That seems awful (but happy for the recommendation).

    2. I purchased two Cupshe bikinis this year and am also really happy with them. (I have essentially no chest).

    3. I love cupshe suits!! I think they updated their return policy – as of January of this year, I had the option to mail back my suits for a full refund, or keep the suits I didn’t want and get store credit for more than I paid. I’m very hard on swimsuits with water sports and the suits I have from there are still in great condition

    4. I looked them up on your rec! Unfortunately I need a LOT of support (g cup here) but did find beautiful vintage-style highwaisted underwire one piece suits (just google all those terms together on Amazon). Ordered a bunch – hope they look as good on me as on all the reviewers with lovely diverse bodies!

  10. I’ve been super burnt out for the last few months – just working crazy hours in a very stressful job. So, on my few days off (usually had 1 day off every 2-3 weeks), I would just veg and muster up the energy to visit friends (I’m a huge extrovert; also – everyone is fully vaccinated). I have barely run errands (think I grocery shopping once a month), cooked, cleaned, worked out, done any of my hobbies, etc. because work was too consuming.

    I have today off and have decided that I”m finally ready to be a person again. I have a massage scheduled in the AM and plans with a friend in the afternoon, but I’m going to spend the bulk of my day actually getting my life back together, making healthy choices, etc. and I’m so excited.

    The rest of my weekend is somewhat occupied (I am visiting some relatives tomorrow and have a bridal shower on Sunday) so I can’t take the whole weekend to do what I need to do, but just having 5 or so hours today is exciting.

    Since I can’t do it all – what would you prioritize? I should probably workout, I definitely need to clean, I have laundry I can do, I would like to do something fun too. I have plenty of non-grocery errands to run (but have grocery delivery coming Sunday so don’t need that). I don’t want to run myself ragged today, since I’m FINALLY feeling like I can the energy and capacity to do something I don’t want to over do it.

    1. 1) Clean, because having a neat and tidy house is conducive to doing other things.
      2) You can probably do laundry while you clean.
      3) Get any materials or equipment you need for your hobbies, and now that you have a clean house, set up where in your house you’re going to them.

      When I was in your position the only errands I did were tidying up, laundry, and I got grocery delivery.
      I tried to go to classpass classes, that was the closest I got to a hobby. I put holds on a bunch of books on the library app so those would come in, and ordered some other used books.
      If you’re getting a massage, maybe also get your eyebrows done / mani / pedi – things that should be relaxing but also are good things to get done.

    2. I would put laundry on now, and while the first load runs clean the bathroom and kitchen. Shift it to the dryer, put another load in, and change out your sheets and towels and vacuum and tidy living spaces. Shift the loads through again and go for a nice walk downtown and buy a cute candle and get lunch out.

    3. If it’s possible, I would prioritize everything but cleaning and hire a one time cleaner. We did that last week and there is no way I could have mustered the energy to get the place half as clean as she did. The ROI was great.

      1. While I’d love to do that, clutter and things bring put back in the wrong place in a hurry is more of my problem than needing to vacuum or dust (which I need to do too. I just need too… but clutter is more pressing)

        1. Ahh got it. Then clean but only while blasting music you love :) that way it’s a party, too. It’s amazing how many dishes I can get done in the time it takes to listen to Hotel California.

    1. Oh I love this jumpsuit! Is Lulus good quality? I keep seeing cute stuff in their ig ads. (Sorry for the threadjack!)

      1. I would say for the price, yes! I have 15+ dresses from them and all of the summer dresses have held up well for the last 3-4 years. Some of their items can run short, but check out the reviews to see if it’ll be a problem. Also if you have a Delta Amex, they will have cash back deals every few months – spend $50 get $10 back.

    2. I like the idea of ear crawlers/climbers rather than something dangly – might be more modern and versatile. I’ve received a lot of compliments on my Gorjana Olympia ear climbers and they come in right around your price point. Etsy also has a ton of similar options.

      2. Wow I really like these, thank you! The clear Warren Steven Scott earrings are stunning

    4. Abby, anecdata of one — I wore a beautiful dress in black from a local designer (total splurge) to my last black tie optional wedding and felt out of place among a lot of glorious bright rent the runway dresses and jumpsuits. It was in northern CA at a vineyard, so it might be different in different places (like in NYC area I feel like everyone wears black). The jumpsuit is beautiful though.

      1. Oh no really?? This is my first black tie optional wedding and I thought you were supposed to wear dark colors. It’ll be in Chicago, I may have to look for a new dress. Thank you for sharing!

        1. Black tie optional just indicates that men would be expected to wear tuxedos or very formal dark suits. For women, dark colors like navy or burgundy would be fine, and expect lots of jewel tones. Generally, regardless of formality, most women don’t wear black to weddings, but it’s not unheard of. You do you, but the jumpsuit in navy is similarly gorgeous!

          1. I completely disagree. I’ve worn a black dress to almost every wedding I’ve ever attended. And so do most of my friends and my mom. Historically ive mostly attended black tie/black tie optional weddings in the north east

          2. I’m invited to a black tie opt/formal wedding for October and we were specifically asked to wear black! Haha

        2. I think if it’s summer, I’d go not black, but in Chicago in the winter, I’d say 50% of the guests are wearing black.

          Honestly, the emerald green color in that jumpsuit looks beautiful – maybe that one with some gold accessories?

          1. I’m borrowing it from a friend so this particular jumpsuit is available to me in black right now, but I am tempted to buy one for myself because it fits like a dream.

          2. Late reply but wear the black with a very colorful sheer shawl type thing with a black background. This strategy got me through a lot of weddings in my late 20s/early 30s. I actually home-sewed a lot of my shawls/scarves. It’s the kind of thing you drape around your shoulders if it’s chilly or just have over your arm if it’s warmer. Most weddings I went to were some combination of warm and chilly (like an afternoon ceremony under the sun, then an overly air conditioned dinner inside)

  12. I am feeling like I am the only person without a dedicated home office. I was living in a 2BR with kids beginning of the pandemic. Spouse is on calls all day and is LOUD. We didn’t have enough soft surfaces to avoid the echo. Now we are in a bigger space but we just can’t afford more space and we may be back to the office soon (half-vaxxed) and kids are back in school 4 days a week and I feel like why bother, just muddle through? I can easily do 1-2 hours at night on the kitchen island, end of a couch (esp. if mere reading / reviewing things that I don’t need to spreadsheet or have reference materials open for), my half of the bed.

    Is it just a background expectation now to have a home office? Like having a computer and wifi at home and always being reachable via mobile device? I kind of hate work intruding in my life any more than needed and have always lived in small urban spaces so I could have a relatively short non-anger-generating commute (so to get to the actual office) and deal with kid pickups in a tight radius.

    1. I want to back on the idea that a home office is a given. That means essentially 2 extra bedroom-size spaces to accommodate 2 working members of a couple. If it evolves into an expectation, that means corporations are pushing real estate costs onto workers, not cool. My husband works in our bedroom and I work in one of our empty nest bedrooms/guest room, which is fine when there are no guests but not usable when our grown kids or guests sleep over. OTOH, I am very happy working from home the 99% of the time no one is visiting.

      2. I love the idea of a workroom, but for most people right now that’s not going to be realistic and the vast majority of existing housing stock doesn’t use space in a way that allows for it. Could it be a thing going forward? Absolutely, but it’ll have to be something clients ask their architects/builders for. Builders build what they think will sell.

      3. If it makes you feel better, I live in Manhattan and I work in our bedroom. My husband works in the hall next to the bathroom where our little kids may or may not shut the door… We are both midlevel/senior people at investment banks.

        1. Same — not in Manhattan, but in SF. My home office is a desk in my bedroom, and I use zoom backdrops 100% of the time.

        2. I’m on the west coast working with New Yorkers on a project and it doesn’t look like anyone has their own office to me. A lot of bedrooms and zoom angles chin up to the ceiling (which I usually interpret as not wanting to show what is behind you ).

        3. In Bay Area and I work in my closet. Bonus is that there are minimum two doors between me and the kids.

    2. I don’t think it is a background expectation. I have a home office because I live in a LCOL suburb so I have extra bedrooms, and I preferred to work from home when I had work on nights and weekends. If I lived in a more expensive area, there is no way I would pay that much extra for a home office.

    3. I’m in academia and there is definitely a split between professors (all who bought in our expensive city ages ago) and more junior staff, who are working from bedrooms/sitting rooms etc. We moved for more space, but my husband snagged the spare bedroom and I’m working from the sunroom, so I look like I’m outside on video. I think it’s something people are okay with, or they should be, but I do expect we’ll all end up subsidising our employers.

      1. Yes — people who refuse to come back to the office are getting told not to expect a dedicated office (so eventually shrinking the footprint and real estate spend) but I know 100% no one is going to underwrite a home office for me (they do say take a ream of paper with you when you come in now though, but dude I am burning through toner some months b/c my eyes can’t take so much screen reading).

        1. My former company was actually shrinking space well before the pandemic and people with partial WFH alternate work arrangements were going to be losing their cubicles and going to hoteling.

          1. Yeah, this has been going on a long time. Whether you decide to have a home office also depends on how much control you want to have over your workspace and if you want to work at home in the future. If the kids are in school, I’d repurpose a corner of the living room/ rethink the dining room, basically find space in a less used part of the house for a pretty desk to work from.

          2. Agree that it has being going on for a while. I introduced WFH one day per week in 2012 for my staff, despite my manager’s objection that I was giving them a free day off. I asked him to treat it as a trial and told everyone with kids that they still needed childcare but it would save them a commute – we were on the honor system there – and it worked really well.

            But my manager only got on board when he figured out that if people worked 2-3 days a week from home, they could alternate using the same workspace in our office and we could cut our real estate chargeback in half. THEN he was interested.

            I originally did it for work/life balance and as sort of a perk. He did it for $$. I don’t work there anymore but as of early 2020, very few people had a dedicated workspace anymore.

    4. It’s not in my region (Northeast), but I think people also have smaller homes generally. Most people are working from a dining room table or even a desk in their bedroom. A few people who have home offices, but it’s either office/den or office/guest room.

      Although – someone with whom I frequently collaborate has my personal favorite ‘home office’ story. When they bought this house, it had a big master walk in closet with a window. She kinda thought that was unnecessary, but whatever. WELL. Pandemic, small kids, needing to work from home. To take conference calls, she added a hook and eye latch and started locking herself in the closet with a TV table and desk chair. Fast forward a few months and she and her husband have a schedule for the ‘office’ and he took his suits out and added an old curtain as a backdrop so it doesn’t look like a closet and… that’s ‘the office’. (And yes, there is still a negotiated schedule of who gets to use it because it’s still the quietest part of the house.)

      1. I have this closet and the builder thought I was not crazy for building it out and I agree: it has the best light and highest R value in the house.

      2. This is really interesting! My parents built a home with a closet window, and my mom does nothing but complain that it fades her clothes, even with a blackout shade.

    5. I have a 4BR house, but the entire downstairs is “open concept” and noisy as F b/c someone is always eating (two kids zoom schooling until just recently + college kid periodically home for shutdowns or very long winter break or summer or visits) or cooking or the dog barks at something or someone is on a zoom call talking loudly. I feel like not only did work push a lot of home office expectations onto us, but the old expectation that you can’t realistically WFH much w/o FT child care was never more true. Even if I had had an office, I couldn’t go in at 8 and walk out at 6 and do work 100% of that time. I could do that (minus lunch at my desk) at the office, but just was not the way to live in an family environment (e.g., if I tried to do that on vacation, it would seem weird and certainly not sustainable over the year). I eat what I kill at work, so I just resigned myself to the equivalent of a .75 FTE effort on a good day and tried to make my peace with it. I usually WFH some each day after leaving early (b/c kids, worked 99% at work pre-kids), but this year made me realize that lack of a dedicated home office was not really what my problem was. “Family at home” wasn’t even a problem — it was just where my challenge was. Had I known it would be >1 year of this, I’d have tried to get a PT nanny / housekeeper / Alice-from-Brady Bunch but it was always “just another month” of the pandemic or until school resumed, so we bought a Roomba and honestly that helped a lot (full heavy-use houses don’t clean themselves).

      1. Working from home made me really happy to have an older house with the opposite of open concept and doors everywhere. I have taken over a small room off my living room as my office and I can actually shut the door.

        My downstairs has 10 interior doors and at least three doorways that no longer have a door, so originally 13ish. I think it was all about keeping the heat in whatever room you wanted back a century or so ago.

    6. Nope, I don’t have a dedicated home office. My workstation is currently on my dining table, so that means I end up eating meals either on the kitchen island or on the coffee table. And I’m single no kids.
      I am completely against the idea that employers should just assume everyone has a dedicated home office now, unless it’s been spelled out specifically somewhere official (handbook, offer letter, something). Not everyone can afford to live somewhere with enough space for two or three people (think young adults in roommate situations in the cities), if employers want to assume that then they should pay their employees more to afford a home office space.

    7. I think this is also a consequence of “open concept” homes that have been all the rage in the past two decades of home construction. When you make the entire first (1,200 sq foot) floor open, you eliminate a lot of flexibility. In order homes, it’s often easier to find smaller rooms that aren’t bedrooms to use. My office is in my formal dining room with doors that close (novel concept, right?) and my office before that was actually kind of in my bathroom– I lived in a Victorian with this “dressing area” right off the bathroom (that wasn’t part of the bathroom) that was about 5×5′ and perfect for slotting a desk into. Older homes often have these small little spaces that can be re-used and re-imagined.

        1. It was pretty dreamy– it had this beautiful window with real leaded glass and iron panes and it looked out onto the garden. Plus the light was super flattering for video calls. If only my area had more old homes!

      2. Yes – I’ve never cared for open floor plans – too damn noisy and I do NOT want my messy kitchen visible from the front door. I hope the pandemic persuades more buyers that there are other, great options that aren’t “one giant room”.

        1. I *hate* open floor plans (so. loud. I don’t need to hear/see everything in the kitchen when I am watching tv in the living room), and it was a struggle to find houses without one when we were looking. We found one built in the late 80s that is the best of both worlds–it has distinct kitchen, dining, living rooms, so I can’t see my living room from my kitchen, but somewhere along the way, the doors between the kitchen and dining room and living room got removed. I really hope builders (and people renovating) veer away from open floor plans.

          1. My current house is 3/2, 1000 sf – textbook 1960’s starter house, so LR/Dining area are sort of unavoidably together, but at least the kitchen is visually separate. There is a (honestly, pretty useless) pass through from kitchen to living room, but it’s cut high enough that you can’t see the crap on my kitchen counter, so I can deal.
            One other thing I don’t get about new builds – bathrooms that are bigger than my bedroom. The ones in this house are 5X7 feet each. I thought I’d hate it, but turns out…. how much time does one really spend in there anyway, and it’s not like you need to spread out to do any of it.
            If I was starting from a blank piece of paper, there are things I would do differently in the same overall square footage, but I don’t know that I’d go any bigger and definitely wouldn’t do an open floor plan.

        2. My dream layout is a living room and dining room and eat in kitchen open to a family room. I like walls and doors and separation and separate spaces for adults and kids

        4. This. We have an old New England home and we LOVE that it has actual rooms. I don’t want to see the messy kitchen when we’re eating our Thanksgiving dinner in the dining room! I don’t want kitchen smells to be all over the entire downstairs! I love that we can read in our front living room while someone else watches TV in the next room over but the sound/visuals are blocked out.

      3. Absolutely – this is the perfect time to have an early 1900s house (or older) with a “maid’s room” or other spaces built as servant quarters

      4. Yep. My house was built in 1982. Our home office was a formal dining room. There are archways on either side, and it would be easy to add folding doors or pocket doors. We switched out a crappy chandelier for a ceiling fan.

        We actually did some renovations to open the kitchen up to the living room, mostly because my husband wanted that. (He’s the one who cooks, and he didn’t like being alone in the kitchen.) Fortunately, the wall between the living and dining room is structural, and we didn’t have the budget to open that wall up. Once the pandemic hit, I figured it would hurt resell value to take away a potential home office space, so that wall is staying up.

      5. And then people buy them and tear down all the old internal walls to “open them up.” It drives me crazy.

        Especially when you have little kids and are trying to work, it is very handy to have a door to shut.

    8. What are you even talking about? No. We haven’t all got home offices. I work at my table which is also my kitchen table and my crafting table. If your spouse is so loud you can’t work tell him to hush.

      1. IDK — a lot of people are talking all day and in meetings. I know I’m not loud when I talk, but I am talking and that would annoy an office-mate. There is no conference room to reserve. My closet is just a rolling rack over on one side of my room. And then in railroad apartments, someone always has to cut through to use the bathroom, which is very much not great (are railroad apartments a thing anywhere but around NYC and also in New Orleans???). I know quants and traders who WFH and they are on calls always and also needed room for their many computer monitors. In NYC you rent the least you can get away with “because the city is your living room” and I am just watching Seinfeld and Friends reruns and getting bitter.

        TL;DR: we can’t whisper on work calls. Truly. I try to listen as much as I can but need to talk. I’m sorry it bothers people. I didn’t have a choice in this.

        1. It’s not even me, I share wall with people home on calls, too. Cheap drywall + dogs barking + some alarm or siren outside = I need the equivalent of a panic room or bondage dungeon to go into where no one will hear my screaming (and I won’t hear the world). Kidding. Sort of.

          1. I mean, it’s been a year. I just need a reset. I make things hard on others. I feel bad about that. IDK what I can do. It’s not like my suburban coworkers who can go into their car for calls when their house is noisy. Just hoping we get to the other side quickly and never have to revisit this. Bad time to be in sales and sharing space with a help desk worker.

    9. Yeah, it bugs me as well that we’re subsidizing employers with free office space, and that part of my decision to move here was a short commute which I haven’t done for a year and won’t for a while. We also upgraded to better internet and pay an additional $15-20 per month on utilities from being home all day.
      My consolation is that in the long run, there will be many employers who will offer much more flexibility, even if some will try to turn back the clock.

      1. We had a really cold winter, so my utilities are much higher b/c we have the heat at comfort level all the time. Probably 3x as much as when we are gone all day.

      2. So happy to see here that I’m not the only one a little annoyed at the expectations about WFH spaces and a little leery that employers will try to push office costs onto employees.

        To be fair, my office leadership could care less what your WFH space is like (in a good way! There’s no judgment if pets or small children occasionally drop in on a Zoom) and even though we have been 100% telework since the pandemic began, they have made provisions for people who have undesirable WFH set-ups (very small space, living in a group home, etc.) to be able to go to the office from time to time.

        I live in a one-bedroom apartment. It’s a decent size, but I still have to work either at my dining table or on my couch. It’s not terrible, but I don’t love it.

        1. I’m with you! I can WFH fine at night every day (I like to leave for dinner and WFH later if needed), but not for days on end. I am in a MCOL city but a high-cost close-in area and I feel like my zooms are all people who moved an hour out to a 5BR so that they could have dedicated home offices for each spouse and any kid had a room with a door and maybe a playroom / school room. But since that’s all I’ve seen for a year, it seems like everyone but me lives in a Pottery Barn / Restoration Hardware set. My floors aren’t even level and things are out of square and half the year doors even stick or don’t shut. :(

      3. Yes! Upper management suggested we could start to permanently WFH and I was only half joking when I responded that I’d send them my internet bill.

          2. Same here, they allowed us to request a monitor and to take our office chair and peripherals home.

          3. We have a set amount we can deduct for internet/office supplies, and everyone got a fixed amount in 2021 for their home office set up, which was a nice push to finally get a new chair!

      4. This, so much. I bought my tiny house specifically to be walking-distance from work. I am going to start working from the office again as soon as they’ll let me, because that was the whole point! Otherwise I’d need to sell and buy something bigger out in the suburbs, but I don’t want to do that for multiple reasons.

    10. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, I work from home and I do not check email after hours and I do not allow other people to intrude on my set work hours without a very good reason. I am not reachable at all times and I will not become reachable at all times even if work from home stays the norm for us.

      I see a lot of posts like this and it honestly sounds like you just have not tried to set the boundary yet. Try it and then report back.

      1. P.S., we have two people working from home in a 1000 square-foot apartment with one guest bedroom serving as an office. It’s still completely possible to unplug and separate from work at the end of the day.

      2. I didn’t WFH before, but I am the same. When I shut it down, I shut it down. Doesn’t matter where I am.

    11. Nope. Higher-ups in my org clearly have real home offices but they also live in like, 4000+ square foot homes. The regular worker bees that I video with are set up in a mix of guest rooms, kitchen areas, dining rooms, etc.

      My own desk is in a corner of the living room that I don’t have to look at once done for the day (TV is the other corner). DH also works from home and he’s in the guest room. No kids but if we did, they would be Zoom schooling from their bedrooms.

      1. Agree. The partners tend to have home offices, but they also make something like 9x more than I do on average per year and therefore can afford the giant houses in suburbs with lots of extra rooms. Most non-partners work from their bedroom/dining room/living room. I personally work from my bedroom. I make my bed every day and have nice throw pillows on it. You usually can’t even see it because my shoulders mostly block it on Zoom.

    12. No one expects me to have a home office but it is sure not ideal that I don’t. I have done video calls sitting on the floor of my closet because it was the only place the kids didn’t think to look for me. I have worked from my car to get a little quiet. Some part of me seriously considered working in our quasi-attic even though it’s completely uninsulated just because the kids can’t get up there. If someone had told me when we moved to our current spot that we’d be trying to work/parent/online school all at once inside I think we would have tried for a bigger place and/or a fully fenced yard where the kids could run around outside without a parent right there. That said, I know plenty of people are trying to do more with less so I feel bad complaining.

    13. The only people I know with home offices are mid-career or senior professionals without kids in the house (empty nesters or never had kids), the extremely wealthy, or, in the case of one person, a friend who somehow finagled a $150k 4-bedroom in a MCOL city with a hot real estate market.

      It wasn’t all that long ago that it was common for kids to share bedrooms growing up. The concept of just having an entire extra bedroom is unusual.

      We’re in a 2 bed/2 bath right now; me, husband, baby. If WFH becomes permanent for me, we will probably move really close to my husband’s job and get a bigger place. He’s a professor at a uni well outside of any big city, so we’ve been doing long commutes for our marriage. Basically, we would exchange large commuting expenses for more house.

      1. Your comment about kids sharing bedrooms reminds me of an exhibit in a museum I saw years ago. The exhibit was about the development of suburbs, and featured an original advertisement for a 800 square foot, 2-bedroom house with a small yard. The ad was specifically about how this house was excellent for large families with many children.

        1. I remember when I was a kid in the 70s/80s that it was NBD for kids to share a bedroom. Now it’s treated like a cardinal sin to have more than one child per room. It’s weird to me, especially if you intend to guide your kid towards college. Learning to live with someone for the first time at 17/18 must be hard.

          1. I started college 20 years ago and I think everyone on my hall had their own room at home. We dealt with it. I wouldn’t call it weird.

          2. I went on a family vacation to the Virgin Islands when I was in college, mid-aughts; my grandparents paid for themselves, their children, and the grandchildren to go. Someone asked me if I was mad that I had to share a bedroom with my sisters, because he thought was some awful, massive imposition to share a bedroom at a fancy villa. It’s like, it’s the Virgin Islands – I spent the entire day in the water, eating, and drinking cocktails, all paid for by my really generous grandparents, and you think I GAF about sharing a bedroom at the end of the day??

          3. +1 to Cat. There are many arguments to sharing rooms, but under the premise that otherwise the first year of college will be hard seems like an odd one. On the contrary, it felt maybe more fun and novel since I hadn’t before?

          4. My oldest is now a sophomore in college and had always had her own room growing up. It was a bit of a difficult adjustment to get used to sharing a dorm room with someone. She is now in an apartment with one of her friends, but they each have their own rooms and bathrooms and it is easier. The dorms were a good experience overall though!

          5. This is very regional. I know plenty of kids (even mixed-gender kids) who share a room in our urban area. My own kids (boy and girl) shared a room for their first four years or so. It was no big deal. I’m glad we could separate them later on but it was nice to have a guest room/home office for a few years.

          6. I didn’t have my own bedroom until I was a junior in college! It was heaven.

      2. I’m fascinated that kids don’t share rooms these days!! I guess this is something I haven’t asked my friends as my nieces share their room and I did growing up, figured that was still the case. Honestly, if I had kids, now that WFH is here to stay, I’d put them all in a sleeping porch kind of room and convert the extra(s) bedrooms to home offices.

        1. Did you share with a sister or brother? Sharing a room between a boy and a girl would get awkward at some point IMO, so it would depend on the cards you are dealt. Signed, someone who’s boy and girl shared a room until recently.
          (I am sure someone on here will now @ me with their boy/girl sharing until college stories).

          1. We lived in a 2br/1ba house with our daughter, then I gave birth to a son. We decided it was time to find. 3br house since the kids couldn’t share a bedroom forever. We really jumped the gun on it. We moved into a bigger house when my son was a toddler and he had his own room, but slept in his sister’s room every night, with her encouragement. At some point we just moved both beds into her room and treated his room as a playroom for a few years. I don’t think they actually exercised the option of having separate rooms full time until they were well into elementary school!

            So someday they’ll need separate rooms for sure, but not as soon as most people (including me, at the time) think!

          3. I do wonder if a modern take is a room w a bunch of bunk beds for all genders and no personal space in the room other than a closet – like a place you store your things and sleep? Just riffing but times change how we use space and seems like the new highest/best use might be home office space and not “my room/stay out”?

          4. Anon 12:28, yes, we made it into elementary school. We probably could have eked out another few years but I wouldn’t build or count on a full separate office room for those few years, personally, knowing I’d have to give it up, but others may feel differently (about it being worth it for a few years).

            Anon 12:57 I hear what you are saying, but there are so many factors. Like, if they are boy/girl do they have to take turns/come up with a schedule changing in the one room, or go into the bathroom to change day in, day out, for years? I’d be annoyed if that was me. I know they’re kids so maybe the attitude should be they have to deal, but I’d be sympathetic to that. Also, they need to do hours of homework (and currently, school!) at home as well. I’d actually rather them be in their rooms doing this so I could work separately (even with me not in an office) than all of us doing our work in the office/common areas together because their rooms are crammed with bunk beds and the bare basics and can’t fit desks.

            If a boy and girl sharing room late into the tween+ years is a financial necessity because that’s as much house as the family can afford, then yes! That makes sense, and I’m sure it can be made work. But if that not the case, I would personally not view my need for an office to outweigh a boy and girls need for their own space once middle/high school hits. I think a lot of parents would feel odd about doing that.

          5. @Anon at 11:28 and others. We’re in a 2bed/1 bath with 1 toddler. We’re considering having a second, and I’m just not sure if I can do it in this condo. The housing market is insane right now and we’re considering riding it out…. but that could be several years for prices to stabilize.
            With our first, we took turns sleeping in the baby’s room for the first 6 months to get longer blocks of sleep. With two kids, and only two bedrooms, it seems like the first year would be really hard.

        2. Maybe I am just 100% suburbanite but I really cringe at kids sharing rooms unless it’s an absolute necessity. A personal space all your own is something I value and view as important. Maybe not for those elementary years but certainly at the middle and high school years.

          1. definitely 100% suburbanite, but also a non-immigrant upper middle class point of view

        3. I have three kids in one bedroom and it has an empty bunk for #4. We have an empty bedroom that is alternatively a guest or Au Pair room and the baby has a Queen sized in her room. Works just fine for us (their nursery is gorgeous with built in bunk beds with a staircase up the middle and a “secret” hideout. They love it.

    14. At the beginning of the pandemic I did not want to accept that this was going to be a long-term thing, so me and the kids mostly worked from the kitchen table. If I needed to make a call or once they were finished with school, I would work from my bed. Around last summer, I decided that was not the best way to work and so set up 2 tables in my bedroom–one for me and one for my younger daughter. My oldest was home from college and worked in her bedroom. We set up a desk for my son in his bedroom and he works fine independently. I brought my two monitors home from work to make things easier. I hate that work is set up in my bedroom though. My oldest is going to move into an apartment soon and I am going to make her bedroom into my office. I’m excited haha. Our bosses have said we can do any combination of WFH and in-office that we want. I think eventually they will look to downsize the offices though.

    15. I think it is an expectation for some jobs in some areas, and it shouldn’t be one going forward. Workplaces should find people spaces to work instead of making people DIY. I live in a tiny 3 bedroom house with 2 kids. Prior to the pandemic, I rarely worked at home because we don’t have a dedicated space. Now I either work in my bedroom at my “makeup table” (which is more of a narrow desk) or at the big table on our porch in nice weather. Some of my coworkers are predominantly telework or full telework, but all of them 1) signed up for that and 2) have dedicated home offices.

  13. I need help letting something go that’s none of my business. We are back at the office 100%. We don’t have a work from home policy – our CEO is very adamant about that. Employees are expected to be at work. My manager will allow us to work from home on occasion if someone has a sick child, needs to be home for a home repair, but it’s only on an occasional basis. I sit with employees who work for a different manager and they get to work from home whenever they want. It’s really frustrating for me and seems unfair. I overheard one employee yesterday tell someone else that she’s on vacation Friday and Monday and then working from home on Tuesday. Wow…this sounds like she gets an extra day after her vacation to be home. She was very matter of fact about it. How do I let this go? It feels petty and if I bring it up to my manager, it’ll just sound like I’m whining. Thoughts??

    3. It is unfair and your manager sucks — mentioning it to them won’t change anything. Look for a job on another team?

    4. Don’t be that person. It’ll sound like whining because it is whining. I’m sorry your manager is awful, but please don’t try to drag everyone else down with you. Find a new job or get over it.

    5. HR? Generally policy should be the same across the board and if it’s not perhaps a discreet conversation with HR is in order.

    6. You need to stay the heck out of it and find a new job. If you destroy work from home for people who currently have it, that would be so unforgivable as a fellow employee.

      Also, you sound just like my boss who claims that working from home is like a vacation day. If I’m working 8 hours, it’s not a vacation, period. I think you need to work on your own biases and get a new job.

    7. You think you’ll sound whiny because you are whining. If you’re so adamant you should be able to WFH, why are you assuming that the other employee is just goofing off after returning from vacation? Maybe, just maybe, that employee is enjoying the ability to sleep later after getting back while still logging on at the same time? Or taking care of unpacking in the time they would have been commuting?

      Don’t ruin WFH for the other team just because you’re jealous.

    8. I’m the person with generous WFH in a company that doesn’t have a formal policy. I’m also a liberal arts major in a STEM company, making a small fraction of what the “must reports” make. If you ruined my job instead of just finding a new one for yourself…yeah, no. I would retaliate.

      Crabs in a bucket is never the way to go. Reach up for yourself instead of pushing other people down.

    9. You let it go by understanding who the actual problem is, and it’s not your coworker. Your company is being unreasonable to you, and you being unreasonable to her doesn’t make your situation any better, nor does it make you any better. All it does is justify your company’s unreasonableness.

      Don’t be that person.

    10. ” I overheard one employee yesterday tell someone else that she’s on vacation Friday and Monday and then working from home on Tuesday. Wow…this sounds like she gets an extra day after her vacation to be home”

      Or, maybe don’t jump to the conclusion that working from home on Tuesday means she’s just taking another vacation day — that she might actually work at home? Sheesh.

    11. If you think there should be broader WFH, you need to bring that up to your manager and make a business case for it (it’s fast becoming a norm, will help with recruitment/retention, productivity is the same, etc). DO NOT make it about the uneven permissions that exist currently or you will sound like a whiner. And you may not get anywhere given your CEO’s attitude, but there’s been a lot written lately about the culture shift underway on WFH.
      …and, if nothing changes, you need to decide whether it’s important enough to you to find a new job.

    12. I get that it’s unfair that some people only get to WFH when they really need it and others get to do it whenever it’s convenient, but I’d rather support the latter than try to squash it just because I can’t have it. If that level of flexibility is important, find it in a new job.

      Personally, I love working from home the day after a vacation, especially a long one; an extra hour of sleep and the ability to do laundry, maybe get some grocery shopping done during lunchtime – IN ADDITION to attending meetings and catching up on email, of course – can be pretty clutch all things considered. It’s definitely been more permissible in some jobs than in others, and I’m not one to push my luck, but I’ll do it when I can.

  14. Has anyone heard what it’s like to work in-house at Google? I don’t think I could go back to working similar hours to firm life, if that’s what it’s like. Position would not be at headquarters in CA though (and I am currently an in-house paralegal, not an attorney).

    1. Two friends work in legal (lawyers) and the hours for both vary from “totally underwater and working all hours” to “easy living” — but it could also be the nature of their particular legal work (transactional).

  15. IIRC there’s mostly lawyers here. Does anyone know what happens if I get called for jury duty during a time when I’m supposed to be deposed at work? (I work in product R&D, not law. This deposition would be a case against my company.) I know generally you can’t use work as a reason not to do jury duty, but I don’t know what to do in a situation where there are cases on both sides.

    1. Tell the attorney representing your company in the lawsuit you were summoned for a jury duty and ask how they want you to handle it.

    2. The dep likely gets rescheduled just email the attorney representing the company and let them know

    3. For jury duty, every jurisdiction has its own rules. In mine, you get to reschedule once without a reason. There is also a list of reasons. If you didn’t get info like that with your jury summons, check the court’s website or call the court clerk.

      For depositions, they are rescheduled frequently. Just tell whoever told you that you are being deposed (your boss, your company’s in-house counsel, maybe the attorney representing the company in litigation).

      1. Yeah and no way would I let a company depo count as the reason for my deferring jury duty. Just tell the lawyer and reschedule.

  16. So I failed the bar exam. Any career leads for jds in a major east coast city? Looking for a position that is at least high five figures, 9-5, no nights/weekends/overtime.

    1. Hugs. If you don’t want to try again, compliance-type positions are often JD-preferred.

      1. Second this, every big multinational company has a compliance department. They would be delighted to have someone with legal knowledge and willing to understand the company/wider business. I work in marketing and get lots of interactions with compliance. In my company, it is a 9-5 job (maybe less, with occasional internal audits) and you get to learn a lot about business. Give it a try while retaking exam.

    2. I’m not on the east coast so no leads. But I know many people successfully practicing law who failed the bar on their first attempt. Good luck to you.

    3. I’d look at insurance carriers and financial institutions in regulatory and compliance roles but generally entry level + high pay doesn’t equal strict 9-5

    4. You should retake the exam. Plenty of people fail the first time just figure out what went wrong and course correct.

      1. Thank you. I do believe I will retake, in the mean time, I sadly do have to work.

    5. Let me say this as gently as possible: there are not really jobs out there for newly minted JDs that do not require a law license, pay high five figures, and do not require overtime or nights and weekends. Compliance or contract management gets you close, but you’ll be expected to answer emails and, during busy times, work longer hours.

      1. Thank you for your honesty. I am just trying to get a sense of what my options are careerwise until I pass the bar, whenever that may be. Not really in the position to take off from work to study full time. Looking for something with a decent salary that will offer some semblance of work life balance. Any additional leads are appreciated

        1. “Some semblance of work life balance” is not the same thing as exclusively 9-5. Your employer will understand that you will need to study for the bar; however, you’re in for a rough run through the end of July.

          Find legal staffing agencies, find JD preferred jobs, include a search for “remote,” throw your resume out there, and get to bar studying. What is your undergraduate degree in?

        2. If you need a job now, perhaps look at contract work or even temp companies. You may appreciate the exposure to the work world and the flexibility while studying to retake the Bar exam.

          I’ve met people with JDs and not practicing in finance, especially compliance as others have said. Another was an officer in affordable housing, where we had 2″ thick deal contracts, 25 lawyer conference calls and onerous state and federal regulations. But that wouldn’t be entry level, unless you have prior work experience before law school. For something similar, you could try non-profits or NGO or similar.

          If you worked before law school, try something in the same field or adjacent in something like contract review (for manufacturers, RE companies) or compliance.

          Good luck with the job search and the Bar retake.

      2. Second this. Honestly, there aren’t many entry level jobs for people with law licenses that are high five figures and strictly 9-5. There’s a disconnect.

      3. Our entry-level contracts team members are paid in the mid 5-figures, don’t need to have passed the bar, and work 40 hours a week and absolutely are not expected to answer emails/take calls late or over the weekend. In fact, I actively tell them not to. We are LCOL, so not a major east coast city, but we also offer remote work, so the lower salary wouldn’t have the same impact if you could work out of city limits.

    6. I don’t know how much it would pay. But I do know law firms hire people in their conflicts department who are either licensed or JD-preferred. I don’t think that job is nights/weekends/overtime.

    7. Check out claims positions at insurance companies. Lots of the more complex claims prefer candidates with JD’s. Very comfortable work/life balance and interesting work. Good luck – this is just a little bump in the road.

    8. I had a friend who tried to work full-time while studying for the bar. It was not successful either time.

    9. Consider document review contract attorney positions – tends to be a high hourly rate and hours are contained (though talk to the staffing agency because in some contract attorney roles you are expected to do overtime on demand). Good luck. A friend of mine graduated with high grades from a tippety top law school and failed the bar on first try. They have had a great career since the next try when they passed — you’re not alone in this experience..

    10. Michelle Obama, Kamala Harris, and Hillary Clinton all failed the bar, so you’re in good company! Good luck to you!

    11. Federal Probation, on the pre-sentencing side gives preference to JDs. They work very reasonable hours and the pay goes up quickly. My husband has been there 6 years and is approaching 6 figures. You occasionally have to work nights or weekends but you can then take time off during the day to flex it.

    12. State judicial law clerk positions do not always require a bar license. The state court system in my county offers both bar member and non-bar member positions (slightly different payscale, otherwise it’s the same job). Should meet your requirements for 9-5, although pay varies greatly by state and county.

  17. Vain question. I use the touch up filter on Zoom and it works well; is there something similar for Microsoft Teams? I can’t find it!!

      1. You can’t hide your own video on Teams either which I hate. I’m so tired of my own faaaace

        1. Sticky notes are your friend here — I cover up my face all the time!

    2. No, Teams is hot trash. So grumpy that we quit Skype in favor of this inferior product.

      1. Completely agree. Teams is soooo glitchy and terrible. The audio and video basically crash if we have more than 2 people on a call.

      2. Teams IS trash, I have no idea why people insist on using it. Zoom is my favorite by far.

      3. Thank you. I hate Teams with the fire of a thousand suns. I wish we would go back to zoom.

  18. I am looking for a leather (vegan leather is fine) backpack with a laptop pocket to carry for work. I am a lawyer and mid thirties, so want something that isn’t too young looking and that I would be ok bringing along with me most days and not just on my casual days. I looked at the cuyana bag and swooned, but no pocket for the laptop. Does anyone have anything they like?

    1. Check Knomo, they have full-leather and mix version of backpacks. I bought the fabric/leather in black and am very happy with it.

    2. You could try Tumi. I remember an old supervisor had a leather Tumi backpack that I thought was really elegant looking for a backpack. Can’t recall exactly which one it was, but found a couple on their website:
      https://www.tumi.com/p/lisette-backpack-01357791596/
      https://www.tumi.com/p/gemma-backpack-01357781041/
      https://www.tumi.com/p/minori-backpack-01304631041/ ( I think this last one doesnt have a padded section but fits a laptop. If you have a slim padded case, it might work.)

  19. What is a realistic percentage of your income to spend on housing (mortgage, taxes, insurance, utilities) in a HCOL city? I’m single and hoping to buy a house in the DC area. I’m having a hard time figuring out what the responsible split is for housing v. retirement v. general savings v. spending in my situation. The general rules of thumb I’m seeing online seem unrealistic for a HCOL city where even if you rent, your housings costs are a huge part of your salary, but I also don’t want to over extend myself.

    1. I am to spend as little on housing as possible and I live in the Bay Area. I think it is possible to get good deals but you will have to give something up. We spend 11% of our pretax income on rent and it has allowed us to save so if we ever do want to buy, we’ll be in a better position to do so. The catch is that we had long commutes pre-COVID and our place has a distinct “first apartment” vibe that we have just had to accept. I would say definitely do not go higher than 25% of your income if you want to be medium conservative and protect your ability to afford the rest of your life.

      1. That is amazing in he Bay Area. For contrast, most people I know here spend 50% on housing.

    2. I think you have to think about your priorities. You don’t want to be house poor or at risk of foreclosure if something goes wrong, but if you have a decent salary and job stability, sufficient savings to cover emergencies, are saving at least 20% of your income, and would rather spend the rest of your money on a house than on travel, cars, or other stuff, I think it’s reasonable to spend more than the traditional 30% of your income.

    3. I don’t follow the recommended percentage suggestions, but instead just figure out what dollar amount you can dedicate to housing and go from there. So (take home pay) – (retirement savings) – (general savings) – (general spending) – (all other expenses) = (x). Do you want to dedicate all of (x) to housing? If so, that’s the total you have to work with.

      If we had followed them, the percentage recommendations would have had us eating ramen and living paycheck to paycheck.

      1. I am in a MCOL city and poor people here routinely have to spend >50% of their income on housing. So in no way do that, even in a HCOL city. I think anything > 25% will make you feel pinched. Also, mentally think: if I had to, could I get a roommate to share expenses? Could I get a roommate now? There is no shame in this and it doesn’t have to be forever, but is one of the way my lower-income people were able to survive the first several years of owning a place vs renting.

      2. This exactly. I’m really cynical: the real estate industry tells you that 30% of your take-home pay goes to your mortgage; the college industry expects you to save $500/month per kid starting from the time they are newborns; some daycares aim to charge one cent below the wife’s salary; auto dealers give out 6 or 7 year loans for a quarter of people’s incomes. Any industry will happily take up as much of your money as it thinks it can get.

          2. While some people are eligible for credits for daycare (government subsidies), I’ve noticed that what daycares cost for two kids tends to closely approximate the salary of the lower-earning spouse. It varies heavily by region.

            I used to live in an area wherein the average college-educated woman earns $1,000 per week; daycares usually charged $100 per day, or $500 per week, or, drumroll, $1,000 per week for two kids. Now, I live in an area wherein a college educated woman earns about half that, and guess what? Average daycare cost for two kids is a very close approximation.

          3. I can guarantee you no daycare is using this method to come up with their pricing.

          4. I can guarantee you that they are, even if they don’t know it. It is what the market will bear. By the time you go to three kids, parents get a nanny or one parent stays home. One or two kids, though, the daycare cost has to be less than or approximately what one parent earns in the workforce. Charge too much and no one enrolls their kid.

            Markets are very good st delivering information that you are not even aware of.

      3. Just a quick back-of-the-envelope math exercise: I spend ~14% of our total household take-home pay on our mortgage (which includes taxes and homeowners insurance). That excludes all utilities, and we don’t have an HOA.

        When we were house shopping, we were approved for three times that amount. We have now been in our house for 15 years. The payment is currently very comfortable for us, but even today there is no way I would want to tie up that full approved amount on our mortgage payment. Had we followed that advice 15 years ago and maxed out what we were approved for, we would have lost the house very early on.

    4. I’m single and recently bought in DC. My housing expenses are about 25% of my take home salary (i.e., gross pay minus all taxes, insurance, and maximum 401k contribution).

    5. Single, no children, live in Manhattan (not a fancy part), share with a roommate. Spend about 55% of my take-home pay (so after taxes, insurance, and near-max 401K contribution) on my housing costs (rent, utilities, monthly cleaning service). To be honest, it’s a bit tight to pay and still meet my personal savings goals. I’d be much more comfortable at </= 45%.

    6. I’m single and purchased in DC. I put 20% down and my monthly costs are just under 40% of my take home income. As compared to most of the other comments, I’m actually totally fine with that and think I have a ton of money left over. I max out my 401k and save an additional 15% of my take home income in an investment account. I’ll admit I make a good income of $150, but that’s not that high in DC for an attorney. The percentage you are ok with probably varies based on your income, because at higher incomes you would have more left over and I find that other costs don’t vary much (at least among my friends).

      I think it really depends on your priorities. I still take a nice vacation each year, which is normally international, but I don’t care about staying in 5 star hotels. I go out to eat with friends 3-4 times a week, at least pre-covid, but I’m not really a drinker so that saves me like $15 per meal since I don’t order a drink. I also just don’t purchase that much stuff because I have no interest in it. For example, I basically only read library books cause I don’t need more books in my house and don’t mind waiting to read a specific book.

      1. + 1. Most of the people saying they spend less than 20% sound like they are couples. If you want to purchase property as a single women in a HCOL area, you will likely need to pay more than 30% of your take home pay. I would start by looking at what you spend now, and figure out a budget you would be comfortable with, and then figure out what that amount would allow you to purchase.

        1. I am the 14% person from above and while I have a spouse, we have a single income and a teenager. High five figures, MCOL area.

    7. I’m in your shoes (single! DC! Recent homebuyer!) and I’m spending 25% of my monthly take home on mortgage, utilities, home owners insurance, and property taxes.

      1. Same here. Single, DC. Have owned my home for almost 3 years. I spend 25% of my monthly take home pay on my mortgage, home insurance, and property taxes.

  20. Hi All. Hoping to start a thread on longterm non-retirement savings. DH and I max out our 401ks, have a 6+ month emergency fund, and put an adequate amount in our only child’s 529. We’re now at a point where we should and can look at longterm non-retirement savings. We want to build wealth that we can access without penalty. In addition, we are in our mid-30s and have goals that will kick in before 55 (example: vacation home, replace cars in 5-10 years, etc.). The answer is a non-qualified investment account, right? I am not super interested in picking out individual investments and would put it all in mutual funds. What do others do?

    1. For this type of investing, my husband just puts everything in vanguard mutual finds. I use betterment (a robo-investor), which I like because you can break our your investments into different groups that have different timelines/investing approaches (for example, if buying the vacation home is 20 years away and buying a car is 10 years away, they’ll allocate different buckets appropriately based on that timeline).

      1. Same! Once we’ve done the easy options, and still have money leftover, then it’s time to talk to a professional who has training and experience on the harder questions.

    3. Are you maxing out your Roth IRAs or backdoor Roth IRAs as well? I would do that first.

    4. I use Vanguard for everything, including all my IRAs (which you don’t mention, do you have one?). I like basic broad index funds like VTSAX, VFIAX, and VEMAX.

      I have been thinking about adding a Fidelity account for my “play money” in penny stocks. They’ve shown themselves to be the best-behaved over the past five months of stock nonsense, and Vanguard’s trading interface is very outdated.

    5. We keep a healthy amount in our saving account (more like a 12 month emergency fund) and after that it’s all VTSAX.

    6. Bogleheads 3-fund lazy portfolio approach for us (google bogleheads 3 fund and their explanation should be the first hit). We have Vanguard index funds, mostly VTIAX, VTSAX, and VBTLX. Husband and I are both firm lawyers and the hoops to jump through with our firms to make sure we can buy individual stocks is too much of a hassle to bother with anyway, so mutual funds work.

    7. Yep. I like to keep things straightforward. We do the boglehead three fund portfolio method. It’s a vanguard bond fund, a vanguard stock fund, and a vanguard international stock fund. The percentages of how we allocate our money between the three funds is based on our age. We also keep probably more cash in checking and savings than we “should.”

      * gets out soapbox * And, because I wouldn’t be me without saying this, please for the love of all that is good, if you get a financial advisor who is trying to sell you a new, trendy investment, consult your accountant too. If you are going to get into anything like partnership investments, publicly traded partnerships, cryptocurrency, other passive income like rentals, etc. there can be tax consequences. I’ve had situations where people get into things they don’t understand and any financial gain from the investment is eaten up by the tax prep fees due to complicated and expensive specialized or multi-state tax filings. I’m not saying these types of investments are never a good idea, but go into them with your eyes open.

      1. Thank you for the PSA, I have climbed onto that soapbox many a time. Can’t agree with you more!

  21. Considering a role in a federal agency, and it seems two weeks vacation is standard for new employees, but gets more generous in time. Anyone know if vacation is negotiable? I have no prior military, law enforcement or Federal Government experience to transfer or build vacation on. Thanks!

    2. You can try to negotiate it but it depends on the agency; my financial regulator doesn’t budge on that. I believe at 4 years it goes to 4 weeks, so yeah the first few years at the government involve a lot of planning to save up vacation time. That being said though, I didn’t think it was that hard — I literally just didn’t take a real 5 days off in a row vacation for the first year and that was enough to get the accrual of time rolling. That first year I just used days here and there for holidays and made a 4 day weekend or two and that was it. I guess that’s harder if you’ve never had a year where you haven’t flown to Europe or whatever but I didn’t think it was a big deal. Then after that even getting only 2 weeks of time for the next 3 yrs, you have some saved up so you get less stingy in using it and start taking regular vacations etc.

    3. You can try but it will depend on your agency’s policies. Is it a lockstep GS agency or an independent one? You may have more ability to negotiate at an independent one. Also ask how vacation is funded – at my last agency it was earned each pay period, which meant I didn’t actually have 2 weeks until I’d been there a whole year. That makes planning leave extremely stressful early on. My current agency gives you the year’s allotment at the beginning of the year (and charges you back if you leave before the year is up with zero leave left).

    4. I’m a federal employee. The rules are that employees 0-3 years get 4 hours annual leave per pay period, 4-9 years get 6 hours per pay period, and 10+ get 8 hours per pay period. In terms of what agencies are willing to negotiate, it seems to vary some by agency. OPM’s regs might provide helpful guidance for you to look at, but I’ve found that some agencies have their own policies/tendencies that don’t follow OPM or that the HR person you’re dealing with is particularly inflexible. I tried to negotiate for a higher leave rate and wasn’t successful (but did luckily negotiate a higher salary). I’ve talked to others though who have said their agencies would meet a similar request for a higher leave rate in some circumstances.

    5. I negotiated more, but I had to write a memo explaining why I deserved it (I can’t remember what the justification was — likely years of experience in my field?).

    7. If the agency determines your vacation accrual based on how long you’ve worked there (mine does), you may be able to negotiate credit for your past work experience instead of starting at zero. It would result in HR having a separate “start date” in their system for accrual of vacation, which might be easier to get than a wholesale exception to the vacation policy.

      1. I like this approach! Thank you all so much. Thanks to you, if it happens I’ll sound more knowledgeable in the ask…and prepared with justification. It’s part of a lockstep agency (like an agency within an agency, like DLA under the DOD…but not). I believe they accrue per pay period. As usual I’m so impressed with the people on this board. Thank you again!

  22. I’m a government employee with a job I generally like but the fact that my income will only ever increase by a few thousand dollars per year for the rest of my career (assuming I stay in government) is starting to stress me out. I make enough to live comfortably now, but not enough to be able to save a significant amount of money to eventually afford a house, make improvements to a house, go on bigger vacations, etc. I started my career at a law firm and I will never make as much in my current job as I did as a first year associate. I guess I’m just wondering if anyone else has had similar thoughts and how they dealt with it.

    1. I know several attorneys who have done stints at law firms for money (as counsel or income partner), and then went right back to government work when they felt they had enough.

    2. I was in your shoes a few years ago and for the reasons you listed, ultimately decided to leave (after 10+ years across various government roles). I had maxed out my salary in a HCOL area and knew that future increases would be minimal at best. I decide to go ta small firm where I now make more than 100K more and don’t work much harder. I’m even looking at going in house. Highly recommend networking with former colleagues and classmates to get a sense of good positions for you and your skill set. Good luck!

    3. I think you need a reality check. You make a government lawyer salary. You are living comfortably already and have a guarantee that your pay will go up several thousands every year. Not that you can’t get paid more somewhere else, but you’ve been there and know the tradeoffs. I propose that you look up in an income calculator whether you are in the top 10, 5, or 1% as it is. Then evaluate how your life would be changed if you go back to the private sector, not just pay wise but overall. It’s your choice.

      1. +1

        And wont you have a pension as well? That complements retirement savings deficits. The job security value should never be underestimated.

        Remember, most millionaires next door make less than you.

        But if you truly want a different lifestyle, then you need to leave. And like me, you’ll probably regret you didn’t stay.

      2. I would say this is reasonable if she already owned a house. But if home ownership is a big deal to her (as it was to me and many others), then it sounds like lifelong government work is not going to get her there.

        1. This is all a lot of speculation of course, since we don’t know the OP’s specific circumstances, such as student loans, kids, other obligations. But if she can expect ‘several thousand’ increase annually (seeing how the usual increase is a few percent), that means that her salary is in the 100k neighborhood. There will be things in life that will be a bit of a financial stretch, but it’s perfectly ok to not have a big vacation in the same year that you have a spendy home improvement. Having to budget for certain things is not a hardship in my opinion. It’s a good instinct to notice that she’s feeling deprived and that she is working on these thought patterns.

    4. I feel you. I work in local government, am way underpaid and am considering leaving because of my terrible salary and benefits. .

  23. My tween wants to take my clothes. For a second I patted myself on the back. My mom was in her 20s when she had me and I never wanted her clothes (even though she dressed like Keri Russell’s character on The Americans — children are fools). Then I realized: it’s just the athleisure (and I have a strong dress game that is n/a right now). Not so impressive now.

    1. My daughter has joined the working world and had to admit that she now dresses like her mother – lol!

    2. I can remember shopping with my mom in Loft when I was a teen and finding all the clothes so BORING. Like I literally yawned and found somewhere to sit whenever we went in there. As an adult, at least 50% of my wardrobe is from Loft. Did I change, or has the store changed since the early 2000s?

        1. Probably, but mostly just keeping with trends. I mean, this was the early 2000s, teen style was weird and trended toward very wide leg and low rise pants, velour turtleneck sweaters, and plaid skirts with knee high socks worn with Doc Martens. I don’t know if Loft would have carried that kind of stuff. Nowadays, they have plenty of dresses and tops and such that are “in style” for teens today, so I don’t know whether it’s because they just had a lot more formal-ish workwear back then (which would not have been applicable to me and would definitely have been boring), or whether they did have lots of trendy things that teens would have worn and I was just out of style because I shopped at Macy’s instead of Pac Sun?

      2. Haha I think you might have changed, but probably age-appropriately so. I’m in my 30s and still wouldn’t wear Loft but maybe I would after I’ve had kids if my body changes a lot. They do seem to be trying to reflect current trends but I prefer a more tailored/formal clothes for work and their stuff is more modest than what I wear in my free time. I have some dresses in similar-ish styles from Reformation, but the Ref ones are more tailored to my figure and slightly lower necklines/shorter hems.

  25. Curious about simple design changes that have improved your life.

    I’ll start: jogger-style pajama pants. I’m short, so the gathering around the ankle means they don’t drag on the floor. It also means they don’t get all twisted and ride up to my knees when I’m tossing and turning in bed. They stay where they’re supposed to be.

      1. The “top or bottom” labels on the Target sheets that everybody love make making the bed so much easier. Why don’t all fitted sheets have these?!

        1. This was a pleasant surprise when I bought some sheets at Target last year! A bit unnecessary for that particular set because they are striped, but the concept should be repeated by other brands.

    2. I have chalk markers and use them to write a date on everything that I put in the fridge. Makes cleaning it out so much easier.

    3. Getting crewneck everything out of my life in favor of v-necks. I got tired of feeling strangled, tired of ruining my curls getting dressed/undressed, and tired of them stretching out and looking worn so quickly.

    4. Stocking decaf in addition to coffee. I like coffee, but if I give in to the craving too much, my sleep suffers and it’s a vicious cycle. I had a weird coffee snob hangup about decaf but I’m over it now. I can drink as much delicious coffee as I like and still sleep well.

      1. I think you just made my day. I don’t know how I didn’t think of this before. Truly.

    5. Waffle weave towels that dry much faster (no mildew) and that are also more effective at drying off your skin. Euro-style bedding with two twin duvets and mattresses for a king-size bed so we’re not tugging on the same one all night and there is less motion transfer.

  26. Thoughts on a career issue — started my career as a commercial litigator in NYC at one of the big firms so all of my work experience was financial services based as the clients were banks, hedge funds etc. Stayed there for nearly 10 years. Then moved to one of the financial regulators in DC and have been there for about 5 years. There are a handful of industries that interest me outside of financial services — one is oil and gas. Of course I have no experience in that space. Recently though applied for and got an interview in that area in house (because they’re looking for a generalist and assume you can learn the oil and gas; and also because there aren’t tons of oil and gas lawyers walking around DC nor do people necessarily want to move from LCOL places like Texas).

    Would you consider this given — this is just an interest but I don’t necessarily see staying at this place forever. I see it more like a 4-5 year job and a way to get out of my current job. But then I keep thinking — then what? It’s not like I could go in house at a different oil/gas place because those don’t exist in DC. Nor could I move to Texas or Oklahoma where those jobs do exist — family reasons. So then would I go back to a financial services type of law having to explain this detour? Would you NOT pursue it for that reason?

    TBH the reason I pursued financial services type of work is because I grew up in the NYC area — Wall Street was/is the biggest industry in town so I wanted to be associated with it somehow and for the last 15 years I have been. Yet it’s gotten old/boring like all things do and I really want out of my current job. Yet I know myself and my strong points — I’m NOT someone who easily networks their way into new jobs. I’m someone who applies to 200 jobs and is lucky to get 1 offer. So I know I won’t be someone who 4 years from now when I say ok enough oil/gas but I can’t make this my career, I know I won’t be able to meet with a bunch of guys I know at the financial regulators or smaller firms, shake some hands and have someone say — oh here’s a talented person, let’s create a spot for her (I know guys for whom this happens on the regular). Thoughts?

    1. I think you need to stop worrying about what might or might not happen in 5 years

      1. YMMV but I think OP is right to think about what makes sense for her resume long term. A job that pins you into an industry where you have no other alternatives in your region is something you need to think about simply because what if you go into that job and realize it isn’t at all what they promised or what you wanted and you want to leave? Is it easy to move back to the old industry or will they always look at you like the flake who picked up and tried some random thing? East coast lawyers tend to be judgmental like that and they can get away with it because there are so many people around with the “right” law schools, law firms etc. that if they feel any doubt about you, they move on in two seconds.

    2. so I’m from the DC area and actually now live in TX for DH’s job. While oil & gas will always exist in some form, it is definitely a shrinking industry. Is this some kind of regulatory role since it’s in DC? DH used to work in oil and gas and started to feel really guilty working for an industry destroying the environment, though recognizes that as a society we need some oil & gas, but just couldn’t do it anymore on an individual level. I don’t know if you think this will bother you but just something to think about

      1. Definitely a shrinking industry. When I started my career, I was at a firm with a very busy O & G practice, with many attorneys doing that work fulltime at a breakneck pace. Now all those attorneys are doing work for other types of clients. I would not pivot to that industry at this point.

    3. I’m not a lawyer, but I do work in tech for the O&G industry. I cannot emphasize enough how toxic, misogynistic, and right wing (in the crazy way) O&G is. I assume women in law are used to a lot of that, but even as someone jaded by tech I was dismayed by it.

      1. Yes to this. I started my career in oil and gas litigation at a firm and it’s a lot.

      2. OP here — really; I guess that’s not shocking but I didn’t think about it. Can you and the poster at 10:57 say more? Certainly financial services/banking is male dominated esp as you get more and more senior, you are often the only woman in the room with a bunch of bankers. But it’s certainly not right wing (likely due to location too) and while some situations can be toxic, I don’t think it generally is. Any examples of things you’ve experienced that you knew where out of line?

        1. Mine had a lot of male associates getting invited to client events/introduced to clients early on so they could be buddy buddy and be hanging with them at the Ranger games for years so then when partnership time rolled around — oh of course we must promote him, look how strong his relationships are with our clients. Males being promoted or being hired as lateral counsel or partners because “he has a family to support.” Females not be promoted as easily or at all and being the first ones stealth laid off because they weren’t team players (meantime they didn’t even know you were taking clients to the game, because you never told them or invited them) and/or “oh it’s NBD her husband is a dr so it doesn’t matter if she makes money.” Also thinking something was wrong with females who were single or childless or god forbid LGBT. Look I assume this type of thinking happens everywhere including in finance but I think all except the most dinosaur guys in finance know to keep it to themselves, in O&G I found it to be VERY open and very much the reason decisions were made re promotions, terminations etc.

        2. I could go on for pages, but some highlights:

          My LinkedIn feed is a festival of Trump fellating. People are openly worshipful of him and have no shame that it will affect their employability–because in O&G, it won’t. (You can imagine the wild dichotomy of my feed, since I’m in tech…half my contacts have preferred pronouns, and the rest are posting about “illegals”.)

          Many times during a catered lunch meeting someone has made a joke along the lines of “Why did we pay for this, Anon should be in the kitchen making us sandwiches.” This is hilarious to all of them, going to HR would get me nowhere.

          Open and vulgar sexual harassment. Shrodinger’s dou***bag: if you’re offended, he was kidding. If you’re not offended, he’s requesting a bl**job. I have been asked in front of several colleagues whether I like X or Y se* act (think categories on those sort of websites). Even the “nice guys” just turn red and look away, none of them are allies.

        3. I have a long reply that’s justifiably in mod, because of all the icky stuff I had to use asterisks for. Look for it later.

    4. I wouldn’t go into oil and gas because I think the industry is on the way out, even more than it realizes. Why not try solar or wind instead?

      1. +1 and +1 to every other comment – did your live in an industry town, stay in that industry. Don’t go to a shrinking one, and don’t go to a less progressive industry either. You could probably swing a stint at non-financial services, but into tech or something that has modern employment practices so you’re at least marketable on culture. Finally, you may not now be someone with a network but focus on changing that in the next few years. That’s not something static and it is the way people get jobs.

        1. +1. I understand getting bored with financial services but don’t pivot into a shrinking industry that doesn’t really exist in your area anyway just because you want out. It’s not like you HAVE to leave your job, you WANT to leave — so you can take your time on a transition. Non financial services options include things like tech or healthcare which exist everywhere (though healthcare tends to be pretty specific re experience they look for but you never know) and are growing industries with a modern culture. Also if you are generally ok with business but maybe just bored of straight finance/banking type of litigation/law, you could consider professional services/consulting as all of those companies have in house counsel too; it’s a change but not THAT big of a pivot and again there’s a ton of consulting firms located in every metro area and often they can be pretty flexible allowing you to sit in any place they have an office (which almost always gives you a DC option) rather than moving to NYC and frankly post pandemic that flexibility likely grows.

  27. When I’m practicing good habits it’s super easy for me to continue. However, once they slip it’s so hard for me get them back. The inertia is so real for me. In addition to inertia, it’s kind of all or nothing for me. Either I’m working out, eating well, have a clean house, reading, etc or I’m not.

    After a very busy work period where I let everything slip (literally all I did was work, sleep a little, and on a rare day off I’d see friends) I’m now trying to get back to where I was earlier this year. I was so much healthier and felt way better and can’t wait to get back to it, but going 0 to 60 feels overwhelming. Work is way calmer than it was (but still not as calm as it normally is), so it feels like a good time to jump back into things. How do I ease back into being a productive person again.

    1. I am also like this, and I use an app called Habit, that is essentially just a nice digital interface for the gold stars on a chore chart system. I track a few habits that are pretty easy wins – like taking my vitamin or drinking water – which helps me feel a little better about less productive days, and helps ease me overcome the inertia of trying to get back into better habits. Opening the app every day to track those small wins keeps me more accountable and motivated on bigger items, like working out and reading books. I don’t like seeing too many days with empty circles on those more important goals!

    2. Pick one thing that helps you feel the best, and just work on that to start. Add on another thing after your habits in the first area are well-established. Repeat.

    3. I am like this too!
      I’ve found tracking my habits helpful. I have a grid in my planner with the habits I want to maintain down one side and days of the week along the other. Things get checked off if I do it. It helps me also because then I can get a bigger view- like maybe I didn’t exercise every day, but I exercised three days, and that’s ok. Or if there is one category that didn’t get any checks that week, I make sure to plan intentionally to do it the following week. Having the data for how I’m spending my time is a huge motivator for me.

    4. Just don’t beat yourself up too much, because I think what you described is a pretty basic part of being human.

    5. I am the same way. It’s either all or nothing. For me, the key is sleep. If I am sleeping well, then I get up on time and work out, which kicks off a cascade of good habits that lasts all day. If I’m not sleeping enough or am having weird pandemic dreams, it all goes out the window.

  28. I have a weird wave pattern in my below-shoulder-length hair. It’s fundamentally straight but not completely – definitely some mild underlying frizz that comes along with it. I’ve lost a lot of hair in the last few years (child birth, fertility hormones, etc.) so lots of new growth and annoying flyaway hairs, too.

    Over the last year I went from blowdrying/straightening daily, which is how I historically tamed it, to airdrying 90% of the time. I’ll definitely return to using the heat tools when I return to the office full time, but for the time being I’m in search of a product I can apply that will help tame the frizz and some of the flyaway baby hairs but not make my hair hard, so no super stiff sprays or mousses. Does such a thing exist at Target or the drug store? Happy to order from Ulta or otherwise, too. TIA.

    2. I use the drugstore Frizz Ease and it works well for me, downside is it only works on wet hair so I’m following your comment to see if I can find something similar I can use on days I haven’t washed it.

  29. Talk to me about financial advisors, because I know we’ll need one eventually, but I’m not sure if we should do it soon. After years of paying down debt and building up savings, DH and I have no debt, maxed out retirement savings, and an easily accessible six months’ emergency fund. We rent, and would love to buy a place, so have started saving for the down payment.

    All of this is manageable without outside advice, but the complicating factor is that, at some point in the next 10 years, we will receive a low 7-figure inheritance. DH is *terrible* with money, because he grew up with none. He has gotten much better with it over time, and is mostly responsible, but this will be a massive change for both of us. We talk about it a bit, but money talk makes him anxious, and he often defaults to saying, “it’s really your money, so I shouldn’t have a say in anything.” I think a third party could help, but I’m not sure if it’s premature. I am fully aware that I have a huge amount of privilege, and I’m not complaining about it. I’d love any advice you all can share.

    1. I actually think you might benefit from a good marriage therapist or some other kind of relationship counseling more than a financial advisor. I’ve never been to one nor do I have suggestions of how to find one, but I think it would be really helpful to talk through your money anxieties and priorities together. You might also be able to find a good book on this that offers discussion questions for you to work through together. I’m generally of the opinion that most people don’t need financial advisors and even with an inheritance (which you should never count on until you actually receive it), I’m not sure you do either, because most of it will come down to figuring out where you want to live and how much to spend on that, coming up with a plan for charitable giving, etc. You don’t have to have a fancy investment plan beyond the basic bogleheads 3 fund portfolio.

    2. We have a financial advisor and love working with her. She helped us look at our budget and find more money to save, so we ended up with a down payment fund in only a couple years.
      She tracks where we are for retirement goals, savings, helped us set up life insurance and disability insurance. Basically, takes care of all of our financial needs without me having to think or worry about it.

    3. There is no harm in seeing an advisor. I’d go with a fee based advisor personally.

      With a large inheritance I’d also sit down and think about what your goals are with that money? You want to buy a home so that is a good start. What impact do you want this money to have on your life and what impacts do you want to avoid?

      1. Thank you, this is the kind of discussion I think might be more productive with a third party, which is why I was thinking of a financial advisor now/soon. My husband’s money anxiety is less likely to kick in when in the presence of someone else, especially a professional who exudes calm on the subject. (Not saying I’m not calm about it, but that my demeanor doesn’t have the same impact on DH’s anxiety.)

        Anon@11:56, I agree that no one can count on an inheritance, and we are fine without it. But my father is 76, and has gone over his will and financials with my siblings and me fairly recently. My preference would be to have him forever, and never deal with his estate. But I know it will happen at some point.

    4. If you are better with money and the inheritance is from your family, AND your husband is encouraging you to handle it, please handle this yourself. Do not create trouble by asking your DH to get invested in managing this money. It really sounds like he knows he isn’t great with money, knows it stresses him to hell, and knows you are good with it. From his perspective, you handling the money is a win all around.

      I not trying to berate you; it sounds like you are very much a believer in your money being family money. That’s great! But there are times when trying too hard to help causes problems. Take a step back and ask what the long term consequences are of you managing and investing this money.

    5. Technically speaking (as a T&E lawyer), the inheritance actually is “your” money, as gifts/inheritances are the separate property of the spouse who receives them. Practically speaking (as a fellow married person), it does make a lot of sense to get on the same page as your spouse with respect to this money and your future financial plans in general.

      My recommendation would be to wait until you have the inheritance in hand before you make any concrete plans for it. Things change, people live longer than expected, etc. For now, I would put your money in an index fund, and then talk to the financial advisor after the person who you will be inheriting from dies (it takes a while between date of death and actual pay outs, FWIW).

  30. What do you do for island vacation prep (logistically, beauty/grooming, etc.)? I’m going on my first real vacation (this is ridiculous based on my age but it is what it is) and would like to make a checklist/budget for some of these things. Example: should I get lash extensions/tinting so that I don’t use mascara and look great in pics?

    FTR, my friends and I will all be 100% vaxxed. The place we’re going is not super crowded and we’re staying in AirBnBs to avoid hotel crowds. And it’s not until late summer.

    1. I like mani, pedi, and eyebrows before a beach vacation. Manage your body hair in your preferred manner. I know nothing about lash extensions or mascara, so no advice there.

    2. Get a functional swimsuit so you can swim, jet ski, snorkel, and do whatever else is available in the area comfortably. Get a great sunscreen and good cover-ups (including a large hat) to protect your skin. Consider a leave-in conditioner product if you’ll be swimming a lot and frying your hair.

    3. I love lash tinting. I wear contacts and am creeped out by extensions, but lash tinting is super cheap (like $20) and lasts for about a month on me. It makes me look just a bit more together.

    4. Bikini wax, pedicure, and nothing out of the ordinary for facial hair (which I just get done on an as-needed basis, if I needed it then I would, if not, I wouldn’t do anything special).

      However, I tend to care about my appearance much less on vacation. I won’t put on make up to go to a pool/beach. And I won’t dry my insane amount of hair late in the day to go to dinner every single night after being in the pool all day. So the best it gest for me is cute messy bun with no make up during the day or a bunch sketchy, wet beach waves with make up at night.

    5. I found lash tinting a complete waste–literally looked no different. A good waterproof tube mascara will serve you just as well if not better. And I’d be hesitant to do lash extensions given length of time someone is that close in your personal space even vaccinated. If you’re a lipstick person, I highly recommend YSL Tatouage Couture. It’s expensive but it wears all day, isn’t drying and doesn’t come off unevenly. If you do a mani/pedi, either bring your own polish or choose something light colored since sand can do a real number on fading and chipping. I agree with the poster above to focus on bringing functional swimwear and I’d also splurge for a few options since no one wants to put on a damp suit the next day or later in the day after a swim. Also make sure you have some shoe options since flip flops are great when it’s sandy but not if everyone wants to go for a hike or even just a walk into town or whatnot.

    6. I can’t fathom caring about lash extensions for a vacation. I make sure I have clothes suitable to the things I will do which usually means buying a new swimsuit and a couple dresses, and I buy lots of sunscreen.

    7. Functional swimsuit that I know won’t slip in waves/water sports. Know what’s available at your rental in terms of beach chairs, beach towels, umbrellas, etc. so you can plan what to bring accordingly. If they don’t have umbrellas or towels available and it’s somewhere you have to fly to, I have several SandCloud towels that are much lighter weight than regular beach towels that I adore. Also just got a Neso beach tent for an upcoming trip that looks promising/easier to travel with than a beach umbrella.
      I take waterproof mascara, but other than that, I don’t GAF what I look like in vacation pictures, but I’m mid-30s and over it. And if you’re headed to the Caribbean, really good sunscreen and rashguards. The sun is much stronger than you think it might be (also, on the off chance you’re going to the Virgin Islands, be aware they have banned certain chemical sunscreen ingredients).

    8. I do nothing particularly special, honestly. I make sure to shave the night before the flight so that I’m ready to switch to swimwear immediately upon arrival. Maybe I get a pedi if the timing works out, but otherwise I DIY.

      I wear sunglasses for pics that I share of us at the beach. I cannot fathom bothering with special lash treatments for a vacation.

    9. I wouldn’t get anything new like lash extensions right before a vacation. I tend to schedule my regular routine maintenance (haircut, Botox) for about a week before I leave when possible, but ultimately you are going for fun, not to look good.

      I’d focus on a couple great swimsuits – at least one that prioritizes cuteness and one that’s functional. And a strong second to working out for sunscreen and coverup game before you go.

    10. Back when I took vacations (ah, vacations!) I’d get a mani/pedi and do glitter toenail polish! To me that said “beach vacation” like nothing else!! Also a few times I did a Brazilian blowout for my unmanageable curly hair and was happy I’d done it.

    11. For that kind of vacation I would get my legs waxed to avoid needing to shave. I’ve had lash extensions before and liked them, if you’ve been wanting to do it seems like a vacation is a good excuse.

  31. So the federal government hasn’t had a pension in decades. For state and local government- some do and some don’t but no one I know is naive enough to rely on it. My pension will only amount to $600/mo after age 65 (if it still exists then)…

    Job security also isn’t a guarantee. I know entire departments in my city that were eliminated this year. I think over 500 people were laid off from city government.

    As a reminder there are no extra perks in government. We BYO coffee to the office. If I work too late and need to order dinner or take an Uber home that’s out of pocket. There were no allowances for supplies for wfh (for those who got to wfh. Many of us didn’t).

    Health insurance is usually cheap, but for every private sector company that charges $$$$ for insurance, there’s one covering 100%. I get 10 vacation days a year.

    I make 60k and have as many weeks where I work 70-90 hours as I do where I work 40 hours.

    If I were you, I’d consider making the jump.

    1. Huh? I’m in federal government and I have a pension (FERS); I’m not suggesting it’s anywhere as good as the pension of 20 or 30 years ago but it’s something and vested in 5 years. If I were to quit today at year 6 in the gov’t it’d come out to something like $900/month. I’m not saying I’ll be able to live in $900/mo but if an extra nearly $1000/mo comes in from an old employer, would you turn it down?

    3. I am a state government employee and our pension is guaranteed under the Constitution’s contracts clause, as well as our state Constitution. It has been upheld by our state supreme court many times, and they cannot change the terms for those who are already in the system. Not sure why you don’t believe any government pension can be relied upon. Also, pension amounts differ greatly. Mine will be about $100K a year if I retire at age 65. It is why I have stayed in my position, when I could make so much more in private practice.

      1. This is absolutely not the case for all state governments. You are lucky.

        I’m a state government employee, on our lowest “tier” of retirement plans, which now is just a 401k. Does it piss me off that the dinosaurs who have been in my office for a million years make a ton of money and will still make way more money than me when they retire? Absolutely. I will say, my health insurance is amazing and I accrue a little more than two days of leave per pay period.

      2. Same here. I am a state government employee with a defined benefit pension plan. I can retire with full benefits after 25 years of service. I will be 50.

    4. Every fed I know gets a pension. When my husband retires by that time he should get 30% of the average of his five highest years of service. What am I missing?

      1. My dad has the really good old federal govt. pension, but there are very few people who get that any more, plus he doesn’t get Social Security because of that sweet sweet government pension. Everyone who was hired from the mid-80s on has FERS, which isn’t great but isn’t nothing.

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