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And some of our latest threadjacks here at Corporette (reader questions and commentary) — see more here!
Some of our latest threadjacks include:
- What to say to friends and family who threaten to not vote?
- What boots do you expect to wear this fall and winter?
- What beauty treatments do you do on a regular basis to look polished?
- Can I skip the annual family event my workplace holds, even if I'm a manager?
- What small steps can I take today to get myself a little more “together” and not feel so frazzled all of the time?
- The oldest daughter is America's social safety net — change my mind…
- What have you lost your taste for as you've aged?
- Tell me about your favorite adventure travels…
Cat
In need of shopping help — in search of men’s leather gloves that work well on the new iPhone touchscreen. My problem is an abundance of options that have mixed reviews and nothing is more frustrating than gloves that SHOULD work but aren’t actually sensitive enough, or really only work if you hold your finger sideways, result in random phantom taps where you’re not expecting them, etc… anyone have a personal recommendations for a pair their SO loves?? Thanks!
anon a mouse
We got his & hers touchscreen gloves last year from Target, I think the Champion/C9 brand, and they’ve been great.
Anon searching for skincare
Skin care-type products that you think work well for dark circles? Nothing too outrageously priced please. My skin is in a good place so I’ve taken to wearing less face makeup (hence not necessarily wanting a concealer), but currently and for the next few months I will be hustling on less sleep + my family’s infamous dark circles are setting in as I start to get a bit older. I know there are those roller ball type things, but I haven’t tried any. I also am still relatively young so I haven’t picked up an eye cream yet. And unfortunately, as much as I’d want it, more sleep won’t be the most possible solution! In a perfect world…
needing coffee today
my favorite type of product to deal with dark circles when im not wearing a lot of makeup is like a tinted/brightening eye cream. I have never found any skin care product that actually treats my dark circles, so i just go with neutralizing them. Part of it is trial and error to figure out which product best suits your complexion, so here are a few I like.. tachta pearl tinted eye (comes in a purple pot)… expensive but lasts forever, first aid beauty eye duty triple remedy (has a metal applicator, tinted with a bit of brightener), or origins ginzing eye cream
Anon
I have genetic dark circles and wear a cover girl concealer (not sure the name, but it’s in a white lipstick-type tube) that is the best: not at all transparent, doesn’t move all day, easy to apply, blends well. It’s better than concealers three times the price and waaay better than highly rated ones like maybelline’s age rewind which is 1) too transparent to cover my dark circles and 2) comes off in like 2 hours. It is my desert island product.
Anon
I love the Clinique All About Eyes roller ball thing and their airbrush concealer. You can totally wear the concealer as a stand alone and a little goes a long way. I just dab a few dots under my eyes, around the edge of my nose (gets read from my cpap) and along my temple (I have dark veins there) and then blend with my finger. Takes less than a minute. It smooths right on under the eye after using the roller ball so it doesn’t get cakey at all.
Mrs. Jones
I have had dark circles for years thanks to genetics. The only thing that works for me, and I’ve tried many many things, is the Bobbi Brown Creamy Concealer Kit.
Anon
Have you tried a color correcting stick pre-concealer? That’s worked well for me – I use the multistick from live tinted (it comes in peach, coral, and red based on your coloring and how dark your circles are) before my foundation/concealor and it’s been a big help. I also use it on my cheeks for subtle color.
Anonymous
Seconding this. I use the Stila color corrector palette because I have some redness. I use the green color corrector for redness and the peach/coral for the dark circles.
anon
I’ve been using the It Cosmetics full coverage concealer. It’s pricey, but you only need a dab and it lasts forever. It seems to have some sort of slight reflective property to it, in addition to providing coverage.
Minnie Beebe
I puchased some on a whim at Ulta one day. Two thumbs up! Also, their CC cream is very good.
anne-on
I really like the Ole Henriksen Banana Bright for this purpose. A bit brightening, but not too shimmery, and not as $$ as the Tatcha/Sulwahsoo ones ppl rave over. Sadly a lot of the other options give me milia, but this one works brilliantly. I thin Sephora usually has a small sample size bundled with another product for around $25 if you want to try it out first – a little goes a long way!
Government Attorney
I cannot recommend Becca under eye brightener enough. It’s the holy grail product for me.
HM
+1! This product is amazing!
anon
I like the Neutrogena Hydroboost undereye gel cream for moisturizing.
For concealer, I still love the YSL touche eclat. It’s a little expensive normally ($35), but it’s available for less online.
Anon
I think sometimes people with dark circles feel the area under their eyes needs to be a very opaque white, which doesn’t look good on anyone except maybe people on TV. The more modern products are sheer and bounce light. So when you’re looking in a mirror you are still going to see darkness if you’re looking for it, but when you’re out and about you just look normal and refreshed. This is why YSA touché eclat is popular.
My personal recommendation Is Trish McEvoy instant eye lift. I apply a little eye cream or moisturizer first, then dot on the eye lift and pat into place with a wide feathery brush. I do this before my bb cream. Then I set everything with a very fine dusting of translucent powder that I apply with a big fluffy brush.
Anonymous
I like Laura Mercier secret concealer. Pricey but a little goes a long way because it has a lot of pigment. They push a brightening powder to go with it but I don’t like that- it was shiny and settled in fine lines.
Unemployment
For those of you who have experienced a longer stint of unemployment, how did you maintain your sanity?
LawDawg
I had a 14 month stint. I kept a schedule — the alarm went off every morning at close to the time it would go off for work. I did some exercise classes during the day and did the usual online searches daily or close to it. I also did some regular volunteer work to keep structure to my day. And nothing can keep your mood up like having to work in the kitten room of an animal shelter. I was also lucky because my partner is self-employed and works from home, so I had someone to talk to and eat lunch with. Even so, I had networking lunches or just would get together with friends, during the day, pretty regularly. Finally, I tried to find some gig jobs. I was able to do some work in my industry through some of my contacts. Good luck in your search!
Anon
I’m going to second this. My reasons for needing volunteer work were different from yours but volunteering at a cat shelter and dog walking at a different shelter really kept me sane. It took me a bit after college to find work and I was living back home with my parents. I know this is common and not at all akin to the issues with losing a job but my family home was a little bit difficult at that time (mom going through a mental health issue) and it was hard for me to be there. I spent hours at the gym everyday and also volunteered at a cat shelter to have productive reasons to be out of the house, in addition to my job searching.
I also ended up taking a job in another state where my days off were weekdays so I always worked weekends and sometimes night shift. Going weeks at a time being on an opposite schedule of everyone in my life started taking a toll and I was getting really depressed. Again, I understand this is different than being unemployed. I combated this by signing up as a dog walker at a local shelter and spending a couple hours a day walking dogs. I lived in an apartment at the time and couldn’t have a pet of my own. Spending time with the dogs really helped my loneliness. The dogs got to know me and were so excited to see me. I felt like I had purpose again.
Anony
It wasn’t easy…. I endured 4 bouts of unemployment, each lasting 3+ months, between 2011 and 2015. The thing that helped the most was setting up a schedule for myself, similar to how a work day would go. Get up and get ready in the AM, then go somewhere, eat lunch at lunch time, do something in the afternoon, eat dinner… the “go somewhere” would depend on why you’re unemployed – by choice? Go to the gym, take a class, learn a skill. Not by choice? Go to a coffee shop or library for free internet and apply for jobs, network, go out and meet people. Try to schedule out a plan for the whole week. Downtime was the devil for me – it made me depressed, anxious, and like a failure (but I was unemployed not by choice).
Anon
I kind of didn’t and became situationally depressed. However, one thing that did help was setting discrete windows of time to job search. Vaguely checking email all day and scrolling the job boards endlessly ratcheted up my anxiety tons, but limiting the search to an hour or two a day depending on whether there was anything to apply to helped me compartmentalize.
Anonymous
+1 on your first sentence. Eventually I started volunteering regularly, at a place (animal shelter) where you had to commit to showing up at a certain time. That was helpful, but I still felt like I was losing brain cells.
missannethrope
I too volunteered at an animal shelter! My husband called it “hugging fuzzy puppies.” I especially loved sitting with dogs who had severe stranger anxiety and having them slowly warm up to me. I tried to approach job hunting as a job itself so I wasn’t immersed in it at all hours. I also cooked and baked a lot and gained too much weight.
Anonymous
I was unemployed 3 months, not that long of a time, but the longest in my life. I forced myself to keep a schedule and often went to the library to apply for jobs during the day. Then when I got home, I’d turn it off to avoid crushing anxiety and compulsive job searching.
Anon
Setting up some kind of structure to the day; going outside to do job search work at a coffee shop at the same time every day; working out every day. Listening to Conan O’Brian’s graduation speech at Dartmouth on repeat. Listening to inspiring music on failure and persistence. These are some things that helped me tremendously.
anon
In addition to what’s already been suggested here (an alarm to get me out of bed early and a schedule with designated times for job-hunting and networking), I found it really helpful to have a checklist with self-care things on it (e.g. ‘get outside for at least 10 minutes’ and ‘meditate for at least 5 minutes’).
Anon
Venting a little bit here. Recently went to X firm’s holiday party, where I ran into two law school classmates. I always found them quite snobby and mean in law school, but almost a decade later, they have simply gotten worse. I tried to engage in small talk. It went like like this:
Me (sincerely to D1): “I’m so impressed that you made good use of both your law and business degrees by moving to job X (that utilizes both business and law background).”
D1: “Yeah, I figured even if things don’t work out, at least law school isn’t one expensive matchmaking service.” (referring to the fact that he met his spouse there).
Me (jokingly): “Haha, that’s great. You just made me realize that I might not have gotten my money’s worth.” (I did not date any classmates)
D1 smiles in a smug and knowing way at Douche 2 (also married to a classmate).
D1 shows off pictures of his new baby, then says, “We already have plenty of Y Ivy League and Z Ivy league school t-shirts for our baby, but we figured we had to get some state school ones just to mix it up.”
D2 laughes.
Me trying to laugh but seriously regretting joining this conversation.
D1: So where are you at now?
Me explaining I’m at a similar firm as D2.
D1 to D2: I didn’t know you invite competing law firms to your holiday party. (to D 2 while referring to me in third person in front of me).
D 2: I did not invite her. Anyway, it’s what we do. It’s good for business, since our model depends on referrals.
Me (smiling awkwardly): That’s right, D2 did not invite me. Another friend from this firm invited me. I did almost refer work to you though (silently thinking, if you weren’t so unpleasant, I would have).
D2 and D1 smirk knowingly at each other.
D1 starts apologizing to D2 about a recent failed effort where he tried to refer his company’s GC to use D2’s law firm and why it did not work out. He turns his back to me so as to block me from their little circle and the two began ignoring me completely.
Me (awkwardly to their backs): Alright, I’ll give you guys some privacy. It was good seeing you.
Silence
Both D1 and D2 are tall white guys, so no surprise there. Anyway, I don’t know why the people from class year in particular are so unpleasant. I used to wonder if I was too sensitive or something. But it was a clarifying moment where I realized that no, these are the most nasty people I have chatted with at this party, so they are the problem. More importantly, I don’t know why I put myself through these interactions. It’s like I have this need to be friendly, when it’s emotionally draining just to even interact with them. At this rate, I’m not going to refer them any business, and vice versa. On the other hand, they are clearly trying really hard to help each other out. And if this is the alumni network I signed up for, it occurred to me that people like D1 and D2 probably reap the benefits of our alumni network much more than I do (since our alumni network is mostly people like D1 and D2 only helping each other out). It’s sad, but it’s a fact that just hit me. It did give me the fuel to make sure that my own network is stronger however. Is there a different takeaway from this?
Suburban
In relationships, it’s often a hidden blessing to repel the type of people who aren’t your kind of people right from the start. I think that’s true in business as well as personal life. Keep your head up.
Houda
This might sound a bit cold hearted because I had some bitter experiences, so grain of salt. I have taught myself that work is not a congeniality contest, some abrasive people can be really good at what they do and if they are the best bet I have to get something done to the quality I want, then I’ll get over their nasty personality if it does not cross with my morals i.e. snobbish is fine, racist is not. This doesn’t mean I will be friendly, because I don’t have it in me to be sociable to people I don’t like, but I do acknowledge that some people are good at what they do and good for business, I’m fine giving them work or interacting with them strictly professionally. Of course, if I find someone equally good and with a nice attitude it’s a no brainer.
Coach Laura
Houda, this is perfect. Love this comment.
Anon
So, I feel you. People can be jerks. Unfortunately, there’s not much you can do about this other than what you did – smile politely and find a way out of the conversation. Next time you see them, give them a polite “hello, how are you” and keep it moving. Engaging in any deeper conversation with people like this is generally more frustrating than it’s worth.
Here’s the thing about networking, though – it’s sometimes surprising where referrals come from. Don’t automatically assume people like this will never send you potential clients. I have a side consulting business. There are a couple of people I interact with in the course of my side work that I really dislike – they’re just not nice people. Every time I see one of them coming, I cringe inside. However, both of them have sent me referrals and some of those referrals have turned into good clients. I have also referred clients to them (generally clients who are clients I feel I wouldn’t be a good match with, personality- or goals-wise). The clients I get sent tend to be people these two ladies think aren’t high-profile enough or lucrative enough for them, but they generally become excellent clients for me. Keeping up the contact is good – don’t get overly invested in it and don’t put more emotional energy into it than it’s worth. But I think every professional has “relationships” like this – people we can’t stand but are useful, for lack of a better word, for business/referral purposes.
Anon
Your takeaway is right. Don’t waste any more tune with these people – focus on building your network with people you like, respect, and want to cheer on. Referring business can give someone’s career a big boost, so focus that benefit on people who you want to succeed. As for the alumni network, I’m sure there are other slums of your law school that feel just as left out by people like these guys. Look for them, instead, but that will take some work as they are probably not going to alumni events.
You don’t have anything to prove and it doesn’t matter if these people like you. It is really liberating to let go of your past!
The original Scarlett
Perhaps it’s hard to tell without being there, but this just sounds like poor attempts at humor and I’m struggling to find what’s so terrible about it. I think a lot of people are socially awkward, and I’d be inclined to give the benefit of the doubt. I’ve known insufferable people too, but life is long and sometimes they change. Without something actively awful, I’d just keep them in your network – you never know, referrals and connections come from strange places.
Anonymous
Agree. I actually thought it was pretty normal until you got a bit weird about the joke about him not inviting a competitor (you). I would have come back with just a ‘yeah, actually Susie invited me. I referred her that xyz matter because my practice currently focuses on abc. I heard you’re doing more xyz as well, do you work with Susie much’ or whatever follow up is appropriate.
Any chance you’re overly sensitive to these guys because of past behavior? They weren’t the warmest but I would rate the interaction as neutral not terrible. Like they’re not judging you because you didn’t meet your spouse in law school, it was just funny that they both did.
Cat
yeah, that’s how I’m reading this too. Joking about competition attending the party seems pretty normal? The way you responded (basically telling them you’re avoiding sending them work)… I am not surprised they reacted coolly to that response… sorry.
busybee
I understand that we can’t read body language or other non-verbal communication through the computer screen, but this interaction sounds fine. I think your remark about “almost” sending them work was the most inappropriate part of the conversation. D1 especially asked you questions about your life and practice. That’s normal and friendly. You’ve mentioned them marrying classmates a lot, and that seems to be a sticking point for you. Why is it so bad they met their spouses in law school? I think maybe you’re projecting some insecurities here.
Anon
I never said it was bad that they met their spouse in law school. It was the way that they looked at each other, in this self-satisfied inside-joke way, after I made a self-deprecating joke. It made me feel very uncomfortable.
My remark about “almost sending” D2 work was premised on a prior interaction with him where I asked him about his practice to see if he might be a good fit for a potential client, and he said he would not be a good fit, which was why I almost referred him work, so that was the context of that comment. I think since he knows what I meant, it was not inappropriate.
Senior Attorney
I think the lesson here is that self-deprecating humor is not the way to go with people who are inclined to deprecate you all on their own!
Julia
Maybe they were not self-satisfied but instead felt awkward and at a loss for how to respond to you clumsily bringing up the fact that, basically, you’re still single? You took a self-deprecating comment by D1 about himself that was slightly poking fun at himself for not focusing in law school and instead using it as a dating service, and made it about you and how you DIDN’T meet anyone.
Anonymous
Yeah I think you’re being dramatic and over sensitive
Anonymous
+1
Anon
I really hate comments like this on this board.
Julia
To me it sounds like you’re taking this whole interaction way too personally. Commenting on “not inviting a rival firm” to the Christmas party is totally normal/standard — and frankly, it is a bit unusual, typically firm events are for clients.
I’d also say, these guys are not having their relationships with their spouses/law school classmates AT you, to use a helpful phrase I’ve seen on this board. Other people care about your relationship status a lot less than you do.
And the fact that they’re tall white guys is relevant how…? I mean, I get what you’re getting at, but there are plenty of tall white guys who are awesome, and plenty of short POCs who are not, so just…. yeah.
Flats Only
This +100. If you already thought they sucked, why bother talking to them unless forced to do so?
Ellen
+1. Dad says that I should NOT spend any time talking or associateing with anyone who does not respect me. He says to cultivate friends, not enemy’s. He had issues with guys in the CIA who wanted to take his job, so he made sure to make sure his superiors in Langley knew they were a-holes. It was easy to do so in the goverment, but not so much in a small law firm. I think that you will get over this by following this advise. Good luck to you! Yay!!!!!
anon
Let it go. If someone was a condescending a-hole before, it’s fine to talk to them and see if they’ve changed, but chances are, they haven’t. I just had this lesson reaffirmed for me this week. But no reason to let them take up more space in your mind.
And because you bothered to write it all out, I will add that the conversation just sounds awkward. You say you are awkward and they are smug, to me it just seems like everyone was awkward.
anon
Same, and I think I’m someone who is generally way too sensitive about perceived emotional slights. I’m not really seeing it here; it sounds like a conversation between people who don’t like each other that much and don’t have much in common.
Anon
Leaving the smirks out of it, which we will have to take your word for, this is a normal cocktail party conversation with people you don’t know well. It’s ok not to like these guys, but to have some sort of epiphany from it about how you were excluded or whatever is taking it a bit far. You come across was looking for insult here.
Anon
To the people who think I’m being over-sensitive, point taken, maybe I am. But it seems to me that it’s flat out rude for D1 and D2 to be talking about me in the third person right in front of me, before my comment admitting that someone else invited me. Also, the joke about getting state school shirts for his baby is just so condescending, that I don’t think I need to describe the way in which he said it for that to come out.
Anonymous
They weren’t talking about you in the third person. D1 made a natural joke about inviting the competition and D2 answered him. I’m not sure how D2 could have phrased that differently.
Anon
+1
And the comment on state schools is snobby but I’m not sure why you’re so up in arms about it. Lots of people are snobby about the schools they attended. Particularly lawyers.
Anon
wait, what? So I am not allowed to be bothered by a snobby comment because lawyers by definition are snobby? Wow, some of you guys are funny.
Anonymous
You said they were ‘quite snobby and mean’ and have only gotten worse. A bad joke about a state school isn’t anything except standard small talk in biglaw. Like of course it’s snobby but a lot of biglaw things are snobby.
Anon
Oh, are we offending you?
*smirks at other posters*
Anon
Of course you can be bothered by it but it’s so common I don’t know why you’re letting this take up emotional bandwith. Snobby people don’t deserve free rent in my brain. When people say snobby things I laugh to myself at their own insecurities and move on with my life. It’s pretty liberating. I suggest you do the same.
Anon
To Anon at 11:36AM, No, I just think you are a mean and horrible person.
Anon
To anon at 11:36 AM, can we just not? I am always surprised by how nasty some commentators are on this blog.
Anon
The thing is, this *is* feedback. Saying you’re being overly sensitive is actually good career advice, while “poor you” is not. That’s what we’re supposed to be about around here, right?
Like the poster below who had issues with her relationship with a partner and his secretary. She got basically the same feedback and has had a lightbulb moment. That’s going to help her.
If you’re not open to people saying you’re overreacting and will only accept sympathy; I don’t honestly know why you’re posting on here.
Anon
Wait a minute. I already said “point taken.” Giving feedback is different from downright vicious. Whoever tries to “smirk” at someone when giving advice? If you do that, then please stop trying to give “advice” because that is incredibly hurtful.
Cat
Yeah, I can easily see this happening. OP, I think your general annoyance at these guys caused you to view the whole conversation through the lens of “this will be unpleasant and snobby” but I really don’t think the joke about the competition was rude or a slight.
The onesie thing, eh, kind of snobby but… I’m assuming you all attended one of the Ivies mentioned, no? He probably thought you would be in on the joke…
January
Was your law school a state school? I didn’t really understand the significance of that detail.
Julia
FWIW, I think the state school comment could also be read as self-deprecating by the lawyers. Like, “Oh yeah, we all know we Ivy league law grads are too obsessed with our alma maters, we need to put some state school stuff in the mix so our kid will have a chance at being normal.” I.e., they’re valuing adding in state school stuff. An actual snobby comment would have been like, “Yes, we have plenty of Yale and Harvard onesies, and believe me that the State U onesie baby’s aunt got him went straight in the trash! Wouldn’t want people getting the wrong idea! :laughs in snobbish:”
Anon
Okay, so I think that this is half that they’re being d !cks and half that you’re projecting the fact that you already don’t like them onto this conversation. Some of it was bad (the state school comment is definitely weird), some of it was you being a little too sensitive (most of the rest). The good news is that you don’t have to regularly be in contact with these people!
Seventh Sister
I went to a law school renowned for its alumni network (part of a larger institution with a similar rep). Honestly, I went to law school with some lovely people and also went to law school with some folks that I never need to see again. I feel like at most of my college alumnae events, people want to know *how* you are doing, but my law school events it’s about *what* you are doing and whether it can benefit them to know you. My only solution (coping mechanism?) is to keep it sort of surface-level pleasant and drift away from the douche-lords.
Houda
I need office knicknacks inspo.
I am still in celebration mode after my promotion (yay). I decided to not buy something specific to celebrate but rather invest in things that make the grind less taxing. I have been away so I want my desk to be different when I am back, so I am in my little space, new year new me and all that.
What things or little luxuries do you keep at your desk/drawers. It is not about making it home-y but more about pick me ups for long days and little breaks. I already have a massive plant which is provided and cared for by the building management. We have snacks and drinks and cutlery in a fully equipped office kitchen. I don’t hang posters and don’t decorate, I only have one photo up. I’m looking for more comfort things not display things.
So far I stocked my drawers with: hand cream, cuticle pen, hand sanitiser, lots of good quality notbeooks, a change of clothes if I’m dressed casual but get dragged to an express meeting, some medication, and tea bags.
Anon
I would keep some quality chocolates and hand lotion.
Anon
I could keep quality chocolates for the first day I brought them in and no longer, but I agree on the hand cream. Make sure it’s something that absorbs enough that you can still use your keyboard without getting it gross.
NOLA
I keep a little cute bucket of dark chocolate in my office, a sewing kit, glasses repair kit, cute little snack ramekins (not sharing with the philistines in the staff lounge because they’ll disappear) that allow me to portion things out, nail polish for quick repairs. I also keep a cashmere blend wrap on the back of my chair because I get cold a lot. I don’t use the overhead lights anymore. I bought a torchiere and a lamp.
Anonymous
I have a small makeup bag with Lavender hand cream, a chapstick, a neutral lip gloss, a travel hair brush and a tiny lint roller. And safety pins.
Anon
I keep a travel yoga mat, Betabrand Dress Pant Yoga Pants for long nights (and 5-minute yoga session behind closed doors), a massage ball, and a reclining armchair in my office. ALL the vitamins and mineral supplements. Also, protein bars for quick snacks when I’m stress eating or can’t find time for a meal.
anon a mouse
I’d look for things that will really increase your physical comfort at your desk. A chair pad with a massaging and/or heating function. A separate shoulder massager, or one of those rice sacks that you can heat in a microwave to put on sore muscles. A good footrest.
Also, a fancy notepad or mug rug to make you smile.
Thanks to the poster who suggested keeping vitamins at your desk, I am totally going to do that.
Ses
Just popping in to say congrats :)
WWYD
Advice please! I work in a small firm as Senior Counsel under a particular partner. We have been working together more than five years and have been a good team. About a year ago, a new secretary was hired for us. Secretary seems to have created a rift between me and Partner. It is to the point that I asked the office manager to reassign me to a new secretary, which the office manager eventually did. Office Manager mentioned a number of times “In order for this [splitting off into separate secretaries] to work, Partner needs to back you up.” Yesterday I emailed Partner and Secretary about a post-trial deadline to calendar, stating, the calculation is X calendar days plus X days for mailing. Immediately Partner replied to both of us “Are you sure about that? You don’t add X days for mailing. Am I missing something?” Partner and I both know that prior to this trial, Partner has only done one trial in his career. I have done several trials, and much more recently. On top of that, I researched the deadline and consulted with the two heads of our law & motion departments on how to calculate it. Partner was just being cautious and shooting off thoughts off the top of his head without doing any research (this is fine with me since I obviously want to make sure we get things right). I went and talked the deadline over with Partner rather than replying to the email. Secretary then sends an email asking if she should research how to calculate the deadline. It suddenly occurs to me that these types of email from Partner are probably why Secretary has gotten to the point where there have been incidents where Secretary would not take my instruction because she “knew better” even on litigation documents that were being set up for my signature. Question: Would you point this out to Partner or just say nothing because it is a lost cause? My read on Partner is he kind of thinks I’m being dramatic about Secretary.
Anonymous
With the caveat that I don’t know law firms, I can’t figure out what the secretary did that is so terrible. It sounds as if she merely saw a loose end and took initiative to research something and free you/the partner up to do other stuff. I’d be appreciative of someone who would take care of tasks like this and let her get on with it. But maybe in a law firm, that’s not what secretaries do, and she overstepped?
WWYD
OP here. Thanks for the thoughts. I don’t think the Secretary did anything wrong at all in this situation. What I am questioning is whether I should mention to Partner that these types of emails where he is “thinking out loud” are probably coming across to Secretary as though Partner thinks I don’t know what I am doing; therefore Secretary feels justified in refusing to make changes for me on documents that I am signing and submitting. (Which is hopefully not going be an issue in the future now that I have a different Secretary).
Anonymous
Absolutely not. You must chill. You’ve already been told to stop being dramatic
LittleBigLaw
This is not something to address with Partner. Just close the loop on the email. “Secretary, Partner and I have discussed and confirmed the below. Please calendar for X date. Thanks!”
Anonymous
You’re being dramatic about secretary get a grip
WWYD
Point taken. =) I realize I’ve pretty much gone into full-on “B eating crackers” at this point and can’t think straight. It’s a situation that has just been slowly escalating for months.
Hj
That poor secretary.
WWYD
Can you elaborate (even though I realize it will likely be tough for me to swallow)? I feel like I’ve become out of control over this situation– not the incident yesterday, but just with the team dynamic in general. And I realize it sounds crazy to be asking all these questions about a minor incident, but I’m just using this as an example.
Anon
She’s in the middle of conflicts between you and the partner.
Anon
It sounds like she’s trying to be helpful, if you have side convos with the partner and she doesn’t know about them it’s not like she can act on that info. She sounds like a good secretary who takes initiative, tbh. If it bothers you send a clarifying note after you talk to partner so that she’s aware.
WWYD
I agree, she was trying to be helpful and was acting reasonably given the circumstance. My question was about whether I should mention to Partner that his emails are creating the impression that he thinks I am not competent. But based on the reactions here, and after writing all these responses I am now thinking that I am being completely ridiculous!!! Time to let it go. =D
Anonymous
I don’t see how the emails are creating that impression. She is clearly new in her job and trying to show initiative by noticing when she might be able to help and proactively offer to do that. In this case, you didn’t need the help but she couldn’t have known that.
Anonymous
Just talk to Secretary in person. “Partner and I discussed it and are in agreement that the deadline is X. Thanks for following up!”
Anonymous
I’m in-house so it’s a little different, but my boss is pretty risk averse and does this double check frequently on things. It’s not personal and he routinely states otherwise that he thinks I am strong and have a bright future at the company, so I absorb it as him CYA-ing only. Fine by me because he is the one who has to answer to the GC if something goes wrong. I think you are taking this way too personally. The partner is CYA-ing. Confirm the path forward and move on.
Anon
I can emphasize. This particular incident does not cross the line. But it sounds like she may have been less respectful of you than your boss, which does happen sometimes. Your best bet would be to document every interaction you have with her in email, so if she ever says anything inappropriate, you can forward it to HR or your boss to request for a different secretary. I had this happen before, and documentation and insistence were crucial.
Anon
She’s not being disrespectful, she’s getting conflicting directions and going with the ones from the more senior supervisor. That’s what she should be doing.
Anon
Yeah sounds like she is CYAing. Your issue is with partner, not her, and TBH it’s probably going to continue even if you have a new secretary because she’ll still be stuck in the middle in any matters you are on with partner. If so, partner needs to tell her she can make changes that you request even if they conflict with his prior guidance.
Anonymous
OMG this poor secretary
AnonTechie
Arghhhhh, interviewing is so hard when your job sounds . (AND IS) super cool!!!
I have a job in what would be most tech people’s top 3-5 experimental/research-y tech areas that feels like working on sci-fi. I work at a large corp and get paid well. I work with a wonderful team of scientists and engineers and we recently launched a public pilot. Everything is awesome!! Except companies are under immediate profit pressure and cutting R&D spending on our division. We get paid for a few months but it is SO HARD every time a recruiter asks me to describe what i do and responds with “Whyyy would you want to leave that!!!” umm, because the job, team and everything will cease to exist in 6 months (and that makes me sad)
Not sure what ‘m looking for, so thanks for reading
anon a mouse
Are you interviewing for similar jobs? If so, emphasize that you love the work, and hope for something similar, but you want something with more stable funding. Or that you are hoping to find something where the work is less susceptible to the profit pressures. (Not a scientist, not sure if this is a thing that exists.)
That sounds really hard and stressful — good luck!
Anon
“I love my job, but of course I’m always open to other interesting opportunities!”
Anon
What’s the best type of Christmas tree that is on the small size and is safe for cats? I live in an apartment and can’t fit a huge one, but I’m also trying to be cautious about getting something my cat won’t eat. She loves strong smells of all kinds and she finds plants/trees enticing. TIA!
Anon
A fake one!
Anonymous
I have an artificial tree and my 5 cats (and previous two who have passed) have never messed with it.
Anonymous
A real tree is fine. She may try to drink the water or chew on the stems but it’s fine. I’ve never had an issue with any of my cats.
CountC
Same. We have had cats and real trees for 39 years with no adverse consequences. Unless you count a few broken ornaments!
Anon
Just venting a bit.
My job has been super extra hard lately. The last three months have been a new crisis every day at work with clients and partners coming down hard on me, I’ve cried at my desk due to stress just about every day, and I worked through the holiday and will work through Christmas. It’s not going to let up soon.
I’m in biglaw, and I know that means I may not get sympathy here since I’m getting paid for my time and this is the job etc etc. but I’m a human and this is painful and emotionally battering. For a while, I was thinking that I would try for partner (I’ve gotten great feedback), but this stretch (while I know it’s temporary and won’t last) is seriously making me reconsider things. I am worried though that as a senior associate in corporate (transactions) I won’t be able to find another job that is better.
I guess I just want to vent and also to hear encouragement if anyone has it. Just feeling pretty hopeless as I start another day with stress crying. Every day I tell myself tomorrow will be better and every tomorrow has a new crisis.
Anonymous
Stop. Your life is worth more than this. Don’t work tnrw. Just don’t. Don’t work on Christmas. None of your work matters at all in the big picture. You matter. To yourself and your loved ones. Literally any job is better than this.
anon
Been there. I guess what helped me the most was reaching the conclusion that the stress would stop *eventually.* Either the situation would get better, or I could and would walk if the job continued to be terrible.
I have to say, though, BigLaw or not, being forced to work through Christmas is pretty messed up.
Anon
Are you working through Christmas because everyone is or because you feel like you have something to prove/you’re on this pattern and fearful of stopping it? No one else is going to tell you to take care of yourself so we can tell you here. Don’t destroy yourself for your job – they’d fire you in a second if it would benefit the firm. Find ways to protect your time and set reasonable boundaries. I’m sorry you’re going through this period and I hope it gets better soon – and it will.
anon
You’re allowed to dislike biglaw and find it terribly difficult even if you’re getting paid for it! Your experience is valid– this is really, really hard. (What isn’t cool is dropping your obligations because you don’t like it, but that doesn’t sound at all like what you’re doing.) Please don’t add another layer of distress to your situation by beating yourself up for feeling awful. Also, I think that you are definitely in a fine position to get another job– that’s part of the allure of biglaw, right? To get great experience doing sophisticated work that you can take somewhere else? I’m sure there are many midsized or boutique firms with more reasonable expectations that would love to have you.
Anon
+1 – I had this kind of deal one year and for me (combined with a lot of other life factors) led to some situational anxiety/depression. I toughed it out for a few months (they were not good months in my life or for my hours) and then transitioned to a smaller law firm that worked with smaller clients – I do the same type of work, but because everything is for less money, all the expectations are a lot more reasonable.
Anon
Working through Christmas seems abnormal to me, even in biglaw.
Blueberries
I was in biglaw and I have sympathy and empathy for you. I don’t think it’s good for anyone (clients, firms, the lawyers themselves) that some lawyers are subjected to extreme stress and hours.
I understand the factors that lead to how firms are run, but I don’t think it has to or should be this way. I found it way more enjoyable and less stressful to work for a partner who was a skilled manager than to work for a partner who was not skilled in managing, even with hours being equal.
Biglaw can be a lot of money, but it’s not nearly as big a deal as people inside biglaw believe. This job will get better or you can and will find another job, whether at another firm or somewhere else.
I know it’s hard when you’re working a ton, but please take care of yourself. The firm certainly won’t.
MJ
First, deep breath. If you are truly feeling overwhelmed, call your EAP and set up a time to talk with a counselor. Second, if you are feeling this overworked, speak with your staffer or practice group admin, and say that you need additional resources for a deal. It’s only 12/6. If you already know you’re working later in the month, and you’re in biglaw, surely additional bodies can be thrown at the deal. Part of being a good senior is delegating. Truly. Third…know that you can take disability if you need to. It’s there for that. If you’re not looking to make partner, you don’t need to worry about how this will “affect your career.” Because you know what–being a senior associate at XYZ biglaw firm…that is impressive. You already have a great resume.
Last, I know you think there are _no other exits_ but firm life. I used to think that way too. Life in house is not necessarily boring. People value your expertise. There’s lots of things happening in-house, and if you’re a senior corporate transactional person, those job exist. I promise you there is light at the end of the tunnel. But in order for your life to change, you must allow yourself the space to change it. So please, make it a priority in December to touch up your resume and deal sheet, and think about applying to jobs in late December and January. You can do this!!!
All the hugs. Remember to take time to go for a walk, head down to SBUX to grab a peppermint mocha or just run out to get a sandwich and give yourself some mental space. You are not your job. This deal may be crazy but it need not make you crazy. There is light at the end of the tunnel. If you’re going through hell, keep going. But if you need to take a break for mental health reasons, take one. Do it. Truly.
Oh–and book a vacation for post-signing or post-closing or post-effectiveness–whatever you know will not be a bad time. Take a 4 or 5 day weekend and just do that. Do that now. So you have something to look forward to! You got this!!!
Anonymous
Hi Hive,
I am the ‘rette whonearlier this week asked if I could prompt a firm I had interviewed with, on feedback for appointment. They today wrote back saying that I would not be getting the opportunity. I thought I did well and I am in shock. Mostly because I felt aligned to the comoany in personal values and team purpose.
I want to crawl into bed and cry.
Anonymous
Who had earlier*
Batgirl
I will just say that while this sucks, you really don’t know the full story so don’t beat yourself up needlessly. Lots of companies have internal or favorite picks and still go through the full interview process. Some people are great but overqualified…or you realize they wouldn’t be happy in the position for some other reason. I recently interviewed five people for a position, and truthfully, any one of them could have done the job. But some were better fits than others, and it really wasn’t about their interview.
January
+1. I found out around this time two years ago that I didn’t get (what was for me at the time) a dream job. After I got the news, I spoke with the hiring manager, who explained that they had two very well-qualified candidates. Ultimately, I think the person who was hired had slightly better qualifications for the role than I did, so I came to accept that it wasn’t solely a matter of me blowing the interview.
And for what it’s worth, although the rejection really hurt at the time, I’m very happy with where life has taken me since then. I don’t necessarily believe that everything happens for a reason, but sometimes it’s a helpful philosophy to adopt when you’re faced with a major disappointment. Take the weekend to mourn, and then figure out how you want to move forward.
Ellen
I agree with January. They always have a lot of candidates that can fill the job, so even tho it wasn’t you, do not take it personally. I would not be concerned as you sound competent, so other jobs will materialize for you. Good luck!
Anon
+2 there is so much that goes into hiring that you aren’t privy to. I’ve been there and it totally sucks but someone told me once that an interview isn’t a competition. The best person often doesn’t get the job. Maybe they thought you were overqualified. Maybe they had a great internal candidate but “had” to interview an external candidate to check the box so there was no real chance for you anyways. Maybe they no longer need to fill the position. Maybe the CEO told them to hire his nephew. These are all real things that happen all the time! Not getting a job often has absolutely nothing to do with you or your interview. It totally sucks but try not to beat yourself up over it. Hugs.
Anon
Hugs. I was in a similar boat last year but later found out from someone that there was a problem with gender discrimination by the leadership at that job. So in hindsight, I am really relieved that I dodged a bullet! I ended up finding another job that is a much better fit. Don’t beat yourself up and focus your energy on the next best thing.
Anonymous
I was just venting the frustration of things not goung as I had hoped. I feel ready for change and hoped the new year is it. I know present situation does not negate that reality but I was really hoping to be done interviewing.
Why would anyone go through multiple rounds of interviewing if they were intent to hire some favorites from the start? Seems very inefficient.
I will prepare and someday, my chance will come. ~Abraham Lincoln.
Anon
I totally get it. It’s foe sure a bummer.
As for why people go through multiple rounds of interviews even though there is another favorite, some places require this process before someone can be hired. It’s inefficient but it gives people cover when they are accused of favoritism or whatnot. There was a very funny 30 rock episode with this theme where the writers try to rig an audition process to get the person they wanted from the start to get the role. It’s a whole lot of process to get to the result they want.
And even if they didn’t have a favorite, there are so many things that could have been going on in the background that you have no idea about.
All this to say, vent away, interviewing is the worst. But try not to take any rejection too personally because you don’t have all the information.
Anon
You don’t know that they did that, though. Maybe they went through multiple rounds of interviews and just picked somebody else. Obviously they thought you were a good candidate, or they wouldn’t have interviewed you so many times.
AFT
I say this as someone who was repeatedly second choice from inhouse jobs over a period of two years (!!!) when I was desperately trying to escape my biglaw gig: Think of it as a vote of confidence that they had you come this far in the process. For me, I felt like the “second choice” ranking was largely because people liked me and thought I had good experience, but ultimately went with people that they also liked + had good experience + had some personal connection to (like they had been outside counsel for the firm, or were recommended by someone with close ties to the GC, etc.)
At the time, my firm’s weak alumni network and the fact that my clients were not hiring put me at a disadvantage. But… weirdly, interviewing a lot helped that! I ultimately got offers from two companies that I had been a finalist for a prior job with, and had no other experience/relationship with (and now that I think about it… I was called about interview for a third one after accepting the offer… and had a second round of interviews with a differnet co that didn’t lead anywhere.
So this experience s*cks and you have permission to wallow all weekend and eat peppermint ice cream and sugar cookies (or whatever seasonal treat you want to). But try to think of one more vote of confidence and great experience? Good luck in your search.
Anonymous
Such a warm message.
I promise to give myself one week off then resume the hunt week after next.
Thank you all.
anon
This hive is so good for gift recommendations. I need recs for Xmas gift for parents in late 70s who have everything and tend to hold on to more items than they need….I have been giving them a nice food basket with wine, cheeses etc over the past 7 years or more…would like to change it up with other consumables or useful item for older parents who have everything. Ideas appreciated….thank you!
Skipper
I like season tickets for this. Are they sports fans, opera fans, time with the grandchildren at the local children’s museum fans?
Cat
is there anything that could use a replacement or upgrade? This could be anything from new coffee mugs (they can ditch all the ugly free ones that accumulated!) to garden planters to a tea kettle. Fancy copper watering can if they have indoor plants?
Magazine or newspaper subscription? NYTimes crossword subscription?
Are they snowbirds? Fresh pool towels or outdoor stuff?
To change up the type of food gift — spices? olive oil? tea or coffee?
Houda
What about a voucher for an upgraded splurgy version of service or activity that they do in more economic ways? e.g. a deep clean of their house, a medical pedicure, high end haircut and wet shaving experience, if they like some form of art: more premium seats or with a dine-in experience
Anon
Gift certificate for local theater? My in-laws are similar and we get them experience gifts. Wine tasting class, museum tour.
anon
If they hang onto things longer than necessary, how about replacing some of those routine household things like dishcloths, dish towels, kitchen rug, doormat, etc.? I personally love getting gifts like this because it saves me the work of finding them myself. And, we’ve been doing this more for my ILs, also in their ’70s, and they seem to really appreciate it.
mascot
Replacement/upgrade gifts are the best. I replaced my parents steak knives that were wedding gifts from 25 years ago after doing some research on best options. It wasn’t even an expensive set that I bought, but they have raved about how wonderful they are. Which compared to their old dull ones, these are amazing.
potato
Do they entertain? How about fancy chocolates or Christmas crackers.
Julia
Harry and David gift baskets are beautiful for this, I think. Very festive and seasonal, and a pretty big splurge.
Anonymous
Get the pears. They are the best.
anon
OP here…I’m thinking of going with Harry and David….they do appreciate great fruit. Unfortunately they don’t like to go out much and they don’t use service or restaurant certificates.
Kale
This is a total 1 percent problem. DH got a raise this year and now makes way more than me (we started our making the same salary about 15 years ago but his company gives raises each year whilst my law firm is all about my own collections each year, which hasn’t changed that much from year to year ever since I had kids). This is great, but it had a surprising effect of me feeling like my job/career is not as important or needed since I’m never going to make that much and what’s the point since if I take care of the home and kids and allow him to do even more work, his earning potential is even higher. I am not going to quit or do anything drastic like that, but I’m seeking advice from anyone who has been in my shoes. The thing is that I do like my work (lawyer at a law firm) but realizing that the pay and ability to support my family had a lot to do with it.
Anonymous
Get over it? He can still walk out anytime. You matter and your independence and self reliance is important. Regardless of how much money he makes.
Anonymous
If you’re not loving your current job, can you reframe as his financial success is buying the family freedom for you to pursue a job that makes you happy? Happy wife, happy life and all that. Alternatively, think of your salary as the equivalent amount of his salary as your family base salary and focus on what the extra amount of his new salary can do for your family – more visits to relatives, better schools, more travel, etc.
Anon
This. I would look at it as giving you freedom to pursue whatever you want to pursue – maybe that’s a more challenging but less highly-compensated career, maybe that’s working part-time so you see your kids more, maybe it’s opening the bakery you’ve always dreamed about. This is a blessing.
For my part, I’m in a similar situation. I plan to continue working until my youngest is through college and then retiring in my early-mid 50s to do all the travel (my husband travels internationally for work a lot and I can go with him and explore new places for just the cost of my plane ticket).
The original Scarlett
Just remember that you never know what happens and it’s key for you to keep a professional career. Think of it as family insurance – it’s a hedge against disability, job loss, and bad things. If you can comfortably live/save on his earnings, then maybe dedicate yours to something fun like travel, nice home, whatever makes you happy so you feel some value from what you do. I think there can be an over focus here on saving money, and maybe this is your permission to spend some and enjoy that.
Anon
Don’t forget that you are your own person and not merely a part of a marital unit.
When I got divorced, my ex husband made more than 2x what I did. I now live happily on my own salary with a modest amount of child support. I have no idea what I would have done had I not had my own career. I was not planning to get divorced, and then I did.
And don’t forget that it’s important to set an example for your kids (of all genders) that all adults work and support themselves.
anon
You’re still supporting your family, though — I would not jump to the conclusion that your career “means less” because your husband is paid more. What if you started framing yourself as a couple who has dual primary careers? The pay is only one factor of contribution, IMO. Besides, who knows — the tables could turn, and in a few years, YOU might be the higher earner.
Julia
Why is his earning potential higher if you stay home and take care of the kids? Is he currently missing out on work opportunities because he is taking over childcare where you otherwise would be? Could you cover those missed opportunities with additional help (paid for by his additional money) like a nanny?
As for “what’s the point,” I ask myself this routinely because my husband makes over 2x what I make (which as I always say, is plenty). Here are some answers:
– I like working more than being at home
– Our benefits are through my company
– I’m able to “home from work” a lot, so to the extent I do that, doing that stuff while actually not working would only cost us money, it wouldn’t save us any time
– The kids actually thrive at school – they are learning, they have friends, they play games, they sing songs — far more than what I would do if I were a SAHM
– The season of small kids at home full time is so short – maybe 10 years, max, versus the 30+ years of your career you have in front of you — is it worth giving up one for the other?
– Think about the things you outsource now that you might feel pressure to do yourself if you weren’t working, and whether you’d want to do them — for example, if you have a cleaning service, would you feel pressure to clean the house yourself and if so would you want to?
– Think about the investment you’ve already made in your career — yes, it’s truly a sunk cost, no question, but still worth considering. Long years of school and work got you up to this point — why discard it all?
– And of course, the lurking point that yes your husband could leave you at any time. It’s not my primary motivator for working by any means (if that happened, my life would be so destroyed that any mitigation would hardly matter), but it is something to keep in the back of your mind.
Hope this is helpful.
FP
This will sound incredibly crass but it’s the truth – I married into a wealthy family. I sometimes wonder why I continue to hustle and work at my very well-paid job, since none of the other wives in my family work and technically we do not need my income. However, I do get some real value out of working, and I really like knowing that I could survive on my own, G*d forbid something happens to my husband or my marriage. Not sure if this would apply in your situation but because my husband works for his family’s investments, he doesn’t receive health insurance or retirement or any traditional work benefits. I am the person who supplies that for my immediate family. So I look at it in what I can give my kids / husband. For us, it’s having health insurance that saves money for other things, and a 401K match that’s free money we wouldn’t get elsewhere that will continue to grow. For you, it could be that your salary is what allows your kids to do whatever they like – lessons, vacations, etc.
Anon
Feel free to ignore my shamelessly curious question, but how much wealth did you marry into that your husband works for his “family’s investments?” I promise no judgment, just piqued my curiosity!
FP
They have commercial properties! So he manages those and their employees who run day to day stuff.
Anon
Your situation strikes me as a bit different – if you’re the only one with health insurance and a 401(k), your job seems absolutely essential to the family. So many wealthy people lose everything, I can’t imagine pinning my family’s financial future entirely on a family business, no matter how lucrative (to say nothing of the divorce/death/disability factor).
anon
You’re also supporting your family in non-financial ways. You’re teaching your kids an important lesson: that work isn’t something you do solely for financial need and that should otherwise be vilified, and that both parents contribute both to the mechanics of running a home/family and their own careers.
anne-on
Get over it. Situations change. DH and I now make similar salaries but he outearns me on bonuses. However, his team is in a serious down year performance wise. If we ONLY had his income to depend on based on his high bonus years we’d be facing some seriously tough decisions.
I also grew up in a family where dad had the flash sales job and mom had the slow and steady job (teaching to principle). Guess what? Dad got laid off in his 50’s and never was able to find another high paying job and mom’s career took off once we were teenagers – her pension and salary primarily funded their retirement/savings for the last 15-20 yrs since the crash.
Anon
His job doesn’t make yours less important or less meaningful. They’re not related at all!
Anon
If your earning potential has flattened out since you had kids, can you use some of the money from his raise to outsource some things (nanny, housecleaning, etc.) so that you can put in more at work in order to increase your earning potential? It sounds like you’ve already been doing a lot of the kid/home stuff and that has stalled your career while allowing your husband’s to improve, so really you should consider his raise to also be yours since your contributions made it possible.
If roles were reversed and you had career growth while your husband stagnated, would you consider his contribution to be less valuable? I have always made more than my spouse (and almost always made enough to support us without his income), but I don’t see his contributions as less significant at all. I’m in a well-paid industry and he’s in a poorly paid one. We both work roughly the same amount and both of our incomes go into our budgetary and spending decisions. I don’t see my higher income as me having higher value in the relationship; if either one of us made more or less, we would adjust our lifestyle accordingly.
Anon
Does DH’s job have long-term stability? DH makes about 50% more than me at the moment. I work at a small law firm, so my raises have been small, but I stand a good chance at making partner in the next few years. DH works in tech, and he is currently highly in demand. He feels like he may get displaced as he gets older, given how these companies work. So, he does not feel like his high salary is permanent. This concern of his also comes from the fact that his dad (who was in a similar role) was forced to retire early at 60. In contrast, lawyers in my area routinely practice until their 70+ and make subtantially more money. DH routinely jokes about retiring “when I make partner” etc. or moving to a lower stress position. So, that is how this disparity makes sense to me. Maybe you’re in a similar situation?
Anon
You are not in competition with your husband. Any money you can bring in is still valuable whether it’s $1 or $1 million.
Anon.
Think about it this way – if your husband said or implied the same thing about your career that you just did, you’d probably full on RAGE at him (I know I would!). So don’t let yourself fall into that trap either.
My DH and I have bounced between pay scales where I made way more than him, he made double me, and now we’re about equal. But all along we could have supported our family on just one of our salaries. We joke that Plan A is we both have jobs, Plan B is one of us has a job, Plan C is we end up farming somewhere. Because we’re living Plan A, we both have the freedom to throw up our hands and walk out if things at work get REALLY bad. Neither of us have ever gotten to that point, but on bad days at work, knowing that I could bail if I needed to and my kid would still eat and my mortgage still get paid – it makes things a bit better. And my husband has the same luxury which I know he appreciates – everybody has bad days at work.
I am also adamant that because we can support our family on one salary, the second salary is extra/bonus that should be used accordingly. Which means when my sometimes very frugal husband started really stressing about the cost of plane tickets to Hawaii for Thanksgiving (or other similar fun thing), my immediate response can be “I work so that we can do fun things. If we’re not going to do them, then we need to re-evaluate that plan.” (Note that these fun things are well within budget after savings goals have been met etc.) And that’s an empty threat because I work for more than that, but it was enough to snap him back to reality.
anon
My husband is an equity partner in biglaw and makes $3 million a year. I’m a GC and make $400k. In the abstract, I make a ton of money. Compared to him, I’m definitely not “supporting the family.” That said, (i) it makes me feel good to know that I could take care of myself and our child if he died or lost his job or left me, (ii) his job is super stressful and my work means that if he does decide he needs to move into a lower-stress, lower-salary job, he can and we’ll still be absolutely fine, (iii) I think my working is important both for my daughter and for young women who need to see successful female lawyers and (iv) I enjoy my job and my happiness matters.
Anon
Fwiw, I’ve always thought that you’re “supporting the family” if the family could live on your salary alone. So by that definition, you support your family, as does your husband.
Anon
+1 I’ve heard people talk about how the lower earner’s money is bonus/in the higher tax bracket/extra, but really there’s no reason why the higher earner’s money should be counted first.
nuqotw
I make ~2.5x spouse’s income and we could make it on my income alone, but neither of us thinks for one moment that his income isn’t important to our family. Our (financial) lives would look very, very different if he did not work. I don’t know your HHI or broader financial situation, but in all likelihood the same is true for your household – your income and your work matter.
Anon
I have been processing a similar change in our family dynamic. DH got a new job and now makes 80% more than me. I am not even remotely considering quitting my job but regardless this was surprisingly mentally hard. I’ve tried to separate it into these feelings:
1. I’ve outearned him in the past six years. It’s simply a change in numbers that benefits us all, but I recognize that DH will want to spend more “fun” money, as I did when I got my promotions and I need to say nothing and maybe even encourage it.
2. DH has struggled through some depression and existential crises over the years and therefore I’m the default person for EVERYTHING (any planning big or small, money management, health insurance, children’s activities). I realized that I was hoping once he’s stable in a job he enjoys, he’d take some of the responsibility. We never actually sat down and talked about this.
3. Well, now that DH has more responsibility and a longer commute, #2 is even further out of reach, so on top of all the planning, I’m also doing more day-to-day physical work. I resent that I didn’t get this break when I got promoted. But I did travel a bit so I’m going to count those weeks he was stuck by himself as a break.
4. Putting all those things together, I realized what I need is more household help regardless where it comes from. So I’ve taken some of this new money and thrown it at my above problems. Thus the raise has resulted in lifestyle creep, and I’m fine with that because it gives me space to keep working on my career while DH enjoys his and everyone is still taken care of.
MNF
If my husband started making a sh*t ton more money than me, I would buy a peloton bike. We can’t afford one now, so I have to go use the one at the gym (which is less good than doing it at my house because kids). Since you have all this money – get a peloton! Exercise gives people endorphins and happy people don’t kill their husbands.
Anon
They just don’t!
Paging makeup recs!
I saw this too late last night to respond, but I have thoughts! First, in terms of drugstore brands, I would stick to elf, wet n wild, and NYX. All three are cruelty free, affordable, and decent quality. Not all of this might be necessary for a tween starter kit but hopefully it gives you some direction.
Start with brushes: I would get an elf blush brush and pencil brush for eyes (it might be called “eye contour brush” or something.) Be sure to get the ones with black handles, they are much better quality than the essentials line. Some people would recommend the C brush for eyes but that will likely be too big for tween eyelids and I find pencil brushes work just well for applying a wash of color as well as detail work.
Next, eyeshadow. Pick up a wet n wild color icon quad in a color scheme that’s flattering to her skin tone (I like silent treatment and walking on eggshells as a medium toned white person.) the comfort zone 10 pan palette is also really well liked. Get an eye primer (elf or wnw both are good) or a concealer as someone else suggested yesterday to go with it. I also really like wet n wild kohl eye liners – the are dirt cheap and look like colored pencils. They have a good shade range and usually good color payoff and last forever. A brown one can be used on both eyes and brows depending on her coloring (personally I use the darkest brown, pretty in mink, on my eyes and taupe of the morning on my brows usually.)
For cheeks: I like elf baked blushes and highlighters and the little square wnw wild ones about equally. I would do a mauvy and/or a peachy blush to start, and a basic glowy highlighter. Feel free to get a duo if you see one, I don’t have specific recs for that though.
I don’t really have strong opinions or a lot of experience with lip products, but I love the elf lip kiss tinted balm personally. I would also recommend any kind of tinted balm lip crayon as I think they are easiest to use. Burts bees lip shimmers are fun as well.
I would also recommend the elf brow gel, wow brow. brows are very in right now so it will help her be on trend. It’s a glossier knock off and it’s awesome. I would for sure skip foundation because (a) it’s hard to match that without her and (b) I think at this age the colorful makeup is the most fun and you don’t want to make her feel like she has to cover up her natural skin texture in order to have fun with makeup. Some good makeup remover wipes are also a great addition to the gift, to help her take care of her skin.
Anonymous
For eyeshadow, Colourpop! Lots of fun colors, very pigmented, reasonably priced, and readily available at Ulta. Put the elf eyeshadow primer under it and it’ll last all day.
Anon
Unless the concealer is a perfect match that will be difficult to shade match too and harder to blend out. I personally won’t typically wear concealer without foundation to blend it into. I would go for a tinted moisturizer/BB Cream/”luminous” or satin finish foundation (they tend to have less coverage than pure matte foundations and blend better). But without foundation I would just skip concealer. I’d also definitely steer toward the brow gels too–pencils are a hard to master (I can’t even make those look natural, brow powders are my go to).
Triangle Pose
Missed answering yesterday for unicorn legal job. Yes, I think I have all 3 – mid level in-house at Fortune 50 company. My salary is 168k, cash bonus was about 40k last year, equity bonus was another 40k. Yes, I acknlowedge that this kind of job is mostly luck and timing. A lot of people have skills and experience, not a lot of people have juice, emotional IQ and networking street smarts.
Julia
Ma’am, this is a Wendy’s.
Anonymous
Excuse you?
Anon
What?
Triangle Pose
Ok?
lydia
this made me laugh out loud!
Anon
Same!
Anon
I LOLed. Sorry people here don’t know their memes, Julia.
Nope.
Nope. Know the meme. She didn’t use it right. Try again.
Anon
Not really the correct use of this meme, but I also wouldn’t expect anybody here to be able to do that, so A for effort, I guess.
Anon
I was with you until the last sentence.
Rent to own
Has anyone ever sold their house in a rent to own agreement? We are having a ridiculous amount of trouble selling our condo (because this is the first time in a decade that our HCOL city decided to become a buyers market). We may have an option to rent out to a buyer who won’t sell their place until February. Any pitfalls I should be aware of? Legal protections I should make sure I have in place? What happens if they decide in February that they no longer want to buy – do I have to evict them basically?
Anonymous
Three months? Don’t bother. They can make an offer and set a closing date further out.
Rent to own
But in this case, they would be moved in and paying me rent while we wait to close. It sounds attractive especially since we probably won’t get any more interest until after the holidays anyway.
Anon
Be very cautious around holdover language in whatever lease you structure. What if their sale falls through, so they don’t end up buying it and they just squat since they’re in the home and they’re now a tenant. A handful of states are VERY tenant friendly, making it a giant PITA if you then had to evict them.
What you’re describing can be done, but it can’t be done without a thoughtful attorney that structures the lease appropriately. The upside to you is great, but you’ve got to plan for the potential downside, which could be that you unintentionally become a long-term landlord.
Anonymous
I don’t think this set up is really what is meant by rent to own. But we did this with our last house. The buyers had already sold their house and were moving out and wanted to move into our house before we closed on it instead of finding temporary housing. So they paid us one month rent. It worked out fine, but I was paranoid the entire time about all the things that could go wrong and am not sure I would do it again. We were in a slow market at a slow time of year and had an offer for the full asking price and did not want to walk away from it so we did it.
Anon
Is it a rent to own or that you want to rent the apartment to a couple that may want to later buy it, a.k.a. two separate transactions?
Rent to own
It sounds like one single contract that would be drawn up (we still need to have the longer conversation with our realtor): We agree on a price now for both the sale and the monthly rent. They move in now, list their house in January, and close with us at the agreed on price once they sell their place. They do have an option to no longer buy and that’s where I’m a bit wary of it.
anon a mouse
The best option for you is to close now. If the issue is their financing, they could get a bridge loan to cover the gap between the two transactions. You could offer financial incentives — you pay condo fees for 3 months, or subsidize part of the bridge loan financing, if you feel like this buyer is worth it.
Another option is to set up both a rental lease for 3 months AND a sales contract with a close-by date. Have them do inspections/condo doc reviews now and require a deposit that is nonrefundable if they don’t close. Given the unusual nature of the transaction you’ll want to have a legal review on the contract. Make clear that the property for sale is subject to the condition its in as of now — that is, if there’s a huge plumbing issue in January, they would be responsible.
Anon
I did that when I bought my house. I moved in about a month before we actually closed and the rent for that month was somehow included in something, I’m really not sure where because there are a thousand different prices for a thousand different things when you buy a house. I mean, if they back out of the contract in February, they back out of the contract. That could happen anyway, but yes, they’d then have to move out.
Anonymous
This is a horrible experience my former neighbor had in 2008. Puts house up for sale, gets offer contingent on sale of condo in another state with a hot housing market. Buyer moved in before closing and agreed to pay rent in the amount of neighbor’s mortgage until closing. Actual market rent would have been about 1.75 higher than what buyer was paying. Seller assumed this was short term and he would rather get some rent rather than nothing.
2008 crash happened, no way buyer could sell condo. Also refused to move out because she couldn’t find house to rent for what she was paying my neighbor (because it was well under market).
My neighbor consulted a lawyer but decided eviction would be too cumbersome. The state we live in isn’t known for being renter friendly, but he was told the process would take at least 6 months and cost him at least about one year of the rental payments he was receiving. That buyer lived in the house for three years!
I would not do this because the risk is too great. If you do move forward, at a minimum consult lawyer, charge at least market rent, and get the buyer to sign a legal agreement.
Anon
Yes, this ^^ This is what I mean by “holdover” in my earlier post. Most people are good and won’t pull this, but if they do, it will be u-g-l-y.
If their current place is already under contract, then some risk is removed (still a far cry from being officially ‘sold’). If they haven’t even listed their house yet, I think you are opening yourself up to significant risk.
Kid/Adult Party Advice
I’m hosting a party for about 45 people or so, with kids invited to the earlier half and adults told that the party starts 2 hours later. Any advice on things I should have ready for the kids when they arrive? Games, toys, foods that kids will like (which will hopefully not stain my white rug…) The kids range in age from 18 months to 9. I have no kids of my own but want to make sure the parents and kids are enjoying themselves. Should I put on a movie? How much will the parents be supervising them? Also, any advice on transitioning from kid to adult time? I was planning on holding back on the foods and breakable holiday servingware until the adult party time starts, but not sure what else to do. open a bottle of champagne? (Kidding!)
Anonymous
Three months? Don’t bother. They can make an offer and set a closing date further out.
Anonymous
Ummm this plan is rude? And weird? You can’t kick the kids out half way through. You should give their parents food and drink just like any other adult guest.
poiu
I don’t understand the situation. It sounds like the adults will drop their kids off 2 hours earlier than the adults will come? Can you explain the plan more?
Anonymous
I don’t think I understand this format . . .are you expecting that the kids (and their parents) will leave after two hours, and a different set of adults will arrive? If so, you’re going to have a fairly large stretch of time in the middle there where you’re taking leave of one set of guests and welcoming another set, so you’ll have a built-in transition as people get coats on, get their kids gathered, get their kids bundled up, say goodbye to everyone — all while your next set of guests is arriving and shedding coats and greeting each other. That, in itself, will be the transition from kid party to adult party.
Though, knowing people, I wouldn’t count that the kid/parent combos will actually leave when you think they will. Or was there some other plan for the kids after two hours (is a sitter coming? Are they being taken care of in some other way?)
I also wouldn’t count on the parents fully supervising their kids. My experience is that parents don’t supervise their kids as thoroughly when a bunch of adults/kids are together; the adults get talking and the kids start doing their own thing.
Anonymous
I am confused about the logistics here. Parents drop their kids off for two hours, take them home to a babysitter, and then come back for the adult part of the party? What I’ve usually seen done is that the kid food is set up in one area of the house supervised by one or more teen babysitters, and the adult refreshments are set up in another area at the same time. There are usually card games, board games, and/or a movie for the kids.
Anonymous
So your friends with kids will be leaving as the childless friends are arriving? That is …. weird and unfriendly. Why not host two separate parties?
Flats Only
There is no way to “transition from kid to adult time”. Unless you have it planned that all the kids (and presumably their parents) will have departed and you will have been able to clean up, I would not invite the “adults” – by which I think you mean people NOT bringing kids – to a party that had been going on for two hours. Your house will be a total wreck and the dirty dishes and picked over food will send a message that the adults are B-List guests. As a child free adult who would undoubtedly enjoy your party, and if kids were around would just ignore them, walking into this situation would be really weird. Just invite everyone for the same time, have a separate room for the kids to be in with a movie on or some simple toys (a few parents will gather there), make sure the kid food is grouped together and obvious, and yes, open the bottle of champagne for your non-kid guests! Roll up the white rug and put it away – it will be destroyed regardless of whether kids or adults are standing on it.
Anonymous
Post isn’t 100% clear but I take it that you’re basically having an open house type party with friends with kids told to come by after 5:30pm and friends without kids told to come by after 7:30pm. I think you’ll have a natural transition as people with younger kids will head home for bedtime. I’d put on a Christmas movie on low in the background and maybe have some Christmas coloring books/sheets and a few boxes of crayons. You can grab those at any CVS. Jenga, deck of cards or similar are also good for the 6-9 ages if you have those already.
FWIW I have three kids and I’m not offended by a party like this. I use real china dishes and stemware for my parties including with small kids because I’d much rather have stuff break while being enjoyed with friends vs getting dusty in the china cabinet. Most china is pretty durable and I don’t have overly expensive stemware anyway.
Mrs. Jones
I don’t understand this at all.
Kid/Adult Party Advice
Hi – OP here. Just to clarify – no one is being kicked out. I have the party time set for a 6 hour block of time and noted that kids are welcome starting at the earlier time. There’s no expectation that the kids will be there without the parents. I’m going to have food and stuff out for the kids too – it’s more that for some of the more adult types of foods, I was planning on holding off on putting those out until the kids leave (unless anyone thinks caviar/smoked salmon are highly-desired kid treats…)
I fully expect that some kids will stay later than others, and of course everyone is welcome to stay as long as they live, but I was more asking about how to transition from kid-based activities to a more adult-oriented party and if this is something common. I have some friends who I know would prefer to come later, after the majority of the kids have left, which is why I also started the party 2.5 hours earlier than I normally do. I hate when my friends tell me they would love to come and bring their kids, but the party starts too late (830), so this was my compromise.
I don’t have any kids and just wanted to make everyone feel welcome, rather than having parents or people without kids feel like they need to choose whether to attend!
Anonymous
Just start the party when it starts!
Anonymous
I think its going to be really hard to please everyone. Put out kid food and adult food in separate areas when the parents start showing up. If I brought my kid at 5:30, I wouldn’t wand to wait 3 hours to eat, and would go for the kid’s food. However, the guests that show up at 8:30 will likely not appreciate the picked over food platters and dirty dishes laying about. Divide the adult food into two settings, and replace halfway through the party. Go around and do a quick pick up of plates/load dishwasher around 8.
Do you have a separate area to put on a Christmas movie and let the kids play in? At 5-9 they don’t need to be constantly supervised, but when in groups kids tend to devolve into running, shrieking, and possibly pillow-fighting monsters, which is a lot more fun than watching a movie. Parents will wander back and check on them from time to time.
Anon
This is really weird. I get your intent in trying to be accommodating, but it’s weird.
rosie
I still think it’s weird not to host the parents as adults. If I liked caviar pre-kid, presumably I would still like it once I had kids. So yes, put out the adult food — adults will be there with their kids from the beginning. I would think of it more as an open house where you replenish the food as needed, and it’s likely that kids will be there on the earlier end.
anon
I’d probably call it a house party, tell everyone the same start time and end times, and say that children are welcome on the invitation. Parents with kids will naturally come earlier, and people who prefer to avoid children will naturally come later. You may also get childless adults who have more than one event stopping by early, or parents who have a babysitter for another reason stopping by late.
Don’t hold back on the caviar/smoked salmon or champagne. Parents like that stuff too. Set up a couple of trays of food so you can bring fresh ones out as the party goes on. Place the kid-friendly food together and in an obvious place (although my friend laughs at how the chicken fingers and mini corn dogs, which were meant for kids, were the most popular items at her engagement party).
Cat
I would tell EVERYONE you invited “this party will be open house style from 5-10, so please drop in for however long you want to stay! We’ll have kid-friendly movies, games, and snacks (though no babysitters) in the [X room] for those that want to bring their children.”
And then have the “adult” items somewhere not near the kid-focused area — like have your wine glasses and apps on the kitchen counters for the adults, but on the coffee table near the TV for the kids?
Anonymous
I would hire a babysitter. At large gatherings without a babysitter, the parents tend to ignore their kids and then the older kids/teens get stuck chasing them around. At least that’s what always happens to my teen.
Mrs. Jones
This definitely.
anon
I still don’t get this. If it’s an open house-type thing, my guess is that the crowd with kids will naturally come earlier than others … but I think it’s super weird to essentially have separate start times. Not sure who should feel more offended by this: the friends with kids, or the child-free bunch.
Anonymous
How are you going to get the the first wave to leave?
anon
I also don’t understand the logistics. Putting that aside, it would be nice to set up a few activities for kids of different ages. I would put a movie on with the volume low. I would buy some Color Wonder markers and coloring books (the kind that don’t leave marks on anything but paper). I’d ask some of the parents you’re closest to if they wouldn’t mind bringing some toys to share. If this is party is holiday-related, you could set up a cookie decorating station for the kids.
I’d expect the parents of toddlers to watch their kids pretty closely. I would because your house isn’t baby-proofed (and I wouldn’t expect it to be), and I wouldn’t want my kid to get hurt or mess anything up. The parents of anyone 3 and up probably will keep an eye and ear out but not watch closely.
Goldfish crackers, any crackers, pretzels, cut fruit, mild cheese, and cookies are all safe bets for foods kids will like that aren’t too messy.
Is your white rug an area rug or wall-to-wall carpet? If it’s an area rug, could you roll it up and throw it in a closet for a party? Even with no kids, 45 people going in and out of your house won’t be kind to a white rug, especially if the weather is bad.
Anon
I’ll be the voice of dissent and say this sounds fine. I’d let childless friends know they are welcome to come at any time (sounds like you already did – party 4-10pm at my house, we’ll have kid games 4-6:30), but otherwise I see nothing wrong with this. Definitely have some fresh food and liquor for the later crowd. And yes, your house will be a mess, like after any good party.
SFAttorney
I agree. My parents used to go to open houses that had different start times and extended over four or five hours or more. Maybe it was more common decades ago.
Anon
Me: Mom of 2 kids (4yo and 7yo). This is the wording used by my manager for his personal, 4pm-10pm holiday party at his house. See last paragraph for “kid instructions”.
***
Please join us for our annual tree trimming party and share some good old Christmas cheer. We’ll laugh and eat and decorate as we go. Our tradition is fairly simple – we drag out all of our Christmas decorations and all of our friends decorate our home as they see fit – everyone is obligated to hang at least one ornament – and we have a reminder of all the people we love all through the Christmas season! We have a lot of decorations to choose from…
If you want, you may bring something yummy to share with everyone. But most of all, please bring yourself. (No gifts, please.)
Please bring a friend if we forgot to invite them. Kids are welcome in the early hours. (They usually find themselves in the book-living-room watching movies.) This year we’re thinking of singing some Christmas carols around 6.30 (bring instruments – we’ll provide tabulature/lyric sheets) Our boys will head to bed around 8 pm and it would be a good idea for the younger set to be leaving around then. we’ll set up the Christmas Punch around 8.30 and switch to some quieter music for the remainder of the evening.
Anon
And I still find this so, so strange.
Anonymous
Agree. This is one thousand percent more weird and awkward than anything OP suggested.
Anonymous
This is the most high-maintenance invitation I’ve ever seen. I would not want to go to that party.
Horse Crazy
I’m going out on medical leave for a major foot surgery next Thursday. I’ll be out at least until January 9, but I might extend it. Should I put in my out of office reply that I’m out on medical leave, or just say that I’m out of the office?
Anon
I would say medical leave because then people are less likely to bother you.
Anonymous
I think you can say that you are out of the offfice “on leave” if you prefer to leave the medical part out. I read “on leave” to mean an extended leave rather than just a vacation, and that I should try someone else.
Anon
I think it depends on your industry! In every office I’ve worked in, leave means vacation
Houda
I think it depends on whether there is a high likelihood of people contacting you. I am now recovering from foot surgery. I didn’t put an out of office because I let my small office know that I was away and I also told the client management team (sadly even stopped by for a meeting shortly after surgery). No one has bothered me since.
If you have a bigger office or multiple clients, you might want to have an explicit ooo message.
Anonymous
When on a medical leave, I wrote “I am out of the office on leave. If you need assistance….” I wanted people to understand it wasn’t a regular vacation and I would not be back for a while, but I didn’t know my return date. If I had known my return date, I would have written “I am out of the office, returning [date]. If you need assistance….”
Original Moonstone
I know there are a lot of Ask A Manager fans here, but for those who do not check that site:
https://www.askamanager.org/2019/12/the-best-office-holiday-party-date-story-of-all-time.html
Senior Attorney
This had me howling at my desk yesterday!
MKB
ditto
anon a mouse
I totally cry-laughed on the subway yesterday at that one.
Cookbooks
This is amazing! I’m dying of laughter!
Anon
This is very well written. I hope she writes other things.
Anon
We want to get our landlords a small Christmas present as a token of our appreciation for them. They have been so incredibly generous to us since we moved in here at the beginning of the year, and we really couldn’t be luckier. What should we get them? The husband is a professor at Stanford, and the wife does not work. They love gardening (real gardening lol – they have a huge garden on the property we rent, and they come here on weekends and tend to it), and I know that they have at least one young granddaughter. They are baseball/basketball fans of our local teams. Normally I would bake cookies, but that’s not an option this year – it needs to be something I can buy in a store or online.
Anon
Buy cookies.
Anon
Some kind of beautiful flower arrangement seems appropriate.
anne-on
Have you heard or Terrain? It’s a fancy garden center/store and absolutely gorgeous – I would definitely give a gift card or a small token from there.
Bluberries
Bread delivery from Little Sky would be a wonderful present! You can order online, free delivery to Palo Alto and Menlo Park, I believe.
Anon
Help! My direct report is driving me crazy. She is extremely needy. As soon as I walk in, she’s at my desk with a million questions (even though she emailed them all to me an hour ago). She always claims to need a full hour for meetings I think we can finish in 15 minutes. She seems constantly consumed with anxiety about her tasks and is not proactive about just making decisions on her own until I am next available.
I have other direct reports and none of them do this. How do I handle her? When I try to suggest weekly 1-on-1s she says it’s not enough time and she needs me NOW. When I say we should take 30 min instead of one hour for a meeting she gets huffy: that’s not enough time. She does not understand that if I tended to her every need, I would not be able to get my own job done.
Managing is so draining! Ugh. Any tips?
Anon
You obviously need to have a direct conversation with her. “Betty, I am not able to respond to questions right away and I need you to take the initiative to solve problems before coming to me. Part of your job is being able to figure things out on your own with minimal guidance from me. Before we have another meeting, I need to see the steps you’ve taken to address ____.”
Anonymous
Agree with this. You may need to have the direct conversation where you tell her that her job is to have thought through all the problems and options and then present them to you to decide how to proceed further. It is only after she’s gotten stuck should she come to you. Her job is to reduce your decision making labor. And she may need to give you an agenda for meetings. If she gets huffy, you need to shut that down.
Anon
This. I had a direct report like this who moved out recently. I have SO many hours more in my week now. But I did get somewhere using the above techniques. I literally had to say “propose at least two possible solutions before asking me the question”, “I am not available outside of our scheduled meetings”, and “meetings with me need to be proposed at least one day ahead” (we already had a weekly recurring).
anon
Be a mentor. Share with her ways in which she can improve to make both of your lives better.
Sarabeth
I’m an academic, and this sounds like so many of my undergraduate students. Sometimes I break it down for them in chunks of time – like, I teach two classes, do research, and sit on service committees, so teaching is no more than half of my total time. I currently have 40 undergraduate students, if I am meeting with all of my students regularly, I have 30 minutes every other week for each student at the absolute MAX.
Also, it can help to lay out specific rules. Not just “I need you to take initiative” but “I can meet with you for 15 minutes twice a week. All other questions will need to be done by email. If I think they require an in-person conversation, I will let you know.”
Anonymous
Rant ahead — Looking for advice about trying to not be extremely frustrated and yell when working with a particular person. Here is my situation – I work in BigLaw, and we have various support services as part of the firm, including a word process/document services/printing services (for large print jobs) group. I am in a smaller office of this biglaw firm, and we have a few of the word processing people here in our office. Two of them are great, one of them is someone who I cringe when I see her coming or have to work with her. Since the firm is pushing to be more of “one firm” thing, and not separate offices, we are asked to send all of our word processing requests to the large, all US distribution list (which works for me). However, all of my requests get routed to the people in my specific office. The two good people have been out a lot recently due to family illnesses and surgery, so I get stuck with the one person I don’t like working with.
I don’t like working with her because she is exhausting to deal with. I send what I believe to be clear emails with straightforward instructions – E.g., “please print all of the documents that are hyperlikned in the attached document, double sided, three hold punched. The please place all of the printed documents in a three ring binder, separated by tabs, in the same order as in the hyperlinked document.” or “please change the entity name the attached signature pages from X, LLC to Y, LLC”. However, I end up having to answer so many follow up questions with each request that I just end up doing it myself. She starts asking about items that aren’t in my request, or wants to just talk about how busy she is so am I sure that I really need this done, or ask about which method I prefer that she uses to make the changes. It’s draining and completely defeats the point of sending anything to word processing, because I now feel like I need to anticipate what her 398493894 questions are going to be in my initial email, when I really just need someone to change entity names in a word document from X to Y or print stuff and put it in a specific order and that’s it. I don’t care about how it happens, and I don’t want her asking questions about the rest of the document other than what I’ve asked her to focus on.
However, I get so frustrated and snippy each time that I see she’s calling me or emails me with one of these questions. Last night, after sending a request, I got two calls from her (I was not at my desk) in 30 minutes from her. I have asked to have all of my requests not go to her, but that has not been allowed, and I have asked how my instructions can be clearer but also not take me 20 minutes to draft when I send something to document services, but was told my instructions have been fine. I only need word processing assistance maybe once or twice a month. What else can I do? Anything?
Flats Only
In my job I get these types of requests, and your instructions above are clear and I would have no trouble following them. I would not have followup questions. If I saw something weird that didn’t impact what you’d asked for, I might mention it when I sent the job back to you, but not before. Not sure what advice to give you, and please don’t yell at her, but yes, you are right, she is nuts.
Smol Law
sorry I got nothing to offer but to comment that this is FASCINATING to me as a small firm lawyer.
you have whole departments just to print stuff?! human bodies who literally work the ctl+F and replace function!? holy moly. your post sounds draining to me just reading it and I can totally understand your frustration.
LittleBigLaw
I would use my secretary as the liaison for these requests. Type it up just as you said above and send to your secretary with a request to coordinate with word processing to get it done. Any questions or follow up go to your secretary, not you.
Senior Attorney
This is a great idea.
Also, if you are really yelling at a subordinate, you need to stop it immediately. That is not okay. At all.
Cat
I didn’t see any evidence of that in the OP’s post? She feels frustrated when she sees an email or incoming call =/= yelling?
Senior Attorney
Other than this: “Looking for advice about trying to not be extremely frustrated and yell when working with a particular person.”
Anon
When she starts asking about what methods you prefer tell her “I really just need someone to change entity names in a word document from X to Y or print stuff and put it in a specific order and that’s it. I don’t care about how it happens”
Anonymous
Thanks all! To clarify, the yelling is me yelling out loud to myself (not at her) when I get an email or see her name come up on the caller ID on my phone. I do *not* yell at her. It’s a yell of frustration because I know what’s coming. And when I do respond with, “I really just need you to print the documents and put them in that order.” or “I really just need the entity names changed, you can ignore the rest of the stuff in that document” I get a lot of guilt about not wording my answer nicely enough.
And the suggestion to direct all questions to my assistant is a great one – I had not thought of that, but it might work. However, I’ll feel a little bad about that, as my assistant (and the partners I work for) all try to avoid her for similar reasons. She’s had many discussions with her supervisors about how she needs to just do what is asked and “stop with the noise and the questions unless necessary” but she deems all of the questions necessary.
Anonymous
Look . . .if she’s a known problem, and everyone avoids working with her, and she’s had many talks with her supervisors, then you need to develop a thicker skin to the “guilt” part of all this and lighten up about it all in general. Stop being surprised that she reacts this way, and stop taking her so seriously. Stop handing her control of your day and your mood. Just be your normal kind, direct self, giving assignments like you usually do, and answering questions like you usually would; with clarity and direct answers, respect for the person you’re working with, and kindness. That won’t satisfy her. So what? Shrug off her reactions and go on about your day, since you and everyone in the company (it sounds like) knows that she’s not a reasonable person. Don’t put an unreasonable person (her) in charge of your emotions or your reactions. She doesn’t have the power to change your working style. She can’t MAKE you feel guilty. She can react to you, get huffy, get offended, but there is no law saying that you are therefore required to feel guilty or bad or angry. You could just as easily feel amused, unaffected, pitying, merciful, determined . . . you name it.
Anon
So we added 266k new jobs last month with revisions upwards to the prior 2 mos jobs numbers with an unemployment rate at 3.5%. Remind me again why I’m supposed to hate Trump and the GOP?
Anon
Can you not? Obama’s the one who deserves the thanks. It’s amazing Trump’s volatility and sub-human IQ haven’t destroyed everything Obama built.
Anon
Obama does not deserve credit for this. Get over your biases and raging ignorance.
Anon
+1. If this economy holds up — or even slows slightly — no way I’m voting for a socialist in a year.
Anon
Right but you all predicted and hoped it would all fall apart and then you could blame Trump and guess what the expansion has lasted beyond the time that it should given economic cycles. WSJ had an article about how furniture factories in America are desperate for workers and courting community college students with 45-70k offers in small towns where that is real money. How bad are things really?
Anon
There’s a whole year to go, which is a relatively long time as far as the economy goes. And things are not great everywhere. People without college degrees in the Midwest (ie. Trump’s base) aren’t doing very well and I assure you, they don’t care one bit that your 401(k) is doing OMGSOAMAZING. In fact, it’s the opposite – the factory workers and farmers get really mad when they think the Wall Street billionaires are fat and happy.
Anonymous
No. No one cares about you or wants to talk to you.
Anon
Just stop with this. Really. Is there no way for you to get attention in your personal life? Are you really so emotionally needy you need to come here and do this? Gross. Grow up.
Anon
You do realize more than one person here feels this way right? This thread already has more than one person in agreement so don’t assume it’s one constant troll.
Anon
The OP has posted about it a bunch. Her syntax is distinctive.
anon
Because not everything is about money?
Because the numbers would be even stronger if we weren’t in a ridiculous half-@ssed trade war?
Because he’s a foreign asset who is compromising democracy?
Anon
Lol how young are you? Everything in life is about money. If times are good, they’re good and I’m not sure I care about the constitution or who is stuck at the border or what able bodied adult is being required to get a job in a 3.5% unemployment economy rather than be on food stamps. And the trade war – like it or not – has forced some manufacturing back to the US. This was the time to do it — when times are good, the negative effects aren’t felt as much. I mean we’re in a record breaking consumer spending season even though people are paying a few dollars more for things from China.
Anon
You’re gross. What exactly do you want from us? Go enjoy your money.
Anon
Only terrible people think everything in life is about money. Not the person you’re responding to, but my husband and I are late 30s and my parents/in-laws are in their 70s and none of us think money is the only thing that matters in life, or even the most important thing. I enjoy having financial security, but I would give up literally all my savings if it would guarantee Trump got out of office. My husband and I both have good jobs, and we’re young enough that we could start from square one with savings and be ok.
Anonymous
So you’d give up ALL your savings to get him out? Everything? Home equity? 401k? You’d be ok living like a 22 year old eating ramen? Have to ask – WHY? What has Trump done that has been sooo bad for you? I mean I’m guessing like much of this board you’re white, UMC, living in a nice area — has your life changed that much since 2016?
Anon
I live in fear every day that one of my children will get shot in school. Our planet is burning, my children or grandchildren may die of the effects of climate change and all the beautiful nature and wildlife I love so much is being destroyed. Our leader is a madmen who taunts dictators with nuclear weapons on Twitter and one of them may decide to launch one at us. I believe that (crazy as it sounds) Trump is holding himself in check somewhat to win another election, and I fear that his re-election in 2020 would literally spell the end of American democracy and the abandonment of constitutional norms like a free press and free speech. My white, upper-middle class privilege does not make me immune from any of that. Also POC are not the only people marginalized by Trump and his ilk. I’m Jewish and hate crimes (including murder) against Jews have increased markedly since Trump took office – this is documented by studies, this isn’t my opinion. I also, you know, care about people who are not me.
anon
“Everything in life is about money FOR ME.”
Fixed it for you.
anon
LOL the money won’t matter when our children are dead from the effects of long-ignored climate change, but I hope they bury you and yours with all your gold bars.
Anonymous
Ok boomer.
Anon
“I’m not sure I care about the constitution”
I’m sure I do. I guess we disagree there.
nona
If you don’t care about the rule of law/constitution when times are good, it won’t be there for you to care about when times are bad.
Anonymous
Ok, boomer.
Anon
You never use that right.
Anon
How many of those 266k jobs were full-time? Just because an employer takes 1 full-time job, and makes it 2 part-time jobs instead so they don’t have to offer benefits doesn’t equate to actual economic growth.
Anon
You’re reaching. The report is out. You can read it but I suspect you won’t just because you don’t want to believe it’s good. The report states that the number of people employed part time remained unchanged in Nov — meaning the 266k jobs added were FULL TIME. What’s your next theory?
Celia
41,000 of those jobs were the GM workers returning after their strike. Not “new” jobs.
Anonymous
+1.
Anon
The people that delivered Trump’s victory in 2016 and that he needs to win again in 2020 aren’t wealthy Wall Street types. They’re lower class and middle class white people in Pennsylvania/Ohio/Michigan/Wisconsin. Do you live in the Rust Belt? Because I do, and things are not great economically here, especially for people without college degrees. The Trump voters here mostly don’t have any money invested in the stock market and they couldn’t care less about your 401(k) package. Fwiw, the Rust Belt was on the leading edge of the 2008 recession and a lot of people believe it will be on the leading edge of the next one, so the fact that things are not great here could be an indication that there will be national problems in a year or two.
Ribena
Humanity, dear.
Anon
I’d say wanting people to have jobs so they can have food and shelter IS humanity. No?
Anon
Go away.
Carrie
Well, most of these jobs are still poorly paid, despite the WSJ article, with declining benefits. I’m sure you are aware of the slow rate of increases in the minimum wage and average income for low/moderate income workers – which most of us are.
More workers than ever are working multiple jobs, with increasing health insurance costs, less job security, more hours, worse retirement packages. Fewer people can afford to buy houses as housing costs are rising much more quickly than wages, nevermind the sad state of many public schools, the skyrocketing and unaffordable costs of a college education, and the rapid increase in the cost of healthcare (even for those of us lucky enough to have coverage through our jobs). So you are reassured because people are still buying crappy Christmas presents for their kids from China… really?
It is annoying that we talk about these job numbers without reminding ourselves of the context.
And of course, we are now an international laughing stock.
January
Have you looked at his twitter feed lately? Or ever?
Anon
Late to this but FWIW, you have to remember the deregulation that’s taking place as well. It may be great in the short term but I would be prepared for the long term impacts. Also, as someone stated above, it hasn’t been equally distributed across industries. China is hoping to wait out the elections to see if Trump gets voted out and then will pick up trade negotiations (with, they hope, someone new) so the tariffs and uncertainty are hitting some people in this country (and around the world, but that’s a different story in global supply chains) very hard. You may have seen Trump start up with Brazil and Argentina this week as well as he seeks to divert attention away from stalling US/China trade negotiations because the administration is getting increased hostility from US farmers who are hurting right now and they needed to be seen as ‘fighting for them’. A big unspoken rule in the past was that presidents wouldn’t outwardly claim credit for the economy because that ‘credit’ goes their way when it tanks as well so it will be interesting to see what happens if/when the economic hardships begin to extend beyond the current areas. The administration has been running out of their go to negotiation tactics as other governments are onto their MO now. One way to see when their back is against the wall is the when Trump/the administrations says they really don’t need something to happen (e.g., US/China deal comments Trump made this week) because that is typically when negotiations aren’t going their way and they really do need it. Been steeped in this stuff at work all week and it’s depressing.
Anon
Easy question esp for Philadelphians — if I pick up 3-4 pretzels when I’m in your city this weekend, will they keep so I can eat them thru say Wed of the next week? Or are they going to be hard/inedible if they aren’t fresh? They’d be from Wawa if that matters.
Anon
Hard, inedible…they don’t last and the salt makes them sweat
Cookbooks
I agree with Anon at 11:57. They’ll start to become soggy and then harden. Wednesday might a day too long to wait.
Anon
BUT… they make the best stuffing. I’d buy them just to chop them up for that.
Cat
You could try freezing them, but they will definitely not be good left out for that many days.
Anon
Do you continue sending holiday cards to people who don’t send them to you? Would your answer change if you knew the people send out cards but you don’t get one? If it matters, our holiday card is very generic (just one photo of our family and a non-denominational holiday greeting) and I don’t think it would be perceived as smug or offensive.
anon
I’ve stopped sending cards to families who we’ve just lost contact with. If we don’t even follow each other on social media or run into each other at the grocery store or keep up through our parents, it seems awkward to send them a picture of my family once a year.
anon
Sometimes? Totally depends on the relationship and a number of factors — but my thought is that continuing to send a card keeps the possibility of reconnection open. I guess I wouldn’t factor in whether you receive a card from the other family.
Senior Attorney
I send cards to people with whom I want to touch base in a friendly way during the holiday season. It’s never been a tit-for-tat (or quid pro quo, heh) — I send out at least twice as many as I receive. Every year I add some and prune some.
Anonymous
My decision rule is, would this person enjoy receiving this card or would they just not care?
Anon
Same here.
Anne
Same except probably receive 1/6 of what we send out. I just think of it as I want to say hi to you, you have no need to do anything back (though I love to receive the cards from those who do).
AnonInfinity
Same here! I love sending cards and writing notes on all of them. A lot of people just text me back (even those who I don’t communicate with often!), and a significant number of people don’t send them at all. My test for whether to take someone of the list is whether we’re still friends at all. Like, if I don’t have your number to text you and confirm your address, I probably won’t send a card, but that doesn’t eliminate many people.
Anonymous
I’d probably give it two-three years without response before I’d stop. I usually do a photo Christmas card every year but work was crazy last year and I just didn’t make it happen. I’d be sad if no one sent me any this year as a result. But a few years of no cards and no contact otherwise? I’d probably take them off the list.
Anon (OP)
Oh I definitely wouldn’t take someone off the list because they missed one year. These are people I’ve never received cards from. I didn’t start sending cards until my 30s and didn’t receive many before I started sending them out, and even now that I send them it feels like in a lot of cases it’s just going into a void and I have no idea if the people enjoy the card or think it’s weird that they get one from me when they’ve never sent me one. These are all long-distance friends and I keep in touch with them on social media but not otherwise. I have no hesitation sending my close friends a card even when they don’t do their own cards, because I know they enjoy seeing mine.
AnonInfinity
I will take someone off my list after a few years if we don’t contact each other ever on social media, via text, in person, or whatever. If I feel like I’m just sending it off into a void, I figure we’re not really friends, and it’s ok to step back.
Anon
If they’re family I continue. If they’re friends I continue. I don’t care whether they send me a card.
Anon
I just really enjoy pretty stationery and sending cards, so yes I send them even if I don’t get one back.