Thursday’s Workwear Report: Midi Modal Dress

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1. DH was one week away from completing grand jury duty service in DC when everything shut down. Now he’s being asked to return to serve that last week. I’m alternating between thinking it’s just a week, no big deal to panicking and picturing us getting sick. I’ll have to manage virtual school for our two little kids and my job.
   Has anyone served jury duty or been in a courtroom recently. How has it been?

   1. People like your husband need to push back vigorously against being summoned to serve in person on grand or petit juries. There is a public health emergency, and no one should be forced to risk his life in order to appear in court in person. I’d be hiring a lawyer to fight it.

      1. The jury and grand jury system implicates fundamental rights of individuals. I don’t see how these are not essential functions of government. E.g., in my state, if I am arrested and charged by police with a felony, I can demand that the state indict me and if it fails to, I am free. This is not a right that can be denied and my speedy trial rights mean that it cannot be delayed without prejudicing the state.

         I imagine that these are like many things: they can be done safely or not safely.

         1. Yes, all of this. Grand Juries are incredibly important, as are petit juries of course.

            OP — In my locality, Grand Juries are now set up in much bigger rooms, with social distancing, everyone wearing masks, tons of plexiglass and open windows (old courthouse so no ventilation system). Nothing is 100%, of course, but we’ve had it running for over two months now and it hasn’t had to be shut down due to any outbreaks. I enormously appreciate everyone who is coming in to serve — it is incredibly important. Obviously, someone who is high risk should be excused, but those of us for whom it is a mere inconvenience should remember the importance of this to the defendants and victims.

            1. What would one need to do to prove that they were high risk? With risk factors in so much of the population it seems like it would be incredibly difficult to seat a jury if everyone who was high risk was excused. That said, I am high risk and can’t imagine serving on a jury at this point. In my county, one would need to take a shuttle from the parking to court house, the shuttle is jammed in the best of circumstances, then sit in a jury room (the only ones I’ve been in have been windowless), then sit in a court room (again, the only ones I’ve seen are windowless). Being called to jury duty at this point in time is actually one of recurring covid nightmares.

            2. But all this is referencing your jury experience in Before Times. In my jurisdiction, they have totally changed the physical space they are using for trials and juries. They are using the local conference center. Jurors are masked and social distanced (seats 6 ft apart) at all times.

            3. You have no idea that’s how they are running jury duty now and here a doctors note willdo

            4. In Arlington County, no on I knew who lived there was ever called to state / federal juries of any kind. In DC, I don’t know a resident there who hasn’t been called for petit juries. So much of the DC population is law enforcement related (or possibly criminal related) that most people are excused for presumed cause. Only then do you get to the sick / high risk people. Now is the time to remember that not only does your dad work for the postal service, but is a postal inspector (treated as law enforcement).

            5. Sitting 6 feet apart with a mask with the same people in a poorly ventilated room all day is still incredibly dangerous. Someone needs to figure out a way to have trials without endangering jurors’ lives.

            6. Like prosecutors and defense counsel and sheriff’s officers are expendable?

         2. +1

            If your husband isn’t high risk, it’s absolutely worth it for him to “risk” it so that these important government functions can continue. A little personal risk is very worth the continuation of society. So many other people went about their jobs this spring and will continue to do so this fall at great personal risk in order to keep important functions functioning. Many essential workers never thought they’d be working through a pandemic and yet they were. A little personal sacrifice goes a long way.

            1. And they were able to quit if the chose to—a very different scenario than a juror.

            2. Eh – being able to just quit requires a LOT of financial privilege. I’m an essential worker, my dad is an essential worker, and I have a lot of (non-work) friends who are essential workers. Not a single one of us could have quit if we wanted to…

            3. Exactly. Along with financial need, many people who are essential workers or their companies provide an essential service consider it a duty to the communities we serve to go to work. It’s so disrespectful to just say well, people can quit. Unless you don’t want food, electricity, water, news, internet, healthcare etc. If you are OK without those things, I guess we all can quit.

               Jury duty is the same, it’s explicit in the name. It is our duty to serve unless we have a really, really good reason not to.

            4. +1. I work in a Sheriff’s Office. None of us ever stopped working, in person, with precautions, even when the courthouse was closed to the public. Law enforcement, security, prisoner transports, even civilian staff jobs–those can’t be done from home. Our courthouse has been open for months in an area that has seen small surges. We’ve had jury trials back for three months. No issues in our office or in our jury pools. It can be done.
               As much as so many people would seem to like it to, the country can’t actually stop running and the justice system can’t take a hiatus from serving people and protecting people’s rights. If you don’t want to go to a restaurant or get your hair done, that’s fine. If you are high risk, tell them that. Otherwise, jury duty is an essential civic function and it’s not always fair in terms of who gets called when, but it’s necessary.

            5. I’m sorry Anon @10:45, but what world do you live in that you think people who work in public service can quit if they choose to? Most of them are working because, you know, they need the money to pay their rent/mortgage, buy food for themselves and their kids, and because they need health insurance. No one in this area of work has enough money in the bank to just stop working.

            6. I’ll happily quit my essential job if you cover my living expenses!

            7. +1 Anon at 11:22

               As a public servant, I don’t make enough that I can “just quit” BUT much more than that, I’m a public servant, I serve my community and I do feel it is a calling/a duty. I do not feel as though I can just walk away from my job, ESPECIALLY when the community I serve needs me the most.

         3. My father actually is a postal inspector and that didn’t get me out of petit jury service in DC. Found that reference humorous…thanks for the chuckle

            1. And most postal workers are not postal inspectors! My dad’s a letter carrier, but is not a postal inspector! USPIS is a subset of USPS

            2. In NJ, Postal Inspector was seen as a law enforcement job and routinely got people’s relatives removed from the jury pool for a first degree relative connection (parents, spouses, children). My grandmother was a civilian employee at a prison and I was a crime victim (of a felony), so that could get me excused but I haven’t ever been called. I did used to clerk though, so watched voir dire a million times.

      2. I’m curious: on what grounds can you resist a petit or grand jury summons via a lawyer? There are reasons you may be excused (and you just raise them), but I’ve never heard of this.

   2. I’m in a courtroom daily. It’s fine. Social distancing, pretty empty courtrooms, everyone is masked. Trials, particularly criminal ones, are an essential function of our society. We cannot keep people jailed indefinitely, nor can we safely release everyone pre-trial. This is simply something that we can, and do, do safely. We had this discussion weeks ago and I’m sorry, but your concerns do not trump defendants’ rights to trials.

      1. how can people be excused if they are high risk?

         1. By sending in a doctors note.

         2. During voir dire, the jurors are sworn to tell the truth. In my jurisdiction, if the clerk doesn’t excuse you, you tell the judge under oath that you have a condition that makes you high risk and the judge would excuse you. You can ask to approach if it’s something you don’t feel comfortable saying publicly. In the before times, I had this happen with jurors who had, for example, bladder conditions that required frequent bathroom breaks on very little notice. The judges never asked for a doctor’s note.

            1. Hm, but you have to go in person to have this little chat, during which you are at risk in the very way you’re trying to avoid :(

            2. Anon at 11:01- in our city, voir dire is being done via video so no, you don’t have to be in person for that “little chat.” It’s one juror in a room by themselves.

            3. Anon from 11:01, I’m still confused. They’re in this room at home or ?

            4. It’s nice it’s done video where you are. It’s not done that why where I am. That’s part of the problem. No assurance of uniform precautions.

      2. I really appreciate the people speaking up about this. I am extremely frustrated by the people who seem to think that they can’t possibly be called upon to take any risks (for things that obviously affect *other* people, like criminal matters), but still certainly expect their food to keep coming, their government to keep functioning, their healthcare to still be available, and their technology to keep functioning. They act as if it’s fine for *those* people to take the risks, of course.

         1. There’s no reason to take risks for things that are unnecessary & have alternatives though.

            1. What alternative are you proposing?

         2. Yeah the OP is blind to her privilege here. My husband has not been able to WFH at all, as he’s an essential front line worker and he’s been exposed to covid literally dozens of times. It’s so irritating when people complain that they’re worried about risks to their own families- like hello, you think families of essential workers aren’t worried? The posters saying essential workers should just quit their jobs if they’re worried is so tone-deaf it’s really astonishing. Get out of your bubbles, ladies.

            1. Yep, this. I’m not trying to be callous, but the privilege of people on this board who act like they couldn’t possibly “risk their lives” (short answer: statistically, they’re not, or at least, but that measure, they’re also risking their lives to go to the grocery store or walk their dogs) and dare to leave their home (only selfish people do that) are so damn privileged I find it disgusting. Jury trials are essential. Just because they don’t effect you in your privileged bubble doesn’t mean they don’t effect other people. You are not such a special snowflake, and your family is not more important than that of the defendant and victims. Unless you have a serious health condition and are truly high risk, you should absolutely be forced to serve on a jury.

               You are not more important than other people. Period.

            2. One person may have said that, but my own belief is that everyone who is not essential needs to stay home as much as humanly possible to protect those who are essential. It’s going to hurt your husband if more people say “ok let’s make it equal and ALL go to court today!”

            3. I’m an essential worker (work in government for a field that’s been heavily involved with the COVID response) and I get frustrated when people just assume I work from home (no landlord, I can’t be home to let the repair man in, I’m at work). The only time I worked from home was when I had a COVID scare and had to quarantine while waiting for testing results. I actually got a paycut mid COVID,

               My dad is a mailman – he was originally given no PPE (back when everyone still thought that COVID could be transmitted on packages) and still had to keep doing his job. My mom is at an elevated risk, and he literally burned his vacation when things were really bad here because he was afraid of killing her (or dying himself). His workload went WAY up because of all of the increased packages, so his days were (and still are) longer and harder than usual. Not only can he not quit for financial reasons, but if he quits being a mailman what other job options does he have? UPS and FedEx, which present the same problem as USPS.

               My aunt works in food service. She was semi-retired, but had to stop working because my uncle is extremely high risk. She was planning on fully retiring shortly, but the extra 6 months of work would have made a difference for them. If she had kept working and been exposed to COVID, she literally would have killed her husband. She was only able to quit though, because she was only a few months away from retirement. Had they been a few years younger, she would have had to keep working and totally isolate from her husband.

               Not to mention the medical staff who aren’t regularly exposed to infectious disease, never expected to be, and were suddenly treating COVID patients. And those who work elsewhere in hospitals. And all of the other many, many frontline workers who never had the option to stay home and isolate (many of whom are not high earners and for them not working is never an option…. though even for the high earners who can afford to not work for a year mid-career).

               Society relies on all of us playing our part. The essential workers have done that a thousand times over. For others, for a long time, playing your part was staying home (and it still is), but there are occasions when you need to take a risk to play your part, like serving on a jury.

            4. Yes – everyone should stay home as much as possible and limit unnecessary risk for non-essential activities. HOWEVER, for that person who is sitting in jail waiting for their trial, and for their family, the trial is essential.

               Just because something isn’t essential for you, doesn’t mean its not essential.

            5. @ anon at 11:18 – agreed! The number of people (who aren’t high risk) who are like I can’t possibly leave my house it’s so dangerous out there but yet do grocery delivery (thus endangering someone else on their behalf) drive me nuts!

         3. And I get frustrated with the attitude that because some people are taking risks that we should all start taking needless risks to make things fair. How does it benefit ANYONE, including the people in essential jobs, to pack crowded courtrooms or fill offices? We need to have serious discussions about safe alternatives and the measures that are being taken to protect jurors as well as the judges, building staff, bailiffs, etc. None of this information is posted on the website for my region’s court system.

            1. +1

            2. I mean, yes, but the issue is that on this board, there are a lot of posters who view EVERYTHING as a risk, even things where there’s no scientific or logical reason to be all that concerned. I’m not saying everyone should go party, but when posters are saying jury duty would endanger their lives so they wouldn’t do it, or they would and just vote for whatever to get out quicker, that’s a problem.

         4. Everyone should be forced into dangerous situations equally? Wow, how about no one should be forced into dangerous situations.

         5. This is why I’m actually a huge proponent of national service requirements. No one is above doing their part in keeping society functioning. Normalizing public service would be awesome, and having everyone used to play their part would be helpful in times like this.

            1. +1 to this, the selfishness on this post is somewhat horrifying

            2. If you want everyone to participate, then the expectations should be more inclusive from the start.

         6. Thank you!

         7. The point is that we shouldn’t be creating unnecessary risk. If we banned in-person shopping and restricted store occupancy to employees pulling groceries for pickup with proper PPE, both shoppers and employees would be safer. In-person court proceedings are absolutely an unnecessary risk for everyone concerned.

            1. Erm, anon at 12:59, in person court proceedings are a Constitutionally-protected right in the United States. They’re not unnecessary.

            2. I’m a little disturbed that you think a constitutionally afforded right is not essential. I hope to never need that constitutional right but I think we all have to take on some risk to protect that right. The thought of the government being able to take that away is terrifying to me. This is far more essential than a grocery store in my view.

            3. Where in the constitution does it say that you have a right to be in the same room as the jury? I think you could argue for an expanded definition of “confrontation.”

            4. “In-person court proceedings are absolutely an unnecessary risk for everyone concerned.”

               This is just not true. If it’s a criminal proceeding, you’re dealing with someone’s constitutional rights and freedom. I am a civil trial lawyer and don’t do criminal work, but I would be very, very concerned with having a jury of people responsible for determining whether I will be convicted of a crime and go to jail in a remote location with all of the unknowns and lack of control that would entail. From a human psychology perspective alone, the idea of a jury convicting someone of a crime remotely sends chills down my spine. We talk about how hard it is to focus on zoom for kids and work meetings all the time — some how jurors are going to magically be able to overcome these deficits?

            5. If you are accused of a crime, by all means chose to have your trial via zoom. I would not choose that option nor would I advise anyone who I wouldn’t want to go to be convicted to do so

   3. My husband has been called for Election Day (which seems like it shouldn’t happen). I get why you are nervous. Cases have just started to spike in our area after months of stable or declining cases and we are concerned. We’ve had two scares (one my husband spiking a high fever without explanation and once the nanny) since lockdown started despite being quite vigilant ourselves (no socializing outside of us and the nanny except for 2 visits by family with quarantining and testing before and after, no restaurants, no grocery stores, no playgrounds unless we are the only ones there). It is hard because when it happens it causes us to lose childcare while we quarantine / await test results and my job just doesn’t care that I’m looking after a toddler with no childcare. But jury service is a tremendously important function of our democracy so my husband will likely just quarantine from us and the nanny while its going on until his service is over and then 3 days to test and 1-2 days to get results. It is far from ideal but is manageable.

      1. Right? Court staff works daily. Ditto jail staff. If you get arrested, you need to get bail set, possibly appeal bail, demand to be indicted, demand to be tried in a speedy manner, etc. Victims also need assurance that the justice system is working and not just letting people out b/c Oh, Well, Pandemic.

   4. I wish there were a way for juries to call up the people who act like there’s no pandemic anyway. What difference does it make to them?

      I am high risk and my husband has been called to jury duty next month. If he is required to appear, he will wear an N 95 mask.

      1. You really want the no masters in a jury??? I wouldn’t. So much for a fair trial

         1. *no maskers

         2. No, more like the highly educated Biden voters I know who are doing trips “but it’s safe” and seeing friend groups “but it’s a bubble” and going to the gym again “but it’s distanced.”

            1. Just stop. We know how yall feel in this and no need to hijack every thread with suffer Olympics. And before you attack me, I’ve not gone on a trip, formed a bubble, or gone to the gym since February

            2. It’s not just one person and her comment was relevant to the discussion. You need to stop taking posts so personally.

         3. I would not put someone on my jury who cannot follow basic rules. How can you expect them to follow the judge’s instructions?!

            1. Haha. Anyone who’s ever worked with the public news there’s lots of undesirables out there and on juries.

            2. HAHAHA – they couldn’t follow the instructions long before COVID.

            3. Anon at 11:08, I was preemptively defensive because I’ve pushed back on suffer Olympics before and gotten the accusation that I was a risk taker who was endangering the high risk. So yes, I was preemptively taking it personal because if I hadn’t, it would have become personal based on my past experiences with this board.

            4. Juries are full of people who cannot follow basic rules, this is actually an excellent example as to why zoom juries cannot be a thing and give defendants a fair trial.

            5. If juries are full of people who cannot follow rules, then the jury selection process is badly flawed.

            6. The world is full of people who cannot follow the rules. I don’t know what magical universe you think we live in where a jury of your peers is made up only of people who are capable of being attentive during zoom proceedings, nor should we limit the jury pool to such people, that’s a pretty classist suggestion

      2. I’ve actually read that that’s a problem in some situations. The people who are willing to show up for jury duty in present times are disproportionately young, white, male Trump voters who aren’t concerned about the pandemic. Defense attorneys don’t exactly want that jury pool.

         I personally could not do my job as a juror currently. I wouldn’t deliberate; I’d agree to anything to get myself our of the jury room to someplace safe, and would deeply resent the person who insisted on a jury trial.

         1. This. I could not make an ubiased decision while fearing for my life and my family’s lives.

            1. Oh stop being so darn dramatic. Statistically, you are not going to die of COVID even if you get it. Your children also are not.

            2. Who do you think all the dead people are exactly? Not beloved family members? Are you even aware of how many people have died?

            3. That was in response to the callous Anon at 11:04, btw, not the post at 10:36.

            4. You must not drive a car, ride in a car, or allow any of your family members to ride in cars either then, yes?

            5. I am a lot more afraid of becoming a COVID long-hauler than of dying. Sorry, I am not interested in taking the risk of becoming permanently disabled just because a bunch of old white men think that you can’t hold trials over videoconference. Yes, I have watched remote court proceedings. No, it’s not ideal. But it’s a heck of a lot better than exposing dozens of people to COVID.

            6. Why is it old white men making these decisions? Where I live, we are run by Dems and very diverse, and they are the ones making the decisions to start back trials. Your accusation makes no sense.

            7. This is why as a plaintiff’s civil attorney, I am in no rush to resume jury trials. I absolutely think it will be held against my client. I also can’t force a bench trial without the defense agreeing and I doubt the jury will be blaming the defendant for being there.

         2. Wait, you would find someone guilty in a criminal trial, who you believed to be innocent, solely to finish your service as a juror faster? What if that person was facing life in prison, or worse, the death penalty? Even in a non-criminal matter, you would be willing to unlawfully impose financial liability on a person that you did not believe to be liable? I’m sorry, but… yikes.

            1. Exactly. There are too many (or maybe just abnormally vocal) people on this board for whom fear of COVID overrides literally EVERY other consideration ever. SMH.

            2. These people think they’re more important than anyone else. *They* shouldn’t have to risk getting COVID, but the people who deliver their groceries to their doors should. Same with their doctors. The privilege and selfishness and lack of self awareness is astonishing.

            3. I truly don’t understand your position. You think that cautious people are being crazy, but what’s your alternative? Are you saying to pack the courthouse just like before? Are you saying we should all stop teleworking and crowd the subway in the name of equality? Literally what is your position because I don’t get it.

            4. No one is saying being cautious is crazy. But if you are required to sit on a jury, and you’re saying you would do anything to get through it faster — including finding an innocent person guilty, who had no say in the decision to hold jury trials in the first place — people are going to think that you’re being unfathomably selfish. If you were being rushed to the hospital in a car, do you think it’s okay to run over pedestrians to get there faster? Because this does not seem much different to me.

            5. Agree with Anon at 11:28. Can you elaborate? This isn’t making sense.

            6. I mean, just give them your selfish insane spiel in voir dire and youre out of the pool princess. I’m glad the folks I know actually got covid ( a homicide detective, a doctor, and a firefighter ) cared about society just a touch more than you.

            7. Goodness gracious, some of you are angry people. Chill out.

   5. Chicago area. I had a brain hemorrhage in my 20s and am at high stroke risk as a COVID complication as a result. I was supposed to start next week but submitted a note from my doctor—and got a delay until March but no dismissal. (My husband is on immune suppressants for a chronic health condition and has even more risk factors than me—but the jury system hasn’t adapted post-COVID to recognize risk to household and only asks if the individual summoned has a health condition.)

      The sum total of COVID efforts described in my paperwork were a parking garage being available (I don’t know of it covered cost—which is usually $50 a day) so folks don’t have to use public transit and being told if we don’t arrive with a mask one will be given to us. That’s it in details.

      I’m sorry, but I just don’t see how it is fair to put people in a life and death situation during this global pandemic this way. I can’t control the HVAC situation. I can’t control how near or far someone is from me. And the 2 hour one-way commute for me means I’ll certainly need to share a bathroom (size of room? hand driers? Metered access?)

      Yes, people have rights to trial. But if I were in a work situation and felt unsafe, I could leave.This just isn’t fair to force on people this way.

      I have no problem whatsoever being a juror. But not this way. If I become disabled, who is going to help me?

      Folks need to adapt to the times. Maybe you’re holding things in a more remote well-spaced area like a theater? Maybe the selection part is done remote at the least. Maybe at the least you give people high-quality PPE. I’m sorry, but jurors also should have rights in this.

      Someone’s right to trial shouldn’t get to supersede others safety this way. We need something better.

      1. I agree. It’s not that we’re saying that we don’t want to serve, but we need alternatives. A few ideas off the top of my head, building on yours: hold juror selection in a huge room with masks and windows opened, ask for juror volunteers and consider providing incentives, provide significant PPE for all at the door, set new standards for dropping misdemeanor charges so there are fewer trials, do voir dire over Zoom…

         1. Those things are happening. You might not know it, but my jurisdiction and many others are doing everything you mentioned. It’s a great example of doing things safely. And yes, plenty of people on this board are saying they don’t want to serve, including one person who would actually render any verdict solely to get done faster.

            1. The problem is though that there is no assurance that it is being done this way, and you make the assumption it is being done this way across-the-board. Before I risk permanent disability, it sure would be great to at the very least have access to an N-95 mask and I don’t. Or, heck, this is probably dreaming, but testing before everyone gathers together indoors.

            2. There are tons of people in this thread, representing many jurisdictions, who tell you that they are an employee of their local jurisdiction’s court system and that precautions are being taken exactly of the manner you describe. I’ll add my voice as one more. Things are fine and you need to come in and serve. You will see the precautions that your local jurisdiction has taken, and if it turns out they are spritzing everyone with eau de Covid as they walk into the building like you fear, then you can leave then. But jury duty is your civic duty, period. And if you are not an essential worker who has been doing this in person for months already in some way – in a court, or a jail, or a hospital!, or a pharmacy, or a grocery store – then you are already in a place of enormous privilege relative to your fellow citizens and this pandemic.

            3. Our local officials are telling us “everything is fine” and that we should be out and about without masks, at the same time as they are failing to notify parents whose children have been exposed to COVID in the classroom at school. So no, I am not going to take your word that “everything is fine” and I should feel safe showing up to court. And I seriously doubt that I am going to be allowed to walk out when the judge orders me to remove my mask so the defendant can see my face.

      2. What are you complaining about? You were excused!

         1. Just because I’m deferred (not excused) doesn’t mean I also don’t care about everybody else who is being put face to face indoors in courtrooms. Geesh.

            1. But apparently don’t care about defendants not getting their right to trial by jury?

   6. In my area (SEUS)– federal jury trials have started but state level trials have not. My firm handled a jury trial. There is not a guarantee everyone will be masked. In my area, a lot of precautions were in place like screening every day and lots of distance in the courtroom, but jurors and attorneys were not supposed to wear masks during the trial so that everyone could see each other’s facial expressions. The setup was blessed by a physician involved in the public health response locally who was comfortable enough with the distancing involved that he did not believe masks were necessary. (And we have a county-wide mask ordinance.)

      That being said– jurors were excused from jury duty for any COVID-related reason. This included anyone who felt uncomfortable, anyone dealing with virtual school, etc. My understanding is they did not press the jurors too hard to justify themselves. We actually ended up with an all-female jury of all different ages and (seemingly) political backgrounds.

      1. with the new guidance the CDC released yesterday i dont see how anyone could possibly bless no masks. can people at least wear face shields?

         1. Face shields are not effective when not combined with masks.

         2. Yeah that’s total bs. This is exactly why we need to use our own critical thinking skills and not listen to “experts” who deviate from all published evidence. I would absolutely refuse to take off my mask.

            1. The federal court house near me has only done a criminal jury trial and they provided everyone with masks with a plastic window so mouths could be seen.

            2. I am not wearing any mask provided or required by the court. I will provide my own mask that actually protects me, thank you very much.

            3. @ 1:48 – the court provided masks are actually medical grade and much higher quality than what I can get online or in stores around here. Federal court has the PPE hookup here.

      2. They prohibited jurors from wearing masks?!?

         1. Let me clarify– jurors were strongly encourage from not wearing masks, not banned. However, no jurors wore them during the trial. They wore them once they got up.

            1. “Strongly encouraged” means that the judge intimidated the jurors into complying with his/her wishes.

      3. In this court, no. There were no masks or face shields. A federal judge really does have complete independence from public health orders and local government, etc.

         The military has also started trials back in my area using the same guidelines. Supposedly recent data has shown that distancing is more effective than plexiglass barriers, etc.

      4. This is crazy pants. Do they also ban women in niqabs from serving on juries or being attorneys? If seeing faces is an issue, they can just supply the ones with the fabric top and bottom and the clear piece in the middle. The Clearmask brand one is even FDA approved.

   7. I had jury duty a few weeks ago, for my county. In my state, they are calling smaller groups of jurors, and our holding room was clearly set up to allow social distancing. We also all had to wear masks the entire time. The case we were called in for wound up settling so we never went into the courtroom so I can’t speak to that setup.

      1. As a non-lawyer who has no interaction with the court system, can someone please explain why trials couldn’t be done via Zoom or similar? What’s the big deal? Is this a power play for judges or something?

         1. It’s because judges are old lawyers, and old lawyers don’t believe a person is working unless they are in the same room, or that they can judge a person’s credibility without seeing them in person unmasked. Same reason that law firms are pressuring people to come back into the office.

            1. Nooo it’s because the first zoom trial, a juror got up and left in the middle of it. It’s hard enough to get jurors to care in person, but they just won’t sit in front of a computer all day.

            2. And no one dares tell these folks that they are routinely behind the times? When the rest of the professional white-collar world has morphed to casual clothing and Zoom meetings wherever practical, no one has thought to clue these old lawyers into things?

            3. That wasn’t a real trial.

            4. I’m on a committee working to restart jury trials in my state and I’m suggesting the attorneys, litigants and witnesses remote in, the jury be spread out through multiple courtrooms, watching via Zoom or Webex. Court officers will be present to make sure jurors are following the rules. This allows there to be significantly less people in the court room, allow the jury to be thoroughly spaced, and make sure they pay attention, aren’t on their phones, etc.

            5. Lauren, most judges do not take kindly to people’s telling them anything. They are used to being in charge of everything. They get to decide what evidence gets in and who is an expert. They don’t like us science-y people coming in and presenting them with our facts and figures. These are the same people who say “I know my program is effective just by looking at the people in front of me. I don’t need your fancy evaluation to tell me that. [or, Your fancy evaluation must be wrong because it conflicts with what I already ‘know.’]”

            6. This is so backwards. The attorneys, plaintiff, and experts chose to be there. The defendant, witnesses, and jury did not. The jury should not be forced to come in to the courthouse while the parties and attorneys get to participate from the safety of their homes and offices.

         2. There’s a constitutional right to confront the witnesses against you. For starters.

            1. What’s the difference between confronting them over a screen and in person? You look them in the eye either way.

         3. It’s not a power play, it’s a logistics issue. For civil matters, yes, things are being handled via Zoom (especially the bench trials) and some courts already had telephonic hearings. Jury trials are a whole different bundle of wax and I think they’ve only had one in Washington State. Add to that that many courts are already incredibly backlogged, and the delays as courts figured out PPE, best practices, etc. is that now courts are REALLY behind. There’s an old saying that “justice delayed is justice denied.” For criminal matters, this is a really big deal. A lot of posters (not necessarily you, LaurenB) have never had any interactions with the criminal justice system and it shows…

         4. Many reasons, some of which have been stated here. But another is that limiting jury service to people with computers, the ability to handle Zoom/WebEx, and an internet connection that allows for video results in a jury pool that it, by definition, not representative. Especially for criminal cases, that is an appeal waiting to happen.

            And that is aside from the difficulty of exhibits, interpreters, making sure the jurors are not on their phones the whole time or falling asleep (which happens during in-person trials all the time). A lot of jurisdictions are trying but it is a lot harder than I think many people on this board recognize.

   8. There is no need for in-person court proceedings. Many courts have been doing first appearances in criminal cases via video link to the jail for years.

      1. That is BS. There is no need for EVERY court proceeding to be in person, that I will grant you. First appearances in court on criminal matters are not the same as jury trials.
         And those prisoners have access to video links precisely because they are in jail and rely on the prisons’ and courts’ investment in technology. What about people who need to access the justice system, or need to perform their civic duty, but don’t have access to the technology to make it possible in a fair and equitable way? Look, it might be hard to imagine for many people on this board, but there are plenty of people who don’t have computers at home, don’t have reliable internet, and/or don’t have an unlimited data plan on their cell phone, nevermind a reliable private place to set up their technology and participate.
         I have tried civil jury trials and was a juror on a criminal jury trial. There is simply no substitute for in-person proceedings in jury trials for a host of reasons.

         1. Also– your point about access to computers is absolutely correct. Most courts in our area have been hesitant to do zoom hearings for probate hearings where family is involved unless they can confirm family doesn’t want to participate or is able to participate via zoom/phone.

      2. This is not true. There are very serious confrontation clause issues with having criminal trials done virtually.

      3. Ok but you can’t expect every juror or witness to have access to a computer and the internet.

   9. What the “just do it” posters are failing to recognize is that for many adult professionals from sheltered backgrounds, jury service can be incredibly stressful and frightening even absent a pandemic. You have to take off of work, maybe find supplemental child care, and drive downtown (a place that many people avoid because of traffic and terrible street layouts). You have to find a place to park, which can be incredibly difficult. Then you have to go into a courthouse, get through security without the special privilege afforded by a bar card, be exposed to people that you don’t normally encounter in everyday life, and answer a bunch of personal questions while being told you will be guilty of perjury if you make a mistake. Now you want them to expose themselves to COVID on top of all that? And your answer is that they should just $uck it up and check their privilege? That’s not going to make them any more willing.

      I work in the courts and spend a lot of time in courtrooms. People like me tend to forget that jurors and the general public are people too, with a much different perspective and actual rights.

      1. Ha ha ha ha ha, Anon at 1:16, my bar card gets me special privilege at security at the courthouse? That’s great, I’m so glad you cleared that up for me.

         1. I have been in courthouses in at least half of the states. I have never been anywhere where lawyers did not get treated better than the general public.

      2. Thank you for this. My mom gets so stressed whenever she is called for jury duty. She hates driving and gets huge anxiety driving downtown. She gets anxiety finding parking. She gets anxiety dealing with the pomp and circumstance. Yes, my mom should treat her anxiety but she’s now 70 and not going to change. I highly doubt she’s the only one.

      3. Thank you for understanding and articulating this.

      4. I get this and agree (I also don’t look forward to jury duty!) but as stressful and frightening as jury duty is, imagine how much more stressful it would be to be innocent but accused of a crime and being told you can’t have a constitutionally afforded right because welp pandemic, enjoy jail

         1. If I were a criminal defendant, I wouldn’t want frightened jurors in the courtroom, and I wouldn’t want to be in the courtroom either if I were out on pretrial release. I’d want the whole thing done over video.

      5. Thank you for your empathy for anxious people. It’s appreciated.

   10. We have completely redone our courtrooms to allow maximum distance between jurors. Jurors sit in the audience 12 feet apart from each other with masks. Large screens are used so that the jurors can witness testimony while maintaining distance. Deliberations are held in the large courtroom so everyone is appropriately distanced. Plexiglass has been installed. Questionnaires and temperature checks are used to ensure everyone is healthy. The courts I am familiar with are employing all precautions.

       1. Employing all precautions would be holding remote proceedings.

          1. Except that doesn’t satisfy the constitutional requirement…

             1. Show me the case law.

             2. You are saying the confrontation clause applies to the jury?

             3. Show me any case law showing any precedent for not having in person juries!

   11. What’s really funny about all of this is that the people who insist that things (courts, schools, etc.) must open in person, infringing upon others’ rights not to be exposed to illness, are generally the same people who refuse to wear masks because “muh rights!”

       I work in criminal justice. I understand the confrontation clause, fair cross-section, and access to justice concerns. I still don’t think these have to trump safety. We can and should be trying to find a way, rather than just demanding that people come back to court with the ineffective safety measures described here (lots of people in the same room for long periods of time even if distanced, possibly ordered to remove their masks).

       1. To your first paragraph, not sure where you’re getting this from. Plenty of people on this post are pro opening things but only doing so if people are wearing masks.

          To your second paragraph, I agree we should look to alternatives but the answer cannot be fully remote. Plenty of “essential” workers are at work now with far less protections than are listed here and their jobs are far less essential than providing for fair trials.

          1. Essential workers may not have 100% freedom of choice, but they are not compelled by law to work in those jobs. Jurors are required by law to appear. That is the difference.

          2. In my state, the people who are agitating for a full reopening are absolutely the same ones refusing to wear masks, like the head of our school board.

             1. Ok but that’s not really on topic when you’re posting on a thread where literally no one advocating for in person trials is suggesting no masks.

2. This dress is totally my style. Has anyone ever purchased from Mango? I’m curious on the quality and sizing.

   1. It may have been jacket-specific, but I am very narrow-shouldered and it is the only brand I’ve ever tried where I felt that I might Incredible Hulk out of my jacket in the shoulders. But in this dress I don’t think it would be a problem.

      1. Totally agree with this comment. I also have very narrow shoulders and Mango works well for me but I can’t imagine it working well for most people because of that. The sizing is very European, like Zara and H&M, built for a smaller frame.

         Quality is a mixed bag. I LOVE their wool coats (but only buy them on sale).

         1. Genuinely curious as to why Americans would have bigger frames than Europeans? (Not a weight question, a skeleton question)

            1. I don’t know, but I do know that a lot of European brands such as Boss and Reiss are way to narrow in the shoulders and way to wide in the waist for me, whereas the Scandi brands usually has a better fit (and don’t get me started on Italian pants).

            2. I guess I don’t know why, but this is visibly the case when traveling.

   2. Mango is kind of similar to H&M/Zara in sizing (runs small) and quality is somewhat similar. I used to wear a lot of Mango when I was in my 20’s – I think they shut most of their own US stores and were selling in JC Penney for a while and maybe have switched to Macy’s.

      1. If that’s the case, I’d definitely be worried about buying a modal dress. Modal is such a soft fabric and pills really easily.

         1. Good info. I’ll pass on this. Thanks everyone.

   3. Not recently, but I have a leather jacket from them from 2003 (purchased in Europe) that I still get compliments on! Sizing ran small back then.

   4. In my experience, Mango has typical Spanish/Italian Brand silhouette – narrow shoulders, narrow arms/legs, wider waist. More like Spanish Zara than H&M (which is Swedish and has Scandi shapes in the non youth sections).

      Mango is hit and miss on quality, can be poly tat and can be lovely.

3. Elizabeth, you should point out the Lauren dress on Zappos that has a high neckline which is great for full figured women like me who do NOT like it when men like to peek in. I am going to show this dress to my boss to see if the firm will reimburse me for this one! It’s also free shipping so we cant loose!

4. I’ve had my IUD for a few months now and still a lot of spotting. Do I stick with it or give up at this point? It is not on any sort of schedule and happens all month intermittently, so it is a real pain.

   1. I tried for almost two years and the spotting never went away. I think (hope) I’m an outlier though!

      1. Anecdata, but I was the same! Never stopped spotting.

   2. My copper IUD took about a year to normalize. And now it’s fine.

      1. Did it get better over time?

         1. I think so. It was really bad the first 2-3 months but then gradually got better. I really like the idea of having 10 year birth control so I was willing to stick it out for a bit.

      2. Side note: The copper IUDs are fundamentally different than the others. Copper IUDs typically cause heavier periods but should not cause prolonged intermitant spotting the way hormonal IUDs often do.

         To the OP: Talk to your doctor. As anecdata: my friends who have gotten fed up with the spotting gave it more time but nothing resolved. Those who had short issues with spotting (less than a couple of months) love it.

   3. Do you have the correct IUD for your weight/child birthing status? My OBGYN said that constant spotting is often because the IUD is the incorrect size and amount of hormones.

   4. Copper or hormonal?

      I’d probably wait 6 months, but my hormonal IUD never settled and I had to get it removed.

   5. Which type of IUD? Actually it doesn’t really matter to my recommendation, I would stick with it for at least a year to let it normalize. I had more spotting with Mirena, eventually turning into no periods though. I switched to the copper IUD primarily to eliminate hormones and see if it would help my acne (it did not help, btw). My copper IUD normalized more quickly to normal periods that feel heavier than before but are consistent.

      1. Counter anecdata: switching to the copper IUD did correct my acne for years. I think the most-recent bout is some combo of hormones changing over the years and stress.

   6. They say it can take 6 months for spotting to go away but I spotted for more than a year before finally getting rid of it. I was not a fan of mine.

   7. I had a Mirena for five years – I spotted for 6-8ish months and then had the most glorious 4+ years of no periods (and no babies)

      1. +1 exactly this

      2. +1 love the Mirena

   8. I gave up after about 5 months.

   9. I have a hormonal IUD (Mirena), spotted for 3-4 months, then my period went away for a year, now it’s back but ~predictable and very, very light. Worth it!

      1. This has been my experience with both Mirenas I’ve had. – spotting and the odd pinch for about 5 months, zero periods for 2-3 years, and then incredibly light periods for the last couple years.

   10. Tagging onto this thread, as I’m seriously considering a hormonal IUD: When all of you say “spotting” for a few months, are we talking like something that can be handled with a liner? Or enough that you would use a tampon/cup?

       (I’ve been on BCP for 20 years, but would love something with higher efficacy and less annoyance. I’m a bit concerned about side effects switching to a slightly different hormone, but I think it’s basically the same hormone so probably low risk.)

       1. I bled enough to need a pad for the 3 days after my first insertion, then liner-level spotting off and on after that. For the second one, there was barely any bleeding or spotting (I guess b/c I’d already had one in there doing its thing). The periods I have now are handled with a liner.

          1. Yeah, it can be handled by a liner. My biggest problem is that it is like every two or three days, so I don’t want to wear liners all the time given that sometimes I don’t need them. And it is totally unpredictable.

       2. For me I needed a liner almost all the time and a tampon a day or so per week for the first 8 months, and then a liner almost all the time until I got the thing removed at just over a year. I was really not interested in having to use even a liner constantly.

       3. As an alternate viewpoint- I don’t remember any significant spotting after getting the Mirena. I had one or two periods, which were very light, after insertion. I’ve had it for 2-3 years now, with no periods, just extremely light spotting on rare occasions. I got the mirena at 41 or 42 after two kids and my GYN suggested that hormonal birth control was contraindicated at my age since I occasionally get migraines with aura. It was also a relief not to have to remember to take my hormonal birth control, which got harder to do post-kids. I never had much in the way of side effects from hormonal birth control, FWIW.

       4. Liner or even just dark-colored underwear (forgive me, I know some people will find this awfully gross, but it was unpredictable and liners get uncomfortable too)

   11. I had the Skyla(?) for 18 months – the spotting never stopped, so I had it removed. Now I have the 3 month pill and it’s incredible. 4 periods a year and absolutely nothing in between. Love it.

5. Are there really still undecided voters at this point? Or is more people who are more deciding whether or not to bother voting?

   1. For very top of the ticket, probably not. I don’t think the same can be said for all state and local elections.

   2. I don’t think people are undecided for Biden vs Trump, but maybe between one of them and Jorgenson or another third party

      1. Jorgensen is not a thing

         1. Ok, but people are still going to vote for her.

      2. She absolutely is a thing for Trump voters that want to vote but refuse to vote for Biden and don’t really want to vote for Trump.

         1. Any vote that isn’t a vote for Biden is a vote for Trump.

            1. Anon at 9:29 here – As a Biden voter, we all know that. However, there’s a lot of people who don’t see it that way. Do you know how many times I’ve told my mother that a vote for anyone but Biden is a vote for Trump? Several. Do you know how much she cares? Not at all.

               There’s a lot of people who are secretly OK with Trump but won’t admit it outloud, so they vote Jorgensen. There are card carrying Libertarians so always vote Libertarian. There are people who refuse to not vote but honestly hate both candidates and (inexplicably) don’t understand the concept that A) one is way worse than the other and B) voting for the least bad of bad choices is valid, you don’t have to love who you vote for.

               I’m in no way defending voting for anyone besides Biden, but a lot of people have their “reasons”

            2. For what it’s worth, this is apparently what Trump fans are saying Republicans/Independents consider voting for a 3rd party…”Any vote that isn’t for Trump is a vote for Biden.” I commented below, but the friend I mentioned said her pro-Trump parents are using that line on her.

            3. Yes, we all know that but the original question was are there undecided voters and there are plenty of people who are undecided on Trump v. third party candidate

      3. This is Anon at 9:29 – as much as I wish Jorgensen wasn’t a thing, I do know four people who are planning on voting for her/already voted for her. In PA…

         I’d love to live in my liberal bubble, but that’s not realistic.

         1. I’m in a very liberal county in a red-turning-blue-if-enough-people-turn-out state. Scratch that–I’m in Austin, Texas. I know two people (plus one likely SO of one of those) who voted but skipped the top of the ticket, one who will vote for Jorgensen, and two who probably won’t vote at all, partly (but not entirely) because it’s just too fraught for them to face (lame, but I can’t force them–I might if I could!).

   3. Even with the increased access to voting and greater enthusiasm, experts are predicting a 60% turnout, which is five percentage points over 2016. So there is a baffling number of people who either don’t see a way to vote, or don’t see a point.
      Meanwhile, 44M people have voted, and we might exceed the early voting level from 2016 today.

      1. I don’t think it’s baffling. Have you seen the line ups? I can’t imagine living in the US and having to line up for hours to vote. Plenty of people can’t to that whether for work or childcare reasons.

         I’ve voted in every Canadian election, federal, provincial and municipal in the three different provinces I’ve lived in and I’ve never had to wait more than 20 minutes. Usually significantly less for early voting. My DH is European – has lived in two different European countries before Canada and never saw anything like that either. It’s astounding that people think it’s a normal democratic situation to line up for hours to vote.

         1. America loves its voter suppression!

            1. There is no reason to wait for hours in my major city in the south. We have three weeks of early voting. I am just not buying this narrative. People waited a long time on the first day, but duh.

            2. Why, “but duh” for the first day? There are tons of stories of people in numerous states waiting 1 to 10 hours to vote.

            3. I live in ATL in a precinct that was all over the news for crazy long lines during the primary this summer. I was unable to vote due to being 9 months pregnant and unable to stand in 90 degree heat for 5-6 hours. Totally different story for the general election – other than the first two days of early voting, lines have been almost nonexistent. I was able to early vote in 10 minutes a few days ago. And my county has an awesome tool that gives real-time wait times for all early voting locations (they opened additional ones too, and expanded the early voting period). I expect turnout to be sky-high when all votes are cast and it’s going to be fascinating to see how that changes not only GA’s presidential results, but also the down ballot races.

            4. Your city in the North is not actually every city in the US, Anon at 10:24 But duh.

            5. I live in Fairfax Cty, VA, and we have had early voting open for about a month. There have been hours-long lines every single day since they opened the polls.

            6. All I can think of when I see those lines is where do they go to the bathroom? Hopefully you can have someone hold your place in line while you run to the bathroom and back!

         2. I’m Canadian and I remember one federal election where I had to line up for a long time because it was election night, after work, and the polling volunteers were completely useless. After that I started voting early always and it’s so easy and great.

         3. I’ve never seen a line in very densely populated NYC, and I’ve voted in every election since I was eligible, in several different neighborhoods. Pre-pandemic, we didn’t have early voting and you needed a reason to vote by mail. So it’s totally possible to have no lines — but some states want to suppress turnout so don’t have sufficient locations/staffing in certain neighborhoods.

            1. Wisconsin, Georgia and Pennsylvania have all had super long lines this week. And that’s in addition to the situations in Texas and California around ballot box accessibility.

            2. I’ve done voter protection in NYC and disagree that there are never lines. Plenty of polling places I’ve made the rounds to have lines. They aren’t hours long but there are certainly lines at some NYC voting locations.

            3. More anecdata: just drove by the downtown early-voting site in Indianapolis and the line was long and wasn’t moving. I’d guess it was at least two hours.

            4. I very distinctly remember waiting in line to vote at the municipal building in Brooklyn in 2008. I was annoyed at a guy in full head to toe Republican garb and I felt like almost everyone else was excited to vote for Obama.

               And I’ll never forget the feeling when we got off of the subway from an election party in Manhattan that night. Brooklyn was celebrating and the energy was contagious and the future felt brighter than it had since September 10, 2001.

               Oh and now I live in a Republican ny suburb and I don’t have to wait to vote. They did scowl at me for being a registered dem when I voted in the primaries in 2016 though.

      2. I feel really dumb for saying this, but … we didn’t have the early voting in years past that we have had this year, obviously. But if the total turnout is predicted to be 60%, not that much higher than 2016 … were there lines out the door on election day 2016? I say that as someone who voted in person on election day 2016, by which I meant – got to my polling place at 6:30 am, the whole thing took less than 5 minutes. How could 55% of the electorate get “squeezed” into one day in Nov 2016? Forgive me if I’m missing something — feeling a little slow this morning.

         1. Wealthy areas tend to not have lines because there are adequate polling places and they generally are not the target of voter suppression. I would expect there to also be no lines at your polling place on Election Day this year but that’s not indicative of the country at large.

         2. Every state I have heard of has drastically reduced the number of polling places for Election Day. Even with less voters on election day, you end up with long lines when you have only half the number of locations as past years

         3. I waited in a massive line to vote in 2016 (Manhattan), first thing in the morning. Probably took an hour? And I’ve waited for other elections in Brooklyn since then. But nothing like Georgia.

         4. Nearly 21,000 election day polling places were eliminated for 2020 compared to 2016 (about 20%).

            https://www.vice.com/en/article/pkdenn/the-us-eliminated-nearly-21000-election-day-polling-locations-for-2020

      3. It’s pretty logical to think about why people don’t see a point to voting. Unless you live in a swing state, your individual vote really doesn’t matter on a federal or even really state level. And most people don’t care about local elections.

         I live in Chicago so I’ll use Illinois as an example. We are blue in every presidential election. Those who live in the middle of the state are die-hard red but it doesn’t matter, we will be blue. On a state level, we flip red vs blue but it doesn’t matter, the last 30 years of governors have been objectively awful regardless of party. The middle-Illinoisan has very little incentive to vote in this election, as it feels like it truly doesn’t matter at all on a federal or state level. Even those in Chicago feel like there’s very little reason to vote – we will be blue regardless, and we don’t have any major state elections, so why bother trying to take the time off work?

         I have to imagine there’s a non-small portion of other swing state voters with similar feelings.

         1. What’s the logical explanation of not caring about local elections though? Those often affect me pretty directly, and the candidates are often wildly different.

            1. When you live in an area where one party is super dominant, local elections other than primaries feel pointless. I live in one of the bluest districts in NYC, at least half the local races are Dems running unopposed, and none of them are even remotely competitive. I do vote (never for candidates running unopposed, on principle) but on some level the whole thing feels like a charade and I totally understand why people don’t bother.

            2. Keeping the Chicago example alive, the transplants who moved here and are in their 20s and rent and don’t have kids in a school system don’t care about the local elections.

            3. Okay, that makes perfect sense, that the primaries matter more when there’s only one party with a chance in the election.

         2. And yet I’m in suburban Chicago and waited 3 hours on the first day of early voting in my county, and there are still significant lines. So this year people do appear to want to vote.

   4. Of course. The election is still 10 days away. There is no requirement to decide X days in advance. It is still entirely possible that either candidate will say or do something brilliant or stupid. The NYT has an article today on President’s Trump potential narrow path to victory. It sounds like you almost begrudge people taking all the time available to make up their mind.

      I am not voting for Joe Biden and the Democrats, I am voting against President Trump because I believe he is incompetent. I approve of a number of things President Trump has done, and I whole heartily disapprove of much of what the liberal Democrats say and do. So, I guess my mind is reluctantly made up.

      1. thank you for voting against Trump. i think it is ok to vote for what in your mind feels like the ‘lesser of two evils’ if thats how you feel and i wish more people would think like you

         1. +1 million I try to tell SO many people that voting for the “lesser of two evils” is the choice to be made right now (unless you’re a Biden fan, which I am, I suppose, but not a strong one). I am so tired of getting caught up in the piddly little arguments about how Biden or Harris aren’t perfect. I know. We (lifelong Dems) know. It is what it is. He is worlds apart from our current incumbent. Unless you want to keep Trump in office, it only makes sense to vote Biden.

      2. I do begrudge people taking all the time available to make up their minds. These are some pretty stark choices — this isn’t picking vanilla vs chocolate ice cream. I think if you (not you specifically, generic you) are “undecided” at this stage in the game, you aren’t the brightest bulb in the chandelier.

         1. I agree that the decision is easy, but I was still filled with a sick feeling. Rationally, not voting for a bad candidate helps the worse candidate who is running against them. But emotionally, voting for a bad candidate makes me feel ill, like I’m participating in something against my values.

         2. I agree. If you’re honestly torn about whether Trump or Biden is the better candidate, you are not bright. I firmly believe that all conservatives should vote for Biden – at least if they care about things like steady leadership, family values, respect for the military, the sanctity of religion, everyone paying their fair share of taxes, and a lot of other issues where Trump has revealed himself to be a lying, self-serving hypocrite.

      3. What things has Trump done that you approve of? Twitter wars with celebrities? Throwing away the pandemic playbook and actively discouraging the wearing of masks? Not revealing his taxes (which everyone knew were going to show that he wasn’t the successful businessman people thought)? Sending Ivanka to represent him at the G20? Inciting violence and refusing to condemn the kidnapping plot against a governor? Tweets that are basically illiterate?

         1. It’s clear that you have a deep psychological need to look down upon others. Here’s just another excuse for it.

            1. Do you even realize how twisted and scary you are? You are literally obsessed with Lauren. For all I know, you’re sending her letters enclosing your fingernail clippings. Please seek help.

            2. Actually, Anonymous at 12:28 pm, I asked a serious question. The poster above said she was pleased with certain things Trump had done. I asked her for specifics on what those things are. Perhaps she’s pleased with all of the things I mentioned in my post.

            3. Anon @ 12:05 some people don’t see the pattern they’re stuck in even though it’s immediately apparent to everyone else. Shrug.

            4. This nested incorrectly, it was in response to Lauren begrudging others.

         2. Serious question, why are you voting against Trump? To be honest, other views you’ve espoused here align with the Trump voters in my life, and I would love any insight into changing their minds at least on this one topic.

            1. Are you the same Anonymous who accused me of “defending cronies who vote for Trump”? I’ve voted and supported Dem candidates for as long as I can remember. Be specific about what views I have allegedly espoused on here that align with Trump voters. Otherwise, I believe you may be confusing me with someone else.

            2. That isn’t true. I’m a daily reader and have never seen that. She’s an independent thinker, yes, but how do her repeated posts about how she is voting for Biden and why make you think she’s a Trump voter?

            3. They think they’re elite (justifiably privileged because white), they think pregnant woman aren’t “people”. They only care about further entrenching their privilege essentially.

            4. You appear to have a serious misunderstanding driving your posts. Lauren never said pregnant women aren’t people – she agreed (as did I on that same thread) that we prefer to say “pregnant women” instead of “pregnant people.” You know why? Because if men can get pregnant, then you can’t complain when men decide who gets abortions. It’s only fair for them to have a stake in it because they can get pregnant too, right?

            5. Obviously pregnancy is still a “my body, my choice” decision for people, both women & men.

         3. Peace deals in the Middle East
            Bringing the troops home and ending the wars started by previous Presidents
            Being the first President in decades to not start a war while in office
            Decimating ISIS
            Deregulation
            Judges
            Prison reform
            Human trafficking initiatives

            That’s all so much more important than twitter.

            1. Yeah, he didn’t do any of these things but enjoy your kool aid.

            2. Yes, please look into whether or not he actually did any of these things (spoiler: he did not). But we do know he’s a rapist, so there is that.

            3. Those are the responses of people who have no response and are shocked to find out that Donald Trump has actually been a really good President. And he’s not a rapist; we know this for a fact.

               Enjoy your Kool Aid and remember – Donald Trump did more in 44 months than Joe Biden did in 44 years!

      4. This is exactly how I feel. I support a lot of the Trump policies (paid family federal leave, some immigration crack down, Israel relations, some parts of the tax bill, the NLRB/EEOC makeup and decisions, support for law enforcement) but don’t like him personally. I also hate the “woke” Democratic Party. What they say and do is more off putting to me than Trump’s rants. So yea it took me and my family a while to decide how to vote because I don’t see it as voting for the person on top of the ticket but rather for the party that I most align with. And right now, that’s neither party.

   5. Anecdotal but…a friend from a super conservative family background just told me that she is going to let her parents down by NOT voting for Trump this time, as she cannot ethically support him again. Sadly, she did vote for him in 2016, but says that she regrets that choice. She said she hasn’t decided yet whether she will abstain from voting altogether or vote for an independent. I have been seeing small groups of people indoors (always 10 or less) and, as it so happened, there quite a few Democrats in the room who URGED her to reconsider Biden. Feeling hopeful.

      My fiance’s family tries to avoid voting/political discourse, with the exception of his mom, who has historically voted red but doesn’t like to talk about it. I knows she loves me, a woman of color who HATES Trump, and she has been very receptive to my pro-Biden, Democratic values. She’s expressed support on social media of my recent post about BLM, told me how cute she thought my new Biden sweatshirt is…I have a feeling she will either abstain from voting (which I would much prefer over a beloved in-law voting FOR Trump) or vote for Biden. Feeling even more hopeful about her!

   6. In this group? Absolutely not. But outside of the liberal, educated bubble of this group? Absolutely yes. There was a really good opinion piece about the real divide being between those who are super politically engaged vs those who are not (20% vs 80% of America). The issues sets were different, regardless of party.

      1. I often forget how much of a bubble this is – between saying Jorgensen is “not a thing” (let alone Trump) and suggestions that essential workers who don’t feel comfortable going into the workplace can “just quit” it’s mindboggling.

         1. Right?!?! My mom works in a nursing home and wanted to quit when the pandemic first started, but there is no way she can afford to. (Before you ask, she’s fine). But not everyone has the luxury of WFH and they just have to mitigate the risk as best they can and it’s up to the rest of us to also mitigate our risk to avoid transmission to the essential workers. But there’s no right one size fits all. But this board is extremely harsh to those with other experiences or opinions, I’ve sadly found.

         2. Such a bubble – my favorite are the people who suggest that people cut off anyone who votes for Trump or not for Biden as if that didn’t describe a huge portion of the population…

            1. Oh, don’t forget the poster from a few weeks back who said they could choose not to have a Trump supporting teacher supervise their child at daycare! I love parts of this board, and it’s an intentional bubble in some ways (professional women in one place!), but when it comes to politics and COVID, I’ve got to start just collapsing the threads. It just makes me angry at how privileged people are without knowing it.

            2. A huge portion of the population, and for many of us (unfortunately), beloved family members.

            3. But Anon at 12:34, you should have cut off those beloved family members years ago, according to many on this board! Don’t you know you’re a racist/sexist/misogynist/hate poor people/hate LGBT people/etc. if you maintain any relationship with anyone who didn’t vote for HRC and isn’t voting for Biden!
               /sarcasm

      2. To be fair, is there really such a thing as a “conservative, educated bubble”? There’s a difference between wealthy people who got there because of education and wealthy people who worked their way up but aren’t particularly educated. The former group tends to be liberal, the latter group tends to be conservative (the “Palm Beach Republicans” we’ve talked about before).

         1. (waves hand) umm I’m in this group, I’m a conservative who grew up in a solidly middle class family who is now a 1%. I say I’m a conservative and not a Republican intentionally because I don’t know what happened to the Republican party the past few years but in principle, I’m certainly much more conservative than liberal. I voted for Hilary and am voting for Joe as soon as early voting starts in my state but these were/are votes against Trump not votes for liberal policies. I have several educated friends in this bucket. None of us went to prep schools.

            1. YEah, me too. That is completely ridiculous. My husband and I are both professionals with advanced degrees who are Republicans, and I know lots of people like us.

            2. Do you believe that the Republican party as it stands today represents what you yourself stand for?

            3. Oh hi! We do exist on this board, I can’t believe it!

         2. Did you seriously just imply that Palm Beach Republicans and the ilk aren’t educated? Yes, there is an education gap in voting at the moment (it cut the opposite way in 2012), but you are LITERALLY exactly what we’re referencing here. You mock southerners, you imply that people that are Republicans are automatically less educated.

            LaurenB, you are the point of this conversation (well, you and your other ilk up above implying that their grocery drivers should have to leave their house, but normal citizens should just let those arrested sit in jail or not have to leave their house).

            And yes, there is such a thing as a conservative, educated bubble.

            1. I haven’t said boo about grocery delivery (I don’t personally use it; I prefer to leave grocery delivery spots open for those who are elderly, high-risk, etc). As a non-lawyer, I also am not weighing in on the trial issue other than asking why it can’t be done via zoom. Can you please be intellectually honest about my posts on this board and not make me your punching bag? Thanks.

         3. Yeah I have like 6 family members who are conservative who all went to Ivy League schools (and got in on merit, not family connections/money/anything like that). They’re all intelligent people and well-educated and are conservative (many of them are like Anon at 12:52 in that they’re not currently Republican (but were R until somewhat recently) and are still conservative).

         4. This question really shows how far in your bubble you are. There’s a TON of well educated, intelligent conservatives out there.

            1. Ah – ok – I’ll buy that there are well-educated intelligent conservatives out there. But “conservative” and “Trump supporters / voters” are two different things.

            2. But serious question, are they voting for Trump? I can 100% see why conservatives voted for Romney or McCain. I cannot see how conservatives vote for Trump. He’s literally barely able to get out a sentence and his policies lead to market turmoil and he’s just a horrible person you wouldn’t want to count as a friend. I’m really, honestly having trouble understanding if any educated conservatives are voting for Trump.

            3. I think one is, but the rest of the ones I know are not. That doesn’t mean that they’re voting for Biden, however.

         5. I’ll revise my previous statement. My personal observation is that the “conservative, educated bubble” are what I will call Lincoln-Project Republicans. They were Republicans in previous times and behind better candidates; they stand for science, separation of church and state, reason, and civility; but Trump is a bridge too far. Does that describe some of you on this board? In previous days we might have called them the old Northeast Republicans who were fiscally conservative but socially liberal.

            1. What on earth? What is your weird obsession with the Northeast?

            2. No. Still no.

            3. Look up Rockefeller Republicans on Wikipedia; that’s another name for the old Northeast Republicans. It’s a thing; I didn’t make it up.

            4. There are plenty of educated conservatives who are Trump voters. All it takes is believing that lower taxes, the stock market and unfettered business growth, sometimes combined with conservative social beliefs (anti-abortion, anti-LGBTQ), is more important than social equality, clean air and water, rule of law, human decency, and white supremacy. Plenty of people are against the latter, or completely indifferent (i.e. they’re white so racism just doesn’t matter to them). It’s nice to wish that being educated is an inoculation against nonsense and illogical thinking (see above list of purported “Trump accomplishments” that don’t stand up to a strand of scrutiny, but yet are bought into by educated people because they believe what they want to believe), but that simply isn’t the case.

               I’m in biglaw and know many Trump-supporting attorneys (= well-educated), and their spouses and children and parents are also likely Trump supporters. Did you see the recent report about biglaw attorney donations reported by FEC, broken down by firm? The majority in most or all firms were to Biden, but there was a not insubstantial portion to Trump in many top law firms (including Kirkland).

            5. By “white supremacy” of course I mean “being against white supremacy” or “not being racist.”

         6. Having worked my way up, it’s a great disappointment that many of the “well educated” are Trumpers. It’s worse than in the blue collar circles where you can at least imagine ignorance is an excuse.

         7. There are a lot of educated conservatives – I mean, hello, biglaw partnerships – but I do think there isn’t really an educated conservative bubble. I’ve met lots of well-educated high-income Dems who seem to inhabit a world comprised only of Democrats, but most high-income highly educated conservatives or Republicans that I know have social circles that are much more diverse in terms of political viewpoint. Which makes sense, given that unless they went to Wheaton College and then to Liberty University Law School, they probably had extensive exposure to liberal professors and fellow students during their education, and they are more likely to live in cities (which tend to be blue/purple environments even in red states).

            The conservatives I know that live in a conservative bubble tend to be older, lower-income and less educated, as well as rural.

            1. +1

            2. My wealthy, elderly relatives, some of them highly educated, absolutely live in a conservative bubble.

      3. Maybe my online bubble is just incredibly blue, but this is actually one of the more balanced sites I visit. I think the majority of posters are progressive, but I hear more conservative viewpoints here than other places. Maybe its the high income brackets, or the patriarchal culture of white collar jobs?

         I live in Texas, and work in engineering, so I do get plenty of conservative exposure in real life.

6. Has anyone had laser dentistry for cavities or to repair a tooth? Have you gone to Washington Institute for Dentistry and Laser Surgery or can you recommend another dentist who uses laser in the Northern VA, Maryland or DC area?

7. People were asking about warm pants to wear for outdoor dining, etc. since we’ll likely be doing more outdoor activities this winter. I just saw these pants and I think they might be just the thing! Not the most stylish, but fairly innocuous. I find it so hard to find anything fleece lined that aren’t tights/leggings…

   https://www.llbean.com/llb/shop/121637?page=primaloft-thermastretch-fleece-pant-straight-leg-misses&bc=12-27-617&feat=617-GN1&csp=f&gnrefine=1*SIZE_PROPORTION*Plus&pos=43

   1. There are also these:
      https://www.llbean.com/llb/shop/123540?page=vista-camp-pants-fleece-lined&csp=a&feat=121637-recsbottom.pdp
      and
      https://www.llbean.com/llb/shop/90151?page=vista-trekking-lined-pant-misses&csp=a&feat=121637-recsbottom.pdp

      I have the unlined version of the vista trek pants and like them.

   2. When we moved to Canada, I bought a pair of flannel lined jeans from L.L.Bean (similar to these: https://www.llbean.ca/shop/Womens-BeanFlex-Jeans%2C-Favorite-Fit-Straight-Leg-Lined/123371.html#prefn1=customFeatures&prefv1=Lined&start=1) and they are my FAVOURITE thing. If you plan on being outside a lot this winter and want to be warm (and are somewhere reasonably cold-ish), I highly recommend. They make walking the dog early in the morning, ice skating outside, walking/easy hiking, etc much more comfortable. Surprisingly, the jeans did not add much “bulk” so it doesn’t really look like I’m wearing super thick jeans but rather just regular jeans. YMMV

   3. I also saw a down skirt at Uniqlo which might serve a similar purpose. Looks a bit like you’re wearing a blanket.

      1. Down skirts are definitely a thing at all the major outdoor brands. Everyone in my small northern city wears them.

   4. Oh! Thanks for this post! I saw these in-store yesterday and meant to post them for that poster. If I didn’t already have a similar (but seriously less cool) pair, I’d nab these!

      https://www.eddiebauer.com/p/prod2650019/women%27s-guide-pro-flex-lined-jogger-pants?sp=1&color=Dk%20Smoke

      1. Oh I like those! Thank you for posting – I’ve had my eye on a couple EB pieces so I think I’ll pull the trigger.

   5. Thanks you!!!

8. with regards to the Purdue Pharma settlement – does anyone know if all of the doctors who accepted the kickbacks were also charged? I get that what the company did is illegal and unethical, but no one forced the doctors to accept the kickbacks

   1. 60 minutes has reported that doctors have gotten freebies from the drug companies to issue certain prescriptions, rangeing from expensive tchochkes and clotheing to weekends at posh resorts, and this has gone on for many years. No big deal.

9. Hi all, looking to provide my husband a Christmas list for gift ideas to get me. Basic DC mom with two small kids, likes reading, exercise classes, RIP spa trips. I already have nice Ugg slippers and I’m not really a robe wearer. So far I have on my list face masks, tea forte teas, and a book I want from a local bookstore. Any ideas? What do you all want for Christmas?

   1. I would like a husband, but am not about to get one during this pandemic no matter what I do. FOOEY! In your case, be happy you have one even if he doesn’t get you exactly what you want. You already are married! YAY!!

   2. My birthday is a few days before Christmas and I like a pile of books. We don’t do big presents so normally books, chocolate, coffee/tea, a nice candle.

   3. I’m asking for a cookbook and a Le Creuset.

      1. Are you me? That’s my exact wish list!

      2. If you’re looking for recs, Julia Turshen’s books, both the Smitten Kitchen cookbooks, and the Ottolenghi ones are fab!

   4. If you’re missing the spa, facials specifically, ask for a facial steamer. I bought one a few months ago and have been very happy with the results (combined with other skin care treats).

      1. How do you use your steamer and how often? I bought one recently after mention here. I’ve only used a few times before a sheet mask.

         1. I use it once a week for 20 minutes. First I do a double cleanse (oil then cleanser). Then I sit in front of the steamer for 20 minutes. Then I do a chemical exfoliant (10 minutes). Then a soothing or radiance mask (20 minutes). Rinse, toner, serums and moisturize.

   5. -Framing some art that we picked up while traveling (the end product is worth it but framing is $$!)
      -The new keyboard for my iPad (the one that allows lots of viewing angles, ideal for when I’m standing and using it)
      -Britbox or Acorn subscription
      -Haven’t found the exact pair I want yet, but I’m gradually growing my collection of “real” earrings (vs costume jewelry) and want aquamarine drops.

      1. I received a gift subscription to Books are Magic- they send me a book once a month. It’s my favorite gift I’ve received and a favorite to recommend to other people!
         Also on my list this year- Silpat baking mats, a subscription to the Atlantic and to the NYT cooking app, a new patagonia down sweater jacket, bombas merino crew socks, a newer brighter headlamp for dog walks and running, a solostove backyard fire pit… etc. I also thought this list was a good one (and not all from Amazon/Nordstrom/Target) https://www.geethanksjustboughtit.com/blog/these-gifts-are-perfect-for-anyone-on-your-list-but-you-have-to-order-them-early

      2. Bloomingdales in house line has some real steals – these are very pretty!
         https://www.bloomingdales.com/shop/product/bloomingdales-aquamarine-briolette-threader-earrings-in-14k-rose-gold-100-exclusive?ID=3180757&CategoryID=3376

   6. Jewelry, always.

      1. Ha, hard agree. Our wonderful local jeweler lets you put together a ‘wish list’. I do that every so often and it’s a great way to curate some things I like and lets the ladies who work there suggest things that fit my style. I love my husband but he literally bought me identical earrings for two occasions in the same year (xmas and mother’s day). After that I started making a list of suggestions for him….

      2. Yep. I give links to examples AND a general description that can be read off to a retail worker or jeweler.

   7. A gift card to a super-fancy restaurant in your area! Specifically one that does takeout or has a heated patio in the wintertime, assuming you are not yet eating indoors.

      A fancy bottle of wine or champagne.

      As you can tell, consumable presents are my favorite!

   8. I’m asking for a couple of cookbooks, a gorgeous oversized calendar, and Athleta gear.

      1. Calendar link? Love oversized calendars.

         1. Look at 1Canoe2. I love their stuff!

         2. Check out the Dolphin Studio calendar.

   9. Some random stuff floating around on my wishlist right now:

      A yoga bolster
      https://www.manduka.com/products/enlight-rectangular-bolster?variant=23736386420794

      Really nice bedding from Parachute and Linoto
      https://www.parachutehome.com/products/quilt-cloud-cotton
      https://www.linoto.com/linen-sheets/

      Subscription Flowers of the Month
      https://globalrose.com/flowers/flower-club.html

      Art:
      https://www.madetrade.com/collections/wall-decor/products/conejo-and-co-ciervo
      https://aly-mcknight.com/products/guided-by-the-ancestors-preorder-1?variant=33101858570317
      https://www.thundervoiceeagle.com/product-page/buffalo-tree-rings
      https://www.etsy.com/shop/MichelleArmas?ref=hdr_shop_menu&section_id=6578084

      A cozy blanket
      https://www.potterybarn.com/products/faux-fur-ruched-throw-collection/
      https://www.barefootdreams.com/cozychic-throw-stone.html?cat-id=33

      Random one – a starry light – lol I really do want this for myself
      https://shopstarrylights.com/products/starrylite

      Books:
      More Myself: A Journey by Alicia Keys

      The Hidden Life of Trees: What They Feel, How They Communicate―Discoveries from A Secret World (The Mysteries of Nature (1)) by Peter Wohlleben (THIS IS MY FAVORITE BOOK EVER EVERYONE NEEDS IT)

      The Inner Life of Animals: Love, Grief, and Compassion―Surprising Observations of a Hidden World (The Mysteries of Nature (2)) by Peter Wohlleben

      The Secret Wisdom of Nature: Trees, Animals, and the Extraordinary Balance of All Living Things -― Stories from Science and Observation (The Mysteries of Nature (3)) by Peter Wohlleben

      1. Oooh, love your art picks. I want that buffalo print!

      2. The subscription flowers are a great idea! We’re home so much right now and I don’t pick them up on delivery grocery the way I did when I shopped for myself.

         1. Grace Rose Farm ships AMAZING garden roses, and I love supporting a small woman owned farm in CA (especially after they lost a lot of their crop in the fires).

         2. +1000 for flower subscription. My husband got me a flower subscription towards the beginning of the pandemic and I have enjoyed it SO much! I look forward to receiving them at the beginning of every month, I love actually receiving them and arranging them nicely in a vase, and they are a small joy to have in the house even when everything else is quite dark.

      3. Can I just say that you have excellent taste!?

         1. Was going to say the same thing! Great picks, I bet your home is lovely.

         2. Ahh thanks guys! This made my day!

   10. My mum asked for a new yoga mat with an alignment line down the middle. I have asked for a new wool duvet inner from my parents – although because of logistics I’ll pay for it and they’ll give me the money – so festive! Vouchers for specialist shops for hobbies can also go down well – Eg local yarn or book stores. What I like about those is that you’re giving the gift of some time pottering around the shop and choosing as well as the value of the voucher.

   11. Airpods Pro, Audible subscription, Peloton (for something spendy — not implying that this is a “normal” gift!). What about upgrades to things you already own — someone here posted about cashmere joggers? I’m asking for a small gold necklace, maybe another Le Creuset pot and/or an air fryer.

   12. A gift card to Athleta (or Lululemon if that’s more your style), maybe a subscription to virtual exercise classes?

   13. My husband also asked what I want for my November birthday/Christmas. What I WANT is a nice girls weekend away/spa trip. Ha, even he was like, so I know I can’t get you a weekend trip….anything else you want?
       I’m adding fancy candles (Jo Malone, Sydney Hale), Some nice but not super expensive necklaces (thanks Zoom calls for making me realize this is a hole in my collection) – the bloomingdales in house line is very nice and on sale often! David Yurman (yes, I’m a basic mom) cable necklaces are also in my wheelhouse. Liberty of London robe is a bit of a splurge but it would totally perk me up on gross winter mornings.

       1. Beginning of this year I was thinking about asking for an Alaska Airlines gift card for my birthday/Christmas (in November/December- I was planning ahead). Now that I don’t know when I’ll travel internationally again, that’s no longer something I’m asking for. :(

   14. Costco sells a 16 oz bottle of vanilla. Sure, I could buy it for myself, but it’s nearly $40, and that’s not a fun addition to your grocery bill, but with how much I like to bake, it’s a thoughtful, generous gift that will definitely get used. (Disregard if you’re one of those people who can tell the difference between exotic vanilla varieties – I definitely can’t and neither can my chocolate chip cookies ;) )

       And a big bottle of my perfume. Even if I’m just wearing jeans and a t-shirt in pandemic life, it makes me feel normal :)

       1. Ooh, yes, this. I’d totally ask for a big bottle of vanilla or the fancy cocoa powder that Smitten Kitchen recommends sometimes for Christmas.

       2. Just buy it. If you bake that much it’s worth it.

       3. I don’t bake, and I barely cook, but I’ve asked for nice balsamic vinegar before.

       4. Oh, I say go hog-wild and get the double strength Madagascar vanilla from Penzey’s. It makes such a difference in those baked goods with a strong vanilla flavor note. I use the Costco version for cooking where the vanilla adds depth and complexity but the flavor is masked by another ingredient such as chocolate. I also love supporting Penzey’s in any way possible.

          1. +1 Life is too short – buy the vanilla!

   15. My husband and I just discussed this last night and decided that we already have everything we need. We treated ourselves to an espresso machine this year and I’m looking forward to cool winter days with a hot cup of coffee. Neither of us is very motivated by “stuff” so we won’t do gifts, but we’re going to decorate the house, including things like making paper snowflakes to hang up, plan our Christmas movie watchlist, and enjoy the time together. That’s what I want for Christmas and I’m excited.

   16. Year-round I keep a “splurge list” on my phone of things I want that aren’t in my normal shopping repertoire, either because they’re expensive, they’re upgrades of something I already have, they’re frivolous, etc. I refer back to this list for my birthday/Christmas list and/or when I treat myself. Most of this list I buy for myself because I don’t like asking my family to buy me expensive things (I’m single and I won’t ask my parents to buy me Rothys when my mom only wears shoes from Payless…even though they’re better off than I am)

       Some things on my list/or things that I bought off the list in the past year: specific clothing items from Marine Layer and Athleta, Airpods, hiking boots, a nicer fake leather jacket, Allbirds, Rothys, and nice lounge clothes.

   17. Earrings from Kojima Pearl
       Some skincare stuff from Sephora and Target
       Probably a long, warm cardigan but I haven’t picked it yet

   18. Another washable down vest. I am wearing mine so much it’s getting stinky :)

   19. ooh so many:
       – diptyque candle
       – cookbooks: oh she glows dinner, bravetart, jubilee, salt fat acid heat, six seasons
       – beginners crochet kit for cute little figures, like a star wars, harry potter, or cute animals
       – sackcloth and ashes wool blanket
       – rothys ankle boots
       -nice yoga booster, yoga blocks
       -tentree fleece sweatpants or sweatshirt
       – girlfriend collective yoga pants, bike shorts and sports bra

10. How do y’all with combined finances handle spending in categories that are personal, variable and verge precariously on discretionary? Our current system is that we each have a monthly budget allotted for clothing and another for “personal care” products, but I’m tired of feeling like that money is use it or lose it some months and like it’s not enough other months and want to propose a change. Curious what others do.

    1. we have combined finances but we don’t really have budgets like that for set things. i just buy clothes when i need/want them. can your ‘budget’ roll over from month to month?

       1. This is our set up too. We don’t budget that specifically, just get things when we need/want them. That said I bet that it’s really effective for a lot of people. I think rolling over month to month is solution to your issue.

    2. Use envelope-based budgeting and roll over the excess from one month into the next. My husband never spends on clothing, so I roll his clothing budget over for months at a time and then use the accumulated money to go on a shopping spree for what he desperately needs.

    3. Carry over the budget so that instead of $100 monthly (for example), it is $1200/year. We track this in Mint.

       1. This is what we do as well. My husband typically spends his every month whereas I’m saving up for something special. We just track in a spreadsheet.

    4. We are 100% combined, don’t have any categories, and don’t have a budget. We are fairly frugal by nature and we spend in line with our values, which sort of works out to a natural budget. We discuss larger purchases together but it’s 100% joint. I enjoy this method because it’s a lot less mental labor than when we used to contribute to a joint checking account.

       1. This is our exact arrangement. Every so often, we’ll do a general check in if it looks like our spending has creeped up but no hard budgets here.

    5. We have combined money, and our somewhat unspoken rule is anything personal and frivolous (something for a hobby, random articles of clothing, etc) that is over $50 we check in with the other.
       We rarely override one another, but I have asked my husband to hold off on expensive biking purchases, and he keeps me in check about another pair of shoes I don’t really need. We aren’t big spenders, so pretty much all our monthly output is for household goods or goes into savings.

       1. This is us, but our check in number is $1,000. Our HHI is about $200k. I was single until I was 35 and knew I didn’t want to have to talk about any small purchases I make. The truth is that I buy almost nothing because I’m just not interested in stuff. My husband has a hobby that always “needs” more items and he loves to discuss so he ends up talking to me about most of his purchases, even the $5 ones. But

    6. We each get a certain amount (currently $150) automatically deposited in our separate accounts each paycheck to do with as we please. This covers work lunches, hobbies, makeup, shopping, etc., although I did bend the rule a bit to categorize anything purchased at Costco (pjs, underwear, casual clothing) as a joint account purchase lol.

    7. You could set up separate bank accounts for each of you, linked to your main checking account, and put your monthly allocation in there. DH and I do a version of this for our discretionary spending, though we don’t contribute monthly and it covers truly discretionary stuff (usually tech toys for him, clothes I don’t need and books for me). We have about a lot of linked accounts–main checking, savings (not our real emergency savings fund, but a few thousand for things like car repairs or larger than usual healthcare expenses), kid’s tuition, holidays, travel, and an account for each of us. The key is that it’s easy to transfer money around.

    8. We have no budget. Which isn’t to say we spend all our money but we just buy in line with our needs which some months may mean $0 on personal care and other months may be $500 if we happen to need everything all at once. If you trust your partner to sensibly spend I really recommend this. It saves so much mental labour and doesn’t impact our financial status.

       1. This is what we do too (commented above). As long as you’re sensible/frugal, it works well.

       2. We’re in this boat, but it’s only as a result of 10-15 years of constant communication on finances and (frankly) high salaries.

          The conversations were much, much different when we were in debt, had lower salaries, and were still figuring out how to align our spending priorities.

          1. DH and I have successfully had no budget when our HHI was like 15k (we lived in some pretty sketchy poverty in undergrad) and now with a HHI close to 150k.

       3. This is what we do. We are comfortable but not high earners (HHI $140k in a LCOL area) and we both spend well below what we earn. There are months when we buy nothing but groceries and gas, and a month when it’s a weekend away and car repairs.

11. My Aunt asked me to send her a certain kind of cookie from Germany, and I thought I‘d send her a few things and make a care package of it. Any ideas for what to include? No dietary restrictions. Thanks!

    1. Assuming you’re in Germany, sending a care package to the US:
       – Schokobananen!
       – interesting Haribo sweet flavours/ shapes
       – the packaged Käsespätzle sachets (the ones you mix with water).

       1. My kids would kill for the Cola Haribo and I found it in Ottawa last week. They also love Maoam.

    2. I would love Ritter (you have way more flavors in Germany than we do here) and Doppelkeks.

       1. I would also just load it up with chocolate. European chocolate is so good. I can’t eat Hershey’s anymore.

          1. Yeeessss.

          2. Why is american chocolate so awful? Signed a European who loves many things about the US

       2. Ritter!!! They have the basic flavors here: hazelnut, marzipan, and peppermint, but not the more off the wall options :)

    3. The kinder schokolade are particular favorites in our house and I always have to come home with boxes of them and the mix (forget the name). Haribo are more widely available now in the US but not everyone, so I’d suggest that. Milka oreo flavor is amazing. Are the advent calendars out yet? I got the ritter, kinder, and milka ones when I was there in December last year (sob, I miss travel).
       Sounds odd, but the German Nivea creme is WAY better than the US kind, so that might be nice.

       1. Yes, love Kinder Schokolade!

          1. just requested Kinder Schokolade to be sent from my German relatives! Also various Christmas treats (Dominosteine, Blaetterkrokant…).

       2. Oh! On the Nivea note – the DM brand lip balms are my absolute favourite so I would include those in a care package. (Downside of it now being nearly 11 months since my last trip to Austria is that I haven’t had the chance to go to DM!)

    4. If this is a holiday cookie / holiday care package, I’d recommend German Christmas decorations! I loooove the wooden traditional style ones (probably because they remind me of my grandparents and how I’d help them decorate for Christmas every year). I’ve never been to Germany (though these grandparents were of German descent so their decorations were German), but I stocked up on similar decorations last year when I was in Vienna and Prague in late fall.

12. I have a Chromebook that I hate. It works mostly fine (though very slow at times), but I did just realize its 6 or 7 years old. At work, in addition to a laptop that I dock at a double monitor, I also have a Surface Pro, which I really like. When I wfh or work from our second office location (approximately once a week), I use that exclusively as my computer. I rarely use it as a tablet, but it’s a great little laptop.

    I really hate my Chromebook and would love to replace it, even though it doesn’t “need” replacing (I’m very much a use technology until it literally doesn’t turn on, and then replace it) kind of person.

    I’m likely 1-3 years away from starting grad school. I don’t want to buy a new laptop now, since it’s very likely that my program will have required specifications for a laptop (I’ll likely have a GIS class or two).

    So, I”m considering getting an iPad with a keyboard as my “computer” in the interim. I’ve never had an iPad before, so I don’t know if its sufficient at basic computer tasks (mostly web based, but I’d also want word processing and spreadsheets). I like that I could also use it as a tablet for the Kindle app and the peleton app. Is this a terrible idea?

    1. Following up on this – what’s the difference between the iPad, the iPad Air, and the iPad pro?

       1. Here’s a CNET overview: https://www.cnet.com/news/best-ipad-to-get-in-2020-ipad-air-2020-vs-ipad-pro-2020-vs-ipad-2020-vs-ipad-mini-2020/

          1. Thanks!

    2. I hardly ever use my laptop at home, I use my phone and ipad for almost everything. But keep in mind that ipads are pretty expensive – you might want to just get a cheaper laptop for the interim until grad school.

       1. I think I saw the regular iPad selling for somewhere in the $300s, is that offbase?

    3. In grad school right now and several classmates who bought iPads are disappointed in them and wish they had just bought laptops.

       1. The iPad would not be in place of the grad school laptop, but something to bridge the gap between now and starting grad school (in case I need specific specs in my laptop for grad school, I don’t want to buy a laptop just yet). Then, when I have a laptop it could be used as a tablet.

    4. Word processing you might be able to do. Spreadsheets nope.
       I’ve been using an iPad as my personal “computer” for the past few years and using my work laptop for things I couldn’t do on it, but this year I’m just going to bite the bullet and get myself a real computer on Black Friday.

    5. TBH, I think an iPad is only good if you are going to *consume* media (sit on a Zoom call, look up things, watch videos, surf the internet). I don’t think it’s good if you are going to *create* anything (documents, spreadsheets, etc.).

       1. A chromebook is basically a cheap tablet dressed up as a laptop, though. If OP can do it on a chromebook, she should be able to do it on an iPad with keyboard. If not, she could keep the chromebook for just a few tasks and do most everything else much more easily on the iPad.

    6. Contrary to the opinions above, I used my iPad as my computer for most of the year pre-COVID, including for writing and creating spreadsheets- nothing complex, but they often did include formulas etc. It is definitely not the same functionality as a computer and some things require a computer (can’t Remote Desktop in from the iPad for example), but I would say I used my iPad 80% of the time. I have the first gen iPad Pro with the keyboard and pencil (pencil is most helpful for reviewing PDFs or highlighting. Not really a must have…).

    7. Definitely hold off on getting a real laptop – especially for grad school because you’ll need something more powerful, greater functionality, and compatible with lots of different programs (especially if you’ll be running models or processing large amounts of data) – basically save for a high quality non-apple computer.

       For now, you can get a new 8th gen ipad for $300. You don’t need an ipad pro, especially if you’re only using it for personal casual computer use. Get a keyboard cover and pen and call it a day. As a plus, that ipad will probably last beyond grad school.

    8. I’ve used an Ipad as my personal “computer” for about 3 years now and love it. I mostly use it as a bigger-than-my-phone internet screen, but I do relatively word processing (~3x/week) and spreadsheets (~1/week). I have word and excel on there, and although it’s not quite as smooth as a standard computer, it works fine for my purposes. For reference, in Word I do a lot of track changes editing and dealing with internally hyperlinked footnotes/Table of Contents/Table of Authorities/etc. My Excel use is more project and budget management than quantitative analysis. I’m very happy with my setup, but I do think I push the use-case to the edge – if I did anything fancier, or more frequent, I would need a laptop.

13. How do you pick yourself up when you’re just not feeling very attractive/confident/successful? The pandemic is a slog, I’ve gained the COVID-15, I’m burnt out and therefore my work product is meh at best, and the things that usually make me feel good about myself are off the table for the foreseeable future. I usually feel pretty bad*ss, confident and like I”m crushing it, but I do NOT feel that way this week!!!

    *Due to work, I have to lay low and spend the weekend close to home this weekend so can’t get away in nature for a hike or anything like that this weekend.

    1. I begrudgingly put on some makeup for a zoom call yesterday, and put a little effort into my hair. Lo and behold I felt so much peppier and more confident, and actually enjoyed the call. Thinking I look like crap every time I pass a mirror is apparently taking its toll.

       1. It’s super cheesy, but try saying something nice to yourself whenever you pass the mirror. It really works.

       2. It’s interesting that you say this. I have been athleisure + minimal makeup this whole time, and yesterday I had a Zoom call with 2 old friends (one of whom was my former boss). When I retired, said boss had given me a Hermes scarf which I had lusted for, but obviously am not wearing now. The 3 of us agreed to wear scarves on this Zoom call and I wore this scarf (over a black sweatshirt TBH!) and darned if it didn’t make me sit up a little straighter, if that makes sense.

       3. I’ve started putting my hair down and brushing it out before zoom calls, and putting on a little lip color. Makes a difference when I see myself looking less like a disaster on the tiny video screen thing.

    2. While I’m wfh today and tomorrow, I”m actually working in person in the office nearly full time so I am getting up, getting out of the house, putting on “real clothes” (though more casual than I was in the office before times). Will try to get kind of “dressed up” tomorrow and see if that helps!

    3. I started following some makeup and skincare accounts on Instagram and tik tok so at least now my face looks A+.

       1. Any specific accounts you recommend??

          1. On tik tok I like Sonia Valencia, Sarah Palmyra, honestly Elizabeth, dermdoctor (dr. shah), and Charlotte Palermino.

             On Instagram, I follow those accounts as well as some brand accounts for makeup and skincare lines I like.

             1. Also I prefer the 60 second tik tok format for videos. I don’t need your life story. I just want to know which vitamin C serum you like.

    4. If you’re still reading this — I’ve grown my hair out during COVID and when I’m feeling blah I search online for “Easy office updo” or “Easy messy braid.” Stuff like that — learning how to do something fun with my hair, which then shows up on the Zoom calls, has been fun/distracting.

       1. Love this idea, but my hair is above my shoulders

    5. Starting the day blasting the song “9 to 5” by dolly parton really helped me survive the last week of tax season. Generally loud peppy music first thing in the morning. Even better if you sing and dance along.

14. What’s your favorite very durable iPhone case? I’ll be getting the new SE soon (can’t wait!) and I need a new case. I’m very clumsy and drop my phone ALL. THE. TIME. I’ve dropped my phone down the stairs more times than I should admit, I drop it on the sidewalk, I drop it when I’m hiking. I knock it off a counter. I drop it on the beach and there’s sand. I’m also just naturally hard on my things (I’ve managed to break credit cards before… even though they spend all day in my wallet?)

    I used to always get a LifeProof case (love how they’re durable against drops, but also waterproof, snow proof, dirt/dust proof and sandproof) but they’re so expensive and the cases never last a year for me. Though, I’ve never broken a phone, or even broken a screen with one. Is there a good alternative? I don’t love how the otterbox works, but I want something very durable. I LOVE the idea of a Pela case, but not sure if it’s durable enough. Any other suggestions?

    1. I really like the OtterBox Symmetry case. The case isn’t waterproof, but the new SE is water-resistant. I’ve dropped my phone in the Symmetry a zillion times, including facedown on concrete floors, and have never had the screen crack. The case doesn’t cover the screen, so the screen would still break if you dropped it on a rock or a sharp corner or something similar that didn’t get caught by the bumper.

       1. Otterbox forever! I’m constantly bobbling my phone and it has survived the last 3.5 years with its Otterbox and not a crack. (Yes, my phone is ancient.)

          1. 3.5 years is not ancient! Mine is 3 years old and I looked at the newer iPhones and they are not much better. My battery life is still good and my screen is fine. I think the newer phones should actually last 4-5 years, as much as Apple wants us to keep upgrading every two years.

             1. How do you keep yours working for so long! I would LOVE to keep my phones (and other tech) longer, but I find that they crap out on me after 2.5 years. I’ve never broken a phone or even cracked a screen, but yet they always die on me (and I keep my phones until they literally will no longer turn on, so I’m not replacing preemptively)

          2. Mine is almost 3 years old.I wish it would last longer, but it keeps dying randomly (even with fine battery). I’m just nervous about how things will go this winter, so I figure it’s worth it to get a phone now while retail is still open, there have been no riots in my city in months, our protests are peaceful and minimal. I’d have hated to be without a phone during the bad COVID era or the rioting and so I’m being preemptive with my purchase, even though I usually wait for my phone to totally die.

       2. +1 OtterBox Symmetry! I have a sparkly clear one so you can see the color of my XR. Also get a tempered glass screen protector. I drop my phone very regularly and have never had an issue.

          1. +1 to the Symmetry and a screw. Protector. The symmetry is much more streamlined than what I picture an otterbox to look like. I’ve dropped my phone a lot and it’s totally fine. Get the screen protector ASAP, though— day one of having my phone, a housekeeper scratched the screen and left a very small but noticeable scratch on my screen.

          2. +1 to the screen protector. I’ve dropped my phone onto the metal leg of a cafe table- shattered the screen protector but phone was undamaged. I also tossed my phone onto the bed recently from like 5 feet away (this was dumb. I realized that the moment I did it) and it bounced off and hit, uh, another metal table leg. Screen protector cracked. Phone is untouched.

       3. Love my otterbox. I have accidentally chucked my phone down the grocery store aisle and not a scratch.
          I’m super clumsy, and my phones always stay looking brand new. I use the defender, but it may not fit well in pockets/small purses.

    2. I use a Tech21 case and tempered glass screen protector. No problems in 5 years and the combo is still relatively sleek rather than big boxy protection.

    3. I also drop my phone all the time and have had good luck with the “tough case” option at Society 6. It has a pretty decent sized bumper.

    4. I’m a major dropper and klutz but the newer iphones are pretty hardy. I use a regular silicone case and a glass screen protector and have never had problems.

    5. After a few years of cheap cases where I was constantly dropping my phone and breaking the screen (I think I replaced 3 screens in one year), I finally got a couple Casely cases at the beginning of this year and haven’t broken a screen since. I assure you I did not get better at not dropping it. :)

    6. Speck cases have worked well for me.

    7. Weirdly, Kate Spade phone cases. I drop my iPhone all. the. time. Someone got me a KS case as a gift when I got my first iPhone, but since I have yet to crack the screen once in the past 7 years, I’ve just kept buying them for each new phone I get.

       1. I have good luck with these, as well.

    8. I have had good success with Spigen cases. You can find them on Amazon. They have a slimmer profile than Otterboxes.

       1. +1

          And I drop my phone a couple times a day.

    9. While i think otterbox is probably a good option, I have the Silk card pocket case. I’m on my third phone with this case and it’s protected my phone from many different disasters.

       Also, if you get a screen protector, buy it somewhere that they’ll install it for you.

    10. I love my slim case from Maus. There is a video of a drop test, and the cases do really well at protecting. Maus also has a good warranty. Mine is sleek and slim. Check them out at http://www.maus.co

15. I don’t know how I’m going to make it through the next two weeks. I feel like I’m going to chew my own leg off.

    1. Yep. My wife sent me a link to voter poll breakdown and I felt a surge of real, stomach twisting nausea. It’s so close and we know how wrong the polls were in 2016.
       Here’s the link if anyone else wants to feel like puking: https://ig.ft.com/us-election-2020/

       1. Thank you for the link. Isn’t it interesting that if you were to take, let’s say, the top 30 universities in this country, they are all concentrated on the blue side. The only exceptions I see are Vanderbilt in TN and WashU in MO.

    2. It’s tough. Here’s what’s kind of working for me: I’ve done what I can, I voted, and now I’m trying not to pay attention, except to see if there’s something more I should do. If I’m going to expend energy, it needs to be focused on helping.

       1. Action-focused, I like it.

    3. It is utterly inconceivable to me that this could be even a contest, let alone close.

       1. I felt the same in 2016 but here we are.

       2. I’m sure it won’t be in the popular vote, but Republicans are so good at stealing elections.

          1. Gerrymandering for the win.

             1. I don’t think gerrymandering this time. More a mix of voter suppression and post-election stealing the election thought the courts and appointed electors that makes Florida in 2000 look like child’s play.

          2. It’s not stealing an election when you win because the other candidate put her rural outreach office in Brooklyn and refused to listen to her husband about campaigning in the Midwest.

       3. Combo of voter suppression, gerrymandering, dangerous and unchecked social-media echo chambers, and a large segment of the population with authoritarian tendencies who play right into Trump’s playbook.

          “Authoritarianism is a strict and powerful central government with limited personal freedom. Such societies run smoothly (no need for compromise and the resulting gridlock) and very little street crime (because “criminals” are dealt with swiftly).
          Liberals tend to see the current rise of authoritarianism as a sudden madness triggered by, say, economic stress. In fact, about 1/3 of the population is by nature authoritarian—they dislike complexity, seek uniformity, & are deeply frightened by anyone who is “different.”
          “Conservatives” (those adverse to change) are different from authoritarians (those adverse to complexity). For decades American politics was dominated by Left (liberals) v. Right (conservatives.) Now the game has changed. Trump (Fox/Breitbart) changed the Repub. party into an authoritarian party. The politics is now Us v. Them. To prevent another Nazi (or fascist, or segregationist) regime, schools stress the evils inherent in these systems and promote the virtues of diversity. This cause a backlash because the 1/3 inclined toward authoritarianism see academics as out of touch brainwashers who dismiss opposing ideas as bigoted & ignorant. Trump rose to power on a backlash against multiculturalism and diversity; his voters will follow him anywhere because he is one of them.”
          https://terikanefield-blog.com/774-2/

16. How do I buy workout sneakers when I can’t go to the store to try them on? Any winners for both running and HIIT workouts?

    1. I keep buying the same brand same size, on Zappos typically.

    2. I love the Nike Zoom Winflos for exactly this. I don’t run more than 4-5 miles so if you’re a long distance runner you might want something different, but they work great for me. I have narrow feet and feel very supported.

       If you order a pair, you can wear them on around the house for an hour or two to see how they feel. If they don’t work, you should be able to return them as long as you didn’t wear them outside.

       1. Thank you — this is super helpful

    3. Is there a brand that you already use and like? I love Saucony and like Mizuno, so I feel safe ordering either brand online.

       Even better – is there a specific model that you’ve used and liked? I bounce around with my Sauconys, but I have a specific Mizuno style I like and feel confident just ordering the new year’s model of that shoe.

    4. Is there a reason you cannot go to the store to try them on — are you especially high risk? Unless you are re-ordering a pair that you know fit, I think you have to try on athletic shoes for the proper fit. I’ve gone to DSW and I’ve taken my 77 yo mother to Nordstrom for new shoes — masked and keep away from others and you’re fine.

    5. Those two activities have fundamentally different ranges of motion, so no.

       Mask up and go to the store. There really is no substitute for getting fitted by an experienced person.

       1. +1

       2. It’s cute that you think stores in most places have experienced fitters.

          1. Specialty running stores do. Even if the OP is in a smaller city, there is likely one near her.

          2. In this day and age, every city has someone who is good at fitting running shoes. Hell, even in my podunk town in the early 90’s we had that. The OP may have to ask around a bit – it’s not as simple as showing up to your local Shoe Station – but yes, there exists a store in most places where someone is an experienced running shoe fitter.

    6. Order a bunch from Zappos and return the ones that don’t work. This is actually what my podiatrist had me do.

    7. For running shoes, look at the Fleet Feet reviews. The review articles, not the reviews on the product pages. Know your foot shape and the type of shoe you need (stability, cushioned, motion control).

    8. I have the Brooks glycerin 18. I LOVE them. I previously wore Nikes and Ryka – it’s just another world in terms of running comfort. I usually run 5-10k at a time. Include them in your mix of try ons.

17. So many threads about COVID are degenerating so quickly now. I don’t know if there are any solutions to improving the quality of the conversation and reducing personal attacks here but maybe others have ideas?

    1. Collapse them and scroll by. Does wonders for my sanity.

       1. Yeah, I guess I should. I always glance at them because I used to see good advice about masks and things like that, but now that I think about it, I do have all the information I need already now that we’re so far in…

    2. It reflects the entire country’s mood as a whole. It gets personal because it IS personal and value-driven. The stakes are much higher for some than others. I’ve started ignoring most of the COVID threads when they start devolving.

    3. Yeah, I think it’s also the same few posters that tend to make things devolve quickly, on both sides.

       1. Yep, that’s it exactly. I sometimes wish this board wasn’t anonymous so we could see if it is just a vocal few posting over and over again (as I suspect).

       2. I’ll admit that I’ve been a part of the problem. I don’t mean to, but I get defensive if I’ve made some comment about my decision-making process while being high-risk and someone posts “OMG you’re completely ruled by anxiety” or “oh so you think essential workers are disposable then?” No? I never even suggested such a thing and I believe that we need to do much more to protect essential workers. It’s hard to not respond angrily but I need to do a better job of ignoring those kind of posts. If someone else wants to vent, I don’t have to respond and I need to stop taking the bait.

    4. The answer to better dialogue is not letting people vote anonymously. If folks can post anonymously, they’re going to be less filtered and more hateful accordingly. Fewer people would post, but that would be a good thing for civility here (just perhaps not as lucrative for Kat and Co.)

       1. *comment, not vote

       2. It’s helpful to see what people say without the benefit of a filter though. On fashion topics and in general.

          1. I don’t care about that for fashion or other light topics, but it’s helpful for some of the hot-button social issues.

          2. I don’t need a filter on fashion topics (see e.g. the comment section on CapHillStyle, which is lovely!). It’s the COVID posts that have gotten WAY out of control, but there’s a lot of nastiness on other threads too: a) whether to have kids, b) stances on abortion, c) anything else political, etc. The comment section here looks more like a reddit thread then the comment section of any other fashion blog, in terms of civility…

             1. I especially hate the commenters who are apparently so miserable they have nothing better to do than stalk and constantly call out named posters.

             2. Yeah, it’s REALLLYYYY creepy when a regular poster says something like “How can I maintain the charm in my historic condo” and someone jumps in with “Oh by charm do you mean you hate black people”? Seriously just f off.

             3. Pretty much. And because everything is so COVID-laden – see: where should I go on a weekend trip (driving, distanced, etc) where people jump in and say BUT YOU’RE KILLING GRANDMA – there are fewer normal, non-contentious posters.

                I would love an anonymous, but name required board that has some sort of screening. I’m in some facebook groups (obviously not anonymous) that are a lot more civil. The CapHillStyle one is an example.
                Abra is an anti-Trump Republican who actually did a post recently about how disgusted she is by the direction that the NRA has moved, so it definitely helps to have an educated, involved, moderator with clearly stated political views.

    5. I actually think this morning’s post was extremely contentious because it involved jury duty. A lot of us are lawyers; it’s fair to expect we’d have strong feelings about the importance of criminal jury trials. The rest of us are mostly liberal white collar professionals; it’s fair to expect they’ve limited thier interactions with the outside world in the hopes of avoiding catching covid or contributing to the spread and believe strongly that they have a social obligation to limit that.

       I come down firmly on one side, but I think this is a more important and more interesting conversation than the standard covid conversation here.

       1. I think it had potential, but it went awry quickly.

       2. I don’t think anyone is saying that criminal jury trials are unimportant. They are saying that protecting the safety of everyone concerned is more important than being in the same room for the trial.

       3. What makes that situation hard is that both sides are “right.” You can’t postpone trials indefinitely. It’s also risky for anyone who serves on the jury. Both are true!

          1. I think there’s a third side that no one acknowledges. That the court might evolve with the rest of the country and do things differently instead of how they’ve always been done.

             1. Well, that’s part of the problem – it’s not that high-risk people don’t want to serve and do their civic duty (many of us are, in fact, contributing from home more than ever before in this crazy year), but that the risk is too high without new precautions being taken. Those precautions will benefit EVERYONE, especially essential workers who have to be at court daily. We need to be able to ask for those precautions and refuse to serve without them, though, especially if part of the pushback is “old judges don’t want to change.” It’s wild to me that a judge could say “take off your mask so we can see your facial expressions” and I don’t think it makes people with cancer or severe immune deficiencies monsters for not being okay with that.

             2. I think it is hard to have a balanced discussion when we are all in states handling the pandemic totally differently. If you have a judge that takes it seriously versus a judge that thinks it’s a hoax, you are going to have very different experiences.

             3. I have two concerns about virtual trials.

                A) not everyone who needs to be involved in the trial has access to necessary equipment (computer, tablet, smartphone) and/or internet (or data)

                B) if i was the defendant, I would not trust a virtual trial. It’s too new and you don’t yet know what kinds of biases are present.

             4. Courts are extremely resistant to change, but surprisingly they’ve largely stepped up and tried to respond to this crisis. In my observation appellate courts actually seemed to move more quickly to remote proceedings than trial courts, which is interesting. Remote proceedings are logistically easier in appellate court and you don’t have the same concerns about confrontation, access, and credibility of witnesses, but on the other hand appellate courts are even more steeped in tradition than trial courts.

                In state trial courts, there is anecdotal evidence that remote proceedings are increasing access to justice and decreasing rates of failure to appear. Some states are considering maintaining remote appearances as an option after the pandemic ends.

          2. As an essential worker, it was a very frustrating thread!

    6. I try to remember the quote “I don’t know how to explain to you that you should care about other people” and just feel sad for a moment that there are some of those non-caring people here.

       1. Agree. I just can’t imagine saying “forget a person’s right to a fair trial.”

       2. That applies to both sides of that argument though. You should care about people that are in jail! You should care about the health of people on a jury and their family members!

          1. but what about the right to someone to a speedy trial? That’s also really important. People who are in jail awaiting trial that are acquitted or otherwise go home are less at risk if they can get out of jail faster. Plus ALL the other considerations.

             1. That would be one of the “both sides” the person you responded to mentioned.

          2. +1.

          3. Calm down. I’m not talking about jury trials. I’m talking about people who don’t want to take COVID precautions and accuse everyone else of being anxious or crazy.

    7. I think a big issue with the jury trial thread is that everyone responded as though what they were seeing in their area was the case everywhere. I saw some people expressing concern about their local courts with little to no precautions (no masks!) or with little to no communication about precautions, and other responding to them that in *their* area, local courts were taking all kinds of precautions and therefore any concerns were overblown entitlement at the cost of people awaiting trials.

       There seem to be a lot of people talking past each other and making ungenerous assumptions about whoever they’re responding to (saying speedy in person trials are important is not the same as saying court proceedings should be exactly like they were pre-pandemic!).

       I also can’t stand the trend on this board of people assuming they know who anonymous posters are and criticizing comments based on unrelated comments by other anonymous posters in completely separate threads, sometimes days or weeks after the fact. Lumping everyone with covid concerns together as conservative and anxious isn’t constructive! Assuming someone who is posting about a gathering with friends is the same person who went on a multi-state road trip makes no sense! If people would respond to the comments themselves instead of trying to respond to who they think the commenter is, these threads would be so much more gracious and reasonable.

18. For those who have changed careers at 40+ and were in a situation where you had to start in an entry level position. How did you ensure you conveyed your genuine interest in making this new career move. I think it is partly due to being in my academic research field for long. I want to email a recent contact to say that I would be open to analyst roles in their organisation. Something along the lines of “I would be open to discussing analyst roles that may come up in the near future (within geographical area X) that would match my skillsets and interests. I think that it would be a good opportunity to gain experience in this new field, while harnessing my current competencies”. Other than just stating my interest, what else could I put in the email? Any other advice on mid career changing is welcome.

    1. I think showing enthusiasm for the field (you love the type of work and aren’t just bored and need a change of wind), and emphasize that your have the skillsets/are certified would be good. I personally haven’t done it myself, but I know a few who did. They went back to school for the appropriate degree and switched jobs mid-career, starting at entry-level positions again. One did an internship somewhere and got hired by a client from the internship through recommendations. But badically she had to have the appropriate degree because it matters for that field.

19. My 9 year old daughter is almost 5′ tall with long, thin legs and weighs about 85 pounds. Any recs for leggings for her? Girls sizes XL or 14-16 and the like are kind of short at the ankles already (and it would be nice if these fit her through the winter!) and are kind of baggy in the waist and cr0tch area. I’m afraid a women’s xxs or xs would be too big because she’s still built like a child with no hips. But maybe not? Some stores sell slim sizes in girls’ pants, but I haven’t found any leggings that come in slims.

    1. I would get women’s in petites as they will be short enough. For leggings, too big in the hip is unlikely to be an issue. In my experience the higher end brands fit smaller. Vanity sizing at places like Old Navy is crazy so the XS is not actually very small. Try lululemon or sportswear brands like Nike and adidas maybe.

       1. +1
          I’m 5ft tall, 85 lbs, and am shaped like a pre-teen. I wear Loft’s petite sizes in PXXS or PXS. I haven’t bought leggings from them in a while but I actually prefer to size up for the ones I got. IMO their leggings run small (definitely smaller than their pants and shorts).

    2. I would venture into women’s sizes. Something like lululemon in their shorter lengths in their smallest size should work. The bonus is that (assuming those aren’t out of your price range) they stretch quite a bit and they can just become cropped as she grows.

    3. Maybe look at American Eagle? My 12 year old is 4’10” and maybe 65 pounds and has absolutely no curves yet. When school started we found that the 00 size pants were too long and a little too big for her, but 000 fit her perfectly. So maybe 00 would work?

    4. Have you tried H&M? I don’t know about sizes in that range, but for smaller girls sizes they run long and slim.

    5. Try brands designed for tweens and teens; they run a bit straighter, in my experience (lower waist-hip differential). Hollister, American Eagle, Abercrombie. Wait for sales. You can also try Forever 21, H& M, Zara, or Target; some have a pretty good selection of young women/older girls clothes. Maybe Brass Plum at Nordstrom. With leggings I generally eyeball rather than try on, especially now. My daughter was 5’6 at 11 years old, so we had to figure out not-kids/not-womens for about 3-4 years. It’s not easy finding something appropriate for a girl who is too tall for kids, not shaped like a woman, and too young for sexy older teen.

    6. Abra at CapHill suggested the colorful koala brand (on amazon) and while they aren’t as thick/nice as lulu’s they are a pretty darn good dupe for athleta leggings. I’d try those in an XS, they are definitely on the smaller side compared to old navy/target – women’s S is probably a lulu 4 for reference.

       1. I own a pair of that brand in leggings and joggers! I love them. I’d definitely try the xs, or even the 7/8 length since she’s under 5 foot.

    7. Target has great lounge leggings for women in the underwear section. They are decent quality and not that expensive. I’m 5’2 and wear them.

20. Our oven died so we are looking to get a new range. I’m really intrigued by the double oven models- anyone have one and can speak as to things they like/dislike about it and how often they use the bottom oven? The bottom oven looks awfully low but perhaps it won’t get enough use for this to be problematic?
    I think our front runner is the GE Cafe.

    1. I love having a double oven! I use the bigger one (the bottom one on mine) 90% of the time but it is so convenient to have two for the other 10% of the time when I want to cook two different things at two different temperatures. I also use the top one as a proofing drawer and to keep things warm.

    2. we have the Whirlpool double oven Gold line and we love it…..we decided to go with the double oven in the range vs. having a storage door at bottom of the range that we never use. We use the top ‘single oven’ often for baking one dish/casserole/cookie sheet/roasting veggies and the bottom oven is great for holidays you can put the turkey in the bottom (and even fit in a pan of stuffing depending on size of your bird), and we look the convection in the bottom ‘double oven’ and also cook in the upper single oven. Works great….the bottom oven seems low at first but you get used to it…you have to bend down lower but it is such a better use of the space….hope this helps

    3. I had one in my last house and loved it! Ditto to using the smaller upper one for warming and proofing.

    4. I went with GE Profile after researching a bit. Was also considering Bosch but they were slightly above my price point. GE Cafe has solid reviews as well but I didn’t love the style on the double wall ovens (upper has French doors, lower has pulldoor).

       I wanted the true double ovens for ages – two full sized ovens vs. the one true oven and one smaller microwave/proofing oven. I grew up in a house with double wall ovens plus a range that had an oven and it was so amazing for entertaining. So nice to be able to cook dinner in one oven and dessert in another at different temps at the same time.

       1. This is my dream – one regular oven/range combo, and then one wall oven with french doors (mostly for baking). One day…

    5. every time i visit my parents and see their double oven, i dream about how nice it will be to have one one day. my mom used it all the time. my in laws just downsized so my mil doesnt have one anymore and misses it so much

       1. I have never had double ovens so perhaps I don’t know what I’m missing, but I can’t imagine using both ovens other than at Thanksgiving. How do you use a second oven on a regular basis?

          1. It depends how much you cook at home, how big your family is and how often you have people over. We have my sister and her family over for dinner at least once or twice a month. So that’s nine people and it’s just much easier to have two ovens when cooking for more than 4-5 people.

             For just us, I’ll regularly have sheet pan dinner in one oven and muffins or something for breakfast the next morning going in the other oven. Also, super useful when you are making things that need to be at two different temperatures. Like when you want to roast pumpkin seeds on low at 300 but do fish at 425. Sometimes I’ll put lasagna in the oven and then bake something with the kids. Something like cookies just takes a few minutes to bake so we can put them in and take them out while the lasagna is still going in the other oven. Or if I only have an hour of time to bake with the kids on the weekend, we can turn both ovens on, and get a ton of cookies or muffins done quickly by having 3 cookie sheets in each oven.

             1. This. I bake a decent amount and it would be SO nice to have my dessert able to go in at the same time as I’m roasting something for dinner. And we host thanksgiving (and a lot of other holidays) and I would love to not have a super strict plan/timetable for what things go in the oven and when.

          2. Thing is, if you host Thanksgiving and you need it on Thanksgiving, you NEED it on Thanksgiving.

             Also as others have said, I used my smaller one as a warmer pretty much daily. So nice to have warm plates!

             1. This. If you host Thanksgiving I guarantee you have a PLAN for your oven and woe betide anyone who shows up with something ‘they just need to pop in the oven for 20 minutes!’. It would be nice to have some wiggle room for any big get togethers. I literally will decide menus based on what can be made ahead/stay at room temperature/made on the stove only.

    6. I just bought a basic Costco Maytag double oven and I love it. Household of 7 and I cook extensively and from scratch. It was a huge game changer.

    7. Thanks – this is super helpful. I love all the specific examples! Being able to proof and preheat at the same time is immensely appealing!

    8. I love it. We’re a 2-person household, but I bake a lot, and I love being able to use both ovens at the same time and get sheets of cookies or whatever done more quickly. I also like it for making dinners that require multiple things to be cooked in the oven at different temps – it takes the math out of figuring out the timing of how to get everything done at the right time. Mine also have “keep warm” settings, so I love turning on the bottom one for keeping things warm after they’re finished cooking in the top. If you have the space and the money, do it!

       1. Yes – this is something I think less experienced cooks/hosts struggle with. It is HARD to time everything to come out at the same time at the right temperature. There is almost always one tense moment at every Thanksgiving when I’m trying to plate ALL THE THINGS while finishing up the gravy and we’ve hosted for easily 10+ years now.

          1. Late reply but single oven person here who cooks the entire Thanksgiving meal by myself. The planning is my favorite part, honestly. I am a firm believer in resting a cooked turkey 30 min so that’s when everything else goes in to bake or a sample-heat.

21. I’m really struggling with my postpartum body even though I objectively realize that I’m lucky that my typical size took very little effort on my part. I did ivf for my second baby and the shots made me gain about 10 pounds from my regular weight and the whole process of getting pregnant took about a year. This pregnancy was so much rougher on my body than my first and I feel like it’s been forever since I’ve felt like myself. I guess that makes sense when I think about it since it has been 2 full years!

    Baby is almost 3 months old and I still have about half the pregnancy weight gain to lose on top of the initial ivf gain. With my first, I was 27 and the weight just fell off even as I would do things like eat an entire package of Tate’s cookies watching tv at night. I’m exercising, eating well which I always used to do, breastfeeding, and have totally cut out dessert and mindless snacking but nothing moves the needle. What gives?! Is this just the difference between being 27 and being 32?

    I want to feel like myself again! I bought a nice pair of jeans in a new size and some cozy sweaters to get me through the next few months but I want to be able to fit in my regular clothes again and feel like I recognize the person in the mirror. What else can I do!

    1. Enjoy your baby and remember 9 months up, 9 months down. Give yourself a break. You’ve been through a lot.

    2. I did Weight Watchers after my second pregnancy and found it to be a useful reset. I was eating pretty healthy prior but my portion sizes were way off but I was starving because I wasn’t eating enough protein. Getting that on track, plus upping my water and daily movement (the app lets you track both) was helpful. I didn’t buy any of the WW branded food, just used my regular foods/meals with some swaps and upping veggies/fruit/lean protein to make them healthier and more propionate. The WW app gives you extra points when BFing so it’s safe to do while you are BFing. I didn’t notice any change in my milk supply.

    3. For some people, BFing makes their bodies hold onto weight. It may be easier to lose once you wean. Also, even if you lost all the weight today, it would still take months or years for things to return to their previous shapes and locations, if ever. I was below my pre-pregnancy weight within three weeks after delivery, but looking back at photos my midsection was still soft and thick for the next five years or so.

       1. Yes. Prolactin changes the way your body responds to insulin.

          I’m 39, 9 months postpartum, and moving the needle is nearly impossible. Yes, a lot of it is being older.

          It took about seven months for my body to return to a place where I could lose weight. I’m a vegetarian who eats piles of vegetables, lentils, chickpeas, whole grains, all that; I’ve gone through two pairs of running sneakers since giving birth; I swim frequently; the needle barely moves. It literally took seven months for my body to get to a place where it is not clinging to weight. Nine months postpartum, my body is finally starting to act normally (i.e. health diet and exercise result in weight loss).

    4. I felt the same way 3 months postpartum, both times. You just … can’t rush this. Especially in your thirties. Your body has been through a lot and it’s going to change some more before you settle in, so to speak. I’d focus more on actions you can take to feel like yourself, rather than focusing on outcomes. And you’re doing that already, which is great!

    5. My little guy is 3 months but was not an IVF baby so I can’t speak to that impact. Everything is just so jiggly for me! Number-wise I’m about 10 pounds up from where I was pre-pregnancy, but the jiggle is not going anywhere anytime soon. I hate it more than the number on the scale.
       I gave in and bought a couple pairs of high waisted jeans in a larger size and haven’t been wearing any of my fitted shirts. Things are more contained and hidden that way. I’m glad sweater season is almost here.
       I started running again, but even my running leggings give me a B shaped belly and everything bounces. Hoping that running pulls the muscles back together some.
       I’m trying to give myself some grace and smile at my cute babbling baby, but it’s hard. I have found that if I make sure my hair and makeup looks nice, I feel less crappy about my body being different.

    6. I tried not to worry about the extra weight until baby 2 was sleeping through the night and I was done breastfeeding (13 months). Then I was able to focus on myself, eat better, and have a regular exercise routine. The weight came off 6 months after that. It’s a slog, for sure, but the struggle is real after #2. So 9 months on 19 months off, and it’s fine!

    7. No experience with IVF but had a similar experience of with weight between my first and second (also had them at similar ages as you). Maybe this isn’t helpful during pandemic times, but I started seeing a personal trainer 1x/week. She had me working so much harder than I would ever make myself, plus lots of weights / body-weight exercises that I never would have been willing or able to replicate on my own. My trainer was a dancer so we focused a lot on core strength and posture/alignment. The weight came off and I went back to work fitter than I had been pre-pregnancy. (Then got so busy I quit the trainer and gained some of it back…ha.) But even though I haven’t been consistent with exercise since then, it was a great experience and even years later I find that I’m able to spring back to some of those weight exercises more quickly and know how to have good form when I’m doing them. I’ve learned that for me, weights/body weights (pushups, squats, etc.) change my shape much more effectively than cardio.

    8. thanks! the specifics are super helpful. Being able to proof and preheat at the same time sound amazing.

       1. Hahahahaha

       2. Bun in the oven????

    9. Around 3-4 months postpartum I figured that my 15 lbs weight gain was permanent, got rid of all my old pants and many other clothes and bought new ones I loved. By 10 months post-partum, it was all gone, and I had to do everything in reverse. I did nothing different between 3 months and 10 months (and didn’t wean for another year) — my body just needed time.

22. DH and I started couples therapy (via videoconference) a few weeks ago. I put a lot of effort into selecting a therapist (highest level of Gottman training, specialty in certain specific issues, does remote sessions… these things probably don’t sound specific but it took me months to find someone). Our initial session went great. She sent us an invoice right away, $300 as expected, and we emailed a bit about scheduling our next sessions but never got them on the books. And then she…ghosted us? She gave off a bit of a frazzled, disorganized vibe, was somewhat slow to respond to emails and required me to follow up, which I viewed as annoying but acceptable and possibly typical of therapists with their own low key practice, so I gave her the benefit of the doubt for weeks. Would you try to keep scheduling? Just pay the bill and move on? I really didn’t have a Plan B therapist, DH and I are eager to continue therapy.

    1. Oh, man. That’s awful. If it’s been weeks, I would move on. I think the chances of her getting her act together are pretty slim at this point. And because I’m petty like that, I don’t think I’d pay the invoice until she contacted me again.

       1. +1. I fired my therapist last year and probably owe her hundreds of dollars. But she never got it together to bill me, and I’m not going to do her work for her. Her lack of caring/taking it seriously was a major reason that I discontinued.

    2. Pay the bill and move on. She may have a high client load right now and overestimated her ability to take on more clients. I’d pay, do a final email asking for a time to be schedule or for a recommendation of another therapist but look for someone else in the meantime as you may not hear back from her.

    3. Yes, move on. Frazzled, disorganized therapists are inevitably a disaster.

       1. +1. Bad fit. But it’s great you’re both on board with seeing someone. Just try again with someone new.

    4. This is so frustrating, especially after all the work you put in to find her, and all the personal work that goes into getting eager to continue therapy!

       I also agree with the poster above that therapists who are frazzled and disorganized are unlikely to be a successful fit. But if you got a good vibe generally, given the pandemic, I’d be willing to try to connect 1 or 2 more times than I would ordinarily. You don’t say how many times you followed up to try to confirm a date, but if you’ve followed up fewer than 3 times, I’d personally try to reach out one more time, and clearly state that while you’d like to continue working with her, you will move on if you don’t hear back within a certain time frame.

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