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Splurge Monday’s Workwear Report: Malva Brushed-Wool and Llama Hair Skirt

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A woman wearing beige flats and a textured cream skirt

Our daily workwear reports suggest one piece of work-appropriate attire in a range of prices.

Why am I so obsessed with this fuzzy skirt with a four-figure price tag? I’m not saying this is a practical piece, but I’ve also never seen a pencil skirt that looks this cozy.

If you have a clothing budget that includes pieces from The Row and a need for businesswear that you can also take a nap in, I think I’ve found a perfect piece for you. 

The skirt is $1,550 at Net-a-Porter and comes in sizes 0-10. 

Two more affordable options are from J.Crew (bouclé, $168, lucky sizes) and Banana Republic (merino/cotton, $220, XXS-XL).

Sales of note for 4/17:

  • Nordstrom – Beauty savings event, up to 25% off – nice price on Black Honey
  • Ann Taylor – Cyber Spring! 50% off everything + free shipping
  • Boden – 25% off everything (thru Sun, then 15% off)
  • Brooklinen – 25% off sitewide — we have and love these sateen sheets
  • Evereve – 1000+ items on sale, including lots from Alex Mill, Michael Stars, Sanctuary, Rails, Xirena, and Z-Supply
  • Express – $29 dresses
  • J.Crew – 30% off all dresses
  • J.Crew Factory – Up to 60% off everything, and extra 50% off clearance
  • Lands' End – 50% off full price styles and 60% off all clearance and sale – lots of ponte dresses come down under $25, and this packable raincoat in gingham is too cute
  • Loft – Friends & Family event, 50% off entire purchase + free shipping
  • Macy's – 25% off already reduced prices + 15% off beauty & fragrance
  • M.M.LaFleur – Spring Sale Event – Buy More, save more! 10% off $250+, 15% off $500+, 20% off $750+, 25% off $1000+ (Try code CORPORETTE15 for 15% off if you find any exclusions.)
  • Sephora – Spring sale! 20%, 15%, or 10% off depending on your membership tier; ends 4/20. Here's everything I recommend in the sale!
  • Talbots – Spring sale! 40% off + extra 15% off all markdowns
  • TOCCIN – Use code CORPORETTE15 for 15% off!
  • Vivrelle – Looking to own less stuff but still try trends? Use code CORPORETTE for a free month, and borrow high-end designer clothes and bags!

236 Comments

  1. What are you reading or watching in the coming weeks that is holiday themed? I have a couple of books set aside for the next few weeks but could use more recommendations.

          2. Also not OP and also thank you! It’s available for free on Kindle Unlimited, for those who subscribe and are interested in this title.

      2. I love those! I also just completed my annual reading of The Hound of the Baskervilles, which I do on the first gloomy Saturday afternoon each November, with unlimited tea and English muffins.

    2. Oh man, I think I’m doing the seasonal watchlist wrong. My best friend is about to die, and I have a library request list and movie watchlist full of books and movies about death. But for anyone else in a similarly grim mood, Little Women goes on both my holiday and death watchlists, and as the friend of someone who’s also dying of breast cancer, I really loved the tv series Dying for Sex, which has a Christmas in the hospital episode.

      2. I am sorry about your friend.

        Little Women is always on my holiday watchlist, too.

      3. I’m sorry about your friend. I’m on two meal trains right now and with 4th quarter work, it’s hard to even do that but like THEY need to eat and not just when it’s convenient for me. I wish I could semi-retire or do 3/4 time sometimes to be a better human.

      4. I’m sorry about your friend. If you need another rec, Let’s Take the Long Way Home is a beautiful memoir about two friends that is primarily set while one is dying from cancer. I read it while I had cancer.

        1. Oh, thanks for this. I actually added this to my library wishlist when she first got diagnosed and then it got lost in the other 187 books on my list, but I’m ready for it now, so thanks for the reminder.

      6. I am sorry about your friend, too and don’t mean this as glib but when I need a good cry on this theme, it’s Beaches or The Summer InTurned Pretty – not holiday and maybe too close to home, but I find the close to home cathartic.

      7. I’m so sorry about your friend. Wintering was a good book for me after loss.

    3. I loved Home for Christmas (Hjem til jul) on Netflix and see another season is coming this year!

      1. Oh, I loved Home for Christmas too, and I didn’t know there was another season coming. Thanks!

    4. If you like funny/light romance books, I read In a Holidaze last year by Christina Lauren

    5. Connie Willis, Miracle and other Christmas stories! A short story anthology by a fantastic author, light reading and festive.

      1. This is my holiday re-read too! And if you like those, add “All Seated on the Ground” which isn’t in this anthology but should be.

    6. Our household seasonal watchlist includes:
      The Muppets Christmas Carol
      Lord of the Rings
      Harry Potter
      Monty Python and the Holy Grail

      1. Oh yeah! Definitely a yearly Muppets Christmas Carol watcher, also the Harry Potters, Lord of the Rings, too. Additionally I always watch Love, Actually.

    7. I bought Tolkien’s Letters from Father Christmas and plan to read them and listen to the audio with my husband and 10-year-old.

      My husband and I have a tradition of watching A Very Murray Christmas on Netflix while wrestling with the Christmas lights. It’s completely zany, but I feel like it gets better every year.

    9. I saw an ad for a netflix movie called Champagne Problems: Hard-charging American businesswoman flies to Paris to buy a champagne company before Christmas, falls in love with one of the owners. Yes, please.

    10. I like to read Kringle, a middle readers book by Tony Abbot which brings together the Santa origin, Christian, and Pagan stories in a beautiful way. Loss and the transcendence of love and dark forces conspiring to ruin childhood, all with a very happy ending. I haven’t read it in a while but it seems like a perfect time for it.

    11. I think this year is the year I’ll buy myself a DVD of White Christmas (it’s been on Netflix in past years but doesn’t show up right now). The LOTR extended edition and the Ken Burns Civil War documentary are annual holiday viewing, and I’m hoping to watch the new American Revolution documentary. Also FYI the Balanchine Nutcracker is on Amazon Prime and it’s so perfect and lovely I try and watch it every year.

    12. I just enjoyed the book “Faking Christmas” by Kerry Winfrey. It is a Hallmark Christmas movie in book form, and I am HERE for it.

    13. I like to re-read “Hogfather” by Terry Pratchett during the holidays. I also have a soft spot for cozy British chick lit by various authors. Favorites are books by Trisha Ashley (12 days of Christmas is a favorite). Jenny Colgan also does holiday chick lit well.

    14. What’s Cooking? a 2000 movie about 4 families from different cultural backgrounds that my late mother enjoyed.

  2. I’m looking for a third piece to wear over patterned blouses with black pants when I don’t need to wear a full suit. Looking for something neutral that won’t clash with blouses and isn’t so distinctive that I could wear it a few times a month. Any suggestions?

    2. A neutral colored jardigan (black, ivory, charcoal, camel, etc.). MMLF has several options.

    3. Alternatively, a relatively subdued tweed with all black or mostly black colors. I love to mix patterns and find it lends an air of confidence. At least that’s what I tell myself :)

  3. Have any lawyers here read Radical Candor? I feel like in BugLaw we are told to review all juniors but give them a “meets expectations” review. But what happens IRC is that people quiet fire people from their projects because no one gives candid feedback that might lead to growth or correct bad habits. We are too conflict-avoidant, and my firm dictates it, but it is a horrible system. I’m glad we aren’t training doctors. But has anyone managed to work in a system like mine where you need for juniors to make some changes or you can’t justify staffing them on projects? They won’t come in for feedback and once when I tried it in person (after vetting it with someone else in my department and the associates chair), she refused to think she had done anything wrong and stated arguing back and it poisoned the work atmosphere. It’s like you need to kick into getting a good junior and then keep them so busy no one else can steal them.

    1. It is actually my job as a senior supervising attorney to give feedback. I don’t need anyone to come in to do it? And I actively manage new people because it’s also my job to teach. Idk feels like you just want to anxiety spiral about this and be told yup youths these days impossible.

      1. My firm is very much into fearing that they will burn bridges at feeder schools if word gets out that we negatively reviewed a graduate (and that is who we send back for more hiring). It’s a weird world where we expect people to inuit norms and also to be so thin-skinned that they can’t emotionally take hard but honest coaching and on paper, everyone must be much above average to get hired but then no better than average once they arrive (and never below average).

    2. I haven’t read that book, though I should! But I work in a government law office and as supervisors we take our employee evaluations seriously. We train a lot of lawyers right out of law school and so want to build good habits right away. But even for more experienced lawyers, we give honest feedback. This definitely leads to difficult conversations sometimes, but it is done with kindness. I feel like we have to build an atmosphere of trust first so that people feel safe to receive feedback without becoming defensive. We do a lot of reviewing each other’s work anyway and so this is kind of a natural extension of our mentorship project anyway. We also set clear expectations in writing at the beginning of the review period.

    3. There’s a difference between feedback and formal reviews. I agree there were unwritten expectations about not giving negative formal reviews, but people definitely gave critical feedback, in my experience.

      1. ^this
        real feedback including critical is part of the job of working with juniors
        at some companies, the right place for that is in the formal review; but at many, it’s not

        one of the best pieces of management advice I got was that the overall balance of your positive/negative feedback should reflect your overall sense of the person’s performance – so if overall a person is doing 80% good work you’re happy with, but you only say something when you need them to change what they’re doing, you’re missing a lot. Not for some fluffy “build their confidence” reason, but because you aren’t giving them enough information about what good + great work looks like – so when you do ask them to re-do something, you have to start from scratch in explaining what your standards actually are. When you’ve been consistently pointing out where what they’re doing is good, then when you ask them to re-do something, they already have a strong starting understanding of what good work looks like. Plus, when you give mostly negative feedback, but then actually promote/retain/etc them because you’re overall happy with their work, you’re training them to view mostly-negative-feedback as normal – so if you ever really do need to communicate “overall your work isn’t up to snuff and you’re going to lose assignments/your job/etc”, they don’t see a difference in the feedback ratio from you, and don’t understand how serious it is.

        2. Agreed that this is great advice. It underscores the importance of giving feedback consistently and addressing problems as they come up. A person should not receive negative feedback that they haven’t heard before in a formal annual review. That’s unfair and usually counterproductive.

    4. That particular junior probably isn’t the standard for giving/receiving feedback outside of the review process. Keep trying! It’s the right thing to do.

  4. Has anyone has lumpy scar tissue that has developed after a breast biopsy fixed to be less lumpy? It seems to be a plastic surgeon fix (vs the gyn or radiologist) and maybe a micro needling or RF or other non-surgical fix. How do I find a good one of those? In a big city, so someone I need likely exists (along with 100s that just do a lot of surgery with a certain look and I just want to go back to the old me).

    1. Ugh. I had this happen on my leg after a skin cancer biopsy. It took me a decade to finally deal with it, but I had my dermatologist scalpel it off and all of the associated wound care.

      1. Thanks. Here, it’s more internal (there is a new lumpy-thing that goes along the biopsy path). I can feel it and I’m sure a partner could, also. It’s fine and technically healed but I wasn’t imagining a new lump (and there wasn’t even an old lump, just a “linear non-mass enhancement.”

        1. how long ago as the biopsy? mine felt like this for several months, but a year on it is no longer noticeable.

    2. I would contact your breast surgeon and ask them for a referral to a plastic surgeon. Or see the person in your area that is best known for breast reconstruction.

  5. I have hardwood floors in my kitchen that are rough in a few spots (worn down to the bare wood, scratched up), but lovely in most of the kitchen.

    How disruptive is refinishing a wood floor? Is there a less disruptive option to fix spots? Or, any recommendations for decorative mats to cover rough spots?

    1. I wouldn’t think it’s too disruptive in a kitchen. It’s disruptive to do throughout your house because you have to move furniture, but in the kitchen the furniture is more minimal. You do have to stay off for 48 ish hours, then wear just socks for another couple weeks before putting the furniture back. So I guess if you can plan to get take out and stay out of the kitchen for a few days, it’s not a huge deal.

    2. Have you ever seen real lacquered oil cloth rugs? They’re traditional in older homes. They’re usually only available from crafts people.

    3. Refinishing is a little disruptive-you can’t walk on the floor for a few days, and the fumes may be rough, depending on what product they use, but it is so worth it. Newly-refinished floors look amazing, and you will love them every time you see them.

    4. I recently had my floors refinished. If you use a water-based stain/topcoat, you can walk in them (in socks) in 2-4 hours and move furniture back in 24 – 48 hours. The fumes are supposed to be less. It wasn’t bad the day after it was finished.

        1. Not directed at me, but I have had floors done several times, and no, it does not create a huge mess. The floor guys vacuum as they go and are responsible for clean-up. They have to get all of the dust off before applying new finish, or every speck shows, so they have an incentive to be thorough. They will tape off the rest of your house so dust does not end up in other rooms.

    5. You’d need to consult with a local company to determine if they can fix certain spots instead of needing to refinish the entire floor. It’s possible to do small repairs but impossible to know what works for your house without seeing it.

    6. In your kitchen?!?
      I’d get it done yesterday no matter the disruption because any water on bare wood means it’d be destroyed and you’re going to have to redo your floors entirely.

  6. I have a relative who desperately needs hip surgery. 50ish adult, lives alone in a 1-story house and is a bit of a hoarder. Other adults live nearby, but are all older. I could drive up for some of the recovery.
    1. IDK how double hip surgery recovery goes. Can anyone comment on how long / gruesome / etc. the recovery is and what a person may need personal assistance with and for how long?
    2. One concern we all have is that we can’t lift this person if a fall should happen or if any assistance is needed getting into / out of bed or toileting (I do understand that if we helped clear out a room, we could get a hospital bed that moves brought in as a rental, which seems like a great idea). My one experience is with an elderly woman who weighed 80 pounds and a gangly 100-pound teen (hip replacement adult is maybe north of 250 pounds) and dental surgery who was deadweight immediately after and took two adults, wound up fainting in the shower, and was terribly lucky she didn’t hit her head and have a catastrophic injury. So I’m not one for even trying things now and would love for this person to stay in the hospital or a rehab for several days (and what professional on the care team do you even bring this up with). I feel like for all modern medicine can do, it feels like a choose-your-own-adventure game when so much direct patient care is put on families.

    1. I’d suggest going to a consultation w/ your relative to find out what their post-op care needs will be. I’ve never heard of somebody having both hips replaced at one time. Even when both need replacing, one is usually done a year or so before the other (ime). Recovery with a single hip replacement really isn’t bad at all, and I wouldn’t worry too much about falling (though removing tripping hazards in the house is important). I’ve had a replacement and another surgery to fix the replacement – both times I walked with a walker the day of surgery, walked with a cane within about two days, and was pretty independent. (I’m mid-50’s and north of 200 pounds, fwiw.) This isn’t really a big deal surgery. But again that’s with a single hip, so ymmv.

      1. Could you generally get around? With doing 1 leg at a time, the surgery hip would be a post-surgery hip and the person is barely getting around (like bent forward at an odd angle and having to hop-shuffle the feet). Would it be weird to ask for a meeting and have the whole extended family care team come? I would pray that post-surgery rehab would be allowable given that I have work schedule / distance limitations and have to plan out vacation in advance and others are elderly / have challenges that make cooking and monitoring and driving the most help that they can safely and reasonably offer.

    2. My grandpa had a single hip replaced in his 60s and he needed help toileting for 2 weeks, couldn’t stand long enough to make a meal for a month and a half. I can’t imagine you’d have less than a month of really intense support needed for recovery if you did both at once.

      1. That is an unusually long recovery! My dad, my FIL, and my MIL all had it (in their 70s, one in their 80s) and were literally up and walking the day-of. Within a few days they were nearly back to normal (better!) mobility.

        I believe hip replacements are considered the easiest of all the replacement surgeries.

        1. +1. My mid 60s parent got a hip replacement recently and was walking the same day. A cane helped when getting up from a chair but they didn’t need assistance from another person.

      2. ??? This is wildly unusual for a standard single Hip replacement. Was something else happening?

        1. He was walking the same day, but his balance was terrible and the space was awkward. Hence needing help getting up.

    3. Agree that replacing both hips at once doesn’t seem common, in my experience. Both my dad and MIL (in their late 70s) have recently had theirs replaced and while it took MIL longer than desired to get back to her very active lifestyle, basic recovery for both wasn’t bad. They both were walking before they could leave the day surgery center. My dad made sure to install grab bars in the bathroom before hand, and they have good railings on the stairs, so he was fine in the bathroom right away and going up and down the stairs within a few days or a week (don’t remember exactly, but it wasn’t long at all).

    4. When grandma was in the assisted living and nursing homes, the advice we got was – don’t try and stop her from falling, and don’t try to pick her up. The falling will hurt her. But if she falls on you, then you’re both hurt! So don’t try and brace her fall.

      And don’t pick her up! That’s one of the first things older more fragile people learn is how to help themselves up and when to call for help. So you might need to get her a chair so she can brace herself or spot her. But you should not be bearing any of her weight like that in that instance.

    5. I have a good job that I’m not planning to leave, but I’m wondering if taking a CNA course might be a good use of time, considering how much of this I’ve already had to do (but had no idea what I was doing).

    6. The hospital will do an assessment of their home, and if they can’t be released home, will recommend/require a rehab home instead. In my experience with my mom, the hospital assigned visiting nurses in addition to in home PT.

      Rehab can 2-3 months but they get you up and walking right away. PT is key. Maybe do some research into places close to you? My mom’s insurance doesn’t pay for it, so she paid for the rehab home for her knee surgery, at about $7k a month.

      I’ve never heard of double hip, it seems that that would definitely require a rehab stay.

      1. To add…we installed grab bars in the bathroom and to/from the front door, installed risers to increase the height of the toilet, and changed to shower, and added a shower chair. Got her a new, lower bed Home adaptations will make life easier.

        Steps are a big issue the hospital will ask about.

    7. I’m with you that this doesn’t sound like something to even try to do without professionals. Given that the adult lives alone and is a bit of a hoarder, I’d jump straight to finding a facility over trying to figure out bringing care providers in. I’d be super up front with patient that no one in the family is appropriate to help with much of what’s needed in the recovery process.

      I’d start with asking the surgeon’s office or social worker at the hospital for recommendations for facilities. If that doesn’t work, I’d look for an elder care consultant to advise on facilities (social worker at hospital may know of local consultants).

    8. Double hip + person you can’t safely lift means you should be looking at an in person rehab facility for post op.

      Other options: doing one hip at a time (i.e. 2 smaller rehabs) with heavy duty modification of the house in advance.

      At minimum: renting a hospital bed + wheelchair + walker. Adding an elevated toilet seat, structural grab bars in the restroom, probably a bidet. Making sure you have a low lip shower (i.e. not a shower+ tub combo) + a stool in the shower + a sprayer hose, or ideally a wheel-in-shower. + ideally widening door frames to accommodate a wheelchair or removing the doors + hinges to get that space.

    9. I will try to answer your last question first. With the care team, you can ask to speak to social worker or case manager in a facility to say you are concerned about safety at discharge, living at home with limited physical help/presence of family or other caregivers, and difficulty navigating the physical space due to unsafe home environment-cluttered spaces, poor access to bed/bathroom, etc. you can as for an in-home evaluation where the therapist(s) come to the patient’s home and judge/measure/assess the actual space for themselves.

      As for the hip replacement itself, realizing I am not a doctor or a nurse but have worked in healthcare in direct patient care, hip procedures are definitely difficult. There are usually ‘hip precautions’ which limit a patient’s movement for multiple weeks afterward (no bending at the waist, no crossing the legs either in bed or in a chair, no lifting/straining) and these limit abilities for patients to care for themselves unaided.
      You can ask for an occupational therapist evaluation to help with acquiring special equipment, sometimes called a hip kit, to have grabbers/adaptors to help with toileting, bathing, and dressing (sock puller, toilet paper reacher, grabber).
      Having been on both sides of the issue with work and with my own family members I wish you and your person a successful, safe surgery and recovery.

    10. Can you say anything about what this person’s health is now? Do they take care of themselves (exercise/eat healthy), or are they declining or homebound and on disability?

      50 is not very old. But being 50 and needing two hip replacements make me worried that your relative has some severe progressive disease and/or obesity that may make the surgery/recovery/long term course more complicated. Is that the case?

      While yes the norm is to have people up and walking within a very short time after surgery, most people are not back to normal for weeks to months, and I worry that your relative will be on the longer end of the curve.

      People who do well after any surgery are in good health before hand, active, and are able to follow the doctor’s recommendations to engage aggressively in rehab exercises for weeks/months after surgery to improve.

      How long they stay in the hospital after surgery these days is – not very long. I agree with you that her team needs to know that she lives alone, there is no one there to help her. But I think unless she has amazing insurance it may be difficult to get much inpatient rehab without a fight. I like the idea of calling the orthopedist office and asking to speak with the social worker about this. Maybe they can help clarify what your family member’s insurance will cover, and what has happened with other patients in similar situations. Also, I love the idea of family going to the doctor’s appointment to ask lots of specific questions.

      And if you want to be really proactive, I totally agree that getting a shower bench and grab bars installed in the shower and by the toilet are key. Loose rugs should be removed, and all stairs should have good railings. A transport wheelchair, walker and cane will eventually be needed, and possibly a bedside commode. But all of these things depend upon your loved ones needs and we have no idea.

      Honestly, I’d ask for a prescription now for a few physical therapy sessions, ideally sending a PT to the house to help get it set up for after surgery. If we knew that she was going to be in the hospital/rehab for a few weeks after surgery, you could do that then, but that is unlikely.

  7. I have a friend who’s looking for a new job, and I’d like to brainstorm some roles. The skills she’d like to use are editing, writing (technical or creative), proofreading, and research. We’re in the DC metro area, if that matters.

    Does anyone know whether corporations outsource writing their SEC filing disclosures?

    Any ideas? Thanks for your thoughts!

    1. In normal times I’d suggest looking at proposal writing for federal contractors, but I don’t know what the market is for that right now. What has been helpful for me in the past has been to search LinkedIn or Indeed for job titles that include “writer” or “editor” and look at the job descriptions for what types of industries and job titles match well with my skills and experience and what I’m interested in doing. You may find some industries or roles that you had no idea existed.

      1. For federal contractors? Dismal and I honestly would recommend against trying (the only folks hiring are defense and ICE)

    2. Honestly a lot of that work will be done with AI. Ow, what other skills does she have? She’d be better off figuring out how to apply judgment and knowledge to a new role.

    3. Yes, firms outsource SEC filing disclosures. However, we outsource them to professional regulatory consultants, account administrators, or lawyers who focus on regulatory work, not random writers. The actual copy writing stays in-house because the external parties don’t know the content enough to write it for us, and even if we could explain it to them we would absolutely not trust someone with no regulatory experience to write it in such a way as to comply with the rule.

      Unless your friend has experience in this sector (which I’m guessing she doesn’t if this is a question she doesn’t know the answer to), she probably needs to be more realistic about where she might apply her writing skills.

    4. How entry level is she willing to do? A lot of those skills would be useful in nonprofit fundraising (aka Development) – grant writing, prospect research, drafting donor correspondence, etc. But entry-level salaries are generally awful.

    5. OP here, and thank you all — this is very helpful!
      As for the SEC filings, that was my own idea, and I’m very grateful for the reality check.

    6. In the DC area, any communications jobs are going to be challenging because they’ve decimated the federal comms workforce so those people are on the market as well and the related contract work is gone.

  8. Tips on managing a conversation with your new skip-level boss about problems with a coworker who is very good at endearing themself to upper management? For some context, I met with the skip-level boss to flag past challenges with role overreach and moving goalposts before this colleague replaced an outgoing coworker I worked very well with. Consequently, the three of us met together to gain alignment on expectations and who was responsible for what.

    My skip level boss said to come to him directly if there was a problem. Two months later, they are overreaching and the goalposts have been thrown clear into the next county. I have some specific, concrete examples of this person ordering me to change things outside of the scope we’d agreed on, and I plan to be as unemotional as possible when relaying this up the chain.

    I am just so tired of having to deal with this person already. It would be easier but they are so very, very good at politics.

    1. Tread carefully here. My read is you’re seen as the problem, not him. Meetings like that are meant to get you on board not the other way around. Talk to some people and figure out how to work with this guy because complaining to his boss isn’t the solution you think it is.

      1. Yes, I’m aware I need to tread carefully, but I do also need to flag issues–I should have mentioned this in my OP, but they are currently in an interim role and it will be up for discussion whether it becomes permanent.

        When I’ve worked with them previously, I’ve gritted my teeth and dealt with it because I didn’t think escalating concerns up the chain under previous leadership would be productive. My immediate supervisor is aware of all the backstory and dynamics, and agrees that I need to escalate this time.

        1. Then your boss should take it up with their peer. They are hanging you out to dry here and that doesn’t sound like “same page.”

          1. In my organization, if my skip level boss looks me in the eye and says “Come to me if this becomes a problem,” I should discuss it with him directly instead of having my boss do it. With that said, my boss will be raising it too.

        1. Yes, I’m not sure how my skip level boss saying he takes my concerns seriously, so wants the three of us to meet so we’re all on the same page in case there is confusion in the future, arises.

          My direct boss and I actually saw this as an improvement from the prior big boss, who is unlikely to have entertained a similar conversation and would probably have defended the individual in question no matter what.

    2. Does this person own the projects in question, or do you co-own? I do not mean do you both work on the projects. I mean if you did a RACI chart of the project, are you both in the same category or different categories? If you’re in different categories, are they in a category closer to the start of the acronym than you are?

      This conversation is very different if it’s a “they’re changing the scope that we, as co-owners, agreed to without consulting me” versus a “they’re the owner and they’re changing the scope in a way that is not workable for me as a contributor due to constraints” versus an “I own this project, and they’re supposed to be providing x piece but instead are working on y piece despite me saying we did not need y piece.”

      1. And I’ll add that for most of those conversations, you would be expected to have discussed it with the person first. If you haven’t done that, then you need to be a very light touch here if you have this conversation at all.

      2. They have a slightly higher title than I do, but we co-own the project. To put it in Ask a Manager metaphors, they manage the teapot lids; I manage the teapot pots; and so both pieces touch and must come together seamlessly for our clients, but are manufactured on separate equipment. In our initial meeting, they agreed that they are managing the teapot lids and I am managing the teapot pots. They are now attempting to dictate changes to the pots that are outside the scope of where the lids touch the pots–e.g., they’ve decided they want a new handle shape and a different decoration painted on the side.

        In terms of RACI, historically I would be R/A for pots and C/I for lids; they would be R/A for lids and C/I for pots.

      1. He has his own history working with the individual in question, so the two of us are on the same page.

        1. Why isn’t your boss involved in solving this? And does the colleague report to your skip boss or to someone else?

        2. 1. Has your boss tried to deal with the other individual’s boss?
          2. Can your boss participate in your skip-level meeting (or otherwise have a side conversation with grandboss) to add gravitas to your points?

          1. 1. My boss and this person both report to my skip-level boss.
            2. Yes, my boss will be raising it as a sidebar, and is free at the time I’m meeting with my skip-level boss in case I end up needing to pull him in.

          2. oooh so the problem guy is your boss’s peer. In my org it would be more appropriate for your boss to go to his boss (along with you for detailed support) from a political perspective.

          3. Yes, it’s a little tricky from an org chart perspective. We have a lot of dotted lines, which works well for our type of work 95% of the time but unfortunately I am in the 5% right now.

            I do think we’re a flatter organization than some of the folks weighing in. It’s normal for me to talk to my skip level boss for a handful of things, rather than my direct supervisor.

          4. Even in a flat org there are rules of engagement. You mention this guy is good at politics and it sounds like you aren’t getting it.

    4. Why are you doing this alone? Why isn’t this a meeting with your boss, you and skip level?

      1. I said this above, but I think we’re flatter organizationally than some places–it’s very normal for me to work directly with my skip level boss for certain things, and he told me to come to him directly if this issue emerged. My direct boss is available at the time I’m meeting with my skip level boss if things go sideways and I need to pull him in, though.

        1. I wouldn’t take that at face value. It’s a standard thing to say, but also to expect you work it out with your boss and his peer. You’re making your boss look ineffective here.

          2. This person does not care what either I or my boss thinks of them. They have made that crystal clear.

            Quite frankly I also don’t feel like getting either screamed at or given the silent treatment for the next three weeks (or until they’re in front of the skip level boss or our clients, in which case we miraculously become best friends). Which is what happens every time I or my direct boss attempts to deliver information they don’t like.

            This is all helpful feedback, though. I will plan to frame the conversation less as reporting a problem and more as, the issues I had flagged previously have emerged with concrete examples X and Y, how would you like me to handle this? Where X and Y are flagrant and objective overreaches that would not historically have been allowed for anyone in this role on this type of project.

          3. My boss has been doing his best. If this was a problem he could solve, it would have been solved several projects ago, but he can’t do anything about it without support from the person they both report to. Our previous big boss swallowed this individual’s act hook, line, and sinker.

        2. Okay, I think I get this – it’s your boss’s same level but you’re very commonly working directly with other dude and your grandboss.

          Assuming that you and your boss are on the same page, the way to have this conversation is to be very dry and factual. “Grandboss, I just wanted to flag that other dude has been deeply involved in teapot production. For the last several weeks, he has been looking to set up and change our course on teapot production but I was understanding that he was still working in the lid space. When I spoke with Boss, they share my understanding. Right now, the impact has been X.’ Remove as many emotions as possible. Give grandboss a heads up, but also leave space that there’s something you’re missing in the conversation. Recommend liberal use of the phrase, ‘That wasn’t my understanding, but happy to adjust if I’m missing something.’

          Have been here on the employee and grandboss sides. On the grandboss side, I don’t think my team realized that I saw that Other Dude was co-opting other people’s work and passing it off as his own… they weren’t on our calls when I would ask direct questions he couldn’t answer so I knew he was passing the work of others off as his own… but I also appreciated getting their feedback that they felt like he was taking their work, changing the title and putting his name on it.

          1. Thanks. Yes, you’ve got the org chart situated properly. I would always have been working with my skip level boss for medium to major issues involving someone filling this role, whether on this project or one of the others I manage, whether with this individual or someone else. I appreciate the feedback and understanding.

            I will use a lot of “my understanding is…” for sure. To me, this is exactly why I was glad to have that original meeting with the three of us—so my skip boss could hear this person say “I agree that my role is lids” for when they inevitably decided to tell me how to do pots.

  9. my middle school daughter asked me for advice on a social situation and i am crowdsourcing. Feel free to weigh in with or without direct knowledge of middle school girls, and DEFINATELY feel free to be very glad you are not yourself a middle school girl!

    My daughter has a group of ~6 good friends that tend to do social things together, like to go the movies or the mall or whatever. Among the pack of girls, she has a very defined best friend [B] (they’ve been besties since 2nd grade). She also has another friend [C] in the group that we see a lot of because our family is friends with their family- we have other same age children that are close and our husbands are close friends. This weekend, C invited the whole group of 6 girls to sleep over on Friday. B had family plans, two had big sports event the next day, and the last one, L, just declined and said she “had things early on saturday.”

    We had pre-existing plans to take B to a show in our local city on Saturday. My younger daughter had a ticket but didn’t want to go last minute. Since my daughter was at C’s house already, we invited C to come along and use the extra ticket (bonus, I dropped my younger one at C’s house to play with C’s sister).

    And now, the drama. On our drive into the city, all 3 girls were being rapid-fire texted by L. “Is anyone around? I want to hang out today.” I advised them to just put their phones away and not respond to her text so she didn’t feel left out or anything. However, apparently the texting continued and one of the girls in the car [not mine] has location sharing on with L, who was starting to say “I see you are in the city, what are you doing? who are you with?” etc. Eventually, one of the girls responds and says “sorry, I have plans today, can’t hang out.” L continues to ask what is happening, so finally, the girl tells her “I am in City with Daughter to see this show” and L asks who else is there, etc. It becomes a whole thing where she is upset she wasn’t invited, cannot believe they did something without her, etc.

    Now, mind you, I bought these tickets months ago as a gift to my kids and my daughter was always planning to bring Bestie. It was an opportunistic thing that C got to come and we were happy to have her. L is asking both to be included in every “big fun outing” which is completely unreasonable. My daughter said she feels stuck because she didn’t want to even tell L about it so she didn’t feel left out, but L keeps insisting on knowing what everyone’s plans are and then is upset that she isn’t included. Apparently L thinks that she should have been invited despite the fact that I did not have another ticket for her, and perhaps even that we should have given her the spare ticket and not C.

    Is there any reasonable advice here? My own kid is already not allowed to share her location with friends for this exact reason. She also has been coached to avoid talking about special fun events with people that are not invited ,and I think she does a pretty good job of this– but it’s really hard when someone is pressing you for details only to be mad about your answer. I have also advised a slow fade from this particular friend but that’s another story :).

    1. There is literally no problem here and nothing to be done. L will survive. Your daughter shouldn’t waste time or energy on this and neither should you.

      4. Yep. This is a good opportunity for L to learn that not everybody is invited to everything and sometimes the stars align and sometimes they don’t. If your daughter feels she needs to address it, the answer is “Well, we had an extra ticket and C was at the sleepover and you weren’t, so that’s just how it worked out this time. Maybe next time it will play out differently.”

    2. wait so the girls who couldn’t attend the sleepover because they were busy the next day are now the ones complaining they didn’t get invited to the City Event and bored and wanting to hang out? Goodness gracious am I glad I’m not 12.

      L sounds like a drama llama but that feeling of “oh I guess I’m lower down in your friends list than someone else” does sting even in middle age. If your daughter likes L then maybe she should make some 1-1 plans with L, like grabbing fancy Starbucks or going to Sephora or hunting Labubus or whatever else 12 year olds like to do. If your daughter only ‘gets along fine’ with L as part of the group, then maybe she should focus on 1-1 plans with the other girls. So it’s not like the group of 5 would be seen as freezing out L, just more individual friendship work?

      And yeah, exhibits A through M of why location sharing is a problem.

      1. Because I’m not a teen (but I have them):
        Is “location sharing” just being on iPhone friend finder reciprocally? Or something else? We had Life360 but it was a battery-drainer, so we have just used it in airport and non-local travel when we want to make sure a kid got to the out-of-town event or when they are expected to arrive back at school from a long trip, etc. Not for regular day-to-day things.

        1. I’m the OP. My kid’s friends have shared their location with her. I told her she can accept or not but she is not allowed to share with others (we have control over this). I think the other kids in the car were reciprocal which is how she knew.

    3. i would encourage your daughter to encourage all friends not to have location sharing. that is not appropriate with friends. and omg I have twin daughters – is there a way to keep them 7, I am DREADING all the friend drama. i dont think your daughter did anything wrong. i hate friend ‘groups.’ i personally never had one growing up and while sometimes i was jealous of those who did, it seems to involve a lot of drama

      1. In middle school, yes friend groups have drama.

        Any good friend group outgrows that though! The vast majority of high school, college, and adult friend groups are not dramatic.

      2. +1, location sharing without a specific goal (planning a meetup and seeing when they’ll be there, safety checks for dates when they get older, etc.) is just asking for trouble.

      3. You’re lucky if you haven’t experienced friendship drama even at this age. My 7 year old has had a ton already, though I don’t doubt it will be worse in middle school. Last week, a girl handed out birthday invites in front of her to all her friends and didn’t invite her – although that’s really the parent making a poor choice, I would never allow her to do that if the roles were reversed. She has friends who are starting to be allowed to text or use iMessage and that is causing a lot of drama as well.

        1. which is why 7 year olds shouldnt be texting. again, this is from the parents. we do have some drama at age 7, but not this level

    4. Eh, they’re growing up and learning they won’t be included in a pond invited to everything and that’s rough. It’s middle school so I’d let it blow over and would probably do nothing. If L presses on it, explain it was last minute and she was already hanging out with C because they’re family friends too.

    5. I think the answer to L should be that she was not invited because she said that she had plans. C got the ticket because she was the only one of the group with stated availability. For future events, you should invite 1) all 6; 2) just B; or 3) C with family.

      2. I agree with the first sentence, but I don’t think OP or her daughter did anything wrong asking C to the show. She had an extra ticket at the last minute, and OP’s daughter was already at C’s house. Nobody went out of their way to exclude L or any of the other girls.

      3. +1
        “Oh we just decided to do this last minute because everyone else was unavailable”

      4. I disagree with thelast sentence. OP should not feel obligated to bring 6 girls on all big outings. It is totally fine for her daughter to only invite her 1-2 closest friends (even though this time C was an opportunistic invite – even if she has originally invited only B and C on this outing, it would have been totally fine IMO).

    6. I think this is mostly a learning moment for L, to not ask prying questions if you won’t like the answers. Minor side learning for your kid, that people will be unreasonable whatever you do, and you can’t please everyone and that’s okay. And how setting boundaries can work (not sharing location), while also remaining warm towards a friend and making her feel like they want to hang out with her (just not all the time)..

    7. Whew. I’m really glad to be past the middle school years!
      I would let my daughter blame this one on me if I thought it would help. Say my mom planned this for Bestie and me, and then she invited C when my little sister didn’t want to come because little sister was going to C’s house. Mom limited the group size. I was occasionally willing to be the bad guy when it would relieve some pressure or give my kid an out.
      But the other problem here is that L isn’t being reasonable. Clearly not every outing can involve everyone, due to cost or transportation limitations or whatever. And nothing you or daughter do or say will make L be reasonable.
      Location sharing sucks. And once you start, you can’t turn it off to avoid this situation, because that will prompt questions from “that friend” about why it’s off. Ask me how I know.

    8. The location sharing seems like a huge source of unnecessary drama. L also sounds rather needy and attentions seeking in unhealthy ways. It would be good to help equip your own daughter to recognize this, and help her normalize not taking the bait. She doesn’t have to hide that she does things with subsets of the friend group. It’s okay that plans changed and L was taken at her word rather than shut out intentionally. It is very normal that the subset’s parents wanted to do something together last minute and that 12 year olds aren’t exactly calling the shots. L wasn’t intentionally excluded; if she chooses to become butthurt over finding out that people do things when she isn’t around, that’s a quick way to ensure she is actually left out on purpose.

    9. Without direct knowledge of middle school girls, I think I would have disagreed with your recommendation in the moment to “put their phones away and not respond so she didn’t feel left out,” since I think not having an answer in the moment led to L’s feeling’s of being left out escalating. I would have told them to respond honestly with something like, “on our way to the city to see Show. A’s mom bought tickets for her, B, and her sister, but her sister couldn’t go so now C is coming. We knew you had plans this morning so we didn’t text you. Maybe we can hang out tomorrow?” or whatever would have made sense for the last sentence/question. L most likely did not have actual plans that morning and made up that excuse to not attend the sleepover and now’s she’s upset at the consequences of that choice (or her perceived consequences as attending would not have meant getting to go to the show!) and this is how she’s responding because she is 12. She’s looking for someone else to blame for her hurt feelings besides herself. If L keeps bringing it up, I would work on some stock response your daughter can give her, like, “I’m sorry you couldn’t be invited – the other ticket was for my sister and we invited C because I was already at her house and thought you were busy. I’m sorry your feelings were hurt.”

      1. This, OP. This is the healthy way to react and respond.

        Agree especially that telling 12 YOs to put away their phones and and avoid responding to L so she doesn’t feel left out is…not great. Not only for L’s anxiety about being left out, but also not a mature example for the rest of the group of how to handle situations like this without feeding the drama.

        1. +1
          I’m kind of surprised at everyone calling L immature and needy. The lack of response (encouraged by OP) was way less mature, imo, and kind of fuels a dramatic reaction.

          1. Agreed. We’re talking about 12 year old girls. I’d rather presume that L is feeling a natural and understandable level of insecurity that can be easily fixed by a simple explanation, not drama-mongering. It’s not unreasonable to seek reassurance that you’re not being left out, and while I’d have higher expectations for an adult woman, a 12 year old is by definition immature.

    10. Please teach your daughter that it is not her job to manage L’s (or anybody’s) feelings like this! L will get over it.

      1. Worst answer on this thread. Teach your daughter to be kind and explain what’s going on. L can handle it.

        1. OMG no, it is not on OP’s daughter to bend over backwards every time L or any other person in her life feels uncomfortable. Teaching her that it is puts the daughter in a bad position for the rest of her life.

          1. there is a lot of space between bending over backwards and just talking with each other.

          2. “bend over backwards”? You mean, don’t ignore your friend and send a quick text letting her know that she’s not being excluded?

            “anytime anyone feels uncomfortable”? You mean, in a discrete instance where someone who is ostensibly a friend is feeling anxious and sad because of something I did (even if it wasn’t wrong) and I have the power to easily clarify the situation?

            Nope – no one is teaching daughter to bend over backwards any time any person in her life feels uncomfortable. That’s not what anyone’s suggesting.

        2. Yep. One can, and should, be kind to friends and considerate of their feelings. Teaching the importance importance of basic kindness/consideration and attentiveness to your own friends’ feelings is not teaching them that it’s her job to manage someone else’s feelings. L will “get over it” when she hears a reassuring explanation that she wasn’t left out. L won’t “get over it” if she is left to twist in the wind and her texts are ignored. She’ll feel excluded.

    11. Op Here- thanks for all the thoughts! I suspected there really isn’t a right answer on my daughter’s end of things but wanted to make sure I wasn’t missing anything. I have already offered that she can always blame me for things, I did tell all 3 girls in the car that this is one of the reasons we don’t allow our kid to do location sharing (with obvious exceptions like if they are going somewhere together and need real time location intell), and I have already talked to my kid about how to phrase things with L, and others, when they aren’t invited (eg. she could have said “we ended up going right into the city after the sleepover, can we get together tonight when we are back?”), and yes, L is 100% a drama llama but such is life in middle school. L also is on her phone constantly– and i mean like every moment, I’ve seen her screen time usage!– which contributes immensely to this sort of thing. My kid has a phone but has a lot of restrictions on it [and she doesn’t even bring it to school] and I’ve proven to her more than a few times that it’s for her own good.

      FWIW, one of the girls that had an all day sporting event chimed in at the end of the day with “this is the dumbest thing to be upset about L. You didn’t even want to go. I came back to 200 texts about nothing. By the way, i medaled!”

      1. Why are you proving things to your 12 year old for her own good?

        Honestly, and I mean this as an outside observer and not trying to be judgmental, but you sound like you are feeding the drama yourself and are so close you don’t see it.

        2. Yah I’ll be honest that my gut reaction as a parent is that not every conflict has to be “drama”, and we are feeding into it by referring to it as such (come now, 7yos don’t have drama. They are learning to socialize, this is just a thing they have to go through). Not necessarily directed at you, OP, but just something I’ve noticed has become a common parenting refrain and source of angst.

          I would try to be an empathetic ear and sounding board, and have strong rules and boundaries for your own child, but otherwise let kids sort out their own social lives (insofar as everyone is safe). Discomfort and awkwardness is necessary for growth.

          1. Plus, I feel like the word drama is only used to talk about the social conflicts girls have, which is totally dismissive and misogynistic.

        3. Sounds like OP really dislikes L and wants a board full of adults to join her in criticizing a 12 year old.

    12. I completely disagree with your advice they should ignore L. They weren’t doing anything wrong, so they should have just said, “B and C and I are going to a show today! Love to hang out another time!” These girls need to be taught that not everyone is going to be able to be included in everything, and sometimes people within a group are closer to each other and spend more time together. I really don’t think “don’t talk about fun events with people who aren’t invited” is a good across-the-board practice. It’s lying by omission, which is worse than just being honest.

  10. I work with some high drama people – things are always chaotic or mountains are constantly being made out of mole hills. Conversations are loud, full of interruptions and tangents.

    My office-mate, who has historically been a friend, is one of these people. This is just how she is in life – I hear her conversations with her husband, their kids, and her mother and it’s always like this (like her husband never knows what time the kids’ school ends, the kids don’t have bedtimes)… all this to say it’s not just who she is at work.

    We work in an, at times, fast paced, chaotic job thats emergency services-adjacent. I love the pace when it’s warranted, but have no patience for manufactured chaos. Chaos can get people killed and frankly it’s just annoying. Things can be on fire (literally or figuratively), but it’s still not advised to respond with our own chaos.

    My approach to life and my job is to be prepared when possible, but then go with the flow. I’m kind of a mix of type A and type B. Type A for what I can control and very Type B for what I can’t (and I think figuring things out on the fly is fun).

    Normally I’m good about being “good for you, not for me”, but this high chaos personality is really grating on me. In addition to having colleagues like this, I also have some friends and relatives with this personality and I’m just overstimulated by it right now.

    Aside from getting out and going on a walk, any tips on what I can do when it’s bothering me?

    1. This is what gray rock is for. Respond as minimally as possible. Don’t ask questions. I’m unclear on if you’re just observing her chaos or if she’s dragging you into it. I might be your co-worker in some ways but I’d never dream of trying to drag other people into it. Stay away and stay clear

      1. A little bit of both – mostly observing it but we work on a few projects together where it becomes directly my problem.

    2. It sounds like you both thrive in your jobs for very different reasons. I think the answer here is caring less. Don’t ignore her, but with time it will be easier to tune out her drama and just let her go on without absorbing what’s being said.

      1. Yeah I definitely try not to care but I can’t help but hear it. We also work on a lot of projects together, where I really can’t escape it.

        I shouldn’t let it bother me, but sometimes it does!

  11. Married couples – how do you handle conflict between the partner that likes to spend/is more materialistic and the partner that likes to save/be minimalist. This comes up every Christmas, and I’m also considering how this dynamic is going to play out for an upcoming move – my husband got a good job opportunity that will require an interstate move and in this economy I expect it will take quite some time for me to find a new job, so I know conflict about how to spend the money and what to prioritize is going to come up while we’re down an income.
    (Disclaimer that I don’t consider this a fundamental incompatibility and often it’s good that I reel him in and that he helps me to make purchases that really do improve my life. It’s just very tiring and I’d love to shortcut the inevitable negotiations.)

    1. My partner and I are like this, but in an emergency or major change, like a move or one income, I know to keep the wallet closed. I suspect your spouse can tamp it all down too, while you adjust.

    2. I’m not into “stuff” and we’ve never exchanged holiday gifts, but I’m the spender in the relationship on stuff like travel and experiences. The honest answer is that this is a huge part of why I work outside the home. I’m not sure our marriage would be happy if he were the only earner, even though his salary could comfortably provide for our basic needs. But since I work, it’s never really come up, it’s kind of just taken for granted that because my added earnings give us a lot of disposable income I can buy the things I want to buy.

    3. First, we assess if the extra spending is truly a drain on the budget, or if it means we save a little less than is comfortable but still objectively are doing “well enough”.

      Then, I would set a budget, likely per person / bucket instead of overall to make it more likely you’ll stick with it (like, “fun activities”, “gifts for DH’s family”, etc). Sometimes if we find the perfect thing we’ll go over the budget, but we discuss and make a separate decision. And revert back to number 1 for that.

      For a move, you also have to set a detailed budget. It will likely feel too small for him and too large for you, but that’s compromise. I guess it all comes back to having a plan for your money that you develop together, instead of willy-nilly spending

      1. I know that this board (or at least historically) is big into their buckets of spending, but it’s not something my spouse or I would/could ever do. It would just seem like a “make work” exercise, and not a part of real life planning. If we’re out of money for the month, we won’t go out to dinner or make Amazon purchases, but we won’t evaluate “separate buckets” to see what’s feasible.

        1. You are lucky then, most people in this country have a finite amount of funds and have to (or should) budget to keep from running out of money by the end of the month! (And I don’t mean for going out to eat, I mean for groceries and gas.) I record my spending in my “buckets” about four times a month, and will pull back or reallocate based on how things are trending. I don’t think this is make-work, I think it’s a smart way to manage spending and savings goals in real time

          1. It’s not that you don’t have a budget, it’s that trying to be that granular about ‘buckets’ is tedious. Like, we put everything on one credit card for the points, and so if that card goes over X in a month, we reign it in the next month. A lot easier than saying “oh we were $100 under in our dinners out budget this month so I can spend $100 more on clothes.”

          2. Not the OP, but what you describe as tedious is actually much easier for me. I don’t call them “buckets” myself, but I know my budget allows for a certain amount of discretionary spending on, say, dining and if we haven’t gone out to eat at all this month, then we can instead spend that amount to replace the kitchen gadget that just died, without needing to refigure our whole budget. This is second nature to me.

            On the other hand, if I didn’t earmark funds for certain expenses in my budget, I have no idea how I would know whether I could afford a splurge or need to scrimp in order to make the mortgage payment. Unless money were no object, I would not be able to operate without a framework to go by.

          3. Ok, maybe we’re talking past each other. I only have four buckets and they are broad – Utilities/Recurring expenses, Food, Church/Charity, Miscellaneous. So the credit card method you described is perhaps similar to my “Misc” bucket, but I need to keep closer tabs on the others. I actually find this to be freeing because I have a lot of wiggle room in Misc, but I am confident the essentials will always be covered.

          4. Adding – for me, Christmas spending goes into “Miscellaneous” and I spread it over the fall. But my broader point is that if something is a pain point, like holiday spending for this couple, my recommendation is to make a specific budget for that particular spending category. Then you have the freedom to spend the money without the stress of realizing you went over your credit card goal at the end of the month and are still missing gifts for three people. So yes, you get granular but only in certain situations.

      2. I agree that you need to set a budget for holiday spending, and you frame it in the context of your changed economic circumstances. The way I’d frame the discussion is: “Given all the changes in our lives, I know things are a little tighter money wise. I know we have traditions for the holidays that are important to us, so I just want to make sure we’re being transparent about what we think is reasonable for this year so we can balance celebrating and being responsible”

    4. Neither of us falls into the “spender” or “saver” category for everything, but we have disagreements about particular things. When we have a disagreement, we sit down and come up with a vision for that thing, and discuss whether and how we’re going to come up with the money for it.

      So for Christmas, I keep a spreadsheet of how much we spend on Christmas. Everything goes on there–presents, decorations, travel, holiday tips, gifts for teachers and secretaries, activities, food we take to holiday gatherings, etc. We talk in late December or early January about what worked and what didn’t, and what we want to do next year. Then we save a certain amount every month all year in a sub-savings account. When October comes around and I start buying presents and planning activities, there’s no stress about money.

      For the move and going down to one income, it would be the same but on a larger scale. Come up with a vision for the next year. Where will you live (apartment or house, which neighborhood, etc.). What are your goals? Do you need any big purchases? Do you have anything you can sell? Figure out your fixed costs for the next year (should be about 50-60% of his income until you get a job). Then set some guidelines for how much you’re going to save, invest, and have for disposable income. Also, each partner should have at least a small amount of no-questions-asked “fun money,” even if one of you is not working.

      It’s a marriage. I don’t think you can shortcut the inevitable negotiations without it leading to resentment and frustration.

    5. Will both of you stick to a plan, once you’ve agreed upon it? if so, negotiate priorities and lay out a spending plan (AKA budget) in advance. It won’t solve the mismatch between the two of you, but it might contain the negotiation and disagreement into once or twice a year. Ideally, the budget would make both of you somewhat unhappy (more than you want to spend; less than he does).

      Of course, if the spender doesn’t pay any attention to the agreed-upon priorities / limits and blows right past them, that’s a different ballgame.

    6. We’re the reverse, but in this type of situation, a frank conversation with my spouse about “hey, we’re about to hit a storm of moving expenses together with a yet-to-be-determined net pay cut for the two of us. Can we talk about how to manage that” would be totally fine and we’d go from there. Like, even if there is a relo package, moving is expensive, from the cost of paint to ordering more takeout because you’re pooped from unpacking.

      1. This is usually how our conversations start and then we’ll out some numbers in a spreadsheet with the knowns and high/lows or best case/worst case projections. Based on those numbers, we decide if there are some actions we can take now to mitigate the impact and put those numbers in also so you can measure the impact of current spend against the anticipated future spend.

        Let it fester a couple days, try to firm up a few more numbers, then come back and agree on a plan that meets in the middle.

        1. Yes. Hoarding money instead of enjoying experiences and a lifestyle is a form of materialism. For example, my husband has extreme financial anxiety and has resisted renovating or furnishing our home. We can’t have people over because there are literally no chairs for them to sit in, so we can’t have the social life he wants. He has prioritized hoarding money over living life.

          1. Ugh. I’m so sorry. This would be a deal breaker for me if he wasn’t willing to talk about this with a therapist. I hope you can someday reach a compromise.

            My parents had a similar dynamic. My Mom finally just gave up. They bought one piece of new furniture at a time, only after long long periods of research. And no basic repairs were done on the home until after they separated.

        2. Original poster overall, not the person who brought up that excessive saving can be materialism. But I totally agree with the point! Materialism as “caring more about material stuff than intellectual/spiritual/social” can absolutely be expressed by prioritizing having money over everything else.

          If we want to get pedantic about it, my husband likes to have nice things while I like to have more material stability/security. But both are material things and therefore a form of materialism.

    8. If you’re the minimalist about Christmas, find ways to add holiday spirit that are free – walk around neighborhoods with the best lights, etc. It sucks to have someone shoot down every fun and festive because it costs money, but there are ways around it.

      1. My guess is DH wants to spend big money on gifts, not experiences. I’m not aware of any man who is urging his wife to buy expensive tickets to the Nutcracker or spending a bunch of money on a Christmas train ride with Santa.

    9. We got divorced, and I’m now in a relationship with a fellow frugal minimalist, and it is AMAZING. YMMV.

  12. i have very narrow shoulders. 20 years ago when i used to wear suits every day i used to get blazers that had three buttons because the higher stance was more flattering on me. I have looked at every mainstream vendor i can think of (j crew BR brooks ann taylor theory…) and none have a blaver when, if buttoned, the top button is at or above the bust. has anyone run into a jacket that’s higher (other than a lady jacket which fits better but isn’t a suit) please let me know where!! thanks!!!

    3. Would something like the rag & bone Slade jacket work for you? Or too informal? I’m not sure if they sell coordinating pants.

    6. I also have narrow shoulders and have had good luck with blazers that don’t button like the Theory Lanai collarless suit jacket.

    7. Maybe a larger department store? Dress Barn type of place? That cut isn’t really a current trend so you might have better luck at a place that carries brands and styles that cater to a less fashion-forward audience.

    11. Have you tried any double-breasted styles? The top button may be lower than the bust, but because of the overlap, the neckline of the jacket is higher.

    13. Lafayette 148 Three-Button Academy Blazer or Responsible Finesse Crepe Three-Button Blazer

  13. What are your favorite conversation topics at client+service provider “thank you” dinners? Are there any questions you prefer folks avoid asking? Any questions you really are OK with/don’t mind/could get you comfortable? Any favorites you ask or topics of conversations you find are natural openers?

    I’m seated at the end of a 20-person table, the person next to me is known to be silent at these dinners and no one is seated across from me. If there’s a way to not annoy him but draw him into some conversation, I want to try!

    1. I’m at a conference right now so a lot of these dinners.

      Usually, just small talk. TV shows/movies can be good because it’s usually a neutral topic. Have you ever been to this city – and then take it from there to either travel or something else about their life they mention. Their kids/pets/home improvement project. Sometimes you have to get a little trivia-y about it, but it can turn into a good conversation – like “what’s the most unusual place youve been on a work trip?”

      A client asked everyone how they found out and joined our company, that was cute and fun. He was a good conversationalist. We are an international group so he also asked about some news from each country, but that’s probably a case by case idea.

    2. What summer highlights stand out, what seasonal traditions are they looking forward to, how did they get started in this industry, what did they like or not about their alma mater, etc.?

      Asking open ended questions that need more than a simple yes or no in order to respond are more likely to encourage conversation. But coming from a quiet person who sometimes feels like chatty types are unintentionally interrogating me, take a cue from them on whether to push them to talk or just give them space to be quiet.

    3. Honestly as a naturally quiet person, I really appreciate it when the person I’m “conversing” with just talks about themselves. Is that something you’d be comfortable doing? Just line up a list of anecdotes or topics you enjoy talking about and plan to more or less monologue at him? Basically whatever you can do to make it entertaining for yourself. Think of it as being a podcast host with a reticent guest, lol.

  14. If you celebrate Christmas, how many trees do you have in your house? We’ve always had one, in the main living room, but I’m thinking of adding a second smaller one in our basement family room, which gets used if we host any holiday gatherings. I already have some Christmas decor down there, but it would be kinda fun to have a tree.

    1. We just have 1 in the sitting room but if I had a basement, I’d do one of those scandi wooden trees.

    2. One now – we’re DINKs in a small city house. Growing up in a large suburban home we had 4 – the fancy living room one with the breakable baubles, the kid-friendly one in the family room with plastic and felt ornaments, and then one in each kid’s room decorated with “their” ornaments – like souvenirs grandparents brought back from traveling, etc.

    3. 1 and I can’t see adding more. We have no space and even if we did, it feels more special to me (since it’s what I grew up with) to have one special tree.

    4. 1 tree. Growing up, my mom put up multiple trees, several with their own theme. A couple of years, she had 5 trees! Three of them were small, but still, it was too much work and too much stuff.

    5. I’ve never had more than one because of space constraints, but I like your idea for where to put a second one!

    6. We had just one (artificial) for 10 years, but I added a real tree two years ago and will keep doing that. I think having a second where you host makes perfect sense if you’re up for the work.

    7. I am all for multiple trees! We had the big one in the family room, a smaller one in the living room with a specific collection of ornaments, and a smaller one that we take along if we travel for Christmas. Don’t think we are traveling this year so Tinsel the Traveling Tree will probably go in the guest room.

    9. One because that’s all I have room for, but would totally have more if I had space. Growing up, we had the one main tree in the living room and my sibling and I both had mini trees in our bedrooms for our ornaments. I’m not even religious, I just love trees and lights in the middle of winter when it’s dark at freaking 4:30 in the afternoon.

    10. The official tree is in the family room. I have a mini tree with lights and mini glass balls in “my” room (home office/music room/workout room/rec room) just for fun.

    11. Just the main one in the living room, but I see nothing wrong with multiples if you want them!

    12. I’m Jewish and have none but some of my daughter’s friends have mini ones in their bedrooms and I think that’s so cute.

  15. are guitar-strap bag handles still in? if not, is there something else that’s a nice way to change the strap on a bag?

    1. Also interested! I currently use store bought pastry and make my apples/sugars/butter/lemon/cornstarch on the stove top because I don’t trust that it will have the taste/softness I want otherwise, and then I put it into a pie pan where the bottom crust has been lightly baked, put the top crust on, cut shapes into, and bake until brown.

    2. Look up “vintage no fail pie crust” and find the recipe that has egg and vinegar in it. Use that for your crust. The egg helps bind things together while the vinegar keeps things tender/prevents shrinkage. After that, apple pie fillings are very easy and forgiving so just find a recipe that has a filling you think looks good.

    5. Double 8in crust:
      2 1/4 C flour
      1 tsp salt
      2/3 C oil
      4 Tbs (+ little bits more until the dough cleans the sides of the bowl as you stir) ice water.

      Keep it cold, avoid overworking or touching it with your hands (roll between sheets of wax paper).

      Apple pie filling is super easy, just slice apples – I use a food processor, mix with 1/4 – 1/2 C sugar depending on what type of apples you’ve used and how sweet you like your pie, and then stick little pats of butter in between & on top when you put them in the pie pan.

  17. thank you to everyone who had suggestions re the blazer that buttons higher up. extra thanks to whoever recommended artizia. they have a few options (with lots of buttons and with no buttons) that i think might work!

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