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Anonymous
Can someone explain to me the suggestions that we should delete period tracking apps? I don’t understand the threat. Feels like most of the enforcement efforts will be directed at providers since periods are irregular in puberty/perimenopause, and half of all “abortions” are wanted pregnancies like D&Cs for miscarriage, ectopic pregnancies, etc.
anonshmanon
I think the fear here is that some deranged stalker could easily get their hands on your data including geolocation showing when you visited planned Parenthood. From a technical perspective, this isn’t that unlikely, unless tracker companies really beef up their security, and potentially offer users to pay so the app foregoes the revenue source of selling the data. Texas’s new abortion ban includes the option for vigilantes to sue providers and patients with potentially winning damages in court. I don’t know how likely they are to succeed, but I’d hate for even one woman to have to deal with a lawsuit like that, win or lose.
NYNY
Yes, my understanding is that this advice is specific to Texas because enforcement of the ban is left to private citizens who can sue people for getting or abetting abortions. An abusive partner could use period tracking data to substantiate a pregnancy. Or law enforcement could stop a woman in a car at the state border and access her app, then hold her on suspicion of trying to leave the state to seek an abortion. It sounds extreme, but the law is extreme, and the extremists are feeling empowered.
Anonymous
More broadly, are the TX cops going to start stopping all women leaving the state and ask them if they are or may be pregnant? What will happen if a woman refuses to answer the question?
Anon
Probably not, but who cares? It’s a sad state of affairs when we are focused on whether a law is likely to be enforced rather than the fact that in the year 2022, this is a thing that men wrote down and voted on and passed.
Anon
I think you’re going to offend a ton of people if you conflate their D&Cs to after missed miscarriages to having had an abortion.
Anonymous
I think you missed her point. She is not conflating miscarriage care with abortion; she is pointing out that the right is doing so. They are trying to ban care for ectopic pregnancies and miscarriages along with the termination of potentially viable pregnancies.
Anon
I don’t think so? Many anti-choice activists want to straight up ban D and Cs and the women I know who’ve suffered miscarriages are outraged by that. Miscarrying “naturally” can be a really horrible drawn out process, so having access to surgical termination procedures is really important.
Anonymous
This.
Anonymous
It’s not just unpleasant, it can be deadly.
Anon
That’s a feature not a bug for the people trying to ban them.
anon
This is me. Not a D&C or ectopic, but nonviable 8-week fetus that risked my life. I had to terminate. In the heat of the moment in the OB emergency room it was just a ‘procedure’ and I knew darn well I was terminating a non-viable pregnancy, but I never equated what it was to abortion. Looking back, that’s exactly what it was. It was a horrible procedure and very traumatic, but it was my only choice because ‘waiting for nature’ put my health at significant risk.
I am not offended by conflating D&C/termination in those circumstances with abortion. I think that’s the whole damn point, or one of the big ones anyway. It’s not just about protecting the unborn or for teenagers to use who “make bad choices.” It’s a medical tool so women can have autonomy to make medical decisions that impact and save their lives.
Anon
I’ve had two of these for incomplete miscarriages of wanted pregnancies, they were called D&Cs but my miscarriages were called spontaneous abortions and I was not offended. I have lost three wanted pregnancies and one live child and I am pro choice. My losses do not mean anyone else should be forced to have a child or not receive medical care they need.
Don’t assume you speak for others.
Anonymous
I thought I read somewhere that medical coding calls a D&C an “abortion”? Like someone had a D&C after a miscarriage and was surprised to get a medical bill for an abortion, called the hospital/insurance, which both confirmed that’s just what it’s coded as. Is that an urban legend?
Anonymous
A miscarriage is called an abortion.
anonshmanon
In the sense that the body can ‘abort’ the pregnancy. Semantically, the word abortion doesn’t carry who makes the decision to abort.
Anon
I think it’s taking it a bit far. Look, I’d be aware these apps (like most) sell your data to marketers, but taking that to mean they’re going to use it to help the government track down people who had abortions is just fear mongering.
anonshmanon
The govt is already using app location data today. Technology companies readily do business with them. Homeland security and Customs and Border Protection claim they don’t look at citizens, CDC used location to track the impact of curfews. This is by no means a dystopian fantasy.
Anon
Evidence. If you or your provider are being prosecuted for having/providing an abortion, it would be easy for the government to subpoena the third-party app for your data, which would provide them with evidence against you – or your provider. Just like they can do with your other phone records.
Anon
Exactly. And it’s damn good advice to delete those things.
political data scientist
+1
It’s not a crazy conspiracy, its quite reasonable. You have to be careful about what types of info you’re giving what types of apps.
Anon
Also, I’ll amend my own comment to say not just prosecution but also investigation. When you disclose information to a third party, you have no reasonable expectation of privacy so the government can access that information without a warrant, which could provide the basis for further investigation. An investigation even without prosecution could be a nightmare.
Anon
You would absolutely need a warrant to get app data from the app provider or from the phone itself — you can get the fact of a communication without a warrant (phone records) but not any content (i.e. text of emails or text messages). That said, if there’s a law on the book criminalizing abortion, it would not be difficult to get probable cause for a warrant if, for example, a credible witness told you someone had an abortion. On the other hand, you could not get a (valid) search warrant as a fishing expedition for the phone of a random woman of reproductive age, nor conduct a (valid) search absent a warrant and probable cause.
That said, given the erosion of the rule of law in some parts of this country, including on the part of judges who should be approving these warrants and overseeing prosecutions, I would not feel comfortable in Texas or a similar state as a woman of reproductive age.
Source: Am a prosecutor.
anonshmanon
Do you need a warrant to just buy data that the app maker sells? They might not care that much whether they sell period tracking apps to e.g. Target to advertise to pregnant women vs. a government entity. Even if they do care, datasets could be bought and then traded on.
Anonymous
So in addition to period tracking data, would you also need to have evidence that the woman had $ex to show that she had been pregnant?
Anon
Thanks – good to know. I stand corrected. I assumed that the data would be more like phone records than content but I’m glad to hear that’s not the case! (Not a prosecutor here, obviously!)
Anon @ 11:04
To anonshmanon — no — the warrant requirement comes from the 4th Amendment, which only protects individuals from intrusion by the government. What a private company does with your data is governed by the user contract, which no one ever reads, and private companies generally write these contracts in a way that lets them do whatever they want with the data.
To Anonymous @ 11:16 — not necessarily, because a fertile window + sex does not necessarily mean pregnancy, so those two things alone would not be enough to prove that there was a pregnancy.
It could be corroborative evidence or used as part of a circumstantial case, though. The classic analogy on circumstantial evidence is –you go into a store and when you come out, you see that the ground is wet, some people are holding wet umbrellas, and others appear to have wet clothes. Even though it is not raining at that moment, you can conclude from the circumstantial evidence that it had rained while you were in the store. Similarly, evidence of a fertile window and intercourse during that time, without anything else, would not be enough to prove that a pregnancy resulted, but could be used as part of a circumstantial case.
Anon
This is not far fetched. Remember the story in 2019 – “Missouri health director kept spreadsheet of Planned Parenthood patients’ periods“. According to him, the spreadsheet helped to identify patients who had undergone failed abortions. State inspectors used their access to medical records to get this information.
Anonymous
Not far fetched. To prosecute there needs to be proof you were pregnant. I also would not purchase my pregnancy tests at the local pharmacy. Then take the tests in private and dispose of them in a safe place.
Anonymous
Crazed paranoia esp among the people here who have the money that they’ll fly themselves to NYC or LA and get what they need and you’re delusional if you think TSA will be checking your period apps before letting you thru security.
Anon
Have you read the responses above? The ones that focus on abusive partners or law enforcement using the apps to prove or substantiate a case? Do you live in a state where it is or soon will be illegal to have an abortion or travel to another state to have an abortion?
I don’t see anyone arguing that the federal government is going to prevent women from moving around the country for any reason. But anyway, great strawman you’ve constructed and knocked down.
Anonymous
Are you one of the people who insisted here in early March 2020 that COVID would never be an issue and accused people of being paranoid for worrying about it?
Anonymous
No but is pregnancy infectious like Covid? I locked it down by late Feb 2020, refusing to go to a conference in Vegas because Covid was already in the US and this board mocked hard. Yet I’m still not thinking you catch a pregnancy by anything other than your choice to garden.
Anonymous
Hmm. So you are saying I am paranoid for worrying that my state legislature wants me to die from complications of an intentional pregnancy that turns out not to be viable, and for worrying that the state will erect obstacles to my access to proper care in another state? I don’t think that’s terribly paranoid.
Anon
Huh? Are you the commenter below who has the time machine? What does the infectious nature of COVID have to do with a period app?
Anonymous
Are you unacquainted with the concept of rape, and do you not recall when contraception required your husband’s consent? Read some history, girl.
Anon
Help me come up with proper inclusive language. I need a phrase to emphasize I am talking about issues pertinent to women (and I want to keep the word “women”), but also acknowledge it applies to other people who menstruate or could become pregnant. Issues for women and others AFAB? I do not wish to use “menstruators.”
Anon
People who may become pregnant?
Cb
I like that.
Anonymous
This is what I would use
Anonymous
This excludes a lot of women.
Anon
Yeah this. Look, you’re going to offend people whether you use women or “people who might become pregnant”. I’d use women – not perfect, but generally understood to mean “people who might become pregnant” even if it’s not as inclusive as ideal.
Anonymous
She said she was using women! How does women and people who may become pregnant exclude women?
Anonymous
Not if you use as “women and other people who may become pregnant,” since they said they wanted to keep the use of the word women as well.
Anon
To me, it’s highly dependent on context. If you’re talking about an issue that is specific to pregnancy, like how to access emergency contraception, it makes sense to say “people who may become pregnant” even if it excludes some women. I don’t see it as a tr-ns specific issue, it’s just being precise in your language. Post-menopausal women and gay women can’t get pregnant and don’t need emergency contraception, many preteen and teen girls who aren’t yet women can and do.
If it’s about something broader, like the impact that Roe has had on women, I agree you should say women. You can add “and other people who may become pregnant” for greater exclusivity but women should not be erased from that kind of discussion.
Anon
*inclusivity
Anon
This is a good way to put it.
Anonymous
Since you specifically mentioned being precise: gay women can of course get pregnant – just usually not from gay sex…
Other than that, +1
Cornellian
Id use this. I assume the language is also meant to cover menstruating 12 year olds, for example, who are children but at pregnancy risk.
Anon
Maybe preface by saying that “women” means women as generally understood and anyone who was born with and still has female reproductive parts? And then get on with the talk? Or use a footnote?
Anonymous
Yes, just mention it once or use a footnote and then use the word “women” throughout the rest of the presentation or document. Other language obscures the fact that the issue is primarily about women.
Anonymous
Say “women.” Because the right’s goal here is specifically to erase women. They go after other genders in other ways.
Anonymous
horseshoe theory. the left’s goal is to erase women (and most of the rest of you are cheering that on).
Anon
Female.
NYNY
The only advantage of using “female” is that it offends everyone. The first option – women and other people who may become pregnant – is the right take.
Cat
lollll I agree. Saying “female” sounds like you’re a lying 16yo on r-ddit talking about how your wealth impresses the females.
I think the first option is good, too.
Anon
Yeah female should only be used as an adjective eg female lawyer. “Females” as a noun is never a good idea.
Anon
Use women and people who may become pregnant.
Mouse
This is what I was going to suggest – covers all bases and doesn’t sound weird.
Anonymous
Is it a uterine-specific issue? Depending on how you are writing this, “people with uteruses”? Though does not include people that were born with other sex organs but identify as women so if they fall into your target group that may not work.
Anonymous
This is hugely offensive. It reduces women to their reproductive organs.
Anon
Also lots of people with uteruses can’t get pregnant, so if the issue is anything related to pregnancy it’s not very accurate.
Anonymous
If the issue of the communication is related to literal uteruses, then i disagree which is why I said it.
If it’s a call to action re: abortion rights, well, yes, of course not.
Anon
People with a uterus might not be able to become pregnant but I don’t know how someone without a uterus could possibly become pregnant so I think this comment makes sense.
Anonymous
If you are talking about the leaked SCOTUS opinion draft, then say “women.” It’s targeted at women. All women, not just those who may become pregnant. Using “inclusive” language to highlight that there may be a handful of others who are also affected because of biology improperly shifts the focus away from the fact that these men and Barrett are trying to erase the personhood of all women.
Anon
Thank you all. This is actually in a medical context and involves menstruation and pregnancy, and other hormonal issues. I like “women and others who may become pregnant.” I will acknowledge this up top, and say that thereafter I will use the the term women but am using that as shorthand for all who may become pregnant. Thanks!
Anon
Those were assigned female at birth
Anonymous
only women menstruate and only women can become pregnant.
Anonymous
What is your favorite waterproof footwear? Preferably to wear to and from work and could wear with work dress clothes.
Anon
work + dressy + waterproof = aquatalia
Anonymous
+1.
Cornellian
or la canadienne
pugsnbourbon
Might not be dressy enough but check Blondo.
Sorel Harlows are great but probably too casual for what you’re after.
Anon
I’m bis cas and wear blundstones or red wing boots in inclement weather. They’re both water resistant which is enough for me
Anon
Blondo boots or booties. They are the best. Period. So comfortable. Used to commute in Boston (walking from Beacon Hill to Financial District) every day, year round. The best. /theend
Anon
For commuting or external meetings when it’s really pouring, I wear Crocs flats. It doesn’t look like they have any of the nice ones on their page right now, but the river site has some of the cuter ones.
Ellen
What about Doc Martens? I have a great pair that my housekeeper waterproofed for me. So far, they’ve remained dry and do not smell. YAY!!
Transplant Mom
Tomorrow is the day—my child is getting a new liver! And I’m his living donor. Wish us luck, friends.
Anon
Good luck, and may your doctors do everything they need to do for a smooth and complication-free operation.
Anonymous
Amazing! Wishing you all the luck and love in the world.
Anonymous
Will be thinking of you!
Anon
Mazel! I know two people who were living kidney donors to strangers. You are the best of people. Best of luck to you and your child.
More Sleep Would Be Nice
You and your child are amazing. Sending love.
NYNY
Oh wow, sending all the good wishes in the world!
Curious
Good luck, and may recovery be smooth and free of complications. This is wonderful news.
NYCer
Amazing! Sending lots of positive thoughts your way.
Nylongirl
Praying for you both & sending good thoughts your way!
Anon
Wow! Best of luck and wishing you both a speedy recovery.
Anon
This is so wonderful. Wishing you and your little one every good thing and holding you in my thoughts. Here’s to you both.
Anon
Amazing. Good luck, hope it goes smoothly for all involved. What a beautiful gift!
Anonymous
I’ll have you and your child in my prayers. Good luck!
SSJD
Good luck!! This is amazing news.
AIMS
All the luck!!!!
Walnut
Tears are welling in my eyes. Amazing! All the best for your family.
DallasAnon
I’m wishing you and your family all the luck in the world.
Daffodil
Good luck to you both!
Anon
Good luck!!! Will be thinking of you and your family and wishing for the best. What you are doing is absolutely beautiful.
Senior Attorney
Oh, this is wonderful!! Best of luck to both of you!!
Anon
Good luck!! Sending you prayers/positive vibes to your family and medical team!
Coach Laura
Good luck mom and child!
More Sleep Would Be Nice
Just screaming out into the void. I am pretty sure my boss is putting blame on me for something that’s not my direct fault and more of a convergence of factors.
In short, I had a task, I completed said task with all the requisite stakeholder engagement, and then upon completion, the team realized that due to other factors, we needed to go back and change things I determined in the original task. This has now spun into a THING where we are discussing how we define core values/terms of the project, have pulled in our expert consultant, etc.
Boss is also being a bit passive aggressive about giving me feedback – e.g. telling me on messenger “this can’t happen again”, “this is a learning experience for you”, vs. taking the time and calling me to discuss.
Just a vent, but any suggestions to manage would be helpful. At this point I plan to actively listen to understand her perception when we do speak, and then go from there. I do plan on sharing my perspective, which is something I usually don’t do (I’ll just say “Okay, feedback received, let’s move on”), but I just don’t feel like I should be the subject of her frustration.
Cat
so my advice depends on what the newly-discovered other factors were, but for boss, I would say “can we talk through how to vet factors like these upfront in the future? they only came to light after the fact with this project because xyz. I agree it would be ideal to avoid this type of backtracking in the future and want to understand how I can best do my part to prevent it.”
Jolene
It sounds like, in your view, there’s nothing you could have done differently in the situation to result in a better or different outcome. If your boss feels differently, try to find out what specific actions she believes you should have taken, or what you should have handled differently, that would have created a better result. It may be that this actually is a learning opportunity! And specifically WRT “this can’t happen again,” a completely fair question is, “What steps or actions would you recommend I take to ensure that this doesn’t happen again?”
If she can’t come up with any, that speaks for itself that you’re not “at fault,” without you having to get defensive. And even if there are things you could have done differently, oh well! That’s how people become experienced and seasoned in their careers – by doing something suboptimally, taking note of the lessons, and doing it better next time. How many years into your career are you?
OP
This is super helpful, and I agree. I’m fine with a learning opportunity, as this is in a skill set that I am building. I’m roughly 15 years into my FT work experience (went straight through to law school after college).
Anon
You sound really defensive, and perhaps I’m reacting to your comment that you’d usually just say “feedback received,” which would absolutely set me off as a boss. I think you probably have a lot to learn, and you’d be well served to be open to actually hearing your boss’ feedback. I’d consider setting up time with your boss to discuss and listen so you can learn how to do your job better.
Anon
Not OP, but why does saying “feedback received” set you off? Is it the tone or the message?
Cat
To me, “feedback received” sounds like the kind of thing you say when you disagree with someone but don’t feel it’s worth your time engaging further on the topic.
Anonymous
Nah, the fact that her boss is sniping at her via chat instead of setting up a productive discussion signals that it is very likely the boss who is in the wrong and feeling defensive here.
OP
Thank you for this perspective. I don’t ever say “feedback received”, I mean I just kind of…take it in? If that makes sense.
I’m also pretty senior but I still think I have a ton to learn, especially in this particular area (more tech/operations), especially from my boss. I have been defensive in the past and spent the last few years working through it.
Cat
Thank you for this perspective. I don’t ever say “feedback received”, I mean I just kind of…take it in? If that makes sense.
I’m also pretty senior but I still think I have a ton to learn, especially in this particular area (more tech/operations), especially from my boss. I have been defensive in the past and spent the last few years working through it.
Curious
Giving negative feedback via messenger is a no no. Leaving aside the opportunity for learning, I’d be irritated, too.
anon a mouse
It sounds like you have very valid reasons to be frustrated but that your boss is also frustrated. I would suggest going back and listing out the steps on the project that you took. Then critically think, for yourself, if you made certain decisions that you should have paused on or solicited different input on? For example, you determined things in the original task that now have to be changed. Did you get your boss’s signoff at the original determination? If not, should you have? Did you ask the right questions of the stakeholders, or would different questions have yielded a different result? Approach it as a thought exercise, not a defensive maneuver.
Then, ask for a meeting with your boss and walk through areas where you made certain decisions but you recognize you could have made different ones, and identify those tradeoffs. Acknowledge it is a learning experience and show that you are willing to learn. Ask your boss what they would have done in your shoes, or if there were things that they would advise you differently on next time. Mistakes happen – it’s how you respond and learn from them that matter. (and if your boss doesn’t seem to take that view, then you may need to dust off your resume.)
december
I hate to drag this topic up again for a 3rd thread, but I missed it yesterday and I just want to say thank you to everyone who expressed their trauma at having to deal with hospice at home. Everyone always talks about how great it is that the person gets to be comfortable at home, but the trauma for everyone else involved is “a topic we do not discuss.” How I wish anyone had told us what to expect during and after! I feel a little less alone and guilty knowing some of y’all had the same experience. Thank you.
Cornellian
My mom died nearly at home (spent a few hours in the hospital) when I was a teenager, and certain areas of the house I couldn’t use afterwards, because all I could see was her actively dying there. I don’t know what the answer is, but I wonder if you can devote some time or money to painting/reorganizing/redecorating the house. It’s rough
Anonymous
I was one of those people and just wanted to say I read your comment and it touched me
Anon
I didn’t comment on either of those threads because it’s still too raw, but I wanted to second this. I’m haunted by guilt that my father died in a hospice against his express wishes to stay at home. My mum and I simply couldn’t cope with caring for him at home with virtually no support, and the process was deeply distressing and traumatic for us both.
Anon
I am sorry for your loss. You and your mother made the best decision you could make in your particular circumstances. From personal experience, I can assure you that you would be haunted by other things if you had kept your father at home. I hope that in time, you have good memories replace the difficult ones from the final days.
Anon
I’ve been with my father and my daughter as they died at home with hospice care, and I was with my mom as she died in a hospital, and I’m here to say home is better. There is no “good” way but it was the best way for us.
Anon
“In a hospital” is very, very different from “inpatient hospice,” in my experience.
Anon
TW – death.
.
.
.
.
It is ten years to the day that my “fake mom” (e.g. not my actual mom, but closer than I am with my mom) passed of idiopathic pulmonary fibrosis, which is a disease that literally suffocates you over the course of weeks to months. I came home from work in the middle of the day on a Friday at her husband’s request (I lived there to help) to find her hospice nurse and private doctor “titrating her morphine” (e.g. putting into place her death plan) and watched her die. It was incredibly traumatic to watch someone die. I really don’t recommend it. I then had to call her children (who I am very close with) who were rushing to be by her side, to tell them she had passed, and then, because her husband was in pieces, I sat with the body, and tried to keep her dog from licking her hand to wake her up. I had nightmares/PTSD for years.
Home hospice is great, until it isn’t. I am so glad she got to go the way she wanted. I just wish I hadn’t been there for the very last few hours–I should have left it to professionals. I had never see a dead person before. I will never forget the funeral home zipping her into a body bag. And now I am crying just typing this.
Anon
OP who started the hospice thread yesterday
seconding the thank you to all who shared
very difficult place to be, all passings are important and none are less than
lots of grace and love to all of us
anon
I am still processing the trauma 20 years later from caring for my father at home when he died of cancer. The hospice people who come are like angels and my aunt who is a nurse helped us and it was still horrible. There are no good answers to these options, but I think it’s good you are thinking through them. I will say that being a caregiver in these situations is extremely difficult in ways most people are not prepared for. I’d make sure to plan on therapy for yourself because you will not just be processing grief over losing your loved one, you will be dealing with trauma from what you’ve seen and done in terms of care.
So Anon
Two work questions generally regarding a micro-managing boss. Boss is GC and I am assistant. Boss is generally an insecure person who is relatively new to this field: (1) Boss wants to be invited to every meeting that I attend, even when the meeting is a 1×1 with a peer of mine. I totally get it when the subject matter is a big deal and her peers are in attendance. (2) We are a small legal team, and really need each one of us to pull our share of the work to keep the department moving forward. Boss’s view is that meetings = work. Boss really likes to hold meetings and talk. Our team meeting is boss telling us what has occurred at other meetings. The other attorneys on the team, myself included, have a ton of work and are all under water. The bulk of our work is head down, deep work involving legal analysis. Boss cannot handle any complicated subject matter (which is all of our work) over email, and needs a minimum of 30 minutes to discuss any topic. The result is that we spend our work hours reading and explaining things to our boss, and then need to work off hours to do the actual work. Any advice on how to tell boss that we need time to work and cannot do everything in a communal meeting?
Anonymous
I just block out time on my calendar and decline meetings. “Sorry, need that block to draft xyz, I’ll circulate a draft.”
Anon
Block time on your calendar for the actual legal work.
Go as a group and tell your boss that the meeting times need to be drastically reduced.
Look for a new job. The GC shouldn’t be this clueless.
Anon
Look for a new job.
AIMS
Honestly, this. Unless your boss is showing signs of improvement this is impossible. I worked with someone like this and it was torture.
Ellen
This is why I do not think we should be general councils. Women at the top have to act like men to be in control and it runs counter to my nature not to be feminine. I have gotten to where I am by being smart and cute. If I had to lose the cute, I would be smart only and would be interpreted as a battle axe, Dad says. That is why he lets me dress the way I want and get all the clotheing I want, even if much of it is reimbursed. That shows that men love me as I am, complete with my female attributes they long for. Good luck to you, but watch it, b/c you do not want to be a GC. Then you will become the insecure battle axe we do not want to be.
Betsy
I’m facing some big renovations, the timing of which is being pushed by something that was done incorrectly when our house was built, is now causing problems, and will require tearing up a significant portion of our kitchen and bathroom to resolve. I keep joking that we should just tear down our house and start over…but what if that isn’t actually a joke? Has anyone gone through this and decided to rebuild rather than renovate? In our particular case, this is a 25 year old home that is a starter home both in the big picture and in the context of our neighborhood. It was pretty clearly built by a DIYer, and the upcoming years are going to bring a lot of age-related repairs that I suspect will involve finding more examples of a complete disregard for the building code. We see ourselves here for 5 to 10 more years – definitely closer to five without serious renovations, some of which will be difficult to accomplish in our current footprint. It’s currently worth about twice the balance of our mortgage. Any thoughts on how to start considering whether a major renovation or a tear down is the better option?
Anon
Have you considered selling and buying something that fits your needs? If the value is twice the mortgage, then you will have enough to cover a large down payment and just pay your mortgage on the new house without being stuck living in a construction site for the next 6-12 months .
Anonymous
How’s the location? What do comparable homes look like? Where will you live for the year it will take to do this?
Anonymous
If it’s a teardown situation and you only intend to stay 5 more years, why not sell and let some rich person deal with it?
Anonymous
Look for a construction cost calculator for your area and see what a rebuild would cost. It’s substantial given the cost of building materials and labor.
Anon
Generally a major renovation is going to be way less expensive than a complete rebuild even if it feels like that’s what you’re doing. In your shoes, I’d do all the necessary renos at the same time (you get a lot of scale efficiency doing it all at once) and consider moving out while it’s going on. It probably feels like a lot, but that’s probably your most cost effective option.
Anon
+1
NYCer
If you only want to stay there for 5 more years, I would probably do the bare minimum to make it livable and up to code, but nothing beyond that. Tearing down a house and rebuilding is a huge project. Very fun if you like design, etc., but it is a lot of work.
Anon
What would your basis be (purchase price + renos/rebuild costs) upon completion of a tear down and rebuild relative to home values today? If you’re in the money, basis is at or lower than the cost to buy something comparable, it could make sense (on paper).
Anon
Ironically, my husband and I were just talking about this yesterday, in regard to our previous house: we should have just torn it down and started over rather than pouring buckets of money into it over the years. It had serious plumbing, electrical and roof issues and then also at one point required a foundation repair. We also had many code violations, some of which were flagged when we purchased and some of which got flagged when we went to sell. That house had been built in the 1960s when they were putting up neighborhoods as fast as they could in that area of our city, and then had been added onto by a DIY’er and both of the additions (there were two) had serious, unfixable problems. It added up to a big mess. At the bare minimum, we should have demo’d the 1980s-style sunroom that had been added to the property by the DIY’er and leaked like a sieve. We spent five years, no lie, going back and forth with roof repair people and window people trying to fix that thing and it probably is back to leaking, if our experience was any indication.
I’ve never done a teardown and the logistics of that seem daunting to me. I wonder if it would be better to complete whatever repairs have to get done to get the house back into sellable condition and then just sell it and find something else? Unless the location is super-desirable or something. Otherwise, I would lean toward doing a major renovation so I could stay in the house (or at least not have to vacate during the entire demolition/reconstruction process.
I do highly recommend that if you decide not to tear down the house and instead decide to repair it, you try to get as much fixed as you can in the least amount of time possible. Just rip the band-aid off, put the money in and fix everything possible at one time. We tried to patch up/piecemeal the repairs over the years and it just prolonged the agony, having to do $10k worth of repairs every year or every other year.
Jolene
+1 to sell and buy something that already works for you. Save yourself the months of hassle.
anon a mouse
There’s no right answer here – so much of it is dependent on your area and your specific home and lot, plus your equity/finances. We started out wanting to do a major interior renovation and got some plans drawn for that. When we put them out for bid, the estimates came back at twice what we had expected (some because we had underestimated scope, some because of supply chain/labor cost increases). As part of our work we needed to upgrade electrical, redo plumbing, redo HVAC…. That quickly put us in the same spot as you are… if we are going to spend that kind of money, why aren’t we completely rebuilding the house? So now we are exploring that option. It will be maybe 15% more expensive but our house is way under the rest of the neighborhood in value. We’ve been told that we need to keep most of our existing foundation for permitting reasons (keeps it as a renovation rather than a “new build” and is cheaper) but this way we can raise our first floor ceilings from 8′ to 9′ or more, have bigger windows, higher ceilings on the second floor, etc.
BTW, if we could afford to move to a bigger house in our neighborhood we would just do that — it would be so much easier. But we have the good fortune of having bought a while ago, and we have substantial equity, so it makes sense to do this work at this scale.
Anonymous
In 2016 we bought a house knowing we’d take it to the studs. We stopped tracking our expenses at $100k: that was probably 7/8 of the way through the remodel. The house itself cost around $300k, and it was in a shady neighborhood ( our cars were routinely broken into in our driveway) with terrible schools. All that being said, remodeling the house was a blast. We did not live there while we remodeled: you can’t actually live there when it’s down to the studs but you know that. We ended up selling to move to the suburbs. We recouped our costs but only just. I can’t really advise you do or don’t, but I’d look carefully at actual whole house renovation costs before diving into that. Be sure to account for the cost of living somewhere else for 3-6 months while you do the reno. Good luck!
Sarabeth
Taking it down to the studs and adding on will still likely be much cheaper than literally tearing it down.
Construction prices are also at record highs right now, for everything.
Anonymous
Came up at the end of day yesterday but would you now avoid buying a home in a red state if living across the border in a blue state was an option? It’s not an issue of access to anything but more a matter of principle – like would it bother you to sink substantial savings, yearly taxes etc into a red state?
Anon
Yes. I live in a city, so purple to blue in my day to day. City won’t flip; state is whatever it is at the moment (D state offices, R federal senate, mix of D and R federal house). I don’t believe in red vs blue states in the states bordering mine — all is purple. With migration, cities may get more blue; rural population is shrinking or gets replaced by retirees from the northeast or hispanic migrants, so nothing is static, all is in flux.
Anon
For what it’s worth, the only states with 2 Republican US Senators and a Democrat governor are: North Carolina, Kentucky, Louisiana, and Kansas.
Anon
On the one hand, red states seem to have better tax rates/no state income taxes, but I don’t want to be the type of person who considers my bank account over peoples rights. On the other hand, staying in the red state means you can vote in the red state! I’d stay in the red state just for that and to possibly speak with my neighbors and educate them on the issues. You need to be there and interact with republicans in order to stand a chance at shifting things.
Cornellian
I’m struggling with this, too. In addition to voting and talking to neighbors, I think we should be donating part of the money we’ve saved by living in states subsidized by the federal government.
Anon
Yep! Donate to your state’s PP or similar organizations! But if ever Democrat only lived in blue states, we would only be hurting ourselves.
Anon
You know that’s because red states are subsidized by blue states, right?
Anon
What does this have to do with whether someone should choose to live in a red state or blue state? Is it just a dig at people who live in red states? I do, and I call my representatives, and I campaign for candidates I care about, and I vote for Democrats, and I’d be fine paying more taxes. I appreciate the federal money that comes into my state that helps people who need it.
To actually answer the poster’s question, I understand your hesitation, and I consider moving at least once a month. I do think there’s something to be gained by people who lean blue being able to vote in red states, as frustrating as it is right now. But I also don’t think people should be expected to make political points with their own bodies and lives if they do not want to do that, so no judgment if you did not decide to do that.
Anon
No but if part of your judgment about whether to live in a red state is because it’s cheaper, you must acknowledge that it’s cheaper because blue state taxpayers like me are paying your way.
Telco Lady JD
Yeah, but in return for that subsidy you get food and energy. So…it’s not a bad trade.
Anon
I’m in California. We could easily self-sustain here.
Telco Lady JD
In a state that frequently has earthquakes and occasional brownouts? Ok….
Anon
DMV area and have no problem living in V. Might have preferred D for some neighborhoods and proximity to work, but DC is such a basket case and you get jury duty way too often. The way the Potomac curves, parts of V are much closer than M to my job.
Anon
No, it seems like cutting off your nose to spite your face if you can find a home you like in a red state that’s likely cheaper with lower taxes than the blue state home.
Anonymous
It’s really an interesting part of a broader discussion between “I got mine” and “be the change you want to see in the world”. Modern life for the upper middle class probably put you somewhere in the middle of those two. I do wonder about how this worked in history. In the early days of our republic, did people have the same debates? We only hear about the people who were the change they wanted to see in the world.
anonshmanon
Hmm, you bring up an interesting point. Asking the other way around, are there real-world examples of states or countries turning around the political direction of policy with a strong motivation to be a more attractive place to live, vs. driven by activism of residents and policymakers? I think there are many examples where politicians aimed for a more business friendly environment through policy changes.
Anon
Yes.
I would not do it because my presence there is unlikely to change things, and I would not want my tax dollars going to support any Republican politicians I didn’t vote for in any way, shape or form.
Money talks and I want mine speaking loudly in favor of human rights, which the Republicans blatantly want to strip from people. Choices and actions have consequences, for all of us.
Senior Attorney
Same. Moreover, I will not be vacationing in any red states because I don’t care to give them one red cent of my money.
Anon
So where will you vacation? I’m honestly just looking for blue state ideas! I was considering a Florida beach vacation but obviously red.
Senior Attorney
This year our only U.S. trip is to Chicago for my birthday. For a beach vacation, I’d do California or Hawaii.
Anon
Maybe we’ll do an island. CA and Hawaii are too far and not within my budget! I just need a relaxing beach or pool to relax with a drink and book after the craziness of the past 2 years.
Anon
Same SA, I’m skipping a conference in FL for this reason. Not one cent.
Anon
No. But I’m a purple voter.
Anonymous
We are staying in a high cost blue state because it takes better care of its citizens. E.g., nursing homes have standards they have to meet and inspections. Red states don’t GAF about taking care of you.
Cornellian
Yeah, I think people forget about these differentiations. I specifically am not sure folks understand that when you try to keep paying CNAs and non-medical staff at these facilities 11 dollars an hour, keeping them from unionizing, not offering health insurance, etc, you inevitably get neglect of yourself/your parents.
Anon
Now I want to know which states do a good job! (Local facility just got in trouble for a bunch of violations that are the stuff of literal nightmares. I’m not sure people always realize how bad neglect can get.)
Anon
Yes, absolutely. I live in CA and pay high taxes and high everything to live here. In exchange, I get a base line of protection of my rights. Some things are worth it.
Anon for this
I feel the same way living in MA. “You get what you pay for” is very true. But I also get that if liberals only lived in blue states, the federal government would be very conservative due to the Senate rules and electoral college. I wish there was a way to abolish those.
Seventh Sister
As a CA resident, I don’t actually think that moving to a more-popular red state would save me any tax money while I’m still working. Yes, I’d probably have a larger house, but the rest of it is kind of a wash.
Anonymous
I’ll be honest – red state is better for me tax wise, property cost wise etc so yeah that’s where I’ll be. No I won’t be using my time to educate my neighbors as I have no interest in this becoming a higher cost blue state.
Anon
So your bank account is more important than other people’s rights? I have no interest in getting into an internet argument with you but I think you should really think about and sit with the real implications of what you’re doing. To you, your money is more important than actual human life.
Anonymous
Yes it is. I need to look out for me and money does that, not whatever rights people are upset about this week. Hey at least I don’t lie about it.
Anon
You need a roof over your head, clothes and food. Im sure you could afford all that in a blue state and pay your fair share in taxes. But whatever. As long as you can sleep at night and look yourself in the mirror.
Anonymous
Thoughts and prayers will totes be enough to keep you safe from the maternal mortality stats in this country. And I’m sure you’re magical immune to s.a. from sepsis related to miscarriages unlike that woman in Ireland. I’m sure she would still be alive if she had just prayed harder.
Anon
Thanks for saying the quiet part out loud, I guess?
I hope you never need help from a social structure and aren’t able to get it because you prioritized living where your bank account was healthiest and not in a place where people’s rights are respected. Don’t think it can’t happen to you because you’re rich; life-changing events happen to people every day. Especially people who have intentionally cultivated bad karma.
Anonymous
This is my parents. Let’s do everything we can to avoid paying taxes while taking as much as we can from Social Security and Medicare even though we are rich. Who cares what kind of world we leave for our grandchildren–we got ours. Wheeee!
anonshmanon
Good for you for being able to tune out that we are living in the actual plot of the ‘First they came for’ poem. Not standing up for marginalized groups is weakening civil society and will directly lead to more and more people being oppressed. But hey, it might never affect you in your lifetime!
Anonymous
To be fair this is every single Republican voter that I know personally.
Senior Attorney
A lot of people are just awful, it turns out.
Anon
Then stay out of my blue state when you need an abortion – don’t even think of flying here and taking away access from those of us who pay to support basic human rights.
Anon
This. Stay in your red state and raise the child that was conceived with your bf who then starts hitting you or even die when there are serious complications in the 4th month. You want the benefits of a blue state without the costs.
Anonymous
lol nice, wishing death and abuse on residents of red states.
More Sleep Would Be Nice
Nope. I wouldn’t, however, live outside of a major city at this point in life.
I am a consistently a Dem voter (Obama/Clinton Dem).
I live in a blue county/city and in a red state. I lived in a blue (and now red) state in a very blue area during the Trump years, and the superiority and echoes of “Red states deserve what they get”, “people in red states vote against their interests”, really emphasized to me that it’s just a circle with extremes on both sides, turned me off to red state vs. blue state framing for major life choices because there are nuances, and it is more of a metro area vs. suburbs vs. exurbs/rural area discussion.
Anon
+1. There are no blue states, just blue cities and red rural areas and suburbs somewhere in between. Even California is pretty conservative once you go inland, it’s just that the population there is much smaller than on the coasts. I don’t think it’s beneficial to write off huge areas of the country and dehumanization isn’t good on either side, as hard as that can be sometimes.
anon
oh yeah, drive 20 minutes from Berkeley to the nearest inland suburbs, and you will see plenty Trump Won banners along the road, even in 2022.
Anon
Yeah – I agree with that. Some of the posters above that look at red states as these horrible areas stealing from blue states are just…appalling.
I live in MA – it has a Republican governor (a pro-choice one at that). WV was 100% Democrat until less than 10 years ago. These things change. John McCain (the GOP nominee in 2008!) supported early term abortions!
Joe Biden voted to ban abortions after the first trimester!
It’s all so much more complicated than people want to make it out to be, and our current political alignment is just that – current.
NYNY
I have from time to time considered starting a movement to colonize a few small red states. It wouldn’t take a lot to flip Wyoming or South Dakota blue…
Anon
Don’t do this. Rural very is actually a really huge problem and completely different from urban poverty, and at least rural people in small states have some voice in their own state legislatures. When the big city dominates the state, the rural part goes from liveable to a wasteland.
Anon
Rural *poverty is actually a really huge….
Anon
And yet the rural voters get an outsized voice in the senators and presidents who pass laws that affect people in cities.
NYNY
Anon @10:53, I have spent considerable time in and am very familiar with both states, and I disagree with your take. SD in particular has been taken over by MAGA types who have little concern for the problems of their constituents, but instead pass ridiculous bathroom bills and trigger laws to ban abortion the second SCOTUS says they can. If roughly 100K progressives moved there and flipped it, schools would improve, Medicaid would be expanded, and the influx would create more economic opportunities for all. A lot of people are able to work 100% remotely now, so this isn’t just about populating “urban” SD.
Anon
NYNY, your condescension is off the charts. Do not move to be around people you hate.
I’m wondering how this plan works. Urban progressives happily move to be 300 miles away from the nearest Whole Foods in a car-dependent area? They would go to the cities and screw over the rural areas.
Just admit you don’t want to do the hard work of persuading your fellow citizens, understanding issues, or making policy that works for a variety of people. Admit you are full of hate for people who live different lives.
NYNY
Not condescending at all, and I do not hate people in the rural west unless they are hateful. I have family members I love dearly who live and work there, most of whom are Republicans, and a few of whom are Trumpers. I can hold my own in a conversation about ranching. I’ve debated the ACA with the former SD AG at a family wedding.
In the last two years, an enormous number of people who lived and worked in and near cities like NYC moved to far-off rural areas for more space and a different lifestyle. It’s proof of concept that this idea could work. I’m not moving any time soon, because my job and my husband’s job are location-specific, and because we love the arts and culture of NYC. But we aren’t everyone.
anonshmanon
I don’t think it’s so much about convincing people, and that is true for both parties. But the high cost of living in the Bay Area has driven enough people (probably also jobs) over to Reno, NV for years now (not yet counting pandemic impacts), that it’s turned purple when it used to be deep red.
And then there is the effect that once you enact liberal policies, even conservative voters are often not willing to give them up again, see ACA or Roe v. Wade, which enjoy broad public support.
Anon
I had to LOL at this. My entire family is from rural America and I have many relatives still living in rural areas. It’s not big-city/blue urban politics that makes those areas into a wasteland; it’s the rural residents’ own choices to preserve their “rural way of life” over investments in education, technology or economic development. There are multiple compound problems but it comes back to the idea that from what I have seen in my own family, the rural residents reject anything new, different, or “foreign” to them and then despair when their kids either leave home because there aren’t any good jobs, or when the kids stay and descend into alcoholism and meth or opioid addiction because they’re too scared to leave home, but too bored/hopeless to not continually numb themselves out. Go ahead and tell me I’m wrong. I’ll keep that in mind the next time I have to go pick up my cousin and drive him to rehab.
pugsnbourbon
Yeah I tend to agree with you Anon at 12:09. The Republican party’s use of propaganda to scare poor rural citizens into voting against their best interest has been wildly successful. I grew up in a rural area outside Cincinnati, my family is mostly still there. People who live there are afraid, roughly in order, of ) literal stormtroopers kicking in their doors and confiscating their guns, 2) Black and Brown folks, 3) trans women and 4) Hilary Clinton.
Anon
The New York Times did a piece on this a few years ago.
anon
I too wish more liberals would move to low population states.It would take the sting out of the fact that there are many state with populations smaller than my county population that get more Senate representation than my entire state.
Seventh Sister
In my family, most of my parents’ generation moved out of largely-rural red states (KS, MO and OK) into coastal states starting in the 1970s. The reasons were all job-related – most of the people in that generation were middle-income professionals without family money or connections. They stayed fairly conservative and most are churchgoing, but all of the ones that moved to CA/WA/MD/DE/etc. are in a much, much better financial position than the ones who stayed.While I occasionally fantasize about loving to a college town in the Midwest or the West, there are significant economic drawbacks, even with remote work opportunities.
Anon
Yes. I would live in the blue state.
Anon
IMHO, if you have some purple leanings and the ability to do public speaking, the red state can be a good option. Get your butt in front of the legislature to talk about – in a moderate way – reforms that are needed and amendments to bills. Talk about, hey, that abortion ban means you can’t get a blighted ovum or ectopic pregnancy removed, can we add in situations for impending miscarriage.
Anonymous
I am a really good speaker, but my family has begged me not to speak in front of the school board or the county board of supervisors or the state legislature because they are worried about the potential consequences.
Anon
Yeah people can be driven out of town for being openly Democrat in some parts of the country. The social ostracism and dirty looks is something adults can opt to ignore, but the bullying at school can be too much for their kids.
Anon
Potential consequences like what? Taylor Loenze coming after you?
anon
Yup. I’m a woman who plans to have more children. I also have daughters. I can’t control where they ultimately live when they’re older, but my god, I’m not raising them anywhere that doesn’t project unwavering support for their autonomy.
Anon
I think the only time I’d seriously consider only looking in the blue state is if the red state is one making laws that criminalize crossing state borders to get an abortion.
I’m in Philly so blue area of a purple state but a stones throw from blue NJ and Delaware.
Allie
I would only live in a blue state for a number of reasons but my top one is if my kids turned out to be trans I would want their school system to accommodate them.
AIMS
I don’t see it happening for myself because I don’t ever want to leave NY so take this with a grain of salt but in terms of abortion and stuff like that, I would love to live and VOTE in a red state.
However,I was very happy to be in NY during the pandemic and to feel like my government was more in line with how I wanted to approach the pandemic – all the caveats being that many many mistakes were made, but at the time I definitely felt better here than I would have elsewhere. I also really feel grateful that NYC was able to reopen schools sooner (which can’t be said for lots of other blue states). I would not want to be in some of the states banning books now but I would welcome the chance to go to those school board meetings!
I guess this is all to say that I think self-segregating on the basis of political beliefs doesn’t seem helpful at this point. This whole democratic experience doesn’t work if we all go to our corners.
Anon
I’m a moderate Dem in a teeny red county (pop. under 10k) in a purple state (flips according to the national mood). I know my vote counts in every single local election and I love that. And heck yes, I want them to raise my taxes because taxes go to the schools and the police and firefighters, and good grief, they all deserve much, much more than they’re getting. (For reference, we pay $1,100 annually on a $500k property.) It’s really possible to Be the Change in our tiny community, and I believe it’s important to talk to and get to know those different than you, and when you’re all at the same community event, it’s possible, and that’s how you build bridges and gently change minds.
anonshmanon
kinda wish you would share your county where this is possible, or for others to share similar counties.
Sleep
+1
Yes, I am very interested in moving to an area just like this.
Anonymous
I was just thinking about this. I’m on the border of a blue and a purple state and have been considering a move from blue to purple. I’m afraid to move to a state where a significant majority of elected representatives don’t think I’m a person. That’s what abortion rights come down to: does a woman have the right to control over her own body and her own health?
Seventh Sister
Since I have kids in public school, I’d pick blue state over red state. Even growing up in a blue state, I had biology teachers that refused to teach evolution in public school and s*x ed was woefully inadequate (and I’m not real impressed with the materials I’ve seen in our woker-than-woke school district in 2022). I want my kids to get an education and participate in extracurriculars, not watch the adults lose their minds over affinity groups or the one tr*ns kid that wants to play soccer.
Anonymous
Let’s be real – as much as people are saying abortions are necessary for pregnancies caused by non consensual acts, health of mother and child (and they are), seems like all of those reasons together make up like 15% of abortions. With the rest being – I don’t want a baby now or ever; it’s not a good time; I’ll have to be a single mom; it’ll ruin my finances, education, relationship etc. Sorry but isn’t that the risk you – the woman – takes EVERY time you garden? Sure it isn’t fair that a man can just walk away or stay and be relatively unharmed in his career/daily life, but I’m pretty sure it’s been that way since the dawn of time. I think there’s no reason to take away Roe but I do question why there’s so much casual gardening – outside of relationships or even in relationships without adequate protection – when you know what’s at stake for you, not the man. And I think in large part it’s this “comfort” of oh I’ll just take plan b if I have to or if I miss a period, I’ll have it taken care of. Was this a consequence of the gardening revolution – do what feels good, no need to wait ever bc if men don’t have to wait why should we?? Except men don’t carry the babies.
Anon
Who the heck are you talking to that gardens casually without protection on a regular basis and why do you hate women? Also, I wonder how someone who must have been born in the 1800’s is still alive to post this!
Anon
Not the OP, but a Guttmacher study from around 2014 showed that over half of women who seek abortions did not use any protection, and about half of those who did used it only intermittently.
Anonymous
My sister was one of them. She wanted her baby very much but unfortunately it was a non-viable pregnancy and she would have endangered her health carrying until miscarriage occurred.
The notion that women can intend to get pregnant and still need an abortion seems to be too complicated for OP to understand.
this is why abortion is healthcare.
Cat
um what. Are you advocating for abstinence unless you want to be a parent?
Anonymous
Agree. A lot of this is cultural in the west – fascinating not bring from the west. This is what happens when it’s SO important to have bfs/gfs in college for “experience.”
Anon
Yea all these western countries want their citizens to have s3xual freedom and not be ashamed or hide in a closet. Wow, how terrible for consenting adults to engage in s3xual activity if they don’t want to reproduce!
Anonymous
It’s not terrible. Just saying that people have forgotten that every single time you do it you COULD reproduce. It’s become so easy to take care of that “problem” that people rarely even consider anymore what’ll happen if they get pregnant 2 months before high school graduation or whatever.
Anon
I don’t think anyone is forgetting about science and biology except for anti vaxxers.
anon
You say “It’s become so easy to take care of that “problem” that people rarely even consider anymore what’ll happen” as if that’s a bad thing. That’s medical progress enabling people (including countless men) to have greater freedom and engage in enjoyable activity, which can also be beneficial for mental health and romantic partnerships.
If your cultural or religious background make you deeply believe that an embryo that could never survive without a mother’s uterus is a fully equal life, please recognize that not everyone shares that culture or religion. By supporting abortion bans, you are supporting forcing religious beliefs on others.
Anon
What’s wrong with that (that the problem is easy to take care of)?
Aunt Jamesina, Abortion Enthusiast
Teen pregnancy has fallen significantly in the past few decades.
Anon
I mean, there’s consenting and then there’s consenting. A lot of relationships in a patriarchal culture are coercive and exploitive in ways that disproportionately harm women. (If not straight up predatory: just look at the stats on teen pregnancy and the age of the dads!) Anxious, fearful, reluctant consent is common; consent under false pretenses is common.
In a culture that also has massive inequality, I think there’s something to the argument that when cultural mores are set by rich and privileged people, ordinary people who imitate them suffer (because they don’t have the same options or safety nets, in so many ways).
It’s just way too black and white to say that the sxl revolution has just been empowering to women, or has just been a set back, either way. (And meanwhile we’re still waiting for a bcp for men.)
Anon
Yea but I wouldn’t trust a man to properly take the bcp, especially if I wasn’t in a committed relationship with him.
AIMS
Most of the “West” is not even in the top 10 for abortions worldwide and not at all if you exclude the former Soviet countries (Estonia, Latvia and Ukraine).
There is no culture of “I’ll just have an abortion” in the West. Also, the solution is to promote better birth control use, not to eliminate abortion.
Anon
Abortion is extremely stigmatized despite being legal (for now), to the point that I know very few women who are open about having had one. I have a friend who had an abortion when she found out she was pregnant after her former husband walked out on her, and she has never told her family or her husband’s family about it, because of the judgment she knows she will face. I know the anti-choicers love this narrative about women who just go “casually” get abortions, but for the women I have known who have made that choice, the decision to abort is very complex, there are big feelings of guilt and shame, and in most cases they wish they could decide something different, but are just not in a position to carry or raise a child. It is the opposite of a “casual” decision. That doesn’t mean they regret the abortion or that it damages them in some way (another narrative I know the anti-choicers love – do this and it will mess you up forever), but it’s not like, la-di-da, oh no I got pregnant again! Let me run to the clinic before my hair appointment.
AIMS
That’s probably all correct. My point is that this has nothing to do with the hedonistic west. The non-hedonistic Russia and China has waaaaaaay more abortions.
Anonymous
This. My college roommate got an abortion after her fiancé threw her down the stairs after he found out she was pregnant because she took antibiotics while on the pill and he refused to wear condoms. If you ask his family, she was never pregnant. If you ask her family, she had a miscarriage and he left her because she lost the baby. She and I and her doctor know the truth. She had to move states and change all her social media to get away from him. I have zero doubts that her abortion saved her life.
Anonymous
Are you just making up random stats? If you are using ancedata – I know one woman who had an elective abortion and 13 friends who have had D and Cs for miscarriages or other health related issues. Including my sister who had 4 before being able to have her second living child at 32 weeks. I can’t even imagine the emotional trauma if she had to travel out of state for each of those.
If you want actual facts – 100% of abortions are for women accessing healthcare who do not need to justify their bodies to you.
Lily
Setting aside your raging sexism, ask yourself this: would you rather these selfish, horny, hedonistic women who can’t be bothered to avoid pregnancy but do NOT want a child (a) actually give birth and then abuse, neglect, or abandon these innocent children? OR (b) that they abort and no unwanted child has to suffer for their “sins”/no one else has to pay to raise that child? Maybe thinking about it that way will change your view about just how necessary “elective” abortions are. You clearly hate women, but maybe you care about abused/neglected/abandoned children.
Anon
Not the OP. Survivor of childhood abuse. I would rather be alive than not, and I don’t think that my childhood (which has permanently rewired my brain) means I’m not just as worthwhile a person as a wanted child.
Anon
But that’s your own experience. Many people feel differently.
Anon
I don’t think anyone is saying victims of child abuse are not worthy valuable people. You know you are. She’s saying that in order to avoid traumatizing women by forcing them to give birth when they are not ready and then unable to properly care for their child, they should be able to make the decision whether they want to carry the fetus to full term and give birth.
Anon
Counter data point to Anon at 11:00: I was an unwanted, merely mistimed and inconvenient, child. While we are both as worthwhile as wanted children, I wish my mom had terminated her pregnancy with me. Me not being born compared to the pain experienced by my other family members and me isn’t even a contest, for me.
Anonymous
Because men and society pressure women into it, that’s why. A woman who wants to protect herself against risks is “repressed.”
Anon
Is your argument that pregnancy, childbirth, and potentially childrearing should be… what… a punishment for women having sex? Because that’s what this sounds like. And you say you don’t see a reason to take away Roe, so what is the point of this post? Is it a subtle brag that you’ve taken a time machine here from the 1800s, or…?
Anonymous
Assuming your stats are correct, you want to kill the women who fall into that 15% to punish the others for their licentious ways?
Anon
Right?!
Ribena
Yeah, that’s the risk, but now we have great mitigations like contraception and terminations.
To put this another way:
“I understand that some people who die in car crashes are hit by drunk drivers and speeding drivers, but that must be 15% of the total. Does everyone else just get in a car without considering the risk?”
No, we have seatbelts and car design to keep people as safe as possible.
Anonymous
Oh look. A time traveller from the 1700s. Do you also ascribe to Alito’s support of Matthew Hale? Wonder if Alito also supports Hale’s views on the non-existence of marital rape that once you consent at the marriage ceremony you cannot retract.
Anonymous
Hi women like sex
Anon
+100000000
Anonymous
Sure and everyone once in a while that results in an unexpected pregnancy so then deal with it without whining that now you’ll have to travel 250 miles on avg for an abortion and how ever will poor women deal with that. I mean the gardening was fun so then deal with the consequences whether the state helps or not.
Jolene
But… why should they have to travel 250 miles at all? Why not just, let them have medical care like any other person in any other situation?
Anonymous
What about all the women who didn’t choose to engage in the activity but were coerced or pressured into doing so?
Anon
This is ridiculous. What about women whose birth control failed, are victims of stealthing where the guy removed a condom without her knowledge? There are so many ifs involved here. You honestly sound like a naive college freshman.
Anon
You should get some therapy to figure out why you think liking and enjoying s*x means someone deserves punishment. For real. You likely will not be able to have a healthy s*x life, solo or with a partner, until you get that figured out.
Anon
Seriously. Undo whatever brainwashing has happened to you, OP.
Anon
100% re sex and therapy. Probably grew up in a very religious toxic household
anonshmanon
lol the state helps. You are not arguing in good faith if you describe not making something a crime as help.
Aunt Jamesina, Abortion Enthusiast
You could also just “deal with it” by not getting your nose out of joint about other people’s medical decisions and also by not getting an abortion.
Anonymous
yes.
Anon
Not this person, who is apparently stuck in some kind of time loop from the 1800s where women are supposed to be repressed and deny that they like s*x or that they have s*x, and if they don’t do that, it means they’re moral failures and they deserve to have to raise an unwanted child. I’m sorry for the OP that she’s like this but that’s not everyone else’s problem. I also feel sorry for whoever she’s partnered with (if she has a partner), TBH. Living with these kinds of viewpoints has got to be exhausting and sad.
PolyD
Hey, fun! Let’s judge everyone else’s sex lives!
Mistakes happen. The consequence for a mistake should not be, You must go through this rather arduous physical experience that may or may not leave you with long term health and financial consequences.
If someone is in a car accident and injured another person, we don’t say, Well, you will have to be this person’s legs because they can’t walk now. You will stay with them and do all their errands and fetching of things they can’t do. Heck, if someone causes a car accident that results in someone losing their kidneys, we don’t force the accident-causer to donate a kidney!
Name another mistake in which a person is forced to use their body in a way they don’t want. Going to jail doesn’t count.
Anonymous
Well I mean you can take that up with the higher power one day as to why he made it that only women have to carry babies. Not saying it’s fair but it is what it is and unless child bearing somehow changes, the risk is on the woman.
Ribena
But as I said…. We have ways to mitigate that risk now. We don’t just “accept the risk” that cutting one’s finger while making dinner will kill us, now we have antibacterial cleaners, and antibiotics, etc.
Anon
Ribena, the means of ameliorate that risk are not comparable to antibiotics.
Ribena
An early stage termination is a course of two pills. It’s less onerous than antibiotics and doesn’t have the potential to cause antibiotic resistant disease. Stop your moralising.
Anon
If I believed in a higher power, I’d point out that “he” also gave humans the capacity to discover and invent medications and medical procedures, and then to use said medications and medical procedures.
anonshmanon
this right there. If you believe this moral mandate comes from a higher power, could YOU fucking leave it to that higher power to deal with us sinners? Why is the republican party playing god?
PolyD
But if you destroy someone’s kidneys in a car accident you cause, why shouldn’t you have to donate one? Why should pregnancy be the only physical thing you force someone to go through for someone else?
If a woman can’t “kill” an embryo, why should any adult be allowed to “kill” another person because they selfishly want to keep both kidneys. Most people survive fine with just one.
Anon
If you destroy someone’s kidneys in a car accident (assume drunk driving or some other reckless endangerment), and further, without your kidneys, they die, you will actually have to donate your kidneys or face a homicide charge.
Normally this doesn’t come up because the victim dies and it’s not like the perp is a match for their organs, but in your hypothetical….
Aunt Jamesina, Abortion Enthusiast
Source?
PolyD
Anon at 12:33 – is there really a case where someone who was unwilling was forced to donate their kidney? I’d like to read about that.
And see my comment below: if a living child needs a kidney or piece of liver or bone marrow, why do we not force their bio-parents, whether custodial or not, to submit to testing to see if they are a match? I’m not even talking forced to donate, just forced to test. If there’s a case where a parent was contacted by law enforcement and forced to show up at a hospital for donor testing, I’d be interested in seeing it.
So what we have here is that a pregnant woman is the only person forced to keep another person alive by using her body. Organs are not even forcibly removed from dead people, and people die every day for lack of donor kidneys.
I don’t think I’ve ever seen an answer to why we can force pregnancy on a living woman but cannot force organ donation from a dead body.
Anon
Yeah, Anon at 12:33 imma need a source on that because it sounds like total BS to me. Never heard that in my life, ever.
Anon
Good perspective, I’ve been trying to put this same idea into words for a while. Sometimes birth control fails despite best efforts – but sometimes, you just make a mistake. You use condoms 99 times but the one time you don’t … pregnant. If you want to assess fault to this, fine – but other ‘mistakes’ for legal behavior have the same kind of lifelong physical, financial, and emotional consequences of an unwanted pregnancy? It’s not like it’s a foreign concept to give adults mechanisms to correct mistakes: marry the wrong person? Get a divorce. Accrue a ton of debt? Declare bankruptcy. I’m not saying these are equivalent decisions, but the disproportionality of the size of the mistake to the size of the consequence in cases of unwanted pregnancies is one of many arguments supporting access to safe and legal abortion.
PolyD
Again, no other mistake requires you to use your body in a way you don’t want. If you cut someone, you don’t have to donate blood to them. If you injure their liver, you don’t have to give them a piece of your liver. If you blind them, you don’t have to give them one of your corneas.
Please explain why pregnant women are the only ones forced to use their body in a way they don’t want for someone else’s benefit.
Shelle
To quote the Emperor’s New Groove: You really should have thought of that before you became peasants!
Anon
Did you pull that number out of your a s s? Where is that coming from?
Anon
This reads to me like someone who grew up being told that s*x is dirty and bad and only “bad women” enjoy it. Like, I’m sorry about that? But therapy is available to help you overcome this programming. Please do not think everyone was raised like this, everyone thinks like you do/has these hang-ups, or that this kind of prudish moralistic nonsense needs to dictate public policy. In the immortal words of Miranda Hobbes: “This has nothing to do with me; this is your stuff.” Don’t put your “stuff” on the rest of us, please. Go get some help to change your thinking about s*x.
Anonymous
I don’t think your description for the reasons women get abortions is supported by the data. Consider more than half of women who have abortions have a child at home already, about 12% are teenage girls, and about one-third are young women between 20-25 years old. Approximately 75% are in households under 200% of the federal poverty line. Whether or not you agree with their actions, I would hope everyone can find some sympathy for girls and women who find themselves in tough situations.
Sources:
https://www.guttmacher.org/fact-sheet/induced-abortion-united-states
https://www.parents.com/parenting/i-m-a-mom-and-i-had-an-abortion/
Anonymous
To answer your question, this is why I truly believe the only justification is that you do not consent or no longer to use your very body to keep this being alive. You can be the world’s cruelest abuser or the world’s drunkest driver and the government cannot use your body to keep your victims alive. S3x, no matter your personal moral hangups, should not mean a person no longer has ownership of her own body. I have two kids and wouldn’t wish unwanted pregnancy and childbirth on my worst enemy.
PolyD
Exactly. I don’t see prolifers arguing that parents should be required to donate organs or even blood to their living children if their children need it.
I mean, can you imagine that an absentee dad is a match for his child that needs a kidney and the police find him, forcibly bring him to the hospital, and force him to donate a kidney? Or the same man’s child needs a bone marrow transplant and he’s apprehended and forced to submit to bone marrow testing?
Why are living children sacrificed for bodily autonomy?
Emma
Even if it’s just “oh I have to be a single mom and that doesn’t work for me” for some reason (and I strongly doubt that 15% number), forcing people to have babies they don’t want/don’t feel up to raising for whatever reason is bad policy. Moms who are too young to have babies, who can’t afford babies, whose mental or physical health makes them unfit to carry or raise babies, who are on drugs, or who just really don’t want babies for whatever reasons, are a lot more likely to not raise happy, functional kids, particularly if dads are not in the picture or have the same issues (and I don’t mean this as a jab at all these parents – I know some of them do an amazing job, but no one should be forced to do that and the reality is that some don’t). Single moms are a lot more likely to be victims of poverty, violence, and abuse. If it was really all about the kids, we would accept that people get to decide when they want to have kids because they feel like the circumstances are right for them.
Anoneighmys
Why someone chooses or chooses not to garden, carry a pregnancy to term, have a baby, keep a baby, marry, break up or anything else is none of my damned business and it sure as hell isn’t the government’s.
Aunt Jamesina, Abortion Enthusiast
Exactly. And we need to call out Republicans on their “small government” line every. single. time.
Anonymous
No one is running around using abortions as birth control. It is an invasive, painful, expensive, emotionally charged procedure that no one wants to ever have to experience – yes that includes taking the pills too. I have never known a single woman who actually thinks this way, yet this myth persists that most women who get abortions are irresponsible and blasé about it. I truly don’t understand where it comes from.
Squeak
I guess I’ll be the one to say it? Gardening is fun! Why should I deprive myself of a fun thing if I can take reasonable steps to mitigate risks resulting from fun thing?? Also, we are all flesh hunks driven by hormones – it’s pretty reasonable that we don’t always think clearly when it comes to gardening with the object of our affection/attraction.
If you wanted to say you’ve never had an orga$m, you should have just done that.
Anon
I’ll say some more stuff:
I also think “gardening” is fun and it’s a big part of the happy, healthy relationship I have with my husband. The relationship is not built on gardening or all about the gardening but after 20+ years together, we still both enjoy it as much as we always did.
We gardened a lot, for many years, before we decided to try to get pregnant. Then I could not get pregnant to save my life, and we needed fertility treatment. After I got pregnant using fertility treatment, we decided we did not want any more children and I got an IUD. There was a time period in my life during which, if my IUD had failed, we would have kept the resulting pregnancy and even been happy about it (after overcoming the initial shock). But now, I am in my mid-40s and my husband is in his early 50s and our child is in striking distance of graduating high school. If I were to get pregnant, I would terminate, because A. the likelihood of genetic disorders from my extremely old eggs and my husband’s ancient sperm is too high and B. we simply do not want to start over raising an infant. We’re too old for all that. It’s not the child’s fault, no, but I also don’t know how many people would voluntarily sign up for a life where their parents are too old and lack the energy to effectively parent; their only sibling is almost old enough to be their parent and won’t be around for their childhood; and they’ll likely end up either having to care for their elderly parents or lose their parents at a young age. It doesn’t seem fair to the kid, for me. That being said, I acknowledge the decision to terminate would be “selfish” on my part, and I’m fine with it.
And we have plenty of money and resources so I know if I needed to terminate I could make that happen, regardless of what happens with Roe. But I feel for other women my age, without my resources, who are going to find themselves pregnant and not be able to make my same choice because they simply can’t. What happens to those women? What happens to the children they end up having? What happens to the partner and the children the woman already has, in that scenario? This is why I am pro-choice.
Anon for this
WHAT THE ACTUAL F?!?! This is an insane viewpoint.
Birth control fails. So even who you’d deem “responsible” people, who are gardening in the situation you’d permit (apparently you get to dictate???) can still get pregnant. Apparently your take is that nobody should ever have sex again unless they are cool with having a child??
And yes, that was me. Married, 41, on the pill since I can’t do an IUD and we can’t afford a vasectomy on our lousy insurance. And suddenly pregnant. Not only did we not want a child, carrying one to term would be dangerous for me due to health issues and I was so sick at 8 weeks pregnant I couldn’t work. Thank god for Planned Parenthood, for giving me my life and health back.
Again
OP sounds like a poster who posts frequently (daily or close to it) about career issues, feeling beholden to/pressured by her parents and relatives, being single in late 30s/early 40s, anxiety about various issues, and is [South?] Asian. She has a very distinctive writing style that jumps out at me every time. If so, I hope she gets some help.
Anonymous
Abortion laws should not be used as mechanism for controlling women’s sex lives or lives in general.
Carryon packing
Going to my in-laws for a week at the end of the month. We are flying spirit because the other options were crazy expensive and we’ve had a decent experience flying with them before (it’s a 2 hour flight).
After being home for basically 3 years I have apparently forgotten how to pack very light. Help me! Weather will be highs in the mid 70s. We can do laundry there. I need one decent outfit for Memorial Day bbq but otherwise very casual.
Cat
by casual do you mean you’re hanging out at home and can just wear things like leggings? For a week in that climate I’d prob wear jeans and sneakers on the plane, bring 2-3 bottoms (leggings, joggers, shorts), 3-4 tops (short and long sleeved), one pair of casual sandals, and the cute bbq outfit.
Deedee
Easiest way to stay light is to pack minimal shoes and beauty stuff. I try to keep shampoo/make up etc into a quart size bag by decanting into what I actually need for a week. The only things I typically can’t fit in that bag for a week is a small hairbrush, my preferred travel electric toothbrush, and glasses in a case.
I’d personally wear a workout outfit and sneakers onto the plane, pack one set nice pjs since you’ll be with family, maybe another athletic outfit if you work out on vacation, sandals, underthings, and 3 casual dresses since 70 is perfect weather! If you’re a shorts person your outfits could equally be 3 tops, a pair of shorts and maybe a pair of pants or jeans.
Anon
I’m getting my old tricks back together. I can get a lot more in a bag if the items are “light,” so things in light fabrics, even dresses that pack down small are good to take. You only need one pair of jeans (those can be worn over and over). Basically assess all clothes for smooshing. Plan to iron or steam on arrival as needed (also, many hotels have steamers if you ask, they’re just not in rooms). Wear sneakers on the plane and minimize other shoes (although flats take up way less room than heels). Get your makeup down to the minimum and don’t take anything you can get at the location. For me, I can live without my favorite shampoo and conditioner but not my styling cream or dry shampoo. Take the product with the biggest bang. And decant into small containers or get trial sizes.
Anon
Two pairs of pants or shorts or skirts, plus the one you’re wearing on the plane. Five tops, like tee shirts. Wear a cardigan or light jacket on the plane. Wear whatever closed toe shoes you’re bringing and pack one pair of sandals or flip flops. Travel sizes of toiletries, you can always buy more where you are headed. One pair of pajamas/sleepwear. 5 underwear. One swimsuit. Makeup in your purse.
Do not pack anything you don’t wear regularly at home. I cannot emphasize this enough. If you don’t wear it at home, vacation you is not suddenly going to like it.
Anon
– be ruthlessly honest about yourself/your vacation. I just came back from our Caribbean honeymoon where I had packed gym shoes and a sports bra. Hahahahaha.
– consider doing laundry at your in-laws and rewearing items
– limit yourself to 1 pair of jeans/pants, 1 outerwear item (sweatshirt or jacket), 1 set of PJs
– wear the jeans, sneakers and jacket on the plane
Anonymous
Can we share ideas for what companies and institutions can do to help women? I was thinking there could be free pregnancy tests in public bathrooms (Starbucks? high school lockerroom?), like the big silver dispensers for tampons. One big company (Amazon?) has said that they’ll provide money and time off to anyone who needs to travel out of state for a medical procedure.
Anonymous
Those tampon dispensers are always empty. Also no way would I take a pregnancy test in a public restroom where someone could fish it out of the trash and use it to prosecute me.
What companies with deep pockets ought to do is lobby state legislatures and Congress.
Anon
But those same companies depend on keeping Republicans in office for low corporate taxes.
Anonymous
We are talking about what they should do, not what they will do.
Anonymous
We are talking about what they should do, not what they will do.
Anonymous
Amazon’s offer is meaningless. I know basically zero women who felt comfortable disclosing their need to an abortion to anyone other than their doctor. That includes friends who have needed a D and C due to a miscarriage. And one friend who did was treated to a colleague who asked them if they didn’t want to wait a week or two for nature to take its course in case the doctors were wrong and Jesus saved her baby and offered to put extra paper towels in the wash room in case she had a lot of bleeding at work.
Seventh Sister
Yeah, every place I’ve ever worked would have the judgiest, most uptight, most incompetent person handling this kind of HR task.
Anonymous
Stop giving any money to the Republican Party. That’s basically the only thing that will help.
PolyD
Co-sign co-sign co-sign.
Even if your “nice” Republican rep seems pro choice, they all eventually cave and go along with the party line.
anon for this
Yep. Amazon gives a ton of money to politicians that support these policies.
Anon
Honest, I find policies like Amazon’s kind of insulting and more likely to create the perception that this will only affect the unlucky poor people, not all women. It certainly won’t help anyone who’s physically incapable of traveling due to pregnancy complications but needs an abortion ASAP, which could happen to anyone capable of pregnancy, and many of the new state laws don’t have clear protections in all scenarios. I guess it’s better than nothing, but it still wreaks of just telling women to go back to work, there’s nothing to worry their pretty little heads over. And who wants to tell HR they need a week off to get an abortion, especially given the possibly traumatic circumstances for some women?
Anon
Oops, that should be reeks, not wreaks. And honestly, not honest. How is autocorrect still so bad? It turns everything I type into gibberish!
Anonymous
+1. The more big companies push private solutions to problems, the less pressure there is for governments to step up and bear their responsibilities.
Anonymous
Donate lots of money to destroying the Republican Party
Anon
This.
Anon
I don’t want to tell my employer I need an abortion. Ew.
Former Amazonian
I had an abortion while working at Amazon. I had the most wonderful manager ever at the time. There is no way that I would have disclosed to my manager. I was fortunate that I was able to secure a Friday appointment and did not need to travel that week. It was hard enough to accommodate the appointments, which were only 2 miles away from my desk. People who say going to another state is NBD must not know what it is like to have a demanding job.
DC eyes
Sorry for the repeat — looking for DC eye doctor recs. I can’t find the thread that I posted last week, despite having tried the Google trick. Any suggestions welcome, particularly for women providers; I think someone mentioned an ophthalmologist who’s one of her favorite providers ever. Thanks!
Anon
I’m the one who liked My Eye Dr at 19th and Eye – but the provider is a male.
Anon
are you open to Maryland? Pamela Cheung at Maryland Eye Consultants & Surgeons
Morning Person
Dr. Jing Guo at MyEyeDr in Gallery Place was very kind, and sufficient for my needs! But I just need an updated prescription, no complications.
Anonymous
posted a few days ago late in the day, then got distracted: how do you help a child (12yo) who gets a thrill from secretly stealing candy and hiding evidence? (And then lying about it?) This is a problem we’ve had for a while now – shoeboxes full of candy wrappers under his bed, candy wrappers floating in toilet. He says no to a psychologist. Tonight I told him he has to go to bed earlier and journal every time he feels the urge to steal.
(not stealing from public places, but stealing from his brother/grandma /etc.)
trying to avoid it turning into binge eating or other addictive/secretive/thrill behavior like cutting, shoplifting, drugs/booze. he’s also obese and depressed about it.
Anonymous
This has got to be fake, but if it’s not, tell grandma and siblings that no candy is allowed in the house.
Anon
Why does he say no to a psychologist?
If he won’t go, go without him so a professional can give you insight.
Anonymous
This was me and therapy wasn’t as big a thing then and I wish my parents had gotten it for me. He doesn’t get to say no. Book it. Drive him there.
Senior Attorney
This. He’s a kid and he doesn’t know what’s good for him.
BeenThatGuy
This. The eating is a symptom of a larger problem having nothing to do with physical hunger or obesity. Get him therapy with someone who specializes in eating disorders.
Anonymous
You wouldn’t let an anorexic 12 year old decide their own treatment options – don’t let an obese one do that either. Obesity in a 12 year old requires medical intervention and likely substantial changes by the whole family.
Treat the food stealing like regular stealing of any belongings – has to use his own money to repurchase items, must return to whom he stole from with apology card and offer to perform and act of service.
Anon
I agree with the first part. I think I didn’t grow up in a household where “eating food that was in the house” could be characterized as stealing, and I feel weird about that. A child is totally dependent on caregivers for access to food in the first place, and I’m not sure it’s healthy to have a lot of strict rules about when “eating” constitutes theft.
Anon
I swear the way this board pathologizes fat children is sick. Leave them alone. Unless you are force feeding them, people have different body types.
Anon
No. I was a fat child and it was absolutely a symptom of medical issues (i.e., it was pathological). I needed medical intervention; to me it’s the idea that kids get fat just because they’re lazy or greedy that’s sick (though it’s prevalent even among healthcare providers).
Anon
There’s different body types and then there’s 12 year old kid is too overweight/out of shape to play with his friends which is a totally different ball game and absolutely requires intervention
Anonymous
This is not about judging a kid for being a bit chubby.
This kid is stealing from his siblings and has shoeboxes full of candy wrappers under his bed. That is not healthy behavior regardless of the number on the scale.
Anonymous
I was a fat child and it was because emotional eating was a silent way to cope with my very stressful home life, not my body type. In fairness, medical intervention wouldn’t have helped as much as psychological intervention or family intervention. I have fully understood the relationship between calories in/calories out since I was 9, so it had nothing to do with lack of health information. It had everything to do with me being completely desperate to soothe myself and having no other way of doing so because I was a young kid without sufficient coping skills to process the chaos around me, and (I think correctly) perceived that the adults around me were too preoccupied for me to bother them with my problems but food was available (if I’d been old enough to easily access drugs or alcohol I probably would have used those)
Anon
Do you forbid him from eating candy and that’s why he wants it?
Mouse
I think the main issue here is the stealing. When I has a kid my mom caught me grabbing candy out of a bin and made me apologize to the store manager and pay him back for it with my won money. That embarrassment stayed with me!
I think there’s a possibility that the secretly hiding/eating candy could be a result of severe dietary restrictions at home, or shaming over “good” and “bad” food. If you’re emphasizing his size like you do here that could contribute to his need to lash out. Also also, he’s prepubescent – my brother was a chubby kid but his body completely changed once he hit puberty. There’s no reason to obsess about his body unless there are health issues. Yes, eating excessive amounts of candy isn’t great, but I can tell you from experience that being stressed out about my body as a kid is still something I have to work on as a grown-ass woman and it blows.
Also, you’re his parent. YOU get to decide if he does to a psychologist or not. If he broke a leg and refused to go to the doctor would you just shrug it off?
Mouse
And yeah – I hope this is fake. It’s depressing.
Anonymous
Spitballing because while I have kids none of them are or will ever be 12 year old boys:
– what does he do in his free time? Could he have less free time and more time to spend on a hobby, club, or sport? Does it have to be “active” but not games/screens. My husband got in with a “bad crowd” in high school and his parents doubled down on funding his hobbies. He ended up restoring cars instead of sitting around selling drugs and smoking weed during the week.
– does he have a friend pack and/or live in a neighborhood where he can roam freely? Can you encourage that?
– who has all this candy? This is more of a parallel situation but can it all just be thrown away? Obviously there’s a bigger issue here but when my kids kept sneaking candy I got tired of it and threw it all away.
– can you help him come up with chores/jobs to earn money to buy the treats himself (see my first point). Is the sibling older or younger? Can he be a mentor or babysitter for a neighbor? Do yardwork? Be in charge of family meal planning and cooking?
Idk about the journaling suggestion. I’d have rolled my eyes really hard at that as a kid. Could he pay back whomever he is taking this candy from?
-What about Make it a non-thrill. “Okay, you owe Brother X for the candy you ate last week. Brother, go get it from his piggy bank.” Don’t get mad. Don’t make him journal his feelings.
Also, I’d keep stealing and being a slob separate offenses. Dude can’t be leaving candy wrappers in the toilet. Make him clean the bathroom.
Anon
I think you have the obesity/food addiction issue and the stealing/lying issue.
You treat the obesity/food addiction medically: with therapy and a dietician.
You discipline the lying/stealing the way you would normally discipline lying/stealing.
And you handle the leaving wrappers around the way you handle other cleanliness issues/undone chores/belongings not put away.
The Lone Ranger
Family counseling.
Anonymous
Child must choose a sport or physical activity to participate in at least 3x/week, just as my normal-weight children are required to do. Make sure you are serving *appealing* healthy meals and offering portion-controlled treats regularly so they are not a coveted item. If he steals treats, don’t keep the treats in the house, but make sure you provide them a couple of times a week by going out for ice cream, bringing home one cupcake per person, baking one dozen cookies and freezing the rest of the dough, etc. Don’t let siblings or other family members keep candy around.
Anon
All great advice here!
Kids should absolutely be involved in physical activities and be given time for active play/time outside on days when they don’t have any official activity.
Eating healthy should be the norm and should be appealing. There are so many super delicious ways to eat healthy. And 100% agree to not keep unhealthy food in the house but to provide avenues to have it a few times a week in limited portions.
These are all things that were instilled in me as a kid but I still have to consciously do now.
Anon
Why does the 12 year old child get veto power over a psychologist?
Anon
+100
Anon
“he’s also obese and depressed about it.”
This is why he’s stealing candy. I’m not going to write a novel-length explanation as to why this is the case – you can go do some research for yourself – but as a former overweight kid, I can tell you this is the same kind of thing I did when people shamed me for my weight. I’m not sure if you’re the mom who has posted a few times about how disappointed/disgusted you feel about your son being overweight, but if you are? Guess what, mama – he’s picked up on that. Add in the millions of little “innocent” comments you’ve probably made, not being able to fit into clothes or do certain activities, the teasing he’s getting at school, etc. It’s all coming together, creating self-destructive behavior. Because he likely feels that if he’s already fat, and worthless, what does it hurt to eat the candy, even if he has to steal it?
I don’t blame him for not wanting to go to a therapist. That puts the onus of the problem all on him, and he was not born this way, sorry to break the news to you. You ALL need therapy. This is a systematic family problem. You need to figure out why the kid is stealing/sneaking food. The kid needs coping mechanisms to deal with the negative messaging he’s getting at home and out in the world. News flash, if you ALL don’t get some help and change your patterns, this can absolutely turn into addictions, self-harm, etc. All love, but wake the f— up. You are assisting in creating this problem, even if you think you are not. You’re the parent. You set the tone. Something you are doing or saying is reinforcing for your child that they are not worth self-care, self-love, etc. Work on that rather than trying to put it all back on your kid and his lack of self-control, or whatever your excuse is.
Betsy
+1 This has nothing to do with candy, or even with stealing. Using journaling as a consequence says to me that you are over your head here and need outside help. Family therapy as well as individual counseling for YOU as well as your kid is the answer here. Your kid can go unwillingly and say nothing for a few sessions, pretty sure any counselor working with kids has dealt with that before. Something is not working in your home and your family’s dynamics. I think you’ve posted about this a few times before and it doesn’t sound like you’re getting effective help. Your house is on fire and you are mopping the kitchen and wondering why it isn’t getting better.
Anonymous
so i’m not the mom who’s posted previously (i don’t think) re his obesity, and we’re absolutely waiting for a growth spurt, as well as giving grace for pandemic anxiety and other things we can’t control like brother’s disability. i go out of my way to not talk about his size but i can’t control what his father/grandparents/other kids say. he gets depressed bc it’s hard for him to run or bike or play with other kids. and he knows there are barely any clothes that fit now (too short for men’s clothes, too wide for the XXL husky sizes in kids.)
his father would punish by taking all candy, desserts, and treats away but i feel like it’s deeper than the food and am trying to address the emotions under it in a positive way, so thanks for the bitchy it’s-all-my-fault reply.
we allow a lot of sweets right now (300-600 calories a day, maybe, more on weekends, not counting sugary cereals) so stealing more is frustrating.
re journaling i thought CBT/journaling is the general answer for binge behavior? i’ve done a lot of journaling personally with “non-diet” diets and read books like Chasing Cupcakes. also re sleep i thought it would help stress/anxiety, as well as evening snacking during tv.
Anon
I think it’s good that you want to get ahead of this before it spirals into other addictions.
It sounds like there are emotional issues (feeling down about his size, possible food addiction) health issues (obesity) , and behavior issues (lying/stealing).
Emotional issues: He needs therapy and probably you need therapy too. He’s a kid, he doesn’t get to decide he doesn’t want to do therapy. Too bad.
Health issues:
– I’d recommend a dietician to help set nutrition goals, create meal plans to help achieve those goals, etc
– obviously it sounds like there need to be major changes to his diet and exercise habits, but the whole family should adopt these changes, rather than singling him out.
– I totally agree to allow some sweets so as to not create a forbidden fruit. But sweets don’t have to mean junk food, in my family growing up dessert was mostly fruit and actual sweets were rare. Get rid of most junk food in the house and have nuts/trail mix, string cheese, fruit, pretzels on hand for snacks/dessert. Encourage family dinner: make a healthy meal that everyone eats together at the table. Have balanced options for other meals too. Make exercise a family affair: family walk after dinner, family touch football game in the yard, etc. Make exercise fun so it feels like a fun activity rather than a punishment. You don’t need us to tell you that if he can’t keep up when playing with his friends this is not good.
Behavioral issues: handle the lying/stealing the way you’d handle lying about and stealing other things. Discuss why these are issues and unacceptable with him, and be very clear he’s being disciplined for the behavior and not for his size/the candy.
Anon
Also. Get rid of sugary cereal in the house! Replace it with healthier cereal or better breakfast options.
Telco Lady JD
“i go out of my way to not talk about his size but i can’t control what his father/grandparents/other kids say.”
Oh boy. You CAN control what his grandparents say – or at least whether he spends time with them. And the fact that his father is responding in a hurtful and unhelpful way is really a marriage problem that YOU DO need to deal with. I feel really bad for your kid. He needs someone on his side – and based on this….it’s not you.
Anon
I think the suggestion for family counseling is a great one. Clearly there’s a lot more going on than just his eating habits.
Anon
I grew up with a disabled sibling who needed a lot of care, time, and attention, and I felt a ton of pressure to be the “perfect” sibling who never needed anything. I also developed some coping mechanisms that weren’t healthy and I was very resistant to going to therapy at the time. Instead I’ve done a lot of therapy as an adult! Now I realize that I didn’t want to do therapy back then because admitting I needed help meant I wasn’t the “perfect” child anymore. Maybe this isn’t what your son is going through at all, but since you mentioned that your other child has a disability I thought it was worth bringing up. It might be a battle and it sounds like you are dealing with a lot right now, but I wish my parents had insisted on therapy for me when I was that age. Good luck to you and your family.
Anon
I think this is a great point, and another reason for the whole family to seek counseling, so they can address these types of issues and support each other.
Anon
I stand by everything I said and if my “bitchy reply” helps spur some action, then I’ll justify the means by the end. Because I think you are making a huge mistake by thinking that you, without being a child psychologist, a dietician, a nutritionist, or a behaviorist, are going to fix the problem on your own, by creating some kind of reward/punishment loop for your kid. I repeat: the whole family needs therapy. Everyone – your husband, you, and both of your kids. Your child is internalizing something happening within your family system that is making him act out in this way. The acting out will escalate until you find the trigger and address it. I recommend you do some reading about child psychology and then go talk to a child/adolescent therapist, by yourself, to lay out the situation and ask for advice. Hopefully that therapist can engage with your son and then with the family, to figure out patterns that are driving behavior. Completely agree that your son “refusing” therapy is a non-starter and the therapist should be used to kids coming in and refusing to talk. FWIW when I finally went to therapy as a teenager, I did the “I’m not participating in this” silent staredown with the therapist until she said something that made me realize – she gets it; she gets while I’m here. Therapists are trained in techniques to help kids feel safe and get them to open up. Therapy as an adolescent was life-changing for me and I am not sure I would be here without it, because I was substantially suicidal at the time I went. Your kid needs help and the stealing/binging is the cry for help. The next cry for help may be substantially escalated from this. Call someone, today.
Esquinkle
This is far and away the best answer. Some others made my jaw drop. I write as a child who stole sweets and hid them and experienced a lot of shame and resulting rebellion/depression that I’m still unpacking. I wasn’t overweight, but the messaging around food in my family was very harmful. The focus on ‘stealing’ is a red herring and you need to take a much bigger look at the root of this issue, OP.
Monday
No idea why someone thinks this is fake. This behavior absolutely happens, and can lead to more serious issues.
If this continues, it may be really out of his control, and counseling may need to be mandatory. Kids like choices, so you could say he can either see his own counselor, or do family therapy. I bet either one could be helpful.
Anonymous
I don’t think the idea of a kid’s stealing candy sounds fake. The mom’s description of the situation and her reaction sounds fake.
Anon
I would question the quality of the medical care he’s been receiving. Compulsive eating of sugar is a huge red flag for health issues. Check if he’s been thoroughly tested (not just A1C! glucose tolerance test, insulin, the works — many pediatricians drop the ball).
Anon
In addition to the other comments here, for a 12 year old child YOU can control what he eats, so YOU can help him lose weight. It is not totally in his hands.
Anon
+1
He’s young enough that you can control what he eats, how much screen time he has vs time playing outside etc. Get working on changing his eating/exercise habits now, while you can control it, so by the time he’s old enough to make these decisions for himself he has the baseline to make good choices.
And, apply these changes to the whole family. Everyone eats the same healthy meal at dinner. Everyone plays outside for an hour before getting any screen time. Everyone gives you sugary cereal for breakfast.
Lawsuited
Don’t start limiting food unless there is another emotional coping strategy in place *that is working* or you will force him to develop a new coping strategy on his own and it will almost definitely be worse than candy.
Anonymous
sounds like he has adhd. poor impulse control, binge eating, tells you no.
Anonymous
I’d assume that this was some form of emotional eating and that the stealing is a) a way to get the candy himself without having to ask you for it which probably brings about a shame response and b) comes with an additional endorphin hit from the accomplishment of procuring the candy he craves. People with emotional eating or any kind of disordered eating spend a huge amount of their time obsessing over food, so these candy bars may be a huge part of your kids inner world right now. At its core, emotional eating is a way for people to soothe their own negative emotions without involving another person, and particularly in the case of kids, food is often the most available self-soothing method for them. I doubt this behaviour will improve without dealing with the negative emotions that the behaviour involves. There are programs that focus on emotional eating so you could look into them and ask how they can support you given that your kid is unwilling to go (assuming your kid remains unwilling to see professionals).
Anon
You guys. I know we are probably over talking about stuff like this, but seriously my google search ability and trust is failing me.
I need a KN95 or somewhat equivalent (honestly I’m a little lost with all the various ratings, but just not a cloth mask and one that actually protects the wearer to some extent, if you recommend something I will trust you and don’t need the details) for a small face.
I currently have these https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B09B1XP5BH/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&th=1, but they are so big on my face they literally cut into my eye sockets when wearing so I have to fold down the top which clearly defeats the purpose. I tried wearing my kid’s versions and they are too small. Help me find the Goldilocks version? Thanks!!
Anonymous
https://bonafidemasks.com/powecom-kn95-sm-respirator-mask-10-masks-per-pack/
Shelle
+1 I wear these on my small face. The straps are a little tight on my ears but you could buy one of those ear saver extenders that go around the back of the head.
Anon
I love MaskC. Follow them on social media and you will get codes for 40-50% off regularly.
Anon
FWIW, MaskC is tight on me and my 13 y/o, so might work for someone with a small head!
Anon
FWIW, MaskC is tight on me and my 13 y/o, so might work for someone with a small head!
Cat
Private Stock Labs sells a smaller KN95 size that’s a great fit for my face.
Flats Only
I ordered these and they fit my small face very nicely. No digging into my eyes, but a nice tight seal. I do have to give the ear loops a good stretch before putting the mask on, but once I do that it’s comfortable.
Anonymous
Check Amazon Germany for cloth FFP2 masks. FFP2 is the European version of N95s (roughly). I was impressed with the quality and fit when I was on vacation there recently. Not Amazon Germany shops ship to USA but a decent amount do. I bought in a shop in person so I can’t recommend a specific online shop.
Anon
Wellbefore (which I learned about from someone on this board) has adult small masks that have been the perfect size for me. Regular adult is too big and kids is too small but these adult smalls are just right.
Anom
Greensupply.com. I use the adult small, DH the adult regular, my 9 year old the kids’ and my 6 yr old the mini.
Grace
‘rettes, I need a hug. A small arts advocacy organization I volunteer with was digitally attacked last night/today. Someone somehow got their hands on a list of staff/volunteer emails and has been sending out Very Bad Images – the kind that are illegal to have or look at. It’s not just a messed-up spambot, because they’re changing their subject lines to mimic the official organization mail saying not to open suspicious emails; we’re pretty sure this is someone acting with malice. I haven’t been hit yet, and I’ve filtered everything as thoroughly as I can and told that email account to not automatically load attached images, but it’s still awful. I knew there were people who had issues with our work, but this is far beyond what I ever imagined they do. I thought they’d just yell at us on Twitter when we ran donation drives. This is an actual nightmare.
The legal side of things is being handled by our staff lawyers, who’ve already contacted the authorities about it and given us instructions on what to do, and most of our volunteers are digital-only so this person has no access to home addresses; I’m not worried about that aspect of it. I’m just freaked out by realizing exactly how badly people hate us. What did we ever do to this person? What in the world do they think justifies this?
Curious
Ugh that is awful. I’m so sorry.
anonshmanon
I’m so sorry, Grace! Virtual hugs.
Anon
How horrifying. I feel naive that I never even considered that an arts advocacy organization could have enemies let alone enemies like this; I’m so sorry.
Coach Laura
I can’t imagine that level of hate. I’m sorry Grace.
Anonymous
I am the poster from yesterday who was concerned about an unwanted and dangerous pregnancy. I just want to thank those posters who so freely offered help to an internet stranger. It really warmed my heart and calmed my mind. Thank you.
I am going to be 100% okay, the timing just made the news of the court decision overwhelming. I have always wondered if there are volunteer organizations that provide “buddy” services for those getting an abortion, because patients need to be accompanied but telling someone can be very scary or actually dangerous.
Anon
I’m so glad you are ok! It is scary and lonely to be in that situation. I don’t understand why women want to demonize other women. Take care of yourselves and each other.
AnonATL
I believe PP and similar do offer escort services to clinics. Not only to support people beyond the protest lines but for other emotional support too while waiting for appointments
pugsnbourbon
There are abortion doulas out there. The clinic might have some resources.