Wednesday’s Workwear Report: Ottoman Slouchy Sweater

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1. Inspired from the Jean’s thread yesterday… asking all plus/apple ladies to chime in!

   I am hourglass from the front, apple from the side (big belly – since ever and ever) 16w. Where the heck do I find comfortable and flattering non-skinny and non-bootcut jeans? I loved the skinnies because they were flexible, comfy and with the right top drew attention away from my belly and to my legs. I am completely lost navigating the newer styles. Where can I find something current but comfy for my size and shape?

   1. *jeans thread – autocorrect, ugh…

   2. Same shape and size, and I love the Universal Standard high waist seine jeans – they’re skinny but stretchy. I also have a pair of their wide leg jeans that are SO comfy but less “flattering” – I don’t care about that since they look and make me feel cool, but you may. Can’t recommend their stuff highly enough for people our size.

   3. I am built the same way and like Kut from the Kloth and Democracy!

      1. Thank you – any particular models?

      2. I”ve had great luck with Kut from the Kloth and Wit and Wisdom, both available at Nordstrom.

   4. Search for Wardrobe Oxygen. She does a lot of jeans try on posts. I think the “hits and misses denim edition” will give you some good pointers depending on if you’re tall/short or like different styles.

   5. Talbots has straight leg. I wear their curvy fit, but that might not be the right cut for you — I’m a pear. Their sizes go to 18 in misses and start at 14 in their womens sizes, so I expect you will find a size that fits (I find their misses 18 fits me better in jeans than their 16w). I just looked and they have 40% off today, so may be worth ordering a few pairs to try. I know Talbots often is considered for the older crowd, but I’m not a fancy label person and they fit me great, so they are my go to.

   6. Not sure if you saw my response yesterday, but as a plus size woman with a bit of a tummy: Marilyn (straight leg) jeans from NYDJ. They’re the only ones I buy! They have tummy control panels sewn into the front, but I never find them tight or restricting or uncomfortable (unlike any of the other clothes with “control” (i.e. Spanx sewn in).

      1. I totally agree on this. Seriously the most life-changing jeans. I also like they’re Sheri style–it’s still pretty straight but a little narrower than Marilyn. They’re my go-to, especially since you can find them in nearly every wash. I also order a size down. They stretch a bit after the first wear.

   7. I think of jeans as foreign to me right now ha!

2. Can anyone recommend an at home workout program I could do together with my husband?
   I used to do the Kayla Itsinis BBG program and liked that it was structured and told me exactly what to do and when to do it.
   However, it is made specifically for women (as in focussing on -ugh, hate that word -“women’s problem areas”) and I am looking for something that would work for men too.

   1. I used to do BBG with my husband too, and he enjoys it. If your husband likes it, I say keep with it.
      Otherwise, some of the P90x and T25 exercises are really good. I prefer the BBG legs workout over the P90x one and the P90x arms/shoulders (not the pushup workout!) over the BBG ones. I would not try T25 in an apartment because there is a lot of hopping around.
      I’ve also heard good things about fitness blender.

   2. FWIW, my husband, a college athlete who is still quite fit, found BBG workouts to be quite challenging and a good workout. He increased the weights for some of the exercises and I think occasionally would swap out an exercise for some pull-ups but otherwise followed it as I did. As a compromise I allowed him to blast hip hop during the workouts to give it a more “masculine” feel.

   3. I see no reason a guy couldn’t do BBG.

   4. Liift 4 on Beachbody is good – focusing on weights, definitely more of a “manly” program than other BB programs.

      1. +1 to Liift 4 – I really like that program. Also check out The Work, Morning Meltdown 100, and 21 Day Fix on Beachbody for good programs that aren’t focused on women. I think you can just buy Beachbody on Demand and get all the programs instead of buying them one at a time.

         While I really like Peloton workouts better, I do think the Beachbody programs are much better. I create my own programs with Peloton now – I make a program in Excel and then print it out so I have something to check off because I need that structure + those workouts.

      2. I love BBOD. They have lots of gender neutral workouts. T25 is my favorite when I’m in a hurry.

   5. Fitness Blender has a man and a woman doing most of their videos together

      1. +1 to Fitness Blender

   6. Try MadFit on Youtube! She may not be quite structured enough for you, but I do her videos regularly and my husband has done a few as well. Her workouts are great, and avoid all of the (imo, pretty distasteful; I know others’ opinions may differ) body-image-focused language that I’ve found with Kayla Itsinis and her ilk.

      1. +1

   7. I would still stick with BBG. That is what I do and it is extremely similar to standard CrossFit without the lifting and the same type of stuff we do in the army. The design definitely isn’t “girly”, my infantry officer husband is a big fan.

   8. Huge fan of the Nike Training Club app. Everything is free right now b/c of the pandemic. They have all sorts of workouts and programs you can follow. I do CrossFit and other barbell sports and love how easy it is to do for newbies all the way to gym rats. You can also use equipment or do it equipment free. I find it a good sub for my cardio needs when I can’t get to the gym.

   9. Les mills on demand features both guys and girls in every class. Euro pop music, lots of Australian/NZ/German accents.en espanol also if you want

3. I’ve been seeing this guy since about September who I met on a dating app. He is definitely more into it than I am. We haven’t talked about being exclusive or anything. In the past I’ve definitely ended things early for no good reason or shied away from commitment or just not wanted to keep dating someone if it wasn’t 100% perfect, so I’ve been trying not to get in my own way and to give him the benefit of the doubt for a while. I know I’m not perfect either, I definitely have some annoyances others deal with. So, for once, I honestly wanted the guy to break up with me, not the other way around. Because at least that way I wouldn’t throw away a thing that actually existed.

   Anyways, I’m not sure what to do at this point. I again feel like I don’t want to end things with someone who is still into it, but I’m getting less into it. We haven’t done the deed, and there are no corona risks or anything here. I definitely like things about him, but we don’t have those long conversations or 24 hour dates that others post about here, and being able to have long conversations is actually important to me.

   Any advice on dealing with this? I’m in my mid-20s if that makes a difference.

   1. You’ve given it more than enough time. End it! It’s not fair to him.

      1. +1. Also, not being excited about someone is a great reason to break up, and having a pattern of doing this is a great sign about your self-knowledge and self-value. Nothing is wrong here!

         1. I guess I’ve just internalized people telling me I’m being too picky or that’s why I’m single etc.

            1. Do not listen to those people, ever.

            2. Strong agree. If those other people want to pursue joyless, unsatisfying relationships, they can go right ahead. But I feel bad for their partners.

            3. I’m 100% willing to be picky AF re: my partner. I have friends who b!tch and moan about their husbands and partners. No thanks. I’d rather be single!!

            4. I think when people say don’t be too picky, they mean don’t rule people out because they don’t have the exact height, level of education, and interests you have. My partner and I probably weren’t a great match on paper, but after 30 minutes of awkward chitchat we ended up hitting it off and having a fantastic first date. But if you’ve been out with person several times and still aren’t excited, you’re doing both of you a kindness by ending it.

            5. Agreed with everyone else – don’t listen to these people. I’m back in the game in my mid-30s following a divorce. I wish I hadn’t listened to people who told me to be less picky. It would have saved me a divorce from someone who is a very good person, and not the right partner for me.

               This time around if I’m not enthusiastic/am not getting more enthusiastic the longer I talk to someone, then I’m ending it. Truly, it’s better for everyone in the long run.

   2. You’ve given it 2 months! That is more than fair. If you’re not feeling a spark or connection by now, call it off.

   3. You don’t like him. Be a good person. Break up with him.

   4. Don’t lead him on! The kind thing to do is to end it. It may not feel “nice” in the moment, but genuine kindness is more important than fake “niceness.” Please do not put this off any longer.

      1. Agree with all of the others. It does not matter if you’ve “done the deed” or not. You have determined he is not for you, so just end it. My guess is he is a pretty nice guy and you feel bad for him not getting anywhere with you, but the question you must ask yourself is:

         “Do you feel bad enough to give him a sympathy F***k”?

         I doubt it, and even if you were willing to extend that privilege to this shmoe, you really shouldn’t in this COVID era. Even nice guys get COVID and spread it, so if you want to remain disease free (and alive) please keep your knees together. The only exception should be for a guy you know you are really into. Only then should you allow such a man into you. You are young and presumably still very cute, so other guys are out there and will materialize. It would be a little different if you were my age and the quality and quantity of decent men were deminimis. I therefore say let this harmless yutz down easy! YAY!!

   5. When I was app dating, I was dating with marriage in mind and I wanted a spark on the first date. I had married a nice guy in the days before apps, and we eventually parted ways simply because “nice” wasn’t enough to base a marriage on for us. I wanted somebody I was crazy about – because I deserved to have a spouse I was crazy about! I went on something like 3 first dates a week for 7 months ? There were only 3 guys who got second dates. And then I met my now-husband and KNEW from the first date. We’ve been married 3 years now and are still wild about each other – I’m genuinely happy (and so, so grateful) to see this human every single day. We both had had meh marriages for a decade, which is its own sad disappointment. You deserve to have someone you’re crazy about, and so does he. Keep going until you meet somebody you’re crazy about ?

      1. This gives me hope. I’ve been on a similar trajectory (nice first husband, tons of first dates pre-covid, fewer since). I had a good second date just this week, and I’m excited about a person for the first time in more than a decade.

   6. This isn’t the advice you’ve asked for, but it’s the advice I’m going to give:

      “In the past I’ve definitely ended things early for no good reason or shied away from commitment or just not wanted to keep dating someone if it wasn’t 100% perfect,”

      There are two types of people like you: those who are genuinely waiting for the right person (and will literally be engaged within six months of meeting) and those who are commitmentphobes with unrealistic expectations. I can’t tell you which camp you fall into; only you can. If you are ending things for “no good reason,” chances are it’s the latter.

      I have been told many times in my life that I am “too hard” on men, and, in retrospect, it was a horrible and sexist thing to say. Character matters, and I’m not obligated to throw myself at someone just because he’s interested. That said, there are actually women who do not actually want commitment, and the classic way to achieve that without facing reality is to have really bizarre standards.

      1. I really do not think I have “bizarre standards”. Nothing about height, not picky about how prestigious their job or college is. I’m honestly a pretty nerdy girl myself, so I’m not about to be down on someone else for that. I’m looking for someone who is, in fact, passionate about something in their life, whether thats their job or hobby or charity work or something else. Someone interested in politics or in social good in general, someone who takes initiative (I take initiative too), and, as you said, who has good character. And, oh, who I am decently physically attracted to, although for me if I’m mentally attracted to them that often makes someone physically attractive too.

         Maybe this is unrealistic, who knows. I would love nothing more to meet someone who is a good fit and get engaged within 6 months – I’ve even said my mother could set me up with church friends. Because if I meet a great guy from there, that’s fantastic, even if its not the most common. And I’m also definitely dating for marriage, which at least I know these church friends are doing too.

         The only thing that I know others brush away but I cannot stand is being mansplained to. I work in a field where everyone thinks they know everything about it and can put their 2 cents in, and thats fine, but please respect my professional experience.

         This level of committment is also something I’m newly interested in. The guy who I last “shied away from commitment” with was too much, too soon at that time (about 2 years ago) but if I were dating him now I think I would be more okay with how things (meet the extended family, come to a holiday event) were going.

         1. Still sounds just peachy to me. As for not being ready for a serious commitment 2 years ago: you were in your early 20’s. That’s fine and normal.

         2. I’m glad you see what I’m driving at with “bizarre standards.” I personally know people who won’t date men who make less than a half-million a year, are older than they are, and are never married. Sure, maybe the guy exists, but it sounds like a convenient way of not having to be emotionally intimate with anyone.

            Then there’s women who make up rules that don’t exist – my fav is “you can’t get engaged when a member of your family or his family is also engaged.” I am all about not announcing your engagement at your brother’s wedding or the week after your sister gets engaged, but you cannot randomly block out years of your life in which you don’t get engaged because someone else is engaged.

            Then there’s the women who say things like “no facial hair,” and then they assume that once they marry a man with a beard, any woman who has character-and-intellectual standards must “let go” of her preconceived notions of what she wants in a guy. “I let go of my standards and got married!” Your standards were stupid.

4. any favorite banana recipes? asked for 4 on instacart but got 4 bunches!! i am not great at baking!

   1. Banana bread (with chocolate chips, depending on how into banana you are)! I liked the kitchn recipe

   2. Flour Bakery’s “Famous” Banana Bread! One of my favorites :)

   3. We made banana bread waffles last weekend (from the food network’s website). Super easy and very tasty!

      Ripe bananas also freeze well, so you can chuck some in the freezer to make banana bread or whatever later. They will get black and gross looking on the outside, but the inside is still fine.

      1. Re: Freezing — Peel them first! Also, frozen bananas are our household’s “ice cream”

      2. or for smoothies

         1. Frozen banana + lime juice + mint + rum = very tasty frozen banana mojito!

            1. oh my god….

            2. this has changed my life. or at least the happy hour portion of my day :)

   4. Banana bread from a box mix. No baking talent required, just mix it up per the instructions and add a mashed banana (overripe if possible) or two. There’s no shame in using a mix, and it will be delicious.

   5. Peanut butter banana baked oatmeal from Family food on the table’s blog. I like to add chocolate chips and about a cup of extra oatmeal to make it more of a bar.
      It freezes really well too.

   6. If you’re going to bake with them, wait until they get super ripe (starting to turn black). At that point, you can freeze them and they’ll last for months and can be used in banana bread or muffins. I prefer to peel them before freezing (stick them in ziploc freezer bags), but you can also freeze them in their peels.

      Otherwise I might make a bunch of bananas foster or caramelized bananas and eat it on ice cream or waffles/pancakes or pretty much anything. For that, you’d want them ripe, but still holding their shape. I think a big batch of it would hold up in the fridge for up to week.

   7. Cut them up into coins and dip half in melted chocolate. Refrigerate. Can also make popsicles this way.

      Mash them up and mix with eggs for banana pancakes. Search “2-ingredient banana pancakes” from The Kitchn.

      Throw them in a food processor or blender then freeze. Banana “ice cream”

      Bananas Foster- throw em in a skillet with butter, brown sugar, rum, cinnamon and a squeeze of lime or lemon at the end. Serve over vanilla ice cream.

   8. Wait until they are ripe, then peel and freeze. The frozen ones are a bit ugly but make a great smoothie base.

   9. when they ripen, peel, slice and freeze for smoothies

   10. Freeze for smoothies. Can use frozen banana in place of some ice. Be sure to peel first.

       1. +1, freeze for smoothies. Cookie and Kate’s healthy banana muffin recipe is also really tasty and easy.

   11. I’d freeze whatever you don’t want to eat fresh for smoothies and baking projects as mentioned above. I like to peel them before tossing them in the freezer and usually freeze them in bags of 2-3. For easy baking projects: Smitten Kitchen’s ultimate banana bread recipe and banana pancakes (there’s a million recipes online).

   12. Banana cream pie or Joanna Gaines’ banana bread!

   13. If you don’t want to bake, give them to friend or neighbors? I’m gluten free and anytime I accidentally buy something with gluten, my neighbor happily takes it off my hands.

   14. Recently developed what I think is an allergy to or intolerance of bananas. Has anyone experienced this?

       1. I cannot eat bananas and neither can my mom. The allergy developed later in life for both of us but my throat starts closing up when it’s in my mouth and my stomach hurts if I eat it (my mom threw up the last time she had one). I’ve never loved bananas so they’re easy for me to avoid.

5. Tell me about the best vacation you’ve ever had!

   Travel is definitely on my to-do list when we are fully on the other side of the pandemic and I want to start researching/fantasizing now.

   1. Italy trip-Rome for 4 days, Florence for 3 days, Tuscany for 2 days.

   2. Solo trip to Peru – stayed in cool hostels, went to Machu Pichu, had a fantastic time
      Japan – really felt like I was going into a completely different world, blend of modernity and tradition, would not want to live there but really cool to visit.

      1. I have to canceled that trip due pandemic, really interested in the “cool hostels” part or any other tip. Thanks!

      2. That sounds amazing. I’ve always wanted to go to Machu Pichu but don’t have anyone to travel there with. Japan is on my bucket list too

   3. Revisiting Paris after the first “dutiful tourist” version. Spending a week doing exactly as we pleased (a mix of smaller sights that were actually more interesting to us than the Louvre, wandering and lingering in cafes, and wine-tasting) was far more romantic and relaxing than our first (3-day) blitz of All The Things.

      1. OMG we are planning just this for post pandemic! Tell me everything! What were some amazing hidden gems? Most romantic?

   4. Amsterdam right before Christmas, with a 2-day side trip to Cologne to see the Christmas markets. It was so romantic, the lights were dazzling, the food was yummy, it wasn’t TOO cold… I’m also dying to see Amsterdam in the springtime to see the tulips in bloom.

      If you just want to veg out with your partner, I can’t recommend Excellence Playa Mujeres in Cancun enough. I’m not an all-inclusive person normally but they really do it right.

      1. OMG, we did the EXACT same trip Amsterdam/Cologne trip in 2019. It was magical, and I would go back to Germany for the Christmas markets in a heartbeat. So much fun!

   5. Toss up between Italy–Venice, Florence, Rome– and a safari to Tanzania we took for our honeymoon. Both amazing in different ways.

      But all I want to do right now is go to Vieques and lay on Blue Beach without another human in sight and do nothing for about a week.

   6. I can’t pick just one favorite (travel is my thing). Top vacations have been Antarctica, Italy (Florence – we went to Rome and Venice as well but those weren’t my personal favorites),Moscow and St. Petersburg, New Zealand (South Island), Namibia and safari in Maasai Mara/Ngorongoro Crater

      1. 1. I love this thread
         2. Could you talk more about your Moscow and St. Petersburg trip?? That’s high on my future/fantasy list!

         1. I went for my 21st birthday (more than 15 years ago, using all my savings and birthday money at the time), so I’m not sure how helpful this will be. At the time, the only way I could find to do it was with an organized tour and I had to travel on my non-US passport due to visa issues. I’m anti-tour and had travelled in Europe on my own, but the tour seemed necessary because I couldn’t independently book hotels and once I was there I found the guide really necessary since I didn’t speak any Russian and things were not what I would describe as tourist friendly at all. Also, I have a general recollection of it not being especially safe while we were there. There wasn’t a lot of wandering that you could do on your own and being out a night alone didn’t seem to be a good idea. The tour only had about 10 people so it was fine. We took the overnight sleeper train between Moscow and St. Petersburg and that was an experience — open toilets to the track below on the train. While there I did all the touristy things. In Moscow I went to Red Square, Lenin’s Mausoleum, St. Basil’s Cathedral, the Kremlin, and road around on the metro which had amazing tile decoration and chandeliers. I think there is a lot more to see now, so I’d like to go back, particularly related to the WWII history and the Russian space program. In St. Petersburg we went to the Hermitage and the Grand Peterhof Palace. I think I spent a day at each. Now there is a Faberge museum as well, and I’d love to see that.

   7. Domestically – husband and I flew into San Diego, rented a car and drove up the coast to SF. We found a bunch of hotels along the way, ate at seaside restaurants and really enjoyed our time together. We stretched it out to 5 days. I remember thinking Santa Barbara was my favorite of our stops, but all of it was amazing.

   8. Sao Miguel in the Azores! My favorite flowers (hydrangeas) were in full bloom, and we really enjoyed our day hikes, the great food and wine, and the thermal pools. It was such a beautiful island, and I loved that it wasn’t too touristy.

      1. Montreal was another place I loved. We went in the winter, and it was magical. I can’t wait to go back and enjoy another day at a Scandinavian spa, wandering around the old part of the city, etc.

      2. that was my last international vacation last September! The food was so amazing. I really did not like Pico, which brought my overall feelings of the trip down. I personally think I liked Croatia or Belize best!

   9. Top three — road trip to New Zealand, South Africa (mostly Cape Town) and Baltic cruise — especially the fjords in Norway. My happy place is along any coast and these were all spectacularly beautiful.

      1. +1 Hiking one of the Great Walks on New Zealand’s South Island! Then heading to Christchurch and wine country in Napier.

   10. Thailand.

       Went to a resort in Krabi province. Rented a private boat for a day to go to some remote islands – it was so beautiful. Another day we spent kayaking through the mangroves.
       Then hopped on a plane to spend 3 days in Kuala Lumpur, and then returned to Bangkok for another 5 days. From there, we took a day trip by train to the ancient temple ruins of Ayuthaya.

   11. The most exotic trip I ever took was to North Korea (aka DPRK).
       We went on a guided group tour with the company Koryo Tours from Beijing, as guides are mandatory. Flew into Pjongyang, took the sleeper train back to Beijing.
       It was eye-opening in so many ways.
       At the time (2012) it was possible for US passport holders to take this trip, I don’t know whether that would be possible now. I am not a US citizen but there were a few Americans on the trip who absolutely loved the experience. (And, no, they do not stamp your passport in North Korea, so you should not have trouble upon returning.)

   12. Portugal – Porto and the Douro Valley and then Lisbon and Sintra. I don’t know if I’ve ever had a more perfect trip.

       A very close second: Pacific Coast Highway road trip – starting in LA and going all the way to Mendocino along the coast, then inland to the Avenue of the Giants and back down to Sonoma.

   13. Road trips around Slovenia/Scotland/Norway. Amazing nature, fun cities, you can see so much in a short amount of time.

       1. I read this initially to mean you took one road trip around those countries, and I was very confused–or sure you were.

          I road-tripped across Scotland, from St. Andrews to Isle of Skye and back to Edinburgh, in July 2019, and it was so, so beautiful.

   14. Argetina- Flew into Buenos Aires and spent a day and a half there, then flew down to Mendoza for four days in the Uco Valley, then up to Corrientes to stay near the Parque Iberá (jungle wetlands) and to see the Iguazu falls, then back to BA to stay in the Palermo Soho neighborhood for a few days. I was exhausted at the end but it was SO fun – Buenos Aires is now one of my favorite cities in the world.

   15. Iceland. Not only breathtakingly gorgeous, but progressive, clean, and safe. I hate road trips but darn if I didn’t enjoy driving on perfectly paved roads past wild horses, glaciers, waterfalls, and so many other wonderful things I don’t see in my everyday life. Reykjavik is cool and modern and the small towns and cities around the country are so picturesque and interesting. Would go back in a heartbeat if I could.

   16. Couple of weeks in New Zealand, both islands. Hiking, camping, drinking great wine, exploring glaciers. Just awesome.

       Colombia — Bogota, Medellin, and Cartagena. Great weather, great music, beautiful country.

       Vietnam, traveling from HCMC to Hanoi. Stunning landscapes, outstanding food.

       1. Was enough two weeks to go to hike in NZ?

   17. I want to go ice climbing in Norway. For now I am just watching videos of ice climbing in Norway (and they are spectacular and very intense!).

   18. Two weeks in Oman last November, traveling north to south, celebrating an achievement.

   19. 24 days in Argentina, mainly Patagonia. From Ushuaia to the North: El chaltén, Perito Moreno, W in Torres del Paine and then Iguazú and Buenos Aires. I am a huge fan of hiking and this trip was a long awaited dream for me. (I agree that BA is an amazing city, next time Mendoza area)

       Second in the ranking is a round trip in Scotland from Edinburgh to Stirling, Sky, Inverness, etc. I have to go back, it was amazing, but we only spent one night in each place when you need a minimum of 2-3 days in each. area to walk a bit.

       And third Moroco. I have been twice, first in Chef Chauen and the Rif and the second time in the desert and the southern part. Amazing country, food people. And so cheap.

       These has been the trips that when I finished I thought “I have to back”. And London, I felt in love with the city first time I went. I remember thinking “I would love to live here” and so did it.

   20. ICELAND. Probably too late but I’ve been to Iceland twice now (once in summer, once in winter) and can go on and on about how great it is.

6. The women in my family (sisters and SILs) are starting a virtual bookclub to help weather – everything. I wanted to have some wine glasses etched with our family name and some reference to the book club, but have no idea where to start. Google tells me of lots of services that will do this – if you have used any and can recommend, will you let me know?

   Thanks!

   1. No specific recommendation but lots of places on Etsy do this!

   2. Maybe Etsy or Uncommon Goods.

   3. Gosh I cannot for the life of me remember the name but one of the main wedding sites has a product section that specializes in these gifts with names. They would not be expensive/ high quality but they are super reliable.

   4. OP here – you are right about the tons of places on Etsy. Actually decided to go with one of the Yeti wine coolers – that way I don’t need to worry about the quality of glass and mailing them. Thanks!

   5. Fun alternative idea: some of those virtual paint nite classes do virtual paint nite on wine glasses, so you guys can do a session to kick off your book club by painting your own!

7. As a non-American it had not even occurred to me that educated women could believe they are lesser than men due to religious beliefs. The thread yesterday about the pastor really opened by eyes (in a bad way). So I ask you mostly wise ladies, is this a common belief among your circles?

   1. Absolutely not and I would not be friends with anyone who even entertained such thoughts.

   2. Well, there is always our newest Supreme Court justice.

   3. Nope. I sometimes hear a little of it from mommy bloggers in that area (like referring to their husband as the spiritual leader of their household) but most definitely not IRL.

   4. I think it’s really cultural and location dependent. I’m an Episcopalian in the northeast so never once crossed my mind. Most people I know are / were raised Episcopalian or Catholic and would never believe that (even though I don’t believe the Catholic Church treats women equally). I think that type of thought I’d more common in more conservative / “traditional” locations with a more Evangelical influence.

      1. I’m an Episcopalian and I think we specialize in being vocally-woke, but really miss the mark in reality (in my church, the mom/younger kid events are during the day, during the week, as if no mothers work? as if it’s the 1950s? the men’s stuff is at 7am or 7pm if weekday and otherwise is on weekends).

         1. Episcopalian on the West Coast and I’ve been surprised at how much we’ve had to advocate for changes to that kind of thing in my own church. (The “we” being other women with kids.) Our clergy was immediately receptive, but the initial cluelessness was pretty amazing.

            1. For mine, 90% of the church has grandparents using ed/med gifts to send their kids to private and boarding schools (even the rectors). And they bring in an outside speaker to confirm their wokeness and to rail against the end of court-ordered busing. Mind you, that with busing, white parents started the private schools their grandkids now attend (all have their 50th anniversaries this year and are celebrating them sans irony) and left the system, never to return. Schools are now too black/brown to even think of integrating them in a meaningful way and largely fail poor kids (TBH, I’m not sure how much schools can do to move the needle as it seems to be a community/parent component that looms large in outcomes, especially now that kids aren’t even in school). But whatevs. My kids actually go to public schools and I’m held up as the bad guy b/c I’m a white public school parent who just wants all the stuff for my kids. I just can’t with these people.

            2. Wow, that sounds awful. Our church’s kid are about 75% public, 25% private, and even the private school parents are polite enough not to act like the public school people are the bad guys.

         2. I think a lot of this is because many programs are volunteer run. And that reflects who has initiated the different events.

            1. That can be true, but I found it tremendously hard to established patterns changed at our church.

               For instance, there was NO reason that all of the Sunday School teachers had to be the mothers of kids IN the Sunday School, but our old Director of Christian Education felt that was the only way to choose teachers. That had always been the way, so why should we change it to accommodate women like me? (Of course, she was also the person who told me I shouldn’t work outside the home when my kids were small…)

   5. I didn’t always live in the US. I’m not sure why Americans would be held to this standard? In my prior country, women couldn’t even drive (and many of them in cities were allowed an education though and literacy generally isn’t a problem). A lot of the world sees women as less-than (e.g., check out where the birth rates of boy babies are much > than the rates of girl babies — those are areas with access to ultrasound and even if they are allowed a second baby after the birth of a girl, are often still choosing to abort babies just because of they are girls). Education is not the same as culture — many cultures see women as less-than, as they have for eons.

      I finally saw the WAP video over the weekend and I guess overall I’m sad that when women aren’t legally subject to restrictions based on gender, there is a lot of stupid stuff out there that isn’t really good and impacts women negatively. I’d like to see the glorification of something like . . . studying math (Hidden Figures) than something like WAP on heavy rotation, especially since I have daughters (no sons at this point).

      1. I have to agree with you regarding WAP and the like. A lot of what is portrayed as women’s empowerment is actually just pandering to men. Many of the “freedoms” and “choices” women claim are just excuses for men to get what they want without consequences.

      2. I agree, I’m confused that this comment was prefaced with something about being from outside the U.S. Part of my family is Vietnamese Catholic and while they are certainly progressive on women’s rights in many ways, I’ve been to my share of weddings where the Adam’s rib selection was read from the Bible as a call to the bride to serve her husband. If anything, the women have enjoyed more opportunities and evolved their views as they immigrate here to the States.

      3. You don’t have to like WAP, but it isn’t stopping anyone from encouraging girls to study math.

         1. Well, I spent a lot of time distracted. Was that Kylie Jenner? What happened to the original Kylie Jenner? I mean, there is having work done and then there’s this.

            IRL, I realized that I could never convert to being Catholic b/c I really do not believe a lot of the dogma even though I am from a very Catholic area (but one where women flipping over tables in anger happens) and am culturally OK with mainstream Catholic lifestyles (like pizza on Fridays or fish). My take on Adam’s Rib is that clearly that was a rough draft and women are the beta version of humans, but whatevs.

      4. WAP is awesome, and basically satire + a good beat + an FU toward respectability politics.

   6. No. I know no women like this. This is a very specific subculture, kind of like gun culture, that doesn’t apply to most of the US.

      1. Spoken like a true stay-at-home wife.

         1. Wtf, anonymous?

            1. Shh. Just let her give us another speech about the group of elite Florida Republicans she’s made her bed with. Do they really support female empowerment?

            2. This is such a bizarre comment. I do not even understand what you’re trying to critique here.

            3. It’s her creepy stalker who is completely disgusting and cruel.

      2. Concur. This is a very niche subculture. It’s not mainstream at all and is not the way of life for 98% or more of American women. (And I say that as someone with evangelical family.)

         (No idea what anon at 10:14 is talking about.)

         1. This doesn’t seem correct at all. There is plenty of research on how women and girls are culturally discouraged from blue collar breadwinner careers and from STEM careers among women who attend college or university. And when women have entered prestige careers in significant numbers, the position itself often loses prestige, power, and relative pay.

            1. +1

            2. Yeah, I would actually argue that some of what is getting attributed to conservative Christians here is actually pervasive throughout American culture and that we’re a bit in denial if we think these pressures are limited to those contexts. When I was a law student in NYC and newly engaged to a private equity guy, one of his business partners asked if I was planning to finish law school, and gave him a talk about how hard it would be for me to have a demanding legal career while “supporting” him (i.e., taking care of all family/household responsibilities, bc obviously he would be too busy). The PNW law firm where I started my career had a VERY sexist portion of our orientation on alternative career path stuff that was very clearly targeted to women and that so clearly assumed that women would need to step off the partner track to prioritize other things (and that was only the beginning of a trend of not treating women as partner material).

               And no matter how many of us claim our partners equally share childcare, household work, etc., the stats even for white-collar professionals suggest that they don’t. Women still do more.

               Not to minimize in any way the s*xism present in many conservative Christian communities, but this stuff is everywhere, even in more liberal/progessive circles/cities/etc.

            3. +1

      3. What on EARTH are you talking about? I’m not in bed with any Florida Republicans. I’m disappointed in my / husband’s family members who are and I’ve expressed that opinion many times. I think they were foolish, self-centered and money-hungry. Find me a quote on here where I support / supported a vote for Trump. Go ahead. I’ll be waiting right here.

      4. I’m saying that I personally don’t know any women who are “subservient” to a spouse and then I’m told spoken like a true SAH wife? What are you trying to say?

         1. You identify strongly with a particular set of people yet you are sure you can speak for the entire US. You are surrounded by Trump supporters but you don’t think women are oppressed. Finally, you are decorating your guest room while your husband is idolized at work. The last part is the only part that makes sense.

            1. “You identify strongly with a particular set of people yet you are sure you can speak for the entire US. You are surrounded by Trump supporters but you don’t think women are oppressed.”

               Huh? I’m not surrounded by Trump supporters. I live in a blue county in a blue state. My closest friends and family here all voted blue.

               “Finally, you are decorating your guest room while your husband is idolized at work. The last part is the only part that makes sense.”

               Huh? How is my husband idolized at work? By whom? He does the job he’s trained to do like thousands of healthcare professionals, which in his case does involve some care of Covid patients.

               You’re a little off.

         2. Don’t even bother engaging with your brain-damaged stalker. There’s no hope.

      5. It is a specific subculture, but are you sure it doesn’t apply to most of the US? Or does it just not apply to most of the people you interact with?

   7. Religions don’t always tell women they are “lesser”, but even when they don’t they tell them they are “different” (i.e. blessed with domestic skills) so it’s equally damaging

      1. I know quite a few Christian women who believe that women and men are different and operate under a “let Papa kill the bear” philosophy–in other words, let the less competent men think they are in charge so they feel good about themselves, then quietly make everything happen behind the scenes because women are in fact smarter and more competent than men.

      2. Yes, I grew up in an evangelical Christian environment and would agree with this. Men were expected to “lead” the women.

   8. Admittedly, I did not read the whole pastor thread, and I suspect it took a bit of a turn from the first few posts I saw. I wouldn’t say I know anyone who believes they are “lesser” because of religion. I do know people who believe that men and women have different roles within the family based on religion. None of these women are unhappy or feel “lesser”.

      1. But, they’re lesser because according to some religions, for example, they were made from Adam’s rib to stand by him & help him … he’s the boss. It’s very disempowering.

      2. Maybe they are unhappy and feel lesser or maybe they’ve accepted their fate. There’s also a strong culture of women putting on a happy face, always being pleasant, or “being sweet.” For example, the Duggar women speaking in soft “feminine” childlike voices.

         1. As an aside, I am getting an intern who is going to be working for school credit so I’m supposed to mentor her. She absolutely speaks in this demure girly way. She is an aspiring lawyer. I’m guessing I’m to have to have a few conversations with her about projecting authority but I’m not sure how to (or if I should) comment on her voice. I’d love to give her a copy of Nice Girls Dont Get the Corner Office but I know a lot of people take issue (some rightly so) with that book. Thoughts?

            1. I personally wouldn’t comment on her voice. It’s highly likely that she is very aware of how she sounds/her voice quality and pointing it out would probably just make her self-conscious. And ultimately, she can’t change her voice. And projecting authority does not have to mean sounding less feminine. Not the same thing, but I’ve always looked young and have been self-conscious about it as people treat me like a child, but there really is nothing I can do about it – makeup and dress can only do so much. and when it’s pointed out it doesn’t make me feel more confident – it just reaffirms my insecurities.
               If you want to be a help, you could offer to to share what’s worked “for you” as a lawyer who has had to project confidence and authority, without saying specifically that her voice is problematic. A kind of “tips & tricks” session.
               Appreciate you caring so much about your intern!

            2. I was thinking the opposite–she’s probably mostly unaware of how she sounds, but if she’s young, it may change over time anyway?

            3. Great tips, Mal! Thank you!

      3. Yeah, I know a lot of women who live in complementarian households and are quite happy. Not all of those women are Christian (I have a Muslim friend who comes from a complementarian viewpoint as well), although those that are Christian are generally from an evangelical background. I don’t hold to that perspective (theologically or otherwise), but it’s not actually that uncommon and while it might be easy for many of us to assume that those women are brainwashed or secretly unhappy or whatever, that’s not the case in my experience.

         That said, in general, if you don’t hold complementarian beliefs, no one these days is forcing you to organize your life or your family that way, so people who do live that way are typically people who are happy doing so.

         Finally, in my experience, there is a pretty big delta between complementarian ideas and the way these women live their lives day to day. They may believe that women are not validly called to ordained ministry and that their husband is the spiritual head of the family; that doesn’t mean their husband is a dictator who makes all decisions in the family. I mean, when I was a kid my mom told me that my dad was the spiritual head of the family and my parents have one of the most egalitarian marriages I’ve ever seen. My mom worked almost my entire life (with a short break when I was 3-6 where she was a part-time grad student and SAHM), my dad was my primary caregiver for most of my childhood, and my mother’s career, although less prestigious and less well-compensated was never treated as less important within my family.

         1. This is a really good point. You can have good people who genuinely love each other and are in a complementarian marriage that makes them happy. There are lots of people like that, and also lots of people who would agree that men and women are “different” or have complementary roles but then actually live somewhere between perfect egalitarianism and a strict hierarchy.

            The danger of the complementarian ideology is how quickly and severely it can become dangerous in the hands of an abusive (or even just inconsiderate) man. That remains true even if many women are happy in their particular complementarian relationships.

            1. Yes, it can be dangerous as a community outlook. Imagine the “head of the household” is a narcissist, and then the couple goes to get marriage counseling from a complementarian counselor… Churches in general are often very naive and easy for bad faith actors to manipulate.

               It’s also unfortunate that communities become segregated along these lines, since even if every woman in a complementarian marriage and a domestic role is happy in a given community, it’s unlikely that every daughter will want the same future for herself!

            2. Yup. And there are so many examples out there of the negative ramifications of this, ranging from spiritual abuse to s*xual/physical abuse. For example, I’d argue that child abuse crises in Christian communities were often facilitated by the fact that women who tried to raise concerns were not heard or were actively silenced because they were part of institutions that systematically devalued women’s voices. And of course, if you are raised in a complementarian world but it DOESN’T work for you, your family/social relationships may suffer if you choose to live your life in a different way (or you may actually be ostracized, depending on how your community views apostasy).

   9. Yes this is mostly true in very evangelical communities in some parts of the US. I’m in NYC and have never met anyone who, to my knowledge, thought this way.

      1. Right. Evangelical is a subculture in the US, that for some reason thinks that they define “mainstream.”

      2. I’m in NYC and people here think this just as much as people do in the rural area I’m from. It’s everywhere and it’s not always stated directly, but it’s in the expectations & opportunities & cultural norms. Conversely, not everyone in certain communities believes it either.

   10. Very common. I was raised Catholic though I realize as an adult that my family was more liberal than some, and I didn’t feel minimized or less than. However, I grew up around a lot of evangelicals and Baptists and yes, absolutely, there is a strong belief that women are inferior to men. Even adult women talk about this “complementarian” nonsense and how their husbands are the decision makers.

   11. No one would say that women are lesser or inferior. But believing that women and men have different roles and that women should “obey” or “submit” to men’s leadership or “support” men as leaders? Very, very common in American religious circles.

       1. I can attest to this personally. While I no longer associate with those circles intentionally, I grew up in them and am adjacent to them now due to geographic proximity and family connections. College was seen as a way for a women to get her MRS degree, working outside the home was only a Thing if the man was disabled or a deadbeat, and having an opinion was fine but only if the husband approved of it.

          So glad I escaped that world. And furious that it still exists.

          1. Yes, 100% exists in Christian denominations, including Catholic. Raised Catholic and went to Catholic school, high school and college…I encountered some of these women along the way and 1-2 in my family that “submitted” to their husband, he is the decision maker, etc and this was a woman with a Masters degree!…..I detest it and my assessment is that is some kind of passive aggressive, frankly is a way to justify those women that didn’t want to jump into a career and are ok with not taking responsibility for decisions (they certainly had lots to say behind the scenes about those decisions…plenty of complaining). It is a new trend called Radical Traditional Catholics….read about it and you’ll be very disappointed.

             1. My family is Catholic, and to say that the average Catholic believes this garbage is just untrue. Catholics generally believe what mainstream America believes.

             2. These Catholics certainly exist, but as someone who was raised Catholic and grew up in a very Catholic area, I’ve only ever witnessed this flavor of fundie Catholicism with the idea of submission online from fringe groups (Opus Dei comes to mind). That’s not common, and I think most Catholics would be horrified by that sort of relationship. Now, does the Catholic Church perpetuate inequality and misogyny through its beliefs and practices? Oh h3ll yes.

             3. Grew up with a lot of Catholics; they aren’t like this, they are mainstream. Don’t confuse the ACB flavor with everyday American Catholicism.

             4. I was raised Catholic and also encountered the rad trads, as well as many who didn’t have any special labels or affiliations (Opus Dei, Latin Mass, etc.) but held similarly authoritarian beliefs.

                In my experience, this isn’t at all representative of your average American Catholic, but these communities do exist in pockets all over the place and they are hard to identify from the outside because there’s not a consistent identifier. Some homeschool, some have formal affiliations, some have two working parents and kids in public school who wear skinny jeans. I think there are a lot more people with these beliefs than those outside those communities realize.

             5. This does not describe any of the rad trad Catholics I know.

       2. +1 to this. Raised Mormon in Utah and this is very much the culture.

       3. Yes. In my area, I see this a lot among the Evangelical, fundamentalist, and Catholic circles. (The Catholic diocese in my area is notoriously conservative; I know it’s not a widespread thing.) I’m one of those godless Methodists and have no such beliefs about submitting to my husband.

          1. I grew up Catholic and never saw it. There is such a reverence for Mary and motherhood in the Catholic Church. But many conservative Protestant churches in my area do focus on submitting to your husband or the husband being the head of the family.

             1. +1. It’s also entirely possible to view a culture/religion from the outside and make assumptions that are different than what the religion actually believes (and to judge a religion based on a few fringe characters rather than official doctrine)

       4. As a childless woman who works, I don’t know many Evangelicals now, but when I lived in the midwest years ago, Focus on the Family and Promise Keepers were mainstream household names among Evangelicals. There was a lot of concern that women “working outside the home” was undermining men and contributing to increasing divorce rates, for example. (And it’s characteristic that they ignored financial duress as a potential confounder!) Less mainstream were movements like Quiverfull, but the existence of Quiverfull in my view helped other patriarchy movements legitimize themselves as less extreme by comparison.

          1. This is just one influential American religious subculture… But even in other denominations where those evangelical movements would be unwelcome, the culture can be very split. For example, it may be viewed as socially awkward if a woman chooses to join the men in talking about theology, history, or science at a church social, as opposed to talking to other women about domestic life, because that’s just not how things are done in a given congregation.

             1. Oy. My in-laws (originally from NY, liberal democrats) briefly lived in a rural conservative southern town in a subdivision. While visiting, we went to some neighborhood cookouts. Since I work outside the home and don’t have kids, I tended to chat more with the men than the woman. I talked to the women too but I lingered longer in some of the male groups. Apparently I was the talk of the town for awhile for talking to the husbands. Never mind that I was there with my husband and my in-laws. I can’t imagine having to navigate that kind of social scene. Luckily, my in-laws thought it was funny an they were not upset I tarnished their reputation. My MIL was actually proud of me. She was stirring some $hit long after I left by always referring to me as her daughter-in-law the lawyer LOL.

                Please know I’m not judging the whole south from this experience. It was a very isolated and strange community they ended up in.

          2. Many of these Evangelicals grew up, experienced life, and realized what they were brought up with was a sham. Consequently, their lives may have even become more sordid than the average.

          3. What’s fascinating is that given that evangelicals tend to be lower-income than mainline Christians, I suspect it’s actually MORE likely for women to work at least part-time outside the home in evangelical families. Most of the SAHMs that I know are actually upper-income Episcopalian or Methodist ex-lawyers…because their families can afford a full-time stay at home parent.

             1. this. A lot of MLM selling is based on women who need income but who don’t have community support to work outside the home.

       5. Yup, this is how it is among my Evangelical(TM) relatives.

       6. Yes, exactly this. There are subtle ways to say women are inferior, without using those exact words. Lots of messaging about men being the head of the household and women supporting their husbands. In fact, I have heard wedding vows that expressly included the woman saying she would obey and submit to her husband (and these are not people who consider themselves to be overly religious, either).

          1. I attended a wedding for a male friend that married an evangilical woman. Their vows included “husband, you are now dead to other women. Wife, you are now dead to other men.” There was an aside about how they had committed to never divorce (and a sermon on how bad divorce is) and other stuff about bearing children as the sole purpose of marriage. (Luckily, I didn’t know I was infertile then.)

             I actually read up on her religion a lot to try to understand the changes in my male friend more. I learned a lot about the “appearance of impropriety” and how he was then limited on the number of times and the subject matters on which we were allowed to talk post wedding.

             1. Jesus Christ, said without a shred of irony by this (mainline) Christian. That is not gospel.

   12. I think that is a very Catholic (in terms of serving roles in the church) or Southern baptisty cultural feature, not necessarily one of American Christianity as a whole. For example I come from a conservative and religious family (African-American non-denominational Christian) and women have had leading roles in the church for years, with women being at least 30 to 40% of the church boards I’ve been familiar with, holding high pastoring position, and performing preaching and counseling duties. It has never occurred to me that women in the church are lesser than the men.

       However, it is still very common that the fortunes of a church family are tied to every member of that family (husband, wife or child if a minor), so if one family member is asked to leave the church, the others usually also leave, especially for a serious ethical or legal scandals (unless the spouse leaves the offending spouse). However, I have also frequently seen the spouse leave the church and the non-offending spouse remain in non-pastoral job functions if a paid position.

   13. I grew up in the Deep South in a religious family. If you asked my relatives, they wouldn’t say that women were lesser, rather that they have different roles in the family and the church: men are the providers and and women the caregivers; men are the head of the family just as Jesus is the head of the church, etc. I don’t share those beliefs and definitely rebelled as a teenager. I couldn’t (and still can’t) fathom being in a relationship where my partner was entitled to make the final decision on everything simply because he was male, where my needs and desires would come last (unless my partner made them a priority), and where I would be expected to give up my career (or have a “lesser” career) to care for my children.

       I no longer live in the Deep South, and my circle of friends definitely do not believe that women are somehow lesser than men. All of my female friends are highly educated professionals in dual income homes, equitably share childcare and household responsibilities with their spouses, and definitely do not believe that they are somehow lesser than men.

   14. It’s common in popular culture here, though thankfully growing less so. But even 5 -10 years ago strong female leads were a rarity.

       Hallmark movies are an example— any high-powered woman with a good job moves back to her hometown and takes up a traditionally female job and marries a local man she would have overlooked due to her big city values. All the women are party planners, nannys, bakers (or yearning to be) and the like.

       Majority of the novels we read in school were written by men starring men.

       Etc, etc.

       1. Yikes anon at 10:13- you’re implying that the choice to move to a hometown, marry, and pursue a career that you don’t consider high-powered is the wrong choice. Plenty of women make those choices because that’s what they want to do. Not everyone wants to live in a city penthouse and be a big law partner. Your view of a “good job” seems pretty elitist.

          1. Ah, how desperately we cling to the shackles that bind us. You’ve obviously bought the Hallmark Movie/Disney Princess Narrative of Female Life hook, line and sinker and I won’t argue about it with you. But please contemplate: have you adopted those worldviews of your own free will? Or has your perspective been co-opted by megacorporations run by people who have a significantly vested interest in communicating, however subtly, that women should stay in their (non-powerful) places and leave the tough stuff to the men?

             1. I’m a prosecutor in a large NE city and it’s exactly what I want to do, thanks. My job is very powerful. I’m just saying that it’s not what everyone wants and she shouldn’t look down on women who truly want to “lean out” or move to a small town.

          2. She’s commenting on a common Hallmark movie trope. It’s always presented as the woman having a “good career” (often ill-defined but she wears heels and a suit and drives a nice car) and she moves to a small town and changes her life completely, usually including marrying a local man who she overlooked due to her “big city values.” I don’t think this is Anon 10:13’s view; it is exactly how it’s presented in such movies.

   15. I live in the Bible Belt, and it’s an unusual but not unheard of belief. (As in, at least in any circles I’ve traveled in, it still gets a “that person has that belief” air about it.) But my sister-in-law has mentioned to me that her mother (who had a decidedly unhealthy spiritual awakening with her second marriage) will occasionally tut-tut her if she mentions that she and my brother are deciding something, telling my SIL that this is her husband’s decision. (SIL is decidedly NOT the sort of person who will just sit back and do what she is told (and my brother, well, sort of is), so this is mainly just a funny story.) But I don’t know anyone with a serious education who follows that belief.

       As a Catholic and member of an ethnicity which prizes powerful matriarchs, this is certainly baffling to me. But so are a lot of things in life.

       1. oh you would be surprised….I have women in my Catholic family with serious education that talk about submitting to their husbands….it is some kind of passive aggressive strategy because believe me they truly control things by manipulation behind the scenes….outwardly they conveniently describe themselves as submissive. we should be asking what kind of man wants a woman that is submissive? That is the more concerning part….

          1. I’ve been Catholic all my life, and never once heard that from or about a Catholic. I’m not saying it’s unheard of, but it’s not anywhere like the normal teaching in this religion.

             1. Yes, the Catholic Church is very, very diverse, more so than any other branch of Christianity. You will find any manner of belief being preached, but it’s not necessarily a core or true teaching

             2. It’s literally in the Catholic bible. It may not be a mainstream belief (like birth control, abortion, gay rights…) but it is a Catholic teaching.

             3. But is is literally in EVERY Christian Bible, including denominations that are quite liberal, so that’s not a feature that is unique to Catholicism.

             4. The whole idea that the “Catholic bible” defines Catholic beliefs in this way feels a bit Protestant to me.

             5. “It’s literally in the Catholic Bible” – is pretty much the definition of “I’m Protestant and assume the Bible is as defining for Catholics as it is for us.”

             6. I’m anon at 12:57 and I grew up Catholic and spent 20 years in Catholic school (preschool through a master’s), so no, it’s not a Protestant perspective. I could go into the various church documents that talk about it, but the word “submissive” in particular is from scripture and the catechism and such refer back to that scripture, so that seemed like the relevant source to point out.

                Yes, it’s in all the bibles. But Anon @10:56 said it’s not a normal teaching of Catholicism, so I was highlighting that it is, in fact, a normal teaching of Catholicism even if most Catholics don’t personally believe it (which is the case for a lot of teachings that are, nonetheless, part of the Catholic religion).

          2. I’m very, very, very Catholic and do not submit to my husband. I respect him too much to be indirect and engage in this “the neck moves the head” bullcrap. It doesn’t mean we always agree at the end, but he doesn’t have a passive-aggressive wife.

       2. Maybe it’s unusual to articulate as a belief, but is there a subtle or overt pressure on women to go into caretaking jobs, service work, or jobs that are somehow perceived as support roles? Is there less friction if a woman wants to be a nurse than if she wants to be a doctor? If she wants to be a school teacher vs. a professor? Do people invest more in their sons’ educations and hobbies (sports, scouts, hunting, college) than in their girls’?

          1. Is that a question for me? You sound like you’re asking me to defend this belief, which is certainly nothing like what I said.

             To the extent that’s a question for me, that is certainly not the case in my experience. To the extent it is in other families/social groups in this area, perhaps, but I doubt any more than anywhere else. (I’m frequently amazed at stories I hear about sexism that I hear from people living in blue America, that don’t match my observations or experiences at all.) At least in the circles I travel in (which I’m sure aren’t representative of anything but highly educated professionals in a city), I often feel like people put extra effort into not being sexist, given that they know it’s a stereotype, while I get the impression people in groups where they feel like the stereotype is that they won’t be sexist just coast. But YMMV.

             1. I just wondered if you were missing some things in the Bible belt, since these social pressures were so strongly alive and well where I grew up as well as where I live now, at least for young people. I have also experienced that Catholic culture is often much less patriarchal depending on ethnicity.

          2. In the church I grew up in, also in the Bible Belt, there is pressure for women to go into jobs that provide flexibility to be the primary caretaker. Primarily, this means teaching and caretaking. Most of the women in that church worked outside the home, but I can’t remember anyone besides my mom who had a job other than teacher, nurse, or secretary. My mom spent 6 or 7 years as a lab tech, and she only went to medical school because she couldn’t have children. (Luckily for me, a member of the medical school faculty developed a procedure that enabled her to get pregnant.)

          3. My grandmother (b 1919) was the victim of “pay for the boys’ college education but not the girls’.” THAT’s the generation I think of when I think of investing more in sons than daughters. Not my mother’s generation (b 1940s), and certainly not mine (b 1960s).

          4. Well, I’ll be honest. I came of age in the mid 80’s, and of course a woman could be a doctor, lawyer, engineer, whatever the heck she wanted to do. I didn’t choose those paths, but absolutely my peers were going to medical school, law school, etc. It’s weird to me how all of a sudden there’s “pressure on women to be nurses not doctors, secretaries not lawyers, etc.” It does not describe either my life experience or that of my peers.

   16. I’m going to differ here as I was raised in the Bible belt where the vast majority are southern Baptist. Out there, Catholics are routinely told they are going to hell. And yes, people believe a woman’s place is in the home. So for those of you who say there aren’t many women that feel this way, I would challenge you to spend some time in the South. Growing up I was struck by how at the time, people couldn’t say blatantly sexist things acceptibly, but they could say misogynist things very openly in the name of good old fashioned family values.

       1. Correction, people couldn’t say racist things, not sexist.

          1. It is like this now. You can say sexist things, because women are apparently not oppressed anymore.

             1. Agreed, to you, Anon at 10:54. And Trump made it “okay” among his supporters to be openly racist again. I am speaking to the culture around ~30 years ago. Also, I made the distinction about “blatantly” racist things for a reason, as micro aggressions were incredibly rampant (and still are). But my point was that while at the time it was socially unacceptable to be blatantly racist, the religious nature of the misogyny made it okay to say things about women you wouldn’t say about racial minorities.

       2. I also grew up in the south, in a Southern Baptist home. DH and both I have multiple ministers in our family, including his dad. A few examples of how this “lesser” mentality shows up: while we were dating we decided to go for a run, and my parents told me not to run faster than him, I needed to let him win. When we got married and moved out of state for his job, no one asked me what I would do when I got there. But when we were looking to move to another state for my job, our parents and their friends asked about the impact on his job, his happiness, asked if our marriage was in trouble, and my mom and MIL asked if we were getting divorced. We lift weights together and I’ve always been quite muscular. My mom asked if DH likes that I look so muscular and told me not to lift too heavy so I don’t get too manly for his taste, and my brother asked DH if he actually likes how I look. My in-laws ask me questions and then “confirm” them with my husband. It’s been over a decade of him telling them that I make decisions, if I say it then it’s valid, they should ask my opinion about things that pertain to me, etc., and they still don’t quite get it unless he agrees. And the examples about having children, so many. Anytime we go back to visit, they ask DH about his career and his hobbies. They ask me about kids, somehow forgetting that I’ve been saying we aren’t having kids for over a decade (and DH also says we aren’t having kids, but no one really asks him about it).

          1. Aside from the fitness parts, I could have written this. My ex-husband’s job was always treated as more important than mine by both of our families, even when he was working part-time retail while finishing school and I had a career position that paid our bills. When we couldn’t have kids, relatives blamed me and suggested I was abusing him (!) by not giving him children, even though it was an infertility issue that very well could have been from either one (or both) of us.

       3. Yeah, this is still really common in the south outside of major cities in my experience, as well as pretty much anywhere in the US with a substantial Southern Baptist, evangelical or (so far as I understand) Mormon population. How much it actually affects day to day life is another story but the idea of male headship at least part of the doctrine for a huge number of nondenominational churches and is express doctrine for Mormons and Southern Baptists, I believe.

          And it crops up in places you wouldn’t expect – the pastor of Mars Hill Church in Seattle (a huge nondenominational church that foundered over pastoral misconduct) was very vehemently anti-women working outside the home or having authority over men.

       4. “I’m going to differ here as I was raised in the Bible belt where the vast majority are southern Baptist.” Yes. And living in the Bible Belt and/or being Southern Baptist is NOT MAINSTREAM, which is what the poster was asking about — were these attitudes prevalent in mainstream America. The Bible Belt and Southern Baptist is a niche upbringing, a specific subculture, whatever set of words you want to use. It’s not mainstream America in the least. Mainstream American is far more secular — Santa-and-Christmas-trees, eggs-and-chocolate-bunnies-at-Easter — with not a lot of overt religiosity at all. Talking about Southern Baptist as being mainstream makes as little sense as talking about Hasidic Jews as being mainstream. They are prevalent in pockets, that’s all.

   17. I grew up in a church where women were seen as “lesser.” My dad was a minister in the church, and my mom was a doctor, which was interesting. When my mom was accepted to medical school in the early 80s, women in her church told her that she had taken their sons’ spots. She wasn’t allowed teach Sunday School to men or even to boys older than 5th grade. She was rejected from participating in medical mission trips because they didn’t want a female doctor who would be in a leadership role. Guess what, though? The church still encouraged tithing and cashed their check every month. She spent hours talking to members about their cancer diagnoses, what it meant, what treatment options there were, etc. She also spent the vast majority of her free time (and mine) on women’s work within the church. And even though she had a full time job, she did 90% of the childcare and housework in our family because my dad worked 80 hours a week. The church may not have ever used the word “lesser,” but I can’t imagine any rational person having a different interpretation of how they viewed her.

       1. Church of Christ? My dad grew up CoC and they had the same limits on women teaching men and boys (actually, in his congregation they couldn’t teach Sunday Schoiol to any children over a certain age).

          1. Southern Baptist. Our older Sunday School classes were gender segregated, and women reinforced the church’s purity messages to teenage girls. Ugh.

       2. “She wasn’t allowed teach Sunday School to men or even to boys older than 5th grade.”

          I mentioned the whole “women shouldn’t teach boys and eventually, even their own sons” thing to my evangelical husband. His response? “Jesus’ first miracle was done at the instruction of his mother.”

   18. Episcopalian now, but grew up in a more conservative (but still mainline) Protestant denomination in the 1980s. We were never explicitly taught that women were lesser than men (though we were taught that evangelicals and Catholics thought that way), but it’s hard not to notice that men were the pastors and on the board of directors while women ran the music program and the service groups. (Women could be pastors but I never had one as a kid.) I do remember some “women are different than men” attitudes, but nothing very heavy. At some point, some Sunday school teacher tried to tell us it was more important for girls to be virgins than for boys to be virgins, and I think we all just laughed at that nonsense.

       My cousins were raised in an evangelical church, and I think my cousin definitely agreed to obey her husband when they got married. My parents were horrified – they got married in a mainline Protestant church in the 1970s and didn’t do that! Laura Ingalls Wilder, pioneer woman, didn’t do that! They had a dry wedding (which seems crazy to old-line WASPs). We aren’t close.

       While I don’t have friends who believe that men > women, some of them do have complementation views but in practice, pretty equal relationships. I also know people who will talk equality all day long, but somehow it was still the man who has the “big job” and the woman spends her life catering to his whims. So in conclusion, people contain multitudes.

   19. I’m curious why you think that’s a uniquely American thing.

       1. In my country there is very little religion, and if there is it’s mostly among grandparents or elderly folk. The US seems to be the only developed nation with such strong belief in these things.

   20. It is not in my current circles, but it definitely was growing up. I think what a lot of people miss is the many different ways the idea of women being lesser (or “different roles” or “complementary”) can crop up. Sometimes it’s explicitly telling women to obey their husbands or forbidding them from working outside the home. Sometimes it’s more subtle, expecting women and girls to put a bunch of effort into catering to men’s preferences and feelings without reciprocation and pouring more resources and attention into the education and careers of men and boys. Sometimes it’s a whole bunch of “most men are x, most women are y” sentiments that affect how boys and girls see themselves even if they would never explicitly say that women can’t lead or men shouldn’t care for children.

       1. I think some of the rhetoric about women being housewives is about control. Even in very conservative Christian groups like the LDS, religious women tend to participate in the workforce at about the same rate as the general population. If your religion explicitly says that women shouldn’t work outside the home, but you do work, you are afraid to rock the boat as a believer within the congregation.

          If there is anything I hope to impart to my daughter about church and volunteer service, it is that even if you believe in a group’s values and mission, that does not mean they get to treat you like crap. It’s been really eye-opening as an adult to see how well volunteers get treated in historically male roles (e.g., vestry, board of directors for a preschool) and how poorly volunteers get treated in historically female roles (e.g., Girl Scouts).

   21. Big career lady married to a pastor. No, this is not a common belief in our circles. Our church is similar to other mega non-denominational churches, hip music and vibe, etc.

       Some people we know believe that women are “different” than men, but not “lesser.” I think the re-packaged version of this for young Christians is the complementarian 2.0 approach that men and women are different. Women can work and do whatever, but are not equal in all ways to men, etc., but that does not make them lesser. This seems to vary by couple and couples with a bread-winning woman, which is a lot in my circle because we are all mostly married to dudes in the church who make little, are egalitarian. Much like anything else religious, this does not have to do with the U.S., but more so with the particular strain of Christianity. Some denominations ordain women and others do not let them pray in front of men, etc.

       I am a third-culture kid and have family across the globe and have seen this be a thing or not a thing across different countries and cultures. It is almost entirely dependent on denomination.

8. I seem to have bought leggings at every Athleta or Zella sale for years and now I am finding that I have so many that are so different (and are my workwear now that I WFH). Some are really soft and stretchy — these may be for yoga (or couch-sitting). These are my favorite. Some are a thicker and seem to have a bit of compression (or maybe I just need to size up?) — I use these on days I will be outside because they can be warmer and maybe a bit pick-resistant (so if I walk the dog on a trail, it’s in these). I’m not sure they’d be suitable for a sweaty gym or bendy enough for yoga (but are fine on the couch). Others are just nylon — they seem too delicate for brushing past bushes, etc. — maybe they are gym leggings as envisioned? And I love the fleece-lined ones now that it is colder (but only then!) even though I seem bigger in them.

   I never thought before that leggings could be this . . . nuanced.

   1. Ha! This is why I always shake my head when someone asks for leggings and a poster will respond “target!” or “lululemon”

      Bish, be specific! There are a lot of different TYPES of leggings! Name the style/fabric/sku!

      1. kk, this cracked me up :). Thank you for making me smile.

   2. Tell me about your soft, sofa sitting leggings!

      1. Lululemon Align! The softest, stretchiest ever. But baby them – no dryer.

      2. Soft but thin leggings (an inexpensive) that are great for the couch, but not are not thick enough for public, are the stars above line from Target.

   3. My ‘just sitting around working from home’ go-to leggings are the Athleta Metro line of leggings/ bootcut yoga pants. I like that they have a bit more…not *structure* exactly but both the solid and herringbone fabrics have more shape and weight to them.

   4. Hahaha! I feel you. I was just contemplating the other day my arbitrary distinctions between sleepwear, loungewear, WFH wear and workout wear. I wore Old Navy’s high waisted compression leggings for OTF classes or running, because it kept everything in check. but too constricting for sitting around all day. I like the Yogalicious High Waist Yoga leggings (available on Amazon) as dupes for the Lululemon Align – super soft. I consider these yoga or barre or perhaps hiking workout wear. For loungewear or WFH wear, I prefer joggers. I have one pair of Gap joggers that I consider my “dress up for leaving the house” wear.

9. If you’ve had COVID, my only take on this is that colleges don’t recommend you re-test for 3 months, so immunity is thought to be waning over time. Is there any known outer limit? It seems some pieces I’ve read suggest reinfection has occurred (not just bad initial testing).

   I know someone who had a mild case recently and after being in lockdown for so long (and being recently single) is off on a bit of a Rumspringa. I am so envious — if I had had it, and didn’t have a job/kids tying me to my house anyway, I might be tempted to take advantage of very cheap travel now and have All The Booze and other things, too.

   1. There’s no known outer limit because this disease is too new. There’s no one you can study at this point who had it 5 years ago and you can see whether or not they get reinfected.

   2. Someone I know was recently told that she’ll have antibodies for about 3 months. However, antibodies aren’t the whole story with respect to immunity. I don’t think anyone really knows the answer to this yet.

   3. NYT ran an article a couple of days about about a new studies saying immunity may last. Anecdotally, friends who had it in March got tested again for antibodies recently still have them.

   4. I have a coworker who had a mild case in March, fully recovered in a week or two and got sick again in late June. Any talk of going for herd immunity sends chills down my spine knowing this.

      1. Did the coworker test positive for Covid both times? I think a lot of people got the flu in March or some other really terrible virus that was not Covid, but thought it was Covid. My family was all sick in late February ( I was the sickest I can recall being in my adult life and it took about 4 weeks to feel better) and at the time we tested negative for flu (no Covid testing then). So I assumed that was Covid because of the symptoms, the fact that we had been to NYC in late February, and how long it took to get better, but in July I got tested for antibodies and I don’t have Covid antibodies.

         1. Yes. Positive test both times. (Was pregnant and hospitalized both times—second time was just overnight.) Presumably either a different strain or still some viral shedding from the first time

   5. It seems to be unknown, so I would never take it as a license to party (especially long-term as I’m seeing some doing.)

   6. I have antibodies and have no idea when I may have been infected. While I feel a little better about my own health now, I won’t be hitting bars or traveling any time soon. There’s just too much that we don’t know. My wife might have antibodies, but since we’re not sure, I’m the designated picker-upper/shopper for the time being.

   7. I read a new study yesterday that said immunity may be 12+ months but can’t find it now. This recent study says immunity for maybe 7 months. https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2020/10/studies-show-long-term-covid-19-immune-response

      Some of this will be studied as part of the covid vaccine trials as the researchers need to determine how long the vaccine will be protective.

      1. Someone up thread jogged my memory – NYTimes article says that “Covid immunity may last years.” https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/17/health/coronavirus-immunity.html

   8. Reinfection HAS occurred.
      I had Covid in August and then tested negative for antibodies. Either way, I’m not running around getting tattoos and stuff.

10. Does anyone have a recommendation for some kind of treadmill workout plan? My 65 year old mother just got a treadmill and I’d like to get her some kind of workout plan to go with it to help prevent boredom and stay motivated. I know Peloton has on demand workouts- does anyone know of any for treadmills? I’m not sure of the brand she got.

    1. Peleton has treadmill workouts!

       1. And they are awesome!

          1. How are they with a regular treadmill and not the Tread?

             1. Really great. I actually started with the app and a standard treadmill about 2 months before I made the jump to buying the bike.

       2. You need to have the Peloton, but to be honest, I would rather spend time on the treadmill watching cable TV or Netflix rather then ooogleing an unrealistically svelte and pretty 20 something who’s sweating on camera while doing her power walk, fun run or bootcamp! Besides, since your mom is 65, go easy on her. Her days of doing bootcamp were proabably long over by the 1990’s when she was potty training you!

    2. Following. I desperately need something to help get me on my treadmill on days that are too dark and chilly to get outside.

    3. I bet she had an idea how she would use it when she bought it, but here’s my suggestion. Put a TV in front of the treadmill. Find a show you like with either 1/2 hour or 45 minute episodes, depending on how long you want to walk. Play the show. Walk. Fast, slow, whatever you feel like. Repeat a few times per week. See improvements over time in speed/distance. Rejoice!

    4. I like the Aaptiv app for treadmill workouts — and many other kinds of workouts.

    5. I got an app that’s just called “The Walk” that is kind of a sci-fi-ish story that you unlock bit by bit by walking for a certain amount of time. I’m enjoying it so far, and it keeps me motivated.

    6. iFit has the same type of subscription program as Peleton does. I have one which came with my NordicTrack and I like it a lot!

    7. Peloton tread classes are awesome. i’ve been using the app with my NordicTrack for 6 months now and love it. Far more engagement of my old trick of watching TV
       If she’s not a runner, they also have walking and hiking routines. Plus all the yoga/stretching/weight training which would likely be important for her

11. Trying to do most of my shopping from local businesses these days. The boutiquey gifts and all take out food I’m good for (though always open to hearing more suggestions) but where do you go for your target / Walmart / Amazon purchases, especially without spending an arm and a leg?

    I’m in Philly (Center City area) and open to suggestions!

    1. I don’t think there’s a great answer for this, especially if you’re money-conscious. If you’re willing to spend a bit more and have fewer brands available, then you can always buy things like TP, paper towels, dry goods at your local bodega type place. In Queen Village we have one at 4th and Bainbridge, for example. Essene is a small but well stocked hippy-dippy grocery store in my neighborhood (also on 4th) that has some paper goods, cleaning products, etc. as well as a good selection of organic foods and you can buy things like beans in bulk. It is pricey though.

       1. Yes! I’ve tried supplementing my grocery trips with Rittenhouse Market/Spruce St Market but it’s not cheap!

          1. oh yeah- I used to live in that area and it was impossible to get out of Scott’s for less than like $30. A Lyft will probably pay for itself to get down to the ShopRite if you don’t have a car.

    2. I believe many grocery stores are local franchises, at least? Like the ShopRite at 3rd and Oregon is “Colligas Family Market.”

    3. I’d go to your local grocery store – most are owned by local franchise partners. In our town the local Shoprite was cheaper than Amazon for Diapers/Formula and matched big box store prices. They also employed special needs workers, which was a big plus in our book as well.

    4. We shop at a locally owned grocery store for paper products and at either a small organic grocery or a wellness store for personal care products like body wash.

    5. I feel like at least Target hires from the neighborhood, so I feel okay shopping there. Also if you have a Costco hearby, they are known for treating their employees well.

12. Ladies, I would love to hear from those of you who left law and transitioned into another career path (I’m sure there are similar posts like this from the past but I can’t seem to find them!). I’m a senior corporate associate at a midlaw firm after a terrible 4 years in biglaw, and I am still completely miserable (the work-life balance I was promised at the smaller firm does not seem to exist). I hate everything about law firm life and have no desire to be a partner. Although going in-house seems like it could be an option, at the end of the day I just don’t think I can spend much longer as a lawyer and want to get out. I’m in therapy and on anxiety meds but am feeling very lost. Any advice appreciated!

    1. I’m in government policy (I was never a lawyer) but many of my colleagues who help write the laws I draft policy for are ex-firm lawyers and work very 8-4 hours. The pay seems pretty good and the work interesting.

       1. This may be a dumb question, but do you mean that you work for a government agency? I don’t know where to even begin to apply for jobs like that, but I think it would be something I would love and be good at. I work for a national non-profit now doing policy-related work but not directly in a policy team.

          1. Yes I work directly for a government agency and I applied through the government website. It was a long process to get my job and I beat out hundreds of applicants. I will warn you that industry/ngo policy is a lot more narrow than government policy. My day to day job includes consideration for way more factors than any lobbyist ever presents to me.

          2. Laws are written by legislative bodies, but agencies write policies, memorandums, regulations, codes, etc.

             1. Laws are mostly written by lobbyists.

             2. they also draft legislation for legislative bodies. Legislators aren’t sitting around writing their own bills. Most of the time, they don’t even read what they pass.

    2. Government. I left litigation for government after my son was born six years ago and never regretted it. I’ve been promoted several times and now lead a division related to HR / employment for the entire 50,000 person State workforce. I get to be involved in really impactful decisions that promote leadership opportunities for women and people of color; I advise the governor on pending legislation; and I still make it home in time for dinner every night with my family. The legal background I brought to the job is super helpful – but I don’t have any of the headaches of litigation.

    3. I was in biglaw, left for in-house and never looked back. It’s a completely different job. In your shoes I’d reconsider it, earning potential is high and the lifestyle is much more predictable than a firm.

       1. PS – I’ve seen a lot of people successfully transition out of in-house law departments to the business side (employment law —> VP of HR, corporate/transactional —> CFO, COO, other feeder roles to these jobs, etc.). A change in direction / dumping the lawyer path will take some intentionality and is harder to do just a few steps away from a firm, but longer term is doable with some intentionality.

    4. If it helps, I am in a similar boat. There is a helpful podcast called Lessons from a Quitter that could be useful if you are really looking to get out. The host interviews people who left their legal (or sometimes other) career to pursue something completely different. It’s helped me make space to explore and feel less alone.

    5. Do you like to write? I work with a legal publisher. My coworkers include attorneys with experience in the practice area we specialize in (tax), who work as editors or reporters. Other larger legal research / publishing companies hire attorneys as product managers, to develop new research tools.

       Good luck!

    6. I went into government, too. One of the best jobs I’ve had was as a reasearch attorney for our state Court of Appeal, ghostwriting appellate opinions. Reasonable hours, good pay and benefits, super interesting work, and best of all no clients or opposing counsel.

13. Does anyone else think Blake Lively’s newest baby is named August? Everyone says James, Inez, and Betty… but I’m not convinced. Just some mindless brain candy for your Wednesday.

    1. Lol. Are people speculating that it is either James, Inez, or Betty? James sounds familiar, but maybe it’s August Elizabeth.

       1. Her two older daughters are James and Inez

    2. I feel so uncool right now haha…I vaguely remember Blake Lively being pregnant and I think she and Ryan Reynolds are cute together. Otherwise, I have zero idea what this question means. Why are people guessing their child’s name? Are they keeping it under wraps for a while?

       1. same!

    3. Ha interesting theory. I think it was confirmed Betty, though… all I can say is they have quite the varied taste in names because those do not go together!

14. There is a style of decorating a cake I’ve seen on bake off etc where it’s just simply frosted except for a little crescent-shape on the side with a small amount of delicate little fruits/etc arranged elegantly. I want to get some inspiration for this for my Thanksgiving cake (look at photos of other peoples, read about tips)…but I don’t know what it’s called so my search skills have failed me. Any suggestions? (Or links?)

    1. N@ked cake?

    2. Violet Bakery frosts their cakes kind of like this – lots of photos on Instagram. I am also a little obsessed with Amanda Faber’s cakes, which are wackier but lots of fun (she has a book – Cake Portfolio).

    3. Semi-naked cake? I saw a blog from Sugar and Sparrow.

    4. Crumb coat

    5. Look at Luminary Bakery on Instagram.

    6. Thank you, these are all great suggestions! Especially Luminary Bakery.

    7. Thanks, these are all great and helpful, especially Luminary Bakery.

15. Anyone want to share their favorite herbal teas? Now that it’s getting chilly out I want something hot to drink during the day. Loose leaf or bagged is fine. If it’s something I can order online that’s great – I’m bored with my local grocery store’s selection.

    1. No specific recs as I’m in the UK but I like lots of different rooibus. We have a earl grey rooibus which I really like, and a tropical one which is light but not overly fruity.

    2. Irish breakfast > English breakfast

    3. Rishi Tangerine Ginger. I’m obsessed with it.

    4. I order all of my tea from a place called Abbi’s Teas in Arkansas. She makes lots of different blends and is a really cool person, to boot. I order online. My favorite right now is Chamomile Cardamom Chai, but she also as a turmeric herbal tea that I love, and I drink a lot of peppermint tea. https://www.abbiteas.com/

    5. My friend who is a tea fanatic loves David’s Teas, online. I tried the gingerbread variety and it was delicious; my SO (who is not at all crunchy and had never had kombucha before) absolutely loved some kombucha she made with David’s cherry berry punch.

    6. Tazo’s Calm (chamomile) with fresh lemon
       Red Refresh from Trader Joe’s — it’s a hibiscus blend with orange and a couple other things. Delicious with fresh lemon and can drink hot or cold.

    7. I love Rishi turmeric ginger tea. So good. Their cinnamon plum also basically feels like drinking wine, which makes it a good pandemic drink even though it doesn’t exactly feel like tea.

       1. Ooh, wine-like tea? You are speaking my language! Thank you — adding to my next Rishi order.

          1. Report back! Maybe it’s just me! But it’s a deep dark red and the spices in it are often used for mulled wine/ mulled cider.

       2. Trader Joe has a good turmeric and ginger tea. I like to drink it at night in the winter, and I’m not a big fan of herbal teas at all.

    8. Love Mighty Leaf Green Tea Tropical. Whole Foods has it.

    9. We purchase all of our tea from Rare Tea Cellar in Chicago.

       https://rareteacellar.com/

    10. I just ordered tea from a company founded by an aspiring black gymnast who became paralyzed after a training accident when she was a teen. The website is cupofte (no a). The company is based in Canada, but ships to the USA. It’s on Oprah’s favourite list.

    11. In the grocery store, celestial seasonings is a good basic. Pukka has some wonderful flavors and some disappointing ones. I like the Love blend, which is a nighttime blend with rose, lavender and a subtle camomille.
        I used to get earl grey roiboos from a little teashop in my home town, gotta see if I can find that somewhere around here. It has the citrusy note of bergamot, but instead of black tea the body is roiboos.

    12. Yogi honey lavender. A non-herbal, but decaf option is Celestial Seasoning’s Candy Cane Lane (which is also sold at Trader Joe’s as candy cane green tea and has polar bears on it). Imma go brew up a cup right now!

    13. Celestial Seasonings’ Bengal Spice is delicious and the flavor is similar to Big Red Gum. I generally hate herbal teas (too bland or sour), but this one is amazing and I buy the 6 pack from Amazon.

    14. I really enjoy Twinings Winter Spice tea this time of year, though it’s hard to find. It’s not one of those in your face, cloying “spice” teas – it tastes genuine and is well-balanced.

16. Our latest regulations are that you should Not socialize with anyone outside of your household unit. Most people I know are ignoring that guidance but taking a lot of precaution (outdoors only, six feet distance, masks when not eating, etc) to see family (most people I know are young and single, living with roommates or alone and their parents / siblings live in the suburbs and they visit with them regularly). I think this is fine (and I’m not looking to get into a debate on if this is okay or not), but I strongly suspect that things will be different for Christmas and we actually will be solo for the winter holidays. Thoughts?

    1. Here, single people are allowed to “bubble” with one other household, in recognition of the risks of loneliness, especially for the elderly, as well as single people and couples living separately. I think it is a really important recognition, although the press conference announcing the change was a bit saucy, with the FM announcing the policy and the resumption of “indoor” activities.
       We’re meeting other families for walks (allowed under current regs), but not dining out or going indoors.

    2. Why post a pot-stirring thing like this if you don’t want a debate? Christmas will be a nightmare at this rate. Could be a good time to check on your wills though – the reminder to do that will have to be a silver lining for many.

       1. I honestly did not mean to pot stir. I mentioned to my roommate today that I didn’t think we’d be seeing our parents for Christmas and she was shocked by that. I’m generally pretty cautious when it comes to COVID (as is she) so I was wondering if my thoughts about Christmas were totally off base or if others believed that too

          1. People are fundamentally selfish and have short attention spans. People think the rules don’t apply to them or their family members. A lot of people will be doing regular extended family holiday gatherings, and we will all suffer (whether because we will get sick, or because we will be locked down/have our children out of school for longer than we otherwise would).

             1. +1. I am so over the selfish pr!cks who are doing whatever they want to do. I’ve learned a lot about people, and it confirms who only thinks about themselves and not what’s best for a community as a whole. Their justifications are hard to take.

             2. I agree, but I do want to point out that there ARE a lot of people who are not being selfish assh*les (especially high-risk people). If it weren’t for them, we would have been in an even worse place even earlier than this. I so wish this pandemic were a matter of “personal choice, personal consequences,” but it’s much more a matter of “some of you want to drive drunk and no amount of begging, pleading, taking your license away, or fining you is going to stop you from killing people.” Because you are selfish.

          2. I don’t believe that governmental restrictions will alter anyone’s behavior around the holidays. Cautious people are already planning to spend the holidays with their own households. People who are currently planning to ignore common sense and gather with non/household members are not going to be deterred by anything the state or local government says or does.

             1. I disagree to some extent. Some selfish people are going to selfish no matter what, but there are also some dim people who can’t make good decisions by themselves, but who will listen to “authority.”

             2. Regulations also give an easier “out” to someone who is on the fence. Yesterday, I canceled the thanksgiving we had planned to have with just my parents, and it was a tough convo to have. If I had been in WA or another location where our gathering would have been against the rules, it would have been much easier to “blame” the rules.

             3. I think it will help people getting pressured by family. One of my friends is getting a serious guilt trip from her elderly parents that are not following the rules. She’s less concerned about getting them sick at this point and more concerned about them getting her sick. She is hoping their state locks down so she can use that as her scapegoat. Sorry mom and dad, it’s illegal for me to go to your state seems a lot more palatable than I’m more worried about my health than seeing you at Thanksgiving, even though the latter should be considered reasonable.

          3. i guess i dont understand what you mean by you won’t be seeing your parents for Christmas? you don’t have to see them for Thanksgiving either. on some level, no matter what the policies/laws/guidelines are, people don’t seem to care and are just doing whatever they are comfortable with anyway.

          4. I don’t know what planet someone is living on if they think that Christmas gatherings will be Christmas as usual.

       2. Wow, that escalated quickly. Although OP was naive to think this post wouldn’t pot stir. Might be a valid question on a site that doesn’t let you comment anonymously, but this board has shown itself to be rabidly covid conservative at times.

          1. Disagree. This board is way too liberal on corona, just like most of this country. If people were actually conservative, we wouldn’t be in this situation.

             1. +1.

             2. +1. I’ve really been surprised by what some people consider conservative in the middle of a pandemic.

          2. And point proven almost immediately! OP, any post that mentions quarantining or other COVID restrictions is pot stirring on this site.

    3. Why?

    4. I know a lot of people at work who are blatantly ignoring the guidelines. They expect me to smile and say “how fun“ when they describe flying from California to Texas and back for a Friendsgiving with nary a quarantine on either end. Many are violating legal orders as well as more general recommendation guidelines with impunity. Over it.

       1. Yep people jumped all over it when someone mentioned it this week but I’ve seen pictures of and been invited to multiple Friendsgivings, a baby shower, football watching party, and a birthday party. All indoors. All in the last 3 weeks. And multiple people are work are talking about a quick vacation to Florida (from DC) since it’s been soooo long since they traveled. And yet if you saw these people at the store, they’re careful mask wearers. I’ve been over people since March.

          1. Same girl, same. If I had a nickel for every time I saw someone I personally know going to a graduation party or 4th of July party or Halloween party “but I wear my mask to the store and so does Susan,” I’d be able to buy my seat in Congress and bring some real laws with teeth to this pandemic.

             1. I am over it too. We are doing the slow fade with longtime family friends after watching them take multiple vacations and attend a large wedding. We are also considering leaving our church because its response to the pandemic, driven primarily by selfish old people, has revealed a fundamental incompatibility in values.

             2. If you do leave your church, I hope you’ll consider telling them why.

          2. I mean, but it’s good they are wearing masks at the store?

             1. And just to clarify, I am less strict than many on this board, but absolutely zero Halloween, graduation, or 4th of July parties for me. I am not defending those actions, but think that this doesn’t have to be all or nothing. I would rather see people follow as many rules as possible (ie mask wearing, skipping 75% of social activities) versus 0.

             2. Wearing a mask at the store doesn’t give you a free pass to do whatever. Wearing a mask is the most basic thing you could ever do. You don’t get a cookie for doing it, you don’t deserve kudos – you’re making a very small sacrifice and that’s great, but it confers no privileges.

             3. Anonymous at 11:29: I am writing from the southeast. My blue city has a mask mandate that I’d say 75% of people are following, but my red state does not have a mandate because our governor is too scared to put one in place and offend his voters (I certainly did NOT vote for him and, in fact, volunteered extensively for the Democrat who ran unsuccessfully against him). Our priority right now is getting everyone masked up. Outside of the blue cities, mask-wearing is very low except for when people go inside the stores that thankfully require them.

             4. I think it’s frustrating because a ten minute trip through a store is probably far lower risk than gatherings with friends and family. In a store, you aren’t eating, you’re just passing through, and you’re probably only ever face to face with the cashier for a minute or two (and there is probably a plexiglass barrier between you). But when you’re having social gatherings, people are talking face to face for extended periods and likely eating, sharing serving utensils and bathroom spaces and yet probably aren’t wearing a mask, or are removing it for periods of time (because we seem to have this magical thinking that people we like couldn’t possibly be a risk to our health like those dirty strangers in public).

             5. Aunt Jamesina, now your response DOES make sense to me! That’s totally fair. I always appreciate your responses here.

                I will just say that I feel (and obviously science says I am) SO much safer when the people around me are wearing masks. Living in my state, I don’t take it for granted.

             6. Aww, thanks! Yes, we ARE safer with masks on, whether in a shop or when we’re visiting friends. No quibbles with that! I’m glad I live in an area where I’ve never seen someone try to violate the mask order (although there are plenty of doofuses who leave their noses hanging out).

             7. Yes, because the people in those areas who are not wearing masks are stupid. I don’t know why the reluctance to call it like it is. Responsible people have been wearing masks in public since April. Irresponsible selfish losers aren’t. There’s nothing more to say. This isn’t the beginning of the pandemic, we are 8 months into this thing.

          3. I just can’t wrap my head around how much my friends are going out day to day. Fortunately they aren’t going to parties or vacations and always wear masks, but just out of the house — to the store to pick up this or not unnecessary item (not curbside); to get coffee 1-2x/day as they would at work; outdoor dining multiple times a week. And when they’re at coffee or outdoor dining, they’ll make small talk with the staff or with whoever they run into in the lobby on the way back in. I know all of these things are allowed but IDK isn’t it still better to NOT be around people unnecessarily. They shake their head at me as just this week I said (by text) that I wouldn’t go to x store to pick up something because I’d have to go inside, I’ll just find an alternative that’s doing curbside or find a way to get the thing by mail. They thought it was ludicrous as I was like — well it’s non essential so why do it??

             1. Hmm I guess it comes down to whether you are striving for risk mitigation or risk elimination. To me, outdoor dining seems like a great way to safely support local business (in my state, waiters make less than $3 an hour before tips), guard your mental health by sharing meals with a friend or 2, and minimize risk. I eat out, on average, 2X a month now…in before times, I ate out AT LEAST 2X a week and usually more.

                Granted, I am trying hard to minimize shopping trips. But again, I used to go to *a* store as often as 3 times a week. Now, I am trying hard to go less than 1X a week. I consider this risk mitigation and I imagine that your friends see it similarly. In your case, it sounds like you’re aiming for as close to zero risk as possible. That is commendable, sure, but I don’t see people who are mitigating versus eliminating as irresponsible.

             2. I think some people are trying to help to flatten the curve and contribute to better public health outcomes. They’re following guidelines designed to ensure that when people get COVID, there will be enough room at the hospital. Other people are trying not to catch COVID at all. That requires different precautions.

             3. Anon at 1:52, I think you hit the nail on the head! Short but insightful comment. That probably describes the difference I am seeing between most people I know in my own life who are taking Covid seriously and the people on this board.

             4. But why, as you imply, is it wrong not to want to catch the virus oneself? The long-term effects can be devastating. With effective vaccines on the horizon, it is eminently reasonable to try to avoid infection until one can be vaccinated.

             5. Anon at 2:45, I don’t think it’s wrong! I can very much respect and understand that. I just feel that there is a lot of judgement towards who are following the laws from those who are going above and beyond to never leave the house. Does that make sense?

       2. I think there’s a huuuuge difference between traveling/going to parties and a socially distant outdoor visit with a small family group for two hours, no?

          I’m seeing my immediate family (parents and sister – sister is 22 and lives at home and has since she was 20 and transferred back to a local college. She’s taken all of her classes online this year so has not been on campus). I live 30 mins away and have been seeing them regularly since May. I live solo and work from home. My plan is to just spend the afternoon with them outdoors and distanced.

    5. FWIW, I’m single and live alone and I am seeing my parents for Christmas (I posted yesterday about some family issues). I have been very conservative but my plan is to do a loose quarantine, basically drive straight through (about 5 hours) and stay at my parents’ place for just under 2 weeks. We likely won’t be doing much besides staying at home and running some errands like groceries – I might go for a few runs but otherwise will essentially be “bubbling” together. So I think there’s a way to do it safely if you’re not seeing much extended family while you’re there and everyone is cautious and careful both before and after.

       1. There’s a way to do it, but “loose quarantine” isn’t a thing. If you could do what you described with an actual quarantine and no stops, I think it would be pretty safe as long as your parents were doing the exact same thing on their end.

          1. Agreed. “Loose quarantine” isn’t a thing. It’s like saying you aren’t sexually active, except for a *little* butt stuff.

             1. Ha! Well, that wouldn’t get you pregnant so…

       2. I appreciate that you’re trying to be cautious. But don’t you wonder—What if the numbers are extreme & the hospitals are overflowing at Christmas as anticipated? What if your “loose”quarantine is inadequate because the virus is so prevalent right now?

    6. I don’t really get how they’re sending college kids (living in a congregate setting) home, but someone who lives alone/works from home is discouraged from driving 20 mins to spend two hours outdoors/distanced/masked with two other people

       1. College dorms aren’t a permanent residence.

       2. i work at a college and they are encouraging all students to take extra precautions and get tested before going home.

       3. I don’t think all colleges are “sending” kids home (many could stay if they wanted, although I know some schools are going remote after Thanksgiving), but they’re recognizing the reality that students WILL go home and they can’t control that, so they’re trying to encourage testing and precautions.

          1. Every college kid I know is at a school that is going remote after thanksgiving, so they are effectively being sent home

             1. Right, but they have to go home at some point. And when these plans were made over the summer to send students home at Thanksgiving, they had no way of knowing that this would be a particularly bad period. I think colleges felt they were doing the right thing by sending them home at Thanksgiving before things were projected to get really bad in the winter. The timing does suck, but I’m not sure there’s a better workaround without running into a lot of the issues college students had when they were sent home in March (students stranded or unable to afford a ride home, dorms closing with no alternative housing, etc.).

          2. It’s been years since students have been allowed to just stay in their dorms over winter breaks or other long breaks (aside from special permissions and overseas students). If the dorms are closed, they couldn’t stay even if they wanted to. Even before covid.

       4. I agree, college kids returning is absolutely a risk. Which is why my state’s guidance for combining households explicitly includes college students returning to their family home. Both groups either quarantine for 14 days, or quarantine for 7 days + negative test.

       5. The colleges I’m familiar with had structured their calendar to send the students back home at TG, not have them return (do finals remotely) and then come back in January. If they now have them stay, there’s a lot of personnel that would need to be put in place to service the dorms, cafeterias, etc. I can see that it’s hard to turn on a dime and keep them there if it had been planned the other way.

    7. The question of what Christmas will look like is very much on my mind too, but I’m trying not to spend too much energy on it. The thoughts I had about Christmas last month look unrealistic now as cases have spiked, and I suspect things will look worse next month. I won’t try to make a decision about Christmas until we are about 2-3 weeks out. The positive news about vaccines has me feeling a little bit better about potentially missing this Christmas with family, as I am feeling more confident that we will be back together next year.

    8. Honestly I think there are ways to do it safely. The regulations are put in place with the assumption that most people are going to bend the rules. If the government sets the regulation at zero, then most people will bend it to a one or a two. If the government sets a regulation at two, people will bend it to a four or a five, which would be bad.

       Seeing a small group of local family outdoors / distanced / masked / separate food is fine. The government says don’t see anyone outside of your household knowing that if they allow small outdoor gatherings, many will turn them into larger indoor gatherings

       1. This is such weird mental origami. “They are telling me one thing, but surely they mean something else … if I get sick from my self-imposed loosening of the rules surely they will have hospital space for me.”

          ??? It just doesn’t track.

          1. People also just don’t believe it can get that bad in America. Are psyches are designed to protect us. Few people can calculate real risk. They think there is some safety net that will be pulled out that doesn’t actually exist.

             1. My former COVID unit medical professional friends are doing low key thanksgivings. My emergency manager friends are doing low key thanksgiving. My friends who helped establish a covid field hospital are doing low key thanksgivings. They truly, truly understand a) the risk and b) the lack of an extra safety net but are still doing something

             2. What does low key mean? Just their households or is anyone coming over?

       2. I actually think the opposite is true in many places. The political blowback is so bad that many governors and mayors aren’t being as hardline as they were in the spring and are instead only making suggestions or placing more limited restrictions rather than doing lockdowns or straight up closing places. And hardly anywhere are these restrictions actually being legally enforced like they were in the spring.

          1. That’s the case for my friend in Idaho. Her town is FINALLY considering a mask mandate, but it’s riddled with so many exceptions that it’s useless. “Wear a mask…unless you’re in a bar!”

             1. I know right, and don’t gather unless it’s for church!!

             2. I don’t even know why we bother with these states and their stupid governors. STILL no mask mandate in Idaho? 8 months into this? It’s a shame for the (apparently few) educated people in Idaho and the healthcare workers who have to pick up this mess.

    9. This article was mega-disturbing. We’re way more screwed for Christmas than we even realize.

       https://www.thedailybeast.com/covid-truthers-try-to-invade-utah-valley-hospital-where-patrice-grossman-died?ref=home

    10. Ok my family is doing a small outdoor distanced holiday. I was on the fence. I’m genuinely asking for sources as to why the gathering described below is not okay:

        – two households (me, living with one very cautious roommate (who will be going to her parents) and my parents/younger sibling who lives at home). From May through last weekend I regularly saw them indoors and outdoors. Aside from my roommate and coworkers, they’re the only people I’ve seen indoors since March.
        – outdoors the entire time
        – limited to a few hours
        – will be distanced outside
        – will be masked unless eating / drinking
        – I live ~30 mins away so no long distance travel involved
        – everyone involved is pretty cautious (always wears masks, no longer socializing, currently wfh, etc)

        I don’t want to be unnecessarily risky, but I’m honestly failing to see why this is dangerous. Being young / single my option is this or to sit home alone. Even the most cautious people I know are doing something like this.

        1. I think that’s fine. Why it doesn’t work for me is visiting my family outdoor and masked leads to “it’s cold, let’s go inside.” And “here’s a cup of tea to warm up” so now masks come off. It’s very hard to say no to those you love, particularly in person, particularly when they were previously an authority figure to you (parents).

        2. This is fine, if people actually stick to it. We naturally let our guards down around family.

           1. Yeah, I’m pretty conservative and I would say that it’s fine IF people stick to it, but I was invited to a micro-wedding where universal mask-wearing was promised and I got there and people started taking them off left and right. The photographer asked me to take mine off for a picture (I did not since I didn’t want to touch it/mess with it). If things got that loose at a wedding with at least four different households that didn’t know each other, how loose will they get with family?

           2. YES, this is so true! Even the most vigilant can find themselves feeling comfortable when they shouldn’t. Humans are terrible at assessing risk, especially when it’s invisible.

        3. If this is something you’ve been doing regularly and are ACTUALLY sticking to it, it’s perfectly fine. Your immediate family and roommate is your pandemic bubble and you are taking precautions with them. You asking why it is “not okay” is very much defensive and an attempt to get a rise out of people over precautions that you know are on the more conservative side. Please go somewhere else with your baiting posts. And if you are truly genuine, then you should know, it reads very much like a baiting post.

           1. It was a genuine question and it wasn’t meant to be baiting (I still don’t really see how it’s baiting, but whatever). I asked why it wasn’t okay because the entire thread is full of people saying that seeing anyone outside of your household is not okay so I www genuinely curious what was wrong with my plan.

              Prior to this week I was seeing my immediate family indoors, but the situation has changed so our behavior has too. I also was seeing others outdoors throughout the summer, but as the situation changed so did my socializing.

        4. This is literally what my thanksgiving looks like, and everyone is on board with keeping it very strict and not giving up and going inside. I have no problem telling my parents no, though I know they have no intention of going inside either. This is what my other friends are planning on doing with their thanksgivings.

           I work in government and I was involved in the phase one covid response, so I know how dire things can be and how serious this is.

           Instead of a decent discussion, there were just a ton of comments calling anyone who does anything for thanksgiving selfish.

        5. This seems fine to me.

        6. I haven’t socialized with anyone but my husband since March, but this sounds fine to me. I think everyone I know locally would bend the rules, move indoors, take off masks, etc. at some point, or say they quarantined beforehand when they definitely hadn’t, so that’s the reason I don’t have similar plans.

        7. It might be wise to make this a dry Thanksgiving, both to minimize the amount of time people spend with their masks off and because tipsy people are likely to be a lot less careful with their masks.

    11. How come the recommendation isn’t quarantine for 14 days and then gather for thanksgiving and Christmas? That would obviously mean no going to work and only driving to your gathering spot so not everyone could do it but many esp the demographic posting here could. Is it just that public health officials think people wouldn’t do it right — like oh while quarantining I went to the mall just once to pick up a gift I couldn’t get online in time or I just went into the office the one time because my boss was insistent?

        1. Yes, I think this is exactly why.

           I had a colleague (who is a selfish dumba$s in many, many ways aside from this one) who was ordered to quarantine by the county health department, but mentioned later that he was still running errands during that time because he “had to”. People either don’t understand what an actual quarantine is or don’t care to follow it once it gets the least bit difficult.

           1. Yep, this. I know someone who ran to the grocery store twice while his wife was in their house recovering from a fairly severe case of COVID (a fever for over 20 days, O2 saturation down to 88 at one point). He knew full well it wasn’t allowed.

           2. I know people who were asked to quarantine through contact tracing programs who believe they quarantined 100% because they wore masks while shopping and socializing.

        2. Yes I think this is why. This WAS the recommendation over the summer and IDK if people really did it as in staying home for 14 straight days. And I think with pandemic fatigue you’d get even more people who’d be running to the mall for a gift; or to Target for gift wrap; or to the office to pick up that binder they don’t necessarily need but would be nice to have. I honestly think you’d get a lot more runs to the malls esp as Christmas nears when people can’t get whatever they want delivered in time because they forgot just the one gift.

17. I’m looking to send a package to our families overseas (Germany) before the holidays.
    Aside from the usual suspects USPS, FedEx and UPS, can you recommend any other global shipping carriers that don’t charge an arm and a leg?
    Bonus points if I don’t have to stand in line in a physical store to drop off.

    I do realize that I may have to spend the $ if I want to send over some gifts as we’re not traveling there for the holidays, but just wondering whether someone has a secret trick for not spending mire in shipping than the content of the package cost.

    1. You just have to suck it up. We usually do USPS when we send packages to Europe where my partner’s family is. I decided to let the cost of shipping go mentally and it made the whole thing much more pleasant.

       1. Good point. I mean, we’re saving money by not flying over. May as well spend a small % of that on shipping.

       2. I just sent a USPS pkg to Europe, and was able to fill out the shipping label online and print it out. So, just dropping of at the post office, not waiting in line. But yeah, the shipping cost was more than the value of the contents. You can try to optimize the weight to be just under the full pound and not be like me and pay for an additional pound when you’re only an ounce over…

    2. It is just really expensive. USPS is your best bet.

    3. For family in Europe my trick is that I order from Amazon Germany. The website is available in English and I have an Amazon Germany Prime membership. All the shipping options are either expensive or slow. I’m never organized enough to get presents bought in time for the slow options and I hate spending as much as things are worth to ship them so Amazon it is.

       1. adding that the Prime membership includes free shipping throughout Europe I think, I have family in a couple different countries.

    4. We had German au pairs for 4 years, and it’s just expensive. I don’t think a single one sent things home in the mail because of it, if it couldn’t be crammed into a suitcase it got donated. Buying a new suitcase and paying for extra baggage fees was cheaper than mailing stuff.
       That being said, I believe DHL was the ‘cheapest’ choice for sending things overseas but it can take at least a month at the best of times.

    5. I order gifts for my France based family from French Amazon. I got sick of paying more for shipping than the gift.

    6. I should maybe have added that I’m looking to send more sentimental gifts, like tree ornaments made by our kid – I know our parents will miss their grandchild terribly this season.

       I have ordered from the local Amazon affiliates for physical gifts.

       Oh well, looks like expensive shipping will be worth it. Maybe I can combine it all into one package and tell my mom to send it onwards to local relatives.

       1. I sent a package to Israel of exactly that – sentimental items. My relative, who is living a pretty isolated life, said it felt like getting a hug. Totally worth the $40.

    7. USPS will be the cheapest for sure. There’s also DHL on the list that you are missing but they will be expensive.

18. Any tried and true pumpkin pie recipes? Sorry if this was recently posted and I missed it.

    1. The traditional recipe from the Libby’s can is still my favorite. I don’t want a fancied-up pumpkin pie on Thanksgiving!

       1. Link: https://www.allrecipes.com/recipe/22755/libbys-famous-pumpkin-pie/

       2. +1 Libby’s can all the way. Every time I’ve tried to get fancier no one liked it. Some things should be left alone.

    2. I like this one – smoothest pumpkin pie I’ve ever had. https://www.budgetbytes.com/maple-brown-butter-pumpkin-pie/

    3. I made the one from the Kitchn this weekend and really enjoyed it. https://www.thekitchn.com/how-to-make-classic-pumpkin-pie-for-thanksgiving-197418

       1. +1 on the Kitchn recipe. I have used it the past few years

    4. This recipe is my go-to. I found it in one of those grocery store check-out aisle pamphlets my mom bought ages and ages ago. (It turns out fine with the reduced fat SCM, if that’s something you care about.)
       https://www.eaglebrand.com/recipe-detail/perfectpumpkinpie-3929

19. For those of you on here who’ve distanced yourself a bit from parents not just because of regular life but due to some issue (toxic, critical, not supportive, only talk/think of themselves, whatever), do they know you’ve distanced yourself and why? Like was it a discussion or simply more of a — not staying for more than 2 days no matter what or whatever other line you’ve drawn with no explanation?

    1. For me, it was no discussion. It would not have been productive. They just don’t get it and never will. My time with family is as short as humanly possible without being overly rude.

    2. Unless you are going full-on no-contact, it’s easier just to stick to your own boundaries without discussion.

    3. My dad could turn anything into a debate where he was right and I was wrong, so there was never any point in me sitting him down to tell him what was happening. I opted to set my boundaries around phone calls and visits, start enforcing them, and let him deal with his feelings on his own, even if that meant hanging up on him mid-conversation or physically leaving the room or repeating things like “I hear that you’re disappointed I don’t visit more often, I’ll see you next month like I said” so many times in a row that he got bored.

       It did help for a while, after an initial adjustment period. But full disclosure, I still ended up cutting off contact in 2018 after a truly egregious action on his part (it involved lawyers).

       I’d recommend checking out Captain Awkward if she isn’t already on your radar–she has a lot of scripts and posts about managing stuff like this.

    4. Never formally discussed it but I rarely spend more than 2 hours with my mom even though she sees the kids after school multiple times a week. We’ll go over for Sunday dinner but never stay overnight at their lake house. Always take a long walk with the kids mid afternoon when we do visit their lake house. She has no capacity to be anything other than passive aggressive and a martyr. Zero interest/energy to discuss it with her so I’ve just done a slow fade.

    5. Is there anyone who DOESN’T have a relationship with their folks that isn’t remotely like what has been shared above?

       1. I mean, some of us experienced SEVERE abuse that has medical professionals scratching their heads as to how we’re still alive. Is everything about you?

    6. No conversation, no point.

    7. No discussion.

    8. Personally, I don’t trust my parents to have that conversation. Even an explicit boundary like “no visits over 2 days” would be seen as an invitation to argue and then talk sh*t about me to all our relatives. I just stay neutral and formal. I also inform them of what I am doing and only share finalized plans, rather than discussing what I might do or what I’m considering (“I will be in town Friday to Sunday”, “I won’t be coming to Christmas this year, but I’d love to Zoom call in the afternoon if you’re available”, “I am staying with [other relative], but can I take you out to lunch while I’m in town?”).

       Captain Awkward has many wonderful scripts for these sort of relationships.

       1. This. We had to switch to 1) telling DH’s mom/brother only after we booked our visit and 2) not staying at their house. Otherwise it was constant push back about why we couldn’t come at a time more convenient to them, or stay longer, or cook abc, or do XYZ while we were there.

    9. I became estranged from my family after a solid year of increasingly horrific fighting. They lied to my face, bragged about it later, were raging a$$holes to me at my wedding, did not tell me when my grandmother was dying so I couldn’t visit in the hospital, lied some more, and also told me that I had a Christian obligation to pretend that childhood abuse never happened (they don’t go to church but I do).

       Whether or not they “know” why I don’t have anything to do with them is not my concern. I’m not obligated to explain basic humanity to sociopaths.

20. Where can I buy frames that are inexpensive but not garbage? I bought my kids some wall art for their bedrooms from Tiny Showcase (check it out if you don’t know it, I love their weekly art sales). I want to buy inexpensive frames with mat to hang the art. I need standard sizes such as 8×10 and 9×12. My first thought was Michael’s. It has very cheap options, but I worry that what they sell is just trash. Is there another vendor you recommend who sells inexpensive pre-made frames?

    1. I bet you could do well at the thrift store if you don’t care about the frames matching.

       1. You can also be thoughtful about frame color and/or matting, so that even if the frames don’t “match,” they coordinate. I did this with black frames on a gallery wall–lots of different size (both overall frame and the width of the frames), different materials (wood, metal, resin), different finishes (matte, glossier).

    2. I have found better quality at Target than at Michael’s.

    3. I got these at Target recently and I thought they were a good value:
       https://www.target.com/p/11–34–x-14–34–matted-wood-frame-white—made-by-design–8482-/-/A-15576318
       https://www.target.com/p/14–34–x-18–34–matted-to-8–34–x-10–34–thin-gallery-frame-black—project-62–8482-/-/A-54004294
       https://www.target.com/p/14–34–x-14–34–matted-to-5–34–x-7–34–mid-tone-single-image-picture-frame-brown—project-62–8482-/-/A-77361209

    4. I have links in mod! Long story short, Target has nice ones. Check back later if you want my specific frame recs.

       1. Btw I actually have preferred our QFC (our version of Kroger) brand frames to Target… The mats are a more consistent color.

          1. I bet it depends on the frames. I imagine Target contracts items out to so many factories that this can really vary depending on the item you get. FWIW, I got multiples of three different styles of frames and they were all matched.

             1. Oh that is awesome. Yeah, I was really bummed by my recent (online) target frame purchases. It might be better in person.

    5. For less than custom but much nicer than Michael’s I’d try RH, or Pottery Barn. I’ve gotten frames from both with mats included and they are very nice looking in person.

    6. Ikea

21. For the litigators, is anyone else seeing an uptick in discovery disputes and/or grouchy opposing counsel? It seems like every time I turn around lately, I’m getting a new nasty email or good faith letter. It seems like everyone suddenly has a hair pin trigger and believes their case is worth $1M+. I know this year has been hard, but geez! Would be great if everyone could just take it down a notch.

    1. Not disputes, but absurd demands. I do med mal defense. No, your “settlement value” isn’t 80 million. Not when the life care plan that your expert prepared is $15,000,000, which is already a stretch. That’s not “what’s fairest and reasonable for both parties.” You think the hospital system you sued (because we’re the ones with deep pockets) has 80 million to give to you right now? Hahahahahahahahaha. Just spare me.

    2. I am wondering if some litigators are struggling for hours without trials and perhaps find themselves with lighter caseloads. Not so here. I am drowning.

    3. At a recent (virtual) motion calendar, 3 of 5 cases were discovery disputes, where no one could agree on anything. Sigh.

    4. Yep! Not just lawyers, but my job involves interacting with a lot of electeds. Those people are on edge and I think the pandemic took existing grievances and sharpened those edges. People have not given each other as much grace as they have in the past…

    5. Maybe they’re inspired by all of the failed but billable motions from the Trump camp.

       Of course billable doesn’t mean paid, especially given this particular client.

22. I LOVE these tunics. I think I am up to four now. They are in heavy rotation from fall to spring and I absolutely wear them to work under my business casual dress code. I’m wearing one today in nutmeg in fact!

    1. I’m wearing one in dove gray! I size down a size or two- they are great on zoom and a little more chic than wearing an old college sweatshirt, but just as comfortable.

    2. The Free People one specifically? (because I don’t see a nutmeg option or the dove grey mentioned below). I’m wondering how loose the neck is. I love the look of it but I am one of those people who can’t stand turtlenecks (or, as the first sweater I put on this morning reminded me, even high cut crew necks). I just hate having anything tight around my neck. This looks like it might provide warmth without being constricting in any way…

       1. Yep, the FP one. I bought the nutmeg a season or two ago. I have a black, off-white, and dove grey one as well.

          It’s definitely nice and loose around the front of the neck! It does rest on the back of my neck, but doesn’t pressure it or anything.

          1. Oops – dove grey was purchased over a year ago.

          2. Found nutmeg at Macy’s! https://www.macys.com/shop/product/free-people-ottoman-ribbed-tunic-sweater?ID=5017160&pla_country=US&CAGPSPN=pla&cm_mmc=Google_Womens_PLA-_-RTW_Womens_Free_People_-_GS_Other_Free_People-_-70943812861-_-pg1051688854_c_kclickid_5d2276bb-8c94-4c45-89b8-64f4095c5c50_KID_EMPTY_251223301_18692183581_70943812861_pla-715296069306_194374125589USA__c_KID_&trackingid=424×1051688854&m_sc=sem&m_sb=Google&m_tp=PLA&m_ac=Google_Womens_PLA&m_ag=OtherFreePeople&m_cn=RTW_Womens_Free_People_-_GS&m_pi=go_cmp-251223301_adg-18692183581_ad-70943812861_pla-715296069306_dev-c_ext-_prd-194374125589USA&gclid=Cj0KCQiAqdP9BRDVARIsAGSZ8Am7V_T3f1Pfa6sLZrtVO-QcLIt3kTl5s3BkmQir8uNJHfq_XNiTbEkaAuThEALw_wcB

          3. ooh thanks! I might try this. I really like the look of it.

23. My mom wants to create a shared family Christmas music playlist, where we can all add and listen to it.

    Spotify does this, does anywhere else?

    1. I don’t have other platform suggestions, but what a lovely idea :)

       1. yes, sounds great!

24. Is there an app for this? I need to make porch drops at about 40 different residences for the holidays. I would like to put all the addresses in an app and have it create the most efficient route. Does this exist?

    1. Try Google maps. You may be able to add all the stops and then click “directions” from your starting point.

    2. I had the same issue when distributing campaign signs. I created a Google map that plotted all the destinations. I printed it out and the route became pretty obvious from there. Then I put the addresses back into Maps in order and got directions. I didn’t find rhe app you were looking for, though, and if it doesn’t exist, someone should create it.

    3. (I say this as someone who used to have do this for her job :-))

       Definitely Google maps, but do it in the browser – you can move the order of the stops around to find the most efficient way to do it easier and then print the list.

    4. This is the traveling salesman problem! Short answer is that a ton of people have spent a lot of time trying to figure out a good algorithm to solve this problem without success. I recommend the google maps approach.
       https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Travelling_salesman_problem

25. The Daily Beast about how the Dems are losing the social media war really hit the nail on the head for my unsettled feelings all month.

    (link below… I know they’re left leaning and opinion-ful. The article succinctly summarizes an ongoing issue)

    Everyone has election fatigue and we’ve taken a moment to exhale. Meanwhile, the crazy wing of the GOP is out there building more networks, platforms, and infrastructure to spread their own propaganda and misinformation. All at breakneck paces. What does it mean for 2022, 2024, and beyond if for a growing number of Americans “Fox News is their Left Pole of their news sources”?

    It also terrifies me that Parler is a top five download in the App Store (behind only zoom, tiktok, and YouTube; ahead of Instagram and Facebook!). There was a Wired article describing that the Trump account bot sends a direct message to each new user—all 8million and growing.

    And meanwhile the Dems are not doing anything remotely close. Feels like we brought nail clippers to a gun fight. So frustrated.

    https://www.thedailybeast.com/joe-biden-won-the-battle-but-democrats-are-losing-the-social-media-war

    1. On the upside, if all the wackos segregate themselves into Parler, then their messages won’t spread so far from their own echo chamber. If I see something “interesting” on twitter or facebook I might wind up clicking through to/believing what turns out to be misinformation/propaganda, but if I need to download a specific app I’m less likely to do that and be exposed to the info.

    2. I’m worried about this too. I fear that the GOP is controlling the narrative about what the left means, but the left isn’t fighting it effectively or developing the tools to increase engagement and develop better ideas. Also, this article in the NYT is resonating with me, although I am souring on the Times for how bubble-y it is:

       “Defund the police” is the second stupidest campaign slogan any Democrat has uttered in the twenty first century. It is second in stupidity only to Hillary Clinton’s 2016 comment that half of Trump’s supporters belong in a “basket of deplorables.” Moreover, Grofman continued, the antifa “take back the neighborhood’” in Seattle, where a part of the city became a police no-go zone, with the initial complicity of Democratic office holders, hasn’t helped either, especially after someone was killed within the zone. That allowed the Democrats to be seen as in favor of antifa, and, worse yet, to be portrayed as in favor of violence. Even more damaging, in Grofman’s view, have been the scenes of rock throwing demonstrators and boarded up stores that Republicans have regularly used for campaign fodder and that were a long-running story on Fox News. Every rock thrown, every broken window, is one more Republican vote.”

       https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/18/opinion/biden-democrats-moderate-progressive.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage

       1. Yup, this.

    3. I hear you. I wish I was a social media wizard and could help!

    4. My concern here is what are we going to do? Create our own social media bubbles? I completely agree with the commenter who said “Defund the Police” was a PR nightmare. But I’m struggling with what we can do that isn’t just mirroring what the right is doing, just with a left leaning bent?

26. Does anyone have Adidas face masks? I just purchased some in XS/S because all other masks seem to be comically large and useless for me, and I’m disappointed because these bend my ears a bit. However, I see some of the photos on their site seem to show bent ears, even on kids. There is a bit of friction on my face I’m not used to as well. How do these fit you? Is there a way to lengthen the straps, or is this more money down the drain for masks that don’t fit?

    1. I have no information on Adidas masks but I just got some from Old Navy (couldn’t resist the Christmas prints!) and they were very small indeed and they have adjustable earpieces. So you might want to check them out.

       1. The first masks I bought many, many months ago were the adult Old Navy accordion ones (polka dot in pink, gray, blue). They didn’t have adjustable straps. These are still too wide across the front and gap widely on the sides and knotting the straps doesn’t help. I also got some plain wide accordion ones from the Gap at the time and they are basically the same. I wonder if they have improved since then. I have spent so much money on masks and there are less than a handful that I can wear and I don’t even really like those.

          1. These are the exact ones I just bought. They were much smaller than the ones I got a GAP. https://oldnavy.gap.com/browse/product.do?pid=661692042&cid=1164877&pcid=1164877&vid=1&grid=pds_23_135_1#pdp-page-content

    2. The Adidas masks are the only thing my 12 year old son will wear (the L size). They fit him perfectly and are comfortable for all-day wear at school (on the very few days he goes). He’s 5″5′ and 135 pounds.

27. Has anyone here worked at both a law firm and in Big 4 and can compare work/life balance? DH works is Big 4 and has always told me my law degree would be enough to get my foot in the door despite my complete lack of business background. I never believed him until recently when I realized I have a few law school classmates who went in this direction. I’m currently a midlaw litigator and considering all my career options.

    1. I haven’t but have worked people with people that worked in Big 4 in a previous career and LEFT for the easier lifestyle in big law, and they were all very happy with that decision. From what I’ve heard, it’s more social requirements, more traveling, and just as stressful as law, so not really worth it unless you can get a sweet gig that doesn’t travel a lot. I have not heard anything about a legal role in Big 4 though.

    2. I have! Tax lawyer here. My friends and I all agree that we will never, ever, EVER understand the prestige of an accounting firm and the idea that it’s hard to get into. In our experience, they’ll hire any warm body with a diploma. For accounting, they want to see relevant accounting degrees, but you could major in basketweaving for most of the other departments and they wouldn’t care.

       Speaking to the practice of tax law, the thing about Big4 was, in my experience at least, that clients asked you dumb questions – and keep asking you the same dumb questions in different ways – because you’re a fraction of the hourly cost of their attorneys…but they don’t quite believe your opinion because you’re not their attorney. So if you’re client-facing, you’re expected to always, ALWAYS be on answering asinine questions on Sunday mornings and Friday nights and everything, everything is a fire because they don’t respect you as much as they respect their attorneys.

       I went to a tax law boutique, and because we’re so nichey, our clients trust us when we say something the first time. And they know that it takes time to come up with answers. Clients are always clients and there are always fire drills, but there are definitely fewer *stupid* fire drills – we’re too expensive and too respected for our clients to do that to us. And the matters we work on are more technically interesting, of course. And since I’m at a boutique, I’m at a pretty unicorn place where it really, truly does feel like a family, where the partners really do check out for the holidays, they don’t believe in butts in seats so long as your work gets done, etc. (Meanwhile, I’ll never forget working on some utter BS on Christmas Eve for B4.)

       I obviously can’t speak to the consulting side, if that’s what you’re thinking of doing, but that was my experience practicing law there.

       And one thing to ask about, esp in this climate, is how whatever division you’re looking at feels about WFH. The B4 have a lot of money tied up in office space, and I imagine when this is over they’ll want those butts back in their seats, especially for the legions of baby accountants with legions of questions during busy season.

28. Yes, I promise I will ask my doctor, but in the meantime… If I am usually like clockwork, am 3 days late, but got a negative pregnancy test, is there merit to waiting to test again in a few days? The very disappointing reality for me is that this is probably more likely a sign of peri-menopause than pregnancy

    1. Yup. I tested after 2-3 days, negative, waited another 2 days, and was positive. Worst comes to worst, you’re out a few bucks for the test.

    2. Anon
       Yes, you can retake the test. Cycles can be delayed due to lot of reasons like stress etc not just pregnancy.

    3. Yes, test again. Unless you were testing for ovulation, you may have ovulated later than normal- my cycle is also very regular but once in a while this will happen (I think more so as you get older too). Or it could have been too early to test. In my experience, though, 3 days late would show positive 99.99% of the time if that were the reason. There’s always the other .01 though… And if you are trying to conceive, then you should get ovulation tests so you will have a better idea in the future (and have better odds!).

    4. I had initial negative tests with both of my pregnancies. I’m currently holding my 5-month-old son. Yes, definitely worth testing again!

    5. I definitely ovulated late this month (thanks, US election stress). Test again — and consider reading Taking Charge of your Fertility, especially chapter 6 on charting. I feel so much more confident in our TTC efforts now. Wishing you luck (and wish us luck for a positive test next week!)

    6. Yes, wait and test again after a couple of days. 3 days after miss might be too soon to tell.

29. Just a micromanaging coworkers/boss vent. I am the most junior attorney in a gov law office that is essentially general counsel to an agency. I’ve been practicing for almost 10 years now so I’m the most junior here but not brand new. I was trying to send a simple quick advice email to the agency client on a somewhat novel issue, not a formal advice letter/opinion, just an email about a file they asked me to look at quickly. I asked a coworker to look at it because the issue is somewhat novel (and covid related so we expect to see more of it) to make sure we are on same page. She made some minor edits which I’m fine with, though some of them are more style than substance edits (again fine, but I don’t consider this a good use of my time because the effect is just to put the email more in her “voice” than mine without any substantive difference). She suggests I run it by 2 other attorneys further up the hierarchy because they want to be kept aware of any evolving legal issues related to this. Fine. Now they have responded separately with their own edits that are, again, primary style and not substance. So now this email has basically been rewritten to be in three other people’s voice instead of my own, with very minor substantive edits, and now I have to spend more time trying to combine these edits into a frankenstein combined email (plus the time I’ve now spent whining about it). This is how an email can take all morning! Supervisors do not do this! Change substantive things, but let your employees write in their own voice unless it is unprofessional or grammatically poor or otherwise lacking in some way other than not sounding like exactly what you would write. This is a recurring problem that I can’t really do anything about. I think the email as rewritten by 3 other people comes off as patronizing in this context- the agency staff involved are familiar with the background law here and don’t need me to recite it in every email. They just want an answer to the question. Anyway, I’m not in charge so I just need to suck it up and send this patronizing response with my name at the bottom. Arghhh. Vent over. I have no one else to whine to about it in my home office so thanks for listening.

    1. That’s annoying. I think some people feel useless if they don’t make any changes and they want to appear needed–I frequently approve documents junior attorneys send me with no changes, but I do sometimes second guess myself on whether I’m providing any value when I do so.

    2. Is your office (when not WFH) next to mine? Sounds too familiar. Sympathy.

    3. Oh god, my boss is the same way and I hate it.

       I got lectured recently for leaving punctuation marks off an internal informal chat room reminder (as in, I wrote “Acme Inc. closed today” instead of “Acme, Inc. closed today”) and had to rewrite and send the reminder over again, with boss watching through a screen share that I actually did so. Fortunately, my boss is full of themselves and emotionally dull enough to not recognize snark when I write “Boss graciously pointed out missing punctuation in the original reminder. Please find below the updated reminder with proper punctuation.” Boss thinks I am genuinely so grateful they bestowed their infinite wisdom upon me that I wanted to shout their praises to my coworkers.

       1. Bwhaaa haaa haaa. I love that you let everyone know the annoying second email was due to Boss’s …graciousness.

    4. Ugh, that’s annoying. Writing always suffers when it’s done by committee.

30. I realize this is a stretch, but Brianna Keilar’s shirt on CNN right now…I must know where it is from! It’s a satin looking, side pussy-bow blouse in a rose pink. I want it. I need it.

    1. Is it this?
       https://www.aliceandolivia.com/ROSINA-TIE-NECK-BLOUSE/CL000051001A661.html?lang=default

       1. No, but thank you for trying!

          1. Could you try DMing the anchor on Instagram and asking? You never know…she might actually reply. Or, in order to avoid the chance that she never sees your DM, you could just comment and ask under one of her photos. Worth a shot! Even if she doesn’t respond, someone who follows her might know and reply back :) Granted, this is all assuming she HAS Instagram.

31. Ladies, please pump me up a little bit. I am an associate at a small firm. I decided to leave and accepted a great government job. I’m really excited about the new role and I think it is the right move for me professionally.

    But I feel SO GUILTY about leaving. Not just because of my teammates, who are already struggling because we are understaffed (part of why I am leaving-I don’t see that changing). But also because of my clients who I care about and who, in some cases, hired my firm because they wanted me. I know they are the firm’s clients (and the firm would fight me if I were going to another firm and tried to bring them) – and I know my capable colleagues will do a great job representing them. And I know intellectually that if it were best for the firm to show me the door, they would. I know, in my mind, it’s a business decision, not a personal one. But I feel selfish and ashamed.

    Please help.

    1. I saw a post on instagram: “My job wouldn’t piss on me if I was on fire.” It resonated with me.
       One thing that helped with my own leaving guilt was to keep an eye out for opportunities and send them along to former colleagues who might be looking.

    2. I suck at quitting. I completely feel like I am letting people down. (I am so amazed at people who quit jobs so easily.) On the other hand, when I finally quit, I know it was right for me. You have to do what is best for you. And congrats on the new job.

32. I’m not sure how to best approach this issue, so hopefully someone can weigh in, or at least commiserate.

    My boyfriend is great with the grill, but when he cooks things on the stovetop, he tends to use way too much heat, and it produces a problematic amount of smoke (and also usually burns the outside of whatever he’s cooking). See we don’t have one of those ladylike smoke detectors that just beeps at you if the kitchen’s too smoky, instead we have a fire alarm, and it screams at us. Loudly. I’m no Julia Child myself, but I try to be very aware of how much smoke my cooking produces, and I almost never have the burner turned up all the way. I’m not his mom and I don’t want to be constantly correcting how he cooks, but I do want to address the smoke problem without being a condescending know-it-all.

    1. I don’t think this is a hard one, he can clearly see how much smoke his cooking creates. A simple “hon, you need to cook food on the stovetop at a much lower temperature so that it doesn’t smoke or burn – start with the setting between low and medium and slowly move up if you feel the food isn’t cooking through”.

    2. Ugh my husband used to do this too. It burns my eyes, cannot be good to breathe, and the smell sinks into the house. He has learned to avoid this better as I’ve communicated that the outcome is not okay even if the food turns out okay. Maybe your bf needs a George Foreman or to brave the weather and grill when what he really wants is to grill.

       1. Oh he would if he could! We’re in an apartment right now with no outdoor space, poor guy had to leave his grill in the care of a friend who does have a yard. He misses it so much. We’re planning to reclaim it when we buy a house.

          1. The indoor grill appliance is actually what worked for my BIL (yes he did this too) when grilling just wasn’t an option. We made fun of him a little about it, but he got the indoor grill and one of those steak subscriptions as a Christmas gift, and he honestly loved it.

    3. Ehh, my DH can be like this, and I’m not shy about telling him how much I dislike the house smelling for hours because of his chosen cooking method. He has gotten better. Turn down the heat and don’t use so much oil, dude!

    4. Don’t respond when the smoke alarm goes off. Stay in your chair reading your book or whatever. Make him deal with it. It’s the only way he will change.

       1. Or he’ll learn to remove the batteries from the smoke alarm in advance of cooking (real example!).

    5. Rather than telling him to turn down the burner — why don’t you focus on getting him to use proper ventilation?
       Turn on the fan or open a window.

       Food that isn’t seared well probably doesn’t taste nearly as good :)

33. Has anyone bought a Skylight picture frame and can comment on whether it’s worth the price? I think this would be so much better for sharing photos with the grandparents, but it’s spendy. (And my parents are not techy and do not get into gadgets at all, so I must confirm they’d actually use something like this!)

    1. I’m not familiar with that one but we got my in-laws a Nixplay and they love it. We send stuff to it all the time.

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